My incredible imploding disaster of a game.

[Alcopop]

Redacting some information in case the people who I was upset with stumble across this post. Unlikely but I could live without the drama.

[Glimbur]

[redacted]

Things can get better.

[Alcopop]

That sounds pretty awful.

Sometimes we are friends with people but they are not good players/DMs. I would advocate for not playing with them, knowing that not having a game is still better than a bad game. Occasionally cutting them from the game will cost the friendship. However, if they are rude and inconsiderate in game I would bet apples to acorns they are out of game too. And then, do you really want to be friends with them anyway?

It sounds like you already followed the advice I am trying to give. It's hard to cut ties and end friendships, but sometimes it's the right thing to do.

Redacting...

[Segev]

The solutions are simple but aggressive:

1) Speak to them. Ask them if they are intending to destroy the game. If they say "no," then discuss with them why their actions are doing so, and ask them to stop. Let them know that you're giving them another chance, if they seem cooperative, but that you're not pulling punches nor tolerating "aggressive destruction" of your game anymore. If they won't even pretend to be cooperative, simply kick them out.

2) Run the game and remember that you are DM. They've already had you retcon fights out of "sheer exhaustion," which means there's precedent for you performing retcons if needs be. The next time they attack the other players, retcon the deaths on the grounds that it was not fair play and violated the agreement. Next time they take on something that should kill their characters, kill their characters. Don't retcon the fight. If they're bullying another player, tell them to cut it out, OOC, and back up the player IC and OOC against them. Next time they side with the bad guys, have the bad guys use them to a point, then backstab them at the most opportune moment.

3) Don't focus on them and their antics. You had this whole session wasted while they fought a thing they couldn't beat, and everybody else sat around unable to do anything. You clearly had other things planned; allow the other players to withdraw and split the party. Then inform the players in the fight that you're going to focus on the other half of the party for a while. Keep focusing on that half of the party for most of the evening. Periodically give the other two a single round of combat. Don't wait on them; if they're not ready to go when you turn to them, be understanding and tell them to take all the time they need, and go back to running the game for those who're interested in it.

Heck, maybe the two will get themselves killed. And this would be a good chance to go on to the last move, if they have continued in belligerence despite your efforts to talk to them, OOC:

4) Kick them out. If they don't shape up, or if they perpetrate their own demises, and if they keep wrecking the game, don't let them make new characters. Find new players if you must, but run with a diminished team size until then. Give a remaining player Leadership if needs be to round out the party.


Remember: You're the DM. You can and should use your absolute power over the game world to refuse to acknowledge game-destroying actions when they're taken with OOC malice. It's good to enforce consequences and the like where appropriate, but if players are aggressively destroying your game, don't let them. No-sell their actions. "No, that didn't happen," is something you are quite able to say, especially if the thing you're declaring inoperative is something that would have ruined the fun of other players.

Talk to them like mature human beings. It might work. If it doesn't, kick them out, and tell them why.

[Jay R]

I wish to make a precsie distinction.

I'm not sure I could bring myself to "kick somebody out" of a game.

But I'm quite comfortable with the notion of ending a game. Very soon thereafter, I would start a new game, inviting the people I wanted to play that new game with.

It might be set in the same world. It might re-use old characters. But it would be a "new game".

[Alcopop]

The solutions are simple but aggressive:

1) Speak to them. Ask them if they are intending to destroy the game. If they say "no," then discuss with them why their actions are doing so, and ask them to stop. Let them know that you're giving them another chance, if they seem cooperative, but that you're not pulling punches nor tolerating "aggressive destruction" of your game anymore. If they won't even pretend to be cooperative, simply kick them out.

2) Run the game and remember that you are DM. They've already had you retcon fights out of "sheer exhaustion," which means there's precedent for you performing retcons if needs be. The next time they attack the other players, retcon the deaths on the grounds that it was not fair play and violated the agreement. Next time they take on something that should kill their characters, kill their characters. Don't retcon the fight. If they're bullying another player, tell them to cut it out, OOC, and back up the player IC and OOC against them. Next time they side with the bad guys, have the bad guys use them to a point, then backstab them at the most opportune moment.

3) Don't focus on them and their antics. You had this whole session wasted while they fought a thing they couldn't beat, and everybody else sat around unable to do anything. You clearly had other things planned; allow the other players to withdraw and split the party. Then inform the players in the fight that you're going to focus on the other half of the party for a while. Keep focusing on that half of the party for most of the evening. Periodically give the other two a single round of combat. Don't wait on them; if they're not ready to go when you turn to them, be understanding and tell them to take all the time they need, and go back to running the game for those who're interested in it.

Heck, maybe the two will get themselves killed. And this would be a good chance to go on to the last move, if they have continued in belligerence despite your efforts to talk to them, OOC:

4) Kick them out. If they don't shape up, or if they perpetrate their own demises, and if they keep wrecking the game, don't let them make new characters. Find new players if you must, but run with a diminished team size until then. Give a remaining player Leadership if needs be to round out the party.


Remember: You're the DM. You can and should use your absolute power over the game world to refuse to acknowledge game-destroying actions when they're taken with OOC malice. It's good to enforce consequences and the like where appropriate, but if players are aggressively destroying your game, don't let them. No-sell their actions. "No, that didn't happen," is something you are quite able to say, especially if the thing you're declaring inoperative is something that would have ruined the fun of other players.

Talk to them like mature human beings. It might work. If it doesn't, kick them out, and tell them why.

Redacting...

I wish to make a precsie distinction.

I'm not sure I could bring myself to "kick somebody out" of a game.

But I'm quite comfortable with the notion of ending a game. Very soon thereafter, I would start a new game, inviting the people I wanted to play that new game with.

It might be set in the same world. It might re-use old characters. But it would be a "new game".

beepboop redacting

[JohnnyCancer]

Siding with the villains isn't a great crime as far as the game goes, playing as rapacious opportunists is legit. Otherwise, they sound completely unbearable, when dealing with those types in the future just say that there's no place for bullying, passive-aggressive game sabotage, or extended arguments in your game. Give them the rest of the session and the next to shape up, and if they fail; don't invite them back.

[ThePhantom]

People, the sitution is over, he moved to another city. There's nothing that can be do on our part at this point in time. Alcopop, all I can really say is that its a shame that things got so bad, and I hope that your future gaming will be better.

[Alcopop]

Siding with the villains isn't a great crime as far as the game goes, playing as rapacious opportunists is legit. Otherwise, they sound completely unbearable, when dealing with those types in the future just say that there's no place for bullying, passive-aggressive game sabotage, or extended arguments in your game. Give them the rest of the session and the next to shape up, and if they fail; don't invite them back.

I personally feel, unless there is a specific agreement to play an evil campaign, that siding with the villains is pretty poor form, especially when it goes against the majority of the party.

I feel like evil should be played in a manner very aware to the feelings outside of the game, this is the one point I feel meta gaming is almost necessary, because moral conflict is fine, even fun, but party in fighting that results in character deaths is fun for exactly half the players at best. Unless you are playing a game where this kind of thing has been deemed acceptable I am pretty much against any in game action that leads to treachery and pvp unless it's exceedingly rare.

It was not exceedingly rare.

People, the sitution is over, he moved to another city. There's nothing that can be do on our part at this point in time. Alcopop, all I can really say is that its a shame that things got so bad, and I hope that your future gaming will be better.

Thanks, I think I just needed to vent for a bit.

And maybe as a piece of friendly advice to anyone gaming with antagonistic players just to take a step back and try to separate yourself from the emotions of the situation. And maybe post it here, I wish I had before it was too late.

[Alejandro]

Probably trying to be bombastic, always awesome successes in a tabletop game, because they're probably abject failures in the real world.