OOTS #1164 - The Discussion Thread

[zimmerwald1915]

Those Evil gentlemen, even if they're indeed Evil, are clearly being oppressed.

How do you figure that the armed agents of the state authority, with a monopoly of violence, are being oppressed?

[Tiltowait]

The vampires have a vague plan to plane shift before the world ends.

But in reality they will simply die like everything else

Will they? I like the idea that some of the weird extraplanar creatures are actually survivor species from previous worlds. It's already canon that the gods of OOTS went through some pretty bizarre ideas.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

How do you figure that the armed agents of the state authority, with a monopoly of violence, are being oppressed?

Their families are being held hostage to ensure their obedience.

Grey Wolf

[zimmerwald1915]

Their families are being held hostage to ensure their obedience.

Grey Wolf

"Held hostage" is a bit much. They're not imprisoned, they're living in the Empire. And Tarquin doesn't have them in his back pocket to do with personally as he likes at any moment. They would be executed by other agents of his - that is to say, other members of the same organization, probably designated MPs. That's not oppression, that is internal organizational discipline.

[HerbieRAI]

I'd say Hel is a good planner. She isn't able to see the future like Odin, but a good one in any case. What she doesn't have is a lot of power.

1) The bet was a good idea. There have been countless worlds before this one, and at the time there was no reason to think this one wouldn't end any differently. Honestly, it still may be a good bet at this moment if the Order weren't the heros of the story. All Hel needs to have happen to win is the world get unmade before the Snarl is released, which will happen if the Order doesn't interfere with the vote or stop Xkyon from taking control of the final gate. Even then, they have to convince Red Cloak to help save the world against the Dark One's wishes or this problem will crop up again in the nearish future and Hel still wins.

2) She has made plans within plans to get this vote passed within a couple of weeks. She convinced the demigods to vote in her favor, which had to take some time and persuasion probably before the plan was in place. Then move an army of frost giants into position to stop an airship that may be passing through. There are plenty of other means of transportation.

3) I'd argue the pox was good planning as well. You never know how long these kinds of fights take place, and now she has a plan in play to take out the airship.

4) Durkla researched the "raise dead faster" spell instead of protection from daylight. Going to the dwarven homeland was always a contingency, and they had that all planned before the vote.

[D.One]

*Sells the bills and coins given to numismatics stores and fans in general, netting for himself some 10 million dollars*

As a numismatic fan myself, I must say that, depending on rarity, the sum may be way way smaller (and come on, you've just got a huge quantity of bills and coins - they're not that rare).

[Fyraltari]

"Held hostage" is a bit much. They're not imprisoned, they're living in the Empire. And Tarquin doesn't have them in his back pocket to do with personally as he likes at any moment. They would be executed by other agents of his - that is to say, other members of the same organization, probably designated MPs. That's not oppression, that is internal organizational discipline.

So the vast majority of the people of the Empire of Blood aren’t oppressed either, then?

[zimmerwald1915]

So the vast majority of the people of the Empire of Blood aren’t oppressed either, then?

When you can't see the difference between an armed soldier with the authority to kill with impunity, and an ordinary person without that authority, you may want your eyes checked for myopia.

[Watcher]

I'd say Hel is a good planner.

I completely agree. She is a good planner. She’s just not been characterized as a great long-term planner.

She’s had years and years to come up with this plan, but if Durkon didn’t Just So Happen to get vampirized right before the Godsmoot, she wouldn’t have been able to put it into action. She had no grand, long term plan to get a high priest. She hadn't done a single thing to make this opportunity happen.
The opportunity of Durkon’s vampirization dropped in her lap, and she used it to her fullest potential.

Yes, it’s a great plan. But, again, this has all happened, max, within 2 weeks. Great improvisation. Terrible long-term planning.

[Fyraltari]

When you can't see the difference between an armed soldier with the authority to kill with impunity, and an ordinary person without that authority, you may want your eyes checked for myopia.

Joke’s on you, I actually am myopic!
wait, no, joke’s on me.

I see no reason why the soldiers couldn’t be oppressed by the very system they enforce. Bad systems suck for everybody.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

"Held hostage" is a bit much. They're not imprisoned, they're living in the Empire. And Tarquin doesn't have them in his back pocket to do with personally as he likes at any moment. They would be executed by other agents of his - that is to say, other members of the same organization, probably designated MPs. That's not oppression, that is internal organizational discipline.

BS. "My family will be killed if I do something to annoy the guy in charge" is not "internal organizational discipline". It is oppression through hostage taking.

Grey Wolf

[hroþila]

Worth noting that in this scenario their families would be executed even though they'd be following orders and actually doing their duty. Hard to call it discipline when it doesn't respond to any breach of military code or internal rules.

[zimmerwald1915]

BS. "My family will be killed if I do something to annoy the guy in charge" is not "internal organizational discipline". It is oppression through hostage taking.

Grey Wolf

The only thing we ever saw that punishment invoked for was for killing someone Tarquin didn't want killed. It was a means to mercy.

In any event, soldiers can be subjected to more brutal punishments than ordinary people, from decimation for failure to flogging for disobedience to battlefield execution for desertion. This is a natural consequence of needing to keep rough, armed men in line, and its disappearance is a very modern development.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The only thing we ever saw that punishment invoked for was for killing someone Tarquin didn't want killed. It was a means to mercy.

Which in no way, shape or form denies that obedience is enforced via oppression and hostage taking

In any event, soldiers can be subjected to more brutal punishments than ordinary people

And when instead of punishing the soldier, their families are held hostage and may be subject to unjust punishment to ensure the good behaviour of the soldier, we call that oppression.

Grey Wolf

[Fyraltari]

The only thing we ever saw that punishment invoked for was for killing someone Tarquin didn't want killed. It was a means to mercy.

Tarquin gave no order to that effect, the soldiers simply guess that fighting back against (no mention of killing) Elan will mean localized familicide.

In any event, soldiers can be subjected to more brutal punishments than ordinary people, from decimation for failure to flogging for disobedience to battlefield execution for desertion. This is a natural consequence of needing to keep rough, armed men in line, and its disappearance is a very modern development.

Your moral relativism is showing.

[zimmerwald1915]

And when instead of punishing the soldier, their families are held hostage and may be subject to unjust punishment to ensure the good behaviour of the soldier, we call that oppression.

They get a benefit out of the arrangement: the authority to brutalize everyone else on behalf of the state. Being gleeful agents of an oppressive regime negates my sympathy for their personal hardships.

It's the same calculus that denies my sympathy and support to the slavedrivers in their defense of their narrow guild concerns, even though I'm sure they feel very deprived of what is their due.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

They get a benefit out of the arrangement: the authority to brutalize everyone else on behalf of the state. Being gleeful agents of an oppressive regime negates my sympathy for their personal hardships.

Their families are not the soldiers. Stop conflating them. And I don't give a damn who you have sympathy for. If someone holds a gun to your family's heads and tells you to go kill people for them, that is a clear cut form of oppression. Oppression is not defined as "people who have Zim's sympathy".

Grey Wolf

[zimmerwald1915]

Their families are not the soldiers. Stop conflating them.

The soldiers get a benefit, in exchange for putting their families at risk. No dispute that the families are oppressed, being treated like property, and disposable property at that, by their family members in the army.

And I don't give a damn who you have sympathy for. If someone holds a gun to your family's heads and tells you to go kill people for them, that is a clear cut form of oppression.

Wait wait wait. Are you assuming that the Empires' soldiers are conscripted? I was under the impression they were paid mercenaries, since the Vector Legion had to claim a treasure in order to raise their armies to begin with.

[Watcher]

They get a benefit out of the arrangement: the authority to brutalize everyone else on behalf of the state. Being gleeful agents of an oppressive regime

Not to get sucked into another argument, but they do NOT have the authority to brutalize everyone else. They are told by the regime who to brutalize. If they brutalize the wrong person, their families are killed.

Also, are they gleeful? Most of the soldiers are textbook punch-clock villains who take no special joy from it. It’s just a job to them.

[Fyraltari]

The soldiers get a benefit, in exchange for putting their families at risk. No dispute that the families are oppressed, being treated like property, and disposable property at that, by their family members in the army.


Wait wait wait. Are you assuming that the Empires' soldiers are conscripted? I was under the impression they were paid mercenaries, since the Vector Legion had to claim a treasure in order to raise their armies to begin with.

Conscripts are paid too. And an army requires much money beyond soldier wages. Food, equipment, weapon, maintenance, etc. Besides I doubt Tarquin accepts resignations.

Edit: further than that, soldier can be neither conscripts nor mercenaries but ordinary citizens looking for a stable at-least-two-meal-a-day job. Slaver society are not typically booming with work opportunities. The roughly equal proportion of humans and lizardmen in both the army and the Empire’s civilian population suggest that they aren’t foreign.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The soldiers get a benefit, in exchange for putting their families at risk.

They are not putting their families at risk. Their families are being held hostage to ensure their obedience and behaviour.

Wait wait wait. Are you assuming that the Empires' soldiers are conscripted? I was under the impression they were paid mercenaries, since the Vector Legion had to claim a treasure in order to raise their armies to begin with.

Even a conscripted army takes money to raise and maintain. More, in fact, than if it was true volunteers. And an army that relies on hostage taking to ensure obedience is not an army that pays their soldiers well enough to ensure obedience.

Grey Wolf

[Dion]

... since without Thor cheating and tampering with the bet's conditions...

I missed something in the comic. Where did this happen?

[The Aboleth]

I missed something in the comic. Where did this happen?

I think the implication is that Thor teaching the Dwarves how to die honorably so as to avoid Hel is "cheating."

I'm not sure I agree with that, but it is certainly one way to look at the situation.

[Peelee]

Your moral relativism is showing.

Spoiler: Relevant... Community?

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[Grey_Wolf_c]

I missed something in the comic. Where did this happen?

It didn't. Nothing in the bet either implicitly or explicitly forbid Thor from informing the dwarves about the conditionals surrounding their after life admission process. And since it is a god's prerogative - if not mandate - to inform their followers how best to act to reach their afterlife, it would have had to be really explicitly forbidden in the bet that the dwarves couldn't be informed for it to be "cheating" to let them know.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

It didn't. Nothing in the bet either implicitly or explicitly forbid Thor from informing the dwarves about the conditionals surrounding their after life admission process. And since it is a god's prerogative - if not mandate - to inform their followers how best to act to reach their afterlife, it would have had to be really explicitly forbidden in the bet that the dwarves couldn't be informed for it to be "cheating" to let them know.

Grey Wolf

Let's say you and I make a bet that Fyraltari will skin his knee. I then run over and push him down, causing a skinned knee. Nothing implicitly or explicitly forbade me from doing that, but it still went against the spirit of the bet.

Given the nature of Hel's bet, yay Thor, but it's still a thumb on the scales.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Let's say you and I make a bet that Fyraltari will skin his knee. I then run over and push him down, causing a skinned knee. Nothing implicitly or explicitly forbade me from doing that, but it still went against the spirit of the bet.

Given the nature of Hel's bet, yay Thor, but it's still a thumb on the scales.

Lets say that both you and I are in the business of shoving people. That would make me a fool for proposing such bet, but you would have done nothing wrong (especially if I proposed it to you when you were drunk). Gods are in the business of getting people into their respective afterlives. To do so, they employ priests whose primary function is to tell congregations how great their god is, what they will get if they stay on their good side, and how to do so. The bet only changes the last of the three - in no way does it stop Thor from still employing the first two.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

Lets say that both you and I are in the business of shoving people. That would make me a fool for proposing such bet, but you would have done nothing wrong (especially if I proposed it to you when you were drunk).

Grey Wolf

If we're in the business of shoving people, then the bet would be more "you're not allowed to shove people anymore, but you get everything when people fall in the grass," and then I put up a "stay off the grass" sign. Still thumbing the scales.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

If we're in the business of shoving people, then the bet would be more "you're not allowed to shove people anymore, but you get everything when people fall in the grass," and then I put up a "stay off the grass" sign. Still thumbing the scales.

But the bet wasn't "Thor is not allowed to collect dwarf souls" - the equivalent of "you can't shove people". The bet was "you get all non-heroic dwarves, and you don't get priests". The equivalent of "you don't get to shove people anymore, but any that fall on grass count towards your quota", and then complaining that the guy that is now doing all the shoving isn't aiming the people at the grass.

The bet essentially means Hel gets a day world off her job, and now she complains that the guy who is still doing his job is not doing it to her advantage. That's not thumbing the scales, that is literally Thor doing his job to the best of his ability.

Grey "at some point this shoving metaphor is going to be insufficient" Wolf

[Peelee]

But the bet wasn't "Thor is not allowed to collect dwarf souls" - the equivalent of "you can't shove people". The bet was "you get all non-heroic dwarves, and you don't get priests". The equivalent of "you don't get to shove people anymore, but any that fall on grass count towards your quota", and then complaining that the guy that is now doing all the shoving isn't aiming the people at the grass.

The bet essentially means Hel gets a day world off her job, and now she complains that the guy who is still doing his job is not doing it to her advantage. That's not thumbing the scales, that is literally Thor doing his job to the best of his ability.

Grey "at some point this shoving metaphor is going to be insufficient" Wolf

I was taking "use clerics to proselytize" as "shoving people," actually. Would have been better if I'd added "you get the money in their pockets when you push them/they fall in the grass," but I thought of that too late and when I went to edit you'd already posted.