OOTS #1173 - The Discussion Thread

[JumboWheat01]

Gonna have to get the army up and running if they ever hope of slaying a tree that big for a new table.

[Jasdoif]

Gonna have to get the army up and running if they ever hope of slaying a tree that big for a new table.

I think this is a job for Hew the Adamant and the Arbor Appropriators, actually.

[HandofShadows]

When someone uses the rules to abuse, use the rules right back and beat them at their own game. A great idea Giant.

[Schroeswald]

Gonna have to get the army up and running if they ever hope of slaying a tree that big for a new table.

And of course the nearest tree of that size is up North in Monster Hollow with all the other most dangerous monsters (I hear that a Lich and an unimaginably powerful thing is there too!).

[WindStruck]

In the first panel of the second page, curly-haired vampire has already misted to flee. She realized way before Gonthor what was happening.

Hey, that is a good catch! It's hard to spot at first...

[Hekko]

if expect him to send less, less spell slots means using one to talk to his mother is a large chunk of resources, the higher level he gets the less valuable those low level spell slots even are so having more sendings taking them up becomes a non issue since he can always convert them into healing

He could have Sent to her once but every day; twice if circumstances allowed. She is very important to him.

sigdi knows he cant come back home so maybe didnt bother filling him in on the really heavy stuff

Perhaps, but I don't believe it.

[Fyraltari]

In the first panel of the second page, curly-haired vampire has already misted to flee. She realized way before Gonthor what was happening.

Hey, that is a good catch! It's hard to spot at first...

She's getting better at this, last time she ran.

My money is on her surviving this book, and vampirism infestation becoming something of a long-term-but-not-apolyptic problem for the Dwarven Lands* thus fullfilling the prophecy to "bring death and destruction for us all".

*She may not be high level enough to cast Malack's vampirization accelerator

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Also could somebody be kind enough o tell me what "pursuant" means?

"In accordance to" - i.e. "as per the rule"

It is the thing and the whole of the thing. Scones and stones and dwarves, are we really suuuuuuuuuuuure the Giant doesn't read Pratchett?

You do realize that all British royalty is coronated upon the Stone of Scone, right? I.e. Pratchett is making a reference, as he is wont to do?

Scones are very Scottish (I hear), which of course makes them quite dwarven, on the basis of the "dwarves are scottish" trope, which is in effect in OotS.

Grey Wolf

[Lheticus]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0305.html

what accent?

RGAHFRGAHFLRGLPLZMGARGITYFLARGITYDAHAAA...

...Touché. XD

[Doug Lampert]

Fair enough, though it was 4 Sendings a week--not that 100 words is all that much for explaining things either, but after a few decades of being gone I'm sure at some point an explanation of why he was gone would have come up, no?

I'm not much concerned with minor continuity errors or things like that, personally, I'm just saying, I think that's what GregTD was saying earlier.

It wasn't decades, at the time that the OotS started, Durkon was much lower level, 4 sendings at once is a high level cleric's action. Per class and level geekery, Durkon was level 8 at comic's start. Which was less than 2 years ago in comic, and much closer to back at Azure City. At that point sending was one of his highest level spells.

Assuming that he was leveling while adventuring with Roy, he'd almost certainly been able to cast sending for only a short time when the comic started.

[HalfTangible]

He could have Sent to her once but every day; twice if circumstances allowed. She is very important to him.



Perhaps, but I don't believe it.

Durkon said earlier that he prepared 4 Sending spells when Tarquin captured Roy because he's been using the spell to talk to Sigdi once a week. (I read 1152 for unrelated reasons earlier today)

My thoughts on the matter were that he prepares Sendings on a day of the week where he's not expecting to fight too hard, and if he's wrong he can just convert the Sendings into healing spells.

As for his dead Grandpappy, it's possible that Sigdi didn't tell him, but it's also possible she did and the High Priestess of Thor just didn't know.. We never saw him be sad because his Grandpappy died of (double) liver failure; as he told Malack, dying of alcohol-based diseases/illnesses technically counts as an honorable death.

[Deophaun]

Also also, time. To get to the table and strike, Durkon might need to spend another round, in which the final vote might have been cast.

Well, we have another problem then. Durkon hit the roof with the hammer, breaking through to daylight above. They first had to take valuable time to fight through the front gate, past whatever guardians and counter measures were there, to get into the chamber where Durkon could attack the ceiling, turning to stone in the process.

They could have circumvented all of that by simply breaking the ceiling from the surface, and Durkon would still be his fleshy self.

But, that I will give to Durkon being a dwarf and not thinking about the surface. And he probably didn't tell the rest of his party what the final portion of his plan was for Roy to point out the alternate route.

1) As others have mentioned, by the strictest definition of "unbroken", fixing the table (by whatever means) would not qualify.

Except the rules don't say "unbroken by the strictest defintion." It says "unbroken." A table that is unbroken by any definition satisfies the requirement. Make whole is valid.

Edit: Also, take exception to the idea that this is the "strictest" definition. "Un" does not mean "never." It means "not." A door that is unlocked was not never locked before. A knot that comes undone was not never done. In fact, for it to have been undone, that implies that it was done at some point.

If anything, I'm expecting Durkon to know how to hit trees...

However, I just assumed that since the table is surrounded by council members, Durkon didn't want to accidentally hit any of them.

Hitting something with a hammer you hold in your hand might risk casualties, but dropping a giant boulder right in the center of a group of people is safer?

[Grey Watcher]

I like how nonplussed the possessed cleric is, and how "plusplussed" the cleric becomes the moment the possession is over.

ETA: also, a moment of silence for so many speculations that how now been laid to rest.

No "flooding the place with sunlight"
No "the rest of the order can go in via the hole"
No "the hammer will hit Durkon and break him"

You were short lived, random speculations, but we enjoyed you nonetheless.

Grey Wolf

In fairness, the Sudden Skylight Hypothesis has been around for a fair but at this point, even before we saw the Council Chamber on screen.

My two cents on the meaning of "unbroken": It might get a bit too deep into the silly back and forth even for this comic, but I can totally imagine this sequence of events:

• Ex-Exarch repairs the table.
• Before voting can resume, the representative of Clan Cobalt points (as many of us has) out that "unbroken" might mean "has never been broken" not just "is not currently broken"
• The Council Leader calls for a vote on this interpretation of the rule, phrased along the lines of "Does 'unbroken' mean 'has never been broken' regardless of how undetectable the repairs?"
• The dominated members start to mindlessly vote "Yes." By the time the vampires realize what's happening and try to give them new instructions, there are too many Yesses and Durkon's impromptu masonry-based legal hack stands.

[Giggling Ghast]

Just a note on the "why aren't the rules written on Durkon's accent debate: the Scottish accent is specific to Durkon's clan. (Notice that none of the other elders speak with it. Nor does Thor.)

Why would they write the rules for the Council of Clans (plural) in a region-specific dialect?

In fairness, the Sudden Skylight Hypothesis has been around for a fair but at this point, even before we saw the Council Chamber on screen.

My two cents on the meaning of "unbroken": It might get a bit too deep into the silly back and forth even for this comic, but I can totally imagine this sequence of events:

• Ex-Exarch repairs the table.
• Before voting can resume, the representative of Clan Cobalt points (as many of us has) out that "unbroken" might mean "has never been broken" not just "is not currently broken"
• The Council Leader calls for a vote on this interpretation of the rule, phrased along the lines of "Does 'unbroken' mean 'has never been broken' regardless of how undetectable the repairs?"
• The dominated members start to mindlessly vote "Yes." By the time the vampires realize what's happening and try to give them new instructions, there are too many Yesses and Durkon's impromptu masonry-based legal hack stands.

Also, I'm willing to bet they don't just leave the vampires to loiter around the council chambers.

[GregTD]

If a Sending is like a phone call, then I can see a formal letter for the high priest. One does not simply dial up the Space Pope, after all.

No, the issue is Durkon's letter claims his mother and grandfather have no idea what's happening to him. Which is false, if he's talking to her every week

[Fyraltari]

"In accordance to" - i.e. "as per the rule"

Thank you, I appreciate it.

You do realize that all British royalty is coronated upon the Stone of Scone, right? I.e. Pratchett is making a reference, as he is wont to do?

Scones are very Scottish (I hear), which of course makes them quite dwarven, on the basis of the "dwarves are scottish" trope, which is in effect in OotS.

Grey Wolf

Yes I do realize that, but I won't allow reasonnableness to come between me and the fun I get of pointing to random trivial similarities between The Giant's and Sir Pterry's works.

[kivzirrum]

It wasn't decades, at the time that the OotS started, Durkon was much lower level, 4 sendings at once is a high level cleric's action. Per class and level geekery, Durkon was level 8 at comic's start. Which was less than 2 years ago in comic, and much closer to back at Azure City. At that point sending was one of his highest level spells.

Assuming that he was leveling while adventuring with Roy, he'd almost certainly been able to cast sending for only a short time when the comic started.

A fair point--though I'd say that makes it A) even more likely that Durkon would have brought it up to his mom, and B) Possible that he wasn't sending to her regular by the time of strip 305. So for those who care about inconsistencies, hey, there we go

[Peelee]

Also could somebody be kind enough o tell me what "pursuant" means?

"Pursuant to" means "according to."

[Tuhlore]

I think it's time to have a big group hug under the sunlight... With the vampire

[Grey_Wolf_c]

She's getting better at this, last time she ran.

My money is on her surviving this book, and vampirism infestation becoming something of a long-term-but-not-apolyptic problem for the Dwarven Lands* thus fullfilling the prophecy to "bring death and destruction for us all".

*She may not be high level enough to cast Malack's vampirization accelerator

If I were to make a prediction, I’d hazard a guess that she might be allowed to live and preach about Hel, as part of an arrangement where Hel allows dwarven souls to go to their proper place in exchange for getting a priest.

Grey Wolf

[Schroeswald]

If I were to make a prediction, I’d hazard a guess that she might be allowed to live and preach about Hel, as part of an arrangement where Hel allows dwarven souls to go to their proper place in exchange for getting a priest.

Grey Wolf

Problem being the dwarven soul thats stuck inside her might want something different.

[Fyraltari]

If I were to make a prediction, I’d hazard a guess that she might be allowed to live and preach about Hel, as part of an arrangement where Hel allows dwarven souls to go to their proper place in exchange for getting a priest.

Grey Wolf

Ooh, good one.

"Pursuant to" means "according to."

Thank you.

[Psyren]

no its not, its just suicide with extra steps

Still no. The big difference is the goal. They wouldn't be trying to die in that scenario - they would be trying to save the world, with the side-effect that dying also frees their souls from slavery (win-win.)

In any event, it's a moot point - this could only arise if the Godsmoot results in a completely hung jury that must somehow be resolved prior to the thing with Xykon that is forcing the question in the first place. Somehow I doubt that's what ends up happening.

[Cavenskull]

no its not, its just suicide with extra steps

You're so focused on suicide that you're overlooking the other potential outcome of such an assault. If the Dwarves succeed in the assault they'll have played a major role in saving the world. An honorable death just becomes the consolation prize for any dwarves who happen to die in the process.

Sometimes a goal is so important that it's worth risking even certain death to achieve it.

[Reboot]

If I were to make a prediction, I’d hazard a guess that she might be allowed to live and preach about Hel, as part of an arrangement where Hel allows dwarven souls to go to their proper place in exchange for getting a priest.

Grey Wolf

She still has at least four at the moment - the Exexarch, Curly, Nameless and the Frontarch (the last at the Godsmoot. One presumes that the tome of rules for that also forbids killing another High Priest the moment the moot ends)

In any event, it's a moot point - this could only arise if the Godsmoot results in a completely hung jury that must somehow be resolved prior to the thing with Xykon that is forcing the question in the first place. Somehow I doubt that's what ends up happening.

Well, Roy himself points out that even if THIS vote sticks with "save the world", there's still every chance they have another vote if it looks like the Snarl's going to get free. Hel(l), Loki actually argues that as part of his defence of the world (saying they'll have enough time to zap it if things come to it, might as well give the worms one more shot).

[D.One]

Who the heck prepares Make Whole?

The guy who expects to break the huge table...

Well, we have another problem then. Durkon hit the roof with the hammer, breaking through to daylight above. They first had to take valuable time to fight through the front gate, past whatever guardians and counter measures were there, to get into the chamber where Durkon could attack the ceiling, turning to stone in the process.

They could have circumvented all of that by simply breaking the ceiling from the surface, and Durkon would still be his fleshy self.

But, that I will give to Durkon being a dwarf and not thinking about the surface. And he probably didn't tell the rest of his party what the final portion of his plan was for Roy to point out the alternate route.

Except that, even if he is able to locate the precise area outside which is directly over the Council Hall, how could be sure about where to hit in order for the debris to fall over the table and not over some Council member, unless he was inside the room?

[MReav]

I guess Durkon knows more about mortal laws than divine ones, otherwise he wouldn't have been so surprised at Durkula's use of Control Weather to beat Thor's storm.

[Psyren]

You're so focused on suicide that you're overlooking the other potential outcome of such an assault. If the Dwarves succeed in the assault they'll have played a major role in saving the world. An honorable death just becomes the consolation prize for any dwarves who happen to die in the process.

Sometimes a goal is so important that it's worth risking even certain death to achieve it.

That.

Except the rules don't say "unbroken by the strictest defintion." It says "unbroken." A table that is unbroken by any definition satisfies the requirement. Make whole is valid.

Edit: Also, take exception to the idea that this is the "strictest" definition. "Un" does not mean "never." It means "not." A door that is unlocked was not never locked before. A knot that comes undone was not never done. In fact, for it to have been undone, that implies that it was done at some point.

How about this then - the time it would take a group of dwarven bureaucrats like the ones before us to come to a consensus on what "unbroken" actually means in the statute, is probably close to if not even longer than the time it would take for them to just replace the table, and thus the point is moot. Work better for you?

[Yuki Akuma]

Not to be a downer, but the correct grammar is "Mistress's".

...And the correct word choice in your sentence would be "spelling", not "grammar".

[Reboot]

Except the rules don't say "unbroken by the strictest defintion." It says "unbroken." A table that is unbroken by any definition satisfies the requirement. Make whole is valid.

Edit: Also, take exception to the idea that this is the "strictest" definition. "Un" does not mean "never." It means "not." A door that is unlocked was not never locked before. A knot that comes undone was not never done. In fact, for it to have been undone, that implies that it was done at some point.

So, would you describe this door as unbroken: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0400.html