How do wizards solo epic monsters?

[RoboEmperor]

My current train of thought is
1. Find a tarrasque (Legend lore, knowledge checks with moment of prescience, etc.)
2. Fly really, realy high (tarrasques only have reach of 30ft)
3. Assay Resistance + True Casting + Dominate Monster. You have a 10+9(spell level)+9(your int) = 28, and against a will save of 20, you have a 7/20 = 35% of dominating it.
4. Use the dominated tarrasque to tank all of your future encounters
5. Once your tarrasque is tanking v.s. an epic creature like a Xixecal, direct damage it with metamagic'd orbs? Get MORE tarrasques and have them finish the job for you? Epic spell shenanigans?

I feel like I'm doing something wrong. What are some ways of wizards killing epic monsters solo?

edit: I'm looking mostly at pre-epic wizards or low-epic wizards

[SiuiS]

You should be able to, at that point:

Make ice assassin tarrasque mobs
Imprison The tarrasque in a demiplane and have it astral project into the material just in case
Divine the nature of future epic encounters
Plant false prophecies backward into time so that a motley crew of adventures just so happens to be there to handle the grunt work of your encounters
Build an entire network of adventurers to accumulate resources necessary to operate in a McGuffin level


As you adventure, you should encounter BBEGs who do stuff like figure out how to change the orbit of the inner planes to bring fire into high alignment and scorch the earth in an effort to change the political dynamics between the effeeti and the lords of water. As an epic adventurer, you should be able to find these weird quirks of the game world and do them.

If any plan as an epic character doesn't sound like the plot of a villain, you've missed the mark. If you aren't fight if aboleths by changing the words written into the Tablet of Ages to make reality poisonous to them, what are you doing?

[RoboEmperor]

Ice assassins require XP, and the fluff kind of makes it hard to use. I'd like to know a lot of options in case certain things aren't allowed, like WISH LOOPS.

The adventurers aren't technically solo. They aren't dominated, summoned, created, or enslaved creatures. They are actual characters that will soak up the XP and such, but thanks for informing me of that stuff.

You mentioned a lot of end of the world stuff, but I was wondering in terms of more direct ways to kill the epic monsters. I mean arguably you can just pull in a massive asteroid from outerspace and upon impact it will annihilate all life on the world :P

[icefractal]

The Tarrasque is kind of a cheap shot, because it has so many weaknesses. But most of the ELH stuff (anything without full casting of its own) is within the reach of a moderate-to-highly optimized Wizard, without using any NI stuff.

However, there are some changes from facing non-Epic stuff - the "God" spells won't work. The creatures have saves higher than you can probably raise your DCs, and they're more likely to have broad-spectrum immunities which shut down a lot of BFC stuff. Normal summoning is pretty pointless. Even Gate only works if you use it intelligently. That said, there are several tactics I've seen used:

1) Mailman-style Blasting. Just throw a ****load of force or untyped damage at it. For all their immunities, not many things can resist point-blank annihilation.

2) Minions. Mind control is one way. Ice Assassin is another (even without a way to cheat the cost, its still worth it with the right creature). You can go for quantity or quality. Stick them on a timeless or slow-time demiplane so that you can buff the hell out of them and it won't expire. Gate when you need them.

3) Self Buffing. Like #3, except instead of buffing a minion you buff yourself. Only reason I can think of for this is that its easier to break the action economy for yourself than for someone else.

4) Strip away immunities and SR, then throw SoDs at it. Since the saves are usually very high, you'll need to throw a lot, either via Mailman tactics or by bringing a big crowd of minions to spam them.

5) Attrition. Make your own defenses impenetrable, then follow it around and nibble it to death with unresistable stuff.

[Venger]

Ice assassins require XP, and the fluff kind of makes it hard to use. I'd like to know a lot of options in case certain things aren't allowed, like WISH LOOPS.

just cast it as a SLA. there are plenty of ways to go about it.

[RoboEmperor]

5) Attrition. Make your own defenses impenetrable, then follow it around and nibble it to death with unresistable stuff.

This doesnt work because almost every epic monster has super high regeneration :P

So I guess mailman + meatshields is the only way >.<
With metamagic reducers, metamagic rods, and residual magic feat, orb of fire with energy substitution, empower spell, maximize spell, twin spell, and repeat spell can deal 540 damage a turn so that's pretty good.
Or dominated/created super powerful monsters.
Several Iron colossi should be able to kill a lot of epic monsters, but you need to be high-epic to make them

I think the only fluff-friendly way to use ice assassin is to somehow get a piece of the epic monster and make an ice assassin of that epic monster.

[SiuiS]

Epic isn't just gameplay above 20th level. Epic is about the scope of the game. You aren't fighting dragons, you're fighting the king of all red dragons – and such an important figure has a plan, one worthy of his scope as king of all red dragons.

If you just want to know how to kill epic monsters, that can be done pre-epic. Metamagic. Not even the really cheesy stuff. Just lob enough dakka at something and it will die. Sorcerers get to bestow half of their energies as force, wizards can pinpoint weaknesses and pile on that specific damage, clerics are living hurricanes, Druids are sharknados. Split twinned repeated maximized scorching ray with energy admixture does the trick. Sonics do the trick. Be a force missile Mage and take arcane fusion and greater arcane fusion; super chain sanctum spells to fire billions of magic missiles from a single 8th level spell slot. Or be a dragonfire inspiration bard who also brings out inspiration points and arcane strike to unload 10d6+50d4+weapon onto a target.

Damage is easy. Getting around defenses and ablatives and hp with elegance or primacy requires thinking of the existence of the threat as the encounter, not just the monster itself. You said other adventurers will soak up the XP? They won't have any of the XP from the social and religious maneuvering requires to convince gods and prophets that your false prophecy is real, or from any of the obstacles to setting up your opponent's demise before the fight begins. It's all in presentation.

An example: I'm about level 60, and I'm gunning for vecna. I can't just show up and hit him; that won't do anything. I have to attack the metaphysical underpinnings of his godhood and existence. I have to remove the universe's designation of "god" and "immortal" first. And the maneuvering to do that is what epic is about, more than just the high numbers and the crazy monsters.

[RoboEmperor]

Right, so you're suggesting meatshield + mailman as well right? XD

edit: I read your example and yeah... I think I get the picture of what epic means to you. World changing fluff stuff :).

[eggynack]

I don't even really understand the question. You use spells. You don't need crazy tarrasque plans, partially because spells are already great, and partially because the tarrasque is not great. Seriously, it dies against an allip, and fails to interact with anything with flight. If you're facing epic monsters, then use epic spells. Epic spells are better than all the things. Hell, normal spells are better than most things. What is this monster that you need a crazy plan for?

Is the problem this xixecal fellow? You have the ability to be astrally projected from a personal demiplane, followed around by an army of ice assassins (accessed through zodar wishes), with shapechange granted spontaneous access to most things in existence. And that's without epic magic. This creature doesn't even have a serious way of threatening you. Coming up with a plan to kill it eventually is trivial with anything with 9th's.

Edit: Actually, let's just look at the particular creature. He's not immune to a bunch of stuff. He has a low will save. I guess you can cast imprisonment on him. Use action shenanigans and some buffs to make it happen. Fight complete.

[RoboEmperor]

Xixecal is my go-to epic monster punching bag.
I am actually debating whether to play a wizard or a sorcerer in my next game.

I like sorcerer because:
1. I really only use a few spells, so I like having a character being able to only cast a few spells
2. Spontaneous Magic
3. Best mailman ever (wizard can do this too, but much less effective)
4. Doesn't require spellbook

I like generalist wizard because
1. Craft items and golems! (Sorcerer can't because of required spells)
2. Can "level" spells (summon monster I -> SMII -> SMIII) etc. (Sorcerer has really hard time doing this)
3. Can do demiplane god stuff (though honestly I don't really care for it :P)
4. Can research every spell in the game, just takes a couple weeks and gold

I want my PC to be able to solo adventure against epic monsters, so being relatively new to epic stuff, I'm asking what are some ways to kill epic stuff so I can judge whether I should be a wizard or a sorcerer.

I like golems but if I go sorcerer I can't use them, but I can afford a dominate monster on him so I can just specialize in dominating tarrasques end-game since golems are worthless at that point, but then sorcerers lack the divination spells to locate the tarrasque. Also i do enjoy colossi and the Iron colossi seems to be able to hold its own against epic monsters, and wizards can mailman too. But this stuff is off-topic and only I can decide this stuff because the PC has to be one I enjoy to play.

Is the problem this xixecal fellow? You have the ability to be astrally projected from a personal demiplane, followed around by an army of ice assassins (accessed through zodar wishes), with shapechange granted spontaneous access to most things in existence. And that's without epic magic. This creature doesn't even have a serious way of threatening you. Coming up with a plan to kill it eventually is trivial with anything with 9th's.

I'm trying to avoid wish loops via planar binding, simulacrum, gate after gate after gate, zodar, etc. Honestly, I'm also trying to avoid ice assassin XD. But I see that's how you kill your epic monsters. Mass wishes for mass ice assassins, but even this is dangerous because Wish can only replicate up to 8th level spells. Ice assassins are 9th level so DM can start doing partial completion stuff or backfire stuff.

[Rubik]

If you want constructs (even epic golems), just obtain a rod of construct control, from the A&EG. So long as their creators aren't around, you basically get a pet rock T-1000 construct for virtually free.

[RoboEmperor]

If you want constructs (even epic golems), just obtain a rod of construct control, from the A&EG. So long as their creators aren't around, you basically get a pet rock T-1000 construct for virtually free.

I wanna be the creator D:<
But this is getting off-topic XD

[eggynack]

I'm trying to avoid wish loops via planar binding, simulacrum, gate after gate after gate, zodar, etc. Honestly, I'm also trying to avoid ice assassin XD. But I see that's how you kill your epic monsters. Mass wishes for mass ice assassins, but even this is dangerous because Wish can only replicate up to 8th level spells. Ice assassins are 9th level so DM can start doing partial completion stuff or backfire stuff.

The point is just whatever. My final plan didn't even really rely on that stuff. It didn't even really rely on anything. This fight is trivial, and it's trivial by level 17. You're past that, presumably. You're beyond the point where it's trivial. And, no, the DM can't have it backfire. What you do is wish up a scroll of ice assassin, which is a perfectly safe wish, and then you use that. Your problem is that you're too focused on damage. You can get rid of this enemy without even touching its HP.

Edit: Actually, y'know what, let's do this with damage. This creature's immunity to form changing doesn't seem like it stops trait removal, so just cast that on it, removing regeneration, and then plink away at it. Maintaining good distance shouldn't be too challenging, and the only real threat at range is those dragons, which aren't much threat at all. Really, the question isn't how a wizard can kill this fellow. It's how a wizard cannot kill this fellow.

[RoboEmperor]

The point is just whatever. My final plan didn't even really rely on that stuff. It didn't even really rely on anything. This fight is trivial, and it's trivial by level 17. You're past that, presumably. You're beyond the point where it's trivial. And, no, the DM can't have it backfire. What you do is wish up a scroll of ice assassin, which is a perfectly safe wish, and then you use that. Your problem is that you're too focused on damage. You can get rid of this enemy without even touching its HP.

Scrolls of ice assassin would still require you to somehow get the pieces of hair of something :P

Xixecal has a will save of 39, how would a level 17 wizard be able to "kill" him with imprisonment?

Icefractal said epic level monsters' saves are so ridiculous you can't use save or dies or battlefield control spells. I don't see how I could beat that 39 will save specially since it's immune to enervation. Please enlighten :D

[eggynack]

Scrolls of ice assassin would still require you to somehow get the pieces of hair of something :P

You wish for the ice assassin scroll set to the particular creature. You don't need to provide extra material components when using scrolls.

Xixecal has a will save of 39, how would a level 17 wizard be able to "kill" him with imprisonment?

I dunno. Let's say PAO into some high intelligence creature. I'm not sure what the most intelligent monster is, but one probably exists. . Alternatively, it's not like you're starved for attempts, backed up by your choice of astral projection or teleporting combined with action economy screwage. 'Port in, make an attempt, 'port out, and iterate until the thing rolls a natural one.

[SiuiS]

Right, so you're suggesting meatshield + mailman as well right? XD

No, I'm saying focusing on meat shield + mailman is short sighted and if you we any to do that you can but there are better options.

If the situation is "there is an epic monster that is hostile and 30 feet away, roll initiative" yes, damage is all you've got. But that's not how epic encounters go. If I will be fighting a xixecal, I will know about it at least a week in advance and can send myself a message back in time a month or two to rearrange events so that if I do fight I have the edge and also so I don't have to fight.


You don't kill an aboleth in epic levels by hitting it with damage. You kill it by changing the physics of the material plane and the genome of the Prime Aboleth Supernal symbol so that oxygen is lethal to aboleths and they all die retroactively.

I want my PC to be able to solo adventure against epic monsters, so being relatively new to epic stuff, I'm asking what are some ways to kill epic stuff so I can judge whether I should be a wizard or a sorcerer.

If you're going to locate an epic monster and fight it solo, why fixate on damage?

I would learn about it, buff myself so we were evenly matched, and engage it in witty banter while wrestling it. Because it's about the challenge not the winning.

Scrolls of ice assassin would still require you to somehow get the pieces of hair of something :P

Nope. That was required to make the scroll. Since the scroll exists, you've already got the component.

Alternately, get around the component somehow.

[RoboEmperor]

I dunno. Let's say PAO into some high intelligence creature. I'm not sure what the most intelligent monster is, but one probably exists. . Alternatively, it's not like you're starved for attempts, backed up by your choice of astral projection or teleporting combined with action economy screwage. 'Port in, make an attempt, 'port out, and iterate until the thing rolls a natural one.

Ok so you're suggesting 20 castings of any save or die it's not immune to.

[eggynack]

Ok so you're suggesting 20 castings of any save or die it's not immune to.

Sure, whatever. This is a creature without any serious reality warping abilities, and which can't even fly. It's not exactly the hardest fight.

[RoboEmperor]

If the situation is "there is an epic monster that is hostile and 30 feet away, roll initiative" yes, damage is all you've got. But that's not how epic encounters go. If I will be fighting a xixecal, I will know about it at least a week in advance and can send myself a message back in time a month or two to rearrange events so that if I do fight I have the edge and also so I don't have to fight.

...

You don't kill an aboleth in epic levels by hitting it with damage. You kill it by changing the physics of the material plane and the genome of the Prime Aboleth Supernal symbol so that oxygen is lethal to aboleths and they all die retroactively.

...

I would learn about it, buff myself so we were evenly matched, and engage it in witty banter while wrestling it. Because it's about the challenge not the winning.

How do you send messages back in time? o_O
How do you change the physics of the material plane? o_O
How would you buff yourself to be able to wrestle with a xixecal? o_O

Please show your work :D I'm new to this stuff.

[Kazyan]

How do you send messages back in time? o_O
How do you change the physics of the material plane? o_O
How would you buff yourself to be able to wrestle with a xixecal? o_O

Please show your work :D I'm new to this stuff.

Playing a wizard the way GitP says wizards should be played requires the equivalent time and effort investment of a university minor. Do you really want to go down this rabbit hole, or are you comfortable with just throwing a souped-up Orb of Fire at the thing?

[RoboEmperor]

Playing a wizard the way GitP says wizards should be played requires the equivalent time and effort investment of a university minor. Do you really want to go down this rabbit hole, or are you comfortable with just throwing a souped-up Orb of Fire at the thing?

I graduated university and have a very solid understanding of physics, general relativity, etc. LETS GO DOWN THAT RABBIT HOLE! Or point me to a website or something that has that information so we don't flood this thread :P

Though all this stuff might not be useable in my DM's next campaign, which is why I'm looking at souped up orb of fires because it's hard to deny me of that method of killing epic creatures XD.

[eggynack]

Though all this stuff might not be useable in my DM's next campaign, which is why I'm looking at souped up orb of fires because it's hard to deny me of that method of killing epic creatures XD.

Eh, souped up orbs are a bit less menacing in high level high optimization games. The generally few ways to stop them start popping up more often, especially in epic levels.

[Red Fel]

I graduated university and have a very solid understanding of physics, general relativity, etc. LETS GO DOWN THAT RABBIT HOLE! Or point me to a website or something that has that information so we don't flood this thread :P

Though all this stuff might not be useable in my DM's next campaign, which is why I'm looking at souped up orb of fires because it's hard to deny me of that method of killing epic creatures XD.

You really want to go down that rabbit hole? Let's cover a few things, first.

1. Step away from the orbs. You're right. At high levels, and moreso in epic levels, your dakka isn't the source of your power. Blasting is a last resort because you're a pre-epic caster fighting an epic creature and you're not up to creative solutions. When that happens, there's a good chance that Kenshiro said it best: "You're already dead."
2. Save or die? No. Stop that. Epic creatures have epic saves. That won't help you. What you want is your no-save material. While we're at it, SR: No is nice, too. Don't have those spells memorized? Better get on that.
3. Fair fight? Are you mental? Wizards don't randomly stumble into an encounter and win it. Wizards stumble into an encounter, flee via any of a number of contingency (the spell or the plan) spells, then prepare themselves in a private time-slowed demiplane to take precise vengeance. Or, they cast a divination or two at the beginning of the day to see precisely what they'll be encountering, and then prepare accordingly. Under no circumstances do you fight things on their terms. You plan the arena, you prepare the spells, you may even go so far as to force their every move.
4. Epic challenges, generally, come in two flavors: Like normal, but really big, and beyond mortal ken. The former can be handled with combat tactics. The latter can be handled with a philosophy degree.

Ultimately, the problem is that you're asking for a checklist, and that's not how this particular game is played. A Wizard is dangerous because he is prepared for this encounter. If he isn't prepared for this encounter, he spends a few relative moments inside of a private time-slowed demiplane, and returns with a new arsenal of spells prepared specifically for this encounter.

It's a moving target; each encounter requires a specific combination. Fighting a Hechatonchieres is very different from fighting the Atropal, for example. And fighting Asmodeus is an entirely different kind of fighting, altogether. You're not going to get a simple list of "Okay, here's what you have to do."

For non-epic encounters, once you pass a certain threshold, you can rely on a few staples. One or two key dakka spells, some potent BFCs, an OSB or two, and you can handle a lot that comes after you. Epic encounters are different. They require a personal touch. They represent cosmic-level threats, and you don't get into one of those unless you've prepared - not just for an encounter generally, not just for an epic encounter generally, but for that specific epic encounter.

[Crake]

Playing a wizard the way GitP says wizards should be played requires the equivalent time and effort investment of a university minor. Do you really want to go down this rabbit hole, or are you comfortable with just throwing a souped-up Orb of Fire at the thing?

This has to be my new favourite quote on this forum, mind if i sig it?

[RoboEmperor]

Alright, since you mentioned it, how would a wizard kill an Atropal and a Hecatoncheries? Lets say you were taking a happy little walk when suddenly an Atropal/Hecatoncheries appear out of nowhere and tries to splatter your a*s all over the pavement? It's massive initiative means it goes first but before it moves in and slaughters you, your contingency kicks in and you teleport inside your house and you're saved. You then either immediately gate into your time-slowed demiplane or you rest up, prepare a gate, and then gate into your time slowed plane.

Now what?

My sorcerer, although doesn't have contingency, if he somehow was able to survive I would go for the tarrasque strategy, cause it's the only one I know :(
Meat shield + blast!

So how would a wizard handle this?

And please don't say wish loops and ice assassin D:

edit: After more reading, tarrasque mailman fails against both since they both fly and can target me, and although atropal can't kill tarrasque, hecatoncheries can in 1 round, but perhaps 100 cannon fodder would last me 3 turns I need to kill him with empowered maximized repeated twinned orbs of fire.

[Kazyan]

This has to be my new favourite quote on this forum, mind if i sig it?

Ooh, I'm being sigged! Go ahead.

[icefractal]

Is the problem this xixecal fellow? You have the ability to be astrally projected from a personal demiplane, followed around by an army of ice assassins (accessed through zodar wishes), with shapechange granted spontaneous access to most things in existence. And that's without epic magic. This creature doesn't even have a serious way of threatening you. Coming up with a plan to kill it eventually is trivial with anything with 9th's.

At the point you start using NI loops, the fact that you're a Wizard doesn't really matter any more, nor does the nature of the foe. The only differentiating factor is "can this enemy also do NI loops?" If not, you auto-win. If so, you enter an indeterminate state of trying to resolve two arbitrarily powerful forces fighting each-other. Not a whole lot of game left, either way.

NI loops - just say no.

[Sam K]

I wanna be the creator D:<
But this is getting off-topic XD

Well, the way wizards solo epic monsters is by not having a bunch of "I need to do it this particular way or it wont count" rules. You don't break reality by staying within the bounds of reality.

If it helps, think of Gandalf. He didn't spend his entire WBL on a +5 sword of Sauron slaying. He was all "Yo, shortstuff, Biff, Nancy, how 'bouts you motha****as go throw this bling in da' furnace, dawgs!"

[eggynack]

At the point you start using NI loops, the fact that you're a Wizard doesn't really matter any more, nor does the nature of the foe. The only differentiating factor is "can this enemy also do NI loops?" If not, you auto-win. If so, you enter an indeterminate state of trying to resolve two arbitrarily powerful forces fighting each-other. Not a whole lot of game left, either way.

NI loops - just say no.

I suppose. Just seems to me that it's a bit of a sliding scale. There are obvious and trivial ways to accomplish this at most levels of game breakitude, so the only question is how many of those methods you're artificially restricting.

[RoboEmperor]

Well, the way wizards solo epic monsters is by not having a bunch of "I need to do it this particular way or it wont count" rules. You don't break reality by staying within the bounds of reality.

If it helps, think of Gandalf. He didn't spend his entire WBL on a +5 sword of Sauron slaying. He was all "Yo, shortstuff, Biff, Nancy, how 'bouts you motha****as go throw this bling in da' furnace, dawgs!"

I'm just saying I want to be a wizard who creates golems, like my playstyle for this particular wizard would revolve around golems, but despite how unoptimized this is, I wanna still be able to solo epics :P

But I know unoptimized wizards are hard to work with, so I'm asking for examples or methods YOU would use with YOUR wizard so I can perhaps change my wizard to follow yours more to solo epic monsters.

Red Fel and SiuiS seems to be the big shots here so please! Show me an example of your epicness so I may study and analyze it!