The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

[ExLibrisMortis]

1. Awful lot of discussion for something so clear and obvious.

Hardly. And, as Caelestion said: we're going off of memory here, and sometimes old memories.

2. I'm not sure what Niffft's quoting, exactly, but they sure sound related. Which isn't surprising, since they use many of the same rules.

The etherealness-incorporealty connection only exists for Material Plane creatures trying to interact with Ethereal Plane creatures: the ethereal creatures are treated as incorporeal, invisible, and silent (which is redundant, because incorporeal creatures are also silent). However, ethereal creatures are perfectly corporeal to one another, and there's nothing preventing you from going incorporeal on the Ethereal Plane.

It's probably easiest if you think in terms of four layers:

	corporeal	incorporeal
material	regular folks	incorporeal folks
ethereal	plane shifted folks	plane shifted incorporeal folks

Each layer has certain rules governing how they interact. Typically, creatures in the same box affect one another much like ordinary physical creatures do. For example, incorporeal creatures can fight one another with natural weapons, and they cannot occupy the same space (there are also some exceptions, but okay). The corporeal/material layer treats the incorporeal/material layer much like the ethereal layer.

[Inevitability]

Xorn

Kids, don't do trimerism. It's bad for you.

Xorn come in three sizes, continuing the pattern seen in arrowhawks, salamanders, and tojanidas. Regardless of age, they have high natural armor (we're talking +12-16 here), immunity to cold and fire, resistance to electricity, tremorsense, DR 5/bludgeoning, a burrow speed with Earth Glide, and all-around vision, which I must admit is a pretty neat set of defensive benefits.

Minor Xorn

For 3 RHD, the aforementioned benefits are quite nice, and minor xorns have a strength bonus (despite being Small), a very strong bite attack, and three supplementary claws. +12 natural armor is impressive as well.

Even if their special abilities aren't anything to write home about, I feel like minor xorns will have a considerable impact on combat, and in addition their RHD are low enough to allow access to prestige classes without the usual struggles. For now, I'll give it +1 LA.

Average Xorn

Two points of strength, a size increase, +2 natural armor and bigger natural weapons, plus Cleave as a bonus feat for some reason. Not worth four extra RHD, that's for sure. -0 LA.

Elder Xorn

Actual stat increases this time, but even bigger RHD increases. Also, 'walking through rock' isn't sufficient noncombat utility at these levels, if it ever was at all. -0 LA.

[Mike Miller]

Xorn

I agree on all three; +1 / -0 / -0

[Nifft]

Minor Xorn

Str +4, Con +4 => net +8, no penalties, pretty spiffy

Natural Armor +12 is enough to ignore the funky character shape's impact on armor purchases for quite a while.

SQ: All-around vision, earth glide, damage reduction 5/bludgeoning, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to cold and fire, resistance to electricity 10, tremorsense 60 ft.

All-Around Vision (Ex): A xorn’s symmetrically placed eyes allow it to look in any direction, providing a +4 racial bonus on Spot and Search checks. A xorn can’t be flanked.

Earth Glide (Ex): A xorn can glide through stone, dirt, or almost any other sort of earth except metal as easily as a fish swims through water. Its burrowing leaves behind no tunnel or hole, nor does it create any ripple or other signs of its presence. A move earth spell cast on an area containing a burrowing xorn flings the xorn back 30 feet, stunning the creature for 1 round unless it succeeds on a DC 15 Fortitude save.


This is some good stuff.

The ability to swim under walls & up cliff faces, and through the floors & ceilings of caverns, is significant mobility.

You could make a sneaky Pounce Barbarian who identifies a vulnerable target in the back ranks, and charges up from below.

You're natively an anti-Rogue, with Flank immunity and Tremorsense outright negating most Hide checks.


I'd probably use this guy as a gish base -- those Outsider HD come with free martial weapon proficiency, after all -- but Barb 1 / Totemist 2 / Totem Rager might also be fun.

Verdict: LA +1 (at least) on top of the 3 RHD.

EDIT: Thinking about it, LA +1 might not be enough. But LA +2 is really harsh. Hmm.

[zlefin]

Elder is definitely -0, far too many RHD.
Minor is +1, maybe even a +2; the abilities can be very useful in lower level games, and some remain quite relevant later on.
I agree that the average one isn't much of an improvement, and outsider HD are still only racial HD; but it kinda feels like the average xorn would still be playable at ECL 7. so it might deserve a weak +0 rather than a -0.

the xorn's have a solid skill list.

[No brains]

This gets me thinking: how many HD should a Xorn have to be LA+0? Somewhere between minor and average must be a butter zone of power for these guys. Perhaps that +1 to LA could be taken as a hit die?

[Nifft]

This gets me thinking: how many HD should a Xorn have to be LA+0? Somewhere between minor and average must be a butter zone of power for these guys. Perhaps that +1 to LA could be taken as a hit die?

Average Xorn might be +0.

Immunity to cold & fire is pretty great.

Earth Glide is pretty great.

7 Outsider HD with +10 stats and no stat penalties can be decent for a T3/T4 melee character, especially in combo with the other goodies (tremorsense, +12 natural armor, claw/claw/bonusclaw/bite).

If you simply must be a T1/T2 character, you've still got Divine Crusader -> Sovereign Speaker, and seven Outsider HD are no worse than many other full-BAB prefixes. (For accelerated casting, you've also got Ur-Priest and Apostle of Peace.)

[Lans]

Average Xorn might be +0.

Immunity to cold & fire is pretty great.

Earth Glide is pretty great.

7 Outsider HD with +10 stats and no stat penalties can be decent for a T3/T4 melee character, especially in combo with the other goodies (tremorsense, +12 natural armor, claw/claw/bonusclaw/bite).

It the bar is T4, even the elder xorn compares well to a barbarian.

[ViperMagnum357]

+1 +0 -0

Outsider HD are good, but the 2 larger Xorn do not have enough going for them to justify that much RHD, even comparing to non-initiator martials.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Also, 'walking through rock' isn't sufficient noncombat utility at these levels, if it ever was at all. -0 LA.

I mean, it lets you bypass all sorts of dungeon defenses (which is most useful if you can unlock the defenses from the other side, but has utility either way). Also, it can probably move through stone walls in the middle of combat, which should offer some interesting opportunities. It will also help alleviate the side effects of being Large in cramped underground corridors...unless the residents installed plaster or something, of course.

This gets me thinking: how many HD should a Xorn have to be LA+0? Somewhere between minor and average must be a butter zone of power for these guys. Perhaps that +1 to LA could be taken as a hit die?

It does make them slightly stronger (more HP, more BAB, better saves...) +2 HD might be required.
The proper LA/RHD ratio is about as easy to intuit as LA is in the first place.
P.S. ...Interesting username. I assume it was chosen willingly?

[Nifft]

It the bar is T4, even the elder xorn compares well to a barbarian.

Inevitable's bar is T3/T4.

My bar is "whatever class seems best" -- my thinking is that informed players will only choose a race that's a good fit for the sort of game they expect to play, so if the best use for a race is Barbarian, then I assume the race will only be used in games where Barbarians are relevant.

[Inevitability]

I mean, it lets you bypass all sorts of dungeon defenses (which is most useful if you can unlock the defenses from the other side, but has utility either way). Also, it can probably move through stone walls in the middle of combat, which should offer some interesting opportunities. It will also help alleviate the side effects of being Large in cramped underground corridors...unless the residents installed plaster or something, of course.

Sure, but your allies can't go with you, and unless you pop out of the stone you won't learn anything other than a room's sounds and number of earthbound occupants. That's what, a 3rd-level spell? Even paladins could be casting it by now.

P.S. ...Interesting username. I assume it was chosen willingly?

It's D&D: not having brains is arguably an advantage. It doesn't have to affect intelligence, but it does immunize you to one of the most unavoidable instant-death attacks there is.

[Coretron03]

So when the Ancient Egyptians removed corpses brains, they were optimising them for the afterlife?

[Blue Jay]

So when the Ancient Egyptians removed corpses brains, they were optimising them for the afterlife?

Yes, the practice dates back to the Pharaoh Munchkinhotep I.

[GreatWyrmGold]

So when the Ancient Egyptians removed corpses brains, they were optimising them for the afterlife?

I'd call that sig-worthy.

[atemu1234]

So when the Ancient Egyptians removed corpses brains, they were optimising them for the afterlife?

Yes, the practice dates back to the Pharaoh Munchkinhotep I.

This exchange is the kind of thing that gives me a reason to stay on this site.

[No brains]

It does make them slightly stronger (more HP, more BAB, better saves...) +2 HD might be required.
The proper LA/RHD ratio is about as easy to intuit as LA is in the first place.
P.S. ...Interesting username. I assume it was chosen willingly?

I wonder if players would take LA/HD trades on other creatures. Some are probably too strong for that to work, but I getting to ECL=HD would be a nice way to streamline character advancement.

As for my name, I did choose it willingly. I use it partly as a reminder not to get too invested in my points of view. I want to follow the rule that comes before rule 0 and just have fun here. I can think as hard as I want and I may even make some good points from doing so, but I'm here to talk about a children's card board game. It's not serious business.

It's D&D: not having brains is arguably an advantage. It doesn't have to affect intelligence, but it does immunize you to one of the most unavoidable instant-death attacks there is.

Also yeah, this is also a consideration. There are few things as satisfying as yelling "Eat THIS!" and headbutting an illithid in the teeth.

So when the Ancient Egyptians removed corpses brains, they were optimising them for the afterlife?

Yes, the practice dates back to the Pharaoh Munchkinhotep I.

I'd call that sig-worthy.

This exchange is the kind of thing that gives me a reason to stay on this site.

Silliness like this just warms my lack of discernible anatomy.

[Inevitability]

So when the Ancient Egyptians removed corpses brains, they were optimising them for the afterlife?

Has anybody asked to sig this yet? Because I would really like to.

[Coretron03]

Has anybody asked to sig this yet? Because I would really like to.

Nobody has asked yet, GreatWyrmGold just said it was sig worthy. I'd be honoured if you were to Sig it though, so go right ahead!

[Caelestion]

So when the Ancient Egyptians removed corpses brains, they were optimising them for the afterlife?

As the risk of being boring, that's exactly what they were doing (just not with the brains).

[GreatWyrmGold]

I think the brain-removal thing was just them getting rid of some useless crap that was tricky to preserve, and that they didn't want rotting inside their pharaoh's head. There are probably other organs they did that with, but we don't remember them because later scientific advancements didn't reveal them to be critical to bodily function. Nobody's going to be like, "Did you know that the ancient Egyptians just threw away the spleen because they thought the heart filtered blood?"

[Blue Jay]

I think the brain-removal thing was just them getting rid of some useless crap that was tricky to preserve, and that they didn't want rotting inside their pharaoh's head. There are probably other organs they did that with, but we don't remember them because later scientific advancements didn't reveal them to be critical to bodily function. Nobody's going to be like, "Did you know that the ancient Egyptians just threw away the spleen because they thought the heart filtered blood?"

You know, you're probably right. But, I can't really conjure up the will to think about it, because my mind is currently busy wondering about something else:

Silliness like this just warms my lack of discernible anatomy.

See that? I don't see how you can be intellectualizing about ancient Egyptian burial practices when you ought to be busy wondering if No brains is an ooze. I mean, think about it: Iit's already been at least, like... a bunch of rounds since his last post, and since hardness offers no protection against acid damage, for all we know, his keyboard has already been completely eaten away, and we'll never hear from him again.

Our only hope is that he's an ochre jelly, and that his keyboard is not made of flesh.

Fingers crossed.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I'm sure he's found a solution. Non-humanoids in the modern world have a lot more options than we did back in the day; things aren't perfect, by any means, but they're improving.

[Caelestion]

Says the dragon who can assume humanoid form and even have bipedal children. #invisibledisability

[Luccan]

Says the dragon who can assume humanoid form and even have bipedal children. #invisibledisability

In our modern society, a dragon should not have to conform to humanoid body-types just to use basic goods.

[Caelestion]

Dragons live for over a dozen centuries and far exceed humanoids in nearly any conceivable category. I'm sure they'll manage.

[atemu1234]

In our modern society, a dragon should not have to conform to humanoid body-types just to use basic goods.

I hate it when I get called insensitive for using a dragon's ring as a hula-hoop.

[Luccan]

I hate it when I get called insensitive for using a dragon's ring as a hula-hoop.

I'm more impressed you can do that at all. How much would a hula-hoop made of pure gold, silver, or platinum weigh?

[Nifft]

I hate it when I get called insensitive for using a dragon's ring as a hula-hoop.

Roll for ana-- wait, wrong game.

[Flickerdart]

I'm more impressed you can do that at all. How much would a hula-hoop made of pure gold, silver, or platinum weigh?

Hula hoops are typically hollow, so if it's very thin, not much at all.