What Are you Playing 7: Deadly Sims

[LibraryOgre]

I miss Star Wars: Uprising. At this point, there may be some nostalgia glasses on, but I really liked that game.

[Zevox]

Dragon's Dogma was the first game built on the newest (at the time) version of MT Framework, Capcom's then-modern game engine. It was their first crack at making an open world game of this variety (technically Lost Planet predates it but it's a very different style of game) and if you go back and forth playing DD and MHW you'll be able to see the similarities in how the game handles...everything, basically.

Alongside graphical similarities, character animations in particular are shared between DD and MHW; everything involving traversal is basically identical, and some of the weapon animations are shared as well.

A quick bit of the Wikipedia entry on the subject:



MHW was in development for a WHILE, and was meant to revolutionize the series by making it a full-sized PC game instead of "just" a mobile title.

Interesting, but all of that seems to just amount to "Dragon's Dogma happened to use the same engine as Monster Hunter World, so it took advantage of the work that had already been done on it before." Which is quite a bit different from "The game is quite literally only 60% complete and was made as a rushed tech demo for Monster Hunter World in the first place."

Also, according to Wikipedia as well, development of Monster Hunter World only started three years before it was announced, and after a year of brainstorming following the release of its predecessor (Monster Hunter 4), which would mean 2014. Dragon's Dogma released in 2012.

[Rynjin]

Interesting, but all of that seems to just amount to "Dragon's Dogma happened to use the same engine as Monster Hunter World, so it took advantage of the work that had already been done on it before." Which is quite a bit different from "The game is quite literally only 60% complete and was made as a rushed tech demo for Monster Hunter World in the first place."

Also, according to Wikipedia as well, development of Monster Hunter World only started three years before it was announced, and after a year of brainstorming following the release of its predecessor (Monster Hunter 4), which would mean 2014. Dragon's Dogma released in 2012.

Well if you want a quote on the "60% complete" thing, there are a few. [url=https://www.polygon.com/2013/3/28/4157444/dragons-dogma-was-originally-twice-its-current-size#:~:text=By%20finding%20an%20appropriate%20sol ution,process%20that%20he%20learned%20from.]Polygon], Design docs, etc.

[Zevox]

Well if you want a quote on the "60% complete" thing, there are a few. [url=https://www.polygon.com/2013/3/28/4157444/dragons-dogma-was-originally-twice-its-current-size#:~:text=By%20finding%20an%20appropriate%20sol ution,process%20that%20he%20learned%20from.]Polygon], Design docs, etc.

No, that part's not the hang-up - games needing to cut content during development due to budget or time is entirely normal. It's the "rushed tech demo for a game that wasn't even in development until years later" part that makes me go "wait, that doesn't seem right."

[Triaxx]

For Mega Man X, only played the first game so far, and uh, wow, is it frustrating. It feels like, outside of boss fights, this game does not care about your health bar, it just wants to put you into situations where if you screw up, you're instantly dead. So much so that I actually went and looked up whether it had originally been an arcade game, because it being designed to munch quarters would make a lot of sense, but no, it was always a console game. I guess Capcom's devs just had that arcade design mindset at the time. Probably the most egregious that I've seen is the last part of Armored Armadillo's stage, where you ride a careening mine cart which is, at the end of the track, launched across a massive pit, but if you don't jump off it at the right time, it'll bounce off the wall at the other end, and you'll be screwed because any attempt to jump after that point will keep your momentum away from that side of the pit. So unless you know it's coming, you will die there at least once, guaranteed, and most likely more times until you figure out the right timing to jump at. And don't even get me started on some segments of the first Sigma stage, which is where I'm currently stuck...

Have you been looking around for your upgrades?

[Rynjin]

No, that part's not the hang-up - games needing to cut content during development due to budget or time is entirely normal. It's the "rushed tech demo for a game that wasn't even in development until years later" part that makes me go "wait, that doesn't seem right."

I dunno what more you want. "A tech demo for MT Framework 1.Whatever" is technically more accurate, but there were only two major games built on that engine after DD, and one of them didn't make use of any of the assets DD created, while World did.

[Zevox]

Have you been looking around for your upgrades?

You mean the armor pieces? Yes, I've got all of those. There's probably some health ups that I've missed, and I believe two sub tanks, but as I said, issue is less health and more "mess up here and die immediately" parts. And the sub tanks not carrying over between stages means they're never particularly full anyway.

I dunno what more you want. "A tech demo for MT Framework 1.Whatever" is technically more accurate, but there were only two major games built on that engine after DD, and one of them didn't make use of any of the assets DD created, while World did.

"The newer game took advantage of work an older game did on the same engine" =/= "the older game was a tech demo for the newer game." That's the hang-up. Dragon's Dogma was made because Itsuno wanted to make it, and Capcom gave him the go-ahead, not as a test-bed for another game that wasn't even on anyone's mind yet at the time.

Also, the "rushed" part. Dragon's Dogma was in development for four years (2008-2012), so that also doesn't add up.

[Rynjin]

Also, the "rushed" part. Dragon's Dogma was in development for four years (2008-2012), so that also doesn't add up.

IIRC they were in planning and project development for about 3 years but never actually broke ground on making the game until 2011 or late 2010.

Making an open world game is complicated, especially when a lot of work needs to be put into updating the engine to be able to handle stuff like the day/night cycle, weather, etc. before you ever even really start work on the stuff people would consider the GAME.

The development of DD was an absolute mess, and that lack of polish and unfinished nature (primarily in the realm of quests; the biggest cuts were to the main story and questing in general) is why it flopped.

[Zevox]

IIRC they were in planning and project development for about 3 years but never actually broke ground on making the game until 2011 or late 2010.

Making an open world game is complicated, especially when a lot of work needs to be put into updating the engine to be able to handle stuff like the day/night cycle, weather, etc. before you ever even really start work on the stuff people would consider the GAME.

The development of DD was an absolute mess, and that lack of polish and unfinished nature (primarily in the realm of quests; the biggest cuts were to the main story and questing in general) is why it flopped.

Okay, I obviously don't know the details of what they were doing when during development, but that last is just factually incorrect. The game didn't flop, it sold 1.5 million copies in its first month, and was considered a big success by Capcom.

[Rynjin]

Okay, I obviously don't know the details of what they were doing when during development, but that last is just factually incorrect. The game didn't flop, it sold 1.5 million copies in its first month, and was considered a big success by Capcom.

That's because Capcom is a Japanese company, so they only care about sales in Japan. It did not sell very well outside of Japan, and that's a big part of why we didn't get Dragon's Dogma Online over here.

[Zevox]

That's because Capcom is a Japanese company, so they only care about sales in Japan. It did not sell very well outside of Japan, and that's a big part of why we didn't get Dragon's Dogma Online over here.

The game was aiming for at least 1 million sales when it was pitched per Wikipedia, and it exceeded that handily. Regardless of where those sales came from, that's a success.

[Rynjin]

The game was aiming for at least 1 million sales when it was pitched per Wikipedia, and it exceeded that handily. Regardless of where those sales came from, that's a success.

It is indeed pretty successful for an unfinished tech demo. =p

[Zevox]

It is indeed pretty successful for an unfinished tech demo. =p

Fine, keep redefining words to your own liking, rather than admit you were mistaken about something. 'Tis the way of the internet, I suppose.

[Triaxx]

Then I'll let you in on a secret to that problematic jump. You need to jump OVER the door and go up once you're fully upgraded.

[Zevox]

Then I'll let you in on a secret to that problematic jump. You need to jump OVER the door and go up once you're fully upgraded.

You mean the one I mentioned from Armored Armadillo's stage? I'm past that at this point, it was just the clearest, most egregious example of the game's tendency to put you in situations where you'll probably die instantly. I'm currently working my way through the Sigma stages. I did beat the first one earlier, but I need to take breaks in between, because they are frustrating.

Ah, after some googling, I see what you're getting at. Neat secret, but tracking down the other health upgrades and sub-tanks to get it is more than I'd care to do.

[Aragehaor]

IIRC they were in planning and project development for about 3 years but never actually broke ground on making the game until 2011 or late 2010.

This is an interesting claim you make here, Unfortunately i have been unable to verify the veracity of it through any search, Could you elaborate or provide a source? As far as i can tell, the game received 3* years of actual development, with a fourth year in the conceptual phase (presumably the period in which the game was cut down considerably) Thus making the game starting development potentially as early as 2009(i haven't been able to find anything to suggest it started in "late" 2010) Source

The development of DD was an absolute mess, and that lack of polish and unfinished nature (primarily in the realm of quests; the biggest cuts were to the main story and questing in general) is why it flopped.

Of the considerable changes made for the game for its final commercialization, i actually cant find any information that suggests the story or questing was cut at all, beyond the obvious changes that would have needed to be made considering the original design: "The initial map design was approximately twice the size of the final product, with separate regions corresponding to different levels of experience, up to level 100; separate and discrete parallel worlds existed for each player." (Famitsu article, in Japanese, so run it through google translate if necessary)
To this end, i would argue that singling out any 'one' thing that was cut is more or less impossible, the game was changed considerably enough from its initial vision that focusing on any one change feels disingenuous.

That's because Capcom is a Japanese company, so they only care about sales in Japan. It did not sell very well outside of Japan, and that's a big part of why we didn't get Dragon's Dogma Online over here.

While this statement is more or less accurate, it is worth noting that as of december of 22, Dragon's Dogma (and Dark Arisen) has sold 7.2 Million units which, while not as successful as other grander successes (such as MH) still appears to be comparable to other series that Capcom has produced (With the obvious exception of series with more entries in their series or massively popular games such as MH or resident evil)

It is indeed pretty successful for an unfinished tech demo. =p

In regards to these 'tech demo' claims, you will need to provide a source for this, at the very least, as the idea for the game, and the Pawn System existed since the year 2000(mentioned in the above Famitsu article, though there are numerous other sources)

Additionally, during a press conference in 2011: "he called it a game he had been dreaming of making since his school days, which could be finally realized due to technological advancements" - to me, this doesn't sound like the language a developer would use for a game they churned out without any care or thought. (Wikipedia, or the first linked article for source)


*The article was published in april 2011, and the game released in 2012, so thats a minimum of three years actual dev time if they had already developed the game for two years.

[Rynjin]

Without care or thought? Absolutely not. I think, in fact, a bit TOO much care and thought was put into it. That's kind of the issue. It was way too ambitious and they were basically building the tech to make the game happen alongside the game itself. That's never a great position to be in for development.

[Aragehaor]

Without care or thought? Absolutely not. I think, in fact, a bit TOO much care and thought was put into it. That's kind of the issue. It was way too ambitious and they were basically building the tech to make the game happen alongside the game itself. That's never a great position to be in for development.

A fair enough position, though i would reiterate that i personally think calling the game a 'tech demo' is rather insulting, when it appears to be more clearly a passion product (Which as you imply, often run into their own issues, in this case, the technology required for the project itself.)

I do agree that the game does have numerous problems, to clarify, just that i don't think (according to the information i have been able to find) calling it a commercial flop or a tech demo (for MH or anything else) to be fair or accurate.

[Bohandas]

Currently I'm alternating between Shadows Over Loathing and the premium version of Dwarf Fortress

Shadows Over Loathing is about as good as its predecessor, but, while not by any means absent, it does less spoofing of lovecraftian horror than its name implies

The new version of Dwarf Fortress is very good and I've gotten further in it than I have in any of the old versions

[NRSASD]

Ah man, Shadows over Loathing is fantastic. While it doesn't play as much with the lovecraft theme as one might hope, it's still a very funny game. The ending is also very lovecraft, so it kinda comes full circle.

[warty goblin]

Finished grinding out another two lines in World of Warships. Because I'm perverse, I picked the red headed stepchildren of digital warships to waste my time on.

First up was Italian destroyers. Being Italian ships, they have the standard Italian gimmicks, a short duration smoke screen that can conceal you when moving at full speed, and semi armor piercing ammo (SAP). SAP is basically the ideal ammo type, since it has good pen, the alpha damage of armor piercing, and the reliability of high explosive. Italian DDs are actually pretty potent at low tiers, where they can SAP smack enemy DDs like nobody's business, then smoke screen themselves when things get too hot. But at higher tier the ubiquity of radar and hydro makes smoke much less valuable, and because the Italian tech tree can't have nice things, the SAP DPM falls drastically behind the more insane gunboats our there. Everything from T7 up was difficult, the T8 nearly broke me, and the T10 was in no way worth the misery of the T9.

So I paused that grind to grind out the Japanese light cruisers, an almost entirely fictitious line of deeply weird ships completely contrary to Japanese doctrine - which called for heavy cruisers to the point that their last actual light cruisers* were built to swap out their triple six inch turrets for twin eights. In game these violently ahistorical ships are characterized by having no armor, quite good torpedoes, and lots of slow loading guns. Basically you get heavy cruiser reloads on a ship with 12 or 15 or 18 six inch rifles. Which also makes these ships ugly as hell. Also ahistorically for pretty much any Japanese ship, they have decent AA.

That said, they are reasonably comfortable to play, so long as you are used to the semi-suicidal style of playing heavy cruisers in open water. They're not great but they work pretty well.

Next up, I think French destroyers. These actually don't suck!




*to the confusion of years of sci fi writers, the historical, legal definition of heavy vs light cruiser has nothing to do with weight or armor, only gun caliber. If it's 6 inches or less, light cruiser, six to eight, it's a heavy.

[IthilanorStPete]

Also ahistorically for pretty much any Japanese ship, they have decent AA.

I've only read a bit on the IJN (primarily Shattered Sword, focusing on Midway), but that does seem absurd even by World of Warships standards.

*to the confusion of years of sci fi writers, the historical, legal definition of heavy vs light cruiser has nothing to do with weight or armor, only gun caliber. If it's 6 inches or less, light cruiser, six to eight, it's a heavy.

Is that a Washington/London Naval Treaty definition?

[warty goblin]

I've only read a bit on the IJN (primarily Shattered Sword, focusing on Midway), but that does seem absurd even by World of Warships standards.

It is pretty ridiculous, but it is also very satisfying. Particularly early on, when people just assumed it was bad AA because it was Japanese. And then you'd melt an attacking flight out of the sky.

Is that a Washington/London Naval Treaty definition?

It is, but it mostly aligns with previous usage. Prior to Dreadnought and Invincible, cruisers were split into protected cruisers, which had an armored deck protecting their engines, and armored cruisers, which were generally bigger, had bigger guns, but were called armored because they supplemented the armored deck with an armored belt.

Then the dreadnought revolution confused everything by rendering every armored cruiser obsolete overnight, and you started to see the split into more modern light and heavy cruisers. But honestly I don't have a great understanding of cruiser design and development between 1906 and 1920.

The Washington and London naval treaties made this concrete by legally defining the terms. Light cruisers were anything bigger than a destroyer, with a standard displacement up to 10,000 tons, and guns no bigger than 6 inches. Heavy cruisers had the same displacement limit, but guns between six and eight inches. This generally left heavy cruisers in a weird spot, since to have good speed and a decent number of guns, they didn't typically have enough armor to actually resist eight inch guns.

Then you have oddities like the Deutchland pocket battleships, which weren't restricted by the Washington/London naval treaties, so got to have 11 inch guns. These later got grandfathered in to the treaties as heavy cruisers, but are really just their own weird thing. The Alaska class with its 12 inch guns mostly just exists so people can argue about whether it counts as a battlecruiser.

[LibraryOgre]

Please do not post classified information to win this discussion. Please please please.

[Zevox]

Please do not post classified information to win this discussion. Please please please.

No no, that's the tank enthusiasts. Warship enthusiasts are a much calmer, more law-abiding lot. They only post classified information if someone triple-dog dares them first.

Anyways, my own gaming. I think I'm going to drop re-playing Dragon's Dogma for now, honestly. The core combat's still good, but everything else about the game has been bugging me too much. And now that I'm starting to get past the very earliest areas, well, the first big monsters I'm fighting, the Ogres, seem like absolute damage sponges that are taking me forever to kill. I don't know if that's because I'm playing a Fighter or what, but it sure does make things a lot less fun.

On the Mega Man front, I've actually given up on finishing X1. The fact that the game forces you to do all of the Sigma stages in one sitting is a deal-breaker - that first stage in particular is super frustrating, so I really want to be able to take a break after it, but whenever I reload the file, it's back to stage 1. I did get to Sigma himself once, but obviously lost, and I really don't want to go through all of the stages before him again just to give it another go.

So, on to X2, which I've only finished three bosses on, but already feels better. Unlike the first X game this does not feel like it's constantly trying to put me in unreasonable instant-death traps. There's the occasional moderately challenging platforming section with instant-death spikes or a pit of course, but that's just normal Mega Man stuff, that I can handle. Also, having Dash from the outset meaning that I don't need to look up the order is certainly nice by comparison to X1 as well. So far I've successfully figured out two boss' weaknesses after killing my first, though I've had a couple that I got to only to find I was wrong in guessing they may be weak to my new move as well. I will say though, not the most inspired set of boss designs in the series, to be sure. I mean, "Crystal Snail," really?

I also tried to get back into playing Guilty Gear Strive online today, and it kind of seems like I can't. I'd heard that when the game launched on X-Box and with crossplay earlier this month that it had caused an increase in the connection issues it has, but oh boy, I was not expecting it to be so bad that I basically can't even get a match started. After multiple attempts at different times of day, I got into one game, which then disconnected halfway through - admittedly, that could have been a rage-quit, but with the other issues, I wouldn't be surprised at all if it wasn't. They really need to get that fixed.

[Rynjin]

No no, that's the tank enthusiasts. Warship enthusiasts are a much calmer, more law-abiding lot. They only post classified information if someone triple-dog dares them first.

Anyways, my own gaming. I think I'm going to drop re-playing Dragon's Dogma for now, honestly. The core combat's still good, but everything else about the game has been bugging me too much. And now that I'm starting to get past the very earliest areas, well, the first big monsters I'm fighting, the Ogres, seem like absolute damage sponges that are taking me forever to kill. I don't know if that's because I'm playing a Fighter or what, but it sure does make things a lot less fun.

It is; once you put a couple of levels into Assassin your damage will skyrocket. Upgrading your gear helps too.

[Psyren]

Anyone else trying the Diablo 4 open beta?

[Rynjin]

I tried Rogue first and was not feelin' it at all. Game kinda feels like Dragon Age: Inquisition. Good "gamefeel" but like zero depth. Skill selection is small and most feel pretty samey; I especially hate the bits of the skill tree that are just "gain an itty bitty % bonus to this facet of the skill".

[Mx.Silver]

Anyways, my own gaming. I think I'm going to drop re-playing Dragon's Dogma for now, honestly. The core combat's still good, but everything else about the game has been bugging me too much. And now that I'm starting to get past the very earliest areas, well, the first big monsters I'm fighting, the Ogres, seem like absolute damage sponges that are taking me forever to kill. I don't know if that's because I'm playing a Fighter or what, but it sure does make things a lot less fun.

Ogres get buffs to their attack and defence if they're fighting women¹, so if you have female characters in your active party that might be making things a little harder. They're pretty tough early in the game regardless, unless you can get them on the ground (climbing their backs to bait out a backdrop will work, but you need to time it well to avaoid getting hit). Or unless you can bait their charge attacks to set up a gravity kill, of course (the ogre in the everfall can also be avoided if you take the long route around, iirc).


¹except for elder ogres in Bitterblack Isle, which get buffs against men.

[warty goblin]

No no, that's the tank enthusiasts. Warship enthusiasts are a much calmer, more law-abiding lot. They only post classified information if someone triple-dog dares them first.

To be fair, it's a lot harder to post classified stuff when the subject matter is either a) fictitious, b) sunk, c) scrapped or d) a literal museum.

Otherwise, given the occasional article length screed on realism posted in the official forums, somebody would have spoiled the beans by now!