Star Wars: The Skywalker Saga Movie Review

[Vinyadan]

Did you know that AT-AT have front lights? https://youtu.be/en8bh60K7m8?t=29

And that there is official art of naked Jar Jar?

[Forum Explorer]

You forget the part where he basically reads Cassian’s mind and divine that the guy is leaving to kill, not rescue.

That's not really hard to do though. Cassian was hardly subtle about his emotions in that scene.

[Bartmanhomer]

How is everybody liking my Star Wars movie reviews?

[Forum Explorer]

How is everybody liking my Star Wars movie reviews?

They're decent, and interesting. I find you to be a very generous reviewer, but there's nothing wrong with that. You enjoy Star Wars so you give it good reviews, even when I wouldn't.

[Bartmanhomer]

They're decent and interesting. I find you to be a very generous reviewer, but there's nothing wrong with that. You enjoy Star Wars so you give it good reviews, even when I wouldn't.

I do enjoy Star Wars and I do give honest reviews about it.

[jayem]

Regarding the reviews. I've enjoyed bits of the reviews, especially your clear enthusiasm. Other reviewers can draw out more though.

Did Han Solo have an awareness of the Force? I'm asking in all seriousness.

We know he didn't believe in it, so I think we can rule out a Chirrut style awareness.
But he is 'lucky', and is built up.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Considering the femtosecond or so timing he pulls off in movie 7, manually dropping out of light speed inside the shield, he's certainly got some form of magical/action hero/sci-fi writers have no sense of scale/plot powers. The simplest way to keep this making sense in universe is to say he's force sensitive, whether any writers secretly agree or not.

[Peelee]

Considering the femtosecond or so timing he pulls off in movie 7, manually dropping out of light speed inside the shield, he's certainly got some form of magical/action hero/sci-fi writers have no sense of scale/plot powers. The simplest way to keep this making sense in universe is to say he's force sensitive, whether any writers secretly agree or not.

Conversely, I think the simplest way to keep this making sense in the movie is to accept that he just can, like everyone else does before he even accomplished the feat, and chalk it all up to bad writing.

[Rodin]

It wouldn't have been boring, though. Luke's fight against Ben in TLJ is pure defense, not attacking, and that's one if the parts of the movie I think they did best. Pure defense can be riveting if done well, but it's easier to make flash flash laser sword go clash.

I picture the fight as being similar to Rock Lee v. Gaara. Yoda never moves faster than the 900 years old that we know him to be. Dooku sends lightning, Yoda raises a hand and casually blocks it. Dooku charges with a light saber, Yoda picks him up with the Force and tosses him through a wall. Dooku blocks the Force Push with his own powers, and while he's doing that Yoda hits him with an X-Wing.

They could even have had Yoda finish him off. It's not like they did much with Dooku later. Dooku was the small time villain, there's no need to let him escape just to kill him off 5 minutes into the sequel. Replace his scene in Revenge with General Grievous, who also had no impact on events.

Then we have the Palpatine v. Yoda fight. At this point we've actually established Yoda's ridiculous strength in the Force with the earlier fight. Except with Palpatine, it's different. We see Yoda's confidence and composure crack as Palpatine overpowers him in a direct power struggle. After Yoda gets zapped a bit with Force Lightning, then Palpatine picks up a Senate seat for a coup-de-grace. Only then do we see Yoda move fast - not by turning into Sonic the Hedgehog, but by yanking himself to one side with the Force. Yoda uses the Force to propel himself out of the Senate chamber and collapses the entrance behind him, slowing down Palpy enough to escape.

Then again, without the ridiculous movie version we don't get the "And then I threw the Senate at him" joke from Robot Chicken. It may be worth it just for that...

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Conversely, I think the simplest way to keep this making sense in the movie is to accept that he just can, like everyone else does before he even accomplished the feat, and chalk it all up to bad writing.

Well of course people accept that he can, they know he's a hell of a pilot. They just don't know what we know: that a pilot with no force sensitivity could never pull that off. Maybe Qui-Gon Jinn would have recognized the sign and grabbed his midichlorometer, but those days have long passed, the knowledge is forgotten. Solo is a combination of too young and too on the run from the law to have ever been properly diagnosed, so we can safely theorize he has some form of force capabilities.

That's the beauty of the Force. If a Fast and Furious movie pulls a silly move like that we have to call bull**** on the realism, in Star Wars we can just assume Force power.

[Vinyadan]

The idea of force-aided movement runs counter to Palpatine falling down a shaft to his death.

That doesn't mean that it's a wrong idea. Palpatine's inability to fly is something that always bothered me. It's why I didn't complain about Leia flying through open space. It flows naturally from telekinesis.

[Peelee]

Well of course people accept that he can, they know he's a hell of a pilot. They just don't know what we know: that a pilot with no force sensitivity could never pull that off.

Except we do know that. We know Han has no Force sensitivity, and we know Han pulled it off.

The idea of force-aided movement runs counter to Palpatine falling down a shaft to his death.

That doesn't mean that it's a wrong idea. Palpatine's inability to fly is something that always bothered me. It's why I didn't complain about Leia flying through open space. It flows naturally from telekinesis.

Leia couldn't fly. She could pull herself towards a ship in zero gravity. Palpatine couldn't fly. He could probably pull himself towards a ship in zero gravity, but not pull himself up in full gravity.

ETA: Technically, she was able to pull herself and the ship closer, if you want to think about it that way instead.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

We know Han has no Force sensitivity,

No we don't, and lalala I can't hear you. Going by just the information in the movies rather than outright press releases and taking all in-movie statements as purely the statements of characters rather than objective facts we can happily extrapolate that several characters including Han have some sort of force ability, and the movies become more enjoyable because we did this.

Don't overthink it, just overthink it.

[Vinyadan]

Leia couldn't fly. She could pull herself towards a ship in zero gravity. Palpatine couldn't fly. He could probably pull himself towards a ship in zero gravity, but not pull himself up in full gravity.

ETA: Technically, she was able to pull herself and the ship closer, if you want to think about it that way instead.

Sure, but Yoda can lift a starfighter into the air. Why shouldn't Palpatine be able to lift himself? Isn't that the basis for Force-jumping? And, even if it is special-cased, why shouldn't he be able to propel his own clothes upwards and hold on to them?

I know he can't because he doesn't, but it never made sense to me.

[Keltest]

Sure, but Yoda can lift a starfighter into the air. Why shouldn't Palpatine be able to lift himself? Isn't that the basis for Force-jumping? And, even if it is special-cased, why shouldn't he be able to propel his own clothes upwards and hold on to them?

I know he can't because he doesn't, but it never made sense to me.

Perhaps he was distracted by falling to his death.

[Rakaydos]

Perhaps he was distracted by falling to his death.

Failed concentration check.

[Peelee]

Sure, but Yoda can lift a starfighter into the air. Why shouldn't Palpatine be able to lift himself? Isn't that the basis for Force-jumping? And, even if it is special-cased, why shouldn't he be able to propel his own clothes upwards and hold on to them?

I know he can't because he doesn't, but it never made sense to me.

His robes were made in Kessel, they'd have ripped like tissue paper if he'd tried.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

His robes were made in Kessel, they'd have ripped like tissue paper if he'd tried.

It's the man who made the Kessel run in less than two pieces of clothing.

[Aeson]

TThat doesn't mean that it's a wrong idea. Palpatine's inability to fly is something that always bothered me. It's why I didn't complain about Leia flying through open space. It flows naturally from telekinesis.

I don't really agree that flight follows naturally from telekinesis. The telekinetic abilities demonstrated by Force users in the movies do not appear to produce reaction forces - neither Yoda nor Luke seem particularly crushed by their efforts to lift the X-Wing despite it being a fairly large object of sufficient density to sink in water and Obi-Wan doesn't seem to to have issues using a Force Push to topple a couple battle droids even though each of them ought to be about as or perhaps more massive than he is, for example - so 'flying' by pushing or pulling on nearby objects doesn't work unless you're going to the extreme of for example pushing the planet away from yourself at least as rapidly as you'd fall to its surface, and if you are going to that extreme then there are some very significant implications for anything nearby, both in the short term and the long term.

Moreover, as a general rule, telekinesis carries no implication of being able to move yourself - it's literally 'distant motion,' with the telekinetic person being the point of reference used to establish what is and is not 'distant.'

[Vinyadan]

I don't really agree that flight follows naturally from telekinesis. The telekinetic abilities demonstrated by Force users in the movies do not appear to produce reaction forces - neither Yoda nor Luke seem particularly crushed by their efforts to lift the X-Wing despite it being a fairly large object of sufficient density to sink in water and Obi-Wan doesn't seem to to have issues using a Force Push to topple a couple battle droids even though each of them ought to be about as or perhaps more massive than he is, for example - so 'flying' by pushing or pulling on nearby objects doesn't work unless you're going to the extreme of for example pushing the planet away from yourself at least as rapidly as you'd fall to its surface, and if you are going to that extreme then there are some very significant implications for anything nearby, both in the short term and the long term.

Moreover, as a general rule, telekinesis carries no implication of being able to move yourself - it's literally 'distant motion,' with the telekinetic person being the point of reference used to establish what is and is not 'distant.'

OK, I think that the problem here is my use of "fly" -- for me it means floating outside of water, for you and Peelee it means a more grounded physical event within a certain environment. My idea is simply that, if you can move things with your mind, there is little reason why you shouldn't be able to move your body with it, too.

Something similar goes for telekinesis. You're right about the literal meaning, but it's a name I used as a shorthand, and that, as far as I know, isn't used in Star Wars movies. And there's also the matter of magical jumps. I don't think Obi-Wan killed Darth Maul by jumping with his arms alone; he definitely looks like he's magically moving upwards. https://youtu.be/CvvAftMZYKM?t=190

[The Glyphstone]

Force Leap is, IIRC, a canonical force power. Maybe he used that instead? You never see Jedi flying, but they do use the Force to augment their acrobatics.

[Fyraltari]

There is precedent for Force flight.

[Aeson]

There's precedent for the Force granting pretty much any magical ability you could ask for if you go outside of the live-action movies, but if you think I care about what's "established" about the Force in anything outside of the main sequence movies* then you're sadly mistaken.

* For that matter, restrict that to the Original and Prequel Trilogies, which at least feel like they could be part of the same story; the Sequel Trilogy is far more reboot than continuation, and on top of that manages to be worse than the Prequel Trilogy was.

[Devonix]

But Leia isn't flying in Last Jedi. She's just pulling herself back to the ship.

[Aeson]

But Leia isn't flying in Last Jedi. She's just pulling herself back to the ship.

Leia using the Force to 'pull' herself back to the ship in any sense that isn't magical flight requires Force users to experience reaction forces when using Force telekinesis, and there is no evidence of reaction forces being applied to Force users in any other example of the use of a telekinetic Force power in the live-action movies. Thus, whatever Leia did when blown into space in The Last Jedi is, it's highly unlikely to be an application of a Force power previously demonstrated in any the live-action movies, because it's not acting like any of them.

[NotASpiderSwarm]

Leia using the Force to 'pull' herself back to the ship in any sense that isn't magical flight requires Force users to experience reaction forces when using Force telekinesis, and there is no evidence of reaction forces being applied to Force users in any other example of the use of a telekinetic Force power in the live-action movies. Thus, whatever Leia did when blown into space in The Last Jedi is, it's highly unlikely to be an application of a Force power previously demonstrated in any the live-action movies, because it's not acting like any of them.

Do I need to find a cut of every time in TPM where Obi-Wan launches himself 20' straight up? Luke yeeting himself out of the carbonite chamber? They've been flinging themselves around like tennis balls for most of the series, why is this any different?

Also, I seriously wonder how much of this is because Star Wars RPGs and video games have systemized the Force. When Luke faced off with the Emperor, Palpentine started electrocuting him. Were people saying then that this was an uheard-of use of the Force and completely unbelievable? It was new and shocking, but we expected the Force to give us new things. It's a mystic energy that binds the galaxy, it lets you communicate with the dead or across great distances, guides your hand in combat, telekinesis, shows visions of the future or of your fears, etc. Every movie showed you 3 new things no one had seen before. Palpentine having actual blasting magic was just part of that. NOW, Force Lightning is a named Sith power that deals Xd6 damage, and people are surprised whenever there's a new use of the Force. The magic is gone.

[Forum Explorer]

Leia using the Force to 'pull' herself back to the ship in any sense that isn't magical flight requires Force users to experience reaction forces when using Force telekinesis, and there is no evidence of reaction forces being applied to Force users in any other example of the use of a telekinetic Force power in the live-action movies. Thus, whatever Leia did when blown into space in The Last Jedi is, it's highly unlikely to be an application of a Force power previously demonstrated in any the live-action movies, because it's not acting like any of them.

A better question is why is it unreasonable to use Force telekinesis on yourself? If you can lift an X-wing at a distance, why couldn't you lift yourself?

[Aeson]

Do I need to find a cut of every time in TPM where Obi-Wan launches himself 20' straight up? Luke yeeting himself out of the carbonite chamber? They've been flinging themselves around like tennis balls for most of the series, why is this any different?

Amplified physical ability is not an unambiguous manifestation of telekinesis.

Also, when characters very unambiguously make use of telekinetic abilities - for a few examples, Vader ripping things off the walls and throwing them at Luke on Bespin, Obi-Wan ripping the whatever-it-was off the ceiling so that it'd fall on General Grievous's magna-guards on Utapau, Yoda lifting the X-Wing on Dagobah, Yoda catching the falling rocks that would have crushed Obi-Wan and Anakin on Geonosis, Rey restraining the First Order shuttle on Pasaana - there are no apparent reaction forces. Explaining something in a way which requires reaction forces is notconsistent with the way telekinetic abilities have been demonstrated to work in the Star Wars setting, ergo the leaps and bounds made by various characters in the movies and Leia flying back to the Raddus are not manifestations of the same ability.

A better question is why is it unreasonable to use Force telekinesis on yourself?

Because telekinesis by definition acts on something remote, and unless your head has taken up a long-distance relationship with your body then you are not remote from yourself.

More importantly, until the Sequel Trilogy, it is not an unambiguously-demonstrated capability in the films despite there being a number of times when it would have been useful for characters in the movies.

[NotASpiderSwarm]

I mean, there's no way you can amplify someone's muscles enough to do half the jumps they do without shattering their legs, but sure, we can ignore that. And we can ignore the fact that Dooku can fly because "it's not in the movie". And we can even ignore that, fundamentally, even if you can't move yourself for whatever reason, Leia could absolutely have moved her clothes or whatever and gotten the same effect.

The only reason Anakin hits his mark in this scene is by flinging himself at the last minute.

Also, the Force is explicitly mystical and should not be a codified powerset with specific pre-designed powers. This ain't 3.5, it's a religion. Luke hits the target because the Force is with him. He doesn't know telekinesis is a thing on Hoth, he just knows that he needs his lightsaber and the Force will provide, and it does. Why are you so tied to the idea that the Force can only do things that it has specifically been shown to do before? All things are possible through the Force.

[Forum Explorer]

Because telekinesis by definition acts on something remote, and unless your head has taken up a long-distance relationship with your body then you are not remote from yourself.

More importantly, until the Sequel Trilogy, it is not an unambiguously-demonstrated capability in the films despite there being a number of times when it would have been useful for characters in the movies.

And no one in universe has called it telekinesis, so quibbling about the literal definition of the word is pointless.

Honestly? There isn't that many. In the Prequels I can't think of any, and in the original I can think of two scenes; Luke hanging to thing on Bespin and the Emperor falling down the shaft. And in the former, he'd still need to call for help to get picked up.

Remember, when most things get moved with telekinises that we've seen, they either move slowly and carefully, or are flung brutally. Neither is particularly optimal for doing to yourself in a fight.