OOTS #648 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Unregistered]

That was certainly unexpected from Haley...

[Yellow]

Haley is chaotic evil now.

[kpenguin]

Well, that'll certainly be awkward if she comes back.

[Blackdrop]

Haley rules. End of discussion.

[Tempest Fennac]

I can't believe she murdered Crystal like that. :smalleek: I also can't believe that Celia thinks Crystal would give her (apparently only) weapon to Haley like that.

[Single_Lupus]

Nicely played on Haley's part. Also nice to see that Elan's not afraid of standing up to V, in spite of the elf's newly acquired arcane potency.

[Yendor]

Muahaha. That was awesome.

[FoE]

YES! OH YES!

Thank the gods! Go Haley!

[JeminiZero]

I like how Belkar has this knowing smile on the last panel. :smallamused:

[Aaron]

:smalleek:...wow... I wasn't expecting that from Haley. This is going to backfire on Haley later.

[pasko77]

GO Haley GO!
She is da b*tch!
I love her!

[imp_fireball]

Haley is chaotic evil now.
{Scrubbed}

Alignment is GRADUAL no matter how much a character concedes to change themselves, the ultimate shift is gradual. A paladin doesn't fall because of a change of alignment, they fall because they broke their code, which can be (whenever the gods decide) instantaneous or likely to shortly take affect.

Haley is anything but chaotic evil. She might be turning on the slippery slope towards chaotic neutral (if her duty to her father is slipping) but more likely she is still chaotic good because she made sure a murdering girl met her demise AND ensured that she is still determined to fulfill her goal of paying off her father's debts, which is highly admirable (even if its family), imo.

End of story.

[Hardcore]

So, where will Varsuvius take them? To fight Xykon? What happen if he loose the other souls unexpectedly?(Count on it to happen...)
Will he wait for Roy be fore going? (IS he resurrected yet?)

As for Haley; well, she is a Rougue. QED

[Aaron]

I can't believe she murdered Crystal like that. :smalleek:

It's not too surprising. Crystal almost did the same to Haley. Justice.:smallbiggrin:

[petersohn]

This was really evil of Haley. And pretty mean, too.

[Mannryu]

I didn't expect this... but I love the fact how Celia is clueless and Belkar remained silent, knowing what happened.

[Haven]

Holy ****! That was awesome.

[Ganurath]

I like how Belkar rolled high on Sense Motive. His Wisdom may be poor, but not so bad as Celia's. Of course, it could just be that Haley got +5 on her Bluff with Celia and -5 with Belkar.

[R. Malcovitch]

...What the hell?

That came out of nowhere.

[Squirrel_Token]

Holy badass beating batman! :smallbiggrin:

Haley rules!

[Tanaar]

There's no 'slippery slope' for Haley in regards to Good vs Neutral. Remember when the Celestial was talking to Roy? A major non-Good action like that can get you 'chucked into the Neutral bin'. And even in mechanical D&D terms, that kind of pivotal, major action is exactly what fuels an alignment change. Cold-blooded, murderous revenge is an Evil act. Which, balanced with her Good actions, makes her Neutral. And Chaotic is pretty much intrinsic to her character ('My Daddy was a First Edition Thief').

So yeah, we just witnessed our second real OOTS alignment change. (The first was V going from Neutral to Evil. Hir ethical axis is debatable...probably Neutral, making hir NE right now).

[werik]

I really did not see that coming at all. I thought that Haley's sneak attacks wouldn't work on Crystal though since they're of the same level with improved Uncanny Dodge? Is it just a Rogue thing that Crystal doesn't have sufficient levels in because of her Assassin prestige class? I thought it applied for them, too.

Anyhow, unexpected yet pretty awesome. These plot points are getting wrapped up while creating new complications as we go along. Hopefully we'll see the Western Continent and Roy back alive in the next 2-3 strips.

[Xodiac]

Woah. Now there's a surprise. No sarcasm intended - I really was surprised that Haley would settle things like THIS. Nice job.

[Starscream]

Holy cow! Haley can be pretty nasty when she's riled.

And aren't they gonna raise Roy before they take off?

Love the Roland Itiative gag.

[Rad]

That was... cold blood murder?
Are we sure Haley is still chaotic Good? Or even Goodish?

I would have never thought Haley would do something like that; it seems really odd from what we know of her personality. I mean, she was the one unwilling to use Soul Bind on the linear guild...
This comic looks... inconsistent, and in a bad way. :smalleek::smallfrown:

As for graduality of alignment shifts: that's because people usually change theyr values gradually. Look at V: we could see something going on since ages earlier: be cranky, refuse to rescue Lien, kill Kubota, leave the fleet etc. There was a progression and it fitted nicely. This seems to really be out of the blue.

[Edhelras]

Ah... murder never felt so good.....

[Ellye]

Woah, I didn't expected that one. That was interesting and kinda awesome.

[RelentlessImp]

Just. Wow. Haley went all Lou Ferringo on Crystal. That was awesome.

[Raging Gene Ray]

Now when Belkar dies, he'll have Crystal to provide him with a nice soft body to provide warmth!

Seriously, I think I like seeing good things happen to Haley.

[Martok]

As soon as Haley said she forgot something, I knew what she was up to. I'll admit, however, that I hadn't seen it coming prior to that moment.

I'm not so sure that was an evil act, by the way. Yes it's one thing to kill someone in cold blood, but to kill someone in cold blood who clearly wanted you dead? I don't know. Seems to me you could make a good argument using Lien's assertion that "Good doesn't always mean Dumb"; i.e, Haley was simply proactive in eliminating a nasty/dangerous opponent, etc.

Mind you, I'm not saying that actually *is* the case. Only that you could probably make a pretty strong argument for it.


EDIT: By the by, why the emphasis on "now" when Belkar said he didn't remember the female bard's name? I think I'm missing something there. :smallconfused:

[Leper Master]

Wow. . . reminds me of the godfather.

[Mordokai]

Well that was pretty... unexpected, to say in the least. I am surprised to see Haley doing this, but I guess it makes a wee bit of sense, if you're looking from her perspective. I don't think this made her evil yet, but it pushed her towards evil. And it will probably result in some sort of karma backslash.

[Porthos]

*scans the mutiple alignment knee-jerk reactions that have already been posted*

Yeppers. As much "fun" as the V discussion is/was, I think I'll sit this one out. I'll be in that corner over there waiting for the inevitable firestorm to die out, thenk-yew-veddy-much. :smalltongue:

*makes mental note not to read/respond to any of the multitude of alignment-related posts/threads that are going to pop up any second* :smallamused:

[Kroy]

Haha! Deserved it!

[Krytha]

Wow... Haley just straight up murdered her in cold blood.

Makes you wonder why V didnt just teleport to Azure city and take the whole thing down with Xykon.

[Tempest Fennac]

Regarding the Crystal/Haley fight, I'd say it looked as though it was both of them who were equally responsible for them wanting to kill each other (and they both seemed to overreact a lot when they were 19). I mainly said I couldn't believe Haley did it due to how unexpected it was.

[Kaed]

Here we go again, every time someone does something unexpected, everyone starts up with the alignment change arguments.

I'm afraid I'm going to have to go with the people who are trying to stamp out the chaotic evil theory here, though. While I won't deny that killing Crystal in the bathroom moves towards the evil territory, she is undeniably a good character. The fact that Crystal is both a vicious murderer and a personal rival somewhat mitigates the fact that she was killed. That is what you are supposed to do to personal rivals. You kill them, before they kill you.

Not to mention that the term 'cold-blooded (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2y8Sx4B2Sk)' murder keeps popping up. I would hazard a guess that this was anything but 'cold-blooded'. There were plenty of emotions going on at the time.

In any case, I too find Belkars expression to be amusing. I am rather glad that curly haired bared is being written out of the story too. We have too many extraneous characters as it is, as V would say.

[Often Normal]

I enjoyed this one. Even if Crystal is raised she is going to be out a +3 weapon as well as all her protective rings etc.

Though, as raise dead says "the body of the creature to be raised must be whole" Haley could have lopped off a finger/toe/ear/misc small concealable bit from the corpse and that would stop the raise right? I'm sure Mr Scruffy wouldn't mind chowing down on a finger :smallbiggrin:

Poor V really has the worst kind of meter running right now too.

[SirSigfried]

But think of it like this: If she didn't break the Contract (one that she didn't enter into willingly) she would be a debt slave to the guild for the rest of her life. Especially if they found out about that Dragon Hoard that was found and subsequently lost. (wording in said contract kinda screws her over here)

So if you are going to bail, killing the most skilled assassin in the Thieves Guild and taking her stuff leaves them weakened and with a 5000 - 25000gp debt to pay off. First two spell options leave her with one level less than what Crystal started with.

And that doesn't include purchasing new level appropriate equipment.

Revenge is just a bonus.

[Cracklord]

I think I just had a vengencegasm....

[Kioran]

Well, that proves, to me, that Haley is indeed CN rather than CG, and that she is, for the most part, a ruthless b***h who is only concerned about her immediate friends and family.
It isn't inconsistent with her character though. And in a way, illustrates that Miko's problems with the Order weren't exactly unfounded.

[Pronounceable]

You know, I'd forgotten how much Haley rocks. It's good to be reminded of it.

WOHOO! You go, girl!

Crystal's days of mooching off of Haley is over. In fact, all of her days are over. And she isn't worth a resurrection. And Bozzok will survive. YAY!

Edit, for JUSTICE!: Yay, another alignment debate is sparking up. I'll say I approve of what Haley's done. I'd have done the same if I was her (or playing her). And one act, no matter how drastic seeming (which isn't all that drastic in this case) doesn't change one's alignment. Contrary to what George Lucas says...

[Porthos]

Here we go again, every time someone does something unexpected, everyone starts up with the alignment change arguments.

You've noticed that as well? :smallsmile:

I swear, some people on this board think that alignments are frigging yo-yo's the way they scream "OMG alignment change!1!" at the drop of a hat. :smalltongue:


Not to mention that the term 'cold-blooded (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2y8Sx4B2Sk)' murder keeps popping up. I would hazard a guess that this was anything but 'cold-blooded'. There were plenty of emotions going on at the time.


Yeah, I'm finding that amusing as well.

Oh well, guess I'll have to be amused in my corner over here.

BTW, there's plenty of room over here for all of the people who want to sit this one out. Plenty of room for everyone, really. :smallwink:

PS: We have cookies over here. Just so everyone knows. :smalltongue:

[Enlong]

EDIT: By the by, why the emphasis on "now" when Belkar said he didn't remember the female bard's name? I think I'm missing something there. :smallconfused:

Well, she's all "if you remember me later, give me a call?" and Belkar's all "Remember you later? I don't even remember your name now. That's how much I don't care about you."

Same thing as the "Well, there's exactly two sandwiches here, so no. They're both for me." Line. The Belkster doesn't love her, and he's not shy about letting her know. Constantly.

[DSCrankshaw]

And here I was all worried about V's alignment change.

I won't claim that Haley jumped all the way from Chaotic Good to Chaotic Evil, but I wasn't entirely convinced that she was Chaotic Good in the first place. And whether it was justified or in character or evil or not, it does make me like her a little less.

[Killer Angel]

"Roland"?
Well, no doubt Haley's the girlfriend of Elan... they're sharing the same sense of humor :smallwink:

[NakedCelt]

EDIT: By the by, why the emphasis on "now" when Belkar said he didn't remember the female bard's name? I think I'm missing something there. :smallconfused:

He doesn't remember her name now — so he certainly won't by the time he hypothetically returns to town. Ergo, he can't "look her up" again.

[Fish]

No no no no, Haley is Lawful Evil. She entered into a contract. Therefore, she is Lawful.

I feel so dirty

[Aquillion]

Haley is anything but chaotic evil. She might be turning on the slippery slope towards chaotic neutral (if her duty to her father is slipping) but more likely she is still chaotic good because she made sure a murdering girl met her demise AND ensured that she is still determined to fulfill her goal of paying off her father's debts, which is highly admirable (even if its family), imo.Technically speaking, protecting those you love is neutral behavior:


"Good" implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others.

"Evil" implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some evil deity or master.

People who are neutral with respect to good and evil have compunctions against killing the innocent but lack the commitment to make sacrifices to protect or help others. Neutral people are committed to others by personal relationships.Haley has always acted more or less chaotic neutral; this fits in line with that.

[ref]

Aw, poor Jenny. I'm sure you'll find someone that corresponds your love soon. Belkar isn't long for this world anyway.

OTOH, Take that, Crystal.

[Reisender]

Haley is anything but chaotic evil. She might be turning on the slippery slope towards chaotic neutral (if her duty to her father is slipping) but more likely she is still chaotic good because she made sure a murdering girl met her demise AND ensured that she is still determined to fulfill her goal of paying off her father's debts, which is highly admirable (even if its family), imo.

I'm not so sure that was an evil act, by the way. Yes it's one thing to kill

someone in cold blood, but to kill someone in cold blood who clearly wanted

you dead? I don't know. Seems to me you could make a good argument using

Lien's assertion that "Good doesn't always mean Dumb"; i.e, Haley was simply

proactive in eliminating a nasty/dangerous opponent, etc.


It's not too surprising. Crystal almost did the same to Haley. Justice.

Comments like these are bothering me for quite some time now. I have the strong feeling that the ethical compasses of some readers are quite messed up.
Cold blooded murder can never be justified by circumstances or any previous behaviour of the victim. Allthough by eliminating another bad guy and therefore increasing the overall happiness-outcome of the oots-world, Haleys act in itself is an evil deed for sure. (Both from a deontological as well as a virtue ethics point of view.)
I must say it really disturbs me how people think it's somewhat ok, an act of proactive self-defense or even "just" when Haley goes all Michael Corleone on her enemies.

Oh and for the record: The strip was awesome.

[Paseo H]

To the guy who doesn't like the bard chick: would you feel that way if you thought she was prettier?

Also, why does this board seem to attract the most dumb debates?

Does it really make a difference while one sleeps at night, whether one is right or wrong about certain character details on a webcomic?

It's like whenever something weird comes up, people come out of the woodwork to cling stubbornly to their point of view as though the universe depended on the outcome.

This isn't Quantum Science people, this is a webcomic.

[nonamearisto]

Haley has just become as bad as crystal. Now, fully half of the order of the stick is evil; Belkar, Vaarsuvius, and now Haley. What she did was no different than what Crystal would have done, and that sets Haley on the same level.

A good character would not have done what Haley just did. A neutral character would not have done it, in all likelihood. While Crystal was a killer, she was not an immediate threat to Haley. Furthermore, Haley was about to leave Greysky city, so her life would not have been under threat from Crystal in the near future, or possibly at all at any time.

It wasn't a killing to promote safety of herself or others (a good act), nor was it done in the name of legitimate justice (a neutral act); it was done for revenge, plain and simple (an evil act.)

P.S. The fact that Belkar approves of Haley's actions is a clear sign that something is very wrong with what she is doing. Maybe Norman Bates would have given it a thumbs up too, especially with the shower bit.

[Brauley]

Everyone's givin' props to Haley, saying they didn't expect that of her.

But I'm surprised with Elan mostly. I would have never thought him to stand up to V like that.

Another brilliant comic Rich
*Round of applause*

[misterk]

This really bothered me. I didn't see it coming, and to me it felt like it was beyond the pale. I couldn't care less about d and d alignments, but this action doesn't seem to suit who I thought Haley was. As others say, she seems to be far more interested in those close to her than doing the right thing. She didn't need to kill Crystal, because Celia had managed to set it up so it was no longer necessary. Yes, it was a weak deal and Haley hated it, but killing someone in cold blood (btw cold blood means pre-meditated usually, it doesn't have to be emotionless), a bit frightening really.

[Hrairoo]

as tempting as it is to sit out the alignment argument, porthos, i'm gonna have to side with kaed here. rogues do their business under the table by nature, so by everyone's judgements here, there is no such thing as a 'good' rogue, let alone a lawful one.

haley knows she needs to leave the guild again. their best assassin is a personal enemy of hers. boom. two birds with one stone.

also seeing as the guild is partly responsible for her father's condition is also enough of a justification for her to leave, on top of celia's speaking for her without her consent. seeing as she needs to leave anyways, she knew how well it turned out when she left last time so... :smallwink:

ps-it's also nice to see haley finally adjusting her tact to keep the fairy-moral compass running smoothly.:smallamused: although belkar seems to know what's going on...

[MickJay]

Haley's finally being proactive and more assertive :smallbiggrin:

[MuseUnchained]

You've noticed that as well? :smallsmile:

I swear, some people on this board think that alignments are frigging yo-yo's the way they scream "OMG alignment change!1!" at the drop of a hat. :smalltongue:



Yeah, I'm finding that amusing as well.

Oh well, guess I'll have to be amused in my corner over here.

BTW, there's plenty of room over here for all of the people who want to sit this one out. Plenty of room for everyone, really. :smallwink:

PS: We have cookies over here. Just so everyone knows. :smalltongue:

~chanting to self~ Will not get involved in alignment argument. Will not get involved in alignment argument. Will not get involved in alignment argument. Will not get involved in alignment argument. Will not get involved in alignment argument.


...

COOKIES! (+5 to will save against arguing right there ;)

[Hrairoo]

This really bothered me. I didn't see it coming, and to me it felt like it was beyond the pale. I couldn't care less about d and d alignments, but this action doesn't seem to suit who I thought Haley was. As others say, she seems to be far more interested in those close to her than doing the right thing. She didn't need to kill Crystal, because Celia had managed to set it up so it was no longer necessary. Yes, it was a weak deal and Haley hated it, but killing someone in cold blood (btw cold blood means pre-meditated usually, it doesn't have to be emotionless), a bit frightening really.

you'll remember, misterk, that celia set it up withOUT her consent, in the worst possible way for both haley's end goals (getting her dad out) as well as her party's. as a member of the guild you can't really leave w/out their consent, and now that v is wrapping up the party, she needs an out where crystal can't follow her. even if raised, crystal will now be forever more, a level behind haley as well as be stripped of all her equipment. sending a firm message to the guild that "i'm not worth messing with" is the least she could do before leaving.

[Porthos]

COOKIES! (+5 to will save against arguing right there ;)

We have chocolate chip, sugar, walnut, macadamia nut, peanut butter, and just about any other cookie you could want. :smallbiggrin:

*passes MuseUnchained a plate full of freshly baked cookies* :smallcool:

[Crod]

Finishing an old nemesis? Murder? Sure.. I would like the one who has NOT done this with a good character in an RPG throw the first stone.

[Nenec]

I didn't expect that as well, not in this strip, but it's not something I wouldn't expect from Haley. She's a rogue and she wanted revenge towards the one who was almost the old-times-nemesis and who tried to kill her several times and never accepted her to be in the guild. She didn't kill her before only cause of the contract, but now it's broken, so....free willy!
Her change IMHO we've seen it through time, is only due to her gaining even more confidence: being the chief of the gang in azure city; having to be almost a baby-sitter with Belkar and Celia and both making her more angry and uncomfortable from time to time.
And plus: uuuuuuuuuuuuh Haley's got brand new weapon now! No more risks when someone breakes her bow again, if ever.

Elan is cool when raising his head with V!

Mr Scruffy, I was almost forgetting him, luckily Belkar didn't! That emphasis on NOW, I see it just like: I don't need you anymore, so who cares about you.

Uh, nice also that "Tell her off panel" :smallbiggrin:


I think I just had a vengencegasm....
:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

EDIT: this strip just reminded me that one: "Sneak attack bitch!"

[Hrairoo]

Finishing an old nemesis? Murder? Sure.. I would like the one who has NOT done this with a good character in an RPG throw the first stone.

hehe, exactly, crod. who hasn't leaned towards the heavy handed in times like these? :smallbiggrin:

anyways, i'm done here. i think i'll stroll over to the cookies at porthos corner. :smallsmile: haha! i forgot that haley wasn't around when the two redshirts were named. i almost thought the giant let slip a typo, but i should've known better.

[Kaed]

This really bothered me. Yes, it was a weak deal and Haley hated it, but killing someone in cold blood (btw cold blood means pre-meditated usually, it doesn't have to be emotionless), a bit frightening really.

The definition of cold blooded murder is a premeditated and dispassionate killing of someone. While there is no doubt that this qualifies as premeditated, these two people have hated each other since they were children, and the fact that one of them was going to end up dead was inevitable. Thus this would fall under the category of killing for the sake of honor and revenge, which is debatably an evil act depending on the society. The issue with the term 'cold-blooded murder' is that it is being used increasingly more often (http://ezinearticles.com/?Critical-Analysis-of-in-Cold-Blood---What-Do-They-Mean-by-In-Cold-Blood&id=1543706) in the improper manner.

Incidentally, I would like a +5 Chocolate chip cookie ;D

[Crod]

And let me just add that Belkar's knowing half-smile is priceless.

[Greep]

I take no stance on alignments on haley or V but I do find this funny:

V kills black dragons for revenge: Must be evil because those chaotic evil dragons could have been given a chance to repent, blah blh blah.

Haley kills evil thief for revenge: Must be good because thief was evil.

...buh???

I'm guessing this means Hot = good, plain = evil.

[Haven]

I take no stance on alignments on haley or V but I do find this funny:

V kills black dragons for revenge: Must be evil because those chaotic evil dragons could have been given a chance to repent, blah blh blah.

Haley kills evil thief for revenge: Must be good because thief was evil.

...buh???

Haley did not commit genocide.

V did.

That is kind of a big deal.

Anyway: I think the real person having an alignment problem in this strip is Durkon. Clearly his absence in this strip indicates that he has snuck away and become an aggressive drug dealer (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheAggressiveDrugDealer) and begun pimping out common gardening implements (he has hoes...and rakes) all to fund his crusade against the trees. Oh the dwarfanity!

Or maybe he's sliding a step closer to neutral. As in inanimate. :|

[Greep]

well, whatever name you give it doesn't change murder.

[Cyradoc]

I didn't expect this in the slightest, but taking out a dangerous and annoying personal nemesis makes perfect sense. No more easy auto-leveling for Crystal :smallbiggrin: ! And no retroactive guild 'tax' either, feeding lots of money to people who were perfectly willing to kill you and are just waiting for a better chance to come along? I think not. Clearly Neutral actions in my opinion.

P.S. Rock on rogue buddy! :smallwink:

[DrGonzo]

Great comic Giant!

You're like the gift that keeps on giving!

[Porthos]

well, whatever name you give it doesn't change murder.

Without getting into the alignment discussion, what alarmed a bunch of people is the fact that dozens of dragons who had nothing to do with the situation were struck down without warning.

Makes the situation slightly less analogous if you ask me. But, then again I didn't have a problem with V knocking off the YBD that started the whole feud in the first place.

So at least I'm consistant. :smalltongue:

[homeosapiens]

HALEY is a ROUGE! (not like you didnt know that, but some of you seems like forgetting)
She could kill her only cold blooded and surprised+ she was on the clock. That was maybe a neutral act (killing for magic items, revenge and so on-you cant say she killed her for fun or something) but i think she is still closer to good then neutral. After all that's just one more dead enemy and you didnt shout "omg! aligment change!" when she murdered poor gobbos or hobbos... And the deal? Just another decepcion to get a favor, regular thing and Celia is better left not knowing..

Roy is not alive, again!!!!!!
(hits something)

[Trixie]

So... I guess it's time for a deluge of posts praising Haley for what she did while claiming it was the most lawful good act ever? :smallsigh:

Well, if we had people who thought genocide is a good act... :smallamused:

[X2]

Cool! Great comic

89 percent

[Duma]

"Roland' Itiative"... Mwahahaha that was great! :smallbiggrin:

I like Haley a lot more now.

[MisterLeirus]

I think the main issue here is not the murder or the vengeance. Haley did this to take the guild off her shoulders, and sent a clear message. The vengeance was a nice side dish. It is completely logic, and benefits both the guild and her parent... Haley is not lawful, so she does not give a damn for the contract..

And, we should not forget, in a world where raising the deads is possible (in Crystal case even likely) the murder does not have quite the same meaning. For Crystal this is more a setback than a real "death"

[RebelRogue]

I wouldn't call it unexpected with the relationship between Haley and Crystal that's been established so far. This is certainly not a Good act! However, I'm not sure it's enough to warrant an alignment change for Haley: Crystal is an exception rather than the rule when it comes to Haley dealing with other people. That does not excuse what she did or make it less Evil, but IMO it alone is not enough imply a switch to The Dark Side(TM)!

Lovely strip, BTW.

[LuisDantas]

Is the Giant intending to put clay feet on every single member of the Order? Haley's behavior was very disappointing - and out of character.

Celia, for the first time in a long while, has been quite the Ditz, buying such a silly cover story at face value.

Belkar is just Belkar. He shows once again that he did not grow up at all.

And yes, it sure IS nice to see Elan show the courage to stand up to Vaarsuvius, although V _almost_ has a point. He still deserved Elan's scolding, though.

I wonder how hard it is to get 5000 GP in diamonds at the OOtS-verse. People seem to be taking for granted that any given dead body may be raised/ressurrected, and I don't think we are meant to.

[homeosapiens]

So... I guess it's time for a deluge of posts praising Haley for what she did while claiming it was the most lawful good act ever?

We know she's chaotic, so obeying the deal doesnt fit + Crystal swore death to her. Doesnt seem that bad to me at all.

Seriously - Belkar=Lawful Good and such other cases - it makes me sick when people write stuff like that. They shall give infractions for spam, cause they usually make no sense and consist only of statement with no reasoning shown(which statement ofc makes no sense).

[Edhelras]

I really did not see that coming at all. I thought that Haley's sneak attacks wouldn't work on Crystal though since they're of the same level with improved Uncanny Dodge? Is it just a Rogue thing that Crystal doesn't have sufficient levels in because of her Assassin prestige class? I thought it applied for them, too.

Anyhow, unexpected yet pretty awesome. These plot points are getting wrapped up while creating new complications as we go along. Hopefully we'll see the Western Continent and Roy back alive in the next 2-3 strips.

The Improved Uncanny Dodge feat ensures that Crystal can no longer be flanked, thus she can't get Sneak Attacked due to being flanked. That is also where the "another rogue of at least 4 levels higher" comes into play.

What happened here was, I think, that Crystal was hit in the surprise round. Although I'm not entirely sure, since Haley said "Roland Initiative etc...", so maybe she just won the Initiative roll. I guess Crystal was "aware" of Haley, but she wasn't (at that moment) "aware" that Haley was her enemy. I would judge it to be a surprise round, I think. Any way, Crystal is undoubtedly caught flat-footed here.

Crystal of course has ordinary Uncanny Dodge (level 4 rogue), which makes her maintain her DEX bonus to AC even if caught flatfooted. The Sneak Attack comes into play in any situation where the character is denied her DEX bonus to AC. But I don't think this implies that a rogue is immune to Sneak Attacks - only that she can retain her DEX bonus to AC when trying to avoid being hit by the Sneak Attack.
Whereas a non-rogue character would BOTH be more vulnerable (have a worse AC) and take more damage (the Sneak Attack d6) in a situation where he was attacked by a rogue while being flat-footed.

Not sure about this, though.... Although I simply cannot believe the Giant would make such a mistake...

[Itdano]

Wow. That comic was full of win. In every conceivable way.

[TheDarkDM]

Ahem...

As per dictionary.com...

Cold-Blooded: without emotion or feeling; dispassionate; cruel

Pre-Meditated: planned in advance

Now, while I understand the reaction of many to this act as being somewhat brutal on Haley's part, in my opinion it was neither cold-blooded nor pre-meditated. This was the somewhat logical conclusion to the relationship we've seen between Crystal and Haley, a relationship characterized by a mutual hatred of Shakespearean proportions. Consider this: what would the reaction on this thread have been if Haley had killed Crystal in battle? Most likely many of us would be praising her for finally defeating her hated foe, but Crystal would be no less dead and Haley's motives would have been the same in either case. As to attacking Crystal in the shower, I see it as a move totally consistent with Haley's character to strike first instead of waiting for an appropriately leveled Crystal to show up later with a hit-squad and get in the way a la the Linear Guild.

Oh, and quadruple sneak attack is nothing less than totally badass.

[Monation]

I guess Durkon's busy dealing with Golem-Roy and the Resurrection spell.
I can't wait to see what Roy has to say about V's "Magic Outsourcing".

[Edhelras]

BTW I have a hard time seeing this act as "evil".

Killing little children is Evil. Killing a known and dangerous murderer is... heck, it's almost Lawful Good! She's doing society a service! Additionally, she's got the motivation or justification of revenge.

What she really did here was 1) breaking a contract and 2) surprising Crystal who thought she was respecting a "cease-fire". This isn't Evil, it's Chaotic.

Remember, Rogues have got Sneak Attack. It's simple a class feature that they're not supposed to, like paladins, declare their attack before they hit. No "sportsmanlike" here. If you think killing Crystal without giving her a chance to defend herself is Evil, then you condemn the whole Rogue class into evilness. Which you might of course choose to do, except that the game developers obviously don't look at it that way.

[Murdim]

While there is no doubt that this qualifies as premeditated, these two people have hated each other since they were children, and the fact that one of them was going to end up dead was inevitable. Thus this would fall under the category of killing for the sake of honor and revenge, which is debatably an evil act depending on the society.Please. Crystal tried to murder Haley few days ago, and WILL have the opportunity to do it again since Haley doesn't mean to obey her contract with the guild (and who would blame her for this, Celia aside ?). She had way better and more sensible reasons to kill her than honor, revenge or deep character incompability ; that would rather be the reasons why she enjoyed it.


well, whatever name you give it doesn't change murder.Well, killing sentient beings while adventuring is murder, and thus evil. Haley is evil from the beginning. And so are Roy, Durkon and Elan.

[Kalbron]

Sheesh.

The moral grandstanding and feelings of smug superiority in this thread are so thick you'd need a chainsaw to cut through them all.

Ask yourself what you would have done to ensure that a psychotic sadist (who only a few days ago was a hair's breadth away from killing you until you were saved, not that the bitch chose to stop; and who only ~10 minutes ago gave a not so subtle suggestion she still wanted you dead) wouldn't come running after you and your friends when you left to save the world. Then judge her.

The appropriate amount of sympathy one should feel for Crystal is The Number of Years of Jail Time She Served as Punishment for her Numerous, Numerous Crimes / The Number of People Crystal Murdered *100.

... then again this forum loves giving moral equivalence between the likes of Stalin and Martin Luther King, so I'll stop bothering. God help the PCs if they somehow end up defeating Redcloak and Xyklon or defeating legions of the Hells because people will start screaming "cold blooded murder" and "OMG, THEY'RE CHAOTIC EVIL NOW".

[Athaniar]

I don't believe Haley's evil (or neutral) now because of what she did, but it was certainly an evil act. Come on, she killed a defenseless person! Sure, Crystal is evil, but that does not justify her act. And one evil act can lead to many more...

[homeosapiens]

What i dont understand is how Crystal survived 4x8d6 +4d6 +20+4d8(+whatever i dont know about) and why Haley didnt use rapid shot on first round.

[petersohn]

Haley was always Chaotic Neutral. We've seen her doing many good traits recently, like fighting at the side of the Resistance or opposing Belkar's evilness, and now it was an undoubtedly evil act. It won't change her alignment though. While V clearly shifted towards the Evil alignment (not only with the soul splice), this is the only really evil act that we know from Haley, which is by far not as serious as V's Familicide. Haley is more Good than Evil, but she is still Neutral.

[Crod]

well, whatever name you give it doesn't change murder.

No one has argued that this is not murder. But I find it a bit scary that you classify both acts the same way due to the common term 'murder'. I personally find the moral and ethical implications of wiping out about a quarter of a race light years apart from what Haley did.

[Sebastian]

It was more a mean act than a evil one, IMHO. Haley killed krystal in the thieves guild. There are better than good chances she will be raised as soon as possible, because high level characters like her are too precious to let them rot. In the end all Haley did was a) get some (more than deserved) payback on Krystal, b) give a warning to the guild ("Leave me in peace and I'll leave you in one piece") and c) gain some sweet magic jewelry and a kickass blade.

The funniest part is that Krystal did tell Haley she could borrow her knife so technically Haley said the plain truth to Celia. :smallbiggrin:

[homeosapiens]

Yeez, i know i posted like in a bad moment (before the 3rd site end) but seriously i mean what i said and i d like someone to response on it, cause i cant figure it out...

And Jenny reminds me of my girlfriend i have to break up with:/. Damn i feel evil.

[Murdim]

It was more a mean act than a evil one, IMHO. Haley killed krystal in the thieves guild. There are better than good chances she will be raised as soon as possible, because high level characters like her are too precious to let them rot. In the end all Haley did was a) get some (more than deserved) payback on Krystal, b) give a warning to the guild ("Leave me in peace and I'll leave you in one piece") and c) gain some sweet magic jewelry and a kickass blade.... and from the bitch who broke her bow.


Haley was always Chaotic Neutral. We've seen her doing many good traits recently, like fighting at the side of the Resistance or opposing Belkar's evilness, and now it was an undoubtedly evil act. It won't change her alignment though. While V clearly shifted towards the Evil alignment (not only with the soul splice), this is the only really evil act that we know from Haley, which is by far not as serious as V's Familicide. Haley is more Good than Evil, but she is still Neutral.Well, Word of God says she's Good. And, you know... if she wasn't, why would she debate on the morality of killing an enemy hobgoblin with Celia ?

[Greep]

Yeez, i know i posted like in a bad moment (before the 3rd site end) but seriously i mean what i said and i d like someone to response on it, cause i cant figure it out...

And Jenny reminds me of my girlfriend i have to break up with:/. Damn i feel evil.

lots of 1s

[Anaxagoras]

Major ethical theories and their reaction to Haley's action.

Assumptions:
1. Crystal was a professional killer, of an evil alignment
2. Crystal does not only kill other deserving, evil characters. This seems reasonable, given how much she seemed to enjoy her work.
3. Crystal would have attempted to kill Haley or those close to her for breaking the contract.

Utilitarianism (any form of modern consequentialism really): clearly justified. Crystal was a source of pretty much only pain. Her death, though a loss in the calculus, is more than set off by the lives are saved. Good action.

Kantian Morality: her execution was not only justified, but mandatory. It was inappropriate for Haley to like doing ithowever, she should have been moved by solemn duty. Neither moral or immoral. Notably, breaking the contract is clearly immoral for Kant, if Haley actually said she agreed to it.

Christian Divine Command theory: either vaguely Kantian response, or totally unacceptable (depending on the orthodoxy). If unacceptable, then so would be killing Redcloak in a pitched battle, however. Thus, this is inapposite, because in DnD killing is an acceptable solution to a serious problem.

While I respect the mercy of the board members, I think you would be hard pressed to find a intelligible moral system that condemns Haley's killing of Crystal. Most would endorse them, if not the relish with which they are performed.

[Tempest Fennac]

Why do you need to break up with her, homeosapiens? Maybe you should talk to Syka about that (she's responsible for the relationship advice thread in the Friendly Banter section, and she could be much more helpful then me in this situation).

Now that I think about it, do you think Haley actually paid the guild anything? I'm curious about whether any of the jobbers Haley and Belkar slaughtered got revived.

[homeosapiens]

And she was already relatively wounded - wt*? Con 30 or what?

OT:
Edit: I figured out that im staying with her only for the sole reason that i dont want to hurt her by saying that we have to brake up, and my friend toldme to do that by saing that "i am the bad guy" so she wont fell that miserable.

MB i repeat what i wanted to say earlier:
Crystal was relatively wounded. She took 4x8d6+4d6+20+4d8 damage and didnt die. And i am just surprised really.

Forget the "why haley didnt use rapid shot" maybe giant just didnt want to get so much in the details.

[Murdim]

Now that I think about it, do you think Haley actually paid the guild anything? I'm curious about whether any of the jobbers Haley and Belkar slaughtered got revived.Because it is evil not to want to pay the resurrection of people who died trying to murder you ? Because killing a bunch of people in self-defense qualify as "slaughter" ?

[Talith]

What i dont understand is how Crystal survived 4x8d6 +4d6 +20+4d8(+whatever i dont know about) and why Haley didnt use rapid shot on first round.

What makes you think she didn't? Rogues don't ever get 4 base attacks as their base attack bonus maxes out at +15/+10/+5.
Indeed this seems like pretty strong evidence that she's level 15 since that's the earliest level at which rogues get 3 base attacks, so add the extra one from rapid shot in there and then hey you've got the 4 that she took.

Incidentally the damage is going to be, at minimum
4 x [1d8 base + 5 magic + 1d6 cold + 8d6 sneak] so 4d8+20+36d6 which is pretty nasty, 164 average damage.
I might guess that Crystal didn't take the extra sneak attack damage (Uncanny dodge pretty much prevents you from getting sneak attacked unless you're flanked) which puts the damage at a much more reasonable 34 which is a reasonable chunk out of a 15th level rogue's hit points assuming an average con score. (55hp)

Then after pinning Crystal to the floor, she became immobilized and therefore vulnerable to sneak attacks despite uncanny dodge, so the 9d6+strength from the knife would have finished her off quite neatly, which is what we saw happen.

That's my take on it anyway.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

That was... surprisingly dark... :smallconfused:

[Tempest Fennac]

Actually, I'd class reviving them as an evil action. I was wondering because of the contract which Celia came up with stating that Haley owed the guild half of her earnings, and I'm assuming the guild would have wanted it before they got Roy back if they could get it. Regarding the terminology I used to describe what Haley and Belkar did, it was pretty much a massacre until Bozzak and Crystal came into the picture.

[Trixie]

"Roland' Itiative"... Mwahahaha that was great! :smallbiggrin:

So... what doest that even mean? :smallconfused:

[Secris]

Great comic as always Giant, I love the revenge scene and the title.

I have a couple of questions for all you rule lawyers, since I don't play D&D much. First, does the Order have to do something to the bone golem before they can raise Roy, or can he be raised in his body's current state of golem-ism? Also, since V is so powerful and now has access to the conjuration school, could she simply conjure up the requisite number of diamonds needed to ressurect Roy? I understand that epic spells have near unlimited power, potentionally, and Rich can homebrew it as needed, but is there any precedent for simply conjuring up a whole lot of diamonds?

[homeosapiens]

Haley did get surpraise round. Thats why she didnt use rapid shot, at least imo. Anyway the core is Crystal shall be O'Ctul like thought to survive that and she did, cause haley had to finish her with dagger.

[danielmayer]

I find it quite amusing that killing an assassin counts for some people as evil act. We're quite the same opinion that "killing" is an integral part of D&D-of-any-edition.

If there would've been "Roland, the paladin", waiting for Crystal to grab her dagger and *then* killing her, it would've been an lawful good act...
Remove the prerequisite "wait for battle-readiness", which counts as pre for "lawful", imho, should fill in the chaotic-good definition quite fine.

I love the two (again) consequent handlings of Haley and Belkar according to their charakter. After Elan did take NP as spell, Haley (finally) thinking of her father again, the dwarf being again...still... a dwarf,... I can't wait for Roy!
-pleeeeaase!!!-

[Sinai]

...I have a hard time swallowing that people who regularly play DnD are calling killing a clearly evil nemesis an evil act. One who quite literally makes it their business to kill people for fun and profit and has been trying to do the same to you for years because she simply dislikes you.

Seriously? Have you never contemplated that there are situations where killing another thinking creature might be a reasonable, best course of action? DESPITE PLAYING RPGS?

[Tempest Fennac]

I think Epic magic could probably create diamonds, or summon them from the Plane of Gems. Wish, http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Wish , could handle it easily as long as V didn;t have to pay the Exp. cost and that's not quite Epic level. I'm guessing the Golem would need to be destroyed first to be used to revive Roy, but I'm not certain.

Sinai, I on;y kill things in self defence or if there are no other forms of conflict resolution when playing D&D. (I class wanting to fight needlessly as unrealistic due to the risk involved, and I almost always play good characters).

[Kaytara]

I understood Belkar's line as a reference to where Jenny says "My name's Jenny, by the way! In case you ever... you know." So, yeah, she DID tell him her name, some days ago, but he doesn't remember it NOW.


I don't believe Haley's evil (or neutral) now because of what she did, but it was certainly an evil act. Come on, she killed a defenseless person! Sure, Crystal is evil, but that does not justify her act. And one evil act can lead to many more...

Killing a person when they're unprepared or are otherwise unable to deal with your attack is how rogues WORK, though.

And in any pitched battle, as well, you often kill the person when you finally get an opening to strike, i.e. when they can't defend themselves, even for a split second. That, too, can be considered dishonourable.

It's usually considered the height of honour if a hero is so chivalrous that he doesn't exploit the momentary advantage and waits for his opponent to regain his poise, or even hands him back his weapon if he got disarmed. But IMO that comes ridiculously close to Lawful Stupid territory.

When you're fighting someone, you're trying to kill them by exploiting their inferiority in skill or just their bad luck. Whether you do that when you're both tired and injured or when the battle has barely started does not make any difference, ethically.

[RMS Oceanic]

:smalleek:

My take: This is the "Ish" in Haley's "Chaotic Good! Ish!" alignment manifesting. I can't say whether its an evil act or a neutral act, but it's definately one that I would decry should anyone in my party do that. There are a number of reasons she would do this (personal dislike/revenge, long term self defence and long term financial security), and I think it's clear Haley did this for all those reasons.

I think what sets this contentious killing compared to the other two (Miko killing Shojo and V killing Kubota) is that there's no real confusion about motive. Haley doesn't leap to conclusions, both she and the audience know exactly how dangerous Crystal (and the guild in general), and she's also honest about her personal motives in doing this.

Final Ruling: The same way Roy is more Good than Lawful, I suspect Haley is more Chaotic than Good. Definately not an acceptable act under modern morality, but we all know that D&D doesn't model that very well. The good members of my parter would reprimand her, but I think they'd take an Elan-esque "it's just as well" approach, like he did before he knew why V exactly killed Kubota.

[JustRain]

It doesn't matter if Crystal was or was not evil, because Haley didn't kill her to stop her from killing others, she did it because she felt like it. And that's evil.
It's like what Miko was doing, using evil means to destory evil things.

It doesn't mean that Haley is evil now, but she defiantely did an evil thing. I can't even remember Belkar killing someone unprepared.

[Eric O'Really]

wow...just, wow. that was unexpectedly cold blooded from haley :smalleek: . there are times in every great story when the heroes are tempted by the darker sider of their souls. and it seems, that the order of the stick will one after another be tested on their ideals, too.

and it doesnt matter in my opinion, how evil crystal was. what matters is the reason why haley killed her. it was not over the danger, that crystal could hurt her friends or other innocent people. it was for the sake of some personal vendetta.

if we would go down that road, v didnt commit any really evil act for that matter, too. he killed kubota, who was just a jackass, and by high chance, would have just bribed and talked his way out of his miserable situation, thus continuing to be a real threat.

he killed a load of black dragons, who are supposed to be evil anyway by game mechanics.

aside from that, all of his actions have been without a doubt good. he rescued his innocent family and even got the azurians a new home.

but he obviously still shifted to evil and didnt stay neutral. so the intentions behind his actions seem to be the catch. and the same applys for haley. killing crystal for the sake of revenge and some loot doesnt seem verry good to me. not even neutral.

[homeosapiens]

The gnome menace? He totally killed it...

[Murdim]

It doesn't matter if Crystal was or was not evil, because Haley didn't kill her to stop her from killing others, she did it because she felt like it. And that's evil.Read the friggin' previous answers. Or alternatively, think yourself about some rational and understandable reasons why Haley could have murdered Crystal.

[Tempest Fennac]

V only appeared to help the Azurites because s/he was fed up with hearing about their problems, and the family saving was just neutral. Also, Kubota was incredibly dangerous due to his ambitions and political influence (I'd also argue that trying to kill a pregnant female because it would help you to attain political power is incredibly evil). You can't be sure that all of the dragons were evil so I'm classing that act as incredibly evil as well.

When did Miko use evil to fight evil? She was a Paladin until she killed Shojo, but she only seemed to fall because he wasn't helping Xykon (if Start of Darkness is any indication of why Paladins fall).

Homeosapiens, I'm sorry I didn;t say this sooner, but I'm really sorry to hear that about your girlfriend.:smallfrown: Hopefully you'll both be able to recover from breaking up quickly.

[petersohn]

Yes, killing someone by surprise is in itself Chaotic but not necessarily Evil. If Chrystal was an immediate threat to Haley, then it would be OK to kill her (even like this, as Haley is chaotic). But they were just leaving, so I must say no. Chrystal wouldn't have the slightest chance to reach Haley if they get teleported. In the long term, she will get resurrected anyway.

I can see only one justification for Haley doing this: it's a sign of breaking the contract with Bozzok (which is again OK for a chaotic character, especially against evil ones). But it's still not enough to kill her.

[JustRain]

Read the friggin' previous answers. Or alternatively, think yourself about some rational and understandable reasons why Haley could have murdered Crystal.

Read the friggin' "How to be nice to people" book.

I can answer to what you said, but I really don't want to.

[Griever3216]

Wow, just wow. It was just yesterday that I was thinking of starting a thread about what will happen to Crystal since the Order leaving will leave this business open with seemingly no reason or whatsoever in the future to deal with it. I guess this comic answered my question. I did not see that coming, but I still like the way it was played out. Many subplots have been resolved in an anticlimatic way, but they have been done in a lovely way. This also resolves the problem of Haley giving her money, as well still leaving her with a reason to avoid Greysky.

I also loved the comments about the knife and Celia's gullibility. Heh, heh. :smallbiggrin: What remains to be seen is where the Order is departing to, to what seems to be the last arc for this book and the setup of the scene for the next one.

[Military Man]

*Remain frozen in shock for 2d8 minutes*

that was pretty violent and evil for Haley, but you have to admit that was a good comic.....

[Eric O'Really]

it still doesnt change the fact, that she killed crystal out of revenge. and killing her with her own dagger and telling her, that she will take crystals jewlry to humiliate her, will not make it better act.

what bothers me most, is that shaley really seemed to enjoy killing crystal. if a good character kills an evil character, he still should not enjoy it. no matter how many peronal conflicts there may be.

[Nevitan]

Oh, Yes! That is exactly what I've been hoping to happen to Crystal since Haley, Belkar and Celia came to Graysky!

And for the record, I still see Haley as chaotic good, especially after this.

[homeosapiens]

But it's still not enough to kill her.
Jesus christ - they are all CE - they killed goblins just for standing in the dungenon, so they did with those innocent ogres, who just helped the old farmer get away from that old wife of his. Face it - adventures kills bad thnigs for money. Not only for self-defence. Why would they go in the dungenons if they didnt mean to cold bloded murder those evil monsters? Since they usually dont come out of those dungenons and dont affect anyones' life?!

Am i overeacting a bit?

Edit: She enyojed it so she is bad. She shall say "My God, I' am so unhappy that i tottaly kicked your ass, got richer by valuable magic items, beat my personal nemesis, and the situation couldnt get better. Life is pain, omg..."

[RMS Oceanic]

Jesus christ - they are all CE - they killed goblins just for standing in the dungenon, so they did with those innocent ogres, who just helped the old farmer get away from that old wife of his. Face it - adventures kills bad thnigs for money. Not only for self-defence. Why would they go in the dungenons if they didnt mean to cold bloded murder those evil monsters? Since they usually dont come out of those dungenons and dont affect anyones' life?!

Am i overeacting a bit?

Just a tad, but you hit the nail on the head: D&D Morality is incompatable with real life morality.

[petersohn]

Jesus christ - they are all CE - they killed goblins just for standing in the dungenon, so they did with those innocent ogres, who just helped the old farmer get away from that old wife of his. Face it - adventures kills bad thnigs for money. Not only for self-defence. Why would they go in the dungenons if they didnt mean to cold bloded murder those evil monsters? Since they usually dont come out of those dungenons and dont affect anyones' life?!

Am i overeacting a bit?
I suppose you are overreacting. I'm not for slaughtering monsters, but the dungeon is another place with another rules. There, either you kill the monsters or they kill you. A paladin may try to negotiate with every bit of them before attacking, a rogue not.

Anyway, those goblins were there to stop them to reach Xykon's lair. The giants were thought to have been kidnapping the farmer, trying to kill him, etc.

[chefsotero]

I don't see no diference in walking into an evil creature (lets say an Black Dragon) Lair and killing him, and what Haley just did.

This is still DnD right?

When u go adventuring in an dungeon one goes killing evil sentient beeing all over the booping place, in their homes/lairs.

Halley just went in an known evil beeing home and killed her. Enjoying it a bit of course...


And on another topic: I'm also curious about the rezzing of an golen bodie

EDIT: Ninja'd by Homeosapiens. Lets go for the cookies now.

[Tempest Fennac]

Regarding the Ogres, the Order were just told that he was kidnapped by the Ogres. Now that you mention it, actually finding out why they did it would have made more sense, but that would cause problems in combat (sadly, SoD proves that the OotS world is like a lot of D&D woulds in the sense that some creatures are there for the sole purpose of getting Exps, so the idea that the Ogres weren't evil never seemed to enter anyones minds*).

*Miko should have been able to use Detect Evil to check the Ogre's alignments, so I'm assuming they showed up as evil, unless she just charged in, which I'd say is much more fallworthy thin putting Shojo out of everyone's misery.

[Hamilkar]

I always said that Haley needs a weapon for close combat.
This was so unexpected and cool at the same time!
And Belkars knowing look is simply amazing. He knows. And he knows that Celia doesn't know! :smallbiggrin:
Great comic! (by already high oots standards)

[homeosapiens]

I suppose you are overreacting. I'm not for slaughtering monsters, but the dungeon is another place with another rules. There, either you kill the monsters or they kill you. A paladin may try to negotiate with every bit of them before attacking, a rogue not.

Anyway, those goblins were there to stop them to reach Xykon's lair. The giants were thought to have been kidnapping the farmer, trying to kill him, etc.
And Crystal was closer to kill Haley than any goblin ever(inc. Reddie).
she was like Joker to Batman and like Xykon to Roy - i dont thnik of any reason she wouldnt kill C. the rouge way.

I got a strange feeling that it is all about "making an argue" or "let us lament about sth" not like about anyone really thinking that what Haley did was so bad. Remember that feeling bad for Crystal stupidity doesnt change anythnig.

[Holammer]

I did *not* see that coming. But we shouldn't be that surprised either. Because It is in line with Haley's chaotic alignment. Still I can't imagine this not having consequences in the future.

[Grumpy_Frenchman]

Quote:
Originally Posted by homeosapiens
Jesus christ - they are all CE - they killed goblins just for standing in the dungenon, so they did with those innocent ogres, who just helped the old farmer get away from that old wife of his. Face it - adventures kills bad thnigs for money. Not only for self-defence. Why would they go in the dungenons if they didnt mean to cold bloded murder those evil monsters? Since they usually dont come out of those dungenons and dont affect anyones' life?!

Am i overeacting a bit?

Just a tad, but you hit the nail on the head: D&D Morality is incompatable with real life morality.


Exactly. It seems that it's perfectly all right to go and slaughter SENTIENT CREATURES in their own dwellings - be they villages or dungeons - just because they're classified as evil.

Since Crystal is clearly evil, and she was slaughtered in her own room within the guild... well, then, where's the difference, mmh?


Easy: she's HUMAN. What has people feeling icky about an act which is, when all's said and done, perfectly standart for an adventurer in a D&D world, is that for once it's not some poor Goblin who gets backstabbed or finished off in his sleep, it's a Human Being.

I can understand it. But at the same time, I'd advise those people to expand their sense of Right and Wrong to also encompass non-human sentient species. Either start feeling icky about the entire adventuring process (which might lead you to cheer for Redcloak!)...

... Or suspend your disbelief entirely and immerse yourselves FULLY in the world described. It's not our. Our morality doesn't apply to them.


(Note: stupid thing wouldn't post, and now hordes of people have answered this already. Grr.)

[Murdim]

Just a tad, but you hit the nail on the head: D&D Morality is incompatable with real life morality.Then, why are we still judging Haley's alignment (D&D morality) on the "murder is evil" basis (RL morality) ?


I suppose you are overreacting. I'm not for slaughtering monsters, but the dungeon is another place with another rules. There, either you kill the monsters or they kill you.Yes, I agree with you, there is a huge difference between your standard dungeon monster and Crystal. The monsters attack adventurers who come to them, while Crystal will try to kill Haley wherever she can go.

[Kelper]

Am i overeacting a bit?


Not at all.
Crystal is "a thieve and assassin. She thieves and assassinates."

Since there is no way to stop/imprison her, it is really the only thing Haley could do. The only language, in fact, Crystal understands.
(who is well aware, that she will be resurrected, so "murder" is maybe the wrong word anyway.

More like a warning shot.)


(Sorry for my bad english)

[Tempest Fennac]

(Your English is fine, Kelper. :smallsmile:)

I solve the issue of killing people for being a certain race by completely ignoring listed alignments while using whichever race I want when I want to use it while giving them a reason to fight the PCs (eg: I'm running a PBP game where the party is dealing with a load of Ashbound Druid sect members who are charming animals into attacking a nearby town while attacking small villages as part of a plan to destroy civilisaton, and the group so far has included humans, Elves, Lupins, Vulpines* and Apefolk*, which are all listed as normally being neutral (for Apefolk) or some sort of good (for everything else).

*These are both races which I created myself.

[homeosapiens]

Then, why are we still judging Haley's alignment (D&D morality) on the "murder is evil" basis (RL morality) ?

Yes, I agree with you, there is a huge difference between your standard dungeon monster and Crystal. The monsters attack adventurers who come to them, while Crystal will try to kill Haley wherever she can go.
I am one place closer to friendly - gj on diplomacy check :smalltongue:.

BTW: Nobody is still interested in Crystal impossibly high HP :-(
I posted quite a few times about that, that she shall not survive arrows.
Anyway, see you in few hours.

[Solara]

Haley has just become as bad as crystal. Now, fully half of the order of the stick is evil; Belkar, Vaarsuvius, and now Haley. What she did was no different than what Crystal would have done, and that sets Haley on the same level.


:smallsigh:

So if she saves the life of a person she likes later on in the strip she becomes as good as Hinjo, by your reasoning, right?

[factotum]

Wow. Just...wow. I was NOT expecting that in the slightest. Going to cause some serious problems if, for some reason, V isn't able to teleport them out!

As for the alignment discussion...I believe cookies were mentioned?

[Ovaltine Patrol]

This isn't Quantum Science people, this is a webcomic.

Uh oh, someone missed the secret alt text for the better part of the last 400 strips. Looks like you're going to have to reread them all.

[Saint Nil]

Ahh, thats the Haley I love.:smallbiggrin:

[Taekwondodo]

Heeheehee... "Now you'll think of her everry time you use it" , such a ditz!:smallbiggrin:

[misterk]

Sigh, must people get so angry over other peoples reactions? There is room in this world for people to disagree, and find an action ethically questionable, or a scene disturbing, without it inflicting on your ability to enjoy that event.

First of all, the question of attacking monsters is different- both expansion books point out the issues with the character's actions in the order of the stick world. This is why many people sympathised with the black dragon attacking V, despite it's very evil plan. There are indeed two arguments as to whether the order were right in killing the dragon- it was going to attack them, but arguably they were infringing on it's territory. So yeah, theres an argument to be had there.

Thats what people are saying here, and consider that the presentation is different. Haley is attacking a character we know, and while we have been TOLD crystal is horrible, a killer, excetera, I'm not sure we've ever seen her kill anyone! Yes, she was going to kill Haley, but under her bosses orders. Indeed, most of what we know about Crystal haley was the one who told us this. We don't know whether Haley can be trusted, as there was never any love lost between the two.

Nevertheless, we can indeed accept that Crystal is evil, albeit incompetent and stupid evil. Yet presently she presented no threat to Haley. Haley decided to MAKE her a threat again, and thus deal with that threat. Thus she attacked an unarmed person in a state of undress, and took GLEE in killing her.

Now what I am trying to present for you here is not proof that this action is irredeemably evil, but rather reasons why getting annoyed with people for being uncomfortable with a morally ambiguous action by a character with whom we are meant to sympathise might be upsetting.

[Snake-Aes]

Here we go again, every time someone does something unexpected, everyone starts up with the alignment change arguments.

I'm afraid I'm going to have to go with the people who are trying to stamp out the chaotic evil theory here, though. While I won't deny that killing Crystal in the bathroom moves towards the evil territory, she is undeniably a good character. The fact that Crystal is both a vicious murderer and a personal rival somewhat mitigates the fact that she was killed. That is what you are supposed to do to personal rivals. You kill them, before they kill you.

Not to mention that the term 'cold-blooded (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2y8Sx4B2Sk)' murder keeps popping up. I would hazard a guess that this was anything but 'cold-blooded'. There were plenty of emotions going on at the time.

In any case, I too find Belkars expression to be amusing. I am rather glad that curly haired bared is being written out of the story too. We have too many extraneous characters as it is, as V would say.
Enemies, not rivals. Crystal is no Rival of Haley, but an Enemy. A Personal Subplot-Nemesis actually. Rivals are generally on good terms with each other even if they don't like each other. Rivals take it on a much more "sportive" way. Rivalry is about besting your opponent, and even in combat prowess, that doesn't usually end in death.

[JustRain]

There's a huge different between killing goblins in a dungeon and the murder of Crystal.
1. Goblins are an immidiate threat when the adventurers kill them. Crystal was not - she was just shouting stupid comments at Haley. Because she's stupid.
2. Adventurers do NOT kill goblins when they're in the shower, without their weapon, armor, protection items, unpreapared, etc. And they do NOT humiliate them. Darn, it's pretty much the worst way of dying, helpless and naked before your enemy.

I understand why Haley did it, I think we all do, but it does not justify the way she did it. Even for a rogue. Even sneaking at her from behind when she is wearing her stuff is a lot more fair.

It's even similiar to what Nale tried to do to Haley. He also meant to attack her unpreapared without her armour and weapon. And they both pretened to be someone else - "Roland"?

[rgrekejin]

We have chocolate chip, sugar, walnut, macadamia nut, peanut butter, and just about any other cookie you could want.

*passes MuseUnchained a plate full of freshly baked cookies*

Best offer I've heard all day.

*takes macadamia nut cookie*

Anyone want to role up a gnome illusionist? It looks like we could be here a while.

[Snake-Aes]

There's a huge different between killing goblins in a dungeon and the murder of Crystal.
1. Goblins are an immidiate threat when the adventurers kill them. Crystal was not - she was just shouting stupid comments at Haley. Because she's stupid.
2. Adventurers do NOT kill goblins when they're in the shower, without their weapon, armor, protection items, unpreapared, etc. And they do NOT humiliate them. Darn, it's pretty much the worst way of dying, helpless and naked before your enemy.

On the contrary. Unless there are paladins in the group, sneaking, surprising, and ultimately crushing your enemies before they can react is one of the better strategies when you invade their lair with killer intentions(which is, sadly, almost always)


I understand why Haley did it, I think we all do, but it does not justify the way she did it. Even for a rogue. Even sneaking at her from behind when she is wearing her stuff is a lot more fair.

It's even similiar to what Nale tried to do to Haley. He also meant to attack her unpreapared without her armour and weapon. And they both pretened to be someone else - "Roland"?

In both cases, those were very smart moves.

[Assassin89]

Once again Crystal proves that she is a complete idiot by telling everyone that she will be in the shower.

As for the sneak attacks by Haley, uncanny dodge prevents Crystal from being flanked, but does not prevent Crystal losing her Dexterity bonus to AC.

Haley killing Crystal is an excellent plot-centric element as it proves that there is such a thing as being too dumb to live.

Oh, I almost forgot. *Takes cookies*

[Mauve Shirt]

This is a development that pleased me immensely, no matter how unethical it might be.
I still want to see Haley's reaction to the Therkla tale, but "tell it off-panel" is right.

[Grumpy_Frenchman]

1. Goblins are an immidiate threat when the adventurers kill them. Crystal was not - she was just shouting stupid comments at Haley. Because she's stupid.

They are an intimate threat because the adventurers are invading their lair. They're not the initiaters of that threat in such situation.

You could argue that the adventurers are removing the potential (or verified) threat of Goblin raiders operating from the dungeon.
But in that case, it's easy to argue that Haley is removing the potential - or verified - threat of Crystal doing what she does: killing people.



2. Adventurers do NOT kill goblins when they're in the shower, without their weapon, armor, protection items, unpreapared, etc. And they do NOT humiliate them. Darn, it's pretty much the worst way of dying, helpless and naked before your enemy.

They cast sleep on them and finish them off. Fireball the lot of them. Wade in with a clear advantage as level X such-n-such class.
We're not talking real life mechanics here, with the risk for ANY fighter to get killed in ANY fight. A level 5 D&D fighter simply cannot lose to a goblin. The result is fixed, no matter how prepared the goblin is.
Shower or not, if you're a goblin facing adventurers, you've gotta feel helpless and naked...

[Voyager_I]

You don't seek out fair fights when you're eliminating a mortal threat.

Especially if you're a rogue with a chaotic alignment.

[Vulion]

While at first I was a bit shocked at Haley's choice of action I remember when her temper flares, she is capable of anything. And since the whole contract thing, Haley has been livid.

I think this was a desperate attempt to wrest some control back into her life. This was on her terms, not on Celia's and not on the guilds.

While the murder is somewhat justified by the fact that Crystal is well...Crystal, I think this strips shows what Haley's anger makes her capable of.

[dogmac]

I think that V's actions have made me immune to mere murder of someone I want to die.

All I felt with this comic was a grim satisfaction and a bit of a "Go Haley" viciousness.

[Amarsir]

Now that is a Greysky resolution I can get behind!

Though I can't help but shake the feeling that they're forgetting something before they teleport out *cough Roy! cough*

[Morty]

Proof once more that people are willing to forgive pretty much everything if the person doing the deed is a protagonist of the story.:smallsigh:

[Murdim]

As for the sneak attacks by Haley, uncanny dodge prevents Crystal from being flanked, but does not prevent Crystal losing her Dexterity bonus to AC.Well, we are talking about Uncanny Dodge, who exactly do that. The anti-flank feature is called Improved Uncanny Dodge.

Uncanny Dodge (Ex)
Starting at 4th level, a rogue can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. She retains her Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if she is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, she still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized.

If a rogue already has uncanny dodge from a different class she automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead. Problem is, by RAW, assassins also get it at level 2. So Crystal can't theoretically be more than Rog3/Ass1 with a ludicrous +3D6 Sneak Attack.


Proof once more that people are willing to forgive pretty much everything if the person doing the deed is a protagonist of the story."People" ? Please don't generalize, you're far from being the only complainer. About one half of the posts on this topic could be abridged as : "HALEY WENT EVIL !", the other part being shared by those who think the act is evil but Haley isn't, those who think she was justified, and those who don't want to care.

EDIT : yes, i'm exaggerating.

[Lord Seth]

I can't believe she murdered Crystal like that. :smalleek: I also can't believe that Celia thinks Crystal would give her (apparently only) weapon to Haley like that.I can believe Celia would think that. Celia's been established to be pretty stupid.

Hrm, I have mixed feelings. On one hand I thought Celia's bargain to make Haley pay half her gold was idiotic, so I'm definitely for Haley running off without paying it. Killing Crystal like that seemed a bit over-the-top though.

[The MunchKING]

EDIT: By the by, why the emphasis on "now" when Belkar said he didn't remember the female bard's name? I think I'm missing something there. :smallconfused:
He's gotten what he wanted, why should he remember her now?

[SkredlitheOgre]

And once again, Vaarsuvius is pushed to the back again. Awesome. And Belkar is a pimp. (not in the literal sense. I don't think.) Double awesome.

[SteveMB]

And yes, it sure IS nice to see Elan show the courage to stand up to Vaarsuvius, although V _almost_ has a point.

Hmmm... does this mean that
Vaarsuvius is seriously intending to give up the splice ASAP once these last few matters are sorted out? S/he could be trying to hurry to minimize the debt to the fiends... or perhaps out of concern that the longer s/he holds the power, the harder it will be to give it up.

[warmachine]

That was a mistake by Haley. Crystal is her nemesis and automatically gains levels to match her and now has a reason to hunt her and really hate her. It may be logically impossible for a stupid assassin to track someone who's teleported but a nemesis status grants deus ex machine powers. Crystal will eventually catch up with Haley because a confrontation between a hero and her nemesis is a good story. Emotion-driven plot and hackneyed stereotype always beats up logic, reason and physics and pushes them into a ditch.

If Haley just teleported away, Crystal and Bozak would have less cause for anger and be less likely to hunt her down.

[ladysekhmetka]

::takes random +5 cookie:: I don't have any problem with what she did...

[Blackeagle]

2. Adventurers do NOT kill goblins when they're in the shower, without their weapon, armor, protection items, unpreapared, etc. And they do NOT humiliate them. Darn, it's pretty much the worst way of dying, helpless and naked before your enemy.

Um, perhaps you ought to go back and read comic 214 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0214.html), where the Order plans to kill a band of Ogres while they are eating and sleeping, unprepared and without weapons.

There seems to be quite a lot of selective moral outrage on this board today. We've seen Haley kill scores of goblins and low-level Thieves Guild members who posed even less threat to her than Crystal did right out of the shower. Some folks have said this is because Crystal is human, but I don't think that's it. There wasn't much outrage when Haley mowed down the Thieves Guild members in the fight in the basement. I think it's because Crystal has a name, and some character development. We're OK with anonymous opponents dying ignominious deaths, it can even be funny. But we are shocked, SHOCKED when it happens to a named NPC.

[The MunchKING]

Kantian Morality: her execution was not only justified, but mandatory. It was inappropriate for Haley to like doing ithowever, she should have been moved by solemn duty. Neither moral or immoral. Notably, breaking the contract is clearly immoral for Kant, if Haley actually said she agreed to it.

Worse, she got as much use out of it as she could (that's GUILD muscle hustling in on the Golem fight, and GUILD Contracts that have to be broken all to hell because of it) THEN she skipped out before HER part came due...

[Lord Seth]

I can't believe she murdered Crystal like that. :smalleek: I also can't believe that Celia thinks Crystal would give her (apparently only) weapon to Haley like that.I can believe Celia would think that. Celia's been established to be pretty stupid, or at least quite gullible.

Hrm, I have mixed feelings regarding Haley's actions. On one hand I thought Celia's bargain to make Haley pay half her gold was idiotic, so I'm definitely for Haley running off without paying it. Killing Crystal like that seemed a bit over-the-top though.

[Blackeagle]

I can believe Celia would think that. Celia's been established to be pretty stupid.

I'd say she's more ignorant than stupid. She just doesn't really know what adventurers and adventuring are like.

[Trizap]

Erm.......NO.....people please remember.........that....eh....crystal is evil, and that the thieves guild is also evil......and that Haley needs the money to free her father..........so she can't really pay their deal if she wants to free her father, that and since CRYSTAL WAS EVIL its ok, Haley's alignment hasn't changed she is still Chaotic good- this was just a purely chaotic act, not evil or neutral in any way.

[Kaytara]

I'd say she's more ignorant than stupid. She just doesn't really know what adventurers and adventuring are like.

It's not ignorance or stupidity, IMO. While it doesn't really improve the impression of Celia's wits, all it really means is that she probably took around zero ranks in Sense Motive. After all, the exact same thing happened between Haley and Roy in Origins, and Roy has a very good Wisdom score, but likewise zero ranks in Sense Motive. And Haley did max out her Bluff skill.
Belkar saw through it because he gets a +10 bonus on his Sense Motive roll due to knowing Haley so well. :D

[The Pilgrim]

Glad to see the OOTS is such in a hurry towards Giriard's Gate that they even forgot about resurrecting Roy (maybe Durkon is at it?).

Haley, oh, yeah, mean move, but totally in character for her. She is chaotic good, but is not purely chaotic good ("I'm Chaotic Good...ish").

I mean, both Roy and Lord Hinjo are "Lawful", but Roy "is trying" to be lawful and acts NG a lot (to the point that his file could be dropped to NG, as the Celestial said), while Lord Hinjo is Lawful and that's about it.

So, just like that, both Haley and Elan are Chaotic Good, but while Elan is purely Good ("I've saved you because I'm the Good Twin, not the Neutral Twin"), Haley is trying to be good, but leans towards Chaotic Neutral, and her bad side arises here and then. And that's why she has that complex about not being good enough and Good people leave her side. Bet she is not gonna tell Elan about what has just done with Crystal.

And, well, it's not the same to kill your arch-nemesis, who has sworn to kill you and in fact has been very close to (even worst, who has RUINED YOUR STYLISH HAIR), than to make pacts with devils and destroy dragon eggs. Nobody said V killing ABD was an evil act. It was about the Familicide, and I don't see Haley willing to kill Crystal's family, even if given the chance. Still I think V, without the Splice, is just Neutral.

And about breaking the treaty with the Guild... Haley is Chaotic, for starters. The truce was signed behind her back. And the other party are Rogues, they can be anything BUT Lawful, aren't guaranteed to honor the truce, either. And they just attacked Golem Castle, whose owner religiously paid the "insurance", so the thieves shown everybody how much they are willing to honor their legal contracts.

Anyway, looks that Belkar is VERY pleased by the OOTS character developments. By not killstealing on Haley, he managed to help her gain some darkside points. Must be thinking that his new "team player" stance really pays off.

[Morty]

Erm.......NO.....people please remember.........that....eh....crystal is evil, and that the thieves guild is also evil......and that Haley needs the money to free her father..........so she can't really pay their deal if she wants to free her father, that and since CRYSTAL WAS EVIL its ok, Haley's alignment hasn't changed she is still Chaotic good- this was just a purely chaotic act, not evil or neutral in any way.

Thank you for proving my point so skillfully.

[whitemane]

Damn... That's cold!

I'm trying to decide if Haley is heading towards the deep end of the alignment pool now. I mean, she did just kill Crystal in cold blood... but she also did it knowing that if she didn't, her leaving the thieves guild (again) would most certainly result in Bozok sending Crystal out to kill her.

I guess the argument can be made that by taking preemptive action with a temporary incovenience (all Bozok has to do is raise Crystal) and giving Crystal the warning NOT to pursue her, she is trying to avoid future bloodshed... but still...

The immorality of killing becomes so much more confusing in a world where it is more of an inconvenience than a permanent condition!

[Magentawolf]

Okay. Forget Haley's alignment here for a second... am I wrong for thinking that Crystal is /hot/ in that towel, there? >.>

[Code Black]

That's... somewhat anti-climactic. The last few pages have been somewhat, but this is really where it hits home.

Not to mention it's pretty vindictive for Haley. Not exactly something I thought she'd do.

[whitemane]

Okay. Forget Haley's alignment here for a second... am I wrong for thinking that Crystal is /hot/ in that towel, there? >.>

Oh, Crystal is definitely hot... But I think that Haley was hotter when she was in the towell, followed by Sabine trying to seduce Roy in the school girl outfit. Crystal comes in a paltry 3rd...

Hey Giant, any chance you can do a centerfold strip with the three of them?

[Dacia Brabant]

I for one knew what was coming when I saw the episode title, and I'm not surprised by it in the least; Haley has always been selfish and both the act and the reasoning behind it are entirely in keeping with that.

Whether it was D&D Evil or not though, well you have to ask, would a Paladin fall if she did this exact same thing for the same reasons? Keep in mind that by RAW they do not fall for committing a single Chaotic act (though enough Chaotic acts will cause them to cease to be Lawful and therefore fall, or if that single act is a gross violation of their Code of Conduct). With that in mind, then I would say it's Evil and the fact that Haley did it not just willingly but happily makes her no longer Good in my book--if morality can be chucked out the window in pursuit of personal goals, that makes you Neutral at best.

[jmucchiello]

I guess this is why Haley didn't notice the change in V. She's been brewing up revenge fantasies for a while and isn't really in the right frame of mind to consider evil all that bad. Perhaps in a day or two....

[Badgercloak]

Glorious. Simply glorious.

[Anterean]

I am not going to touch the alignment debate with a 10' pole...

But am I only one who found this strip rather anti-climatic ?

[Mando Knight]

The dish? Revenge, with a side of OWNED!

She'd better pick up the rest of Crystal's baubles while she's at it, they might even cover a few things her magic items didn't already. Barring that, they're a good source of cash. :smallamused:

[Equilibrate]

Haley has just become as bad as crystal. Now, fully half of the order of the stick is evil; Belkar, Vaarsuvius, and now Haley. What she did was no different than what Crystal would have done, and that sets Haley on the same level.

A good character would not have done what Haley just did. A neutral character would not have done it, in all likelihood. While Crystal was a killer, she was not an immediate threat to Haley. Furthermore, Haley was about to leave Greysky city, so her life would not have been under threat from Crystal in the near future, or possibly at all at any time.

It wasn't a killing to promote safety of herself or others (a good act), nor was it done in the name of legitimate justice (a neutral act); it was done for revenge, plain and simple (an evil act.)

P.S. The fact that Belkar approves of Haley's actions is a clear sign that something is very wrong with what she is doing. Maybe Norman Bates would have given it a thumbs up too, especially with the shower bit.

First, where did anyone EVER get the idea that Haley was chaotic good? She never commits any good acts. From the beginning in Xykon's dungeon she was constantly cheating her fellow party members out of their share of the loot, not to mention swindling them out of a fair share of the final treasure horde (remember the 'five ordinary, plain, non-magical rocks' ?) She was ready to run away from going to trial until Durkon tricked her into staying. And you can't count trying to save her father as a "good" act, since it's her FATHER, not some random stranger.

Chaotic Neutral characters still have an active conscience. She abandoned O'chul to the MitD, and felt guilty about it afterwards, which led her to later save Thanh from Tsukiko. Yet when she did so she didn't say "its just the right thing to do". She said she was doing it to alleviate her previous guilt. That's the actions of someone who is Chaotic Neutral with a conscience.

Finally, to quote the PHB: "A chaotic neutral character follows his own whims. He is an individualist first and last. He values his own liberty...avoids authority, resents restrictions, and challenges tradititions..." You can be chaotic neutral and kill someone "just because they got in your way", without shifting your alignment towards evil. Good characters CAN'T commit cold-blooded murder. Evil characters LOVE to commit cold-blooded murder while torturing baby puppies and listening to Celine Dion. Neutral characters CAN commit cold-blooded murder, but they usually only do it when they have a decent reason, like revenge. That's what makes you neutral, instead of evil.

[Calmness]

So that's three members of the Order evil or close to evil now. Roy better hurry...

[Estrosiath]

The smile on Belkar's face was the best part of the comic :D

[Zanaril]

There's no 'slippery slope' for Haley in regards to Good vs Neutral. Remember when the Celestial was talking to Roy? A major non-Good action like that can get you 'chucked into the Neutral bin'.

But that the Law/Chaos axis they were talking about, not the Good/Evil axis. The former is probably a lot less leanient on the Law end.

[T-O-E]

Hooray! She's dead (for now)!

[Kaytara]

First, where did anyone EVER get the idea that Haley was chaotic good?

Fair points about Haley not being terribly concerned with doing Good acts. But the reason people are assuming that Haley is Good is that we're taking her word for it - when speaking in gibberish, she calls herself "Chaotic Good! Ish!"

[dps]

I've always felt that Haley started out the comic Chaotic Neutral. She said early on that she was "Chaotic Good-ish" which I have always taken to mean that: 1) she wanted the other members of the party to think that she was Good, even though she wasn't, and that 2) even though she was neutral, most of her non-neutral actions were good, not evil. It also might mean that she wanted to be Good, but felt compelled by circumstances to be Neutral.

While leading the resistance in Azure City, she obviously moved more toward Good, but it never was clear to me whether she shifted from Neutral or not. To me, the enjoyment she clearly got out of killing Crystal make it an Evil act, but it's not enough to move her to Chaotic Evil--it just means that she's firmly back to Neutral (if she ever quit being Neutral in the first place).

Regardless of the alignment question, this was another awesome strip. The thing I liked best about it has been mentioned only by a couple of other posters, and it's that even the souls spliced to V are aware of the fourth wall. "Tell her about it off-panel" indeed. :smallbiggrin:

[Raging Gene Ray]

Well, that proves, to me, that Haley is indeed CN rather than CG, and that she is, for the most part, a ruthless b***h who is only concerned about her immediate friends and family.
It isn't inconsistent with her character though. And in a way, illustrates that Miko's problems with the Order weren't exactly unfounded.

Haley did decide to risk her life and even pay her hard stolen gold for the Azure City Resistance when she could have gotten out of there at any time and got Roy raised. In my book, that will always put her at least around Good-ish.

And this kind of "kill them before they kill you or anyone else and its okay because they're Evil" is the kind of thing Miko and even some non-Miko-like paladins would have done.

Oh, and my trademark speculation:
Bozzok learns that Haley isn't holding up her end of the deal and assumes Celia planned this all along when she set up the terms of the contract for Haley. Celia ends up paying the price (or at least being held hostage) because of Haley's actions.

[Lunaya]

Bravo, Haley! :smallbiggrin: Now if only she would tell Celia to kiss off in a similar manner.

My favorite part was Belkar's knowing smirk in the last panel. Apparently, he agrees with me.

[Kaytara]

Haley did decide to risk her life and even pay her hard stolen gold for the Azure City Resistance when she could have gotten out of there at any time and got Roy raised. In my book, that will always put her at least around Good-ish.

I'm not sure that's such a convincing argument. The reason Haley gives for not leaving earlier is insecurity and fear that she'll somehow miss Elan's return to Azure City, or find him dead, and not "I couldn't leave the Resistance when they needed me so much!"

[homeosapiens]

I love how nobody reads previous sites here, where people saying that killing Crystal was an evil act were outargumented and lost, but this is probably the way it is going on in here. Ignore is far better than lose, probably.:smallsigh:

[B9anders]

Major ethical theories and their reaction to Haley's action.

Assumptions:
1. Crystal was a professional killer, of an evil alignment
2. Crystal does not only kill other deserving, evil characters. This seems reasonable, given how much she seemed to enjoy her work.
3. Crystal would have attempted to kill Haley or those close to her for breaking the contract.

Utilitarianism (any form of modern consequentialism really): clearly justified. Crystal was a source of pretty much only pain. Her death, though a loss in the calculus, is more than set off by the lives are saved. Good action.

Kantian Morality: her execution was not only justified, but mandatory. It was inappropriate for Haley to like doing ithowever, she should have been moved by solemn duty. Neither moral or immoral. Notably, breaking the contract is clearly immoral for Kant, if Haley actually said she agreed to it.

Christian Divine Command theory: either vaguely Kantian response, or totally unacceptable (depending on the orthodoxy). If unacceptable, then so would be killing Redcloak in a pitched battle, however. Thus, this is inapposite, because in DnD killing is an acceptable solution to a serious problem.

While I respect the mercy of the board members, I think you would be hard pressed to find a intelligible moral system that condemns Haley's killing of Crystal. Most would endorse them, if not the relish with which they are performed.

Virtue ethics. And utilitarian virtue ethics.

And kant is in a bind, since he says crystal should be executed but nonetheless killing is universally wrong.

And it's not at all clear utalitarianism would endorse this. Most utalitarians would probably side with lawfulness being for the greater good of the many, so contacting the proper authorities on crystal would likely have been considered the best way to remove the threat she poses to the world.

[The Pilgrim]

First, where did anyone EVER get the idea that Haley was chaotic good?

Because she said so, actually. When characters have revealed their alignment (Roy, Elan, Belkar), it has always turned to be true. Haley being CG with strong tendency to CN, as she revealed, suits her actions quite well.


She never commits any good acts.

Dirtfarmers *cough*
Recovering Roy's corpse *cough*
Risking her life to free slaves *cough*


From the beginning in Xykon's dungeon she was constantly cheating her fellow party members out of their share of the loot, not to mention swindling them out of a fair share of the final treasure horde (remember the 'five ordinary, plain, non-magical rocks' ?) She was ready to run away from going to trial until Durkon tricked her into staying.

Yeah, this is why she is labeled as "Chaotic". But has nothing to do with the good-evil axis.


Chaotic Neutral characters still have an active conscience. She abandoned O'chul to the MitD, and felt guilty about it afterwards, which led her to later save Thanh from Tsukiko. Yet when she did so she didn't say "its just the right thing to do". She said she was doing it to alleviate her previous guilt. That's the actions of someone who is Chaotic Neutral with a conscience.

Belkar was the one who Leaved O'Chul behind (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html), not Haley. Haley even cared to inquiry where O'Chul was and wanted to go back for him, but was pressed by Belkar to keep running. Haley didn't felt guilty for it afterwards, she felt guilty for it on the spot. And this qualifies as "goodish" for me.

A CN character would have only cared about his own life, a CG character would have risked his life to save him. Haley risked her life, but being good doesn't mean to be plain suicidal.

[SoC175]

Whether it was D&D Evil or not though, well you have to ask, would a Paladin fall if she did this exact same thing for the same reasons? Keep in mind that by RAW they do not fall for committing a single Chaotic act (though enough Chaotic acts will cause them to cease to be Lawful and therefore fall, or if that single act is a gross violation of their Code of Conduct). With that in mind, then I would say it's Evil and the fact that Haley did it not just willingly but happily makes her no longer Good in my book
It was an evil act, there really can't be any diskussion about that (or better "shouldn't" because this thread proves that there can indeed be one).

A paladin who committs an evil acts falls, but that doesn't mean that they also change alignment. A paladin can committ an evil act, become a fallen paladin and still stay LG if the evil act wasn't big enough.

[Anterean]

Finishing an old nemesis? Murder? Sure.. I would like the one who has NOT done this with a good character in an RPG throw the first stone.

I have never played a good character who took joy in killing of that nemesis.

or well I did... but he fell from grace (and rightly so)

[aka Argent]

Some points -

Hailey is Chaotic Good, it's been confirmed by several official sources , but she often drifts towards Neutral. Hence her own identification of Chaotic Good-ish.

Killing someone in D&D is usually a Neutral Act. Killing someone so that they cannot be revived is mostly an Evil Act, unless the person is so EEEvil that letting them live can be considered the greater Evil. Killing innocents is always an Evil act (oh noes V!), so is Human Sacrifice (it's why classic Druids are neutral and not good, they do all this good stuff and then ritually sacrifice people in a wicker man). Killing someone you know has the means to be Rezzed, neutral.

Finally - there is the Robin Hood test for Thieves and Rangers, WWRHD (What Would Robin Hood Do?) Would Robin Hood knock on Guy of Grisborn's door, give him a message for the Sheriff, and then Kill him mercilessly knowing Sir Guy would be raised soon after? You bet your sweet bippy he would.

If it passes the classic Robin Hood test, it's not an evil act.

[Red XIV]

I'm not sure that's such a convincing argument. The reason Haley gives for not leaving earlier is insecurity and fear that she'll somehow miss Elan's return to Azure City, or find him dead, and not "I couldn't leave the Resistance when they needed me so much!"
You don't address the fact that Haley was funding the Resistance with her own gold. That would be significant for anybody, but even moreso for a person like Haley, who (1) has always placed great importance on money and (2) needs massive amounts of gold to pay off her father's captor.

Haley also could've easily stayed hidden on her own (a much safer option) instead of raising her profile by repeatedly leading raids against the hobgoblins.

[Reisender]

Major ethical theories and their reaction to Haley's action.

Assumptions:
1. Crystal was a professional killer, of an evil alignment
2. Crystal does not only kill other deserving, evil characters. This seems reasonable, given how much she seemed to enjoy her work.
3. Crystal would have attempted to kill Haley or those close to her for breaking the contract.

Utilitarianism (any form of modern consequentialism really): clearly justified. Crystal was a source of pretty much only pain. Her death, though a loss in the calculus, is more than set off by the lives are saved. Good action.

Kantian Morality: her execution was not only justified, but mandatory. It was inappropriate for Haley to like doing ithowever, she should have been moved by solemn duty. Neither moral or immoral. Notably, breaking the contract is clearly immoral for Kant, if Haley actually said she agreed to it.

Christian Divine Command theory: either vaguely Kantian response, or totally unacceptable (depending on the orthodoxy). If unacceptable, then so would be killing Redcloak in a pitched battle, however. Thus, this is inapposite, because in DnD killing is an acceptable solution to a serious problem.

While I respect the mercy of the board members, I think you would be hard pressed to find a intelligible moral system that condemns Haley's killing of Crystal. Most would endorse them, if not the relish with which they are performed.
I disagree. Allthough i never had a philosophical discussion in a foreign language, let me try to illuminate why:

Act-Utilitarianism: You're absolutely right.

Rule-Utilitarism: Haley worked on further weakening the rule "thou shall not kill", therefore proliferating harm in the long run. Furthermore, she resorted to vigilantism instead of turning to the authorities. (This argument is kind of a stretch, given the circumstances)

Kantian Morality (Or other deontological ethics): I fail to see why vigilantism should become an universal law. Keep in mind that it seems like Haley didn't murder in order to prevent her victim from killing others in the future but for revenge and in order to send a message. I'm sure Kant would deem Haleys murder an evil act.

Virtue ethics: Again, i fail to see where Haleys action was an expression of moderation and reason. This leads me to the conclusion that Aristotle would join Kant in deeming Haleys action an evil act.

Socratic ethics: Clearly an evil act. See: plat. phaid. 62c (To end a human life means acting against the will of the gods.)

[aka Argent]

Some points -

Hailey is Chaotic Good, it's been confirmed by several official sources , but she often drifts towards Neutral. Hence her own identification of Chaotic Good-ish.

Killing someone in D&D is usually a Neutral Act. Killing someone so that they cannot be revived is mostly an Evil Act, unless the person is so EEEvil that letting them live can be considered the greater Evil. Killing innocents is always an Evil act (oh noes V!), so is Human Sacrifice (it's why classic Druids are neutral and not good, they do all this good stuff and then ritually sacrifice people in a wicker man). Killing someone you know has the means to be Rezzed, neutral.

Finally - there is the Robin Hood test for Thieves and Rangers, WWRHD (What Would Robin Hood Do?) Would Robin Hood knock on Guy of Grisborn's door, give him a message for the Sheriff, and then Kill him mercilessly knowing Sir Guy would be raised soon after? You bet your sweet bippy he would.

If it passes the classic Robin Hood test, it's not an evil act.

[Mc. Lovin']

Hayley you SOB! That was awesome! As were Belkar, he's so makin up for being out of action for that long

[Silverraptor]

Wow. Belkar must be happy. First V now Haley. Who's next?:smallamused::smallconfused:

[aka Argent]

I disagree. Allthough i never had a philosophical discussion in a foreign language, let me try to illuminate why:

Act-Utilitarianism: You're absolutely right.

Rule-Utilitarism: Haley worked on further weakening the rule "thou shall not kill", therefore proliferating harm in the long run. (This argument is kind of a stretch, given the circumstances)

Kantian Morality (Or other deontological ethics): I fail to see why vigilantism should become an universal law. Keep in mind that it seems like Haley didn't murder in order to prevent her victim from killing others in the future but for revenge and in order to send a message. I'm sure Kant would deem Haleys murder an evil act.

Virtue ethics: Again, i fail to see where Haleys action was an expression of moderation and reason. This leads me to the conclusion that Aristotle would join Kant in deeming Haleys action an evil act.

Socratic ethics: Clearly an evil act. See: plat. phaid. 62c (To end a human life means acting against the will of the gods.)

But does killing someone in a D&D world mean the same as killing in our world? When Raise Dead is possible, being killed does not actually End a person's life it only delays a portion of it. To give the equivalent nature for the act of murder in the two worlds, you have to not just kill them but kill them so they Cannot be Revived. In our world, that is automatic, in OOTS' world, that is conditional.

The majority of the population - the poor, the weak, the unconnected - will qualify because of they plain cannot afford a diamond, never will afford a diamond, to be able to have the spell cast. But there is a subclass - Named NPCs and PCs - for whom death is not an ending but an inconvenience. The morality of killing them is different, death to them is the same as putting a normal person into the Hospital.

So while making your morality case, realize that the world we are talking about does not run parallel to ours.

[Merryjest]

IF there is anything that surprised me from this thread is the concept that people are still using Immanuel Kant's ridiculous and contrived 'philosophy' as moral compass.

[Morgan Wick]

:smalleek:...wow... I wasn't expecting that from Haley. This is going to backfire on Haley later.

I would think so, or else the existence of Celia's deal is pointless from a plot perspective.

[Reisender]

But does killing someone in a D&D world mean the same as killing in our world? When Raise Dead is possible, being killed does not actually End a person's life it only delays a portion of it. To give the equivalent nature for the act of murder in the two worlds, you have to not just kill them but kill them so they Cannot be Revived. In our world, that is automatic, in OOTS' world, that is conditional.

The majority of the population - the poor, the weak, the unconnected - will qualify because of they plain cannot afford a diamond, never will afford a diamond, to be able to have the spell cast. But there is a subclass - Named NPCs and PCs - for whom death is not an ending but an inconvenience. The morality of killing them is different, death to them is the same as putting a normal person into the Hospital.

So while making your morality case, realize that the world we are talking about does not run parallel to ours.
You're making a valid point there.
But please note that i'm argueing on behalf of real life-ethics. The reason for me to join this discussion was that i was irritated by the reasoning by some of the readers here who were easily deeming Haleys actions just. That stroke me as highly unethical so i had to drop my 2 cents.

That said, i think that my reasoning is still valid if you replace "murder" by "beating someone up so hard they need a fortune to join the breathing again."

BTW: I also think that DnD-ethics are not compatible with our ethics. In my opinion, DnD-ethics are vastly unethical.

[Lord Seth]

First, where did anyone EVER get the idea that Haley was chaotic good? She never commits any good acts.You mean trying to help the Paladins in Azure City, helping out the dirt farmers, staying around as part of the Resistance, or trying to help get Roy resurrected, are not good acts?


From the beginning in Xykon's dungeon she was constantly cheating her fellow party members out of their share of the loot, not to mention swindling them out of a fair share of the final treasure horde (remember the 'five ordinary, plain, non-magical rocks' ?)Yes, because a character should be judged entirely on what they did in the earliest times in the comic, before the characters were entirely fleshed out or developed.


She was ready to run away from going to trial until Durkon tricked her into staying.So? If someone came out of nowhere and said you needed to face trial for something you didn't do (it was all Elan) because it was against the law in a country you've never been to, why would you want to go with them? I found her reaction far more reasonable than Roy's.


Chaotic Neutral characters still have an active conscience. She abandoned O'chul to the MitD,Only out of necessity, and quite reluctantly. Had they gone back for him they wouldn't have had any chance of making it to the boat (they hadn't known it had already launched). And she had the full intention of saving him, it was Belkar who threw him away and by doing so forced Haley to leave him behind.


and felt guilty about it afterwards,She felt guilty about it on the spot.


which led her to later save Thanh from Tsukiko. Yet when she did so she didn't say "its just the right thing to do". She said she was doing it to alleviate her previous guilt. That's the actions of someone who is Chaotic Neutral with a conscience.I don't see how that's Chaotic Neutral in any way. The whole "haunted by a memory of something you regret" is something that can fit most alignments, honestly.


Finally, to quote the PHB: "A chaotic neutral character follows his own whims. He is an individualist first and last. He values his own liberty...avoids authority, resents restrictions, and challenges tradititions..." You can be chaotic neutral and kill someone "just because they got in your way", without shifting your alignment towards evil. Good characters CAN'T commit cold-blooded murder. Evil characters LOVE to commit cold-blooded murder while torturing baby puppies and listening to Celine Dion. Neutral characters CAN commit cold-blooded murder, but they usually only do it when they have a decent reason, like revenge. That's what makes you neutral, instead of evil.I'll admit that Haley's action seems to be stretching the limits of Chaotic Good if not going beyond it, but I don't see how one act automatically disqualifies her from being Chaotic Good.

The only other examples you've listed were at the start of the comic, where I will admit Haley was more Chaotic Neutral, but she seems to have shifted into Chaotic Good.

[motub]

.... Are there any cookies left over in the quiet corner?

Ooh, oatmeal!

*munches on an oatmeal cookie and thinks how soothingly it crunches*

Anyway, what I liked about this strip was, that after the big reveal from the last strip (Elan Grows Up), everyone-- or at least V, who seems to consider hirself the most "adult" of the party-- has to start treating him like an adult. It wasn't even that Elan challenged V, but that V had to give a reasonable rationale for hir position in order to win the "argument", as if shi was having a difference of opinion with another rational adult, which was just great (since that other rational adult was Elan, of all people).

I really enjoyed that. I also enjoyed the fact that it seems to be catching-- it's been a long time since we've seen Haley act directly in her own best interest as she judged those interests, without reference to "the circumstances", or what any party members or affiliates would think of those actions. No matter what all those people in the main room (without cookies) think about it, I was glad to see her doing some planning for herself alone. And the fight scene was just ... cool. Haley kicks butt. Don't like the hair, though. Maybe it'll grow on me (no pun intended).

I'm also glad that Belkar not only remembered Mr. Scruffy (whom I had, to my shame, forgotten), but actually seems to care about him enough to go back and make sure he got him. As a cat person, I approve :smallsmile:.

I'm glad Haer(t)a is gone from the splice, too-- the two remaining seem much less interested in actively prodding V to evil deeds (like killing party members because they "snubbed" hir), which is kind of a relief in several senses.

All in all, it was like a satisfying meal of "comfort food"-- not precisely exciting as such, but warming, familiar and more than adequate to the need.

I expect a rather extravagant "dessert" to tie up the few remaining loose ends before we head back into the thick of the main plot, which will be a good thing, as I'm starting to wonder, a bit more than idly, just what Team Evil has been up to lately....

[Carteeg_Struve]

I can't believe the debate is that complicated.

Listen... everyone. Dividing D&D-ethics and Real World ethics can be put aside. There is no variation here between the two that matters in this case. Haley had every right to do what she did not because she was a main character, not because Crystal was aligned evil, not because death is a temporary thing for those with cash and a divine caster on hand, and not because the plot line had served its purpose. Haley was in the lawfully-to-chaotically good right to slaughter her for one very important and crystal clear (no pun intended) reason.



Crystal.

Ruined.

Haley's.

Hair!



End of debate. Time to lock the thread. Discussion over. Thank you.

[Rhuna_Coppermane]

...What the hell?

That came out of nowhere.

No it didn't. I considered it a little anticlimactic, but Haley killing Crystal surprises me not at all. I just expected a little more drama out of it. I loved the juxtaposition of evil psycho Belkar going back for his cat and usually nice Haley going back to commit coldblooded murder.

[derfenrirwolv]

Good acts by Hailey

1) Helping the dirt farmers without any expectation of reward
2) Spending her entire fortune (or a good chunk of it) on the resistance.
3) Leading resistance raids at the potential cost of her own life to free enslaved strangers, from a foreign nation... a nation that had illegally imprisoned her.

If she was just there waiting for Elan, she could have easily stolen enough supplies for herself and belkar without running into Tusiko and the kindergarden brigade of undead every other week. She was freeing people at the risk of her own life because it was the right thing to do. To me, that far, FAR outweighs treating a known evil human the same way every Rogue treats suspected with good cause evil goblins... hit em when they don't expect you.

Hailey is also the only member of the order of the stick who have stuck their family at the BACK of the priority list for saving the world. V and Roy have both taken their eye off of the ball in that regard, Hailey's never spent the parties time trying to get dad out when a gates been in danger.


Re: V cutting Elan off. Remember that each second elan talks is LITERALY a moment (or 2) in hell for V.

[Bedinsis]

Oh my... I maybe realized something
If Vaarsuvius has a limited time during which s/he can teleport, it means s/he's planning to give up the soul splice.:smallsmile:
...which means that after the teleport, they'll be at the next gate, with Vaarsuvius free of soul splices, and the fiends ready to collect their debt.:smalleek:
Or maybe Vaarsuvius wasn't referring to that s/he was about to give up the splice.:smalleek:

[Shadic]

There's no 'slippery slope' for Haley in regards to Good vs Neutral. Remember when the Celestial was talking to Roy? A major non-Good action like that can get you 'chucked into the Neutral bin'. And even in mechanical D&D terms, that kind of pivotal, major action is exactly what fuels an alignment change. Cold-blooded, murderous revenge is an Evil act. Which, balanced with her Good actions, makes her Neutral. And Chaotic is pretty much intrinsic to her character ('My Daddy was a First Edition Thief').
Here's a tip: Roy's action was leaving a Chaotic GOOD character to die, simply because Elan annoyed Roy. This is killing an evil character because they've stated several times (And once almost did) their intent to kill Haley.


So yeah, we just witnessed our second real OOTS alignment change. (The first was V going from Neutral to Evil. Hir ethical axis is debatable...probably Neutral, making hir NE right now).
Evil? For a Rogue to sneak up on an Evil character and kill them? That's hilarious.

[Zombie Nixon]

I'm glad crystal is dead, otherwise she would have showed up sometime later and wasted more of everyone's time

[Dagren]

Whoah, I've missed quite a few pages here!

I can't believe she murdered Crystal like that. :smalleek: I also can't believe that Celia thinks Crystal would give her (apparently only) weapon to Haley like that.Simple answer: Celia is a moron.

Not to mention that the term 'cold-blooded' murder keeps popping up. I would hazard a guess that this was anything but 'cold-blooded'. There were plenty of emotions going on at the time.Now to me, the phrase 'cold blooded murder' refers to any killing outside of combat (Executions, assassinations, etc.), not anything to do with how emotional the motivation is (it doesn't mean 'premeditated', nor is it the opposite of 'heat of the moment'). By that definition, this certainly qualifies, as Crystal is unarmed and doesn't strike back once.

P.S. The fact that Belkar approves of Haley's actions is a clear sign that something is very wrong with what she is doing. Maybe Norman Bates would have given it a thumbs up too, especially with the shower bit.Belkar also approved of Roy letting Sam and her father live, and of Shojo mocking Roy. I guess this means Roy and Shojo are both evil now too, huh? And let's not forget, he also made the trains run on time. :smalltongue:


The funniest part is that Krystal did tell Haley she could borrow her knife so technically Haley said the plain truth to Celia. :smallbiggrin:Well, isn't it always the case that the best lies are those composed entirely of the truth?

It doesn't mean that Haley is evil now, but she defiantely did an evil thing. I can't even remember Belkar killing someone unprepared.Really (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0539.html)?

That was a mistake by Haley. Crystal is her nemesis and automatically gains levels to match her and now has a reason to hunt her and really hate her. It may be logically impossible for a stupid assassin to track someone who's teleported but a nemesis status grants deus ex machine powers. Crystal will eventually catch up with Haley because a confrontation between a hero and her nemesis is a good story. Emotion-driven plot and hackneyed stereotype always beats up logic, reason and physics and pushes them into a ditch.See, what I think you're missing is that was the confrontation between the hero and her nemesis.

[Porthos]

.... Are there any cookies left over in the quiet corner?

Ooh, oatmeal!

*munches on an oatmeal cookie and thinks how soothingly it crunches*

Yep, still plenty of cookies for everyone! :smallcool:

Personally what I found hilarious about today's comic was the Spliced Souls snarky comments about how V being a Taxi Service was perfectly alright and that he should keep the meter running for as long as possible. :smalltongue:

[Estrosiath]

I can't believe the debate is that complicated.

Crystal.

Ruined.

Haley's.

Hair!





You know, this actually made more sense than the endless debate raging over the six preceding pages!

[Volkov]

Haley is so going to get enough bonus xp for a free level in assassin for that.

[snafu]

So, am I reading this right?

Gangster A and Gangster B have quarrelled. After a great deal of violence and bloodshed, a peace is agreed and their differences are more or less settled. Not fully satisfied with this deal, Gangster A goes back on the agreement and kills Gangster B in a surprise attack.

Where have I seen that before? Oh yes. It was the ending of The Godfather. Haley just transitioned from a Robin Hood figure to a Michael Corleone.

As I recall, Michael Corleone began for the best of reasons. He was an American hero, decorated in the Second World War. He'd been completely outside the Family business, not involved in anything, the black sheep of the family, for years. He only got mixed up in it again because he felt it was his duty to his father. So he went and shot Sollozzo and McCluskey during the peace talks. And then much later, after the ensuing all-out war, and after the peace was finally agreed and after the death of his father, he organised the simultaneous murders of every rival Don.

By the end of the next movie he's shot his own brother.

By the end of the third he's had the Pope killed.

Michael Corleone's character arc was that of a good man becoming a monster, step by step, with a justification for every fresh atrocity along the way. I'd think this was awesome if we hadn't spent the last month watching V do just that.

Still, it's a total hoot seeing the butterfly girl come over so spectacularly naive ;-)

(Oh, and there shold be some sweet bonus xp for killing off your nemesis like that?)

[Edhelras]

I love alignment debates, if one is able to keep it civil and not get to worked up about it.

In my view, Haley's act was not particularly evil. After all, she took out a major source of undisputable evil, and she had some pretty good reasons for it as well. If she had been a paladin, it would perhaps have been her duty to eliminate someone like Crystal (but then, of course, she would never have been able to get this close by mocking an alliance or cease-fire, like Haley did. She would never have been allowed to give in to Celia's agreement in the first place).

All right, if you insist, you might be right as a player or DM to call this murder "somewhat evil". If this act came on top of lots of other sudden murders-with-a-smirk it might call for an alignment change. But I think a DM should think twice before forcing a player to change into evil alignment based on such an act alone. From a PC point of view (mind you, all PCs ought to be of the Good or Neutral alignments, if you want to follow the intentions of the alignment system) Crystal is vermin, and because of her many direct assaults on the PCs, she's fair game. If Haley can't kill Crystal - who the heck can she really kill?

Some people bring real world moralities into this, and, as always, they end up getting lost. Or, they end up with conclusions that obviously wouldn't work in-game. That would make the game unplayable for them. Because they don't or won't understand that DnD morality is something different than RL morality.

Of course, in the real world, killling is evil whichever your victim is. There are no legitimate targets in the real world, even though some people might say so. But people who have killed always are marked by it, either by regret or by denial.
Whereas in DnD, killing stuff is one of the major objects of the game. If you can't kill creatures (even civilized, but evil, humanoids), you can't play the game.

The reason for this discrepancy between RL and DnD is simple:
In the real world, you are just one of billions of people. You, yes you, are worth exactly the same as each and every other person on the planet. Whatever happens to you has exactly the same value as if it happens to a guy across the globe. Even though you feel that you're the good guy, that's basically just a subjective illusion, as proved by the fact that even the worst guys in history felt like that. I.e. you can't trust your own estimate of your own goodiness (even though you may decide that your own estimate is in your best interest to listen to).

In DnD, it's opposite. In DnD, the game defines from the outset that you're the hero. You're the good guy. Whatever happens in the game, the object of the game is to help you remain the centre around which the world turns, the winner, the one who does good. In contrast to other games, most DnD sessions don't have one particular player as the winner, rather, all the players are supposed to win against the NPCs of the game, against the challenges the DM pits against them.

In DnD, the DM does a poor job if one of the PCs is snuffed away by an unreasonably high-level encounter and no way out (and no fun way of reviving the PC). In the real world, we all know that the good guys can suddenly be killed by a road-side bomb, end of story for him, game over. In the real world, no-one is a hero in the sense that we all are in DnD. In the real world, we're all expendable (contrary to Hollywood movies, where regularly the fat guy or the guy with glasses or the black guy is the one you know will be killed before the hero kills the mass murderer).

The good-evil axis in DnD is not only different from the RL axis - it hardly exists in the real world because everything in RL is much more complex, inter-dependent, viewpoint-dependent, subjective. If one wants to engage in alignment debates in DnD, one would to best to read and speculate about what the game defines as "good" and "evil", and then simply... accept that, as a part of the game mechanics. Just as you have to accept that Sneak Attacks are something Rogues do, not Fighters.

Interestingly enough, the Law-Chaos-axis is much simpler to translate into RL situations. Interestingly too, in the real world, some lawful or chaotic actions are co-labelled with either good or evil, whereas in DnD, they can be more purely viewed as lawful or chaotic.
Like stealing - in the RL it's almost universally evil, or at least "bad", unless it's part of a revolutionary or Robin Hood-like struggle to counter unjust exploitation of the poor. Whereas in DnD, a Good-aligned Rogue might steal from wealthy merchants - and NOT distribute to the poor - without being really evil, she's just chaotic and disrespectful of the petty nuances of private property.

[Doug Lampert]

You don't seek out fair fights when you're eliminating a mortal threat.

Especially if you're a rogue with a chaotic alignment.

Mortal threat doesn't eliminate the need (if any) for a fair fight.

Kill someone from ambush, and their friends/allies/family may well ambush you, and in the real world pretty well everyone is vulnerable to that.

Kill an ambassador or someone under a flag of truce and negotiations to end both that fight and any future fights with people who know about it become more or less impossible on any terms but your side surrenders unconditionally.

Beat someone up by hitting them when they're not ready, and why shouldn't they return the favor the next day?

But almost none of that applies here. Both the pragmatic and the ethical reasons to fight fair are mostly non-issues.

Haley isn't interested in a peaceful resolution with Crystal.

Crystal, and her friends and allies, already don't believe in fair fights, them ambushing their enemies is already the expected method, so no worries that they'll stop fighting fair, they never started in the first place.

Haley isn't particularly interested in, or desirous of, a peaceful resolution with Crystal's friends and allies. And given that Haley is planning to break her deal with them the feeling is likely to be mutual regardless of whether or not Haley attacks Crystal. In fact, if Haley hadn't killed Crystal those friends and allies might well have sent Crystal after Haley anyway.

Saying fair fights are for sport or that fair fighting doesn't apply when your trying to kill someone misses the point. In the real world even wars have rules, and they have rules for good reasons that apply even in lethal fights (consider that neither the Germans nor the Soviets used chemical weapons on each other, neither regime was particularly ethical or honorable, and both were genocidally murderous much of the time, but they could still agree that there were good reasons not to use some methods).

But those rules don't apply to ALL lethal fights. They apply for reasons, and the only reason any of those rules would apply here is that someone ELSE might hear that Haley broke her truce with the guild and conclude that her word isn't good and that they therefor shouldn't bother with a truce with her.

[Edhelras]

As I recall, Michael Corleone began for the best of reasons. He was an American hero, decorated in the Second World War. He'd been completely outside the Family business, not involved in anything, the black sheep of the family, for years. He only got mixed up in it again because he felt it was his duty to his father. So he went and shot Sollozzo and McCluskey during the peace talks. And then much later, after the ensuing all-out war, and after the peace was finally agreed and after the death of his father, he organised the simultaneous murders of every rival Don.

By the end of the next movie he's shot his own brother.

By the end of the third he's had the Pope killed.


That's the point of character development - it rarely depends on one single act. You can do quite a bit of good and evil and neutral, in order to change alignment you should either do something momentous, or you should repeatedly choose actions that differ from your original alignment.
Micheal Corleone didn't turn evil in that restaurant - it happened some time later because his "player" decided to. A turn of the plot might have led him back into the neutral alignment (I don't think that character was ever truly "good").

[Gamgee]

Another one bites the dust. I wonder how long it will be until we see a chaotic evil Roy, or a Neutral Evil Durkon. Hell a Lawful Evil Celia. It seems to be the fate of all of them to fall from "good".

I like this strip as much as I hate it. I like it because of the excellent plot and writing as well as timing. I dislike it because it foreshadows bad things. I wonder what Roy is going to think of all this.

[Quorothorn]

EPIC WIN.

I am so happy right now with these past few comics. I'm going crazy.

[AyuVince]

Oh no! Haley brutally executed her mortal enemy, a personal rival who has stalked her for years and threatened multiple times that she would murder her. How could Haley *DO* that?! I want Haley to hug unicorns and throw flowers all the time!

Seriously, nice Kill Bill moment there, Giant. There are likable villains with character depth, and there are jerks whom you'd like to see dead. Crystal falls into the latter category. Good riddance :smallcool:

[civver]

Would have been more meaningful had death not been temporary.

Edit: Replying to a thread on this forum is aggravating.

[Kaed]

Oh no! Haley brutally executed her mortal enemy, a personal rival who has stalked her for years and threatened multiple times that she would murder her. How could Haley *DO* that?! I want Haley to hug unicorns and throw flowers all the time!

Seriously, nice Kill Bill moment there, Giant. There are likable villains with character depth, and there are jerks whom you'd like to see dead. Crystal falls into the latter category. Good riddance :smallcool:

Agreed. Also, awesome Kerrigan art there ;D

[JustRain]

Another one bites the dust. I wonder how long it will be until we see a chaotic evil Roy, or a Neutral Evil Durkon. Hell a Lawful Evil Celia. It seems to be the fate of all of them to fall from "good".

Meh. The day Elan and Durkon will turn evil will also be the day the Spice Girls will confess about their secret gaming club.

[FoE]

All I know is that revenge is sweet and what Haley killing Crystal was totally awesome. Evil? Maybe. Outstanding? Definitely.

I'm just glad that Haley didn't comply with Celia's stupid deal.

[The MunchKING]

First, where did anyone EVER get the idea that Haley was chaotic good? She never commits any good acts. From the beginning in Xykon's dungeon she was constantly cheating her fellow party members out of their share of the loot, not to mention swindling them out of a fair share of the final treasure horde (remember the 'five ordinary, plain, non-magical rocks' ?)

Hey she told them the 100% unvarnished truth on that one. Far more Lawful than any con I'D have run. :smalltongue:


She was ready to run away from going to trial until Durkon tricked her into staying. And you can't count trying to save her father as a "good" act, since it's her FATHER, not some random stranger.

What abotu the dirt farmers? They were about as Random as strangers get and Haley didn't even want a reward.

[Rotipher]

I think what's being overlooked here is that turning Evil for a Chaotic person doesn't happen in the same way as it does for a Lawful person. A Chaotic person who turns Evil doesn't do so because of a single act, but because of a change in his or her underlying attitude.

Being Chaotic means you don't necessarily maintain moral consistency, the way a Lawful person does. If a Lawful character decides to torture a single prisoner, his alignment may shift to Lawful Evil, because he's effectively re-set his standard of right and wrong: by torturing one prisoner, he's declaring a belief it's always okay to torture prisoners. But a Chaotic person's morality is situational and flexible; torturing Prisoner A, especially in the heat of anger or frustration, doesn't necessarily indicate he's more likely to torture Prisoner B (although he might, if he enjoys it the first time).

Haley didn't kill Crystal because she suddenly decided that murdering women in the shower is acceptable, or because she no longer thinks life has value, or because she now believes (like Haerta) that everyone who ever crossed her deserves to die. She killed Crystal because she knows Crystal -- knows her, and hates her, and knows that Crystal won't ever stop trying to kill her and anyone she cares about -- and because, for Crystal and only for Crystal, Haley's act of murder felt like righteous personal retribution. Crystal may well be the one and only person on Stickworld that Haley would do such a thing to, and killing her does not mean that all Haley's moral values have suddenly been revoked. It was an Evil act, but it was not the act of an Evil character, merely a Chaotic Good-Ish character whose personal view of right and wrong is imperfect, and allows for moral lapses where this one individual, a recurrent foil and thorn in her side, is concerned.

Now, if Haley goes on to murder Sabine in a similar fashion, gloating over her other nemesis's pain and humiliation all the while, then that would indicate a change for the worse in our redhead's alignment. But I wouldn't brand her Evil for this one offense -- quite possibly the only situtation that would move Haley to murder someone outright -- any more than a man who has an illicit one-night-stand can automatically be expected to abandon his children, embezzle money at work, betray his country, etc.

[liooil2000]

Crystal's death was so unexpected,
but in my opinion it was a good kill, even though haley was double crossing Crystal. I'm sure Crystal would've done the same or something like that.
I don't think taking Crystal's dagger/short sword was a good idea though.

[Quorothorn]

I am not going to touch the alignment debate with a 10' pole...

But am I only one who found this strip rather anti-climatic ?

Awesomely so, yes.

[Haruki-kun]

....is ANYBODY on the good team still good?

[Elan man]

The was awsome kill

[enarch3t]

It seems Haley may soon find herself in the deep end of the alignment pool too. I do not believe killing a highlevel assassin to ever be an evil act, I mean she's already admitted to killing someone on the toilet.

But hey, what's the point of killing a personal rival if you can't enjoy it?

Does Belkar know what she did? Love the smile.

[Reverent-One]

....is ANYBODY on the good team still good?

Yep, Roy, Elan, Durkon, and Haley. V's probably been neutral from the get-go, and Belkar's always been his chaotic evil self. In Haley's case, using ambush tatics does not make one evil.

[Quorothorn]

....is ANYBODY on the good team still good?

Yes. Roy, Elan, Durkon, Haley, Vaarsuvius, etc.

Edit: ninja'd. Very well played, Reverent-One.

[shakes019]

I didn't like the strip. To me, Haley's killing of Crystal was inconsistent with her character. If she had snuck in and stole Crystal's stuff and left a nasty note, I could have bought it easily. I can totally get behind her not agreeing to the "contract" with the thieves' guild. I could even go with her wanting to kill Bozzok in combat way back when.

But for her to murder Crystal like that seemed excessive.

As to argument that DnD characters consistently go into evil creatures' homes and routinely murder them: I think it's a poor DM who gives such a small amount of backstory to an adventure. When you look at the Dungeon of Dorukan adventure that started this off, the characters were seeking out a lich who was responsible for killing many good people, and the adversaries that they met up with were guards and mercenaries.

If I was planning to fan-wank this, I would consider that Haley's action is indicative of the lack of moral compass that Roy represents. I would also be disappointed if this did not have some ramifications with regard to Haley's relationships with both Roy and Elan.

[Dagren]

....is ANYBODY on the good team still good?Of course. Belkar, V, Haley, etc.

[Zevox]

....is ANYBODY on the good team still good?
The same four as always have been. Roy, Durkon, Elan, and Haley. V's the only one who has undergone an alignment change in this story thus far, and that was from something-Neutral (likely True Neutral, in my opinion) to the same somthing-Evil, and it isn't even clear whether that will outlast the Soul Splice (though in my opinion, the indications we have say it will).

Zevox

[Joringel]

what bothers me most, is that shaley really seemed to enjoy killing crystal. if a good character kills an evil character, he still should not enjoy it. no matter how many peronal conflicts there may be.

What, seriously?

Think about Roy for a moment. Has Roy *not* enjoyed a single beating he's dished out, lethal or non? And yet he doesn't register a blip on the malevometer?

Are you seriously saying that when the Order of the Stick finally beats Xykon once and for all, if they're happy about his death, they're all of a sudden all evil?

[PId6]

....is ANYBODY on the good team still good?
Yep: Celia (for now), Elan, Durkon, Roy (soon), Haley in that order. Not much different from Strip No. 1 (besides the Celia part).

[PId6]

I didn't like the strip. To me, Haley's killing of Crystal was inconsistent with her character. If she had snuck in and stole Crystal's stuff and left a nasty note, I could have bought it easily. I can totally get behind her not agreeing to the "contract" with the thieves' guild. I could even go with her wanting to kill Bozzok in combat way back when.

But for her to murder Crystal like that seemed excessive.
What you're ignoring here is that she knows Crystal will be rez'd in a few hours tops, so it's really almost the same as just sneaking in and stealing her stuff, except Haley also gets to inconvenientize Crystal a bit more and put the Thieves Guild out of 5000gp.

[Celisasu]

Actually this seems very in character to me. Haley has always seen violence as an acceptible solution to problems, has always not given a damn about contracts, and has shown a level of ruthlessness that's higher than everyone except Belkar and V's. Plus she hates the thieves guild. I'm honestly not surprised by the fact that she pulled out of a contract that she was forced into in the first place.

Look at previous situations involving Haley. There was the Bozak incident where she was quite willing to kill him even after Celia's negotiations. Or some incidents with Miko. Her solution to the test of the mind at the Oracles lair. Her problem with the Linear Guild had more to do with them probably coming back from the dead than anything against actually killing them. She was willing to drop Belkar when he became a "liability". Where Roy hangs onto Belkar out of a belief in loyalty, Haley hangs onto him because he's useful. An important distinction between a good and neutral outlook on a fellow party member. Haley routinely straddles the line between Chaotic Good and Chaotic Neutral.

Haley just doesn't take the personal pleasure that Belkar does in hurting others(Crystal is a special case, as they've hated each other for a long time so it's personal) and it takes more to set her off than it does V. But she's always had these traits.

[The Blackbird]

....is ANYBODY on the good team still good?

When Roy totally beat the crap out of Miko, he enjoyed it. Later it was frowned upon by the Deva in the upper planes but he still got in. Enjoying it was not evil but it was frowned at, same thing here.

[malakim2099]

....is ANYBODY on the good team still good?

Elan
Roy
Durkon

Oh, and Haley. Thought I'd forget that one, didn't ya? :smallamused:

Seriously, why is it "an evil act" for a CG rogue to ambush and kill an evil assassin that has tried to kill her in the past (and nearly succeeded), and has sworn vengeance against her?

This isn't a question of killing someone who just was in the way (such as Belkar might) or killing all of Crystal's relatives (as V did with the dragon). This is just a simple, one-on-one, bushwhack because, as Haley said, Crystal was dumb enough to announce what she was doing... and Haley made it perfectly clear what she really thought of the Thieves' Guild.

Maybe Haley enjoyed it a bit TOO much... but she's not a paladin. She's a mostly CG ROGUE. Ambushing evil is what she DOES.

Cripes. What's next? Durkon can't be good because he boozes up on ale? Elan can't be good because he's annoying? :smalltongue:

[Tharianor]

Very good strip the order is going to the western continent - Girard's Gate ( I hope V waits for Roy's resurrection).
I din't think Haley's actions were strange or bad, I'm to blame?

Also Elan growt is nice! Satnd for your belifs I say!

So I also won't touch the alignment debate with a 10 foot pole..



Yeah, I'm finding that amusing as well.

Oh well, guess I'll have to be amused in my corner over here.

BTW, there's plenty of room over here for all of the people who want to sit this one out. Plenty of room for everyone, really. :smallwink:

PS: We have cookies over here. Just so everyone knows. :smalltongue:

Did you say cookies, do you have chocolete ones?
Me comes in the corner!

Also I imagine that over us on an high chair there is Rich who knows were the carachters' development is going and has fun trowing this little bombs in the forum. Also he snikers.

Edit: On a side note, where is UndeadPrince I want to know his point of view

[nonamearisto]

First, where did anyone EVER get the idea that Haley was chaotic good? She never commits any good acts. From the beginning in Xykon's dungeon she was constantly cheating her fellow party members out of their share of the loot, not to mention swindling them out of a fair share of the final treasure horde (remember the 'five ordinary, plain, non-magical rocks' ?) She was ready to run away from going to trial until Durkon tricked her into staying. And you can't count trying to save her father as a "good" act, since it's her FATHER, not some random stranger.

Chaotic Neutral characters still have an active conscience. She abandoned O'chul to the MitD, and felt guilty about it afterwards, which led her to later save Thanh from Tsukiko. Yet when she did so she didn't say "its just the right thing to do". She said she was doing it to alleviate her previous guilt. That's the actions of someone who is Chaotic Neutral with a conscience.

Finally, to quote the PHB: "A chaotic neutral character follows his own whims. He is an individualist first and last. He values his own liberty...avoids authority, resents restrictions, and challenges traditions..." You can be chaotic neutral and kill someone "just because they got in your way", without shifting your alignment towards evil. Good characters CAN'T commit cold-blooded murder. Evil characters LOVE to commit cold-blooded murder while torturing baby puppies and listening to Celine Dion. Neutral characters CAN commit cold-blooded murder, but they usually only do it when they have a decent reason, like revenge. That's what makes you neutral, instead of evil.


In truth, a chaotic neutral character cannot murder either. They can kill in self-defense, and they can persue their own non-evil desires, but they cannot murder.

While it is not the official authority on the issue, this site is a very good guide to D&D alignment as of the 3.5 edition:

http://easydamus.com/chaoticneutral.html

You might argue that Crystal was not an innocent, and therefore, she could be killed, but he death was a murder, which only evil characters do. Haley also killed out of revenge, not self-preservation. It was murder because it was obviously premeditated and intentional. In fact, it might even be as bad as first-degree murder...

You actually CANNOT kill people just because they get in your way and remain neutral in the D&D settings... that is chaotic evil you are thinking about... and Hayley has crossed that line. She probably only ever does good for those whom she has a vested emotional or financial interest in. I'm sure that things like charity, mercy, or, as we see here, forgiveness, are unknown to her, and if these characteristics ever manifest, it is only due to pressure from another character. Keep in mind that she wanted to sell Samantha into slavery once she heard of the profits involved, and only resisted it because of Roy's pressuring her not to do evil.

I believe that Belkar may be a bad influence on her, too. She has spend far too much time around him, and with her already weak chaotic neutral moral system, a little push from an evil party member might be all it took to push her down... even if it is by indirect, subconscious means. She might have been a subconscious supporter of Belkar's methods; even though she expressed outrage at a couple of Belkar's murders, she never took any more action than to condemn him the first time, and expel him from the order (which was forgotten about, due to the oracle's enchantment on his dwelling) the second time.

While she might have been mad at Belkar for killing, this seems unlikely, due to the fact that she just committed murder herself. She was probably more mad at the fact that his indiscriminate killings would result in unwanted consequences for the party.

[Gilby]

Wow Nice, Haley killing Crystal in cold blood. Maybe Belkar rubbed off on her? Can you say alignment shift? Them being nemesis' is a mute point.

[BillyJimBoBob]

Comments like these are bothering me for quite some time now. I have the strong feeling that the ethical compasses of some readers are quite messed up.Seriously! I'm glad to see that there is someone on these boards who agrees with me that killing your evil rival who has often attempted and often threatened to kill you can in no way be seen as a morally ambiguous act, much less an evil or an unethical act.

Cold blooded murder can never be justified by circumstances or any previous behaviour of the victim. Allthough by eliminating another bad guy and therefore increasing the overall happiness-outcome of the oots-world, Haleys act in itself is an evil deed for sure. (Both from a deontological as well as a virtue ethics point of view.)
I must say it really disturbs me how people think it's somewhat ok, an act of proactive self-defense or even "just" when Haley goes all Michael Corleone on her enemies.Wait wait wait wait... What did you just say? Damnit, I take all the nice things I was just thinking about you back! Who are you kidding? You really think that Haley should have left that back stabbing (literally) bitch alive to seek Haley's life at the time and place of Crystal's choosing? Not to mention the haircut! Are you out of your mind?!? And what's with this "cold blooded murder" bit? First, Crystal had just stepped out of a warm shower. Second, Haley and Crystal have shared a burning hatred since they met. Third, Haley was not at all cold about killing Crystal, she relished it.

Haley isn't evil, not from this act. This was the settling of a score that was going to happen, was destined to happen, one way or the other. Haley was just a step ahead of Crystal. We'll see if Bozzok raises Crystal, he has a lot of bills to pay, a Thieves Guild to rebuild, and Crystal is probably the largest threat to his power base if she decides to stick a knife in him. But if he does I hope she dies in a similar fashion in the future, and hopefully out of the reach of friends with access to Raise Dead spells.

[nonamearisto]

The very fact that Hayley relished in the killing only serves to make her evil act all the worse. She didn't kill Crystal because she was afraid that Crystal would murder others, nor did she do so to save her own skin; Crystal was no imminent threat to her, and, thanks to the deal which was made, she might not have been a threat at all to her.

Plus, Hayley was about to leave for the Western Continent, without Crystal... in short, the motive for killing was revenge, which is never good.

[Reverent-One]

The very fact that Hayley relished in the killing only serves to make her evil act all the worse. She didn't kill Crystal because she was afraid that Crystal would murder others, nor did she do so to save her own skin; Crystal was no imminent threat to her, and, thanks to the deal which was made, she might not have been a threat at all to her.

Except she was about to break that deal and not pay the guild anything. Crystal would be the most likely person for the guild to send after her.

[UltraDude]

*Applauds Haley's proactive approach to a dangerous person.*

*Bemoans the lack of Rogues in the thread.*

[nonamearisto]

Except she was about to break that deal and not pay the guild anything. Crystal would be the most likely person for the guild to send after her.

What are the odds that Crystal would be able to make it to the Western Continent? Or, if she got there, what are the odds that she would be able to overcome the Order of the Stick? Heck, she, Bozzok, and a whole lot of rogues failed to overcome Belkar, Celia, Hayley, and that cleric of Loki.

All Hayley would have to do to be safe was to simply avoid Greysky city again.