Serini is a moron

[Psyren]

1) Even if he ruled forever, I wouldn't be surprised if Serini found that preferable to total annihilation as well.

Given her age I can see why she wouldn't care about the ramifications of that, yeah. That doesn't make her any more agreeable though.

2) If it risks total annihilation in any way, she's not doing it. It's a line she won't cross, so of course she's dismissing it. Having lines you won't cross does not automatically make you a coward (though I won't argue if you want to claim other aspects of her character indicate cowardice).

Again though, she has no idea what Xykon's plans for the Gates are. For all she knows, he'll destroy the last one completely by accident anyway, or whichever hero shows up to "topple him" will do that, since blowing the Gate up apparently destroyed him twice before. (You know who else was at EVERY Gate that got destroyed? Xykon!)

Seriously though, what's her endgame here? Not only will she not stop Xykon from getting this gate, after she mindwipes this set of heroes, is she going to monitor every other one that comes along forever to make sure they won't try to get rid of the Gate too? And after she dies, then what? She certainly can't repair any of the other Gates herself. Her only real chance is helping this set of heroes so that they DON'T have to blow up the Gate to win.

3) Criticizing her for not knowing what she doesn't know, especially if that information is very niche information, is full-on armchair quarterbacking.

Actually, I'm criticizing her for refusing to even entertain the possibility that there is information she doesn't know, especially when verifying that is as easy as having a single conversation. As I would anyone who thinks they know everything, no armchair required.

[Ionathus]

Again though, she has no idea what Xykon's plans for the Gates are. For all she knows, he'll destroy the last one completely by accident anyway, or whichever hero shows up to "topple him" will do that, since blowing the Gate up apparently destroyed him twice before. (You know who else was at EVERY Gate that got destroyed? Xykon!)

Seriously though, what's her endgame here? Not only will she not stop Xykon from getting this gate, after she mindwipes this set of heroes, is she going to monitor every other one that comes along forever to make sure they won't try to get rid of the Gate too? And after she dies, then what? She certainly can't repair any of the other Gates herself. Her only real chance is helping this set of heroes so that they DON'T have to blow up the Gate to win.

Given that she herself implied Xykon would eventually be toppled by heroes, I don't think that's part of her plan. No discussion of The Plan (as the SG or Serini understand it) has established that Xykon would need to live next to the Gate to access or use the Snarl. I find it simpler to assume that they all think The Plan doesn't require constant proximity to the Gate once control is established. You're welcome to assert otherwise, but I'm going to need a citation.

Actually, I'm criticizing her for refusing to even entertain the possibility that there is information she doesn't know, especially when verifying that is as easy as having a single conversation. As I would anyone who thinks they know everything, no armchair required.

I wish you'd have responded to the rest of my statement, because I directly referenced this with the National Treasure stuff. If a person's opening pitch does not convince you that they have unique information you don't know about, you are not morally obligated to hear them out on the miniscule chance they might reveal something new eventually. If the Order or the Paladins want Serini to pay attention to their new information, they need to make it crystal clear that the information is truly novel to her, and nothing in the story thus far has indicated they did so.

Serini is the only surviving member of the team that created these Gates -- and Shojo's narrative says that all other sources of knowledge were purged by the early Sapphire Guard to keep the information hidden from other mortals. In addition, it's been said in-story that the gods have a blackout on all information regarding the gates. So there are no feasible terrestrial OR celestial sources for information about the Gates that Serini doesn't already have...unless she wants to know the specific noise they make when they explode, in which case the Order are certified experts.

The Order only got the information they did because of this specific chain of events:

• They were kidnapped by a remnant of another Scribble gate guardian and filled in on the story
• One of them died to a vampire
• All the other gates had been destroyed, so the gods panicked and called a Godsmoot
• That one that died was a cleric, so the vampire spirit's god could send them on a specific mission to the Godsmoot
• The Godsmoot happened to be about the Gates and contained enough pertinent information for Roy to understand the risk
• The team was able to defeat a powerful vampire group and also resurrect the vampirized team member
• The dead team member's god happened to be Chaotic Good enough AND of a specific personality to choose to wriggle out of the divine blackout on info and fill him in on all the salient details

Change any one aspect of this chain of events, and even if The Order made it to the North Pole, they would have no new info for Serini. To put it in that same god's words: "This is literally the single most special circumstance ever."

Given that this is what it took to obtain information Serini does not herself possess, does her refusal to listen make her a condescending jerk? Sure. Does it make her stupid, or at fault? That's a much harder sell.

[RatElemental]

They do also know there's a planet inside of the rifts, which even Thor didn't know, so I'm betting Serini probably doesn't know that either. They got this information from looking through the rifts.

[Ionathus]

They do also know there's a planet inside of the rifts, which even Thor didn't know, so I'm betting Serini probably doesn't know that either. They got this information from looking through the rifts.

I considered mentioning the planet in the rifts too, but ultimately I don't think they'd factor into Serini's decisions even if she knew, since they don't seem to impact the Xykon Conquest vs Eternal Oblivion calculation. Vaarsuvius tried to stop Roy from destroying Girard's Gate based on what Blackwing saw in the rift, but I think that was more based on "we don't understand fully what's going on" than because they strongly believed the gate needed to stay intact for whatever reason -- just that, once it's destroyed, there's no going back, and we're making a world-shattering decision with incomplete info.

[Psyren]

Given that she herself implied Xykon would eventually be toppled by heroes, I don't think that's part of her plan. No discussion of The Plan (as the SG or Serini understand it) has established that Xykon would need to live next to the Gate to access or use the Snarl. I find it simpler to assume that they all think The Plan doesn't require constant proximity to the Gate once control is established. You're welcome to assert otherwise, but I'm going to need a citation.

He set up shop next to Dorukan's for how long? Even if she knew nothing else, she has to have known how much time elapsed between Lirian's winking out and Dorukan's doing the same from her tracking device.

I wish you'd have responded to the rest of my statement, because I directly referenced this with the National Treasure stuff. If a person's opening pitch does not convince you that they have unique information you don't know about, you are not morally obligated to hear them out on the miniscule chance they might reveal something new eventually. *snip*

I'm questioning her intelligence, not her morals. The stakes are high enough here that taking a phone call should not be a herculean effort. And assuming they laid out everything she might ever need to know in a 25-word e-mail when they clearly didn't even know for sure whether she was alive, throws that intelligence into question for me.

And pointing out the likelihood of them having new information for her isn't relevant, when it would have cost her so little to ascertain that for herself.

[Ionathus]

He set up shop next to Dorukan's for how long? Even if she knew nothing else, she has to have known how much time elapsed between Lirian's winking out and Dorukan's doing the same from her tracking device.

That would be control of the physical gate, not control of the Snarl. Xykon never accessed the Gate itself due to Dorukan's pureheart sigil, and therefore never got the chance to complete The Ritual. Just because I camp outside a Best Buy for 2 weeks to buy a PS3 doesn't mean I have to stay in the parking lot for the rest of my life to play it. I would take what I want home, and leave the Best Buy where it is.

I'm questioning her intelligence, not her morals. The stakes are high enough here that taking a phone call should not be a herculean effort. And assuming they laid out everything she might ever need to know in a 25-word e-mail when they clearly didn't even know for sure whether she was alive, throws that intelligence into question for me.

I don't fault them for featuring that information, but if you acknowledge that they probably didn't offer unique information then I don't see why you think she was obligated to hear them out. The first rule of marketing is to clearly demonstrate the value in continuing to pay attention to you. Doesn't matter how good or necessary the product is if the customer already thinks they're fine without it.

And pointing out the likelihood of them having new information for her isn't relevant, when it would have cost her so little to ascertain that for herself.

Is it legal to quote yourself?

Spoiler: old post

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Anyone saying "Serini should just answer their Sendings without giving anything away, it can *only* improve her position" has never responded to a cold call from a business-to-business salesperson.

Depending on how hungry the sales team in question is, you're signing yourself up for repeated calls, emails, LinkedIn requests, mail sent to your office, gifts, trying to work their way into your circles...and the most aggressive teams are taught very pointedly how to "overcome objections" (what a creepy phrase) and to never, EVER take no for an answer. Take it from someone who spent an agonizing period of his life as a salesperson: you don't answer cold calls, even to say "no thanks." The safest option is to let them leave 15 voicemails and then get bored and move on.

As another example, I have watched friends "ghost" someone who's giving them unwanted romantic attention. It is sometimes done out of callousness, sure, but all the examples I know are from people who were legitimately concerned for their safety if they'd directly told the person to leave them alone. Sometimes "I'm aware of your request, but I'm not interested" can do more damage than blocking the number and never responding.

*Any* amount of information is too much information. "Serini Toormuck is alive and is involved in Gate 5's defenses" is ALREADY more info than Serini is willing to divulge. What if she'd responded, said the bare minimum, and then the Order charged ahead anyway like she expected them to do (and like Durkon ultimately did)? There's a non-zero risk that one of them would be captured by Team Evil, who then learn that Serini survived. Unnecessary complications. Unnecessary risk. For no discernable reward (since she thinks they have neither the juice nor any Gates info she doesn't already have herself, because why would they after the early SG's campaign to wipe out Gates info? Who could've told them? A god?).

I do not share Serini's worldview. I do not agree with Ian Starshine that any small loosening of my paranoia will be used against me. Were I in her shoes, I'd probably be more likely to respond to the Sendings. But I don't think hers is a blatantly bad choice. In a high-risk situation, free exchange of information CAN BE dangerous if you don't trust the person who's trying to contact you.

[Peelee]

1) Right, but her assumption is predicated at least in part on the notion that he would only rule "for a few years." This in spite of her not only refusing to even talk to those who have firsthand knowledge of his capabilities, but also utilizing defenses that are actively making him even stronger.

2) Her complete dismissal of the clear third option (beating him and saving the Gate) is at best cowardly.

3) Had she bothered speaking with them, she'd have learned that letting Xykon win will likely result in the gods unraveling the world anyway. Clearly she has no idea why he wants the Gates in the first place, and failure to do even that basic recon is foolish.

1.) It seems she is being quite flippant. I would wager that even if the rule was for a few dozen, or few hundred, or few thousand years, it would still be better than the end of the world.

2.) Her dismissal of a third option with the people presented. If she had, for example, Durkon's potential Order of the Stick from OtOoPCs, I doubt she would be so discerning. That being said, I highly doubt we will come to an agreement on this.

3.) She knows exactly why Xykon wants the Gates, so you'll forgive me if I see this as patently unfair. Not to mention that what you consider "basic research" is really "an information blackout by the gods themselves and a number of clerics who are sequestered at a meeting the very existence of which is highly secretive." If you want to call Serini a fool for not knowing what you know, feel free, but don't expect me to go along with it.

[RatElemental]

Is it legal to quote yourself?

I think there's a bit of a qualitative difference between someone who wants to contact you to sell you something and someone who wants to contact you to collaborate with you on how to prevent the world from being destroyed by a god killing abomination.

[Ionathus]

I think there's a bit of a qualitative difference between someone who wants to contact you to sell you something and someone who wants to contact you to collaborate with you on how to prevent the world from being destroyed by a god killing abomination.

You're right: the world being destroyed is a much bigger deal, so she needs to be even more careful about the info she gives out, even "Serini is still alive."

[Psyren]

That would be control of the physical gate, not control of the Snarl. Xykon never accessed the Gate itself due to Dorukan's pureheart sigil, and therefore never got the chance to complete The Ritual. Just because I camp outside a Best Buy for 2 weeks to buy a PS3 doesn't mean I have to stay in the parking lot for the rest of my life to play it. I would take what I want home, and leave the Best Buy where it is.

And? She doesn't have to know what the holdup was, just that he seems fine moving in next to a Gate once captured.

I don't fault them for featuring that information, but if you acknowledge that they probably didn't offer unique information then I don't see why you think she was obligated to hear them out. The first rule of marketing is to clearly demonstrate the value in continuing to pay attention to you. Doesn't matter how good or necessary the product is if the customer already thinks they're fine without it.

Do you realize they're delivering a warning about the epic lich that almost one-shot her before, and not a sandwich toaster?

Is it legal to quote yourself?

I disagree with your analogy as much now as I did then, so quote away.

[hungrycrow]

You're right: the world being destroyed is a much bigger deal, so she needs to be even more careful about the info she gives out, even "Serini is still alive."

Kind of agree with this about information leaking but the comparison to telemarketers is still off.

Firstly, the Order would obviously never get bored of calling her until they got reassurance the world wouldn't be destroyed. They probably called her more than if she had just answered once.

Secondly, annoying phone calls is such a hilariously petty thing to be worried about during a world-shattering crisis that Serini including that at all in her calculus would only make her look worse.

[Ionathus]

And? She doesn't have to know what the holdup was, just that he seems fine moving in next to a Gate once captured.

I'm not sure what you're saying. Are you arguing that Xykon has no reason not to live next to the Gate once he's used it to control the Snarl? Or are you saying that Serini would have to spend several months knocking out and memory-wiping adventurers during the time it would take Xykon to complete The Ritual?

I disagree with the assumption in the first, though I can understand it. Serini seems to believe Xykon wouldn't need to hang around, though, and given she's one of the original Scribblers I'm inclined to assume her basic assumptions about it aren't flawed (see also: Hel Did the Math Wrong).

Do you realize they're delivering a warning about the epic lich that almost one-shot her before, and not a sandwich toaster?

Yeah, I do, thanks for checking. It doesn't mean the basic rules of communication and persuasion don't apply. Serini values secrecy, including secrecy about her current state of mortality. That secrecy is the cost of getting more information out of the Order, and she ain't willing to pay, because they haven't demonstrated the value by showing her that they have something she needs.

I disagree with your analogy as much now as I did then, so quote away.

Kind of agree with this about information leaking but the comparison to telemarketers is still off.

Firstly, the Order would obviously never get bored of calling her until they got reassurance the world wouldn't be destroyed. They probably called her more than if she had just answered once.

Secondly, annoying phone calls is such a hilariously petty thing to be worried about during a world-shattering crisis that Serini including that at all in her calculus would only make her look worse.

This is a misread of the analogy.

The risk is not "the Order will keep calling if I respond once." The Order is already calling, a lot. Serini has clearly accepted that as a tradeoff for not responding.

The risk is that Serini will become an ACTIVE target of their attention. If the Order (or the salesperson, or the creep who won't stop texting you) realize that you're an actual real person who is actually responsive to their messages, they will double down and focus their energy on you. It stops being a passive thing that they do while focused on other stuff, and it starts being their main goal.

Now that you've confirmed that you're listening, you're much more valuable to them. Rather than just another faceless number they call every week, you're worth the extra effort and resources it takes to close this deal or get that date or secure the Gate. They'll try to figure out where you are. They'll ask around, try to figure out who else you're in contact with. If they're unscrupulous, they might search social media or use email-testing websites to find your company's email structure and message everyone they can. Maybe they show up in person, even if you told them that wasn't necessary. Maybe they send gifts. Maybe they track down your sister and show up at her house, hoping to get her help in contacting you. Maybe they share your info with other people online. Maybe they doxx you.

I leave it to you to determine which of those risks apply to which of those three callers (The Order, the salesperson, the creep). Given the shady sales tactics of some companies, there's a truly scary amount of crossover. But my overall point is that even in our real, low-stakes, lawful society, there are already situations in which silence is the best option. The existence of Annihilation Buttons in OotS makes the risks even more tangible.

I understand why you think Serini should talk to them, and I even personally agree for the most part. But I have seen too many friends obsess over whether or not responding to a creepy text would provoke weeks of stalking, and as a result I'm not going to condemn Serini for choosing silence when the stakes are high.

[Liquor Box]

1) Right, but her assumption is predicated at least in part on the notion that he would only rule "for a few years." This in spite of her not only refusing to even talk to those who have firsthand knowledge of his capabilities, but also utilizing defenses that are actively making him even stronger.

2) Her complete dismissal of the clear third option (beating him and saving the Gate) is at best cowardly.

3) Had she bothered speaking with them, she'd have learned that letting Xykon win will likely result in the gods unraveling the world anyway. Clearly she has no idea why he wants the Gates in the first place, and failure to do even that basic recon is foolish.

I think you are right about these things, but I think even more importantly based on what Serini knows she underestimates the prospect that Xykon controlling the gate will lead to the destruction of the world. Serini knows that conflict is the biggest risk to the gate (she says so in 1229), and she also knows that conflict will continue so long as Xykon is control (she says that someone will topple him in 1229).

3.) She knows exactly why Xykon wants the Gates, so you'll forgive me if I see this as patently unfair. Not to mention that what you consider "basic research" is really "an information blackout by the gods themselves and a number of clerics who are sequestered at a meeting the very existence of which is highly secretive." If you want to call Serini a fool for not knowing what you know, feel free, but don't expect me to go along with it.

I don't think we've had any indication that she knows that Xykon wants the gates so he can release the Snarl and cast a spell on it to control it. She may know that he wants the gates so he can gain power, but based on what she knows it seems to me to be a pretty easy leap to the conclusion that there's no way to do that which is not dangerous.

I think Psyren's point is that basic research in this case would've been to seek to find our what the Order knows.

[Ionathus]

I don't think we've had any indication that she knows that Xykon wants the gates so he can release the Snarl and cast a spell on it to control it. She may know that he wants the gates so he can gain power, but based on what she knows it seems to me to be a pretty easy leap to the conclusion that there's no way to do that which is not dangerous.

I think Psyren's point is that basic research in this case would've been to seek to find our what the Order knows.

Spoiler: SoD

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The Order of the Scribble also fought goblins led by the Crimson Mantle, who were trying to take Lirian's Gate. In the absence of other information, I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that they would've been at least familiar with the Ritual.

[Liquor Box]

Spoiler: SoD

Show

The Order of the Scribble also fought goblins led by the Crimson Mantle, who were trying to take Lirian's Gate. In the absence of other information, I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that they would've been at least familiar with the Ritual.

That's a big maybe, but I guess it's possible.

If they do understand what the ritual is, and that Xykon plans to use it to control the Snarl, then Xykon getting the gate is even more dangerous.

[Peelee]

I think Psyren's point is that basic research in this case would've been to seek to find our what the Order knows.

The problem there is that "what the Order knows" is from four sources:

1.) What Shojo told them, which is secondhand info from Soon, which Serini already knows.
B.) That there is a planet in the rift, which was only gleaned by having destroyed a Gate.
iii.) What the heard in the Godsmoot, a meeting so secret that virtually nobody knows it has been happening despite it likely going on from the dawn of time (for their world, at least), and all members of whom are sequestered.
Δ.) What they were told by one of the gods themselves.

Discounting number 1 for obvious reasons, I would hardly call any of the others "basic research". And I would consider anyone who would as grossly mischaracterizing the situation.

[Forum Explorer]

We already know one thing: Team Evil was expecting a tomb full of powerful monsters, and that's what they think they're dealing with.

Knowing that there is an epic rogue actually actually on-site and manning the defenses would be a major clue that there's may be more than meets the eye.

And again, I think the difference between a party (especially a party of spellcasters) knowing that they're facing "caves with strong monsters and an epic rogue" versus just "caves with strong monsters" is far, far greater than many are giving it credit for.

Can you think of some specific examples of how preperations would differ? High level monsters aren't usually simple thugs. Take Sunny for example. A beholder often has minions, uses different strategies and the like.

Now I could see it in the sense of Team Evil moving slower and more cautiously. They wouldn't want to get ambushed when they are low on HP and resources after all. But Serini isn't taking advantage of that anyways.

OK. I'm going to take it out of order because I think that lets me explain my ideas in the way that best makes sense.



Here's a question: Did the Order ever communicate in those Sendings that they had game-changing news that would affect how Serini would want to defend her Gate, or did they, like Durkon negotiating with Redcloak, withhold critical information because they didn't think it would be necessary? I'm guessing the latter. Now, I don't blame them for that: They'd have to know Serini doesn't trust them and doesn't want their assistance to think that's relevant, that they'd need to say more than "Epic sorcerer lich Xykon and his crew are coming to attempt to seize your Gate; we're on our way to help. And four more words."

So, I don't see this as a failure on Serini's part to get information she doesn't know exists.

As far as relevant information on Xykon, it seems like Serini is not planning direct confrontation, so she probably doesn't find that particularly useful, or at least not useful enough to outweigh the risk of bringing the Order in or giving away information.



A lot of this is conjecture-- not unreasonable, mind you, but try to look at it from Serini's perspective. What percentage more difficult is it to ambush them successfully if they know she's around? If nothing else, that would make it easier for them to figure out who they're dealing with sooner. Even if it's 1%, Serini doesn't think that's worth the risk. And what information could these bumbling, gate-blowing, dungeon crawlin' fools possibly offer her? (See as covered above.)



Blowing the Gate is a last resort because they couldn't defeat Xykon-- or, was intended to be as such in the case of Soon's Gate, and certainly was so at Girard's Gate. So I think the takeaway about the Order's prowess is the opposite of what you're implying.

Now, Dorukan's Gate, they didn't actually blow up for that reason, but:
a)If you know that two gates were blown to keep them out of Xykon's hands, and the same people blew a third Gate that Xykon had seized, it's reasonable to infer they blew the third for the same reason;
b)The actual reason they blew the Gate is certainly not going to inspire any more confidence in Serini to trust them with her Gate's defenses.



Unfortunately, they got into a door pretty quickly after they arrived, so she didn't really have time to do that.

And clearly, if her ambush fails, she has a problem, but she doesn't think it will. Even underestimating the Order, she got the drop on them pretty strongly, and was winning for a while-- so much so that a few people on the forums complained that it was too easy for her. It took Elan-- someone who, if Serini knows him at all, probably knows him as the dunce who blew up Dorukan's Gate because he pushed the DO NOT PUSH button-- using his charisma and storytelling skills to create an opening that allowed the Order to turn the tide. If her ambush succeeds, she sends them back home with no harm done.

I'm not really sure how her ambush would lead the Order to be more likely to destroy the Gate, though. The ambush is certainly not without its own risks, but given that Serini's goal is to keep the Order away from the Gate because they blow up Gates, she has chosen what she thinks will be the most effective way to do so.

Again, we know there's good reason to speak to the Order and to involve them in the Gate's defenses, but with the information Serini has, and her priorities, it's logical for her to conclude there's good reason to keep them away from the Gate, and everything else she's done flows logically from that.

Yes, they did. Comic 990. She didn't respond even with that information.

The problem is that it is 0% more difficult to ambush the Order, or even a negative percentage.

It's more that Xykon, for all his power, couldn't actually stop the Order from blowing up the Gates, as far as Serini knows anyway. I mean, we know he arrived too late to protect Girad's Gate and that Soon's Gate being destroyed actually let Xykon survive. But I'm assuming Serini doesn't know that level of detail.


Sure she did. She's had weeks to talk to and coordinate things with the Order. She just hasn't used them.


All fights go well until they don't. Now yeah, she could've won the ambush and that'd be the end of it. But the ambush could have also gone even worse. She underestimated the Order, which hey, might be her whole problem.

How would her ambush lead to them destroying the Gate? I mean, there is the expenditure of resources for one. They are down more high level spells, and have taken more damage. And if they didn't have anti-poison spells they'd be down multiple members of their team. Now we know that no matter how desperate things get, the Order won't destroy the Gate. But Serini doesn't know that. She thinks that if they get desperate enough they'll destroy the Gate to stop Xykon from winning. So making them more desperate would only make that more likely.

[hungrycrow]

I'm not sure what you're saying. Are you arguing that Xykon has no reason not to live next to the Gate once he's used it to control the Snarl? Or are you saying that Serini would have to spend several months knocking out and memory-wiping adventurers during the time it would take Xykon to complete The Ritual?

I disagree with the assumption in the first, though I can understand it. Serini seems to believe Xykon wouldn't need to hang around, though, and given she's one of the original Scribblers I'm inclined to assume her basic assumptions about it aren't flawed (see also: Hel Did the Math Wrong).



Yeah, I do, thanks for checking. It doesn't mean the basic rules of communication and persuasion don't apply. Serini values secrecy, including secrecy about her current state of mortality. That secrecy is the cost of getting more information out of the Order, and she ain't willing to pay, because they haven't demonstrated the value by showing her that they have something she needs.




This is a misread of the analogy.

The risk is not "the Order will keep calling if I respond once." The Order is already calling, a lot. Serini has clearly accepted that as a tradeoff for not responding.

The risk is that Serini will become an ACTIVE target of their attention. If the Order (or the salesperson, or the creep who won't stop texting you) realize that you're an actual real person who is actually responsive to their messages, they will double down and focus their energy on you. It stops being a passive thing that they do while focused on other stuff, and it starts being their main goal.

But this isn't what she's apparently concerned about. She's concerned they'll focus on the gate, which they're also already focused on because she didn't respond. If the Order knew she was alive, they'd be focused on figuring out if she has a plan and if it can work. Which would mean they wouldn't be planning a last-ditch ambush on Xykon, or trying to commandeer what they think is an abandoned dungeon.

[Liquor Box]

The problem there is that "what the Order knows" is from four sources:

1.) What Shojo told them, which is secondhand info from Soon, which Serini already knows.
B.) That there is a planet in the rift, which was only gleaned by having destroyed a Gate.
iii.) What the heard in the Godsmoot, a meeting so secret that virtually nobody knows it has been happening despite it likely going on from the dawn of time (for their world, at least), and all members of whom are sequestered.
Δ.) What they were told by one of the gods themselves.

Discounting number 1 for obvious reasons, I would hardly call any of the others "basic research". And I would consider anyone who would as grossly mischaracterizing the situation.

It wasn't basic research for the Order, it was hard to find out information. But now that the Order knows, it is basic research for Serini to ask them.

Just like it was not basic research to figure out what neanderthals were and how they lived etc. But now someone has done that research, it is basic research for us to to read the wikipedia page and find it out.

[Peelee]

It wasn't basic research for the Order, it was hard to find out information. But now that the Order knows, it is basic research for Serini to ask them.

Just like it was not basic research to figure out what neanderthals were and how they lived etc. But now someone has done that research, it is basic research for us to to read the wikipedia page and find it out.

Except she doesn't trust the Order, and for good reason. They destroyed two Gates and committed genocide. If she did basic research into the Order, those would likely be the first things she found out. Which means they need to earn her trust to be able to impart the extra information they know which she doesnt.

The concept of "she should have done basic research" only lends credence into her not wanting to talk to the Order.

[Liquor Box]

Except she doesn't trust the Order, and for good reason. They destroyed two Gates and committed genocide. If she did basic research into the Order, those would likely be the first things she found out. Which means they need to earn her trust to be able to impart the extra information they know which she doesnt.

The concept of "she should have done basic research" only lends credence into her not wanting to talk to the Order.

Trust them to do what? We are talking about her asking them for information. Are you suggesting she can't trust them to not give her false information?

[Peelee]

Trust them to do what? We are talking about her asking them for information. Are you suggesting she can't trust them to not give her false information?

You have a critically endangered species. Bob, who accidr tally killed one when he didn't know what it was and then deliberately killed one when he knew what it was, wants to see yours. Also Bob committed genocide to a different species. Bob is calling on the phone right now, your caller ID says.

You may think it's a good idea to pick up for Bob. I'm not going to say one goddamn word to him. You call me illogical for this.

Do you see the problem here?

[Liquor Box]

You have a critically endangered species. Bob, who accidr tally killed one when he didn't know what it was and then deliberately killed one when he knew what it was, wants to see yours. Also Bob committed genocide to a different species. Bob is calling on the phone right now, your caller ID says.

You may think it's a good idea to pick up for Bob. I'm not going to say one goddamn word to him. You call me illogical for this.

Do you see the problem here?

I would if you simply said what you think it is. Is she worried they will give her false information? Is she worried that she would accidently let something slip? Is she worried that them knowing about her mere existence (or her involvement) is a risk? Is she worried that if she talks to them, they'll have their hooks into her and manipulate her (the telemarketer analogy)?

This isn't necessarily a case where I disagree with you. I just don't understand what your concern is.

[Peelee]

I would if you simply said what you think it is.

I did. Just there. You quoted it. The problem is that from her perspective, where she has no reason to believe the Order has any information helpful to her and every reason to believe they are a danger to the Gate (not our perspective where we know all context), she has no reason to want to talk to them at all. You have not given any reason why she should trust them or believe what they are saying in the Sendings.

[Ionathus]

Is she worried that she would accidently let something slip? Is she worried that them knowing about her mere existence (or her involvement) is a risk?

A combination of these two, for me at least.

Conversation is an exchange of information, otherwise it's an interrogation, and nobody wants to be interrogated via their own Sending. I would expect Serini thinks her information ("I'm alive" "I'm guarding the last gate" "I took the paladins" "I don't think you're all qualified") is more valuable than the information she could get from the Order (she thinks she knows all of the Gates stuff already), so any conversation would be a disadvantage to her if she's trying to maintain secrecy.

And as any of my players who've rolled a Bluff₁ check can tell you, every lie is a risk on its own, so I don't think she'd be keen to just lie her way through the conversation to get information she already thinks she has.

1. I'm told that this is what people called Deception checks in the Long Ago Era in which OotS is set.

[Ruck]

Yes, they did. Comic 990. She didn't respond even with that information.

"impending world-shattering doom" could easily be referring to the last Gate and the possibility of its control and/or destruction. Considering this comic happened before the major plot events of book 6-- which include the Godsmoot and Thor's revelations to Durkon, which are the two key critical pieces of information that would change Serini's calculus-- I'm going to say the Sending does not include that the Order has those two key pieces of information.

The problem is that it is 0% more difficult to ambush the Order, or even a negative percentage.

You've continued to assert this as stone-cold fact, and I don't think there's any reason to conclude this is definitely true. In fact, I'll even go with "Serini, as an epic Rogue in the setting, knows more about a successful ambush than either of us."

It's more that Xykon, for all his power, couldn't actually stop the Order from blowing up the Gates, as far as Serini knows anyway. I mean, we know he arrived too late to protect Girad's Gate and that Soon's Gate being destroyed actually let Xykon survive. But I'm assuming Serini doesn't know that level of detail.

Given that the Order blew up the Gates and that's precisely why Serini wants them out of the picture, I'm not sure where this is going.

Sure she did. She's had weeks to talk to and coordinate things with the Order. She just hasn't used them.

...Because she doesn't trust the Order and isn't trying to work with them, with sound reasoning and evidence. "Managing the Order so they never even enter a door," in that sense, means actually having the time to do so once they arrive, which she did not have.

All fights go well until they don't. Now yeah, she could've won the ambush and that'd be the end of it. But the ambush could have also gone even worse. She underestimated the Order, which hey, might be her whole problem.

Again, we're just circling back to "Serini should know things about the Order that we do, that she has no reason to know and no way of knowing." (And I don't consider the Order telling her "Hey, I know we blew those Gates but we're cool now and won't do it again, and we're also a lot more competent than we were then" as "knowing" that information. Same with not knowing how many levels the Order has gained in the last week or so or that Elan has grown into someone who can use his powers competently.)

How would her ambush lead to them destroying the Gate? I mean, there is the expenditure of resources for one. They are down more high level spells, and have taken more damage. And if they didn't have anti-poison spells they'd be down multiple members of their team. Now we know that no matter how desperate things get, the Order won't destroy the Gate. But Serini doesn't know that. She thinks that if they get desperate enough they'll destroy the Gate to stop Xykon from winning. So making them more desperate would only make that more likely.

OK, the last sentence I can see a reasoning for. But I don't think it's an outcome to worry about, for a couple of reasons:

From our perspective, and possibly Serini's, if the Order defeats her and is seriously drained from the fight, we could expect them to rest and regroup before attempting to take on Team Evil-- especially in the current scenario, where they know Team Evil's on a wild goose chase because of the teleport trap.

Pursuant to Serini's reasoning, it might be along the lines of "Well, they blew the Gates to avoid a fight (Girard's), when they started the fight at full strength (Soon's), and after they won the fight (Dorukan's), so I'm not really increasing the chances they blow the Gate by attacking."

I just don't think we know enough to know if Serini's planning was poor; it seems like a results-based analysis to say so. The near-success of the ambush combined with how much the Order has grown since Serini would have likely last had relevant information on them suggests to me it was a pretty good plan based on what she knew. I'm willing to withhold judgment until this plays out and we hear more from all parties involved.

[Liquor Box]

I did. Just there. You quoted it. The problem is that from her perspective, where she has no reason to believe the Order has any information helpful to her and every reason to believe they are a danger to the Gate (not our perspective where we know all context), she has no reason to want to talk to them at all. You have not given any reason why she should trust them or believe what they are saying in the Sendings.

I accept that Serini may not have any reason to think the Order has any useful information.

I also understand the argument that she thinks they are a danger to the gate. The thing I'm not grasping (and I don't see where you said it) is why merely talking to them crystalises any risk to the gate? What harm would talking to them do?

A combination of these two, for me at least.

Conversation is an exchange of information, otherwise it's an interrogation, and nobody wants to be interrogated via their own Sending. I would expect Serini thinks her information ("I'm alive" "I'm guarding the last gate" "I took the paladins" "I don't think you're all qualified") is more valuable than the information she could get from the Order (she thinks she knows all of the Gates stuff already), so any conversation would be a disadvantage to her if she's trying to maintain secrecy.

And as any of my players who've rolled a Bluff₁ check can tell you, every lie is a risk on its own, so I don't think she'd be keen to just lie her way through the conversation to get information she already thinks she has.

1. I'm told that this is what people called Deception checks in the Long Ago Era in which OotS is set.

Well Serini could simply ask them questions and refuse to give them any information. That might mean they refuse to give her information, but then she still gets at least as much information as she gets from not talking to them.

But I do get the idea that she sees herself as a bit of a secret agent, operating from the shadows and pulling strings. Putting aside that, in my opinion, she is pulling strings that increase the risk to the gate, I can understand that she thinks people knowing about her presence might be a bad thing.

[Ruck]

I also understand the argument that she thinks they are a danger to the gate. The thing I'm not grasping (and I don't see where you said it) is why merely talking to them crystalises any risk to the gate? What harm would talking to them do?

But I do get the idea that she sees herself as a bit of a secret agent, operating from the shadows and pulling strings. Putting aside that, in my opinion, she is pulling strings that increase the risk to the gate, I can understand that she thinks people knowing about her presence might be a bad thing.

Well, there you go.

(As a little addendum, I don't think she has to have any specific ideas of consequences that could come from talking to them. As you said, it's reasonable to think she doesn't want people to know about her presence, and from even that it's a simple step to "talking to the Order is more risky than not talking to them.")

[Peelee]

I accept that Serini may not have any reason to think the Order has any useful information.

I also understand the argument that she thinks they are a danger to the gate. The thing I'm not grasping (and I don't see where you said it) is why merely talking to them crystalises any risk to the gate? What harm would talking to them do?

Now Im not getting something. If you have two salient facts - namley, that she does not have reason to think they have any useful information, and that she thinks they are a danger to the Gate - then she doesn't need a reason to not talk to them. She needs a reason to talk to them. Why is she obligated to talk to them? Because, from what I can tell (and I may be mistaken), that now seems to be the only reasoning for her doing so. If she is not obligated to talk to them, then those two points point to very good reason to not talk to them.

[RatElemental]

It's not like receiving a sending is just a caller ID saying "Bob's calling" it's Bob saying up to 25 words of whatever he wants to say. Given V's sendings, in this case it would be more like the caller ID was saying "Bob would like to talk to you about protecting the last polka dotted cat."

There is a reason to pick up, they're outright saying they want to protect the gate. She knows they could be potential allies, even if she doesn't want them physically anywhere near the gate. It would have been easier to just answer and send them on a wild goose chase made up quest to keep them busy while she handles Xykon. That is, if she actually has any sort of plan for Xykon beyond "hope he gets bored and gives up."