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2018-05-22, 03:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2018
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Industrial gemstone/diamond for spell materials
Got into a debate with one of my mate about using industrial Gems and Diamond for spell materials.
He believes that industrial grade jewelry should be unusable in spells due to lacking the "magical power" that natural gemstones have, that's needed for using them as material in the first place.
I believe that chemically, industrial grade and natural gemstones are no different to each other and should be usable for spell material. In fact, the natural gemstone would be even more unpure that they need so much amount in the first place.
His argument is actually quite interesting to me because my antagonist faction could mass produce industrial grade diamond to mass resurrect their fallen comrades.
What do you guys think?
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2018-05-22, 04:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2006
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- UK
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Re: Industrial gemstone/diamond for spell materials
You need a diamond worth x GP don't you? If so mass-producing drops the value, therefore you need more diamonds to resurrect people - so you get no advantage. In fact, it's a disadvantage, as someone where diamonds are rare can get away with a small stone to resurrect someone, whereas you need a wheelbarrow full of the mass-produced ones
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2018-05-22, 06:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2018
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- Australia
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2018-05-22, 07:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2013
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Re: Industrial gemstone/diamond for spell materials
It's a non-issue in my games because we think the way caden does: you need diamonds worth X amount, and the physical amount or origin is irrelevant.
Yes, we've thought about how if you use natural diamond in the quantities that a D&D games tend to suggest that they would quickly skyrocket in price, or how you could flood the market with cheap synthetic stuff or stuff mined on Paraelemental Mineral, and more, but it doesn't matter: you need a fixed GP value so that's what you have to pay.
Thankfully, my players are more concerned with playing the game rather than trying to find 'clever' work-arounds through magic or economics or whatever.
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2018-05-22, 07:18 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2014
Re: Industrial gemstone/diamond for spell materials
I'm kind of wondering what D&D setting you have where synthetic diamond is a material produced on a scale large enough for this question to be relevant.
I'd say that a particular DM is well within their rights to rule that chemical identity is not sufficient for magical power. Certainly it's not the case that the properties and composition of real-life diamond allow it to be expended for the purposes of resurrection. Whatever metaphysical laws work in your fantasy setting may well distinguish between origins in this matter.
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2018-05-22, 07:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2018
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- Australia
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2018-05-22, 09:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2014
Re: Industrial gemstone/diamond for spell materials
My apologies; I did not read your post well enough. If it's your game, it's very much your decision whether synthetic counts, so long as your ruling is consistent (though having some explanation for your decision would be nice).
I would avoid, however, playing too faithfully with the rules about diamond value being necessary, unless the forces of magic are extremely mercenary in your setting, as taking monetary value (which is necessarily relative) as an absolute measurement of gem suitability can lead to absurd conclusions.
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2018-05-22, 10:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2013
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- turkey
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Re: Industrial gemstone/diamond for spell materials
here is the more important problem with out proper tech or spells to identify the diamonds you can hit the jackpot by selling the industrial diamond to merchant then buy regular diamond thus effectively pull money laundering scheme and kill the parties chance to beat you by huge margin. as most parties gonna think they hit the jackpot when they find enough diamond to make resurrection no problem until cleric tries to cast the spell and fail several times. while you the big bad already cast it with no problem. thus each boss or lieutenant party kills can be easily resurrected by big bad while party needs higher and higher amount of diamond to do the same. as side affect of using industrial diamond in the spell your cleric might be fall from grace quite quickly thus no divine magic to party.
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2018-05-22, 11:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2017
Re: Industrial gemstone/diamond for spell materials
This was my thought as well.
Huh? Who's the "antagonist faction"? Though I guess it really doesn't matter.
We're talking "magic" here. It is well within a DM's purview as to if origins matter in magical components. It's a lot like the discussion of "soul". Sure, two items my be chemically or physically identical, but that doesn't mean that in a fantasy setting that the two items are identical. Their may well be 'magical' or non-tangible traits to one object that are missing from another.
Personally, I don't like to take science and my knowledge of technology and apply it to my role playing.
Whatever the ruling, the DM should just be consistent.
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2018-05-22, 12:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2007
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- San Antonio, Texas
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Re: Industrial gemstone/diamond for spell materials
A gem's value is determined by clarity, cut, color, and carat. Big but ugly is worth less than small and pretty. I don't see a problem with using industrial diamond in place of gem-quality, but you'll need a lot more.
The Cranky Gamer
*It isn't realism, it's verisimilitude; the appearance of truth within the framework of the game.
*Picard management tip: Debate honestly. The goal is to arrive at the truth, not at your preconception.
*Mutant Dawn for Savage Worlds!
*The One Deck Engine: Gaming on a budget
Written by Me on DriveThru RPG
There are almost 400,000 threads on this site. If you need me to address a thread as a moderator, include a link.
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2018-05-22, 01:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2010
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- Beyond the Ninth Wave
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Re: Industrial gemstone/diamond for spell materials
Originally Posted by KKL
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2018-05-22, 02:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2010
Re: Industrial gemstone/diamond for spell materials
It's all a scam anyway. "Color" used to mean less color was more valuable. Then they hit on the marketing gimmick of calling the yellow ones "champagne diamonds" to raise the price in spite of the color. Now they're even trying to pass off "chocolate diamonds" as a thing.
It probably won't be long before they're trying to sell the badly cut and heavily included diamonds as "raw, rugged, more natural" diamonds.
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2018-05-22, 03:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2007
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- San Antonio, Texas
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Re: Industrial gemstone/diamond for spell materials
I'll also note... there's a difference between "Industrial Grade" and "Manufactured" diamonds. Lots of natural industrial grade diamonds, especially before it was easy to make diamonds.
The Cranky Gamer
*It isn't realism, it's verisimilitude; the appearance of truth within the framework of the game.
*Picard management tip: Debate honestly. The goal is to arrive at the truth, not at your preconception.
*Mutant Dawn for Savage Worlds!
*The One Deck Engine: Gaming on a budget
Written by Me on DriveThru RPG
There are almost 400,000 threads on this site. If you need me to address a thread as a moderator, include a link.
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2018-05-22, 04:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2005
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- SW England
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Re: Industrial gemstone/diamond for spell materials
You probably need to come up with an explanation for how/why spells need gems.
Do gems have some esoteric quality, some sort of "spirit", that plays a role in the magic? If so, arteficial gems might lack that.
Do the gods require a certain sacrifice of wealth before the allow the spell to work? If so, then a spell that requires 5000gp of diamonds will still require 5000gp of diamons, even if you are using cheap diamonds.
Is it the physical properties of the gem that are important, in which case you may be able to get an arteficial gem that does the same job for less.
Or maybe arteficial gems can be used in spells, but they need to be made in a particular way that makes them more expensive than "standard" arteficial gems. Or you could have arteficial gems made by the Noldor, which work better than natural ones, and are consequently more expensive rather than less.
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2018-05-22, 10:51 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2013
Re: Industrial gemstone/diamond for spell materials
Gems need to be worth x GP, if your diamond is worth x GP, then it's OK by RAW whether or not it's an industrial diamond.
A GM can of course make up their own house rules regarding this.
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2018-05-23, 12:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2014
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- Denmark
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Re: Industrial gemstone/diamond for spell materials
Well - you're obviously trying to cheese it. Which is fine, if your GM allows it.
Industrial grade diamonds are way cheaper than those dug out of the earth - and not only because of the effort involved. There is also less romantic notion involved in industrial production - which, admittedly, is odd considering how diamonds are mined. But still, the mind attaches some sort of value to the fact that 'this tiny, shiny stone was buried underground for millions of years'.
What you sacrifice when you spend the stone for casting a spell isn't the gp value - it's the emotional value. It's the value assigned by sentients everywhere. And lets be honest, everyone hates industrial diamonds for anything other than drilling and polishing.
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2018-05-23, 12:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2008
Re: Industrial gemstone/diamond for spell materials
I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.
I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that. -- ChubbyRain
Current Design Project: Legacy, a game of masters and apprentices for two players and a GM.
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2018-05-23, 08:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2014
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Re: Industrial gemstone/diamond for spell materials
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2018-05-23, 08:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
Re: Industrial gemstone/diamond for spell materials
A piece of glass cut into exactly the same shape as a typical "brilliant cut" diamond, is not going to sparkle as much.
Worn as part of jewelry that suffers a lot of wear and tear (rings, for example) it's more likely to suffer chips, worn facet edges, etc.
Zircon is preferred as a diamond substitute over glass, for both these reasons - more sparkle, and harder.Last edited by hamishspence; 2018-05-23 at 08:17 AM.
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2018-05-23, 09:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2014
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- Denmark
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Re: Industrial gemstone/diamond for spell materials
I feel like you're taking this way more seriously than I am. In some distant and unimaginable future, carbon will be compressed in artificial black holes into diamonds of a quality and rareness unachieable by other means, and the price of such a thing will be extortionate even for the percentile of a percentile of a percentile that owns half the galaxy - and it'll be no less silly.
But yes, I'm well aware that glass isn't really the same as diamonds.
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2018-05-23, 06:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2008
Re: Industrial gemstone/diamond for spell materials
That they're the hardest known chemical material* is enough to make them interesting on their own. So is some of the cool chemistry going on, starting with how covalently bonded crystalline macromolecules aren't exactly common, and continuing into how carbon bonding is just an interesting subject.
As for being a pretty rock, I suppose the combination of hardness and a really high refractive index is interesting enough. That said, moissanite is even sparklier, and while it's not quite as hard it's not like Moh's 9.5 is in any way too soft for basically any decorative purpose. Synthetic moissanite in particular can look good, though the nomenclature there gets weird.
*I just don't want to get into neutronium hardness here, hence that caveat. Hardest known material is arguable.I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.
I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that. -- ChubbyRain
Current Design Project: Legacy, a game of masters and apprentices for two players and a GM.
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2018-05-23, 08:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2016
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Re: Industrial gemstone/diamond for spell materials
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2018-05-23, 11:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2014
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2018-05-24, 01:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2016
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Re: Industrial gemstone/diamond for spell materials
i think they should work.
my idea of why gemstones are needed for spells is that they reflect the mana in themselves and amplify it, just like they do with light.
(thats why they sparkle, no?)
though, that does rise the possibility that someone builds a mirror house or something with that kind of set up, but i dont know how big that would be...
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2018-05-24, 12:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2010
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2018-05-24, 02:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2014
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Re: Industrial gemstone/diamond for spell materials
Funny, because ... in my homebrew world, earth elementals have a heart of stone. If you have one, you can use it to summon more powerful elementals (as if having the Improved Summoning feat). But elemental princes have a heart of gold - find one of those, and a summoned elemental will remain indefinetely.
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2018-05-24, 07:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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2018-05-24, 09:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2010
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Re: Industrial gemstone/diamond for spell materials
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2018-05-25, 12:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2016
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2018-05-25, 02:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2010
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