LGBTitp - Part Eight

[Jacklu]

Welcome, one and all.

This is a thread where we Playgrounders, and LGBTitp in particular, gather to discuss, share our experiences, give general advice and support one another in such matters as arise relating to, well, the world beyond heteronormaitivity.

• Everyone is welcome. Let's try to keep from seeming otherwise.
• Keep this topic free of politics and religion. (so, don't violate the board rules, plz)
• It's beyond the scope of this thread to discuss whether LGBT is "Right." (And really, most discussions probably should avoid moralizing too much anyway)
• Please refrain from posting sexually explicit content. (Keep it friendly as well as board safe )

If you would rather be anonymous when asking for advice or sharing your story or views, you can use the address below to send a message to be posted in this thread via proxy.

http://anonmail.smeenet.org/

Keep in mind that content which contain strong language may be filtered (Plus, y'know, the forum-filters), and content that violates the forum rules won't be posted at all.

Here are the links for the last few threads, where much of use or interest may be found:

1. LGBT people in the playground
   
2. LGBT people in the playground - part II
   
3. LGBTitp - part III
   
4. LGBTitp 4: We are a family?
   
5. LGBTitp - Part Five
   
6. LGBTitp - Part Six
   
7. LGBTitp - Part Seven

*modified from the original.

[Jacklu]

New thread! So, the discussion on the last thread seemed to be on dating sites and stuff. Personally, Giantitp is the closest thing to a dating site I use. <.< Met my Girlfriend here even.

[Lord_Gareth]

Hi >.>

This is mildly embarrassing (and not for the reasons you might think), but I think I might be bi-curious. That, in and of itself, is not the embarrassing bit. No, the embarrassing bit is that I'm not sure if I'm curious about it or not. I mean, honestly. It's like not knowing whether or not you'd consider trying a new kind of cheese. I'm not even at the decision-making stage, for Cthulu's sake!

Also, longtime supporter, first time poster.

[Danne]

Hi!

And honestly, that's pretty much how most people go through the process, or at least it's how I did. You may or may not decide that you're curious, and if you are you may or may not decide that you're really bi. A lot of people go through phases where they're curious (even straight people). Curiosity is good!

Anywho, no need to make that decision until you're ready. Put some thought into it. Don't panic. If you're curious, then explore! (A good philosophy for all sorts of things in life, that. Though not everything.) If not, then move on with your life. No harm done.

Edit: Also, yay, new thread!

[tgva8889]

Hi >.>

This is mildly embarrassing (and not for the reasons you might think), but I think I might be bi-curious. That, in and of itself, is not the embarrassing bit. No, the embarrassing bit is that I'm not sure if I'm curious about it or not. I mean, honestly. It's like not knowing whether or not you'd consider trying a new kind of cheese. I'm not even at the decision-making stage, for Cthulu's sake!

Also, longtime supporter, first time poster.

Here's the biggest sign, at least from my end, on being bi-curious.

Have you ever thought about being in a relationship with someone of the gender you are not attracted to? If the answer is yes, and you thought about it in a seriously desiring way, then chances are bi-curiosity is something you should consider.

Maybe that's just me...sorry for speaking for those who are, as someone who isn't really.

[Lord_Gareth]

For all future reference, the situation is complicated by the presence of a bi-sexual wife who doesn't like to share me (but does like to hand out occasional treats of the kind most straight men can only achieve via overactive imagination and a robust adult movie collection). I'm sure I'll figure it out somehow, but here lately, I've needed to vent little frustrations like this one. It's hard, at times, when a intriguing daydream is interrupted by an unexpected addition and your brain's reaction isn't "GAH!" or "Hey sexy!" but rather, "Huh. I dunno."

[Danne]

Ah. Yes, best not to do anything that would get you in trouble.

If your wife is bi, have you tried talking to her about it? She might understand and/or have pointers.

[Lord_Gareth]

You know, I have. However, my poor wife grew up in rural Michigan, where people still got beaten for coming out of any kind of closet, and if her parents knew anything, she'd get disowned so fast that I bet I could smell the ink on the will from a mile off. Consequentially, her experiences are somewhat limited and specialized (meaning there's been two of them, and I was participating in one) and of little use to my personal dilemma.

...Wow I just sounded so dry up there >.>

[golentan]

Goletan... I kinda think you might have a slightly distorted (or at least overly-generalising) view of what goes on on dating sites. Take my friend: he met a girl on OKCupid. They got on fine online, and became friends. Then they decided to meet in person a couple of times, to decide if there was anything more to it. It turned out there was, and so then they decided to get together properly. They didn't go "I'm looking for a girlfriend, you're looking for a boyfriend... We're a couple now! :D". They said, "I'm looking for a girlfriend, you're looking for a boyfriend... And we're both looking for friends! Lets talk and see if we get along, and if we do we should meet up and then maybe we could try dating if we want to and if not we could try being friends! :D"
I think that, most of the time, the meeting on dating sites is more like, say, here on the forums, than Chatroulette. You seem to be assuming that the Chatroulette style is the be-all and end-all.

Not everyone has "strata from childhood" from whom to select their lifelong mate. Not everyone has an assortment of clubs and social gatherings at which to meet new people in the flesh - in this regard, I expect dating sites are a huge boon to people way out bush. Not everyone assumes that meeting someone on the internet means you fall for them at first email, and bang 'em at first meeting.

edit: Put it this way. Do you find it skeevy that some people might join up to this forum hoping to make some friends, as well as have interesting discussions on a wide variety of topics?

THAT'S NOT WHAT I'M ASSUMING!

The purpose of dating sites is to date. People go there to pursue other people for the express purpose of dating, hence the name. The idea being that you look for romance, and meet people if and only if they have prospect of romance or (tangentially) if they become friends through the networking portion of the setup as a side effect. If it were any other way, the other non-dating social networking sites would be a superior option in almost every respect due to the pool size, if nothing else.

Your friend's story is a perfect illustration of this. Went looking for romance, found a potential mate, corresponded, THEN met to confirm or deny the possibility, and finally began a relationship. The idea that you can be friends with someone who you don't know in person is ludicrous, because it's too easy to become friends with their fictional persona or self image rather than the person who lives behind that mask. And I'm not talking about consciously lying about who you are, I'm talking about the warp that all people have in their understanding of who they are.

So yes, I find it skeevy that someone would view other playgrounders as friends, at least before meeting outside of the playground. I like ya', vipermorph. And I have a feeling we'd either be friends or at each others throats if we ever met, which is my favorite kind of friendship to form. But you aren't my friend, because you have no understanding of who I am, only who I think I am, and vice versa. I couldn't be your friend until I understood how much of you is wit and how much preparation, how you deal with life's little indignities, how you react to people, how you work and how you play in a way you could never adequately put in writing. THAT'S why I view it as pursuit of strangers, and why it comes off as unnerving.

But as I also said, I find the idea of money unnerving. Automobiles are unnerving (give me a train any day). Jealousy is too foreign to really wrap my head around, and actively frightens me. Skin gives me an unpleasant case of the shivers every time I feel my muscles shift under it, or it pinches or stretches. The fact that something is alien or disturbing doesn't make it wrong, it just makes it disturbing and alien.

Also, nowadays you have place of work/school to draw on, which is probably better in most ways than social strata for compatibility of spirit. If you don't know someone from those pools you almost have to be actively trying or have a truly twisted view of romance.

[Innis Cabal]

Speaking outside of the LGBT issue...I find the idea that you can't form friendships over online rather insulting. I've known a person for four years online, only met once in person and now I live with her. Just because you can't fathom how it's done dosn't mean others can't and accomplish it on a daily basis.

[golentan]

Which completely ignores my side point that it is alien and disturbing but that does not necessarily make it wrong. I refuse to apologize for calling such things creepy because they *are* creepy. I refuse to apologize for saying that I couldn't be someone else's friend without actually knowing them because it's true. But at no point did I say other people couldn't view those they met online as friends, just that it's creepy as all hell and I view it as akin to saying you're friends with a character in a book for the reasons I gave. I don't have an omniscient morality license, but that's why I find such things creepy, and you ain't gonna change that by getting indignant or offended by the fact any more than I'm going to try to make people stop doing things that creep me out. Both of which would be hideous perversions of ideals I hold dear, and completely wasted efforts.

[Innis Cabal]

-YOU- find it creepy and wrong. And your entitled to that opinion. But it's just that. An opinion. Human social networking evolves as the technology and culture of the human race evovles. Sure, it goes against your "Ideals" but clearly people are benifiting from it. And ya sure, you say just because it's alien it's not "Wrong" but your still condeming people for doing something in your own words as hideous perversions. So as much as you want to sit there and try to absolve your stance by seemingly open and understanding...your still sitting there behind your screen sneering at it like it's some sick and ugly dog that's clinging to life.

Your waffeling between it being your opinion and it being mere fact. And that's what I picked up on, I didn't ignore your point.

But at no point did I say other people couldn't view those they met online as friends, just that it's creepy as all hell and I view it as akin to saying you're friends with a character in a book for the reasons I gave.

Such as that. You say "It's creepy" but it's just your opinion. It's not creepy. It's something that's pretty well founded in the current social networking circle. It's just -different-. And sure, that might be "spooooooooookey" to you, but that's again...your opinion. That your trying to seemingly pass off as fact while retreating to "But it's not wrong!".

It's impossible for people to show their true selves over a medium that dosn't require full physical apperances and contacts? Because that's some flawless vaunted method of learning people's true soul or something? The human element somehow makes it impossible to hide what you are while putting a screen in front of yourself somehow...makes it impossible to see how someone really is? I call honest bull crap.

[Serpentine]

Which completely ignores my side point that homosexuality is alien and disturbing but that does not necessarily make it wrong. I refuse to apologize for calling such things creepy because they *are* creepy. I refuse to apologize for saying that I couldn't fall in love with another man because it's true. But at no point did I say other people couldn't date other people of the same sex, just that it's creepy as all hell and I view it as akin to saying you're in love with yourself for the reasons I gave. I don't have an omniscient morality license, but that's why I find such things creepy, and you ain't gonna change that by getting indignant or offended by the fact any more than I'm going to try to make people stop doing things that creep me out. Both of which would be hideous perversions of ideals I hold dear, and completely wasted efforts.

You see where we're coming from?

[Asta Kask]

*probably not Serp*

You see where we're coming from?

You may want to check out the quote tags. Either that or you just said you'd never fall in love with another man... (which wouldn't be odd for the thread, just for Serp)

[Serpentine]

Read two posts above mine

[Innis Cabal]

It wasn't a quote, it was using Gol's argument with another bit of commentary (Though I think Serp would be just fine being attracted to men if that -was- an argument from her)

[Coidzor]

Hmm. Why is this such a touchy subject with you anyway, Golentan?

You already stated you wouldn't use them, and we don't care if you don't use them or if you do use them.

[golentan]

Innis: The "hideous perversions" I referred to were trying to enforce change on my thoughts for your comfort, or trying to enforce change on your thoughts for my comfort, not making friends online. The mind is, to me, sacrosanct. Even more so than life.

As for the rest, creepy is always a matter of opinion. So when I say it is creepy that is a fact: in my opinion it is creepy, ergo it is creepy. If you can't differentiate that, tough. Yeah, I view it as bizarre and disturbing. Add that to the list of about 500 other things I find disturbing about literally everybody I know and love, and a couple thousand off putting things that seem to be optional. Yeah, I view it as inferior to my way, or it would only be counterintuitive and so a fun puzzle. Everyone does the same at some point, or the world would be a monochrome of behavior. I'm just honest about it. Acceptance isn't embracement. If you can't accept that something can be uncomfortable but acceptable, double tough.

And it's not meeting someone in person that shows you who they are, it's interacting with them when they can't compose, but simply have to *be.* It keeps them from dissembling who they are into who they think they are.

Serp... While I see the point you're trying to make, I have no problem with that attitude. Save that I would dispute the "in love with yourself," mostly on the grounds that sex =/= love. People get squicked by sex they don't appreciate. Unless they try to enforce their squicks on others, and don't say that it is fundamentally/universally wrong rather than specifically disturbing, that is fine.

Heck, that's fundamentally the speech my dad gave me a while back. He also helped set me up with a good looking fella shortly thereafter.

Coidzor: It's touchy because when it was touched lightly upon, I kept getting angrily jumped and drawn into further explanation until I am now being called a bigot by half the thread because an idea I have nothing against save a vague unease and difficulty grasping inspires vaguely uneasy feelings and I'm honest about it.

[Serpentine]

Fine. I'll just address one more thing.

The purpose of dating sites is to date. People go there to pursue other people for the express purpose of dating, hence the name.

This is not necessarily true. Like I said, I have an OKCupid page. My ex and I both got one while we were together. OKCupid is a "dating site". We did not use it to date. At some point, I might. "Dating sites" can have other applications - OKCupid might be an exception in this regard, but I think pretty much all of them have a "looking for: friends" option. Tell me, do you find pubs and bars creepy because people go there solely or primarily for the purpose of meeting strangers to date? What about singles' nights? Speed dating? Debutant balls? Okay, the last one doesn't count - they are creepy

Everyone is strangers at some point. If you refuse to ever meet anyone you don't already know, you're not gonna meet many people. "Dating sites" are just another way to make a stranger into not-a-stranger.

edit: Oo oo! I know how to put it! Dating sites are just pubs and bars on the internet. Some people go there to pick up, some people go there to make friends, some people go there to meet new people in general, some people just go to enjoy other services, and some people go to get drunk and fall down. Wait...

[Lioness]

Regardless of whether dating sites are or are not creepy, I think we've gone beyond "Which dating sites are queer friendly" and into "Pros and cons of dating sites"
Which, you know, is not entirely LGBT relevant.

[golentan]

Actually, I find bars creepy more because people go there to damage their minds and organs, but I also find the idea of going there for romance creepy. Sex not so much. Speed dating, yes.

Guess what? I also find both hetero and homosexuality creepy, because it seems like letting your gonads rule your love life in a way I don't really grasp. I find transexualism creepy because bodies to me are no more or less than tools. I find the idea of monogamy creepy, because love seems to be best shared. I find money creepy because it's resources allocated unevenly, sometimes for things everyone should chip in for to maintain society and sometimes for bizarre whims (from my point of view). I find sports creepy because they're sublimated violence. I find smiles creepy because it seems like a threat to bite me. I find salad bars creepy because everyone touches the tongs. I find the internet creepy because I'm never sure who might be monitoring me. I find hands creepy because fingers only bend one way without breaking. I find college creepy because you're kicking youths out to accumulate debt and find their own way without guidance and with limited preparation to clean up the mess after the fact. I find cars creepy because they seem wasteful and dangerous compared to mass transit. I find aboveground buildings creepy because they can theoretically fall over/down. I find shoes creepy because they cut off sensation from the ground, or the ability to grip with toes, limiting the functionality of half of your limbs.

People are creepy in more ways than I can count. I am an oddball. These are facts of life, which I don't let impinge on living.

[Lioness]

*snip*

I really hope you don't read horror stories...

[Serpentine]

Last thought: You say "tough". I say, "fine, but don't whinge when people "jump down your throat" for expressing an (insulting) opinion as fact".


Queer stuff... queer stuff... I like the word "queer", does that count? I like all the different images "queering up the place" invokes...

[Coidzor]

I like all the different images "queering up the place" invokes...

Sadly, I don't really have any mental images invoked by that phrase. What are some of the ones you have?

[Lix Lorn]

Posting to get a thread subscription.

\/ ...I didn't know that. Thank you.

[Rawhide]

Posting to get a thread subscription.

You don't need to do that. Please use the "Thread Tools" link at the top of the thread instead.

[Coidzor]

You don't need to do that. Please use the "Thread Tools" link at the top of the thread instead.

Thank you as well.

*Ahem*

So as to be on topic, a question. Is there any way to patch things up with a friend after awkwardly sexually experimenting with them or is that pretty much an irrevocable death to any kind of even friend-level relationship?

[Lix Lorn]

Well... you could try just calling them and asking to go out for a drink/play football/whatever you used to do, as if nothing had changed?

Ooor, you could show up at their door and say 'we need to talk?'
I... don't exactly have experience, but I'd probably lean towards the second...

[Serpentine]

Sadly, I don't really have any mental images invoked by that phrase. What are some of the ones you have?

Well, for starters, I imagine what a room would look like if, say, Kneenibble's budgie got into it. Rainbows and unicorns and feather boas and posters of virile young men stuck on the garish wallpaper, that sort of thing. You know, real "queered-up".
Then there's a room that's all weird. Ochre tie-dye wallpaper, curtains with eyeball print, a coffee table made out of an elephant skull. A real queer room.
Then there's a room that's just... off. The angles aren't right. The colours don't quite go together, and you can't tell whether there's a pattern on the curtains or if it's just the weave and shadow, and you think you saw that knick-knack in a shot of a murder scene on the news. Just a bit... queer.

edit: I think that might be a "pretend it never happened" sort of situation. Not so much "never ever acknowledge it under any circumstances", as "plow on determinedly through the awkwardness by maintaining normal behaviour until all the awkwardness has been beaten under the overbearing mass of banality".

[Lix Lorn]

Well, for starters, I imagine what a room would look like if, say, Kneenibble's budgie got into it. Rainbows and unicorns and feather boas and posters of virile young men stuck on the garish wallpaper, that sort of thing. You know, real "queered-up".
Then there's a room that's all weird. Ochre tie-dye wallpaper, curtains with eyeball print, a coffee table made out of an elephant skull. A real queer room.
Then there's a room that's just... off. The angles aren't right. The colours don't quite go together, and you can't tell whether there's a pattern on the curtains or if it's just the weave and shadow, and you think you saw that knick-knack in a shot of a murder scene on the news. Just a bit... queer.

Serpentine, I adore you. XD That's so awesome.