How would you, as a religious cleric, write your thesis?

[Goblin_Priest]

Redcloak is a primary spellcaster cleric, he is zero focused in melee. Durkon is the opposite. O-Chul managed to overpower him naked and with nothing but an improvised weapon, by catching him by surprise*. A Durkon backed by the rest of the Order would be able to overpower him easily.

Of course the scenario of "the Order destroys Xykon then overpowers Redcloak and forces him to listen" doesn't makes for a great story (the one that would is Durkon's proposal driving a wedge in the already measly alliance between Redcloak and Xykon). But if we are discussing what would hypotetically be Durkon's best scenario, in my oppinion this one is it. Specially taking into considetation that, from the Order's perspective, Redcloak is nothing but Xykon's subdued lackey (see the fight at the dream sequence).

* By the way, it is interesting that Redcloak is now drawn wearing heavy armor, until now he had been wearking just a robe. Perhaps after the affair with O-Chul he has decided to invest more in physical protection.

Redcloak probably dumped str. Plus, goblins get: -2 Strength, +2 Dexterity, -2 Charisma.

His con and dex might not be all that fantastic either. Heck, aside from having the minimum wisdom for casting lvl 9 spells, we don't have any other indications of particularly high stats in any ability. Perhaps above average intelligence, but that could be 14 for all we know.

[Emanick]

Redcloak probably dumped str. Plus, goblins get: -2 Strength, +2 Dexterity, -2 Charisma.

His con and dex might not be all that fantastic either. Heck, aside from having the minimum wisdom for casting lvl 9 spells, we don't have any other indications of particularly high stats in any ability. Perhaps above average intelligence, but that could be 14 for all we know.

Goblins may not have a Strength penalty in the OOTSverse. In 3.5, most Small races have Strength penalties, and goblins are Small, so they wind up weaker than humans on average. However, a Medium-sized goblin lacks that reason for having a Strength penalty.

For that matter, OOTSverse goblins may lack a Dexterity bonus, too, as higher Dexterity is often coupled with smaller size.

[understatement]

He's able to lift/push the MITD in the box onto some kind of wagon (can't remember) during the circus escape.

His INT should be equal or higher than Xykon's. From the way he plans out stuff, I'm getting the vibe of being at least as smart as Haley or Roy.

He tanks a fair amount of punishment in Azure City throne room.

I'm guessing he dumped Dex.

[Wizard_Lizard]

He might have above average CHA too.

[Riftwolf]

He might not have a dump stat; certain characters have across-the-board average/above average stats with some stats higher than those (Roy, Miko, probably Tarquin). Oots doesn't run by a points buy system; it's probably luck of the dice, and some players get much better stats than others (hooray for inequality!)
Redcloak might have average stats across the board, an 18/19 in wisdom, and still suck in melee. Not because of any deficiency in his character sheet, but because of his character. He relies on his divine powers rather than physical exertion. I mean, he doesn't even carry a weapon...

[CriticalFailure]

I kind of got the impression that Redcloak's physical stats were all average/mediocre/dump (probably strength dump) and his mental stats were all pretty good, with wisdom obviously being much better than all other stats as he casts from that. To me he seems to display above average charisma and intelligence (particularly intelligence) and his general abilities in the comic center around intelligent strategy, leadership, and using his own/Team Evil's knowledge to maximum effect. To be fair, hobgoblin society appears to be pretty obedient, but I still think leadership comes into play. Whereas he doesn't display any indication of any of his physical stats being particularly noteworthy.

[Wizard_Lizard]

I kind of got the impression that Redcloak's physical stats were all average/mediocre/dump (probably strength dump) and his mental stats were all pretty good, with wisdom obviously being much better than all other stats as he casts from that. To me he seems to display above average charisma and intelligence (particularly intelligence) and his general abilities in the comic center around intelligent strategy, leadership, and using his own/Team Evil's knowledge to maximum effect. To be fair, hobgoblin society appears to be pretty obedient, but I still think leadership comes into play. Whereas he doesn't display any indication of any of his physical stats being particularly noteworthy.

He managed to convince a whole bunch of hobgoblins to walk into certain death. Pretty hgh charisma.

[Kish]

You don't need an epic-level Diplomacy roll to get people to Fanatic if they're already fanatical.

[Gluteus_Maximus]

You don't need an epic-level Diplomacy roll to get people to Fanatic if they're already fanatical.

...Unless they're fanatical of not being a fanatic of he who doesn't think he needs epic-level Diplomacy rolls?

[KorvinStarmast]

In less than 25 words

Redcloak. I have your niece. Meet at Kraagor's gate. She walks free if you discuss our future in good faith.

[understatement]

In less than 25 words

Redcloak. I have your niece. Meet at Kraagor's gate. She walks free if you discuss our future in good faith.

Too bad they can't force her to cast a scroll to contact him to prove they've got her alive. She's like the Martha of the OOTSverse.

-

On a side note, I think RC's charisma is most apparent in his speech in founding Gobbotopia -- it's in the same vein as the pre-battle speeches Elan dishes out or the Godsmoot plea Roy gives, in that it does require some persuasive/forceful personality to say that in front of strangers. I don't think it's something V or Durkon could pull off (unless the circumstance warranted it).

[Peelee]

In less than 25 words

Redcloak. I have your niece. Meet at Kraagor's gate. She walks free if you discuss our future in good faith.

Too bad they can't force her to cast a scroll to contact him to prove they've got her alive.

Redcloak's reply: "You know Scrying is just 5th level, right? Short version, no you don't. Long version, no you don't and also I'm going to kill you."

[Fyraltari]

In less than 25 words

Redcloak. I have your niece. Meet at Kraagor's gate. She walks free if you discuss our future in good faith.

Spoiler: SoD

Show

Why would Recloak care more for her than he cared for her father?

[understatement]

Well, he did b*tchslap a paladin's face to bloody chunks when his brother was threatened. Granted, that was way before he became a true villain, but if Xykon doesn't know about it (and shouldn't, since only RC can see the sending) and it doesn't interfere with the Plan...I mean, one of the many reasons he wages war on Azure City was for his mom.

edit: spelling

[The Pilgrim]

In less than 25 words

Redcloak. I have your niece. Meet at Kraagor's gate. She walks free if you discuss our future in good faith.

I like how you think.

[Emanick]

Spoiler: SoD

Show

Why would Recloak care more for her than he cared for her father?

Spoiler

Show

He wouldn’t, but the situations aren’t strictly comparable, because Redcloak doesn’t necessarily give up anything by agreeing to meet Durkon. It’s a risk, but not a risk on the level of betraying Xykon.

Which is not to say that I endorse the plan of taking a hostage just to get Redcloak to meet. It seems like a great way to make him more hostile without necessarily gaining much of anything.

[Peelee]

Spoiler

Show

He wouldn’t, but the situations aren’t strictly comparable, because Redcloak doesn’t necessarily give up anything by agreeing to meet Durkon. It’s a risk, but not a risk on the level of betraying Xykon.

Which is not to say that I endorse the plan of taking a hostage just to get Redcloak to meet. It seems like a great way to make him more hostile without necessarily gaining much of anything.

Spoiler

Show

In the same way The Dark One didn't necessarily give up anything by agreeing to meet with the human kings, of course.

[Emanick]

Spoiler

Show

In the same way The Dark One didn't necessarily give up anything by agreeing to meet with the human kings, of course.

Sure. And we are talking about the goblin cleric who believes that “stupid risks are just that - stupid.”

So you have to give him a reason why the risk is worth taking. I think he would be willing to take what he perceives as a reasonable risk to protect That Person (too lazy to bother with spoiler tags, though apparently industrious enough to type out this parenthetical), but I’m sure that, if he did, he would take every precaution in case of betrayal.

That said, as I alluded to earlier, I disagree that the reason you give necessarily has to be one that he would perceive as inflammatory. If you can give Redcloak an actual reason why his ultimate goals will be furthered by meeting with you - and, if you’re Durkon, you can - why wouldn’t you?

[The_Weirdo]

I am bemused that the Pilgrim is pushing "forget the whole diplomacy thing, just beat the greenskin into submission or death" so hard.

There are lots of people on this forum I would have expected that from, but not previously him.

Don't look at me, Redcloak never mistreated Durkon personally and/or in a context in which he could not react. Also I know Redcloak is much more powerful than Durkon. Also I understand Redcloak's point of view. In short, I have standards and, in this case, mine are not met.

[Vinyadan]

Hi Redcloak! Blackmail speaking. TDO plan fail; gods about unmake current world as myriad before. Thor stop this, if TDO helps. Gonna be worth it!

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Hi Redcloak! Blackmail speaking. TDO plan fail; gods about unmake current world as myriad before. Thor stop this, if TDO helps. Gonna be worth it!

It took me three reads to understand that Blackmail is a reference to their chainmail being black. I kept looking for the "do what I say or threat" section of the blackmailing.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

It took me three reads to understand that Blackmail is a reference to their chainmail being black. I kept looking for the "do what I say or threat" section of the blackmailing.

Grey Wolf

It took until I read your comment, and even then I'm confused. Are LG dwarf clericstudents of Thor stereotypically clad in blackened chainmail?

[KorvinStarmast]

Which is not to say that I endorse the plan of taking a hostage just to get Redcloak to meet. It seems like a great way to make him more hostile without necessarily gaining much of anything.

Who said that Durkon has to actually take a hostage? The point is the message, and to get Red Cloak's attention such that they meet.

Hi Redcloak! Blackmail speaking. TDO plan fail; gods about to unmake current world. Thor stops this if TDO helps. Worth it; let's talk details

I like where you went with this. Hope you like the edit. :

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Who said that Durkon has to actually take a hostage? The point is the message, and to get Red Cloak's attention such that they meet.
I like where you went with this. Hope you like the edit. :

My problem with this is that in RC's mind, that is still a win for TDO, since it is supposed to give him a seat at the table of the creation of the next world. The crucial information that the TDO will starve before that happens needs to be included, or RC will just go "oh, good, the Plan is working".

(This does assume that this hypothetical cleric has access to knowledge from both RC's plan and Thor's at the same time, something no-one in OotS currently has, to the best of my recollection)

Grey Wolf

[KorvinStarmast]

The crucial information that the TDO will starve before that happens needs to be included, or RC will just go "oh, good, the Plan is working".

Good point, it needs a slight word smithing to fold in your concern.

@Vinydan: care to try a second draft?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Good point, it needs a slight word smithing to fold in your concern.

@Vinydan: care to try a second draft?

Errr... you quoted me but put Vinydan as the author

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

Because I somehow missed this reply...

Dwarves are practical people. A proper dwarf shouldn't waste resources in a sending spell for an enemy unless he makes damn sure the receiver is going to Listen.

A.) If your hammer is in Redcloak's mouth already, then casting a Sending is already a waste of resources because Redcloak is, by definition, within "I'm holding my hammer in his mouth" distance.
2.) The dwarf in question either knows Xykon's phylactery is held by Redcloak (latest knowledge from Niu), or has no idea where the phylactery is. In either case, it is one hell of a poor bluff.

[The Pilgrim]

Who said that Durkon has to actually take a hostage? The point is the message, and to get Red Cloak's attention such that they meet.
I like where you went with this. Hope you like the edit. :

Even better if you make The Person send the message. Said person probably grew up among humans, so should be easier to convince to collaborate than Redcloak.

A.) If your hammer is in Redcloak's mouth already, then casting a Sending is already a waste of resources because Redcloak is, by definition, within "I'm holding my hammer in his mouth" distance.

It's only a waste of resources according to your twisted human undisciplined viewpoint. Dwarves are disciplined, honor-bound people. If contacting Redcloak via a Sending is the honorable thing to do, a Dwarf will do it and it will not be a waste of resources in any way.

2.) The dwarf in question either knows Xykon's phylactery is held by Redcloak (latest knowledge from Niu), or has no idea where the phylactery is. In either case, it is one hell of a poor bluff.

So, you are saying that having destroyed an Epic-Level Sorcerer Lich is a poor bluff that you can do the same to a non-epic Goblin Cleric. If Redcloak is holding the Phylactery, all the better, then he knows Xykon has been destroyed. In case he missed the ka-boom during the battle which ended with your hammer in his mouth.

[KorvinStarmast]

Errr... you quoted me but put Vinydan as the author

Grey Wolf

Fixed. Gaah, some days, my multiquoting is all over the place like a one year old's spaghetti.

[Vinyadan]

OK, let's make another try (starting from Korvin's version).

Redcloak! Blackmail speaking. TDO plan fail; gods boutta unmake world; TDO too young, no survive. Thor stops this if TDO helps. Worth talk details!


"Blackmail" was a joke about Redcloak's name. Also, the first version I had thought had a more violent approach (Thor WILL kill TDO if he doesn't help him, so it treated it more as an extortion).