Drowtales: The Info Dump

[CWater]

Oh for crying out loud! These three empaths are still alive?! >_<

[eschmenk]

Oh for crying out loud! These three empaths are still alive?! >_<

Why wouldn't they be alive? Earlier Silice stabbed one of them non-lethally and Nishi set the clothing of another of them on fire, but that's the most that anyone did to them. Silice was about to attack the third, but then Silice saw Mel and decided that since Mel was unarmed, she'd just let Mel smack her around for a while. However, Sillice remained concerned that doing so wouldn't be sufficient to convince everyone that she was even dumber than Mel, so when Mel was warned to get out of the way of an incoming attack, Silice made a a bunch of threats while standing still and allowed Shodun to easily blast her out of the building. Meanwhile Nishi had become too concerned that she might do something significantly useful, so she left.

[CWater]

Why wouldn't they be alive? Earlier Silice stabbed one of them non-lethally and Nishi set the clothing of another of them on fire, but that's the most that anyone did to them. Silice was about to attack the third, but then Silice saw Mel and decided that since Mel was unarmed, she'd just let Mel smack her around for a while. However, Sillice remained concerned that doing so wouldn't be sufficient to convince everyone that she was even dumber than Mel, so when Mel was warned to get out of the way of an incoming attack, Silice made a a bunch of threats while standing still and allowed Shodun to easily blast her out of the building. Meanwhile Nishi had become too concerned that she might do something significantly useful, so she left.

*grumblegrumbleincompenentcharactersgrumble*

[HandofShadows]

That is a NICE Golem!

[eschmenk]

So Snady is teaching everyone to automatically assume that anything an ally says is wrong? She has often been annoying, I don't think her smugness has ever come across as this annoying to me before.

http://forums.drowtales.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=19356:

The war golem she had been keeping under lock for years make short work of the Nalsarkoth's defenses around the inn where Snadhya found refuge. But the later is getting ready for their new guest.
The golem core melts metal in it's range, while leaving it's own metal untouched. Its not the only thing it can do, nor will this design be made a common machine. If Nishi was the engineer type back in the days, it made sense that one of her best creation end up used when she finally decide to do something.

Well of course it the design won't be commonly used. That would make far too much sense.

[Vinyadan]

It actually does, though. The Sharen have a "little numbers, extreme quality" mindset. I think it's actually what allowed them to rule so long. They have a relatively small number of troops, compared to the Sarghress and Black Sun, but they are the best trained and equipped, with new blood carefully selected through the twin system. This also works for their war golems. They are few, but ridiculously powerful.
The Sarghress instead go for mass production and huge numbers of troops, the few best of whom become officers. However, this means that they need to feed these people, tens of thousands, in a city with chronic food problems. Result: they are a glass cannon that needs extremely safe routes to the colonies, or they will break, while the Sharen have lower food requirement (assuming that dragons are like crocodiles and therefore consume much less than mammals of the same size) and can survive a shut down of trade routes, with also the know how to optimize on what they have to gain the maximum advantage.

So, I think Nishi's golem is one of these absurdly good items, requiring more skill to build than mere ore.

It could also simply be the equivalent to a Ferrari, there will always only be a few, because they are too costly to produce for most people to afford.

Anyway, I can't but repeat that, had Kern actually named the fact that Nishi is a golem engineer in the comic, this would have been better. That golem came out of nowhere.

[HandofShadows]

No, it's much more likely that its got stuff built into it that is a prototype and/or VERY hard to duplicate. Just because you have some really good golem (or mech or tank or fighter) that does not mean it's cost effective to mass produce it.

[eschmenk]

So, I think Nishi's golem is one of these absurdly good items, requiring more skill to build than mere ore.

It could also simply be the equivalent to a Ferrari, there will always only be a few, because they are too costly to produce for most people to afford.

Anyway, I can't but repeat that, had Kern actually named the fact that Nishi is a golem engineer in the comic, this would have been better. That golem came out of nowhere.

But he would have needed make Nishi seem potentially competent, too. Even if we accepted that Nishi was an engineer, what would make us think that she would have been a good one? We accept that Nishi's affinity is fire, but IIRC we only saw her use it twice. Yes, she managed to set the clothing of a stationary distracted empath on fire, but when she tried to hit Mel, there was no sign that Mel even noticed the attempt. Does this sound like a perfectionist who would have honed their skills to an impressive level?

I could accept that if she were a golem-making engineer, she might have been the only one to have thought of applying her specific affinity to a golem's design, but not that the golem's design would have been so highly optimized that it would have been difficult to replicate. The only thing I could think of that would limit the number of such golems would be if the fire affinity is extremely rare, but would be required in the golem's manufacture or operation. If only Nishi and her descendants could make or use such golems, that would certainly limit things. That's something that would have to be pointed out in the story, though.

The idea that the Sharen are elitist is generally true, but IMO, Nishi's one redeeming quality was that she was unusually humble. If Nishi had reasonable intelligence, it wouldn't have been difficult for her to see that, like it or not, she and Silice were dependent upon the Shargs continued success, so if she knew of something that would help them out, it would be a good idea to share it with them. Yes, that would work against the Sharen retaining any power at the end, but I never got an indication that Nishi cared about that. She didn't seem to want to rule and at least she knew better than to think that having her sisters rule would be a good idea.

Nishi was the Sharen adult I most wanted to root for, but after 50 chapters, I can't find a good reason to do so.

[HandofShadows]

Anyway, I can't but repeat that, had Kern actually named the fact that Nishi is a golem engineer in the comic, this would have been better. That golem came out of nowhere.

Kern did show she was a golem builder and we even saw this particular golem in the shadows. It was a while ago (I think in an earlier chapter) and I don't find the page, but it was shown. Being so long ago I can easily how it was forgotten.

[eschmenk]

Kern did show she was a golem builder and we even saw this particular golem in the shadows. It was a while ago (I think in an earlier chapter) and I don't find the page, but it was shown. Being so long ago I can easily how it was forgotten.

AFAIK, there was only the bottom of this page. That is both too little and too late. I could easily be forgetting something, but AFAIK, Kern's comment about that page was the only thing that said that she had been an engineer. The comic page itself, if anything, only weakens that idea. How would we take her seriously as a golem builder if she had done so little with her golems that she wasn't even sure they still existed until just then?

I realize that Kern's idea is that Nishi just shut down in the aftermath of the revolt and now suddenly decided to rise to the occasion. It just doesn't seem at all realistic the way it has been presented.

Added: I double checked Kern's comment for the page:

Zala's condition worsen, the former leader whose hope was to unite the clans is now but a weak demented woman huddling under a blanket. Seeing her state, Chrys is now determined to go on with her suicidal mission.
As for the last two panels, Nishi is the golem engineer and yet we've never had use any of her machines in the main comci. For that battle to come, i think it's time to have her pulled out one of her old project. With the "peace" between the clans she can have access to it and the chance to bring it out.

Kern said "main comic." Maybe it was established that Nishi was an golem engineer when her golems were used in one of the side comics? In any case, Kern directly contradicted HandofShadows's claim that we saw the golem in the shadows earlier.

The wiki page for Nishi says that she's a golem engineer, but the reference for that claim is just a link to the same Chapter 50 page that I linked to above, even though that page merely demonstrates that Nishi knew where to find a certain old golem. The wiki also reminded me that back in Chapter 43, we found out that Nishi sent people to sneak in and sabotage Sarv's golems at First Landing by removing their cores. That sounds like something a golem engineer might be slightly more likely to prioritize, but Nishi didn't go on that mission and didn't do anything else to indicate she was a golem engineer. That's probably the closest thing to an indication that Nishi had anything to do with golems before the current chapter, though.

I've become increasingly convinced that neither Vinyadan nor I forgot anything from the comic that indicated that Nishi had been a golem engineer.

[HandofShadows]

AFAIK, there was only the bottom of this page.
Kern said "main comic." Maybe it was established that Nishi was an golem engineer when her golems were used in one of the side comics? In any case, Kern directly contradicted HandofShadows's claim that we saw the golem in the shadows earlier.

That's the page I was referring too. It wasn't quite as in the shadows as I remember, but we did see it before. And also we see on this page from a VERY long time ago Nish leading an army of golems.

A thought occurred to me about this golem. What if it's not exactly a golem, but something more?

[eschmenk]

A thought occurred to me about this golem. What if it's not exactly a golem, but something more?

Wouldn't that still be a golem? I really tried to think of what that could mean, but the thing is that since golems are magical, there would be very few limitations on what a golem could do and still be a golem.

I actually did think of a few things that I thought would go beyond what a golem could do, but then I realized that to some extent some golems in the story had even done those things!

- Replenish it's own mana. I was going to joke about Nishi's dragon eating people so it could consume their juice, but whoops, the golem used to attack the Shargs before the timeskip had people inside that it was getting power from. Granted, it didn't chew them up and they were the original power source, not something that refilled it, but still it shows that golems can consume mana from people rather than stones, and still be a golem.

- Act independently of a driver. So I was thinking that having an AI would go beyond what a golem is in the story, except that was pretty much the case for Zala's golem, too! OK, the intelligence wasn't entirely artificial, but it wasn't entirely natural, either.

- Be alive. Even that is iffy. I thought Laele was alive, but the wiki page for her defines her as a flesh golem. She's treated mostly like a person and she was killed, so wasn't she alive? Could she be both alive and a golem?

So could possibly be an answer to HandofShadows's question, then, if golems can do all these things and still be golems?

Fortunately, I think that's just academic. I think Nishi's golem probably won't push the boundaries of the definition for golem in Drowtales at all. It still can be a much better than normal golem though, or at least, much better suited for the current task. We've already seen that it's very fast and agile. It can project heat. I'd wouldn't be surprised if it threw flames (not quite dragon breath - it has no mouth). It would be cool if it could fly, but I doubt it could do that.

[HandofShadows]

Snads smirking and lying while telling the truth.

Spoiler

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And Nish walked into a trap. Or did she. Kern stated that the golem had a number of different abilities we have not seen yet. Nish isn't the impulsive type, she's a planner. And I notice that all of Snads best people are in on the trap and that leaves the cure with less protection. Hope Nish makes it. I would like at least one of Diva's daughters not to have turned themselves rotten or gotten killed.

[Vinyadan]

There are many things Nishi might be about to do. It is in theory possible that she wants to kill Snadhya (unlikely). Option 2 could be wanting to go out with a bang, now that her kids are safe, since she knows her days are counted. Option 3 is simply wanting to do something and being infected by Sillicism. Option 4 is just acting as the best bait that there ever was.

[eschmenk]

There are many things Nishi might be about to do. It is in theory possible that she wants to kill Snadhya (unlikely). Option 2 could be wanting to go out with a bang, now that her kids are safe, since she knows her days are counted. Option 3 is simply wanting to do something and being infected by Sillicism. Option 4 is just acting as the best bait that there ever was.

Option 5 is not doing anything much and letting it be obvious that she's just there as a distraction and merely counting on Snady to have been handed the idiot ball and not figuring it out because plot.

Nish isn't the impulsive type, she's a planner.

And Snady certainly should know that. Nishi should probably be acting as if she's infected and therefore acting abnormally. If not that, she should pretend that she has some reason to be there (other than acting as a distraction). So far, she's just acting as if she heard where Snady was and impulsively decided to drop by to tell her off. Yeah, right. We probably aren't supposed to think of that, though.

[HandofShadows]

Nish and Chrys brought along a few friends!

Now I hope Nish is a VERY good golem enginer.

[CWater]

...Weren't Chrys & co. supposed to be stealthy? Looks like it was just to get a surprise round.

[HandofShadows]

Getting a drop on the ones about to ambush Nish certainly counts as being stealthy to me.

[eschmenk]

Getting a drop on the ones about to ambush Nish certainly counts as being stealthy to me.

Incredibly stealthy and probably other things, too. They either had to have infiltrated before Nishi began her distraction or they had to have moved damned fast because Nishi was moving so fast.

I could believe that An'jin could clear a path for Crystel, but Sara? She's so big she'd be rather hard to miss and she doesn't even seem to understand what to do. Standing there grinning and letting the enemy see you, then saying "Hey!" isn't being very stealthy, fortunately for Shinae's sake! And who else came? The larger the group, the less it makes sense that they would have made it.

Now I hope Nish is a VERY good golem enginer.

Nishi would need to be an incredibly good golem engineer. It's not just Snady and her people that she would have to worry about; the Nal'Sarkoth forces should be converging on her team now. I suspect that Kern will just ignore that fact, though. If Nishi made quick work of Snady, Nishi could probably control the situation even if the Nal'Sarkoth forces converged, but I'd be very surprised if that happened.

http://forums.drowtales.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=19360:

Nishi fully expected her sister to have something ready and as long as Snad beleived she could charm her way in, the trap wouldn,t be set.

I'm sure that Kern meant "sprung." But Snady sprung a bunch of traps recently: The flower poison, the glutton demon in Snady's home, the empaths and Shinae, etc., at Snady's home. Nishi must have counted on Snady badly underestimating her, then. Nishi must have thought that Snady would actually believe that Nishi would charge out there all by herself, then just sit and listen to Snady talk. Heck, even Silice wouldn't go without bringing people with her! How pathetically had Nishi been behaving when around Snady to make Snady think that?

I think it's funny that Snady managed to know in advance where Nishi would blast through a wall, yet couldn't figure out that Nishi was up to something more than that. Unless people at that level can sense each other's auras from far away, but in that case, how would it be possible to set traps for them?

[HandofShadows]

I guess you missed that she just blasted the thee empaths. There was no way of sneaking up on them.

[eschmenk]

I guess you missed that she just blasted the thee empaths. There was no way of sneaking up on them.

Oh, hey! The empaths just let themselves get blasted! Cool!

No, I didn't spot that. That makes things even funnier.

Added: Unfortunately, from the artwork, that couldn't have been them. The empaths were behind and to the left of Shady. The shot hit behind and to the right of her. But if we ignore that (Nishi seemed to keep moving around compared to Snady's position, too) then there was only one pillar (two openings) between their position and Shinae's so it's pretty funny that they let themselves get blasted from such a short range after Crystal's attack would have drawn their attention that way.

[Vinyadan]

The empaths are behind Snadhya, to her left, while the blast came from her right. So I don't think they were hit.

Sara could have just flown in among the debris. In general, the Green Clan is divided, so it's possible that they were actually seen by some who didn't care about them. Or they could just have said "we're looking for Snadhya". She gets visitors sometimes, and they could even play the part of being part of her soldiers, if needed. In general, however, I hope there will be an explanation.

I wonder if the empaths are making everyone smile creepily. Shinae, Sara, the Summoner, Snadhya... Maybe Chris has a huge smile beneath her veil.

[eschmenk]

Ah, you ninja'ed my edit.

Or they could just have said "we're looking for Snadhya". She gets visitors sometimes, and they could even play the part of being part of her soldiers, if needed.

If so, I hope Crystel removed her "I'm a bandit" mask. OK, that's just my impression; it probably doesn't apply in-world. It's normal for her to wear it. But for me as a reader, I wouldn't be inclined to trust someone dressed up like that. Since they were trying to be stealthy, the mask struck me as over-the-top and funny on Chrystel.

[HandofShadows]

New page.

Spoiler

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Well, THAT is an expresion we don't see Snads make often. And Floor Dragon meet Golem Dragon. Golem Dragon meet your LUNCH! Nish and company are doing well, so far.

[eschmenk]

Well, THAT is an expresion we don't see Snads make often.

You must be seeing something different than that I'm seeing. At the top of the page, she has a somewhat larger smile than normal, but we've seen her smile like that when she thinks things are going well. The smile she has at the bottom is very typical satisfied smile, with her eyes a little wider as if she's interested in what's going on. At worst, her face looks a little vapid, but it does that sometimes. There is no indication on the page that Snady knows that anything's wrong yet. At worst, she's realizing that Nishi will put up a enough of a fight to make it interesting. Still, being interested is not unusual for her.

What's funny is that so many people in the forum can't see what's on the page. According to the initial comments in particular, they are often seeing what they want to see, not what's there. So they are saying Snad has an "Oh, crap!" kind of facial expression, even though it's not drawn that way at all. To be fair that happens sometimes in comments elsewhere, too. Also, some of the latter comments are correcting the earlier ones, so a least some people can interpret the page rationally.

-------

On the previous page, there was a person crouching down by a tree near Snady. What are they doing now?

[Vinyadan]

I don't think the smile at the bottom represents satisfaction. It looks more like cold concentration to me, although it's a kind of face you don't see very often, and it's an expression that actually doesn't try to convey the inner feelings of the person doing it. In general, Kern is very good with expressions. I think he chose this one exactly because he wanted there to be some doubt about what it meant, and it can be a oh no face, if the person making it has had her smile frozen on her lips.
I don't think it's satisfaction, because those eyes don't look satisfied to me. I also don't think it's fear, because Snadhya surely has some other weapons.

[eschmenk]

I don't think the smile at the bottom represents satisfaction. It looks more like cold concentration to me, although it's a kind of face you don't see very often, and it's an expression that actually doesn't try to convey the inner feelings of the person doing it. In general, Kern is very good with expressions. I think he chose this one exactly because he wanted there to be some doubt about what it meant, and it can be a oh no face, if the person making it has had her smile frozen on her lips.
I don't think it's satisfaction, because those eyes don't look satisfied to me. I also don't think it's fear, because Snadhya surely has some other weapons.

OK, but think about what you are saying. Yes, I could easily see Snady using that expression when things are going wrong and she's trying to pretend otherwise. That's because it doesn't convey that she's worried. Having the corners of her mouth turned up like that isn't a natural "cold concentration" look or worried look. If you conclude that she's worried, you must be using some other information -- not the way she looks -- to do so. (BTW, if she's pretending now, it must be a matter of habit, because she wouldn't expect anyone to be paying attention to her facial expression.)

You are right, her eyes don't convey satisfaction, they convey interest, as I said. The smile (corners of her mouth upturned) conveys satisfaction (accurately or not). They eyes don't contradict satisfaction, though. Think about this: What expression would she have if she was watching a serious play that she expected to be pretty good, and there was an surprising plot twist that made her think it might be better than she expected, but she wasn't sure yet. Wouldn't it be exactly that face?

I also agree that Kern is doing a good job of conveying facial expressions. But think of the sequence of thoughts Snady is going to go through.

1) Everything is going great. This will be a walk in the park.
2) Oh, that was interesting! This may be more fun than I expected.
3) Huh. This is going to be a serious challenge.
4) All right. It's time to get serious.
5) Crap! I could be in big trouble.
and so on.

To me, Kern's facial expression is saying that Snady is at #2 now. She's still a ways away from #5. (If she's at #4 or #5, she hiding it -- so it's incorrect to say that we see it.)

I also disagree that it could be "an oh no face, , if the person making it has had her smile frozen on her lips." If the person had the smile frozen on their lips, it's a dazed face, not an "Oh, no" face. It would mean that they are too stunned to be able to get to the "Oh, no" face. It's roughly the same as the vapid, "LOL, what?" alternate interpretation that I mentioned. But again, you have to be using other information to conclude that's what's happening. After all, the idea is that the person's brain is stunned or too stupid to figure out what's wrong, so their facial expression can't reflect that knowledge. The person is stuck in #2 and never got past that.

[eschmenk]

New comic

Kern wiffs a lot and he certainly hits his share of foul balls, but sometimes he smacks the ball all the way out of the park.

[Vinyadan]

Well, this looks pretty cool.

[eschmenk]

Now where were we?

Ah, yes, a duel to the death with only our raw power as weapons!

That's where we were? How do the golems and summon and demon and magic stones fit into that?

New page comment:

Chrys goes on to seek the cure while everyone else fights on.

And there she goes... Maybe some good will come out of this after all.

Well, this looks pretty cool.

Well, the fight betwen Nishi and Snady does, but the ambushers and ambusher-ambushers (counter-ambushers?) separated far too cleanly. How could it be that after attacking each other, none of them wound up dead or even bleeding? You don't win battles by letting your enemies recover like that! That kind of ruined the fun of the Nishi-Snady duel for me. I did like the bottom of the newest page, though. If that keeps up and the rest of the fights don't seem too fake this time, it should be good. We'll see.

With Chrystal leaving the scene, unless the empaths panicked and fled, Nishi's remaining forces should be badly outnumbered, though. There's just Anjin and Sara, right? As it is, they had better hope that Shinae chases after Chrystel and the empaths are completely gone.