[PF] The Invincible Iron Man [Base Class]

[ErrantX]

I do think there should be a armor mod for a swim speed if your gonna do the whole environmental protection thing an also I would write out the environment classifications for ease of use and clarity

While I agree on the swim speed mod to a degree, Hydro Armor didn't "swim" per se but rather operated more like a submarine.

Pretty much this. Besides, the mods listed aren't the end all, be all comprehensive list. I don't see any reason why if you had a primarily aquatic campaign you couldn't change out flight repulsors for swim speed (or just use those for your swim speed).

As for the environment classifications, that is a tall order to ask of someone not getting paid to do so as there are a large number of different extreme environments in just the official 3.5/PF materials. When you factor in any campaign-original environments, it becomes a statistical nightmare. The mod's description is clear enough as it is. Although a note about consulting with the DM regarding the severity of extreme environments for Lesser/Greater mod purposes would be handy, especially since the environment is one of the DM's assets and not the PC's. No PC class should dictate what a DM does with his assets' mechanics.

The environmental suits are basically up to DM fiat, as is any homebrew really, but because it is a logistic nightmare, I left it deliberately vague in some respects just for this purpose.

The War Machine archetype was created as a Gunslinger-esque Iron Man archetype just without a Grit pool because the Battery/Mod system was close enough to Grit/Deed for me. It's also not limited to a single race so anybody can take it, although I did add some possible racial favored class bonuses for all of the core races and warforged.

The elemental damage aspect already exists via Elemental Repulsors. I did take that away from the War Machine archetype because the War Machine focuses on his ballistic mods and not his repulsors for damage.

As for giving the Iron Man class some Magical Defense Protocols of his own? I have a hunch that something like that is already being planned for the Magus Loricatus PrC. I wouldn't want to step on X's toes if that hunch is right.

With the renewed interest in the class, my interest in creating more prestige classes for this have been rekindled. I'll be resuming work on Magus Loricatus and potentially a Generator / Iron Man hybrid.

-X

[zhdarkstar]

After going over the Generator, I have a feeling that the hybrid will be a late-game 6-level class like the Mecha Senshi. As a matter of fact, just looking for the ideal spot to leave both classes puts it at Generator 6/Iron Man 8. Tough Builds and Construct Armor are where both classes really begin to take off and would have some very nice synergy. So feel free to take some parts from Mecha Senshi to build it, including Mecha Zord Armor. It is a variant of your Modular Armor, after all.

Also since it would be a late-game PrC, you might need to come up with some rulings for epic level play where the PC further the base classes after level 20 and some class features may need clarification on how they interact with each other.

[druidor]

This class looks awesome, but isn't construct armor kind of a huge nerf at level 7? Without a mod or something that allows for donating hp to the armor like the synthesist summoner, it seems like the armor would break way too easily for a while; also without having a use for your hp, all you use as far as stats go is int

[ErrantX]

This class looks awesome, but isn't construct armor kind of a huge nerf at level 7? Without a mod or something that allows for donating hp to the armor like the synthesist summoner, it seems like the armor would break way too easily for a while; also without having a use for your hp, all you use as far as stats go is int

The math I used for that was a d8 hit die is averaging around 4-5 hit points a roll, so let's say 5. Con is less important for an Iron Man, so we'll say you've got a 14 Con and a 16 Int. Okay, so at level 7 hit points: 8+4+5+4+5+4+5+14(con) = 59 hit points. Construct armor is going to give you a flat 35 hit points + 21 (Int mod) 56 hit points. Considering that you're also likely to have Int boosting items and such, as a Circlet of Int +2 or +4, that should push it to be roughly equivalent or slightly more.

I may put in a mod for tougher armor though...

EDIT: Already apparently thought of that, Enduring Armor grants a +30 HP bump every time you take it. Taking Enduring Shields helps as well, as it gives you a force shield of temporary hit points as well that helps with the tanking.

-X

[zhdarkstar]

As I was trying to build a sample Mecha Senshi (Iron Titan + Mysterious Guardian) for my old gaming group, I was wondering about how two modifications interact with each other: Powerful Build and Smashing Fists/Knuckle Bombs. Could you technically build the fists of the armor as one size larger without penalty? This would bring Smashing Fists and Knuckle Bombs up to 1d8 and 2d6, respectively. Otherwise, the Iron Titan doesn't really have good weapon options by being forced into punching, other than the force shield bashing.

[Deviston]

First question, all of the mods that require armor X don't seem to make sense to me why it requires that specific armor. With the ultimate equipment, there are tons of new armors and many would work great for this class. Wouldn't a better entry be armor TYPE X? Like instead of full-plate, just heavy armors? And instead of breastplate, medium armors? Because several of these new armors are "tin coffins".

Suits: What action does it take to install/remove a wand from one of the four wand sheaths? Does it function like a warforged wand sheath in such that "Any character that could normally activate the wand can do so simply by pointing his finger and thinking about activating it"? And can one choose to swap between using the wand's charge or battery? Or, since it's installed, it uses up battery whether you want it to or not? What happens when battery runs out, does it begin using charges or still doesn't function because it ONLY uses battery when installed?

Tractor Beam: Can it be used to don/doff metal armor as a full-round action similar to what Compacted Form can do?

Smashing Blows/Knuckle Bombs: Are there any other ways to add magical properties to this "weapon"? Aka, would I need to suggest a custom mod or are there alternate means?

Also, why does Smashing Blows NOT have "You count as having the Improved Unarmed Strike feat for the purposes of requirements and prerequisites while wearing a suit with this modification, even though you do not actually have the feat."
Or maybe the intention was to in fact, give the Iron Man the gauntlet as listed in the weapons table? If not... how would the two interact? How would spiked gauntlets interact with this modification? And are the spiked gauntlets enchantable even though the armor isn't?

Also, how do the above interact with Powerful Build? Can't I just use Large (if I'm medium) spiked gauntlets? But once again, how would that interact with Smashing Blows.

Perception Matrix: Feels underwhelming, maybe adds half again distance to special senses? Aka, if you have darkvision 60 you get +30 on top etc.

Jump Jets: Adds bonus to a skill that isn't a class skill. Should Jump Jets also make it a class skill? Or perhaps removes the normal jumping ratio restrictions? Aka, if you jump horizontal, your check is how many feet you travel. Aka, if you jump vertical, our check is how many feet you travel. Or some combination of one or the other. Right now it seems like a poor man's class skill. Since it gives you 3 less than putting a skill point in at every rank.

Force Shields: It says that is provides AC versus touch attacks of incorporeal creatures. Does this mean it is a deflection bonus to AC? Or is it shield with the specific caveat that it counts as deflection for the purposes of incorporeal attacks? If 2 is true, then does it stack with deflection?

Recharge Matrix: Just to clarify... Pass Reflex for half damage, now make Fort to negate damage then charge at the cost of an immediate action? So if I have used my immediate action on my turn, and then baddie goes and lightnings me. Do I not get to make the following Fort save? Or do I not get the recharge after passing my Fort save (and negating damage)? Aka, what part takes the immediate action, the save or the recharge? Or are they one in the same? And if so, are you setting up precedence that making saves cost immediate actions?

Defensive Matrix: Was this intended to be +1 per 5 levels? Or 1 + 1 per 5 levels? Aka, if i take it at level 1 I assume it provides no benefit?

Armor Modifications: "Additionally, any modification that has differing tiers of strength (such as Flame Thrower) may be upgraded automatically as the Iron Man tinkers with them and improves upon their design to utilize their improved functions in lieu of replacing an existing modification on a suit."

Does this mean:
1) When I select Knuckle Bombs, I may "upgrade" Smashing Blows automatically, making my armor mods still only take up 1 slot
2) When I select Knuckle Bombs, I may "upgrade" Smashing Blows automatically, making my armor mods now take up 2 slots

As I understand it, the Armor Mod column on the class table is really "Armor Mods Known". Additionally, I interpret the rules as #1 in my examples. My Mods Known still has Smash. Blows, and learning K. Bombs counts against my Mods Known, but NOT against my armor slots due to the fact that I'm just making the item better.

Construct Armor: I wonder, in regards to the Strength of the armor, couldn't it provide a few points to the user. Aka, "...if the character has the same Strength or higher, he gains a +2 to his Strength as the armor assists..."
Precedence in modern science exists. Also, precedence in the moveis exist. If the Strength score was purely based on the armor, then Tony would never be "straining" in his many Strength checks. Actually.... the more i think about it, the Construct Armor should probably just give a flat +8 or something similar to the character. And a flat +4 Dex. I don't know... I'm conflicted. Talk me through this please someone hahah

Also, suggestion:
Natural Forger (by Madara)

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While many of the races who become an Iron Man work hard to enjoy the benefits of their craft, some very rare individuals cultivate their Suits straight out of the ground. These individuals cultivate their suits in a wide variety of manners, from taking it out of a tree to mining it out of stone. The most important factor is that the suit is powered by divine energy, which makes it act in a different manner.

Suits (Su): : The Natural Forger is unable to make suits out of special materials except natural materials such as darkwood or wyrwood, but they can create a suit in any natural environment, even if they wouldn't normally be considered to have the proper resources or tools to craft armor. The rules for crafting suits does not change except that the character may do so with any natural materials. The treatment of these natural materials to be as strong as steel is a secret only known to Iron Men. The treatment enables any natural material to have the same statistics as a standard suit of the intended armor, excect when modified by the use of special materials. Special material modify the armor as if it was a standard of its type. Craft checks, as applicable, still apply when repairing damage to a suit. This ability modifies the normal Suits ability of an Iron Man. All instances where abilities rely on the Intelligence score, now rely on the Wisdom score. Additionally, due to the unique nature and reaction of the life energy powering his suits, an Iron Man's suits benefit fully if targetted by conjuration (healing) magic.

Life Force(Su): Each Armor Suit a Natural Forger cultivates is imbued with energy from the forest. This life force acts the same as the Battery ability of an Iron Man. It can be used to power modifications, and it can be drained. The only exception is that the Life Force of a suit is treated like a living creature and is subject to positive energy effects. For every 4 HP a positive energy effect heals the Iron Man or his suit, the suit gains 1 Life Force. The character's base Life Force pool is equal to 3 + the character's Wisdom modifier, and he gains two more battery per class level after first level. This ability replaces the normal Battery ability of an Iron Man.

Natural Surge(Su): At third level, the Natural Forger begins to learn how to give life energy, rather than just receive it. Once per day for each point of Wisdom bonus the Iron Man has, they can heal with a touch. With one use of this ability, an Iron Man can heal 1d6 hit points of damage for every two Iron Man levels he possesses. Using this ability is a standard action, unless the Iron Man targets himself or his armor, in which case it is a swift action. This ability replaces the increase in repulsor damage at 3rd level. From that point on, the Natural Forger does 1d6 less damage with their repulsor than a normal Iron Man. Additionally, the Iron Man may take the Extra Lay on Hands feat as if he were a Paladin. This feat gives him two extra uses per day of his Natural Surge ability.

The Iron Titan: If the Iron Titan does NOT lose his AC bonus for Force Shield when making a shield bash it should be noted. Common sense says he wouldn't lose it, but just in case it's better to note that than not.

[druidor]

One other question, is there a limit to the wondrous items attached to the armor?

[ErrantX]

One other question, is there a limit to the wondrous items attached to the armor?

Yes, you only have two ring slots, for example, so you could only embed two rings. Your limit is slots where things attach to. If the item isn't a slotted item, in theory there's not really a limit, but there's also a logical limit (i.e. you're not installing a flying carpet for example, unless it's a cloak and then your dumb self will hang on the front of your cape).

-X

[ErrantX]

First question, all of the mods that require armor X don't seem to make sense to me why it requires that specific armor. With the ultimate equipment, there are tons of new armors and many would work great for this class. Wouldn't a better entry be armor TYPE X? Like instead of full-plate, just heavy armors? And instead of breastplate, medium armors? Because several of these new armors are "tin coffins".

I don't get the reference to “tin coffins”. Also, I don't make the assumption that someone will have access to Ultimate Equipment, I do, however, understand you're likely to have access to the core rules. If your DM allows it, that's fine, but it's easier to make the assumption you have the minimal books necessary and go from there.

Suits: What action does it take to install/remove a wand from one of the four wand sheaths? Does it function like a warforged wand sheath in such that "Any character that could normally activate the wand can do so simply by pointing his finger and thinking about activating it"? And can one choose to swap between using the wand's charge or battery? Or, since it's installed, it uses up battery whether you want it to or not? What happens when battery runs out, does it begin using charges or still doesn't function because it ONLY uses battery when installed?

Just like the text says, 10 minutes for install time. UMD time or multiclass as a spellcaster as far as wand activation. Wands installed ignore whatever they've got for remaining charges and instead use battery power.

Tractor Beam: Can it be used to don/doff metal armor as a full-round action similar to what Compacted Form can do?

Mods can't be used while the armor isn't being worn, so no. Or I'm missing the point?

Smashing Blows/Knuckle Bombs: Are there any other ways to add magical properties to this "weapon"? Aka, would I need to suggest a custom mod or are there alternate means?

Also, why does Smashing Blows NOT have "You count as having the Improved Unarmed Strike feat for the purposes of requirements and prerequisites while wearing a suit with this modification, even though you do not actually have the feat."
Or maybe the intention was to in fact, give the Iron Man the gauntlet as listed in the weapons table? If not... how would the two interact? How would spiked gauntlets interact with this modification? And are the spiked gauntlets enchantable even though the armor isn't?

Also, how do the above interact with Powerful Build? Can't I just use Large (if I'm medium) spiked gauntlets? But once again, how would that interact with Smashing Blows.

First off, Smashing Fists gains an enhancement bonus equal to the Suit's enhancement bonus. Magical augmentation such as flaming is not supported or would require a custom armor modification. Secondly, Smashing Blows does not do that because gauntlets that come with armor do not give you this function, and this is an upgrade on those gauntlets. You could in theory pay the cost of spikes for your armor and your unarmed strikes could be B/P then for damage, not a bad plan all in all, as spikes are enchanted separately and would allow you to bypass the rule of no-enhancements such as flaming. Thirdly, with Powerful Build, you'd be one size bigger for those purposes; everything in this class is designed with a Small to Medium-sized creature in mind. Adjust accordingly for larger or smaller.

Perception Matrix: Feels underwhelming, maybe adds half again distance to special senses? Aka, if you have darkvision 60 you get +30 on top etc.

Not a bad idea, honestly. Or improve those if you have them, or grant something like it if you don't. I'll think on that and likely add it in.

Jump Jets: Adds bonus to a skill that isn't a class skill. Should Jump Jets also make it a class skill? Or perhaps removes the normal jumping ratio restrictions? Aka, if you jump horizontal, your check is how many feet you travel. Aka, if you jump vertical, our check is how many feet you travel. Or some combination of one or the other. Right now it seems like a poor man's class skill. Since it gives you 3 less than putting a skill point in at every rank.

Just because it's not class doesn't make it relevant. I don't see Iron Men tumbling around, but since Acrobatics is more inclusive than in 3.5, you gotta do what you gotta do. This is a reflexive/passive boost, not a replacement for skill ranks and a basis for flight repulsors. I do like your idea of it removing those restrictions though.

Force Shields: It says that is provides AC versus touch attacks of incorporeal creatures. Does this mean it is a deflection bonus to AC? Or is it shield with the specific caveat that it counts as deflection for the purposes of incorporeal attacks? If 2 is true, then does it stack with deflection?

No, it's a shield bonus as stated, but it also works on incorporeal attacks along the same vein as spells like mage armor do. And as it is a shield bonus, it would stack with deflection bonuses to AC just like any other shield bonus would, but this one specifically will help against incorporeal attacks, unlike a more basic heavy shield, but won't help where you otherwise wouldn't get a shield bonus to AC (such as flat-footed).

Recharge Matrix: Just to clarify... Pass Reflex for half damage, now make Fort to negate damage then charge at the cost of an immediate action? So if I have used my immediate action on my turn, and then baddie goes and lightnings me. Do I not get to make the following Fort save? Or do I not get the recharge after passing my Fort save (and negating damage)? Aka, what part takes the immediate action, the save or the recharge? Or are they one in the same? And if so, are you setting up precedence that making saves cost immediate actions?

If you don't have an immediate action to use Recharge Matrix, you don't get to use it, period. The idea is that you've gotta have that split second's awareness to be able to focus yourself to use this modification. The save and recharge are one and the same. This specific action requires the saving throw to use it, because you're kinda letting yourself get electrocuted so you've gotta be prepared for it.

Defensive Matrix: Was this intended to be +1 per 5 levels? Or 1 + 1 per 5 levels? Aka, if i take it at level 1 I assume it provides no benefit?

Minimum of 1.

Armor Modifications: "Additionally, any modification that has differing tiers of strength (such as Flame Thrower) may be upgraded automatically as the Iron Man tinkers with them and improves upon their design to utilize their improved functions in lieu of replacing an existing modification on a suit."

Does this mean:
1) When I select Knuckle Bombs, I may "upgrade" Smashing Blows automatically, making my armor mods still only take up 1 slot
2) When I select Knuckle Bombs, I may "upgrade" Smashing Blows automatically, making my armor mods now take up 2 slots

As I understand it, the Armor Mod column on the class table is really "Armor Mods Known". Additionally, I interpret the rules as #1 in my examples. My Mods Known still has Smash. Blows, and learning K. Bombs counts against my Mods Known, but NOT against my armor slots due to the fact that I'm just making the item better.

The example above, you have Smashing Fists and you purchase Knuckle Bombs, it only takes one “slot” in the armor, but it takes two mods known to possess the knowledge of how to make and use them.

Construct Armor: I wonder, in regards to the Strength of the armor, couldn't it provide a few points to the user. Aka, "...if the character has the same Strength or higher, he gains a +2 to his Strength as the armor assists..."
Precedence in modern science exists. Also, precedence in the moveis exist. If the Strength score was purely based on the armor, then Tony would never be "straining" in his many Strength checks. Actually.... the more i think about it, the Construct Armor should probably just give a flat +8 or something similar to the character. And a flat +4 Dex. I don't know... I'm conflicted. Talk me through this please someone hahah

I suppose, yeah the +2 to Strength isn't a bad idea there, or maybe a +6 bonus to Strength and a +2 bonus to Dexterity. I think 8 and 4 is too much, especially with the other mods you can put in for enhanced strength and Modular armor. I'll consider it.

I originally made the construct armor as its own stats because of something similar I had seen, Clockwork Armor I believe, that did just “use these stats in place of yours”. Anyone else want to weigh on the stats of Construct Armor?

-X

[zhdarkstar]

I could see giving the user an untyped bonus if they didn't dump Str/Dex. However, the main thing to consider is that Construct Armor is the cure for MAD for this class. Those who choose to dump Str/Dex made that choice knowing they would have to somehow survive getting to 8th level, which is really only going to happen in games that go in the teens.

Also, Tony Stark was never a physically formidable person on his own until he had Cap train him. If you look at the original comics, you'll see that pretty much the only things of Tony's that saved his life were his Constitution and Intelligence. Prior to the aforementioned training, he pretty much relied on the suit to provide him with Strength and Dexterity. All he really had to do was move his limbs and the armor did the rest.

The problem with changing to the stat bonus mechanic is that it opens a Pandora's Box of Iron Men with Str somewhere in the mid-to-high 20's by 8th level via Construct Armor alone. To achieve that currently, you also have to dedicate an armor mod slot to Augment Strength, which effectively caps Strength at 24, as it's unlikely the player will have a 24 Str without armor. However, I do think that either Extremis Armor needs to get more than +2 Dex or add an Augment Dexterity mod. It doesn't need to be as big of a flat enhancement as Augment Strength. Drop it to +2/+4 Dex and keep the augment portion, as a free action for actions during your turn and an immediate action if used to boost AC against an attack. You could even make Defensive Matrix a requirement (as it's not a mod affected by any current archetype, even Scrap Smiths can get Jump Jets) if you're worried about there not being enough of a tax to get the ability.

[Deviston]

I don't get the reference to “tin coffins”. Also, I don't make the assumption that someone will have access to Ultimate Equipment, I do, however, understand you're likely to have access to the core rules. If your DM allows it, that's fine, but it's easier to make the assumption you have the minimal books necessary and go from there.

Tin coffins simply refer to the fact that your elected armors are almost all body covering, like the Iron Man suit from movie/comic.

Just like the text says, 10 minutes for install time. UMD time or multiclass as a spellcaster as far as wand activation. Wands installed ignore whatever they've got for remaining charges and instead use battery power.

Don’t mean to be a stickler, well… I guess I do lol since I’m going to be playing your class here in a few days I needed gray areas ironed out. Anyhow, As far as wands go, your entry states that “Wonderous Items” may be installed at the cost of 10 minutes, but a wand is not a wonderous item and the sentence with wands didn’t state “installed like wonderous items” so my DM found that vague and in need of clarification. Now we know :) Also, what happens if battery is empty? Do they THEN use their own charge? Or, since installed, still do nothing?

Mods can't be used while the armor isn't being worn, so no. Or I'm missing the point?

Uh… Yeah I totally dropped the ball on that one. I was trying to imagine Tony’s skill from Iron Man 3 that….

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allowed him to command his armor on to him with hand gestures

But I see that is covered in later mods.

First off, Smashing Fists gains an enhancement bonus equal to the Suit's enhancement bonus. Magical augmentation such as flaming is not supported or would require a custom armor modification. Secondly, Smashing Blows does not do that because gauntlets that come with armor do not give you this function, and this is an upgrade on those gauntlets. You could in theory pay the cost of spikes for your armor and your unarmed strikes could be B/P then for damage, not a bad plan all in all, as spikes are enchanted separately and would allow you to bypass the rule of no-enhancements such as flaming. Thirdly, with Powerful Build, you'd be one size bigger for those purposes; everything in this class is designed with a Small to Medium-sized creature in mind. Adjust accordingly for larger or smaller.

So Smashing Fists is NOT an unarmed attack, it is in fact a gauntlet. Cool. And even though they are a part of the armor (forging the spike into the gauntlets) they circumvent the enchantment restriction? Super sweet.

Not a bad idea, honestly. Or improve those if you have them, or grant something like it if you don't. I'll think on that and likely add it in.

Yeah I figured that it would enhance what you have, not grant something new.

Just because it's not class doesn't make it relevant. I don't see Iron Men tumbling around, but since Acrobatics is more inclusive than in 3.5, you gotta do what you gotta do. This is a reflexive/passive boost, not a replacement for skill ranks and a basis for flight repulsors. I do like your idea of it removing those restrictions though.

I guess you’re right, some is better than none and it’s not his specialty. Fair nuff.

No, it's a shield bonus as stated, but it also works on incorporeal attacks along the same vein as spells like mage armor do. And as it is a shield bonus, it would stack with deflection bonuses to AC just like any other shield bonus would, but this one specifically will help against incorporeal attacks, unlike a more basic heavy shield, but won't help where you otherwise wouldn't get a shield bonus to AC (such as flat-footed).

When used with the Iron Titan, does he lose his shield bonus to AC when shield bashing? Because, that’s normally how shield bashing works. I mean, common sense says he doesn’t, but the DM wants to know your take. I said to him, “just rule zero that shtuff” and his response was “what if the shield flickers from the force of the blow just for that round, just ask the OP”

I suppose, yeah the +2 to Strength isn't a bad idea there, or maybe a +6 bonus to Strength and a +2 bonus to Dexterity. I think 8 and 4 is too much, especially with the other mods you can put in for enhanced strength and Modular armor. I'll consider it.
I originally made the construct armor as its own stats because of something similar I had seen, Clockwork Armor I believe, that did just “use these stats in place of yours”. Anyone else want to weigh on the stats of Construct Armor?

How about leave the stats but add this in “if your strength or Dex score are higher than the construct armor’s, then you gain a +2 to your score as the armor assists”. That way SOME bennies are gained, but it’s not too over powering.


In the end, you answered many of my questions and I greatly appreciated it. Thanks a million and today, I make my ghoran (natural forger) (iron titan) iron man!

[Deviston]

Uh oh, i think I found an unintentional feature. The 4 wand sheaths (in combination with their ability to use battery instead of charges, having crafted/buying 4th level spells wands with only 1 charge each) allows for some major craziness. The most expensive wand (4th level ranger wands) only cost 600gp for a single charge. However, since you drain battery, this allows you to use that wand (with a simple DC 20 UMD check) a number of times per day equal to your battery.

I made a 3rd level with 16 Inelligence Iron Man which gives me 12 battery. This essentially gives the player 7,200 gp worth of free casting a day, not to mention the free (possible) full plate, with +1 magical enhancement and other stuff. With the Wealth By Level stating a 3rd level character should have 3,000 gp, this ends up being far too much "free stuff" as I see it.
If we look at the 3.5 Warforged wand sheath and pricing, you essentially get four of these items for free. A wand sheath in 3.5 only holds 1 wand and you can only put on on each arm. Which means the other two are slotless (double price). This ends up being about 24,000 gp (4000, 4000, 8000, and 8000).

In total, we are looking at 26,650 gp of free gear and an additional 7,200 gp worth of "gear" (aka spell casting from ANY class) each day for a 3rd level character. Much more if one takes Knuckle Bombs (free +1 gauntlet of collision aka a +3 weapon) that can't be disarmed.

I assume this wasn't intended, but what would a good fix be?

[zhdarkstar]

Uh oh, i think I found an unintentional feature. The 4 wand sheaths (in combination with their ability to use battery instead of charges, having crafted/buying 4th level spells wands with only 1 charge each) allows for some major craziness. The most expensive wand (4th level ranger wands) only cost 600gp for a single charge. However, since you drain battery, this allows you to use that wand (with a simple DC 20 UMD check) a number of times per day equal to your battery.

I made a 3rd level with 16 Inelligence Iron Man which gives me 12 battery. This essentially gives the player 7,200 gp worth of free casting a day, not to mention the free (possible) full plate, with +1 magical enhancement and other stuff. With the Wealth By Level stating a 3rd level character should have 3,000 gp, this ends up being far too much "free stuff" as I see it.
If we look at the 3.5 Warforged wand sheath and pricing, you essentially get four of these items for free. A wand sheath in 3.5 only holds 1 wand and you can only put on on each arm. Which means the other two are slotless (double price). This ends up being about 24,000 gp (4000, 4000, 8000, and 8000).

In total, we are looking at 26,650 gp of free gear and an additional 7,200 gp worth of "gear" (aka spell casting from ANY class) each day for a 3rd level character. Much more if one takes Knuckle Bombs (free +1 gauntlet of collision aka a +3 weapon) that can't be disarmed.

I assume this wasn't intended, but what would a good fix be?

I thought that Battery-powered wands were a little overpowered, even for just a single wand. They should really just operate like the Warforged wand sheaths: one per arm, uses it own charges, wands can't be removed until empty.

[Deviston]

Well, I didn't even think about it until I realized single charge wands become infinite use. I don't know, sometimes these little things jump out at me, and sometimes it only comes up in character creation :p

[zhdarkstar]

Well, I didn't even think about it until I realized single charge wands become infinite use. I don't know, sometimes these little things jump out at me, and sometimes it only comes up in character creation :p

Oh I know how that goes. I didn't mean for the Adaptation section of Mecha Senshi to be ginormous. However, once I added epic play into the equation, a whole world of class feature conflicts starting popping up and I had to put on my judge's wig.

[druidor]

I think the intention is that you are allowed to use battery charges in place of wand charge, not that you buy cheap wands, so what if it only counts for wands with full charge? Or maybe it's a dedicated pseudo wand item which costs the equivalent of a fully charged wand, sells for 25%, and in exchange calculates saves based on your Il, the problem is without wands this guy is really quite weak

[Deviston]

As far as I know, there is no way to determine how many charges a wands has. That being said, unless you have a party member (aka someone you know won't bone you) create it, there is no way to know if the wand you have has full charges until you test it out. Say you payed full price for wand X and it wasn't fully charged, you can't very well prove it.

"Well Mr. Magister, leader of town guards, I KNOW I was ripped off because the wand doesn't work when I stick it in my arm!"

He looks at you with a glare, and commits you to the local asylum.

[druidor]

This is why I think wondrous items which aren't spell trigger are the best way to handle it; they'd cost the same to create as a wand and sell for 25%. Even better, how about the ability to integrate a single stave? They even use multiple charges for stronger spells and you can have a caster charge it before integration. Also because you are trying to integrate the stave with armor you would presumably have to modify it somehow, requiring a craft check and rendering it unusable as a normal stave, and cutting the sale price to 25%.

[Tacitus]

As far as I know, there is no way to determine how many charges a wands has.

Identify the wand.

[zhdarkstar]

As far as I know, there is no way to determine how many charges a wands has.

According to both 3.5 and PF, a Spellcraft check with a high DC would cover it.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/spellcraft

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Spellcraft_Skill

I think the intention is that you are allowed to use battery charges in place of wand charge, not that you buy cheap wands, so what if it only counts for wands with full charge? Or maybe it's a dedicated pseudo wand item which costs the equivalent of a fully charged wand, sells for 25%, and in exchange calculates saves based on your Il, the problem is without wands this guy is really quite weak

Repulsor damage that caps out at 10d6 that can be also be used as a melee weapon or stacked on top of your size-enhanced unarmed strike damage? Being able to dump Str/Dex at creation and still end up with 24/14 at level 8? Having so many guns that you are a walking ballista? At level 20, you can end up with 36 Str in modular armor without having to spend a single ability stat increase or wondrous item to boost your Str, all while swinging Huge knuckle bombs for 3d6 + 23 + 10d6 repulsor damage, 36-101 damage on a single hit.

I found so many ways that this guy is strong before even seeing the part about wands. That's merely icing on the cake.

[druidor]

Thing is though, that's all raw damage starting at around level 7. At early levels he doesn't have the control capabilities a warlock does, and fairly low damage to boot, the wands tide him over until he can start really laying on the damage.

[ErrantX]

Hey everyone,

I will be addressing the prior stuff here today from the author's perspective, and honestly, with everything this class is generating (and it's AWESOME, I love you guys!), I may move it to a new thread because I honestly think that with all the suggestions, bug fixes, etc I need a 2nd or even 3rd post, and I didn't have the foresight when posting this initially to do so (the OP is actually full on character count).

-X

[zhdarkstar]

Hey everyone,

I will be addressing the prior stuff here today from the author's perspective, and honestly, with everything this class is generating (and it's AWESOME, I love you guys!), I may move it to a new thread because I honestly think that with all the suggestions, bug fixes, etc I need a 2nd or even 3rd post, and I didn't have the foresight when posting this initially to do so (the OP is actually full on character count).

-X

I don't blame you for wanting a new thread. This class has seen a big pop of new thoughts and material in just a short while. Let me know when it's up so I can change my link to War Machine in my sig.

[ErrantX]

Uh oh, i think I found an unintentional feature. The 4 wand sheaths (in combination with their ability to use battery instead of charges, having crafted/buying 4th level spells wands with only 1 charge each) allows for some major craziness. The most expensive wand (4th level ranger wands) only cost 600gp for a single charge. However, since you drain battery, this allows you to use that wand (with a simple DC 20 UMD check) a number of times per day equal to your battery.

I made a 3rd level with 16 Inelligence Iron Man which gives me 12 battery. This essentially gives the player 7,200 gp worth of free casting a day, not to mention the free (possible) full plate, with +1 magical enhancement and other stuff. With the Wealth By Level stating a 3rd level character should have 3,000 gp, this ends up being far too much "free stuff" as I see it.
If we look at the 3.5 Warforged wand sheath and pricing, you essentially get four of these items for free. A wand sheath in 3.5 only holds 1 wand and you can only put on on each arm. Which means the other two are slotless (double price). This ends up being about 24,000 gp (4000, 4000, 8000, and 8000).

In total, we are looking at 26,650 gp of free gear and an additional 7,200 gp worth of "gear" (aka spell casting from ANY class) each day for a 3rd level character. Much more if one takes Knuckle Bombs (free +1 gauntlet of collision aka a +3 weapon) that can't be disarmed.

I assume this wasn't intended, but what would a good fix be?

I thought that Battery-powered wands were a little overpowered, even for just a single wand. They should really just operate like the Warforged wand sheaths: one per arm, uses it own charges, wands can't be removed until empty.

Well, I didn't even think about it until I realized single charge wands become infinite use. I don't know, sometimes these little things jump out at me, and sometimes it only comes up in character creation :p

I think the intention is that you are allowed to use battery charges in place of wand charge, not that you buy cheap wands, so what if it only counts for wands with full charge? Or maybe it's a dedicated pseudo wand item which costs the equivalent of a fully charged wand, sells for 25%, and in exchange calculates saves based on your Il, the problem is without wands this guy is really quite weak

Well, firstly, this makes an assumption that you can legally craft wands with 1 charge, which you cannot do. Assuming you purchased one or had one lying around, then this is valid for sure. Personally, I don't think much of wand sheathes because they don't exist in PF. At that point, they're a class feature and not really relevant to the math here.

In converting it to 3.5, then definitely yes, this is a TON of free gear, and in that situation I would say that you can embed warforged components to the suits but they of course would have to be bought and paid for. I'd also restrain from counting the armor mods towards the math here as well, as those are class features in any system.

I think in this case, one wand per arm wouldn't be a bad restriction. I was basically intending that you'd have to kinda... build the wand into the armor and have it be like any of the millions of tricks Tony Stark has come up with, honestly, but maybe just saying you can slot a wand in and it uses charges normally. Hrm. Maybe I'll just say you can take an existent wand and fuse it to the armor, using its charges until its depleted but you can't unslot it once it's been fused.

*snip*

Repulsor damage that caps out at 10d6 that can be also be used as a melee weapon or stacked on top of your size-enhanced unarmed strike damage? Being able to dump Str/Dex at creation and still end up with 24/14 at level 8? Having so many guns that you are a walking ballista? At level 20, you can end up with 36 Str in modular armor without having to spend a single ability stat increase or wondrous item to boost your Str, all while swinging Huge knuckle bombs for 3d6 + 23 + 10d6 repulsor damage, 36-101 damage on a single hit.

I found so many ways that this guy is strong before even seeing the part about wands. That's merely icing on the cake.

Thing is though, that's all raw damage starting at around level 7. At early levels he doesn't have the control capabilities a warlock does, and fairly low damage to boot, the wands tide him over until he can start really laying on the damage.

Iron Men do get a bit silly at higher levels, don't they? I think I need to find a way to penalize the Modular Armor a little more other than the fatigue, because you shouldn't be living in the stuff. The idea of it was to be, well, HULKBUSTER, but at the same time, I need to compare it to what fighters and barbarians are doing with their lives a little more at that level. Granted, they're supposed to higher tier than they are, like Tier 2 or 3 due to their versatility and potency, so there is that too.

---

Updates are forthcoming.

-X

[druidor]

I'd say they get less crazy than your other invoking based classes actually; they're a bit harder to kill but way easier to disable than the ebon knight, and way less versatile than them; the modular armor is quite strong, but only in conjunction with the fists and that mode needs to be in melee to do much of anything, and burns through batteries like nothing. Would a potential fix be say weakening repulsors while using it?

[Deviston]

Yes wand sheaths aren't in Pathfinder. The item itself is still priced accordingly and if one WAS to price it out the price would be about the same as the affore mentioned component. For example, the feather token tree was 400 in 3.5, and in Pathfinder it is the same price. This (and the rest of the mirrored gear) is precedence. So while the item TECHNICALLY doesn't exist in Pathfinder, I feel like for someone to ignore this obvious precedence would be... fool hardy at best.
Simple fix would be to make it statistically the exact same as wand sheaths from 3.5 but with the stipulation that you can only put in a wand that a "Caster X" of equivalent level could cast the spell. Aka, at level 1-2 you could only have 1st level spells, level 3-4 only 2nd and so forth. An even better balancing feature would be to make it you class level -3 is your effective "Caster X class levels" and make the feature gained at level 4 with the wand limitations being one per arm of course.

What makes this class so strong in my eyes, is the ability to have your armor take damage instead of yourself in combination with the "bonus 30 hp" armor mod. You effectively get a "free man" on a daily basis. Repairing the armor is insanely easy as well. At level 10 with Skill Focus and a 10,000 gp +10 to craft magic item you have a +29 before adding Int. Adding the Prodigy feat gives us another +4 and I won't even look into Traits. Let's say +3 Int makes it a 36 plus (average) 10 roll give us 46 for 4d8+3 every hour of repair work. Average of 19 hp an hour. You don't have to do this consecutively either. Adding in the "Wand of Repair X Damage" and blowing the last of your battery for the day should have your free man sitting at full hp every single day.

I love the class. I and my DM simply find it too strong in it's current iteration.

[Magnet Tech]

I think this was brought up before, but how precisely would this work for Warforged? Would the armour be immune to sundering due to it being part of the Warforged? Would you have to house-rule rules for sundering its chassis?

[druidor]

How about just the one sheath, and it does use battery charge but takes 10 mins to change the wand, and it uses battery charges equal to the floor of 1.5*the spell level (1,3,4,6); extended use of the wand would burn through charge starting at second level spells, but it represents a gizmo stark prepped in advance

[ErrantX]

Moving everything over to the new thread where I have everything expanded out, so I have some actual character count to be able to add or modify things.

Check it out. I'll be making changes there. All replies are going there. This is basically a dead thread.

-X