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2013-07-06, 07:23 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2011
- Location
- The Great White North
Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLVII
Welcome, contestants, judges, and guests to Iron Chef XLVII. Here in Optimization Colosseum, contestants will endeavor to create an optimized and flavorful character using a specified D&D3.5 prestige class as a "Secret Ingredient".
Contestants: You will need to present a write-up of your build at at least one of the following points: 5th level, 10th level, 15th, 20th, and a "sweet spot" that you feel is the high point of the build, as well as presenting a fully-fleshed out 20-level build in the table below. Feel free to present as many of these as you like, and please give a rundown of the build's abilities and playability at all of the levels you didn't show. The rules are as follows:
Menu: For most challenges, the "special ingredient" will be drawn from Core plus Completes. There will, from time to time, be special challenges that showcase secret ingredients from other books--for example, the XPH.
32 point-buy is the presumed creation method, but we have generally allowed other levels of point-buy.
If you do use a different point-buy, please make your case for its necessity in your entry. Keep in mind that for using exceptionally large or small point-buys may warrant deductions in elegance and/or power.
Kitchen: Competitors will be free to use any official 3.5 rulebook in constructing their builds. Dragon magazine is disallowed, and Unearthed Arcana is allowed; but see Elegance below. Web-exclusive 3.0 or 3.5 materials by WotC are expressly allowed, but take care to verify that an updated version did not appear in print elsewhere, as this may cause an Elegance deduction at the judges' discretion. Alternate rule systems from UA such as gestalt are not allowed, as they create a different playing field. Also, item familiars are forbidden because I hate 'em.
Cooking Time: Contestants will have until 11:59PM GMT on Sunday, July 21st, 2013 to create their builds and PM them to the Chairman, Kuulvheysoon. Builds will then be posted simultaneously, to avoid copying. Judges will have until 11:59PM GMT on Saturday, August3rd10th, 2013 to judge the builds and submit their scores. If no judges have scored by that point, only the scores of the first judge to submit will be counted.
Judging: Judging will be based on the following criteria, with each build rated from 1 (very poor) to 5 (exemplary) in each area: Originality, Power, Elegance, Use of Secret Ingredient.
Power level is up to you. Cheese is acceptable, but should be kept to a sane level unless you're showcasing a new TO build you've discovered. In the words of one of my predecessors, a little cheddar can be nice, but avoid the mature Gruyere unless you're making a cheese fondue.Elegance could bear a little elaboration. It basically measures how skillfully you put your build together, and whether you sacrificed flavor for power. We're cooking here - if your dish doesn't taste good, it doesn't matter how well-presented it is. Use of flaws is an automatic loss of one point per flaw in this category. Other things that will cause lost points here are excessive multiclassing, and classes that don't fit the concept - using Cloistered Cleric in a front-line melee fighter, for example, will lose you points. Please note the following change: a legal source's relative obscurity should not be considered as penalizing Elegance, excepting the aforementioned issues with Unearthed Arcana. Using too many sources may be an Elegance deduction at the judges' discretion, but a book's relative obscurity may not.Presentation: Builds will be posted anonymously, in order to avoid the potential of bias towards a particular competitor. For this reason, please don't put your name in the build, as I'm likely to miss it when reviewing the entries!
Due to concerns about standardizing entry format, I'd like everyone to try to use the following table for their entry.SpoilerNAME OF ENTRY
{table=head]Level|Class|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Skills|Feats|Class Features
1st|New Class Level|+x|+x|+x|+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
2nd|New Class Level|+x|+x|+x|+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
3rd|New Class Level|+x|+x|+x|+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
4th|New Class Level|+x|+x|+x|+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
5th|New Class Level|+x|+x|+x|+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
6th|New Class Level|+x|+x|+x|+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
7th|New Class Level|+x|+x|+x|+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
8th|New Class Level|+x|+x|+x|+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
9th|New Class Level|+x|+x|+x|+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
10th|New Class Level|+x|+x|+x|+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
11th|New Class Level|+x|+x|+x|+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
12th|New Class Level|+x|+x|+x|+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
13th|New Class Level|+x|+x|+x|+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
14th|New Class Level|+x|+x|+x|+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
15th|New Class Level|+x|+x|+x|+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
16th|New Class Level|+x|+x|+x|+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
17th|New Class Level|+x|+x|+x|+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
18th|New Class Level|+x|+x|+x|+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
19th|New Class Level|+x|+x|+x|+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
20th|New Class Level|+x|+x|+x|+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities[/table]
CodeSpoiler[b]NAME OF ENTRY[/b]
{table=head][b]Level[/b]|[b]Class[/b]|[b]Base Attack Bonus[/b]|[b]Fort Save[/b]|[b]Ref Save[/b]|[b]Will Save[/b]|[b]Skills[/b]|[b]Feats[/b]|[b]Class Features[/b]
1st|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
2nd|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
3rd|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
4th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
5th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
6th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
7th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
8th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
9th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
10th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
11th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
12th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
13th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
14th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
15th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
16th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
17th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
18th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
19th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
20th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities[/table]
For entries with spellcasting, use the following table for Spells per day and Spells Known. (Spells Known only if necessary, i.e. Sorcerer or Bard, but not Wizard or Warmage)SpoilerSpells per day/Spells Known
{table=head]Level|0lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th|9th
1st|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
2nd|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
3rd|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
4th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
5th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
6th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
7th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
8th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
9th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
10th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
11th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
12th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
13th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
14th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
15th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
16th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
17th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
18th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
19th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
20th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-[/table]
CodeSpoiler[b]Spells per day/Spells Known[/b]
{table=head][b]Level[/b]|[b]0lvl[/b]|[b]1st[/b]|[b]2nd[/b]|[b]3rd[/b]|[b]4th[/b]|[b]5th[/b]|[b]6th[/b]|[b]7th[/b]|[b]8th[/b]|[b]9th[/b]
1st|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
2nd|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
3rd|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
4th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
5th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
6th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
7th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
8th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
9th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
10th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
11th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
12th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
13th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
14th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
15th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
16th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
17th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
18th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
19th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
20th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-[/table]
For other systems (Psionics, ToB, Incarnum, etc.) keep track of PP/maneuvers/essentia separately, preferably in a nice neat list.Speculation: Please don't post or speculate on possible builds until the "reveal," in order to avoid spoiling the surprise if a particular competitor is producing a build along those lines.
Leadership is banned; we're producing a meal, not a seven-course banquet for a hundred diners. If your entry includes a prestige class or ACF that grants Leadership or a Leadership-like ability as a bonus feat, the feat should be ignored and is not eligible to be traded away for another feat or ACF through any means.
So! Who wants to sign up as a contestant, and who wants to sign up as a judge? Looking for as many contestants and judges as feel like playing!
This week's special ingredient is:
Fey Feature's Cold Iron Warrior!
We will award 1st through 3rd places, as well as a shout-out for honorable mention. The honorable mention prize is given to the most daring or unexpected build. Judges, contestants and guests alike are invited to vote for honorable mention via PM.
Allez optimiser!
Contestants
Judges
The Builds
Past Competitions
Iron Chef I: Entropomancer
Iron Chef II: Psibond Agent
Iron Chef III: Cancer Mage
Iron Chef IV: Stonelord
Iron Chef V: War Chanter
Iron Chef VI: Master of Masks
Iron Chef VII: Green Star Adept
Iron Chef VIII: Pyrokineticist
Iron Chef IX: Animal Lord
Iron Chef X: Mythic Exemplar
Iron Chef XI: Blade Bravo
Iron Chef XII: War Mind
Iron Chef XIII: Vigilante
Iron Chef XIV: Seeker of the Song
Iron Chef XV: Drunken Master
Iron Chef XVI: Assassin
Iron Chef XVII: Ardent Dilettante
Iron Chef XVIII: Unseelie Dark Hunter
Iron Chef XIX: Dread Pirate
Iron Chef XX: Incandescent Champion
Iron Chef XXI: Ghostwalker
Iron Chef XXII: Dervish
Iron Chef XXIII: Divine Crusader
Iron Chef XXIV: Tactical Soldier
Iron Chef XXV: Scion of Tem-Et-Nu
Iron Chef XXVI: Shadowdancer
Iron Chef XXVII: Mindbender
Iron Chef XXVIII: Cryokineticist
Iron Chef XXIX: Consecrated Harrier
Iron Chef XXX: Initiate of Pistis Sophia
Iron Chef XXXI: Shadow Sentinel
Iron Chef XXXII: Temple Raider of Olidammara
Iron Chef XXXIII: Drow Judicator
Iron Chef XXXIV: Dragon Disciple
Iron Chef XXXV: Death Delver
Iron Chef XXXVI: Acolyte of the Skin
Iron Chef XXXVII: Justiciar
Iron Chef XXXVIII: Hand of the Winged Master
Iron Chef XXXIX: Renegade Mastermaker
Iron Chef XL: Nightsong Infiltrator
Iron Chef XLI: Geomancer
Iron Chef XLII: Shadowblade
Iron Chef XLIII: Bladesinger
Iron Chef XLIV: Urban Soul
Iron Chef XLV: Talon of Tiamat
Iron Chef XLVI: Cipher AdeptLast edited by Kuulvheysoon; 2013-08-01 at 04:35 PM.
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2013-07-06, 07:24 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2011
- Location
- The Great White North
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLVII
FAQ:
What's this even about? I'm glad you asked, actually...
Is Dragon Compendium Allowed? Yes (as well as its Errata), but individual issues of Dragon Magazine are not.
What about 3.0 materials? 3.0 materials, whether online or in printed form, are allowed unless they've been officially updated to a 3.5 edition.
Are Dragonlance, Ravenloft, Planescape, Dark Sun, or Kingdoms of Kalamar allowable sources? The Dragonlance Campaign Setting is allowed, but the subsequent books for Dragonlance are considered 3rd party, and are therefore not eligible, despite the "WotC approved" status of those books. The same holds for Oriental Adventures (1st party) and the subsequent Rokugan books (3rd party). Materials from Ravenloft, Planescape, Dark Sun, and Kingdoms of Kalamar are considered 3rd party for purposes of this contest, and are therefore not allowed.
What about online sources in general? If the online source is a) published by WotC, and b) not replaced by an updated version at a later time, it is eligible. Use it, link it.
Where's the line drawn with "acceptable/unacceptable" for Unearthed Arcana? This will likely vary a bit from Chairman to Chairman. Item Familiars and Gestalt have always been verboten, since before IC migrated to GitP; don't expect that to change. Flaws have similarly always been noted as warranting a deduction; while I am Chairman, I'm extending that to Traits, though they warrant 1/2 the penalty in Elegance that a Flaw would because they're roughly 1/2 as useful. Alternate spell systems, alternate skill systems and alternate crafting rules all create an uneven playing field, and as such, will be disallowed for as long as I am Chairman. Bloodlines are ripe for abuse, and will be strongly discouraged as long as I am Chairman. Note that judges are allowed to look askance at any use of Unearthed Arcana not specifically mentioned above, at their discretion, and otherwise penalize Elegance according to their preference.
What, exactly, does the ban on Leadership mean? As folks have started to try to work around the edges of this one, I'm forced to spell it out more plainly. No Leadership, Draconic Cohort, or Feats that grant a similar ability are allowed EXCEPT Wild Cohort while Kuulvheysoon is chairman. Any PrC you choose with Leadership or a Leadership-analog has that ability entirely ignored for this contest, as it may neither be used nor traded away via any means whatsoever.
What's the minimum score in a category? Assuming an entry is legal, the minimum score in any category is 1. If a judge is convinced that an entry is illegal by the RAW, the judge may give a 0 or decline to score a given entry. Because this contest focuses on Player Characters, an entry that is not technically allowed for a PC, but is viable as an NPC, counts as a legal entry, but may receive a minimum score at the judges' discretion.
What kind of smite does the Cold Iron Warrior get? For the purposes of this contest, a 10th level CIW gets smite fey 3/day, regardless of what the text for smite fey may or may not say.Last edited by Kuulvheysoon; 2013-07-07 at 12:53 PM.
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2013-07-06, 07:27 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2007
- Location
- Bellona
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLVII
Huh. Definitely NOT what I was expecting. Not sure what I was expecting, but it certainly wasn't this.
Probably in to judge this round, I'm due for a judging.Optimization Showcase in the Playground
Former projects:
Shadowcaster Handbook
Archer Build Compendium
Iron Chef Awards!
Spoiler
GOLD
IC LXXVI: Talos
IC LXXV: Alphonse Louise Constant
IC XLIX: Babalon, Queen of Bones
IC XLV: Dead Mists
IC XL: Lycus Blackbeak
IC XXXIX: AM-1468
IC XXXV: Parsifal the Fool
IC XXX: Jal Filius
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2013-07-06, 07:28 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2009
- Gender
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLVII
You continue to amaze me with these ingredients, Kuul.
In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers
My compiled Iron Chef stuff!
~ Gay all day, queer all year ~
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2013-07-06, 07:28 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2011
- Location
- Texas
- Gender
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLVII
I'm all over this dish. Let's get cooking!
Last edited by Venger; 2013-07-06 at 07:29 PM.
I've got a new fantasy TTRPG about running your own fencing school in a 3 musketeers pastiche setting. Book coming soon.
Check out my NEW sci-fi TTRPG about first contact. Cool alien races, murderous AIs, and more. New expansion featuring rules for ships! New book here NOW!
Iron Chef Medals!
Amazing Princess Mononoke avatar by Dispozition
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2013-07-06, 07:30 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2013
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLVII
The fun part... I have played one. The not so fun part... it is MAD, really, MAD.
Thanks a lot Gengy for the awesome... just a sec... avatar. :)
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2013-07-06, 07:34 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2011
- Location
- The Great White North
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLVII
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2013-07-06, 07:37 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2013
- Location
- California
- Gender
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLVII
Greetings everyone!
Hmm this is definitely unexpected. I like the flavor but darn, a smitey class...well I'll probably give this one a shot. If I can't work out something good and there aren't too many entries, I'll give it my first try at judging.
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2013-07-06, 08:01 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2012
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLVII
Well, this is an odd one. Not sure if I have anything for this one. Perhaps I'll cook if inspiration strikes.
Kolyarut Avatar by Potatocubed.
Awards
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2013-07-06, 08:13 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2011
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLVII
Oh, god...that's pretty awful. I'm not sure how anyone will actually make use of those abilities into a cohesive build. Good luck, brave, brave warriors.
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2013-07-06, 08:19 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2009
- Location
- Runite
- Gender
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2013-07-06, 10:01 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2011
- Location
- The last place you look
- Gender
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLVII
Hmm... I have an interesting plan for this. I'll certainly use [REDACTED], but need a base first
Avatar by Venetian Mask. It's of an NPC from a campaign I may yet run (possibly in PbP) who became a favorite of mine while planning.
I am a 10/14/11/15/12/14 LG Clr 2
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2013-07-06, 10:10 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2012
- Location
- Necro-equestrian Pugilism
- Gender
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLVII
Good gravy, I'm in.
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2013-07-06, 10:14 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2011
- Location
- Michigan
- Gender
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLVII
I'm just thoroughly nonplussed by this thing. I can't see myself cooking up anything all that interesting. I'm excited about the prospect of becoming more involved in IC after the last competition though, and there was a whole lot of talk about the value of judging in the last thread, so I'll do that this round.
Criteria:
Originality
SpoilerStart from a baseline score of 3.
Up to 1 point of bonus or penalty based on whether the classes/race you used were things I expected, and whether anyone else thought to use them. I won't deduct points for using Human. Particularly stinky known cheese may see a deduction here.
Up to 1 point of bonus or penalty to a build doing something interesting or something we've all seen it before respectively. You can fill a common niche without incurring my wrath, but I'd like to see a new spin on it. Cool factor in your crunch may see a bonus here.
Up to a 0.25 point bonus if I find your fluff to be particularly excellent.
Plagiarism of another build found online will result in a 0 in this category. If you wish to dispute an accusation of plagiarism (ie, if you wish to demonstrate that the build I accuse you of copying was originally yours), PM me directly instead of using the standard dispute process so that I can confirm your identity, but you remain anonymous for other judges. I don't expect to have to invoke this rule, but it's here if necessary.
Power
SpoilerStart from a baseline score of 3.
Up to 0.75 point of bonus or penalty for versatility. Do you have a variety of options or are you a one trick pony that can easily be shut down?
Up to 1.25 points of bonus or penalty for how well you do the things that you do. For example, if you're a front line fighter, how good are you at hurting things?
Elegance
SpoilerStart from a baseline score of 4.
Each failure to qualify for a non-secret ingredient thing results in a 0.5 point deduction.
A rule interpretation which is highly questionable or likely not to fly at the average table will result in a penalty of up to 0.25 points depending on severity.
Up to 0.75 points of bonus or penalty based on the overall flow of the build. A clean, flowing progression will score more points, while a dip-happy build may be penalized.
Up to 0.25 bonus points if the build just screams classy.
Note: As it's particularly relevant to this challenge, I'm going to explicitly say that I will not punish the use of an Otyugh Hole to gain Iron Will.
UoSI
SpoilerStart from a baseline score of 1.
I will award bonus points for every class ability or prerequisite that I see used in some way. The more integral the use is to the build, the larger the bonus.
If the build really captures the feel of the SI, I'll award an additional 0.25 point bonus.
A build which fails to qualify for the SI or uses no levels of the SI receives a 0 in this category.
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2013-07-06, 10:42 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2011
- Location
- The last place you look
- Gender
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLVII
Question– Do I include bloodline levels, or can I assume they've been taken? Or in general, how do they work?
Last edited by Razanir; 2013-07-06 at 10:53 PM.
Avatar by Venetian Mask. It's of an NPC from a campaign I may yet run (possibly in PbP) who became a favorite of mine while planning.
I am a 10/14/11/15/12/14 LG Clr 2
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2013-07-07, 12:41 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2006
- Location
- Denver, CO
- Gender
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLVII
Well, this looks interesting. Already have a couple of stubs forming in my mind.
avatar by urodivoi
Just a note, I enjoy mixing d20 Modern with D&D
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"We are Legion. … Our numbers will darken the sky of every world." - Sovereign/Nazara, Mass Effect
"Good. Then we will fight in the shade." - Dienekes, Histories 7.226
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2013-07-07, 05:46 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2006
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLVII
I should be able to get back in the saddle with this one. Competing.
EDIT: Are we to assume that the references in the text to "Smite Evil" are a typo, or does Text Trump Table here, giving the result of 1/day Smite Fey, and 2/day Smite Evil by 10th level?Last edited by Amphetryon; 2013-07-07 at 05:54 AM.
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2013-07-07, 06:09 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2013
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLVII
Count me in on this one.
EDIT: I believe we can say that the inconsistency in the smite fey ability is merely a typo.Last edited by kellbyb; 2013-07-07 at 09:33 AM.
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2013-07-07, 08:49 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2013
- Gender
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2013-07-07, 08:51 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2007
- Location
- Bellona
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLVII
As a judge, I am going to assume it is meant to be smite fey 3/day, unless the Chairman says otherwise.
Optimization Showcase in the Playground
Former projects:
Shadowcaster Handbook
Archer Build Compendium
Iron Chef Awards!
Spoiler
GOLD
IC LXXVI: Talos
IC LXXV: Alphonse Louise Constant
IC XLIX: Babalon, Queen of Bones
IC XLV: Dead Mists
IC XL: Lycus Blackbeak
IC XXXIX: AM-1468
IC XXXV: Parsifal the Fool
IC XXX: Jal Filius
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2013-07-07, 08:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2006
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLVII
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2013-07-07, 09:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLVII
But at the same time, it is rather obvious that it was a copy-paste from the Paladin. I argue that it was an editing oversight on their part, and that it really is supposed to be Smite Fey 3/day.
On an unrelated note, do bloodline levels count toward my 20 levels of build? Also, the age-old question: Do bloodline levels count for unlocking bloodline abilities?Avatar by Venetian Mask. It's of an NPC from a campaign I may yet run (possibly in PbP) who became a favorite of mine while planning.
I am a 10/14/11/15/12/14 LG Clr 2
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2013-07-07, 09:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLVII
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2013-07-07, 09:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLVII
Last edited by mattie_p; 2013-07-07 at 09:22 AM.
Blank 3.5 Character Creator Iron Chef Style Tables (in Google Sheets)
Chairman Emeritus of Zinc Saucier.
Avatar by Derjuin, sing her praises to Elysium.
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2013-07-07, 09:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLVII
Avatar by Venetian Mask. It's of an NPC from a campaign I may yet run (possibly in PbP) who became a favorite of mine while planning.
I am a 10/14/11/15/12/14 LG Clr 2
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2013-07-07, 10:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLVII
My problems with bloodlines as a judge are twofold:
1. Taking bloodlines on top of a 20-level build are problematic for the same reason that level adjustment is problematic - you're essentially getting extra levels for free. While in a game that would be mitigated by periods where you were under-leveled compared to the rest of party due to spending XP on bloodline levels or LA, in a contest like this, it's basically just free levels when compared to other builds.
I'd have far less of a problem with bloodlines if they were taken as separate levels all their own, such as we saw Briggs do back in the Shadowblade competition - Gotterdamerung submitted a Binder 7/Shadowblade 10 with three bloodline levels, but because he was essentially "paying" for those three bloodline levels by submitting a build three levels short, it seemed fair.
2. There are so many mechanics that are just broken to heck and back by bloodlines. In particular, they interact in wonky ways with initiating and pact magic classes, and they let you break skill caps earlier than the game intended you to. Taking a bunch of initiating classes and then bloodlines to bootstrap your initiator level so that you can still squeeze in 9th-level maneuvers on top of the SI, or a level in binder and a level each in, say, Anima Mage, KotSS, and Scion of Dantalion so that three bloodline levels give you a +12 boost to their effective binder level, is so cheesy that I would have to slam any entry that even hinted at doing this.
Like every rule, there are exceptions - the aforementioned Briggs used bloodlines and still managed to nab the gold, gaining enough points in other areas to make up for the elegance hit he took for using bloodlines. But expect at least a minor hit for using them all, and possibly a major hit depending on how you use them.Optimization Showcase in the Playground
Former projects:
Shadowcaster Handbook
Archer Build Compendium
Iron Chef Awards!
Spoiler
GOLD
IC LXXVI: Talos
IC LXXV: Alphonse Louise Constant
IC XLIX: Babalon, Queen of Bones
IC XLV: Dead Mists
IC XL: Lycus Blackbeak
IC XXXIX: AM-1468
IC XXXV: Parsifal the Fool
IC XXX: Jal Filius
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2013-07-07, 11:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLVII
I gotta admit, I have never understood bloodlines. They look interesting and like a challenge to play, but I just don't get how to use them at all. I've read through the section about them many times, and I still just get confused when looking at it.
Also I've always wondered why traits are a Bad Thing here. I mean flaws makes sense; those bonus feats can make a huge difference. But traits give such minor benefits that I've only ever seen them as flavor. So what's up with them here?
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2013-07-07, 11:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2007
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- Bellona
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLVII
Spoilering so as to not derail the current thread:
SpoilerThe best way I've seen them described is that you're taking a level adjustment over time, to represent a powerful force in your bloodline manifesting itself.
Basically, you get abilities as you level up. You "pay" for these levels by spending XP on bloodline levels. These bloodline levels are NOT actual levels and don't increase your ECL, add hit points or skill points, etc., but they do progress any solely level-dependent feature of an existing class, such as caster level or initiator level. They also increase your maximum ranks for skill points - ie, a level 4 character with one bloodline level can have as many as 8 ranks in a given skill, even though the bloodline level itself doesn't grant her any skill ranks.
So, used as (I believe) they were intended, it's like a slightly less painful level adjustment. Because bloodline levels don't boost your ECL, you can make up the XP difference between you and the rest of your party eventually. And while in the end they are less powerful than an LA +3 template typically would be, you do at least get to improve some of your existing class features, and you don't sit as far behind on the level curve.
Where the abuse comes in is not from the intended benefits of bloodlines, but from the way bloodlines interact with other classes, break the skill cap, etc. For example, many classes have skill rank requirements as a way to prevent you from entering early. Bloodlines can mean early entry, since you boost your max ranks in a skill but don't actually go up in ECL.
Also, some classes have level-dependent features that get wonky when things advance them. For example, Knight of the Sacred Seal says you add your levels in KoSS to your binder level. Well, now a level in a bloodline counts as an additional level in all of your existing classes for things like CL and EBL. So a Binder 6/KotSS 1 would ordinarily have an EBL of 7. Add in a single bloodline level, which boosts the EBL of binder by 1. But it also boosts your effective levels in KotSS by 1 as well, so that single bloodline level raised your effective binder level by 2, without even raising your ECL. Add in a level in, say, Scion of Dantalion, and now each bloodline level effectively raises your EBL by 3. And so on.Optimization Showcase in the Playground
Former projects:
Shadowcaster Handbook
Archer Build Compendium
Iron Chef Awards!
Spoiler
GOLD
IC LXXVI: Talos
IC LXXV: Alphonse Louise Constant
IC XLIX: Babalon, Queen of Bones
IC XLV: Dead Mists
IC XL: Lycus Blackbeak
IC XXXIX: AM-1468
IC XXXV: Parsifal the Fool
IC XXX: Jal Filius
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2013-07-07, 12:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2013
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLVII
I am in. In fact i submitted already due to RL. I might regret this though Shooting for Elegance 1.5
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2013-07-07, 12:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLVII
SpoilerWell dang. Alright then, thank you for the lesson. They still seem interesting at least, for a player who doesn't abuse them. I might read over the section again.
There's already a submitted build? Well wow. I commend you Korahir. I now have an idea for a build, but the way I see it there will be high Originality and hopefully UotSI, but I can see Elegance taking a hit and probably Power. Still, I feel the idea is fun enough for a try.