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  1. - Top - End - #541
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: MTG Share your Card Designs II

    Quote Originally Posted by -D- View Post
    Yeah, but that's the thing. We're not calling it design mistakes, but Storm scale.
    So you're saying that the fact they're trying to make something constructive out of their mistakes is a bad thing?

    Sure he points that old mechanics were wrong, but not so much recent ones.
    The storm scale for blocks I just mentioned is literally about the mechanics of the past year, how much more recent do you want it?

    And his blog isn't really something most Magic player knows about.
    Maybe not kitchen table players, but of LGS attendees it's probably a lot.

    Sure, now, but there is no reason you have to have MTG's mana system. I agree it's too late to change now. But in past it probably wasn't.
    What point are you even trying to make? They could have made Pokemon instead of Magic if they had just made Pokemon instead of magic.
    You say other games have done fine without it as if Magic isn't the most successful one.

    True. However, one truly "valid" point of view here isn't either me or you, so arguing about it is pointless.
    My point is saying "This is subjective so no one is right" doesn't add anything to the discussion. We can put forth arguments for our stance without anyone needing to be objectively right.

    Also update your definition - Dog **** isn't food. If you eat something only to vomit it, that's not considered food.
    Flies eat it.

    Speaking of animal ****. Elesh Norn is a bend, according to Maro [1][2]
    Nope, Elesh Norn is definitely a break. She doesn't bend what white does just a little, she does something that is completely different from what the color normally does.
    I know he tries to use the justification that New Phyrexia was bleeding black effects into other colors, but that isn't an argument. A white card doesn't get to do black things just because the plane has a black theme any more than a white/black hybrid card gets to do black things.

    Hope you see why I don't want to discuss this with you. What you consider "common sense", isn't what RnD considers "common sense"
    How is that saying nothing. I worked on assumptions A) explained thouse assumptions, then moved to assumptions B) and explained them.
    Saying you had assumptions isn't saying anything. You didn't explain the assumptions, you claimed they were there.
    The question was simple, why did you make a point you later claim is wrong?
    I am not wasting my time arguing with you just for you to bring up arguments you don't even believe in yourself, and then just toss them by the wayside and act like nothing had happened after I've spent so long debunking them.

    To me it looks like a break, that is justified by Soul Flayer "inheriting" evergreen abilities of whatever it exiled.
    This is not an argument. You cannot just say "to me it looks like", that's not an argument.
    I even explained it, Soul Flayer getting nonblack abilities from the graveyard is no different from black getting to reanimate a nonblack creature.
    It's not like Soul Flayer is the first card that does this, it's been established by several cards that this is how it works.

    You're being picky for no reason. They don't all have helmets.
    Because they dropped them. There are helmets on the ground. We can see the heads of four pigs, and three of those have a helmet very close, with the fourth near the corner so you wouldn't be able to see the helmet if it had fallen of. The flavor text of the card is:
    Another imminent battle subsided in busy snuffling and carefree rooting.
    How is it not showing soldiers being cursed?

    Don't say the card depicts sailors being cursed when literally nothing about the card points towards this.

    Yes. But the effect is similar, modulo having to kill the creature. You don't have to even expend a card to do it. If a creature dies in combat, you take control of it.
    Then you need combat to happen. How likely do you think your opponent is to throw away his creature if he knows you'll get it?
    Do you not realize the massive difference between killing a creature and getting an effect, and getting an effect when the creature dies?
    The effects aren't similar. That's like saying "Destroy target creature" and "Destroy target attacking creature" are similar. If someone claimed white don't get "Destroy target creature" you wouldn't bring up a card with "Destroy target attacking creature". It doesn't do the same at all.
    Threads of Disloyalty has a pretty severe limitation, but saw play as a 3 mana mind control. Minion's Return has seen no play.
    I can't fathom how you can speak with such confidence when you have such a critical lack of understanding such fundamental parts of the game.
    Rise From the Grave can give you an opponent's creature too if it dies, is that a mind control too then?

    If it's hard unblockable with a downside, then by extending that same logic black should get 2: CARDNAME is indestructible until end of turn. They already get indestructible with a downside.
    I'll spell it out real simple for you.
    Black doesn't get indestructible without a restriction/downside. Black gets indestructible on one shot effects without a restriction/downside.
    Black doesn't gets unblockable without a restriction/downside. Black should be able to get unblockable on one shot effects without a restriction/downside.

    Sure, but white gets a protection.
    Protection isn't used very widely anymore.
    Seriously, since 2018 in standard legal sets there have been printed 10 cards with protection, 5 of them not in white.

    White gets hard to block as well. Mostly as fliers
    It has flying, and it gets to give flying. It doesn't get to give other hard to block.

    and protection creatures,
    Protection creatures aren't hard to block. They can only not be blocked by one color. By comparison intimidate and fear can only be blocked by one color.
    Protection is a powerful keyword, but it isn't a "hard to block" keyword.

    with conditional unblockable.
    We've been over this. I've already debunked this claim. You shoved the cards, I went over all of them, and there were two cards, with the same, very relevant restriction, printed 12 years apart.

    The way regenerate function is considered reactive.
    By who? Where did you find this senseless distinction and why do you think it matters?

    For it to "work" your creature needs to be destroyed, then the effect is replaced with tap and removing damage and destroy effects.
    That makes no sense. Indestructible doesn't do anything if the creature wouldn't be destroyed either. Giving Indestructible doesn't do anything proactively.

    It can be used proactively as well, so it's not strictly reactive like "regenerate".
    No it can't. It can only be used when the opponent attacks or blocks. Where is the proactive part?

    Sure, and it might be occasionally useful in constructed, but the effect isn't that impactful.
    On the turn you kill them it's effectively a removal spell.
    Like "Target creature is unblockable" it's a small effect that can be good for cheap in the decks that want that effect.
    Gain 3 life isn't that impactful either, doesn't mean cards that gained three life wasn't played for gaining 3 life, looking at you Centaur Healer.
    Why would a 2 power flyer for two mana also have a very impactful ability strapped onto it.

    Target creature can't block, won't be too different than giving one or more things "can't block".

    That's the same. Can't block is the same as can't block. What did you mean to say?

    You make a ridiculous statement like having never seen these effects in constructed, and then when I give you 10+ examples you just flat out ignore it.

    Blue gets to exile and return from exile any type of card, it having access to subtype isn't an issue IMO, even if not a subtype it particularily cares about.
    That's just not true. I just gave you some examples for how it doesn't work. The colors are associated with different abilities, but some of those abilities get shifted into different abilities when they care about a card type the color doesn't care about.
    That's why black gets tutors, but creature tutors are green, or green gets regrowth effects, but regrowthing instant and sorceries is red and blue.
    Blue cares about the opposite of permanents, so a card that only finds permanents doesn't feel blue. And in the same way white cares about permanents, so a card that might not otherwise be white might suddenly be because of the restriction.

    That's a different effect. White can put things from graveyard to the battlefield.
    Why is it meaningfully different? Why is it okay for it to return but not to cast?

    Also, it's usually a one-off effect or one that requires some risk, like attacking.
    Sevine's Reclamation gets to return three things.
    Attacking isn't about being a risk, it's about being on creatures so it's a meaningful trigger, it wouldn't stop being white if it was an upkeep trigger.
    There's also
    Landfall
    Rebound
    Historic Spells
    Heroic

    Playing from the graveyard is black or green (for lands).
    Why can't it be white? White already recurs small stuff, why shouldn't it be able to cast it?

    To make things worse, this effect is VERY VERY VERY rare. And isn't something you can use for general "card advantage".
    It doesn't need to be the standard way for white to get card advantage, but even just two or three more of these effects would help out mono white loads in EDH. And it's not like you would need more than one in standard.

    Ok. But then look at white, card don't just take other color's effect and make it "card advantage". If you're going to give it card advantage without looking what others do, why not just give white Ancestral Recall, and call it a day.
    But it doesn't just do what other colors do. Green and black likely wouldn't care about cmc, white does because it's the weenie color.
    Black doesn't get to return artifacts and enchantments.
    I guess green could return enchantments, but that is much more a white effect, and green also doesn't care about enchantments, while white does.

    My idea wasn't to give it "quantitative card advantage" but "qualitative card advantage".
    Card selection is the word you're looking for.
    Card selection doesn't solve the issue. You can give white as much scry as you want, it's still going to run out of cards.

    The Council of Sages would be a build-around. Not something you can plop anywhere.
    White already has plenty of build around card advantage, the problem is it lacks general card advantage.

    Your ideas also don't work outside of rare rarity, impulse draws are more broadly available.
    1. It doesn't need to be generally applicable, every little helps.
    2. Rare is where the issue is. White is fine in limited.
    3. You don't get a lot of repeatable impulsive draw on uncommon either, these effects at less than rare would likewise be one shot effects.
    4. Bring back from the Beyond could easily be on one shot effects. Look at this for instance:

    Tithe Collection - 2W
    Sorcery - U
    Exile the top three cards of your library.
    At the beginning of your next upkeep, for each permanent card among those cards, you may tap an untapped creature you control. If you do, put that card into your hand.


    War preparatios - 2WW
    Sorcery -
    Look at the top five cards of your library. You may reveal up to one creature, enchantment and artifact card from among them and put those cards into your hand. Put the rest on the bottom of your library in a random order

    It's not draw, it's not in another color and it can draw multiple cards, without being too powerful.
    This is definitely on color, I'm just worried this kind of effect requires too much build around and is too difficult to balance. Very few decks will be able to hit with this reliably.
    The issue was that white didn't have enough general card advantage, so making more build around cards doesn't really help.

    Why did you ignore all my suggestions for Consul of Sages?
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  2. - Top - End - #542
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    Default Re: MTG Share your Card Designs II

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    So you're saying that the fact they're trying to make something constructive out of their mistakes is a bad thing?
    Hahaha. No. I'm saying that's not a mistake, that's a Storm Scale. You're not wrong - you're cognitively different.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Maybe not kitchen table players, but of LGS attendees it's probably a lot.
    Citation needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    They could have made Pokemon instead of Magic if they had just made Pokemon instead of magic.
    I don't play Pokemon, but I'm referring to DuelMasters-like mechanic, where each card could serve as a colored mana source. And the change needed to be relatively early in MtG history.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Flies eat it.
    TIL you are a fly. In retrospect, it explains many things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    My point is saying "This is subjective so no one is right" doesn't add anything to the discussion. We can put forth arguments for our stance without anyone needing to be objectively right.
    If it's subjective, then only one opinion matters - i.e. the RnD team, whatever you say is bend/break/bleed is just not important.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Nope, Elesh Norn is definitely a break.
    Citation needed. You might think it's a break, I might think it's a break, but according to RnD, it's not. There is nothing to debate. You're wrong because your definition depends on RnD's interpretation (the Core Mantle articles, Bleeding Cool, etc.) of what a break is. I'm right because I don't use that definition (anything outside of Color pie is a break).

    If your definition depends solely on your own interpretation, then there is nothing to discuss, because that's tautological. E.g. I could say Sun Titan is a break, Elesh is a minor bleed, Flying in Blue is a bend, and that would be an end to it. Can you prove I don't think it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Saying you had assumptions isn't saying anything. You didn't explain the assumptions, you claimed they were there.
    Pretty sure I did. The three rules, the rules that cards had to have that effect in the past to justify it, etc.

    Now my assumptions are - outside of pie? Break. And can you justify it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    I even explained it, Soul Flayer getting nonblack abilities from the graveyard is no different from black getting to reanimate a nonblack creature.
    It's not like Soul Flayer is the first card that does this, it's been established by several cards that this is how it works.
    I'll understand that explanation once you come up with a better framework of what constitutes a bend, break and bleed. One that explains how Elesh Norn is a bend, and how Dovin, Hand of Control is also a bend, how white can get regenerate and blue can attack hands, etc.

    Until then, it's a break, justified by flavor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Because they dropped them. There are helmets on the ground. We can see the heads of four pigs, and three of those have a helmet very close, with the fourth near the corner so you wouldn't be able to see the helmet if it had fallen of. The flavor text of the card is:
    Another imminent battle subsided in busy snuffling and carefree rooting.
    How is it not showing soldiers being cursed?
    Citation needed. This is referencing the story of Circe. It works whether there were sailors or warriors.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Don't say the card depicts sailors being cursed when literally nothing about the card points towards this.
    Other than it referencing the story of Odysseus and his men (sailors, warriors) turned into pigs, nothing points to this NOT being an obvious reference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    How likely do you think your opponent is to throw away his creature if he knows you'll get it?
    How will he know you have it

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Do you not realize the massive difference between killing a creature and getting an effect, and getting an effect when the creature dies?
    In black, that can kill a creature in a million ways, not a huge issue.

    Either way, black gets Mind Control effect, even if this isn't exactly that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Black doesn't get indestructible without a restriction/downside. Black gets indestructible on one-shot effects without a restriction/downside.
    Black doesn't gets unblockable without a restriction/downside. Black should be able to get unblockable on one shot effects without a restriction/downside.
    Ok. I see. It does make logical sense, however, since cards don't align the way I don't see a reason it should.

    Only one color has "Can't be blocked" as primary - Blue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Protection isn't used very widely anymore.
    It's a 2, they are saying it will return. And did return in THB.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Seriously, since 2018 in standard legal sets there have been printed 10 cards with protection, 5 of them not in white.
    Yeah, 5 of them not in white. That's a nice way to say each color/artifact gets about 1 white gets 5 (red gets 2).

    Which is what I said. White gets most of these effects. I didn't say white gets more effects than all other colors combined.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Protection creatures aren't hard to block.
    Literally has the "can't be blocked by X color" in defintion. And white gets to pick protection, so it can, with smart choices, be hard or impossible to block. If a red-green and red-white creature can block, you choose red and have a virtual can't block.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    We've been over this. I've already debunked this claim. You shoved the cards, I went over all of them, and there were two cards, with the same, very relevant restriction, printed 12 years apart.
    Are you just looking at standard again? Because Pioneer has 4 minimum. Printed few years apart (Kaladesh and Theros Beyond Death for instance).

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    By who? Where did you find this senseless distinction and why do you think it matters?
    The way the ability functions. It's a replacement effect. It can only trigger if a creature is destroyed.

    Also they didn't want to gimp the color so much by not giving it instant speed effects. Plus in theory, indestructible can be used "proactively". Like for example Unbreakable formation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    That's the same. Can't block is the same as can't block. What did you mean to say?
    Meant can't be blocked.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    You make a ridiculous statement like having never seen these effects in constructed, and then when I give you 10+ examples you just flat out ignore it.
    Sure. But I never saw it useful in FNM. Granted we do play Modern. And I'm not gonna waste time on going over each and every one. Not when I might or might not be right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    That's why black get tutors, but creature tutors are green,
    Until there is a precedent for a white getting draw, it's pretty pointless to talk about it. I can think of dozens of ways, but the precedent isn't there. Dawn of Hope is a break. Mentor of the Meek is a break, etc.

    If you had a really novel idea, that was never printed before e.g. like impulse draw was, I could see the point. But all these effects have been done before, in other colors.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Why is it meaningfully different? Why is it okay for it to return but not to cast?
    Because giving something infinite casts is problematic. The recursion of cards a la Buyback is problematic. Giving an effect to an enchantment should be +2CMC more.

    Only two cards that can do this recurring is 7CMC Angel that if you don't kill, you're ****ed and a card that for 7CMC returns two stuff from your graveyard. Only one of them is infinitely recurring and it depends on you hitting your Plains. The other one happens twice, so it's a two-shot effect.

    Rest of your examples limit themselves to creatures. And are creatures, that are much easier to handle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Why can't it be white? White already recurs small stuff, why shouldn't it be able to cast it?
    Because it's a better Yawgmoth's Will. Hard to remove, doesn't exile, sure it has some restictions, but you can use it turn after turn after turn. In constructed the CMC won't matter. Other than preventing recursion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    But it doesn't just do what other colors do. Green and black likely wouldn't care about cmc, white does because it's the weenie color.
    Mentor of the Meek cares about small weenies, it's still a break according to MaRo. If Mentor of the Meek is a break, this is as well.

    If you really want a "white draw" have an effect to draw when you play Equipment or Enchantment. That's white and a draw effect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Tithe Collection - 2W
    Sorcery - U
    Exile the top three cards of your library.
    At the beginning of your next upkeep, for each permanent card among those cards, you may tap an untapped creature you control. If you do, put that card into your hand.
    The exile makes it feels more red, although the creature dependence is more of green vulnerabiltiy than white. I do get the Convoke vibe, but that can be green as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    This is definitely on color, I'm just worried this kind of effect requires too much build around and is too difficult to balance. Very few decks will be able to hit with this reliably.
    Well, it depends on set, but generally, you can tweak the permanent types, search window and mana color. As it stands 4cmc draws three cards which is pretty good.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Why did you ignore all my suggestions for Consul of Sages?
    Took too much time replying, I don't have infinite time. They looked Ok.
    Last edited by -D-; 2020-03-13 at 06:56 AM.

  3. - Top - End - #543
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    Default Re: MTG Share your Card Designs II

    Quote Originally Posted by -D- View Post
    Hahaha. No. I'm saying that's not a mistake, that's a Storm Scale. You're not wrong - you're cognitively different.
    A high rating on the storm scale means it's a mistake.
    Are you mad they didn't go "What the hell were we thinking, we are such massive idiots for making that thing"?

    Citation needed.
    You made a claim with no evidence, I made an opposite claim with no evidence, and now I'm the one who needs to provide a citation?
    Also why is the amount of people who know of blogatog even relevant.

    I don't play Pokemon, but I'm referring to DuelMasters-like mechanic, where each card could serve as a colored mana source. And the change needed to be relatively early in MtG history.
    The point wasn't that every game needed mana screw, the point was that magic needed it. In order for magic to not have it it would not be magic. Saying "they could have made some different decisions 25 years ago" doesn't help anything. Also the Dual Masters mana system is way worse than Magic's.

    Also, fun fact, Dual Masters started as a magic the gathering manga, then they changed it to their own card game when faced with legal issues.

    TIL you are a fly. In retrospect, it explains many things.
    Poor attempt at a snide comment, but sure, I'll bite.
    1. I never said it needed to be food for humans, flies eat ****, therefore **** is food under some definitions of the word.
    2. I didn't even say it was food, I said "**** tastes bad" isn't an objectively true statement, yet I think as a subjective statement it holds a lot more truth value than the opposite statement.

    If it's subjective, then only one opinion matters - i.e. the RnD team, whatever you say is bend/break/bleed is just not important.


    Citation needed.
    You've said this enough times now that it has lost all meaning.

    You might think it's a break, I might think it's a break, but according to RnD, it's not.
    It is a break, an outright one. I love the design of Elesh Norn, but it is so obviously a black white gold card. Nothing about the color pie justifies Elesh Norn in mono white.
    You want an example of Maro being wrong? This is it.

    Also, stop playing devil's advocate. You can't at one moment claim they would never admit to a mistake, and then the next act like their word is gospel. Pick a stance and stick to it.

    There is nothing to debate. You're wrong because your definition depends on RnD's interpretation (the Core Mantle articles, Bleeding Cool, etc.) of what a break is. I'm right because I don't use that definition (anything outside of Color pie is a break).
    That's some troll level logic right there.
    They're literally the concepts RnD use to design cards, how can they just be flat out wrong?
    The whole purpose of bends is that they're not outside the color pie, that's why they're bending the pie, but not breaking it.

    If your definition depends solely on your own interpretation, then there is nothing to discuss, because that's tautological. E.g. I could say Sun Titan is a break, Elesh is a minor bleed, Flying in Blue is a bend, and that would be an end to it. Can you prove I don't think it?
    And here we go into maximum over troll I see.
    We don't need solipsism in magic card design.
    Sun titan isn't a break, there is precedence for it's ability. There is no precedence for Elesh Norn. Every bit of criticism Maro had for Augury Adept is true for Elesh Norn.

    Pretty sure I did. The three rules, the rules that cards had to have that effect in the past to justify it, etc.
    So you admit those rules are wrong?

    Now my assumptions are - outside of pie? Break. And can you justify it?
    That's not how any of this works.
    You don't get to just blatantly disregard the rules and substitute them with your own just because you feel like it.
    The entire point of the color pie is that bends are within the color pie and breaks are outside it. If it is justified then it isn't a break, by definition.

    I'll understand that explanation once you come up with a better framework of what constitutes a bend, break and bleed.
    A break is outside the color pie and a bend is within the color pie. That's the definition.
    Is that hard to objective quantify? Hell yeah it is, because game design is hard, and everything isn't as set in stone as you want to to be.

    One that explains how Elesh Norn is a bend,
    She's not, she's about a blatant a break as they get.

    and how Dovin, Hand of Control is also a bend, how white can get regenerate and blue can attack hands, etc.
    I've talked about hybrid cards already.

    Until then, it's a break, justified by flavor.
    If it's justified then it isn't a break, it's a bend.
    A bend does something the color doesn't normally do, but is still within the color pie.
    A break does something the color doesn't normally do, and is outside the color pie.

    Citation needed.
    It now has even less meaning. You simply write this instead of actually engaging with my arguments.

    This is referencing the story of Circe.
    In order to reference it doesn't need to copy everything. I already said this.

    It works whether there were sailors or warriors.
    You claimed they were sailors, I then said they were soldiers, then you doubled down on them being sailors.

    From your initial post it seems like the maritime theme was important to the card's flavor being blue.

    You've still just reiterated this worthless point, rather than engage with my argument, which was that if the card wasn't within blue's pie then they could have just made it white.

    Other than it referencing the story of Odysseus and his men (sailors, warriors) turned into pigs, nothing points to this NOT being an obvious reference.
    I already said that this is referencing people being turned into pigs, but it represents soldiers, not sailors. It is not about Odysseus. It is taking one event that happened to Odysseus and represents just the outcome of that event, not everything that surrounded it.
    The card Titan of Eternal Fire is referencing Prometheus who gave fire to the humans. In Greek mythology he was punished by being chained to rocks, yet the card Chained to the Rocks doesn't depict Titan of Eternal Fire, because it's not the same story, it is taking separate elements from the story and reuses them.

    How will he know you have it
    Have you read the card?
    It doesn't have flash. You cast it at sorcery speed and then they can choose not to block or not to attack.

    In black, that can kill a creature in a million ways, not a huge issue.
    Yes, you have to use a card for it, that is a huge issue. A 2 for 2 is much worse than a 1 for 2. Also the card is mostly meant for limited where people have much less removal.

    Either way, black gets Mind Control effect, even if this isn't exactly that.
    I've already said that, but you don't get to pretend you didn't claim Minion's Return was a mind control effects when it is much closer to a reanimation spell.

    You completely ignore my comparison with Threads of Disloyalty.

    Ok. I see. It does make logical sense, however, since cards don't align the way I don't see a reason it should.
    This isn't an argument. You can't say "it hasn't been done, so it shouldn't be done". The treatment of indestructible in black gives precedence for unblockable with similar restrictions.

    It's a 2, they are saying it will return. And did return in THB.
    They return on spells that give them in white, and they return on color hate cycles, in all colors.
    This is not the same as printing white cards with protection as an evasive keyword.

    Yeah, 5 of them not in white. That's a nice way to say each color/artifact gets about 1 white gets 5 (red gets 2).

    Which is what I said. White gets most of these effects. I didn't say white gets more effects than all other colors combined.
    That's a nice way of ignoring the the part where there are 10 cards.
    And the part where two of the white ones are one-shot effects.
    And the part where one of them isn't even color protection but CMC protection, and is also red.
    There are two white creatures with protection from a color that have been printed in standard legal sets since 2018, one as part of a cycle.
    Giving protection with one shot effects is a white effect, chromatic protection, (choose the color), very likely is still a white effect, but creatures getting protection from one specific color is no longer a common white effect.

    Literally has the "can't be blocked by X color" in defintion.
    It can't be blocked by one color, that's not hard to block. That's 4 colors and artifacts still able to block it. That's like saying "can't be blocked by creature's with flying" is hard to block. It's not. Most of the time you can block it.

    And white gets to pick protection, so it can, with smart choices, be hard or impossible to block.
    It usually only gets to pick them as one shot effects though. It also has a lot more general utility, like a lot more. Protection is defensive more often than it is offensive, so it's a bad case for hard to block. It's also still easier to block.

    If a red-green and red-white creature can block, you choose red and have a virtual can't block.
    Most creature's aren't multi colored though.
    I've played with God's Willing. It mainly blanks removal spells. It doesn't give unblockable very often.

    Are you just looking at standard again? Because Pioneer has 4 minimum. Printed few years apart (Kaladesh and Theros Beyond Death for instance).
    Look at my comment where I replied to this. Stop ignoring my replies.
    None of those creatures are unblockable. One of those cards limits its unblockable to one creature type, one limits it to artifact creatures, and one limits it to red creatures. All of those are heavily powered down versions of protection from [same thing].
    Amrou Seekers were from Time Spiral block, it also effectively just has intimidate.
    So that leaves you with the mechanic "Can't be blocked by creatures with power X or greater", which has only had two copies over 12 years, and which isn't even close to hard unblockable.

    The way the ability functions. It's a replacement effect. It can only trigger if a creature is destroyed.
    Indestructible also only does something if the creature would be destroyed. Regeneration and indestructible does something in the same situations.
    You're making a distinction without a difference.

    Also they didn't want to gimp the color so much by not giving it instant speed effects.
    And because instant speed effects are fully within white. There is no reason for them not to be.
    Proactive cards are very white, but that doesn't mean it doesn't also get to be reactive.

    Plus in theory, indestructible can be used "proactively". Like for example Unbreakable formation.
    So can regenerate. You could make a sorcery that pumped your board and regenerated them and it would work fine.
    Also the fact that indestructible can be used proactively isn't really an argument when it usually isn't.

    Meant can't be blocked.
    Then your claim is wrong. If I have several creatures to swing in with making one of them unblockable might do very little, while making one of your creatures unable to block might do a lot.

    Sure. But I never saw it useful in FNM. Granted we do play Modern.
    Using modern as a basis for what effects are useful is a very limited scope.

    And I'm not gonna waste time on going over each and every one. Not when I might or might not be right.
    I'm not sure what you should go over. You can search them up on MTGtop8. Some of them have only a few showings, but some have a lot.

    Until there is a precedent for a white getting draw,
    There is a presence for white card draw, though most of it is very limited.
    Clues might be the most general.

    it's pretty pointless to talk about it.
    Not when Wizards are looking for a way to make white draw cards.

    I can think of dozens of ways, but the precedent isn't there.
    That's not an argument. If you can think of a way that gives white a unique way of drawing cards then present it, white needs it.

    Dawn of Hope is a break.
    Only because it creates the lifelink tokens itself.

    Mentor of the Meek is a break, etc.
    Mentor of the Meek is probably one of the best examples of card draw in white. It's not a break because it's meaningfully distinct from a green effect.

    If you had a really novel idea, that was never printed before e.g. like impulse draw was, I could see the point. But all these effects have been done before, in other colors.
    No they haven't, not like this.

    Because giving something infinite casts is problematic. The recursion of cards a la Buyback is problematic. Giving an effect to an enchantment should be +2CMC more.
    It's not infinite casts, it lets you cast it once, just like you could return it once. Please explain the meaningful distinction between returning once a turn and casting once a turn.

    Only two cards that can do this recurring is 7CMC Angel that if you don't kill,
    You can trigger it the turn you play it, also that's not an argument. Dying to removal isn't what makes it white.

    a card that for 7CMC returns two stuff from your graveyard.
    Sevine's Reclamation costs 5 to flash back and returns two things.

    Only one of them is infinitely recurring and it depends on you hitting your Plains.
    Why are you disregarding Sun Titan?

    The other one happens twice, so it's a two-shot effect.
    Three times, twice on flashback.

    Rest of your examples limit themselves to creatures. And are creatures, that are much easier to handle.
    White recurs artifacts and enchantments easily too, there is a precedence for this.

    Because it's a better Yawgmoth's Will.
    You do realize it's once a turn right? Yawgmoth's Will gives it all at once.

    Hard to remove, doesn't exile, sure it has some restictions, but you can use it turn after turn after turn.
    Same with Sun Titan.

    In constructed the CMC won't matter.
    Have you ever played constructed? CMC 4 is a lot in most formats.

    Mentor of the Meek cares about small weenies, it's still a break according to MaRo. If Mentor of the Meek is a break, this is as well.
    Well Maro is wrong.

    If you really want a "white draw" have an effect to draw when you play Equipment or Enchantment. That's white and a draw effect.
    Actually it's mostly Auras, enchantments are more green, look at enchantress effects.
    The problem with these is that they're very narrow.

    The exile makes it feels more red, although the creature dependence is more of green vulnerabiltiy than white. I do get the Convoke vibe, but that can be green as well.
    Red doesn't really tap its creatures to do things, white is the color that does that the most.
    Stop looking for petty reasons why an effect that is unique card draw can't be in white, the color that needs it.

    Well, it depends on set, but generally, you can tweak the permanent types, search window and mana color. As it stands 4cmc draws three cards which is pretty good.
    It's draw three extremely rarely though.
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    Default Re: MTG Share your Card Designs II

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Are you mad they didn't go "What the hell were we thinking, we are such massive idiots for making that thing"?
    No, but saying Elesh Norn is a break that shouldn't be printed would be fine too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    You made a claim with no evidence, I made an opposite claim with no evidence
    Extraordinary claims, require extraordinary proofs. From my experience at my LGS no one knows who that guy is, let alone he has a blog, let alone he blogs about magic.

    Mark saving face for Wizards, is like any day of the week. Do you need proof he would do it

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Saying "they could have made some different decisions 25 years ago" doesn't help anything. Also the Dual Masters mana system is way worse than Magic's.
    There was a CCG that was essentially Magic, but without Basic Lands. To this day, I prefer it to Magic. Admittedly, it had its faults.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    You've said this enough times now that it has lost all meaning.
    I've presented my proof, why that card is a parallel about Odyssey meeting Circe, and how she transformed his men into pigs. You have some proof it's not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    It is a break
    Do you have a proof it's a break?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Also, stop playing devil's advocate. You can't at one moment claim they would never admit to a mistake, and then the next act like their word is gospel. Pick a stance and stick to it.
    Ok, then come up with an easily verifiable and non-subjective definition of what break is.

    You seem to be either working on your own idea what is a break/bleed/bend, which is unverifiable, subjective and irrelevant.
    -OR-
    You are using RnD's definition of which is verifiable, subjective and relevant (since they dictate what is and isn't Magic).

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    That's some troll level logic right there.
    They're literally the concepts RnD use to design cards, how can they just be flat out wrong?
    The whole purpose of bends is that they're not outside the color pie, that's why they're bending the pie, but not breaking it.

    Sun titan isn't a break, there is precedence for it's ability. There is no precedence for Elesh Norn. Every bit of criticism Maro had for Augury Adept is true for Elesh Norn.
    You are right about Sun Titan. However, then explain how Elesh Norn is a bend and is right in line with those "concepts" and Mentor of the Meek is a break according to these concepts. This will be fun.

    Here is a HINT:
    Choose one:
    - Magic
    - Consistency

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    So you admit those rules are wrong?
    I didn't say all the rules were wrong. I still think if you can't do it in both color it's not a hybrid. However, I just don't concern myself with it being break/bend/bleed. It's all a break, you just have to justify it. Some you can justify by your setting being more artifact focused, or sometimes you justify it by having good flavor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    You don't get to just blatantly disregard the rules and substitute them with your own just because you feel like it.
    Sure you do, you just have to make something that will appeal to people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    The entire point of the color pie is that bends are within the color pie and breaks are outside it. I
    Ok, got it. -2/-2 on white is ok, and draw for white is a break.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    She's not, she's about a blatant a break as they get.
    Hmm. Who to believe... Head of magic or you? Hmmm...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    If it's justified then it isn't a break, it's a bend.
    I think Elesh Norn is justified break. If white gets in universe pay 2 life instead of mana, they can get -2/-2.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    A break does something the color doesn't normally do, and is outside the color pie.
    Like Mentor of the Meek?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    In order to reference it doesn't need to copy everything. I already said this.
    Ok, so it doesn't matter there are sailor or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    You claimed they were sailors, I then said they were soldiers, then you doubled down on them being sailors.

    From your initial post, it seems like the maritime theme was important to the card's flavor being blue.
    Ok, so it does matter they are sailors. Sure, maybe sailors isn't the right word? Seafarers. People traveling for long time over the sea.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    which was that if the card wasn't within blue's pie then they could have just made it white.
    I don't think white gets transform effect that often.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    I already said that this is referencing people being turned into pigs, but it represents soldiers, not sailors...
    Ok, why does it matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Have you read the card?
    It doesn't have flash.
    Have you read Minion's Return ? First two lines are "Flash. Enchant creature".
    https://scryfall.com/card/thb/104/minions-return

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    I've already said that, but you don't get to pretend you didn't claim Minion's Return was a mind control effects when it is much closer to a reanimation spell.
    Let me pretend? This seems to you something about settling some sort of a score. Luckily for you, I haven't been paying too much attention to your blunders. But there were quite a few. No Flash on Minion's Return

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    This isn't an argument. You can't say "it hasn't been done, so it shouldn't be done".
    Yes, it is. Something, something if it wasn't done before, maybe there is a good precedent why not to do it. Honestly, if in an effect hasn't appeared relatively recently (e.g. Pioneer and Modern), maybe there is a reason, why it doesn't appear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    This is not the same as printing white cards with protection as an evasive keyword.
    It depends on the matchup. Depending on matchup Menace won't be a good evasive keyword.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    That's a nice way of ignoring the the part where there are 10 cards.
    And the part where two of the white ones are one-shot effects.
    And the part where one of them isn't even color protection but CMC protection, and is also red.
    There are two white creatures with protection from a color that have been printed in standard legal sets since 2018, one as part of a cycle.
    Giving protection with one shot effects is a white effect, chromatic protection, (choose the color), very likely is still a white effect, but creatures getting protection from one specific color is no longer a common white effect.
    That's nice way of moving the goalpost. Number of white Protection cards 2, every other color gets 1 each.

    Also white get effect at common (God's Willing), even if protection isn't as numerous as before.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    It can't be blocked by one color, that's not hard to block.
    You'd be surprised. But since white also gets protection on instant, you can get double protection.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Most creature's aren't multi colored though.
    They don't have to be. You could have 5/5 attacker with protection from white and I could have a green 1/1 mana dork and a white 6/6 creature. I'm not gonna block with my mana dork.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Look at my comment where I replied to this. Stop ignoring my replies.
    Oh, you mean that. If you look at black creatures you get:
    - Can't be blocked by enchantemt creature or enchanted creature
    - Can't be blocked by <<color>> creatures
    - Can't be blocked by artifacts
    - Card that transforms into a blue card
    - Can't be blocked by creature with power >4
    - Sacrifice a creature: Can't be blocked.
    - Can't be blocked by <<creature type>>

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Indestructible also only does something if the creature would be destroyed. Regeneration and indestructible does something in the same situations.
    You're making a distinction without a difference.
    No. Indestructible is different. Indestructible is a blanket "Can't be destroyed until X". Regenerate is "Next time this would be destroyed".

    If I make creature indestructible and you cast two Defeat cards, you wasted a Defeat.
    If I give creature regeneration and you cast two Defeat, I need to give creature another regeneration. I need to REACT to each instance of destroy.

    Compare "Player can't cast spells" vs "Counter target spell".

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    There is a presence for white card draw, though most of it is very limited.
    Clues might be the most general.
    That was set wide mechanic. Like Phyrexian mana. And Infect. And wither.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Not when Wizards are looking for a way to make white draw cards.
    Are they? Maro was adamant about not giving white draw.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    That's not an argument. If you can think of a way that gives white a unique way of drawing cards then present it, white needs it.
    Does it? On Discord, there was a consensus white was doing fine without card draw.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Only because it creates the lifelink tokens itself.
    Pretty sure it's the fact that you get draw for white.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Mentor of the Meek is probably one of the best examples of card draw in white. It's not a break because it's meaningfully distinct from a green effect.
    According to Discord and Maro[1]. It's a break.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    No they haven't, not like this.
    Other colors did, except without the downside. Exile cards from hand/library and play them is either red or blue. Playing from graveyard is black.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    It's not infinite casts, it lets you cast it once, just like you could return it once. Please explain the meaningful distinction between returning once a turn and casting once a turn.
    Ok. So I can't have 4 Bring Back? I don't think that is how it works. Each has a separate trigger. Having two Muldrothas means you return up to two cards of each type.

    But say you are limited to once per turn. It's still a repeatable effect. If you are an avid reader of MTG design, then you must know repeatable effects like Buyback lead to repetitive gameplay.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    You can trigger it the turn you play it, also that's not an argument. Dying to removal isn't what makes it white.
    Dying to removal, means it can be cheaper than an enchantment. Enchantment are harder to remove than creatures.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Sevine's Reclamation costs 5 to flash back and returns two things.

    Three times, twice on flashback.
    Irrelevant. It's still a cast N times then exile it. It's not repeatable. Like your Bring Back.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Why are you disregarding Sun Titan?
    Yeah, white gets that effect, however, this effect isn't - play from your graveyard. Also for it to trigger repeatdely you need to attack (and I can body block it). It's not a guaranteed to trigger on your turn like Bring Back. So Bring Back would need to cost like 7-9 CMC IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    White recurs artifacts and enchantments easily too, there is a precedence for this.
    Yes, but much less often and at higher CMC, and even then not perfectly consistent. Sun Titan needs to etb/attack, Angel needs lands to enter. So you could make a 7-9 CMC card like that but I wouldn't call it "white draw". And it's not something that can be done easily.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    You do realize it's once a turn right? Yawgmoth's Will gives it all at once.
    It can stack with it other copies and my problem isn't it's in once a turn, but recurring your cards ad infinite, and consistently.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Same with Sun Titan.
    I can Murder the Titan, but can't Murder Bring Back.
    I can Banefire the Titan, but can't Banefire Bring Back.

    Two major colors are going to have huge problems dealing with this card.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Have you ever played constructed? CMC 4 is a lot in most formats.
    My problem was that in Constructed CMC restriction is meaningless. A deck will be structured so that the downside is never a downside.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Well Maro is wrong.
    It undermines mechanical weakness of White.

    Hmm. So MaRo is wrong only when he thinks opposite of you. That's a great way to create a tautological fortress.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Red doesn't really tap its creatures to do things, white is the color that does that the most.
    Stop looking for petty reasons why an effect that is unique card draw can't be in white, the color that needs it.
    I gave you my honest feedback. It looks like impulsive draw with extra steps.

    Lemme see what Discord says.
    - It's RW - I definitely see their reasoning. Red for impulse draw, White for tap and caring about permanents.
    - Green - Only green gets draws like that.
    Last edited by -D-; 2020-03-13 at 03:31 PM.

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    Default Re: MTG Share your Card Designs II

    A Legendary Elemental Gargoyle - Return of the Awaken mechanic

    I would like to hear your opinion about an idea of mine. I discusssed it with a few friends and they thought it was a good idea. However, none of us are sure how to make a balanced Commander out if this idea.

    I was thinking of a way to make a Commander with good synergy with the Awaken mechanic, here's what I came out with.

    First, Gargoyles are statues brought to life and that can fly even if they are made of stone. But what if one broke from its contract to return to the wilderland? That Gargoyle could bound with a territory and become a natural sanctuary guardian.

    "Unbound Gargoyle"

    CMC: 2 W/U/G

    Type: Legendary Gargoyle Elemental

    Power 3 / Toughness 3

    Tap for a blue, white or green mana

    Flying

    As long as Unbound Gargoyle is in play, Land creatures cannot be destroyed and cannot be sacrificed.

    Sacrifice a noncreature land: Return Unbound Gargoyle or a card with awaken from your graveyard to your hand

    ===========

    I am not sure how balanced the card is this way but as you can see, the main goal is to make land creature a strategy that would be less dangerous against boardwipe or removal. It doesnt give them hexproof though, they could be still be exiled or be destroyed by cards similar to Toxic Deluge.

    I am not sure how balanced this custom card is and would definitly appreciate your imput!

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    Default Re: MTG Share your Card Designs II

    Quote Originally Posted by -D- View Post
    No, but saying Elesh Norn is a break that shouldn't be printed would be fine too.
    He should say that, but the reason he isn't saying that isn't because he's trying to safe Wizard's face, it's because he for some reason actually believes it.
    He's not holding punches against Inspiring Commander, and he's giving Mentor of the Meek way more flak than he deserves

    I'm curious, do you think Elesh Norn is a break or not? Because you're sending mixed signals.

    Extraordinary claims, require extraordinary proofs.
    It's "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". It's the Sagan standard.
    How is my claim that a lot regular LGS attendees know his blog an extraordinary claim, but your claim that most magic players don't know it not?

    From my experience at my LGS no one knows who that guy is, let alone he has a blog, let alone he blogs about magic.
    That's purely anecdotal and says a lot about your LGS, but not about LGSs in general.

    Mark saving face for Wizards, is like any day of the week. Do you need proof he would do it
    These are just your same conspiracy theories repeated.
    Hanlon's Razor:
    "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

    Also you didn't answer my question, why does the amount of players who know of blogatog even matter?

    There was a CCG that was essentially Magic, but without Basic Lands. To this day, I prefer it to Magic. Admittedly, it had its faults.
    If you genuinely think that then you probably shouldn't be designing magic cards.
    What was that CCG even?

    I've presented my proof, why that card is a parallel about Odyssey meeting Circe, and how she transformed his men into pigs. You have some proof it's not?
    1. Don't say proof, it's evidence, not proof. Proofs are for math and philosophy.
    2. I already agreed that it was a reference to that, but that doesn't mean it is a parallel to the entire story, it's just a reference to that one part.
    3. The part you're replying to isn't even about Curse of Swine, it's about Elesh Norn. Look at the context.

    Do you have a proof it's a break?
    Replacing "citation needed" with "do you have a proof" doesn't improve your argument one bit.
    I literally made my argument for this in the part of my comment you elected to leave out. Stop being dishonest. Engage with my arguments please.

    Ok, then come up with an easily verifiable and non-subjective definition of what break is.
    I've replied multiple times that what you're looking for doesn't exist.
    Card design is subjective, if you're looking for objective truths find yourself another hobby.

    You seem to be either working on your own idea what is a break/bleed/bend, which is unverifiable, subjective and irrelevant.
    This is incredibly ironic for someone who just made up his own definition for break a few posts ago. I'm sure that irony is lost on you though.

    You are using RnD's definition of which is verifiable, subjective and relevant (since they dictate what is and isn't Magic).
    Can you find anywhere that these are clearly defined by RnD?

    You are right about Sun Titan.
    However, then explain how Elesh Norn is a bend and is right in line with those "concepts" and Mentor of the Meek is a break according to these concepts.
    Did you not even read my comments? I said Elesh Norn is a break and Mentor of the Meek is a bend. Why would I argue for the opposite?

    This will be fun.
    What is fun? You asking me to defend positions I never claimed to hold.

    Here is a HINT:
    Choose one:
    - Magic
    - Consistency
    Not an argument. Even RnD make mistakes sometimes, that doesn't invalidate the design philosophy.

    I didn't say all the rules were wrong. I still think if you can't do it in both color it's not a hybrid.
    Then how do you reply to all those examples I gave and the quote of Maro literally saying you could if it was still within the philosophy of that color?

    However, I just don't concern myself with it being break/bend/bleed. It's all a break,
    Being too lazy to understand the definitions doesn't make you right.

    you just have to justify it.
    If it's justified then it's not a break. That's the difference.
    Justified=bend
    Unjustified=break

    Some you can justify by your setting being more artifact focused,
    And set mechanics, sure.

    or sometimes you justify it by having good flavor.
    In very rare cases like Form of the Dragon, sure.
    Elesh Norn doesn't fall under this though.

    Sure you do, you just have to make something that will appeal to people.
    The fact that you would make an outright statement like this shows that you have no business telling people anything about card design, because on a fundamental level you don't understand it.

    Ok, got it. -2/-2 on white is ok, and draw for white is a break.
    This is literally the opposite of what I claimed.

    Hmm. Who to believe... Head of magic or you? Hmmm...
    Snark isn't getting you everywhere.
    You said it yourself, Maro makes mistakes.
    Stop playing devil's advocate, pick a position and stand by it.

    I think Elesh Norn is justified break.
    If it's justified then it's not a break.
    Elesh Norn is completely unjustified.

    If white gets in universe pay 2 life instead of mana,
    Using phyrexian mana as your argument shows how poor your understanding is. It was one of the most poorly designed, broken mechanics in magic, and it was the worst offender against the color pie in possibly forever.

    they can get -2/-2.
    That doesn't follow at all. Why would paying life for mana equal access to -2/-2. Should green and blue get -2/-2 as well then?

    Like Mentor of the Meek?
    Caring about small creatures is something white does, as is drawing cards for following a narrow build around strategy. I think 1 power creatures without anthems fall into this category, as very few decks can properly support that.

    Ok, so it doesn't matter there are sailor or not?
    Curse of Swine is a reference to people getting turned into swine in the story, nothing else. It isn't a reference to any of the surrounding lore.
    The flavor of Curse of Swine isn't specifically blue, it could easily have been white if the card didn't fit mechanically into blue, but it does, because it's a pongify effect.

    Ok, so it does matter they are sailors. Sure, maybe sailors isn't the right word? Seafarers. People traveling for long time over the sea.
    Where do you see the sea in the picture?
    What part of the picture or flavor text makes you convinced it has to be seafarers can can't just be regular land walking soldiers?

    I don't think white gets transform effect that often.
    Yes, because it's blue, which is why they got Curse of Swine.
    White has Generous Gift, Baffling End and Crib Swap.

    Ok, why does it matter?
    Because you insisted that the card represented sailors and because you insisted the card was blue because of the flavor, not because of mechanics.

    Have you read Minion's Return ? First two lines are "Flash. Enchant creature".
    https://scryfall.com/card/thb/104/minions-return
    Apparently I haven't. I just assumed it was the same as Unhallowed Pact.
    That does make the card significantly better, but it's still just Grim Return, which is a reanimation spell. You still just get to reanimate a creature, you don't get to mind control.

    Let me pretend? This seems to you something about settling some sort of a score. Luckily for you, I haven't been paying too much attention to your blunders. But there were quite a few. No Flash on Minion's Return
    That's not an argument for anything. I misread a card, that doesn't affect most of my argument. You're still claiming Minion's Return is a Mind Control effect, when it's a reanimation effect.

    Yes, it is.
    No it's not. By that logic we can't design cards at all.
    We look at what there is precedence for, we don't need for the exact same effect to already exist.

    Something, something if it wasn't done before, maybe there is a good precedent why not to do it.
    I see you are once again misrepresenting an argument I have already explained was misrepresented last time you tried to do that many posts ago.

    Honestly, if in an effect hasn't appeared relatively recently (e.g. Pioneer and Modern), maybe there is a reason, why it doesn't appear.
    Unblockable in black has appeared relatively recently, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

    It depends on the matchup. Depending on matchup Menace won't be a good evasive keyword.
    It's still an evasive keyword, even if it's not a good one. In many matchups Protection will just be the same as straight up not having an ability. Evasion doesn't matter when the opponent has no creatures, but that's true for all evasion. It's not great when the opponent has lots of small creatures, but it still forces them to double block.

    That's nice way of moving the goalpost. Number of white Protection cards 2, every other color gets 1 each.
    I'm not moving any goalposts. It's very clearly not a very common ability, it's therefore bad precedence, even if it was good evasion.
    Two over one isn't enough to make a point, also there are two red protection creature, you maybe forgot Piledriver.

    Also white get effect at common (God's Willing), even if protection isn't as numerous as before.
    One shot effects. I acknowledged this. That's not the same as getting it static for one color on creatures.

    You'd be surprised.
    No I wouldn't. I've played with the cards. In most games Protection isn't very effective as evasion.

    But since white also gets protection on instant, you can get double protection.
    I searched for "Protection from instants" and found only a colorless card and two green cards.

    They don't have to be. You could have 5/5 attacker with protection from white and I could have a green 1/1 mana dork and a white 6/6 creature. I'm not gonna block with my mana dork.
    And that will sometimes pop up, but in most matches protection isn't very good as unblockable.

    Oh, you mean that.
    You still didn't reply to my argument. Defend that white gets unblockable creatures.

    If you look at black creatures you get:
    - Can't be blocked by enchantemt creature or enchanted creature
    - Can't be blocked by <<color>> creatures
    - Can't be blocked by artifacts
    - Card that transforms into a blue card
    - Can't be blocked by creature with power >4
    - Sacrifice a creature: Can't be blocked.
    - Can't be blocked by <<creature type>>
    Two of those are hard unblockable. One has an activation, but it still gives you hard unblockable. The creature that transforms into a blue creature requires only black mana, you can play it easily in a mono black deck.
    You also very conveniently ignored the one that has been brought up a million times:
    "Can't block and can't be blocked"

    No. Indestructible is different. Indestructible is a blanket "Can't be destroyed until X". Regenerate is "Next time this would be destroyed".
    You've yet to explain why that distinction is meaningful. Both only end up doing anything if the creature would be destroyed.

    If I make creature indestructible and you cast two Defeat cards, you wasted a Defeat.
    Why would I cast two defeat cards though?

    If I give creature regeneration and you cast two Defeat, I need to give creature another regeneration. I need to REACT to each instance of destroy.
    But that just makes indestructible better, it doesn't make it proactive. You just react to the first one and also get to blank the second one, just like you would if you cast Giant Growth in response.
    You're still reacting to what the opponent is doing.

    Compare "Player can't cast spells" vs "Counter target spell".
    1. I already said proactivity is very white, but that doesn't mean it doesn't also get to be reactive.
    2. Judge's Familiar, Lapse of Certainty.
    3. Settle the Wreckage, Rebuke and a ton of similar effects.

    Where did you get this idea that white isn't allowed to be reactive?

    That was set wide mechanic. Like Phyrexian mana. And Infect. And wither.
    It allowed it in a white way, they're artifacts and tokens, require extra cost to not be combo.

    Are they? Maro was adamant about not giving white draw.
    Yes, they are. Drawing cards is a huge part of the game.

    Does it? On Discord, there was a consensus white was doing fine without card draw.
    In a lot of formats it's fine, in commander it's the worst mono color by far.
    Red was doing fine without impulsive draw outside commander too, doesn't mean that didn't help out loads.

    Pretty sure it's the fact that you get draw for white.
    White gets card draw, it just need specific strategies. Life gain is one such strategy.

    According to Discord and Maro[1]. It's a break.
    And Maro is wrong.
    Mentor of the Meek is a brilliant example of white card draw, and the fact that Inspiring Commander got made as an arena only card shows that his opinion is not that of the entire R&D.

    Other colors did, except without the downside. Exile cards from hand/library and play them is either red or blue. Playing from graveyard is black.
    Exactly, without the downside. You can't just pretend the downside doesn't exist. By that logic Experimental Frenzy should be blue because of Futuresight

    Ok. So I can't have 4 Bring Back?
    Yes, but that requires you to have 4 in play.

    I don't think that is how it works. Each has a separate trigger. Having two Muldrothas means you return up to two cards of each type.
    How is getting an effect multiple times if you have multiple cards at all relevant?

    But say you are limited to once per turn. It's still a repeatable effect.
    So is Sun Titan.

    If you are an avid reader of MTG design, then you must know repeatable effects like Buyback lead to repetitive gameplay.
    Buy back lets you play the same instant or sorcery every turn, this only does permanent cards, so you need to actually have them die to replay them. That's a pretty big difference.
    Also it's not a mechanic, it's one card.
    Muldrotha was a card they made, as was Karador.

    Dying to removal, means it can be cheaper than an enchantment. Enchantment are harder to remove than creatures.
    No, it's not cheaper than an enchantment. Compare Stony Silence with Collector Oophe.
    Creatures are easier to kill, but they also have relevant bodies, are easier to tutor, are easier to recur, and are easier to cheat into play.

    Irrelevant. It's still a cast N times then exile it. It's not repeatable. Like your Bring Back.
    You still haven't explained why that is something white shouldn't be allowed to do.
    Also if that is the only issue, what if it had a clause like this:
    "It enters the battlefield with a glass counter on it. If it would leave the battlefield, exile it instead."

    Yeah, white gets that effect, however, this effect isn't - play from your graveyard.
    I've asked you what the meaningful distinction between play from your graveyard and return is.

    Also for it to trigger repeatdely you need to attack (and I can body block it).
    How is that in any way an argument?

    It's not a guaranteed to trigger on your turn like Bring Back.
    Yes it is, Sun Titan triggers even if it is blocked and dies.

    So Bring Back would need to cost like 7-9 CMC IMO.
    This is such a wrong take it hurts.
    Sun Titan has a very relevant body.
    Sun Titan triggers on ETB.
    Sun Titan being way easier to recur makes it much better.
    Sun Titan goes infinite with a sac outlet and any of like 10+ cards.
    Sun Titan doesn't require you to pay the mana cost, Bring Back does.

    Yes, but much less often and at higher CMC, and even then not perfectly consistent.
    Casting from the graveyard is similar to returning from the graveyard to the hand. White gets this for cheap, restoration specialist for instance.

    Sun Titan needs to etb/attack,
    This is not a very big downside.

    So you could make a 7-9 CMC card like that but I wouldn't call it "white draw". And it's not something that can be done easily.
    Read what bring back does. You need to pay for the cards you play.

    It can stack with it other copies and my problem isn't it's in once a turn, but recurring your cards ad infinite, and consistently.
    That's the same thing Sun Titan does, and you don't need to pay for the card every turn with him.

    I can Murder the Titan, but can't Murder Bring Back.
    I can Banefire the Titan, but can't Banefire Bring Back.

    Two major colors are going to have huge problems dealing with this card.
    Black is one of the colors with the most graveyard hate, so really only red struggles, and this isn't an argument, Debtor's Knell is a card, Starfield of Nyx is a card.

    My problem was that in Constructed CMC restriction is meaningless.
    No it's not. Not being able to play your expensive threat every turn is very important. It means it might be good in weenie decks, but midrange decks won't get to freeroll it.

    A deck will be structured so that the downside is never a downside.
    It's a restriction, not a downside. Learn to distinguish between the two.

    It undermines mechanical weakness of White.
    No it doesn't, it needs heavy build around.
    Maro said white shouldn't get to draw into all its answers, but decks that can draw a lot off Mentor won't have a lot of answers.

    Hmm. So MaRo is wrong only when he thinks opposite of you. That's a great way to create a tautological fortress.
    That's not what I said at all. Inspiring Commander is a card, as is Bygone Bishop, R&D don't agree with Maro on this.

    You have yourself both accused Maro of being wrong on occasions and have used him as a source.

    I gave you my honest feedback. It looks like impulsive draw with extra steps.
    It's not impulsive draw at all, for one it draws the cards for good, it just draws them delayed. It's also delayed, which is the opposite of impulsive. It also only gets permanents.

    Lemme see what Discord says.
    - It's RW - I definitely see their reasoning. Red for impulse draw, White for tap and caring about permanents.
    - Green - Only green gets draws like that.
    Get your discord right out of here, if I wanted their opinion I would have asked them.
    I've said it before how you claiming your discord server supports you doesn't matter.
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    Default Re: MTG Share your Card Designs II

    @Emmerlaus
    Correct formatting for your card would be:

    Unbound Gargoyle - 2WUG
    Legendary Creature - Gargoyle Elemental
    Flying
    T: Add W, U or G.
    Land creatures cannot be destroyed and cannot be sacrificed.
    Sacrifice a noncreature land: Return Unbound Gargoyle or a card with awaken from your graveyard to your hand
    3/3

    Try to use correct wording, it makes reading the card a lot easier.

    You don't need to specify when it is in play, abilities only work when in play unless otherwise noted.

    I have a bunch of issues with this.
    Why is this not an artifact like every other gargoyle?
    Why is this an elemental, gargoyles are made of stone but they're just gargoyles.
    Tapping for one mana doesn't seem very relevant on a 5 drop, especially not when it's a 3 power flyer so you will probably just want to hit people with it.
    The name doesn't sound legendary.
    I think the land creatures ability should be worded "Land creatures have indestructible and players can't sacrifice lands."
    The land creatures ability should be one sided.
    The last ability is really weird. You can sacrifice a land when this is in the graveyard to return it to your hand, because the ability specifies from your graveyard. But at the same time it can also return awaken cards, and that clause only works when it's on the battlefield.

    I think it should have some way of animating lands itself.
    It annoys me that your land creatures tribal card specifically mentions Awaken, as it pushes it into a specific style, rather than also encourage manlands and planeswalkers that can animate lands for instance.
    This seems like it was meant for commander, so a recursion ability for itself is strange.
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    Default Re: MTG Share your Card Designs II

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    @Emmerlaus
    Correct formatting for your card would be:

    Unbound Gargoyle - 2WUG
    Legendary Creature - Gargoyle Elemental
    Flying
    T: Add W, U or G.
    Land creatures cannot be destroyed and cannot be sacrificed.
    Sacrifice a noncreature land: Return Unbound Gargoyle or a card with awaken from your graveyard to your hand
    3/3

    Try to use correct wording, it makes reading the card a lot easier.

    You don't need to specify when it is in play, abilities only work when in play unless otherwise noted.

    I have a bunch of issues with this.
    Why is this not an artifact like every other gargoyle?
    Why is this an elemental, gargoyles are made of stone but they're just gargoyles.
    Tapping for one mana doesn't seem very relevant on a 5 drop, especially not when it's a 3 power flyer so you will probably just want to hit people with it.
    The name doesn't sound legendary.
    I think the land creatures ability should be worded "Land creatures have indestructible and players can't sacrifice lands."
    The land creatures ability should be one sided.
    The last ability is really weird. You can sacrifice a land when this is in the graveyard to return it to your hand, because the ability specifies from your graveyard. But at the same time it can also return awaken cards, and that clause only works when it's on the battlefield.

    I think it should have some way of animating lands itself.
    It annoys me that your land creatures tribal card specifically mentions Awaken, as it pushes it into a specific style, rather than also encourage manlands and planeswalkers that can animate lands for instance.
    This seems like it was meant for commander, so a recursion ability for itself is strange.
    From your suggestions, here's my second take on my idea:

    Unbound Gargoyle - 2WUG
    Legendary Artifact Creature - Gargoyle Elemental
    Flying
    Land creatures you control are indestructible and cannot be sacrificed
    Pay one mana, Exile a creature card from a graveyard: Target land you control get a number of +1/+1 counter equal to that creature casting cost. That land become gain the Elemental subtype.
    3/3

    =============

    The name doesnt sound legendary of course because its not that important. The stats are what's important.

    Interesting how you pointed out its not a artifact creature. My mistake, its corrected now.

    It's a Elemental because Gargoyles are made of stone. They are animated STONE statue. But a Earth Elemental is technically also minerals animated thanks to magic. My goal was to build a bridge between the two types of creatures.

    I like the Land creature ability to be global. How he is changing the nature of land Creatures by his presence. But you might be right, corrected.

    You were right to decide to switch the awaken focus. Just an Elemental tribal - Graveyard hate Commander is enough to make it interesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Emmerlaus View Post
    Unbound Gargoyle - 2WUG
    Legendary Artifact Creature - Gargoyle Elemental
    Flying
    Land creatures you control are indestructible and cannot be sacrificed
    Pay one mana, Exile a creature card from a graveyard: Target land you control get a number of +1/+1 counter equal to that creature casting cost. That land become gain the Elemental subtype.
    3/3
    Why is it still an elemental? What is a Gargoyle Elemental even. It makes sense that it's an elemental, it doesn't make a lot of sense that it's a Gargoyle.
    Correct wording is have indestructible, are indestructible is an old wording.
    It's 1 not Pay one mana.
    The exile should either be from only your graveyard, look at Moorland Haunt, or it should target and exile on resolution, look at Deathrite Shaman.
    The last ability is worded wrong, look at Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper.
    Why does your land creature tribal card care about having creatures in your graveyard?
    The last ability also seems very unbalanced, given it's both repeated graveyard removal with heavy upside, and it always only cost 1 mana no matter the cost or power of the creature. It can also be used at instant speed. Compare to Varolz, the Scar-Striped.

    The name doesnt sound legendary of course because its not that important. The stats are what's important.
    Sure, but then you could have just given it some random name. It's easier to think of it as a legendary then.

    It's a Elemental because Gargoyles are made of stone. They are animated STONE statue. But a Earth Elemental is technically also minerals animated thanks to magic. My goal was to build a bridge between the two types of creatures.
    But every other gargoyle is also made of stone and isn't a gargoyle.

    You were right to decide to switch the awaken focus. Just an Elemental tribal - Graveyard hate Commander is enough to make it interesting.
    I don't think you want graveyard hate/synergy with this, you are limiting how it's build too much.
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    Grask, Returned to Nature - 2WUG
    Legendary Artifact Creature - Gargoyle Elemental
    Flying
    Land creatures you control are indestructible and cannot be sacrificed
    1, Exile a creature card from a graveyard: Put one +1/+1 counter on a land you control. If it's not a land creature, It become a Elemental creature.

    ====

    The effect will be upon resolution I guess.

    Its less OP this way? Only a +1/+1 counter on one target land for each card in the graveyard. Reapeatable at instant speed yes.

    Creatures are body, soul, mind. He empty the graveyards of souls and fuse them with the lands. He was smarter then he should have being and a greater connection with what is around him.
    Last edited by Emmerlaus; 2020-03-14 at 05:49 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Emmerlaus View Post
    From your suggestions, here's my second take on my idea:

    Unbound Gargoyle - 2WUG
    Legendary Artifact Creature - Gargoyle Elemental
    Flying
    Land creatures you control are indestructible and cannot be sacrificed
    Pay one mana, Exile a creature card from a graveyard: Target land you control get a number of +1/+1 counter equal to that creature casting cost. That land becomes gain the Elemental subtype.
    3/3
    On surface level, here are the issues - Legendary creatures are named. It can't be Unbound Gargoyle. An Unbound Gargoyle doesn't sound unique enogh. To me it should be "Mugazak, The Unbound Gargoyle". Alternatively, if the story makes him so unique he could be "The Unbound Gargoyle", but to me that sounds meh.

    In MTG Gargoyles are Gargoyles. Elementals are something wholly made of the natural materials (one excuse being elemental Giants, but giants could just be size descriptor).
    Lava Elemental is essentially sentinent piece of Lava. Gargoyles are artificial so not elementals.

    https://scryfall.com/search?q=t%3Aga...order=released
    https://scryfall.com/search?q=t%3Ael...order=released

    It also shouldn't be "Pay one mana, Exile a...", but "1, Exile a...".

    His second abilities luckily does nothing. It's possible that you just want to put counters on target land and for it to have Elemental subtype, but it won't be a creature.
    ----------------------------------------
    Now my critiques of a mechanic.

    Ok. 5CMC flyer that gives lands indestructible and can't be sacrificed is fair. You can still exile them, or kill them with -X/-X effects, etc.

    His ability on the other hand is plain broken. First it doesn't work, because it doesn't turn Land into a creature, just give target Land a funky type. Second, even if it did work, it would be horribly, horribly broken. It would be turn 6, enjoy your 10/10 indestructible can't be sacrificed land hitting you in the face. Unless you target a land that enter this turn.

    If I were to balance it, I'd template it like this:

    "Tap, G{W/U}: Put three +1/+1 counters on target noncreature land you control. Untap it. It becomes a 0/0 Elemental creature with vigilance and haste that’s still a land."
    This is wording is from Nissa Who Shakes the World.

    Why Tap? So you have to keep it alive for a turn. Can't just plot and turn your lands into creatures.
    Why this 3 counters? 3/3 creatures you can deal with potentially with thing like Witche's Vengeance.
    Why target noncreature land? To prevent stacking a billion counters on a single land.
    Why untap? Partially flavor, partially as more mana on your turn.
    Why vigilance? So it doesn't tap on attack.
    Why haste? So you can use it without worrying on what turn did your land enter.

    ================================================== ===============

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    He should say that, but the reason he isn't saying that isn't because he's trying to safe Wizard's face, it's because he for some reason actually believes it.
    I don't think he believes that. You know how they say. Actions speak louder than words. Since New Phyrexia there was 0 white cards that gave negative toughness.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    I'm curious, do you think Elesh Norn is a break or not? Because you're sending mixed signals.
    Flavor wise, it's a justifiable break in NPH. You get to pay life instead mana, so giving creatures -1/-1 isn't that huge of an issue.
    But mechanic wise - the amount of P/T difference it gives, is why I dislike it. I know it's legendary, it's still too much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    How is my claim that a lot regular LGS attendees know his blog an extraordinary claim, but your claim that most magic players don't know it not?

    That's purely anecdotal and says a lot about your LGS, but not about LGSs in general.
    Because, from my experience with two LGS I frequent, people have no idea who he is.

    Also why would people sitting down to play magic and win some prizes in FNM, care about card designs? And more specifically care about what Mark wrote on his blog?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Hanlon's Razor: "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
    When dealing with anything with 100 or more people it's best to suspend Hanlon's Razor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    If you genuinely think that then you probably shouldn't be designing magic cards.
    What was that CCG even?
    I don't see why me liking some game more has to do with not designing Magic cards. I do it as a creative outlet.

    CCG rough translation would be "Sources of Magic", but I also like Sirlin's Codex that had a similar premise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    1. Don't say proof, it's evidence, not proof. Proofs are for math and philosophy.
    2. I already agreed that it was a reference to that, but that doesn't mean it is a parallel to the entire story, it's just a reference to that one part.
    1. Proof and evidence is interchangable in this context. Proof meaning evidence enought to belive something is true.
    2. Perhaps, but evidence is stacked in it's favor. The setting is Helenic, there are bunch of Island City States, and is referencing story of Circe, and literally requires an Island to cast it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    I've replied multiple times that what you're looking for doesn't exist.
    If there isn't such a definition why should I take your opinion of bleed over MaRo's?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    This is incredibly ironic for someone who just made up his own definition for break a few posts ago. I'm sure that irony is lost on you though.
    Say what you want about my definition, it's very easy to determine if something is a break or not:

    1) Check if it is Mechanical Color Pie?
    2) Check if it was printed recently in last few sets (look at Standard, Pioneer, Modern)?
    3) If both are negative, that's a break.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Can you find anywhere that these are clearly defined by RnD?
    Moving goalpost. Not said there were clearly defined, said they were verifiable. Look at MaRo's blog, look at articles on designing Magic, etc. Use latest sources over older, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Being too lazy to understand the definitions doesn't make you right.
    I'd rather be lazy than deluded that what I think is right, everyone else be damned.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Elesh Norn doesn't fall under this though.
    Doesn't she? She's pretty much a strict White Fashist. Glory to Phyrexia, everyone else be damned.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Using phyrexian mana as your argument shows how poor your understanding is. It was one of the most poorly designed, broken mechanics in magic, and it was the worst offender against the color pie in possibly forever.
    Phyrexian mana is broken for other reasons. Namely life being the cheapest resource. Also I you're forgetting poor ol' Banding. It's still a worse mechanic than Phyrexian mana.

    That said, I don't think phrexian mana is a break. It just enables them.

    Look:

    Phyrexia is Willing - W{PW}
    Instant
    Target creature you control gains protection from the color of your choice until end of turn.
    Draw a card.

    Not a break.

    This Is My Dismember 1B{PB}
    Instant
    Target creature gets -5/-5 until end of turn.

    Not a break.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Caring about small creatures is something white does
    Yeah, but it encroaches on green's turf. Caring about creatures.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Because you insisted that the card represented sailors and because you insisted the card was blue because of the flavor, not because of mechanics.
    Hm. No idea, must have thought it only exiles them or something. In that case you're right. Blue Transform is blue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    That's not an argument for anything. I misread a card, that doesn't affect most of my argument. You're still claiming Minion's Return is a Mind Control effect, when it's a reanimation effect.
    Pretty sure I corrected myself eons ago. Me being wrong about it, is much lesser fault than you thinking black doesn't get Mind Control effects. Or Trample.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    No it's not. By that logic we can't design cards at all.
    We look at what there is precedence for, we don't need for the exact same effect to already exist.
    This is not what's happening, you're taking someone other color's mechanic, limiting it a bit and calling it "white draw". I.e. taking another color's mechanic, and calling it white. All in order to undermine white's chief weakness - card draw. That even in your definition of bleed should be a break. You're not doing it for set reasons, you're not doing it for flavor reasons.

    Had you come up with a novel idea, something unseen to this day, something that's still in white's purview - I'd say good job.
    Right now. I just see recycled mechanics in other colors.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    I'm not moving any goalposts. It's very clearly not a very common ability, it's therefore bad precedence, even if it was good evasion.
    Two over one isn't enough to make a point, also there are two red protection creature, you maybe forgot Piledriver.
    That's just Standard. Piledriver ain't standard.
    Pioneer - W:18, U: 6, B:5, R:5, G:4

    Wait a minute:
    It's very clearly not a very common ability, it's therefore bad precedence
    And your example of Sun Titan is? Those abilities happened like several years ago. Last seen outside of Commander set that card was Profound Journey. A two-shot effect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    I searched for "Protection from instants" and found only a colorless card and two green cards.
    Protection ON instants e.g. God's willing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    You still didn't reply to my argument. Defend that white gets unblockable creatures.
    I'm merely noting your logic is faulty for saying black should get unblockable without any downsides, I made a comparisson to same thing being true for white.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Two of those are hard unblockable. One has an activation, but it still gives you hard unblockable.
    They still require you give up card advantage, that's a very steep price. It's same price as having a one shot effect on a instant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    "Can't block and can't be blocked"
    Pretty sure we discussed it ad nauseam. That's a heavy downside as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    You've yet to explain why that distinction is meaningful. Both only end up doing anything if the creature would be destroyed.

    But that just makes indestructible better, it doesn't make it proactive. You just react to the first one and also get to blank the second one, just like you would if you cast Giant Growth in response.
    You're still reacting to what the opponent is doing.
    I explained it. Each time you destroy a creature, I have to regenerate it. Indestructible until end of turn, means any subsequent attempt to destroy it (not counting stack shenanigans) fizzle.

    It's analogous to Silence compared to Counter spell.
    --------------------------------------------------
    If I cast Silence once, any subsequent spell will fizzle. I have to cast Counter Spell each time in response to a spell.
    If I cast Indestructible once, any subsequent destroy effect will fizzle. I have to cast Regenerate each time in response to a destroy effect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Why would I cast two defeat cards though?
    For sake of example... Defeat is a sorcery speed, in order to bypass stack shenanigans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    2. Judge's Familiar, Lapse of Certainty.
    3. Settle the Wreckage, Rebuke and a ton of similar effects.
    2. Those are all counterspell effect. It's up in the air, if white gets counterspell again.
    3. Told you already. Removing instants would mechanically cripple white. Also white is allowed to preprare counter measures, just not draw for them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    It allowed it in a white way, they're artifacts and tokens, require extra cost to not be combo.
    It should be also noted, of the three colors that investigate, white had the least Investigate.

    But, in a set that wants to give white draw, going for token or token creatures that draw cards is not a bad idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Yes, they are. Drawing cards is a huge part of the game.
    Citation needed.

    I only saw them talking about them discussing Howling Golem effect in white.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    White gets card draw, it just need specific strategies. Life gain is one such strategy.
    No, it's the draw part.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaRo
    White can’t get card drawing if that card draw is a means for it to draw all its answers, so no.

    That’s white’s main weakness. It has the best suite of answers, but the worst card draw. It can deal with any problem, if it knows what it is, but has the worst flexibility.
    https://markrosewater.tumblr.com/pos...card-draw-as-a

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Mentor of the Meek is a brilliant example of white card draw, and the fact that Inspiring Commander got made as an arena only card shows that his opinion is not that of the entire R&D.
    Heavily disagree. Inspiring Commander would turn Modern Lifegain deck I've seen from a nuissance into a nightmare. Wait, so you get life and counters and tokens and draw and ... everything.

    Imagine Archpriest of Thune, Soul Sisters, Hearld of War, Oketra's monument and This guy. You play a white creature spell and you get tokens and counters for days.

    Also it's brilliant example according to you - I think it's meh, other think it's a break, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    How is getting an effect multiple times if you have multiple cards at all relevant?
    It leads to stale and repetitive gameplay.
    It devalues point of removal.
    It's everything wrong with Buyback somehow made into a permanent.
    It's miserable in Limited - Oh you don't have 30 removals. Guess you lose, huh?
    It's overpowered in constructed - Oh, you don't have the exact removal needed to remove this creature? Too bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    So is Sun Titan.
    I'm saying it's a horrible repeatable effect, on a slightly easier to remove card and you're answer is doubling down on the wrongness?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Compare Stony Silence with Collector Oophe.
    Not sure if you can compare like that. But Benalish Marshal is close to Anthem (albeit WWW rather than 1WW). That said, I'd still be vary of putting it on an enchantment. Especially in white, that can search enchantment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman
    You still haven't explained why that is something white shouldn't be allowed to do.

    I've asked you what the meaningful distinction between play from your graveyard and return is.
    Play from graveyard is black/green. It blurs the line between your hand and your graveyard.
    White that believes in order an hierarchy would see this as something against its philosophy.
    Plus, if you equate them, then you are blurring lines between green/black and white.

    From a mechanical point, yeah, return is better. It's also super rare. White gets a very limited effect - i.e. creatures, permanents with mana cost <3, creatures with mana cost <2, etc. Journey being the slight exception.
    From a philosophy standpoint, this would be something white is against. Blurring the line between life and death = No. Ressurection as a reward to worthy = yes.
    From a color standpoint, stop trying to blur the lines between white, green and black.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Also if that is the only issue, what if it had a clause like this:
    "It enters the battlefield with a glass counter on it. If it would leave the battlefield, exile it instead."
    Another type of counters on creatures. That's a no-no in NWO. Set gets one type of counters per permanents (with some small exceptions).

    Not to mention, since this is permanents, you can't have any other type of counters on them as well.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    This is such a wrong take it hurts.
    Sun Titan has a very relevant body.
    Sun Titan triggers on ETB.
    Sun Titan being way easier to recur makes it much better.
    Sun Titan goes infinite with a sac outlet and any of like 10+ cards.
    Sun Titan doesn't require you to pay the mana cost, Bring Back does.
    To answer:
    - A relevant body that can be killed with deathtouch.
    - So does your Bringback - it works the same turn it is used. Like Muldrotha
    - Recuring Bring Back is not difficult either.
    - That's hyper slow. A 4CMC that can help me recur my threats and protect them from a board wipe.
    - Sure, that's why it appears every blue moon

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Maro said white shouldn't get to draw into all its answers, but decks that can draw a lot off Mentor won't have a lot of answers.
    Luckily for White, a lot of answers come in form of nice small bodies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    It's not impulsive draw at all, for one it draws the cards for good, it just draws them delayed.

    Get your discord right out of here, if I wanted their opinion I would have asked them.
    I've said it before how you claiming your discord server supports you doesn't matter.
    I called upon Discord as a sanity check. Because talking to you is taking its toll on my sanity.

    It's impulse draw with extra steps. You adding extra hoops doesn't make it unique enough.

    So, no, I and others concur, these designs you have are not white or at least fully white. You could pass it as WR, but not W.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    That's not what I said at all. Inspiring Commander is a card, as is Bygone Bishop, R&D don't agree with Maro on this.
    Inspiring Commander is an experiment. And other than one single format, it's not legal anywhere, so not well tested at all. And it can literally disappear tomorrow, if they deem it problematic.

    Bygone Bishop is probably closest to what you can get away as white draw. Highly set specific. Maro thinks Bygone Bishop is Ok. White is allowed to draw if it forces to specialize in a very thematic way or something.
    Last edited by -D-; 2020-03-14 at 08:44 PM.

  12. - Top - End - #552
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    Default Re: MTG Share your Card Designs II

    Quote Originally Posted by -D- View Post
    I don't think he believes that. You know how they say. Actions speak louder than words. Since New Phyrexia there was 0 white cards that gave negative toughness.
    You said it yourself, planar tint. We haven't returned to new phyrexia. Also just because he thinks that doesn't mean the rest of R&D agree with him.
    Without very strong reasons for the opposite, always assume the opinions someone say they hold are there actual opinions, because the opposite is impossible to argue.

    Flavor wise, it's a justifiable break in NPH.
    Stop saying that, a justified break is a bend, that is what a bend means.
    Stop trying to distinguish between the two.

    You get to pay life instead mana, so giving creatures -1/-1 isn't that huge of an issue.
    You're acting like phyrexian mana was a totally fine mechanic, and not one that has 2 cards banned or restricted in Modern, Legacy or Vintage.
    Phyrexian mana could have been fine, but the way they implemented it definitely wasn't Because of it mono blue decks now get to give -5/-5 for 1 mana.
    Yes, completely disregarding the colorpie is a huge issue.

    But mechanic wise - the amount of P/T difference it gives, is why I dislike it. I know it's legendary, it's still too much.
    It could give one creature -1/-1, it would still be a break.

    Because, from my experience with two LGS I frequent, people have no idea who he is.
    This is again purely anecdotal. It very much depends on how serious the players at you LGS are.

    Also why would people sitting down to play magic and win some prizes in FNM, care about card designs? And more specifically care about what Mark wrote on his blog?
    Because they care about Magic cards, and they care about what cards might be printed in the future. His blog is a way to keep up with that.

    When dealing with anything with 100 or more people it's best to suspend Hanlon's Razor.
    This was an assertion made without a sliver of an argument to back it up. Hanlon's Razor is routinely used against conspiracy theories, and those routinely involve more than 100 people.

    I don't see why me liking some game more has to do with not designing Magic cards. I do it as a creative outlet.
    Because the use of mana is so fundamental to the game that if you don't like that then what are you even doing?

    1. Proof and evidence is interchangable in this context. Proof meaning evidence enought to belive something is true.
    Evidence is a better term in general. Proof has the wrong connotation.

    2. Perhaps, but evidence is stacked in it's favor.
    No it's not. I have already explained why it isn't. I have replied to each of your arguments, while you just ignore mine.

    The setting is Helenic, there are bunch of Island City States, and is referencing story of Circe,
    I have no idea why either of these would be arguments.
    Nowhere on Curse of the Swine does it even insinuate any reference to water.

    and literally requires an Island to cast it.
    Costing blue mana does not make it a reference to something on an island.
    If the card had been mechanically white they could have made it white without changing the flavor at all.

    If there isn't such a definition why should I take your opinion of bleed over MaRo's?
    You shouldn't take an opinion based on who's saying it, you should listen to the arguments.

    Say what you want about my definition, it's very easy to determine if something is a break or not:

    1) Check if it is Mechanical Color Pie?
    2) Check if it was printed recently in last few sets (look at Standard, Pioneer, Modern)?
    3) If both are negative, that's a break.
    That method, while easy, is also wrong. It would for instance have counted impulsive draw as a break when it came out.
    It's very unclear how similar an effect has to be to count as recently printed, do you for instance count Curse of Swine as a Pongify effect?
    Depending on how long recently is it would also have labeled the return of mind control effects in black as a break after 7 years of not getting the effect.

    How does this definition jive with your "justifiable break" definition which I am also curious to hear.

    Moving goalpost.
    How?
    You're asking me to clearly define them, now I'm asking if you can find a place where R&D clearly defined them, because if you can't then it's neither here nor there to ask me to.

    Not said there were clearly defined, said they were verifiable. Look at MaRo's blog, look at articles on designing Magic, etc. Use latest sources over older, etc.
    Once again you cannot make a claim like this and then not show it.

    I can verify that Curse of the Swine isn't a break in that Maro has explained blue gets transform effects. Does that count?

    I'd rather be lazy than deluded that what I think is right, everyone else be damned.
    Empty accusation. I have never made this claim.
    You're the one saying bleed, bend and break is wrong, instead thinking your break/justifiable break is the correct distinction.

    Doesn't she? She's pretty much a strict White Fashist. Glory to Phyrexia, everyone else be damned.
    That justifies the character of Elesh Norn being white, not the mechanics they have designed for the card.

    Phyrexian mana is broken for other reasons. Namely life being the cheapest resource.
    It was also broken because it allowed colors to play effects outside their colors. Decks with access to Fatal Push rarely play Dismember, but decks that wouldn't otherwise have good access to removal can play it. It severely weakens one of the most important parts of the color pie, giving the colors weaknesses.

    Also I you're forgetting poor ol' Banding. It's still a worse mechanic than Phyrexian mana.
    I'll repeat myself to give you a chance to properly read it this time:
    It was one of the most poorly designed, broken mechanics in magic

    That said, I don't think phrexian mana is a break. It just enables them.
    The way phyrexian mana was implemented was a break.
    These are examples of phyrexian mana cards aren't breaks:
    Birthing Pod, Blinding Souleater, Immolating Souleater, Insatiable Souleater, Slash Panther, Spined Thopter, Vault Skirge.
    These are examples of phyrexian mana cards that are breaks:
    Act of Aggression, Apostle's Blessing, Dismember, Mutagenic Growth, Surgical Extraction, Tezzeret's Gambit.


    Phyrexia is Willing - W{PW}
    Instant
    Target creature you control gains protection from the color of your choice until end of turn.
    Draw a card.
    I'm not sure if you thought Apostle's Blessing drew a card, but it doesn't. Compared with Shelter this card is too good.

    This Is My Dismember 1B{PB}
    Instant
    Target creature gets -5/-5 until end of turn.
    You're properly showcasing exactly what the problem with phyrexian mana was, it allowed people to not play the colored mana for colored spells.
    The problem with this is it mixes mana in an ugly way.
    You wouldn't even need to do this, you could have just only included phyrexian mana on cards that could have been colorless.

    Yeah, but it encroaches on green's turf. Caring about creatures.
    No, caring about all creatures and caring about small creatures are two different things. Claiming white doesn't get to care about small creatures because green cares about all creatures is like saying white doesn't get to destroy attacking and blocking creatures, because that encroaches on black as the removal color, or that black doesn't get to cause life loss because that encroaches on red.

    Hm. No idea, must have thought it only exiles them or something. In that case you're right. Blue Transform is blue.
    If it only exiled then what would the point of the pigs be?

    Pretty sure I corrected myself eons ago.
    Where did you do that? All I can find is you arguing that it's easy to kill creatures in black.

    Me being wrong about it, is much lesser fault than you thinking black doesn't get Mind Control effects.
    I didn't think that, I explicitly wrote that mind controls were within black's color pie.

    Or Trample.
    I rectified my statement on trample the moment you pointed this out.

    The real fault here is you thinking Soul Flayer getting non-black keywords isn't the same as black getting to reanimate non-black creatures, or Odric Giving non-white keywords if you have non-white creatures.

    This is not what's happening, you're taking someone other color's mechanic, limiting it a bit and calling it "white draw". I.e. taking another color's mechanic, and calling it white.
    This statement makes no sense. Limitations are exactly what put some abilities into colors. The "attacking"
    limitation of Rebuke is what makes it white instead of black, the "You can't play cards from your hand" clause on Experimental Frenzy is what keeps it from being a blue card.

    All in order to undermine white's chief weakness - card draw.
    That used to be one of red's weaknesses as well.
    Green and blue used to have more trouble with removing creatures than they do now.
    Black gets to remove enchantments now.
    The card draw is still very restrictive, which is exactly how white gets to draw cards.

    That even in your definition of bleed should be a break.
    No it's not.
    White should get card draw, every color should get card draw. White has card draw, but not enough. This gets to be slow, keeping it from encroaching on the other color's card draw, while still being restrictive deck building wise like white's existing card draw.

    You're not doing it for set reasons, you're not doing it for flavor reasons.
    Set or flavor reasons aren't what do it. It's white because white should be able to get this effect.

    Had you come up with a novel idea, something unseen to this day, something that's still in white's purview - I'd say good job.
    Right now. I just see recycled mechanics in other colors.
    Show me another card that does this.
    Impulsive draw existed in Blue:
    Aerial Caravan

    It also got to cast them without paying the mana cost:
    Djinn of Wishes
    Mind's Desire

    It also got to do it from the opponent's library before red got Robber of the Rich and Stolen Strategy:
    Knacksaw Clique
    Nightveil Specter


    It also had Future Sight effects before red got Experimental Frenzy.

    Show me another card that does this.That's just Standard. Piledriver ain't standard.
    I said since 2018, not standard.
    You're right I shouldn't have mentioned it though, I mentioned it because it is in pioneer and was printed since 2018, so it showed up on my search, however it wasn't printed in a pioneer legal set since 2018.

    Pioneer - W:18, U: 6, B:5, R:5, G:4
    Exclude the first three blocks of Pioneer Return To Ravnica, Theros and Khans of Tarkir, and the core sets between them, and those 32 cards fall to 13, showing my point that it's something they're printing a lot less nowadays.
    Compare this to the 100 menace cards that have been printed into pioneer since those sets.

    And your example of Sun Titan is? Those abilities happened like several years ago. Last seen outside of Commander set that card was Profound Journey. A two-shot effect.
    That's not an argument, the cases aren't remotely similar.
    Protection isn't a precedence for white getting hard to block, one of the several reasons for that is that white don't get much protection anymore. Black gets a lot of hard to block effects, so there is precedence.
    Sun Titan is precedence for white getting an effect that doesn't need to show up often.

    Protection ON instants e.g. God's willing.
    Fair. That's still not a precedence for hard to block though.

    I'm merely noting your logic is faulty for saying black should get unblockable without any downsides, I made a comparisson to same thing being true for white.
    I have showed why those two aren't remotely comparable. Black has gotten hard to block effects consistently and gotten replacements whenever it lost one of its effects. It has also gotten actual unblockable. I also showed that while black only gets indestructible with downsides on creatures, it gets it without downsides of instants, so the same should be true for unblockable.
    White has only had flying.

    They still require you give up card advantage, that's a very steep price. It's same price as having a one shot effect on a instant.
    Card disadvantage isn't what makes it black though. If a color can get a card advantage effect on an instant then it can get the same effect on a cantrip for a higher cost. Cantrips are in all colors.
    Colors don't get to do everything with card advantage, but I can't think of a single effect a color only gets to do with card disadvantage, if you could give examples that would help your case greatly.

    Pretty sure we discussed it ad nauseam. That's a heavy downside as well.
    But the downside doesn't matter when you give it on an instant.
    Like with indestructible black shouldn't need the downside on instants.

    I explained it. Each time you destroy a creature, I have to regenerate it. Indestructible until end of turn, means any subsequent attempt to destroy it
    Why would I try to destroy a creature that was already indestructible.
    You haven't explained why this distinction matters, you just asserted that it did.
    In both cases, giving indestructible in response to removal, regenerating in response to removal, you're reactive.

    (not counting stack shenanigans) fizzle.
    They don't fizzle, they just don't do anything.

    It's analogous to Silence compared to Counter spell.
    No it's not. Silence is proactive, Sheltering Light is reactive. Why would you cast Sheltering Light if not as a reaction to something the opponent was doing? And in which of those situations would Mending Touch not work?

    If I cast Silence once, any subsequent spell will fizzle.
    They won't fizzle, they don't get to cast them.
    There's no subsequent spells, you usually cast silence before the opponent does anything. This is not how you use Sheltering Light.
    Also we've been over this before, this isn't how silence is used.

    If I cast Indestructible once, any subsequent destroy effect will fizzle. I have to cast Regenerate each time in response to a destroy effect.
    You still cast your indestructible effect the first time as a reaction to something destroying your creature, you don't cast it in your upkeep to keep your opponent from casting destroy effects on it.
    In order for that comparison to work indestructible effects would have to look like this:
    Can't Touch This - W
    Sorcery - C
    Split Second
    Target creature is indestructible until end of turn.

    For sake of example... Defeat is a sorcery speed, in order to bypass stack shenanigans.
    It's a horrible example. Usually there's only one defeat. Also a lot of removal spells are instant speed, so in those cases the comparison also falters.
    You don't cast Sheltering Light in your opponent's upkeep to keep him from casting Defeat, you cast it in response to Defeat.
    Making your creature indestructible deals with the second removal spell proactive the 5% of the time they have the second removal spell and it's sorcery speed, it deals with the first removal spell reactively 100% of the time.

    2. Those are all counterspell effect. It's up in the air, if white gets counterspell again.
    In the Mechanical Color Pie 2017 article counterspells are listed as tertiary in white.

    3. Told you already. Removing instants would mechanically cripple white. Also white is allowed to preprare counter measures, just not draw for them.
    That's not an argument. You're just saying "white doesn't get to be reactive except when it does".
    The case isn't that white isn't allowed to be reactive, but it would be too bad if it wasn't, so we make it reactive anyways. And even if that was the case then that wouldn't be an argument for white not getting to react with regenerate, since it gets to react with indestructible.

    You still haven't explained where you got this idea that white isn't allowed to be reactive.

    It should be also noted, of the three colors that investigate, white had the least Investigate.
    It got 6 against green's 7. That's hardly enough to make a point. They could have easily made 10 for each during design and then just cut the ones they didn't like and that was how it ended up, it doesn't need to be intentional that green got more.

    But, in a set that wants to give white draw, going for token or token creatures that draw cards is not a bad idea.
    I agree.
    I also like the idea of the "draw" effect of Ugin, the Ineffeable in white.

    Citation needed.
    That's still not an argument.
    Commander is their most popular non kitchen table format, the fact that one of the colors still has such a massive disadvantage in this format is a huge issue.

    I only saw them talking about them discussing Howling Golem effect in white.
    You're aware Howling Golem is a reference to Howling Mine?
    It's typically called Howling Mine effects.

    No, it's the draw part.
    No, it's not.
    Maro has said multiple times that white gets to draw card on heavy build around cards. The problem with Dawn of Hope is that it isn't build around, because it provides the card draw to trigger it itself.
    Well of Lost Dreams should be fine in white.

    Congratulations, you posted a completely irrelevant quote.
    White doesn't get to draw if it would draw all its answers, it does get to draw from build around. Life gain is build around.

    The quote is also dead wrong. You can't claim white has the worst flexibility when it gets O-Ring effects.

    Heavily disagree. Inspiring Commander would turn Modern Lifegain deck I've seen from a nuissance into a nightmare. Wait, so you get life and counters and tokens and draw and ... everything.
    If you think Soul Sisters would even want to play a 6 drop that doesn't just win you the game then you clearly know very little of the format.
    Archangel of Thune is so much better in that deck it hurts. And they don't even play that, their curve tops at Ranger of Eos. Archangel of Thune is played in toolbox decks that play it with spikefeeder.
    Soul Sisters haven't top8ed a competitive modern event since 2017.

    The only modern deck I think would maybe want to run Inspiring Commander is Black/White tokens with Windbrisk Heights.

    Imagine Archpriest of Thune,
    Archangel.

    Soul Sisters,
    Oh noes, one drops with lifegain.

    Hearld of War,
    Imagine playing Herald of War in modern. Cast your five drop that should be what was winning you the game, but instead you need to cast additional cheap spells in order to make your even more expensive card cheaper. That's a very bad combo.

    Oketra's monument
    Now that's spicy, but not that good. You're playing a three mana artifact that's not very high impact.

    and This guy. You play a white creature spell and you get tokens and counters for days.
    Imagine getting to resolve all that and not just having won already.
    Cathar's Crusade or Divine Visitation followed up by Spectral Procession isn't close to being good enough for modern, why would this be?

    Soul Sisters isn't even that good a deck, and it certainly doesn't play these cards.
    Imagine being salty over a bad version of a tier 3 deck.

    Also it's brilliant example according to you - I think it's meh, other think it's a break, etc.
    It's a brilliant example according to many. It follows the rule of being restrictive, it feels distinctly white, because green would never have a card like this, and it fills a niche.

    For this next part you didn't reply to my question properly. My question wasn't what the problem with playing cards form the graveyard was, my question was why it was relevant that you got to play multiple cards each turn if you had multiple in play, as compared with one a turn if you had one in play.

    It leads to stale and repetitive gameplay.
    It only lets you replay one card and only cmc 3 or less. It costs 4 mana so you still have mana left, meaning you still want to play cards from your hand.
    I don't think this was a problem with Muldrotha, so it won't be a problem with this.

    It devalues point of removal.
    So does Shaper's Sanctuary, and that's a lot cheaper.
    Countermeasures to removal are allowed to exist.

    It's everything wrong with Buyback somehow made into a permanent.
    No it's not. Buyback was on instant and sorceries, meaning you always got them back immediately, sometimes you could even cast it several times a turn.
    This is based on permanents, it only lets you recast it if it dies, and even then only once unless you have multiple copies in play, and at that point you deserve to get powerful plays.

    It's miserable in Limited
    You seem to have a very poor understanding of most of magic's formats.
    This is probably a limited bomb, it gives you a lot of value, but there are way better cards in limited printed regularly.

    - Oh you don't have 30 removals. Guess you lose, huh?
    Lose? To my cmc 3 or less cards?
    I would much rather just have a Dream Trawler or Kiora Bests the Sea God in limited than this.

    It's overpowered in constructed - Oh, you don't have the exact removal needed to remove this creature? Too bad.
    A four mana enchantment that allows you to replay cheap creatures, while still paying for them?
    Have you even played constructed?
    It's slow against mono red, and every other deck can answer it.
    Graveyard hate also gets it.
    Planeswalkers routinely generate more value than this.
    I think it's a good card, but I really can't see what deck you think it would be overpowered in.

    I'm saying it's a horrible repeatable effect, on a slightly easier to remove card and you're answer is doubling down on the wrongness?
    I have no idea what you're trying to say here.
    Sun Titan has an ETB and doesn't require you to pay anything, and that's not good in modern.

    Not sure if you can compare like that.
    Here is your qoute:
    Dying to removal, means it can be cheaper than an enchantment. Enchantment are harder to remove than creatures.
    Yet Collector Ophee and Stony Silence cost the same, so how doesn't that compare?
    Your claim that creatures get to be cheaper than enchantments because they die to removal is outright false.

    But Benalish Marshal is close to Anthem (albeit WWW rather than 1WW). That said, I'd still be vary of putting it on an enchantment.
    Anthems for 1WW rarely get played, Benalish Marshal was a very good card in his standard environment. What point are you trying to make?

    Especially in white, that can search enchantment.
    For 3 mana. That's not something you need to be afraid of.

    Play from graveyard is black/green.
    Unless it's instant or sorceries in which case it's red/blue.
    Or Underworld Breach
    Or Emry

    White doesn't usually cast from the graveyard, but it returns from graveyard to play, and from graveyard to hand, both of which are comparable to playing from the graveyard.

    It blurs the line between your hand and your graveyard.
    All colors get graveyard interaction.

    White that believes in order an hierarchy would see this as something against its philosophy.
    The fact that white has plenty of graveyard recursion proves that this isn't true.

    Plus, if you equate them, then you are blurring lines between green/black and white.
    No more than Sun Titan already does.

    From a mechanical point, yeah, return is better. It's also super rare. White gets a very limited effect - i.e. creatures, permanents with mana cost <3, creatures with mana cost <2, etc.
    The bolded part is literally the restriction on my card.

    Journey being the slight exception.
    And Emeria Shephard.

    From a philosophy standpoint, this would be something white is against. Blurring the line between life and death = No. Ressurection as a reward to worthy = yes.
    Why do you think my card is blurring the line rather than ressurection for the worthy?

    From a color standpoint, stop trying to blur the lines between white, green and black.
    I'm not. This is a white card. A black/green card wouldn't care about cmc.

    Another type of counters on creatures. That's a no-no in NWO. Set gets one type of counters per permanents (with some small exceptions).
    Each set gets either +1/+1 or -1/-1 counters, and then one other type of counters. This could be that type for that set.

    Not to mention, since this is permanents, you can't have any other type of counters on them as well.


    To answer:
    - A relevant body that can be killed with deathtouch.
    This is niche.

    - So does your Bringback - it works the same turn it is used. Like Muldrotha
    Then you need to pay mana. Then you're paying the same as Sun Titan for a worse effect.

    - Recuring Bring Back is not difficult either.
    It's much harder to recur an enchantment than a creature. Also Sun Titan triggers when you bring it back giving it a ton of combo potential.

    - That's hyper slow.
    Sun Titan + Saffi Eriksdotter + Altar of Dementia is Hyper slow?

    A 4CMC that can help me recur my threats and protect them from a board wipe.
    4cmc is a lot in most formats, and this only recurs your cheap threats and only one a turn.

    - Sure, that's why it appears every blue moon


    Luckily for White, a lot of answers come in form of nice small bodies.
    That's still very restrictive and that's not what he meant.
    By that logic Recruiter of the Guard would also not be allowed.

    I called upon Discord as a sanity check. Because talking to you is taking its toll on my sanity.
    The irony of this statement is staggering.

    It's impulse draw with extra steps. You adding extra hoops doesn't make it unique enough.
    I explained why it wasn't impulse draw at all, you're just repeating the same point I have already debunked.

    So, no, I and others concur, these designs you have are not white or at least fully white. You could pass it as WR, but not W.
    Not an argument. "I asked some people and they agree with me" is not a valid argument, you've tried this before.

    Inspiring Commander is an experiment. And other than one single format, it's not legal anywhere, so not well tested at all.
    It still proves that everyone at R&D don't take Maro's word as gospel.

    Bygone Bishop is probably closest to what you can get away as white draw. Highly set specific. Maro thinks Bygone Bishop is Ok. White is allowed to draw if it forces to specialize in a very thematic way or something.
    How is Bygone Bishop more restrictive than Mentor of the Meek, aside from requiring one more mana for the draw?
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    Default Re: MTG Share your Card Designs II

    Quote Originally Posted by Emmerlaus View Post
    Grask, Returned to Nature - 2WUG
    Legendary Artifact Creature - Gargoyle Elemental
    Flying
    Land creatures you control are indestructible and cannot be sacrificed
    1, Exile a creature card from a graveyard: Put one +1/+1 counter on a land you control. If it's not a land creature, It become a Elemental creature.
    I still haven no idea why this is a gargoyle rather than just an elemental. An artifact creature that cares about creature lands doesn't feel very cohesive.
    Magic uses can't instead of cannot.
    If you want to exile the card on resolution it needs to be put after the colon.
    I still don't know why your land creature tribal card cares about removing creatures from graveyards.
    Also the effect is way too weak. Turning a land into a creature makes it more vulnerable, so turning it into a 1/1 isn't worth it.
    I think you should give it a different clause to animate.
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    Default Re: MTG Share your Card Designs II

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    You said it yourself, planar tint. We haven't returned to new Phyrexia.
    Sure, but they could have added a minus to toughness somewhere if it really was a bend.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Stop saying that, a justified break is a bend, that is what a bend means.
    Stop trying to distinguish between the two.
    I won't. Then I get into pointless squabble what isn't and is a bend.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    You're acting like phyrexian mana was a totally fine mechanic and not one that has 2 cards banned or restricted in Modern, Legacy or Vintage.
    Stop conflating broken and a break.
    Something can be broken, without being a break - Oko, Thief of Crowns.
    Something can be a break, without being broken - Mentor of the Meek (for RnD), Elesh Norn (for you).

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    It could give one creature -1/-1, it would still be a break.
    Disagree. If Elesh Norn was +1/+1 creatures you control and -1/-1 your opponent controls, it would be justifiable IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    This is again purely anecdotal. It very much depends on how serious the players at you LGS are.

    Because they care about Magic cards, and they care about what cards might be printed in the future. His blog is a way to keep up with that.
    Then you can't claim most LGS members know about blogatog.

    I mean, if you play Modern, you already know what cards are there. It's an Eternal format. Fretting over potential things Mark says on blog is super non-important. Most of the stuff he talks about never sees light of day.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    This was an assertion made without a sliver of an argument to back it up. Hanlon's Razor is routinely used against conspiracy theories, and those routinely involve more than 100 people.
    Neither does your Hanlon's Razor. You do know Murphy's Law is not a Bible, but a book of funny "laws"?

    Any organization larger than 100 people are going to have a psychopath. Usually in charge. That's not a conspiracy, that's statistics. And some in org is going to have to cover for them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Because the use of mana is so fundamental to the game that if you don't like that then what are you even doing?
    Oh, no. If only there was some way to play more than one game! If only I didn't have to choose one game to play for the rest of my life. Oh wait, that's not how reality works.

    Here is an honest question to you - if you don't care what I think, what MaRo thinks, and what Discord thinks (and by extension everyone else), why are you even posting?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    No, it's not. I have already explained why it isn't. I have replied to each of your arguments, while you just ignore mine.
    Sure, whatever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    You shouldn't take an opinion based on who's saying it, you should listen to the arguments.
    I've listened and nothing you've said has convinced me that "Bends are just breaks we're not willing to admit" is any better than whatever RnD wrote on Core, Mantle, of colors.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    That method, while easy, is also wrong. It would, for instance, have counted impulsive draw as a break when it came out.
    We had this discussion before, pretty sure I argued the opposite thing. I suggested white ramp, you were adamant it shouldn't get it. And I've agreed to your points.
    Now, we have same discussion except it's something RnD has heavily argued against.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    It's very unclear how similar an effect has to be to count as recently printed, do you for instance count Curse of Swine as a Pongify effect?
    You look for the latest effect, so Pongify < Curse of Swinge < Ichthyomorphosis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Depending on how long recently is it would also have labeled the return of mind control effects in black as a break after 7 years of not getting the effect.
    Well, then check the Mechanical Color Pie. It's apparently regularly updated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    How does this definition jive with your "justifiable break" definition which I am also curious to hear.
    Justifiable is the subjective part, but generally, if it is in the theme of the setting, or it has really great flavor, then yeah, go for it.

    I told you, like a red flag, sometimes you can keep it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    How?
    You're asking me to clearly define them, now I'm asking if you can find a place where R&D clearly defined them because if you can't then it's neither here nor there to ask me to.

    Once again you cannot make a claim like this and then not show it.
    Look on a case by case basis in Mark's blog, on the articles, etc. I can tell you easily Elesh Norn in R&D is considered a bend, it's a 2 min search.

    I am not a Google Search engine. Do your own homework.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Empty accusation. I have never made this claim.
    No, you just behaved like this.

    MaRo agrees with me? I'm right. MaRo disagrees with me? He's wrong.
    Others like my mechanic? I'm right. Do others dislike my mechanic? They're wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    That justifies the character of Elesh Norn being white, not the mechanics they have designed for the card.
    It also justifies her ability. Her first static ability gives +2/+2 to Elesh Norn's Phyrexia. Her second gives -2/-2 to everyone else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    It was also broken because it allowed colors to play effects outside their colors. Decks with access to Fatal Push rarely play Dismember, but decks that wouldn't otherwise have good access to removal can play it. It severely weakens one of the most important parts of the color pie, giving the colors weaknesses.

    The way phyrexian mana was implemented was a break.
    Ok, but I'm talking mechanics, not implementation. The implementation is the reason it sucked. They should have either:
    a) Kept some amount of regular mana
    b) Made it is on a colored creature, but it's ability cost Phyrexian mana

    Or what you suggested, kept it on artifact/colorless creatures.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    I'll repeat myself to give you a chance to properly read it this time:
    Sure. I stand by what I said. You're giving Phyrexian mana too much flak. Is it one of worst mechanics ever designed? No. That's 9 and 10 on storm scale.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    I'm not sure if you thought Apostle's Blessing drew a card, but it doesn't. Compared with Shelter this card is too good.
    Moving goalpost, never maid claims on its balance - although I disagree WW, or W, pay 2 life is significantly different than Shelter.
    I said it wasn't a break. If I can design a card with Phyrexian mana without it being a break, it proves Phyrexian mana isn't the issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    The problem with this is it mixes mana in an ugly way.
    Disagree. It looks pretty nice to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    No, caring about all creatures and caring about small creatures are two different things. Claiming white doesn't get to care about small creatures because green cares about all creatures is like saying white doesn't get to destroy attacking and blocking creatures, because that encroaches on black as the removal color, or that black doesn't get to cause life loss because that encroaches on red.
    Well, to be honest, it kinda does. When white had better creature removal than black (e.g. Path to Exile, Sword to Plowshares), why even have black?
    Having powerful, cheap creature removal in white, undermines the power of black. Having limited creature removal otoh is better, but still depends on efficiency. If Rebuke was W, it would definitely encroach on black.
    Although I disagree on life loss vs damage. They are different enough that people won't confuse the two.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Where did you do that? All I can find is you arguing that it's easy to kill creatures in black.

    I didn't think that I explicitly wrote that mind controls were within black's color pie.
    You wrote that black didn't get Mind control in seven or more years. When it literally got it in Eldraine and M20.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    This statement makes no sense. Limitations are exactly what put some abilities into colors. The "attacking"
    limitation of Rebuke is what makes it white instead of black, the "You can't play cards from your hand" clause on Experimental Frenzy is what keeps it from being a blue card.
    Not just limitation. Pricing as well. If Rebuke is W and exiles a creature? Well **** Fatal Push, gimme more 1CMC Exile-Rebuke.
    I don't feel your cards are sufficiently white.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    That used to be one of red's weaknesses as well.
    Green and blue used to have more trouble with removing creatures than they do now.
    Black gets to remove enchantments now.
    The card draw is still very restrictive, which is exactly how white gets to draw cards.
    And once color pie moves to include white draw, I'll be glad to be wrong.

    But not today.
    Neither is this the way to do it, nor is this the intended way R&D allows white draw, nor the effect they are thinking to turn into a white draw.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Show me another card that does this.
    Impulsive draw existed in Blue:
    Aerial Caravan

    It also got to cast them without paying the mana cost:
    Djinn of Wishes
    Mind's Desire

    It also got to do it from the opponent's library before red got Robber of the Rich and Stolen Strategy:
    Knacksaw Clique
    Nightveil Specter
    So Impluse draw existed around the time Black had Vigilance? Not very persuasive. Sure, it proves Color Pie moves, but not that it should move in the way you want it.

    All other examples aren't impulse draws (they aren't free) or similar to Robber of the Rich. You can't pay in generic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    I said since 2018, not standard.
    You're right I shouldn't have mentioned it though, I mentioned it because it is in pioneer and was printed since 2018, so it showed up on my search, however, it wasn't printed in a pioneer legal set since 2018.

    Exclude the first three blocks of Pioneer Return To Ravnica, Theros and Khans of Tarkir, and the core sets between them, and those 32 cards fall to 13, showing my point that it's something they're printing a lot less nowadays.
    Compare this to the 100 menace cards that have been printed into pioneer since those sets.
    Moving goalpost, I said white gets most of these effects. Not that it got them too many recently. Your argument was black had some evasion ergo black should get hard evasion. To me, that's flawed reasoning. I.e. a color can do something at a penalty, ergo it should get to do it without a penalty.

    Want to apply the 2018 filter to my argument? Since 2018, black got one hard evasion, by saccing a creature when attacking (Bloodmist Infiltrator). The other was Modern specific Tormented Wandered.

    Maybe you need a better example -
    Black got Bloodmist Infiltrator, ergo it should get hard unblockable.
    White got Angelic Purge, ergo it should get Murder.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Protection isn't a precedence for white getting hard to block, one of the several reasons for that is that white don't get much protection anymore. Black gets a lot of hard to block effects, so there is precedence.
    Sun Titan is precedence for white getting an effect that doesn't need to show up often.
    To be clear: Protection isn't precedence for getting hard to block, Bloodmist Infiltrator isn't precedence for "unblockable" without a downside and Angelic Purge isn't precedence for getting Murder.

    I'm just noting your inconsistent way of arguing things. I.e. Sun Titan is ok, even though he appears in standard set about 8-9 years ago. And Emeria and Profound Journey it happened 5 years ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Card disadvantage isn't what makes it black though.
    Ok. Find a black card that has "Can't be blocked" without it giving up card advantage or blocking? Or failing that find me in Mechanical Color Pie, where it says "can't be blocked" is black?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Why would I try to destroy a creature that was already indestructible.
    This must be a troll, you can't be this stupid. I explained to you already.

    Here is an even more simplified and contrived example:
    Your opponent has single enchantment cards in play and no cards in hand, all his lands are tapped and his next draw is a land and yours is a 3 mana planeswalker (i.e. irrelevant).
    Enchantment card says "At the beginning of each opponents' upkeep destroy all creatures opponent controls, then destroy all creatures opponent controls. If at the end of their turn, an opponent controls no creature they lose the game."

    You have no cards in hand, you have 1 land and an artifact creature that says:

    1: Regenerate this creature.
    T, 1: This creature gains indestructible until the end of turn.

    At the start of your turn upkeep the enchantment card opponent controls triggers.
    Do you pay for regenerate or pay for indestructible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    They don't fizzle, they just don't do anything.
    Nitpick. They fizzle as in, they don't do anything. Not like hexproof can fizzle a spell.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    You still cast your indestructible effect the first time as a reaction to something destroying your creature
    That's literally why I used sorcery speed and instant speed. So stack wouldn't get involved.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    In the Mechanical Color Pie 2017 article counterspells are listed as tertiary in white.
    And I said it's up in the air. But as they are with white getting counterspell, in theory, they aren't a break.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    That's not an argument. You're just saying "white doesn't get to be reactive except when it does".

    You still haven't explained where you got this idea that white isn't allowed to be reactive.
    In Mechanical Color Pie
    White is the proactive color, stopping things from before they happen (as opposed to blue being reactive, stopping things as they happen).
    White is very proactive. Order is all about creating rules and laws to prevent something bad from happening.
    https://markrosewater.tumblr.com/pos...-article-today

    Also in The Great White Way Revisited. White is all about establishing rules to prevent suffering. That's inherently proactive. It doesn't mean white can't react. It means it's not as flexible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    It got 6 against green's 7. That's hardly enough to make a point. They could have easily made 10 for each during design and then just cut the ones they didn't like and that was how it ended up, it doesn't need to be intentional that green got more.
    Green has more investigate -AND- more investigate generators:
    https://scryfall.com/card/soi/195/briarbridge-patrol
    https://scryfall.com/card/soi/236/ulvenwald-mysteries
    https://scryfall.com/card/soi/233/tireless-tracker

    vs
    https://scryfall.com/card/soi/8/bygone-bishop
    (Declaration in stone doesn't count)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Commander is their most popular non kitchen table format, the fact that one of the colors still has such a massive disadvantage in this format is a huge issue.
    Is Bygone Bishop outside white in Commander? Is Dawn of Hope? Is Mentor of the Meek? Does White commander prevent you from using bunch of draw artifacts? I think mono-white commander is fine, you're just overreacting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    You're aware Howling Golem is a reference to Howling Mine?
    Yes. Although I was under the impression they were talking about Golem specifically. They weren't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Maro has said multiple times that white gets to draw card on heavy build around cards. The problem with Dawn of Hope is that it isn't build around, because it provides the card draw to trigger it itself.
    Well of Lost Dreams should be fine in white.
    Maro said following:

    We’ve allowed a very narrow application where white can draw cards, where white has to dedicate its deck to a very specific, in flavor theme
    https://markrosewater.tumblr.com/pos...cards-in-white

    The solution to White’s Commander problem is not figuring out how to draw more cards. That just flies against White’s core weakness. White needs to find ways to do white things that help in Commander. Some of those effects can even be new things that philosophically fit. That’s what we’re working on.
    https://markrosewater.tumblr.com/pos...card-draw-in-a

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Congratulations, you posted a completely irrelevant quote.
    White doesn't get to draw if it would draw all its answers, it does get to draw from build around. Life gain is build around.
    I didn't. You just ignored the big part of it.

    That’s white’s main weakness. It has the best suite of answers, but the worst card draw. It can deal with any problem, if it knows what it is, but has the worst flexibility.
    Dawn of Hope is according to MaRo near-break. White gets life-gain, creature generation, but it doesn't get card draw. Why would DoH be a break because of life gain/creature generation?

    Also giving Well of Lost Dreams to white would break it. Plain and simple.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    The quote is also dead wrong. You can't claim white has the worst flexibility when it gets O-Ring effects.
    Not sure what you mean by this. Banisher effect exile a thing, until it leaves play. It's not like you can change the target. Also yeah, MaRo is wrong again, I'm right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    If you think Soul Sisters would even want to play a 6 drop that doesn't just win you the game then you clearly know very little of the format.
    Archangel of Thune is so much better in that deck it hurts. And they don't even play that, their curve tops at Ranger of Eos. Archangel of Thune is played in toolbox decks that play it with spikefeeder.
    Soul Sisters haven't top8ed a competitive modern event since 2017.
    Yeah, but with Herald, and Thune you could potentially make your Inspiring commander cost 2CMC.

    Funny enough - Inspiring Commander never went through R&D, which would explain a lot.
    https://markrosewater.tumblr.com/pos...at-can-only-be

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    It's a brilliant example according to many.
    Ah yes. "I and people who agree with me". Fine for thee, but not for me. Also, who are these people?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    For this next part you didn't reply to my question properly. My question wasn't what the problem with playing cards form the graveyard was, my question was why it was relevant that you got to play multiple cards each turn if you had multiple in play, as compared with one a turn if you had one in play.
    Let me answer your question with another question - How is more of the wrong thing not wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    It only lets you replay one card and only CMC 3 or less. It costs 4 mana so you still have mana left, meaning you still want to play cards from your hand.
    I don't think this was a problem with Muldrotha, so it won't be a problem with this.
    So, basically, in constructed it's going to allow you to play all your cards again and again and again and again. Muldrotha was also more expensive and demanded a tri color deck. This. Doesn't. You can play it in WU.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    So does Shaper's Sanctuary, and that's a lot cheaper.
    Countermeasures to removal are allowed to exist.
    Shaper's sanctuarry doesn't turn your graveyard into your hand. One big way it differs is that it doesn't make counterspell obsolete.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    No it's not. Buyback was on instant and sorceries, meaning you always got them back immediately, sometimes you could even cast it several times a turn.
    This is based on permanents, it only lets you recast it if it dies, and even then only once unless you have multiple copies in play, and at that point, you deserve to get powerful plays.
    Oh, my much difference. You are right though.

    It's worse than Buyback. Buyback on counterspell doesn't return to hand. This essentially does. Since your graveyard is your hand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    You seem to have a very poor understanding of most of magic's formats.
    This is probably a limited bomb, it gives you a lot of value, but there are way better cards in limited printed regularly.
    Maybe. I don't play Standard, I play mostly Modern. And I don't play commander often. But your understanding doesn't seem much better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Lose? To my CMC 3 or less cards?
    I would much rather just have a Dream Trawler or Kiora Bests the Sea God in limited than this.
    Because no deck with CMC 3 or less ever won, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    A four mana enchantment that allows you to replay cheap creatures, while still paying for them?
    That price can be reduced, same for creature price. Or it can be used in control matchups.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Graveyard hate also gets it.
    Assuming you get to cast graveyard hate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Planeswalkers routinely generate more value than this.
    Or, planeswalkers can be used to fuel this. T3feri is a thing. This can return it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    I think it's a good card, but I really can't see what deck you think it would be overpowered in.
    Recursion is problematic. I suspect this is overpowered. I'm not 100% sure of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Sun Titan has an ETB and doesn't require you to pay anything, and that's not good in modern.
    Sun Titan costs 6CMC, and in Modern, if you aren't winning by turn 3 your are either losing or control.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Yet Collector Ophee and Stony Silence cost the same, so how doesn't that compare?
    Green vs White. Green generally gets beefier creatures, it could upset the P/T calculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Unless it's instant or sorceries in which case it's red/blue.
    Or Underworld Breach
    Or Emry
    Ah, the Legacy banned Underworld Breach. I consider that and Emry a break. I might be wrong about this.

    Blue gets affinity for artifacts and the ability to put them in hand. Still, no other card like that seems to exist and recurring artifacts from the graveyard aren't its color pie.
    I'm near certain Underworld Breach should be black.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    White doesn't usually cast from the graveyard, but it returns from the graveyard to play, and from the graveyard to hand, both of which are comparable to playing from the graveyard.
    I'd still consider it a break, lacking any part of Magic Color Pie and any precedence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    All colors get graveyard interaction.
    True, but that's like saying all colors get Scry. Technically, true. But white doesn't get Opt or Serum Visions.

    To clarify, they all get different graveyard interaction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    The fact that white has plenty of graveyard recursion proves that this isn't true.
    And the fact it happens relatively rarely should tell you graveyard recursion is a problematic thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    The bolded part is literally the restriction on my card.
    Yes. And? I'm listing how it's limited and how it appears rarely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Why do you think my card is blurring the line rather than resurrection for the worthy?
    What does Emeria do? Reward you for getting lands - especially Plains.
    What does Sun Titan do? Reward you for attacking (and summoning it).
    This is essentially taking Muldrotha's effect and sticking it on enchantment and limiting to one per turn and CMC.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    I'm not. This is a white card. A black/green card wouldn't care about cmc.
    You sure about that? How about you check your statements before you make them?
    https://scryfall.com/card/m20/94/cavalier-of-night
    https://scryfall.com/card/mh1/113/unearth
    https://scryfall.com/card/grn/71/gruesome-menagerie

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    This could be that type for that set.
    So your entire set will be based around glass counters on artifacts, creatures, lands, enchantments and planeswalkers Good luck with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Sun Titan + Saffi Eriksdotter + Altar of Dementia is Hyper slow?
    I look forward to Ninjaman, winner of the next MTG World championship.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    That's still very restrictive and that's not what he meant.
    By that logic Recruiter of the Guard would also not be allowed.
    White is allowed to tutor for relevant creatures. Check the Mechanical color pie. Then again they are phasing out tutor mechanics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    I explained why it wasn't impulse draw at all, you're just repeating the same point I have already debunked.
    No, you've argued. You haven't debunked anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Not an argument. "I asked some people and they agree with me" is not a valid argument, you've tried this before.
    Ah, yes. The "LALALA...Can't hear you" defense.

    I didn't say they agreed with me. I listed their complaints. One said that effect overall is weird, but settled on an RW. Others said that the effect couldn't be white and belonged to green.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    It still proves that everyone at R&D don't take Maro's word as gospel.
    AFAIU, that card never went through R&D, it seems it was created by people making the MTG Arena. Plus it's a free card, which means it can be taken at any time.

    https://markrosewater.tumblr.com/pos...at-can-only-be

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    How is Bygone Bishop more restrictive than Mentor of the Meek, aside from requiring one more mana for the draw?
    More thematically restrictive, and works only in a thematically relevant deck (in Limited), fits White's philosophy (i.e. artifact friendly in a set that promotes artifacts). Plus, it costs 2 mana to draw.
    Last edited by -D-; 2020-03-16 at 07:59 AM.

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    Default Re: MTG Share your Card Designs II

    Quote Originally Posted by Emmerlaus View Post
    Grask, Returned to Nature - 2WUG
    Legendary Artifact Creature - Gargoyle Elemental
    Flying
    Land creatures you control are indestructible and cannot be sacrificed
    1, Exile a creature card from a graveyard: Put one +1/+1 counter on a land you control. If it's not a land creature, It become a Elemental creature.

    ====

    The effect will be upon resolution I guess.

    Its less OP this way? Only a +1/+1 counter on one target land for each card in the graveyard. Reapeatable at instant speed yes.
    I agree with Ninja on this. This needs one hell of a reason to be an Gargoyle Elemental. Either it's a gargoyle shaped elemental i.e. elemental, or a gargoyle. Only way a creature can have two primary types (e.g. Human Horror or Fish Rhino) is that it is some horrible twisted mutant. Was Grask an unnatural abomination? If no, he can't be a Gargoyle Elemental.

    Other than that. You're missing power/toughness (P/T) of Grask.

    As it is, his main ability is very meh. putting +1/+1 counter on target land is very... underwhelming. Also again doesn't work, because you have Elemental creature no base power/toughness. You can't say something is a creature. It needs to get base P/T.

    Why not go:

    1, Exile a creature card from a graveyard: Target noncreature land you control becomes a 3/3 Elemental creature that's still a land. Untap that land and it gains haste until end of turn.

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    Default Re: MTG Share your Card Designs II

    Quote Originally Posted by -D- View Post
    Sure, but they could have added a minus to toughness somewhere if it really was a bend.
    Not if as you said it was only justified by being on New Phyrexia
    I don't believe in the planar tint I have to say, but Maro seems to.

    I won't. Then I get into pointless squabble what isn't and is a bend.
    You still do that, only now it's a pointless squabble about what's a "justified break" and what isn't.

    Stop conflating broken and a break.
    Something can be broken e.g. Oko without being a break.
    Something can be a break, without being broken - Mentor of the Meek.
    I'm not. This was, however, a fine way of trying to avoid getting to make an actual reply.


    Disagree.
    It is an effect there is no precedence for in white.

    Not with the way you define break.
    Explain.

    If Elesh Norn was +1/+1 creatures you control and -1/-1 your opponent controls, it would be justifiable IMO.
    "It would be justifiable IMO" is not an argument.
    There is no precedence for the effect in white and saying "but phyrexia is black" doesn't allow you to put black effects on nonblack cards.

    Then you can't claim most LGS members know about blogatog.
    And you can't claim they don't.

    I mean, if you play Modern, you already know what cards are there. It's an Eternal format. Fretting over potential things Mark says on blog is super non-important. Most of the stuff he talks about never sees light of day.
    1. New cards effect modern all the time.
    2. Most players play formats beside modern, even if only limited.

    Neither does your Hanlon's Razor. You do know Murphy's Law is not a Bible, but a book of funny "laws"?
    You're the one who assumes malicious intent. The burden of proof is on you.
    You're the one saying "Maro isn't being truthful in his claims, so I'll just go ahead and ignore it."

    Oh, no. If only there was some way to play more than one game! If only I didn't have to choose one game to play for the rest of my life. Oh wait, that's not how reality works.
    My point is that if you don't understand the need for mana then you don't understand magic.

    Here is an honest question to you - if you don't care what I think, what MaRo thinks, and what Discord thinks (and by extension everyone else), why are you even posting?
    I do care, about actual criticism, not the troll arguments you seem so fond of using.

    You missed out the part about Curse of the Swine. I'll repost it for you:

    "I have no idea why either of these would be arguments.
    Nowhere on Curse of the Swine does it even insinuate any reference to water."

    "Costing blue mana does not make it a reference to something on an island.
    If the card had been mechanically white they could have made it white without changing the flavor at all."

    Sure, whatever.
    What a brilliant argument.

    I've listened and nothing you've said has convinced me that "Bends are just breaks we're not willing to admit" is any better than whatever RnD wrote on Core, Mantle, of colors.
    Are you actually trolling me?
    "Bends are just breaks we're not willing to admit" was your stance. And you're right it's not any better, it's a lot worse.

    We had this discussion before, pretty sure I argued the opposite thing. I suggested white ramp, you were adamant it shouldn't get it. And I've agreed to your points.
    I believe I also in that discussion provided several examples of white ramp, which you agreed with.
    But I guess it doesn't support your argument to acknowledge that.

    You didn't explain how this method would have allowed impulsive draw or Experimental Frenzy.

    Now, we have same discussion except it's something RnD has heavily argued against.
    Which is?

    You look for the latest effect, so Pongify < Curse of Swinge < Ichthyomorphosis.
    That's not how any of this works.
    Is Experimental Frenzy an argument against the printing of Outpost Siege effects?
    The same effect can be obtained multiple different ways, the fact that one of them was used most recently does not discredit the other.

    Well, then check the Mechanical Color Pie. It's apparently regularly updated.
    But that's kind of my point, mind controls were still in black even though they haven't been printed for 7 years, so your method doesn't work.

    Justifiable is the subjective part, but generally, if it is in the theme of the setting, or it has really great flavor, then yeah, go for it.
    There are a lot of things that can make something a bend instead of a break, but flavor is a very small one.
    Mechanics are by far the most important factor, and when something is described as a bend rather than a break that is usually because the mechanics of the card reflect this, having found a way to put an effect into a color that doesn't usually get it with some relevant limitation.

    I told you, like a red flag, sometimes you can keep it.
    No, that's not how bends and breaks work.
    Yes you probably don't want too many bends in a set, but it's not "sometimes you can keep it".

    Look on a case by case basis in Mark's blog,
    No, you asked me to define bend and break, I am asking where R&D defined these, not for specific cases.

    on the articles, etc. I can tell you easily Elesh Norn in R&D is considered a bend, it's a 2 min search.
    I know, we've talked about it already.

    I am not a Google Search engine. Do your own homework.
    You asked me to give you the definitions, I am asking where R&D have the definitions.

    No, you just behaved like this.

    MaRo agrees with me? I'm right. MaRo disagrees with me? He's wrong.
    Others like my mechanic? I'm right. Do others dislike my mechanic? They're wrong.
    This is a massive projection on your part.
    Every time I have disagreed with anything I have provided arguments for my case.
    It's amazing how you get to claim Maro can be wrong when it suits you, but I can't.

    You left out this part:
    You're the one saying bleed, bend and break is wrong, instead thinking your break/justifiable break is the correct distinction.

    It also justifies her ability. Her first static ability gives +2/+2 to Elesh Norn's Phyrexia. Her second gives -2/-2 to everyone else.
    Being a white dictator does not justify getting a black ability no.

    Ok, but I'm talking mechanics, not implementation. The implementation is the reason it sucked. They should have either:
    When talking about a mechanic we're talking about the implementation unless otherwise specified.
    Cipher sucked because all the cards with it sucked. The mechanic itself was pretty powerful.

    a) Kept some amount of regular mana
    b) Made it is on a colored creature, but it's ability cost Phyrexian mana

    Or what you suggested, kept it on artifact/colorless creatures.
    But they didn't, and therefore phyrexian mana was a mistake.

    Sure. I stand by what I said. You're giving Phyrexian mana too much flak.
    I am giving flak to the implementation. That they could have made Phyrexian mana without printing dismember doesn't matter, because they did print Dismember.

    Moving goalpost, never maid claims on it's goodness or not
    It's a moving goalpost to require your designs to follow power balance?

    although I disagree WW, or W, pay 2 life is significantly different than Shelter.
    2 life is much better than one mana, especially because the decks that would want this are aggressive. Did you already forget about the whole phyrexian mana thing?

    I said it wasn't a break. If I can design a card with Phyrexian mana without it being a break, it proves Phyrexian mana isn't the issue.
    I already agree that you can make non color broken cards with phyrexian mana.
    That doesn't change that the way they implemented phyrexian mana was filled with breaks.
    When talking about a mechanic we're not just talking about the pure idea, we're also talking about the implementation.

    Disagree. It looks pretty nice to me.
    I think Maro has said somewhere that they try not to mix mana like this, this is also why you don't see cards with gold and hybrid costs like B(B/G)G.
    The phyrexian mana symbol also has a slightly different tint, but I assume they wouldn't do that if they mixed them.

    Well, to be honest, it kinda does. When white had better creature removal than black (e.g. Path to Exile, Sword to Plowshares), why even have black?
    But this was exactly because it didn't have sufficient downsides.
    This is what I wrote:
    "is like saying white doesn't get to destroy attacking and blocking creatures, because that encroaches on black as the removal color"
    Path to Exile and Swords to Plowshares don't fall into this category.

    Having powerful, cheap creature removal in white, undermines the power of black.
    Which is exactly why it gets removal with limitations to not encroach on black's colorpie.

    Having limited creature removal otoh is better, but still depends on efficiency. If Rebuke was W, it would definitely encroach on black.
    In standard it would maybe be too good, but in eternal I don't see it.
    Condemn actually sees a bit of play in modern in UW control. It puts on the bottom which is actually better than destroying, and the life gain isn't very relevant, decks that want to destroy attacking creatures aren't that aggressive. It's not played in Esper or Jeskai control though, as Push and Bolt are both much better.
    Limiting yourself to attacking creatures is a very large drawback.

    Although I disagree on life loss vs damage. They are different enough that people won't confuse the two.
    You say that, yet how many cards have "Damage causes loss of life" written in reminder text?
    How different are they effectively? How often does the distinction between them actually come up?

    You wrote that black didn't get Mind control in seven or more years. When it literally got it in Eldraine and M20.
    I'm sorry, did you completely forget what I said?
    I'll repost it:
    "But the point I made later in my last comment still stands, there was a span between 2011 where Enslave was Reprinted, Captivating Vampire and Olivia Voldaren were printed, up until 2017 where Captivating Vampire and Olivia Voldaren was reprinted, which was then followed up by new effects in 2018 and 2019. During that time, 2011 to 2017 no black Mind Control effects were printed, yet the ability remained black."
    The 7~ years were 2011 to 2017.

    Not just limitation. Pricing as well. If Rebuke is white and exiles a creature? Well **** Fatal Push, gimme More 1CMC Exile-Rebuke.
    If it was limited to attacking creatures then Push would still be better.
    Rebuke is pretty much this. It's mostly played as one of in UW control.
    You keep making statements about balance that makes it clear you're not that great at judging what is actually good in constructed.

    I don't feel your cards are sufficiently white.
    This is a pretty empty statement.

    And once color pie moves to include white draw, I'll be glad to be wrong.
    I look forward to it.

    But not today.
    Neither is this the way to do it, nor is this the intended way R&D allows white draw, nor the effect they are thinking to turn into a white draw.
    So is this.


    So Impluse draw existed around the time Black had Vigilance?
    You mean on one card?
    Also the other effects were newer, yet you completely ignored that.

    Not very persuasive. Sure, it proves Color Pie moves, but not that it should move in way you want it.
    It proves that your logic doesn't hold.
    Impulsive draw makes sense in blue, no one would claim it was out of color for blue, but it fits much better in red, and gives it something it needed.

    All other examples aren't impulse draws (they aren't free)
    Being free isn't what makes impulsive draw impulsive draw. There are several sorceries that impulsive draw.

    or similar to Robber of the Rich. You can't pay in generic.
    That's still similar.
    Being able to pay any color is a way they designed this effect later, because the other was bad design.
    Thief of Sanity is definitely a similar design to Nightveil Specter.

    Moving goalpost,
    I said to start with that they didn't get much protection recently, there is no moving of any goal posts.

    I said white gets most of these effects. Not that it got them too recently.
    And I explained how the fact that white doesn't get it often makes it a bad precedence for hard to block, even if protection was hard to block.

    Your argument was black had some evasion ergo black should get hard evasion.
    No it wasn't. I've explained this multiple times.
    Black has hard evasion on creatures.
    Black has always had hard to block effects, and whenever an effect was discontinued it was given a new one.
    The same isn't true for white.

    To me that's flawed reasoning. I.e. a color can do something at a penalty, ergo it should get to do it without a penalty.
    Black has indestructible at a penalty on creatures, yet it gets indestructible without a penalty on one shot effects.
    How is that not a precedence for doing the same thing with unblockable?

    Want to apply the 2018 filter to my argument? Since 2018, black got one hard evasion, by saccing a creature when attacking (Bloodmist Infiltrator).
    That's a faulty comparison.
    You're saying protection is an unblockable like effect.
    Yet hard unblockable is actual hard unblockable, it is not an unblockable like effect.
    The black unblockable like effect is menace, which it has gotten on 33 cards since 2018.

    Maybe you need a better example -
    Black got Bloodmist Infiltrator, ergo it should get hard unblockable.
    Way to still completely miss the argument even though I have typed it out multiple times.
    Modern Horizons got changeling outcast.

    White got Angelic Purge, ergo it should get Fatal Push or at least Grotesque Demise.
    It does

    Possibly you noticed that card too, because you corrected it to murder, to which I will say, those two cards aren't even remotely similar.

    I'm just noting your inconsistent way of arguing things. I.e. Sun Titan is ok, even though he appear in standard set about 8-9 years ago. And Emeria and Profound Journey it happened 5 years ago. But
    No you're not, you're completely misrepresenting arguments.
    You seem to have a knack for forgetting the context arguments were used in.
    I did not claim that protection appearing rarely is an argument for white not getting protection like effects.
    My argument for black getting unblockable included that black had fear and intimidate, and has menace. Each of those replaced the previous, so black has always had a hard to block keyword, R&D have made sure black always has access to it, because it's a part of the identity of black.
    Unlike that, landwalk, which appeared in all colors, and protection, which isn't proper evasion, were your arguments for white also being able to get hard to block, but landwalk has been discontinued, protection is rare, and neither have been replaced by a different type of evasion, because it's less a part of white's identity. This is also why white doesn't have any creatures with hard unblockable.
    Also they're both color hate, which is in all colors, but white tend to get the most of it.

    Ok. Find a black card that has "Can't be blocked" without it giving up card advantage or blocking?
    I don't think it counts but Ghastlord of the Fugue
    Ogre Marauder has unless the opponent gives up card advantage.
    But I'm not arguing for "can't be blocked" without a downside on creatures, I'm arguing for it on spells. On spells the "Can't block" disadvantage is meaningless/an upside.

    Also Dreamstutter, which was the source for this discussion, even if it didn't make the unblockable creature irrelevantly unable to block, it also was unblockable itself.

    Or failing that find me in Mechanical Color Pie, where it says "can't be blocked" is black?
    If it doesn't say that, shouldn't that also mean black doesn't get Tormented Soul, since the Mechanical Color Pie also includes keywords with restrictions? (All the colors are mentioned under card draw, but only blue which is in primary gets it without restrictions).

    This must be a troll, you can't be this stupid. I explained to you already.
    This must be a troll. The "logic" where Sheltering Light is a proactive card makes absolutely no sense.

    Here is an even more simplified and contrived example:
    Don't worry, your previous examples were plenty contrived.

    Your opponent has single enchantment cards in play and no cards in hand, all his lands are tapped and his next draw is a land.
    Enchantment card says "At the beginning of each opponents' upkeep destroy all creatures opponent controls, then destroy all creatures opponent controls. If at the end of their turn, an opponent controls no creature they lose the game."

    You have no cards in hand, you have 1 land and an artifact creature that says:

    1: Regenerate this creature.
    T, 1: This creature gains indestructible until the end of turn.

    At the start of your turn upkeep the enchantment card opponent controls triggers.
    Do you pay for regenerate or pay for indestructible?
    Wow. You did warn me that it was contrived but I really did not expect you to jump through this many hoops in an attempt to prove your insane point.
    Since you like mentioning your discord so much try showing them this argument for instant speed indestructible being proactive and see what they say. Ask them if they think Sheltering light is proactive while you're at it.

    Take this example:
    You have a 2 drop creature and three mana untapped, your opponent has no creatures and three mana untapped, you swing with your 2 drop, your opponent casts murder, you cast Sheltering Light to protective.
    Is Sheltering Light not used Proactively?

    Take this example:
    Your opponent untaps with a wasteland and three other lands. You have a lethal board and one untapped Breeding Pool and a Mending Touch in hand. During their drawstep they wasteland your breeding pool to keep you off counter mana. In response you cast Mending Touch on your biggest creature. They have a Day of Judgement in hand.
    Was the Mending Touch not used reactively?

    Both instant speed indestructible and regeneration are used reactively 99% of the time. Indestructible being usable proactively a tiny sliver more often doesn't keep effects like Sheltering Light from being reactive effects.

    Nitpick. They fizzle as in, they don't do anything. Not like hexproof can fizzle a spell.
    Fizzle has actual meaning, don't use it for something else.

    That's literally why I used sorcery speed and instant speed. So stack wouldn't get involved.
    The stack is involved, you give your creature indestructible at instant speed in response to the first defeat.

    And I said it's up in the air. But as they are with white getting counterspell, in theory, they aren't a break.
    White having counterspells in tertiary is not the same as Counterspell, the actual card, in white not being a break. When talking about counterspells in white Maro is mostly talking about delaying effects like Memory Lapse and Delay.

    White is the proactive color, as in proactive stuff tends to be white, not as in white isn't allowed to be reactive.

    Also in The Great White Way Revisited. White is all about establishing rules to prevent suffering. That's inherently proactive. It doesn't mean white can't react.
    Your last sentence is so true.
    So why was your argument against white getting regenerate that it was reactive?

    White has the most rares that investigate.

    (Declaration in stone doesn't count)
    I'm sorry, weren't you the guy who used Path to Exile as an argument for white ramp?

    Is Bygone Bishop outside white in Commander? Is Dawn of Hope? Is Mentor of the Meek? Does White commander prevent you from using bunch of draw artifacts? I think mono-white commander is fine, you're just overreacting.
    It's very obvious you know nothing of what you're talking about. White being the weakest mono color in commander has been widely acknowledged for a long time.

    Make this statement on your card design discord server and show what response you get.

    That disagrees with my statement how?
    Life gain is a very narrow in flavor theme. The problem with Dawn of Hope is it can give you life by itself, so it's not narrow anymore.

    I didn't. You just ignored the big part of it.
    You have yet to explain how the qoute was relevant.

    Dawn of Hope is according to MaRo near-break.
    Are you telling me it's not even a break?

    White gets life-gain, creature generation, but it doesn't get card draw. Why would DoH be a break because of life gain/creature generation?
    White gets card draw from narrow build around. The lifegain makes the card draw no longer narrow build around because Dawn of Hope fulfills its requirement itself.
    Look at Twisted Reflection. It does two individually blue things, but the entwine is black because those individually blue things combined give minus toughness, which blue isn't allowed to do.

    Also giving Well of Lost Dreams to white would break it. Plain and simple.
    Being able to draw multiple cards per trigger, maybe, if it was an effect that only drew one then definitely not. Life gain falls under the narrow build around strategy Maro is talking about.

    Not sure what you mean by this. Banisher effect exile a thing, until it leaves play. It's not like you can change the target. Also yeah, MaRo is wrong again.
    Oblivion Ring answers any nonland permanent, name me another color that gets to do that.
    Being unable to change the target doesn't make in unflexible, you can't change the target of most kill spells.
    An answer being flexible means it answers a lot of different things. Oblivion Ring answers a lot of different things.

    Yeah, but with Herald, and Thune you could potentially make your Inspiring commander cost 2CMC.
    If you've played your five drops first yeah.
    This is so slow that I feel bad for you if you lose to it.

    You seem to have ignored the rest of my comment where I showed your fears were for nothing.

    Funny enough - Inspiring Commander never went through R&D, which would explain a lot.
    https://markrosewater.tumblr.com/pos...at-can-only-be
    Does not being run by the council of colors mean it wasn't run by R&D?
    I think Maro is just sad not everyone hate white as much as he does.

    Also major L to Maro for "I don't think it wouldn't have been made".

    Who? Who are these people? Do they know this never went through R&D?
    Commander players.
    Players who realize that in a card game every color should have card draw.

    Let me answer your question with another question? How is more of the wrong thing not wrong?
    White isn't allowed to give +4/+4 on anthems, yet if I have two +2/+2 anthems that's exactly what I get.
    One of your arguments against the card was that with multiples you could cast multiple cards from your graveyard, but that shouldn't matter for anything, if it's okay to recast one spell every turn with one enchantment, then it's okay to recast two with two enchantments.

    So, basically, in constructed it's going to allow you to play all your cards again and again and again and again. Muldrotha was also more expensive and demanded a tri color deck. This. Doesn't. You can play it in WU.
    So does Sun Titan, except you don't need to pay.
    That will probably be good in standard, not in modern. If it's for commander we can just print it in a commander precon.

    Shaper's sanctuarry doesn't turn your graveyard into your hand.
    Neither does this, unless they made a new rule that said you can only cast one spell each turn.

    Oh, my much difference. You are right though.
    It's a pretty huge difference.
    Look at the amount of effects that give you creatures back to your hand when they die. Now compare that to effects that do the same with instant and sorceries.

    It's worse than buyback. Buyback on counter spell doesn't return to hand. This essentially does. Since your graveyard is your hand.
    Buyback is on instant and sorceries, you get those back immediately and can use them again, this just makes it more likely your creatures stick.

    Maybe. I don't play Standard, I play mostly Modern. And I don't play commander often.
    Don't make this certain comments about power level if you're this poor at judging it.

    Because no deck with CMC 3 or less ever won, right?
    Only CMC 3 or less cards? In limited? Rarely
    You seem to once again have forgotten the context.
    You were arguing that it was broken in limited, but Kiora Bests the Sea God and Dream Trawler are way better.

    That price can be reduced, same for creature price. Or it can be used in control matchups.
    Reduce the price with what?
    It's going to be very hard to do those efficiently.
    It's good against control, but so is Assemble the Legion.

    Assuming you get to cast graveyard hate.
    Yeah, Tormods Crypt and Leyline of the Void are 0 mana, who can pay that?

    Or, planeswalkers can be used to fuel this. 3ferei is a thing. This can return it.
    That's more an argument against 3feri than this, but planeswalkers were the type I was the most unsure about, so that could be removed.

    Recursion is problematic. I suspect this is overpowered. I'm not 100% sure of it.
    It's a lot less problematic when you still have to pay and it's limited to once a turn.

    Sun Titan costs 6CMC, and in Modern, if you aren't winning by turn 3 your are either losing or control.
    And playing this and a 2 drop is also 6 mana. Turn 5 this plus a one drop isn't good either.
    Where do you see this being good in modern.

    Green vs White. Green generally gets beefier creatures, it could upset the P/T calculation
    A 2/2 is a beefy creature?
    Do you really don't think white gets hate effects on 2/2s?
    You have yet to give an example of your statement being true.

    Ah, the Legacy banned Underworld Breach. I consider that and Emry a break. I might be wrong about this.
    You are wrong about this.
    What happened to "Something can be broken, without being a break"?

    Blue gets affinity for artifacts and the ability to put them in hand. Still, no other card like that seems to exist and recurring artifacts from the graveyard aren't its color pie.
    If you can recur to hand then you can cast from graveyard, it's effectively the same.

    I'm near certain Underworld Breach should be black.
    Maro calls it a bend.
    I agree that it doesn't feel red, but I don't think it's black either, black shouldn't cast artifacts and enchantments from your graveyard.
    I don't think any color actually gets to recast any card type, but green might be closest since it gets to return any color, but it definitely doesn't feel green.

    I'd still consider it a break, lacking any part of Magic Color Pie and any precedence.
    Returning from graveyard to play is precedence for casting those cards from the graveyard. Returning from graveyard to hand is too.

    True, but that's like saying all colors get Scry. Technically, true. But white doesn't get Opt or Serum Visions.
    All colors get scry, all colors get cantrips, not all colors get cantrips that scry.

    To clarify, they all get different graveyard interaction.
    And part of white's graveyard interaction is returning cheap stuff.

    And the fact it happens relatively rarely should tell you graveyard recursion is a tricky thing.
    This card doesn't need to be printed more than once.

    Yes. And? I'm listing how it's limited and how it appears rarely.
    It does happen though, so that's not an argument against this card.

    What does Emeria do? Reward you for getting lands - especially Plains.
    And my card rewards you for playing cheap stuff.

    What does Sun Titan do? Reward you for attacking (and summoning it).
    That's not an argument when even the blue titan does that.

    This is essentially taking Muldrotha's effect and sticking it on an enchantment and giving it a restriction.
    You keep acting like restrictions don't matter.
    Experimental Frenzy is essentially Future Sight with a restriction.

    Let me reiterate:
    If this was a black card it wouldn't care about cmc.
    I didn't mean no black card cares about cmc.
    Those cards all cheat the card into play, so they restrict cmc for ballance.
    Bring Back makes you pay, so that's not an issue.

    So your entire set will be based around glass counters on artifacts, creatures, lands, enchantments and planeswalkers. Good luck with that.
    No, it doesn't need to appear multiple times.
    You are allowed +1/+1 or -1/-1 counters and one other type of coutners. How you use the other one is up to you.

    I look forward to Ninjaman, winner of the next MTG World championship.
    I didn't claim it was modern playable, but it's not hard in commander.
    Calling it hyper slow is a pretty big hyperbole, especially since you only need one in play already and the other in the yard.

    White is allowed to tutor for relevant creatures. Check the Mechanical color pie.
    Yet Maro said it wasn't allowed to draw its answers, so why can it tutor for them?

    No, you've argued. You haven't debunked anything.
    Yes I did.
    Impulsive draw allows you to cast it right away, but it has a deadline. This doesn't let you draw it right away but it has no deadline. How are they comparable besides both exiling cards from your library and giving card advantage?

    Ah, yes. The "LALALA...Can't hear you" defense.
    "I asked some people and I swear they agree with me" isn't an argument.
    If they had any new argument you could present them, if they didn't then it's not worth anything.

    I didn't say they agreed with me. I listed their complaints. One said that effect overall is weird, but settled on an RW. Others said that the effect couldn't be white and belonged to green.
    Again I don't care what you claim some randos on the internet think. I care about arguments, I don't care about baseless opinions.

    AFAIU, that card never went through R&D, it was created by people making the MTG Arena. Plus it's a free card, which means it can be taken at any time.

    https://markrosewater.tumblr.com/pos...at-can-only-be
    Fair.
    I still think it should be within white, at least with a cost. The idea that white has to struggle this much to draw cards isn't sustainable when commander is the most popular non kitchen table format.

    More thematically restrictive,
    How?

    and works only in a thematically relevant deck (in limited),
    How does your limited deck play more 1 power creatures than cmc 3 creatures unless you have tokens up the wazoo?
    Would Mentor of the Meek be okay if it limited it to nontokens then?

    fits White's philosophy (i.e. artifact friendly in a set that promotes artifacts).
    How is friendly to 1/1s not white?

    Plus, it costs 2 mana to draw.
    So mentor would be fine if it cost 2 to draw?

    If a mentor of the meek effect that costs 2 to draw and doesn't trigger off tokens is okay I'm actually fine with that. You could probably make it power 2 or less at that point.


    Bridge from Limbo - 2WW
    Enchantment - R
    At the beginning of each end step, choose target creature card in your graveyard that was put there from the battlefield this turn. Return it to the battlefield.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Not if as you said it was only justified by being on New Phyrexia
    Said, it was justified by being on a black tinted plane. If it was just a bend, I'd expect it to appear more often.

    Eh, they have white giving -1/-1 counters why not give some -1/-1 until end of turn in a black tinted plane

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    I'm not. This was, however, a fine way of trying to avoid getting to make an actual reply.
    Your question was invalid. "You're acting like phyrexian mana was a totally fine mechanic" has no point if we are talking about color breaks. Break != Broken.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Explain
    Your way of defining break/bend is subjective. I don't know what or what not you think. And have no way to verify.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    "It would be justifiable IMO" is not an argument.
    And yours isn't.
    There is no precedence for the effect in white and saying "but phyrexia is black" doesn't allow you to put black effects on nonblack cards.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    1. New cards effect modern all the time.
    2. Most players play formats beside modern, even if only limited.
    Sure. But do new cards appear in MaRo's blog before on other channels? Does Mark discuss things that never pan out?
    Why would you use MaRo's blog post to predict what decks will be played?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    "Maro isn't being truthful in his claims, so I'll just go ahead and ignore it."
    It's more nuanced than that. Maro or RnD's action don't follow from what they write, they are paid to save face of their company, and their livelihood depend on it.
    In liue of that "Bends are breaks we don't want to admit" makes sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    My point is that if you don't understand the need for mana then you don't understand magic.
    I play many games, and follow game design, why do you think I don't understand mana.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    I do care, about actual criticism, not the troll arguments you seem so fond of using.
    I get it. If I disagree I'm a troll. Very intellectual.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    You missed out on the part about the Curse of the Swine. I'll repost it for you:
    I still think it's a reference to mage turning some sort of sailors to swine, but honestly, I don't care about this point.

    To me, the number of references is too much to just be some soliders, but for you it isn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Are you actually trolling me?
    No. Are you? "Bends are things I think are bends, everyone else is wrong", is a better viewpoint?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    I believe I also in that discussion provided several examples of white ramp, which you agreed with.
    And I believe I made some examples of the white draw and suggested some changes. Also deflecting, you know RnD hates white draw.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    You didn't explain how this method would have allowed impulsive draw or Experimental Frenzy.
    They changed the color pie. They added an ancient blue effect to red and made https://scryfall.com/card/jou/106/pr...c-flamespeaker

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Which is?
    White doesn't get to draw efficiently. Want to draw, either build some heavy deck around

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    But that's kind of my point, mind controls were still in black even though they haven't been printed for 7 years, so your method doesn't work.
    Your argument, was Mind Control wasn't printed since, lemme check:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Black has tertiary creature control but hasn't received an effect since Scars block.
    So Scars was printed in 2010. In 2017 you get an article listing Mind Control as black. Black gets black mind control on Captivating Vampire. Since then they print more mind control effects.

    In other words: Articles >> MaRo's blog. New >> Old.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Mechanics are by far the most important factor, and when something is described as a bend rather than a break that is usually because the mechanics of the card reflect this, having found a way to put an effect into a color that doesn't usually get it with some relevant limitation.
    Disagree. What helps is how people perceive the cards. If you make a mechanically interesting thing that no one gets is white - then it isn't white.

    What helped impulse draw was that it was a sparsely used mechanic. So they moved it to Red. Similar to Mind Control. Mind control was rarely in black. At time Black got it, it didn't have too much claim to it, compared to white (with Preacher, Evangelize, and debt of loyalty).

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    No, you asked me to define bend and break, I am asking where R&D defined these, not for specific cases.
    They define it in their writing, in broad strokes in various articles, but on a card to card basis in MaRo's blog.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    This is a massive projection on your part.
    Every time I have disagreed with anything I have provided arguments for my case.
    It's amazing how you get to claim Maro can be wrong when it suits you, but I can't.
    Ah, the "I'm not X, you're X argument".

    My claim was that MaRo is always wrong. You however, base your bleed/break distinction on his writing, except when you disagree. Which I like to point out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Being a white dictator does not justify getting a black ability no.
    To quote a poet: Overall flavor matters.
    Red can get life gain if the card demands it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    When talking about a mechanic we're talking about the implementation unless otherwise specified.
    Cipher sucked because all the cards with it sucked. The mechanic itself was pretty powerful.

    But they didn't, and therefore phyrexian mana was a mistake.
    No. When we talk about mechanic we talk about the mechanic. In general. On any possible card.

    When we discuss cards, we discuss individual cards. Also, something sucking and not sucking has nothing to do with being a color break.

    Otherwise:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    That they could have made Phyrexian mana without printing dismember doesn't matter, because they did print Dismember.
    Let's entertain this ""logic"" - Oko was OP, ergo planeswalkers are OP, ergo Planeswalkers are a color break.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    It's a moving goalpost to require your designs to follow power balance?
    It was a 2min example. I didn't sit and balance it out. Maybe I could have given it vigilance instead of cantrip, those details are sorted out later.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    2 life is much better than one mana, especially because the decks that would want this are aggressive. Did you already forget about the whole phyrexian mana thing?
    Not always. Life is a resource but a context dependent one. Didn't forget.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    That doesn't change that the way they implemented phyrexian mana was filled with breaks.
    When talking about a mechanic we're not just talking about the pure idea, we're also talking about the implementation.
    Look, they implemented transform effects wrong (see Oko), does it invalidate transform effects? Or + abilities on planeswalkers?

    You thinking about mechanic in only what exists, is a very narrow view I don't subscribe

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    I think Maro has said somewhere that they try not to mix mana like this
    Citation needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    "is like saying white doesn't get to destroy attacking and blocking creatures, because that encroaches on black as the removal color"
    And I explained just below. Give white hyper efficient removal, even on attack/block, and it's going to encroach on black. White has "fair" solutions pricy with a downside. Just downside isn't enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    In standard it would maybe be too good, but in eternal I don't see it.
    Name a better removal for white in Pioneer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    You say that yet how many cards have "Damage causes loss of life" written in reminder text?
    There is exactly 13 cards that have that reminder. There is 71 cards that have flying as a reminder.

    Reminder is there for new players, learning the game. I've seen 8-year-olds figure out the difference. What was your point?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    I'm sorry, did you completely forget what I said?
    Did you? Let me quote it:
    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Black has tertiary creature control but hasn't received an effect since Scars block.
    You didn't say 7 years. You said since Scars. That's 10 years.

    This is debunked. Next, around june 2017 mechanical color pie was written. And in august 2018 Captivating Vampire was printed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    If it was limited to attacking creatures then Push would still be better.
    Would it? My proposal also exiles. That means no graveyard shenanigans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    You mean on one card?
    Also the other effects were newer, yet you completely ignored that.

    Being free isn't what makes impulsive draw impulsive draw. There are several sorceries that impulsive draw.

    That's still similar.
    Being able to pay any color is a way they designed this effect later, because the other was bad design.
    Yes. Also I didn't ignore your cards, stop being so attention hogging.

    Other cards weren't impulsive draws. They were exile - cast for free. So Impulsive cast?
    And exile opponent's library - pay in non-generic. Which was mill basically.
    Pay in generic is not impulsive draws - that's stealing. And it appears on various Mind Stealers, Hostage Takers and Robbers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    It proves that your logic doesn't hold.
    No. It proves, Color pie moves. However, it doesn't move on your whim.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Black has hard evasion on creatures.
    And a downside.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    How is that not a precedence for doing the same thing with unblockable?

    But I'm not arguing for "can't be blocked" without a downside on creatures, I'm arguing for it on spells. On spells the "Can't block" disadvantage is meaningless/an upside
    Against color pie. No precedence.

    And I think you explained why there is no precedence for black not getting can't block with a downside. Adding a meaningful disadvantage would render it pointless, and adding a meaningless restriction would encroach on blue's turf.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Possibly you noticed that card too, because you corrected it to murder, to which I will say, those two cards aren't even remotely similar.
    No, Last breath was a typo when copy/pasting.

    Angelic purge is "Exile creature, artifact or enchantment" at a downside (sacrifice creature). Murder is more restricted form of removal. No downside, different mana cost 1WW and only creature and doesn't exile. It's even a one shot effect!


    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Since you like mentioning your discord
    Funny enough when I used to argumentation you did, they said - "your conception of what constitutes a reactive card is weird".

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Wow. You did warn me that it was contrived but I really did not expect you to jump through this many hoops in an attempt to prove your insane point.
    You avoided my question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Both instant speed indestructible and regeneration are used reactively 99% of the time. Indestructible being usable proactively a tiny sliver more often doesn't keep effects like Sheltering Light from being reactive effects.
    Pretty sure I explained. White is allowed to react, and it has best answers and no way to pull them on demand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Fizzle has actual meaning
    True, I should have been more specific. This is you I'm dealing with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    White is the proactive color, as in proactive stuff tends to be white, not as in white isn't allowed to be reactive.

    So why was your argument against white getting regenerate that it was reactive?
    If I did claim white can't react, then I was wrong. White can react, but it isn't flexible in reacting. One large part of flexibility is being able to DRAW it's anwers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    White has the most rares that investigate.
    Irrelevant to discussion. One rare usually gives Investigate to the opponent. Green has more Investigate generators and more effective too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    I'm sorry, weren't you the guy who used Path to Exile as an argument for white ramp?
    Yes. For a card that turned a creature into a Plains.

    Are you saying Declaration in Stone is a card draw? If so, that's a very, very lousy card draw.
    So exile your own creatures for Clues (limited to 4 at best), vs. dying nontokens generating Clues, or just attacking? Gimme those uncommon greens.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    It's very obvious you know nothing of what you're talking about. White being the weakest mono color in commander has been widely acknowledged for a long time

    Make this statement on your card design discord server and show what response you get.
    I did. Responses varied, from nah white, doesn't need to draw, to yeah it does.

    Also, why would you play mono-color, when you can play multicolor and shore its vulnerabilities?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    That disagrees with my statement how?
    Life gain is a very narrow in flavor theme.
    In what world is life gain a narrow theme? White gets too much incidental life gain.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Are you telling me it's not even a break?
    Maro said it was an experiment, and stradling the line between a heavy bend and a break, whatever that mean.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Oblivion Ring answers any nonland permanent, name me another color that gets to do that.
    Blue, Green.
    Also White gets best hate cards, not sure what your point is here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Commander players.
    Players who realize that in a card game every color should have card draw.
    So commander players twice? Some people in Discord were hostile to white card draw idea. Guess, they don't play commander.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    if it's okay to recast one spell every turn with one enchantment, then it's okay to recast two with two enchantments.
    I never said it's ok to recast one spell every turn.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Neither does this, unless they made a new rule that said you can only cast one spell each turn.
    No, this just adds 1-4 cards from graveyard to hand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Buyback is on instant and sorceries, you get those back immediately and can use them again, this just makes it more likely your creatures stick.
    Yes. I know. It still leads to repetivie gameplay and it devalues answers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Don't make this certain comments about power level if you're this poor at judging it.
    Same.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Yeah, Tormods Crypt and Leyline of the Void are 0 mana, who can pay that?
    Wow, if only white was good at removing artifacts and enchantments.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    It's a lot less problematic when you still have to pay and it's limited to once a turn.
    It's not limited to once per turn. It's limited to 1-4 per turn.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    And playing this and a 2 drop is also 6 mana. Turn 5 this plus a one drop isn't good either.
    Turn 5? I can see this being played turn 3. Get enchantments cost 1 less, this enters turn 3. Then you somehow dump your library to graveyard and you get free draws.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    What happened to "Something can be broken, without being a break"?
    Not my argument, just a side note.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    If you can recur to hand then you can cast from a graveyard, it's effectively the same.
    It's on one legendary blue card and it needs to tap. Still better limit than Bring Back.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Maro calls it a bend.
    Told you before. Bend is a break you're not willing to admit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Returning from graveyard to play is precedence for casting those cards from the graveyard. Returning from graveyard to hand is too.
    You have some precedence for that? In white?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    And part of white's graveyard interaction is returning cheap stuff.
    And black.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    This card doesn't need to be printed more than once.
    Then it won't help white's woes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    And my card rewards you for playing cheap stuff.
    Not really. It rewards letting your cheap stuff die.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    You keep acting like restrictions don't matter.

    Impulsive draw allows you to cast it right away, but it has a deadline. This doesn't let you draw it right away but it has no deadline. How are they comparable besides both exiling cards from your library and giving card advantage?
    You keep acting like flavor doesn't matter. And to me it doesn't feel white. Even if mechanically different.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    If this was a black card it wouldn't care about cmc.
    Pretty sure I gave an example of black card that cares about cheap stuff. Hypotethicals don't interest me. The effect already existing in another color interests me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Those cards all cheat the card into play, so they restrict cmc for ballance.
    And Titan/Emeria/profound Journey don't cheat cards into play?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    You are allowed +1/+1 or -1/-1 counters and one other type of counters. How you use the other one is up to you.
    You're allowed to have one type of counters per permament, everything above is just bad design.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Yet Maro said it wasn't allowed to draw its answers, so why can it tutor for them?
    Tutoring is getting phased out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Again I don't care what you claim some randos on the internet think. I care about arguments, I don't care about baseless opinions.
    And MaRo's opinions if they conflict with your own.

    Too tired. Not answering rest.
    Last edited by -D-; 2020-03-16 at 10:55 PM.

  18. - Top - End - #558
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    Quote Originally Posted by -D- View Post
    Said, it was justified by being on a black tinted plane. If it was just a bend, I'd expect it to appear more often.
    Not if their argument for it being a bend was that it made thematic sense.
    I'm not saying he's right, he's not. But claiming he lies is no way to conduct an argument.

    Eh, they have white giving -1/-1 counters why not give some -1/-1 until end of turn in a black tinted plane
    There are two effects, both from this set. One was Gore Vessal which is absolutely a break, and the second Choking Fumes, which could still be a break, but it is at least limited to attacking creatures. None of these give precedence for a reverse anthem.
    Do you think Elesh Norn is a break or not?

    Your question was invalid. "You're acting like phyrexian mana was a totally fine mechanic" has no point if we are talking about color breaks. Break != Broken.
    You choose to once again ignore my point.
    Phyrexian mana is a horrible argument, it is one of the worst color break designs ever made.

    Your way of defining break/bend is subjective. I don't know what or what not you think. And have no way to verify.
    If it was subjective then how can you make that claim?

    And yours isn't.
    There is no precedence for the effect in white and saying "but phyrexia is black" doesn't allow you to put black effects on nonblack cards.
    How is that not an argument?
    That's pretty much the entire argument for something being a color, what is the precedence for it.

    Sure. But do new cards appear in MaRo's blog before on other channels? Does Mark discuss things that never pan out?
    Why would you use MaRo's blog post to predict what decks will be played?
    They're not using it for cards, they might see that some mechanics they light might get reprinted or whatever.
    They don't need to follow the blog, I don't follow it. But if you care about magic and keep somewhat up with what is happening in magic, you're going to hear about it at some point.

    It's more nuanced than that. Maro or RnD's action don't follow from what they write, they are paid to save face of their company, and their livelihood depend on it.
    Stop using this conspiracy theory as an argument.

    In liue of that "Bends are breaks we don't want to admit" makes sense.
    It doesn't. It especially doesn't because you're making the distinction between justified and unjustified breaks, which ends up being essentially the same thing.
    Bends aren't any better than your "justified breaks".

    I play many games, and follow game design, why do you think I don't understand mana.
    Because you think Magic would be better without it.

    I get it. If I disagree I'm a troll. Very intellectual.
    The irony of this statement is staggering.

    I still think it's a reference to mage turning some sort of sailors to swine, but honestly, I don't care about this point.
    How? Explain where on the card it points towards it being sailors.

    To me, the number of references is too much to just be some soliders, but for you it isn't.
    What are the references? Please state them. I can only see "turning people into pigs".

    No. Are you? "Bends are things I think are bends, everyone else is wrong", is a better viewpoint?
    You're saying the same thing, you're just labeling it as "justified breaks" as if there is any difference between the two.

    They changed the color pie. They added an ancient blue effect to red and made https://scryfall.com/card/jou/106/pr...c-flamespeaker
    The point is they didn't just change it, it fits in red.
    My argument is that my cards fit in white. Argue against that.

    White doesn't get to draw efficiently. Want to draw, either build some heavy deck around
    It doesn't need to draw efficiently, it just needs to draw more efficiently than it does now.

    Your argument, was Mind Control wasn't printed since, lemme check:
    And I later corrected that.

    So Scars was printed in 2010. In 2017 you get an article listing Mind Control as black. Black gets black mind control on Captivating Vampire. Since then they print more mind control effects.
    It wasn't put in black then though. It was in black the entire time, it just wasn't always getting printed. It's tertiary, that doesn't need to be something you get often.

    Disagree. What helps is how people perceive the cards. If you make a mechanically interesting thing that no one gets is white - then it isn't white.
    Mechanics is by far the most important factor. Flavor doesn't matter if it undermines the color pie.
    Psionic Blast has blue flavor, but it's very much not a blue card.

    What helped impulse draw was that it was a sparsely used mechanic. So they moved it to Red. Similar to Mind Control. Mind control was rarely in black. At time Black got it, it didn't have too much claim to it, compared to white (with Preacher, Evangelize, and debt of loyalty).
    And my effect is widely used?

    They define it in their writing, in broad strokes in various articles, but on a card to card basis in MaRo's blog.
    That's not a very good argument then.
    You can't expect me to have clear definitions when R&D don't have them.

    My claim was that MaRo is always wrong.
    Okay I'm done.
    I'm not going to reply to the next until you explain how this isn't just a blatant troll, or an insane conspiracy theory.
    How can the lead designer ALWAYS be wrong?
    Last edited by Ninjaman; 2020-03-17 at 01:17 AM.
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  19. - Top - End - #559
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    Default Re: MTG Share your Card Designs II

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    But claiming he lies is no way to conduct an argument.
    I didn't say he lies, I said to cover up and use PR. Good PR - never lies. It just takes a constructive approach to the truth - our cigars aren't generic toxic piece of tobacco, they are "toasted", "cured", etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    There are two effects, both from this set.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Do you think Elesh Norn is a break or not? None of these give precedence for a reverse anthem.
    Pretty sure I said yes. Why do you want me to repeat this point?
    I said the reverse anthem is justified in flavor (. What I dislike about it, is the amount of power it has.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    You choose to once again ignore my point.
    Phyrexian mana is a horrible argument, it is one of the worst color break designs ever made.
    Here is the thing. Phyrexian mana as a mechanic isn't a break, even by your definition. The cards they made with it WERE. Phyrexian mana being improperly balanced is on RnD.

    Phyrexian Vanguard 1W
    Creature - Soldier
    {P/W}{P/W}: Phyrexian Vanguard gains indestructible until end of turn.
    2/1

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    If it was subjective then how can you make that claim?
    Because it's asking around and exploring, everyone had their own meaning what "bend/break" was. If this was an objective thing. Like White has a Symbol of Sun, it would be easily verified and not cause as much debate as it did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    How is that not an argument?
    That's pretty much the entire argument for something being a color, what is the precedence for it.
    I told you precedence is important but isn't everything. Even Mechanical color pie isn't perfect. That's why taking more data helps.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    It especially doesn't because you're making the distinction between justified and unjustified breaks, which ends up being essentially the same thing. Bends aren't any better than your "justified breaks".
    Not really. I merely ask you to justify it. The flavor would need on point, which I didn't find in either Bring Back or Bring From Beyond. And again, this is subjective.

    For flavor reasons, White draw would need to be "fair" - e.g. symmetric permissive draw would fit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    How? Explain where on the card it points towards it being sailors.

    What are the references? Please state them. I can only see "turning people into pigs".
    For example, Curse of the Swine represents a specific story from Homer's Odyssey, when the sorceress Circe transforms Odysseus's sailors into pigs.
    https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...ale-2013-09-02

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    The point is they didn't just change it, it fits in red.
    Lots of things fit white draw better than some form of implusive draw or some form of graveyard recursion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Because you think Magic would be better without it.
    Where did I say that? I said I played with a radically different version of Magic the Gathering. One with mana, just without Basic Lands. It had non-basic lands, and each card could become a land of specific color. Basically it was Magic, without Mana Screw. And it was good.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    It wasn't put in black then though. It was in black the entire time, it just wasn't always getting printed. It's tertiary, that doesn't need to be something you get often.
    Perhaps. But it didn't appear on mono black in long, time, was made a part of Color Pie and few months later it appeared. I don't care about this point it may or may not have moved.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Flavor doesn't matter if it undermines the color pie.
    Did you read the core/mantle/etc. article you linked?
    #6) The Overall Flavor Matters

    The final thing to think about when looking at a bleed, is to step back and look at the card in its entirety. The poster child of this lesson is the card Form of the Dragon. When looked in isolation, many of these abilities feel very out of flavor for red. But when you pull back and get an overall sense of the card—the player-as-planeswalker turning into a dragon—you start to get a flavor that very much feels at home in red.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Psionic Blast has blue flavor, but it's very much not a blue card.
    Yeah, but it's flavor is not much different from holding a really hot spear and chugging it at an opponent. Dragon form OTOH, has a lot of red flavor. Admittedly it also has a lot of blue flavor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    And my effect is widely used?
    There is so much impulse draw, your version is going to be classified as "impulse draw with extra steps". Also your point about having to wait, is not much different than playing Light Up The Stage. I've seen in played in similar ways.

    The other is something that appears rarely and never so far on white. Plus, it appeared very recently on Muldrotha. You can't really expect people to forget about that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    You can't expect me to have clear definitions when R&D don't have them.
    If your definitions aren't clear what's there to discuss. I say nay, you say yay, so I guess we might call it quits?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    I'm not going to reply to the next until you explain how this isn't just a blatant troll, or an insane conspiracy theory.
    How can the lead designer ALWAYS be wrong?
    You know my definition of color break. According to that, classifying something as a bend is irrelevant, just how well can a card justify itself.

    Want a shore up mono-white draw lack in commander? Make a commander.

    Orlov, Chief Inquisitor - 1WWW
    Legendary Creature - Human Cleric
    Whenever you sacrifice an artifact, create a 1/1 white Human creature token.
    Whenever you cast a creature spell with converted mana cost 3 or less, investigate.
    3/4
    Last edited by -D-; 2020-03-20 at 06:39 AM.

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    Default Re: MTG Share your Card Designs II

    Quote Originally Posted by -D- View Post
    Want a shore up mono-white draw lack in commander? Make a commander.

    Orlov, Chief Inquisitor - 1WWW
    Legendary Creature - Human Cleric
    Whenever you sacrifice an artifact, create a 1/1 white Human creature token.
    Whenever you cast a creature spell with converted mana cost 3 or less, investigate.
    3/4
    Wow now THAT'S clever! O_O

    Hummm... Ok, I know Im bad at this and I know it's not my place to adjust something like this but... What would you think of this instead:

    Orlov, Chief Inquisitor - 1WWW
    Legendary Creature - Human Cleric
    Pay 5 life: Create a 1/1 spirit flying creature token.
    Each time a creature token you control attacks to your opponents, investigate.
    3/4

    While I liked your creation just now but I like the FEEL of this above. Use your life to create Spirit tokens and make then attack to get clues.
    Last edited by Emmerlaus; 2020-03-17 at 02:03 PM.

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    Default Re: MTG Share your Card Designs II

    Quote Originally Posted by -D- View Post
    Want a shore up mono-white draw lack in commander? Make a commander.

    Orlov, Chief Inquisitor - 1WWW
    Legendary Creature - Human Cleric
    Whenever you sacrifice an artifact, create a 1/1 white Human creature token.
    Whenever you cast a creature spell with converted mana cost 3 or less, investigate.
    3/4
    I'm glad you removed the Emminence, that was too much. As it is now it's quite nice.
    I'm not quite sold on the flavor that a chief inquisitor draws cards of sacrificing any artifact, but that's my only complaint.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emmerlaus View Post
    Wow now THAT'S clever! O_O

    Hummm... Ok, I know Im bad at this and I know it's not my place to adjust something like this but... What would you think of this instead:

    Orlov, Chief Inquisitor - 1WWW
    Legendary Creature - Human Cleric
    Pay 5 life: Create a 1/1 spirit flying creature token.
    Each time a creature token you control attacks to your opponents, investigate.
    3/4

    While I liked your creation just now but I like the FEEL of this above. Use your life to create Spirit tokens and make then attack to get clues.
    Thank you.

    Your card is pretty nice. Few quibbles.
    Templating should be "Whenever a token creature you control", since the ability is triggered.
    Second quibble is that attacking token is much easier than nontoken. Especially, since this can generate it's own token. In commander, you could generate a bunch of these (40 life limit) and attack and whatever.
    Third is that so far, only Vampires could pay life for effect, at least in Pioneer (in Modern there is the Planar Chaos' Crovax, Planar Chaos is the edition they decided to break everything for ****s and giggles). It's a minor one, but good to keep in mind.
    Look at this search:
    https://scryfall.com/search?q=o%3Apa...order=released

    Only ones that pay life for effect is Adanto Vanguard and Glorifier of Dusk.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    I'm glad you removed the Emminence, that was too much. As it is now it's quite nice.
    I'm not quite sold on the flavor that a chief inquisitor draws cards of sacrificing any artifact, but that's my only complaint.
    Yeah, went through few iteration with Discord, they thought the Eminence was bad. I'm not a commander player, I thought it was decent.

    Eh, it's more of a demonstration. But in flavor would be he gets other humans to investigate for him (nontokens), and the more artifact the purges, the more followers (tokens) he gets.
    I didn't count enemy artifacts, because I didn't want to make this an anti-artifact deck.

    Bah. Had a fun idea about Planeswalker Auras
    Last edited by -D-; 2020-03-20 at 06:41 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by -D- View Post
    Yeah, went through few iteration with Discord, they thought the Eminence was bad. I'm not a commander player, I thought it was decent.
    I saw. I agree emminence is a bad mechanic, and stapling card advantage on it is extremely worrying.

    Eh, it's more of a demonstration. But in flavor would be he gets other humans to investigate for him (nontokens), and the more artifacts he "purges", the more followers (tokens) he gets.
    I didn't count enemy artifacts.
    I don't get the flavor that he purges artifacts if they're your artifacts. If it only triggered from clues it would work with the flavor that whenever he made progress he would gain more followers.

    Bah. Had a fun idea about Planeswalker Auras
    This could be cheaper or have a wider usage. Targeting only planeswalkers I feel like it would be fine at W.
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    Default Re: MTG Share your Card Designs II

    Quote Originally Posted by -D- View Post
    Thank you.

    Your card is pretty nice. Few quibbles.
    Templating should be "Whenever a token creature you control", since the ability is triggered.
    Second quibble is that attacking token is much easier than nontoken. Especially, since this can generate it's own token. In commander, you could generate a bunch of these (40 life limit) and attack and whatever.
    Third is that so far, only Vampires could pay life for effect, at least in Pioneer (in Modern there is the Planar Chaos' Crovax). It's a minor one, but good to keep in mind.
    Look at this search:
    https://scryfall.com/search?q=o%3Apa...order=released

    Only ones that pay life for effect is Adanto Vanguard and Glorifier of Dusk.
    So it's a tiny bit strong huh? What about this then:

    Orlov, Chief Inquisitor - 1WWW
    Legendary Creature - Vampire Cleric
    Pay 5 life: Create a 1/1 spirit flying creature token for each cards in your hand. Use this ability only once per turn.
    Whenever a creature token you control deal damage to your opponents, investigate.
    3/4

    I know my wording is bad, how should I deal with this?

    Made it a Vampire at your suggestion...

    Is it less strong to make it that they need to hit your opponent but also, that it can summon more then one spirit at a time?

    Also written in a way that it needs to damage your opponent now, to make it less OP

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    Default Re: MTG Share your Card Designs II

    Quote Originally Posted by Emmerlaus View Post
    So it's a tiny bit strong huh? What about this then:

    Orlov, Chief Inquisitor - 1WWW
    Legendary Creature - Vampire Cleric
    Pay 5 life: Create a 1/1 spirit flying creature token for each cards in your hand. Use this ability only once per turn.
    Whenever a creature token you control deal damage to your opponents, investigate.
    3/4
    How is this worse?
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    Default Re: MTG Share your Card Designs II

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    How is this worse?
    Mono-white already has problem with card draw. And it can only be used once per turn so if people attack you, you'll need to use it right away to block.

    If you attack with your tokens, you cant use them to block.

    In mono-white, I dont feel its unbalanced. The fact that the tokens need to deal damage to investigate mean you need to go against the one who doesnt have flier or the one with no creature to block... or simply go with huge number of tokens. So the commander would be ineffective if the number of tokens isnt huge.

    Tokens are sensitive to boardwipe strategy too.

    I dont feel like, in mono-white, that its broken compared to I dont know, Korvold, Fae-Cursed King. DOnt forget it needs 3 white mana to cast, which is very taxing if you try to put in in a Commander deck but without the creature being your commander.
    Last edited by Emmerlaus; 2020-03-18 at 09:02 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Emmerlaus View Post
    Mono-white already has problem with card draw. And it can only be used once per turn so if people attack you, you'll need to use it right away to block.
    You don't need to be mono white to play this, and it's not difficult to play with with four cards in hand, then activate it on your turn, then once on the opponent's turn, and then swing for 11.

    If you attack with your tokens, you cant use them to block.
    You can attack with your tokens and then make new ones that are summoning sick to block. And then more during the opponent's turn.

    In mono-white, I dont feel its unbalanced.
    It's extremely unbalanced, in every color. This can create a very large amount of tokens very easily.

    The fact that the tokens need to deal damage to investigate mean you need to go against the one who doesnt have flier or the one with no creature to block... or simply go with huge number of tokens. So the commander would be ineffective if the number of tokens isnt huge.
    This swings for a ton and then gives you a ton of tokens to restock your hand and make even more tokens. How is that fair?

    Tokens are sensitive to boardwipe strategy too.
    Everything is sensitive to boardwipes, that's not an argument.

    I dont feel like, in mono-white, that its broken compared to I dont know, Korvold, Fae-Cursed King.
    It's very broken compared to Korvold. Korvold doesn't allow you to create a huge amount of tokens for life, the easiest resource to pay.

    DOnt forget it needs 3 white mana to cast, which is very taxing if you try to put in in a Commander deck but without the creature being your commander.
    That does not make this card fair.
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    Default Re: MTG Share your Card Designs II

    Then the original below is more balanced? OR should we change something to it?

    Orlov, Chief Inquisitor - 1WWW
    Legendary Creature - Vampire Cleric
    Pay 5 life: Create a 1/1 flying spirit creature token.
    Each time a creature token you control attacks to your opponents, investigate.
    3/4

    Would it be more balanced to make it, I dont know, a 2/3? Is paying 5 life too much or should it be 3?
    Last edited by Emmerlaus; 2020-03-18 at 11:56 AM.

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    Default Re: MTG Share your Card Designs II

    Why are you paying life to make your token in the first place? It doesn't feel very white, and it's hard to balance.
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    Default Re: MTG Share your Card Designs II

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Why are you paying life to make your token in the first place? It doesn't feel very white, and it's hard to balance.
    Well mono-white need to do something different to become competitive against other color. I thought it was about that, making a Commander that stayed close to what likes to do and yet increasing their potential.

    Also, vampires does use "pay life" as a mecanic for effects and their IS mono-white vampires.

    Sigh well what about this:

    Orlov, the Inquisitor - 1WWW
    Legendary Creature - Vampire Cleric
    When Orlov, Chief Inquisitor enter the battlefield, create a 1/1 white spirit token creature with flying for each creature in your graveyard.
    Each time a token creature you control deal damage to your opponents, investigate
    2/3

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