Quick Druid - Wild Shape questions

[jaappleton]

The Wild Shape feature has two aspects of it that I'm having trouble figuring out. Or maybe it's just wishful thinking on my part.

"Equipment that merges with the form has no effect until you leave the form"
"You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source if the new form is fully capable of doing so"

So... For things like Bracers of Defense or Cloak of Protection, do you retain the bonus to AC while in Wild Shape? You're gaining the benefit from an 'other source', but I'm a little hazy on the 'equipment that merges', is it all aspects of the equipment or the physical mundane aspects of being able to wield it?

And a Warforged Druid always retains its bonus +1 to AC, even in Wild Shape, right?

[RickAllison]

The equipment rule trumps the "other source" rule. As for Warforged, I imagine that is dependent on how you and the DM handle his transformation. If the PC becomes a robotic, Warforged version of the beast a la Transformers, then it should work but he will not be able to pass for the creatures on close inspection without something like an illusion. If it is magically becoming that form and so being biological, you certainly couldn't benefit from it as you have lost the source.

[DivisibleByZero]

Bracers are equipment that merged with the form, so you gain no benefit and they stop working until you return to humanoid.
Warforged is going to be a DM call. My call would be no, because the Beast lacks the wood/metal plating which provides the warforged his AC bonus.

[jaappleton]

It's weird to me. Because magic items resize to fit your size. It's why magic armor works on Gnomes and Goliaths, right?

So.... Bracers SHOULD actually work. I don't think attunement requires you to be Humanoid. Only a Creature.

Also, I keep reading how it's the Druids choice how the equipment merges.

[Solunaris]

In the case of the magical items, if they merge with the Wild Shaped form they loss their ability to function since they only provide a benefit when worn. If the Druid decides not to have them merge with his form, then the DM decides if the items are appropriate for the new form to wear (and thus benefit from) or if the new form cannot wear them.

As for the Warforged, it's +1 to AC is a direct result of it's body being constructed out of special materials and not flesh. Since the new form gained by Wild Shape is not fully capable to receive the +1 to AC as a result of being constructed out of specific materials I'd argue that the Wild Shape shouldn't get said bonus.

If the DM wants to allow you to Wild Shape into a mechanical version of the animal instead of a flesh and blood version so that you can retain the AC bonus, that's cool. By RAW it is not an option, however.

[Finback]

So.... Bracers SHOULD actually work.

What about if you wild shape into a snake?

[RickAllison]

In the case of the magical items, if they merge with the Wild Shaped form they loss their ability to function since they only provide a benefit when worn. If the Druid decides not to have them merge with his form, then the DM decides if the items are appropriate for the new form to wear (and thus benefit from) or if the new form cannot wear them.

This is the key difference. If you have 8 rings, for example, it is conceivable that your Giant Octopus form can wear one on each arm (arms have suckers along length for grasping, tentacles just have them on the ends), but he is not likely to be wearing those Boots of Striding and Springing. The snek may be able to wear your hat and cloak, but he doesn't have hands for those gloves. A good general rule is that gloves and boots, being dependent on specific anatomy, will not work barring maybe a baboon form. Cloaks are pretty easy, but birds will likely not be able to wear them normally as I imagine they interfere with flight. Rings will work on many forms (tails, arms, etc.), but probably not on birds or fish/aquatic mammals with their thicker appendages.

[Tetrasodium]

under specific beats general they should resize. Your Gm should not be using that as cover for their choice to deny you something while wildshaped.

Spoiler: relevant wildshape bit

Show

You choose whether your equipment falls to the
ground in your space, merges into your new form, or
is w orn by it. Worn equipment functions as normal,
but the DM decides whether it is practical for the new
form to wear a piece of equipment, based on the crea-
ture’s shape and size. Your equipment doesn’t change
size or shape to match the new
form, and any equipment that
the new form can’t w ear must either fall to the ground or merge with it.Equipment that merges with the form has no effect until you leave the form

Choose to wear the bracers. If the gm wants to deny it based on "DM decides whether it is practical for the new form to wear a piece of equipment, based on the creature’s shape and size." they are welcome to say "I don't think a brown bear could wear bracers for a whole 12 instead of 11 ac"; but that's a sign that you should find a different gm or play another class if they do.

Under specific beats general, "magic items" also beat "equipment". when the rule explicitly says "DM decides if", there is no wiggle room for "but the rules says". The d&d folks have a habit of ignoring the "DM decides if" and inexcusably ruling on tenuous reasoning rather than a reasonable & logical ruling when asking if a gm can decide if a moon druid can use combat wildshape's hp recovery feature to heal up at a paladin rider if the gm lets the paladin find steed on the druid without actually using the D word so it's just a "corner case" the gm can decide if not explicitly stated.


see RickAllison's post for very reasonable reasons to deny magic items to a form

[blurneko]

I would rule that No, you do not get to keep your magical bracers and cloak in Wild Shape. All your equipment merges into your beast shape.

[xroads]

Choose to wear the bracers. If the gm wants to deny it based on "DM decides whether it is practical for the new form to wear a piece of equipment, based on the creature’s shape and size." they are welcome to say "I don't think a brown bear could wear bracers for a whole 12 instead of 11 ac"; but that's a sign that you should find a different gm or play another class if they do.

Since the items don't resize to match the new form, I think in most cases I would be inclined to argue the magic item doesn't fit the new form. For example, in the case of bracers, a bear's wrist is likely going to be noticeably bigger than a human's wrist.

However, certain magic items like rings would probably work just fine. And if the druid asks an ally to help put the magic items back on him once he shapeshifts, I could see that working fine. Albiet the latter would be more of an option for when the party is not in combat.

[KorvinStarmast]

I would rule that No, you do not get to keep your magical bracers and cloak in Wild Shape. All your equipment merges into your beast shape.

That's a fair ruling that also support the KISS Principle.

A. Shapeshift to Brown Bear.
B. Player simply uses Brown Bear stats, no need for fiddly bits.

Goodness.

[jaappleton]

You choose whether your equipment falls to the ground in your space, merges into your new form, or is worn by it. Worn equipment functions as normal, but the DM decides whether it is practical for the new form to wear a piece of equipment, based on the creature’s shape and size

------

That's the full wording from the book.

Since magic items resize... Would you still say that a Cloak of Protection doesn't work?

If no, what if it got it to be reflavored to being a choker or collar?

[Tanarii]

Since magic items resize... Would you still say that a Cloak of Protection doesn't work?

Since you're not re-attuning the items again (I assume), it's unlikely you're going to be resizing them on the fly while wild-shaping.

[Ursus the Grim]

under specific beats general they should resize. Your Gm should not be using that as cover for their choice to deny you something while wildshaped.

Spoiler: relevant wildshape bit

Show

Choose to wear the bracers. If the gm wants to deny it based on "DM decides whether it is practical for the new form to wear a piece of equipment, based on the creature’s shape and size." they are welcome to say "I don't think a brown bear could wear bracers for a whole 12 instead of 11 ac"; but that's a sign that you should find a different gm or play another class if they do.

That's a little extreme. If you're playing 5e, you have to accept that some things are just up to the DM. If the druid is going to quit a group because they couldn't get a +1 to AC, well, honestly, the group is probably better off without the druid.

I mean, as you might recall, I'm of the opinion that 'no metal armor' is a stupid rule, but I wouldn't quit a group over it. Or this.

Especially because when you first get Brown Bear its already ridiculously powerful without being 5% harder to hit than it should be.

Resizing: I think the catch is that the DMG generally assumes a regular, medium humanoid PC is going to be receiving these items. There aren't really any core rules for playing a Large or Larger or nonhumanoid PC. If a bear can wear bracers, why can't a snake slither into a pair and wear it like armor? My rule (and I play a lot of druids) is to ask the DM before I try to claim a magic item - 'hey, how will this resize when I shape?'. If its clear I'm going to have trouble using it, I pass on it and someone else gets it (the group still benefits.)

Sometimes you'll have an easier case. Example - a giant had been wearing a ring. Apparently the ring could resize to medium size, but I asked instead if it was possible to wear it as a collar - I figured the neck of a bear and the finger of a giant are much closer in size than the fingers of gnomes and giants. DM agreed on that particular instance.

Warforged: I was under the impression that 'anatomy-specific' traits did not carry over. For instance, a kobold would keep his Pack Tactics, but a Tabaxi would not retain their claws. I would imagine that your AC would not increase, unless your DM houseruled/homebrewed a robo-shape for you.

[jaappleton]

Warforged: I was under the impression that 'anatomy-specific' traits did not carry over. For instance, a kobold would keep his Pack Tactics, but a Tabaxi would not retain their claws. I would imagine that your AC would not increase, unless your DM houseruled/homebrewed a robo-shape for you.

I'm using Warforged as a basis. The character itself is a long-forgotten guardian, kind of like a golem, of the forest created by a Druidic circle. Warforged just happens to fit the bill better than anything else.

[DivisibleByZero]

Since the items don't resize to match the new form, I think in most cases I would be inclined to argue the magic item doesn't fit the new form. For example, in the case of bracers, a bear's wrist is likely going to be noticeably bigger than a human's wrist.

However, certain magic items like rings would probably work just fine. And if the druid asks an ally to help put the magic items back on him once he shapeshifts, I could see that working fine. Albiet the latter would be more of an option for when the party is not in combat.

Don't worry about arguing with Tet.
Any time someone even hints that a DM might possibly have some say over how his game is run Tet immediately cries foul and tells you to find a new DM or play a different class.

[RickAllison]

Don't worry about arguing with Tet.
Any time someone even hints that a DM might possibly have some say over how his game is run Tet immediately cries foul and tells you to find a new DM or play a different class.

As someone who is usually on the same "side" as Tetrasodium, this is pretty spot-on.

[LordVonDerp]

So... For things like Bracers of Defense or Cloak of Protection, do you retain the bonus to AC while in Wild Shape? You're gaining the benefit from an 'other source', but I'm a little hazy on the 'equipment that merges', is it all aspects of the equipment or the physical mundane aspects of being able to wield it?

As I understand it, the bonuses from such magic items comes from the magic, rather than the item itself, which would mean that you would still get the bonus.

And a Warforged Druid always retains its bonus +1 to AC, even in Wild Shape, right?

That's a racial bonus, so yes.

[DivisibleByZero]

As I understand it, the bonuses from such magic items comes from the magic, rather than the item itself, which would mean that you would still get the bonus.

That's a racial bonus, so yes.

• You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so. However, you can’t use any of your special senses, such as darkvision, unless your new form also has that sense.

If the new form is physically capable of doing so.
The new form is certainly not made of metal and wood, so whether he is physically capable of retaining that +1AC is going to be the DM's call.


• You choose whether your equipment falls to the ground in your space, merges into your new form, or is worn by it. Worn equipment functions as normal, but the DM decides whether it is practical for the new form to w ear a piece of equipment, based on the creature’s shape and size. Your equipment doesn’t change size or shape to match the new form, and any equipment that the new form can’t w ear must either fall to the ground or merge with it. Equipment that merges with the form has no effect until you leave the form.

This basically says: Ask your DM if you can wear your equipment or it if ceases to function, and he will give you an appropriate answer based on the form you've chosen.

[Tetrasodium]

Since you're not re-attuning the items again (I assume), it's unlikely you're going to be resizing them on the fly while wild-shaping.

Starting out, this is not directed at you specifically Tanarii, you were just quoted because you tried to give a reasonable reason

Spoiler: the full wildshape deets

Show

While you are transformed, the following rules apply:
• Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of
the beast, but you retain your alignment, personality,
and Intelligence, W isdom , and Charisma scores. You
also retain all of your skill and saving throw proficien-
cies, in addition to gaining those of the creature. If
the creature has the same proficiency as you and the
bonus in its stat block is higher than yours, use the
creature’s bonus instead of yours. If the creature has
any legendary or lair actions, you can't use them.
• W hen you transform, you assum e the beast’s hit
points and Hit Dice. W hen you revert to your norm al
form, you return to the number of hit points you had
before you transformed. However, if you revert as a
result of dropping to 0 hit points, any excess damage
carries over to your norm al form. For example, if you
take 10 damage in animal form and have only 1 hit
point left, you revert and take 9 damage. A s long as
the excess damage doesn’t reduce your normal form
to 0 hit points, you aren’t knocked unconscious.
• You can’t cast spells, and your ability to speak or
take any action that requires hands is limited to the
capabilities of your beast form. Transforming doesn’t
break your concentration on a spell you’ve already
cast, however, or prevent you from taking actions that
are part of a spell, such as call lightning, that you’ve
already cast.
• You retain the benefit of any features from your class,
race, or other sourceand can use them if the new
form is physically capable of doing so. However, you
can’t use any o f your special senses, such as darkvi-
sion, unless your new form also has that sense.
• You choose whether your equipment falls to the
ground in your space, m erges into your new form, or
is w orn by it. W orn equipment functions as normal,
but the DM decides whether it is practical for the new
form to w ear a piece of equipment, based on the crea-
ture’s shape and size. Your equipment doesn’t change
size or shape to match the new
form, and any equipment that
the new form can’t w ear
must either fall to the
ground or merge with it.
Equipment that merges
with the form has no
effect until you leave
the form.

Spoiler: Magic item deets

Show

WEARING AND WIELDING ITEMS
Using a magic item's properties might mean wearing
or wielding it. A magic item meant to be worn must be
donned in the intended fashion: boots go on the feet,
gloves on the hands, hats and helmets on the head, and
rings on the finger. Magic armor must be donned, a
shield strapped to the arm, a cloak fastened about the
shoulders. A weapon must be held in hand.
In most cases, a magic item that's meant to be worn
can fit a creature regardless of size or build. Many
magic garments are made to be easily adjustable, or the:
magically adjust themselves to the wearer.
Rare exceptions exist. If the story suggests a good
reason for an item to fit only creatures of a certain
size or shape, you can rule that it doesn't adjust. For
example, armor made by the drow might fit elves only.

Spoiler: specific beats general

Show

S p e c i f i c B e a t s G e n e r a l
This book contains rules, especially in parts 2 and 3,
that govern how the game plays. That said, many racial
traits, class features, spells, magic items, monster
abilities, and other game elements break the general rules in
some way, creating an exception to how the rest o f the
game works. Remember this: If a specific rule
contradicts a general rule, the specific rule wins.

Exceptions to the rules are often minor. For instance,
many adventurers don’t have proficiency with longbows,
but every w ood elf does because of a racial trait. That
trait creates a minor exception in the game. Other
exam ples of rule-breaking are more conspicuous. For
instance, an adventurer can’t normally pass through
walls, but some spells make that possible. Magic
accounts for most o f the major exceptions to the rules.

• Many class abilities, magic items, & more create rules exceptions. When conflict exists, the more specific one wins.
• alignment, personality, int/wis/cha scores, skill & saving throw proficiencies,
• If the creature has a magic item equivalent such as a lair or legendary action, you do not get it.
• You maintain concentration on any spells you are already concentrating on & can continue to perform actions related to them such as call lightning's strike.
• Your ability to speak or do things that requires hands is limited based on the form of the creature
• You can not use any of your special senses (such as darkvision) unless the new form also has that sense.
• "You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so."
• "Magic item" is unquestionably more specific than the general term "equipment" & thus overrides "equipment" when there is a conflict in the text.
• "a magic item that's meant to be worn can fit a creature regardless of size or build."
• " Many magic garments are made to be easily adjustable, or they magically adjust themselves to the wearer.". While it does give an example of armor made by drow only fitting elves, druid is not a racially restricted class & there exists druids of "all races"...
  
  so the only reason that elf only magic armor would not resize/easily adjust for an elf druid to a common druid form like a bear would pretty much be if it was metal armor.
• There are magic items that do not do that, but those exceptions are rare to the already uncommon/rare/very rare magic items. That ring of protection might be worn like an ear ring by a cave bear, but wearing a giant's ring like a bracelet is reasonable enough that I'm pretty much certain that there have been magic items like that giant's ring in past editions making it a not very radical possibility
• While a web of rules like this being used to prove a point is usually an immediate indication that punpun territory is being approached, the lengths to which certain people have shown themselves willing to ignore "DM decides whether it is practical for the new form to wear a piece of equipment " & jump straight to "nope my hands are tied, rules say no" makes the full collection of relevant rules a reasonable presentation to dismiss the bias
• Don't think people take it too far?... how about suggesting that wildshape nullifies a curse rather than allowing a wildshaped druid to benefit from the curse with or without the resistance effect on a shield of missile attraction?... If that's not enough of an example of lazy gone too far to avoid "well it says dm decides if & I decide no", a house rule along the lines of "I find druids disruptive & would prefer you not play one in my games" may be in order.

[DivisibleByZero]

"Magic item" is unquestionably more specific than the general term "equipment" & thus overrides "equipment" when there is a conflict in the text.

This is why you're wrong.
Because, yes, specific beats general.
But no, "magic item" is not more specific than "equipment."

Specific beats general does apply, but in this case:
General = worn magic items change size/shape
Specific = Druid Wild Shape overrides that and these no longer change shape

The Wild Shape forms are designed to be played straight from the MM stat blocks, and that's why equipment generally ceases to function.

[Tetrasodium]

That's a little extreme. If you're playing 5e, you have to accept that some things are just up to the DM. If the druid is going to quit a group because they couldn't get a +1 to AC, well, honestly, the group is probably better off without the druid.

I completely agree, & that's why I also say that you should play another class as the other option. While the specific example is 5% harder to hit yes, A CR1/4 zombiehas +3 to hit, a cr1/4 goblin has +4 to hit. A brown bear has 11 ac. That +1 ac is the difference between getting hit on anything better than 6-7 & >7-8. You also gloss over the fact that a moon druid will be using that brown bear until level 6 when +4-+5 or more ToHit from monsters is pretty common & dropping it the difference between ~75% chance of being hit & 70% chance

This is why you're wrong.
Because, yes, specific beats general.
But no, "magic item" is not more specific than "equipment."

Specific beats general does apply, but in this case:
General = worn magic items change size/shape
Specific = Druid Wild Shape overrides that and these no longer change shape

The Wild Shape forms are designed to be played straight from the MM stat blocks, and that's why equipment generally ceases to function.

thieve's tools, a backpack/pouch, a nonmagic set of armor, a magic set of armor, a torch, a waterskin, an hourglass, a ladder, rope, & more are equipment.

While "equipment" does indeed contain a "magic item", the "magic item" is a specific thing with specific rules of its own that does not apply to the rest of the stuff that the general term "equipment" can include.

[DivisibleByZero]

LOL, he didn't mean because the druid should play a different class.
He meant: That druid? I hope he never shows up here again.
If he is considering rage-quitting over 1AC, then good riddance, and don't let the door hit you on the way out.

[nickl_2000]

...If he is considering rage-quitting over 1AC, then good riddance, and don't let the door hit you on the way out.

I think someone who rage quits over that should probably be playing a barbarian, it would be a way easier class for them to roleplay

[jaappleton]

Who the hell said anything about me rage quitting over whether or not a Dire Wolf can wear a Cloak of Protection?

[DivisibleByZero]

Who the hell said anything about me rage quitting over whether or not a Dire Wolf can wear a Cloak of Protection?

No one said anything about you rage quitting. But someone did indeed say that this topic might be worthy of finding a new DM, which amounts to the same thing.

[SilverStud]

I'm pretty sure that the "magic items meant to be worn resize to fit the wearer" is a general rule, and "the DM decides if your Wildshape can wear it" is a specific rule. I think this because the former statement applies to all magic items that are meant to be worn (with exceptions), while the latter rule applies only to Druid Wildshapes.

So by the argument of "specific trumps general," "DM chooses whether they fit" is the winner.

EDIT: I took so long to write this post it doesn't even count as being ninja'd......

[Tetrasodium]

Who the hell said anything about me rage quitting over whether or not a Dire Wolf can wear a Cloak of Protection?

Nobody, DBZ & a few others just have a habit of making a partial out of context quote/paraphrase & blowing it up through repeated back & forth into something wildly unreasonable never even hinted at by playing the telephone game among themselves rather than admit things that take responsibility like "as the GM I choose not to allow it" (Which they are explicitly allowed to do without even using a house rule) or discuss the actual rules they are hiding their deliberate choice behind.

The simple fact is that it's easier to cloak yourself in complaining about "rage quit" & eventually telephone game it into flipping the table over & decking the gm over time. Plus, I think there is plenty of evidence that a dire wolf could indeed wear a cloak of protection & more

I'm pretty sure that the "magic items meant to be worn resize to fit the wearer" is a general rule, and "the DM decides if your Wildshape can wear it" is a specific rule. I think this because the former statement applies to all magic items that are meant to be worn (with exceptions), while the latter rule applies only to Druid Wildshapes.

So by the argument of "specific trumps general," "DM chooses whether they fit" is the winner.

EDIT: I took so long to write this post it doesn't even count as being ninja'd......

Yea, It's pretty obnoxious the lengths that people will go to in order for them to avoid responsibility for choosing well within their rights to use the simple very specific "DM decides if.." override of just about anything related to wildshape wearing stuff.

[LordVonDerp]

• You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so.

Every creature is capable of having an AC.

If the new form is physically capable of doing so.
The new form is certainly not made of metal and wood, so whether he is physically capable of retaining that +1AC is going to be the DM's call.

It certainly COULD be made of metal and wood. It worked for the T-800.

[DivisibleByZero]

It worked for the T-800.

Is the T-800 a beast?

As to Tet:
I'm not the one that said he should find a new DM.
That was you. That amounts to rage-quitting.
No one is taking anything out of context. This is your thing, as even Rick agrees. At the slightest notion that a DM has any say over how his own game will be played, you tell people to find a new DM. You tell people to rage-quit.
None of that is out of context. Not only is it perfectly in context, you have already done it in this thread.