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Thread: What do people hate?
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2009-10-15, 07:52 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2009
What do people hate?
As a new DM, I can't really tell when people *aren't* enjoying the adventure. So what are some common mistakes people make that bore the players?
Thanks!I cast Prismatic Ray on your puny plot hook!
Shiny avatar by Edwin.
Spoiler
I Am A: Neutral Good Elf Wizard/Cleric (2nd/1st Level)
Ability Scores:
Strength-14
Dexterity-14
Constitution-12
Intelligence-17
Wisdom-10
Charisma-11
Alignment:Neutral Good
Race:Elven
Primary Class:Wizard
Secondary Class:Cleric
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2009-10-15, 07:55 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2006
- Location
- Freeland, WA
Re: What do people hate?
Railroading. Giving a nudge in the right direction from time to time is fine and well, but forcing players along a storyline they don't care for often leads to misery and boredom.
Homebrew:The Reaper-The Wild MageAvatar by Zarah
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2009-10-15, 07:56 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2009
Re: What do people hate?
massive railroading
DMPCs
too much of either heavy RPing or Hack 'n Slash, depending on your group.
riddles
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2009-10-15, 07:56 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2009
- Location
- Mordor
- Gender
Re: What do people hate?
Railroading is a big one. If the PC goes outside your plot, and then get forced back into it, they don't like it. If they come up with a creative, out-of-the box way of solving a problem, reward them.
Ex. You are on a boat. You see a set of pale luminescent eyes peering at you from twenty feet away.
"I attack with my longbow!" (rolls)
...you miss.
"But I got a natural 20!"
...you still miss. That person is an important part of the plot. Stop killing my NPCs!
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2009-10-15, 07:57 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2007
- Location
- Mars
- Gender
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2009-10-15, 07:58 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2008
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2009-10-15, 08:01 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2008
- Location
- Poland
- Gender
Re: What do people hate?
Screwing with their characters without their consent. Changing their alignment, forcing them to take levels in this and that, causing paladins to fall, hacking off their limbs when regeneration is not easily available, raping them, et cetera.
Siela Tempo by the talented Kasanip. Tengu by myself.
Spoiler
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2009-10-15, 08:01 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2008
Re: What do people hate?
Blatant railroading.
No plot at all and the players have no clue what to do
Not giving the players the ability to play their character
Letting the players have their character be overbearing on everyone elses
impossible opponents
boringly easy opponents
not enough description
vividly Tolkienesque descriptions about everything and their shoes
immemorial npcs
annoyingly memorable npcs
GM pcs
lack of time for each character (especially when the group is divided for an extended period of time)
encounters that are painfully set up so only 1 or 2 characters can shine
f**king tier 1 characters in a group of tier 4-5s
f**king tier 4-5 characters in a group of tier 1s (note for this and the last one, only really a problem if one group or the other blatantly dominates the game so the other can't do anything)
Being a stickler for rules
Being too loose with the rules
GMing is a balancing act. When I started out I annoyingly asked everyone at the group what they liked and didn't like and begged them to be as candid and harsh as possible. Now I'm regarded as the only competent GM of the group.Last edited by Dienekes; 2009-10-15 at 08:04 PM.
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2009-10-15, 08:01 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2009
Re: What do people hate?
Thanks. :D
Is it railroading if I have a plot set, they totally derail the plot (read: killed my freaking NPCs again and started an international war), and have to live with the consequences of their actions (read: joined up with the Evil group under implied threat of violence)? Or should they be allowed to do nearly anything they like, without regard to consequence? Because... saying "okay, you're chaotic evil now" doesn't seem like enough. XDI cast Prismatic Ray on your puny plot hook!
Shiny avatar by Edwin.
Spoiler
I Am A: Neutral Good Elf Wizard/Cleric (2nd/1st Level)
Ability Scores:
Strength-14
Dexterity-14
Constitution-12
Intelligence-17
Wisdom-10
Charisma-11
Alignment:Neutral Good
Race:Elven
Primary Class:Wizard
Secondary Class:Cleric
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2009-10-15, 08:04 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2008
- Location
- NYC
- Gender
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2009-10-15, 08:05 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2009
Re: What do people hate?
I cast Prismatic Ray on your puny plot hook!
Shiny avatar by Edwin.
Spoiler
I Am A: Neutral Good Elf Wizard/Cleric (2nd/1st Level)
Ability Scores:
Strength-14
Dexterity-14
Constitution-12
Intelligence-17
Wisdom-10
Charisma-11
Alignment:Neutral Good
Race:Elven
Primary Class:Wizard
Secondary Class:Cleric
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2009-10-15, 08:07 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2007
- Location
- Norway
- Gender
Re: What do people hate?
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2009-10-15, 08:07 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2006
- Location
- Freeland, WA
Re: What do people hate?
Homebrew:The Reaper-The Wild MageAvatar by Zarah
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2009-10-15, 08:09 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2009
Re: What do people hate?
+1 railroading. Also, forced character stupidity or blindness. By this I mean a situation where the DM fails to inform players of things that would be blatantly obvious to anyone in the PC's situation, or rules that the character has done something boneheadedly stupid simply because the players have not explicitly stating they are not doing it.
Example of the forced character stupidity: My character, on a 20' wide balcony with a heavy stone railing, is taking cover behind the railing. An enemy fires at me, hits the cover, and blows away about a 3' wide stretch of the railing. I continue to cover behind the railing. On the following round, the monster shoots again, and the DM informs me that I've been hit because I was "taking cover" in the 3' section of destroyed railing. Apparently because I didn't explicitly state that I was going to shift 2' to the left to gain cover behind the undamaged railing, my character choose to stand in place and try to cover behind thin air. Duh.
Example of forced character blindness: characters hear a strange noise, and say they look around for the source of the noise. Monster is located on the ceiling. DM rules that the characters don't see the monster because they didn't specify they were looking at the ceiling.
In general, players get most upset when the DM arbitrarily forces their characters to act foolish or incompetent, or when he "steals" power from them by arbitrarily causing their abilities to fail. As DM, you never need to do this: players will act foolish and incompetent and fail in spectacular ways entirely without your intervention!
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2009-10-15, 08:09 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2008
Re: What do people hate?
Depending on the players (some just want to kick down doors and kill dragons) I would generally say make sure that they understand that their actions have consequences. (And rookie mistake. Always keep 3-4 separate plots in your notes, chances are your big one will crumble before your eyes as that annoyed mage gets bored with your villain and decides to disintegrate him)
If they kill the king, the royal family will be out to get them with all their vast resources. If they're going on a rampage across the country, well there are gods for a reason in the campaign world.
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2009-10-15, 08:17 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2009
- Location
- Fl
Re: What do people hate?
Lazy Tolkien plagiarism. Nothing makes a world more mundane (except setting it in medieval Europe, avoid that as well).
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2009-10-15, 08:20 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2009
Re: What do people hate?
Heh, I did the opposite. I took it on myself to write backstory for an entire universe before I proposed running a campaign. I thought to myself, if I can't write this stuff, what will I do with NPCs and plotlines?
Unfortunately, it leads to a lot of explaining as to what countries do what, and why. Meh, the price you pay, I guess.I cast Prismatic Ray on your puny plot hook!
Shiny avatar by Edwin.
Spoiler
I Am A: Neutral Good Elf Wizard/Cleric (2nd/1st Level)
Ability Scores:
Strength-14
Dexterity-14
Constitution-12
Intelligence-17
Wisdom-10
Charisma-11
Alignment:Neutral Good
Race:Elven
Primary Class:Wizard
Secondary Class:Cleric
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2009-10-15, 08:21 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2009
- Location
- Mordor
- Gender
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2009-10-15, 08:22 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2009
- Location
- Fl
Re: What do people hate?
No elfs, dwarfs orcs ect? Good job.
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2009-10-15, 08:31 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2008
Re: What do people hate?
Ehh, this is a bit loaded. Some groups want to have their dwarves and orcs. Hell some people even want to have elves for some ungodly reason. The trick is to not make them exactly like everyone else has made them. And be reasonable and believable with them.
If you're dwarves and elves hate each other, ok a bit bland. Tell me why they hate each other, and make it a good reason. If it's a good enough reason the blatant cliches aren't as bad.
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2009-10-15, 08:32 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2009
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2009-10-15, 08:48 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2008
- Location
- NYC
- Gender
Re: What do people hate?
Their new allies don't have to enforce anything. Your players just angered a swarm of Paladins, and they're being given a chance to survive, for a price. If they don't take it, don't force them to. Don't make the Paladins unkillable, nor homing: the tracking and the chasing and the fighting is another chance for players to escape, albeit on their own terms. The difference here is one between "you're not following my plot so
rocks fallPaladins kill you" and "you've made your choice, these are the consequences, deal with them as you will".
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2009-10-15, 08:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2008
- Gender
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2009-10-15, 08:51 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2009
Re: What do people hate?
Assuming everyone likes the same thing.
I swear, if I have to sit through another hack-and-slash module I will scream. Then again, I know most people I game with are quite glad to do modules, so I appreciate it when a DM asks the players their thoughts and trices to balance a bit for everyone.
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2009-10-15, 08:51 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2007
- Gender
Re: What do people hate?
Railroading
DMPCs
Riddles
You may note a common theme with these and most complaints thus far: the DM takes over and doesn't let PCs do what they want. Bad consequences for bad actions are fine, but forcing along a path, being the PC that does things for the real PCs, giving challenges with predetermined solutions, etc. are annoying.Last edited by ericgrau; 2009-10-15 at 08:52 PM.
So you never have to interrupt a game to look up a rule again:
My 3.5e Rules Cheat Sheets: Normal, With Consolidated Skill System
TOGC's 3.5e Spell/etc Cards: rpgnow / drivethru rpg
Utilities: Magic Item Shop Generator (Req. MS Excel), Balanced Low Magic Item System
Printable Cardstock Dungeon Tiles and other terrain stuff (100 MB)
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2009-10-15, 08:54 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2006
- Location
- Freeland, WA
Re: What do people hate?
DMPCs aren't always a bad idea. If the players all want to play meleers, having a skillbot/healer DMPC following them around and being useful is a grand idea.
Homebrew:The Reaper-The Wild MageAvatar by Zarah
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2009-10-15, 08:59 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2008
- Location
- Broken Damaged Worthless
Re: What do people hate?
And sometimes (mostly my group for some reason), the players really LIKE an NPC the DM has made, and so asks them to tag along and be with the party as party members. Really, I've had players drag NPCs along and force me to flesh them out into full characters who chill with the party and be party members. Strange, but true.
All that I say applies only to myself. You author your own actions and choices. I cannot and will not be responsible for you, nor are you for me, regardless of situation or circumstance.
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2009-10-15, 09:01 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2007
- Gender
Re: What do people hate?
Last edited by ericgrau; 2009-10-15 at 09:02 PM.
So you never have to interrupt a game to look up a rule again:
My 3.5e Rules Cheat Sheets: Normal, With Consolidated Skill System
TOGC's 3.5e Spell/etc Cards: rpgnow / drivethru rpg
Utilities: Magic Item Shop Generator (Req. MS Excel), Balanced Low Magic Item System
Printable Cardstock Dungeon Tiles and other terrain stuff (100 MB)
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2009-10-15, 09:01 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2008
- Location
- The great state of denial
Re: What do people hate?
Middle of combat rules changes that help the enemy.
Middle of combat rules changes that counteract other middle of combat rules changes to help out the enemy.Me: I'd get the paladin to help, but we might end up with a kid that believes in fairy tales.
DM: aye, and it's not like she's been saved by a mysterious little girl and a band of real live puppets from a bad man and worse step-sister to go live with the faries in the happy land.
Me: Yeah, a knight in shining armour might just bring her over the edge.
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2009-10-15, 09:03 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2009
- Location
- Maryland
- Gender
Re: What do people hate?
Remember, the plot is the DMs, but the characters belong to the players. You can set up the world however you like to make your cool adventure happen, but always, always, always remember that the players decisions are final on what their character does.
If it's something particularly stupid, they can and will face consequences in the world for their choice, but it's still their choice. If you take this aspect away from them, it *will* ruin the game.