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2015-05-27, 07:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Dreamscarred Press] Path of War: Expanded! (Discussion Thread IV)
Ok, fine, but you are discussing to add this to warlord anyway right?
If the sneak attack gambit as it is now appears on the warlord gambit list, there is a gambit there that it cannot ever complete. That seems a bit.. odd, right? I was just thinking about the consequences of your discussion.My homebrew:Reborn Necromancer and Feats
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2015-05-27, 08:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Dreamscarred Press] Path of War: Expanded! (Discussion Thread IV)
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2015-05-27, 08:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
Re: [Dreamscarred Press] Path of War: Expanded! (Discussion Thread IV)
Well, you could open them all up if you reword it, like I pointed out. Or, if you want to keep the sneak attack part of the gambit, you could make feats like the one I posted. (Feats that help multiclassing are great in my opinion, you could make a whole line of 'em)
Look, in the end, I simply like having options. I'm just trying to be helpful and think of ways for you guys to give access to these awesome new gambits to the warlord.
But hey, I'm not a writer for DSP, so I'll accept and love whatever you guys decide on. :)Last edited by Morrolan; 2015-05-27 at 08:17 AM.
My homebrew:Reborn Necromancer and Feats
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2015-05-27, 08:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Dreamscarred Press] Path of War: Expanded! (Discussion Thread IV)
Well I can tell you for sure that I'm not going to open them up via feat tax. Especially not a feat tax that requires a dip anyway. If I allow Warlords to have access to the Sneak Attack Gambit from the start, they might not be able to use it right off the bat, but they can still make it work if they take a one level dip in rogue.
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2015-05-27, 08:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
Re: [Dreamscarred Press] Path of War: Expanded! (Discussion Thread IV)
Yeah, you're probably right. Dipping and having to take the feat might be a bit too much. On the other hand, if you were dipping anyway it could be a nice bonus. Oh well.
Once last thing then, though:
Do you think you will be adding a foot/sidenote to the gambit saying that it actually requires the rogue's sneak attack class feature? Just having sneak attack in the description might otherwise be misinterpreted by some.My homebrew:Reborn Necromancer and Feats
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2015-05-27, 08:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Dreamscarred Press] Path of War: Expanded! (Discussion Thread IV)
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2015-05-27, 08:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2015
Re: [Dreamscarred Press] Path of War: Expanded! (Discussion Thread IV)
Silver Crane strikes are pretty much Smites: The Maneuvering.
The change to Lay on Hands may or may not be a nerf, depending on whether you value post-injury-healing as better than damage prevention or not.
On a personal basis I feel that Body of the Night's damage boost and Powerful Pugilist's precision damage should have been designated as deadly strikes.... but I can see why you guys wouldn't do that.
Also, there's a Steel Serpent stance that grants sneak attack, and there's a Steel Serpent boost that does the same.Last edited by MilleniaAntares; 2015-05-27 at 08:40 AM.
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2015-05-27, 08:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Dreamscarred Press] Path of War: Expanded! (Discussion Thread IV)
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2015-05-27, 08:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
Re: [Dreamscarred Press] Path of War: Expanded! (Discussion Thread IV)
My homebrew:Reborn Necromancer and Feats
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2015-05-27, 08:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2008
Re: [Dreamscarred Press] Path of War: Expanded! (Discussion Thread IV)
So, I can make a paladin by taking a Warlord, changing out a discipline with a trait and focusing on Golden Lion, Silver Crane and Iron Tortoise. I can even provide temporary HP for the party with Deadeye Gambit and Victorious Presence. (Plus some Golden Lion maneuvers)
I even make everyone less affected by fear and the like with Rallying Presence. Sound good?
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2015-05-27, 08:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Dreamscarred Press] Path of War: Expanded! (Discussion Thread IV)
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2015-05-27, 09:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Dreamscarred Press] Path of War: Expanded! (Discussion Thread IV)
Oh, no, absolutely not a problem balance wise, and I agree! The issue in my mind is that I'm more encouraged to shoot helpless immobile targets than enemies. Attacking the ground or smacking a party member for out of combat healing I don't mind at all. Attacking the ground for IN combat healing... makes me feel like a dumbass.
But it's the better choice as a support character - because I'd rather take the guaranteed chance of hitting the AC 5 ground than the far from guaranteed chance of hitting the AC 15 cultist with 20% miss chance.
I am ENCOURAGED to shoot the ground and punch party members in combat. Because using a healing maneuver is all-or-nothing - you have to HIT - if you're primarily support then you'll keep smacking the ground, even in combat, because it's a more reliable heal.Incredible avatar made by Ceika.
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2015-05-27, 09:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Dreamscarred Press] Path of War: Expanded! (Discussion Thread IV)
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2015-05-27, 09:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Dreamscarred Press] Path of War: Expanded! (Discussion Thread IV)
Incredible avatar made by Ceika.
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2015-05-27, 10:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Dreamscarred Press] Path of War: Expanded! (Discussion Thread IV)
Honestly I feel that a +1 merciful gauntlet of beating party members for health feels a bit... gamey. A stick of infinite cure light wounds is cheaper than a +1 merciful gauntlet anyways, and makes sense in-universe.
Balance reasons aside, how do you even begin to justify that in game?
'Hold still Thog while I beat you with my fist.'
'Thog already bleeding, why you try to finish Thog off?'
'You'll feel better after this! Trust me!'
'Thog may speak in third person to represent Thog's low intelligence, but Thog think this a bad idea...'
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2015-05-27, 10:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Dreamscarred Press] Path of War: Expanded! (Discussion Thread IV)
Call it a "Massaging Gauntlet"
"Here let me rub the hurt away."
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2015-05-27, 10:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Dreamscarred Press] Path of War: Expanded! (Discussion Thread IV)
Well then I've invested more resources than I should have for an effect, meaning that it should still be balanced compared to a want of infinite cure light wounds.
In game we justify it by our party members knowing how each others abilities work, trusting each other and not having a single INT score below 12. Sure, the first time I punched the party dwarf he was a bit leery about it, but since I did it without asking permission, and used it to heal him he stopped complaining about the same time his kidneys stopped bleeding.
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2015-05-27, 10:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Dreamscarred Press] Path of War: Expanded! (Discussion Thread IV)
No, no, no, you've got it all wrong. The merciful gauntlet isn't used for attacking your allies. It's used for attacking your allies' injuries. He punches the wounds so hard that the wounds disappear.
Please use they/them/theirs when referring to me in the third person.
My Homebrew (PF, 3.5)
Awesome Bone Knight avatar by Chd.
Spoiler: Current Characters
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2015-05-27, 11:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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2015-05-27, 11:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Dreamscarred Press] Path of War: Expanded! (Discussion Thread IV)
In game we justify it by our party members knowing how each others abilities work, trusting each other and not having a single INT score below 12.
It's weird cases like this which makes it hard to sell PoW to reluctant GMs. Infinite healing can be replicated a dozen or so ways, but the moment you mention 'Yeah, my punch-mans can punch-walls and heal the group forever. Lay on hands? More like Lay your Eyes on this sick elbow drop!', GMs tend to raise eyebrows.
Combined with PoW lacking a strong ruling on how out-of-combat maneuvers work, the infinite-lay-on-hands seems overpowered when comparing like-classes, like the Cleric or Paladin who spend resources per day to utilize this kind of stuff, despite the only 5% WBL gain cited in the above source. This, with the power discrepancy between Core Fighter/Barbarian (Which GMs are used to) to any maneuver utilizing class, and you're fighting an uphill battle just to get them to open the book to read it, much less allow it at their table.
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2015-05-27, 11:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Dreamscarred Press] Path of War: Expanded! (Discussion Thread IV)
Well yeah, that's fine too. But I'm playing a Warder, not a zealot
EDIT:
How does it work as part of the setting? My 22 INT Warder says "Hey, when I punch bad guys (actually, I use an earthbreaker for more offensive actions, but same dif) I can use divine energy to heal an ally. If there's no bad guys around though, who can I punch?" So I hit the Dwarf Warder with my merciful earthbreaker. The healing effect went off, and the 18 INT Dwarf and 22 INT Half-Orc deduced that the Half Orc could heal more damage than he dealt out by switching to a less damaging weapon to use specifically for healing.
It was a logical conclusion based on a hypothesis and tested via scientific methods by two very smart and probably drunk individuals. Y'know like most other scientific discoveries.
EDIT MY EDIT: I forgot to mention the animal testing phase, where we tested the hypothesis on a trio of badgers our party druid summoned.
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There are plenty of nonsense interactions in core pathfinder, but as soon as it's no longer core these interactions become a reason to ban a book. If you don't think your DM will like the conclusions you draw, then don't use them at that table. I could have played a wizard or an arcanist and tipped the game on its head way worse, but I didn't.Last edited by Elricaltovilla; 2015-05-27 at 11:24 AM.
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2015-05-27, 11:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Dreamscarred Press] Path of War: Expanded! (Discussion Thread IV)
You prevent so much damage that would have been dealt to your allies that it actually rolls around into the negatives and starts healing them?
I think this needs to replace the sorcerer quote in my sig. Would you mind if I did that?Last edited by Extra Anchovies; 2015-05-27 at 11:18 AM.
Please use they/them/theirs when referring to me in the third person.
My Homebrew (PF, 3.5)
Awesome Bone Knight avatar by Chd.
Spoiler: Current Characters
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2015-05-27, 11:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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2015-05-27, 11:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Dreamscarred Press] Path of War: Expanded! (Discussion Thread IV)
I don't see the issue. The fluff is already that you channeling the energy of good through your attack to heal at the same time as damage. Maybe I'm just not get the "process?" On how that is seen as weird when you use it as pure support punch healing.
For Cao Cao, For Wei!
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2015-05-27, 11:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Dreamscarred Press] Path of War: Expanded! (Discussion Thread IV)
Guys, I think you're failing to appreciate the beauty of this.
"Wait - stop, don't ambush these ones."
"Why?" the second bandit asked, incredulously.
"That's Mora the Betrayer. Look - there's a pair of displacer beasts attacking. Watch what happens."
The assault was swift and savage, but the adventurers overcame their foes in the end. And then, incredibly, the knight at the forefront of the group began hitting her allies with her gauntlet-clad fist - savage blows that echoed across the valley. And yet, each punch released a wave of bright, silver energy that flowed over their wounds, healing all but their pride.
"By the gods," the second bandit breathed.
"Exactly. We don't attack anyone that crazy."
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2015-05-27, 11:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Dreamscarred Press] Path of War: Expanded! (Discussion Thread IV)
To be honest, the Chained Rogue wasn't that good at sneak attack. Ninjas and Vivisectionists were miles better, and the only ones I can think of that are just flat out worse are... I think there was a bard that got like 3 die of sneak attack, and a magus that had to pay for each die with Arcane Points? They were worse. My favorite part of the Unchained Rogue is simply that you don't have to take Weapon Finesse and Deadly Agility, though.
I have 0 patience with an argument that starts with "even though a caster can already do it, and better, this seems like too much for a non-caster to have."
Regardless, the Healing Shiv concept has been around for a while. If the DM has a problem with it, he can house rule it.
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2015-05-27, 11:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Dreamscarred Press] Path of War: Expanded! (Discussion Thread IV)
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2015-05-27, 12:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Dreamscarred Press] Path of War: Expanded! (Discussion Thread IV)
Elric! I brought this suggestion to Errantx, and he said that he forwarded it to you and that you were considering it. Did you ever reach a conclusion?
Would the devs consider changing this:
Scarlet Throne Style [Combat, Style]
Your skill with a single blade allows you to strike with the same force as those much stronger than you.
Prerequisites: 1 or more Scarlet Throne stances, Sense Motive 3 ranks
Benefit: When wielding your weapon one handed with nothing in your off hand, you treat your weapon as being wielded in two hands for purposes of feats and abilities which would benefit from this change.
Scarlet Throne Style [Combat, Style]
Your skill with a single blade allows you to strike with the same force as those much stronger than you.
Prerequisites: 1 or more Scarlet Throne stances, Sense Motive 3 ranks
Benefit: When wielding your weapon one handed and not two-weapon fighting, you treat your weapon as being wielded in two hands for purposes of feats and abilities which would benefit from this change.
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2015-05-27, 12:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Dreamscarred Press] Path of War: Expanded! (Discussion Thread IV)
Casters should not be the balance point for the game. Considering DnD is a game where all players need to have some sort of role, players should be 'T' shaped. One area of competent specialization, with a broad area of supporting abilities and skills. These support areas should overlap with other players, but specializations should not. This is generally considered the Tier 3 area, and achieves balance by allowing every player to be in the spotlight every now and then, while making sure no player hogs the spotlight, while also making sure that no one ever feels useless in situations.
The problem with casters is that they're Box shaped. They have a broad area of abilities and skills with enough power behind them that they overshadow other players. Terms like 'Answers for everything' is what 'box' shaped characters mean.
A quick comparison of a 2 man party: Rogue and Fighter vs Rouge and Wizard or Wizard and Fighter.
Rouge and fighter are a 'Good' party(Relatively speaking). Rogue's specialization is Skills. Fighter specialization is Combat. Rogue can Combat. Fighter can Skills. But each player has their own specialization. 'T' shaped characters achieves balance.
Wizard and Fighter/Rogue are a 'bad' party. Anything either specializes in, the Wizard can do better. The Rouge/Fighter becomes marginalized in this party. This is because the Wizard is too strong. The Wizard is the problem.
Two options here is that you can either A) Bring down the Wizard or B) Bring up the Fighter.
Bringing up the Fighter causes the same issue: The Fighter becomes a box shaped character, which means you got the same problems. Really the fix here is to bring down the Wizard to a Tier 3 area, but that's never going to happen with Pazio at the helm (As we've seen with their new DOUBLE WIZARD wizard archetype).
Yes, I know Rogue/Fighter aren't tier 3, but Fighter/Rogue have their own design flaws and I'm just using them for an example
What I'm trying to say is that the argument 'A caster can do it better' shouldn't be an argument cause a Caster shouldn't be able to do everything better in the first place unless it's the caster's area of expertise.
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2015-05-27, 12:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2014
Re: [Dreamscarred Press] Path of War: Expanded! (Discussion Thread IV)
Please use they/them/theirs when referring to me in the third person.
My Homebrew (PF, 3.5)
Awesome Bone Knight avatar by Chd.
Spoiler: Current Characters