3.X Ancillary Contest Chat Thread

[Zaydos]

So not really sure how to start one of these, but I'll go ahead.

Currently Brewing: VII - Community the Many as One

Contest	Winner	Entrant
The Darkness Consumes	Mr.Nobody	Vantaxian Powers
Follow the Arrow	Mr.Nobody	Thinking Big the Art of Throwing Rocks and People
It's All int he Blood	Jormengand	Racial Fighting Styles
City Slickers	Network	City Psicrystal
Beyond the Skies	Jormengand	Starstrikes
Power in Rhyme, Poetry Time	Vaynor	Song of the Open Road

And to get some discussion started: Still thinking about exactly how to do the voting (Just 1st-2nd-3rd, or take a note from the PF grab bag and throw in other categories), and about the best theme for the second contest. I chose darkness because it parallels the first Base Class Contest and because it is something that has a fair bit of breadth to work with while not being super broad.

I hope you all enjoy

[Jormengand]

DAAAAAAARKNEEEEESSSSSS.

*Ahem*

Well, then, let's have at it. Might use this contest as an excuse to finish up my momentum project by just making more abilities for it here. Hmm.

EDIT: Or horrors! I could make more horrors!

[dragonjek]

A new contest?
Interesting.
A new contest by Zaydos?
I must stare at the screen for several hours until I decide what idea to work on.

DAAAAAAARKNEEEEESSSSSS.

DAAAAAAARKNEEEEESSSSSS.

[Zaydos]

A new contest?
Interesting.
A new contest by Zaydos?
I must stare at the screen for several hours until I decide what idea to work on.

Something awesome I presume.

DAAAAAAARKNEEEEESSSSSS.

My answer to that

[Beelzebub1111]

Darkness in fiction is usually descttibed as "consuming" or "Overwhelming" but really, darkness is just a lack of photons. Light is really more of an overwhelming force, since it actually exists on a physical level.

[Jormengand]

Darkness in fiction is usually descttibed as "consuming" or "Overwhelming" but really, darkness is just a lack of photons.

...of a particular energy level that happens to produce visible light. An area with barely any red photons can be lighter than an area absolutely swarming with Gamma photons. [/Pedantry]

[Beelzebub1111]

even so, non-visible photons do not produce darkness. You throw non-visible photons into the mix with visible photons, it doesn't make darkess happen.

[Zaydos]

Deeper Darkness.

Ok, ironically that spell can be used to create light in absolute darkness, but the true absolute darkness spells aren't on the SRD.

More seriously I chose the name because my first choice (Beckons) was already used in the 1st Base Class Challenge and while I wanted a mirroring of themes it felt dirty to use the same verb so I went with the fantasy cliche.

I could, however argue something about how darkness overwhelms the human spirit and mind at time, bringing with it fear. So while light will beat back darkness, when you're alone in the dark that darkness overwhelms you. But that would be me justifying it dishonestly when the real reason was "What is the most fantasy cliche thing it can do?"

[Beelzebub1111]

I'm well aware of the metaphorical sense, but I was thinking, wouldn't it be interesting if a setting had Light as the all consuming destructive force.

[Zaydos]

I'm well aware of the metaphorical sense, but I was thinking, wouldn't it be interesting if a setting had Light as the all consuming destructive force.

If done well, but that can be said of most things. I've seen it done, I mean even Yu-Gi-Oh! GX did it, but I feel like I've usually seen it done badly (and I'm not counting Yugioh's because I didn't actually watch that season).

Now of course recognition that the same light which guides our eyes is the powerful gamma energy which can tear through cells is one way it could be done which could be fun.

[Beelzebub1111]

I have something of an idea, although it is kind of abstractly related to the darkness theme.

I Do have a formating question, should we do a header and preamble to the entry or could we just post a bunch of stuff. Also, what would the templates for Traits be? Is having traits as a prerequisite for feats or a component for spells kosher?

[Zaydos]

I have something of an idea, although it is kind of abstractly related to the darkness theme.

I Do have a formating question, should we do a header and preamble to the entry or could we just post a bunch of stuff. Also, what would the templates for Traits be? Is having traits as a prerequisite for feats or a component for spells kosher?

I would say a header/preamble would probably make what you're going for clearer, so unless there's a really strong mechanical connection people can see it's probably a good idea. For Traits (assuming these are Unearthed Arcana ones and not something else)

Name (possibly big
Description
Benefit: Stuff
Drawback: Stuff
Roleplaying Ideas: Stuff.

For the last question: Traits were not used for prerequisites for feats but were also optional rules from a book that really wasn't drawn upon by later books. That does not mean they cannot be. Book of Exalted Deeds used being an Archon as a component giving precedence for this kind of prerequisite component. In my opinion it's kosher and a potentially neat thing to do.

[MrNobody]

I like the idea of this contest! I thought about it for a while and i think i'll partecipate with a vestige and a bunch of heritage feats related to it.

Spoiler: Fluff

Show

Soon after the creation of the world, when everything was still possible, an envious and powerful shadow elemental named Vantax wanted the plane of shadows to become an inner plane like the other four elemental planes. To do so, he tried to gift some newly created mortals (drows at first) to gather enough power to achieve this goal. Vantax was near to it when an enraged Lolth discovered what he did to its beloved race and stroke back: she attacked Vantax directly using her full power and tortured him to death. What was left from the battered elemental gathered in a foul spirit, a vestige, known as Vantax the grudging shadow.
The power that Vantax gived to the mortals somehow survived and is still visible in some character that are born with a natural understanding of shadows and shadowcasting.

[1pwny]

Time to create an entire feat tree!

And I just copyrighted that idea. If any of you make a feat tree, then I'm going to disqualify you. Because, you know, I can totally do that. Totally. Yup. Mmhmm.

[Beelzebub1111]

I find myself going back and forth on whether this should be a trait or a template. It feels kind of small for a template, but also a bit powerful for a trait.

I'll post it as a trait when I get home from work and you can tell me what you think

EDIT: Put it up. I'm sort of working on another project right now, but I'll expand and add spells and feats soon. Maybe wednesday night or thursday.

[Zaydos]

I like the idea of this contest! I thought about it for a while and i think i'll partecipate with a vestige and a bunch of heritage feats related to it.

Spoiler: Fluff

Show

Soon after the creation of the world, when everything was still possible, an envious and powerful shadow elemental named Vantax wanted the plane of shadows to become an inner plane like the other four elemental planes. To do so, he tried to gift some newly created mortals (drows at first) to gather enough power to achieve this goal. Vantax was near to it when an enraged Lolth discovered what he did to its beloved race and stroke back: she attacked Vantax directly using her full power and tortured him to death. What was left from the battered elemental gathered in a foul spirit, a vestige, known as Vantax the grudging shadow.
The power that Vantax gived to the mortals somehow survived and is still visible in some character that are born with a natural understanding of shadows and shadowcasting.

I like this concept. I might be partial to vestiges/soulmelds/things that support non-core classes (if I was able to enter I'd go with a vestige + related mysteries possibly feats and/or soulmelds). Ok if I was entering I'd go overboard and then run into the problem that I'm not allowed to make a Shadowcaster-Incarnum theurge class or a Shadowcaster gish PrC. I tend to go overboard in contests. Fluff wise this is definitely better thought out than my abortive idea.

Time to create an entire feat tree!

And I just copyrighted that idea. If any of you make a feat tree, then I'm going to disqualify you. Because, you know, I can totally do that. Totally. Yup. Mmhmm.

You can do that Wait a moment... I look forward to seeing what it will be.

I find myself going back and forth on whether this should be a trait or a template. It feels kind of small for a template, but also a bit powerful for a trait.

I'll post it as a trait when I get home from work and you can tell me what you think

EDIT: Put it up. I'm sort of working on another project right now, but I'll expand and add spells and feats soon. Maybe wednesday night or thursday.

I can't help but wonder what falls under "magic which harms the soul". Is it all energy draining effect and those spells which specifically do something to the soul? What about death effects or negative energy?

[Beelzebub1111]

I can't help but wonder what falls under "magic which harms the soul". Is it all energy draining effect and those spells which specifically do something to the soul? What about death effects or negative energy?

Death effects and negative energy affect the body. Soul destroying and affecting spells are going to be defined in Black Magic.

[ezkajii]

Is this contest mainly for new instances of existing mechanics, or would entirely new gameplay mechanics/systems be allowed as well?

[Zaydos]

Is this contest mainly for new instances of existing mechanics, or would entirely new gameplay mechanics/systems be allowed as well?

There was a Base Class Challenge, there were PrC challenges, Monster contests, but the only Misc. contest was the Pathfinder Grab Bag which ended up being primarily PrC + Monsters anyway so I wanted to make something for other pieces of homebrew, for the smaller stuff that lets you customize a character. So while the intent was largely to build on existing mechanics, I'd feel off just flat-out saying no to something new, in my opinion the best thing about the contests are that they encourage homebrew, encourage creativity, and foster camaraderie so it seems wrong to stifle it by not allowing something out there.

I can't make a promise for what the voters will do, but that's up to the voters.

[sengmeng]

I'm thinking of doing a bloodline. Are bloodlines okay?

[Zaydos]

I'm thinking of doing a bloodline. Are bloodlines okay?

If there's not already a contest for it I'm liable to say yes; there might be changes/refinements later on, or possibly a branching of the contest but for now I want to just foster some friendly competition/creativity, and left things with few hard 'no's to let people expand and see what niches people thought needed filling. Later iterations might prove more restrictive, but only if the community seems to think they should be.

Bloodlines are one thing I personally didn't even consider, but are perfectly up this contests theme.

Things I have thought about:

Racial Substitution Levels: I'd give these a yes without hesitation.

Variant Base Class: I'd give this a no as too close to a base class.

Alternate Class Features: I'd give this a yes, and then note to myself that it's ultimately the same thing as the above since the variant classes usually don't have that many features changed. Well ok, ACFs are equivalent to a lot of the official variant classes, things like full class fixes and Sublime variant base classes go far and beyond most ACFs.

Magic Item(s): In a way this perfectly fits the theme of the contest (magic items are one of the small parts of your character that you customize and change in game), and in a way they don't at all (magic items aren't actually part of your character). That said I'd say yes, even if it made me

Race(s): These feel like they're on the same level as your class and like they shouldn't be in. The more I think about it rationally, though, the more I have to admit they fit (they don't have a contest of their own, they have nowhere near the impact as your class) but emotionally I dislike them. That said I'd allow them even if it makes me . Making me doesn't matter the most, since I won't be voting except in a tie, and after saying this would be trying to curb that emotional gut reaction.

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I will also note that in my original (scrapped) conceptualization the contest was going to be specifically for non-SRD subsystems i.e. Invocations, Mysteries, Soulmelds, Vestiges, Maneuvers, etc. Before making the contest I made the decision to widen it because the other was too restrictive and discouraged creativity and also seemed mean to the non-subsystem using classes, and non-core spellcasters. So some things on my part are irrationally carried over from that.

[Beelzebub1111]

Added a few frameworks. just to give a sneak peek of what I have planned

[Temotei]

There was a Base Class Challenge, there were PrC challenges, Monster contests, but the only Misc. contest was the Pathfinder Grab Bag which ended up being primarily PrC + Monsters anyway so I wanted to make something for other pieces of homebrew, for the smaller stuff that lets you customize a character. So while the intent was largely to build on existing mechanics, I'd feel off just flat-out saying no to something new, in my opinion the best thing about the contests are that they encourage homebrew, encourage creativity, and foster camaraderie so it seems wrong to stifle it by not allowing something out there.

Well, there was the MUHA, but that's inconsistent and generally full of large projects...so the point stands, I guess.

I miiiiight participate. Not sure yet. I have an idea or two but not sure how I'll flesh it out exactly yet and whether I want to at the moment.

[MrNobody]

Posted my entry: it may still need some refinement (PEACH is super appreciated) but its done.
Since also racial substitution levels are now allowed i may also add some themed drow shadowcaster substitution levels.

[Kazyan]

Would a magical location count for this?

[Zaydos]

Would a magical location count for this?

My misgivings for this are more than for magic items (magical locations are more of plot devices than character building pieces) but I'll say yes. This is one of those "really seeing how things go here" ones.

Posted my entry: it may still need some refinement (PEACH is super appreciated) but its done.
Since also racial substitution levels are now allowed i may also add some themed drow shadowcaster substitution levels.

Well if you want a PEACH from me...

Spoiler

Show

Looking over the vestige the Shadow Evocation ability is potentially scary. Remember that with Improved you can get access to 5th level vestiges at Lv 7 so this is actually a huge ability, especially since it lets you spam things like Stone Shape (even if not stone shape in particular) and abilities where the Save to Disbelieve don't particularly matter (though a lot of those are used on objects which means 20% effectiveness, but if usable out of combat). It also, as written, allows at-will SMIV for elementals.

Shadow Mastery on the other hand is more likely to be disadvantageous than not and probably could have the -4 part removed and just leave it as a circumstantial +1.

Looking at the feats Vantaxian Heritage is feat tax type feat, it's still better than Skill Focus at least... for a drow. Shroud and Legacy I'd make the drow bonus +2 CL because they have +2 LA. Vantaxian Resistance is a so-so feat but usable. Vantaxian Body looks like the one that makes these worth taking, but with its standard action activation you need 3 or 4 other feats to make it worthwhile even as a drow; I'd cut the activation action to Swift and maybe make a feat that grants extra daily uses.

[MrNobody]

Looking over the vestige the Shadow Evocation ability is potentially scary. Remember that with Improved you can get access to 5th level vestiges at Lv 7 so this is actually a huge ability, especially since it lets you spam things like Stone Shape (even if not stone shape in particular) and abilities where the Save to Disbelieve don't particularly matter (though a lot of those are used on objects which means 20% effectiveness, but if usable out of combat). It also, as written, allows at-will SMIV for elementals.

Shadow Mastery on the other hand is more likely to be disadvantageous than not and probably could have the -4 part removed and just leave it as a circumstantial +1.

Looking at the feats Vantaxian Heritage is feat tax type feat, it's still better than Skill Focus at least... for a drow. Shroud and Legacy I'd make the drow bonus +2 CL because they have +2 LA. Vantaxian Resistance is a so-so feat but usable. Vantaxian Body looks like the one that makes these worth taking, but with its standard action activation you need 3 or 4 other feats to make it worthwhile even as a drow; I'd cut the activation action to Swift and maybe make a feat that grants extra daily uses.[/SPOILER]

Thanks Zaydos for the PEACH.
As i see it, Feign Elements is pretty balanced (i left Shadow mastery as it is written in the Shadow Elemental's description on purpose to balance it, but i think i'll lower the penalty to -2): it is true that can be abusable but with a very limited number of spells. Some of them can be abused out of combat but in this case i think time will balance this abuse.
Take stone shape (which is the one i used to explain what cannot be emulated but will be a good example): 1 standard action to move a certain amount of earth. With the umbral version it is 20% effective, so it moves 1/5 of the possible earth. To move the same amount of earth of a single casting of stone shape you'll have to use its emulated version 5 times, waiting 5 round from one use and the other, which means you'll need almost 3 minutes to emulate a single cast of the spell. Abusable, but if you are on the run maybe not optimal.
I see the problems with the elemental-spawning... maybe saying that the ability cannot be used again until the first effect is dismissed... or that a second use automatically dismisses the previous one?

For feats: Vantaxian Heritage... i'm thinking about raising the base bonus to +3 (it will basically become Skill focus (hide) + extra vision), but i think that having a +4 for drows could be to much. How about drows not improving the bonus but only their darkvision?
Mind that Shroud and Legacy both state "caster level for the spell-like abilities gained with this feat equals your character level +1." i, so is a +1, and applied only to those mysteries (since every feats grants a +1 only to the mysteries it gives).
Swift action is perfect: i was thinking about immediate, but it seemed too much, so i went to standard totally forgotting swift actions!

[Salasay]

Sooooo, my stuff is going to be related to a campaign setting I'm making called Paramýth, and the flavor's going to be hard to do without any background on the setting. Can I include bits of previously established fluff for the setting (mostly history stuff, really) to my entry without violating the "not posted elsewhere" rule? Also, how much is acceptable, 'cause I could ramble on into novel length about any setting related stuff if given the opportunity.

But yeah, shadow færy heritage feats. Can I include the monster/race (not sure which they're gonna be, but leaning towards high LA/Racial HD race) along with the feat chain?

[Zaydos]

Sooooo, my stuff is going to be related to a campaign setting I'm making called Paramýth, and the flavor's going to be hard to do without any background on the setting. Can I include bits of previously established fluff for the setting (mostly history stuff, really) to my entry without violating the "not posted elsewhere" rule? Also, how much is acceptable, 'cause I could ramble on into novel length about any setting related stuff if given the opportunity.

As long as the meat of the entry is new, for example with a vestige assuming its legend and mechanics are new, it should be fine. As for maximum length... you're talking to the person whose current base class contest entry might actually be novel length and if not is pretty close.

But yeah, shadow færy heritage feats. Can I include the monster/race (not sure which they're gonna be, but leaning towards high LA/Racial HD race) along with the feat chain?

A race is fine, a single monster that exists for giving some fluff a bit of crunch backbone is fine, a summonable creature/animal companion/familiar/construct that PCs could reasonably build would all be fine.

[Salasay]

Well, Malumbra are done. Can I get a PEACH on it?