Base Prestige classes (Dragon Disciple)

[Jormengand]

Yet more base prestige classes? Of course!

This one has a lot more stuff added, to make up for the fact that, for some reason, Dragon Disciples don't get conventional spellcasting boosts but do require that you have some. So, what do DDs actually get? Stat boosts and natural attacks. Come on guys, let's beat the monk at his job. Let's break the first rule of unarmed combat (see my sig. )

The Dragon Disciple

Level	BAB	Fort	Ref	Will	Special
1st	+0	+2	+0	+2	Natural Armour Increase (+1), Claws and Bite
2nd	+1	+3	+0	+3	Ability Boost (Str +2), Natural Expert
3rd	+2	+3	+1	+3	Breath Weapon 2D8 1/day, Trip Kick
4th	+3	+4	+1	+4	Ability Boost (Con +2), Natural Armour Increase (+2)
5th	+3	+4	+1	+4	Greater Claws and Bite, Never Let Go
6th	+4	+5	+2	+5	Ability Boost (Str +2)
7th	+5	+5	+2	+5	Breath Weapon 4D8 2/day, Ability Boost (Int +2), Natural Armour Increase (+3), Rending Attack
8th	+6/+1	+6	+2	+6	Ability Boost (Con +2)
9th	+6/+1	+6	+3	+6	Ability Boost (Cha +2), Storm of Claws
10th	+7/+2	+7	+3	+7	Half-Dragon Apotheosis, Blindsense 30ft, Ability Boost (Str +2), Natural Armour Increase (+4)
11th	+8/+3	+7	+3	+7	Breath Weapon 6D8 3/day, Greater Claws and Bite, Ability Boost (Dex +2)
12th	+9/+4	+8	+4	+8	Wings 30ft, Ability Boost (Con +2)
13th	+9/+4	+8	+4	+8	Ability Boost (Int +2), Natural Armour Increase (+5), Piercing Strike
14th	+10/+5	+9	+4	+9	Ability Boost (Str +2), Dragon's Tail
15th	+11/+6/+1	+9	+5	+9	Blindsense 45ft, Breath Weapon 8D8 4/day, Ability Boost (Cha +2) Claw of Dispulsion
16th	+12/+7/+2	+10	+5	+10	Wings 45ft, Ability Boost (Con +2), Natural Armour Increase (+6)
17th	+12/+7/+2	+10	+5	+10	Greater Claws and Bite
18th	+13/+8/+3	+11	+6	+11	Ability Boost (Str +2)
19th	+14/+9/+4	+11	+6	+11	Breath Weapon 10D8 5/day, Ability Boost (Wis +2), Natural Armour Increase (+7)
20th	+15/+10/+5	+12	+6	+12	Wings 60ft, Blindsense 60ft, Dragon Apotheosis, Ability Boost (Con +2)

Alignment: Any
Hit Die: 1d12
Special: Dragons, including half-dragons, cannot be dragon disciples. However, the Half-Dragon template and dragon form granted by the class are exceptions, and do not disqualify the dragon disciple from further levels in the class.
Special: The player chooses a dragon variety when taking the first level in this class.

Class Skills:
The dragon disciple’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Speak Language (None), Spellcraft (Int), and Spot (Wis).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) × 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier

Weapon and armour proficiency
The dragon disciple gains no proficiency in any weapons or armour, though he is proficient with his own natural weapons and unarmed strikes.

Natural Armor Increase (Ex)
At 1st level, and every third level thereafter a dragon disciple gains an increase to the character’s existing natural armor (if any), as indicated on Table: The Dragon Disciple (the numbers represent the total increase gained to that point). As his skin thickens, a dragon disciple takes on more and more of his progenitor’s physical aspect.

Claws and Bite (Ex)
At first level, a dragon disciple gains claw and bite attacks if he does not already have them. Use the values below or the disciple’s base claw and bite damage values, whichever are greater.

At first level, a medium dragon disciple's bite attack does 1d6 damage while his claws do 1d4. Adjust these values for different sizes of Dragon Disciple as necessary.

Size	Bite	Claw/Tail	Wing
Fine	1	-	-
Diminutive	1d2	1	-
Tiny	1d3	1d2	1
Small	1d4	1d3	1d2
Medium	1d6	1d4	1d3
Large	1d8	1d6	1d4
Huge	2d6	1d8	1d6
Gargantuan	3d6	2d6	1d8
Colossal	4d6	3d6	2d6

A dragon disciple is considered proficient with these attacks, and considers all these attacks to be primary natural attacks. When making a full attack, a dragon disciple uses his full base attack bonus with all his attacks

Natural Expert (Ex)
From second level, the Dragon Disciple gains the multiattack and improved multiattack feats as bonus feats.

He also benefits from those of the two-weapon fighting, improved two-weapon fighting, greater two-weapon fighting and perfect two-weapon fighting feats of which he meets the base attack bonus requirements, though as pertains to his natural weapons and unarmed strikes instead of manufactured weapons.

Ability Boost (Ex)
As a dragon disciple gains levels in this class, his ability scores increase as noted on Table: The Dragon Disciple.

These increases stack and are gained as if through level advancement.

Trip Kick (Ex)
From third level, the dragon disciple may make a trip kick attack when he attacks, or up to two such attacks as part of a full attack action. Each is made in lieu of a normal claw attack and works in exactly the same way, save that if the trip kick hits, the dragon disciple may make a trip attempt as a free action, need not make an extra touch attack, and is considered to have the improved trip feat for this purpose.

Breath Weapon (Su)
At 3rd level, a dragon disciple gains a minor breath weapon. The type and shape depend on the dragon variety whose heritage he enjoys (see below). Regardless of the ancestor, the breath weapon deals 2d8 points of damage of the appropriate energy type.

While it can only be used once per day at third level, it can be used once more every four levels thereafter, also dealing 2d8 more damage. Use all the rules for dragon breath weapons except as specified here.

The DC of the breath weapon is 10 + class level + Con modifier.

A line-shaped breath weapon is 5 feet high, 5 feet wide, and 60 feet long. A cone-shaped breath weapon is 30 feet long.

Never Let Go (Ex)
At fifth level, the dragon disciple gains an ability similar to the Improved Grab ability of a lion. When the dragon disciple hits with a bite attack, he may choose to make a free grapple, is treated as though he had the improved grapple feat and need not make an extra touch attack. If he does so, he also has both his hands free to attack, or cast spells if he is capable of so doing, until such a time as the opponent controls the grapple, or the dragon disciple chooses to pin his opponent.

Greater Claws and Bite (Ex)
At fifth level, and every sixth level thereafter, the Dragon Disciple's claws and bite deal damage as though they were one size larger, even if they were not directly caused from the class.

Rending Attack (Ex)
From seventh level, when the dragon disciple hits with a natural attack, he causes the creature hit to acquire a rend point. Each subsequent attack against them, whether by the Dragon Disciple or not, causes the creature to take another point of damage. Rend points and the damage they deal stack.

Anything which would heal normal damage first heals rend points instead.

Wings (Ex)
At 9th level, a dragon disciple grows a set of draconic wings. He may now fly at a speed equal to his normal land speed, with average maneuverability. He also gains two wing attacks, each dealing 1d3 damage for a medium creature. This improves each time his bite and claw attacks improve (so in reality, a medium dragon disciple will deal 1d4 damage with his wings).

At 16th level, the dragon disciple has a 45 ft fly speed and good maneuverability, and at 20th level, a 60 ft fly speed with perfect maneuverability.

Whatever his maneuverability, the dragon disciple may make dive attacks using any of his natural weapons he wishes.

Storm of Claws (Ex)
At ninth level, the dragon disciple gains the Pounce ability of a lion. When he charges, he can make a full attack in the same round.


Blindsense (Ex)
At 10th level, the dragon disciple gains blindsense with a range of 30 feet. Using nonvisual senses the dragon disciple notices things it cannot see. He usually does not need to make Spot or Listen checks to notice and pinpoint the location of creatures within range of his blindsense ability, provided that he has line of effect to that creature.

Any opponent the dragon disciple cannot see still has total concealment against him, and the dragon disciple still has the normal miss chance when attacking foes that have concealment. Visibility still affects the movement of a creature with blindsense. A creature with blindsense is still denied its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class against attacks from creatures it cannot see. At 15th level, the range of this ability increases to 45 and at 20th to 60 feet.

Half-Dragon Apotheosis
At 10th level, a dragon disciple takes on the half-dragon template pertaining to his dragon type. He acquires low-light vision, 60-foot darkvision, immunity to sleep and paralysis effects, and immunity to the energy type used by his breath weapon. Ignore the level adjustment provided by the template when determining his effective character level.

If, by some miracle, the Dragon Disciple already had the half-dragon template, he regains either the three hit dice, any experience he used to reduce the level adjustment of the template, or a combination of the above, as appropriate such that he has the correct number of experience points and subsequent level as though he had never taken such a template in the first place.

Piercing Strike (Ex)
From thirteenth level, all of the dragon disciple's natural attacks are considered magic weapons for the purposes of ignoring damage reduction. In addition, when the dragon disciple attacks with a bite attack, once per round he may make a free sunder attempt against a weapon, armour or shield only. When he makes a claw attack, once per round he may make a free disarm attempt. When he makes a wing attack, once per round he may make a free feint attempt. These attempts are made as free actions, need no separate attack rolls, and are made as though the dragon disciple had the improved sunder, improved disarm or improved feint feats respectively.

Dragon's Tail (Ex)
From fourteenth level, the dragon disciple gains a tail attack in addition to his other natural attacks. Nominally, the tail does 1d4 damage for a medium creature, but it improves in the same way as the claw and bite attacks, so deals at least 1d8 damage for a medium creature.

Claw of Dispulsion (Su)
Each round from fifteenth level, the dragon disciple may make a single claw of dispulsion attack, though despite the name it can be made as a claw, bite, wing, or tail attack. Whether or not the attack hits, the target is subject to a Dispel Magic spell, substituting the attack roll for a caster level check.

Claw of Disjunction (Su)
Once per day, the dragon disciple may make a special sunder attempt, either as part of a normal sunder attack or a piercing strike. If the special sunder attempt hits, the item targeted is destroyed utterly. If this is attempted in an antimagic field or null psionics field, it has a 1% chance per level to destroy it, otherwise it fails as and other supernatural ability might.

Similarly, it only has a 1% chance per level of affecting an artifact, and if it does the dragon disciple must take a DC 25 will save or be slain instantly, his body utterly destroyed - there is not even enough for resurrection to work, though true resurrection or wish followed by either resurrection or another wish would work. There is also a 95% chance of attracting a powerful being with an interest in, or connection to, such a device, if any.

Dragon Apotheosis (Special)
At 20th level, the dragon disciple becomes a true dragon, though he is also capable of assuming his humanoid form. The true dragon form loses the half-dragon template given from Half-Dragon Apotheosis, but instead becomes a dragon of three sizes larger than the dragon disciple, retaining all of its natural weapons and dealing increased natural weapon damage as normal (of course, this can easily cause the dragon disciple's weapons to deal damage as though they were a size category that doesn't exist. Use the table below to determine the damage done). The dragon has a fly speed of 240 feet, and its natural armour bonus to armour class increases by a further +16.

The dragon may use its breath weapon every 1d4 rounds instead of having a daily limit. The dragon has the same immunities as half-dragons. Finally, the dragon's ability scores increase as follows: Str +12 Con +8 Int +6 Cha +6.

However, due to the dragon's great size, it only has good maneuverability instead of perfect.

Size	Bite	Claw/Tail	Wing
Colossal	4d6	3d6	2d6
Enormous (+)	6d6	4d6	3d6
Immense (++)	8d6	6d6	4d6
Behemothic (+++)	10d6	8d6	6d6

[TheFamilarRaven]

So I see you went wit hposting your Dragon Disciple first .... very well, onwards to PEACHing!

Natural Armor Increase (Ex)
At 1st level, and every third level thereafter a dragon disciple gains an increase to the character’s existing natural armor (if any), as indicated on Table: The Dragon Disciple (the numbers represent the total increase gained to that point). As his skin thickens, a dragon disciple takes on more and more of his progenitor’s physical aspect.

Alrighty ... seems legit.

Natural Expert (Ex)
From second level, the Dragon Disciple gains the multiattack and improved multiattack feats as bonus feats

He also benefits from those of the two-weapon fighting, improved two-weapon fighting, greater two-weapon fighting and perfect two-weapon fighting feats of which he meets the base attack bonus requirements, though only as pertains to his natural weapons and unarmed strikes.

Why not just say he gets Two-weapon fighting feat at level X, even if he doesn't meet the prerequisites. It's a little bit easier for the players to just read "oh, I get TWF, this level" instead of "oh, i leveled up, let me check if I meet the pre-reqs for TWF".

These increases stack and are gained as if through level advancement.

What does that mean 'as if through level advancement'. I have a feeling it's meant to be, these bonuses can stack with other bonuses, like size bonus, enhancement bonus etc. But the way I'm reading, it means that these are gained 'as if through level advancement', meaning you only get this bonus to your ability score, and may not gain the +1 to any ability score as you normally would.

I may be simply wrong in my DnD terminology, but the statement 'as if through level adjustment' is confusing me. And if it confuses me, it might confuse other people.

Trip Kick (Ex)
From third level, the dragon disciple may make a trip kick attack when he attacks, or up to two such attacks as part of a full attack action. Each is made in lieu of a normal claw attack and works in exactly the same way, save that if the trip kick hits, the dragon disciple may make a trip attempt as a free action, need not make an extra touch attack, and is considered to have the improved trip feat for this purpose.

first, it's kinda silly to have an ability called "trip Kick" when you use your claws (which I assume are part of your hands). Also, I think the writing could be a little more concise. Maybe something like ...

"Starting at third level, when you hit with a claw attack, you may make a trip attempt as an immediate action, that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. You are treated as having the improved trip feat for the purposes of this attack, and you need not make an additional touch attack to confirm the trip attempt.

Breath Weapon (Su)
At 3rd level, a dragon disciple gains a minor breath weapon. The type and shape depend on the dragon variety whose heritage he enjoys (see below). Regardless of the ancestor, the breath weapon deals 2d8 points of damage of the appropriate energy type.

While it can only be used once per day at third level, it can be used once more every four levels thereafter, also dealing 2d8 more damage. Use all the rules for dragon breath weapons except as specified here.

The DC of the breath weapon is 10 + class level + Con modifier.

A line-shaped breath weapon is 5 feet high, 5 feet wide, and 60 feet long. A cone-shaped breath weapon is 30 feet long.[/b]

Ok, seems fine, although I might add that the saves will be quite high for the ECL. Especially with the CON boost from the class, plus if the PC decided to make CON his thing.

Never Let Go (Ex)
When the dragon disciple hits with a bite attack, he may choose to make a free grapple, is treated as though he had the improved grapple feat and need not make an extra touch attack. If he does so, he also has both his hands free to attack, or cast spells if he is capable of so doing, until such a time as the opponent controls the grapple.

I mean ... I love this ability, but I don't see this as physically possible. A grappled character pretty much can't do anything until he is free of the grapple. So imagine a medium sized DD, and said DD grapples an ogre (large creature). That's not impossible, given improved grapple, and assuming a decent STR score. So... how is clamping down really hard with your teeth (which are pretty small compared to the rest of your body, even though they're large enough to deal bite damage....) able to keep a creature 1 size category larger than yourself pinned?

It should probably be more along the lines of ...

"The Dragon Disciple gains the "Improved Grapple" feat as a bonus feat ... in addition, upon a successful grapple attempt, he automatically deals bite damage. If he pins his target, he make make a Coup de Grace with his bite attack, as after a successful grapple."

Greater Claws and Bite (Ex)
At fifth level, and every sixth level thereafter, the Dragon Disciple's claws and bite deal damage as though they were one size larger, even if they were not directly caused from the class.

Good, good.

Rending Attack (Ex)
From seventh level, when the dragon disciple hits with a natural attack, he causes the creature hit to acquire a rend point. Each subsequent attack against them, whether by the Dragon Disciple or not, causes the creature to take another point of damage. Rend points and the damage they deal stack.

Rend is a monster ability that deals extra damage on a successful full attack (or at least, successfully hitting with two or more X). What you're describing is a bleed effect. I would re-word so that "rend point" is descirbed as, extra bleed damage, or something. Rend point is fine I guess.

Anyway, what your describing is that once you hit a target wit ha natural weapon, they take extra damage from all sources, and that the extra damage increases by one after every hit they sustain? Well, that's fine, but how long do these 'rend points' last? A round? the encounter? a day? until healed? You don't specify. Please specify.

Wings (Ex)
At 9th level, a dragon disciple grows a set of draconic wings. He may now fly at a speed equal to his normal land speed, with average maneuverability. He also gains two wing attacks, each dealing 1d3 damage for a medium creature. This improves each time his bite and claw attacks improve (so in reality, a medium dragon disciple will deal 1d4 damage with his wings).

At 16th level, the dragon disciple has a 45 ft fly speed and good maneuverability, and at 20th level, a 60 ft fly speed with perfect maneuverability.

Whatever his maneuverability, the dragon disciple may make dive attacks using any of his natural weapons he wishes.

Seems good, although Perfect maneuverability may be too much when you think about how the DD has to flap his wings. I mean, he's not a hummingbird, nor is he flying supernaturally. Even regular birds have average maneuverability (see SRD Eagle).

Storm of Claws (Ex)
At ninth level, the dragon disciple is always considered to be under the effects of the Psionic Lion's Charge power, though this is not actually a psionic effect.

Way easier to just say he can make a full attack on a charge. Instead of having player's look up what Psionic lion's charge does.

Blindsense (Ex)
At 10th level, the dragon disciple gains blindsense with a range of 30 feet. Using nonvisual senses the dragon disciple notices things it cannot see. He usually does not need to make Spot or Listen checks to notice and pinpoint the location of creatures within range of his blindsense ability, provided that he has line of effect to that creature.



Half-Dragon Apotheosis
At 10th level, a dragon disciple takes on the half-dragon template pertaining to his dragon type. He acquires low-light vision, 60-foot darkvision, immunity to sleep and paralysis effects, and immunity to the energy type used by his breath weapon. Ignore the level adjustment provided by the template when determining his effective character level.

If, by some miracle, the Dragon Disciple already had the half-dragon template, he regains either the three hit dice, any experience he used to reduce the level adjustment of the template, or a combination of the above, as appropriate such that he has the correct number of experience points and subsequent level as though he had never taken such a template in the first place.

Alright ... works fine

Piercing Strike (Ex)
From thirteenth level, all of the dragon disciple's natural attacks are considered touch attacks. In addition, when the dragon disciple attacks with a bite attack, once per round he may make a free sunder attempt against a weapon, armour or shield only. When he makes a claw attack, once per round he may make a free disarm attempt. When he makes a wing attack, once per round he may make a free feint attempt. These attempts are made as free actions, need no separate attack rolls, and are made as though the dragon disciple had the improved sunder, improved disarm or improved feint feats respectively.

I don't think "let's make all of my natural attacks have the Brilliant weapon property, but better" is a balanced way to make the natural attacks of the DD better. Even true damage don't ignore AC. The free combat maneuvers are cool though, so i'd keep those. If you want, this might be a good time to say 'treat all of the DD's natural attacks as magic weapons, for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction.

Dragon's Tail (Ex)
From fourteenth level, the dragon disciple gains a tail attack in addition to his other natural attacks. Nominally, the tail does 1d4 damage for a medium creature, but it improves in the same way as the claw and bite attacks, so deals at least 1d8 damage for a medium creature.

I'm starting to think having a table for natural weapon damage would be useful, but then again, I'm pretty sure the natural weapon damage only improves once, and I'm too lazy to double check ... so I could be horribly wrong.

Claw of Dispulsion (Su)
Each round from fifteenth level, the dragon disciple may make a single claw of dispulsion attack, though despite the name it can be made as a claw, bite, wing, or tail attack. Whether or not the attack hits, the target is subject to a Dispel Magic spell, substituting the attack roll for a caster level check.

Nifty ...

Claw of Disjunction (Su)
Once per day, the dragon disciple may make a special sunder attempt, either as part of a normal sunder attack or a piercing strike. If the special sunder attempt hits, the item targeted is destroyed utterly. If this is attempted in an antimagic field or null psionics field, it has a 1% chance per level to destroy it, otherwise it fails as and other supernatural ability might.

Similarly, it only has a 1% chance per level of affecting an artifact, and if it does the dragon disciple must take a DC 25 will save or be slain instantly, his body utterly destroyed - there is not even enough for resurrection to work, though true resurrection or wish followed by either resurrection or another wish would work. There is also a 95% chance of attracting a powerful being with an interest in, or connection to, such a device, if any.

"Uhm, excuse me, my name's Tiamat, and you just broke my favorite sword."

Seriously though, you could just roll this ability into Dispulsion Strike. "at X level it improves to Disjunction Strike etc..." Whic hmught free up room for another awesome ability.

Dragon Apotheosis (Special)
At 20th level, the dragon disciple becomes a true dragon, though he is also capable of assuming his humanoid form. The true dragon form loses the half-dragon template given from Half-Dragon Apotheosis, but instead becomes a dragon of three sizes larger than the dragon disciple, retaining all of its natural weapons and dealing increased natural weapon damage as normal (of course, this can easily cause the dragon disciple's weapons to deal damage as though they were a size category that doesn't exist. Use the table below to determine the damage done). The dragon has a fly speed of 240 feet, and its natural armour bonus to armour class increases by a further +16.

The dragon may use its breath weapon every 1d4 rounds instead of having a daily limit. The dragon has the same immunities as half-dragons. Finally, the dragon's ability scores increase as follows: Str +12 Con +8 Int +6 Cha +6.

{table=head]Size|Bite|Claw/Tail|Wing
Colossal|4d6|3d6|2d6
Enormous (+)|6d6|4d6|3d6
Immense (++)|8d6|6d6|4d6
Behemothic (+++)|10d6|8d6|6d6[/table]

How long does the transformation take, and what type of action is it? i.e standard, swift etc. Also, you don't adjust the flight maneuverability, I'd imagine a colossal dragon would be pretty clumsy at flying.

Overall, I like it, Definitely a step up from that lost and forgotten PrC.

hope my PEACH helps.

[Jormengand]

Why not just say he gets Two-weapon fighting feat at level X, even if he doesn't meet the prerequisites. It's a little bit easier for the players to just read "oh, I get TWF, this level" instead of "oh, i leveled up, let me check if I meet the pre-reqs for TWF".

So that the poor bugger can multi-class without killing his ability to do things, largely. I mean, for all my efforts to make the poor bugger better, he's still a dragon disciple. We don't want to make him too terrible.

What does that mean 'as if through level advancement'. I have a feeling it's meant to be, these bonuses can stack with other bonuses, like size bonus, enhancement bonus etc. But the way I'm reading, it means that these are gained 'as if through level advancement', meaning you only get this bonus to your ability score, and may not gain the +1 to any ability score as you normally would.

I may be simply wrong in my DnD terminology, but the statement 'as if through level adjustment' is confusing me. And if it confuses me, it might confuse other people.

It means that they follow the rules given in the level advancement section - that is, they are non-magical, they are forever considered part of your stat block, and so forth.

first, it's kinda silly to have an ability called "trip Kick" when you use your claws (which I assume are part of your hands). Also, I think the writing could be a little more concise. Maybe something like ...

"Starting at third level, when you hit with a claw attack, you may make a trip attempt as an immediate action, that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. You are treated as having the improved trip feat for the purposes of this attack, and you need not make an additional touch attack to confirm the trip attempt.

The fact that it's a kick is why you have to make it separately from the rest of your claw attacks, since you're using the claws on your feet to trip them, and also why it has the slightly odd wording (which is no longer than yours and also serves to prevent you from making too many of them, without forcing you to use up your swift action.)

Ok, seems fine, although I might add that the saves will be quite high for the ECL. Especially with the CON boost from the class, plus if the PC decided to make CON his thing.

Why would the PC make CON his thing? He already has a d12 HD, high fort and CON boosts. It's not like a wizard who gets saves scaling from his INT, which is his primary casting ability.

I mean ... I love this ability, but I don't see this as physically possible.

Stop right there. You're in D&D territory now, so stick yer hands in the air and step back around.

In all seriousness, I'm not sure that the Bouncing Monk, D2 Crusader and the crazy multi-class clusterflub who can move faster than a car really care about your physically possible. Sure, these are all perfect examples of things you're not meant to be able to do, but even with a tamer example like Fall Any Distance, you're pushing suspension of disbelief.

And anyway, taking a crocodile as an example (closest thing to a dragon I can think of) the force of it closing its jaws is, well, quite a lot (I think it's the equivalent to several tons). I can see an incredibly strong (Probably around STR 20) and determined quarter-dragon managing to pin an eight-to-ten foot tall creature down with his teeth if he got lucky. It doesn't break my suspension of disbelief any more than an exceptionally lucky but pretty wimpy wizard potentially doing the same one-handed.

Rend is a monster ability that deals extra damage on a successful full attack (or at least, successfully hitting with two or more X). What you're describing is a bleed effect. I would re-word so that "rend point" is descirbed as, extra bleed damage, or something. Rend point is fine I guess.

Anyway, what your describing is that once you hit a target wit ha natural weapon, they take extra damage from all sources, and that the extra damage increases by one after every hit they sustain? Well, that's fine, but how long do these 'rend points' last? A round? the encounter? a day? until healed? You don't specify. Please specify.

Oh, yeah. Should probably specify that, yeah...

Seems good, although Perfect maneuverability may be too much when you think about how the DD has to flap his wings. I mean, he's not a hummingbird, nor is he flying supernaturally. Even regular birds have average maneuverability (see SRD Eagle).

Yeah, but this is at the point where rogues can kill the average person about twelve times over every second, monks are outsiders or whatever and don't age and can fall as far as they like, all as (Ex) abilities, so I don't think we need to be too harsh on the poor DD.

Way easier to just say he can make a full attack on a charge. Instead of having player's look up what Psionic lion's charge does.

Yeah, possibly.

I don't think "let's make all of my natural attacks have the Brilliant weapon property, but better" is a balanced way to make the natural attacks of the DD better. Even true damage don't ignore AC. The free combat maneuvers are cool though, so i'd keep those. If you want, this might be a good time to say 'treat all of the DD's natural attacks as magic weapons, for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction.

Hmmm... true.

I'm starting to think having a table for natural weapon damage would be useful, but then again, I'm pretty sure the natural weapon damage only improves once, and I'm too lazy to double check ... so I could be horribly wrong.

You can look them up on SRD: Weapons. I guess I could extend the Dragon Apotheosis table so it covered normal sizes too.

"Uhm, excuse me, my name's Tiamat, and you just broke my favorite sword."

Yup. I worry slightly that the DD might be better at this whole "Artifact destroying" business than wizards, because the DD "Only" dies (Clerics, man) even if he fails the save, whereas a wizard ends up stuck fighting a "Powerful being" with no spells, and can't get his spells back.

Seriously though, you could just roll this ability into Dispulsion Strike. "at X level it improves to Disjunction Strike etc..." Whic hmught free up room for another awesome ability.

Ehh, I'd rather not mix my /round and /day abilities together too much, it'd just be confusing.

How long does the transformation take, and what type of action is it? i.e standard, swift etc.

Standard, as is the default.

Also, you don't adjust the flight maneuverability, I'd imagine a colossal dragon would be pretty clumsy at flying.

Mm... true. Though you're probably not actually colossal, I still see your point.

Overall, I like it, Definitely a step up from that lost and forgotten PrC.

hope my PEACH helps.

Bah! Barbarian 5 Psychic Warrior 4 Bard 1 Dragon Disciple 10 has served me well on many occasions! (Can you see where the inspiration for Storm of Claws came from?)

And yeah, it's kinda useful, and has given me some ideas. Where's your thing for me to do things to?

[TheFamilarRaven]

So that the poor bugger can multi-class without killing his ability to do things, largely. I mean, for all my efforts to make the poor bugger better, he's still a dragon disciple. We don't want to make him too terrible.

Fair enough.

It means that they follow the rules given in the level advancement section - that is, they are non-magical, they are forever considered part of your stat block, and so forth.

That was my first thought ... the term just threw me off. Thanks for the clarification.

The fact that it's a kick is why you have to make it separately from the rest of your claw attacks, since you're using the claws on your feet to trip them, and also why it has the slightly odd wording (which is no longer than yours and also serves to prevent you from making too many of them, without forcing you to use up your swift action.)

This one was my bad ... I read the ability as "If a claw hits, you get a free trip attack". But it actually reads, "instead of a claw attack, you can make a trip attempt, without having to make a touch attack"

Why would the PC make CON his thing?

For fun.

Stop right there. You're in D&D territory now, so stick yer hands in the air and step back around.

In all seriousness, I'm not sure that the Bouncing Monk, D2 Crusader and the crazy multi-class clusterflub who can move faster than a car really care about your physically possible. Sure, these are all perfect examples of things you're not meant to be able to do, but even with a tamer example like Fall Any Distance, you're pushing suspension of disbelief.

And anyway, taking a crocodile as an example (closest thing to a dragon I can think of) the force of it closing its jaws is, well, quite a lot (I think it's the equivalent to several tons). I can see an incredibly strong (Probably around STR 20) and determined quarter-dragon managing to pin an eight-to-ten foot tall creature down with his teeth if he got lucky. It doesn't break my suspension of disbelief any more than an exceptionally lucky but pretty wimpy wizard potentially doing the same one-handed.

I'd just like to say that i can move faster than a car. Matter o' fact anyone can really ... all depends on how fast the car is moving .....

Other than that ... we can justify a monk's slow fall because we've seen enough Martial Arts movies and Xiao lin Monks to be like "Oh, they really know how to push the limits of the human body to the extreme". We can see a puny wizard getting lucky enough to pin an ogre because we know that if certain body parts are positioned right, they can't really do anything (headlocks, half-nelson's etc), and the wizard still has to use his entire body.

A Crocodile is 11-12 ft long according to SRD (also still a medium creature, lol what?), and they have some pretty big mouths. I mean, really, it's like damn! Now go look at the example half-dragon in MM1, he doesn't have a head like a crocodile. they could most certainly have a dragon like head ... but not to the proportions needed to have a crocodile-like jaw. Also, the DD is not even half-dragon yet, so he is sporting bare minimal draconic features. Or, as another example, check out elderscrolls Argonians. Completely reptilian humanoid, but does it look like they have the teeth to hold down something larger than them? Or even the same size?

I can see the DD clamping down on someone's arm, therefore preventing the use of weapons, (except light and unarmed/natural attacks), and establishing a hold. But being able to pin with just his mouth? I don't see it as probable, yet alone possible.

I can get behind the ability to freely attack with natural weapons at no penalty, but I'd add a clause that states he loses the ability to fight with both claws if he attempts to pin, or is pinning an opponent.

Anyway ... that's my opinion.

Yeah, but this is at the point where rogues can kill the average person about twelve times over every second, monks are outsiders or whatever and don't age and can fall as far as they like, all as (Ex) abilities, so I don't think we need to be too harsh on the poor DD.

Ok.

Yup. I worry slightly that the DD might be better at this whole "Artifact destroying" business than wizards, because the DD "Only" dies (Clerics, man) even if he fails the save, whereas a wizard ends up stuck fighting a "Powerful being" with no spells, and can't get his spells back.

*GASP* There's a class that can do ONE thing better than a wizard!?! BLASPHEMY!

I really wouldn't worry about it too much, i mean, it's a 1% of success anyway, and how often does destroying an artifact come up in DnD. Most of the time the method of artifact destruction is handled in the story anyway, liking taking the One Ring to Mt. Doom.

Ehh, I'd rather not mix my /round and /day abilities together too much, it'd just be confusing.

Fair enough.

Bah! Barbarian 5 Psychic Warrior 4 Bard 1 Dragon Disciple 10 has served me well on many occasions! (Can you see where the inspiration for Storm of Claws came from?)

Well, bard doesn't qualify for DD in 3.5, so I think they're still a novelty PrC (at least in the DMG)

And yeah, it's kinda useful, and has given me some ideas. Where's your thing for me to do things to?

No problem ... I'll add my Centurion to to my sig ... so check for it there.

[Krinmar]

Claw of Disjunction (Su)
Once per day, the dragon disciple may make a special sunder attempt, either as part of a normal sunder attack or a piercing strike. If the special sunder attempt hits, the item targeted is destroyed utterly. If this is attempted in an antimagic field or null psionics field, it has a 1% chance per level to destroy it, otherwise it fails as and other supernatural ability might.

Similarly, it only has a 1% chance per level of affecting an artifact, and if it does the dragon disciple must take a DC 25 will save or be slain instantly, his body utterly destroyed - there is not even enough for resurrection to work, though true resurrection or wish followed by either resurrection or another wish would work. There is also a 95% chance of attracting a powerful being with an interest in, or connection to, such a device, if any.

This remember me Tolkien's Dragons that can even destroy Sauron's rings (Dwarwen mostly according The Silmarillion)... But... They use their Breath...

You paid a lot of attention to Claw and Bite aspect of Dragon but forget about another major aspect - Arcane Natural Abilities of all Dragons.
So maybe... if u don't want to creat a spell list...
But that's not a point! I just want to suggest to give your Dragon Disciple Invocation abilities like Warlock and Dragonfire Adept, just a few... and tied to their Heritage (Metallic, Chromatic, etc). Most of them will be out-combat-utility focused! Why? Because most of old PrC has a good fluff, and anciant-bug abilities with untyped bonuses, but they don't have versatile capability.
Thats why most of them has Tier 4 or less. If we give your Claw-minator invocation ablilities with depend of Charisma, he will become real Dragon Disciple that have a Grace of Anciants and Will of Scale Ones and so on (Just some names for a possible homebrew invocations). It will make your DD more interesting to play in peace-time or in non-battle encounters.

List of possible spells for Invocations:
Locate object
Water Breathing
Suggestion
Create/Destroy Water
Sound imitation
Ventriloquism
Veil
Corrup Water
Darkness
Plant Growth
Find the path
Freezing fog
Fog cloud
Gust of wind
Endure Elements
Control Winds
Control Weather
Detect THougts
Control Water
Spider climb
All this "Dragon" abilities you can augment with some fluff and utility stuff because it's invocations after all...

[Jormengand]

I can get behind the ability to freely attack with natural weapons at no penalty, but I'd add a clause that states he loses the ability to fight with both claws if he attempts to pin, or is pinning an opponent.

Anyway ... that's my opinion.

Well, bard doesn't qualify for DD in 3.5, so I think they're still a novelty PrC (at least in the DMG)

Hmm... that's a good point. I'll change that.

Bards are capable of casting arcane spells without preparation, and you can get the required K (A) ranks too. They qualify.

...Invocation...Warlock and Dragonfire Adept...invocation...Invocations...invocations...

I'm trying to replace a core class with core abilities, which is in fact one of the two reasons I took the psionic thing out (the other being someone pointed it out). I don't want players to be told to refer to such-and-such a splatbook for purposes of whatever.

The dragon disciple also doesn't even advance spellcasting progression, so throwing spells, invocations, powers, utterances (Fus ro dah!) or whatever else at it doesn't really mesh. It was kind of meant to be a gish but then it wasn't, so I stuck with wasn't.

[TheFamilarRaven]

Bards are capable of casting arcane spells without preparation, and you can get the required K (A) ranks too. They qualify.

well now I feel sheepish ... ... Just checked and you're right ... for some reason I thought that you had to have levels in Sorcerer specifically to qualify ... Maybe because like, every draconic feat requires Sorcerer. Hmmmm.


Anyway ... in case you haven't found it yet. Centurion

[Krinmar]

I'm trying to replace a core class with core abilities, which is in fact one of the two reasons I took the psionic thing out (the other being someone pointed it out). I don't want players to be told to refer to such-and-such a splatbook for purposes of whatever.

The dragon disciple also doesn't even advance spellcasting progression, so throwing spells, invocations, powers, utterances (Fus ro dah!) or whatever else at it doesn't really mesh. It was kind of meant to be a gish but then it wasn't, so I stuck with wasn't.

but, but... ah... I get it.
So how about to give him some spell-like/supernatural abilities according his chosen Dragon? Just a few? no more then 2 or 3?

[The Dragon]

Given that the prc actually gives them some increased spellcasting, I'd give them some SLA's or maybe hexblade style casting off of the sorcerer list.

That's just me though.

What he gains from the ½dragon template is unclear, as is the benefis he gains from dragon apothesis.

Do the ability advancements you gain from levels count towards the benefits of ½dragon?

Do they count towards the increased stats of dragon apothesis?

Also, Ac is horrible at low-mid levels, and two-weapon fighting does not work for natural weapons at all...


Overall, I like it. I might play it if I had armor and weapon proficiencies from another source. Paladin//This class would be a fun gestalt.

[Jormengand]

Given that the prc actually gives them some increased spellcasting, I'd give them some SLA's or maybe hexblade style casting off of the sorcerer list.

That's just me though.

It doesn't advance spellcasting properly, so ehh.

What he gains from the ½dragon template is unclear, as is the benefis he gains from dragon apothesis.

Do the ability advancements you gain from levels count towards the benefits of ½dragon?

No, because he gains the half-dragon template on top of them... just like he always used to.

Do they count towards the increased stats of dragon apothesis?

No, because he's not even always in that form. He gains them on top of them.

Also, Ac is horrible at low-mid levels,

I'm not sure whether you mean horrible as in OP or horrible as in UP, but I have a hard time seeing it as either... what gives?

and two-weapon fighting does not work for natural weapons at all...

If you have natural weapons, you are considered armed. If you are armed (or considered armed) in both hands, you can TWF.

Overall, I like it. I might play it if I had armor and weapon proficiencies from another source. Paladin//This class would be a fun gestalt.

I feel that ninth and fifteenth would be fun levels, especially if you threw Marshal on the same side as pally.

[The Dragon]

It doesn't advance spellcasting properly, so ehh.

Like I said, to each his own.

No, because he gains the half-dragon template on top of them... just like he always used to.


No, because he's not even always in that form. He gains them on top of them.

I think you're giving them too much strength to be honest. Rocket tag isn't all that fun, and this class turns characters into rocket-taggers.

I'm not sure whether you mean horrible as in OP or horrible as in UP, but I have a hard time seeing it as either... what gives?

They get AC 11+dex at first level, which is sodding dangerous for a front-line combatant. I'd recommend giving them light armor proficiency.

If you have natural weapons, you are considered armed. If you are armed (or considered armed) in both hands, you can TWF.

Look at what the SRD says: Two weapon fighting
And natural weapons.
In short, two-weapon fighting requires you to have weapons in your off hand, and does not care about being armed.
Natural attacks are secondary and primary, and does not gain minuses for being made with the off-hand.

If you want to make it make a difference, I suggest letting them treat natural weapons as manifactured weapons.

Doing so will make them worse off, though: It wont matter until eight level when they gain iterative attacks, and even then, they get reduced strength and worse to hit than they would when making natural attacks.

I feel that ninth and fifteenth would be fun levels, especially if you threw Marshal on the same side as pally.

True.

[Jormengand]

-stuff-

Changed the wording on Natural Master so it's more clear. Apart from that, I don't see a need to change much - DDs are meant to tank hits rather than dodging them, hence the massive HD and CON bonuses everywhere, so giving them massive amounts of AC as well is a little superfluous. Also, when you're making three pretty dangerous attacks, you're hench enough that you should be able to knock that pretty little fighter flat on his face before he even tries anything.

[The Dragon]

Changed the wording on Natural Master so it's more clear. Apart from that, I don't see a need to change much - DDs are meant to tank hits rather than dodging them, hence the massive HD and CON bonuses everywhere, so giving them massive amounts of AC as well is a little superfluous. Also, when you're making three pretty dangerous attacks, you're hench enough that you should be able to knock that pretty little fighter flat on his face before he even tries anything.

I dislike the idea of class design encouraging rocket tag.

Do as thou wilt, but I find it distasteful.

[Jormengand]

I dislike the idea of class design encouraging rocket tag.

That's like saying Frank and K encourage T1, or Emperor Tippy encourages infinite wish loops and teleportation circle abuse. Frank and K acknowledges that, in reality, T1 is how the game is played at any half-decent optimisation level, and makes classes to match that. Emperor Tippy acknowledges that, in reality, if wizards were actually sensible, they'd abuse the game rules, so he makes a campaign setting to match that. D&D is basically going to be rocket tag, so your class either needs to be able to join in with it (barbarian), get out of its way (fighter with high AC), actually tank the amount of damage it does (probably barbarian again) or do something which is so crazily meta-busting that it's probably unreliable and liable to get you killed (truenamer with mortalbane, StS and REN abuse). I'm not really encouraging it, I'm joining in with it.

[lunar2]

the natural expert class feature does absolutely nothing. since all of a DD's natural weapons are considered primary attacks, multiattack and improved multiattack do nothing, since they only affect secondary weapons.

the two weapon fighting line doesn't do anything, because you aren't two weapon fighting, you're natural weapon fighting. two weapon fighting is when you attack with two manufactured weapons in the same round, and DD's get no weapon proficiencies.


also, you might as well give them light armor proficiency, since it doesn't actually hurt beyond about 3rd level, when they can grab a mithril chain shirt.

oh, and you get a weird rules interaction where, as soon as they get the half dragon template, they gain simple weapon proficiency, since all dragons with humanoid shapes have simple weapon proficiency. so you might as well give them simple weapon proficiency, as well.

also, the DC for the breath weapon should be 10 + 1/2 class level + con. prestige class abilities are 10+ class level because you'll almost never have more than 10 levels in them pre-epic. base classes are 10+1/2 class level, so that saves and save DC's actually increase at about the same rate. Con is already a DD's second most important ability score, and they get con bonuses, so they're saves are going to be hard enough as is.

consider bumping them up to 4+ skills/level. they've got a big class skill list, and they're going to be starving for skill points, since INT is a dump stat for them.

also, maybe add in frightful presence and spell resistance at some point. possibly as part of the capstone.

[Jormengand]

the natural expert class feature does absolutely nothing. since all of a DD's natural weapons are considered primary attacks, multiattack and improved multiattack do nothing, since they only affect secondary weapons.

Oh yeah, I changed it to make them all primary after I put that in.

the two weapon fighting line doesn't do anything, because you aren't two weapon fighting, you're natural weapon fighting. two weapon fighting is when you attack with two manufactured weapons in the same round, and DD's get no weapon proficiencies.

"though as pertains to his natural weapons and unarmed strikes instead of manufactured weapons."

That should clear that up.

also, you might as well give them light armor proficiency, since it doesn't actually hurt beyond about 3rd level, when they can grab a mithril chain shirt.

The idea of the class is they use their own weapons and armour, instead of throwing a chain shirt on over their scales.

oh, and you get a weird rules interaction where, as soon as they get the half dragon template, they gain simple weapon proficiency, since all dragons with humanoid shapes have simple weapon proficiency. so you might as well give them simple weapon proficiency, as well.

In that case, they get SWP at tenth level. The same way real DDs do. The fact that they have no good reason (beyond wanting to hit someone at range, I guess, but they could just fly up to them) to want to use simple weapons makes that unimportant.

also, the DC for the breath weapon should be 10 + 1/2 class level + con. prestige class abilities are 10+ class level because you'll almost never have more than 10 levels in them pre-epic. base classes are 10+1/2 class level, so that saves and save DC's actually increase at about the same rate. Con is already a DD's second most important ability score, and they get con bonuses, so they're saves are going to be hard enough as is.

That's true, I guess.

consider bumping them up to 4+ skills/level. they've got a big class skill list, and they're going to be starving for skill points, since INT is a dump stat for them.

Ehh. Fighters are sucking at a similar calibre in the skills department, and DDs aren't really meant to be using skills much. Not to mention they'll only need a few points in any STR-based class, and they get +4 INT during their stay anyway.

also, maybe add in frightful presence and spell resistance at some point. possibly as part of the capstone.

Dragons have frightful presence anyway, though. SR... maybe, I suppose, though the DD can just claw himself in the face if he really wants to dispel something. Or, y'know, save against it, because of his silly CON, pretty decent DEX and WIS and two high saves.

[lunar2]

"though as pertains to his natural weapons and unarmed strikes instead of manufactured weapons."

That should clear that up.

so they get a full set of natural attacks, and two full sets of unarmed strikes? damn, these things hit like a totemist.

The idea of the class is they use their own weapons and armour, instead of throwing a chain shirt on over their scales.

except the entire reason natural armor stacks with actual armor is because you're supposed to use both, not either/or.

Ehh. Fighters are sucking at a similar calibre in the skills department, and DDs aren't really meant to be using skills much. Not to mention they'll only need a few points in any STR-based class, and they get +4 INT during their stay anyway.

fighters are hardly the point you want to balance around. they are far from examples of good class design. besides, as it stands, this class has nothing to do outside of combat besides use skills, so it might as well be able to actually use those skills. also, changes to INT aren't retroactive, so those INT boosts don't help it at low levels.

Dragons have frightful presence anyway, though. SR... maybe, I suppose, though the DD can just claw himself in the face if he really wants to dispel something. Or, y'know, save against it, because of his silly CON, pretty decent DEX and WIS and two high saves.

dragons only get frightful presence when their entry says they have frightful presence. it is not a standard feature of the type. and this guy isn't going to have a great wis. he gets one wis boost, and that comes pretty late. in fact, i'd recommend replacing the dex boost he gets with another wis boost, since dragons (except for gem dragons) have only average dex, but very high wis. this guy will already have dex as his 3rd most important stat anyway, since he's only wearing light armor, and he needs a high armor class to survive

which reminds me. you need to add in rules for the true dragons that don't have standard energy breath weapons.

[Jormengand]

so they get a full set of natural attacks, and two full sets of unarmed strikes? damn, these things hit like a totemist.

Well, they're meant to hit things, so...

except the entire reason natural armor stacks with actual armor is because you're supposed to use both, not either/or.

Well, dodge, deflection, profane, shield, armour, natural armour, dexterity and so forth all stack, but I don't see any class that uses all of them. Like I said, the point of this class is that it doesn't use armour.

fighters are hardly the point you want to balance around. they are far from examples of good class design. besides, as it stands, this class has nothing to do outside of combat besides use skills, so it might as well be able to actually use those skills. also, changes to INT aren't retroactive, so those INT boosts don't help it at low levels.

The point is that fighters are a good example of a class which isn't meant to be great in the skills department.

dragons only get frightful presence when their entry says they have frightful presence. it is not a standard feature of the type. and this guy isn't going to have a great wis. he gets one wis boost, and that comes pretty late. in fact, i'd recommend replacing the dex boost he gets with another wis boost, since dragons (except for gem dragons) have only average dex, but very high wis. this guy will already have dex as his 3rd most important stat anyway, since he's only wearing light armor, and he needs a high armor class to survive

which reminds me. you need to add in rules for the true dragons that don't have standard energy breath weapons.

Ehh, maybe I'll change it.

You can't be one of them. I'm not having you throwing around a force-based breath weapon, TYVM.

[lunar2]

fighters aren't a good example of anything except how not to build a class.

[Jormengand]

fighters aren't a good example of anything except how not to build a class.

And yet people still play fighters, and make pretty good characters with them. How about Cleric (not a skillmonkey, so has 2+int) or paladin (not a skillmonkey, so has 2+int) or a sorcerer, or a wizard, or an archmage, or a blackguard, or an honest-to-Tiamat dragon disciple? Classes who aren't meant to use lots of skills don't get lots of skills.

If you want out-of-combat abilities, you're going to have to content yourself with "I just tanked all damage from that trap," "I just kicked down that door," "Yes, I can fly and carry the fighter at the same time," "No, I can't see that invisible plot item ten feet away from the paladin, that doesn't mean I don't know it's there," "Yes, I did just walk through a blazing inferno, your point?" "No, that hour-long debuff isn't affecting the cleric any more," "I'm sorry, that magic item doesn't exist anymore" and "Yeah, I'm carrying the entire party on my back. Also, I'm a dragon." I'm sure there's something you can do with all that.

[lunar2]

And yet people still play fighters, and make pretty good characters with them. How about Cleric (not a skillmonkey, so has 2+int) or paladin (not a skillmonkey, so has 2+int) or a sorcerer, or a wizard, or an archmage, or a blackguard, or an honest-to-Tiamat dragon disciple? Classes who aren't meant to use lots of skills don't get lots of skills.

If you want out-of-combat abilities, you're going to have to content yourself with "I just tanked all damage from that trap," "I just kicked down that door," "Yes, I can fly and carry the fighter at the same time," "No, I can't see that invisible plot item ten feet away from the paladin, that doesn't mean I don't know it's there," "Yes, I did just walk through a blazing inferno, your point?" "No, that hour-long debuff isn't affecting the cleric any more," "I'm sorry, that magic item doesn't exist anymore" and "Yeah, I'm carrying the entire party on my back. Also, I'm a dragon." I'm sure there's something you can do with all that.

fighter: capable of doing one thing very well, but that one thing is often not needed. alternatively, it's abilities are so unfocused that it has difficulty contributing at all. without ACFs, those are the only two possibilities for a fighter. it's either really good at a specific type of combat (melee damage, ranged damage, tripping, for example), and is almost totally unable to contribute otherwise, or it tries to be good at more than one specific thing, and it fails at everything. btw, one of those variants that make the fighter better? it's right in core (PHB? DMG?), and it's called the thug. you know what it does? it gives the fighter more skill points and a couple extra class skills.

paladin is worse than fighter. there's a reason blackguard and DD are considered brokenly weak. seriously, don't pick some of the weakest, worst designed classes in the game as your basis for judging the balance point of your class. the others cast spells that can boost or replace skill checks. it's fine for a cleric, wizard, or sorcerer to not have a lot of skill points, because they have other features that directly replace said skills.

tanked damage from a trap. so you're wasting your valuable HP when the trapmonkey could have taken care of, and forcing the healbot to waste resources healing you. congratulations, you didn't actually contribute anything. "HP sink" is not a party role.

kicked down a door. yeah, everyone else, including the commoner pack mule, can get that door open/broken, too. what's so special about the way you do it? you've brought nothing new to the table.

fly and carry the fighter. you aren't doing this for a long time, until you get strong enough to lift the fighter and all his gear as a light load. by that time, he can fly on his own, thank you very much.

see invisible objects. no, you can't. blindsense only tells you where creatures are. objects are as hidden form you as everyone else.

blazing inferno. so can every other character of about 5th level or higher (depending on the size of the inferno). fire only does 1d6 damage/round. also, this is only if you're immune to fire, which means you wasted your breath weapon ability, since fire is the most common resistance/immunity in the game. now, if you'd said swim through a river of acid, you'd have had a point.

debuffs. only if dispel magic is capable of dispelling them. and only if you know they are there. and you force the cleric to waste a spell healing himself after you clawed him in the face. and you wasted all his hour long buffs, since you aren't going to fail the dispel check very often.

magic item. so you're contributing to the party by destroying treasure? that'll make you popular.

carrying party. yeah, at level 20. what were you doing for the last 19 levels? also, at level 20, everyone can fly, and half the party can teleport. so what's your point?

so everything you mentioned is either something everyone of the same level can do, or something not worth doing. you have no real out of combat utility. none. when everything you can do can be replicated by a warrior or a magic item, your class isn't contributing anything.

[Jormengand]

paladin is worse than fighter.

You lost me at this line. Someone does not know how to tier system.

In any case, if it makes you so incredibly happy I'll give them two more skill points.

[Vhaidara]

I just checked, and standard, PHB Fighter is basically the top of T5, while Paladin is near bottom.

[Jormengand]

I just checked, and standard, PHB Fighter is basically the top of T5, while Paladin is near bottom.

You're reading the old version, which links to the new version right at the top of the post. (EDIT: In fact, no, that has both of them just in tier 5 with paladin in italics for "I dunno where to put this") They're both high T5, though the paladin is usually considered better because spells.

[lunar2]

paladins have higher optimization ceilings. they can actually move up 2 tiers at high op, while fighters only move up one. but at most optimization levels, the fighter is as good or better than the paladin.

and yeah, the newest version of the tier system, the one on this forum, removed the color coding, so both fighter and paladin are simply listed as T5. but this isn't reflective of a change in jaronk's opinion, it's merely a piece of formatting that got lost when the list was rescued from minmax boards.

[Jormengand]

and yeah, the newest version of the tier system, the one on this forum, removed the color coding, so both fighter and paladin are simply listed as T5. but this isn't reflective of a change in jaronk's opinion, it's merely a piece of formatting that got lost when the list was rescued from minmax boards.

The last one on minmax boards has them both tiered as high T5...

Anyway, this isn't really the point. Shall we move on?

[lunar2]

yeah, the point is you shouldn't be using T5 classes and -1 prestige classes as reference points when building a class. these classes suffer from more than just being weak options, they suffer from actual design flaws that make them difficult to play in a normal game without substantial optimizing beyond the rest of the party and/or the DM.

if you are aiming for a lower power class, that's fine. but all the changes that have been suggested so far would only cement this class in T4, whereas right now it's closer to T5, because for most levels the only thing it's good at is straight melee combat. now, granted, it's reaally good at melee combat, but that's all it's good at.

it can't tank because it's not sticky, and has at best average ac.

it can't effectively do ranged combat because its breath weapon is low damage and short range.

it can't do battlefield control without wasting a feat to get a cooldown on it's breath weapon, so it can do metabreath feats. so it requires 2 feats to be able to BFC, and that tactic is wasted once its breath weapon becomes at will, negating the prereqs of the feats used.

every single thing it could possibly do out of combat can be replicated via money or plain HD.

so yeah, this class is roughly equivalent to the vanilla fighter or paladin, which is not the place you want to be.