Warhammer 40k -II- Tactics for the Tactics God [Archive]

Erloas

2009-01-07, 01:55 PM

Cheese for the Cheese Throne?

Well I've got a topic for a new thread:
How does everyone feel about taking lists tailored to specific enemies (or game types) compared to taking general purpose lists?

Personally even from Fantasy I've never been a fan of tailored lists and have always been in favor of general purpose lists. I think that all units have their uses in any situation, its just a matter of recognizing what that situation might be and putting them to use, even if that use is completely different then what the same unit would be doing against a different opponent.

So far of my 4 games, two have been with a general list and the other two have been somewhat tailored (though generally not more then 1-2 units and a few weapon selections) to the enemies. As of right now I don't see a huge need to tailor a list. In fact I'm thinking I'm going to come up with about 3 lists for 1000 and 1500 and just roll a dice before each game to decide which list I use. I don't think I have the models to make different lists for 2000 points right now (and even the 1000/1500 point lists can't be drastically different) and no one around here plays less then 1000 points. I feel that while it might cause me to loose more games early on it will give me a much better feel for what each unit is capable of against every opponent and make me a better player overall. It should also help if I start playing in any tournements, which doesn't seem highly likely (since there are none close to where I live) but maybe, since some of the other players seem to take a few trips for tournements.

Oracle_Hunter

2009-01-07, 02:31 PM

Link back (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29297) to the original thread.

On Tailored Lists
As an Eldar player, I'm surprised to hear your (Erloas) opinion on this matter. Of all the armies, Eldar benefit most from tailoring.

For heavy infantry armies you want more fusion guns and star cannons. Banshees look nice, as do Reapers.

For light infantry armies you want more scatterlasers and shuriken cannons. Scorpions over Banshees, Shadowweavers are also nice.

For melee forces, invest in vehicles. For shooty forces, keep them to a minimum.

Now, this is less pressing than in previous editions, but you can get huge power boosts by cutting out improper specializations and focusing on the goo ones.

Ghal Marak

2009-01-07, 03:04 PM

Thank you very much for the help Erloas.

Well I'm not positive on the abilities of the Grey Knights, but I believe they are close combat oriented SMs with a few very strong attacks. I'm not sure on your options so I'll go with that general idea.

Yeah, a Grey Knight has WS5, counts as Str6 in close combat, and they have True Grit. They also have The Shrouding, which is kinda like a weaker stealth suit, and they all can resist psyker powers.

The problem against tyrnids is of course that you just don't have the attacks to kill them in CC. Against some things you could probably do pretty good, probably the monsters with a fewer attacks, though they would be unsavable. Against most things in the army you aren't going to be going first and they are throwing enough dice (or ignoring armor) that you are going to have people die.

Yeah, from what I've seen Genestealers obliterate anything they can get into CC with. Next time I just need to make sure my guys get the charge. The Tyranid players here never skip taking the 'stealers. :smallsigh:

The one thing about all space marines though, is that while they specialize in one thing, they are better at their weak point then are other armies. Specialized marines also aren't as good at their specialization as other armies that are specialized in the same thing. Shoot marines aren't going to out-shoot Tau and CC marines aren't going to out CC Orks or Tyrnids. In some cases it comes down to stats/weapons, but in most cases it simply comes down to not having enough models, 50 pretty good attacks are better then 10 really good attacks.

Yeah, I understand that. In one 1000 point game, I only had 35 models!

So even with a CC oriented SM army, against an opponent like tyrnids you are still going to have to do a lot of fighting at range and try to avoid CC until you have the upper hand. The other option is of course cover, stay in cover as much as possible and force them to assault through cover giving you the chance to attack first. With the difficult terrain test they are less likely to get everyone into combat and it will take fewer wounds to make it so they don't get any attacks back.

Unless they take flesh hooks. But yeah, cover is kinda important I guess. I haven't exactly been utilizing it as well as I could have.

The other main thing about being outnumbered is that it is much easier for your opponent to focus several units on one of yours at a time. And if you don't have your units close together to help support eachother then they can focus one unit down and suffer little damage in return. You might make a couple cheap-as-you-can-get-them units for bait to die your opponent up a turn or two and to make sure you get an extra round of concentrated fire or several of your units against a few of his in CC.

Huh... yeah, that could work. A squad of 5 Inquisitorial Stormtroopers costs only 50 points, and would act as a good screen for Grey Knights. It would be perfect to set up a charge.

And of course when you have weapon upgrade choices you should be focusing more on mass damage and less on the big hits. You still need a few things to take out the mosterous creatures, but with psyker and force weapons along with a reasonable str you should be able to handle them fairly well. A 20 point monster killer doesnt do much good if there are 40 grunts between you and that monster and you can only kill a few at a time.

The problem is that Grey Knight's don't have many weapon upgrades. The Psycannon seems to excell at a variable role (with Str6, AP4, and either Heavy 3 or assult 3, ignores invuln saves). The Incinerator is alright (a heavy flamer that ignores invuln saves), though I prefer to keep the enemy at range. Though I do see how that would help with the Dreadnought. I've been taking a Twin-Linked Autocannon and Missile Launcher, and was debating taking the Lascannon instead.

The same concepts, but in some cases reversed (ie shooty marines vs shooty opponents) is true for all marines. Fight to your opponnets weakness, not necessarily to your str, because being a general purpose army SMs are out specilized but can still do a bit of everything. And don't let your opponent focus too many of their units on one of yours without making sure you have some way to make them pay for it afterwords. Which should kind of answer JMobius's question as well.

Thanks again. I think I know what to do now.

EDIT: Oh, and I've been playing tailored lists. I think I'll try a general list next.

EDIT 2: Dang, I about missed this one. Thanks grinner.
From what I can see you can either play Daemonhunters as a Space Marine army, or as an Imperial Guard army with superior HQ, Elites and Fast Attack choices. In either case, against Tyranids I'd take some ordnance-type Heavy Support choices ... Whirlwinds or Leman Russ tanks ... in order to thin out the ranks of the Tyranid horde before it gets into assault range.

Well, that's if I use the Allied SM or Inducted IG lists. So far I've only been playing a pure Deamonhunters force, which does not have access to many different tanks (only Land Raiders). Hmm... perhaps I'll try an Allied Space Marine list next.

In any case I'd probably avoid mixing IG troops with Grey Knights in the Troops section ... the high cost of the Grey Knights will attenuate the big advantage of IG - numbers, and the lack of BS, WS and heavy armor on the part of IG will likewise attenuate the strengths of the Grey Knights.

Alright, so if I go Inducted IG, stick with Stormtroopers.

Since it seems the psycannon and incinerator would be particularly effective against Tyranids, I'd suggest playing your army as Space Marines. I would, however, mix up Grey Knights squads with normal Space Marine tac squads ... that way you'll have some more standard heavy weapons available against those high-Toughness monsters.

Yeah, so far I am loving the Psycannon, but it does not quite make up for the other heavy weapons.

Of course, this is mostly theoretical knowledge as I've never actually played or fought against a Daemonhunter army ...

Well, it all sounds correct, so you can't be far off.

Erloas

2009-01-07, 03:10 PM

Sorry about not linking to the other thread, I had to redo this one twice because the site wasn't loading (probably on my end, our internet at work is fairly unreliable) and forgot about that sort of thing.

As for specializing lists, that came more from a few years of fantasy then just a few games of 40k. It might change with more experience, but as of right now that is still how I feel. When I specilized my list against SMs at 1000 points it almost didn't seem fair, I lost maybe 6 models total and wiped him out the the last marine.

Although I still believe it probably leads to being a better player if you can use what you have to the best of its ability rather then having to have something exactly made for it. The fact that I did that a lot in fantasy and still managed to get good with Dark Elves (another specilized sort of army) is one of the reasons I believe I was able to get victories in my first 4 games with the Eldar, at notably difficult race to play (according to everything I've read). 3 of them were very massive victories and the other was also a solid victory and 3 of the 4 players have been playing 40k for quite a while, the other has been playing longer then me, but probably not longer then about 6 months to a year.

None of the games so far had super powerful single units or really tooled up characters, so things might change if I start facing those sorts of things. I don't think that sort of thing is common practice for the local players here though.

I think some of it comes down to MSU though, (many small units) a tactic I picked up and now live by since playing the Dark Elves. Its built around the fact that nothing in the army is overly powerful and expensive, so anything can be lost without it being a huge loss. It also means if you don't have a single unit taking up 30-40% of your points that is tailored for a specific type of enemy that has to be changed because your opponent changes. Since I have a minimal investment in a decidedly anti-horde or anti-MEQ chioces then facing the other type means a minimal amount of points going to something I can't do anything with.

I'll see how things go this weekend when I expect I'll have a fight with a tyrnid playing looking for revenge (after the aformentioned wasting of his SMs) and I'm going to be fielding a general purpose list.

Winterwind

2009-01-07, 03:23 PM

Now I have the picture of two guys in my mind, each with a four foot high pile of lists, who keep yelling at each other:
"So you focus on vehicles, eh? Sucks to be you, I'm gonna use my speedy vehicle killer list!"
- "Oh yeah? Well, in that case, I'm going to use my supremely shooty infantery list!"
- "My close combat horde list is going to wipe out your supremely shooty infantery!"
- "Your close combat horde list? Ha! My mass explosive shooting heavy weapon list will make you eat your close combat horde list!"
- "Oh yeah? Well, my..."
:smalltongue: :smallbiggrin:

More seriously though, I figure I would adjust my list to what the opponent was likely to field (amongst other... I would also adjust according to what I'd feel like fielding the most, and whether there'd be any fluff motivations to use some units over the others), if I had a sufficiently big and flexible army for that.
Since, however, I need an army at all in the first place, for now it's going to be a general purpose one. :smalltongue:

Speaking of which, while I don't want to interrupt the current discussion, I have a minor question: I was reading a German WH40k forum, and somebody there posted that he would not recommend using the Games Workshop glue. The one reason he stated explicitly was price, whether he was referring to quality as well or not was unclear from that statement. Now, what I was wondering about was whether the GW glue was of decent quality or whether you too would recommend using a different one (I'm not going to waste time by looking through a dozen of shops in search of a different glue only to save a few cents; if, on the other hand, the GW glue does not hold stuff together at all, that's an entirely different matter).

Yeah, from what I've seen Genestealers obliterate anything they can get into CC with. Next time I just need to make sure my guys get the charge. The Tyranid players here never skip taking the 'stealers. :smallsigh:Seeing how Genestealers have superior initiative either way, and likely won't leave much of whatever is assaulting them, I'm not sure if whether you have one attack more or less which hardly anything is going to live long enough for to use is going to make all that much of a difference...

Yeah, I understand that. In one 1000 point game, I only had 35 models!Okay, now I'm scared. My 1000 point list counts only 35 models too (and that only if I count the Rhino!), and from what I hear Gray Knights are a more elite army than CSM, aren't they? :smalleek:

onasuma

2009-01-07, 04:42 PM

Okay, now I'm scared. My 1000 point list counts only 35 models too (and that only if I count the Rhino!), and from what I hear Gray Knights are a more elite army than CSM, aren't they? :smalleek:

Rankings in terms of all marines as i see them:

Regular (chaos or imperium, both work differently. Probably chaos, as they're cheaper
Chosen
noise marines
Thousand sons (- sorceror)
space marine vets (stern/van guard)
Grey knights
Bezerkers
Plague marines

Thats how I see them in terms of gameplay usefulness.

Grey knights are basic marines with Ws5 and power weapons and with S6 sergents. A squad of bezerkers hits with alot more attacks, so many more i feel it easily makes up for the lack of power, but due to the point costs, they're even better.

As Im sure all of you are aware, i really rate plague marines. The suvivability of them, the fact you can grab two plamas in a 5 man squad, the awesome conversions that can be done easily makes them the best basic marine unit in the game in my opinion.

Edit: ok, grey knights also have storm bolters... They're probably better than bezerkers then...

Winterwind

2009-01-07, 04:56 PM

Well, I guess it's okay then... my army has roughly as many entries above as below the Gray Knights on your list. Phew. :smallsmile:

grinner666

2009-01-07, 05:07 PM

Seeing how Genestealers have superior initiative either way, and likely won't leave much of whatever is assaulting them, I'm not sure if whether you have one attack more or less which hardly anything is going to live long enough for to use is going to make all that much of a difference...

Genestealers are nowhere near as scary as they used to be in 3E, when their attacks were all considered to be power weapons. Rending's got nothing on that. Any heavily-armored squad should be able to do fairly well against Genestealers. In fact I could easily see a Striking Scorpion squad backed up by a Farseer's Doom and Fortune powers kicking the living snot out of a Genestealer brood.

Unless I'm missing something?

:smalleek:

Oh, well ... that's what ordnance weapons are there for.

:smallbiggrin:

Bryn

2009-01-07, 05:08 PM

Standard Grey Knights have, compared to regular Marines...
S6
WS 5
Storm bolters
Fearless
True Grit
The Aegis (an anti-psychic-power effect)
The Shrouding (they can only be shot if they're within 3d6*3")
A couple of rules which only affect Daemons.

They also have the chance to Deep Strike if taken as Fast Attack instead of Troops.

Advice for dealing with Genestealers:
Don't charge them. Genestealers, particularly with upgrades, are terrifying in close combat, and against all but some Eldar they will strike first and they will decimate your unit before you can do a thing against them (especially with defenders piling in under 5e).

Get into terrain - this will let you get some hits in when they charge you, hopefully killing enough to save your unit. Thankfully, Genestealers don't get any sort of frag-grenade equivalent as far as I can tell.

Templates, especially AP4 templates like the Inferno Cannon and Heavy Flamer, are your best friends. Most armies can't get Hellhounds, but multiple heavy flamers work just as well. If the Stealers are foolish enough to run across open ground don't hesitate to drop blast markers on them.

Edit: I should add that I'm speaking here as an Imperial Guard player. It might be that you have better odds as an army with lots of close combat weapons.

The Genestealers will be hitting on a 3+ all the time - Feeder Tendrils costs an entire 1 point to add its effect (favoured enemy) to the entire brood. Though Rending has been nerfed, it's still nasty - no armour in the game will protect you against every six they roll to wound. If the Stealer player spends 4 points (not per model, just 4 points) they'll also be re-rolling to wound.

Perhaps not as bad as all power weapons (:smalleek:), but still very good and definitely not something you want to be in combat with.

grinner666

2009-01-07, 05:11 PM

Thankfully, Genestealers don't get any sort of frag-grenade equivalent as far as I can tell.

Flesh Hooks.

Winterwind

2009-01-07, 05:12 PM

Unless I'm missing something?I don't know, I'm the newbie here. :smalltongue:

All I know is that in one of my few games, when I was facing Tyranids, those gaunts managed to cause quite a few losses... and when I heard the 'stealers profile, even more impressive, I panicked a bit... (fortunately, none of them managed to get into CC :smallbiggrin:)
That might have traumatized me a bit with regards to Tyranid CC forces. :smalltongue:

Bryn

2009-01-07, 05:19 PM

Flesh Hooks.
Ah, snap. Apparently, I skipped over that sentence.

Right, fear them even more now. Getting into cover will at least let you strike at the same time as the Stealers, but it's of questionable value when they all get the extra charging attack.

It depends if you think you can have a reasonable amount of units survive a whole load of 3+ to hit, reroll to wound, rending close combat attacks. If you don't think so, get into cover and try to take some with you! If you do think you can survive the initial attack, then go ahead and deny them an extra 6-12 attacks.

onasuma

2009-01-07, 05:37 PM

I don't know, I'm the newbie here. :smalltongue:

All I know is that in one of my few games, when I was facing Tyranids, those gaunts managed to cause quite a few losses... and when I heard the 'stealers profile, even more impressive, I panicked a bit... (fortunately, none of them managed to get into CC :smallbiggrin:)
That might have traumatized me a bit with regards to Tyranid CC forces. :smalltongue:

A little advise for dealing with those massed tyranid swarms:

Get as many really, really cheap dreadnoughts as you can. have each charge a different swarmy troop choice (not stealers though). That squad is now effectivly out of the game unless your opponent decides to give a larger creature to the cause, giving you alot more guns at the other targets.

grinner666

2009-01-07, 07:13 PM

The Genestealers will be hitting on a 3+ all the time - Feeder Tendrils costs an entire 1 point to add its effect (favoured enemy) to the entire brood. Though Rending has been nerfed, it's still nasty - no armour in the game will protect you against every six they roll to wound.

Then why aren't players as terrified of Eldar Rangers as everybody seems to be of Genestealers? Again, a one-in-six chance of no armor save beats the hell out of no armor save, period.

If the Stealer player spends 4 points (not per model, just 4 points) they'll also be re-rolling to wound.

Sorry, no. Dead wrong. The codex specifically says,

... the whole brood may be equipped with weapon-symbiotes or biomorph enhancements chosen from the following list at the points cost indicated per model.

(Codex: Tyranids p. 39)

That means a Genestealer brood that wants the Acid Maw upgrade costs 20 points per model ... and still has a lousy 5+ armor save. They can turn that to a 4+ save, sure ... but that means they cost 24 points per model. They can quickly become far, far more expensive than space marines ... in fact, more expensive than Wraithguard ... with only a so-so armor save and no chance to wound really tough targets. Again, they're just not that scary any more. And if a brood that costs 36 points per model survives long enough to wipe out a Space Marine tactical squad, more power to 'em. They deserve to.

Right, fear them even more now. Getting into cover will at least let you strike at the same time as the Stealers, but it's of questionable value when they all get the extra charging attack.

Again, nope. Assault (frag and plasma) grenades let everybody attack as normal (i.e on his usual initiative), not simultaneously.

It depends if you think you can have a reasonable amount of units survive a whole load of 3+ to hit, reroll to wound, rending close combat attacks. If you don't think so, get into cover and try to take some with you! If you do think you can survive the initial attack, then go ahead and deny them an extra 6-12 attacks.

See above on the whole re-rolling to wound thing. What I don't understand is why anybody worries that much about them. Sure they can (sort of) move fast (I distrust movement based on a die roll), but they need to; one good shot with any ordnance weapon ... or a decent turn's shooting by most Troops squads ... will turn the "terrifying" Genestealer brood into chopped meat.

Get as many really, really cheap dreadnoughts as you can. have each charge a different swarmy troop choice (not stealers though). That squad is now effectivly out of the game unless your opponent decides to give a larger creature to the cause, giving you alot more guns at the other targets.

Why not against Genestealers? Is it because of the 10 AV at the rear?

First, even if the brood has spent the points to get the Acid Maw upgrade, rolling to wound is not the same as rolling for armor penetration. That's why every other weapon with special "to wound" rules has completely separate rules on penetrating armor. As far as I'm concerned, no special rules in this case means no advantage to the Tyranid player.

But even if the 'Nid player whines and you decide to allow it (the rule is everybody's supposed to have fun, right?), so what? He STILL needs a 6 to get a glancing hit against the dreadnought's weakest armor.

In fact, slide a Dark Eldar Raider squad up on 'em and let 'em chop the 'Nids into tiny bitz with gunfire while they ride their Raider, safe as can be.

Good Gawd, I never thot I'd say that about anybody inside a Raider ...

:smallbiggrin:

Ash08

2009-01-07, 07:56 PM

I too have a great fear of genestealers... in one of my more recent games a broodlord and a squad of genestealers smashed through my tactical line and into my 4 heavy bolter devastator squad... it was carnage... in the first assualt phase 7 out of the 10 marines in the devastator squad were killed... the only thing that made the situation any better was the termies near by... but of course, they got slaughtered by the rending claws, their low initative and my bad luck on the invanurable save... needless to say I lost the game deprived of 2 of my best units and surrounded by tyranids is not the best way to go... and the fact that the lictors came the next turn...*shiver* that was my least favorite battle so far...

DranWork

2009-01-07, 09:09 PM

As a nid player i really dont understand why people are so scared of Genes anymore. They have become far to over priced for something that can be cut down by gun fire well before it ever becomes useful. Yes re-rolls to wounds and ignoreing armor is great and dandy but for the simple fact that they can be wiped out by a noob with a flashlight they really arnt all that great anymore. The basic Gene costs a butt load then adding anythign extra to the brood just brings them up in points so quickly. That said i always play with a squad of them just for the attempted backline smash that they can be capable of and the fact that everyone sinks so much fire power into getting rid of them. Personaly my Winged tyrant has always outdone its self where the gene's couldnt. Being able to better pick the weak targets and quickly dispactching them whilst giveing synap coverage around the enemy's frount line is always a bonus imo. Gene's do a great job at getting my opponant to forget about the 2 units of 20 horm's i have rushing over the board.. cant tell you how many time people forget them hahah brilliant.

Personaly with Gray Knights ive always thought that they are better served as a gun line, Storm bolters are great and if people are stupid enough to actualy get into close combat with them then its their own fault for comeing up against the w6 slayers of demons. An entire Gray knight Army however.. hrm.. difficult as they are hampered by having such an old codex. They need an upgrade but not as much as DE.

Da King

2009-01-07, 09:10 PM

Speaking of which, while I don't want to interrupt the current discussion, I have a minor question: I was reading a German WH40k forum, and somebody there posted that he would not recommend using the Games Workshop glue. The one reason he stated explicitly was price, whether he was referring to quality as well or not was unclear from that statement. Now, what I was wondering about was whether the GW glue was of decent quality or whether you too would recommend using a different one (I'm not going to waste time by looking through a dozen of shops in search of a different glue only to save a few cents; if, on the other hand, the GW glue does not hold stuff together at all, that's an entirely different matter).

I've used GW glue to build all of my models, and I have never had any issues with quality. Many of my miniatures have survived a large fall perfectly intact!
It is kind of expensive though, and I'm sure its possible to get a glue just as good at a lower price. Perhaps try here? (http://www.thewarstore.com/zapgluesaccelerants.html)

On the topic of Tyranids, I have had absolutely no luck against them at all. A friend recently started playing them, and out of about 7 games, I won one, and only because it was a 3-way and he spilt his forces badly.

Anyway, I've been doing horribly with my Imperial Guard army ever since I started playing them, and I really don't know what I'm doing wrong. Anyone want to help me make a good 1500 pt army list?

grinner666

2009-01-07, 09:52 PM

Games Workshop products are idiotically expensive ... eight bucks for a bottle of modeling cement??!!? Come on ... you can get a tube of Testors for three.

I frankly have quit using anything from GW except their models ... which are also ridiculously overpriced, but what the #@$%^& are you gonna do? There are loads of other paint manufacturers out there, "green stuff" is just plumber's epoxy in a fancy package, you can get flock and other terrain-building materials at a miniature railroad store, other terrain materials can be had at Homeowner Hell, fer gosh sakes ... cheaper alternatives that are just as good, or even better, than Games Workshop abound.

BTW shouldn't this conversation be in the Warhammer Models thread?

:smalltongue:

Bryn

2009-01-08, 05:24 AM

Grinner, please would you reduce the amount of bold text... just a little? :smallamused: It's hard to read so much bold without imagining /tg/'s rage smily - emphasis generally indicates ANGER on the Internet, and I would rather hope you aren't getting angry about the Tyranid rules.

It may well be the case that I've misunderstood the rules for Genestealers. I'm away from books right now, but certain upgrades, Acid Maw among them (IIRC), were marked with a footnote saying that only one Genestealer was allowed to take them (these items having special rules that affected the whole unit - again, IIRC). To me, that seemed to imply that you didn't have to pay that cost per model but rather pay for it only once to go on one Stealer (why else bother to state that the brood can only take one?); according to you, that was wrong. If so, MA BAD GUYS :smalltongue:

Anyway, my terror of Genestealers probably comes from the previous edition, before Rending got nerféd. Even now, though, I find that stuff that gets charged by Stealers will die. Of course, my Guard die if anything more than a fly charges them, but I vaguely remember my Marines faring similarly.

It's probably a subjective thing, but I've had units survive, say, Ork charges but never Genestealer charges (admittedly mostly under 4e). This is perhaps because the slower-moving Orks have time to be decimated by various templates before they get close, while the Genestealers are very fast.

By the way, Genestealers would be very unlikely to hit the rear armour of a Dreadnought in close combat, because Walkers are the exception to the rule that hits are resolved against rear armour under 5e. The Stealers would hit the front of the 'Nought, not the rear.

Old-style Rending meant Genestealers had a reasonable chance at killing lightly armoured vehicles. The new version means that they still have a small chance to damage a lightly armoured vehicle. Because they get quite a lot of attacks, there is a fair chance that there will be at least a few vehicle-wrecking hits on a charge.

Winterwind

2009-01-08, 06:02 AM

As a nid player i really dont understand why people are so scared of Genes anymore.Might have to do with the looks. :smallwink:

I've used GW glue to build all of my models, and I have never had any issues with quality. Many of my miniatures have survived a large fall perfectly intact!
It is kind of expensive though, and I'm sure its possible to get a glue just as good at a lower price. Perhaps try here? (http://www.thewarstore.com/zapgluesaccelerants.html)Thank you very much. I'll be going to the GW store today or (more likely) tomorrow, so it's good to know that now. :smallsmile:

Eldan

2009-01-08, 06:20 AM

Heh. I saw that very interesting game once, were a tyranid army, heavy on the genestealers, fought against an eldar army, heavy on harlequin. The guts were flying everywhere.

Zorg

2009-01-08, 08:43 AM

Why not against Genestealers? Is it because of the 10 AV at the rear?

Probably due to rending. Besides, dreads are walkers so all hits are to the front armour now. The stealers would need to rend on a 6 to 'wound', and still get a 3,4 to glance and 5,6 to penetrate.

Or get an Ironclad - better armour, more hand to hand goodness and can take twin heavy flamers.

Winterwind

2009-01-08, 09:11 AM

grinner666

2009-01-08, 09:22 AM

Probably due to rending. Besides, dreads are walkers so all hits are to the front armour now. The stealers would need to rend on a 6 to 'wound', and still get a 3,4 to glance and 5,6 to penetrate.

Or get an Ironclad - better armour, more hand to hand goodness and can take twin heavy flamers.

Good Gawd. I wonder, does he also never take a Land Raider if the force he's facing might have multi-meltas? When you've got to roll a 6 for AP, followed by another 5 or 6, again for AP, then followed by yet another 5 or 6 on the damage table, all in the same turn, to destroy the thing, I think the standard Dreadnought can be considered fairly safe from Genestealers.

:smalltongue:

Pronounceable

2009-01-08, 09:47 AM

^^^^That'd be Athena, I think.

Go on, go on. Just mindless trolling. Nothing to see here.

Zenos

2009-01-08, 10:09 AM

Erloas

2009-01-08, 11:11 AM

And now for a discussion that, I think, might cause some controversy. :smallbiggrin:

In that German WH40k forum, there was an old discussion (from an older edition, I think) where somebody criticized that in Warhammer 40k
1. whoever gets the first turn wins,
2. whoever has the better army list wins,
3. WH40k lacks tactical depth.
To my great amazement, quite a few people agreed with him. Not exactly something I would have expected on a WH40k site. :smalleek:

I've heard a fair amount between fantasy and 40k saying that fantasy has a lot more tactical depth, and at first glance it seems a fair statement, but I'll have to play more to say for sure. The movement in fantasy is a lot more important and combined charges have a lot more importance. However the huge range of diversity between 40k units' cababilities introduces new challenges and the importance of gear doing something other then just adding str or attacks makes those sorts of things more important. How that compares to other game systems I couldn't say much about.

The addition of kill points rather then just unit cost simplifies some aspects of tactics and army list building, but it makes other aspects of them more complex. Also the fact that there are 3 completely different deployment types and mission adds a lot of tactical depth and makes it so that over a few games no single army list is always going to have the advantage.

The first turn gets the win is not something I agree with at all, especially not now given the fact that the person with the first turn deploys first and the defender knows they are going second before anything of theirs is on the table means any reasonably competent player shouldn't fair too poorly in the first turn. The second player might be able to sieze the initiative, but they can't deploy to take advantage of that because its not likely to happen.

The better amy list wins I think more comes down to how good a particular player is with their army list. There are ways of skewing things to your favor with an army list, but with the different mission types (rolled after you pick your list) no army list is going to be best in all situations. On a game-by-game basis army lists will have a noticable impact, but over a series of games with different deployement types, mission types, and a random set of enemies then the balance of the army list becomes more important then being set up to win in a specific situation. That sort of thing isn't as likely to come up in casual gaming as it is in tournements when you are required to have a single army list and no idea what type of army you are going to be facing.

Also in terms of tactical depth, it also depends on the armies, some armies require more then others. MEQ armies are less dependant on terrain and are more versatile and survivable then anyone else so their tactics in the movement phase is less vital then some other armies. Seeing as how there are a lot of MEQ armies around, if thats all you are facing or playing as then some of the tactical depth is lost.

Once you get into a highly competative environement with a lot of players of very good skill levels, then a few little advantages such as army list or first turn will seem more important.

Zorg

2009-01-08, 11:36 AM

In that German WH40k forum, there was an old discussion (from an older edition, I think) where somebody criticized that in Warhammer 40k
1. whoever gets the first turn wins,
2. whoever has the better army list wins,
3. WH40k lacks tactical depth.
To my great amazement, quite a few people agreed with him. Not exactly something I would have expected on a WH40k site. :smalleek:

Now, what do you think about this? Myself, while I lack decisive experience, don't think he was right; sure, other tabletop wargames might offer more movement possibilities and greater importance of terrain, but WH40k still requires just as much foresight and thinking ahead so that every unit ends up where it is needed the most, and due to the lethality of the system, where entire units can be eradicated in a single turn weighing one's options and choosing the right targets and movements is all the more important (BattleTech, for example, is far more forgiving of single mistakes). Getting the first turn might allow a few shots at valuable targets before they can act, but with proper placement shouldn't do all that much damage either. And the army list is only as good as its usage.

1. Blatantly not true - I've lost plenty of games going first ;)

2. Well if I took a marine list of minimum troops and all devestators with multi-meltas against a swarm tyranid force then, yeah of course a better written list will win. A better list is, by defenition, better, so I would agree one with more thought put in to it has a higher chance of winning. The only weaker codexes are those left behind by rules changes (DE, Necrons and Daemonhunters).

3. I would agree partially - it does when compared to some other games, but it does have depth, albeit very unrealistic depth.

For insance the Stargrunt rules are sci-fi platoon based combat. They have detailed rules for morale, communications and whatnot, attempting to simulate a "real world", where soldiers actually act like people (for example if a squad member gets wounded the squad either has to lug him around or abandon them and risk a drop in morale and effectiveness). it is possible to win simply by pouring suppressive fire onto the enemy until they break and retreat without sustaining casualties. Hugely different playstyle to 40k, where you throw troops into the meatgrinder and whoever is left standing at the end wins.

But that's what it is - a big, over the top sci-fi explosionfest. It is more a board game than a realistic depiction of combat, but chess is a board game and few would say it lacks tactical depth. i like 40K, I think it's fun, entertaining and, yes, playing against a good opponent is a challenge more than the luck of the dice.

I think that playing against 'random' opponents would lead to lack of tactical depth, insofar as you may be less likely to experiment or try a crazy army list at a tournament. For instance my best friend plays Tau, I play marines. last game he threw me a curveball by not taking a single vehicle - he had two squad of kroot and a heap of fire warriors. He'd never fielded an infantry heavy list like that before, so my army had to do some compensating and wasn't as effective as it could have been (multi-meltas not too good against a wall of fire warriors).

I in turn suprised him by eschewing the wall of rhinos and drop podded in, resulting in massive carnage as we both had to grapple with this new situation. I found it quite a tricky situation as I essentially landed in the centre of his army, so deciding who to shoot at, who to charge with and even where to try and land the drop pods (landed one right infront of his broadsides, totally blocking their LoS).

Had it been a tournament situation both armies would probably have been of a more balanced composition, and more 'standard' tactics.

So yeah, long rambling reply to that one :smalltongue:

Bryn

2009-01-08, 01:04 PM

Disagreed on 1, insufficient data for comparison on 3.

Regarding 2.
It is probably the case that the players' army lists have a large effect in how the game goes. Since I don't have any plasma available (thanks to GW/FW prices), my Guard have lots of trouble dealing with Marine armies, but because they have a number of templates and blast markers, they are very cruel on horde armies (particularly Orks). Army list seems to be a big factor in how

I definitely wouldn't say it's everything though. While it's possible for one player to have an army totally unsuited to what's going on, it seems that most of the time the games are fairly balanced.

As for the actual codices themselves... there is a fair bit of codex creep, but to such a huge degree that the new list is guaranteed to beat the old one, at least by my reckoning.

Really, though, I'm not one to talk about tactics and balance and such. I never play in tournaments, nor do I get a decent game frequently enough to say with any reliability about what wins and what doesn't. In my subjective experience, the Tyranid player almost always wipes the floor with the rest of us, but that doesn't tell us anything reallly.

As for #3...
40k is the only miniatures wargame that I play anywhere near enough to say how it compares in terms of tactical depth.

Still, in my experience, it has not always been too simple. This is probably for a few reasons...

Never playing 'kill everyone' slugfests. Though sometimes my enemies are just there for the killing, I always play with objectives. Much more interesting...
Adding enough terrain that the table is near breaking point. Since I got those buildings, I'm pretty sure I've never played without 'em. I generally try to put my entire terrain collection on the board, and preferably in an interesting configuration. Line of sight prevents the game from being too straightforward. Naturally, it does give the 'nids more things to hide behind...
Not following conventional tactics. Apparently, a Guard player will normally set up a gunline, with a heavy weapon team in every infantry squad, and pretty much skip the movement phase. I generally run all my squads out into the middle of the board, playing Guard rather like Orks. It's probably ineffective, but it's entertaining, and leads to some interesting situations...

I couldn't actually say whether that adds the nebulous 'tactical depth' to 40k. It makes it fun, though.

Uncharitable tl;dr version: I play 40k wrong, so I know nuffin'!

Erloas

2009-01-08, 01:40 PM

Still, in my experience, it has not always been too simple. This is probably for a few reasons...

Never playing 'kill everyone' slugfests. Though sometimes my enemies are just there for the killing, I always play with objectives. Much more interesting...
Adding enough terrain that the table is near breaking point. Since I got those buildings, I'm pretty sure I've never played without 'em. I generally try to put my entire terrain collection on the board, and preferably in an interesting configuration. Line of sight prevents the game from being too straightforward. Naturally, it does give the 'nids more things to hide behind...
Not following conventional tactics. Apparently, a Guard player will normally set up a gunline, with a heavy weapon team in every infantry squad, and pretty much skip the movement phase. I generally run all my squads out into the middle of the board, playing Guard rather like Orks. It's probably ineffective, but it's entertaining, and leads to some interesting situations...

As for the first point, I would say go with the deployment and mission types out of the books sometimes, they make things interesting, and 2/3 of them are objective based, though differently. And while anihilation does get old if thats all you do it does also change a fair number of things from objective based games too.

As for terrain, I've seen some people that believe it also doesn't matter and have played games without any, which is just bad. Of course the trick to terrain is finding a good balance of it, if the board is so full that you have to take terrain tests every time you move no matter what and everything is always in cover without even trying then you have a bit too much. Its as true for other games as well, such as Fantasy and Battletech. Types of terrain have varying degrees of impact on each army and having too much could just as easily skew a fight towards some armies as having too little.
I think in general locally we play with about 6-8 pieces on a 4'x6' board, most of the terrain being about 8-12" across. It seems to be a pretty good balance. It also makes a big difference in fantasy (where most of my experience comes from) but they generally run a few less objects because movement is done a lot differently.

Not following conventional tactics can help a lot, especially if your opponents are used to a very set way of facing your army. One thing I've noticed, which was especially bad on Druchii.net, was that once a forum community settles on an idea they tend to believe nothing else is even practical. Which is one of the reasons why I'm spending (too much) time here discussing 40k rather then going to a site like Warseer or 40konline. Just today I was checking 40konline and they had 3-4 people looking over someones list and said their unit of 3 jetbikes was too small and vulnerable to be of any use. The same configuration of jetbikes that where probably some of my most useful units in the games I've played so far. I know from fantasy that there are a lot of armies that people insisted had to be played one specific way that I knew could be played substantially differently and still be effective.

(*I really should find something else to do at work... something a bit more work related perhaps*)

Wraith

2009-01-08, 05:38 PM

And now for a discussion that, I think, might cause some controversy. :smallbiggrin:

In that German WH40k forum, there was an old discussion (from an older edition, I think) where somebody criticized that in Warhammer 40k
1. whoever gets the first turn wins,
2. whoever has the better army list wins,
3. WH40k lacks tactical depth.
To my great amazement, quite a few people agreed with him. Not exactly something I would have expected on a WH40k site. :smalleek:

Now, what do you think about this?

1 and 2 are, in my experience, directly related. If I am playing an Army full of, say, Eldar Vypers and Falcons and my opponent gets the first turn with his big wall of Lascannons and Missile Launchers, I probably am doomed from the get-go - it's definitely not certain, but it'd take some atrocious luck for my opponent not to decimate such and army in the first couple of turns.

That, however, is only a 'better' army list because it is going to be more effective in that particular scenario - ultimately 40k is one big game of Rock-Paper-Scissors, where Vehicles beat Close Combat, Shooting beats Vehicles, and Close Combat beats Shooting. It's certainly not a 'better' army against something even more shooty or against a horde of Hormagaunts tearing across the board at 18" per turn.

I personally would argue, at the moment, that the game has the potential to be extremely tactical and with an agonizingly complicated metagame, however it is unfortunately 'fashionable' (particularly at Tournament level, but I have noticed a string trend in casual play too) for players to build an army that will try to win in the first turn by attrition.

Even with the changes regarding scenarios, and making people use more troops by making sure only Troop type units could capture objectives, hasn't helped - if anything, it's apparently become an excuse to take MORE artillary so as to smash them aside as soon as possible so that your opponent can't physically score.

I'm not saying it's a bad way to play - it's certainly effective, and once or twice I've even done it myself - but at the same time I yearn for the day to come, when the metagame will change and it becomes popular to do something else - anything else - that to be lazy and do only what the army is especially good at and nothing else. An end to unthinking "Net Building" would be much appreciated, too.

Disclaimer: I'm English, and don't play any further abroad that GW Nottingham and Warhammer World. Your view of what constitutes a "popular" army-building technique may or may not match mine :smalltongue:

Winterwind

2009-01-08, 06:41 PM

My, this sure managed to spawn a great deal of very insightful replies. :smallsmile:
Thanks, everyone; that was a highly interesting discussion. :smallsmile:

Oracle_Hunter

2009-01-08, 06:57 PM

My, this sure managed to spawn a great deal of very insightful replies. :smallsmile:
Thanks, everyone; that was a highly interesting discussion. :smallsmile:

Psh, like you weren't expecting a "I hear people think your hobby sucks" post to generate responses :smalltongue:

Anyhow, my brief response:

(1) Bwahahahahahahaha! Oh man, that's a good one. :smallbiggrin:

(2) Yes, because a Space Marine player has never lost :smalltongue:

(3) Well, this depends on what you mean by "tactical depth."

The current editions are certainly more simplified than earlier ones (oh Overwatch, how I miss you) and any simplification does remove or limit a variable you used to be able to manipulate. In comparison to Fantasy, 40K squads are more flexible in terms of dealing with terrain and enemy manuevers, so it's less important to plan your moves out turns in advance; I suppose that reduces the strategic depth of the game.

However, both of these changes result (IMHO) in a trivial reduction in the "depth" of the game. Dice rolls alone do not determine who wins; your ability to adapt to terrain placement, enemy manuevers and bad dice rolls is what will let you win. For me, this is sufficient "tactical depth." But, as with any subjective criteria, YMMV.

Ash08

2009-01-08, 08:44 PM

(2) Yes, because a Space Marine player has never lost :smalltongue:(

I hope your joking(I'm very sure you are) but if your not... theres probably some moral about WHY I've lost my last 3 games...:smalltongue:

Da King

2009-01-08, 10:09 PM

Lord Mancow

2009-01-08, 10:54 PM

Killersquid

2009-01-09, 12:48 AM

Does anyone know if there's any disadvantage to attempting to steal the initiative because I can't find any reason why you wouldn't go first unless you wanted to go second? Which you would only do for a last minute land-grab or to allow your opponent to come into weapons/ charge range for bikes like is seen in one White Dwarf battle report with 2000pts of Dark Angels and Tau.

Are there any mechanical disadvantages to failing to steal the initiative?

I can't actually think of any at the moment.

Also, I changed my Speed Freeks army list a bit for my Orks, I'll post it here. Also, does anyone know if the Killcannon in the Battlewagon takes up the Big Gunz spot?

HQ Wazdakka Gutsmek 160
Big Mek Kustom Force-Field, 3 Grot Oilers 90
Troop 11 Ork Boyz, 1 Nob 1 Big Shoota, Nob has Power Klaw and ‘eavy armor 117
Trukk (as dedicated transport) Red paint job, grot riggers 45
6 Warbikers, one of them a Nob Nob has a power klaw and a bosspole 190

11 Ork Boyz, 1 Nob 1 Big Shoota, Nob has Power Klaw, and ‘eavy armor 117
Trukk (as dedicated transport) Red paint job, grot riggers 45
Elites 11 Burna Boyz 165
5 Nob Bikers and 1 Painboy Biker 4 Power Klaws, 1 Big Choppa, 1 bosspole, 1 WAAAGH ! Banner, Grot Orderly, 6 Cybork bodies 290
Heavy Support Battle Wagon Red paint job, Killcannon, grot riggers, armour plates, deff rolla, 4 big shootas, ‘ard case 240
Fast Attack 2 Warbuggies and a Scorcha 3 red paint jobs and grot riggers in all 3, 130

1499

grinner666

2009-01-09, 03:06 AM

Here's my IG army list for 1500pts. Any advice on how to improve it?

HQ
Command Squad
Junior Officer+Honorifica Imp.+Master vox+Bolt pistol+Power Weapon =96pts
HQ support
35+x3 Heavy bolter = 80pts
35+x3Missle Launcher+Sharpshooters=105pts

Elites
x10 Ratlings=110pts

Troops
Command Squad
Junior Officer+Bolt Pistol+x4flamer= 65pts
Infantry Squads x2
flamer+vox=142pts

Command Squad
Junior Officer+Power Weapon+ Plasma Pistol+x4plasma gun= 105pts
Infantry Squads x2
flamer+vox=142pts

x20 conscripts=80pts

10Grenadiers+Vet Sarge+plasma gun+melta gun+power Weapon=121pts

Heavy Support
Leman Russ(Heavy Bolters+Hull Lascannon)=165pts
Leman Russ Demolisher(Plasma Cannons+Hull Lascannon)=185pts
Basilisk=100pts

Doctrines: stormtroopers, grenadiers, ratlings, conscripts, sharpshooters

Total=1496pts

Placing all of your infantry's heavy weapons in the command platoon makes them very vulnerable ... each heavy gunner has only one "meat shield" guardsman (well, three per squad) to keep him safe while he fires. You might want to place some heavy weapons in your infantry platoons instead.

One of your command squad is relying very heavily on flamers ... fine if you're going up against lightly armored troops like Orks or Dark Eldar, not so good if you're fighting more heavily armored foes. Another one's got a lot of plasma weapons, which can mitigate this problem ... assuming they survive their own weaponry! I mistrust plasma guns in the hands of lightly-armored troops.

Winterwind

2009-01-09, 07:31 AM

Psh, like you weren't expecting a "I hear people think your hobby sucks" post to generate responses :smalltongue:Indeed, I thought it might cause some turmoil here (I half expected being forced to start rolling Armour and Invulnerable saves, in spite of all effort of making clear this was not my own opinion - no, not Cover saves, flamers don't allow those :smalltongue:), but the insightfulness (is that even a word? :smallconfused:) of the responses exceeded my expectations (even though I know how thoughtful Playground posters tend to be :smallsmile:).

Wraith

2009-01-09, 09:09 AM

Wait, you have an invulnerable save!? I sense warpcraft hereabouts...! :smallwink:

I have to admit, I'm surprised that you are surprised, Winterwind. No game is perfect, be it Warhammer, D&D or Chess, so only the most deluded of fanboy would lose their temper and deny it outright. That the observations you pointed out are actually true probably helped :smallsmile:

Still, like I said before - here's hoping it's just a temporary thing, and some day soon a new ruling or something will kick-start a bit of innovation into the game. Until then, I suppose that I'm just going to have to get used to seeing my 20 Wraithguard vaporised in Turn 1.... :smallamused:

Winterwind

2009-01-09, 09:37 AM

Wait, you have an invulnerable save!? I sense warpcraft hereabouts...! :smallwink:Part of the job. It comes with the dental plan. :smalltongue:

I have to admit, I'm surprised that you are surprised, Winterwind. No game is perfect, be it Warhammer, D&D or Chess, so only the most deluded of fanboy would lose their temper and deny it outright. That the observations you pointed out are actually true probably helped :smallsmile:Oh, I did not expect anyone to lose their temper, not here in the Playground. What exceeded my expectations was the amount of insight into the game itself expressed in each and every response. :smallwink:

By the way, will be going to the shop today to get all those models. Feeling giddy already. :smallsmile:

I was thinking about a second list for 1000 point games, just to mix things up whenever I feel like doing so, and for once one devoted to only one Chaos God. What do you people think of this:

{table]Type|Composition|Equipment|Point Cost
HQ|Chaos Sorcerer|Mark of Slaanesh, Wings, Leash of Submission, Familiar, Gift of Chaos|180
Fast Attack|4 Chaos Raptors, 1 Aspirant Champion|Icon of Slaanesh, 1 melta, 1 flamer; powerweapon, meltabombs|170
Troops|10 Chaos Space Marines|1 melta, 1 lascannon|180
Troops|6 Noise Marines|5 sonic blasters, 1 blastmaster|185
Troops|5 Noise Marines, 1 Noise Marine Champion|4 sonic blasters, 1 blastmaster; 1 doomsiren, 1 powerweapon, meltabombs|235
attached:|Chaos-Rhino|Inferno-missile launcher|50
||
Total:|1000[/table]

Plus, of course, some Chaosspawns to take advantage of Gift of Chaos.I know it's probably weaker than that other list, but should be viable too, shouldn't it?

grinner666

2009-01-09, 09:59 AM

I've got some questions I can't find answers to in the rulebook, which probably means they're the kind of things that need interpretation every time you play.

*sighs* I hate that. I want my rules clear-cut, dammit!! :smallamused:

When you have a vehicle squadron, say Vypers or Landspeeders, do "wounds" get split up between the vehicles as they do in infantry squads, or do enemy squads need to target each vehicle separately?

Can Space Marine squads using the Combat Tactics special rule be split up into combat squads in-game, or do they need to deploy as combat squads?

Finally, does an attack bike attached to a bike squad count as a "bike" for making it a five-bike (thus Troops, if you've got a hero commander on a bike) squad?

That last question is just out of curiosity ... for now, at least. But I'm eventually planning on getting a Hero and command squad on bikes, so it'd be nice to know if I need to buy any more bikes to turn the squad I have now into a Troops choice. The other two are rather important to the way I play my army now, so any help anyone can give would be really appreciated.

:smallsmile:

Wait, you have an invulnerable save!? I sense warpcraft hereabouts...! :smallwink:

I wouldn't call it warpcraft ... the Traitors really don't have anything anyone could call a craft ... or skill, unless you count berserker rage as a skill. Warp MUTATION is more like it.

:smalltongue:

Zorg

2009-01-09, 10:33 AM

Does anyone know if there's any disadvantage to attempting to steal the initiative because I can't find any reason why you wouldn't go first unless you wanted to go second? Which you would only do for a last minute land-grab or to allow your opponent to come into weapons/ charge range for bikes like is seen in one White Dwarf battle report with 2000pts of Dark Angels and Tau.

Are there any mechanical disadvantages to failing to steal the initiative?

I've chosen to go second when it was dawn of war and I had a drop pod army - forced my opponent to bring on 90% of his forces with one scout squad to shoot at.

Grinner:

Page 64, Units of Vehicles - Shooting Phase. Basically total up penetrating and glancing hits then allocate as a squad of infantry. The same for assault except walkers who are treated as infantry in terms of engagement.

Marine Codex, page 51, after the list of who can split. Combat squad splitting must be done at deployment. The exception is for drop pods, who can elect to split or not when the pod lands, but must then remain as such for the rest of the game.

I would say yes, as the exact wording is "five models", not five bikes. That is my personal interpretation though.

Erloas

2009-01-09, 10:35 AM

When you have a vehicle squadron, say Vypers or Landspeeders, do "wounds" get split up between the vehicles as they do in infantry squads, or do enemy squads need to target each vehicle separately?

Can Space Marine squads using the Combat Tactics special rule be split up into combat squads in-game, or do they need to deploy as combat squads?

Finally, does an attack bike attached to a bike squad count as a "bike" for making it a five-bike (thus Troops, if you've got a hero commander on a bike) squad?

I believe for the first question is says vehicle squadrons are treated just like other units for shooting, so cover saves if half the models are behind cover even if one is not in cover at all, and wound allocation is done like in other units as well. I would assume that was done at the pinning/glancing level before the damage table is rolled.

For the space marines squads, I have no idea.

As for the attack bike in a normal bike squad, according to how they have it listed on the GW site (since I don't have the book) where it lists the unit composition as 1 sergent, 2-7 bikes and 0-1 attack bikes, I would say the attack bike counts towards any model count requirements for upgrades that the unit can take (such as being upgrade to troop instead of fast) unless the rule explicitely states otherwise.

grinner666

2009-01-09, 11:34 AM

Thanks, guys.

Oh, well ... so much for having my Rhinos transport two combat teams at once ... and my Landspeeder squadron is now roughly twice as vulnerable as I'd hoped it was. Maybe three times, depending on the number of 'Speeders I take in one squadron.

Assault marines it is, then!!

:smallwink:

:smallbiggrin:

Oracle_Hunter

2009-01-09, 12:50 PM

I wouldn't call it warpcraft ... the Traitors really don't have anything anyone could call a craft ... or skill, unless you count berserker rage as a skill. Warp MUTATION is more like it.

Magnus the Red (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Magnus_the_Red) called - he'd like to have a word with you :smallbiggrin:

grinner666

2009-01-09, 01:14 PM

Magnus the Red (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Magnus_the_Red) called - he'd like to have a word with you :smallbiggrin:

Magnus the Red can munch my loyal Chaplain's lily-white butt.

:smalltongue:

Glory to the Emperor!

A burning death to heretic scum!!

:smallbiggrin:

Ghal Marak

2009-01-09, 02:42 PM

I've been trying a wildly different deamonhunters list every game I've played to get a feel for the units, and this is the newest one. I plan on fielding it later today.

I can't quite remember the points cost of each unit, but I do know that it totaled up to 996 points.

Thanks Winterwind for posting a table I can rip-off. :smallwink:
{table]Type|Composition|Equipment|Point Cost
HQ|Brother-Captain|Icon of the Just, Master-Crafted Plasma Pistol, Emperor's Tarot|131
Troops|8 Grey Knights, 1 Justicar|2xPsycannon|300
Troops|10 Inquisitorial Stormtroopers|2xPlasma Gun|120
Heavy Support|Grey Knights Dreadnought|Twin-Linked Lascannon, Missile Launcher, Extra Armor, Blessed|155
Heavy Support|Grey Knights Dreadnought|Plasma Cannon, Psycannon bolts, Extra Armor, Blessed|140?
Heavy Support|Grey Knights Dreadnought|Plasma Cannon, Psycannon bolts, Extra Armor, Blessed|140?
||
Total:|996?[/table]

With the first Dread as long range firesupport, the other two would advance along side the Stormtroopers, with the Grey Knights staying back with the stationary dread (though that can easily be swapped). The Plasma Cannons would decimate horde armies, and because of the psycannon bolts upgrade their storm bolters have AP4. The Blessed upgrade gives them +1 on the damage chart against vehicles with certain upgrades (I can't remember which at the moment) and more importantly let them benefit from The Aegis (which is pretty much a psychic hood). And there you have it. :smallbiggrin:

Oh, and I've got another question. In the rules for The Aegis, it mentions that Grey Knights are completely impervious to Minor Psyker powers, no rolls needed. Thing is, I have no idea what minor psyker powers are, having never seen them in any codex. Is it something that has been phased out from the newer editions?

Winterwind

2009-01-09, 02:48 PM

Magnus the Red can munch my loyal Chaplain's lily-white butt.

:smalltongue:

Glory to the Emperor!

A burning death to heretic scum!!

:smallbiggrin:The heretic scum is in such happy mood, having just come home with a brand-new army, that it does not hold your inconsiderate words against you :smallbiggrin:.

Besides, a burning death is not unlikely... nor is it undesirable, as long as we take you with us. For the Blood God does not care whose blood flows, as long as it flows. Death to the False Emperor! :smallfurious:
Wow, now here's one of the rare occasions where this smiley actually makes sense...

Thanks Winterwind for posting a table I can rip-off. :smallwink:Don't thank me for that - I ripped it off myself from evil_d4_swarm. Aww, and I never even thanked for that. Sorry, evil_d4_swarm. Thank you. :smallwink:

grinner666

2009-01-09, 02:51 PM

Oh, and I've got another question. In the rules for The Aegis, it mentions that Grey Knights are completely impervious to Minor Psyker powers, no rolls needed. Thing is, I have no idea what minor psyker powers are, having never seen them in any codex. Is it something that has been phased out from the newer editions?

Powers that require no psychic test, like the Eldar Warlocks' Conceal and Destructor powers.

Interesting army list. Let us know how well it works out ... the relative lack of Troops choices is a bit of a concern from where I'm sitting. BTW you should remember that the Dreadnought can move and fire its weapons ... so there's really little or no need for the "support" Dred to hang back, unless you're trying to avoid incoming fire on it.

:smallbiggrin:

Ghal Marak

2009-01-09, 03:33 PM

Powers that require no psychic test, like the Eldar Warlocks' Conceal and Destructor powers.

Interesting army list. Let us know how well it works out ... the relative lack of Troops choices is a bit of a concern from where I'm sitting. BTW you should remember that the Dreadnought can move and fire its weapons ... so there's really little or no need for the "support" Dred to hang back, unless you're trying to avoid incoming fire on it.

:smallbiggrin:

Yeah, lack of troops is a problem. But it can be fixed by droping a Plasma Cannon 'nought and taking another Stormtrooper squad. Alternatively, I could drop both Plas'noughts and take a Grey Knights Purgation Squad, kitted with 4xPsycannons. That would also leave enough points for a half strength squad of Stormtroopers to act as a firing screen for the Purgation squad.

And the Las'nought could move about, but there's no point in advancing. I ditched the CCW for the missile launcher.

Tren

2009-01-09, 04:21 PM

Powers that require no psychic test, like the Eldar Warlocks' Conceal and Destructor powers.

Actually no, there's no such thing as minor psychic powers anymore in 5th edition, and I didn't think they were in 4th either. Though now that you mention it, that does sound like a great house rule to add some zing to Grey Knights, and give them a bit more fluffy flavor.

hamishspence

2009-01-09, 05:25 PM

Originally, minor powers were anything you had to roll randomly for. Were in Chapter Approved and the old Chaos Codex.

however, Imperial Guard and Orks have randomly generated powers (IG at start of battle, orks every turn) and its not clear whether they are minor or not.

Wraith

2009-01-09, 05:37 PM

Actually no, there's no such thing as minor psychic powers anymore in 5th edition, and I didn't think they were in 4th either. Though now that you mention it, that does sound like a great house rule to add some zing to Grey Knights, and give them a bit more fluffy flavor.

You are indeed correct about 5th Edition, although an urging in the back of my mind insisted that I check my old rulebook to find out about 4th edition, when it was relevant.

Bizarrely, the 4th edition Rulebook defines a minor psychic power as 'any psychic power that is not used to make a shooting attack, during a phase other than the shooting phase'. (Page 52, just about the heading "Perils of the Warp" if anyone wants to see for themselves).

The Codices probably each had their own interpretation, but I have to say that seems a) extremely poorly defined and b) made The Aegis extremely bloody powerful in the last edition!

*Grey Knight Army List*

Seems like a fun army to play - giving your Brother-Captain an icon of the Just is a very sensible idea in lieu of a bodyguard of Terminators. I question the necessity of a Master Crafted Plasma Pistol, given that he already has a Storm Bolter and a Nemesis Weapon that he can use in Close Combat. I'd be tempted instead to just give him Psybolts, as the pistol doesn't seem to serve much use.

I would also consider exchanging both of your Dreadnoughts' Plasma Cannons for Heavy Bolters. They're still going to be extremely useful against horde armies, still enough to take on anything up to and including MEQ armies, and on top of that you get all the more use out of your delicious Psybolt upgrades.
If you come across a tank that stubbornly refuses to yield to your slightly-weaker Bolters.... well, that's what the strength 10 Power Fists are for! :smallbiggrin:

But that's just me and the last time I played Grey Knights I was annihalated to the last man, by Chaos Space Marines no less..... :smalltongue:

hamishspence

2009-01-09, 05:41 PM

the words after this were "Most commonly, these are minor psychic powers"

so it wasn't a definition, merely a comment.

Oracle_Hunter

2009-01-09, 05:48 PM

Though now that you mention it, that does sound like a great house rule to add some zing to Grey Knights, and give them a bit more fluffy flavor.

And screw over the Eldar some more. Because, y'know, they're the weakest psyker race in WH40K :smallannoyed:

evil_d4_swarm

2009-01-09, 05:52 PM

Don't thank me for that - I ripped it off myself from evil_d4_swarm. Aww, and I never even thanked for that. Sorry, evil_d4_swarm. Thank you. :smallwink:

No, thank you. :smallbiggrin:

Every time someone used my table, my brain goes "Yay! someone used my design!"

So I thank everyone who uses it for using it. :smallbiggrin:

...

On another note, I posted this a while back:

Would it be viable to replace one of my hammerheads' railguns with a ion cannon (R 60", S 7, AP 4, Heavy 3) ? I could take out light vehicle squadrons that way, with the three shots.

If it is a good idea, what should I do with the extra 36 points I have left in my army?

List:

http://i732.photobucket.com/albums/ww327/evil_d4_swarm/292ce6fe.png

Ghal Marak

2009-01-09, 05:55 PM

You are indeed correct about 5th Edition, although an urging in the back of my mind insisted that I check my old rulebook to find out about 4th edition, when it was relevant.

Bizarrely, the 4th edition Rulebook defines a minor psychic power as 'any psychic power that is not used to make a shooting attack, during a phase other than the shooting phase'. (Page 52, just about the heading "Perils of the Warp" if anyone wants to see for themselves).

The Codices probably each had their own interpretation, but I have to say that seems a) extremely poorly defined and b) made The Aegis extremely bloody powerful in the last edition!

Huh, that is wierd. More than likely, I'll just ignore that sentance unless it's specificaly stated in a power being used that it is minor.

Seems like a fun army to play - giving your Brother-Captain an icon of the Just is a very sensible idea in lieu of a bodyguard of Terminators. I question the necessity of a Master Crafted Plasma Pistol, given that he already has a Storm Bolter and a Nemesis Weapon that he can use in Close Combat. I'd be tempted instead to just give him Psybolts, as the pistol doesn't seem to serve much use.

True, I could have stayed with the Storm Bolter. But think on this: They use the Storm Bolter as a pistol in cc, but not on charges right? Well, with a plasma pistol he now gets that +1 Attack even on charges. But yeah, I might just ditch it and give him psybolts.

I would also consider exchanging both of your Dreadnoughts' Plasma Cannons for Heavy Bolters. They're still going to be extremely useful against horde armies, still enough to take on anything up to and including MEQ armies, and on top of that you get all the more use out of your delicious Psybolt upgrades.
If you come across a tank that stubbornly refuses to yield to your slightly-weaker Bolters.... well, that's what the strength 10 Power Fists are for! :smallbiggrin:

I thought alot about switching to heavy bolters, and I probably will if I do fight a horde army (I don't actualy know who I'm playing yet, probably orks). But one problem is that Psybolts do not affect Heavy Bolters. In the text is says it lowers the AP of bolt weapons to 4, not by -1. Heavy Bolters already have AP4, so it's of no use to them. If I do switch 'em, I'd ditch the Psybolts and give them Incinerators instead of Storm Bolters.

But that's just me and the last time I played Grey Knights I was annihalated to the last man, by Chaos Space Marines no less..... :smalltongue:

Ouch. I bet they were bragging about it too. I've yet to play the local Chaos player, but it ought to be an epic battle when I do. :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: Anyway, I'll post about the battle(s) Monday.

hamishspence

2009-01-09, 06:06 PM

it could be that the sentence was being misused by people eager to define as many powers as possible as "minor"

Since it isn't a definition, but simply a "powers Like This are usually minor" statement, must be specifically called out as Minor in the codex itself to qualify for Aegis.

Tren

2009-01-09, 06:11 PM

And screw over the Eldar some more. Because, y'know, they're the weakest psyker race in WH40K :smallannoyed:

Because I know I totally depend on my warlock's one offensive option to take down a bunch of grey knights :smallwink: If anything it Screws 'nids who have at least a few powers that affect enemy units and don't require a test.

Edit: Also, Ghal if you look in your FAQ it says to ignore any references to minor psychic powers as they're from old rules. Even barring that I don't believe any codex in print currently has anything identified as a "minor" psychic power.

Ash08

2009-01-10, 12:47 AM

Winterwind

2009-01-10, 12:53 AM

Quick Space Marine related question... according to the 5th ed. codex a basic Space Marin is armed with a bolter and a bolter pistol. Does that mean that if I want to assault that turn I can simply have the squad fire their bolter pistols instead of their bolters... and if thats possible... then wouldn't space marines get two attacks for wielding two close combat weapons(the bolter pistol and a "combat knife")?
please pardon my confused questions.Oooh, oooh! I can answer those! :smallbiggrin:

Yes, if you want to assault, you should shoot the boltpistols to get at least one attack.

Marines do indeed get two attacks for wielding two close combat weapons, those are not indicated in the profile though (the profile contains only base stats of the model, not bonus attacks it might get from various rules - including the rule that it gets a bonus attack from wielding two weapons).

grinner666

2009-01-10, 01:06 AM

I'm going to a nearby games store (well, relatively nearby ... 35 miles away) this afternoon to play my White Scars. I've set up army lists for 2000, 1500 and 1000 points. Any smaller than that, and I don't wanna play 'em. :smallwink:

So I should have a battle report or two to give tonight or Sunday.

Oh, and I finished painting my Dreadnought tonight!! I'll post a link on the models thread after I get ahold of my sister's digital camera in the morning.

:smallbiggrin:

Zorg

2009-01-10, 08:58 AM

Marines do indeed get two attacks for wielding two close combat weapons, those are not indicated in the profile though (the profile contains only base stats of the model, not bonus attacks it might get from various rules - including the rule that it gets a bonus attack from wielding two weapons).

Except marines don't have combat knives. Scouts can if they replace their bolter.

Winterwind

2009-01-10, 09:04 AM

Except marines don't have combat knives. Scouts can if they replace their bolter.Huh? Loyalist Space Marines don't get a close combat weapon by default? They have to choose between bolter+boltpistol and boltpistol+close combat weapon? They don't start with all three? :smallconfused:
Suddenly, I'm feeling even happier to be traitor scum. :smallbiggrin:

Zorg

2009-01-10, 10:21 AM

Nope, but they do get nifty things like Knowing No Fear, Combat Tactics and Combat Squads to make up for it.

Default Tac Marine equipment is:
Power Armour
Bolter
Bolt Pistol
Frag & Krak grenades

Rayzin

2009-01-10, 10:25 AM

I thought every single unit, as long as its not wielding a heavy weapon, has a CC weapon.

Dr. Bath

2009-01-10, 10:31 AM

I thought every single unit, as long as its not wielding a heavy weapon, has a CC weapon.

Everything (even heavy weapons) is considered to have one, of some kind I always thought. It just doesn't give any bonus/have any in-game effect. It's more for fluff than anything else I suppose. Firing a bolter at point-blank range is a fairly bad idea, and whist killing xenos/heretics/traitors/demons with their bare hands is pretty badass, it's fairly ridiculous...

Erloas

2009-01-10, 10:33 AM

Every unit is considered to have CC weapon in so far as they can all fight in close combat. When a specific close combat weapon isn't listed on their wargear then it is assumed they are using their pistol (if they have one) or simply using the weight of whatever gun they are using as a club. If they don't have a normal close combat weapon listed then they don't have another weapon to pair up with their pistol, and using a normal weapon as a club is general thought to be too heavy/unsuited for the task to be able to use two of them at once. Most rifles/basic infantry guns would probably be swung with 2 hands in close combat.

Da King

2009-01-10, 10:34 AM

In game terms, no, unless it is specifically listed in the unit's war gear that it has a close combat weapon, it does not. This is probably to make it clear when a model does/does not get the extra attack for having two close combat weapons.

Winterwind

2009-01-10, 10:44 AM

Nope, but they do get nifty things like Knowing No Fear, Combat Tactics and Combat Squads to make up for it.

Default Tac Marine equipment is:
Power Armour
Bolter
Bolt Pistol
Frag & Krak grenadesI see... well, okay, no bonus attack for the dogs of the False Emperor then. :smalltongue:

Know No Fear seems a bit like a double-edged sword to me, with the way it works in close combat - isn't it usually better to not have Know No Fear but a higher Leadership Value? Because, the way I understand it, the team with KNF will not break if they lose close combat, but will suffer additional wounds; a team that doesn't have KNF but succeeds at the Leadership test will not break either, but suffer no additional wounds.

Dr. Bath

2009-01-10, 10:57 AM

I see... well, okay, no bonus attack for the dogs of the False Emperor then. :smalltongue:

Know No Fear seems a bit like a double-edged sword to me, with the way it works in close combat - isn't it usually better to not have Know No Fear but a higher Leadership Value? Because, the way I understand it, the team with KNF will not break if they lose close combat, but will suffer additional wounds; a team that doesn't have KNF but succeeds at the Leadership test will not break either, but suffer no additional wounds.

Know no fear always used to be that you automatically regroup after retreating 2d6, nothing about losing wounds or anything like that, it just means you don't have to take leadership tests to regroup and squads below 50% could still come back.

When did Chaos Space Marines get four arms anyway?

grinner666

2009-01-10, 11:01 AM

Know No Fear seems a bit like a double-edged sword to me, with the way it works in close combat - isn't it usually better to not have Know No Fear but a higher Leadership Value? Because, the way I understand it, the team with KNF will not break if they lose close combat, but will suffer additional wounds; a team that doesn't have KNF but succeeds at the Leadership test will not break either, but suffer no additional wounds.

No. It's only if the squad is caught up in a sweeping advance, which would automatically destroy any other unit; at that point they become subject to the No Retreat! rule for one round of combat.

hamishspence

2009-01-10, 11:04 AM

pistol could fit in the slightly undersized holster that comes with models. Some pics of marines suggest that they carry a scabbard for their chainswords. And bolters are typically depicted with shoulder straps.

CSMs are, aside from Space wolves, currently, the only marines for who "the bolter and Chainsword" (and pistol) really are standard issue.

Winterwind

2009-01-10, 11:31 AM

Know no fear always used to be that you automatically regroup after retreating 2d6, nothing about losing wounds or anything like that, it just means you don't have to take leadership tests to regroup and squads below 50% could still come back.Oh, so Know No Fear is not the same as Fearless? I see, nevermind then. :smallredface:
I still have so much to learn...

Well, apply what I said to Fearless, then. Isn't Fearless usually a rather undesirable trait? Particularly in close combat units?

When did Chaos Space Marines get four arms anyway?Since the Chaos Gods wanted them to. :smalltongue:

Dr. Bath

2009-01-10, 11:38 AM

Well, apply what I said to Fearless, then. Isn't Fearless usually a rather undesirable trait?

Since the Chaos Gods wanted them to. :smalltongue:

Depends on what you want your unit to be doing. And what size they are. A HUEG mob of fairly weak guys will do really well with fearless, sure, you'll lose a lot of men, but they'll pin the enemy for an age and won't run off to the other side of the board as soon as you lose half. In a twenty to thirty man squad, having ten or fifteen still alive but unable to regroup is really annoying. But I don't think many units have fearless anyway.

I always thought that with Chaos Space Marines (the basic troops choice ones) they were given the option to have EITHER a Bolter + Bolt pistol OR a Bolt pistol + chainsword. Otherwise it's a bit ridiculous. Even Space wolves don't get Bolter and chainsword AND bolt pistol, otherwise there would be no point in having true grit.

hamishspence

2009-01-10, 11:44 AM

which, I think, was the point- CSMs got True Grit Plus, the cheap way- by having the right weapons. they lost all their Veteran Skills though.

Rayzin

2009-01-10, 11:45 AM

Well, apply what I said to Fearless, then. Isn't Fearless usually a rather undesirable trait? Particularly in close combat units?

If your using elite troops with alot of attacks and a high initiative its good. Beserkers or Bloodletters are examples. The only thing is you have to make sure you can basically wipe out there entire squad or most of it on your attacks.

I think the only soldiers that are cheap with fearless are Ork mobs and they are fearless until they have 11 or less boyz.

Dr. Bath

2009-01-10, 11:52 AM

which, I think, was the point- CSMs got True Grit Plus, the cheap way- by having the right weapons. they lost all their Veteran Skills though.

And they're less points. And that is a lot better than true grit. Which is what strikes me as odd. And I'm sure didn't used to be the case. But I haven't read the CSM codex since 3rd ed.

@^ Orks aren't fearless at 12+ boyz, they just automatically pass any and all leadership tests. It's different. And better.

Erloas

2009-01-10, 11:57 AM

Well, apply what I said to Fearless, then. Isn't Fearless usually a rather undesirable trait? Particularly in close combat units?

Well just like everything else, it is highly situational. Lets take the example of Orks vs Eldar for instance. Lets say eldar win combat by 2 points, not a lot but something. But with an Ork leadership of 7 for most units thats going to be most likely failing, having to roll a 5, so they have to run. Most Ork units are I2, and most eldar (at least the elites that are going to be beating orks in CC) are I5, which means the ork player has to out-roll the eldar player by 4 to escape, which means the ork player has to roll a 5/6 and the eldar player has to roll a 1/2. So in that case you would much rather have your orks take 2 more wounds and stay around then to have them almost guarenteed to be wiped out.

Another example would be an eldar player using a unit of guardians as a meat shield being backed up by an avatar (making the guardians fearless). In that case the whole point of the guardians are to stay in combat and force the opponent to wipe them out to the last man, giving them time to get the avatar into combat to kill the enemy. Lets say its 10 guardians and 5 of them die, taking a break test on a 3 (5 with a farseer around) means those guardians are most likely running, and the unit they were engaged with are free to charge something else. If they were fearless they would take some more wounds, but likely to save at least 1 and have one person left in combat. This forces the opponent to take their next turn with that unit to kill that last guardian and end up stuck there to be shot to pieces or charged by something big and nasty (such as the avatar). Sure the guardians are dead, but they still servered their purpose, and with that sort of tactical use of them it really doesn't matter if there are 10 left in the unit or just 1, so long as it ties up the unit long enough to accomplish a task, and with fearless that is much more likely.

Rayzin

2009-01-10, 12:09 PM

hamishspence

2009-01-10, 12:16 PM

Marine, Eldar, anyone with a two-handed gun- usual rule is- their one attack comes from fist, and bolt pistol doesn't add to it. Which is why, say, Storm Guardians, are always called out as having pistol and CCW.

Eldan

2009-01-10, 12:24 PM

Army list for a 500 pts. game, tonight against Lorn.

http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/9540/reianar500ny8.jpg

I wanted to play with bikes. Haven't done that in years.

Ash08

2009-01-10, 12:27 PM

Against the Tau(I am well awhare that this is a waste of a land raider... however my army is lacking transports that don't get blown up too quickly) today, my plan is to charge them with a tactical squad in a landraider and a tactical sqaud in a drop pod and nab the objective that way... at the same time my Vanguard veterans and Assault Marines would charge heriocly across the board with a devastator and sniper socut squad to hold down the fort... good idea or not?

Lorn

2009-01-10, 12:31 PM

Army list for tonight against Eldan. 500 points. Guard.

http://i443.photobucket.com/albums/qq156/Anatheus/a120e038.jpg

Seven heavy bolters :smallamused: Very different to my normal lists of charging Conscript-based death...

Eldan

2009-01-10, 12:33 PM

Ah, you went with guard. I made a fast army with some anti-infantry capabilities.

Dr. Bath

2009-01-10, 12:39 PM

A quick question, what does doom do? The spell for Eldar.

Fearless is also a really awesome rule if your getting shot at, no combat resolution and you just keep on moving. Plaugebearers have feel no pain and are fearless so they can slog across the field and teleport all your units in.

Also the Mob Rule says that If a Ork mob numbers 11 or more models, it has the fearless special rule.

Huh. Again, I lose out to rule changes. Because in the codex I have hear you just take a mob size check, (2d6 and if the number is less than the number of boyz you pass the leadership test) which of course you automatically pass with 12+ boyz.

Nerf! :smalltongue:

Lorn

2009-01-10, 12:47 PM

Ah, you went with guard. I made a fast army with some anti-infantry capabilities.
And I made one with lots of AP4 weapons... heh.

Should be interesting, at least.

Tren

2009-01-10, 12:57 PM

A quick question, what does doom do? The spell for Eldar.

It allows all to wound rolls against a particular unit within 24'' of the farseer to be re-rolled till the start of the next Eldar turn. So it goes through their turn, through your turn, until the start of their next turn.

Zorg

2009-01-10, 01:09 PM

Yes but doesn't the base space marine attack come from him supposedly having a weapon stored away(thats what i read in the rulebook)? I just said combat knifes as an example... because a lot of the space marines I've made have those little knives with them(I know they're decoration... but isn't that what gives them their first base attack).

So overall can a space marine with a bolter and a bolt pistol can't get 2 atttacks?

The weapon stored away is the pistol.

Way back when everything had it's own strength and armour save mod, pistols could be used in hand to hand just like shooting (they were classed as close combat weapons). This has carried over through the editions so that now even with the simplification of assault weapons (ie, there are power weapons and not power weapons with no AP, rather than a power sword having a S5 with a -1 save and a power axe having S6 with -3 save mod) they can still be used in assault. However it's a bit odd as a previously AP2 plasma pistol is now an AP- close combat weapon.

So a marine gets:
1 attack base - this could be rationalised as his fists, a knife, bayonette or his pistol. Games mechanics wise it's his pistol.

To get two attacks he'd need a second hand to hand weapon in his equipment list, assault marines have pistols and chainswords for example, so they always have at least two attacks. Miniature wise I don't think anyone will care they have knives and pistols any more than making sure they all have grenades on them.

So overall in the current codex I don't think there's any way a marine can have a bolter and have a weapon based +1 attack.

Against Tau, what type of Land Raider were you going to take? The Redeemer is solid, as it has AP3 flamers that'll kill everything short of a broadside, assault cannons that can chew everything else up, and can take a multi-melta. The crusader really depends on if you'll be facing suits and tanks or hordes of kroot and FW's. The reverse for the 'regular' LR. Now LRs can move 12" and fire one gun, I'd roll forward 12" and smoke first turn, then another 12" and fire one gun, deploying the troops and then stit still and wail on the Tau in turn three. Personally I'd avoid the temptation to fire more than one gun as the LR's duty is a transport so if it doesn't get the tac squad there ASAP it's at least 265 points wasted (265 because extra armour is a 100% necessity now that machine spirit doesn't allow for movement).

The only thing is if you're charging with the tac squad that if you only have three troops choices (from what you've written), if they come off worse for wear you'll be seriously short on objective capturing.

I'd put a locator beacon on the drop pod, so the Vanguard can heroicly intervene next to it without fear of scattering. Overall seems pretty solid, just make sure the drop pod tac squad doesn't get too isolated early on, or it'll get chopped to ribbons by masses of close in Tau gunfire. If I were the Tau player I'd try to screen my forces with your advancing units for cover saves, and blast anything that gets too close - kill the drop pod, kill the jump troops, and hopefully when the LR rolls up it will be all alone (banking on the hope it'll only be going at 6" per turn to shoot at things with lascannons).

wow, i get long winded when I'm tired :smalltongue:

Oracle_Hunter

2009-01-10, 01:10 PM

A quick question, what does doom do? The spell for Eldar.

What part of DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM don't you understand? :smalltongue:

Seriously though, it allows re-rolls for all wound rolls against the target unit. It makes Banshees effective against Space Marines, among other things.

EDIT: Ninja'd Stealth Suit'd!

Ash08

2009-01-10, 07:38 PM

Well Zorg thank you for your indepth explanation and evaluation of my "plan". The land raider would be a redeemer... I would also have a chaplain and a unit of sniper scouts maybe even another tactical squad or a librarian... however the 1,500-2,000 point game never happened, we flaked out and just did a nice and easy 500 point game... I lost. We played capture and control pitched battle... in the end I had his base and had mine, we settled it by kill points. He won.

evil_d4_swarm

2009-01-10, 10:05 PM

On another note, I posted this a while back:

Would it be viable to replace one of my hammerheads' railguns with a ion cannon (R 60", S 7, AP 4, Heavy 3) ? I could take out light vehicle squadrons that way, with the three shots.

If it is a good idea, what should I do with the extra 36 points I have left in my army?

List:

http://i732.photobucket.com/albums/ww327/evil_d4_swarm/292ce6fe.png

Here is another repost of my question.

Altima

2009-01-10, 11:21 PM

Here is another repost of my question.

Hammerhead Railguns are just too good to pass up. Between the huge submunitions shot and then the max strength single shell, it usually isn't. The ion cannon isn't bad, per say, it's just that the railgun is that good.

On the other hand, I don't see much use for your broadside suits. Their twin-linked railguns are only the single shot variety--they don't get submunitions.

From the look of your list, it looks like you're a turtler. That's a pretty dangerous strategy in the new edition. The last thing you want is a scout/infiltrate squad popping out right next to your firewarrior squads, assaulting, gutting them, then staying in cover. Likewise, you don't want a visit paid to you by the new marines who happily can drop down in pods and assault the same turn they come in.

I'd drop your broadsides for another Hammerhead, or some transports for your firewarriors (preferably with smart missiles). I'd drop Shadowsun, too. You might also want to drop the kroot--if you're turtling, all they'll do is act as a speed boost, and as decent as they seem compared to firewarriors, most things that can do close combat can take out kroot quickly, especially since there's no shaper.

Consider getting some more suits. Barring that, get some stealth suits. The burst cannons mow down weak, massed infantry (tyranids, orks).

Tau do their best in a mechanized list. That is, moving about the battlefield, and using their superior firepower and fire control to put some serious hurt on the enemy. The standard fish of fury does well to keep you out of melee.

The problem with 5th edition (and, of course, all the 4.5 and 5th edition armies--the ones that started with Dark Angels and Eldar--who are far and away a lot more powerful than you are) is that life is no longer good for the Tau.

You've lost the ability to effectively turtle. There's a lot more mission-based objectives now. Not only that, but the new infiltration/scout movies will allow enemies to almost instantly hit your lines with ease.

Next to that, you've lost a good portion of your firepower. A lot of armies that can turtle or shoot as well as you (what's that? Eldar pathfinders with 2+ cover saves? Yay) will simply wear you out. Add to that that skimmers no longer are harder to hit than any other vehicle and that all vehicles hit in melee are hit from behind, and you run the risk of being gutted.

Last, but not least, is the tactic of unit wrapping. It's not a pretty or, in fact, fair tactic. Basically, you take two (preferably large) units, like gaunts, and 'wrap' them around themselves, so that at least half of each squad is hidden behind the other squad. The effect? Gaunts getting 4+ cover saves. Now, keep in mind, that the maximum gaunt squad size is 32 models, which can be gotten for, at cheapest, 160 points. So imagine trying to wittle away at sixty-four wounds of models that will not break, who can fleet, and who can butcher firewarriors in combat.

Erloas

2009-01-11, 12:20 AM

Well I only ended up with one game today. It was 2000pts vs IG, a different IG player this time.
The game ended up being anihilation and spearhead deployment.

I went with something a little different with this list, using an autarch on a jetbike rather then a second farseer. He didn't do too bad considering the blasted the sniper/assassin on the second turn before he got to kill much, but even with his plasma gun he failed to destroy many vehicles (not that he didn't have plenty of opportunities). He didn't really seem any more useful then a farseer though, so I'm not sure how much playtime he will see (I'll probably have him in 1 of the 3 lists I make up if I do that). I mostly fielded him because I had just finished putting the model together... but when I was looking though my models to put him on the board after writing the list he was no where to be found, I ended up leaving him at home on my desk.
At 2000pts it used almost every model I have, about the only choices I had was weapon choices for my vehicles. If I really pushed things I could probably hit 2250, but thats it.

My TL-brightlance on my wave serpent did very little, and my EML-warwalker survived a lot of shooting thanks to cover but failed to wound a lemen russ several times while shooting it in the back.

His artillery tank (basilisk?) managed to drop its large blast right on my unit of dire avengers right after they got out of their transport and wiped them all out in a single hit. It exploded the first time I got into range to shoot at it though.

My banshees managed to miss a difficult terrain test against his lascannons HW crew, when they needed a 3 using 3d6. Luckily the banshees didn't take a whole lot of return fire... and for whatever reason he charged them with one of his squads which was dead before it even got to attack.

The most annoying thing he had was a set of 2 deamonhosts, one just chased a wave serpent around, and just managed to be annoying by first turn getting T7 making the dire avengers single set of shots in the game less effective, and then the next turn regenerating all the wounds I did manage to get. The other one played with a small unit of jetbikes for a couple turns, he managed to kill them but it took a while.

The lemen russ's (there were 2) were kind of annoying, their template was pretty good, but what was really annoying about them is that all of my shots against them for the first 3-4 rounds managed to miss and fail to wound even with TL-bightlances and plasma guns and missile launchers. At least by later in the game I killed one (after one round of immobilizing it and blowing of 3 weapons) and I took off the primary gun of the other. It managed to ram my EML warwalker and blow it up. The last round I had about 11 str 6 shots at the rear and the brightlances on the side and didn't manage to do anything at all to it. Not that it really mattered at that point, it was his last model on the table.

End result I had 20 killpoints (out of 21 possible) and he had 8 killpoints out of 17 possible.

Altima

2009-01-11, 01:12 AM

I went with something a little different with this list, using an autarch on a jetbike rather then a second farseer. He didn't do too bad considering the blasted the sniper/assassin on the second turn before he got to kill much, but even with his plasma gun he failed to destroy many vehicles (not that he didn't have plenty of opportunities). He didn't really seem any more useful then a farseer though, so I'm not sure how much playtime he will see (I'll probably have him in 1 of the 3 lists I make up if I do that). I mostly fielded him because I had just finished putting the model together... but when I was looking though my models to put him on the board after writing the list he was no where to be found, I ended up leaving him at home on my desk.
At 2000pts it used almost every model I have, about the only choices I had was weapon choices for my vehicles. If I really pushed things I could probably hit 2250, but thats it.

Giving him a lance, jetbike, and scorpion him, and he gets something like 6 S6 attacks on the charge. Against vehicles, he ALWAYS hits rear armor. Most rear armor is AV10 or 11.

Typically, Autarchs are used in the above mentioned formation, usually in a squad of Shining Spears, or they're the jump pack variety, usually with the grenades.

However, you are correct. Autarchs really do kinda suck for their points cost.

My TL-brightlance on my wave serpent did very little, and my EML-warwalker survived a lot of shooting thanks to cover but failed to wound a lemen russ several times while shooting it in the back.

That's just bad luck, but brightlances on a wave serpent is quite a bit expensive. You might have more luck getting a guardian squad with a weapon platform. You might even wanna try a Wraithlord with EML and brightlance. As an MC, it can fire both on the same turn, and if you stick it in cover, coupled with its high toughness, and it'll be quite impressive.

His artillery tank (basilisk?) managed to drop its large blast right on my unit of dire avengers right after they got out of their transport and wiped them all out in a single hit. It exploded the first time I got into range to shoot at it though.

Yeah, the basilisk is one of the best tanks in the game. However, it has a glass jaw. If you can infiltrate scorpions, you can easily smack it with the claw until it's dead, since the player will, more than likely, stick it in as far out of LoS as possible.

My banshees managed to miss a difficult terrain test against his lascannons HW crew, when they needed a 3 using 3d6. Luckily the banshees didn't take a whole lot of return fire... and for whatever reason he charged them with one of his squads which was dead before it even got to attack.

You even failed your fleet roll? Also, banshees are kind of a waste of IG. They just don't have anything that needs that many power attacks. Unless they bright allies.

The most annoying thing he had was a set of 2 deamonhosts, one just chased a wave serpent around, and just managed to be annoying by first turn getting T7 making the dire avengers single set of shots in the game less effective, and then the next turn regenerating all the wounds I did manage to get. The other one played with a small unit of jetbikes for a couple turns, he managed to kill them but it took a while.

Yeah, daemonhosts are annoying, but like every Daemonhunter, it's way, way expensive. He did have the required HQ Inquisitor, right?

The lemen russ's (there were 2) were kind of annoying, their template was pretty good, but what was really annoying about them is that all of my shots against them for the first 3-4 rounds managed to miss and fail to wound even with TL-bightlances and plasma guns and missile launchers. At least by later in the game I killed one (after one round of immobilizing it and blowing of 3 weapons) and I took off the primary gun of the other. It managed to ram my EML warwalker and blow it up. The last round I had about 11 str 6 shots at the rear and the brightlances on the side and didn't manage to do anything at all to it. Not that it really mattered at that point, it was his last model on the table.

Yeah, the best way to deal with the Russes are to hit side/rear armor, or assault it. Warp Spiders or Hawks with haywire grenades come to mind.

Also, I was under the impression that kill points were for individual models, not for squads. I assume that an IG would have more than 23 models on the table. Unless he was trying to be cute with an AC, in which case he got what he deserved.

But yeah, between scorpions and banshees, against IG, scorpions are better (outflanking to the rescure!). More high strength attacks are better than weak, power weapon attacks. Worst-case scenario, you face some GKs or SoB, but you'll kill about the same.

Tren

2009-01-11, 01:26 AM

Also, I was under the impression that kill points were for individual models, not for squads. I assume that an IG would have more than 23 models on the table. Unless he was trying to be cute with an AC, in which case he got what he deserved.

No, definitely not. Kill points are earned by eliminating units, not individual models, otherwise short of boarding your opponent there'd be no way for the average nid, ork, or IG player to possibly win a game.

Altima

2009-01-11, 02:05 AM

No, definitely not. Kill points are earned by eliminating units, not individual models, otherwise short of boarding your opponent there'd be no way for the average nid, ork, or IG player to possibly win a game.

My bad, I was confused. It's by squads (which still screws IG fairly well) and other independant thingies.

And it'd only be impossible to win on games that used kill points.

Oh kill points, how I loathe thee. I miss VPs.

Bryn

2009-01-11, 07:28 AM

Like victory points? Bring them back. Outside of official tournaments and probably games in stores, absolutely nothing stops you and your opponent from playing based on VPs instead of KPs.

Anyway, I think my Vulture is about the unluckiest plane ever to fly.

Baneblade. Side armour 13. The Vulture had a twin-linked lascannon and six S8 missiles. All of that fired at the Baneblade in a desperate bid to destroy it as soon as possible.

Absolutely no effect. Not even a temporary one. The Vulture emptied its entire stock of missiles and didn't even scratch the paint :smallbiggrin:

That Baneblade and all the nearby Leman Russes proved equally ineffective at bringing down the Vulture, which survived several more turns of lascannon fire before eventually being brought down by a lucky Chaos Marine. By that point, the game was already lost.

Baxter190

2009-01-11, 09:59 AM

Okay, how do I make the table so I can show you guys my army list? I'd like your guy's advice on it.

Eldan

2009-01-11, 10:22 AM

I just used excel, made a screenshot and uploaded it.

Erloas

2009-01-11, 10:22 AM

Giving him a lance, jetbike, and scorpion him, and he gets something like 6 S6 attacks on the charge. Against vehicles, he ALWAYS hits rear armor. Most rear armor is AV10 or 11.

Typically, Autarchs are used in the above mentioned formation, usually in a squad of Shining Spears, or they're the jump pack variety, usually with the grenades.

However, you are correct. Autarchs really do kinda suck for their points cost.

The main reason I went with a plasma gun is because all I had to run him with was normal jetbikes. He did work some on his own unsupported, but most of the time he was running with them for security.

That's just bad luck, but brightlances on a wave serpent is quite a bit expensive. You might have more luck getting a guardian squad with a weapon platform. You might even wanna try a Wraithlord with EML and brightlance. As an MC, it can fire both on the same turn, and if you stick it in cover, coupled with its high toughness, and it'll be quite impressive.

Yeah, it was the same bad luck I had with the plasma gun on the autarch as well. (of course my bad luck only went so far as the killing of tanks, everything else fell easily) As for the point cost, considering that the Wraithlord is the only way to get any heavy weapons at BS4, and that the wave serpent is BS3 but twin linked for only 5 more points (for the weapon) then the wraithlord, the wave serpent should really be more point effective use of the weapon. The other reason is that the wave serpent had another use, carrying my (sadly shortlived) dire avengers, which just need to get into place and not get into the middle of things so I could effectively use the brightlance every turn and still be an effective transport. So I was fielding the wave serpent reguardless, it was just a choice in weapon.
Besides, I don't own a wraithlord (and based on how I want to run my eldar I probably won't for quite a while)

I had 2 units of guardians, but I decided to use them more agressively this game by giving them shuriken cannons and sending them in. They did pretty good like that. I found in my other games with guardians at BS3 and the weapons costing the same as on all other places I can get them, they just weren't effective enough. Needing 80 points worth of guardians before I add in the weapon, then keeping the weapon out of range so that 80 points doesn't do anything else for a single BS3 shot just never seemed to be cost effective in my previous games. Considering that I can take the same weapon for the same cost (for the weapon) at the same BS3, it seems much more practical to put them on a 45point vyper with greater manuverability or a 30 point war walker which can take 2. Given that they are vehicles and can loose their shots much more easily it does come with risk. Which is why I went with the wave serpent, since it was being fielded reguardless and it was Twin Linked, has good survivability, has a lot more versatility, and really isn't that much more then a guardian squad. (135 for the serpent vs 110 for the guardians, base with brightlance)

Yeah, the basilisk is one of the best tanks in the game. However, it has a glass jaw. If you can infiltrate scorpions, you can easily smack it with the claw until it's dead, since the player will, more than likely, stick it in as far out of LoS as possible.
Yeah, I had an outflanking scatter laser war walker with the target of killing the basilisk, it just happened that I forgot to try to bring him in until the 4th turn (at which point I stuck him in the middle of the table to make sure I wouldn't forget). Almost fittingly, by that time I had my other scatter lasered wave serpent in range and it killed it so my walker went after some heavy weapon platforms.

You even failed your fleet roll? Also, banshees are kind of a waste of IG. They just don't have anything that needs that many power attacks. Unless they bright allies.
No, the fleet roll got me to the point where all I needed was a single 3 on 3d6 to get the assault. I brought the Banshees because I'm going to be fielding my army as an all-comers list all the time and not going to tailor it to each opponent. Considering that Banshees and Scorpions are the same price, and in this case both will wipe out guard without any issue, I don't see it as being much of an issue. They both fill the same roll for the same cost and are more then effective enough for the task at hand makes it a moot point as far as I'm concerned.
Not to mention that I really didn't have any alternative to field in my list, the only models I had left were a few warlocks I could have attached, and I don't think they would have been as effective.

Yeah, daemonhosts are annoying, but like every Daemonhunter, it's way, way expensive. He did have the required HQ Inquisitor, right?
Yeah, the inquisitor didn't do much though, he lasted just long enough to get the hosts summoned and then was wiped out by my scorpions.

Yeah, the best way to deal with the Russes are to hit side/rear armor, or assault it. Warp Spiders or Hawks with haywire grenades come to mind.
Well obviously I was going after the rear and sides whenever possible, it just took a while for me to get into place because my opponent knew that as well. Also all of my close combat troops were busy on another corner of the board laying waste to 5-6 units of guards and heavy weapons that were entrenched in a building.
Being a spear-head deployment also ment I had a lot more ground to cover to get into place and he had the lemen russes on the side without a flank.

Winterwind

2009-01-11, 10:24 AM

Okay, how do I make the table so I can show you guys my army list? I'd like your guy's advice on it.Possibility 1: Just quote somebody else who had the table in his post, remove the quote tags and everything else not belonging to the table, and replace the contents with your own.

Possibility 2: The command for making a table is {table][/table], each line corresponds to a row in the table, you seperate columns with | .

EDIT:
Possibility 3: Here, just use this :smallsmile::
{table]Type|Composition|Equipment|Point Cost
HQ|||
Fast Attack|||
Troops|||
||
Total:|[/table]

Dr. Bath

2009-01-11, 10:29 AM

Anyone who plays a vassal match has to do a battle report, with screencaps and everything! It's the rules!

p.s. It's not really the rules. But it'd be pretty cool.

Eldan

2009-01-11, 11:12 AM

Zorg

2009-01-11, 11:15 AM

Hammerhead Railguns are just too good to pass up. Between the huge submunitions shot and then the max strength single shell, it usually isn't. The ion cannon isn't bad, per say, it's just that the railgun is that good.

On the other hand, I don't see much use for your broadside suits. Their twin-linked railguns are only the single shot variety--they don't get submunitions.

From the look of your list, it looks like you're a turtler. That's a pretty dangerous strategy in the new edition. The last thing you want is a scout/infiltrate squad popping out right next to your firewarrior squads, assaulting, gutting them, then staying in cover. Likewise, you don't want a visit paid to you by the new marines who happily can drop down in pods and assault the same turn they come in.

The Ion cannon is AP3 in fact, so is in some ways better than the Railgun against Marines. My Tau playing friend put it to me that a railhead costs so muc, gets one shot that isn't twin linked, and an be fairly easily blown up (and the submunition is fairly weeny against marines). Broadsides are twinlinked, can get plasma rifles and whatnot to defend themselves up close, and in some ways have better armour than a Hammerhead. So it depends who you're facing really - orks and nids, go railhead, Necrons, Marines and Chaos, go broadsides.

And the only marines who can assault on the turn they arrive are Vanguard veterens using Heroic Intervention. Drop pods cannot be assaulted out of, as even though they are open topped they are still a deep striking unit, so the disembarking troops cannot move or assault, only run or shoot.

Tren

2009-01-11, 12:04 PM

hamishspence

2009-01-11, 12:11 PM

in White Dwarf, Cypher, despite losing his Phase Knife, got special rule allowing him to use plasma pistol in CC as if it was a power sword. And retained his ability to fire two guns instead of one.

So Cypher (and only cypher) can get some real oomph out of a CC pistol.

Lorn

2009-01-11, 01:30 PM

I'm pretty sure Lorn is writing a report on our game yesterday, he was making screenshots.
Short version: death to those who dare oppose the eldar.:smallbiggrin:
We had some extremely lucky and some extremely poor rolls on both sides.
Yes, and here's the report. Spoilered due to size.

500 points Capture and Control mission with Pitched Battle setup. Objectives shown with the Chaos Missile Silo terrain pieces.

Armies:

Lorn
Imperial Guard
http://i443.photobucket.com/albums/qq156/Anatheus/a120e038.jpg

Eldan
Eldar
http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/9540/reianar500ny8.jpg

Deployment:
http://i443.photobucket.com/albums/qq156/Anatheus/WH40K/WH40K_LornEldan_01.jpg

Report:

Turn One
The Imperial Guard got first turn, but couldn’t shoot much. The Chimera cruised forwards 6” and killed one Pathfinder with its heavy bolters.
The Eldar turn was very similar; everything moved forwards, and the green Jetbikes claimed the lives of one brave Guardsmen in the Platoon Command Squad, then dodged back into cover. Meanwhile, the brown Jetbikes managed to get a Crew Stunned result on the Chimera.

http://i443.photobucket.com/albums/qq156/Anatheus/WH40K/WH40K_LornEldan_02.jpg

Turn Two
With the Eldar out of sight, the Guard didn’t really manage to kill anything this turn. However, the Platoon Command squad, incensed at the loss of one of their men, opened fire anyway at the Green jetbikes, and managed to kill one.
The Eldar, meanwhile, did much the same as last turn; move forwards at full speed. The Harlequins managed to make it into some semblance of cover behind a large building, and the green Jetbikes managed to buzz past the Platoon Commander; in the process, killing one man. The real success came from the brown Jetbikes, who immobilised the Chimera…

http://i443.photobucket.com/albums/qq156/Anatheus/WH40K/WH40K_LornEldan_03.jpg

Turn Three
The Guard opened fire at the Eldar wherever possible. The black and brown squads destroyed one more green Jetbike with their heavy bolters, while the squads near the Senior Officer managed to kill one Harlequin at a range.
The Eldar, meanwhile, moved into assault. The Harlequins ran in and proceeded to turn five Guardsmen into a fine mushy paste, losing one man in return. The Guard managed to hold the line, somehow. Meanwhile, the brown Jetbikes moved into assault with the blue Guard Infantry squad, killing two members – but again, the valiant men of the Imperium held fast against the skintight-armour wearing space elves.

http://i443.photobucket.com/albums/qq156/Anatheus/WH40K/WH40K_LornEldan_04.jpg

Turn Four
The Armoured Fist squad inside the Chimera disembarked, ready to run for the objective – the original plan having been made a mockery of. However, they lost one member to the Rangers shooting, while the black and brown squads moved back to cover the objective – losing two men to the remaining Eldar jetbike which had jumped over a building, parking itself squarely on the objective. The Harlequins and Autarch, meanwhile, proceeded to turn the rest of the Guard around that general area – aside from the blue squad – into more piles of fine goo. The Jetbikes assaulting the blue squad failed to kill any more Guardsmen, but lost one Jetbike in the process.

http://i443.photobucket.com/albums/qq156/Anatheus/WH40K/WH40K_LornEldan_05.jpg

Turn Five
Due to some confusion, we realised there was another turn, which is this turn. However, we forgot about the next… but anyway.
The Rangers proceeded to destroy more Armoured Fist squad, while losing none of their number in return. Meanwhile, the Harlequins moved into assault with the black Infantry squad, killing six of them – one model less, and a draw would have been forced. The Jetbikes proceeded to lose another model and the Autarch joined the Jetbikes, killing three Guardsmen in a manner deemed too horrific to explain in too much detail.

http://i443.photobucket.com/albums/qq156/Anatheus/WH40K/WH40K_LornEldan_06.jpg

When the dust had settled, there was a clear win for the Eldar – though it had been close, if the Harlequins had not killed one of those Guardsmen it would have been a draw.

Highlights and lowlights of the battle include but are not limited to me rolling to hit, getting four sixes with my four remaining lasguns, and totally failing to even wound anything.

In retrospect, I should probably have deployed right at the back with everything but the Chimera. I'd have got a totally unobscured turn of shooting at the Harlequins, and maybe they wouldn't have totally ripped my main line apart...

Zenos

2009-01-11, 01:37 PM

Nice pictures. Too bad the good Guard lost. Also, LOL at the hits which failed to wound.

Psychotic

2009-01-11, 01:41 PM

As for the point cost, considering that the Wraithlord is the only way to get any heavy weapons at BS4, and that the wave serpent is BS3 but twin linked for only 5 more points (for the weapon) then the wraithlord, the wave serpent should really be more point effective use of the weapon. The other reason is that the wave serpent had another use, carrying my (sadly shortlived) dire avengers, which just need to get into place and not get into the middle of things so I could effectively use the brightlance every turn and still be an effective transport. So I was fielding the wave serpent reguardless, it was just a choice in weapon.

I had 2 units of guardians, but I decided to use them more agressively this game by giving them shuriken cannons and sending them in. They did pretty good like that. I found in my other games with guardians at BS3 and the weapons costing the same as on all other places I can get them, they just weren't effective enough. Needing 80 points worth of guardians before I add in the weapon, then keeping the weapon out of range so that 80 points doesn't do anything else for a single BS3 shot just never seemed to be cost effective in my previous games. Considering that I can take the same weapon for the same cost (for the weapon) at the same BS3, it seems much more practical to put them on a 45point vyper with greater manuverability or a 30 point war walker which can take 2. Given that they are vehicles and can loose their shots much more easily it does come with risk. Which is why I went with the wave serpent, since it was being fielded reguardless and it was Twin Linked, has good survivability, has a lot more versatility, and really isn't that much more then a guardian squad. (135 for the serpent vs 110 for the guardians, base with brightlance)

I find that the Wraithlord tends to be superior to the Wave Serpent due three reasons.
1) A wraithlord with an Eldar Missile Launcher and Brightlance can lay down a reasonable amount of anti-armor fire. The higher BS means that you're going to hit with at least one weapon, but the odds are decent that you'll hit with both.
2) Wave Serpents probably want to drop off their cargo of killer dudes as their first priority, moving flat-out in order to get a cover save. Doing this means that you can't shoot, however, so the Bright Lances become a point sink for those first 2 turns.
3) I find that monstrous creatures survive longer than medium armor vehicles like Wave Serpents. Three wounds and T8 means that you can take a reasonable amount of punishment. Set the Wraithlord in a fashion so he can claim a cover save and then you'll damn hard to kill.

Guardians can move and shoot their heavy weapons due to the fact that the gun is on a hover platform. The gun becomes an assault weapon for all intents and purposes.

Baxter190

2009-01-11, 01:41 PM

Thanks. Anyways, I'm making a Blood Angel army, about 1500 points and would like your guy's advice. I'm using thishttp://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1180159_Blood_Angels_Codex_and_FAQ_2007-08_5th_Edition.pdf fo my codex for points and stats, so if the points seem off, check here.

{table]Type|Unit Name|Composition|Equipment|Point Cost
HQ|Dante|Dante|Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, Perdition Pistol, The Axe Motalis,Death Mask of Sanguinius, Jump Pack, Artificer Armour, Iron Halo|200
HQ|Chaplain|Chaplain|Frag, Krak Grenades,Rosarius,Crozius Arcanum,Power Armor|120
HQ|Honour Guard|Space Marine Veteran x5|Frag, Krak Grenade, Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Power Armor, Jump Pack, x2 Plasma Pistol|180
Elite|Death Company|Death Company x5|Frag, Krak Grenades, Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Powerarmor, Jump Pack|25
Elite|Scout Squad|Veteran Sergeant x1 Scouts x4|Scout Armour, Bolt Pistol, Frag, Krak Grenades, x2 Shotgun, x1Chainsword, x1 Bolter, x1 Heavy Bolter|95
Heavy|Devastator Squad|Veteran Seargeant x1, Space Marine x9|Power Armour, Bolt Pistol, Frag, Krak Grenades, Bolters x5, Heavy Bolters x2, Las Cannon x2, Chainsword|290
Troops|Tactical Squad|Veteran Sergeant x1, Space Marine x9|Frag, Krak Grenades, Bolt pistol, Bolter x8, Chainsword x1, Flamer x1, Missle Launcher x1|195
Troops|Tactical Squad|Veteran Sergeant x1, Space Marine x9|Frag, Krak Grenades, Bolt pistol, Bolter x8, Chainsword x1, Meltagun x1, Missle Launcherx1|200
Troops|Assault Squad|Veteran Sergeant x1, Space Marine x9|Power Armour, Jump Pack, Bolt Pistol, Frag, Krak Grenades, Chainswords, Plasma Pistol x1, Power Sword|170
Transport|Rhino|Rhino|Storm Bolter, Smoke Launchers, Searchlight|40
|||
Total:|1515 [/table]

Alright, so I'm planing on having the tactical squad with a melta attached to the Rhino. Dante's Honor squad will mainly be used against HQ squads, the death squad and chaplain against enemy troops choices, and the assault and rhino squad for objectives or other requirments. Te devastator and other tactical squad will be for holding objectives and laying down a field of fire. The scout squad will be fore hitting behind enemy lines. This work?

Zorg

2009-01-11, 01:53 PM

I wouldn't discount the submunition so fast though. AP3 on the ion canon is nice, but it's only 3 shots. And given the distance you'll probably be shooting from it's pretty likely any marines will have a cover save. These days with cover saves abound it's as often more effective to just spam armor saves as it is to go for high AP weaponry to turn a 3+ armor save into a 4+ cover. Wounding on 2+ still even against a 3+ armor is gonna make for a number of dead marines, and then you've got the tank-killing shot to boot.

True on the cover saves, but in my experience I've only ever lost one rhino (or vehicle of any kind for that matter) to a hammerhead. And only after it rammed me after missing four shots in a row :smallwink: But the number of vehicles that have succumbed to twin linkedness is much, much higher.

And even the vanguard can't assault out of a drop pod, they must be wearing jetpacks which means they have the chance to mishap or scatter further than someone in a drop pod might, and be out of assault range.

But if the first wave of drop pods have locator beacons fitted the Vanguard won't scatter if they aim within 6" as it affects all deep striking marines, even LotD technically (I use them as teleport assault troops) :smallbiggrin:.

Baxter, the weak spot I see is you have five guys in the Dev squad doing nothing (except sucking down wounds), and a whole tactical squad (with the shortest ranged weapon out there) walking.

Walking is very bad, as even if the objective is only 12" away, that's two whole turns of 12" range on bolters and no heavy weapons. It is highly unlikely the enemy will be polite enough to walk into your guns. Well, maybe 'nids and orks will :smallwink:

I'd drop the extra five devs (they're not troops so can't even hold an objective at base), buy another rhino and give them both extra-armour. Ex-Arm is pretty much essential for transports as ignoring a stunned result can mean the difference between leaping out and rapid firing someone, or sitting like a melon in the middle of the battlefeild for an extra turn.

That should leave you with five points to spare - I would personally drop the scouts and get two attack bikes. More dakka for your dolla, and they can even get multi-meltas for the same points. Can't start behind the enemy, but can keep pace with the jump marines and still lay down some fire. However if you were set on the scouts I'd still drop the heavy bolter and give the sergeant a power sword. Gives them more oomph in HtH, and everyone can still move and fire.

Baxter190

2009-01-11, 03:43 PM

Well, the extra tac squads supposed to help hold objective, while the devastator squad will be split into combat squads, with the the heavy bolters guarding the objective with some wound absorber, while the cannons are for anti tanks with some guards. I'll probably put the cannon squad behind some ruins. I might switch the scouts out as you said though, but I like being able to lay do wnsome fire on the first turn.

Altima

2009-01-11, 06:18 PM

The Ion cannon is AP3 in fact, so is in some ways better than the Railgun against Marines. My Tau playing friend put it to me that a railhead costs so muc, gets one shot that isn't twin linked, and an be fairly easily blown up (and the submunition is fairly weeny against marines). Broadsides are twinlinked, can get plasma rifles and whatnot to defend themselves up close, and in some ways have better armour than a Hammerhead. So it depends who you're facing really - orks and nids, go railhead, Necrons, Marines and Chaos, go broadsides.

Well, of course, if your primary enemy is marines (or MEQs), you can tailor your list for it. The submunition is good for hordes (especially since it always hits now). As for marines, and other MEQs, generally, you really don't have to worry about those. The superiority of the firewarrior's weapons, especially with longer ranged, will allow you to trade blows quite effectively with marines. After all, their normal armor save is better than any cover save, anyway. Make them take enough saves, and they'll die.

In the latest edition, the game is won on the backs of your infantry. If all you're using firewarriors for is because they're required, well...*shrugs*

One of the problems I have with broadsides is that they die to instant death rather easily. Every marine tac squad you'll see nowadays will have a S8 weapon. Then there are lascannons, earthshaker shots, etc, etc. It's rare, but the first time you see your broadside squad squished by a single barbed strangler shot, and you'll be irritated.

However, if they work better for you, they work better for you. Use 'em. No sense compromising your tactical mix because something is 'better'.

The main reason I went with a plasma gun is because all I had to run him with was normal jetbikes. He did work some on his own unsupported, but most of the time he was running with them for security.

If that's the case, you may want to consider a Farseer on a jetbike instead. Security is all well and good, but nuking a leman russ is really fun, but if you're not going to use your Autarch, might as well go for something else. Heck, the Eldritch Storm can spin the Russ around and expose its vulnerable sides or, Khaine willing, its rear armor.

Yeah, it was the same bad luck I had with the plasma gun on the autarch as well. (of course my bad luck only went so far as the killing of tanks, everything else fell easily) As for the point cost, considering that the Wraithlord is the only way to get any heavy weapons at BS4, and that the wave serpent is BS3 but twin linked for only 5 more points (for the weapon) then the wraithlord, the wave serpent should really be more point effective use of the weapon. The other reason is that the wave serpent had another use, carrying my (sadly shortlived) dire avengers, which just need to get into place and not get into the middle of things so I could effectively use the brightlance every turn and still be an effective transport. So I was fielding the wave serpent reguardless, it was just a choice in weapon.
Besides, I don't own a wraithlord (and based on how I want to run my eldar I probably won't for quite a while)
Well, I find wave serpents better suited with shurikan weaponry ('paults and/or cannons). Against guard, it might be better to make your dire avengers more combaty. Of course, most guard can't survive a bladestorm without breaking anyway, so.

If you don't want the wraithlord, well, mayhaps a dark reaper squadron? The exarch with an EML and the correct powers can pop out two or three plates on vehicles a turn.

Or, if you really wanted, grab a falcon, shove five fire dragons in there, and shoved them down the most expensive vehicle on the table (not the monolith, though).

I had 2 units of guardians, but I decided to use them more agressively this game by giving them shuriken cannons and sending them in. They did pretty good like that. I found in my other games with guardians at BS3 and the weapons costing the same as on all other places I can get them, they just weren't effective enough. Needing 80 points worth of guardians before I add in the weapon, then keeping the weapon out of range so that 80 points doesn't do anything else for a single BS3 shot just never seemed to be cost effective in my previous games. Considering that I can take the same weapon for the same cost (for the weapon) at the same BS3, it seems much more practical to put them on a 45point vyper with greater manuverability or a 30 point war walker which can take 2. Given that they are vehicles and can loose their shots much more easily it does come with risk. Which is why I went with the wave serpent, since it was being fielded reguardless and it was Twin Linked, has good survivability, has a lot more versatility, and really isn't that much more then a guardian squad. (135 for the serpent vs 110 for the guardians, base with brightlance)

Generally, guardian squads do best with scatter lasers and EML. They aren't meanted to be that offensive (they can hold their own against, say, guardsmen and firewarriors in CC), but they are just militia. What they do excel at is sitting in the back and living long enough to grab objectives. The warlock is also good for your Wraithlord, if you take it.

Yeah, I had an outflanking scatter laser war walker with the target of killing the basilisk, it just happened that I forgot to try to bring him in until the 4th turn (at which point I stuck him in the middle of the table to make sure I wouldn't forget). Almost fittingly, by that time I had my other scatter lasered wave serpent in range and it killed it so my walker went after some heavy weapon platforms.

Yeah, this happens to all of us. Yeah, about my third game as Chaos Daemons was rather...humiliating because of a similar situation.

Well obviously I was going after the rear and sides whenever possible, it just took a while for me to get into place because my opponent knew that as well. Also all of my close combat troops were busy on another corner of the board laying waste to 5-6 units of guards and heavy weapons that were entrenched in a building.
Being a spear-head deployment also ment I had a lot more ground to cover to get into place and he had the lemen russes on the side without a flank.

Bleh, I friggin' hate split deployment guard. And that tactic in generally. Luckily, with Tyranids, you get to teach the players the error of their ways with scuttling genestealers.

Also, kudos to you for not descending into the Falcon+Harlies mentality that so many Eldar players are.

Snip.

Why aren't you using Lemartes for your Chaplain? For five points more, you get an extra wound and an extra leadership for your DC.

First Speaker

2009-01-11, 06:57 PM

Rayzin

2009-01-11, 07:27 PM

In my short time of playing daemons i found that flamers are pretty much useless unless they're in the correct spot. If you take 20 of them make sure you have enough plaguebearers with banners to DS them in successfully. Deep striking in 3 inches in front of the Marines with 5 overlapping breaths of chaos is a lot of damage, while if they are just 1 or 2 inches to far they get cut up in the round right after.

Tren

2009-01-11, 08:29 PM

The submunition is good for hordes (especially since it always hits now).

Definitely agree that it's great for hordes, but I'm curious what you mean by "always hits now"? It still scatters like everything else does unless you roll a bulls eye.

If that's the case, you may want to consider a Farseer on a jetbike instead. Security is all well and good, but nuking a leman russ is really fun, but if you're not going to use your Autarch, might as well go for something else. Heck, the Eldritch Storm can spin the Russ around and expose its vulnerable sides or, Khaine willing, its rear armor.

Eldritch storm is a spiffy power, but I don't find it's reliable enough at tank busting at 3 + 2d6. Could it pen a landraider? Yes, but it could also fail to do anything to a rhino. I'd save the points and if you want ranged AT on the farseer just go with the singing spear. Personally though I'd rather opt for just a regular witchblade and get into assault against a tank. 3 S9 attacks against back armor? Yes please! My witchblade toting farseer has even garnered quite the reputation as a dreadnought killer.

The exarch with an EML and the correct powers can pop out two or three plates on vehicles a turn.

At best with fast shot you can shoot 2 missiles with an EML, but you'd want krak as the plasma missles that use the blast marker are only S4. Either way, using the reaper exarch for anti-armor makes for a severe waste of points. At S5 the rest of the squad is going to be lackluster at best against any kind of armor, and their expensive AP3 is going to waste. The reapers are a decidedly anti-infantry squad, and if you equip the exarch with the tempest launcher and crack shot he'll be taking out entire squads of space marines in cover without a save on his own.

Generally, guardian squads do best with scatter lasers and EML. They aren't meanted to be that offensive (they can hold their own against, say, guardsmen and firewarriors in CC), but they are just militia. What they do excel at is sitting in the back and living long enough to grab objectives. The warlock is also good for your Wraithlord, if you take it.

Definitely agree there, guardians are just meant to be inexpensive bodies to put on an objective, and an EML or scatter laser is the best way to give them some punch while remaining cheap and compensating for their crappy BS.

Also, kudos to you for not descending into the Falcon+Harlies mentality that so many Eldar players are.

Falcons and harlies both took a severe swing to the face from the nerf bat this edition, the flying circus is defunct these days.

Oracle_Hunter

2009-01-11, 09:07 PM

Definitely agree that it's great for hordes, but I'm curious what you mean by "always hits now"? It still scatters like everything else does unless you roll a bulls eye.

It's loads better than having a 50% chance of hitting nobody. IIRC, submunition uses a Large Template anyhow and since it only needs to partially cover a model to hit it, it has a pretty good chance of doing that every shot.

Trust me, this is a vast improvement :smallbiggrin:

Erloas

2009-01-11, 09:48 PM

Long part about the wave serpent and wraithlord:
Well I have normally fielded my wave serpent with scatter lasers (and my other one did) I just decided to put the brightlance on one because I didn't have a lot of other anti-tank (at least in the first rounds before you can charge them or get behind them). Also the wave serpent was going to be flying dire avengers around, they don't generally need or want to get too close so I knew that the wave serpent wasn't going to be moving too fast most of the time.
Of course the wave serpent with the banshees had scatter lasers and it ended up going flat out a turn to get into range. So while I agree that situationally the brightlances could be a poor choice of weapons for the wave serpent, I felt that the role it was taking in my army would allow it to use the brightlances fairly effectively.

Sure the wraithlord is good but he is almost something a list needs to be built around, as opposed to the wave serpent, where in the case of my list it was the difference between paying 20 points more for a brightlance compared to a scatter laser. The TL brightlance on the wave serpent has a better chance of hitting (75%) then on the wraithlord (66%), and of course they are exactly the same in terms of glancing and penetrating. The only reason they weren't effective on my wave serpent was just because I was rolling poorly and having it on a wraithlord wouldn't have changed that.

When you are looking at survivability, the wraithlord isn't really that much more survivable then the wave serpent. Against str5 weapons the wave serpent can't be hurt from the front or the sides, the wraithlord can be wounded on 6s, against str6 both are wounded on 6s, WS can only be glanced. Str 7 is a 5+ to wound for either, str 8 its a 4 for either, and str9-10 is counted as 8 for the wave serpent. Of course the wraithlord has a 3+ save, but most of the high str shots that are likely to wound either of them aren't going to allow for an armor save anyway. He does have 3 wounds, and of course the wave serpent can be killed in a single hit, but most vehicles take (on average) 3-4 pen/glancing shots before they are destroyed too. Sure the wave serpent can be destroyed very quickly in CC if someone can get it to stop but the only way to stop it is to get that first wound and be in range to charge it.

But of course the wraithlord has a lot of abilities that can't be matched, likes its CC ability (virtually guarenteed tank kills in CC) and its flamers. I'm not saying he isn't any good, I'm just saying his use is more situational then the wave serpent. Since many lists are going to include wave serpents anyway, and depending how you expect to use them, the brightlance could be a reasonable choice or a very poor choice. The wraithlord though has to have a decent portion of the list built around him, you need to have a warlock or farseer with him, which means a unit of guardians or jetbikes with the warlock upgrade, or a farseer council, or some other unit to help protect a farseer. (because you don't want a farseer running across the field with your wraithlord when he doesn't have a unit to take some shots for him) You will also likely want some other units around to help support the wraithlord. The other thing about the heavy weapons on the wraithlord is even with a brightlance the wraithlord is still much more dangerous against any opponent in close combat then they are at range and shooting means they can't run (monsterous creatures can run right? I don't see anything in the MC section that excludes it and the running section just says units can run in lieu of shooting and doesn't specify having to be infantry)

As for the autarch on bike compared to a farseer, well the whole point was that I was taking the autarch on a bike to see what he could do. I already know what the farseer was capable of and that doesn't really change much by putting him on a bike.

For the dark reapers, I had 4 of them they just didn't really do much, though they have done great in other games. I don't see any point in taking the EML with them though because the krak is wasted against MEQ, especially compared to their base weapon, and the plasma doesn't negate MEQ saves. And while the krak is decent anti-vehicle, as Tren said, it wasts all the rest of the shots of the unit. The tempest launcher looked nice but so far my uses of it haven't been that great. I've had the best luck so far with the normal reaper launcher and crack shot.

As for the guardian weapon platforms, I said that before. Their BS makes it fairly unreliable with a brightlance or krak EML. The scatter laser isn't a bad choice, but in most cases all of the weapon choices can be taken and used to much the same effect by putting them on vypers or war walkers and for cheaper. I figured if they were going to have an assault heavy weapon they should take advantage of the assault part of it and make use of their suriken catapults which are quite useful against most things. If they aren't close I've got 72 points worth of wounds that do nothing else, which is too much for the few shots they get in a game. I had used them 3 of my previous 4 games with the EML and found them to be mostly ineffective. With the shuriken cannons in this game I found them to be much more effective. They killed more in this game then any other, and while one group was wiped out and the other was down to 2, they just seemed a lot more useful. One thing about guardians taking wounds is that it means they aren't shooting at something else, and they are half the cost of all my aspect warriors (except the dire avengers, and they are still 50% cheaper then them), so those aren't wounds I mind too much. Taking wounds in place of more expensive and dangerous units is half the point of being agressive with them.

evil_d4_swarm

2009-01-11, 09:58 PM

What was the online warhammer 40k engine that was talked about last thread near the end?

Killersquid

2009-01-11, 10:17 PM

Vassal 40k.

evil_d4_swarm

2009-01-11, 10:24 PM

Ok. Thanks.

Does anyone want to play once I get it installed?

Altima

2009-01-12, 12:29 AM

So, in a 1500 point list, how many flamers of Tzeentch would be too many? I'm looking at basing a Daemon army mostly around them, and, while they are incredibly fragile, derp strike + 12" move + wound on 4+, no save flamer template looks horrific, especially in numbers. So, would taking c. 20 be overkill?

It's hard to say without the rest of your army. They're very powerful, true, but you only have three elite slots, and flamers have less and less damaging after each effect. Personally, I wouldn't take more than 3-5/6 per choice. I tend to only use them in a group of three as a suicide squad--three of them can gut just about anything that isn't a vehicle.

And if you use up all your elites, where will your bloodcrushers and fiends go? Think of the fiends!

Definitely agree that it's great for hordes, but I'm curious what you mean by "always hits now"? It still scatters like everything else does unless you roll a bulls eye.

In the previous Edition (which was when the Tau codex was released), non-ordanance template weapons (barbed stranglers, submunitions, etc) required a BS roll to 'hit' the squad. Now, template weapons always hit, but scatter. In general, this has increased its power quite a bit, as well as the no more half-covering rules.

Eldritch storm is a spiffy power, but I don't find it's reliable enough at tank busting at 3 + 2d6. Could it pen a landraider? Yes, but it could also fail to do anything to a rhino. I'd save the points and if you want ranged AT on the farseer just go with the singing spear. Personally though I'd rather opt for just a regular witchblade and get into assault against a tank. 3 S9 attacks against back armor? Yes please! My witchblade toting farseer has even garnered quite the reputation as a dreadnought killer.

Oh, I agree. I usually have a warlock in a three-man guardian jetbike squad with a spear to do my vehicle hunting. I was merely throwing out suggestions (namely, to spin the vehicle so that a weaker side was facing the firepower).

At best with fast shot you can shoot 2 missiles with an EML, but you'd want krak as the plasma missles that use the blast marker are only S4. Either way, using the reaper exarch for anti-armor makes for a severe waste of points. At S5 the rest of the squad is going to be lackluster at best against any kind of armor, and their expensive AP3 is going to waste. The reapers are a decidedly anti-infantry squad, and if you equip the exarch with the tempest launcher and crack shot he'll be taking out entire squads of space marines in cover without a save on his own.

I was thinking of the tempest launcher, not the EML. But yeah, they're purposely anti-heavy infantry. Throwing out suggestions, mostly.

Definitely agree there, guardians are just meant to be inexpensive bodies to put on an objective, and an EML or scatter laser is the best way to give them some punch while remaining cheap and compensating for their crappy BS.
There are, of course, storm guardians, who might be okay against IG with a flamer and warlock with destructor. Barbeque. But yeah, I must prefer dire avengers, personally.

Falcons and harlies both took a severe swing to the face from the nerf bat this edition, the flying circus is defunct these days.
Just about everything that doesn't have "Marine" in its name took a hit. It may not be the greatest, but they're still rather potent vehicles. Of course, if GW would stop hanging out special rules like candy, many of the nerfs wouldn't be necessary.

Long part about the wave serpent and wraithlord:
-SNIP-

Odds are, if someone's going to shoot something at either the wave serpent or the wraithlord, it won't be some pidly S6 weapon. It'll be something that will hurt it, or have a chance to, anyway (like a lascannon). The wraithlord can survive three of those shots (more, with luck, and a little cover). The transport could die with the first shot (or never). In my experience, if a person sees a glass cannon with a lance on it, they gun it, especially if you lack other vehicle targets.

Snip 2: The Revenge of Snip
Well, the general consensus is that the Autarch can do just about...nothing that an exarch can't do just as well or better. Except in a jetbike or shining spear squad. Which is a shame, because it's such a great unit.

Reapers are, generally, only good against MEQs. Taking them against, say, IG, would probably be a waste.

And, lastly, people are spoiled on BS4 units. :P Try being a tyranid where, in all cases, you have to pay for an upgrade to normal BS on anything larger than a gaunt.

Oracle_Hunter

2009-01-12, 12:44 AM

Well, the general consensus is that the Autarch can do just about...nothing that an exarch can't do just as well or better. Except in a jetbike or shining spear squad. Which is a shame, because it's such a great unit.

Actually, an Autarch with Wings can really buff out a Swooping Hawk squad.

Give him a mandiblaster and a power weapon, and now he and the Exarch make up an honest-to-god jump assault squad. Very nice for eating up shooty units hanging out in the back field.

Or give him a Fusion gun and you have one of the best tank-hunting squad out there. Shoot 'em in the back for 8+2d6; if there's anything left, assault with Haywire Grenades.

I've not tried either of these out yet, but I'll be damned if they don't look sweet :smallbiggrin:

PS - You can probably do the same with Warp Spiders, but I think it's cheaper and more efficient to use Hawks.

Altima

2009-01-12, 12:52 AM

Actually, an Autarch with Wings can really buff out a Swooping Hawk squad.

Give him a mandiblaster and a power weapon, and now he and the Exarch make up an honest-to-god jump assault squad. Very nice for eating up shooty units hanging out in the back field.

Or give him a Fusion gun and you have one of the best tank-hunting squad out there. Shoot 'em in the back for 8+2d6; if there's anything left, assault with Haywire Grenades.

I've not tried either of these out yet, but I'll be damned if they don't look sweet :smallbiggrin:

PS - You can probably do the same with Warp Spiders, but I think it's cheaper and more efficient to use Hawks.

Yeah, but a swooping hawk squadron should always be doing the grenade ability every turn. Besides, the power weapon won't be that effective, and if you're worried about shooty units in the back, that's what a striking scorpion squad with a fist is for. Good ole outflank.

Swooping Hawks aren't that great, but dang it, they are some purdy models.

I kinda like the autarch in a warpspider squad, thoug. Mmm, warpsiders...so good at shredding stuff.

Oracle_Hunter

2009-01-12, 01:09 AM

Yeah, but a swooping hawk squadron should always be doing the grenade ability every turn. Besides, the power weapon won't be that effective, and if you're worried about shooty units in the back, that's what a striking scorpion squad with a fist is for. Good ole outflank.

Swooping Hawks aren't that great, but dang it, they are some purdy models.

I kinda like the autarch in a warpspider squad, thoug. Mmm, warpsiders...so good at shredding stuff.

See, the thing is Haywire Grenades can be pretty unreliable. First, you have to hit the vehicle - problematic if it has been moving fast and/or is a skimmer. Secondly, you're only likely to do Glancing hits, which, even with a large SH squad, may not do more than cosmetic damage.

A Fusion Gun in the rear, fired by a BS6 guy? That's going to get one solid penetrating shot for sure.

As for the CC deal - yes, Scorps are good, but they have to get to the rear. This means crossing a whole darn field of fire to get there. Hawks? They just deepstrike in some isolated part of the table edge and hop-assault into their target. Fast & Clean, they are.

Altima

2009-01-12, 05:56 AM

See, the thing is Haywire Grenades can be pretty unreliable. First, you have to hit the vehicle - problematic if it has been moving fast and/or is a skimmer. Secondly, you're only likely to do Glancing hits, which, even with a large SH squad, may not do more than cosmetic damage.

A Fusion Gun in the rear, fired by a BS6 guy? That's going to get one solid penetrating shot for sure.

As for the CC deal - yes, Scorps are good, but they have to get to the rear. This means crossing a whole darn field of fire to get there. Hawks? They just deepstrike in some isolated part of the table edge and hop-assault into their target. Fast & Clean, they are.

I meant the grenade packs dropped by their ascension (or whatever it's called) that they drop large pie plates with. The problem with your plan is that there's a very good chance that the hawks will deepstrike somewhere you don't want (even possible that they'll scatter off the board!). They are not very resilient, and rapid fire will easily see them wacked. Worse, possibly, is that they get assaulted by gun liners' counter-chargers, or even their bait units.

And with the new outflanking rules, scorps pretty much enter play in the rear of the enemy.

Wraith

2009-01-12, 07:43 AM

PS - You can probably do the same with Warp Spiders, but I think it's cheaper and more efficient to use Hawks.

I seem to have done it the hard way - My Mandiblaster/Power Weapon/Fusion Gun equipped Autarch always Deep Strikes with my Warp Spiders, and so far has had fairly mixed results.

On the one hand he can freely pick and choose a rear-shot at a vehicle once per turn, and then uses his Jump Pack to move away from the enemy and (hopefully) back into cover in the Assault Phase. The fact that he adds a whole lot of 'awesome' in Close Combat to an otherwise shooty-squad is very nice as well, made even better with the WS Exarch's Hit And Run option.

On the downside, if he's attached to Warp Spiders he's basically an anti-vehicle unit trapped in an Anti-Infantry Squad, meaning that unless he detaches from the Squad (and therefore loses his safety net of comparatively expendable bodies), one or the other is shooting needless at something; AP0 Death Spinners against a Tank, or a s8 Fusion Gun at Imperial Guardsmen.
To top it all off, Murphy's Law invariably comes into play and the lone Autarch is swallowed into the Warp when I roll a double for his Jump Pack/retreat ability.

I'm considering swapping him out for another Farseer, to compensate when my original one invariably blows his own head off with a Perils of the Warp test, or maybe something else entirely. Karandras looks like a good investment, what with his Power Claw effectively doing the same task against vehicles while making my Scorpians a lot nastier to boot, and I don't particularly want to make my Dark Reapers any more of a target by giving them Maugan Ra.
Those guys are awesome at what they do, but I seem to have terrible luck when it comes to rolling their saves and I can't justify making them 200pts more expensive until I figure out how to stop making them an easy blooding for my opponent.....

Illiterate Scribe

2009-01-12, 08:46 AM

Erloas

2009-01-12, 12:08 PM

Odds are, if someone's going to shoot something at either the wave serpent or the wraithlord, it won't be some pidly S6 weapon. It'll be something that will hurt it, or have a chance to, anyway (like a lascannon). The wraithlord can survive three of those shots (more, with luck, and a little cover). The transport could die with the first shot (or never). In my experience, if a person sees a glass cannon with a lance on it, they gun it, especially if you lack other vehicle targets.
Well actually most of my tank hunting so far is with s6 weapons, and right now its working pretty well because I have the speed and manuverability to do it. But its a given that for most armies it will be str8-10 hits going for them. Which was my point, because in all cases against the wave serpent (since they are coming from at least mostly stationary targets the chance of getting shot in the back is minimal) str8-10 needs a 4 to glance and a 5/6 to pen, where as with the wraithlord thats a 4/3/2 to wound, and I'm not sure of a single str8-10 weapon that wouldn't negate his save. In terms of cover, being a vehicle or monsterous creature, they are both just as likely to have or not have cover.

As for the target selection, yeh, it might be more of an issue if I was only running 1-2 vehicles, but so far when I took it I had 1 other wave serpent, 2 war walkers and 2 vypers. And I can't see a whole lot of lists I might make where I don't take at least 1 war walker and vyper, since they are useful and relatively cheap.

As for the storm guardians compared to the normal guardians, I'm thinking about running some of them, I just don't have any yet. Although I'm not sure the guardians are gaining much, even being up close.
With the HWG you get 18 shots at BS3 str4 AP5 and 3 more at Str6 AP5 (assuming the up close and personal use with shuriken cannon I'm trying), and 20 WS3 S3 attacks on the charge. With the storm guardians you get 8 BS3 Str4 AP5 shots, 2 flamers or fusion gun, and then 28 WS3 S3 attacks on the charge. Either way, the shuriken weapons are much more dangerous in shooting then either unit in CC. The fusion gun ends up either being shot at something not worth it, or against a vehicle where all of the shuriken pistols are useless and they can't hit in CC, in which case you aren't gaining a whole lot VS a HWG crew sitting back with a EML (same price) or brightlance (5pts more), you get another shot and melta makes it more dangerous, but the unit is a lot more vulnerable. The flamers are where the variables really come in, they are by far the most dangerous guardians of either sort can be against hordes. The storm guardians are better off (not by a lot, but some) if they get charged.
Since the fusion gun option is better left in the hands of fire dragons, it really comes down to giving them flamers and throwing them in the middle of everything and see what they can do to infantry. With the same save and stats, I'm not sure if one is noticably more effective at that then the other unless there is a decent amount of cover for the flamers to negate (because the cannon would get 1-2 rounds of shooting before closing range). I'll probably give that a try, probably with both HW-Guardisns and Storm Guardians at the same time, when I get around to getting and fielding an Avatar. Not expecting to do that soon, but maybe since I worked 7 hrs of overtime yesterday.

Edit: Fusion not plasma... I knew it was one of those high str melta weapons

Oracle_Hunter

2009-01-12, 01:38 PM

On the downside, if he's attached to Warp Spiders he's basically an anti-vehicle unit trapped in an Anti-Infantry Squad, meaning that unless he detaches from the Squad (and therefore loses his safety net of comparatively expendable bodies), one or the other is shooting needless at something; AP0 Death Spinners against a Tank, or a s8 Fusion Gun at Imperial Guardsmen.

To top it all off, Murphy's Law invariably comes into play and the lone Autarch is swallowed into the Warp when I roll a double for his Jump Pack/retreat ability.

Wait, are Independent Characters that join a unit always counted as a separate unit? If they aren't, why don't you just sacrifice one of the other Warp Spiders when you roll doubles?

Also: Warp Spiders are excellent anti-vehicle troops! S6 against rear armor glances on a 4 and penetrates on a 5+ - not too shabby! Plus, with Assault 2, they're going to get a lot of shots.

I meant the grenade packs dropped by their ascension (or whatever it's called) that they drop large pie plates with. The problem with your plan is that there's a very good chance that the hawks will deepstrike somewhere you don't want (even possible that they'll scatter off the board!). They are not very resilient, and rapid fire will easily see them wacked. Worse, possibly, is that they get assaulted by gun liners' counter-chargers, or even their bait units.

And with the new outflanking rules, scorps pretty much enter play in the rear of the enemy.

:smallconfused: Grenade Packs aren't anti-vehicle at all, and they don't have enough Strength or AP to take down heavy infantry reliably. An Autarch with Mandiblasters & Power Weapon / Chainsword will add a lot of punch there.

The traditional way you use Hawks for anti-vehicle is to have them jump & charge a vehicle and hope that 5 Haywire Grenades are enough to screw up the tank. Unless the 5E vehicle damage chart is much more generous, even 5 glancing hits are rarely enough to put down a non-skimmer for good. Adding in a Fusion Gun against the rear armor (or, really, anywhere) will make that squad much more effective.

As for DS scatter - isn't it only 2d6"? Unless you play on a very small table, you should be able to find a spot where the Hawks can drop without being exposed to lethal fire. The trick is to not put your Hawks next to whatever you want to kill; you put them close, but with safety as your first priority. Then you use their fabulous 12" jump to get wherever you want, fire away, and then assault 6". Sure it takes practice, but believe me, it can be done.

But tell me more about these outflanking rules. They sound most interesting :smallbiggrin:

EDIT:
@Erloas - how the heck do you get all these plasmaguns on Eldar? Was there a Codex update I didn't notice?

Wraith

2009-01-12, 03:43 PM

Wait, are Independent Characters that join a unit always counted as a separate unit? If they aren't, why don't you just sacrifice one of the other Warp Spiders when you roll doubles?

Also: Warp Spiders are excellent anti-vehicle troops! S6 against rear armor glances on a 4 and penetrates on a 5+ - not too shabby! Plus, with Assault 2, they're going to get a lot of shots.

I had better map out my thought processes here, I've suddenly had a sneaking suspicion that I've been doing something very wrong for a very long time... :smalltongue:

The Autarch must start the game as part of the Warp Spider unit in order to be placed in Reserve - The ability comes from the WS Exarch, and without it there is no other way for an Autarch with a Jump Pack to Deep Strike.
If the Autarch is part of the unit he is subject to the rules for coherency, in that he must remain within 2" of one of his Squadmates and must shoot at the same target as the rest of the Squad.
If the 'Warp Spider+Autarch' unit rolls a Double and loses a member, I *AM* allowed to sacrifice a normal Warp Spider if I want to.
If, however, I wish to use the Autarch to attack a separate target I must declare him to have left the unit after he has been placed on the table.
This means he is no longer subject to coherency, but at the cost of being a Single Model should he be targetted by the enemy or fall prey to the Warp when he attempts to withdraw.

So unless I have made a serious mistake with regards to the rules for Independant Characters joining a unit, I must either have the Warp Spiders AND the Autarch shoot at the same tank (which, even though they are AP0, we can probably agree is a massive overkill on 95% of targets) or I must split them into 2 units and run the risk of the Autarch having to travel alone.

Ugh, my poor aching brain - my new Space Marine army won't have to deal with all this aggravation, I can just solve it with more Dreadnoughts! :smallbiggrin:

Oracle_Hunter

2009-01-12, 03:59 PM

So unless I have made a serious mistake with regards to the rules for Independant Characters joining a unit, I must either have the Warp Spiders AND the Autarch shoot at the same tank (which, even though they are AP0, we can probably agree is a massive overkill on 95% of targets) or I must split them into 2 units and run the risk of the Autarch having to travel alone.

No, that sounds about right. But why worry about overkilling a tank? The nice thing about Warp Spiders is that they can pop back behind cover after doing their thing, so it's not like they need to lay down cover fire to keep from getting chopped up by return fire. A little overkill seems like a fair trade off for preventing the loss of your Autarch.

Oh, and always remember Rule 37 (http://store.schlockmercenary.com/PhotoGallery.asp?ProductCode=P-R37): "There is no overkill. There is only open fire and I need to reload." :smallbiggrin:

Tren

2009-01-12, 04:21 PM

The Autarch must start the game as part of the Warp Spider unit in order to be placed in Reserve - The ability comes from the WS Exarch, and without it there is no other way for an Autarch with a Jump Pack to Deep Strike.
:

Everything you mentioned looks right to me, but in 5th edition all jump infantry come with the deepstrike rule by default. So you don't even have to buy the exarch power for the spiders anymore, they can already DS, and you could even have your lone autarch with hawk wings or warp jump generator go all Rambo and deepstrike by his lonesome behind a tank with that fusion gun.

Ghal Marak

2009-01-12, 05:02 PM

EDIT: Dang, two long posts in a row. I'll spoiler my stuff to cut down on length.

Well, I'm back with tales of bravery and adventure. Well... more or less. I played my 1000 'naught list all right, but against a supprise enemy. My own Necrons!

My brother wanted to try them out, so we got down to it. I didn't make any changes to the 'naught's loadout, but it wouldn't have made any differance either way. He knew what I was taking, so he designed his list to counter the 'naughts as best he could. 2 Scarab Swarms with Disruption fields, two squads of 10xWarriors, 2 Necron Lords both with Resurection Orbs attatched to the warriors, 3 Heavy Destroyers, and I think that was about it.

The game was largely uneventfull. He tied up both the Plas'naughts with the scarabs for practicaly the entire game, so the did largely nothing except defend themselves. Around the end of turn 5 Plas'naught 1 was dead from massive glancing, and the Plas'naught 2's Plasma Cannon was destroyed. The second one survived with the help of the Storm Troopers assulting the rear of the scarabs. The Grey Knights killed a lord and a bunch of Necrons before going down due to poor rolls and ignored armor saves (dang staff of light). My Brother-Captain single-handedly faced down the other Warrior squad + Lord and killed the lord and five others before going down due to an unlucky roll (because I can't nail a 4+ save consistantly to save my life :smallsigh:). The Las'naught did practicaly nothing the entire game, killing maybe three warriors. I just made a lot of poor rolls with 'em.

I won by Phase Out, but I only had a crippled 'naught and a curiously untouched squad of Storm Troopers. Still, it was a fun game, so it didn't matter who won.

And then there was the 'other' game. It was 1500 points against Tyranid. I knew I would be outnumbered by an ungodly ammount, so I said to hell with it and just took my 'naught list and tacked on a full squad of Grey Knights Terminators (9 + Brother-Captain). My god do those things eat up points! Around 460 points, give or take 25.

It was funny, there was my side of the board, with ten Grey Knights, ten Storm Troopers, and three Dreadnaughts (I was deep striking the terminators). Then there was his side, at least two full squads of gaunts (I can't remember which), three Carnifex, two Genestealer Broods, two Genestealer Broodlords (one being his Main HQ choise), three Lictors, 3 psyker things who's name escapes me, and some misc. other things.

What basicaly happened was the Knights and Storm Troopers got nom nom nom'ed along side the Las'naught, while the two Plas'naughts and the Terminators kicked ass. The Terminators more than paid for themselves in the sheer amount of Tyranid killed. Totaly awesome. The Las'naught, however, was the worst model in the game. I only ever rolled ones on the 'to-hit' rolls, and if not that it was on the 'to-wound' rolls! :smallmad: I was glad when it died. I belive it was because I was using a Eldar Wraithlord to proxy the 'naught. Eldar models curse their player when used as proxies, or at the very least they curse me. It didn't suck as much against the Necrons because I was using a Warwalker to proxy it then.

So yeah, eventualy the Terminators just get dragged down once my opponent started sending everything he had at them, and two Carnifex ganged up on the 'naughts to take them down. So I may have lost, but I had lots of fun doing so. :smallbiggrin:

Oh, and a quick question. Dreadnaught Close Combat weapons, do they act exactly as a power fist? As in, reduces his attacks to Initiative 1? Because that is what everybody at the shop says. I doubt it though, cause it does not say so in the rulebook, at least anywhere I could find.[/spoiler]

Altima

2009-01-12, 05:18 PM

I'm considering swapping him out for another Farseer, to compensate when my original one invariably blows his own head off with a Perils of the Warp test, or maybe something else entirely. Karandras looks like a good investment, what with his Power Claw effectively doing the same task against vehicles while making my Scorpians a lot nastier to boot, and I don't particularly want to make my Dark Reapers any more of a target by giving them Maugan Ra.
...

Farseers (Doom, Fortune, and Guide!) are great, and I see Eldrad in many, many lists, too. Karandras is one of the best Phoenix Lords (and he can fleet, too, unlike other scorpions). His one problem is lack of an invul save, so adding him to a group of scorpions can help increase his killies. Hopefully, though, any unit he and the scorpions would engage would be back-line shooty squads (like the inevitable tac combat squads sitting lone in the back with the ML). The Avatar is a good choice, too. I sometimes, if I play more defensively against extremely aggressive armies, use him as a countercharge unit (quite effective against Tyranids who need to get close to use their most effective weapons).

Ah, good, a fellow Daemons player.

So what lists have you found to be good? I'm just playing around with ideas before I commit to getting certain units.

Well, you didn't ask me, but I'll give some advice. Honestly, there's really not any 'bad' choice when using the army. Very good units include: Heralds on chariots, bloodletters against MEQs, daemonettes against hordes, bloodcrushers, fiends, nurglings, and the Soul Grinder. It really depends on what theme you're going with: mono-god, dual-god, multi-god, shooty list, CC list, Nurgle Tally-man list (which is fun, fun).

Also: Warp Spiders are excellent anti-vehicle troops! S6 against rear armor glances on a 4 and penetrates on a 5+ - not too shabby! Plus, with Assault 2, they're going to get a lot of shots.
However, because of their AP, they have a penalty on the vehicle damage roll (-2 if I'm not mistaken), which can really hurt blowing anything up.

But tell me more about these outflanking rules. They sound most interesting
Basically, anything with scout/infiltrate, in lieu of the scout move or infiltration, can choose to outflank. There are some rules, but, basically, it allows you to come in along the side table edges. This allows assault squads to get dangerously close without being shot up (and gets them close to weak vehicles and shooty squads). Watch in terror as a broodlord with full retinue pops out right next to your poor, poor units.

-Snip-

This is correct. In fact, an IC joins or leaves a squad in the movement phase. All models in a squad shoot at the same target (unless you're Space Marines, but they're so special they don't have to follow the rules). So yeah, generally, if you're in desperate need of anti-tank, take fire dragons. Leave anti-infantry for purely anti infantry (or, worse case, haywire grenades so you can smack rear armor).

Wraith

2009-01-12, 05:24 PM

No, that sounds about right. But why worry about overkilling a tank? The nice thing about Warp Spiders is that they can pop back behind cover after doing their thing, so it's not like they need to lay down cover fire to keep from getting chopped up by return fire. A little overkill seems like a fair trade off for preventing the loss of your Autarch.

As I may have mentioned in a previous Thread, I have unfortunately broken the meta-game in my local pool of opponents. Sufficed to say, killing 2 Tanks per turn - or killing one tank and a whole mess of Troops with Deathspinners - early in the game has become extremely urgent!
Overkill is GREAT - what I'm trying to do is inflict it on as many different units at the same time as I can!

Everything you mentioned looks right to me, but in 5th edition all jump infantry come with the deepstrike rule by default. So you don't even have to buy the exarch power for the spiders anymore, they can already DS, and you could even have your lone autarch with hawk wings or warp jump generator go all Rambo and deepstrike by his lonesome behind a tank with that fusion gun.

Ah yes, Codex vs. Updated Rulebook. I never thought of that, so thank you Tren :smallsmile:
Even so, it doesn't solve the problem of the Autarch being alone when the dice go wrong - all in all, I'm probably better off with another unit of tooled-up Warp Spiders, and making up the difference with extra bodies.

Thanks for the ideas though!

This is correct. In fact, an IC joins or leaves a squad in the movement phase. All models in a squad shoot at the same target (unless you're Space Marines, but they're so special they don't have to follow the rules). So yeah, generally, if you're in desperate need of anti-tank, take fire dragons. Leave anti-infantry for purely anti infantry (or, worse case, haywire grenades so you can smack rear armor).

Guven that on top of the Autarch and Warp Spiders I'm already fielding 20 Wraithguard and 2 Wraithlord (in a 2000 points army), I'm probably just being greedy when it comes to killing Tanks. :smalltongue:
All in all, I'm probably better off forgetting the Autarch entirely and reinforcing the Scorpions - even alone, those guys have done things that verge on the heroic, and that's even before I'd tried out the Outflank rules.

Rayzin

2009-01-12, 06:20 PM

Ah, good, a fellow Daemons player.

So what lists have you found to be good? I'm just playing around with ideas before I commit to getting certain units.

Depends how many points. My army is usually a Khorne/Nurgle army.

20 bloodletters(2 squads of 10, both carrying an instrument), 10 plaugebearers(2 squads of 5, both carry a chaos icon), a herald (iron hide, Death strike, Juggernaut), 3 bloodcrushers, and a soulgrinder (phelgm and tounge). The main tactic i use is plaugebearers walking up to the enemy and then i bring down the bloodletters. The soulgrinder(depending on when he gets in) usually is put somewhere where it can use its phlegm cannon and harvester to maximum effect or if it appears late game hunts tanks with its tounge. The herald and the bloodcrushers run around and usually mop up shooting squads that the bloodletters cant reach

Illiterate Scribe

2009-01-12, 06:25 PM

Depends how many points. My army is usually a Khorne/Nurgle army.

20 bloodletters(2 squads of 10, both carrying an instrument), 10 plaugebearers(2 squads of 5, both carry a chaos icon), a herald (iron hide, Death strike, Juggernaut), 3 bloodcrushers, and a soulgrinder (phelgm and tounge). The main tactic i use is plaugebearers walking up to the enemy and then i bring down the bloodletters. The soulgrinder(depending on when he gets in) usually is put somewhere where it can use its phlegm cannon and harvester to maximum effect or if it appears late game hunts tanks with its tounge. The herald and the bloodcrushers run around and usually mop up shooting squads that the bloodletters cant reach

Isn't that putting all your anti-vehicle eggs in one basket? Vehicles were what I was mostly worrying about.

Rayzin

2009-01-12, 06:29 PM

When i play my blood crushers can destroy lighter vehicles with there S6 and 4 attacks each, and with S5 the bloodletters could destroy rhinos and the such. Most of the time i didn't have much problems with vehicles.

Illiterate Scribe

2009-01-12, 06:31 PM

I have had in my blood crushers destroy lighter vehicles with there S6 and 4 attacks each, and with S5 the bloodletters could destroy rhinos and the such. Most of the time i didn't have much problems with them.

'k, I'll look into that. Heretofore, I'd been looking at blood crushers as 'super assault terminators', but, now you mention it, they would work against light vehicles ...

evil_d4_swarm

2009-01-12, 06:42 PM

Hello again. Is anyone on vassal 40k right now? I'm looking for a game.

SolkaTruesilver

2009-01-12, 07:18 PM

Hi there, may I know how to post an excel sheet here? I have made my first IG army (1985 points) with Tau support, and I would like to try to post the tables here..

On the other hand, let's just do it by hand. I still would like to have peoples here to tell me how to post a nice table..

Command Platoon (HQ 1)

Command Squad
Junior Officer (40 Points), Honoriras Imperialis (25 Points), Carapace Armour (5 Points)
4 Shock Troopers, Master Vox-Caster (25), 1 Veteran with Company Standard (11)

Support Elements
Sentinel Squad (1 Sentinel) (35 points), Multi-Laser (10 Points)

Fire Support Squads (35 Points), 3x Autocannon (60)

2 Commissars (80 Points)

Infantry Platoon (Troop 1)
Platoon Command Squad
Junior Officer (40), Carapace Armour (5), Trademark Item (10), Power Sword (5)
4 Shock Troopers, 1 Veteran with Medic (11)
Chimaera Transport (70), Heavy Bolter on Turret (10), Hull-mounted Heavy Bolter (5), Heavy Stubber (12), Rough Terrain Mod. (5)

Infantry Squad 1
Lascannon (25), Vox-Caster (5)

Infantry Squad 2
Lascannon (25), Vox-Caster (5)

Infantry Platoon (Troop 2)
Platoon Command Squad
Junior Officer (40), Carapace Armour (5), Trademark Item (10)
4 Shock Troopers, Plasma Gun (10)

Infantry Squad 1
Lascannon (25), Vox-Caster (5), Meltagun (10)

Infantry Squad 2
Meltagun (10), Vox-Caster (5)

Storm Troopers(Elite 1)
10 Stormtroopers (100), Flamer (6), Grenade Launcher (8)
Chimaera Transport (70), Turret Heavy Bolter (10), Heavy Stubber (12), Rough Terrain Mod (5)

Stealth Team (Tau detachment) (Elite 2)
3 Shas'ui (90 points), Team Leader upgrade (5), Hard-Wired Drone Controller, 1 Marker Drone (30), 3x Targeting Array (30)

Hellhound (Fast Attack 1)
Hellound (115), Rough Terrain Mod (5)

Leman Russ (Heavy Support 1)
Leman Russ (140), Heavy Bolter Hull (5), Heavy Bolter Sponsor (10)

Leman Russ (Heavy Support 2)
Leman Russ (140), Heavy Bolter Hull (5), Heavy Bolter Sponsor (10)

Basilisk (Heavy Support 3)
Basilisk (100), Indirect Fire (25)

Storm Trooper (Doctrin 1)

Cameleoline (Doctrin 2)
4 Shock Troopers Unit (40), 1 Storm Trooper Unit (10), 3 Command Squad (30), 1 Heavy Support Squad (10)

Sharpshooters (Doctrin 3)
4 Shock TRoopers Unit (40), 1 Heavy Weapon Squad (10)

Stealth Team Support (Doctrin 4)

I hope to be able to use the Chimaeras + Stealth team to take a hold somewhere and advanced position so I will be able to smash them hard with my general troops + tank.

Z-Axis, I await your jugement. Please send me to the Imperial Inquisition if you think I have erred as a General, and that I harbour traitorous toughts.

Winterwind

2009-01-12, 07:19 PM

One question I was wondering about (for the record, I do not plan to do such an unfluffy thing, I'm just curious) - theoretically, there is nothing in the current rules that forbids an Independent Character bearing the Mark of any particular Chaos God to join a squad that follows (be it by having an Icon or by being something like Khornate Berzerkers or Slaaneshi Noise Marines or alike) a different God, right?

EDIT:
Hi there, may I know how to post an excel sheet here? I have made my first IG army (1991 points) with Tau support, and I would like to try to post the tables here..I believe if you want to post the Excel sheets, you will have little other options than making screenshots, uploading those somewhere to a place like Photobucket, and posting them as images; alternately, you could upload the sheets themselves somewhere and post the link to them.

Illiterate Scribe

2009-01-12, 07:19 PM

Leman Russ

Leman Russ

Basilisk

Well, it's got my approval! :smalltongue:

One question I was wondering about (for the record, I do not plan to do such an unfluffy thing, I'm just curious) - theoretically, there is nothing in the current rules that forbids an Independent Character bearing the Mark of any particular Chaos God to join a squad that follows (be it by having an Icon or by being something like Khornate Berzerkers or Slaaneshi Noise Marines or alike) a different God, right?

You certainly can't do that with Chaos Daemons, but I don't know about their traitor Astartes brethren.

Altima

2009-01-12, 07:38 PM

SolkaTruesilver: Most players will not allow you to play with non-canon 'allied' units outside of Apocalypse settings.

Otherwise, you'd end up with Dark Eldar players with terminators. Or basilisks and leman russes. Or Tau with wyches, genestealers, or harlies.

Erloas

2009-01-12, 07:40 PM

@Oracle_Hunter I fixed the plasma instead of fusion thing. Both are tank killing melta weapons, just one has much better range.

SolkaTruesilver maybe its just because I don't know the IG very well, but how you have your list makes it hard to tell exactly what you have. Also you should generally only give total unit cost and don't break down the upgrades and items to individual point cost. It makes it harder to read and in most Warhammer forums is not allowed as it is considered posting copywrited material. Not sure the policy here, but I think GWs general guidelines about those sorts of things is that posting lists and unit costs is fine but it shouldn't be broken down to the point where someone else can get all the point costs for the army without having the book.

If I'm reading it right you seem to have only a hand full of infantry, and most of the squads seem to only be 5-8 models big. Needing only 2 wounds to cause a morale test and guard being as easy to kill as they are it seems like you are going to have a lot of running troops pretty quickly. Not sure how well having Tau in your list would go over with your opponents, but I'm assuming you already know the people you will be gaming with aren't going to have a problem with that sort of thing.

It might be ok in an anihilation game, but it doesn't seem like you have much of anything for troops that would actually be able to take and hold an objective against any sort of an opponent force going for the same objective. What would happen in a capture and control mission if you had to try and take an opponents base?

SolkaTruesilver

2009-01-12, 08:23 PM

If I'm reading it right you seem to have only a hand full of infantry, and most of the squads seem to only be 5-8 models big. Needing only 2 wounds to cause a morale test and guard being as easy to kill as they are it seems like you are going to have a lot of running troops pretty quickly. Not sure how well having Tau in your list would go over with your opponents, but I'm assuming you already know the people you will be gaming with aren't going to have a problem with that sort of thing.

Most IG units have 10 soldiers in them.. But yhea, maybe I lack infantry... I have about.. lemme count..

40 (Squads) + 6 (heavy weapons) + 15 (Command squads) + 10 (Stormtroopers) = 71. Not ennough? Will conscripts be good ennough...?

I know Tau is not Kosher for IG, but I have designed my whole army around the concept of a Gue'Vesa guard unit, with (limited) Tau overseers/limited support. I will make lists for Kosher games..

thank you for the noticing of never posting all point breakdown. I will take care next time not to do it.

Erloas

2009-01-12, 08:57 PM

Most IG units have 10 soldiers in them.. But yhea, maybe I lack infantry... I have about.. lemme count..

40 (Squads) + 6 (heavy weapons) + 15 (Command squads) + 10 (Stormtroopers) = 71. Not ennough? Will conscripts be good ennough...?

How you wrote up the list I didn't know how many troops you had, I guess it was implied to you that most of the units were 10 models base, I didn't know that.

For comparision, my eldar 2000 point list happens to have 70 infantry as well, considering eldar are fairly elite (somewhere in the middle in terms of horde and elite) and guard are supposed to be hordy it still seems a bit low.

As for helping with the list more, I just don't know the IG well enough. I've killed them a couple times but I have no idea on all their options.

SolkaTruesilver

2009-01-12, 09:45 PM

How you wrote up the list I didn't know how many troops you had, I guess it was implied to you that most of the units were 10 models base, I didn't know that.

For comparision, my eldar 2000 point list happens to have 70 infantry as well, considering eldar are fairly elite (somewhere in the middle in terms of horde and elite) and guard are supposed to be hordy it still seems a bit low.

As for helping with the list more, I just don't know the IG well enough. I've killed them a couple times but I have no idea on all their options.

70 Infantry as well? Ouch.. Ok.. Well, I'll wait until an actual IG Master will burn me on a stake before re-tooling that list (which will happen within the next hour, I am sure. Z-Axis, I'm looking at you).

But the problem is, except for a (little) more shock troopers remaining, and 20 Rambo-esque soldiers meant to be Conscripts, I don't have models remaining..

But then, i can always go buy more Shock Troopers. You never have ennough Shock troopers. I seriously miss Heavy Weapon teams tho...

Erloas

2009-01-12, 11:19 PM

Well after looking around some I have little better idea of what I'm looking at. (as a side, the two lists I glanced over at 40konline had 110 infantry/hw at 1750 and another with 170 at 1850, though the last was a foot-slogger list mostly)

It looks like most of what you have for anti-horde is the lemen russes and basilisk, and while they are great at potentially killing a lot, they can kill very little too. In my last game I faced 2 lemen russes and a basilisk too, and between the 3 tanks they were only fully responsible for a single kill point, when a well placed basilisk shot wiped out an entire group of dire avengers in a single shot. Other then that they hit a few things here and there and they killed some, but in the end they weren't reliable enough to kill units. They weakened up 3 other units, but not to the point where they were no longer effective.

The chimeras have some anti-horde, but given their low side armor and the fact that they are likely to be moving up they are also very likely to get shot in the sides and it isn't going to take a lot to disable or destroy one. With only 2 transports and very few other units that might be moving up with them, I see them being taken down quickly. *Personally I would target them as a fairly high priority, not as much because they are dangerous, but because they are one of only a few units that are likely to be moving much, and if I can control the movement phase I can control pretty much the whole game. Especially in an objectives game where there are few other units likely to go for an objective with much of a chance of getting there quickly or alive. I would target them over the lemen russes because I know I can take care of them quickly and not have to worry about them, where as shots at a lemen russ is likely to be completely ineffective and wasted until I can get close enough to hit them in CC, with meltas, or in the rear. Although a lot of players would probably target the lemen russes first because they are more dangerous. It also helps that I have 10 units with str6 shots that are likely to destroy a 10 armor vehicle. Obviously that isn't the case for all opponents.

As for your anti-tank/MC that is obviously the Lascannons, and they are good at it, but how you have them broken down you are essentially paying 75points (I believe) for a single lascannon shot, and statistically speaking you are going to need on average 2 shots to get a hit, and about 4-6 shots to make sure a vehicle is useless (of course it can happen in 1 and it can not happen after 10). With your 3 lascannons split up like that you are looking at essentially 2 turns for 225points of troops to remove a single vehicle. Of course with 2 shots you are likely at least keeping it from shooting back, which is sometimes almost as good.

The 3 autocannons together look pretty reasonable, not great at anti-meq, but decent at medium troops (not so much hordes at likely only 3 hits a turn) and great against light vehicles.

I'm not sure what the Hellhound is capable of.

The storm troopers look pretty good, I just don't know if they have enough support to get things done. They don't have the numbers to take a lot of shots in CC or shooting and they don't have the saves to survive a round if they get stuck out of CC within enemy fire range.

One other thing about the lascannon squads is that without being able to move they are likely to be dropped on in short order by deepstrikers, outflankers and bikes/jetbikes. It takes on average 18 shots to kill a MEQ with lasguns, which means even at rapid fire range and with the lascannon none of the units can really protect itself from most things. At least if the lascannons were in their own group and you had 3 groups of infantry protecting them that gives you more shots at anything closing and several other units for the enemy to chew through before they get to the cannons, giving your cannons another turn or 3 to shot at the big stuff. You also don't want to be stuck with the choice of shooting the lascannon at something big and not being able to have the rest of the squad even try to protect itself or having the entire unit try to protect itself and basically waste the shot of the lascannon.

It just seems that the heavy weapon crews, the lascannons especially, are at a cross-purpose with the rest of the unit, and actually the more expensive part of the unit. I like having as much of my unit as possible dedicated to a single type of task so I get the most out of the points.

I'm not sure exactly how the tau stealthsuites fit into things.

Zorg

2009-01-12, 11:57 PM

Oh, and a quick question. Dreadnaught Close Combat weapons, do they act exactly as a power fist? As in, reduces his attacks to Initiative 1? Because that is what everybody at the shop says. I doubt it though, cause it does not say so in the rulebook, at least anywhere I could find.[/spoiler]

Well everybody at the shop is wrong :smallwink: Rules on page 73 of the rulebook: it's a power weapon that dobles strength, and there's nothing about initiative order changing.

Altima

2009-01-13, 12:51 AM

Well everybody at the shop is wrong :smallwink: Rules on page 73 of the rulebook: it's a power weapon that dobles strength, and there's nothing about initiative order changing.

This is correct. The dreadnought is so huge and powerful that it does not find the weapon (DCCW) to be unwieldy, and retains normal initiative (at 4-ish, I think). I believe it loses initiative or attacks if it's stunned or shaken. Plus the weapon can be destroyed (bringing the strength down by half).

Winterwind

2009-01-13, 07:04 AM

Need advice for my army list again.

{table]Type|Composition|Equipment|Point Cost
HQ|Chaos Lord|Terminator armour, Demon Weapon|145
Troops|10 Chaos Space Marines|1 melta, 1 lascannon|180
Troops|7 Khornate Berzerkers, 1 Skull Champion|Powerfist, meltabombs|213
attached:|Chaos-Rhino|none|35
Troops|5 Plague Marines|1 melta|125
Troops|5 Plague Marines|1 plasma gun|130
Heavy Support|5 Chaos Space Marine Havocs|1 lascannon, 3 missile launchers|170
||
Total:|998
Troops|6 Noise Marines|5 Sonic Blasters, 1 Blastmaster|185
Fast Attack|8 Chaos Raptors, 1 Aspirant Champion|Icon of Tzeentch, 2 meltas; meltabombs|260
|Chaos-Rhino|Inferno-missile launcher|50
||
Total:|1493
Heavy Support|3 Obliterators|none|225
Elites|6 Possessed Marines|Icon of Slaanesh|176
Elites|3 Chaos Terminators|1 heavy flamer, 1 powerclaw-pair|105
||
Total:|1999[/table]
How important do you think is this lascannon on the Tactical squad? Because I have been thinking about the list with Erloas' teachings in mind (i.e., whether each unit has a distinct role and position in the overall strategy and realized that, while the rest of the army is fine probably, the TacSquad is decidedly schizophrenic - on one hand, they are supposed to march forward, shoot the enemy with the firepower of all their numbers (admittedly not really high, but still the unit with the most models in the whole army) and claim objectives, all of which does not really mesh well with this expensive heavy lascannon. So, I've been thinking whether a plasmagun wouldn't actually suit the purposes of this team much better; I don't have my codex with me here at work, but if I'm not mistaken this should free up 5 or 10 points, which in the former case could be used for a personal icon for the berzerkers and in the latter for an Icon of Chaos Undivided for the TacSquad itself (obviously on someone else than the guy with the plasmagun!).
Thing is, I'm not sure whether this lascannon is not actually important for the army, and lack the experience to estimate that. It seems to me I could do without it, but what do I know? Hence, my plea for advice. :smallsmile:

Also, I'm not sure about the ideal role for that second Rhino, and whether to mount the missile launcher on it. If it rolls forward with a melee squad, it is guaranteed not to live long, and it will probably not be able to use its launcher while on the move anyway. On the other hand, it could also stay in the far back, shielding the Havoc squad from possible flankers and carrying them to other positions if their initial one should not give them enough worthy targets anymore; in this case, the missile launcher would decidedly be useful.
The thing is, the points for this missile launcher would probably go into a powerweapon for the Raptor champion, so I'd better make up my mind before putting those together. And since the practical worth of that Rhino is something I completely lack the experience to estimate, I figured I'd better ask for advice regarding that, too.

And finally, I'm not sure if I shouldn't actually do whatever I can to get Demonic Possession onto those Rhinos. After all, they won't do much good for carrying troops to the battlefield if they keep getting stunned. Or isn't that mandatory?

Bryn

2009-01-13, 08:12 AM

70 Infantry as well? Ouch.. Ok.. Well, I'll wait until an actual IG Master will burn me on a stake before re-tooling that list (which will happen within the next hour, I am sure. Z-Axis, I'm looking at you).
:smallamused: Well, I can't say no to a good witch-burning...

Considering how many times I've got the rules wrong, though, take my advice with a grain of salt (which will, of course, be deducted from your salt ration).

Mostly, it looks pretty good. You haven't spent too many points on upgrades (as opposed to getting more models), which is wise.

There are a few minor nitpicks.

If I were you, I wouldn't put a meltagun and a lascannon in the same squad (platoon 2 squad 1). A lascannon squad can sit towards the back and take advantage of their range, but a meltagun (like a flamer) requires you to get quite close before it is effective. Every time you move to get into range with the meltagun, you can't fire the lascannon, and every time you sit still to fire the lascannon, you probably won't be in melta-range.

There are a couple of ways you can deal with that. Your command squads have the advantage of Chimeras to let them get closer to the enemy, and hence into melta range. Consider moving the meltagun into those squads, which can take more than one special weapon.

(On the other hand, it appears that you're planning to send them into combat, which is suggested by the power sword on the officer. Though I've given all my officers powerswords, mostly to make some nice conversions, in general I wouldn't advise it: Guardsmen have so few attacks and at such low strength that they're not hugely effective in combat. On the other hand, a powersword is cheap enough not to really matter at this size of game, so go ahead and give them to officers if you like :smallwink:)

Essentially, when you have multiple weapons in a squad, try to pick weapons which work well together - similar purpose and range - so you can get useful shots out of both every turn you fire.

Can't fault your tanks.

Right now, I'm away from books, so I can't really talk about wargear choices. In any case, apart from that one squad, it looks pretty good.

Personally, I'd allow a fluff-justified combination of two armies, e.g. Tau and Gue'la like you have. This is particularly true because both Tau and Guard are shooty armies, so you don't really get an unfair advantage.

More words later!

Killersquid

2009-01-13, 08:55 AM

Sorry, can't give you any advice WW, don't have and haven't played against Chaos.

But I also have a list that needs looking over, I posted it earlier, but it wasn't answered. Its a Speed Freeks army (lotsa red), and it revolves around mostly around speed, and the vehicles abusing the Big Mek's Force Field.

{table] Type|Unit|Upgrades|Cost|
HQ|Wazdakka Gutsmek| |160|
| | Big Mek | Kustom Force Field, 3 Grot Oiler|90|
|Troops|11 Boyz, 1 Nob|1 Big Shoota, Power Klaw, 'eavy armor|117|
| |11 Boyz, 1 Nob|1 Big Shoota, Power Klaw, 'eavy armor|117|
| |Trukk|Red Paint Job, Grot riggers|45|
| |Trukk|Red Paint Job, Grot Riggers|45|
| |5 Warbikers, 1 Nob Biker|Power Klaw and Bosspole|190|
|Elites|11 Burna Boyz| |165|
|Heavy Support|Battlewagon|Red Paint job, Killcannon, grot riggers, armor plates, deff rolla, 4 big shootas, 'ard case|240|
|Fast Attack|2 Warbuggies, 1 Skorcha|3 Red paint jobs, 3 grot riggers|130|
| |5 Nob Bikers 1 Painboy Biker|4 Power Klaws, 1 Big Choppa, 1 Bosspole, 1 WAAAGH! Banner, Grot Orderly, 6 Cybork Bodies|290|
| | | |Total|
| | | |1499|[/table]

I'm thinking of getting rid of the riggers on the Buggies, as if the gun dies, its pretty much dead anyway (or next turn). Anything else I should do? The trukks are dedicated for the boyz, and the Wagon will carry the Burnaz and Big mek.

Illiterate Scribe

2009-01-13, 10:23 AM

Winterwind

2009-01-13, 10:39 AM

I'm pretty sure it's "distribute wounds evenly on all models, roll saves together for models of same type, allocate unsaved wounds within each group of identical models in such a manner as to, if possible, remove entire models".

Erloas

2009-01-13, 11:00 AM

Just one more thing to say about the IG... while the lasgun is pretty much the weakest gun in the game it can still kill things. The key to killing things with them is of course mass fire. It takes an average of 18 shots to kill a T4 3+save model, it takes 12 shots to kill a T3 3+ model (eldar elites, tau elites I believe too), it takes 8 shots to kill a T3 4+ model (eldar mediums, others too I'm sure) and it takes about 6 shots to kill a T4 6+ AS (such as tyrnids or orks, slightly more factoring in the 6+ AS, but not a lot). That seems like a lot of shots until you consider that you get about 3-4 IG per MEQ, and probably about 1:1 to 2:1 against the CC horde. It just means you have to be able to lay down the fire as quickly as possible and keep it up. Against the 12" range of most CC units pistols (since guard have the biggest trouble at winning once things get into CC) you should get 1-2 shots at long range and 2-4 shots at rapid fire range, so given your relative point cost and the number of shots you get you really should be able to come out fairly evenly.
That however can't happen if the majority of your lasgun infantry have to shoot at the same target as your anti-MC/Vehicle heavy weapons.

As for the Ork list, if I count it right you have 35 infantry, 12 bikes, and your vehicles (buggies are vehicle right? GW page isn't up atm). At 1500 points that is very few for a horde army. I'm not sure what the bikes are capable of. It seems like if the enemy can disable your trukks early on, which being AV10 all around will be short work from most anti-tank shots considering there is a 50% chance of destroyed or immobilized on a pen, then there is no way you have enough boyz to make it across the field. It would only take about 3 wounds for them to start having to take morale tests again and they aren't likely to pass too many of them.
Obviously though this is supposed to be mechanized, so its expected to have fewer numbers... Without knowing what the bikes or the HQ can do its hard to say too much. My fights against Orks so far have been almost entirely infantry with a few walkers, so not too familiar with their vehicles or bikes.

SolkaTruesilver

2009-01-13, 01:24 PM

:
If I were you, I wouldn't put a meltagun and a lascannon in the same squad (platoon 2 squad 1). A lascannon squad can sit towards the back and take advantage of their range, but a meltagun (like a flamer) requires you to get quite close before it is effective. Every time you move to get into range with the meltagun, you can't fire the lascannon, and every time you sit still to fire the lascannon, you probably won't be in melta-range.

Oh, Bloody Hell, you are right! I forgot that I have spare Grenade Launchers and Flamer guys..

Okay. hum.. the Officer with the Medic will have 3 flamers with him. I will combine the two meltaguns together with the other officer. I wish to keep the Power Sword for the General, but merely because his model have one, so I want to make it look good...

I will also spread some grenade launchers among my Lascannon guys. Do I have to pay for Krak and Frag grenades when I buy a Grenade Launcher?

I will have to cut a little in term of points.. hum.. Any idea? Are the Rough Terrain Mod. really necessary? I wanted to make my Chimaera really fast, even taking it trough hard terrain if necessary.. Cameleoline cloaks seems like a good alternative to my weak armor (and armor-piercing weapons). When you think about it, Sharpshooter only increases the shooting probability from 50% to 58,3%. Is it worth 50 points?

... yhea, probably..

Hmm.. maybe do away with the sponsor weapons on my Leman Russ? Are those really necessary? Or the Heavy Stubbers on my Chimaera?

Killersquid

2009-01-13, 05:53 PM

While it's a downright cheesy tactic, have you considered more musical wounds, killersquid?

When you have a unit of Nob bikers, each armed with different equipment, I believe that the casualty allocation rules with a complex unit mean that you take one wound off each model before they start dropping, thus circumventing the 'if thou suffer enough wounds to remove a model, then THOU MUST' rule. Add in a painboy, and you have a monster, near-invincible, death unit ready to rain down attacks (or dispense several dozen twin-linked S5 shots) into nearby units.

Yea, that's what I'm doing, and it is a very cheesy tactic, but a tactic nonetheless. I feel a bit bad about it.

Erloas, although the army is small for Orks, the bikes make up for it. They are very tough, with 4+ Armor and Cover (and +3 cover with Turbo Boost), and with the nobs, Feel No Pain and +5 Invuln from Cybork Bodies. I make up my lack of numbers with sheer power, and carry Twin-Linked Dakkaguns, Assault 3, 18" range, and an AP and Str of 5. If it doesn't work, I can take out a few bikes and get more boyz.

Erloas

2009-01-13, 07:22 PM

Erloas, although the army is small for Orks, the bikes make up for it. They are very tough, with 4+ Armor and Cover (and +3 cover with Turbo Boost), and with the nobs, Feel No Pain and +5 Invuln from Cybork Bodies. I make up my lack of numbers with sheer power, and carry Twin-Linked Dakkaguns, Assault 3, 18" range, and an AP and Str of 5. If it doesn't work, I can take out a few bikes and get more boyz.

Unless the Ork refernce sheet on GWs site is wrong, the Dakkaguns are Assault 2, 18" range, Str 5 and AP4, making them a little better but fewer shots.

Normally I would recommend against single large units that you expect to do everything because a few units are too easy to deal with. Though since that unit is only about 20% of your force and most of your other units are fairly cheap it does put enough out there for the enemy to deal with.

If I remember right they get the cover save from the smoke from the bikes, so with a decent armor save, and a decent cover save is the upgrade for the invulnerable save really all that worth while since you can only take one save reguardless? Since most of the things that negate cover are str4 AP5 (flamers), I wouldn't see that as being too big a deal for them. It mostly depends on how much the upgrade costs, which I don't have any idea of.

Since I had the sheet already from the numbers with the nurgle bikers, just for reference, with the 4+ save (cover or armor), t5, and FNP 12 hits from Str4 will average at 2 unsaved wounds, 1 after FNP. At S6 and the same conditions that goes to 6 hits. They aren't easy to kill, but they will die like everything else. To me knowing what sort of firepower a unit can likely take at what sort of casualies gives me a better feel for what I can do with them.

Rayzin

2009-01-13, 07:52 PM

Diffrent codices, he is probably looking at the 4th ed ork codice. The one on GW is the new 5th ed.

Altima

2009-01-13, 08:07 PM

Winterwind: Only recommendation on your list is to add more units to your havoc squad. As it is now, after only a single wound, any further casualties will result in you losing heavy weapons.

Killersquid

2009-01-13, 08:36 PM

Diffrent codices, he is probably looking at the 4th ed ork codice. The one on GW is the new 5th ed.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1810080_Orks_FAQ_2007_5th_Edition.pdf

"The Dakkagun's profile will be changed as follows: Range 18", Str 5, AP 5, Assault 3".

It is an errata change, the new books have it, but still not signifying they are twin-linked (which they are).

Also, the significance of the cybork bodies is in the case you run into things which negate armor and cover saves (Tau with Markerlights, maybe Space Marines).

Rayzin

2009-01-13, 08:54 PM

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1810080_Orks_FAQ_2007_5th_Edition.pdf
It is an errata change, the new books have it, but still not signifying they are twin-linked (which they are).

Oops :smalltongue:.
I had a 4th edition codices and when i checked the reference sheet so i thought it was changed.

Winterwind

2009-01-14, 10:41 AM

Winterwind: Only recommendation on your list is to add more units to your havoc squad. As it is now, after only a single wound, any further casualties will result in you losing heavy weapons.I had been afraid this might be the case; I had hoped that nobody pointing it out in this thread on any occasion when I posted the list meant I was overestimating the danger there.
Of course, further models assigned to the Havoc squad will likely see very little action and contribute little to the battle with their own firepower, which seems undesirable as well, and hopefully the Havocs won't take too much damage in their perpetual cover they will hopefully never be forced to leave. I figure I will just play a few games and, according to how it works out, experiment a bit with the number of Havocs I will need to get from somewhere to fill up the team (about the only way I can think of would be dropping three Plague Marines from one squad, adding the remaining two to the other - brining it to Nurgle's favoured number of 7 - and freeing up 69 points for more Havocs and maybe some equipment).

I'm still wondering about the ideal armament of this TacSquad. I've realized now that giving it some long-range weaponry might not be such a bad idea after all - most of my other Troop Choices will likely want to get close to the enemy, so one Troop Choice that can hang back and defend objectives on my side while still contributing to the battle might be a good idea. On the other hand, this still leaves the vast majority of the squad unable to fire, not to mention the melta would likely be wasted. I'm torn now between leaving the squad as it is (with melta and lascannon), replacing the lascannon with a plasmagun (so the squad can move about while still shooting with all its weapons), replacing the lascannon with a heavy bolter (which fits better with the range profile of the rest of the squad) and leaving the lascannon but replacing the melta with a plasmagun (to further increase the squad's long range potential).

Zorg

2009-01-14, 11:02 AM

I'm entering in the upcoming Clash of the Titans (http://adepts.freehostia.com/new/pages/cott/cott09.html) tournament at the end of Febuary, so I'd like some reviews of the list I've made.

The conditions are that you must have one more troops choice than any other area (so if you have three elites you must have four troops minimum) and, obviously, be 1500 points from a current codex. Not really an issue as an early draft accidentaly had seven troops choices, but worth mentioning anyways ;)

The missions will be two of Capture and Control, two of Seize Ground, and one of Annihilation. Deployment will be determined randomly before each match.

With that in mind I've assembled a fairly infantry heavy list, and I'll put some more info on my choices after.

HQ:

Captain Sicarius (200pts)

Troops:

Tactical Squad 1 (10 strong): Power sword, flamer, missile launcher (185)
Rhino with extra armour (50)

Tactical squad 2 (10 strong): Power sword, meltagun, lascannon (200)
Razorback with heavy bolters, storm bolter and extra armour (65)

Tactical Squad 3 (10 strong): Power sword, plasma gun, missile launcher (195)
Rhino with extra armour (50)

Tactical squad 4 (5 strong): Power sword, combi-plasma (115)
Razorback with heavy bolters and extra armour (55)

Scout Squad 1 (5 strong): Power sword, shotgun, 3x combat blades (90)

Fast Attack:

Landspeeder Storm: heavy bolter (50)

Landspeeder: Typhoon launcher and heavy bolter (90)

Heavy Support:

Predator Destructor: Heavy bolters (85)

Sgt Chronus (70)

---

The core is obviously a strong infantry block. At the very basic level the army is designed to get to medium range, and hammer the enemy as hard as possible, with lots of mobile fire support as backup.

One thing I've been toying with is removing the lascannon from squad 2, replacing it with a missile launcher as I can make it S9 with Tank Hunters thanks to Sicarius. Then I'm not sure about the other ten points though - melta bombs for squad 4 and the scouts, upgrade a power sword to a power fist?

I'm taking Sicarius because I really like the LD10 for all units, I can give the lascannon squad Tank Hunters, and re-roll to seize initiative. Also he's a death machine in HtH.

Chronus is mostly a bit of fun, but also the pred then hits on 2+ and can ignore stunned and shaken (thus the tank has no extra armour), making it alot more deadly vs light vehicles and horde infantry.

The general tactic is to split squad 2, with the heavy weapon hanging back, and Sicarius rolling with the other five, along with two other tac squads. The remaing tac squad (either 3 or 4), either moves to a flank to shore it up with the pred, or forms a gunline in cover to protect the home objective. The Typhoon is there to hang back and shoot whatever it can until it gets blown up, but hopefully that won't be too soon into the games. The scouts are a bit of a wild card, designed to either outflank and hit support weapons and lightly guarded objectives, or to make a last minute dash as they can move up to 24" a turn, and don't have to disembark to capture now.

Any advice, suggestions and criticism is most welcome :)

Wraith

2009-01-14, 11:25 AM

You seem to have a solid, competitive-looking list there, Zorg. At first I was skeptical about having 2 special characters in one (reasonably small) army, but the way you have explained it makes perfect sense - Sgt, Chronus' presence protecting your only (and yet, probably going to be very effective) Heavy Choice is a stroke of genius.

The simplest thing I would suggest is that you swap the equipment around on some of your Tactical Units/Transports to make their threat value more balanced.
For example, at the moment you have Tac. Squad 2 with lots of expensive upgrades - Heavy Bolters on the Rhino and a Lascannon in the squad it comes with, which tome just screams "Shoot this thing and cause more trouble than anything else!". Meanwhile, Tac. Squad 1 has a Flamer that will spend the first 2 turns not doing anything until it comes into range, so it's comparatively safe to ignore while the ones with Heavy Weapons are taken out early. Why not give Squad 1 the Bolters, so it can also make a nuisance of itself while Squad 2's Rhino can be covered by it's Lascannon?

It might just be a cosmetic change, but in a closely fought game it often pays to spread your weapons out, not only because you can then put them in multiple threatening positions (and thus scaring your opponent into having to spread out his own army to counteract them) but because you'll still have big guns left even after one or two of them have been taken out in the first couple of turns. Eggs in baskets, and all that. :smallsmile:

Having said that, I think that the most significant advice that I would to offer is that you think long and hard about what you expect from your Scouts. I personally would go down the route of giving them melta-bombs as it's a fairly cheap upgrade that can do great things in the hands of a Scouting unit, and if nothing else they can have a go at blowing up a tank or maybe two before your opponent realises that it's a quite small, comparatively lightly-armoured scoring unit that they can score some quick points from.

It might be because I'm an Eldar Player, and therefore paranoid by nature, but I always worry about units that are described with a phrase like "wild card" :smalltongue:
Personal experience tells me that you should never put a unit on the table (and certainly not right beside your enemies' front lines!) and just 'hope for the best'. Have a plan for them and stick to it, or swap them for something that will definitely contribute to your victory! :smallbiggrin:

Zorg

2009-01-14, 01:03 PM

The Razorback only has a transport capacity of 6 - so the lascannon squad will split int two units of 5, with the heavy weapon getting to walk (or stand still and shoot more likely) Being an eldar player I'll forgive your lack of knowledge of mankind's wonderous machines :smallwink: If they made ten man transports with heavy weapons.... [/drool] Making me long for the good ol' days when you could stuff five guys in the back of a predator.

As I said I'd been considering giving the scouts melta-bombs, but I'm somewhat torn. The new rear armour rules mean the scout's krak grenades aren't that bad (6+D6 vs AV10 mostly), but it'll be trickier against a landraider. The unit is mostly there as a 'firefighter' squad. They're the most mobile unit in a marine army, and pretty cost effective, but not as tough.

There is the tricky bit of where to get the points for them tho...

Erloas

2009-01-14, 01:04 PM

I had been afraid this might be the case; I had hoped that nobody pointing it out in this thread on any occasion when I posted the list meant I was overestimating the danger there.
Of course, further models assigned to the Havoc squad will likely see very little action and contribute little to the battle with their own firepower, which seems undesirable as well, and hopefully the Havocs won't take too much damage in their perpetual cover they will hopefully never be forced to leave.
Personally I wouldn't worry too much about it. It seems any more that the trend in killing MEQ (and most things really) is mass fire and failed saves rather then fewer shots that negate armor, because spending all of those points for a heavy1-2 weapon that is AP2/3 to negate their armor is often wasted when they just get a 4+ cover save instead. Of course that might not be the case in all places. With that being the case and the way wounds are distrubuted now before rolling to save you have to have a lot more "expendable" models in a unit before you are guarenteed to save a heavy weapon, because you never know where those 1s and 2s will show up.
It of course depends on the relative cost of the unit too, if you are spending 5-8 points for more wounds like with non marine armies it isn't so much of an issue as it is when you are spending 15-20 points for a model with the sole purpose of dieing.

I'm still wondering about the ideal armament of this TacSquad. I've realized now that giving it some long-range weaponry might not be such a bad idea after all - most of my other Troop Choices will likely want to get close to the enemy, so one Troop Choice that can hang back and defend objectives on my side while still contributing to the battle might be a good idea. On the other hand, this still leaves the vast majority of the squad unable to fire, not to mention the melta would likely be wasted. I'm torn now between leaving the squad as it is (with melta and lascannon), replacing the lascannon with a plasmagun (so the squad can move about while still shooting with all its weapons), replacing the lascannon with a heavy bolter (which fits better with the range profile of the rest of the squad) and leaving the lascannon but replacing the melta with a plasmagun (to further increase the squad's long range potential).
I don't know the cost options, but I think it often depends on how well the unit will be able to protect itself if something gets close. Say a transport that lives to get close and drops off its CC unit, or a unit deep striking or outflanking, how much firepower does the unit have that would be good in those cases where they need to take out numbers rather then just a few good shots? Would the unit be better served with weapons that can shoot and move so they can put some fire into the enemy and create some range as well. They will likely be back with the Havok squad, so which is likely to be a higher target to someone that gets back there? Are you looking for them to protect the havok squad and throw out a little ranged damage while waiting for someone to show up to kill the havoks, or are you designing them to be another primary ranged high str shooting unit that shots what it can for the first few turns and then dies (or at least gets tied up for most/all of the rest of the game) when something closes with it?

Ghal Marak

2009-01-14, 02:53 PM

Winterwind

2009-01-14, 04:07 PM

Personally I wouldn't worry too much about it. It seems any more that the trend in killing MEQ (and most things really) is mass fire and failed saves rather then fewer shots that negate armor, because spending all of those points for a heavy1-2 weapon that is AP2/3 to negate their armor is often wasted when they just get a 4+ cover save instead. Of course that might not be the case in all places. With that being the case and the way wounds are distrubuted now before rolling to save you have to have a lot more "expendable" models in a unit before you are guarenteed to save a heavy weapon, because you never know where those 1s and 2s will show up.
It of course depends on the relative cost of the unit too, if you are spending 5-8 points for more wounds like with non marine armies it isn't so much of an issue as it is when you are spending 15-20 points for a model with the sole purpose of dieing.Yeah, that's just it - I'm wary of using 60 points for four models which, if everything goes well, will be doing squat for four turns until something happens to show up they can shoot at (and probably not even then, as the squad will have better targets), and otherwise have no other purpose but dying - especially if even that is not necessarily going to save the "real" Havocs.

By the way, what exactly does MEQ stand for?

I don't know the cost options, but I think it often depends on how well the unit will be able to protect itself if something gets close. Say a transport that lives to get close and drops off its CC unit, or a unit deep striking or outflanking, how much firepower does the unit have that would be good in those cases where they need to take out numbers rather then just a few good shots? Would the unit be better served with weapons that can shoot and move so they can put some fire into the enemy and create some range as well. They will likely be back with the Havok squad, so which is likely to be a higher target to someone that gets back there? Are you looking for them to protect the havok squad and throw out a little ranged damage while waiting for someone to show up to kill the havoks, or are you designing them to be another primary ranged high str shooting unit that shots what it can for the first few turns and then dies (or at least gets tied up for most/all of the rest of the game) when something closes with it?Well, I figured the job of protecting the Havocs could be done by a 5-man plague marine squad with a plasmagun - they are one of my cheapest units, durable enough (or so I like to delude myself) to bind whatever comes to assault the Havocs for long enough for reinforcements to arrive, and can shoot at whatever happens to be within 24".

As for the TacSquad... my initial idea was to have them advance with the majority of the army and, while such squads as the berzerkers rush into close combat, provide fire support, shooting whatever needed to be shot, be it heavy vehicles and monstrous creatures or light infantry squads. The hail of fire from the Havocs and Obliterators from behind is nice to have, but between the decidedly non-shooty berzerkers, the highly low-on-number plague marine squads and the completely non-shooty possessed marines, aside the Noise Marine squad there is nothing there that can just point its guns at the enemy and throw a medium-sized bucket of dice at him. The role of the TacSquad is, decidedly, fire support, and they are meant to get close enough to use those guns, too. And as, especially in smaller games, there aren't all that many anti-vehicle units in that army-list aside the Havocs, giving them decent anti-tank weaponry in form of that melta and lascannon seemed a sensible move.

But then you came, with your wisdoms about units designed for clear purposes, capable of using all their points at the same time, and confused me again! :smalltongue: :smallwink:
The squad is currently as anti-vehicle as a Chaos Marine squad can possibly get, but it will still spend a lot of its time shooting at infantry, and most of its members still have only normal bolters. Plus, while advancing into a good position for close-range fire support, it won't be able to use its lascannon.
By your philosophies, I should probably replace their weapons with something like two plasmaguns or two heavy bolters and an icon of Chaos Undivided, or something like that - weapons that focus on killing infantry and mesh better with the bolters' range, in the former case while retaining the squad's ability to move, in the latter case useable only when stationary, but more effective at that. Your records of completely eradicating all foes you go up against indicate that not heeding your philosophies would be a very foolhardy move.
But on the other hand, I'm not sure if I don't actually need the anti-vehicle capabilities of that squad in its current form.
Hence, me being torn and absolutely uncertain what to do. :smallwink:

Justyn

2009-01-14, 04:54 PM

By the way, what exactly does MEQ stand for

Marine Equivalent, I believe.

Erloas

2009-01-14, 05:27 PM

Yep, MEQ is marine equivelent, so just about everything with a 3+ AS, and generally considered low numbers.

Having the plague marines stay back to protect works, especially since at 24" range they can still do something.

If you are expecting the tactic squad to be up front with all of your CC troops I wouldn't even think about heavy weapons. Maybe the heavy bolters if they were staying back to defend the havoks, but not if you want them up front.
Being marines, you don't have to worry so much about killing everything before it gets close, just wear it down enough. The normal bolters and a few assault or rapid fire weapon upgrades is probably enough. I would look at either the plasma or meltas, because while they aren't ideally suited for infantry they do work well (just low numbers) even while on the move, which is the important part being up close. Having a few other specialized anti-infantry units like the beserkers up front means some units do have the option of diversifying some between anti-tank and anti-infantry. It is one thing to waste a round of bolter fire at a vehicle it can't hurt to use the plasmas/meltas, its another to not even plant on using them and putting the unit in a situation where only 1/5 of them is expected to do anything.

I don't want anyone to take what I say as a given, so I try to back up all of my points with enough thought and numbers to have some good backing behind what I say. I'm also bound to loose sooner or later and I know there is a lot of 40k I haven't yet seen. But I do know that paying points for something that doesn't get used never makes much sense. Not to say a few upgrades here and there are bad even if they are situational, but the points put to those sort of things shouldn't be too many of your points overall.

onasuma

2009-01-14, 06:14 PM

And therefore, for the sake of reasoning, here is my counter argument.

Im many armies, I agree with squad optimisation, but chaos marines are one of the few where i feel mixed squads can be useful and required.

With CM's you have alot fewer squads to play around with than, lets say, guard, and squads may often need to double up in roll. My personal plague marine squads for example fill out my objective cappers and have the option of being a dab hand in combat when it is called for. When fighting tyranids, I rarely want to assualt but with tau i often find it worth it. This is due to the absense of any other real durable units i can use to tie up a shooty squad in my list.

In warhammer fantasy, squad optimisation is almost compulsory, most units being good at combat or shooting but rarely both (damn dragon mages...), where as most in 40k can do both. Marines easily excel in both areas and it seems foolish to waste that potential.

Granted, there will be times when you dont use that power fist or lascannon, but when you're sitting opposite 12 landraiders, you'll be glad you have it. Generally, I feel the security outweighs the cost of games when its not used.

Winterwind

2009-01-14, 06:15 PM

Marine Equivalent, I believe.
Yep, MEQ is marine equivelent, so just about everything with a 3+ AS, and generally considered low numbers.Thanks. :smallsmile:
Thought it might be just that, but wasn't sure if it wasn't some in-universe term I was not familiar with instead.

If you are expecting the tactic squad to be up front with all of your CC troops I wouldn't even think about heavy weapons. Maybe the heavy bolters if they were staying back to defend the havoks, but not if you want them up front. Well, I don't want them to go into CC (unless it happens to be the right thing to do at some point, of course), but close enough to shoot at stuff with their bolters... and ideally with two shots per bolter, not one.
So, not necessarily up front with the CC troops, but definitely less than 12" behind. :smallwink:

Being marines, you don't have to worry so much about killing everything before it gets close, just wear it down enough. The normal bolters and a few assault or rapid fire weapon upgrades is probably enough. I would look at either the plasma or meltas, because while they aren't ideally suited for infantry they do work well (just low numbers) even while on the move, which is the important part being up close. Having a few other specialized anti-infantry units like the beserkers up front means some units do have the option of diversifying some between anti-tank and anti-infantry. It is one thing to waste a round of bolter fire at a vehicle it can't hurt to use the plasmas/meltas, its another to not even plant on using them and putting the unit in a situation where only 1/5 of them is expected to do anything.Well, meltas and flamers aside, there are no assault weapons available to Chaos, excluding the sonic weapons of the Noise Marines (which, together with their incredibly versatility, is why they are one of my favourite units already :smallbiggrin:).
While a melta plus a plasmagun would be my favourite choice, that would free up only 5 points when dropping the lascannon. I'd rather get 10 points, so I could stick an Icon of Chaos Undivided onto that squad (I mean, what is this? I have an army of Chaos Undivided, but no squad actually bearing the sign of that?), so I figure I'll go with two meltas instead. That will, at least, retain a good deal of the squad's anti-vehicle capability.

I don't want anyone to take what I say as a given, so I try to back up all of my points with enough thought and numbers to have some good backing behind what I say. I'm also bound to loose sooner or later and I know there is a lot of 40k I haven't yet seen. But I do know that paying points for something that doesn't get used never makes much sense. Not to say a few upgrades here and there are bad even if they are situational, but the points put to those sort of things shouldn't be too many of your points overall.Considering all your victories so far seem to not have been just simple victories, but a complete or nigh-complete wipe-out of the enemy army, with your army largely intact, it would seem it is still a long way for you to lose a game. :smalltongue:

EDIT:

And therefore, for the sake of reasoning, here is my counter argument.

Im many armies, I agree with squad optimisation, but chaos marines are one of the few where i feel mixed squads can be useful and required.

With CM's you have alot fewer squads to play around with than, lets say, guard, and squads may often need to double up in roll. My personal plague marine squads for example fill out my objective cappers and have the option of being a dab hand in combat when it is called for. When fighting tyranids, I rarely want to assualt but with tau i often find it worth it. This is due to the absense of any other real durable units i can use to tie up a shooty squad in my list.

In warhammer fantasy, squad optimisation is almost compulsory, most units being good at combat or shooting but rarely both (damn dragon mages...), where as most in 40k can do both. Marines easily excel in both areas and it seems foolish to waste that potential.

Granted, there will be times when you dont use that power fist or lascannon, but when you're sitting opposite 12 landraiders, you'll be glad you have it. Generally, I feel the security outweighs the cost of games when its not used.Oh, great. Now I'm feeling completely conflicted. :smallbiggrin:
Well... that 2 melta solution might, perhaps, be a fair compromise then. Sure, it's purely close-range, but it might just make that guy in the landraider sweat a bit...

Killersquid

2009-01-15, 03:45 AM

I actually have a question about models. The bitz pack for the Battlewagon won't be out for a few months, but does anyone know what the Killcannon looks like, and if it replaces the Kannon/Lobba/Zzap Gun spot? Also, what's a good thing to convert into a deffrolla?

banjo1985

2009-01-15, 04:53 AM

Defrolla...well the black plastic tubing that toilet roles sit on in the bathroom might be viable if you cut them down in width a fair bit. Then just stick as many spikes as you can on it. :smallbiggrin:

After the limited success I have had using my Chaos army as an assault force, I have been convinced to buy a second army, which happen to be Tyranids, because I think they look good and are quick and relatively easy to paint. I'm hoping it will put the fear of god into the Ork and Tau players I regularly come up against:

HQ
1 Broodlord
8 Genestealer retinue (Scuttlers, Scything Talons, Feeder Tendrils)

Elite
3 Warriors (Extended Carapace, 1 Venom Cannon, 1 Deathspitter, 1 Devourer)

Troop
16 Termagaunts (Flesborers, Without Number)
16 Hormagaunts (Adrenal Glands)
3 Ripper Swarm bases (Spinefists)

Fast Attack
2 Raveners (Scything Talons, Devourers)

Heavy Support
Carnifex (Barbed Strangler, Scything Talons, Adrenal Gland, Scythe Tail, Tusks)
2 Zoanthrope (Warp Field, Warp Blast and Synapse Creature powers)

Misc
1 Biovore

Not sure where to fit the Biovore as I already have the 2 allowed Heavy support choices.

I've tried to set the army list up so that I have a large amount of viscious close combat troops with enough support to give them some covering fire. Other than the Carnifex there's no standout creature for an opponent to go for, so I'm expecting it to take some heavy fire, thus the long range weapon to keep him away from the front line.

I've never played such an assault orientated force before, and have no experience of even playing against Tyranids, so any advice is appreciated.

Altima

2009-01-15, 05:44 AM

After the limited success I have had using my Chaos army as an assault force, I have been convinced to buy a second army, which happen to be Tyranids, because I think they look good and are quick and relatively easy to paint. I'm hoping it will put the fear of god into the Ork and Tau players I regularly come up against:

Ork players will never, ever fear Tyranids. Orks can put more (and better) models on the table a lot easier than tyranids. More or less, orks are just plain better than Tyranids. However, there are many ways to screw with them.

HQ
1 Broodlord
8 Genestealer retinue (Scuttlers, Scything Talons, Feeder Tendrils)
Put the feeder tendrils on the broodlord (cheaper to do it that way). Forget scuttlers, too--it may or may not affect the broodlord. You'll want to outflank anyway. Just remember that the broodlord cannot fleet (which is why he sucked in 4th). Consider a hive tyrant--they are, far and away, the best buy for a tyranid list.

Three types of hive tyrant configurations: flying dakka tyrant (2xTL-devs, 12 twin linked living ammo S5 shots at BS4), flying CC monster (not as effective as the last edition with the combat moves, but implant attack+high strength+MC status will leave many a character and tank dead), and walking CC monster (what's worse than a monstrous creature with four wounds? A monstrous creature with TEN wounds--abuse that run rule with a full tyrant guard retinue).

Elite
3 Warriors (Extended Carapace, 1 Venom Cannon, 1 Deathspitter, 1 Devourer)
Warriors require two weapons each--usually a ranged weapon and a pair of scything talons or rending claws. If you go ranged, odds are you'll want deathspitters+barbed strangler (no need to purchase ES upgrade). Other than that, consider the CC option--with the run option (and leaping), a warrior can get into CC on turn three--giving them EC, two ST, more strength, and you can smack them hard. Give them bio-plasma, and your warriors can actually take out light vehicles.

Troop
16 Termagaunts (Flesborers, Without Number)
16 Hormagaunts (Adrenal Glands)
3 Ripper Swarm bases (Spinefists)

Need more troops. Preferably some genestealers (gotta love scuttlers and outflank). Hormagaunts are, more or less, a waste of points. They're good against GEQs, but, then again, so are spinegaunts. Look at it this way--would you rather have 16 naked hormagaunts or 32 spinegaunts? I think you know the correct choice.

If you do use them, there are two schools of thoughts for them--either give them both WS and I upgrades (allowing them to strike before marines) or give them a strangth upgrade (allowing them to hit harder against slower opponents).

You need at least 3 rippers before they start becoming good. They're alright, but more gaunts is usually better (rippers can't hold objectives, take double damage from template weapons, can be instant killed...).

Fast Attack
2 Raveners (Scything Talons, Devourers)

Lose the gun. If raveners are close enough to shoot devourers, they're close enough to fleet and 12" assault.

Heavy Support
Carnifex (Barbed Strangler, Scything Talons, Adrenal Gland, Scythe Tail, Tusks)
2 Zoanthrope (Warp Field, Warp Blast and Synapse Creature powers)

It's okay. You need the S upgrade to get the most out of scything tail. Unfortunately, Carnies are usually walking targets. Get the wound upgrade for more survivability. As the only MC on the board, expect him to suck and die--fast.

Misc
1 Biovore

Not sure where to fit the Biovore as I already have the 2 allowed Heavy support choices.

Biovores suck. Secondly, zoanthropes only take a single heavy support slot (you can't have more than 3 zoanthropes in an army, either).

I've tried to set the army list up so that I have a large amount of viscious close combat troops with enough support to give them some covering fire. Other than the Carnifex there's no standout creature for an opponent to go for, so I'm expecting it to take some heavy fire, thus the long range weapon to keep him away from the front line.

I've never played such an assault orientated force before, and have no experience of even playing against Tyranids, so any advice is appreciated.

Erm, you're giving your carnifex assault upgrades when you mean to keep him away from the lines? If that's the case, drop the assault upgrades, throw a venom cannon on him, and give him the wound and ES upgrade and a venom cannon.

Tyranids took a hit from the recent edition. In particular, our assault capabilities have kinda hit the crapper. Use to be, if a tyranid assault line reached someone's gun line (and make no mistake, something like 80% of your matches will be gunline battles), the game was practically over.

Generally, what tyranids do now is either full assault or full shooty. Full assault lists will see winged hive tyrants, outflanking genestealers, charging elite ninjafexes (2xScytals, AG-WS, and something else, I think), running uberfexes, running warriors/raveners, all with a solid core of disposable gaunts.

Shooty lists are fun, too. Devilfexes (2xTL-devs, ES) will eat up many a squad with 8 S6 twin linked living ammo shots--and they can be elite 'fexes, too. There are gun-fexes (BS+VC). Dakka-tyrants (2xTL-devs). Tons of spine and termagaunts (S4 living ammo makes them as good, point for point, as with marines--and marines will run out of models before you do).

banjo1985

2009-01-15, 06:05 AM

Thanks for the advice. My Warriors all have Scything Claws with their ranged weapons, as Synapse creatures they'll have to end up somewhere near the front to stop the cannon fodder from going feral.

More troops are definitely needed I guess, I'm favouring some Genestealers and more Termagaunts, this time possibly with Devourers.

On Hive Tyrants - I was trying to cut down as much as possible on big creatures shooty armies like Tau and Space Marines could blow to bits easily. I do like them though, but I thought a Broodlord with 8 expendable troops around him was a better choice.

No guns on the Raveners would save 12 points, which is another two Termagaunts I guess. If I use the Raveners properly (i.e. assault a unit, cripple them, then wipe them out in the opponents assault phase ready to assault again) they won't need guns.

Quite honestly, I only inculde the Carnifex for the Barbed Strangler, it's the only creature in that list that can really use one effectively. I guess I should have focussed it all shooty or all claws, but to be honest I liked the way the model looked with that combination of weaponry. There's nothing to stop me setting the Carnfiex up differently I suppose, I don't play with the kind of people that would take issue with this really.

Altima

2009-01-15, 06:16 AM

Because of the new template weapon rules, all tyranids can use a barbed strangler effectively.

A six-strong warrior squad with deathspitters, strength upgrade, and a barbed stranger (relatively kitted out for CC) is a horror among the game, and will decimate anything without a 2+ save.

Devourers on gaunts is a very, very bad thing. Waste of points, more or less.

Tau will be relatively easy to win against. They get the shaft even more in this edition than we did (arguably). Expect to see stealth suits with burst cannons that will shred your gaunts, annoying battle suits (probably with smart missiles), gunlining firewarriors (possibly with devilfishes in order to perform Fish of Fury and bring in more cannons and missiles), and, of course, the hammerhead with that god-awful railgun and its submunitions.

Best way to deal with Tau? Gaunt-wrapping (wrapping two gaunt squads in such a way as they all get 4+ cover saves due to LOS blocking) and out-flanking genestealers. A tau player will wet themselves when an unshaken genie squad pops out at their table edge and assaults them. It will really make them think twice about split-deploying next game. Lastly, it's really, really fun to watch a single barbed strangler shot (from a carnie) land on a broadside or battlesuit squadron and wipe it out. Instant death rocks!

Also, if you really want to get away from the monstrous creatures, take a bunch of warriors. You can get three elite slots of 'em and up to two HQ slots of them (I miss heavy support warrior squads...). However, MC are really good--one, they can take a lot of punishment. Two, they can dish out some punishment. Three, they're the only reliable way to truly take out vehicles anymore (in close combat). That -2 to vehicle damage from the VC will really grind on your nerves after a while. Four, they can take a lot of punishment.

banjo1985

2009-01-15, 06:42 AM

Because of the new template weapon rules, all tyranids can use a barbed strangler effectively.

A six-strong warrior squad with deathspitters, strength upgrade, and a barbed stranger (relatively kitted out for CC) is a horror among the game, and will decimate anything without a 2+ save.

I guess from the pure amount of attacks rolled? A good squad to rip Ork Boyz to shreds I guess.

Tau will be relatively easy to win against. They get the shaft even more in this edition than we did (arguably).

I'm very inexperienced with Tyranids, and indeed recent Warhammer stuff in it's entirety. What exactly has happened that has ballsed up the Tyranids compared to previous editions? Is it getting rid of node creatures, so that your gaunts have to rely on backup from synapse creatures? I've heard the new edition makes Tyranids more agile as a whole, as well as making leader creatures immune to instant death, which should be a big plus?

Lastly, it's really, really fun to watch a single barbed strangler shot (from a carnie) land on a broadside or battlesuit squadron and wipe it out. Instant death rocks!

This I like the sound of. Broadside Battle Suits are horrific things, what with being able to shoot from behind blocking terrain and all. The guy I play against has three of the buggers.

Also, if you really want to get away from the monstrous creatures, take a bunch of warriors. You can get three elite slots of 'em and up to two HQ slots of them (I miss heavy support warrior squads...). However, MC are really good--one, they can take a lot of punishment. Two, they can dish out some punishment. Three, they're the only reliable way to truly take out vehicles anymore (in close combat). That -2 to vehicle damage from the VC will really grind on your nerves after a while. Four, they can take a lot of punishment.

I appreciate the taking punishment arguement. Fortunately, to my knowledge the Tau player has no vehicles whatsoever, and the Space Marine/Ork player just has a single Wartrukk (or whatever the new big beefy thing is), so at the moment it's not much to worry about. I wouldn't want to use the 'Nids against my own Chaos army though, 2 Rhino's a Predator and a Vindicator would be rather harder to combat.

Erloas

2009-01-15, 10:51 AM

What hurt the tyrnids, and other CC oriented armies is the fact that you can no longer consolidate into a new combat. It used to be if a unit got into the gunline they could wipe out a unit and usually consolidate into the next, killing 2 units a turn (one on their turn, one on the opponents turn) and they could never be shot at. Since you can't consolidate into combat any more you can only ever kill 1 unit a turn and if you wipe that unit out in your turn then that unit is sitting in the middle of the enemy lines with all of their guns around it, meaning it will be shot to pieces in your opponents turn before you get to do anything with them again.

banjo1985

2009-01-15, 11:45 AM

Oh right, well that kind of explains things then. So the best course of action with CC heavy forces is to assault a unit and not wipe it out, so that the unit can't be fired at during the opponents round. You can then mop them up in their own combat phase and move on to the next target in your own turn. Still seems quite effective though.

JMobius

2009-01-15, 12:23 PM

Generic Space Marines question: Just how worthwhile are space marine bikes?

I find myself infatuated with them, for some reason; I've yet to actually play a game employing them, but on paper, they seem quite impressive, particularly those fantastic assault bikes... needless to say, a mounted assault army list seems quite tempting. I'm just worried if they're a trap of some kind.

Winterwind

2009-01-15, 12:29 PM

What do you think of the practice of mixing different Chaos Gods and their respective special troops (such as berzerkers, plague marines etc.) within one army?
There are no restrictions whatsoever regarding that in the current Chaos Marine codex (which, I assume, is meant as compensation for dropping all the daemons), and as Chaos Undivided armies such as the Black Legion are consistently depicted as fielding all kinds of troops, including the special ones, I figured that was alright - not only with regards to rules, but also with regards to fluff, as a mighty Lord, devoted to all four gods alike, might gather followers of all four Dark Brethren under his command.

But yesterday, skimming through some German WH40k forum, I found out there are apparently quite a few people who seem to believe using special troops outside of cult armies (such as the World Eaters or the Death Guard) is very poor taste, and even considering to mix those of different gods together is such a cardinal sin that people who do that should be burnt on a stake, and most definitely never played with. :smallconfused:
Are those just some ultra-hardcore-orthodox lunatics who thrive on the Internet as they couldn't survive in real life, whom I can safely dismiss, or is it me who is misinterpreting the fluff here and mixing the troops of different gods really is kicking the fluff as it lies whimpering on the ground, as they say?

Generic Space Marines question: Just how worthwhile are space marine bikes?

I find myself infatuated with them, for some reason; I've yet to actually play a game employing them, but on paper, they seem quite impressive, particularly those fantastic assault bikes... needless to say, a mounted assault army list seems quite tempting. I'm just worried if they're a trap of some kind.Well, I had a quite similar question in the previous thread regarding Chaos bikes with Nurgle icon, which, I assume, will have somewhat similar properties - the general advice was that, while they can be used to great effect, one has to be careful with them, as they tie up a huge amount of points with comparatively few wounds, and still can engage only one enemy unit per round. So, probably worthwhile, but not in too big units, and not in too small games.

Tren

2009-01-15, 01:01 PM

Are those just some ultra-hardcore-orthodox lunatics who thrive on the Internet as they couldn't survive in real life, whom I can safely dismiss, or is it me who is misinterpreting the fluff here and mixing the troops of different gods really is kicking the fluff as it lies whimpering on the ground, as they say?

Ultra-fluffies like that exist for all armies and will always throw a fit (particularly about special characters), but as more "true" 5th edition codexes come out those kind of people don't have much of a foot to stand. The trend since the Eldar codex has been to remove limitations on special characters and units to essentially allow you to build whatever kind of army you want regardless of fluff. That's just the way the game is changing.

Besides, ultra-fluffies like that tend to be most prominent on the intartubes. If at your FLGS you meet someone who doesn't want to play against a legitimate list then to hell with them, I'm sure there'll be plenty of other people who have no problem.

hamishspence

2009-01-15, 02:00 PM

you know, for at least one army (Black Legion) mixing units is standard.

a World Eaters army backed up by a Slaaneshi sorcerer would be Unusual, but I was never fond of the absolute hatred between deities anyway.

Daemons has trimmed it back to a minimum, so CSM players shouldn't moan if they see a mixed army.

Putting a character or HQ in a squad of a rival power is the only really extreme act of ignoring the rivalry completely- anything short of that is ok in my book and I've been a 40k fan since 2nd ed.

Kharn the Betrayer included in with a squad of Noise Marines would be an example. And you could use the excuse "he's joined the army so when he kills his buddies in frenzy, its more fun"

Erloas

2009-01-15, 02:06 PM

GW has been dropping special limitations like that all over the place. They were originally done for "themed" reasons, but what really ended up happening is that players would only ever take the best theme and never use the rest, so there were a lot of good units that people wanted to use but never would because the other limitations to using them were too great.

The Vampire Counts was a good example, because with the bloodlines people only played Carstein or Blood dragon lists, and while the Lhamian and Strigori vampires were very cool and interesting they did have a few shortcomings which ment no one ever used them.

They decided it is better if people can use what they find interesting and still field a competative list then to keep it fluffy and only ever see 1-2 variations of an army. It leads to a greater diversity of lists which is more interesting and fun for both parties at the table.

Most of the "real" players I run into don't necessarily like the reduction in theme but don't really have a problem with it either. Usually what they don't like is that some combination or special ability they used to live by is no longer there or no longer as practical.

The one thing that is kind of ironic about chaos gods' most devout followers (players) is that they think things should be very orderly and set rules to how chaos is. If anything, I think a chaotic Chaos list is actually more fitting. Sure there is conflict between the various parts of chaos, but that is true of every race, but in the end it always comes down to the Ork's way of doing things (no matter which race you are), the biggest and strongest tell you want to do and you do it or you get clobbered. The way an Ork builds his Waaagh! from different competing Ork tribes isn't really any different then the other races, especially Chaos.

hamishspence

2009-01-15, 02:09 PM

a horde of Daemonettes led by a Bloodthirster- again, odd combo. Still, I don't find it as objectionable as some seem to.

Winterwind

2009-01-15, 02:38 PM

Okay, thanks. Me and my conscience are relieved now. :smallsmile:

Altima

2009-01-15, 05:15 PM

a horde of Daemonettes led by a Bloodthirster- again, odd combo. Still, I don't find it as objectionable as some seem to.

Daemons are different than their mortal followers. There's even a rule in the Daemons codex that characters (such as heralds) cannot join units who have a different Mark of Chaos as they do.

But, really, why wouldn't you want your bloodthirster riding herd with bloodcrushers or bloodletters? And really, what's funniest of all, is that a Keeper of Secrets can take a Bloodthirster in combat. It's awesome.

But yeah, the old cult armies were great, and extremely fluffy. Many chaos players don't like the fact that they took them out. Heck, it was one of the few armies that were mechanically rewarded by being fluffy. An example would be if you had a cult squad of the god's favorite 'number' you automatically received a free champion!

But yeah, feel free to have different types of Chaos warriors in an army. A Chaos Undivided army (Black Legion, Word Bearers) sees Chaos (and not just the four gods) as a pantheon, instead of one god above them all.

Another example would be the World Eaters--they were devastated long ago and now only exist as roving warbands who'll happily join with anyone for the right price.

I wouldn't talk down to people who are fluffy. You can be sure that a game against them will be fun, and not just a beat down of the most efficient/cheesey units someone can jam into their lists.

Winterwind

2009-01-15, 06:00 PM

But yeah, the old cult armies were great, and extremely fluffy. Many chaos players don't like the fact that they took them out. Heck, it was one of the few armies that were mechanically rewarded by being fluffy. An example would be if you had a cult squad of the god's favorite 'number' you automatically received a free champion!Well, I am trying to make my army fluffy - almost all of my squads are in their god's favourite number (and not limited to cult squads, but also including all squads which have icons), the army leader is deliberately kept without mark (to be a proper Chaos Undivided commander), and one of the squads (namely, the Tzeentch Raptors) has its icon rather so all four of the gods are represented in the army than because it would be effective (except, of course, that it allows the squad to be properly big - with any other icon, I would have taken a smaller number).
But it never occured to me that combining cult troops within the same army might be considered unfluffy, if that army was explicitly themed to be Chaos Undivided.

But yeah, feel free to have different types of Chaos warriors in an army. A Chaos Undivided army (Black Legion, Word Bearers) sees Chaos (and not just the four gods) as a pantheon, instead of one god above them all.

Another example would be the World Eaters--they were devastated long ago and now only exist as roving warbands who'll happily join with anyone for the right price.And, of course, it would also be fine to declare one's army a splinter group of any of the big ones or any other such thing to come up with own fluff, colour themes, symbols etc., correct?

I wouldn't talk down to people who are fluffy. You can be sure that a game against them will be fun, and not just a beat down of the most efficient/cheesey units someone can jam into their lists.Oh, I wouldn't dream of such a thing - contrariwise - but there's a difference between being fluffy and being intolerant of all who do not heed their subjective interpretation of the fluff in every detail. :smallwink:

First Speaker

2009-01-15, 06:10 PM

a horde of Daemonettes led by a Bloodthirster- again, odd combo. Still, I don't find it as objectionable as some seem to.

Daemonette cult who have enslaved and tortured a Bloodthirster for kicks, done unspeakable things to it, and drag their prize from battle to battle as a sick trophy?

Tren

2009-01-15, 06:34 PM

I wouldn't talk down to people who are fluffy. You can be sure that a game against them will be fun, and not just a beat down of the most efficient/cheesey units someone can jam into their lists.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that people who run fluffy armies are bad people or inferior gamers. But I've had it suggested to me by an overly fluff concerned player that because I wanted to convert a Prince Yriel model to be the supreme autarch of my Sword Wind army, that I am a scum-sucking degenerate not fit to play the game and that I am in fact ruining the game because Prince Yriel would never be in a Biel Tan army. Delightful. That's just plain not cool, and unfortunately it's a attitude I see a lot of online. There are very vocal people who disparage and insult other people who want to play this competitive game like it were-- ya know-- a competitive game.

And I'm not saying power gamers can't be douche bags too, but for my part the majority of this kind of behavior I see coming from people who're so obsessed with fluff they forgot it was a game, or think because they play an unoptimized/fluffy list they've got some moral high ground. I absolutely respect someone who wants to put together a very fluffy army and create one of their favorite forces from the codex/books/etc. and I understand why it's fun for certain types of gamer. But I think it's immature and annoying when you complain that your unoptomized fluff driven army gets run into the ground by someone who punches in fields an army with the goal of winning.

evil_d4_swarm

2009-01-15, 06:45 PM

Winterwind

2009-01-15, 07:18 PM

Hello again. I think I may have put together a solid list by now... Is it any good?

http://i732.photobucket.com/albums/ww327/evil_d4_swarm/0a784e1a.png

I'm going to be buying another $50 worth of models soon, so I need to know what to get.

Thanks.Not being familiar with Tau, I see some error in that list. You have assigned 12 Kroot Hounds to one squad and 6 Kroot Hounds to another, with identical equipment, yet pay 36 points in both cases. Unless the Tau have some freakin' weird special rules, that can't possibly be right. :smallwink:
(Wow, Kroot Hounds are cheap... :smalleek:)

Otherwise... going by the stats for models and weapons given in the main rulebook alone, that's a list that instills fear in my heart, far more than the previous incarnations of your army. :smalleek:

Myatar_Panwar

2009-01-15, 07:23 PM

I pretty new, but it seems like you have quite the lack of Crysis suits. A couple of HQ sure, but I always thought alot of the power in a tau army came from the versatile battlesuits? I would personally drop a hammerhead and get a squad of suits in there. Either as an attachment to one of your shash'o or as an Elite unit in itself.

Also, I have never really thought of the Cyclic Ion Blaster as worth it. 5 shots sure, but with str 3 you will need typically need a 5 or better to wound (unless you are fighting Eldar or other tau). A Burst cannon offers 3 shots but typically wounds on a 3+. And with a shash'o you hit on a 2+, so you don't have to worry about having a hail of bullets to hit. Only 8 points too. Better imo.

1 more thing, I noticed that both of your Shash'o have weapons with a 18" range. And only 18". Is this wise? Battlesuits are pretty fragile, and keeping at range with missile pods and such is a definite advantage.

Erloas

2009-01-15, 08:01 PM

One thing that always seemed odd to me about "fluffy armies" is that being effective is often considered unfluffy and being one dimensional is often considered fluffy.
The thing about fluff is that it is supposed to be realistic in terms of the race and the setting. The one thing we know about all real armies throughtout history is that whenever possible they tried to be the most effecient they could be and to the best of their ability had what was needed to win. If an army didn't have the siege equipment to take a castle they would either wait until they could get it or make it or they would simply not try to take the castle.
If an army needed calvarly to win and they didn't have any they would avoid contact as long as possible until their calvarly came back (if it were out on some other errand) or do the best they could to change the field of combat so it wasn't as big of a deal.

If a current army general was faced with a situation where an airstrike would be considerably more effective and safer then sending in some infantry and tanks they would get ahold of the airforce and get things worked out. They wouldn't just send in their infantry because they are the army and not the airforce.

Given the nature of 40k I wouldn't see the various races sending out raiding parties and attack forces to various conflicts when those forces are missing units that would be vital their chances of success. Especially for a race such as the Eldar who are supposed to have divination type skills and are a dying race and have to make everything loss they take count. It those conditions it wouldn't make any sense for a farseer to engage the enemy when they are missing components that are vital to their chances of victory. Sure one craftworld might specialize in some aspect of the army, but there isn't anything saying any other units of the army is never to be found there.

What I find the oddest about fluffy lists is in many ways they are also the easiest to make cheesy. Not sure as much about 40k, but in fantasy generally what I consider cheesy is someone taking many of the same units and generally build their army so it ignores every aspect of the army except one very specific one. A skaven army that takes nothing but jezzels and ratling guns, an empire army that takes nothing but handgunners and cannons, a bretonnian army that takes as many pegasus as possible and O&G army that takes as many fantatics as possible, a vampire or tzeentch army that has 23 power dice in 2000 points, etc. They can be of varying degrees of effectiveness, but at least as far as I see it they are cheesy, and generally not that fun to play against if you win or loose. But they are also some of the easiest armies to write a backstory for. Like "My empire army comes from hauchland where they specialize and manufacturer rifles for the rest of the empire" or "My O&G army is a night goblin waaagh" They are easy to come up with a story because they are all the same. They do tend to ignore the fact that no empire general would go to war without some of the various state troopers and there are knightly orders all over the empire, or that bretonnian generals wouldn't take all of a limited resource such as pegasuses and put them all in one spot at one time and deprive other parts of their realm from the utility and protection the pegasuses bring. In most cases a highly themed and generally one dimensional army doesn't make any sense in terms of military logistics, resource management, and preparidness for war.

I find its actually harder to write a good theme and background for a well balanced and diversified amy even though militarily speaking it makes a lot more sense.

edit:
Also, I have never really thought of the Cyclic Ion Blaster as worth it. 5 shots sure, but with str 3 you will need typically need a 5 or better to wound (unless you are fighting Eldar or other tau). A Burst cannon offers 3 shots but typically wounds on a 3+. And with a shash'o you hit on a 2+, so you don't have to worry about having a hail of bullets to hit. Only 8 points too. Better imo. The cyclic ion blaster though is AP1 on a 6 to wound. On average that means 69.4% of the time you will have an AP1 shot that wounds anything up to T6. You will also have a 69.4% chance of a normal AP of the weapon on a T4 enemy. (I don't have the stats to the cyclic ion cannon, its missing from the tau reference sheet, the AP1 part is in the FAQ though) With the burst cannon being AP5 that means most armies are going to get a save against it. You average 2.5 hits a turn even at BS5, against T4 that is 1.6 wounds and against 3+ save thats .54 unsaved wounds. So against MEQ the burst cannon averages .54 unsaved wounds a round and the cyclic ion blaster averages .925 unsaved wounds (.694 unsavable and .231 failed save). So the cyclic ion blaster actually comes out ahead.
Edit again: for the sake of completeness. Against T3 the burst cannon does 2.08 AP5 wounds, the Cyclic Ion Blaster also happens to do 2.08 wounds (again don't know the AP, though .64 is still the chance of being AP1)

evil_d4_swarm

2009-01-15, 09:29 PM

Not being familiar with Tau, I see some error in that list. You have assigned 12 Kroot Hounds to one squad and 6 Kroot Hounds to another, with identical equipment, yet pay 36 points in both cases. Unless the Tau have some freakin' weird special rules, that can't possibly be right. :smallwink:
(Wow, Kroot Hounds are cheap... :smalleek:)

Otherwise... going by the stats for models and weapons given in the main rulebook alone, that's a list that instills fear in my heart, far more than the previous incarnations of your army. :smalleek:

Oops. That should be 6 to a squad...

I pretty new, but it seems like you have quite the lack of Crysis suits. A couple of HQ sure, but I always thought alot of the power in a tau army came from the versatile battlesuits? I would personally drop a hammerhead and get a squad of suits in there. Either as an attachment to one of your shash'o or as an Elite unit in itself.

Also, I have never really thought of the Cyclic Ion Blaster as worth it. 5 shots sure, but with str 3 you will need typically need a 5 or better to wound (unless you are fighting Eldar or other tau). A Burst cannon offers 3 shots but typically wounds on a 3+. And with a shash'o you hit on a 2+, so you don't have to worry about having a hail of bullets to hit. Only 8 points too. Better imo.

1 more thing, I noticed that both of your Shash'o have weapons with a 18" range. And only 18". Is this wise? Battlesuits are pretty fragile, and keeping at range with missile pods and such is a definite advantage.

I could drop a hammerhead for a couple Crisis suits, but that would mean spending an extra $75 plus tax. I only have $50, and I have two hammerheads to begin with. One of the hammerheads can be converted to a Sky Ray, though, if that is smarter.

Altima

2009-01-15, 09:31 PM

-snip-

Well, it's not out of the question for an Undivided force to be led by a warlord who has chosen a patron. And yes, Chaos has been splintered so many times, and has gotten so many new recruits, that it's not out of the question for there to be all kinds of splinters.

After all, those Daemons armies have to be summoned from somewhere.

As for fluff vs. powergamer, well, there's always different interpretations. GW has retconned, rewritten, or torn up the fluff so many times that it's not out of the question for there to be some minor differences between Imperial Forces.

However, finding reasons to shove 20+ assault cannons (in last edition) in your list, finding a way to include Tigirius and Vulkan in your list at the same time, or a Chapter Master leading every combat patrol is not very fluffy...

I suppose I'm just cynical now. I rarely had any 'fun' games, and when I wasn't facing gunliners, I was being greeted to every sort of cheese army from three editions. Ever fought Iron Warriors last edition? NOT FUN.

Annnnnyway, for the Tau player, I've never found Kroot to be worth it for the Tau. Sure, they're better in close combat than fire warriors (which means they're about as good as any other army's basic trooper). It might be better to get rid of both kroot squads, get another fire warrior squad, then get some devilfish. You've got the burst cannons to deal with hordes (and your standard weapons, of course, along with the Fish of Fury) and you've got the railguns to deal with vehicles, but you seem a tad weak in the middle area. I recommend caning your broadsides and going with twin-linked missile pod/flamer or targeting array XV8 suits. They'll shut down transports quickly, they're cheap, and you can get something like five of them for your 3 broadsides. The flamers can also be used to bolster fire against fast troops who may about to charge your lines.

Ash08

2009-01-15, 10:12 PM

I've been experimenting with a few varations of army lists but haven't found anyones I like so far(every single one of them depend HEAVLY on a sinlge 10 member tactical squad in a drop pod). I'll post my entire force and any help with getting things switched around would be nice... Also, although all the models I have are slightly unchangable, I play with a group that is totally cool with bizarre repersentations(one time the Tau player used a squad of Kasirkin as Vespids :smalltongue:). I play mainly against Tau, Tyranids, and Orks in 1,000-2,000 point battles... Thanks in advance!
so here it is:

HQ:
.Captain Alasarius with a combi plasma, artificer armor, hellfire rounds145P
.Chaplain with Jump pack and bolt pistol 120
.Librarian with terminator armor, force weapon, combi plasma 135
Elites:
.5 terminators with an Assault cannon, and 3 chain fists 240
.5 terminators with a cyclone missle launchers 235
.Dreadnought with lascannon, heavyflamer 145
.Dreadnought with multimelta, storm bolter 115
Troops:
.10 member tactical squad with sarg(powerfist, plama pistol) a meltagun and a missle launcher 215 .Drop Pod with DeathWind Launcher 45
.10 member tactical squad with flamer and missle launcher 170
. 5 scouts(3 snipers, one missle launcher, all camo cloaks) 100
.5 scouts, 2 shotguns, 1 bolter, one combat blad/pistol, 1 heavy bolter 85
Various Transports:
.Rhino with storm bolter and extra armor 45
.Razorback with lascannons and hunter-killer missle launcher 85
Fast attack:
.5 member assault squad with 1 flamer, 1 plasma pistol, sarg(power axe and combat shield with bolt pistol 145
.5 vangaurd veterans with relic blade, 2 plasma pistols, 2 power swords and 5 jump packs 245
Heavy Support:
. 8Devastators with 2 lascannons and 2 plasma cannons, a sarg with a plasma pistol and 3 meatshields 225
.8 devastators with 4 heavy bolters, sarg with powerfist, plasma pistol, 3 meatshields 138
Land Raider with 2 a hunter-killer missle 260
Predator with autocannon, 2 lascannons and storm bolter 135
so ends my 3,000+ total :smallbiggrin:

Myatar_Panwar

2009-01-15, 10:39 PM

I could drop a hammerhead for a couple Crisis suits, but that would mean spending an extra $75 plus tax. I only have $50, and I have two hammerheads to begin with. One of the hammerheads can be converted to a Sky Ray, though, if that is smarter.

Well, unless you are really committed to paying full price, there are alternatives. For instance, TheWarStore (http://www.thewarstore.net/) has all GW products for 20% off all the time. There is also MiniWarGaming (http://www.miniwargaming.com/) which sells stuff for 10% off (also is quite a bit easier to use, you have to go through mail/phone order on the warstore). Also, there is always eBay (http://toys.shop.ebay.com/items/Tau__W0QQ_sacatZ44123). I just got a Battlesuit Commander, an Ethereal, and a normal Crysis suit for 40 bucks off of eBay (from GW it would be what, 75 bucks?).

Also, if I'm not mistaken, 3 crysis suits would be 60, unless its more expensive where you live for some reason.

And I retract my statement about the Ion Blasters suck. Erloas is right. In general, it is better. I guess I'm just against it because most of the people I play against around here are Orks and Nids. :smalltongue:

Erloas

2009-01-15, 10:52 PM

As for fluff vs. powergamer, well, there's always different interpretations. GW has retconned, rewritten, or torn up the fluff so many times that it's not out of the question for there to be some minor differences between Imperial Forces.

However, finding reasons to shove 20+ assault cannons (in last edition) in your list, finding a way to include Tigirius and Vulkan in your list at the same time, or a Chapter Master leading every combat patrol is not very fluffy...
Well the question of what is powergaming compared to what is effective seems to vary greatly from person to person. But for me I would agree that your examples are cheesy based on my definition of someone trying to make their army as overwhelmingly stacked into one idea/unit as possible. I haven't faced anything bad in 40k yet, but thats just from not playing it much, and given the type of players locally I probably won't face that sort of thing much.

The biggest thing about the one dimensional armies is that you either have what you need to beat them then its usually easy to beat them and no fun because its one sides for you, or you don't have what you need to beat them and its no fun because its entirely one sided for them.

Of course to some people even if it doesn't fit GW written fluff, so long as the person comes up with a back-story for the army they consider it fluffy. Then you just have to claim your army comes from a planet with an autocannon manufacturing plant and they are delievering the autocannons along with troop movement and then they get stranded on some planet or forced into a conflict and all they have for weapons is autocannons and maybe a few other things they were transporting. To some people that would be a more fluffy army then a well rounded and balanced force that someone didn't have a story for. Which is what I don't like about some "fluff" requirements for armies in things like tournements.

Of course with some armies like Chaos, that sort of thing is what people expect for a fluffy army. I'm not quite sure how things worked in 40k chaos before, but with fantasy having an "all of one god" army tended to be very one dimensional and cheesy. It was those khorne lists where everything had the mark of khorne which gave frenzy (extra attacks and immune to psychology) and magic resistance and extra dispel dice that were cheezy and very fluffy. Or change to tzeentch and its the same thing except everything can cast magic and you have more power dice then anyone can hope to stop.
In those cases having a fluffy list also lead to having a cheesy list.

So long as the enemy has a diversity of units I generally have no problem with the list in terms of being cheesy even if I can't beat it.

Annnnnyway, for the Tau player, I've never found Kroot to be worth it for the Tau. Sure, they're better in close combat than fire warriors (which means they're about as good as any other army's basic trooper).
Isn't the point of kroot that they are a cheap unit that tau use to throw infront of the enemy to slow them down for another round or two of shooting? If you take the two units and move them up as close as you can to the enemy you can slow them a fair amount. If you can get within a few inches and then get charged they move a few inches into the kroot and at best consolidate an extra 3 inches forward, as opposed to their normal movement and run which would be 9-10inches forward instead. With a round of rapid fire they should do a bit of damage too. It also tends to break up their line by having some units getting farther ahead and the unit stuck in combat getting back a bit farther, giving you more time to concentrate on fewer units. Or if you can get the assault and have a reasonable chance of surviving the first round to tie them down at least into their turn, same effect but slows them down a bit more. If they can happen to kill a few in that time then all the better.

Although at 106 points for the unit compared to 110-140 points for the units they are protecting they are probably a bit expensive for that task. If the aformentioned is the task they are given though I think they could do it just as well without the hounds which between both sets of hounds would give another unit of 10.

As for the list... why do you have the pulse carbine unit in the transport? (assuming this reference sheet isn't in need of a errata as well...) Being 18" range and assault they should be able to shoot someone in most games on the first turn (spearhead or DoW deployments at least, or pitched battle if their are scouts or infiltrators that didn't outflank). Also being assualt they can keep up full rate of fire even while moving to whatever location they want to be at.
The pulse rifles however are much better at close range, the sort of time when you drop them out of the transport, let them open fire, then load back up and move. They would also be better at holding an objective in a building or cover because it will slow down most things trying to get to them enough that they get at least 1, maybe 2 rounds of rapid fire before they are engaged.

Of course there might be something I'm missing since I don't know tau very well, such as some special rule(s). Given the basic information about their weapon choices though thats what I see.

Oracle_Hunter

2009-01-15, 11:34 PM

The biggest thing about the one dimensional armies is that you either have what you need to beat them then its usually easy to beat them and no fun because its one sides for you, or you don't have what you need to beat them and its no fun because its entirely one sided for them.

This is very true; fortunately people generally don't field such armies because they almost always fail against a decently diversified force.

As for 40K Chaos: it was in fact common, back in 2nd Edition, for Chaos to field armies under one God only. The idea is that you have Traitor Legions devoted to individual gods, and so they are the ones who come out and kill things. At the time "Chaos Undivided" didn't exist IIRC.

Now, you kids haven't seen a really beardy 40K army because the army list requirements that started in 3rd made it impossible to field the worst kind of cheese. Back in 2nd you'd have Eldar Armies made up entirely of Aspect Warriors and Space Marines which were nothing but Land Raiders. Those were crazy! Now, the "fluff" aspect of army building is hard-coded into the rules: you have to field "troops" and Elite units are rare.

IIRC, Chaos players are the most fluff-crazy in 40K; Ork players are the most generally crazy. Among Eldar players you occasionally have folks trying to field Craftworld Armies which are fluffy - though I've yet to see a Saim-Haim army that made a lick of sense - but the most fluff I've seen out of IG, SM, or Tau is in paint scheme. I mean, how many Tau do you see that actually field Ethereals, even though those guys are supposed to be running things?

Killersquid

2009-01-16, 01:34 AM

Well, unless you are really committed to paying full price, there are alternatives. For instance, TheWarStore (http://www.thewarstore.net/) has all GW products for 20% off all the time. There is also MiniWarGaming (http://www.miniwargaming.com/) which sells stuff for 10% off (also is quite a bit easier to use, you have to go through mail/phone order on the warstore).

Umm...those prices for the minis are actually higher than the ones at my local GW and the GW site, even after the price cut they give Why is that?

Ork players are the most generally crazy.

:smallannoyed:

Myatar_Panwar

2009-01-16, 01:56 AM

Um, can you give an example? Is it all of them? I noticed that a few choice items on MiniWarGaming is the same price or close to, but the list givin' on TheWarStore is all 20% off. Also make sure that with MiniWarGaming you are looking at the correct price (they show a Canadian dollar count and a US count).

Edit: And frankly, I find Kroot pretty ehh. At least in my experience. In the first few games I've played in, my squad of 10 Kroot and 3 hounds were obliterated by Ork shootas (squad of 10) at first contact. 1 round of shooting, and each time I lost about 50% of them and they were sent packing. Now, this was mostly due to some decent rolls by my Ork opponent, but the fact that Kroot toughness is the same as a firewarrior, and that they have no armor save, it makes them very vulnerable targets. The fact that they are only 3 points less than a firewarrior, makes them pretty ehhhh in my mind.

Though I'm sure theres a way to play them right, probably mostly used for assaulting from cover to keep foes locked in combat while all the shooty goes on outside.

Eldan

2009-01-16, 02:08 AM

I have tried to build Saim-Hann armies, it's difficult to make them useful. There are just things you can't efficiently take down with bikes and vypers.

Killersquid

2009-01-16, 02:12 AM

Myatar_Panwar

2009-01-16, 02:17 AM

Yeah ok. I probably shouldn't have said 10% on MiniWarGaming. I saw that somewhere, but they really are everywhere with their prices. They do have some neat stuff on there though, including these magnets (http://store.miniwargaming.com/product/disc-magnet-small-troop-size.html). So awesome. I will never have to glue weapon attachments on my battlesuits again!

Killersquid

2009-01-16, 02:25 AM

Oracle_Hunter

2009-01-16, 02:34 AM

I have tried to build Saim-Hann armies, it's difficult to make them useful. There are just things you can't efficiently take down with bikes and vypers.

The worst part is that Saim-Hann armies are supposed to be full of CC dudes on jetbikes, but the CC rules have never made that a good idea. Also, Vypers are rarely a good idea since 2nd; they die waaay too easy.

@Killersquid - :smallconfused:

Eldan

2009-01-16, 02:40 AM

Killersquid

2009-01-16, 02:47 AM

The worst part is that Saim-Hann armies are supposed to be full of CC dudes on jetbikes, but the CC rules have never made that a good idea. Also, Vypers are rarely a good idea since 2nd; they die waaay too easy.

@Killersquid - :smallconfused:

Ork players are the most generally crazy.

Take a wild guess.:smallamused::smallbiggrin:

Oracle_Hunter

2009-01-16, 02:58 AM

Hmm. I've actually never seen the stats for the wild riders, were they any useful?
Someone should perhaps make a new unit of close combat bikes for them, if they should ever revive craftworld army lists.

Yes there were stats (3rd Edition Craftworld Eldar Codex) and they were terrible.

Your command squad could have a Wild Rider Chief (who can be upgraded to have a power weapon) and up to 10 Kinsmen (Guardians with WS4, and no power weapons). They all had S3 and IIRC the 3rd edition rules only allowed skimmer-mounted units to make 1 CC attack per round. :smallannoyed:

EDIT:
@Killersquid - At every GW convention I've gone to, you could always pick out the Ork players by sight. They had the most outrageous facial hair, the most... eccentric... clothing, and were always hovering around some table shouting WAAAAAAAAAAAAGH to encourage a fellow Ork player.

They're quite charming, really :smalltongue:

Killersquid

2009-01-16, 03:03 AM

@Killersquid - At every GW convention I've gone to, you could always pick out the Ork players by sight. They had the most outrageous facial hair, the most... eccentric... clothing, and were always hovering around some table shouting WAAAAAAAAAAAAGH to encourage a fellow Ork player.

They're quite charming, really :smalltongue:

That is hilarious. I look very normal.

Oracle_Hunter

2009-01-16, 03:13 AM

That is hilarious. I look very normal.

Then you must be doing it wrong :smalltongue:

Ka'ladun

2009-01-16, 04:27 AM

I'm a newcomer to the hobby and at the moment, just have the Assult on Black Reach basic set. I've gotten used to this and painted all the miniatures, and want to expand. For the record, the set contains:
1 Space Marine Captain
1 Dreadnought
5 Terminators
10 Space Marines (tactical squad)
20 Ork Boyz
5 Ork Nobz
3 Deffkoptas
and 1 Ork Warboss.

Of the lot, I think I want to expand the Ork army first (they're better to paint and yelling WAAAGH! is just plain fun). What's a good direction to go from here?
I'm open to suggestions for the marines as well.

banjo1985

2009-01-16, 04:54 AM

The Black Reach box gives you a decent starting point for an Ork force, but it lacks some dakka.

For Orks I'd recommend some trukks to get the boyz into assault range quicker, and bikes for the same reason, and that the new kit is very nice. You need something to take out enemy tanks too, maybe some Tankbusta's. Burna Boyz will make a mess of weak infantry, and you could do with at least another 20 Boyz for numbers. Gretchin are also a good option. Sure they're weak, and will run for the hills when a few die, but they're the only thing in the Ork army that has BS3 and tend to be ignored for better targets. A group of 20 grots opening fire on anything short of marines will cause a surprising amount of damage.

One of the Ork's best strengths is numbers. Only Tyranids and Guard have a hope of fielding as many troops as Orks can. The green tide can wash away a lot of forces purely by very superior numbers. I used to play Orks a long time ago, and its nice to be able to deploy your troops and see you outnumber your enemy by 3:1. :smallbiggrin:

Killersquid

2009-01-16, 05:01 AM

The Black Reach box gives you a decent starting point for an Ork force, but it lacks some dakka.

For Orks I'd recommend some trukks to get the boyz into assault range quicker, and bikes for the same reason, and that the new kit is very nice. You need something to take out enemy tanks too, maybe some Tankbusta's. Burna Boyz will make a mess of weak infantry, and you could do with at least another 20 Boyz for numbers. Gretchin are also a good option. Sure they're week, and will run for the hills when a few die, but they're the only thing in the Ork army that has BS3 and tend to be ignored for better targets. A group of 20 grots opening fire on anything short of marines will cause a surprising amount of damage.

One of the Ork's best strengths is numbers. Only Tyranids and Guard have a hope of fielding as many troops as Orks can. The green tide can wash away a lot of forces purely by very superior numbers. I used to play Orks a long time ago, and its nice to be able to deploy your troops and see you outnumber your enemy by 3:1. :smallbiggrin:

Gotta disagree with you and tankbustas. A small unit of deffkoptas with rokkits and buzzsaws can drop tanks like no problem, and are not compelled to fire at 1 unit the whole game, and Nob Bikers...just...nob bikers...

banjo1985

2009-01-16, 05:10 AM

You're probably right, I don't have any experience of Deffkopta's so I don't really know what they're good for. A Big Mek with a Kustom Forcefield could also be a good buy. I believe they give some kind of invulnerable save to Boyz within a certain range. This is nice, as most of your grunts won't get a save against anything.

Killersquid

2009-01-16, 05:19 AM

You're probably right, I don't have any experience of Deffkopta's so I don't really know what they're good for.

They're quite fragile, but devastating. You either target them and let boyz get close, or don't and let them rip you a new one. They can turbo boost on the scout phase, then do it AGAIN their next movement phase, practically getting into an assault by second turn (or 1st turn and get a shot off). They can assault a unit and then use Hit and Run to run away as far as possible, ensuring they always assault and get the furious charge and charge benefits. Very good models.

Winterwind

2009-01-16, 08:01 AM

Well, it's not out of the question for an Undivided force to be led by a warlord who has chosen a patron. And yes, Chaos has been splintered so many times, and has gotten so many new recruits, that it's not out of the question for there to be all kinds of splinters.

After all, those Daemons armies have to be summoned from somewhere.

As for fluff vs. powergamer, well, there's always different interpretations. GW has retconned, rewritten, or torn up the fluff so many times that it's not out of the question for there to be some minor differences between Imperial Forces.Well, then, I hope my interpretation of the fluff is reasonable enough for everyone I ever end up playing with to let it pass. :smallcool:

However, finding reasons to shove 20+ assault cannons (in last edition) in your list, finding a way to include Tigirius and Vulkan in your list at the same time, or a Chapter Master leading every combat patrol is not very fluffy...What's so bad about so many assault cannons? Or rather, why would anyone want to do that in the first place? Why not get diversified equipment and have troops that are always more effective at their respective function?
I must admit that assault cannons, of all weapons, are the one of which I never quite saw the use of; for just about every purpose, there is a weapon that is way better than them. Sure, they are good at almost everything, but I'd much rather have each of my units excel at what it's supposed to be doing rather than be okay at everything. Plus, they make the entire army immobile; the issues this would cause in the current edition aside, where's the fun in that?

I suppose I'm just cynical now. I rarely had any 'fun' games, and when I wasn't facing gunliners, I was being greeted to every sort of cheese army from three editions. Ever fought Iron Warriors last edition? NOT FUN.I keep hearing that... what was so bad about them? I seem to remember reading something about having one more Heavy Support choice than normal? Is that so critical?
Of course, judging by what I keep reading, many players seem to believe Heavy Support is vastly superior to everything else in the game... I never got that impression, haven't used up my default three Support Choices yet, and even if Support really was slightly better than the rest, I'd still much rather invest into more diversified troops or Fast Attack for more tactical potential than stuff that just stays stationary and keeps firing every round.

As for 40K Chaos: it was in fact common, back in 2nd Edition, for Chaos to field armies under one God only. The idea is that you have Traitor Legions devoted to individual gods, and so they are the ones who come out and kill things. At the time "Chaos Undivided" didn't exist IIRC.So, those people who feel such hatred towards mixed Chaos armies are likely using an outdated version of fluff?

Now, you kids haven't seen a really beardy 40K army because the army list requirements that started in 3rd made it impossible to field the worst kind of cheese. Back in 2nd you'd have Eldar Armies made up entirely of Aspect Warriors and Space Marines which were nothing but Land Raiders. Those were crazy! Now, the "fluff" aspect of army building is hard-coded into the rules: you have to field "troops" and Elite units are rare.Wow, but all Land Raiders sure is risky. :smalleek:
They will likely have problems killing their points worth, and as soon as the first units with meltas reach them, they will begin dropping like flies.
Not to mention, booo-riiiing... :smalltongue:

The worst part is that Saim-Hann armies are supposed to be full of CC dudes on jetbikes, but the CC rules have never made that a good idea. Also, Vypers are rarely a good idea since 2nd; they die waaay too easy.Unless I'm forgetting some special rule for jetbikes that does not apply to normal bikes or you are referring to Eldar jetbikes only which have some other disadvantages I'm not aware of, why should CC bikes be a bad idea? :smallconfused:
They are tougher than normal warriors and have it far easier to get into CC quickly, not to mention to get into CC with those of the enemy units which are meant for anything but getting into CC...

Eldan

2009-01-16, 08:04 AM

Yeah, actually, Eldar bikers aren't that bad in CC. Ask Lorn, I beat up a squad of guardsmen with 3 bikes. (Okay, and a lot of shooting).
The Eldar's usually horrible Strenght, and quite bad WS3, but they have pistols, T4 and 3+ armor, which means they can actually get hit and not die.

By the way, anyone up for a game of Vassal40k this weekend?

Zorg

2009-01-16, 09:01 AM

Wow, but all Land Raiders sure is risky. :smalleek:
They will likely have problems killing their points worth, and as soon as the first units with meltas reach them, they will begin dropping like flies.
Not to mention, booo-riiiing... :smalltongue:

But Land Raiders in 2nd Ed were basically god - they could move, fire all their weapons at different targets and were generally indestructable. The biggest problem was when they didn't make a LR kit for several years.

I remember quite fondly fieldign three land raiders in one battle - good times :)

As for 40K Chaos: it was in fact common, back in 2nd Edition, for Chaos to field armies under one God only. The idea is that you have Traitor Legions devoted to individual gods, and so they are the ones who come out and kill things. At the time "Chaos Undivided" didn't exist IIRC.

Alpha Legion, World Bearers, Iron Legion, Night Lords, Black Legion all worshipped undivided. They just weren't really fleshed out as much as the 'big four' legions.

Now, you kids haven't seen a really beardy 40K army because the army list requirements that started in 3rd made it impossible to field the worst kind of cheese. Back in 2nd you'd have Eldar Armies made up entirely of Aspect Warriors and Space Marines which were nothing but Land Raiders. Those were crazy! Now, the "fluff" aspect of army building is hard-coded into the rules: you have to field "troops" and Elite units are rare.

Well you can still field 100% aspect warrior armies, and get four LRs in a marine army now. 2nd Ed still had maximum percentages of unit composition

IIRC, Chaos players are the most fluff-crazy in 40K; Ork players are the most generally crazy. Among Eldar players you occasionally have folks trying to field Craftworld Armies which are fluffy - though I've yet to see a Saim-Haim army that made a lick of sense - but the most fluff I've seen out of IG, SM, or Tau is in paint scheme. I mean, how many Tau do you see that actually field Ethereals, even though those guys are supposed to be running things?

I've seen very very fluffy Marines and IG armies, and alot of generic chaos and eldar. I really need to get around to writing up my stuff for my marines to proove my point :smalltongue: But yeah, the Tau backstory doesn't really lend itself to much custom fluff. And etherals are commanding - from their command bunker many miles behind the front line ;)

Eldan

2009-01-16, 09:14 AM

My Eldar army is more or less Alaitoc... lots of Rangers and Harlequin, and I even have the same colour scheme, though I didn't know it at the time.

Erloas

2009-01-16, 10:34 AM

As for magnets, I found K&J Magnetics (http://kjmagnetics.com/products.asp?cat=10) to be a very good place to get magnets. They have a very wide selection of sizes, they are as cheap as anything I found on ebay (about 55% cheaper then what miniwargames has them listed at) and they have decent shipping prices. They got them shipped very quickly too. Right now I have as much of my army as is practical magneted up for various weapons.

To go back to the kroot, they don't have the I or Sv to stand up to any CC unit of any other army, and they don't have the survivability to close with virtually any shooty units (even 10 guards with nothing but lasguns will kill 2.5 a turn at range and 5 a turn with rapid fire) so without a transport or the ability to outflank or deepstrike they have no real chance of causing shooty units any real trouble. The only use I see for them is to try and shape the battlefield and force your opponents actions as much as possible. They are of course going to die in the process, its just a matter of what you gain from their deaths. I think that with rapid fire and str4 shots they are almost as dangerous at close range as they are in combat (since I doesn't come into play at range). Since they are fairly likely to run at the first morale test they need to be put in a place where they preform most of their task before taking many wounds. The size of the unit is also not that important because a few more models doesn't really mean much.
I think the biggest issue with their use is that many Tau lists seem to just stand around and shoot as much as possible and hope enough is dead before it gets close. Shaping the battlefield and forcing your opponents movements however only becomes relivent when you have the situational firepower and movement to take advantage of it. If you aren't moving to take advantage of the opportunties the kroot can create then there is little point in them being there.

@Winterwind and the assault cannons, the only thing about the assault cannons is that they are the only heavy weapon the IG have that have more then 1 shot and can still pose a threat to most vehicles head on since you aren't going to be moving to get to the sides and rear of the vehicles when the multi-laser's str6 shots are very dangerous. So with 40 shots at str7, even AV12 front vehicles (which seem to be the most common) are going to be taking a lot of pens and glances. Its also enough to insta-death characters from several armies. It would definately be an army that is very good against certain opponents and just get wasted by others.

As for the eldar jetbikes, they don't have pistols anymore, so they don't get an extra handweapon attack. In fantasy models that are mounted don't get the extra attack from two hand-weapons, only when on foot, so I would assume that if they used to have a pistol and hand-weapon that 40k also had that rule where you only got the extra attack when not mounted.
Right now the normal jetbikes really can't do anything in CC, except wait around to die. The shining spears are good on the charge with their lances and can get hit-and-run which makes them dangerous, but I haven't run the numbers to see really what they are viably dangerous against.

Winterwind

2009-01-16, 01:22 PM

But Land Raiders in 2nd Ed were basically god - they could move, fire all their weapons at different targets and were generally indestructable. The biggest problem was when they didn't make a LR kit for several years.Oh, I see.
Wow, different targets... :smalleek:

I remember quite fondly fieldign three land raiders in one battle - good times :)Well, that's still possible - not necessarily practical, but most definitely possible. :smallwink:

To go back to the kroot, they don't have the I or Sv to stand up to any CC unit of any other army, and they don't have the survivability to close with virtually any shooty units (even 10 guards with nothing but lasguns will kill 2.5 a turn at range and 5 a turn with rapid fire) so without a transport or the ability to outflank or deepstrike they have no real chance of causing shooty units any real trouble. The only use I see for them is to try and shape the battlefield and force your opponents actions as much as possible. They are of course going to die in the process, its just a matter of what you gain from their deaths. I think that with rapid fire and str4 shots they are almost as dangerous at close range as they are in combat (since I doesn't come into play at range). Since they are fairly likely to run at the first morale test they need to be put in a place where they preform most of their task before taking many wounds. The size of the unit is also not that important because a few more models doesn't really mean much.
I think the biggest issue with their use is that many Tau lists seem to just stand around and shoot as much as possible and hope enough is dead before it gets close. Shaping the battlefield and forcing your opponents movements however only becomes relivent when you have the situational firepower and movement to take advantage of it. If you aren't moving to take advantage of the opportunties the kroot can create then there is little point in them being there.Well, I just checked the numbers a bit, and this time, I have to disagree... the Kroot fare fairly well, at least if they get the assault.
Let's take that unit of 10 Kroot and 12 Kroot Hounds (I know evil_d4_swarm wants to use only 6 Hounds, but that leads to half dead marines on average, and after a day of work I don't feel like complicating the math :smalltongue: , and besides, it gets the unit's cost slightly closer to that of their opponents (though they still remain cheaper)). Let's send it once against a full TacSquad of loyalist Space Marines, with a Sergeant with Powerfist, and once against a squad of 8 Khornate Berzerkers with a Skull Champion, again with Powerfist (the former, I assume, a realistic unit, of course with some special weaponry that we don't have to take into account in CC, the latter a unit I intend to use myself).

With I5, the Kroot Hounds go first - with assault, that's 3 attacks per Hound (36 attacks), against both units hitting on 4+ (18 hits), wounding on 4+ (9 wounds), saved on 3+ (3 unsaved wounds).
Of the Space Marines, 7 are left standing, one bearing a powerfist, so 6 attacks now. Those hit on 4+ (3 hits), wound on 3+ (2 wounds) and there is no save. Two Hounds die.
With the Berzerkers, 5 would be still standing, one with the powerfist, 3 attacks per Berzerker, so 12 attacks for now, hitting on 3+ (8 hits), wounding on 3+ (5.33). Five Hounds die.
Next come the Kroot - ten of them, two attacks thanks to assault, equal chances to hit, wound and not save as before, that's 3.33 dead opponents again.
Last comes the Sergeant/Champion; the Sergeant has 2 attacks which hit on a 4+ and wound on a 2+, that's on average one dead Hound, the Champion has 4 attacks which hit on a 3+, that's 2.22 dead Hounds.

Result? Against the TacSquad, the Kroot have lost three models and killed six, winning the CC and decimating the squad, against the Berzerkers they lost seven models and killed six again, they lose the CC, but only two Berzerkers are left standing. And this Berzerker unit costs a lot more than the Kroot.

In either case, I would say this was very much worth it.

If they don't get the assault, they will lose to the Space Marines and die horribly to the Berzerkers though.

@Winterwind and the assault cannons, the only thing about the assault cannons is that they are the only heavy weapon the IG have that have more then 1 shot and can still pose a threat to most vehicles head on since you aren't going to be moving to get to the sides and rear of the vehicles when the multi-laser's str6 shots are very dangerous. So with 40 shots at str7, even AV12 front vehicles (which seem to be the most common) are going to be taking a lot of pens and glances. Its also enough to insta-death characters from several armies. It would definately be an army that is very good against certain opponents and just get wasted by others.Oh, I see. I guess that's something that loses a lot of its horror when you know that two thirds of those shots will bounce off harmlessly of even your most basic troops' armour. :smalltongue:

The Sandman

2009-01-16, 01:58 PM

As long as people are a) posting lists and b) giving advice for Tau players, I'll put my list up for your perusal.

1500pt Tau Cadre

HQ: Shas'el(50) w/ CIB(15), AFP(20), HW MT(5), TA(10), HWDC(0), 2 SDrones(30), bk(5), Stims(10): 145 [have]
Troops 1: FW Pulse Rifle Squad of 11 Shas'la(110), 1 Shas'ui(20) w/bk(5), ML, Devilfish(80) w/DP(5), MT(10), TA(5), FD(10), 1 SM: 255 [have FW and Fish]
Troops 2: FW Pulse Rifle Squad of 11 Shas'la(110), 1 Shas'ui(20) w/bk(5), ML, Devilfish(80) w/DP(5), MT(10), TA(5), FD(10), 1 SM: 255 [have FW and Fish]
Troops 3: FW Pulse Rifle Squad of 11 Shas'la(110), 1 Shas'ui(20) w/bk(5), ML, Devilfish(80) w/DP(5), MT(10), TA(5), FD(10), 1 SM: 255 [have Fish]
Heavy Support 1: Hammerhead(90) w/railgun(50), SMS(20), TA(0), MT(10), DP(5), TL(5), 1 SM: 190 [have]
Elites 1: Crisis Team of 1 Shas'ui(25) w/TA(10), TL MP(18), 1 Shas'ui(25)w/PR(20), MP(12), MT(5), 1 Shas'ui TL (30) w bk(5), MT(5), PR(20), MP(12): 187 [have]
Elites 2: Stealth Team of 2 Shas'ui(60) each w/DC(0), MDrone (60), Shas'ui TL(35) w/bk(5), HWDC(0), MDrone(30), Markerlight(10), HWMT(5), HW BSfilter(3): 208 [have]

Total: 1495(5)

************************************

2000pt Tau Cadre

HQ: Shas'el(50) w/ CIB(15), AFP(20), HW MT(5), TA(10), HWDC(0), 2 SDrones(30), bk(5), Stims(10): 145 [have]
Troops 1: FW Pulse Rifle Squad of 11 Shas'la(110), 1 Shas'ui(20) w/bk(5), ML, Devilfish(80) w/DP(5), MT(10), TA(5), FD(10), 1 SM: 255 [have FW and Fish]
Troops 2: FW Pulse Rifle Squad of 11 Shas'la(110), 1 Shas'ui(20) w/bk(5), ML, Devilfish(80) w/DP(5), MT(10), TA(5), FD(10), 1 SM: 255 [have FW and Fish]
Troops 3: FW Pulse Rifle Squad of 11 Shas'la(110), 1 Shas'ui(20) w/bk(5), ML, Devilfish(80) w/DP(5), MT(10), TA(5), FD(10), 1 SM: 255 [have Fish]
Troops 4: FW Pulse Rifle Squad of 11 Shas'la(110), 1 Shas'ui(20) w/bk(5), ML, Devilfish(80) w/DP(5), MT(10), TA(5), FD(10), 1 SM: 255
Heavy Support 1: Hammerhead(90) w/railgun(50), SMS(20), TA(0), MT(10), DP(5), TL(5), 1 SM: 190 [have]
Heavy Support 2: Broadside Team of 3 Broadside(210) w/ASS(30), one of them TL(5) w/bk(5): 250
Elites 1: Crisis Team of 1 Shas'ui(25) w/TA(10), TL MP(18), 1 Shas'ui(25)w/PR(20), MP(12), MT(5), 1 Shas'ui TL (30) w bk(5), MT(5), PR(20), MP(12): 187 [have]
Elites 2: Stealth Team of 2 Shas'ui(60) each w/DC(0), MDrone (60), Shas'ui TL(35) w/bk(5), HWDC(0), MDrone(30), Markerlight(10), HWMT(5), HW BSfilter(3): 208 [have]

Total: 2000(0)

*************************************

2500pt Tau Cadre

HQ: Shas'el(50) w/ CIB(15), AFP(20), HW MT(5), TA(10), HWDC(0), 2 SDrones(30), bk(5), Stims(10), 2 Shas'vre Bodyguard (70) w/ TL BC (24), TA (20): 264 [have Shas'el]
Troops 1: FW Pulse Rifle Squad of 11 Shas'la(110), 1 Shas'ui(20) w/bk(5), ML, Devilfish(80) w/DP(5), MT(10), TA(5), FD(10), 1 SM(10): 255 [have FW and Fish]
Troops 2: FW Pulse Rifle Squad of 11 Shas'la(110), 1 Shas'ui(20) w/bk(5), ML, Devilfish(80) w/DP(5), MT(10), TA(5), FD(10), 1 SM(10): 255 [have FW and Fish]
Troops 3: FW Pulse Rifle Squad of 11 Shas'la(110), 1 Shas'ui(20) w/bk(5), ML, Devilfish(80) w/DP(5), MT(10), TA(5), FD(10), 1 SM(10): 255 [have Fish]
Troops 4: FW Pulse Rifle Squad of 11 Shas'la(110), 1 Shas'ui(20) w/bk(5), ML, Devilfish(80) w/DP(5), MT(10), TA(5), FD(10), 1 SM(10): 255
Heavy Support 1: Hammerhead(90) w/railgun(50), SMS(20), TA(0), MT(10), DP(5), TL(5): 180 [have]
Heavy Support 2: Broadside Team of 2 Broadside(140) w/ASS(20), one of them TL(5) w/bk(5), HWMT(5), TL PR(10), HWDC(0), 2 SDrones(30): 215
Heavy Support 3: Broadside Team of 2 Broadside(140) w/ASS(20), one of them TL(5) w/bk(5), HWMT(5), TL PR(10), HWDC(0), 2 SDrones(30): 215
Elites 1: Crisis Team of 1 Shas'ui(25) w/TA(10), TL MP(18), 1 Shas'ui(25)w/PR(20), MP(12), MT(5), 1 Shas'ui TL (30) w bk(5), MT(5), PR(20), MP(12): 187 [have]
Elites 2: Stealth Team of 2 Shas'ui(60) each w/DC(0), MDrone (60), Shas'ui TL(35) w/bk(5), HWDC(0), MDrone(30), Markerlight(10), HWMT(5), HW BSfilter(3): 208 [have]
Elites 3: Stealth Team of 2 Shas'ui(60) each w/DC(0), MDrone (60), Shas'ui TL(35) w/bk(5), HWDC(0), MDrone(30), Markerlight(10), HWMT(5), HW BSfilter(3): 208

Total: 2497(3)

I personally think that the 2500pt list is the most balanced of these, but please tell me what you all think.

Ghal Marak

2009-01-16, 02:03 PM

It's funny that a conversation about mono-facited armies sprung up just as I discovered that its possible to field a sniper army. :smallbiggrin: Space Marines of course. Two full squads of Scouts with camo cloaks, a couple of Dreadnaughts (I was eyeing that Ironclad, and I love how you can give a Venerable two TLAutocannons/Lascannons) and the Vindicare Assassain from the Daemonhunters as an ally. Not the best of armies, but it can easily kill tougher opponents (like C'tan and T7 Carnifex). The Vindicare can easily pick off the troublesome stuff like models with heavy weapons, and is pretty decent in CC. I haven't done the points calculations yet, but reguardless it would be a very fun army to play. Not so much to play against though. :smallamused:

And I've got yet another question! :smallsmile: And Eversor Assassain has both a Power Weapon and the Neuro-Gauntlet (which counts as a close combat weapon). What I am wandering is, does he get the +1A for two close combat weapons? And how does that work in close combat? Do his all his attacks ignore armor, or do you have to declare he is focusing on using the power weapon or NG?

Tren

2009-01-16, 02:18 PM

And I've got yet another question! :smallsmile: And Eversor Assassain has both a Power Weapon and the Neuro-Gauntlet (which counts as a close combat weapon). What I am wandering is, does he get the +1A for two close combat weapons? And how does that work in close combat? Do his all his attacks ignore armor, or do you have to declare he is focusing on using the power weapon or NG?

As they're two different special weapons, you have to declare which one you're using and you do not gain the 1+ attack from having two CC weapons. Though in my interpretation, if you had a regular CCW or pistol in addition to the two special weapons you mentioned you could use that and gain the 1+.

Selrahc

2009-01-16, 02:26 PM

Ghal Marak

2009-01-16, 02:27 PM

As they're two different special weapons, you have to declare which one you're using and you do not gain the 1+ attack from having two CC weapons. Though in my interpretation, if you had a regular CCW or pistol in addition to the two special weapons you mentioned you could use that and gain the 1+.

Ah yes, I forgot he had the Exicutioners Pistol (Combi-Bolt pistol/Needle pistol). So he would get the 1+ attack for the pistol, but I have to declare which weapon he is using in close combat. Alright, that makes sense. Thanks Tren.

EDIT- Ninja'd! :smallsmile:

Erloas

2009-01-16, 03:23 PM

Result? Against the TacSquad, the Kroot have lost three models and killed six, winning the CC and decimating the squad, against the Berzerkers they lost seven models and killed six again, they lose the CC, but only two Berzerkers are left standing. And this Berzerker unit costs a lot more than the Kroot.

In either case, I would say this was very much worth it.

If they don't get the assault, they will lose to the Space Marines and die horribly to the Berzerkers though.

Well I didn't run the numbers on them, maybe I should have. However, how would the numbers change if the Marines decided to take a round of shooting with their bolters or pistols into the kroot before the kroot close range? Also how do the numbers change if the Marine player, knowing the hounds have already attacked, decide to kill the kroot instead of the hounds since that reduced the attacks back and the chance to hit, wound, and kill the models is the same?

The other question then becomes, with a 142 point unit instead of a 70 point unit you then expect them to do more in the game, do they have the numbers left to have a reasonable chance at another unit? Although I suppose at this point they have earned their points. The question is at what number of kroot+hounds do they break even in combat, and how likely are they to stay above that number after shooting from just about any unit in the game with a gun.

Ok, I guess I can do it as well (this would be an edit but the first time I tried to post it, it didn't make it, so this isn't really an edit. I've gotten in the happen of ctrl+a and ctrl+c every reply before I hit submit because the site is eating so many posts)

Kroot - 8 of them against the marines, three attacks thanks to assault (the kroot rifle counts as 2 handweapons for the extra attack), equal chances to hit, 24 attacks, 12 hits, 6 wounds, 2 not saved. Same number of kills for the sergent, 1, equals 3 dead kroot/hounds and 5 dead marines. A decent victory.
This however doesn't seem to be a CC unit and just a normal unit, and I would expect the kroot to win there, I just wouldn't expect them to get into combat without taking casualties to shooting first.

Against the berzerkers they still kill 5 models, this time kroot instead of hounds. That means 5 kroot left, 15 attacks, 7.5 hits, 3.75 wounds, and 1.25 dead berzerkers. The champion would be the same killing 2.22 more kroot/hounds. That leaves 4.25 dead marines and 7.2 dead kroot/hounds. They aren't likely to make the LD test and will likely run.

If you reduce the hounds to 6 models thats 1.5kills from the hounds, increasing the kills of the normal marines by 0.5kills. Total then is 3.5 dead kroot/hounds and 3.5 dead marines, a statistical draw that could go either way. (actually slightly fewer kills for the kroot, I don't feel like calculating the change from the extra half a kill from the marines)
With the berzerkers they kill 2 more (7 total) and the 3 remaining kroot deal 3 wounds, 1 dead. End result is 2.5 dead berzkers and 9.22 dead kroot/hounds. Decidedly one-sided.

Although now that I think about it I'm not sure how the wounds would be assigned in 40k CC. Usually in fantasy the attacker decides which unit he is going to attack and/or can assign attacks against champions and which part of a mixed unit they are going to attack. Some mixed units have specific rules saying which models are killed first, but if they don't its the attackers choice. If it works like shooting (which I'm thinking it probably does) then the tau player gets to assign the wounds and your numbers are right. The kroot/hound unit might have a rule saying which models are killed first too, sometimes mixed units like that randomize the wounds between the different parts.

Either way though it seems to enforce the fact that the higher I of the hounds is making all of the difference. I don't know if the ferocious fangs makes any difference either, what that counts as.

It would be interesting to run the numbers against something like Orks, or something like Eldar or Tyrnids which are likely to go before or at the same time as the hounds. The kroot as a whole probably fair a lot better against the orks, I really couldn't say against the eldar or tyrnids without running the numbers.

I think though that against a fair number of opponents, the fact that the kroot will be out infront of all the rest of the tau, that things are going to be shooting at them in the turn(s) it takes them to get into range of the rest of the army. Since it is very likely a unit with rapid fire will have moved and not even be able to shoot at the tau while the kroot are within rapid fire range. Or like eldar who's small arms fire is pretty much limited to 12" range.

Edit again: well I decided to do a round of shooting against them. With at 2 shots a piece from a unit of 10 at BS4 with a St4Ap5 weapon (rapid fire bolters, shuriken catapults, though they can be BS3 or BS4, with a BS5 champ) that is 20 shots, 13.33 hits, and 8.88 wounds. Thats almost half the unit depending on how many you have. Even in 4+ cover thats 4.44 wounds, which might cause a morale check. Of course if it is pistol fire instead thats 4.44 wounds, and 2.22 in 4+ cover, not too bad if you can be in cover but not great either way.

Oh, I see. I guess that's something that loses a lot of its horror when you know that two thirds of those shots will bounce off harmlessly of even your most basic troops' armour. :smalltongue:
Against a troop heavy force, especially a heavily armored force, the list isn't a huge danger. If you happen to have a few expensive models, especially ones relying on high T or AV in the case of vehicles to survive then the list gets a lot more dangerous.

real edit:
@The Sandman
for readability and also because GW generally gets mad at fansites if people post the individual cost breakdown (not that they visit here, but I know its a big deal on dedicated WH sites) its best to just list the total cost of the unit.
Also not everyone knows all of the abreviations used by every army, so it helps people figure out what you have if you don't abreviate everything.

Winterwind

2009-01-16, 04:02 PM

Well I didn't run the numbers on them, maybe I should have. However, how would the numbers change if the Marines decided to take a round of shooting with their bolters or pistols into the kroot before the kroot close range?Well, I think they would have to score quite a lot of kills to significantly alter the results - this Kroot squad is quite a horde.
Plus, judging from evil_d4_swarm's list, those Hounds seem to come at 6 points per Hound - I think that qualifies as 'cheap' even for non-CSM-players. :smallwink:

Also how do the numbers change if the Marine player, knowing the hounds have already attacked, decide to kill the kroot instead of the hounds since that reduced the attacks back and the chance to hit, wound, and kill the models is the same?I know this would be more sensible for the Marine player, but as long as the Kroot and the Hounds form a single unit - which I assume is the case, judging from how evil_d4_swarm structured his list - and there are no special rules in place (of which I wouldn't know), the wounds are assigned the same way as when shooting. The only exception to this are Independant Characters who can be targeted directly, but we have none here. If the Kroot and the Hounds count as two separate units for CC purposes, then the Marine player can split his attacks accordingly.

The other question then becomes, with a 142 point unit instead of a 70 point unit you then expect them to do more in the game, do they have the numbers left to have a reasonable chance at another unit? Although I suppose at this point they have earned their points. The question is at what number of kroot+hounds do they break even in combat, and how likely are they to stay above that number after shooting from just about any unit in the game with a gun.Indeed. Another thing to note is that they might cause the Marine player to manouver more carefully in order to prevent them from getting the assault - in which case they would function quite well in the 'battlefield shaping' function you mentioned earlier.

Ok, I guess I can do it as well (this would be an edit but the first time I tried to post it, it didn't make it, so this isn't really an edit. I've gotten in the happen of ctrl+a and ctrl+c every reply before I hit submit because the site is eating so many posts)Yeah, it tends to do that on strip-update-days... don't know about your browser/browser settings, but mine remembers what I wrote when I go a page back, that usually saves me from losing what I wrote - maybe yours does so as well, or could be set to do so?

Kroot - 8 of them against the marines, three attacks thanks to assault (the kroot rifle counts as 2 handweapons for the extra attack), equal chances to hit, 24 attacks, 12 hits, 6 wounds, 2 not saved. Same number of kills for the sergent, 1, equals 3 dead kroot/hounds and 5 dead marines. A decent victory. Oh, two handweapons, huh?
Well, that makes Kroot even better than I thought...

This however doesn't seem to be a CC unit and just a normal unit, and I would expect the kroot to win there, I just wouldn't expect them to get into combat without taking casualties to shooting first.Well, not a unit built for CC specifically, but a Space Marine unit nonetheless. If they can win fairly decently against a general purpose unit full of elite models like Space Marines, just imagine the carnage if they managed to get to an actual shooting-only unit, or a normal unit of an individually weaker race!

And, yeah, there would definitely be casualties due to fire; the problem is that those are impossible to estimate, as depending on the situation on the entire battlefield those Kroot might run through several turns of artillery barrage concentrating on them, or just be shot once with a couple of pistols before they get to assault.

Against the berzerkers they still kill 5 models, this time kroot instead of hounds. That means 5 kroot left, 15 attacks, 7.5 hits, 3.75 wounds, and 1.25 dead berzerkers. The champion would be the same killing 2.22 more kroot/hounds. That leaves 4.25 dead marines and 7.2 dead kroot/hounds. They aren't likely to make the LD test and will likely run.Interesting what would happen then. Whose Initiative would count for breaking away from this CC? The Kroots? The Hounds?
Eh, there are probably some special rules for this...

If you reduce the hounds to 6 models thats 1.5kills from the hounds, increasing the kills of the normal marines by 0.5kills. Total then is 3.5 dead kroot/hounds and 3.5 dead marines, a statistical draw that could go either way. (actually slightly fewer kills for the kroot, I don't feel like calculating the change from the extra half a kill from the marines)
With the berzerkers they kill 2 more (7 total) and the 3 remaining kroot deal 3 wounds, 1 dead. End result is 2.5 dead berzkers and 9.22 dead kroot/hounds. Decidedly one-sided. Which pretty much means that if the Kroot are to have any use, the unit must have a minimum size. Ideally, many Hounds, as those are decidedly better at the CC role than the Kroot.

Although now that I think about it I'm not sure how the wounds would be assigned in 40k CC. Usually in fantasy the attacker decides which unit he is going to attack and/or can assign attacks against champions and which part of a mixed unit they are going to attack. Some mixed units have specific rules saying which models are killed first, but if they don't its the attackers choice. If it works like shooting (which I'm thinking it probably does) then the tau player gets to assign the wounds and your numbers are right. The kroot/hound unit might have a rule saying which models are killed first too, sometimes mixed units like that randomize the wounds between the different parts.See above. Though special rules wouldn't surprize me at all here.

Either way though it seems to enforce the fact that the higher I of the hounds is making all of the difference. I don't know if the ferocious fangs makes any difference either, what that counts as.Indeed. The Kroot are not sufficiently good at CC to dominate there - they are strictly worse than Space Marines equipped for close combat (which includes all Chaos Marines, except Thousand Sons), even - but the Initiative of the Hounds makes those perfectly suitable for fighting even dedicated CC units.

Note that if the Kroot unit was just a bit larger (specifically, 4 additional models), they would destroy the entire Berzerker troop (in my math above, only 2 Berzerkers lived, and that was not including the bonus attack the Kroot get from their weapon; with it, only one would survive), and hence losing more than the Berzerkers wouldn't matter anymore.

It would be interesting to run the numbers against something like Orks, or something like Eldar or Tyrnids which are likely to go before or at the same time as the hounds. The kroot as a whole probably fair a lot better against the orks, I really couldn't say against the eldar or tyrnids without running the numbers.Yeah, seems likely. I wouldn't bet on the Kroot's continued existance if they were up against Noise Marines instead of Berzerkers, either. :smallbiggrin:

I think though that against a fair number of opponents, the fact that the kroot will be out infront of all the rest of the tau, that things are going to be shooting at them in the turn(s) it takes them to get into range of the rest of the army. Since it is very likely a unit with rapid fire will have moved and not even be able to shoot at the tau while the kroot are within rapid fire range. Or like eldar who's small arms fire is pretty much limited to 12" range.Which means Kroot must be used with great care. :smallcool:

At any rate, I think those Kroot can be fairly effective, if used in a sufficiently big horde. Which, looking at the price, seems entirely feasible.

evil_d4_swarm

2009-01-16, 04:47 PM

Taking your (all of you) advice to heart, I have revamped my army list:

http://i732.photobucket.com/albums/ww327/evil_d4_swarm/d9cfe4eb.png

Erloas

2009-01-16, 05:41 PM

Yeah, it tends to do that on strip-update-days... don't know about your browser/browser settings, but mine remembers what I wrote when I go a page back, that usually saves me from losing what I wrote - maybe yours does so as well, or could be set to do so?

It does sometimes, and sometimes it doesn't, so I can never count on it. I think if it just goes back it remembers but sometimes I think it reloads the page when it goes back and that clears the typing.

As for the fleeing if the kroot or the enemy fleed, it goes by majority of models, so it just depends if the kroot or the hounds outnumber.

I think the kroot have a very viable role in the tau army, but like every unit in every army, it has to be supported properly to get much done. I think the problem with them is generally that tau lists aren't designed to give the enemy any other target to shoot at when the kroot move forward so they take a lot of fire and get shot down to inneffective sizes simply from attacks of opportunty from the opponents (ie nothing better to shoot at). I think it could probably work fairly well with some other troops with move and fire weapons with much range to move around with them. Such as a unit or two of fire warriors with the pulse carbines, and hopefully the opponent will underestimate the kroot and shoot at the FWs instead giving the kroot a higher chance of a good charge.

Altima

2009-01-16, 05:47 PM

Taking your (all of you) advice to heart, I have revamped my army list:

http://i732.photobucket.com/albums/ww327/evil_d4_swarm/d9cfe4eb.png

Only problem with this list is the troops section. This would be a typical 4th edition list, but now we're in 5th edition. Troops are the only things that can capture objectives, and you only have two troop choices. And kroot are very vulnerable to firepower. After they're dead, all your opponent has to do is hide on her table side, negating most of your short-range firepower. Even better if they take out your hammerheads.

EDIT: While we're talking about fluff, especially Tau, I think it was funny that, at one point, I fought a Tau army comprised entirely of kroot and led by an ethereal.

evil_d4_swarm

2009-01-16, 05:55 PM

*Looks at list.*

Holy cow! Where the heck did my Fire Warriors go?!:smalleek:

EDIT: Here is the fixed army list.

http://i732.photobucket.com/albums/ww327/evil_d4_swarm/dc421eab.png

Erloas

2009-01-16, 07:36 PM

Altima

2009-01-16, 07:45 PM

I like that list. It's a good all-comers list. I'd still say to get a transport for your each firewarrior squad, but can't always have everything you want. Besides, the pathfinder devilfish can transport 'em anyway.

evil_d4_swarm

2009-01-16, 07:47 PM

It looks a lot better with the fire warriors in there. I don't know the specifics of Tau well enough too say too much about it.

Also it seems like you are just talking screen-shots of another program and posting them, which works, but I would just use alt-printscreen to capture the image, it works without having that dialog box. It just creates a copy to the clipboard, then just open paint (or any other image program) paste it in there and edit out the program part of the window.

I'm taking screenshots of MS Word using ctrl-printscreen. I then copy it into paint.

I like that list. It's a good all-comers list. I'd still say to get a transport for your each firewarrior squad, but can't always have everything you want. Besides, the pathfinder devilfish can transport 'em anyway.

Yeah. my plan is for the Pathfinder Devilfish to drop off the pathfinders with two 12" moves (one scout) to a good sniper spot. Then the devilfish would be used to ferry troops across the board.

EDIT: My plan is to divide my army into two groups: Behind the Lines and Support.

Behind the Lines

Stealth Suits
Ion Blaster Shas'o
Kroot Squads
Crisis Suit Teams

____________________

The Stealth Suits and Kroot Squads stay in reserve, preparing to outflank.
Likewise, the Crisis Suits and Shas'o also stay in reserve, deep striking when they can.

The Crisis teams are divided into two groups: Tank Hunters and Dakkasuits.

The Tank Hunters hunt tanks with their missile pods, hence the name.

The Dakkasuits are there to bury burst cannon shots and flamer templates into horde-type squads.
The Shas'o jumps to whichever squad needs assistance. He mainly helps the Dakkasuits.

Support

Fire Warrior Teams
Missile Pod Shas'o
Hammerheads

____________________

The Carbine Fire Warriors advance towards objectives, firing all the way and avoiding assault troops.
The Rifle Fire Warriors speed towards an objective, defending it by firing at any threatening unit within 30".
The Shas'o follows the Fire Warriors, firing at light vehicles or closer targets.
The Hammerheads move at 6" per turn avoiding enemies and firing at heavyer vehicles or high-priority targets.

The Hammerheads can also move 12", firing only their railguns.

The Pathfinders will find a safe place and snipe at enemies.
The Piranhas will fly around the battlefield and assist where needed.

Winterwind

2009-01-17, 08:29 AM

As for the fleeing if the kroot or the enemy fleed, it goes by majority of models, so it just depends if the kroot or the hounds outnumber.Then having a good majority of hounds is even more crucial. Not only do they contribute the most to the squad's effectiveness (against enemies with I4 or less, anyway), they also could make the difference between the squad breaking away safely after having done severe damage to the opponent (but having lost CC anyway), and the squad being completely eradicated.

I think the kroot have a very viable role in the tau army, but like every unit in every army, it has to be supported properly to get much done. I think the problem with them is generally that tau lists aren't designed to give the enemy any other target to shoot at when the kroot move forward so they take a lot of fire and get shot down to inneffective sizes simply from attacks of opportunty from the opponents (ie nothing better to shoot at). I think it could probably work fairly well with some other troops with move and fire weapons with much range to move around with them. Such as a unit or two of fire warriors with the pulse carbines, and hopefully the opponent will underestimate the kroot and shoot at the FWs instead giving the kroot a higher chance of a good charge.The Kroot's main problem could be blasts and templates. They are practically the ideal target for that - large horde, no armour save.

onasuma

2009-01-17, 10:08 AM

I personally love a good kroot squad. 20 strong + however many hounds hugging cover are easily able to destroy an entire chaos marine unit or similar on the charge even when you factor in whatever casualties you have sustained. 3 attacks each at Ws4 and S4 at full size (kroot + hounds) can pump out nearly 100 attacks, nearly half of which will hit on a decent combat unit or about 65 on most other units. Think of how much damage that can do. Heck, even if you lose half your models, you'll still have more than enough to take out most units. You just need to hug the cover that kroot specialise at and its very easy to make them survive long enough to hit hard.

Erloas

2009-01-17, 09:41 PM

Quicky warning, going to ramble a bit on an upcoming purchase...

Well not that I have put everything I have now to extensive use, nor even painted most of it (I've got most of 1 guardian done, hopefully by the end of tomorrow it will be 20-30 total models painted), but I'm going to be making another purchase. Mostly all I need is some more primer because I don't have enough to finish the models I have and I can't get any locally (and I'm not going to try that dupli-color primer again, the coverage seemed really light (though that may just be because it was a little cold), and after it broke and sprayed me in the face I'm done with it) but I figure hey, if I'm going to order something I may as well pick up a few models while I'm at it. Its easy enough to justify knowing I like the army and will have plenty of opponents for the forseeable future.

What I have now:

HQ
2 farseers
4 warlocks
1 autarch on jetbike
Troops
9 jetbikes, 3 with shuriken cannons (can run as 1-3 units)
20 guardians and 2 HW platforms (1-2 units)
5 rangers/pathfinders
10 dire avengers
Elites
12 Howling Banshees (2 exarchs, though only really effective as a single group)
12 Striking Scorpions (2 exarchs, though only really effective as a single group)
Fast Attack
2 Vyper Jetbikes (can run as a squadron or individually, prefer them individual)
Heavy Support
5 Dark Reapers
2 War Walkers (can run as a squadron or individually, prefer them individual)
Transports
2 Wave Serpents

So with full utilization I have 1 free elite and 1 free fast attack, though I can easily get another fast attack or heavy support.

I like the idea of the Avatar and would like to see what I could do with him, though with 3 HQ choices and the fact that the list almost has to be tailored around him.

Not that I need any more troop choices (since I have 7 how I would prefer to field them) I would like to try the storm guardians some. They aren't as good as the aspect warrior CC units but they are cheap, have a decent number of attacks and is the only thing in my army that can take a flamer. I think they would be ideal in an avatar led army.

For fast attack the only one I'm interested in at this point is the Warp Spiders and I really like them. The biggest question with them is if I can reasonably field them in a unit of 5 or if I'm going to have to get 2 boxes.

I think the Falcon seems good, I'm just not sure if its really going to have a role that doesn't directly compete with the 2 wave serpents I already have.

The Heavy Support Weapon Battery (not the troop choice one) has some powerful weapons, but I kind of think they are expensive for what they can do. Although the D-cannon is nice in the fact that it can wound anything in the game (being a warp weapon) but being artillery the 24" range seems like it wouldn't be that effective against a lot of armies. The shadow weaver seems good too, its not as expensive, but its not as strong either. One other problem is that either choice would need 2-3 models to really be worth fielding.

For the elites its either fire dragons or harlequins. Fire dragons are great against vehicles, and something like terminators, but not really a whole lot else. So far I haven't had much trouble with tanks, but if I did run up against something like a land raider I don't think I have much of anything that can really even have a decent chance of hurting it. They also pretty much require a transport (falcon or wave serpent) to be effective and I don't know if they are really worth that much in terms of points in a game.
The harlequins seem really interesting and dangerous, but they are very fragile. I don't really think that they would fill any role that the scorpions or banshees can't also do (and for less points), they just have more utility*, and that comes at making them more expensive.

I don't really want to go with the wraithguard or wraithlord right now. They seem powerful and very survivable, but they are expensive and have to be babyset by a warlock (not a big issue really) They both have the ability to kill everything too (such as the aformentioned land raiders the rest of my army would have trouble with). The wraithguard are expensive points wise, and while I'm sure they are worth it, it also means a good portion of the list has to be built around them. They also both go against the whole glass cannon thing of the eldar, and an aspect of the army I want to stay with. The large wraithguard units and wraithlords make for a very survivable eldar list, and one I see posted around, but at least right now its not the direction I want to take my army.

I could also just pick up some more banshees or scorpions, but I do sort of want to diversify my army for now.

I'm thinking I will probably pick up 4 boxes. I'm pretty much set on getting the warp spiders, just not sure if its 1 or 2 boxes. And I'm really undecided on what I want to do with the last 2. Fire Warriors+Falcon? Harlequins* (probably have to pick up 2-3 individual models along with the squad)? Avatar and storm guardians? Some other combination?

*rule question if anyone knows... the shadowseer's veil of tears says any unit wishing to target the shadowseer or the unit she is with must role 2d6x2 for spot distance. Does this mean that if they were in a falcon (or picked up by a wave serpent since they can't take one by default) that the ability would also apply to shots at the falcon? The rules are pretty clear that psyker powers (which it is) can be used while in a transport and range for them is figured from the edge of the ship. But in this case I don't know if the falcon would be considered a unit she is with, in some aspects of the game the answer is clearly that they aren't in the same unit, but in other aspects they are.

Altima

2009-01-18, 12:22 AM

I like the idea of the Avatar and would like to see what I could do with him, though with 3 HQ choices and the fact that the list almost has to be tailored around him.

The Avatar makes a fantastic counter-charge unit. If you, for example, play a mostly shooty Eldar list, and someone gets too close to it with something big and nasty (Greater Daemon or other Monstrous Creature), an avatar can hand it its rear.

Not that I need any more troop choices (since I have 7 how I would prefer to field them) I would like to try the storm guardians some. They aren't as good as the aspect warrior CC units but they are cheap, have a decent number of attacks and is the only thing in my army that can take a flamer. I think they would be ideal in an avatar led army.

You can never have too many troops. Getting more Dire Avengers, Rangers/Pathfinders, or Guardian Jetbikes wouldn't be out of the question. Especially Dire Avengers, since they're a lot better than Guardians.

For fast attack the only one I'm interested in at this point is the Warp Spiders and I really like them. The biggest question with them is if I can reasonably field them in a unit of 5 or if I'm going to have to get 2 boxes.

Spiders definitely. Two boxes would do it. Since the warp spiders' weapons lack any AP, you'll want to have plenty of shots. I like to run the exarch with the double spinners.

I think the Falcon seems good, I'm just not sure if its really going to have a role that doesn't directly compete with the 2 wave serpents I already have.

The Falcon is good. Not as great as it was (read: nigh invulnerable), but still good. Personally, though, I like to use the Fire Prism tanks. You should give them a try in a game to see if you like it.

The Heavy Support Weapon Battery (not the troop choice one) has some powerful weapons, but I kind of think they are expensive for what they can do. Although the D-cannon is nice in the fact that it can wound anything in the game (being a warp weapon) but being artillery the 24" range seems like it wouldn't be that effective against a lot of armies. The shadow weaver seems good too, its not as expensive, but its not as strong either. One other problem is that either choice would need 2-3 models to really be worth fielding.
Personally, the Heavy Support platforms only seem useful in Apocalypse games (and boy, are they useful there!). It just seems that heavy support slots are too valuable for normal games for the weapon batteries.

For the elites its either fire dragons or harlequins. Fire dragons are great against vehicles, and something like terminators, but not really a whole lot else. So far I haven't had much trouble with tanks, but if I did run up against something like a land raider I don't think I have much of anything that can really even have a decent chance of hurting it. They also pretty much require a transport (falcon or wave serpent) to be effective and I don't know if they are really worth that much in terms of points in a game.
The harlequins seem really interesting and dangerous, but they are very fragile. I don't really think that they would fill any role that the scorpions or banshees can't also do (and for less points), they just have more utility*, and that comes at making them more expensive.

Fire dragons pretty much kill the thing they're sent against. Send them against terminators, monstrous creatures (especially tyranid versions as they lack invul saves), C'tan, and just about any vehicle (other than the monolith).

If you have enough firepower elsewhere, you can go without either choice. Out of the two, I'd say the Fire Dragons are the better choice, but, as you said, you absolutely need a transport for them. And, of course, many heavy infantries and most MCs have invul saves that'll save them no matter how much AP1 weapons yous hoot at them.

I don't really want to go with the wraithguard or wraithlord right now. They seem powerful and very survivable, but they are expensive and have to be babyset by a warlock (not a big issue really) They both have the ability to kill everything too (such as the aformentioned land raiders the rest of my army would have trouble with). The wraithguard are expensive points wise, and while I'm sure they are worth it, it also means a good portion of the list has to be built around them. They also both go against the whole glass cannon thing of the eldar, and an aspect of the army I want to stay with. The large wraithguard units and wraithlords make for a very survivable eldar list, and one I see posted around, but at least right now its not the direction I want to take my army.

Don't forget that Wraithguard are extremely expensive in money. I believe the price is around 10 USD for two. Wraithlords are a better buy, in my opinion, especially if you have a Farseer hanging back, guiding, dooming, or fortuning all over the place. Lastly, a special note to the 10-strong Wraithguard troop choices. If you plant those on an objective, it's near impossible to dislodge them.

I'm thinking I will probably pick up 4 boxes. I'm pretty much set on getting the warp spiders, just not sure if its 1 or 2 boxes. And I'm really undecided on what I want to do with the last 2. Fire Warriors+Falcon? Harlequins* (probably have to pick up 2-3 individual models along with the squad)? Avatar and storm guardians? Some other combination?

You should try playing a few proxy games with the other units (falcon+fire dragons, Avatar, Storm Guardians, etc), then make a decision. Alternatively, you can start buffing out some of the units you use more often, such as Dire Avengers, War Walkers (I love 3 war walkers each with two scatter lasers I think they are...so many shots), or guardian jetbikes.

You should also think about some Shining Spears to go with your Autarch, especially if you want to do a more jetbike oriented game.

*rule question if anyone knows... the shadowseer's veil of tears says any unit wishing to target the shadowseer or the unit she is with must role 2d6x2 for spot distance. Does this mean that if they were in a falcon (or picked up by a wave serpent since they can't take one by default) that the ability would also apply to shots at the falcon? The rules are pretty clear that psyker powers (which it is) can be used while in a transport and range for them is figured from the edge of the ship. But in this case I don't know if the falcon would be considered a unit she is with, in some aspects of the game the answer is clearly that they aren't in the same unit, but in other aspects they are.

They wouldn't be shooting at the shadowseer (or her unit) they'd be shooting at the Falcon. Veil of Tears is already brokenly powerful as is.