The Index of the Giant's Comments IV - A Rich Source of Quotassium

[unbeliever536]

I think these two quotes are not covering anything that wasn't there in #666 already.

"...he knows he saw his mom..."

This is, in fact a dead contradiction of my interpretation of the "happy, fulfilling blur" from #666, and the only way to get it without the tweets is to assume that (1) he finished the jambalaya in the clouds and (2) he assumed that the jambalaya must have actually have been made by his mother, rather than that heaven had included some jambalaya that happened to taste just like what his mom used to make.

[Gwynfrid]

Exactly. This clarifies that he has actual memories (fuzzy though they may be) of all of his afterlife, not just the part before the gate. If we just went by 666, then you could argue that he doesn't remember anything concrete past the gate except vague ideas for a sword move.

"...he knows he saw his mom..."

This is, in fact a dead contradiction of my interpretation of the "happy, fulfilling blur" from #666, and the only way to get it without the tweets is to assume that (1) he finished the jambalaya in the clouds and (2) he assumed that the jambalaya must have actually have been made by his mother, rather than that heaven had included some jambalaya that happened to taste just like what his mom used to make.

We don't need the tweets to know that Roy remembers seeing his mom - with more detail than he would like, in fact. It's in #670. So between #666 and #670 we have a pretty complete picture. What's left is, where did he finish his food exactly? I know the Index has recorded a lot of tiny, tiny details already, but this would be a new record, I think.

[137beth]

I agree that the quotes add information that's not entirely clear in the comic.

[Peelee]

I agree that the quotes add information that's not entirely clear in the comic.

What information?

[DaggerPen]

Thread lurker coming out to say I definitely support the inclusion of the tweets, as I remembered both comics where he talked about his memory of the afterlife clearly and still didn't get that he had as detailed recollections as the tweets indicate (I had interpreted it as "knows he saw his family and that his mom got busy, because some things are too mindscarring to forget, but no real details beyond a vague blur of emotions").

I think it's less clear from the comic than the caster of a certain scrying orb, at least, and that's like the ur-example of why this index is a thing.

[Cizak]

Another lurker checking in to say that I don't think the tweets add anything that can't be interpreted from the comic. They weren't news to me.

With that said, I'm on the side of having too many quotes in the index rather than too few.

[Ron Miel]

I disagree. I don't think it's at all obvious from the comic. I spotted the apparent contradiction, and was actually about to ask the same question myself, when I saw it had been asked and answered. Without the tweet, I wouldn't have known the answer.

My opinion is that it should be included.

[Keltest]

In my opinion, it doesn't matter how "obvious" the comic makes it, only that it is explicit. If someone asks, we can point them to those exact lines on those exact pages to answer the question of how much he remembers without any need to bring up a tweet from the Giant. Its the same issue we had with the comic where the demigod priests all walked into the room; the information is there even if people aren't seeing it the first time.

[Peelee]

In my opinion, it doesn't matter how "obvious" the comic makes it, only that it is explicit.

This, i think, is one of the best delineations I've seen to detail why certain things are unanimously approved/rejected, and others are hotly debated. I feel that this, or a paraphrasing of it, should be included in the first post guidelines.

[littlebum2002]

Allow me to disagree entirely. People ask questions all the time: It proves nothing. There are many questions, because people will miss things in such a rich, complex, long story, not because the comic is unclear.

And this thread exists to answer those questions when they come up again later.

We don't need the tweets to know that Roy remembers seeing his mom - with more detail than he would like, in fact. It's in #670. So between #666 and #670 we have a pretty complete picture. What's left is, where did he finish his food exactly? I know the Index has recorded a lot of tiny, tiny details already, but this would be a new record, I think.

Someone has asked a question about this, presumably because it was unclear to that person.

Either:

A) This was the only person on the internet who has ever and who will ever think this issue was confusing, or
B) This question will come up again later.

Considering that there are already about 4-5 people in this very thread (myself included) who were helped by the tweets, I seriously doubt A is true. And when someone inevitably asks this question again, we have 2 options:

1) Have the relevant quotes indexed so that we can easily help this person, or
2) Spend an hour combing through Rich's old tweets to try and find the answers.

Since, again, this thread exists so that we don't have to do #2 (that sounded bad) whenever someone asks a question, I say we keep it.


I understand YOU aren't confused by it, but other people are. And judging by this thread alone, those who sound confused by it make up a significant minority, if not a majority. So presumably any new readers to the comic (or seasoned readers who are re-reading the strip at a later date) will fit a similar profile, in that a significant number of them will be helped by these tweets.

If there were only 1 person confused by it (even if that one person was me), I would vote to ignore it. But since that is not the case, any argument that "it's not confusing" is obviously only subjective, and not a universal fact, so it should be kept regardless of how clear it is to some people.

[Kalmegil]

Rich's tweets provide more information than comic 666. Comic 666 is a bit fuzzy on whether the elevator counts. It also says that beyond the gate is a just a blur (a big happy fulfilling blur). I interpreted that as meaning Roy did NOT remember he'd seen his mother.

While the word "blur" certainly leaves room for that interpretation, it also leaves room for the interpretation that specific people are not remembered. It is thus ambiguous, and the tweets clarify the ambiguity. Hence they provide additional information that was not in the comic.

If someone asks, pointing them to 666 leaves the ambiguity. The tweets should be included.

[Keltest]

Rich's tweets provide more information than comic 666. Comic 666 is a bit fuzzy on whether the elevator counts. It also says that beyond the gate is a just a blur (a big happy fulfilling blur). I interpreted that as meaning Roy did NOT remember he'd seen his mother.

While the word "blur" certainly leaves room for that interpretation, it also leaves room for the interpretation that specific people are not remembered. It is thus ambiguous, and the tweets clarify the ambiguity. Hence they provide additional information that was not in the comic.

If someone asks, pointing them to 666 leaves the ambiguity. The tweets should be included.

670 however does indicate that specific people are remembered, as well as enough detail to make him uncomfortable about what he learned of his mom.

[Gwynfrid]

Littlebum, of course I don't doubt that the question can come up again.

And when someone inevitably asks this question again, we have 2 options:

1) Have the relevant quotes indexed so that we can easily help this person, or
2) Spend an hour combing through Rich's old tweets to try and find the answers.

3) Point to the comic or comics that contain the explicit answer to the question.

Rich's tweets provide more information than comic 666. Comic 666 is a bit fuzzy on whether the elevator counts. It also says that beyond the gate is a just a blur (a big happy fulfilling blur). I interpreted that as meaning Roy did NOT remember he'd seen his mother.

I agree #666 on its own isn't enough, but if you add #670 I believe you have the full picture, unless you really worry about the elevator part, which wasn't the question in the first place.

In my opinion, it doesn't matter how "obvious" the comic makes it, only that it is explicit. If someone asks, we can point them to those exact lines on those exact pages to answer the question of how much he remembers without any need to bring up a tweet from the Giant. Its the same issue we had with the comic where the demigod priests all walked into the room; the information is there even if people aren't seeing it the first time.

Exactly right. As far as I can see, the combination of #666 and #670 makes the answer explicit - not more and not less than Rich's tweets.
The question on Twitter was this: "I thought Roy couldn't remember specifics of the afterlife". A possible answer is to point to Rich's tweets. Another, equivalent answer is: "Much is fuzzy (see #666), but he can remember certain specifics, such as what his mom what doing up there (see #670, panel 1)".

[Grey_Wolf_c]

1) Have the relevant quotes indexed so that we can easily help this person, or
2) Spend an hour combing through Rich's old tweets to try and find the answers.

If only that were true. But it is not - you can spend quite a bit of time looking through the OP of this thread for a quote you are sure it is there, fail to find it, use the search function of the forum/google, find it through it, then come back and check that, indeed, the quote is there but paraphrased in a way you did not expect or missing key words or in a different section. This has happened to me more than once - since the search function came back, I find Giant's post faster through the search function than through this thread.

In any case, I oppose adding the tweets because the primary source (666 & 670) are clear enough.

GW

[Kalmegil]

I did not see the references to 670. They weren't there when I read this discussion the first time, and I read it later on my phone and must have scrolled past them. That clears up the mom issue.

So I agree the fuzzy mom quote is answered by the comic and that tweet is unnecessary. The elevator issue still seems ambiguous to me, but I'm not sure it matters for everything, since the only thing that happened in the elevator was a joke and momjalaya-eating.

Explicitness and obviousness can be related. Some conclusions that have been described as "obvious" in fact require quite a few steps to extract from the comic, with implicit assumptions about, for example, SRD rules, that might not be warranted.

That's not in play at all here, but I wanted to weigh in on the general rule, too.

[Jasdoif]

In my opinion, it doesn't matter how "obvious" the comic makes it, only that it is explicit.

This, i think, is one of the best delineations I've seen to detail why certain things are unanimously approved/rejected, and others are hotly debated. I feel that this, or a paraphrasing of it, should be included in the first post guidelines.

I'm...not convinced there's actually general agreement on the concept

If only that were true. But it is not - you can spend quite a bit of time looking through the OP of this thread for a quote you are sure it is there, fail to find it, use the search function of the forum/google, find it through it, then come back and check that, indeed, the quote is there but paraphrased in a way you did not expect or missing key words or in a different section. This has happened to me more than once - since the search function came back, I find Giant's post faster through the search function than through this thread.

Do you happen to remember the details of which quotes and what keywords you were looking for?

[Peelee]

I'm...not convinced there's actually general agreement on the concept

Wheeeeeee!

[Jasdoif]

Looks like the tweets settled into vote-able range....So the tentative list is now:

The OotS Strips in Gygax Magazine Will Be in a Collection Someday	#1020	01/22/2016	Tentative, appears will be included without vote.
Blackwing's Explosion in #1020 is a Scroll Activation Mishap Furthermore, the writing on the scroll reads "STRIP #970 P5 ESTABLISHES THAT MAGIC ITEMS EXPLODE WHEN ACTIVATED IMPROPERLY".	#1020	01/22/2016	Tentative, appears will be eligible for vote.
On the Ephemerality of Memories from the Afterlife Roy can remember anything that happened in the clouds, and the rest is "fuzzy" but not completely forgotten.	#1022	02/08/2016	Tentative, appears will be eligible for vote.

---

Would that be a useful thread to supplement this one? A thread whose purpose is to cross-reference and index specific strips where questions are answered?

The subject's come up before, but I'm not sure there's any way to tell how useful it'd be unless someone actually makes it.

[ReaderAt2046]

I vote to include all of them.

[Jasdoif]

I vote to include all of them.

Your support for the entries is noted; but be aware that we're still three weeks or two quotes (whichever comes first) from the next update cycle.

[ORione]

I got the impression from 666 that all Roy could remember from beyond the gates were warm feelings and a vague idea for a sword trick. So I took the mom comment in 670 as a joke. The tweets clarified things for me, so I support their inclusion.

[Keltest]

I got the impression from 666 that all Roy could remember from beyond the gates were warm feelings and a vague idea for a sword trick. So I took the mom comment in 670 as a joke. The tweets clarified things for me, so I support their inclusion.

Not sure why the mom comment cant be both a joke and informative. To feel uncomfortable about it he would have to remember that something happened at his mom's place, specifically, to make him uncomfortable.

[ORione]

Not sure why the mom comment cant be both a joke and informative. To feel uncomfortable about it he would have to remember that something happened at his mom's place, specifically, to make him uncomfortable.

It could be a joke and informative, or it could be one without being the other. Since I already assumed that Roy did not remember his mom, I inferred that it was not informative.

[Keltest]

It could be a joke and informative, or it could be one without being the other. Since I already assumed that Roy did not remember his mom, I inferred that it was not informative.

So you made an assumption that did not line up with what the comic said?

I mean sure, ok, its easy to miss, but like I mentioned earlier, it is explicit in the text, and we can point to it and say "he remembers his mother and enough to make him deeply uncomfortable."

[Cizak]

It could be a joke and informative, or it could be one without being the other. Since I already assumed that Roy did not remember his mom, I inferred that it was not informative.

1234567890

But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?

[ORione]

I thought that the text was a joke, so I didn't think that my assumptions contradicted the text. Pointing to the text would not have changed my mind. The tweets changed my mind. So, there is at least one case in which the tweets helped someone understand the comic better. Presumably two, including the person who asked the question that the Giant was answering.

Is it really that wrong to assume that someone would say something just to be funny in The Order of the Stick?

[DaggerPen]

I thought that the text was a joke, so I didn't think that my assumptions contradicted the text. Pointing to the text would not have changed my mind. The tweets changed my mind. So, there is at least one case in which the tweets helped someone understand the comic better. Presumably two, including the person who asked the question that the Giant was answering.

Is it really that wrong to assume that someone would say something just to be funny in The Order of the Stick?

Chiming in to add that before the tweet I honestly thought that part of the punchline with the joke about Roy's mom was that even though he remembered nothing else beyond the gates but a vague sense of satisfaction, seeing his mom as an attractive young woman with a half naked man leaving her house was just that mind-scarring.

[Emanick]

While I think it's reasonable to have believed that Roy remembered nothing specific about Celestia after coming back to life until #1022, I also think we can point to the text of #1022 itself when anyone is confused. The tweets aren't worth archiving, IMO.

[Keltest]

I thought that the text was a joke, so I didn't think that my assumptions contradicted the text. Pointing to the text would not have changed my mind. The tweets changed my mind. So, there is at least one case in which the tweets helped someone understand the comic better. Presumably two, including the person who asked the question that the Giant was answering.

Is it really that wrong to assume that someone would say something just to be funny in The Order of the Stick?

As I said, its not an unreasonable assumption, but it is wrong. Roy remembers his mother with enough clarity to be uncomfortable. The alternative is that he just randomly brought her up out of the blue and with no reason to feel uncomfortable.

[ORione]

As I said, its not an unreasonable assumption, but it is wrong. Roy remembers his mother with enough clarity to be uncomfortable. The alternative is that he just randomly brought her up out of the blue and with no reason to feel uncomfortable.

Not randomly. Because it was funny. Man, if only there were some quote from the Giant that could clarify whether or not "A big happy fulfilling blur" could allow enough clarity to remember his mother without the Roger Rabbit Principle.