The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

[ViperMagnum357]

I assume we'd incorporate the 3.5 update booklet for FF? Not that it fixed everything, but it's a start...

It is literally 2 pages, updating the DR, Construction details for Constructs, and Swarm space/reach. Compare that to the MM 2 update, which has 7 pages of stuff, and radically alters a number of critters that play very differently as a result.

[Thurbane]

It is literally 2 pages, updating the DR, Construction details for Constructs, and Swarm space/reach. Compare that to the MM 2 update, which has 7 pages of stuff, and radically alters a number of critters that play very differently as a result.

Wow..OK. I think I was getting the FF update/errata and MM2 stuff mixed up.

[javcs]

Yeah, the update booklet (for most books, to be fair) is pretty underwhelming.

And, okay, I get that they didn't want to reprint everything for 3.5, but still. It's the MM2 and Fiend Folio. They'd still have made money on them.
They actually did a decent job for the update booklets with some of the Faerun splats. I just wish they'd done half as much for some of the non-campaign setting specific books.



Edit: If we want 3.0 books that didn't get reprinted or a proper update ... we're going to have to work out the changes ourselves.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Much as I'd love to see this thread go through Savage Species, I fear such an endeavor would result in madness of a most unpoetic nature.

[StevenC21]

I think rating Savage Species would turn us into beasts, more slavering and vicious than the mightiest demon and more insane than Eldritch creatures from the far realm.

I vote LA -0 on Savage Species.

[No brains]

I'm kind of curious about Savage Species because of how jankin' strong Feral and Insectile seemed when I was a newbie.

I'm also curious about Fiend Folio because IIRC Glimmerskin is in that and its gag is to cling on to PCs.

Basically I like weird stuff.

How about Drow of the Underdark? I think it is short and I'd like to see if the +8 Str +8 Con Lolth-Touched template is really worth +1.

[Inevitability]

Much as I'd love to see this thread go through Savage Species, I fear such an endeavor would result in madness of a most unpoetic nature.

If we are doing savage species I will skip the appendices for the sole purpose of not having to rate dozens of anthropomorphic animals.

[unseenmage]

If we are doing savage species I will skip the appendices for the sole purpose of not having to rate dozens of anthropomorphic animals.

Except those are some of the most oft utilized bits of the book. One imagines their inclusion to be helpful to those most needing such help.

[Inevitability]

Except those are some of the most oft utilized bits of the book. One imagines their inclusion to be helpful to those most needing such help.

I know, I was mostly being melodramatic.

If we do savage species then yes I will review the animals, but I won't like it. :P

[unseenmage]

I know, I was mostly being melodramatic.

If we do savage species then yes I will review the animals, but I won't like it. :P

My apologies, 'round these parts telling the melodrama from the drama can be a challenge.

And fear not, hardly any of us will like it.

[Sutr]

I dont know slapping LA on the bat might make my day.

[liquidformat]

My apologies, 'round these parts telling the melodrama from the drama can be a challenge.

And fear not, hardly any of us will like it.

Do we have a color for melodramatic? If not might I suggest violet or plum if they don't have usage?

Also anthropomorphic animals, Feral, and Insectile are probably the best parts of that book.

[Zaq]

I mean, if we did SS, we’d be skipping all the “monsters as class” entries since they’re all from MM1 and we’ve properly LA’d all of them already, right?

[unseenmage]

I mean, if we did SS, we’d be skipping all the “monsters as class” entries since they’re all from MM1 and we’ve properly LA’d all of them already, right?

On the other hand those creatures might need a re evaluation seeing how much we've all learned since then. And how many more community members are involved now.

[Caelestion]

That sounds like an open invitation to power creep.

[unseenmage]

That sounds like an open invitation to power creep.

Define power creep. Because if it's an acceptance that the game itself had a different standard between its inception to its conclusion that sounds perfectly natural.

[liquidformat]

Define power creep. Because if it's an acceptance that the game itself had a different standard between its inception to its conclusion that sounds perfectly natural.

I think he is calling power creep the idea that our LA expectations have maybe changed from when we evaluated MMI to now; honestly I think there are maybe a hand full in MMI that might move from their original rating. An example would be the troll, however, I am not sure if that should be called power creep or just having a better handle on things after evaluating so many monsters.

[Lapak]

I think he is calling power creep the idea that our LA expectations have maybe changed from when we evaluated MMI to now; honestly I think there are maybe a hand full in MMI that might move from their original rating. An example would be the troll, however, I am not sure if that should be called power creep or just having a better handle on things after evaluating so many monsters.

I don't know if it's a better handle as much as a gradual evolution around the definition of +0 and where the line between it and +1 belongs. I'm willing to bet that if we re-scored everything up to now nothing would change but flipping a few monsters from one of those ratings to the other.

[Inevitability]

I mean, if we did SS, we’d be skipping all the “monsters as class” entries since they’re all from MM1 and we’ve properly LA’d all of them already, right?

Power creep discussions aside, those 'monsters as class' entries are not monster statblocks and can't cleanly be 'reduced' in ECL (at least the ones without dead levels), therefore they're outside the scope of this thread.

I've repeatedly said that people who think a prior monster was poorly LA-assigned can bring it up for re-evaluation, but going past a few dozen MM1 critters without changing anything for most of them is a waste of time.

[Inevitability]

Yuan-Ti, Psionic

The final monster of the XPH: a psionified version of everyone's favorite snake-people. There's variants for all three of the MM1's yuan-ti, which I'll go over one by one.

Psionic Pureblood

The 4 HD pureblood originally got +0 LA, for being boring but barely acceptable tier 4ers. I'm not sure if they'd make the cut for +0 LA if reviewed now, but the psionic pureblood's way better magic (at-will Psionic Charm, at-will Psionic Daze, various 1/day save-or-loses) make me believe that those at least deserve +0.

Psionic Halfblood

An impressively wide range of PLAs, but this still suffers from the halfblood's original flaws (grapple attacks, but with 7 HD and no better physical strength than an orc). It's worth taking over the regular version, but still -0 LA (interested in arguments for +0 LA though).

Psionic Abomination

9 RHD and some bigger SLAs (up to 1/day Baleful Polymorph) to go with it. Honestly, this should work at +0 even if it's on the lower end.

[DeTess]

The pureblood seems fine at +0, but I think an argument could be made for both others at +0 as well. Both get a rather wide variety of psi-like abilities in addition to generally inflated stats. The abomination in particular gets crowd control, utility and damage among its at-wills, and he gets baleful polymorph pretty much on-curve (as it's a decent 5th level spell). The only thing really hurting them is that their psionics wouldn't really scale well at higher levels (If I'm not completely mistaken about how the psi-likes would work), but even then the battery of psi-likes and the couple of other goodies they get look like class features to me.

If I find time, I'll try to do a comparison with warlock and/or dragonfire adept as those seem to be the closest comparison points.

for the record, my current votes are +0 for the pureblood and abomination, and abstaining on the half-blood for now.

[javcs]

Concur on psionic pureblood being +0 ... though on the lower end, I think.
Also concur with the non-psionic pureblood getting reassessed as -0.


Half blood and abomination are both -0. They have too many RHD for what they give and way too many RHD to take advantage of their really rather good mental stats.

[Prime32]

Can we take the shulassakar into account? Eberron couatl-themed variant that gets:

• Fly speed 60ft (good) for all abominations, and as one of the variant abilities available to halfbloods.
• Proficiency with longbows and composite longbows.
• Knight Training as a bonus feat (prereq for the Argent Fist PrC).
• Favored class of ranger for purebloods, and cleric for the others.

[ViperMagnum357]

I will go LA +0 for Psionic Pureblood, LA -0 for standard Pureblood, LA -0 for both types of Halfblood, and LA +0 for both Abomination variants.

Pureblood by itself is meh, way below what I would accept at ECL 4. Psionic variant becomes decent with at-will Charm, even if narrow. I think there is enough there to make a decent skill-y character and party face, though I would not hold my breath for much more.

Halfblood is...not good. Net abilities are on par, but the natural AC is low and the abilities are mediocre and do not scale, while the variants do not make up the distance. Regular halfblood is worse.

Abomination is interesting-net abilities are well above par, natural AC is good; low speed, but three movement modes naturally, a nice suite of PLAs including a seriously buffed Charm that lasts for days. Natural bite attack with strong enough Poison to build around, Improved Grab at same size with Constrict, and full BAB. Getting nine levels deep into 2 + Int for skills puts a serious crimp into a skill monkey, but you are still getting 7 skill points per RHD even if you leave Int at 10, so you can work with it. Overall, I think it holds up to its ECL. I would say the same for the non-psionic variant, even if it is a little weaker.

[Efrate]

+0, -0, +0.
Pure blood is okay if not exciting. It is on par.

Half blood is too little for too many hd.

Abomination is just +0. Despite HD it's whole package is pretty solid and it has a bunch of very nice slas. One or two less and it goes to -0.

[IraWolf]

I more or less concur with the LAs given so far. Pureblood is definitely better as a psionic version; the usefulness of an at-will Psionic Charm just can't be ignored. +0 for the Psionic Pureblood (If anyone was curious -0 for OG Pureblood seems about right).

Likewise, an easy -0 for the unloved middle child, and +0 for the Psionic Abomination. I'm not really too sure I'd want to play a +0 LA Abomination, personally, it's likely on the weaker end of +0, but I don't think it's weak enough to warrant a -0 rating. If I had to pick between a Half-Elf of some sort or an Abomination with all of its HD...I'd probably pick the Abomination.

On an unrelated note, if we're talking about what book to do next, I think a good pick would be either FF I as others have been suggesting, or (and I know I'm DEEPLY in the minority here) the Miniatures Handbook. There are enough interesting options for PC characters (Ramedeen, Scaled Stalker, and Protectar especially come to mind) for the Miniatures Handbook to be a cool place to start. Besides, the book as-written actually kind of intends for all of those monsters to be "PCs" in that they're meant for what is basically a wargame using modified 3.5e rules. So they're a very good pick for LA analysis. :D

[Thurbane]

On an unrelated note, if we're talking about what book to do next, I think a good pick would be either FF I as others have been suggesting, or (and I know I'm DEEPLY in the minority here) the Miniatures Handbook. There are enough interesting options for PC characters (Ramedeen, Scaled Stalker, and Protectar especially come to mind) for the Miniatures Handbook to be a cool place to start. Besides, the book as-written actually kind of intends for all of those monsters to be "PCs" in that they're meant for what is basically a wargame using modified 3.5e rules. So they're a very good pick for LA analysis. :D

I would very happily throw a vote behind Miniatures handbook, and have suggested it in the past.

[StevenC21]

We should do the Epic Levels Handbook.

Yes, there'll be many LA -0s, but then we'll be all done with the SRD!

[IraWolf]

We should do the Epic Levels Handbook.

Yes, there'll be many LA -0s, but then we'll be all done with the SRD!

The ONLY thing I can fathom getting more than a -0 are the templates (Demilich, Pseudonatural and Paragon templates), the Ha-Naga (20 HD, casts spells as a 21st level sorcerer), MAYBE the Mercane, and the Worm That Walks (similar to a ha-naga, casts spells at-level as a wizard),

[javcs]

The ONLY thing I can fathom getting more than a -0 are the templates (Demilich, Pseudonatural and Paragon templates), the Ha-Naga (20 HD, casts spells as a 21st level sorcerer), MAYBE the Mercane, and the Worm That Walks (similar to a ha-naga, casts spells at-level as a wizard),

Worm That Walks is a template, too, I'm pretty sure.

Actually, some of the dragons might get +0s. Specifically, the ones that have level 20/21+ racial casting.
Likewise, the Elder Titan is a possibility for +0.
Because Epic Spells care more about your skill ranks and modifier than Caster Level.


Mercane is a -0, IMO.

The ... what's it called, the Brain Collector? might get a +0, too. Though, I suspect it's more likely to get a -0*.
The one that gets racial spellcasting based on the number of brains it's eaten, but IIRC there's no explicit limit on the number of brains it can eat.



But yeah ... mostly -0s all around.