Questionable Content 2: Espresso With Extra Scorn

[John Cribati]

Previous Discussion of Jeph Jacques' webcomic Questionable Content Has reached 50 pages. This is the title that was apparently agreed upon.

To start things off: Did Dora make the right decision in Breaking up with Marten? General consensus is "Yes."

[Starbuck_II]

I'm going to say, 'Yes"
Dora isn't thinking very healthy. Sher doesn't trust Marten. She won't admit she was wrong.
She is only admitting she shouldn't have been caught. She pretends it was no big deal (her own words).

She has no problem making it a big deal in the reverse though.

[Morph Bark]

"Yes." But I'm sad that Marten didn't pitch in something. Then again, he's always been more of a "observe first" type of guy.

Also,

though I'm wondering how long the Coffee of Doom will remain the center of events.
I wouldn't go to my ex's place for my daily Latte

Coffee of Doom, as I said, has been one of the two central places of the comic since the start, right alongside Marten's apartment. It'd be a shame for it to lose it's status, especially since there aren't any contenders with a similar cool atmosphere perfect for jokes - not to mention the chalkboard.

[Ganurath]

What about the Tuxedo Bar? That seems like an up and coming establishment.

[Weimann]

I think Coffee of Doom will stick around. Marten might not come there so much any more, but the others have no reason to shun it.

[BRC]

I think Dora was Wrong about Marten. He has never shown signs that he is only dating her because it didn't work out between him and Faye.
However, she was probably Right to break up with him. Her insecurities will never let her believe that Martin isn't just settling for her, any time he does anything that could be remotely construed as being unhappy with the relationship, she explodes at him.
Really, at this point, if Dora hasn't been able to get it into her head that Martin is not going to leave her for the first girl to bat her eyelashes at him, it's probably not going to happen.

[Domochevsky]

Welp, guess that's that. A bit quick mayhaps, but definitely deserved. I'm surprised that Marten didn't make the "let's quit" move.

[Glass Mouse]

Yeah, I'm gonna go with "yes", as well. The conflicts have gotten worse and worse, and frankly, I think it's gonna do the comic good to have some romantic tension again - I mean, (almost) everybody else are either together or contently single. It might even give more screentime to Marten and Dora (hurray! They are good characters and don't deserve to skulk around in the background).

Also, cudos to Jeph for (apparantly) breaking them up. There seems to be this idea among authors that a couple leaving each other is horrible and never happens. Dunno why. Maybe 'cause it would make the characters seem less serious, and even slutty? Fear of upsetting fans? Maybe because a break up needs to have a "bad guy", and if both characters are supposed to be sympathetic, it'd destroy one of them? In any case, it's really great to see a fictious couple breaking up, much like people do in real life.
Especially since Dora is (was?) Jeph's favorite character.

Also, from a less meta standpoint, Dora wins a lot in my book for being the one to call quits. Being mature and manning up to the consequences of one's own screw-ups and shortcomings takes courage.

[John Cribati]

I don't know. Aggravating though their relationship was to him, Marten was constantly willing to put up with her nonsense. Even if I doubt that what they had was "love," there was at least dedication.

And yet Dora seems to realize that she shouldn't put Marten through all of her nonsense, so she's thinking about someone other than herself.

Truly, this is tragic.

[Morph Bark]

What about the Tuxedo Bar? That seems like an up and coming establishment.

I like that place and the costumes and silliness that come with it and am saddened it has not shown up recently or that much at all. Though the silliness and style it brings don't really fit with the general feel of QC overall that much, not as much as Coffee of Doom has at least.

[Keld Denar]

Man, some days Dora really wants to make me want to write "get a clue" on the CoD blackboard, and then slam her face in it over and over until its absorbed via osmosis.

If I was a chick, I'd never let Martin go. His couple of faults are minor, and his awesomeness is almost off the scale.

As a dude though, I don't care how hot Dora may be, or how good in the sack she may be...I wouldn't put up with that psycho jealousy. Either the jealousy goes, or the girl goes. I don't have the patience to, as Martin put it, to go through the "same old song and dance" to fix her problems. I'm caring and supportive, but people have to deal with their own problems. Its their own demon to fight, and if they can't handle it, then nothing I'm gonna do is gonna help.

I think Dora should go see Faye's shrink. I mean, look at the two. Faye used to be the screwed up one, and Dora was more or less level. Now Faye is more confident, clear headed, and making good life choices and Dora is self-destructing. Its a near total role-reversal between the two over the last few hundred strips. I think Faye's doc could really help out Dora a lot.

[Evil DM Mark3]

I think that CoD will be around, it is the nexus for character interaction and this was NOT a messy breakup. They are likely going to remain friends even after this. I think, at some point in the future, there is even a possibility that they may end up going out again, when D is in a better place.

Also, while Fey's shrink seems to be able to do the job, she has already said no more of your friends, as I can see why. Getting involved in a single circle of friends too much is actually very bad practice for therapists, they need to be detached and operating from a position of support for their patient, this is hard when you hear what several people say, and then there is the risk of breaches of confidence. NOT GOOD.

[Coidzor]

Now we'll have a reason to hardly ever see Marten!

[The Glyphstone]

Now we'll have a reason to hardly ever see Marten! Pintsize

Fixed that for you.

[Silfir]

I guess the relationship simply grew from a bad seed. To be fair to Dora, there was no reassurement that Marten wasn't just "settling for her" other than his own repeatedly stated word and the fact that, up to now, he hasn't acted in any way contrary. That's a good amount of reassurement, certainly, but that's all there is. There isn't for instance, the reassurement of Marten having specifically sought her out; she was the agressor, she pounced on him the moment Faye was out of the picture; there was really nothing Marten had to do to get her. She made it easy for him. And now, it turns out, she can't deal with that. She can't accept possibly having been Marten's second choice, which by the way I think is pretty narcissistic: What's wrong with being someone's second choice to begin with? You only learn to know each other during a relationship. It's perfectly possible for someone to be the second choice and still turn out to be loads better than the first.

Well, at the very least, she finally realized that she couldn't deal with it (as dumb as that may be) and took the appropriate step. That's commendable, at least.

[mucat]

I'm also in the "yes" camp. Dora really needs time to get her head together; Martin doesn't need it as much, but could use some practice standing on his own and making actual decisions.

A break from the "couple" status will be good for both of them. Whether it's permanent or not remains to be seen. For the sake of the story, of course, it doesn't make sense for them to get back together too soon...but in the long run they might both decide it's worth another go, armed with what they've learned on their own.

though I'm wondering how long the Coffee of Doom will remain the center of events.
I wouldn't go to my ex's place for my daily Latte

She's not his "ex"; she's his friend.

Or at least, I hope so. I've never understood the assumption that people will go directly from "love each other enough to think about a life together" straight to "can't stand the sight of each other." I've never had a relationship end that way; we've always remained friends. Not in the euphamistic, "we'll still be friends (because I feel like less of a jerk if I say that before systematically avoiding and badmouthing you from now on)" sense, but actual friends.

Actually, I suppose that's one reason I don't think this breakup is a bad thing. If you keep trying to force a relationship to work after it's turned bad for both of you, then you do end up hating each other and poisoning your memories of the good times. Dora and Marten aren't a healthy couple right now, but they both still care about each other, and they're both still at a point where they can be grateful for the time they spent together.

There are worse ways to end something.

EDIT: Ah, and the point I was making before I got sidetracked onto a soapbox: give Marten a little time to get over the shock, and I imagine he'll be hanging out with the CoD crowd again.

[Coidzor]

Fixed that for you.

No I hate that little bucket of bolts. He's only funny when it's him and the other one. And rarely at that.

When interacting with the humans he's just annoying and filleresque.

So I'm glad we've got less of him if this is so.

Also, from a less meta standpoint, Dora wins a lot in my book for being the one to call quits. Being mature and manning up to the consequences of one's own screw-ups and shortcomings takes courage.

Indeed, while at the same time, Marten loses for not actually managing to form a spine in time to do anything but stare like a deer into the headlights.

[Wraith]

Also, from a less meta standpoint, Dora wins a lot in my book for being the one to call quits. Being mature and manning up to the consequences of one's own screw-ups and shortcomings takes courage.

I understand what you're getting at and to an extent I agree, but at the same time I originally saw Dora as taking the cowardly way out of the relationship.

Yes, they have problems and yes it is probably quite hard for her to ignore the nagging feeling in the back of her head that Marten really wanted Faye, but that has been acknowledged and she has promised to work on stopping herself from acting this way.
This, however, is the first and only test of their relationship since she made that promise. She's had to make one attempt at not being selfish and she has failed once, and as such she's decided (again without fully considering Marten's position or feelings) to call it quits. So much for the determined and dedicated attempt at change!

What I'm saying is, she's giving up a fun and loving relationship, apparently because it takes too much effort just to think of someone else' feelings before doing something, and by effort I mean "she hasn't done it on the single occasion that she was called upon to do so". Maybe there's some sort of 'Martyr Complex' going on, and she's trying to atone for her poor behaviour by 'allowing' Marten to find someone else, but really she just doesn't want to put in the effort to make it work.

Brave and Mature? Possibly.
More so than admitting you were wrong, pledging to make a permanent change for the better within and then seeing that promise through to the end? I'm skeptical.

[BRC]

Except that she's not saying "It's too much work, time to break up". She's saying that she CAN'T convince herself that Martin isn't just settling for her. She is admitting that she is at fault here. She's not exactly saying "It's not you, it's me" but she's getting pretty close.

[Thiyr]

To be honest, I have to agree that it seems more like she's taking the easy way out. Presuming there hasn't been a huge lapse of time with more fighting going on behind the scenes (using Dora's hair as a timepiece), this is still the first confrontation after Dora made that promise. It's not that she can't, it's that she hasn't -tried- to make it work. I don't think anyone's expecting her to get over that issue immediately, least of all Marten. I think if, like before, she took the time to listen to his explanation, things would work. But again, she jumps the gun. She moved too fast in pouncing on him. She's moved too fast in blaming him in most of the arguments they've been in. And she moves too fast again in ending it, imo.

She's also jumping on the "Let's blame my insecurities" too quick imo. If she stopped and listened, I get the feeling she'd understand just why this bothered Marten outside of "stupid ****". Because really, if she got it, this -wouldn't- be stupid, I'd think. If she slowed down a bit, not only would she not expect herself to get better immediately (which helps her get better quicker, oddly), and she reduces the chances of stupid arguments escalating due to her not giving him time to explain what's going on. Saying she can't get over her insecurities not only feels like a bit of a cop-out (I am just not seeing how she'd be tying her insecurities to him being angry about her ignoring what he said specifically.) She's not admitting fault so much as saying her insecurities are at fault. And even then, she's not giving herself time to try changing it past the first time its tested. Saying you can't after screwing up once makes me think that she's trying to be better immediately, which almost -anyone- on the cast could tell her just plain doesn't happen.

[Glass Mouse]

I can see your points. To me, however, this is not the first time she's made that "promise".

Granted, maybe it's just me, but whenever I hear an apology, I expect there to be at least an implicit promise of future betterment. Otherwise, the apology is just insincere. Also, I'm pretty sure she has explicitly promised to be less jealous sometime in the past. I specifically remember a deal something along the lines of "if you can flirt with Tai, I should be able to flirt with other girls". And the first night the gang hung out with Marigold, Dora was actively trying to better her ways (she even talked to Faye about it and asked for feedback, remember?).

So, well... The whole attempt at "bettering herself" isn't as new as that promise to Marten. She has tried - and failed repeatedly.
Of course, that's not to say that she'll keep failing; or even that she's tried hard enough (the whole "if you want it enough, you'll do it" thing).
But it's not completely new.

And even if it was... Realizing your own unwillingness to change and then taking the consequences still counts for something - even if actually changing would be a better solution.

[Coidzor]

It seems more like she's made empty promises that she just forgot about when it actually mattered and then she finally became aware of this somewhere between running out of the apartment and coming back.

[Starbuck_II]

I realized something horrible: they have to change their facebook statuses now.

[Glass Mouse]

It seems more like she's made empty promises that she just forgot about when it actually mattered and then she finally became aware of this somewhere between running out of the apartment and coming back.

Dunno. She seemed pretty sincere here.

[Weimann]

Rereading the page, I am suddenly visited by the idea that Marten might blow the hell up and rage in the next page.

He might also just sit stunned for 2 hours straight.

Seriously, that expression is creepy.

[Coidzor]

Rereading the page, I am suddenly visited by the idea that Marten might blow the hell up and rage in the next page.

He might also just sit stunned for 2 hours straight.

Seriously, that expression is creepy.

Ooo, I hadn't considered him turning out to be the killer instead of Hanners!

Dunno. She seemed pretty sincere here.

All I see is a strip comically highlighting her thoughtlessness.

[VanBuren]

Ooo, I hadn't considered him turning out to be the killer instead of Hanners!

No, see he starts the killing and Hanners joins in.

That's how the relationship starts.

[Tirian]

Rereading the page, I am suddenly visited by the idea that Marten might blow the hell up and rage in the next page.

That's what I'm hoping for. He could walk out the door and continue to let everybody else dictate the terms of every facet of his life, or he can take the reins. I hope he has something on his mind right now, and I hope he says it tomorrow.

[Devigod]

Ooo, I hadn't considered him turning out to be the killer instead of Hanners!

Partners in crime to the end, those two...

[SaintRidley]

All I see is a strip comically highlighting her thoughtlessness.

And I just see a strip that shows that for all she tries to do to fix herself, she falls right back into her pattern so easily because it's become that fundamental an aspect of her self.