Reading Discworld!

[farothel]

The thing I have with the ending of Soul Music is

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that the whole Susan/Imp thing goes nowhere. I don't think he is even mentioned again.

And meanwhile Susan then goes off chasing after the new God of Time.

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Susan was only a teenager at the time of Soul Music (I'm not sure of the exact age, but I would say between 13 and 16 somewhere), so it's probably just an infatuation rather than a real love.

[Corvus]

The cast for The Watch series has been announced.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/bb...richard-dormer

Vimes looks a good choice. Carrot and Angua will obviously need some hair colouring done.

Sybil looks too young, thin and good looking for how Sybil was described in the books.

And then there is the description of the show.

The eight-part comedy-drama,that gleefully rips up the genre rulebook, follows several of Terry Pratchett’s best-loved creations on a riotous and emotional odyssey. Richard Dormer will star as Sam Vimes, Captain of The Watch, disempowered by a broken society that’s reduced his department’s jurisdiction to almost nothing. Jo Eaton-Kent will play the ingenious non-binary forensics expert Constable Cheery, ostracised by their kin and finding a new home and identity within The Watch. Adam Hugill will play Constable Carrot, the idealistic new recruit, raised by dwarfs, but really a human abandoned at birth. Marama Corlett will play the mysterious Corporal Angua who is tasked with Carrot’s training and keeping the rookie alive. Lara Rossi will play the formidable Lady Sybil Ramkin, last scion of Ankh-Morpork’s nobility who’s trying to fix the city’s wrongs with her chaotic vigilantism. Sam Adewunmi will play the wounded, wronged Carcer Dun, out to hijack destiny itself, take control of the city and exact a terrible revenge on an unjust reality.

Sybil a vigilante? Carcer being wronged? Angua training Carrot? Talk about straying a long way from the source material.

And a tweet from Rhianna Pratchett- I'm not involved in #TheWatch. I was years ago when Dad was alive, the BBC weren't involved and it was a very different beast.

[tyckspoon]

And then there is the description of the show.

Sybil a vigilante? Carcer being wronged? Angua training Carrot? Talk about straying a long way from the source material.

That's a.. fairly loose version of 'inspired by', yeah. Especially Carcer. I could imagine Sybil idulging in a spot of vigilantism in her younger days.

[GloatingSwine]

That's a.. fairly loose version of 'inspired by', yeah. Especially Carcer. I could imagine Sybil idulging in a spot of vigilantism in her younger days.

But probably only if it was over a dragon....

[Sholos]

Cheery is hardly non-binary and she'd probably chop your knees off if you insisted on calling her "them".

[Fyraltari]

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Cheery is not non-binary but considering the way traditional dwarf society is used as an analogy for trans- and homophobia that may just be a simplification to get the point across without having to spend a paragraph on her. Carcer being wronged in the past is a change from the book but seeing as is one of the least interesting Discworld villains (at least to me) that may be a good thing. Angus training Carrot is also a change. Not sure how I feel about that since it doesn’t seem necessary (hard to tell without seeing the show of course) but it doesn’t really clash with their respective world-weary/idealistic personnalities. (EDIT : and of course they have less time than in the books to introduce everyone.)

Sybil as a vigilante and ‘last scion’ of AM nobility is weird.
And her looking more hollywoodian beautiful is a disappointment but not an unexpected one.

EDIT: They seem to have nailed Vimes and Carrot but I am confused by the lack of Fred Colon and Knobby Knobs.

[Evil DM Mark3]

OK, I don't want to sound like one of "those guys" but, does anyone else think they are trying to make The Watch more feminist?

Spoiler: This is a thread mostly about a guy's journey through the books and he hasn't reached much of this yet.

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I mean if you look at the books it is a very masculine organisation and set of characters, to the point that "But she's a werewolf" "Yes I know" is a running gag in Angua's first appearance. By making Sybil more pro-active rather than, lets be fair, a totally oblivious shut in and swapping the dynamic of Angua and Carrots's relationship, particularly when you consider the recurring theme of "part wolf+part man=dog" that also comes up in their relationship, the idea that, in a very real way, she belongs to him, they might be trying to make it feel more progressive and inclusive.

Which is annoying because Sir Terry's works read very well through a feminist lens. Carpe Jugulum for instance starts with the protagonist having to (and being willing to) perform a late term abortion. The real power that women have always had to shape and control their lives and the vital role they have played in society is front and centre. That said this trend, Cherri and to a lesser extent Angua aside, is possibly least prominent in The Watch (and most prominent in The Witches, which makes all the sense and is no criticism).

As for Cherri, the idea of Radical-Cissexualism is a strange one to our ears and makes perfect sense in context, like a lot of Sir Terry's ideas, but I get that it might seem strange to explain it that way in a promo piece.

Carcer getting any sort of sympathy is worrying however, because it breaks with a resounding crack the literary allusions the character is built on.

Also, what book is this based on? Carrot joins the watch and Lady Sybil unattached are Guards! Guards!, Angua joining is Men at Arms, Cherri joining is Feet of Clay, Carcer is Night Watch. I get wanting to do more of a mix or your own story, but this has set the canon to puree.

And where are Nobby and Colon? Where ARE NOBBY AND COLON? GIVE ME MY NOBBY AND COLON YOU HOLLYWODD MACHINE ANTI-UGLY BIGGOTS!

I'm only half joking. Colon and Nobby are the core of the tone and soul of the Watch books. Whenever Terry wanted to actually discuss prejudice and societal bigotry he would put the well meaning, man in the street, my-dad comment in Colon's mouth. Nobby would then usually give it an accidental Socrates. See Jingo for this at its finest.

[Rodin]

I think you're exactly right. They're going for diversity and inclusiveness while ignoring that the Watch novels are very much ABOUT the struggles of oppressed people (women, different races, LGBTQ) to fit in with a society that rejects them.

Rhianna Pratchett disavowing involvement is deeply concerning. Her coming out this early and saying she wasn't involved makes me think she's not happy with what she sees and is trying to get out ahead of the backlash.

Turning Sybil into a vigilante is also just...no. Sybil is a very interesting character because she is super traditional in a series with multiple feminist activists, and the way she's shown to wield that tradition like a club when required shows that there's more than one way to skin the swamp dragon. It totally misses the POINT of her character.

[farothel]

From what I understood during talks at the Disc World Convention in 2018, they wouldn't necesserily keep close to the books. They would keep the setting and the first episode would be close, but then they mentioned they would deviate and basically do their own thing.

And while the watch is a masculine organisation (expecially in the beginning), women like Angua (and Sally once she joins) actually have a lot of stuff going for them.

Spoiler: some more info

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In fact, Angua is the typical role reversal of the damsel in distress in that when she gets kidnapped, the other guards wonder if they should intervene on the criminals behalf. And she's one of the few people Vimes trusts completely, making it to captain in the later books. Actually, Vimes doesn't really care what gender you are, as long as you're a good cop.

And if you want even more strong women in Pratchett's books, read about the witches.

[Evil DM Mark3]

I can't work out why but the casting of Carcer is irritating me a little. I feel like someone has dropped a clanger but I can't tell why.

There is a slight irritation I can see with Sybil and Carrot, although it could be either. Carrot is almost certainly the true king. He's a send up of that entire archetype from Aragorn out. Aristocracy tends to be fairly homogeneous. So why are the Ramkins and the Royals so far apart in their apparent genetics?

Very minor point I know, I was just wondering if anyone could see why my brain is telling me Carcer's casting is worrying it.

Much smart and good words

EXACTLY. But these alterations feel like they didn't understand that themselves.

I think I should stop here, as I said I am aware that as a white-cis-romantic-asexual-man my window in this could be better and I've never made a formal study of these subjects, so I could very easily be being "That Guy" without realising.

[Corvus]

The problem with Carcer was that he was a total sociopath who claimed he never did anything wrong and was the victim of police brutality. Having a black actor in that roll could be problematic if not handled extremely carefully.

[Evil DM Mark3]

claimed [he] was the victim of police brutality. Having a black actor in that roll

That's it, thank you!

[Eldan]

This entire thing just reads far too much of "We didn't understand the books" to me. Lady Sybil as a vigilante is just wrong. Especially a good looking young vigilante. The entire point of her character (and that of a lot of other discworld characters) is that she doesn't fit into conventional hero tropes but is still strong and doing good, just in her own way.

[dehro]

There's also a chance that they understand just fine but choose to appeal to the broader audience and "simplify" the message.
A fair deal of how we interpret characters like Sybil or Cheery, depends on things the author tells us, often literally in footnotes, things that don't necessarily translate well into a visual medium.
Not defending their choices, but this may well be the reason for some of them.

[Eldan]

Sure, but it's also just nice to read about a middle-aged, heavy-set, very rich woman solving problems in a very practical way, instead of yet another bad ass vigilante, you know? Or seeing a calmly loving marriage between two very busy, but very established middle-aged people? There are just roles that are very underserved on TV.

I have, in general, a huge soft spot for people in literature who organize and lead to get things done, instead of picking up a weapon and going at it alone. Who clean up after the battle or make sure the food gets handed out during the siege.

[Corvus]

There's also a chance that they understand just fine but choose to appeal to the broader audience and "simplify" the message.
A fair deal of how we interpret characters like Sybil or Cheery, depends on things the author tells us, often literally in footnotes, things that don't necessarily translate well into a visual medium.
Not defending their choices, but this may well be the reason for some of them.

There is not a single thing in any of the books, footnotes or otherwise, that could remotely be interpreted as Sybil being a vigilante. It is totally 180 from what her character is.

[Evil DM Mark3]

There is not a single thing in any of the books, footnotes or otherwise, that could remotely be interpreted as Sybil being a vigilante. It is totally 180 from what her character is.

I think they meant in terms of, you know, all the rest. Sybil as vigilante just, no.

The wierd thing is, can anyone else see the potential for a Discworld story where a bunch of rich Vines fanboys do start beating up criminals, vigilante style? And how spare Vimes would end up going?

[Eldan]

He'd recruit them to the Irregulars and very handily remind them that they should not engage in anything outside of official Irregular activities.

[Gray Mage]

We should probably spoil some of these talks, considering some of the characters haven't been introduced in the books the OP has read (I know they are old books, but in a thread about reading them in order I think it'd be considerate to do so).

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I'm kind of ok with Angua and Carrot's seniority changing, as it allows Carrot to be the fresh recruit and introdute all characters at once.

Cherri's changes amuse me as Dwarfs in Discoworld have an unary gender system (the gender being Dwarf) and her fight is to make a binary gender system acceptable.
But I can see that as simplifying the issue to make it easier to understand while keeping the same "feel" to it.

Now Carcer.... Carcer worries me. The entire point of his character is that he was a bastard and that Vimes didn't put him down like the rabid dog that he was, but that due process was achieved. Carcer being wronged is, well, wrong.

Edit:

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I feel like an adaptation of Men at Arms would have been better, or at least using Cruces/d'Eath as villains. D'Eath could have been more simpatetic and Cuddy and Detritus' interactions are golden.

Btw, where my man troll Detritus at?

[Evil DM Mark3]

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I feel like an adaptation of Men at Arms would have been better, or at least using Cruces/d'Eath as villains. D'Eath could have been more simpatetic and Cuddy and Detritus' interactions are golden.

Btw, where my man troll Detritus at?

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Same place my mates Nobby and Colon are probably.

[Wraith]

There is not a single thing in any of the books, footnotes or otherwise, that could remotely be interpreted as Sybil being a vigilante. It is totally 180 from what her character is.

I remember Night Watch, wherein...

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...a bewildered Sam Vimes burst into her home, punched her butler and demanded to see her, not knowing that she was still 16 years old. Her immediate response was to tear an ornamental sword off the wall and chase him out of the room.

With that in mind, there are points in the Discworld books that sort of indicate certain interpretations of the characters. For example, Carcer *is* a wronged man.... At least, in *his opinion* he hasn't done anything too bad and the cops are getting on at him for no good reason.

I really don't have anything against that. I'm glad that they have announced it outright to be a reinterpretation of Discworld, rather than a faithful recreation - it would have been far, far more annoying if we were led to believe that we were getting Guards! Guards! or Men At Arms for real, and they slowly realise that wasn't the case in the run up to release.

From what I've heard so far I think I prefer the original, Unadulterated Pratchett - not just because that's what I'm used to but because 50 novels worth of text allows for more nuance and detail than 10 episodes of a TV show.
That seems to be what is causing discomfort so far; that our favourite characters and their archetypes have been shortened or abbreviated to make a better fit for TV. I remain optimistic that it could be good... but we first need to accept that it's not going to be 'Pratchett'. A bitter-sweet pill to take I'm sure, but we shouldn't hold it against what looks to be a very accomplished cast and enthusiastic crew.

[GloatingSwine]

I just wish they’d cast someone the right size for Sibyl. She’s supposed to be a lady of considerable construction.

[Rodin]

I just wish they’d cast someone the right size for Sibyl. She’s supposed to be a lady of considerable construction.

Statew-skew.

[Friv]

Yeah, I have mixed feelings about some of this.

Disclaimer: I don't care that much that they're not staying close to the books material-wise. I already have the books, and I'm much happier with a spiritual adaptation than with a super-direct one. With that in mind, Cheri being non-binary rather than a woman is fine, as long as the character beats are the same. Carcer sounds like they're combining a number of Watch villains into one major antagonist, so I can get over him being very different from his book presentation, and his blackness is less of a big deal with Sybil also being black, because it's not an "only black main character is the wronged criminal" situation. Similarly, flipping Carrot and Angua's training is fine, and could even present some interesting character moments as he grows into the role and takes over.

On the other hand, I'm waiting to see more about Sybil, because count me in the camp that really liked her as a practical, heavyset woman who knew how to wield her noble status like a cudgel to make the world a better place. Sybil is such a great character that altering her instantly makes me nervous.

A lack of casting announcements for Fred and Nobby might just mean they aren't going to be considered leads, which honestly they aren't in most of the Discworld books. No Detritus is a bit more sad.

[dehro]

A lack of casting announcements for Fred and Nobby might just mean they aren't going to be considered leads, which honestly they aren't in most of the Discworld books. No Detritus is a bit more sad.

I'm thinking detritus will be CGI.
TV already has had a Nobby of sorts in Baldrick, from blackadder

[hamishspence]

I'm thinking detritus will be CGI.
TV already has had a Nobby of sorts in Baldrick, from blackadder

Nobby was in the Hogfather TV special - played by Nicholas Tennant.

[Lemmy]

Interesting Times

Finally got to read "Interesting Times" this weekend. I wasn't expecting a Rincewind book from the title (or from the cover... Seriously, did no one ever tell the cover artist what the characters actually look like?), but as soon as "Fate" and "The Lady" showed up, I knew to expect The Great Wizzard.

I always enjoy Rincewind books. While he's definitely not the most complex Discworld protagonist, he's always enjoyable to read and has more depth than expected (I know I said this more than a few times already, but Rincewinds "confrontation" against the Sourcerer is still one of my favorite character moments in all of Discworld). As usual, the humor is great, but what really like about the character is seeing his unique views on life, which are based on a weird mix of cowardice, compassion, a bit of common sense (or the Discworld's closest equivalent) and... Well... Resignation. And it's actually kinda impressive how Rincewinds random Deux/Diablo Ex Machina (mis)fortune never feels forced (The ending with the kangaroo and the wizard's logic for lighting the canon before sending it back made me LOL).

Honestly, I wasn't particularly interested in seeing another fantasy not-Asia... But once again PTerry surpasses all expectations. More than parodying Asian fantasy, folklore and history like he does with Europe and pretty much everywhere else, Pratchett uses the setting to comment not on China or Japan, but on human nature itself. How people can be conditioned to behave in self-limiting or even harmful ways, how many "liberators", once in power, don't actually change much of anything for the people in general... And so on.

Aside from that, it was great seeing Twoflower again (Him getting so much character development was a pleasant surprise). It always bothered me a bit that throughout so many novels, there were basically no acknowledgements of the events that took place in the first two books, some of which should have been pretty huge (BTW, I was saddened by the fact that the idealistic young Emperor from Light Fantastic had been murdered and replaced by his uncle). Seeing more luggages was... Conflicting. On one hand, it makes the character less unique (Also I thought it was all that powerful because it was bought from one of the mysterious disappearing shops, not because it was from the Counterweight Continent), OTOH, it was funny to see it meeting others of its kind and even begin a family (and if I'm not misunderstanding something, The Luggage is still uniquely vicious and clever, in part because of everything it has seen and learned during its adventures Rincewind)... And of course, I can't forget Cohen and the Silver Horde. Every second spent with those old bastards is hilarious. Their big battle near the end is hilarious, and they had one of the very few character deaths that made me happy for the character (Saveloy getting to go to Barbarian Heaven gave me a genuine smile). EDIT: Oh, yeah... I forgot to mention, but "Disembowel-Meself-Honourably Dibhala" is hilarious!

I enjoyed this book a fair amount more than "Soul Music"... If someone had told me this would be the case after giving me a quick summary of the two books, I'd never have believe them.

Another great work by Sir Terry Pratchett.

Next is "Maskerade". I have no idea what it's about or what characters it follows... Let's see how it goes!

PS: Looking back at the cover art of previous books, the art for "Colour of Magic" and "The Light Fantastic" depicts Twoflower as literally having 4 eyes..

[Lemmy]

BTW, guys... Please, let's keep this thread focused on the books. I enjoy reading your opinions and commentaries on them, and it's difficult to do so (specially while trying to avoid spoilers) when going through a bunch of posts about the upcoming TV adaptation (which I expect to be terrible, based on what I heard/read about it).

[Wraith]

PS: Looking back at the cover art of previous books, the art for "Colour of Magic" and "The Light Fantastic" depicts Twoflower as literally having 4 eyes..

Apparently this was an unintentional mistake on behalf of the artist, Josh Kirby. He was given an early draft of The Colour of Magic to read as reference for his work and, when Two-Flower was called "Four Eyes" by someone as an insult, took it literally without thinking to ask.

I mean, it was a Fantasy novel written in the 1980's - one guy having 4 eyes really isn't all that remarkable, even if it were accurate.

Still, I know what you mean about Rincewind's appearance. In my mind' eye, I always think of him as he was portrayed in the video games - 30-ish years old, with a short ginger beard (and sounding a lot like Eric Idle...).
And yet when you read The Colour of Magic and The Lite Fantastic, it describes how he was in the same class as Ymper Trymon, who has spent at least a few decades working his way up through the ranks of Wizardry to become 7th Level. Depending on how long that process took, Rincewind could be anything from 30 to 60 years old!

[Evil DM Mark3]

Next is "Maskerade". I have no idea what it's about or what characters it follows... Let's see how it goes!

Oh I hope you and I share tastes, because I would pay real money to be able to read Maskerade for the first time again. Easily a top 5 book for me. And please forgive and ignore the side tangent, the thread must go on!!!!!