Contingency - There when you need it?

[Jarian]

Him deciding not to waste time doesn't mean you win. See: Chewbacca Defense. It's more "typical Internet argument" than "purposely confusing", and he was smart enough to see it was going nowhere rather than bowing out because his mind was reeling, but the point stands.

No, no, you misunderstand. I won and that's all that matters.

I don't give two hoots who wins an internet argument with this level of specificity. I think points should stand on their own merits, not be determined by who plays the bigger bully.

[Augmental]

Alright well a rogue at that level wouldn't be stupid enough to approach a wizard who's fully prepared. The wizard will most likely be fighting monsters. What do you do? You wait until the end of the day when the wizard has exhausted most of his spells and goes to rest.

1) Sneak into camp.
2) If alarm spell or early warning system, defeat exhausted wizard, if not skip to next step.
3) Finish of weak wizard
4) Take items.
5) Not that hard.

Rogue are supposed to be prepared for most things. Yes a wizard is supposed to be prepared too, but the wizard doesn't know about the attack, while the rogue does. The rogue can even weaken the wizard over the day by sending various hirelings at him(They die so he probably won't need to pay them).

Basically even if we have a Schrödinger's Wizard, he still can't fight effectively if he's faced 4 full encounters that day. He might not have expended all his spells, but that's certainly less to worry about.

Rope Trick.

[ryu]

Contingency: teleport myself to a safe place several miles away. If I'm asleep I'll probably wake up in the process.

[Kazyan]

Also, I'm confused about who got to -9 in the above post.

Wizard got Sneak Attacked to -9, stabilized, and then the party got involved.

[Arcanist]

=>Vilpich

Spoiler

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Could you not set up cumulative contingencies that protect one another? So if one focus is stolen, a contingency activates and turns the rogue into squishy dough. That way, even if the rogue knows about the contingency to the contingency, he'll have to steal that statue first, which likely sets off an alarm system so you can destroy the rogue and still have your original contingency active.

I can imagine a Demilich that is so paranoid all he does is make contingent spells all day everyday for his contingencies... Cmon, I'm sure even Schrodinger's Wizard's can't even accomplish this without going insane I mean sure you can propose that the Wizard mindraped all of Thay into crafting contingencies for him all day everyday but... That would imply that a Wizard failed his save which everyone knows is impossible... So a Wizard cannot have contingencies for everything because they cannot have contingencies for there contingencies and those contingencies cannot have contingencies and so on till the end of days...

=>Augmental

Spoiler

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Alright well a rogue at that level wouldn't be stupid enough to approach a wizard who's fully prepared. The wizard will most likely be fighting monsters. What do you do? You wait until the end of the day when the wizard has exhausted most of his spells and goes to rest.

1) Sneak into camp.
2) If alarm spell or early warning system, defeat exhausted wizard, if not skip to next step.
3) Finish of weak wizard
4) Take items.
5) Not that hard.

Rogue are supposed to be prepared for most things. Yes a wizard is supposed to be prepared too, but the wizard doesn't know about the attack, while the rogue does. The rogue can even weaken the wizard over the day by sending various hirelings at him(They die so he probably won't need to pay them).

Basically even if we have a Schrödinger's Wizard, he still can't fight effectively if he's faced 4 full encounters that day. He might not have expended all his spells, but that's certainly less to worry about.

Rope Trick.

"I can't win so I'm going to leave" ... I'm sorry what? Thats literally like how my 9 y/o sister flips up the chess board everytime she is about to lose

[Wavelab]

=>Wavelab/Augmental

Spoiler

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"I can't win so I'm going to leave" ... I'm sorry what? Thats literally like how my 9 y/o sister flips up the chess board everytime she is about to lose

It's my turn to say sorry what? I don't know what you're trying to say.

[ryu]

Wait what? You're attempting to outsmart a wizard by not fighting him at his best, but get all high and mighty over him using a basic move from his skill set to trump your plans? It's not even you specifically. Sleeping in rope tricks is simply a good defensive idea.

[Arcanist]

It's my turn to say sorry what? I don't know what you're trying to say.

Not you Wave I was referring to Augmental's comment Shouldn't have marked you in that reply

[Wavelab]

Rope Trick.

Yes but then the wizard can't take his bag of holding/handy haversack/spell component pouch(If your DM treats it as an extradimensional pouch) with him.

[Arcanist]

Yes but then the wizard can't take his bag of holding/handy haversack/spell component pouch(If your DM treats it as an extradimensional pouch) with him.

Lemme link it before he does... I thought of that already ah well...

I'm curious what kind of action it is to snatch the rope into the window as well otherwise a Scroll of Dispel Magic boots the Wizard out of his little hole xD

[ryu]

Is it any kind of big deal due to expensive components or some lack of experience? If so eschew materials. If not you either keep few spells around that require materials, keep non magic pouches around for just such an occasion with the main bulk of cheap, everyday stuff in the same bag of holding you keep your loot in, or if you're really intelligent put an exploding rune on the same bag. I like option three because it harms the thief and wakes everyone up.

[Augmental]

I'm curious what kind of action it is to snatch the rope into the window as well otherwise a Scroll of Dispel Magic boots the Wizard out of his little hole xD

Or the wizard could just pull the rope into the pocket dimension before going to sleep.

[Arcanist]

Or the wizard could just pull the rope into the pocket dimension before going to sleep.

We'll seeing as there is listed action to pull the rope into the pocket dimension its not possible. Meaning I can still dispel the rope thus forcing you of the pocket dimension...

On a sidenote: Wave do you mind linking me to the pbp thread you started a while ago... (Devil's advocate if that gives you any ideas)

[ryu]

You can take actions out of combat quite easily actually. Further dispelling the thing beforehand leaves you with an entire party awake and ready to disarm you and then use your daggers as suppositories. Yes I'm vindictive with thieves trying to murder me and take my stuff. What of it?

[Wavelab]

We'll seeing as there is listed action to pull the rope into the pocket dimension its not possible. Meaning I can still dispel the rope thus forcing you of the pocket dimension...

Well yeah. The point precisely. The rogue will be prepared. A scroll or two of dispel magic. If I was the rogue I would study the wizard's every action before I attacked him. I'd know how to defeat him.

[ryu]

I also like the assumption that there isn't any watch schedule being kept by the party at all. Seriously NO ONE ever takes precautions while camping in a world where random lions can show up out of seemingly nowhere when on a journey and bandits are actually a thing.

[Arcanist]

I also like the assumption that there isn't any watch schedule being kept by the party at all. Seriously NO ONE ever takes precautions while camping in a world where random lions can show up out of seemingly nowhere when on a journey and bandits are actually a thing.

Well duh, because they are always busy guarding the wizard because he just NEEDS his 8 hours

[Wavelab]

Well duh, because they are always busy guarding the wizard because he just NEEDS his 8 hours

And they are in a rope trick extra dimensional space. I don't think there are any lions that can dispel that

[Arcanist]

And they are in a rope trick extra dimensional space. I don't think there are any lions that can dispel that

Idk they might encounter Awakened Half-Force Dragon Lions Just out of paranoia...

[Wavelab]

Idk they might encounter Awakened Half-Force Dragon Lions Just out of paranoia...

Maybe. But seriously. The party will be exhausted and their resources will be depleted. I'm sure the rogue could handle it if they were surprised enough.

[Augmental]

Well yeah. The point precisely. The rogue will be prepared. A scroll or two of dispel magic. If I was the rogue I would study the wizard's every action before I attacked him. I'd know how to defeat him.

The rouge would still have to pass the caster check. Since casting it from a scroll means you'll be casting it at the minimum caster level, that's CL 5 vs the wizard's CL 9 (we are assuming the wizard is level 9, right?). The odds are in the wizard's favor.

[ryu]

Eh rogues lose most of their combat capability without sneak attack damage which is useless once everyone is awake and aware. Heck the fighter could probably kill him. Also standard party is usually five to six. Technically you don't need eight hours of sleep. Just eight hours of rest. Give the wizard first watch and have him tell his familiar to fly overhead while he waits in the rope trick. Rather elaborate, but an effective watch made without breaking spell recovering rest.

[Wavelab]

The rouge would still have to pass the caster check. Since casting it from a scroll means you'll be casting it at the minimum caster level, that's CL 5 vs the wizard's CL 9 (we are assuming the wizard is level 9, right?). The odds are in the wizard's favor.

Even if he doesn't succeed, chances are the wizard will come out to check who it is. And I'm not assuming the wizard has a party with him. If that's the case then the rogue would have a party too, in which case the entire concept becomes moot.

[ryu]

Further in order to do this we assume you're tailing the wizard. As in following him around. You've even mentioned going for days just to study him. That means you have to go unnoticed by him, his familiar, and most probably anything he's fighting because they don't know you aren't together. Just think of all the hide and move silently checks.

[Augmental]

Even if he doesn't succeed, chances are the wizard will come out to check who it is. And I'm not assuming the wizard has a party with him. If that's the case then the rogue would have a party too, in which case the entire concept becomes moot.

From the text of rope trick:

"Those in the extradimensional space can see out of it as if a 3-foot by 5-foot window were centered on the rope."

Also:

"The window is present on the Material Plane, but it’s invisible, and even creatures that can see the window can’t see through it."

So if you've pulled the rope in, the rogue can't see where the window is unless he has see invisible, and he still can't see through the window even if he does.

[legomaster00156]

Even if he doesn't succeed, chances are the wizard will come out to check who it is. And I'm not assuming the wizard has a party with him. If that's the case then the rogue would have a party too, in which case the entire concept becomes moot.

In addition to the above-mentioned window, why the heck would any Wizard with a minimum of 15 INT come out of his secure extradimensional space, resources depleted, to try and face somebody who just tried to DISPEL his secure extradimensional space?

[Wavelab]

From the text of rope trick:

"Those in the extradimensional space can see out of it as if a 3-foot by 5-foot window were centered on the rope."

Also:

"The window is present on the Material Plane, but it’s invisible, and even creatures that can see the window can’t see through it."

So if you've pulled the rope in, the rogue can't see where the window is unless he has see invisible, and he still can't see through the window even if he does.

1) A rogue will most likely have a way to get see invisibility if he's tailing a wizard.
2) He's watching the wizard, he saw him set up his camp.

Remember that this is a rogue who knows about the wizard's contingency, so we can assume he has a way of figuring these things out and that the wizard is more than just a random target.

Edit:

In addition to the above-mentioned window, why the heck would any Wizard with a minimum of 15 INT come out of his secure extradimensional space, resources depleted, to try and face somebody who just tried to DISPEL his secure extradimensional space?

True, but he will have to come out eventually. And the rogue might not let him even cast Rope Trick next time, he might just attack.

[Arcanist]

The rouge would still have to pass the caster check. Since casting it from a scroll means you'll be casting it at the minimum caster level, that's CL 5 vs the wizard's CL 9 (we are assuming the wizard is level 9, right?). The odds are in the wizard's favor.

Got a Wizard fanboy to admit they can fail... Color me shocked

When your faced with one of the largest threats in the entire multiverse a mere 750gp is a drop in the bucket (We're assuming we're playing with 9th level WBL and since the Wizard decided to spend it all on focuses for his/her contingencies... Kind of a bad idea... a really bad idea in the long run)

I must say I really did find the idea of performing a x amount of free actions to steal all the Wizard's stuff quiet hilarious

+12 ranks +5 Dex + 15 custom magic item (22,500gp) + Skill Focus (SoH) +3 +2 Synergy bonus +2 (deaf hands) and now I can literally roll a 1 still succeed in jacking all your stuff

Blur/Displacement has no applications here since no attack roll is being made, There are no rules against using skills on invisible subject, Of course now comes the question of how do I kill the Wizard? Well I've already spent about 23,250gp (15,750gp of my WBL) so I could simply take the skill trick mosquito bite and use the trusty poisoned dagger (Bebilith Venom is a personal favorite, cheap and its effective) Of course this attack would be vulnerable to Blur/Displacement... Ah well... I've had better dreams

And if worst come to worst he performs a skill check through your invisible (yet interactive) window and SoH's the rope out (all of this as a free action, assuming that pulling the rope is even an action) and uses a standard action to dispel magic your rope (This dispel check being +10 due to the item being made at 10th caster level)

[Hiro Protagonest]

Well yeah. The point precisely. The rogue will be prepared. A scroll or two of dispel magic. If I was the rogue I would study the wizard's every action before I attacked him. I'd know how to defeat him.

So... Schrodinger's Wizard isn't legit, but Schrodinger's Rogue is? Because an Alarm and a Rope Trick are rather simple precautions at this level.

Also, I assume there isn't an action for pulling the rope into the space because it's pulling up a rope. There's already an action for it.

Maybe. But seriously. The party will be exhausted and their resources will be depleted. I'm sure the rogue could handle it if they were surprised enough.

So... one surprise round could down a warblade whose only weakness is not being in a stance, because the cleric healed him with any leftover spell slots before bed? Seriously, he's not fatigued, he's not out of maneuvers, and his hit points are full. And then there's the cleric, whose DMM Persisted Divine Power lasts until the morning. And the party's rogue. And this is all after the rogue found the extradimensional space without tripping the Alarm, knew there was an Alarm, successfully Dispelled both spells, and got up into the extradimensional space. All to steal the focus to prevent the wizard from using Contingency.

[Jarian]

Schrodinger's Rogue vs. Schrodinger's Wizard. One has the perfect spells for all occasions. The other, the perfect magical item. Who. Will. WIN?

Hint: It's the Wizard.