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2020-10-24, 01:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency
None of this says the weapon has left your hand until it's been fully resolved.
On the bolded bit... to suggest otherwise would mean rolling damage would be step 4 of making an attack... Which doesn't exist. Both are required to successfully resolve an attack that has hit. They're part of the same step, distinctly not separate. If you hit, the damage happens.
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2020-10-24, 01:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2020
Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency
In order to make a ranged attack, the character is required to throw the weapon.
If the weapon is still in hand you did not throw the weapon and therefore do not have permission to make a ranged attack.
Step 3 literally requires you to make one roll. Check the results. Then make the other roll only on hits.
If you ignore plainly stated rules and add "simultaneous" into the rules you are house ruling. If that works for you, great! House rules don't work in my situation. Only RAW and SAC.Last edited by ThorOdinson; 2020-10-24 at 01:40 AM.
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2020-10-24, 01:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2018
Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency
That’s a bit of a paradox then. Because the character can’t throw the weapon until I make an attack (step 1 must be satisfied, after all), but you’re saying I can’t attack until the character throws the weapon.
Congratulations! Your house rule means that attacks with thrown weapons are impossible! In fact, *all* attacks are impossible, because if a character can’t throw neither can they swing, swipe, stab or cast!Last edited by SpanielBear; 2020-10-24 at 01:46 AM.
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2020-10-24, 01:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency
Last edited by ProsecutorGodot; 2020-10-24 at 01:44 AM.
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2020-10-24, 01:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2020
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2020-10-24, 01:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2018
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2020-10-24, 01:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2020
Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency
And it was proven before that you confuse player and character. And you are still doing it.
The character throws the weapon to make a ranged attack. If he does not throw the weapon he does not have permission to make a ranged attack.
Provided the character throws the weapon, the player has permission to apply Steps 1 to 3 to resolve the attack.
When damage rolls are made, the character does not have the weapon "in one hand" so the Dueling fighting style does not apply.Last edited by ThorOdinson; 2020-10-24 at 01:55 AM.
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2020-10-24, 01:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2018
Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency
Who or what is the character throwing the weapon at, if it is being thrown before the attack starts and step 1, “identify target” has not been fulfilled?
If the target has been identified, the attack process is in effect and must be played out in full, or else it isn’t an attack as steps have been missed.
Or perhaps, if I am as you say confusing player and character, you could tell me: Who identifies the target? The player or the character?Last edited by SpanielBear; 2020-10-24 at 02:02 AM.
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2020-10-24, 02:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2020
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2020-10-24, 02:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2018
Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency
So... the character identifies a target independent of the player? Or the character throws an axe randomly and just hopes to God a goblin gets in the way?
(My position, to be clear, is that both of those are incoherent and RAW is fulfilled by the player choosing a target and starting an attack whilst the character has weapon in hand. To say otherwise invites the paradox.)Last edited by SpanielBear; 2020-10-24 at 02:06 AM.
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2020-10-24, 02:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2020
Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency
The rules don't ask the character to identify the target. The rules ask the player to identify the target.
The rules are clear and straightforward. As long as you don't try to force weapons that have been thrown somehow back into their hands in order to get a damage bonus you don't qualify for, everything works out fine.Last edited by ThorOdinson; 2020-10-24 at 02:10 AM.
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2020-10-24, 02:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2018
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2020-10-24, 02:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2017
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Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency
Glad we've identified that PC's know they're in a game world and have no agency of their own.
Suggesting that the character can't identify their target before they throw the weapon, which you claim must happen before an attack is initiated, makes no sense. It making no sense here suggests that this probably isn't how the order of events occurs.
You still haven't put forth a compelling argument that the weapon leaves their hands before step 3.Last edited by ProsecutorGodot; 2020-10-24 at 02:12 AM.
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2020-10-24, 02:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2018
Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency
The rules are clear and straightforward, but you are insisting that a weapon be forced out of a characters hand before an attack is made. Why is it leaving their hand if not as part of an attack on an identified target? Which implies, as has long been suggested, that the rules can lead to both interpretations.
Last edited by SpanielBear; 2020-10-24 at 02:16 AM.
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2020-10-24, 02:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2020
Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency
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2020-10-24, 02:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2018
Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency
How does a fictional character do anything without the players involvement? It cannot be the case that the player waits for the character to satisfy a condition- the character can *only* act on the intentions of a player.
I put it to you that the rules for thrown state “you can throw the weapon”, not “you must”. I also put it to you that the rules for thrown can be satisfied as part of and by completion of the attack action- but so too can the damage roll.
(“You can” is an if-then statement. It is not an if-and-only-if-then statement)Last edited by SpanielBear; 2020-10-24 at 02:33 AM.
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2020-10-24, 02:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2020
Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency
The "can" is a permission to throw a weapon to make a ranged attack that is provided by the Thrown rule. You do not otherwise have that permission. Logically then you must satisfy the condition for the permission or you don't get the permission.
For you to have a RAW argument you must follow the rules.
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2020-10-24, 03:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2017
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Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency
So what you're suggesting, by your logic, is that it doesn't matter what direction I throw the weapon in, it can suddenly find a target in any direction since I must throw it (no defined distance or direction) before I can choose a target, which would define a distance and direction?
Because that doesn't seem logical to me.
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2020-10-24, 03:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2018
Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency
Au contraire.
“Can” by any English definition is open. “You can run” does not mean “you cannot walk”.
“You can throw the weapon” simply means that is one way in which a ranged attack can be made. It is only inclusive. “You can throw the weapon to make a ranged attack” does not as a statement exclude any other methods by which a ranged attack might be made.
Now, it is true that the rulebook doesn’t suggest any other means by which a ranged attack is made. However-
A) that does not matter. It is not a rule that *must* be fulfilled, as if it was that would have to be made explicit.
B) rule 0- the ultimate arbiter is the DM. So while the rulebook doesn’t specify any alternative way in which a thrown ranged attack might be made, it is explicit that any DM can, by RAW, make ruling that does allow for that. And the mere fact that that is possible means the thrown rule cannot be presented as a rule that excludes an attack action unless the conditions are met.
To put it another way-
Let “Throw rule”= A
Let “Attack rule” = B
“If A then B” is true
However,
“If not A then not B” does not necessarily follow.Last edited by SpanielBear; 2020-10-24 at 03:11 AM.
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2020-10-24, 03:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2020
Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency
If you have no other means to get the permission then you have to get the permission in the only way it is provided or you don't get the permission.
If DM fiat / house rule is okay for your needs, Great! That won't work for me. I require a RAW argument for my situation.
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2020-10-24, 03:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2018
Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency
Last edited by SpanielBear; 2020-10-24 at 03:26 AM.
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2020-10-24, 03:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency
Last edited by SpanielBear; 2020-10-24 at 03:20 AM.
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2020-10-24, 03:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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2020-10-24, 03:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2018
Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency
How is DM permission not RAW?
“Ultimately, the Dungeon Master is the authority on the campaign and its setting” (phb, pg 7)
To put it another way, the rules are open, so whether you have permission or not can *only* rely on the DM.
"Thrown
If a weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon to make a ranged attack."
By the strict reading of that rule, without making any assumptions about intent, it only tells you one thing about a weapon that has the “thrown” property- that it can be thrown to make a ranged attack. It doesn’t exclude anything else. It certainly doesn’t say it *must* be thrown to make a ranged attack. Ergo, any other formulation that could be imagined (whatever that might be) is not prevented by this rule.
However, “an attack has a simple structure”. This *is* exclusive- anything that does not have this structure is not an attack. So suggesting that a damage roll -step 3- is outside of an attack- that *is* a house rule by your definition.
One final point (promise):-
“ If you have no other means to get the permission then you have to get the permission in the only way it is provided or you don't get the permission.”
Where does it say that?Last edited by SpanielBear; 2020-10-24 at 04:08 AM.
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2020-10-24, 04:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2019
Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency
I think we've achieved perpetual motion.
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2020-10-24, 04:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2020
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2020-10-24, 04:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2018
Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency
Last edited by SpanielBear; 2020-10-24 at 04:24 AM.
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2020-10-24, 05:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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2020-10-24, 05:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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2020-10-24, 06:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2018
Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency
So sorry, I thought you said you had won, we still going?
Because if we are- you kinda *do* still need to show how the rule for Throw excludes any other reading than yours. You rely on “permission”, and a (house?)rule that in the absence of other instruction you must rely on assumed permission, not DM ruling.
DM ruling is RAW- pg 7 phb
Where are the rules regarding permissions, please?Last edited by SpanielBear; 2020-10-24 at 06:07 AM.