Poll: V or I?

[Dr.Zero]

In another thread, I saw a reference to V and I.
It was debated a couple of times already, but more than debating it again, I want to have a poll.

Who was right, during the ABD crisis, V or I?

A brief explanation can be given, but it is not needed.

I start casting my vote: V.
Why? well, while I. had surely some reasons to hold a grudge over V's attitude during the decades, during that specific crisis he was a stubborn idiot who didn't accept not even the idea V could have some good reasons (and V surely had some, that time) to keep the splicing running. V's plan didn't work completely (even if he managed to solve the Azurite problem and to free the Paladin), but it had a chance to work.

Results:
01: DrZero: V., #1
02: KovinStarmast: V., maybe, in doubt I wait for counting it, #5[0x01]
03: hropila: I., #11
04: The Pilgrimi: I., I suppose, #13
05: Shadowknight12: I. #14
06: Emberlily; I., #15
07: Precure: V., #22
08: Crusher: I., #30
09: burpbot: I., #43
10: Fergie0044: I., #51
11; Kish; I., #58

V.: 2 [0x01:maybe 3]
I. : 8

On a side note: bolding the vote might be of help.

[Cicciograna]

For some reason, I read those as Roman numerals, and for the love of the Twelve Gods I couldn't understand what the five and the one were.

[dancrilis]

Who was right, during the ABD crisis, V or I?

During the crisis there was no conflict between the two of them - there was only a conflict once the crisis had been resolved.

[enq]

To hopefully save someone else from having to decipher things:

ABD = Ancient Black Dragon
V = Vaarsuvius (ok, you hopefully knew that one)
I = Inkyrius

[KorvinStarmast]

V, since V is the PC and V needed to protect the family.

But it did lead to a divorce (during BRitF), so maybe 'who is right' isn't quite as important as 'what is right' in a case like this.

[woweedd]

I don't think it really matters much in that instance. V keeping the power after saving them wasn't the issue at play. Remember, Inky was already backing out before V gave any answer, because their hesitation confirmed something that had, clearly, been a source of tension in their relationship for a while: That V, frankly, cared more about arcane power then about their marriage.

[KorvinStarmast]

I don't think it really matters much in that instance. V keeping the power after saving them wasn't the issue at play. Remember, Inky was already backing out before V gave any answer, because their hesitation confirmed something that had, clearly, been a source of tension in their relationship for a while: That V, frankly, cared more about arcane power then about their marriage.

The panel in #679 being evidence in support of your last sentence (I finally found that and added the link in my answer).

[Fyraltari]

The whole point of the scene is that Vaarsuvius was lying to themself about the resons why they took the deal in the first place.
V claimed they only took the deal to save their family but the fact that they didn't end it after said family was safe is proff enough that it wasn't true.
The Archfiends offered V another way out of their predicament (yes it wouldn't have worked but V thought it would have and that's what mattered) and V refused it because it involved forsaking their pride. V had spent their entire marriage ore concerned about their own search for power than their spouse and children's well-being. Even during the battle, they were more concerned with taking revenge on the black dragon for humiliating them in their mage-duel (up to bringing them back from the dead and comitting genocide to flex their new magic-muscles) than the effects on their infant children.


Quite frankly, I'm surprised this is in question in the first place.

[Darth Paul]

Quite frankly, I'm surprised this is in question in the first place.

If there's one thing we've proven here, it's that everything is in question. (Suddenly I'm tempted to start a thread questioning whether Roy is really the leader of the OOtS, but I just know such a thread already exists somewhere....)

[Metastachydium]

Tinfant children

(We have seen both kids speak, so they cannot technically be infants.)

If there's one thing we've proven here, it's that everything is in question. (Suddenly I'm tempted to start a thread questioning whether Roy is really the leader of the OOtS, but I just know such a thread already exists somewhere....)

(I'm pretty sure I've argued somewhere that Tarquin was right and Elan is the true leader of the Order: he blew up Dorukan's Gate on purpose and the Order is pursuing his vague and ominous agenda ever since.)

[hroþila]

Inkyrius was absolutely right.

Even before V refused to drop the splice, what Inkyrius had seen was V prioritizing sadistic revenge over the immediate well-being of their children. They did so while looking like a monster. Inkyrius reacted in a very appropriate way, and in my opinion they actually displayed remarkable even-handedness and reasonableness by listening to V at all.

[Riftwolf]

For some reason, I read those as Roman numerals, and for the love of the Twelve Gods I couldn't understand what the five and the one were.

That's how I read it too. V or I in what context? V potatoes with a Sunday roast is too many, but I is too few. If you got a tin of Roses with only I penny toffees, you'd be livid. or 54-1-500, if you prefer.

[The Pilgrim]

As already pointed out, the critical point is V refusing to giving up the soul splice after saving her family.

Up to that point, V could - and managed to - excuse her actions as a sacrifice for saving her loved ones. And Inkyrius let her get away with that excuse, as flimsy as it sounded.

After V refused to stop the soul splice, though, Inkyrius came to the logical conclussion that V was a power-hungry wizard who would stop at nothing on her mad pursue for absolute arcane power, including selling her soul or exposing her family to danger.

Therefore, suing for divorce in order to protect his kids from an evil influence and a certain danger to their integrity was the right thing to do, as far as Inkyrius knows.

If V had explained him the whole story*, and Inkyrius had got the whole picture, well, then maybe he would have come to a different conclussion. But, alas, V did not.

...

* And don't tell me she had not the time for it. All she needed to do was sending him to the nearest comic-book store, and he could read all the stuff himself (at least, all the stuff published at that point).

[Shadowknight12]

Inkyrius was completely correct when they said (paraphrased) "if this was truly for the sake of us, then end this before you cast another cantrip."

[Emberlily]

Inkyrius was absolutely right.

Even before V refused to drop the splice, what Inkyrius had seen was V prioritizing sadistic revenge over the immediate well-being of their children. They did so while looking like a monster. Inkyrius reacted in a very appropriate way, and in my opinion they actually displayed remarkable even-handedness and reasonableness by listening to V at all.

100% agreed. And V being the one in the wrong is what makes the event and its fallout so much more interesting and emotional than the alternative.

If you do see Inkyrius as the one in the wrong, does the scene where we see V looking mournfully at a picture of them as the punchline to Eugene's setup about the merits of seeking magic vs family fall flat for you?

[arimareiji]

I vote for C, communication... something V has been sorely lacking in, which led I to decide C was no longer relevant. With good reasons, a pretty big one being "Dismissing the wounds of I and their children's broken legs as being unimportant, compared to zombifying a black dragon just to make it watch a quarter of its kin on the planet be killed".

That's how I read it too. V or I in what context? V potatoes with a Sunday roast is too many, but I is too few. If you got a tin of Roses with only I penny toffees, you'd be livid. or 54-1-500, if you prefer.

Hey, don't make me bring out the Latin nerdery. (^_~)

Flavius walks into a bar after a hard day. "Bartender, give me a martinus."
Bartender: "Don't you mean 'martini'?"
Flavius: "You're right, make it a double."

[Cicciograna]

But it did lead to a divorce (during BRitF), so maybe 'who is right' isn't quite as important as 'what is right' in a case like this.

By the way, speaking of these strips, I never really understood the reason behind all the chicanery, on the part of the wizard with the turban, to give Vaarsuvius the summons. Why provoking them like he did?

[Fyraltari]

(We have seen both kids speak, so they cannot technically be infants.)

Right. How would you describe them then?

I was completely correct

Can we come up with another nickname for Inkyrius? That sentence took me an embarassingly long time to parse.

Flavius walks into a bar after a hard day. "Bartender, give me a martinus."
Bartender: "Don't you mean 'martini'?"
Flavius: "You're right, make it a double."

The next day Flavius walks into the bar, holds two fingers up and yells "Bartender, five beers!"

By the way, speaking of these strips, I never really understood the reason behind all the chicanery, on the part of the wizard with the turban, to give Vaarsuvius the summons. Why provoking them like he did?

I think he wanted to trick Vaarsuvius into identifying themselves aloud (so he can record them doing so and so, in fine V can't deny having had the papers delivered to them). I'm not 100% sure why he felt the need to trick them rather than going "Hello, I am looking for an elf wizard called Vaarsuvius." If I had to venture a guess, I would say that Inkyrius thought V would be much less willing to agree to the divorce than they actually were and told the man so.

[KorvinStarmast]

By the way, speaking of these strips, I never really understood the reason behind all the chicanery, on the part of the wizard with the turban, to give Vaarsuvius the summons. Why provoking them like he did?

So that Vaarsuius self identifies (#678). The delivery of a summons IRL is kind of difficult if the person you are looking for isn't easy to find or is trying to avoid the summons, and so on. (In the US anyway, where Rich is from).

(I was once subjected to an improper summons being served to my address (old one) and not to me ...)

I have seen in a few movies and detective shows someone delivering flowers who is actually trying to serve a summons to someone ...

[Shadowknight12]

Can we come up with another nickname for Inkyrius? That sentence took me an embarassingly long time to parse.

I have edited the post with the full name, for clarity's sake.

[Mike Havran]

I think he wanted to trick Vaarsuvius into identifying themselves aloud (so he can record them doing so and so, in fine V can't deny having had the papers delivered to them). I'm not 100% sure why he felt the need to trick them rather than going "Hello, I am looking for an elf wizard called Vaarsuvius." If I had to venture a guess, I would say that Inkyrius thought V would be much less willing to agree to the divorce than they actually were and told the man so.

That does not explain why the messenger just didn't ask something like ''Are you Vaarsuvius? I bring a message for Vaarsuvius from Inkyrius.'' And in case Inkyrius already gave the statement for divorce that his mate is a power-hungry killer, the wizard's behavior was next to suicidal.

As for the OP, I think both were right. Their relationship was already in the toilet (Inky wasn't sure about V's whereabouts? Really? V didn't even bother to chat with her family via Sending like Durkon did with his mom?) and the crisis only cleared the table.

[Precure]

V
I sounds like an author tract.

[arimareiji]

That does not explain why the messenger just didn't ask something like ''Are you Vaarsuvius? I bring a message for Vaarsuvius from Inkyrius.'' And in case Inkyrius already gave the statement for divorce that his mate is a power-hungry killer, the wizard's behavior was next to suicidal.

As for the OP, I think both were right. Their relationship was already in the toilet (Inky wasn't sure about V's whereabouts? Really? V didn't even bother to chat with her family via Sending like Durkon did with his mom?) and the crisis only cleared the table.

I'd think it's disadvantageous to add "from Inkyrius"... but you're absolutely right about the process server's actual stratagem being semi-suicidal as it is (and practically suicidal with a power-hungry killer). That's bugged me for a while.

I agree their relationship was more-or-less in the toilet (or at least on the inner edge of the seat, leaning over to peer in) -- and I severely doubt V had been keeping close touch -- but I don't think periodic Sendings are necessarily excluded by what Kyrie tells the kids. They ask when V is coming home, and even V mid-Sending might have given a similar answer (given that V can't teleport).

V
I sounds like an author tract.

Yes, but there are other possibilities. *villain cackle*

Spoiler: godawful anime pun enclosed, you have been warned

Show

Everyone knows the paladins set out to destroy knowledge about the Gates... but decades ago, the Sapphire Guard also had a secret mission to track down and burn all copies of a book written by their commander in his youth.

It imagined his previous life as a student in a Japanese girls' school, and was titled Shojo, I.

[BaronOfHell]

Isn't V an allusion to the fast lane careering parent who is never home? I don't necessarily think anyone is in the right, but V's actions are definitely in the wrong, and not just because they hindered more than they helped.
Despite this I feel I do understand the reason behind V's actions, and I wonder if most of us wouldn't have done the same if we thought we had an auto-victory button that only needed to be pushed for the happily ever after ending to facilitate? After all what kind of faustian bargain would it be if the reader wasn't compelled by it as well?

[Schroeswald]

What Inky does is definitely correct, from everything they know and have seen V does not care much for their family and just wants arcane power. Honestly, I do think that besides familicide there is a pretty decent argument that (if we ignore the fact that V’s motivations are clearly power) most of what V did during the soul splice was the right choice and necessary to save the world, but what V did wasn’t to save the world. V wanted to become the most powerful arcane master of all time, and prove it by destroying this dragon, doing what no one else could and reuniting the Order, and finding the biggest arcane master they know of and defeat them. The prophecy says that V said the right four words, at the right time, for all the wrong reasons, because the soul splice probably did need to be accepted, the ABD needed defeated (though not by familicide, just need to hammer in that any of the defenses I give of V are not of casting that spell), the order needed reunited, and O-Chul needed to be sent back to the azurites. However Vaarsuvius wasn’t actually thinking about any of that, V was thinking about proving how cool and powerful V is, and in the process committing genocide and inadvertently putting the world at even more risk.

[Scottzg]

I vote for C, communication... something V has been sorely lacking in, which led I to decide C was no longer relevant.

That was my read too. It doesn't matter who was right, the issue is that communication between the two had failed. Yeah, V sucks at communicating, but a good/compatible partner recognize and step up. If V was a person in our world people would figure her out pretty quick and adapt.

When they separated in-comic i just thought 'yeah good, you both suck.'

[Ruck]

Right. How would you describe them then?

Commentary from Don't Split the Party describes them as "kindergarten-aged" (so 5 or 6 in human years). Very young children, but not infants. Kudzu is an infant, for comparison.

[Personification]

Flavius walks into a bar after a hard day. "Bartender, give me a martinus."
Bartender: "Don't you mean 'martini'?"
Flavius: "You're right, make it a double."

That was awful to the point of being painful.
...
...
...
Bravo.

As to the question, Inkyrius is definitely in the right based on what they know, but Vaarsuvius is almost not in the wrong. As others have pointed out, V's choice to reunite the party and potentially kill Xykon was a morally and logically defensible one, but it is undercut by the familicide, which was neither moral nor logical and certainly added to I's stress. On top of that, in a longer term sense V is responsible for most of the problems in their relationship which are directly tied to the issue of the scene, so I've gotta say that Inkyrius is definitely in the right.

Also, where do we learn that the head plan wouldn't have worked?

[Robots]

I thought the entire point of the devil deal was that V was doing the right thing for the wrong reasons. And even so, "the right thing" was the most terrible and extreme thing V could have done. They accept the deal not to save their family, but rather to gain more power. Hell, the strip they accept the deal is entitled "The Wrong Reasons"!

Solutions that don't involve them going all Darth Vaarsuvius are offered. They could have gotten Aarindarius to do it.

The entire point was that V prioritized power over their family. As Blackwing explains, V would often spend days away from home and then would blow off Inkyrius' desires to spend time with them when they actually were home. That's not the exact reason for their divorce, but it was a factor into it.

I don't know why there are arguments like "Was Inkyrius actually the one in the wrong for being horrified/angry at their spouse for neglecting them and eventually selling their soul to fiends not to save their family, but for arcane power?" when the answer to their question is spelled out clearly in the comic.

[Crusher]

Put me on team "I".