OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread

[Iago]

He'll get over it. Kubota was mudering his friends.

I dunno... classic idealist heros like Spider-Man and Captain America never did get along with more, uh, efficient heros like the Punisher or Wolverine. Or the Superman-Batman relationship if you're a DC fan. Cue tvtrope links to the following: Antihero, Joker Immunity, Why Don't Ya Just Shoot Him, Kill Him Already, and What The Hell Hero.

But consider this: Elan, despite all his willingness to kill Kubota during his pursuit (Gosh, it's a good thing I'm not the one in heavy armor), nonetheless accepted the surrender of an unarmed scumbag.

V, however, snuffed the aforementioned scumbag like a candle flame AFTER he was tied up and not an IMMEDIATE threat (though at least a probable future one). Whether V did so to prevent him being a potential future danger, or whether V is simply sick and tired of being sick and tired, is yet to be made clear.

[kunou126]

Detect Evil is not infalliable - as when Miko detected Roy as evil - so killing someone just because they detect as evil is not acceptable to most versions of Lawful Good - it is closer to Lawful Neutral.

The act itself cannot be qalified within one of the nine alignments without considering the motive of the character and the surrounding circumstances.

Kubota was killed purely out of pragmatism and frustration. V determined it to be the shortest means to the best possible outcome. Hate, greed, jealousy, and other evil motivators were not involved. It was a logical decision. Failing to dispatch him and letting the thing go to trial would have tied the party up for months and potentially let the villain off the hook. V tied up all the lose ends with 2 simple spells and finished it all in 12 seconds.

Given the nature of V, his/her motivations, and the surrounding circumstances, this was clearly the action of a True Neutral or a Chaotic Neutral being.

[Supagoof]

The only way that could be more awesome, is if Elan's blank look went to a smile and then he hugged V.

For saving him the headache.
For doing what he couldn't do.
For setting the focus back to where it needs to be, on stopping Xykon and saving the world.

Like a saying from a wildly popular show that started it's new season last night.

Kill Kubota. Save the world.

I always like V from when she tortured Belkar for nothing more then his/her own experimentation and amusement, but this is a raw slapdown. As for allignment purposes - if it's evil - who cares? V has never had to justify his/her actions, and up to this point I've seen no indication that V cares which side s/he alligns on.

As for whether or not V had the spell slots - remember that while fighting the demon V's focus was on getting pass the saves, not whether or not V had enough spells. V could have easily had enough to continue attacking the demon, but the focus was on using the spells that could get pass the saving throw.

Awesome. Just when I thought that Miko losing her paladin-ship couldn't be topped, the Giant manages to flex his wits and entertain us all with something this brilliant. Bravo Rich. Bravo!

[Vectner]

H. S. s/he did it! Guess all you who said this would happen were right. I feel bad for Elan though, he didn't get the satisfaction of killing him himself.

[Jaysyn]

A very good strip, but just something I couldn't help but notice: V was directly behind Elan. That means that when he landed on the boat, he would've been directly in Kubota's line of sight, and would've been spotted even if Kubota was looking at Elan and not paying that much attention. Surely he would've noticed an elf wizard in reddish robes with purple hair standing more or less in front of him and charging up a Disintegrate spell. Just makes me wonder why there was no indication in the comic of Kubota noticing anyone there, since logically I can't help but think Kubota should've seen V coming.

Invisibility is a 2nd level spell that would have broken by the time V came on "screen".

[Starbuck_II]

Redcloak could see the error of his ways and reform; he will immediately no longer be evil, although he could still deserve punishment for his past actions. Belkar was probably evil even before he met his first victim.

Another way to look at it is that otherwise, there could never be stuff like level 1 Paladins of Tyranny, since they'd have no way of being evil in time to qualify for the class.

Um, Fractal: Red Cloak does know he is doing evil. But he killed his own brother to get this far; do you think he can really reform? He believes he can't go back now.

[Jaysyn]

Lois Lane gave her life so that the Joker be captured. She revealed herself so the Joker wouldn't get away. Magog killing him made her sacrifice a waste. Read the novelization by Maggin. Oh, and Magog's zeal for justice atomized Kansas.

Oh, and again, Elan is Lawful Good. What is V going to do to make sure he doesn't talk? Hm?

There's the quick and easy way, which always gets people in trouble.

Bard's can't be Lawful.

[Jaysyn]

No, EVERYONE will assume he did it. He's the PRIME SUSPECT.

(Furthermore, apparently, aristocrats can hide from magic truth-telling. They'd assume Hinjo has the same ability. There's about a million ways to hide your alignment, etc in D&D.)

Show me a single standard class or prestige class that lets you commit evil acts & Lay on Hands in the same 4 hour span.

You can't do it.

[Zolem]

The act itself cannot be qalified within one of the nine alignments without considering the motive of the character and the surrounding circumstances.

Kubota was killed purely out of pragmatism and frustration. V determined it to be the shortest means to the best possible outcome. Hate, greed, jealousy, and other evil motivators were not involved. It was a logical decision. Failing to dispatch him and letting the thing go to trial would have tied the party up for months and potentially let the villain off the hook. V tied up all the lose ends with 2 simple spells and finished it all in 12 seconds.

Given the nature of V, his/her motivations, and the surrounding circumstances, this was clearly the action of a True Neutral or a Chaotic Neutral being.

Except now V, my new least favorite charectr, is going to go on trial for murdering an inocent man, as the Law (at least where I am) states that you cannot pass trial on a dead man. I assume the Paladins have a similar law. As such, Kabuto may have been guilty, but he was never convicted or even formaly charged for that matter. V is going to be guilty of murder and she's the one who's going to go on trial, and possibly cause the unity of the fleet to disentigrate (irony), resulting in the almost guranteed doom of the entire Azurite people. And then she won't care, and Durkon and Elan will abandon her, and she deserves it. I may have hated Kubota, but I still wanted him to be done in by his own hand, not Deus Ex Machina.

[hikari]

V is male, iirc.

I think V is also now my second favourite character from a RPG/fantasy themed comic.

[Kaytara]

This reminds me of something.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0420.html

Yeah, well, you probably shouldn't have discussed how you're going to beat the system in front of the guy charged with upholding the system. I still get to make Listen checks when I'm three feet away, you know.

Vaarsuvius may not have been literally charged with upholding the law, but he seems to have actually taken responsibility for overcoming their current problems in a way that doesn't involve abandoning their friends. There's nobody who takes this quest more seriously than V. Durkon comes close, but doesn't do much about it.

Kubota is someone Vaarsuvius knows has been responsible for countless attacks on the fleet, countless civilian deaths and lost ships, and most recently, the summoning of a devil that had very nearly finished them off, had it not been for a lucky roll on Prismatic Spray. And now, Vaarsuvius arrives on the scene to see Kubota ranting about how he'll go free no matter what the heroes do, and will eventually get them - and their little dog too. How he has surrendered in name only and the heroes' foolish sense of honour is only a stepstone on his path to villainy.

Vaarsuvius did pretty much the only sensible thing under the circumstances - he realised that, indeed, handling the bastard with kid gloves of honour won't get them anywhere, and therefore an alternative course must be taken. It's not evil as much as anti-hero-esque. If anything, it reminds me of the famous scene in Firefly where Mal kicks an 'uncooperative' mook through the engine to nip that little vendetta at the bud.

And I think Elan's reaction is more shock than horror... He was ready to chop Kubota into bloody pieces when he jumped onto that boat and was clearly both frustrated and outraged when his heroic principles forbade him from killing a man on his knees... Even if the man knows exactly what he's doing and is already planning to exploit your 'weakness' and stab you in the back. Therefore, Vaarsuvius' swift solution to the problem shook him heavily. I expect the next strip will show Elan trying to reprimand V and the elf explaining with cold and flawless logic exactly why Kubota had to die.

[LordSintax]

and yet again, V just keeps pouring on the awesome.

[RandomLogic]

Excellent! *@#$ Yeah. Just... *#@$ yeah.

That needed to be done.

[brilliantlight]

Lois Lane gave her life so that the Joker be captured. She revealed herself so the Joker wouldn't get away. Magog killing him made her sacrifice a waste. Read the novelization by Maggin. Oh, and Magog's zeal for justice atomized Kansas.

Oh, and again, Elan is Lawful Good. What is V going to do to make sure he doesn't talk? Hm?

There's the quick and easy way, which always gets people in trouble.

Elan is CG not LG. A bard can't be LG.

[Prowl]

Due process IS important, so important for a good aligned character that Elan, a Chaotic Good person stays his hands when he could easily kill Kubota and get away with it. In Elan's mind Kobuta in a bad person that needs to be judged and sentenced by his peers, fairly.

This is typical of the misguidedness of this thread. A Chaotic person virtually by definition is disinterested in following proper procedure. Being 'judged and sentenced by one's peers' is something that a Lawful person, not a Chaotic one, would find important. A Chaotic Good person should have contempt for any process an evil wrongdoer could use to escape punishment for his evil acts.

[brilliantlight]

The act could easily fall into CG territory. There is a bad guy. This bad guy has recently been elaborating about how he's going to escape trial and almost certainly kill more innocents. You know disentegrate. Therefore, the right thing to do is to kill the bad guy now before more innocents die. We don't know what V's reasoning was, exactly, except that s/he wants to go back to saving the world, however, so whether or not this is a sign of V's growing insanity is anyone's guess.

Agreed, we are talking about someone who will murder their own henchmen and who brags how he will get away with it. Killing him might well be the only reasonable thing to do to him.

[EvilElitest]

So is Indiana Jones evil? He had the drop on the swordman in RotLA, but shot him down in cold blood. Sure the victim was armed, but a sword vs. a revolver is like being unarmed, right?
Yet that scene received the loudest cheers in the theater.
Maybe we should just relax?

He hadn't surrendered and was trying to kill him, no deal

Eh, one needs to keep in mind that "good" and "evil" are essentially broad categorizations. It really doesn't recommend the most advisable course of action, but simply reflects the kind of general morality a character thinks would serve best.

Not in D&D, good and evil are stated as objective

The act was evil. Whether or not it was murder, justifiable homocide, or any other synonym for "the blasty end went into the bad guy, and -POOF-, no bad guy," killing a surrendered prisoner is clearly evil. But V is not a Paladin, so big whoo. V isn't even good aligned, as we saw in the dirt farmer side-story (I'm sure there were other examples, but that for me was the clearest). He's not going to have a minute's trouble going into trance over Kabuto.

true. I'm not saying the act act was out of character, it makes perfect sense, just that it isn't good

What am I evading? You say that V's actions are evil because the BoED says murder is always evil, but you choose to ignore other things from the exact same "always evil" list because you think their inclusion is stupid. In other words, you're basing the entire argument off of your subjective interpretation of which parts of that list should be on there and which shouldn't.

because your trying to disprove something because it doesn't support your argument. Subjective interpretation? There is a whole section on mercy another on taking prisoners. nitpicking at flaws is like me saying the PHB's aligniment section is irrelevant because of the stupid diplomacy rules

No, its word is law when it suits your argument. And it's 3.0 anyway.

Why wouldn't it be law? The book makes it clear. SO basically, it doesn't apply, because you don't want it to apply

I'm sorry, can you give me a comic number where V claimed to support the cause of Good? And I'm reasonably certain that V wouldn't have been hiding under his/her bed if Kubota had been armed and charging. Cowardice is rhetoric thrown around too often these days.

1) Working with OOTs, saving the world ect. she isn't good herself, but using the methods of your enemies is an example of becoming what you fight
2) of course its cowardly, because killing a man who not only can't fight back and is helpless, but also willingly put his life in your hands is simply craven. It isn't respect for life (good) nor is it honorable, its an act of evil

Actually, I'm pretty sure the murder happened to save the hundreds of lives that would be lost if Kubota used his trial to incite a civil war. And I think it was pretty well established that Kubota would have walked.

1) Well established. You have his bragging/goading. That isn't well established. What your proposing is giving up before even trying, and accepting murder as the only answer and that is not in the nature of good
2) And even then, murder is not the only solution to the problem. By committing evil, you give into evil and hand them a victory

THe difference here is that V wasn't killing him out of revenge, he was killing him because, y'know, he was going to deliberately cause the deaths of innocents, and Hinjo and Elan wouldn't stop Kubota.

1) But he hadn't caused the death of innocents and had still surrendered, and thus a prisoner. When one surrendereds, it is the duty of good, to put themselves above their enemies and honor their enemies surrender, other wise they are simply murderous brutes hiding behind a shield
2) Why wouldn't they? Are you saying you have 100% absolute proof he would win? No, you have his bragging.

Kubota mentioned he was detect-proof

against hte spell "detect lies" not against being charged guilty

Clearly, after confessing to the full extent of his villainous crimes, Lord Kubota opted for honorable suicide. For indeed, annoying a powerful wizard who prepared Disintegrate and Gust of Wind that morning is a very straightforward means of committing suicide.

um, i think he needs to make that clear. Assisting suicide isn't evil, (as suicide isn't evil) but murder is, and we never clearly defined that. Nice interpretation through

I do not play D&D. So, my knowledge would be negligible. But I think someone mentioned spells like Raise Dead, Speak With Dead and so on. If Kubota is planning to lie through the detection, surely the other methods would still work. Doesn't Sense Motive help? Old-Fashioned Detective Work (lack of poison on Therkla's person, why the heck Kubota carries this with him everywhere, motive), Oracles/Scrying, Summon Qarr and what-not. Interrogating the accused doesn't seem like the sort-of thing that would get the most convictions anyway. The arguments justifying murder don't really stick because there were alternate things you could do between now and then. Even I WANTED to see Kubota punished but we're not animals, we should be able to draw the line between what we want and what we should do.

QFT

Elfey, i'm a little confused on what your saying actually? Could you repeat that.

Precisely.

EVERY character in Order of the Stick is a serial murderer by the standards of "modern law". Well, save maybe Elan... So, the fact that V murdered someone by the standards of "modern law" is irrelevant unless you judge the entire world by them. Don't even try a "it's war" because it's a war on "EVIL" and guess who was clearly evil? It amounts to breaking the Geneva Convention.

'
wrong. Other than Belkar. The OOTS may have killed a lot of people, but every time that was in defense of themselves or others, where there enemies did not surrender or beg for mercy. That is essentually, just killing (neutral act) rather than murder (evil act)

If a paladin can ambush-murder an innocent goblin child and that is not 'evil' in D&D terms, then slaying Kubota - a very guilty party - in this circumstance cannot be considered 'evil' either.

Both SoD and the main comic have made it abundantly clear - there is nothing 'evil' about killing an evil creature. That it does not comport with modern ideas about due process is irrelevant.

1) SoD is shown for a bias perspective (redcloaks) we can't act upon it until we know more
2) Simply being evil is not a crime. If MIko has killed belkar back then, she would have fallen

Besides, Kubota surrendered in only the most Lawful interpretation of his behavior. Even at the point of a sword, even tied as a prisoner, even in the face of individuals who unquestionably knew he was a murderer, and worse - he was still issuing threats. To call him 'unarmed' is false; he was armed with the laws of the Azurites and he continued to wield them up to the moment of his death.

1) Surrender rules are a matter of good, not law/chaos
2) Unarmed? Certainly, he was phyically helpless. That doesn't justify killing. Now you can still attack him in non volient ways, getting him arrested ect.

Yeah.. I think the people talking against V are all flippin' crazy. All this talk about Kubota being killed in cold blood because he's an unarmed prisoner or whatever... He has a very long history of undermining lawful government for his own gain. V's alignment has never been made known, but this was definitely not an evil act. V appeared to take no pleasure in the situation, nor did he/she do it on a whim. Vaarsuvius did it because he had it coming and it was time for the story to move out of this boring lull.

THis was an evil act, because killing an unarmed defenseless prisoner, regardless of his possible threat, is always evil. V is a neutral wizards, so it doesn't make much of a difference, but it is still evil

Azure city, pre-fall, used to summon celestial beings for imparting judgement; these beings, the literal embodiment of law and good, could dish out capital punishment.

Depends on the beings. We have not seen a "True" good judge yet, only an illusion. An exalted being (IE Angel) would find another fitting punishiment to keep him out of trouble. But a society that does kill him won't become evil for it, if he is properly executed

Please do not reply to this post. I am not interested in discussing with you.

Oh and let you get the last word. No. If your not interested in dicussion, don't post honestly

Ah, but if you are sworn to uphold the law, do you serve it by putting the man in a position to violate it?

Not an argument for a LG to use, but I'd accept it from a NG or CG just fine.

The only argument against THAT is whether or not Kubota deserves death. And let's face it: I *dare* someone to justify his actions in a way that makes execution in the face of his probable "innocent" finding a good thing.

1) As murder is always evil in D&D, your arguement holds no weight
2) Yeah, i do. Death is not the only solution . Just because he is evil and guilty, does not mean we need to solve things through killing, which is not what good in D&D stands for

from
EE

[bue52]

I know many people argue that V was doing it because it was the most practical thing to do, however, I think it may actually be frustration towards Kubota, that made V do what she did, somehow, I find it hard to believe that her reasoning abilities are at their prime right now.

[okpokalypse]

There is no way V is getting away without a charge of murder for this one, killing a noble in (apparently) cold blood will certainly not be a crime he can dodge.

V is definitely getting way too obsessed with solving his communication puzzle.

V's fine. He confessed before V's actions, and even stated how he'd thwart the legal system. It may not be the Azure City way of doing things, but V's not a citizen of Azure City, and likely not overly Lawful either...

Personally, I hate the Lawful / Chaotic discussions. I used to love them and then came to a realization... The ideas of Law and Chaos are extremely subjective as a single act can be both lawful and chaotic based on someone's perceptions...

People who tend towards the left-end of lawfulness IRL will assume the concept of Lawfulness is broken whenever something happens they disagree with. They also tend to push their own concept of what lawfulness is on others - very similar to political leftism.

People who tends towards the right end of chaotic IRL will lawyer their way out of normally lawful concepts via tangents and circumstances - akin to defense attorneys ;).

Looking at V's act in the mind of the left ended alignments: V broke the law. The target was subdued and being taken in and the killing was a vigilante murder in cold blood. The laws of Azure City, in which V is currently within a province of, should apply.

Looking at V's act in the mind of the right ended alignments: V heard the rant and knew that this person would thwart the law, thus he acted pre-emptively, in light of possible future self-defense, and killed the evil-doer.

In my own opinion, it's fine for any alignment when viewed in moderation. Remember one basic facet of the game: In the D&D Universe, killing something you _know_ is evil is never considered an evil act unless it involvs pleasure, torture, evil descriptor magic, demon summoning, etc.. - which V did not employ. He just dusted him. Quick, Painless, Effective.

[brilliantlight]

Future evil? Who are you, the Oracle? Are we going to start executing people because they SAY or MIGHT perform an evil act?

And there is a "Good" option. Only evil people claim there isn't.

When the person in question has proven to be able and willing to back up that talk and is perfectly capable of rigging the trial it is at worst neutral.

[EvilElitest]

Bwuh?

Killing can easily be Good. If an Orc surrenders to a my ranger then flat-out admits that he can escape prison and go back to pillaging the countryside, how is it an EVIL act to kill him? Because his hands are bound by rope?

It is because talking about evil is not a crime. If he does escape, then kill him, but simply talking about it isn't a crime

Good and Evil are purposes. Good is not pacifism. Good is not kindness. Good is not polite. Good is not even remotely Lawful. Good is what is best for the innocent.

Your not going to back that up are you? Good is about kindness forgivness, compassion, mercy, understanding. Good can kill, but not when it can be avoided

In some cases, what is best for the innocent is the death of one who is guilty. Regardless of the circumstances. The only difference between what V did and a lawfully sentenced hanging is the courts, not whether the act was Good or Evil. Just because a bunch of stuffy guys in robes give the okay, murdering a prisoner doesn't become okay. By your logic, a death sentence is just murdering a prisoner and thus, an evil act.

In D&D ends don't justify the means in term of good

Doesn't fit, does it?

As a justification to abandon all moral principals. Yeah, go hypocrisy
from
EE

[RedWizard]

Why do you keep talking about "crimes?" You can be a criminal and be Good. You can obey the law (even write or dictate the law) and be Evil. This is explicitly true.

Due process and law are Lawful traits, not Good ones.

[EvilElitest]

Why do you keep talking about "crimes?" You can be a criminal and be Good. You can obey the law (even write or dictate the law) and be Evil. This is explicitly true.

Due process and law are Lawful traits, not Good ones.

i'm talking about evil acts, IE crimes against good, not crimes against a society, the latter which are totally subjective
from
EE

[sihnfahl]

As such, Kabuto may have been guilty, but he was never convicted or even formaly charged for that matter.

However, a dead man can still be investigated and have all the misdeeds he perpetrated in life brought to light, exposing co-conspirators.

V is going to be guilty of murder and she's the one who's going to go on trial, and possibly cause the unity of the fleet to disentigrate (irony)

Not really. V has made it clear shi's an Independent Agent. No matter what everyone else wanted V to do, V did what shi wanted to do (because, after all, V's more intelligent and ... practical ... than the rest). So it wouldn't reflect badly on Hinjo if Hinjo castigated V for hir actions (that is, if he actually finds out what V did...) It's only reflect badly on Hinjo if he finds out and turns a blind eye to V's actions.

A trial will only happen if Hinjo finds out.

And good luck stopping V from leaving if shi wants. Nobody has enough juice in the fleet to stand up to V, and they have no way of nullifying V's escape spells.

And then she won't care, and Durkon and Elan will abandon her, and she deserves it. I may have hated Kubota, but I still wanted him to be done in by his own hand, not Deus Ex Machina.

V's hardly a Deus Ex Machina. A deus ex machina is an improbable event designed to get around a plot hole so big that normal solutions cannot work.

There's nothing improbable about V, who's already been shown to capable of casting disintegrate and choosing expediency on occasion, would, when hearing a second-string villain's monologue, decide to just off him.

And deus ex machinas solve all the problems neatly. This only stops Kubota; there are other nobles, probably just as ruthless, waiting in the wings. And V will have to answer to Hinjo if Hinjo finds out. And Elan's going to flip. DEMs don't cause problems...

And Durkon is going to be annoyed; he's in a bit of a spot, however. He's got good wis, but not so much int. He doesn't seem to know where to start the search for Haley and Roy. He still needs V.

And Elan's ... well, Elan.

[Duric]

21 pages with reactions. Good episode indeed. But I guess that nearly noone is going to read it all.

[Kaytara]

snip

EvilElitest, it seems to me that all of your arguments can be roughly summed up as 'killing a defenseless men is ALWAYS evil, regardless of the circumstances'. Indeed, you pretty much said that yourself.

I find myself in strong disagreement with that kind of radical thinking. Circumstances DO matter. The problem, in part, stems from our attempts to define things that naturally defy definition. For example, how do you define defenseless? Simply unarmed? So what if Kubota isn't wielding a knife or a sword? His has different weapons at his disposal, and I'm not even talking about the poison ring, which, as far as Elan knows, might still be a threat. However, Kubota is really armed to the teeth with his guile, cunning and ability to evade and dodge through legal loopholes, so much that he doesn't even bother concealing it from his enemies and deliberately rubs it in.

If it's a man with a gun threatening to shoot you, any action against that man can be justified as a pre-emptive strike or simply self-defense.

If it's a man who can twist the laws and is threatening to use them against to discredit and kill you, any action against that man is also self-defense.

Kubota was armed and dangerous all right, he simply had weapons of a different kind.

Also, I think you should drop the extremes. Things are never as simple as just 'that man you killed was unarmed, therefore you're a murderer!!!' and there is, IMO, nothing more foolish than having such categorical notions, if only because they simply aren't applicable in practical situations and are therefore little better than having no notions at all.

[Weiser_Cain]

Kudos. Being a soulless automaton I rarely react to a comic let alone laugh aloud, but this one earned it.

[LordVader]

'Disintegrate.' 'Gust of Wind.' That's four words. Perhaps this is the path to ultimate power?

This is a very, very good point...maybe something to look into, maybe harmless.

Did NOT see this coming, but it is an interesting end, although I can't see the Azurites not demanding repercussions for this.


I agree with people who say this is not a crime, Kubota is a muderer and a sadist (it seems), he was also planning to cause untold chaos and quite possibly doom the remaining population on the ships for his own selfish goals. While he didn't need to be...dealt with...so abruptly, he needed to be removed from any position of power, fast.

IMO, this falls under the category of "Aragorn murdered the Mouth of Sauron and it is a crime" as rather silly and illogical arguments for characters committing unjust "murder."

Kubota was willing to kill a pregnant woman in her sleep...seriously guys...he deserved no better than this.

[Taljen]

Are you still arguing about this? Nobody is going to change anyone else's mind here, let's just agree to disagree and see what happens.

[bue52]

21 pages with reactions. Good episode indeed. But I guess that nearly noone is going to read it all.

Lol, somehow, it seems that they are talking more about morality and alignments then the characters involved themselves.