OOTS #653 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

EDIT: Oh, and since I got a few dozen emails about it, yes, the art for OOTS #652 was missing the proper battle damage on Xykon, Redcloak, and Jirix. A revised version has been uploaded.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Fight, Fight, Fight!

[Robert_Frazer]

Ah well. You did scuff and scratch him a bit, Varsuvius - you can at least console yourself with the fact that that's a lot more than most other of his foes have managed!

[Snake-Aes]

Bye V...

Rock beats Elf.

[Belkster11]

First off:

1) Awwww, Tsukio has a widdle Xykon doll she sleeps with. ^_^

2) Xykon owned V HARD both verbally AND spell-wise.

3) Poor V. Things are not looking good for her. At least she's not all veiny like she used to be. :(

[Silverraptor]

Noooooo!!!:furious: Vaarsuvius! Hang in there!:smallfrown:

[Belkster11]

I forsee...

V will be thrown into the cage along with O-Chul and he'll also begin giving her life lessons as well.

[Yendor]

Ouch. That's gotta hurt.

[Gawaeyn]

You know, it occurs to me to wonder where Ganonron and Jephton are going. Where DO incorporeal soul splices go after they escape?

[pendell]

...

PWNED!

That's the only proper title for this strip. PWNED. V was utterly and completely smacked down.

*Applause* I should be rooting for the good guy, but this was a crowning moment of awesome for Xykon. I haven't seen such a complete and total owning since .. ever! It was a delight to watch.

Other little details are fun too .. I note that Tsukikko has a little Xykon doll .. ewww.

Strange. T's outfit is less revealing than a bikini is but *seems* more enticing. Guess it's more about the presentation than anything else.

Anyways, great strip and a funny strip, even if what's about to happen to V isn't funny at all. But really, who didn't see something like this coming?

Attack the main villain in his lair without scrying beforehand or making the least vestige of a plan? V *deserved* to lose. I'd have been disappointed and angry if he won. The same reason I was angry when Xykon owned the Sapphire Guard. Because X then, like V now, was reckless and overconfident in his power. Happily the world is working as it should.

Question: Why is Xykon willing to 'go easy' on a knight-on-a-valiant-quest like Roy -- remember , he tried to give Roy the option of walking away alive -- but pulls out all the stops for a challenge to his rep by an evil magic-user?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Iain]

Heh, Tsukiko's slippers match her eyes :smallsmile:

[JeptCloak]

I actually like this comic alot more than I should... sure, Xykon is still inexplicably powerful, but the comic has veered away from the direction it seemed doomed to go at the end of the last issue. It stuck with one inconsistency (Xykon's lvl), even beefing him up more to justify it, while giving Ganeron and Jephton the respect they deserved and freeing them of the splice before defeat. V actually fights a little smarter, Xykon gets a bunch of items to defray the difference in power further, and it was much less forced than the last issue... so, what lvl is Xykon now? It seems to keep getting pushed higher...

[Adventurer]

Ouch. Not that it wasn't inevitable but... poor V. Wonder if he'll get away from this :eek:

The only good news is that the soul splice is ended now, so V's soul won't be damned any more.


PS: Yeah, it's funny how Tsukiko's slippers match her eyes.

[Aharon]

The banter was funny, as was pigtail chick's doll.

I continued to be a bit disappointed by the action itself, so I guess I will just wait until the story becomes less rules-intensive again.

[Zordrath]

That was awesome on so many levels :smallamused: It's good to see Xykon being restored to the top of the food chain again - after him being absent for so long and V committing acts that rivalled his in both power and atrocity, I'm happy that it's been made clear again who the real boss is.

I have to admit, though, I didn't expect V to fail that hard. It was obvious he had to fail somehow - you don't let one of your main characters trump the main villain in power halfway through the story - but I would have expected him to put up a better fight. He acted like a complete moron and was owned by Xykon on every level - even verbally, and, with a little help from Redcloak, tactically, both fields where you'd think V should excel.

I'm curious to see what happens next. I really hope V doesn't die (we already had that plotline, and it's been frustrating the first time), but it seems pretty inevitable to me. Redcloak might try to save V for interrogation, but I don't think Xykon will see reason in this case - V did try to scratch his rep, after all. Neither O-Chul nor the MitD could hope to save anyone from the lich, and the Order is far away. Maybe it's time for Aarindarius to finally make an entrance? It seems logical to me that Kyrie would look to V's former master for advice after witnessing his transformation, so it's possible A (perhaps epic level himself, seeing how V and the fiends trusted him to single-handedly pown the dragon) knows what has happened. I wouldn't sit idly if I were him, and if V ever needed his master's advice, it's right now.

[Malanthyus]

Am I the only one who's interested in figuring out how much xp Xykon got for winning?

[Dublock]

how much exp would he get? Exp from all three (splice) or just V? Or just V's old level? Or V's Splice level?

Also...Bye bye V :(

[Castamir]

Attack the main villain in his lair without scrying beforehand or making the least vestige of a plan? V *deserved* to lose. I'd have been disappointed and angry if he won. The same reason I was angry when Xykon owned the Sapphire Guard. Because X then, like V now, was reckless and overconfident in his power.
I wouldn't call making the bouncy ball beforehand going unprepared. It was a grossly unorthodox plan, yeah, but for Xykon, even this amount of planning is a great feat.

[Llama231]

how much exp would he get? Exp from all three (splice) or just V? Or just V's old level? Or V's Splice level?

Also...Bye bye V :(

edit: First time on the first page :D

:eek:

This would be frightening...

[Dacia Brabant]

So, rocks fall Vaarsuvius dies?

Well at least he can take solace in how arcane magical power was proven to be superior... just not the power V was wielding.

[RMS Oceanic]

Things look bad for V. Short of a Deus ex Machina, there's nothing the Order could theoretically cast that could retrieve h**. The only thing that could snatch her is a Conjuration (Calling) Spell, and there are no Cleric or Bard spells of a low enough level that Durkon or Elan could cast.

For the record, I will not complain if a Deus ex Machina does rescue V. I think (s)he's been curbstomped enough to get the message, and I don't think we're due for another long-term split of the Order, even if it is a 5-1 split.

[Trixie]

Now, it turns out that any and all preparations by V would be pointless - first Epic Spell from Xykon turns out to be a dispelling one - as if Giant decided to kick all these inane protection schemes floating on the forum :smallbiggrin:

That, plus another 11th spell slot - sorry, V was dumb to even try. Honestly, I loved the inclusion of the grappling hand and disintegration - two most shouted end-all-V-victory-spells turned out to be useless, just as I hoped :smallamused:

So, we now have depowered V along with Xykon with a lot more XPs? Ouch. I don't see how V will get out of this one, nor I want V to.

Oh, and I loved Xykon doll, Tsukiko banter, and that finishing line that literally crushed V :smallbiggrin:

One question to Giant, though - if it turns out that Xykon's lack of battle damage was a mistake, does this mean that V's lack of battle damage during that Black Dragon battle was a mistake as well? The circumstances seem to be the same, but there are (not mentioned) ways for V to not receive any damage - so, was that a mistake as well or just some hidden protection on V's part?

[Volkov]

Holllly....Ccccrraaaappp......XXxxyyykkkonnn....bu hbubbeat Ssssuuuppper vvvaaaarrrsssuuvvviussss....innnn....aa..dispel... ..cccheckkk.

[Doug Lampert]

so, what lvl is Xykon now? It seems to keep getting pushed higher...

How so? He's STILL done NOTHING that a level 21 Sorcerer Liche with two metamagic rods or sudden metamagic feats and Epic Spell for his only feat would have any trouble with, and sudden metamagic is a pretty good set of feats for a sorcerer. If you insist that he can only have one rod and that sudden metamagic doesn't exist then level 23 will still do fine.

[motub]

Wow... I never thought I'd see something like that...superb dispelling... wow.

I also liked the fact that the splices were gamely sticking by V... until shi got hit in the entire body by a really big rock...

It was also fun to return to the motto "sometimes ya just have to do it the old-fashioned way"-- all these high-level spells being thrown around (superb-frickin'-dispel (!!) (on a plane (!!) :smallsmile:)), and the actual method of breaking the remaining splices is not one of them, or even Xykon's witty repartee, but a really big rock.

Ha.

Glad to see Tsuiko, with her dolly and slippers, also nice to see her have no particular effect on the battle, because she's really still an up-and-comer, but nobody, at the level they were fighting at.

Wonder if V will survive somehow (even though if shi did, shi's captured and at the enemy's mercy), or if this is the "great loss". And it certainly would be... so many regrets to die with, not to mention "the other shoe" that is yet to drop in terms of the fiends' deal....

[Mercenary Pen]

Ouch, massive plot in the last few strips. Particularly the idea that V's power (ultimate though it may be) simply isn't enough without the smarts to use it properly.
also, first page!

[khoregate]

great i love splatting elves !!!

[zyphyr]

While I knew V wasn't going to be successful, I didn't expect that complete a stomping.

[Zanaril]

V looks astoundingly helpless and powerless in that last panel.

[chiasaur11]

Splices gone, nearly dead, and with Xykon right there...

Those of you who mentioned V turning this fight around: You lost the bet.

Also, gotta love Xykon's motivations for a complete crushing of a target.

[Kaytara]

Hehee... Poor V got another smackdown and yet I can't stop grinning like an idiot just because I'm so happy he got to keep the awesome hair. :)

On a more serious note, OUCH. Heh, a Xykon doll... I think someone on the forum actually jokingly suggested that, once. O.O
Xykon's use of the boulder (somehow I had a feeling the ruined tower wall would end up playing against V) is nicely reminiscent of his defeat of Fyron. Now HERE's a spellcaster who isn't afraid to use brute force.

A shame V didn't get to use Shapechange again. However, I'm confused why people are STILL saying V fought dumbly. Aren't V's attempted moves in this comic pretty much exactly what has been suggested by the forumites earlier? Disintegrate, Bugsby's Crushing Hand, Get The Hell Out of There via Greater Teleport... Yet with his Superb Dispelling, a swarm of magic items and apparently a Rod of Metamagic, Xykon is effectively Godmoding.

By the way, shouldn't there be 10d6 points of backlash damage from the Superb Dispelling for Xykon? Also, I'm looking forward to what people gather about his STR stat from that boulder move...

Another interesting thing... V's Evil Makeover didn't just have the purpose of looking cool, as it is usually the case... it doubled as a mask to stop the bad guys from recognising him. Now that V is back to his red-robed, normal-skinned self, Redcloak at the very least is certain to make the connection.

Prediction: I suppose this is where O-Chul and the MitD step in. Everything we know or presume about the plot means that V can neither die nor be removed from the Order at this point (impending control by the fiends, and all that), Team Evil needs to be kicked off their Status Quo in Azure City, and there are several factors that have been slowly building up against Xykon in the background, namely the slaves and O-Chul's influence on MitD. Vaarsuvius WINNING but, again, not due to his own strength but thanks to the courage of unexpected allies would both fulfil these conditions, advance the plot and give V the lesson in humility the plot seems to have been building towards. If that's the case, though, I'm curious how they will get out of Azure City. However, Tsukiko can Teleport, has just entered the stage, and V presumably can still cast Suggestion or something similar under his own power, so with a bit of luck and assistance from O-Chul, hopefully that won't be too much of a problem.

[Calmness]

I'm still wondering how Xykon did that thing in the last panel. Does he have War Hulk levels now?

Oh well, at least the damned splices are gone. Here's hoping V can recover someday.

[Volkov]

How so? He's STILL done NOTHING that a level 21 Sorcerer Liche with two metamagic rods or sudden metamagic feats and Epic Spell for his only feat would have any trouble with, and sudden metamagic is a pretty good set of feats for a sorcerer. If you insist that he can only have one rod and that sudden metamagic doesn't exist then level 23 will still do fine.

He's lifted a huge *** rock, a very, very, very big rock. He would have to be tremendously strong to do that. Much stronger than a powergamed level 21 sorcerer would be with aging penalties.

[Doug Lampert]

Question: Why is Xykon willing to 'go easy' on a knight-on-a-valiant-quest like Roy -- remember , he tried to give Roy the option of walking away alive -- but pulls out all the stops for a challenge to his rep by an evil magic-user?

Knight-on-a-valiant-quest has nothing Xykon wants, and provides full XP EVERY SINGLE TIME Xykon beats him, he provides far more if he's higher level. And he keeps coming back.

Killing him is like killing the goose that lays the golden egg, only stupider, at least you get a goose dinner out of the goose.

Rep challenging wizards? Seriously? This is Xykon we're talking about and he's supposed to NOT be as cruel as possible to a wizard who disses his rep? Not likely.

[Weimann]

First of all, exorcism by WALL! Booyah!

Second, Tsukiko in seethrough nightie and Xykon plushie.

When will we see those dolls in retail?

[The Pilgrim]

V is boned.

They way Xykon finish off Spliced-V is masterful. No arcane magic, no subtle ways, just a BIG CHUNK OF STONE over hir head. :smallbiggrin:

[Doug Lampert]

He's lifted a huge *** rock, a very, very, very big rock. He would have to be tremendously strong to do that. Much stronger than a powergamed level 21 sorcerer would be with aging penalties.

Much stronger than a powergamed level 500 sorcerer would be with aging penalties, unless of course you include the possibility of magical buffs, in which case we're down to just how high can an Epic caster buff a stat?

I don't think lifting a big rock is terribly impressive for X.

[Trixie]

He's lifted a huge *** rock, a very, very, very big rock. He would have to be tremendously strong to do that. Much stronger than a powergamed level 21 sorcerer would be with aging penalties.

1) Xykon isn't powergamed;
2) Age penalties disappeared with lichification;
3) Xykon could have buff/item with STR bonus;
4) That rock is a wall, which means it is relatively very thin.

[SteveMB]

He acted like a complete moron and was owned by Xykon on every level - even verbally, and, with a little help from Redcloak, tactically, both fields where you'd think V should excel.

Between being mentally dulled by months of trance deprivation, the stress of having h** family threatened, and the exhiliration of pwning the black dragon followed by the frustration of being repeatedly upstaged by the rest of the OotS despite having "ultimate arcane power", Vaarsuvius was judgment-impaired and feeling that s/he had something to prove. Pulling a stupid V-roy Jenkins stunt was a natural consequence.

[Charmy]

I thought Xykon played masterfully here. Every single round he did just about the best possible action with the information he had available.

Energy Drain
Maximized Energy Drain
Still Meteor Swarm w/ Energy Protection (how awesome is that?)
Superb Dispelling
Crush with ROCK. @_@

Efficiency, synergy, snarky banter, it was beautiful - I'm tearing up a little here.
Granted, he had some help from Redcloak, but he still had the right things prepared (like knowing to drain spliced souls).

V on the other hand played like a total n00b. (Seriously.. Quickened Dimensional Anchor?!?)

I am also curious as to why Disintegrate bounced off Xykon. Does he have spell resistance as well?

In any case I felt that this fight, while hard to watch because it was so devastatingly one-sided against our hero, was well crafted. It demonstrated what happens when someone with superior epic casting but none of the experience handles someone with a great deal of experience supported by a highly capable support team and appropriate magical items.

And I don't think this is out of character for X because Xykon has demonstrated his combat prowess before. I think he's the closest thing the comic has to a power gamer. He's not one, but he has mastery of the rules, outfits himself creatively and effectively, and displays sound battle strategy when he's actually trying and not just screwing around like he does with the OoTS. (I mean SERIOUSLY - "Suck on a symbol of pain"?!?) How about Wail of the Banshee instead dude? (I wouldn't put anything past his spell list right now)

P.S. When are we seeing the Xykon plushie on the merchandise list? I'd be the first customer, that thing is awesome! :smallbiggrin:

[Chirios]

Can any D&D players tell me why disintegrate didn't work?

[Logalmier]

I love this comic.:smallbiggrin:


Can any D&D players tell me why disintegrate didn't work?

Xykon has been crafting magic items for weeks on end now, there's sure to be some obscure ring or something that neutralizes rays.

[Kaytara]

Splices gone, nearly dead, and with Xykon right there...

Those of you who mentioned V turning this fight around: You lost the bet.

Also, gotta love Xykon's motivations for a complete crushing of a target.

Very few people did that, as far as I can remember. Maybe you're confusing them with the people who said V would walk away with some form of victory? I, for one, am still inclined to believe that. We have too many Chekov's Guns in the form of O-Chul, the MitD, the rebellious slaves and the Resistance waiting for Team Evil to get off that easily, and being completely pwned and then being rescued by an unarmed paladin and a bunch of low-level NPCs would deliver exactly the lesson V needs while actually securing character growth and advancement of the plot.

[dish]

I take this a further proof that V never had "ultimate arcane power". Because, well... (Although the point made about it being ultimate power just wielded by an inexperienced caster does make some sense.)

Anyway, Ganonron and Jephton strike me as being rather nice and supportive towards V, considering how evil they're supposed to be.

[Neopolis]

Oh, yeah, the fight was cool and all. But check it out, it's Tsukiko in a seethrough nightgown. :smallbiggrin:

[Alair]

As awesome as this part of the story has been... V's defeat here also means really big trouble for the group back in Greysky as well. With no teleport out of the city how long will it take for Crystal's murder to be discovered?

[Milcho]

Darn, I know that if V killed Xykon the main plot would've been ruined, but still, at least force him to reconsider his plans and/or have some other evildoers killed (like that necro girl who annoys me).

I've got a question for the more DnD people - What exactly CAN harm a lich? he looked immune to fireballs, lightning, physical, heck, anything but that Empowered Sunburst spell seemed to do nothing. So, what CAN be done to damage him? And if there are things, can any of the rest of the order do them?

[pendell]

With respect, Alair, they're not in Greysky city anymore. They teleported to the western continent to join the Azurites.

As towards Milcho's question, we've seen a number of things in-comic that can harm Xykon.

1) Roy's +5 sword with green energy 'particularly harmful to the undead'.
2) A weapon with disruption cast on it.
3) Soon's weapon and Smite Evil.

Liches are also susceptible to bludgeoning damage -- so a mace with disruption would do the trick quite nicely.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[theinsulabot]

you know, roy is far and away my favorite char of the comic, both in humor and style. but after the fight with X, people who were defending him were saying thigs like

"well, he didnt have any time to think it through"

or

"it was his only chance to stop X"

and i had to say i disagreed. he jumped onto the back of a dragon and tried to solo X because he truly, completely, expected to WIN the fight. because roy is, or at least was, very, very arrogant. and that impared his judgement. same thing for those talking about how V didnt plan out the fight well enough. i dont believe at all it was because he was tired, or distracted, or worried about the splice wearing off before he had time to refresh his spell slots. V went in guns blazing because he really thought he was gonna take X down.


and and bish, i would say they are being supportive of V because while he may not be evil, he is giving them the chance to unleash there magics on the mightiest foes around, a chance to really cut loose. a huge dragon wth all the circumstance bonuses of a mother taking revenge for her slain children, and singlehandedly storming the keep of an epic level lich

[Starknight]

Xykon pwns both V AND the Forums. Now that's badass. Well at least V is free of the soul-splice. I forsee V FINALLY getting to trance. Like I have said repeatedly, You just need to rock V to sleep. First find a BIG rock.

Giant I hope that your server problems are getting fixed.

Starknight

[Logalmier]

I take this a further proof that V never had "ultimate arcane power". Because, well... (Although the point made about it being ultimate power just wielded by an inexperienced caster does make some sense.)

Anyway, Ganonron and Jephton strike me as being rather nice and supportive towards V, considering how evil they're supposed to be.

I think they started to grow on V as time went on. And I think they grew more sympathetic to V's plight.

[silvadel]

Unintended Consequences (theory)

At some point Black Dragons will be massing to find V. All they will know is that all divinations are FAILING in the same way all of V's divinations were failing because V is inside the cloister.

This will waste some time and they will end up going to the oracle or using some epic magic.

Two Months Later : From some prison in the tower V looks out and sees an army of black dragons charging Xykon -- "This aint good"



Oh and it is interesting how V's robe reverted to red.

[Killer Angel]

Poor V... this is a very hard way to lose the soul splice and returning a "normal" wizard. H** ego will suffer.
Also, I like Tsukiko's doll... :smallbiggrin:

[Gez]

One hefty plate of humility, piping hot! Eat it, V., eat it! It's good for what ails you.

(Namely, overbearing arrogance allied with total lack of foresight, and a sever disconnect between what you can actually do and what you think you are capable of. This illness is known as "being an elf.")

[Zanaril]

Anyway, Ganonron and Jephton strike me as being rather nice and supportive towards V, considering how evil they're supposed to be.

It was never their evilness that was emphasised, just their power, and there doesn't have to be a correlation between the two. For all we know, they could have only just missed getting into the neutral afterlife, or could have made a bad choice and sold their souls to fiends for more power sometime during life.

[Blade206]

Wow... I never thought I'd see something like that...superb dispelling... wow.

I also liked the fact that the splices were gamely sticking by V... until shi got hit in the entire body by a really big rock...

It was also fun to return to the motto "sometimes ya just have to do it the old-fashioned way"-- all these high-level spells being thrown around (superb-frickin'-dispel (!!) (on a plane (!!) :smallsmile:)), and the actual method of breaking the remaining splices is not one of them, or even Xykon's witty repartee, but a really big rock.

Ha.

Glad to see Tsuiko, with her dolly and slippers, also nice to see her have no particular effect on the battle, because she's really still an up-and-comer, but nobody, at the level they were fighting at.

Wonder if V will survive somehow (even though if shi did, shi's captured and at the enemy's mercy), or if this is the "great loss". And it certainly would be... so many regrets to die with, not to mention "the other shoe" that is yet to drop in terms of the fiends' deal....

Well, it just goes to show, some people solve problems through thinking and talking. Others use rocks :D

Anyway, I'm not sure if it rly matters at this point but I couldnt help but notice that V was refered to as "she" pretty much through the whole comic. Perhaps a hint as to V's gender?......

[Aaron]

...wow!!! Poor V. That's got to hurt. Now V is going to be thrown in a cage and put with O-Chul and Mith. Mabey O-Chul and V can team up later and escape.

Also, nice to see that Tsukiko has a Xykon doll and slippers matching her eyes.

[Kaytara]

As awesome as this part of the story has been... V's defeat here also means really big trouble for the group back in Greysky as well. With no teleport out of the city how long will it take for Crystal's murder to be discovered?

...What group back in Greysky? The one Vaarsuvius teleported to near Hinjo's fleet before going to Azure City? XD

[Volkov]

1) Xykon isn't powergamed;
2) Age penalties disappeared with lichification;
3) Xykon could have buff/item with STR bonus;
4) That rock is a wall, which means it is relatively very thin.

Castle walls are pretty thick. It's not dry wall, it's flipping solid rock. Also Xykon can cast 10th level spells, he cannot sudden still twice a day. Thus he is at least level 23. Also, I don't think any serious DM considers having a rod in your rib cage to be holding it.

[appending_doom]

Anyway, I'm not sure if it rly matters at this point but I couldnt help but notice that V was refered to as "she" pretty much through the whole comic. Perhaps a hint as to V's gender?......

I couldn't quote it, but I'm fairly certain Rich has said that most people choose a gender they think V is and stick with it; it has to do with their perceptions, and have nothing to do with reality.

And, given that V's gone all evil!Bishounen, it's possible hir feminine traits have been emphasized.

Or maybe Tsukiko assumes all elves are female (a la the dwarven beard fallacy).

[Alair]

With respect, Alair, they're not in Greysky city anymore. They teleported to the western continent to join the Azurites.

Oh, indeed, my bad. I'd thought they were waiting to ressurect him before 'porting. I'd forgotten the middle jump.


Anyway, Ganonron and Jephton strike me as being rather nice and supportive towards V, considering how evil they're supposed to be.

Really? The "Whoops, tough break kid." "Later!" seems a bit insincere to me.

[Xantospoc]

Well, a good comic.I liked how V was defeated by Xykon (and how he needed some help, after all).
Moral: If you want to defeat an enemy crush it with a rock

I still think that we've not seen the last of Jephton or Ganoron (unless they are captured now). Just... how the fiends will act, now that all the spliced souls have escaped. Will they try to take them back... or will blame V for the losses. We'll see...

I doubt still that V's master will come. It hasn't pass more than 20 minutes since (s)he left hir family

[shadzar]

So the sorcerer Jephton the Unholy was completely worthless huh?

I would ask for a refund for that splice if I was V.

[Mojique]

Vaarsuvius - a new attraction for Xykon's torture zoo...

[Wolf_Plague]

I guess, if V is not gonna get rescued in nearest future, he could become either a hostage used to add some pressure on the Order(if V's soul won't be reclaimed before his death, threatening to let the Fiends finish their deal by killing V would give Xykon a way to control not only OotS, but most of his opposition. If X finds out exact terms of the deal, of course), or just a prisoner, waiting for rescue and giving soon-to-be-resurrected Roy another headache to take care of. The later would be quite humiliating...
Right words to the right creature...

Heh, how about MitD? It had to be magical in some kind being a superweapon and such.
That would be mostly unexpected.

And panel with both V and X pointing at each other is awesome.:smallcool:

[factotum]

I personally think that everything that's happened since V teleported into the throne room has been intended to show him the benefits of teamwork. Redcloak used the True Seeing and told Xykon about the splice; he and Tsukiko figured out that V had to have Mind Blank active, and told Xykon to use the epic dispel (which is the first time we've seen Xykon cast an epic spell of his own--Cloister was granted by Dorukan's headband); and then V fell into Tsukiko's Mind Fog, which, with the help of a hundred pounds of rock dropped on his head, forced the splices out of him. Xykon couldn't have defeated V so rapidly and completely without the assistance of the other two, one of whom was even using Divine Magic (which we all know isn't PROPER magic)...

Let's hope V lives to learn the lesson.

[motub]

4) That rock is a wall, which means it is relatively very thin.
"Relatively very thin" in comparison to what?? That was an exterior chunk o' wall-- presuming that it was one of the chunks chunked when V zapped the spell wards, which were placed on a wall which contained a window when whole-- not an interior one. And given that it was a fortified tower, that would mean that the chunk o' wall not only looked big and heavy... it quite probably was. And of course, V is an elf, and a traditionally-weak magic-user, so it wouldn't have even had to be all that big and heavy to splat her... even though it probably was that big and heavy :smallsmile:.

Xykon is a showman... lich... I doubt he actually did the manual labor to lift the stone. Surely any sorceror so advanced to have superb dispel has a telekenisis/levitate type spell in his back pocket capable of actually doing the "heavy lifting"... and being the showlich that he is, he would have just acted like he was actually manipulating it manually, rather than dirtying his handbones doing so.

But I just realized the ironic thing... Even though he dismissed it and complained about it, Xykon won because he let his team do their jobs and help him.

Redcloak had the idea to set the traps and was allowed to do so, and they were successful. Redcloak also was able to True See the splices, which naturally was important intelligence for Team Evil to understand what they were dealing with. Even though Tsukiko didn't do any damage, she did help identify offensive spells that didn't work, via the process of elimination, which Redcloak then expanded on. His team's ground work allowed Xykon, when he finally cast an offensive spell, to cast the right one, and decisively win the battle.

Teamwork rocks.*

I wonder if this will finally clue V in on where shi's been going wrong all this time (even if shi's killed/dies now, shi's still got stuff to do, so shi kan certainly develop further, in the hells if nowhere else)?

EDIT: * No pun intended (though I like the pun, actually :smallsmile:)

EDIT 2: Ninja'd! w00t!

[Phexar]

Really? The "Whoops, tough break kid." "Later!" seems a bit insincere to me.

It's sort of a mix of both... Ganonron and Jephton are probably well aware enough that the fiends will go and round them up and stick them back in the lower planes once their splices are over, and that staying up topside with V as long as possible is a much more pleasant alternative, if not always the most eventful. Hence their attempts at telling V not to worry and giving assistance- if V can hold his/her mind together, the bonds and their 'field-trip' won't be broken.

However, Xykon did forcibly break their splices with the heavy attack, so they had nothing else to do other than just zoom off and hope it's a while before the fiends net them again. No point hanging around where the fiends can easily find them. Although Haerta seemed rather gleeful about her 'freedom' in comparison. :smallconfused: Perhaps the other two casters have more Wisdom.

[dish]

It was never their evilness that was emphasised, just their power, and there doesn't have to be a correlation between the two. For all we know, they could have only just missed getting into the neutral afterlife, or could have made a bad choice and sold their souls to fiends for more power sometime during life.

Ganonron, Terror of a Thousand Planes, and Jephton, the Unholy, Spawn of Hatred ... the names don't sound particularly neutral...


Anyway, since the soul-splice is over, how soon can the fiends call in their debt? If one of them took possession of V's soul now, could that in any way alter the situation?

[Tharianor]

So, it was good until it lasted! V got pwned!
I care for him/her and I like the character, but I have to say this: This shows how you end relying only on yourself and not on others.Yes Xykon is powerful, as he is the Villain of the story TM, but cooperation between Xykon, RC and Tsukiko, defeated V! Poor V! I hope this teaches V a lesson! Teamwork is the key. I hope V remembers that when,if, he/she rejoins the Order.I hope V is'nt killed now.

I think V won't as it is within the three fiends plan to use V near the gates, as a part of us belive. So I side with those that say V is captured. O'chul and the MitD are somehow involved in a succesive escape


I take this a further proof that V never had "ultimate arcane power". Because, well... (Although the point made about it being ultimate power just wielded by an inexperienced caster does make some sense.)

Bold part by me.
Yes, this is what I continue to think when peple say that this wasn't ultimate arcane power and that we haven't hers the four words still.
IMHO, it was, but v lost it. V used it for its purpouse, to save his/her family, also to solve the Azurites' problems, and to teleport the Order. But for the rest V misused it and that's all.
Maybe what I am saying is obvious and sombody as surely said it.
When we heard the prophecy the first time we thougt that V was going to keep UAP.
When the fiends prposed the deal and said that V was going to keep the splices until V's will could permit it, I thougt that yes this is, well was, UAP, meanig that it is the maximum power V will reach in his/her life. Simply V won't keep it.
V wil in the future, if he/she doesn't dies, achive more power certainly, even Great Arcane Power, but this was the maximum acane power V will ever get.
I know that many people have certainly said this, so excuse me.
This are my two eurocents

[snafu]

So the sorcerer Jephton the Unholy was completely worthless huh?

I would ask for a refund for that splice if I was V.

Well, she never got any epic spells out of it, but who knows how many regular spells she fired without having to prepare them thanks to him?

Pity to see V downed, but this was always a foolhardy move. With the splices broken, V is no longer a serious threat, and Xykon can do with her as he pleases. Chances are he'll inquire (by means of robust or even enhanced interrogation) after the backstory to the whole fiendish deal, and with the information he'll Hannibal Lecture her into accepting her own evil nature. Muhahahaha, etc. Team Evil is always recruiting, after all.

Anyway, I'm sorry V, but I don't love you any more. I mean, the whole obsessive insanity thing was off-putting enough, and this epic failure even more so, but in the end... You just can't compete with a sleepy girl in an adorable nightie and fluffy slippers and with the very cutest little cuddly Xykon doll. Tsukiko is just so fantastically huggable in this one :-)

[VariaVespasa]

The density of stone is about 170 pounds per cubic foot +/- 20% depending on the stone, or about 110-120 pounds per cubic foot for a brick wall. So if its only 6" thick and made of brick (and I dont think its either) that piece of wall still weighs around 1200 pounds, or over half a ton... Its showing stone, not brick, and much closer to a foot thick, so more likely its around 3400 pounds, or 1.75 tons... Thats not casual weightlifting either way, especially if flight spells have load limits in 3.5 as they do in many systems. (Do they?)

[Joerg]

A really good and interesting comic.



A shame V didn't get to use Shapechange again. However, I'm confused why people are STILL saying V fought dumbly. Aren't V's attempted moves in this comic pretty much exactly what has been suggested by the forumites earlier?


I agree. IMO, V made very good choices each round. If Xykon hadn't had traps, magic items, and help from both Redcloak and Tsukiko (or if Xykon wasn't an epic lich built for dueling), V might very well have won.

But now that I see it, it's clear to me that such was the only way for V to get rid of the soul splice. She might never have released it on her own.



Prediction: I suppose this is where O-Chul and the MitD step in. [...] If that's the case, though, I'm curious how they will get out of Azure City. However, Tsukiko can Teleport, has just entered the stage, and V presumably can still cast Suggestion or something similar under his own power, so with a bit of luck and assistance from O-Chul, hopefully that won't be too much of a problem.

Very difficult. I don't suppose the MitD will already step into the open. That means it can only help in a limited way. O-Chul can't to anything against the assembled Team Evil now, even if he's been freed by the fight. I can imagine him freeing V later and both of them escaping, but how shall they get to the western continent then? It seems Greater Teleport is needed, and there is no-one now to cast that spell. Perhaps they could contact Durkon, who gets them with Wind Walk.

Alternatively, Xykon and Redcloak might take V to the next gate. But why should they? Perhaps they kill hir and make a kind of powerful undead out of hir. Then the IFCC might get their ca. 50 minutes earlier than they thought ...

[Zanaril]

Is the tower even made of stone? It's green.


Ganonron, Terror of a Thousand Planes, and Jephton, the Unholy, Spawn of Hatred ... the names don't sound particularly neutral...

They're compensating. :smalltongue:

[Omegonthesane]

My first reaction was "V! NOOOOOO!"

My second was "Wait, can Xykon actually interrupt V's casting?"

Well, I was sure V wouldn't come out with a total victory, and my own prediction - that Xykon would be pwnt but Redcloak would finish V off - isn't half as good as this at making V humble. The only thing is, we now need to get V out of there without it coming off as a total Deus Ex Machina - unless Celia would like to replace hir as the party's caster?

Also, for everyone who's predicting how Xykon might be defeated, use spoiler tags, the Giant might read this thread. He also might feel the urge to stop O-Chul's Smite Evil from finishing off Xykon, just to spite whoever correctly called it - if it is indeed a correct call.

[shadzar]

Well, she never got any epic spells out of it, but who knows how many regular spells she fired without having to prepare them thanks to him?

Wasn't someone actually counting the splices used spells in a thread around here?

An epic would have been nice to learnw hat he had, but still I don't recall him offering much at all. We knew Ganonron teleported everywhere, and Haerta had all the necromancy.

But why was Jephton called the Unholy, and then able to lose so badly to Xykon with simple energy drains. You would think he could have put up some kind of fight other than non-vancian casting. :smallconfused:

[wzeller]

Somebody else pointed out that V has lost the black cloak, but nobody seems to have noticed her fangs gone as well.

Which begs the question: Why does she still have her evil hair?

Of course, it could be an oversight soon to be corrected.

But otherwise, is this going to be V's lasting reminder of the biggest bargain in her life going bad? Or is it a sign that while the splices are gone the remnants of evil remain? Perhaps it's symbolic of an alignment shift that happened while V slipped towards insanity while blaming the imaginary alignment feedback.

Just a thought.

w

[dish]

Somebody else pointed out that V has lost the black cloak, but nobody seems to have noticed her fangs gone as well.

Which begs the question: Why does she still have her evil hair?

Of course, it could be an oversight soon to be corrected.



V's hair always was that colour. It just got a bit longer during the evil makeover. It might have gone short again, but it's difficult to tell because of the 1.75 ton chunk of green (!) masonry* getting in the way.

* I suppose the castle wall could be made out of lime Jello, but it seems unlikely.

[Zevox]

So we're going the "V is captured" route, it seems - unless Xykon decides to execute her after a little chatting next strip, anyway. Curious. I'm not exactly sure how that could play into the remainder of the plot. I suppose the IFCC could bail her out for some reason, but I don't expect it. Which means either she gets rescued by the Order - which seems unlikely, unless they suddenly develop another reason to return to Azure City, or Xykon takes her with him when he heads to Girard's Gate - or she escapes while he's away. My money would be on that last. Yet that seems a bit dull.

Hm, well, anyway, I eagerly await seeing what the exact fallout from this will be.

Zevox

[Trebuchet]

Which begs the question: Why does she still have her evil hair?

Of course, it could be an oversight soon to be corrected.


I like the idea of V keeping the evil hair, but I think it is now just messy. Wind- or Dispel-blown, maybe. It didn't look too good before the soul splice.

Not that V will be in any shape to care about hairstyles in the next few strips.

[Keshay]

Looking back on this fight, I find myself wondering one thing. Why didn't Xykon just punch V?

From the SRD:
"Paralyzing Touch (Su)
Any living creature a lich hits with its touch attack must succeed on a Fortitude save or be permanently paralyzed. Remove paralysis or any spell that can remove a curse can free the victim (see the bestow curse spell description).

The effect cannot be dispelled. Anyone paralyzed by a lich seems dead, though a DC 20 Spot check or a DC 15 Heal check reveals that the victim is still alive."

Seems like a wise first course of action to take against a spellcaster, espically one who immediately appears to have worse tangible chatacter attributes than expected. Minimum, the save DC is 25 (higher depending on X's actual HD and Cha mod), with V retaining hir usual saves, one would need a 19-20 to make the save.

For a portion of the fight they seemed to be in pretty close proximity. And V getting beaten with one punch would have been even more salt in the wound of "Ultimate Arcanre Power trumps all!!" philosophy.

Of course, the way the events unfolded was far more entertaining, so this is a pretty minor complaint/observation.

[Kaytara]

Somebody else pointed out that V has lost the black cloak, but nobody seems to have noticed her fangs gone as well.
And the glowing eyes, and the pale skin. People HAVE acknowledged all of this when saying that V has gone back to normal. :)


Which begs the question: Why does she still have her evil hair?

Of course, it could be an oversight soon to be corrected.

But otherwise, is this going to be V's lasting reminder of the biggest bargain in her life going bad? Or is it a sign that while the splices are gone the remnants of evil remain? Perhaps it's symbolic of an alignment shift that happened while V slipped towards insanity while blaming the imaginary alignment feedback.

Just a thought.

w

"Changes in appearance help establish narrative distance from past events." XD Assuming V learns his lesson and becomes a fundamentally different person, a different haircut seems the least of the changes we could demand.

Also, "Rule of Cool". :) Long hair looks awesome on Vaarsuvius without indicating evil, so it's the part of the Splice that stays. :) Although, if we DO go symbolic, it might also mean a release of inhibitions and becoming more open and accepting of V's "dark" side - "dark" as in "unacknowledged, hidden" rather than evil - though that too.

[Zanaril]

I like the idea of V keeping the evil hair, but I think it is now just messy. Wind- or Dispel-blown, maybe. It didn't look too good before the soul splice.

Nope, it's definitely still long. Most likely the Splice actually made hir hair grow (opposed to the robe change and teeth, which was just a temporary magical change), and just has no reason to shorten it again. Possibly it's what V's hair would look like anyway without the headband (which I notice hasn't returned).

Plus it looks cool. I always though V's hair looked weird previously.


And the glowing eyes, and the pale skin.

V's eyes have glowed before (although it was only when firing up hir magic), and she still has the pale skin.

[Kranden]

Oh man they totally bailed on him just like that! whew that's harsh.

[Faldrath]

Something people haven't mentioned yet is that now that V is back to normal, it's pretty likely that Redcloak, at least, will recognize h** (I doubt Xykon will, of course).

[Zevox]

I've got a question for the more DnD people - What exactly CAN harm a lich? he looked immune to fireballs, lightning, physical, heck, anything but that Empowered Sunburst spell seemed to do nothing. So, what CAN be done to damage him? And if there are things, can any of the rest of the order do them?
Liches have a whole host of immunities, but they hardly cover all damage out there. Certainly there was a lot of damage done to him in this battle, and a lot the rest of the Order can do.

A quick summary of what Liches are immune to:
- Lightning or Cold damage.
- Polymorphing (against their will).
- Mind-affecting effects.
- Critical hits.
- Anything that gives a fortitude save, unless it would work on an object. (So for instance, poison is useless against him, as are most save-or-die Necromancy spells, but Disintegrate will still function.)
- Sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, and death effects.
- Damage or drain to his ability scores (so you cannot use a Ray of Enfeeblement spell to reduce his strength score to nearly nothing, for example) or any fatigue or exhaustion.
- Death by massive damage (normally a danger whenever a character takes 50 damage or more at once).
- Negative energy damage (he is healed by this instead).

And we also know now that he has a magic item that makes him immune to Fire damage.

In addition, Liches get damage reduction 15/bludgeoning and magic, meaning any physical damage they take is reduced by 15 points unless the weapon striking them is both magical and or the bludgeoning type (such as a mace, club, etc - anything you bash with rather than slash or stab). That'll negate the damage from most low-level physical attackers, archers, or characters that are only secondarily physical combatants (such as a non-buffed Cleric). He also has bonus resistance to Turn Undead, making it impossible to turn him unless you're at least his level, unless you have something to seriously boost your turning power.

But that still leaves a lot that can hurt him. In the magic department, anything that does Acid or Sonic damage can, as well as anything that does damage that isn't elemental in type (magic missile, disintegrate, sunburst, etc etc - there are a fair amount of them, they're just no the ones that V usually uses). Any physical weapon that can overcome his DR will hurt, too, which includes, most likely, Durkon's hammer. Roy's sword, being Undead Bane, is also good against him, even though it cannot overcome his DR. And like all Undead, he has an added vulnerability that most creature's don't - positive energy, normally found in healing spells. If Durkon gets a chance to cast Heal on him, that'll hurt, big time. Any Cure spells he casts on him will as well, and he can convert any of his spells to those spontaneously, although most likely they won't do too much, since Xykon can almost surely make his will saves to halve the damage from them. This is also likely why Soon was so effective against him, since at the time he was a ghost-like being literally made up of positive energy.

Zevox

[Kornaki]

evil hair? It was always purple, it's just in a different style now

[Callos_DeTerran]

On Xykon and the 'valiant knight' comment.

It's very likely not to be about the constant returning source of XP (if Xykon would even get it) but rather the STORY. Xykon displays an almost uncanny awareness of story/comic rules (They could cut away to us at any time! Come back when you are a higher level, and we'll do this the right way) and as mentioned, probably doesn't get XP from such low level encounters.

Rather, it seems to be ABOUT the story. An arcane caster (a wizard at that) challenging him just because he's there? It's a compliment but that's all it is. If Xykon loses then sure, he loses some of his badass rep, but all he gains by winning is 'beat another wizard' to his tally.

A knight on a valiant quest is a different story. Look at some older work of fictions. The hero is almost always the 'knight' or melee brute while the evil-doer has a fifty-fifty chance of being an arcane spellcaster to have glaring differences between the protagonist and antagonist. Having a knight-on-a-valiant-quest come after him isn't just a compliment, it's affirmation that Xykon is a seriously evil threat. If that knight comes back time after time (whither because they escaped, thought they won, or survived a crushing defeat) then it means that Xykon isn't just 'seriously Evil' it means he's the BBEG because he has a designated protagonist.

More importantly it also means that if Xykon fights such a 'knight' then even if he pulls out all the stops and still loses, it means he'll still have a form of immortality even if it's a paltry shade of the immortality he has now. 'Knights-on-Valiant-Quests' will usually have sagas and epic stories told about them (just ask Elan!) and the villain is always an integral part. Fighting a 'proper' fight against a 'knight'-type isn't just an affirmation of his evilness, it provides two unique oppertunities.

1) If Xykon loses (and is destroyed) it may be an undesirable thing, but his fame and reputation will live on despite his death. People will still hear about Xykon the lich who almost released the Snarl from it's imprisonment. Someone like V winning against him makes him apart of 'wizard on sorcerer' conflict. Not something most people will even remember. Losing to him also makes him less threatening, the story wouldn't be anywhere near as cool. 'Oh he almost destroyed the world, but an elf jacked-up on magic beat him too, not just the knight'.

2) If Xykon wins then...he's done something no honest-to-goodness villain has ever done (in OoTS at least) and that's beat the PCs and accomplish his evil scheme. But beating the PCs when they can't honestly fight back? That's not impressive. It's not even cool. And remember, monsters and NPCs in OoTS realize what PCs are. The hobgoblins where passing out t-shirts when they THOUGHT they killed the PCs.

[Aotrs Commander]

- Damage or drain to his ability scores (so you cannot use a Ray of Enfeeblement spell to reduce his strength score to nearly nothing, for example) or any fatigue or exhaustion.

Technically, as written, Ray of Enfeeblement does work, since it's a Str penalty and not damage or drain. (Though it's not an unreasonable ruling to make that it doesn't.) This was pointed out to me once on the WotC boards somewhere (it might even have been one of the FAQS or something) but damned if I can remember the source. However, since it's a penalty, it doesn't stack with itself, so if Xykon is Str 12 or more (maximum from a D6+5 penalty) you're unlikely to do much to stop him even then.

Sorry, just nitpicking...



To the person who asked how Xykon avoided Disintigrate (sorry can't find your post to quote it), if you look under the spell effect, it says 'deflect' which would suggest Xykon simply took the easiet way out and pumped his Touch Armour Class (Disintigrate requires a ranged touch attack first, followed by a Fort save if it hits.)

[Surfing HalfOrc]

To all the math experts calculating the weight and mass of the wall section, "are you sure that is stone?" The green tower looks distinctivly "grown," rather than "built."

Coral is much lighter than the rocks it grows on, and wood or other vegetable matter would also be lighter than stone. You might want to revise your estimates down a bit.

But this does fit Xykon's pattern. "Hit it over the head with a blunt object til it dies!"

[praguepride]

I'll be honest, I hope V dies. Ever since he abandoned the guards at Saphire City and has pretty much been a total d*** I lost all desire to root for him.

He's treated his allies like dirt, he treated his own party members (even the "non-Elan/Belkar" ones with nothing but contempt, heck he's even lost a sight on the purpose of his quest. He's not fighting Xykon to save the world, he's fighting Xykon to prove that his powers are greater then any others.

He stopped being a hero around the same time as he disintigrated the noble. Yeah, everyone rooted and cheered for him because "he's such a badass" but the actual ramifications of that are profound.

Basically, he's quickly become a villian of his own, selling his soul to demons, killing anyone that gets in his way (remember all those disintigration attempts on the lone demon? the mass genocide of black dragons).

Sure they're "technically" evil creatures, but if you've read the Origins of PC's book, you'll know that the Giant doesn't gloss over technicalities. Killing an evil creature for evil purposes (or in V's case apathy about wanting to deal with furture obstacles) is still an evil act.

I fully support Celia becoming the new mage of the party, and if/when V dies, I won't feel the slightest bit sorry. He brought it on himself and this is definitely the proper outcome of the path he set himself on.

[Snake-Aes]

Celia doesn't intend to. She just wants to go back to college.

[Silverraptor]

So now V has less then an hour of her soul belonging to the fiends.

Also for those of you who wonder how Xykon can move that big boulder, my 3rd level dwarf with maxed out strength and a high roll can break through Iron bars. Though admittedly, he does have the dungeon crasher feat, giving him bonuses to breaking stuff. But I find it perfectly believable that Xykon, as a Lich, who has STR bonuses, to move a big chunk of wall like that.


And what can harm a Lich? Find a bunch of anti-undead spells. Sunburst is good, Searing Light, Cure spells, etc.

[Da'Shain]

I'll be honest, I hope V dies. Ever since he abandoned the guards at Saphire City and has pretty much been a total d*** I lost all desire to root for him.While I agree that V's been slipping down the path to villainy, this is hardly an example. What the heck was V supposed to do there? Pick up a bow and die? Heroic last stands are all well and good, but V can and has done a lot more good being alive than he could've participating in a futile battle to which his contribution can no longer make a difference.


I fully support Celia becoming the new mage of the party, and if/when V dies, I won't feel the slightest bit sorry. He brought it on himself and this is definitely the proper outcome of the path he set himself on.Again, V's not been an admirable character for the past few hundred strips. But V's death is not the only proper outcome for resolution of that particular arc; V instead realizing his character flaws, growing from them, and attempting to make amends (and not necessarily succeeding) is also a perfectly valid direction for the story to take.

And Celia might stick around, but I seriously doubt she has the power to actually replace V as a spellcaster. I don't think she even has any class levels on top of her monster HD.

[Kornaki]

V killed the noble to save the readers another trial. Surely that was an act of good

[Kholdstare]

This isn't the end of a battle. Three fiends with their own start-up going on about to see their first project end in ruin? Either they force the three souls back into V and double the price. OR one of the fiends jump into V's body and simply makes V the attached soul like Jephton and Gan to make it seem like the soul splice was never broken. Who can report on it broken when one of the arch-fiends could probably wipe out everyone who witnessed the event?

The whole point of the offer was to show that the three arch-fiends could cooperate. If V fails then their collective goal completely shatters.

My two best theories as follows:

First thoery-The three original souls are forced back into the body of V only this time V faces Xykon with all of the souls. Hopefully Jephton makes a "I didn't hear no bell" remark.

Second theory- The fiends find replacement souls and transfer them to V's body as a showing of good will or a "Soul Warranty". Rejuvenated power and all V can at least hold Xykon and the gang long enough to escape.

[plainsfox]

I cannot help but wonder, since some people said that most of Suvie's actions were suggested in the forums, but did Xykon use the fourth wall to bash Suvie?

[Snake-Aes]

This isn't the end of a battle. Three fiends with their own start-up going on about to see their first project end in ruin? Either they force the three souls back into V and double the price. OR one of the fiends jump into V's body and simply makes V the attached soul like Jephton and Gan to make it seem like the soul splice was never broken. Who can report on it broken when one of the arch-fiends could probably wipe out everyone who witnessed the event?

The whole point of the offer was to show that the three arch-fiends could cooperate. If V fails then their collective goal completely shatters.

My two best theories as follows:

First thoery-The three original souls are forced back into the body of V only this time V faces Xykon with all of the souls. Hopefully Jephton makes a "I didn't hear no bell" remark.

Second theory- The fiends find replacement souls and transfer them to V's body as a showing of good will or a "Soul Warranty". Rejuvenated power and all V can at least hold Xykon and the gang long enough to escape.

Their deal was "For as long as you can hold them". If V lost them it's V's bad.

[Enlong]

...

PWNED!

That's the only proper title for this strip. PWNED. V was utterly and completely smacked down.

*Applause* I should be rooting for the good guy, but this was a crowning moment of awesome for Xykon. I haven't seen such a complete and total owning since .. ever! It was a delight to watch.

Other little details are fun too .. I note that Tsukikko has a little Xykon doll .. ewww.

Strange. T's outfit is less revealing than a bikini is but *seems* more enticing. Guess it's more about the presentation than anything else.

Anyways, great strip and a funny strip, even if what's about to happen to V isn't funny at all. But really, who didn't see something like this coming?

Attack the main villain in his lair without scrying beforehand or making the least vestige of a plan? V *deserved* to lose. I'd have been disappointed and angry if he won. The same reason I was angry when Xykon owned the Sapphire Guard. Because X then, like V now, was reckless and overconfident in his power. Happily the world is working as it should.

Question: Why is Xykon willing to 'go easy' on a knight-on-a-valiant-quest like Roy -- remember , he tried to give Roy the option of walking away alive -- but pulls out all the stops for a challenge to his rep by an evil magic-user?

Respectfully,

Brian P.
SOD Spoiler
This one goes all the way back to one Professor Xavion. The fact that V is a Wizard does not help hir.

[Snake-Aes]

I cannot help but wonder, since some people said that most of Suvie's actions were suggested in the forums, but did Xykon use the fourth wall to bash Suvie?

Spell-wise, *every single possible action V could take* was suggested. Kinda hard not to hit a cockroach with a grenade's explosion if the roach is standing on it.

[lordhaw]

I know it's been said before, but Tsukiko coming in with the Xykon doll was a great moment! Kind of cute in a sick sort of way really. She reminds me of a teenager really.:smallamused:

Great comic. Though I'm thinking the rather large chunk of wall should have killed V personally. Xykon kicks ass! Didn't think a lich would be that strong. Can't remember much about them from my D&D days really though so that's not surprising.

Anyway, looking forward to seeing how this turns out. Is V going to be in a cage like O-Chul? Will he somehow escape? Tune in for the next episode of OOTS!!!

[Dark Matter]

Can any D&D players tell me why disintegrate didn't work?Level appropriate magic items. There's a ring of deflection or something that makes you a lot harder to target.

And thus V loses to level appropriate items, minions, and some degree of planning. If it'd just been the two of them X would have lost.

[Y'nokhs]

Wow.
Bye-bye V.
As expected, X won because of his magic items and allies, and I knew that Cloister couldn't be his only epic. Also, I find Jepthon's "later" to be a bit sinister...
Short of V dying, I see only two ways this could go.

O'chul breaks free/has his cage broken in the battle and tries to protect V. Xykon guns him down, causing the MITD to attack Team Evil.

or

Redcloak captures V, and holds her prisoner, either to interrogate (she knows the Orders weaknesses) or use as leverage against the Order later. He may even try to recruit her, given that she's likely already evil, admitted she was motivated by power-hunger, and has proved willing to work with evil forces to increase her power. He might even offer V a way out of the fiends' deal - can a lich have its soul taken?

[Teddy]

Ohh, poor V all beaten up and splatted, and now s/he's not even capable of beating rock (must have used scissor of some obscure reason).

I'm somewhat dissapointed that V didn´t even manage to kill one lowly hobgoblin in the battle...

[Roderick_BR]

Hah. And someone made fun of me once when I said to "drop a large rock" on top of a wizard to beat his high level magic protections :smalltongue:

[Fermatprime]

What's the "ewww"/"awww" quotient on the Xykon doll? (I'm personally a little squicked out.)

What people do have to remember is that V is not not-Evil now. My thought:

I know CHA isn't hir best stat, but it might be in V's best interest to try and join up with Team Evil now. The real question would be whether Xykon and Redcloak take hir

[Lunaya]

Think V will get the message when it's Xykon (literally) knocking some sense into hir? Even I've pretty much lost the will to cheer hir on. :smallfrown:

[Morgan Wick]

For whatever reason, at first I thought the battle would automatically end when the soul splice did, and only thought about the battle possibly continuing as an obstacle to what I was thinking about. I had suspected that a lot of talking was coming next (between Team Evil and finishing Roy's resurrection, not to mention a potential Linear Guild look-in, I think we can see how the remaining 10+ strips in the book will go), and who knows, maybe 654 will start like this:
:vaarsuvius:: NOOOOOOO!!!! It's gone! It's gone... I have lost the ability to teleport away from the battle, and moreover, without the sorcerer's power, am left without ANY spells prepared with which to defend myself!
:xykon:: Good! I can finish you off without breaking a sweat. And when we leave for the Western Continent I think I'll show your kind just how smart it is to go messing with me.
:redcloak:: Wait! She reminds me of somebody we met in Dorukan's Dungeon. The purple hair, red robes... you wouldn't happen to be of the Order of the Stick, would you?
:vaarsuvius: :smallconfused:: Yes, why?
:redcloak:: Perfect! You could be useful to me.
:xykon:: Uh, why are we blathering on when we could be pounding him further into paste?
:tsukiko:: Yeah, I have a gazillion different ways to make her a she-Xykon.
:jirix:: You really that sure it's a she?
:redcloak:: SSH! (describes what he could use V for, and that if V refuses they'll just kill him)
:vaarsuvius:: I suppose I have no choice but to go along with your wishes, on the condition that you answer one question: How in the Lower Planes do you know about soul splices? :smallconfused:

If Redcloak is wondering where the gates are or what they're like V may let slip that Roy knows, and/or Redcloak may throw him into prison along with O'Chul (as an insurance policy against O-Chul escaping), and we may have this exchange as well:
:xykon:: Hey, wait a minute. Didn't you say that Starshine chick that kept getting on our nerves was a member of that Order of the Twig or something? Why didn't you try and capture and interrogate HER? She was WAY hotter than this idiot - I can't even tell if it's a dude or a chick!
:redcloak:: I was more confident of getting information out of the paladin then!

[Kholdstare]

Their deal was "For as long as you can hold them". If V lost them it's V's bad.

They were most likely considering his unaltered willpower. They won't even be able to use him as a reference considering that his Soul Splice was forcefully broken by a lich,a girl in pigtails, and a guy in a fancy cloak. Unprecedented arcane power seems like it would be able to overcome anything short of a demi-god.

[silvadel]

I reiterate -- it is DANGEROUS to hold V captive.

The reasoning needs to be spoilered.

V has made an *ENEMY* of black dragons everywhere. Possibly all the way up the line to tiamat herself.... It would not surprise me one bit to have an army of dragons beseiging Azure City to try to get at V. The cloister effect would prevent them from having any information beyond that V was there(granted by the oracle).

[Volkov]

They were most likely considering his unaltered willpower. They won't even be able to use him as a reference considering that his Soul Splice was forcefully broken by a lich,a girl in pigtails, and a guy in a fancy cloak. Unprecedented arcane power seems like it would be able to overcome anything short of a demi-god.

I'm pretty sure Iggwilv, pre-godhood Vecna, Acererak, and Zagyg could thrash V even with all his souls. Especially Vecna, who was more powerful than the level 26 wizard level four archmage Iggwilv. The Deities and Demigods version isn't really accurate about his levels. He's more like level 36+ish wizard level ten archmage. The Mage power levels were Vecna>Zagyg>Either Mordenkainen or Iggwilv.

[Kaytara]

What people do have to remember is that V is not not-Evil now. My thought:


Vaarsuvius is Evil? How so? He's not acting any differently from the way he was before the Splice, or before Kubota's "trial". Just more extreme in his self-obsession. It's more "insane" than "evil".


Something people haven't mentioned yet is that now that V is back to normal, it's pretty likely that Redcloak, at least, will recognize h** (I doubt Xykon will, of course).

Nope, I definitely have, and a couple of others, too. :)


I'll be honest, I hope V dies. Ever since he abandoned the guards at Saphire City and has pretty much been a total d*** I lost all desire to root for him.

He's treated his allies like dirt, he treated his own party members (even the "non-Elan/Belkar" ones with nothing but contempt, heck he's even lost a sight on the purpose of his quest. He's not fighting Xykon to save the world, he's fighting Xykon to prove that his powers are greater then any others.

He stopped being a hero around the same time as he disintigrated the noble. Yeah, everyone rooted and cheered for him because "he's such a badass" but the actual ramifications of that are profound.

Basically, he's quickly become a villian of his own, selling his soul to demons, killing anyone that gets in his way (remember all those disintigration attempts on the lone demon? the mass genocide of black dragons).

Sure they're "technically" evil creatures, but if you've read the Origins of PC's book, you'll know that the Giant doesn't gloss over technicalities. Killing an evil creature for evil purposes (or in V's case apathy about wanting to deal with furture obstacles) is still an evil act.

I fully support Celia becoming the new mage of the party, and if/when V dies, I won't feel the slightest bit sorry. He brought it on himself and this is definitely the proper outcome of the path he set himself on.

While you're entitled to feel disgusted by this character, I have to nitpick that the way you phrase it makes it seem far less ambiguous than it is. You say it like V just randomly started spouting hate and and evilness because of nothing. In truth, V is what people like to call a "tragic hero" - someone who ultimately means well but is defeated at every turn by a certain fundamental flaw of theirs. Also keep in mind that the circumstances and events that have driven V to be the way he is now would completely break an average person. It is less than surprising that V isn't taking it particularly well, either. V doesn't need punishment, he needs therapy. After a person has been driven almost completely mad by the most improbable set of contrived coincidences in the world, you start judging them in a different manner.

[Jaysyn]

Can any D&D players tell me why disintegrate didn't work?

Disintegrate requires a successful (DEX based) ranged touch attack roll to connect. A ranged touch attack doesn't care what kind of armor you are wearing, but it does care if you are fast (High DEX / Dodge AC), concealed (percentage chance to outright miss), or if you have a Deflection effect active on you.

Basically V outright missed.

[Snake-Aes]

Disintegrate requires a successful (DEX based) ranged touch attack roll to connect. A ranged touch attack doesn't care what kind of armor you are wearing, but it does care if you are fast (High DEX / Dodge AC), concealed (percentage chance to outright miss), or if you have a Deflection effect active on you.

Basically V outright missed.

That disintegrate bounced off Xykon. He's either immune to it, or resisted it (like the death knight did back during the war)

[Jaysyn]

As awesome as this part of the story has been... V's defeat here also means really big trouble for the group back in Greysky as well. With no teleport out of the city how long will it take for Crystal's murder to be discovered?

You missed the strip where he teleported the whole Order to Azure Island.

[Jaysyn]

That disintegrate bounced off Xykon. He's either immune to it, or resisted it (like the death knight did back during the war)

Bzzzt!! Thanks for playing!

See where it says "Deflect" in little letters below the green ray? That's not a *fizzle* from SR. That's V *missing* due to Xykon's Deflection AC boosting spells.

So I'm right & you're right but you apparently don't understand the rules enough to know it.

[Jaysyn]

I reiterate -- it is DANGEROUS to hold V captive.

The reasoning needs to be spoilered.

V has made an *ENEMY* of black dragons everywhere. Possibly all the way up the line to tiamat herself.... It would not surprise me one bit to have an army of dragons beseiging Azure City to try to get at V. The cloister effect would prevent them from having any information beyond that V was there(granted by the oracle).

Chromatic dragons tend to not cooperate. Just saying.

[nonamearisto]

V is almost certainly going to be killed or captured. The only hope for him to possibly escape is to turn into the dragon that he turned into earlier... unless that change shape spell was dispelled as well (probably was.)

Short of O-Chul/MiTD intervening and/or the Azure city underground attacking, V might have the fiends somehow "save" him when they take his soul... if they can do that when he is still alive...

The Oracle spoke earlier "about the elf" when talking about dead people, although his definition of "dead" was off on occassion, especially when talking about windstriker (Miko's horse.) He might be hinting at the fact that V will be dead soon, or that his soul will be taken.

If V is simply captured, but retains his powers, he might be able to escape and simply use his own flight spell to get back to the order... although it is an awfully long flight...

[lordhaw]

What's the "ewww"/"awww" quotient on the Xykon doll? (I'm personally a little squicked out.)



Personally it's an ewww, though like I said earlier it's cute in a sick sort of way. But Tsukiko IS a necromancer and she'd likely think a normal doll was ewww. A Xykon doll to her would be the height of coolness I think.

[Teddy]

Disintegrate requires a successful (DEX based) ranged touch attack roll to connect. A ranged touch attack doesn't care what kind of armor you are wearing, but it does care if you are fast (High DEX / Dodge AC), concealed (percentage chance to outright miss), or if you have a Deflection effect active on you.

Basically V outright missed.

Nah, V hit, but Xykons protections deflected it (the deflection bonus made the difference between hit and miss), so it wasn't what I would call a outright miss.

EDIT: Ninja'd by Jaysyn 'mself. Got my slow internet to blame.

[snafu]

The whole point of the offer was to show that the three arch-fiends could cooperate. If V fails then their collective goal completely shatters.

The point wasn't for V to succeed. The point of an infernal temptation is to bring about the utter and eternal ruin of the subject, by means of giving them what they think they want. They gave V what she wanted, and it has brought her to her doom. She has indulged herself completely with evil power, and now finds herself defeated, that power gone, and she lies at the mercy of a greater power. There's surely good odds that V will demand her allegiance as the price of her life; and to refuse and to die now would be to admit defeat, and that V will never do. So V will immerse herself in a long saga of atrocities at Xykon's side, justified as necessary to survive and in terms of some increasingly dubious long-term greater good. Perhaps she'll forever be as deluded as Vegeta that some day she will have the power to defeat Xykon and prove herself the supreme wizard... and of course she'll never do it. The soul of Vaarsuvius will belong to Hell, not for a few hours, but for all eternity.

Meanwhile, in her short-lived career as the mightiest mage in the world, V performed spectacular feats of magic the like of which will never be forgotten. Dragons will whisper stories of terror to each other of a terrible slaughter which laid low so many all at a stroke. Paladin brotherhoods will pass along a tale of how a whole fleet lost at sea suddenly found the shores of a long-forgotten elven kingdom. An elven archmage in his tower will hear the lamentation of a humble baker, and learn the details of a dark deal, and record it in scrolls of lore. And from time to time all this will reach the ears of an ambitious magician seeking great power. 'Of course,' they'll say, 'Vaarsuvius met a terrible end, on this all the tales agree. But that was through her own recklessness. Certainly I will never be such a fool. I will seek out the fiends to make such a deal, and I will have the wisdom to abandon the power once my goals are achieved.'

Those three fiends are going home to a ticker-tape parade. This has been a triumph: HUGE SUCCESS.

[Undead Prince]

Dumb and… Dumber?!

V was an idiot in the last few strips, but in #653 he seems to have been upgraded to full-blown clinical imbecile.

1. Where were V’s Quickened spells? For two last rounds (three if we count the middle frame), his output is just one spell per round. With Jephthon's remaining high level spell slots, he can spontaneously quicken any spell Jephthon knows below 6th level – which could include niceties like

a. TELEPORT the Hell away!

b. WALL OF FORCE between himself and all enemies (no spells can penetrate it, can be removed only by Disintegrate or Disjunction; only Xykon and Tsukiko can maybe teleport across, and would have to waste a round to do it);

c. EVARD'S BLACK TENTACLES (a.k.a. "Evan's Tentacles of Forced Intrusion") would paralyze all three minions, and even Xykon if he’s less than 10ft above ground; grapple is guaranteed seeing how the attack bonus = Caster Level;

d. Dominate Person on Redcloak (followed by Redcloak casting Restoration on V),

etc… etc…. etc...

He could be casting all of those IN ADDITION to his regular one Standard Action spell per round. He did it up until 653. In 653, during final confrontation, he... forgets?!

Hell, even Magic Missile, a level 1 Evocation, does 20,5 average damage, doesn't allow a save, doesn't need a ranged touch attack, and isn't resistable by protection from elements spells... two of those Quickened would hit Xykon for 41 damage, with 160 from two Sunbursts (assuming Xykon saves every time, which is unlikely) it's 201 damage, 80 from the first Sunburst makes it 281... with X's average 169 hp at 26 level, can you say "destroyed lich"?

2. Where are the powerful non-epic spells from the splices? Such as:

a. MAZE or GATE from Ganonron (what does he have for his specialist conjurer 8 and 9th level slots?);

b. SUNBURST, PRISMATIC WALL, PRISMATIC SPHERE, WISH... Sunburst was the only spell that actually worked on Xykon, why not repeat? Wish would remove the negative levels, Prismatics would give total protection from spells... and that's only the Core spells!

Instead, V uses his own 6th level Disintegrate, when Xykon already dodged his previous ranged touch attack – which, again, was his own low level Dimensional Anchor, the one he couldn’t hit an imp with three times in a row!

So not only V behaves like a complete moron, totally forgetting even things he’s been successfully using 1 strip ago (SUNBURST! QUICKENED SPELLS!!), he’s not even USING the Soul Splice!

This is so damn unfair and disappointing.

Sure, Rich provided an explanation – V has to concentrate on maintaining the splice, which evidently precludes him from thinking with any measure of coherence. But THAT is such a banal Diabolus Ex it’s sad. If keeping the so-called Ultimate Arcane Power is so hard it actually precludes you from using it – the entire deal doesn’t make any damn sense! And neither does any “moral message” which may be underlying V’s storyarc: he DIDN’T get UAP, all he got was a good dose of FEEBLEMIND.

Epic caster battle, my butt.

[Snake-Aes]

Bzzzt!! Thanks for playing!

See where it says "Deflect" in little letters below the green ray? That's not a *fizzle* from SR. That's V *missing* due to Xykon's Deflection AC boosting spells.

So I'm right & you're right but you apparently don't understand the rules enough to know it.

Oh, so it was "deflect" written there? I did not read it. Now please drop the "I understand the rules and you don't" ball.

[Arkenputtyknife]

Quick question for the D&D experts: The SRD description for Superb Dispelling says "… the character takes 10d6 points of backlash damage." I presume "the character" means the caster, but it's unclear. Did Xykon or V take the damage?

Regarding that big chunk of wall: A foot-thick wall would be considered paper-thin in a medieval castle, and tissue paper for an exterior wall. It wouldn't last a minute against a guy with a pick, never mind a mangonel or trebuchet. Fortified walls were often ten feet or more thick.

[Ted The Bug]

I LOVED Tsukiko's slippers.
And this does not look very good...

[Y'nokhs]

Vaarsuvius is Evil? How so? He's not acting any differently from the way he was before the Splice, or before Kubota's "trial". Just more extreme in his self-obsession. It's more "insane" than "evil".


V may be insane, but that doesn't preclude her being evil. No matter how you dice it, murdering dozens of beings for no reason other than that they may pose a threat to you is evil, no matter their alignments. Heck, even making a deal with fiends is an capital E Evil act, no matter how good your intentions are or how justifiable the cause. But as Xykon got V to admit to him, she isn't doing this out of noble intentions. V simply wants more power, and the chance to demonstrate it. "Extreme self-obsession" is evil. You argue that V can't be evil because she's not acting any different than before the splice. As the fiends said, the splice had no effect on V's alignment, it just gave her the power and the excuse. Killing Kubota was an evil act. Maybe not enough to drop her alignment, but still evil. IF she had known who he was, what he had done, and concluded that he had to be brought to justice by force, then that would have been fine. But she executed him without giving him a second thought, because it was convenient, same as the dragons. "Killing for convenience" and "without compassion" falls directly under the definition of Neutral Evil. So does extreme self-obsession.

[Snake-Aes]

Quick question for the D&D experts: The SRD description for Superb Dispelling says "… the character takes 10d6 points of backlash damage." I presume "the character" means the caster, but it's unclear. Did Xykon or V take the damage?

Regarding that big chunk of wall: A foot-thick wall would be considered paper-thin in a medieval castle, and tissue paper for an exterior wall. It wouldn't last a minute against a guy with a pick, never mind a mangonel or trebuchet. Fortified walls were often ten feet or more thick.
It goes to the caster...Xykon in this case. I believe the scratch on his right arm as he cast it is the representation of that damage.

[Lord Seth]

I'll say it again: Xykon. Is. Awesome.

[Arkenputtyknife]

It goes to the caster...Xykon in this case. I believe the scratch on his right arm as he cast it is the representation of that damage.

Didn't notice that. Thanks.

[Undead Prince]

So, it was good until it lasted! V got pwned! I care for him/her and I like the character, but I have to say this: This shows how you end relying only on yourself and not on others.

No. No, it doesn't.

V got owned because he was stupid. You know, dumb. That's IT. It doesn't mean anything. It doesn't have any moral, except the obvious one of Darwinism: dumbness gets you extinct.

V didn't need to "rely" on anyone, not one iota. He could have done, or taken, all that he ever needed for reliably defeating Xykon, without an ounce of good will from anyone else, simply by making not brilliant, not genius, not exceptionally smart - only not incredibly dumb tactical decisions.

Oh, and BTW. In DnD (I won't quote real life at you, we're talking game here) relying is a weakness. It's a weakness for the character, and it can be a strain for the players. Some embrace this weakness in order to be psychologically closer to their teammates. But it's still a weakness, and can be easily exploited by BBEG/DM.

[Lord Seth]

b. SUNBURST, PRISMATIC WALL, PRISMATIC SPHERE, WISH... Sunburst was the only spell that actually worked on Xykon, why not repeat? Wish would remove the negative levels, Prismatics would give total protection from spells... and that's only the Core spells!I don't know about the others, but it flat-out states right here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html) that V could not use Wish.

[Darkhands]

Meanwhile, in her short-lived career as the mightiest mage in the world, V performed spectacular feats of magic the like of which will never be forgotten. Dragons will whisper stories of terror to each other of a terrible slaughter which laid low so many all at a stroke. Paladin brotherhoods will pass along a tale of how a whole fleet lost at sea suddenly found the shores of a long-forgotten elven kingdom. An elven archmage in his tower will hear the lamentation of a humble baker, and learn the details of a dark deal, and record it in scrolls of lore. And from time to time all this will reach the ears of an ambitious magician seeking great power. 'Of course,' they'll say, 'Vaarsuvius met a terrible end, on this all the tales agree. But that was through her own recklessness. Certainly I will never be such a fool. I will seek out the fiends to make such a deal, and I will have the wisdom to abandon the power once my goals are achieved.'

Those three fiends are going home to a ticker-tape parade. This has been a triumph: HUGE SUCCESS.

This right here? This is awesome.

[Simanos]

I cannot help but wonder, since some people said that most of Suvie's actions were suggested in the forums, but did Xykon use the fourth wall to bash Suvie?
Best post in whole thread!
Was Xykon's wall attack an attack of opportunity?

[garylian]

Cleanup in Aisle 1! Bring a mop and bucket for V's ego!

[Chirios]

No. No, it doesn't.

V got owned because he was stupid. You know, dumb. That's IT. It doesn't mean anything. It doesn't have any moral, except the obvious one of Darwinism: dumbness gets you extinct.

V didn't need to "rely" on anyone, not one iota. He could have done, or taken, all that he ever needed for reliably defeating Xykon, without an ounce of good will from anyone else, simply by making not brilliant, not genius, not exceptionally smart - only not incredibly dumb tactical decisions.

Oh, and BTW. In DnD (I won't quote real life at you, we're talking game here) relying is a weakness. It's a weakness for the character, and it can be a strain for the players. Some embrace this weakness in order to be psychologically closer to their teammates. But it's still a weakness, and can be easily exploited by BBEG/DM.

Your forgetting the fact that he got zapped by them traps. That might have affected his thinking a bit.

[Rotipher]

Chromatic dragons tend to not cooperate. Just saying.

Moreover, if vengeful black dragons did come seeking V, what's to stop Xykon from simply cutting a deal with them? Xykon probably doesn't know Epic Teleport himself, so having a chunk of his army flown to the Western Continent on dragon-back would be an excellent trade-in for a prisoner he'd already have interrogated thoroughly.

[Arkenputtyknife]

I don't know about the others, but it flat-out states right here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html) that V could not use Wish.

No it doesn't. It says V couldn't use Wish to duplicate divine magic.

[Lord Seth]

I'll be honest, I hope V dies. Ever since he abandoned the guards at Saphire CityYou mean rather than stick around and pointlessly get killed by Hobgoblins? There was no benefit to stay there unless you wanted to die futilely. The guards didn't halt the Hobgoblins even slightly, the Hobgoblins ran right over them.

So the choice is...run away and live to fight another day...or die without accomplishing anything with your death. Yeah, that's a hard choice.


I fully support Celia becoming the new mage of the party, and if/when V dies, I won't feel the slightest bit sorry. He brought it on himself and this is definitely the proper outcome of the path he set himself on.No, Celia should get killed just like V did. No, that might make Roy angst, which would be annoying. Celia should be erased from existence instead.

(No, I don't like Celia much)

[Undead Prince]

Quick question for the D&D experts: The SRD description for Superb Dispelling says "… the character takes 10d6 points of backlash damage." I presume "the character" means the caster, but it's unclear. Did Xykon or V take the damage?

The caster takes backlash damage. You can read it in the SRD. In the Making Epic Spells section.

Xykon's Superb Dispelling probably just doesn't have the backlash mitigating factor. It only reduces the cost by 10 DC, and Superb Dispelling already costs 59 DC - already v. hard to cast for an unoptimised 26 level sorcerer (29 ranks in Spellcraft, +6 from Intelligence - non-casting stat for Xykon, gives 35; he would need a +23 Spellcraft item, or a +13 item and a feat, to reliably cast it). So give or take 10 DC doesn't change the situation much.

[Lord Seth]

No it doesn't. It says V can't use Wish to duplicate divine magic.Whoops, well I feel silly for misunderstanding that.

In any case, Wish is quite frankly highly unreliable. Unless you're willing to go through the extremely lengthy "and I don't want X, or Y, or Z, or..." to make sure you actually get what you want, you can really screw yourself up with it. And a battle like this one isn't exactly conducive to figuring all of that out.

[Teddy]

Dumb and… Dumber?!

Text...

Well, at least some things could be explained by energy drain + maximized energy drain. That is 8 + 2d4 (average 5) negative levels, and that is an average of 13 lost high-level spells. Taken into account that V already casted some high-level spells in hir battle with ABD, that is quite a lot of high-levels.

And sorcerers can't cast quickened spells (without special magic items or feats, which Jephton might of course have)

And, well, V wasn't really acting very tactic, but s/he didn't have an unlimited time for planning, like the typical gamer.

[civver]

Thank goodness the comic is updating regularly. Anyway, looks like V will pay for his pride.

[Zevox]

1. Where were V’s Quickened spells? For two last rounds (three if we count the middle frame), his output is just one spell per round. With Jephthon's remaining high level spell slots, he can spontaneously quicken any spell Jephthon knows below 6th level
No, no she could not. Sorcerers cannot quicken spells. All their metamagic automatically takes longer to cast than usual - one-action spells become full-round actions, anything longer than that takes one round longer. Which the core rules explicitly state makes it impossible for a Sorcerer to quicken anything.

If Ganoron ran out of Quickened spells, V had none. If he ran out of useful quickened spells, V had no reason to use the ones she still had. Simple as that.

Zevox

[The MunchKING]

Awwwwweee... The Xykon doll is so cute.

I wonder if Xykon just has a rediculously high strength stat for a Sorceror, and THAT's why he likes beating the **** out of people with blunt objects.

Oh and I didn't get the George Mallory bit until I wikied him. I thought he was going to be one of those Old West gunfighters who used to go around challenging the fasted guns he could find, just to prove he was better.

[Omegonthesane]

I don't know about the others, but it flat-out states right here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html) that V could not use Wish.

Technically they never said V can't use Wish at all, but you're right that V cannot use Wish for the purpose Undead Prince is referring to.

Also, I didn't see anything moronic about V's decisions. For a start, who's saying that wasn't Jephton's Disintegrate? For another, V's own Disintegrate - if it hit - might well have finished Xykon in one. For a third... where, in the SRD, can Sorcerers quicken Spells? Seriously, they are specifically banned from Quickened spells because their metamagic turns standard action casting into full round casting.

The only moronic decision I think V made was attacking Xykon at all, and I perfectly sympathise with that - it's a testament to his Will save that he's able to function at all after what he's suffered. Seriously, he sold his booping soul and was denied any chance whatsoever to do anything worth the price he paid.
Judging by the contrived nature of the universe conspiring to knock V down a peg or two, he ought to be saved by some contrived coincidence so he can live to reflect on it. O-Chul and MitD would be the best foreshadowed way. Does anyone really want all that harrowing character development to be for nothing?

[David Argall]

The density of stone is about...
...irrelevant. Our artist just wanted to make it clear V had lost, and the impossibly big rock makes that clear. Whether there was any even slightly rational way for this to happen is simply being ignored.



Why didn't Xykon just punch V?

From the SRD:
"Paralyzing Touch (Su)
Any living creature a lich hits with its touch attack must succeed on a Fortitude save or be permanently paralyzed. Remove paralysis or any spell that can remove a curse can free the victim (see the bestow curse spell description).

Seems like a wise first course of action to take against a spellcaster, espically one who immediately appears to have worse tangible chatacter attributes than expected. Minimum, the save DC is 25 (higher depending on X's actual HD and Cha mod),
The MM lich entry sets the save DC at 16 [The reference to Bestow Curse refers to ways to negate the paralysis, not to the save], which makes V about a base 50-50 shot to save, and a few other bonus should make her the easy favorite.
While the game rules don't make it so, delivering a touch attack to a flying foe ought to be close to impossible. You have the three dimensions and both parties are on the move, and not in just straight lines. And our lich is a spellcaster who just prefers casting spells.



now that V is back to normal, it's pretty likely that Redcloak, at least, will recognize h** (I doubt Xykon will, of course).
Well, if the writer wants the plot to go that way... But Redcloak only saw V at the dungeon about two years ago. At Azure City, V was pretty much out of his sight. He did see Roy, but showed no sign of recognizing him. So given a longer time and a less central character, Redcloak probably won't recognize V.
Of course, V telling Redcloak is quite a different matter. V talks too much at all times, and so when somebody is demanding she talk or else... We can expect V to tell everything, whether in defiance, force, or just plain talking.



I'm curious to see what happens next. I really hope V doesn't die, but it seems pretty inevitable to me. Redcloak might try to save V for interrogation, but I don't think Xykon will see reason in this case - V did try to scratch his rep, after all. Maybe it's time for Aarindarius to finally make an entrance?
Not much chance. Aarindarius is pretty much just a name, and the party is pretty much supposed to rescue themselves. They are the heroes, not kiddies watched over by some nurse.

Now there are several ways for V to get loose...
[spoiler]
The fiends are presumed to need a free V, and one they can control, and V's loss brings their contract with V into question. So they send Qar with a revised deal, one epic teleport for accepting the deal as valid. V, and likely O-Chul, thus escape an inescapable prison, and they worry Xykon who gets upset and rushes off to the next gate.
V and O-Chul combine abilities some way and break out. This does not give us an automatic way to get Xykon moving again, but V can be presumed to tell Redcloak that Roy is on the way to the next gate, and that should panic Team Evil into rushing off to the next continent. [spoiler]



Even though he dismissed it and complained about it, Xykon won because he let his team do their jobs and help him.
While the minions did something, they are shown as standing around, with efforts being too weak to bother either party. So no, we can't say Xykon won because of their aid. The intent of the scene is to show Xykon as big bad, and the others are shown as pretty much cheerleaders. They may have made things a little easier for him, but he was to win no matter what they did.

[Lamech]

Dumb and… Dumber?!

V was an idiot in the last few strips, but in #653 he seems to have been upgraded to full-blown clinical imbecile.

1. Where were V’s Quickened spells? For two last rounds (three if we count the middle frame), his output is just one spell per round. With Jephthon's remaining high level spell slots, he can spontaneously quicken any spell Jephthon knows below 6th level – which could include niceties like

<snip>

2. Where are the powerful non-epic spells from the splices? Such as:

a. MAZE or GATE from Ganonron (what does he have for his specialist conjurer 8 and 9th level slots?);

b. SUNBURST, PRISMATIC WALL, PRISMATIC SPHERE, WISH... Sunburst was the only spell that actually worked on Xykon, why not repeat? Wish would remove the negative levels, Prismatics would give total protection from spells... and that's only the Core spells!

Instead, V uses his own 6th level Disintegrate, when Xykon already dodged his previous ranged touch attack – which, again, was his own low level Dimensional Anchor, the one he couldn’t hit an imp with three times in a row!

So not only V behaves like a complete moron, totally forgetting even things he’s been successfully using 1 strip ago (SUNBURST! QUICKENED SPELLS!!), he’s not even USING the Soul Splice!

This is so damn unfair and disappointing.

Sure, Rich provided an explanation – V has to concentrate on maintaining the splice, which evidently precludes him from thinking with any measure of coherence. But THAT is such a banal Diabolus Ex it’s sad. If keeping the so-called Ultimate Arcane Power is so hard it actually precludes you from using it – the entire deal doesn’t make any damn sense! And neither does any “moral message” which may be underlying V’s storyarc: he DIDN’T get UAP, all he got was a good dose of FEEBLEMIND.

Epic caster battle, my butt.

Maybe because Jepton is a sorc? It would take a full round action so X would send a meteor swarm her way? Also don't forget they lost 13ish caster levels. The conjurer would have needed a 17th caster level to cast ninth level spells. 15th caster level for 8th level spells. V may have lost her upper level spells.

[Simanos]

Dumb and… Dumber?!

V was an idiot in the last few strips, but in #653 he seems to have been upgraded to full-blown clinical imbecile.

1. Where were V’s Quickened spells? For two last rounds (three if we count the middle frame), his output is just one spell per round. With Jephthon's remaining high level spell slots, he can spontaneously quicken any spell Jephthon knows below 6th level – which could include niceties like

a. TELEPORT the Hell away!

b. WALL OF FORCE between himself and all enemies (no spells can penetrate it, can be removed only by Disintegrate or Disjunction; only Xykon and Tsukiko can maybe teleport across, and would have to waste a round to do it);

c. EVARD'S BLACK TENTACLES (a.k.a. "Evan's Tentacles of Forced Intrusion") would paralyze all three minions, and even Xykon if he’s less than 10ft above ground; grapple is guaranteed seeing how the attack bonus = Caster Level;

d. Dominate Person on Redcloak (followed by Redcloak casting Restoration on V),

etc… etc…. etc...

He could be casting all of those IN ADDITION to his regular one Standard Action spell per round. He did it up until 653. In 653, during final confrontation, he... forgets?!

Hell, even Magic Missile, a level 1 Evocation, does 20,5 average damage, doesn't allow a save, doesn't need a ranged touch attack, and isn't resistable by protection from elements spells... two of those Quickened would hit Xykon for 41 damage, with 160 from two Sunbursts (assuming Xykon saves every time, which is unlikely) it's 201 damage, 80 from the first Sunburst makes it 281... with X's average 169 hp at 26 level, can you say "destroyed lich"?

2. Where are the powerful non-epic spells from the splices? Such as:

a. MAZE or GATE from Ganonron (what does he have for his specialist conjurer 8 and 9th level slots?);

b. SUNBURST, PRISMATIC WALL, PRISMATIC SPHERE, WISH... Sunburst was the only spell that actually worked on Xykon, why not repeat? Wish would remove the negative levels, Prismatics would give total protection from spells... and that's only the Core spells!

Instead, V uses his own 6th level Disintegrate, when Xykon already dodged his previous ranged touch attack – which, again, was his own low level Dimensional Anchor, the one he couldn’t hit an imp with three times in a row!

So not only V behaves like a complete moron, totally forgetting even things he’s been successfully using 1 strip ago (SUNBURST! QUICKENED SPELLS!!), he’s not even USING the Soul Splice!

This is so damn unfair and disappointing.

Sure, Rich provided an explanation – V has to concentrate on maintaining the splice, which evidently precludes him from thinking with any measure of coherence. But THAT is such a banal Diabolus Ex it’s sad. If keeping the so-called Ultimate Arcane Power is so hard it actually precludes you from using it – the entire deal doesn’t make any damn sense! And neither does any “moral message” which may be underlying V’s storyarc: he DIDN’T get UAP, all he got was a good dose of FEEBLEMIND.

Epic caster battle, my butt.

Nicely put.

[Omegonthesane]

The caster takes backlash damage. You can read it in the SRD. In the Making Epic Spells section.

Xykon's Superb Dispelling probably just doesn't have the backlash mitigating factor. It only reduces the cost by 10 DC, and Superb Dispelling already costs 59 DC - already v. hard to cast for an unoptimised 26 level sorcerer (29 ranks in Spellcraft, +6 from Intelligence - non-casting stat for Xykon, gives 35; he would need a +23 Spellcraft item, or a +13 item and a feat, to reliably cast it). So give or take 10 DC doesn't change the situation much.

If you look, Xykon sprouts a scratch on his arm when he casts the spell; he probably kept the 10 DC. Not being someone who plays the actual game, I have to wonder - surely if Xykon has such a hard time casting Superb Dispelling, every 1 DC counts?

[kalkyrie]

One thing not mentioned much- Xykon 'acting twice' in a row at the end (Supreme Dispel, Rock to the Face). Throw that in with him disrupting V's Greater Teleport, and it seems fairly obvious what happened.

Xykon floored V with an Attack of Opportunity.

*headdesk*
V needs to reread the section of the rulebook on 5ft steps and casting defensively. He could have escaped to the fleet.

Also, V's attack bonus is low enough to miss Xykon twice in a row with rays? Ouch. Not very ultimate arcane powery. (Pity, since Disintegrate is a two-hit kill. Though Xykon may have Spell Resistance -Disintegrate up anyway. Disintegrate is dangerous enough to demand it).

I also thought Team Evil were heavily risking defeat. Xykon gets hit by a Sunburst, and Redcloak never bothers healing it? Xykon doesn't have *that* many hit points. Unless the Soul Splice gave V silly numbers of hitpoints, a second Meteor Swarm (or Fireball/Fire Storm from the peanut gallery) would have killed him, once they knew he had no fire protection.

(Xykon casting a Still Spell *immediately* is also interesting. Am I right in that most sorcerors have to spend a full round to cast Metamagic? That would have given V enough time to... miss him with the Disintegrate ray. Aaargh)

[The Xykon doll and Xykon's derisive lines were very cool, as a less negative point]

[SoC175]

1. Where were V’s Quickened spells? For two last rounds (three if we count the middle frame), his output is just one spell per round. With Jephthon's remaining high level spell slots, he can spontaneously quicken any spell Jephthon knows below 6th level – which could include niceties like
Sorcerers can not use quicken spell. It makes sense that V has not cast a single quickened spell since the maximized energy drain.

[Teddy]

Maybe because Jepton is a sorc? It would take a full round action so X would send a meteor swarm her way? Also don't forget they lost 13ish caster levels. The conjurer would have needed a 17th caster level to cast ninth level spells. 15th caster level for 8th level spells. V may have lost her upper level spells.

Yes, exactly as I said, and even though it´s the spliced souls levels, and not V's, that get drained, they haven't really displayed that amazing amount of unlimited arcane power so that it wouldn't get hurt really hard by 8+2d4 negative levels, which also may have hurt V's bad aim even more.

[Kaytara]

V may be insane, but that doesn't preclude her being evil. No matter how you dice it, murdering dozens of beings for no reason other than that they may pose a threat to you is evil, no matter their alignments. Heck, even making a deal with fiends is an capital E Evil act, no matter how good your intentions are or how justifiable the cause. But as Xykon got V to admit to him, she isn't doing this out of noble intentions. V simply wants more power, and the chance to demonstrate it. "Extreme self-obsession" is evil. You argue that V can't be evil because she's not acting any different than before the splice. As the fiends said, the splice had no effect on V's alignment, it just gave her the power and the excuse. Killing Kubota was an evil act. Maybe not enough to drop her alignment, but still evil. IF she had known who he was, what he had done, and concluded that he had to be brought to justice by force, then that would have been fine. But she executed him without giving him a second thought, because it was convenient, same as the dragons. "Killing for convenience" and "without compassion" falls directly under the definition of Neutral Evil. So does extreme self-obsession.

Several problems:
While you may feel that way, a lot of those acts aren't something the forumites here can agree on to be evil, Kubota's execution being the most prominent example - and the other acts were motivated by stress, desperation and righteous anger so much that it can't be just ignored. For example, the Familicide.... Vaarsuvius has faced two black dragons, one of which has eaten his friend, and another threatened to do and partially succeeded in doing terrible things to his loved ones. Seconds after disposing of that other dragon, he sees an option to eliminate a significant chunk of the sadistic monsters and goes for it. He lashes out as hard as he can; he just happens to have a very big gun.
By contrast, an EVIL character could have spontaneously decided to use a spell to kill a bunch of black dragons on a slow day just for the kicks.
Please, you don't have to reply to this, I'm just throwing this out there. It's not that clear-cut, that's all I'm trying to say.

But even all that is beside the point, because I was not talking about V's deeds, but specifically his alignment. By your logic, Belkar should be Good by now because saving Hinjo's life and doing lots of Good things for a Good cause in a group of mostly Good adventurers is Good no matter how you look at it.

[The MunchKING]

Somebody else pointed out that V has lost the black cloak, but nobody seems to have noticed her fangs gone as well.

Which begs the question: Why does she still have her evil hair?

It's just long because she hasn't paid attention to her appearances for the last few months. Before the splice she just kept it banded up out of her way. :smalltongue:

[Arkenputtyknife]

The caster takes backlash damage. You can read it in the SRD. In the Making Epic Spells section.

Thanks for the pointer. I wasn't going to plow through the SRD in the hope of stumbling across an accurate explanation of ‘backlash damage’.

A well-written glossary would have been helpful. Or better, simply replacing ‘the character’ (ambiguous) with ‘the caster’ (unambiguous) in the spell description.

[Omegonthesane]

Yes, exactly as I said, and even though it´s the spliced souls levels, and not V's, that get drained, they haven't really displayed that amazing amount of unlimited arcane power so that it wouldn't get hurt really hard by 8+2d4 negative levels, which also may have hurt V's bad aim even more.

IIRC V's aim only became horrible as a result of trance deprivation. For plot purposes I'd just handwave that Xykon, as an epic flying lich, is good at dodging things - it's already been mentioned that his touch AC would be consistent with the deflect effect on Disintegrate.

[kerravon]

Nooooo! Poor V! S/he's my favorite character, flaws and all!

[Omegonthesane]

A question to the rule-lawyers here: When is the 10d6 backlash damage from the Superb Dispelling for Xykon coming along? Or did Rich just houserule it out? :smallconfused:
Xykon got a little scratch when he cast it. Given he has d12s for hit dice, it's not unreasonable that 10d6 won't be enough to push him into dead territory. If it was 28d6 backlash then I'd be fuming, but 10d6 he can get away with.

[The MunchKING]

In addition, Liches get damage reduction 15/bludgeoning and magic, meaning any physical damage they take is reduced by 15 points unless the weapon striking them is both magical and or the bludgeoning type (such as a mace, club, etc - anything you bash with rather than slash or stab). That'll negate the damage from most low-level physical attackers, archers, or characters that are only secondarily physical combatants (such as a non-buffed Cleric).

Or 50HD Black Dragons...

[wootage]

And the winner is... the plot!

Like there was ever any doubt :)

[spargel]

Wow, V actually tried to teleport away?

[factotum]

Regarding that big chunk of wall: A foot-thick wall would be considered paper-thin in a medieval castle, and tissue paper for an exterior wall. It wouldn't last a minute against a guy with a pick, never mind a mangonel or trebuchet. Fortified walls were often ten feet or more thick.

Except we're not IN a mediaeval castle--we're in Xykon's tower, which, if you look back at the recent pictures of Azure City, is a weird organic-looking building. I don't think it's made of stone...chitin, maybe, or some other very light but strong material. Also, Xykon may well think he doesn't need to worry too much about siege engines considering Azure City seems to be fairly isolated...they chose it as the first target because they didn't have to conquer several other kingdoms in order to reach it!

[liooil2000]

Well, it looks like V is totally screwed anyways.

[One Skunk Todd]

Was the Cloister broken when V zapped through? If so are there ways for the others to locate her and snatch her out of there? I wonder if she even noticed O'chul and could let the others know he's there.

[Undead Prince]

Well, at least some things could be explained by energy drain + maximized energy drain. That is 8 + 2d4 (average 5) negative levels, and that is an average of 13 lost high-level spells. Taken into account that V already casted some high-level spells in hir battle with ABD, that is quite a lot of high-levels.

13 highest level spells, OK. Both Jephthon and Ganonron have at least 3 epic spells; Ganonron cast 2, so 4 left. By level 20, Jephthon has 6 base 9th level spells, Ganonron 4. Assuming they have casting stats of 36 (modest for epic), they get +2 bonus 9th level spells each, for a total of 14 9th level spells and 4 epic spells.

Doubtless they also took Improved Spell Capacity: they cast three 10th level spells (Quickened Disintegrate, Quickened Chain Lightning and Empowered Sunburst), which means that in all probability both G and J have taken Improved Spell Capacity at least once (since with a moderately epic casting stat mages get two spells per level above 9). Therefore, at least one 10th level slot left, probably more.

So, they've got at least about 19 spells of level 9 and higher. Even with -13 from Energy Drain, that's 6 left. Six 9th level spells. Where were they in this battle?!


And sorcerers can't cast quickened spells (without special magic items or feats, which Jephton might of course have)

There are in fact numerous feats that give Sorcerers regular metamagic ability. There's even the Sorcerer Class Feature from PHBII which gives this ability for free.

Jephthon's an Epic Sorcerer Archmage, "Master of arcane flexibility". Spontaneous metamagic would be a must for this kind of character.

But even if you want to stick to Core (although I don't see any reason why ancient epic mages should be thus limited, when even Tsukiko and Redcloak have no problems digging out non-Core features), there's the Automatic Quicken Spell epic feat, which gives Quickening without even requiring higher-level spell slots, and specifically overrides the Sorcerer class restriction.

If Jephthon, "master of flexibility", doesn't even have that, he's too lame for words.

Also, the selection of metamagicked spells points that they're spontaneously metamagicked, as they are all highly situational. I mean, why would Ganonron have an Empowered Sunburst in one of his two 10th level slots? This spell is only useful against undead or creatures that are actively harmed by sunlight. And if Sunburst was Empowered by Jephthon, it means Jephthon has overcome the sorcerer metamagic limitations, as we haven't seen V skip an entire round to cast this spell.

This brings me to another thought. V never used any of Jephthon's Archmage abilities. Most of them, such as Mastery of Counterspelling (deflect that Energy Drain!), Mastery of Elements (immune to cold, electricity and fire? Eat Acid!), would have been very useful in this fight.


And, well, V wasn't really acting very tactic, but s/he didn't have an unlimited time for planning, like the typical gamer.

1. V had genius-level intelligence.

2. A great deal of ranks in Spellcraft and Knowledge(arcana).

3. He's a 14th level wizard - a heroic scale person specialising in arcane magic.

4. He did have enough time to prepare, he just chose not to.

5. The tactical suggestions didn't take more than a minute to formulate.

[Undead Prince]

No, no she could not. Sorcerers cannot quicken spells. All their metamagic automatically takes longer to cast than usual - one-action spells become full-round actions, anything longer than that takes one round longer. Which the core rules explicitly state makes it impossible for a Sorcerer to quicken anything.

The core rules also "explicitely" have the Automatic Quicken Spell feat, which "explicitely" overrides this restriction, in addition to removing the +4 spell level cost of Quicken.

And, again, I see no reason to limit the spliced epic mages to Core. They're among the most powerful spellcasters that ever lived, do you seriously think they'd be more limited in their choice of arcana than the likes of Tsukiko?

[KyrtFurey]

I actually like this comic alot more than I should... sure, Xykon is still inexplicably powerful, but the comic has veered away from the direction it seemed doomed to go at the end of the last issue. It stuck with one inconsistency (Xykon's lvl), even beefing him up more to justify it, while giving Ganeron and Jephton the respect they deserved and freeing them of the splice before defeat. V actually fights a little smarter, Xykon gets a bunch of items to defray the difference in power further, and it was much less forced than the last issue... so, what lvl is Xykon now? It seems to keep getting pushed higher...


What level?

Anywhere between 21 and 30.

26? Possible. And its possible that he used a scroll to cast Invisibility. Or used an item or had a feat to allow Maximise. I don't think there's any way to be certain.

In all probability? 21-23.

EJL

[Charles Phipps]

1. V had genius-level intelligence.

2. A great deal of ranks in Spellcraft and Knowledge(arcana).

3. He's a 14th level wizard - a heroic scale person specialising in arcane magic.

4. He did have enough time to prepare, he just chose not to.

5. The tactical suggestions didn't take more than a minute to formulate.

A couple of points here.

1. V is an idiot. Not on the level of Elan, but it's been routinely stated he has incredibly poor Wisdom and he's demonstrated this time and time again.

2. V knows nothing about the Undead, only spells. He doesn't know the basic fact that all Gamers do that Lichs have a psylantery. That means he doesn't know Xykon's invulnerability.

3. V is a profoundly arrogant anxyhole who overestimates what Arcane magic can do.

4. He's already operating on 1/3rd of his gained spells and spent at least some of the Epic Spell Slots already.

Seriously, I wonder why so many forum goers are taking V's defeat so personally. It's like everyone is MAD that V didn't show himself to be the superior Ubber-Munchkin Tactical Combat computer.

Instead, being the arrogant bossy PC that he was.

[Faldrath]

If, as I suggested in a previous post, Redcloak does recognize V as a member of the OotS now that the splices are gone, I doubt they will kill h**. Why? Because, if Team Evil is still in Azure City, it means they haven't figured out where the next gate is. Since torturing O-Chul clearly isn't working, and it would be very reasonable for Redcloak to assume that V would know the gates' location, V is likely to become the next target for torture. And, given that h** mental state and will are probably very broken right now, they might very well succeed.

[Murdim]

Assuming they have casting stats of 36 (modest for epic)Yeah, sure, modest for a well-equiped, well-buffed epic caster. Oh, wait...



Jephthon's an Epic Sorcerer Archmage, "Master of arcane flexibility". Spontaneous metamagic would be a must for this kind of character. I don't see any feat who permits this in core.

EDIT : oh, yes, of course. Those "Automatic X spell" feats. Well, Jephton would need to be at least level 27 to take his first Automatic Quicken Spell feat, and level 30 to cast 7th, 8th and 9th level Quicken spells. And apparently, he's supposed to be the weakest of the three spliced souls.

[derfenrirwolv]

1) Much MUCH better. They at least went back and forth, and v was at least DOING something besides standing there and getting blasted with the same spell over and over. Xykon didn't completely mary sue his way through this (only a little)

2) Xykon apparently has the non core sudden still feat, since grappling normally hoses sorcerers completely. (you can only use a standard action to cast, use of still spell makes it a full round action for a sorcerer)

3) Don't count V out yet. The shapechange might still be active, or he could free o chul and monster san, or get dominated by Tusiko. Hmmm.. turn into something really small (like a beetle under a rock) crawl into xykons brain cavity and burst out, alien style.

4) Xykon apparently has a strength score (buffed or not) in the 40's. Not only did he pick up a large chunk of wall (its bigger than a wizzie) but did so as a move action

5) LOVED tusiko's Xykon plushie.

[The MunchKING]

13 highest level spells, OK. Both Jephthon and Ganonron have at least 3 epic spells; Ganonron cast 2, so 4 left. By level 20, Jephthon has 6 base 9th level spells, Ganonron 4. Assuming they have casting stats of 36 (modest for epic), they get +2 bonus 9th level spells each, for a total of 14 9th level spells and 4 epic spells.

Doubtless they also took Improved Spell Capacity (otherwise no Quickened Disintegrate and Quickened Chain Lightning), which gives at least two 10th level spells (1 base, 1 bonus from casting stat), and probably many more (as Improved Spell Capacity is one of the best epic feats for casters).

So, they've got at least about 20 spells of level 9 and higher. Even with -13 from Energy Drain, that's 7 left. Seven 9th level spells. Where were they in this battle?!

Cast? I mean with the time Stop/Quickened Disintigrates/et. all that have been thrown around already?


There are in fact numerous feats that give Sorcerers regular metamagic ability. There's even the Sorcerer Class Feature from PHBII which gives this ability for free.

Jephthon's an Epic Sorcerer Archmage, "Master of arcane flexibility". Spontaneous metamagic would be a must for this kind of character.

But even if you want to stick to Core (although I don't see any reason why ancient epic mages should be thus limited, when even Tsukiko and Redcloak have no problems digging out non-Core features), there's the Automatic Quicken Spell epic feat, which gives Quickening without even requiring higher-level spell slots, and specifically overrides the Sorcerer class restriction.

But don't you have to be like 30 to even AQ your first three spell levels?


If Jephthon, "master of flexibility", doesn't even have that, he's too lame for words.

Or he's not level 40 yet...


This brings me to another thought. V never used any of Jephthon's Archmage abilities. Most of them, such as Mastery of Counterspelling (deflect that Energy Drain!), Mastery of Elements (immune to cold, electricity and fire? Eat Acid!), would have been very useful in this fight.

Like we even know which ones he has. (Thus how useful they would be.)

Besides, unless V had an Energy drain Prepped for Counterspelling, It wouldn't have done her a damn bit of good.


1. V had genius-level intelligence.

And geniuses NEVER make the occasional stupid mistake, and are DEFINATNLY never over dconfident about their abilities. :smalltongue:


2. A great deal of ranks in Spellcraft and Knowledge(arcana).

3. He's a 14th level wizard - a heroic scale person specialising in arcane magic.

4. He did have enough time to prepare, he just chose not to.

5. The tactical suggestions didn't take more than a minute to formulate.

But rely on "well he SHOULD have this that and the other" rather than what he DOES have...

[Simanos]

Wow, V actually tried to teleport away?
Yeah, I didn't think he would either.

[The MunchKING]

EDIT Apperently it's not 30th Level it's 30 ranks of Spellcraft.

Woops. Point is still, minimum 26th Level needed for that, and 29th to get all 3.

[Klose_the_Sith]

Squee! I want that Xykon plush that Tsukiko had! :smallbiggrin:

[Foryn Gilnith]

This is the first time Xykon has ever really enthused me. Great strip. Made me realize why Strength isn't always the best dump stat, and why Xykon truly must never become a demilich.

[Tharianor]

No. No, it doesn't.

V got owned because he was stupid. You know, dumb. That's IT. It doesn't mean anything. It doesn't have any moral, except the obvious one of Darwinism: dumbness gets you extinct.

For this you gain my esteem from the point of view of the biologist. Can I put this in my sig.?


V didn't need to "rely" on anyone, not one iota. He could have done, or taken, all that he ever needed for reliably defeating Xykon, without an ounce of good will from anyone else, simply by making not brilliant, not genius, not exceptionally smart - only not incredibly dumb tactical decisions.

Oh, and BTW. In DnD (I won't quote real life at you, we're talking game here) relying is a weakness. It's a weakness for the character, and it can be a strain for the players. Some embrace this weakness in order to be psychologically closer to their teammates. But it's still a weakness, and can be easily exploited by BBEG/DM.

Ok "rely" on wasn't an appropiate word choice. I was talking more of teamwork. I wasn't implying that you should go on in a campaign only thrusting your teamates.
From a D&D point of view I agree with you, in fact in D&D I don't like to survive only thanks to on my teammates. On this I concord.

I'm not discussing game dynamics but simply what is my opinion on the story and what the autor may try to convey.

[Undead Prince]

don't forget they lost 13ish caster levels. The conjurer would have needed a 17th caster level to cast ninth level spells. 15th caster level for 8th level spells. V may have lost her upper level spells.

Negative levels don't remove caster levels. All they do with regard to spellcasting is remove one highest level spell.

So Jephthon & Ganonron were still epic level mages, they've just lost a few of their highest spells, but they should have had plenty more available.

[Undead Prince]

Yeah, sure, modest for a well-equiped, well-buffed epic caster. Oh, wait...

Assuming untemplated humans: 18 base, +3 age, +5 inherent (books), +7 levels (lvl 28), +4 item (V's headband of intellect, with regard to Ganonron) = 37 INT; 33 CHA for Jephthon (easily increased to 37 by casting Cat's Grace, which would immediately give extra spell slots for the sorcerer, and could have been done, e.g., while V was waiting for Haley in Greysky).


I don't see any feat who permits this in core.

I don't see any reason to limit them to core, when other, much weaker characters are not thus limited.

And if PHBII is not Core, it's very, very close (an extension of Core).


EDIT : oh, yes, of course. Those "Automatic X spell" feats. Well, Jephton would need to be at least level 27 to take his first Automatic Quicken Spell feat, and level 30 to cast 7th, 8th and 9th level Quicken spells. And apparently, he's supposed to be the weakest of the three spliced souls.

Don't see why he's weaker than Ganonron.
Don't see why they can't be lvl 27. The epic spells we've seen certainly put them much higher than that.

Also, Ganonron having the extremely situational Empowered Sunburst prepared in a 10th level slot (of which he probably has only two)? Highly unlikely.

[Trixie]

V got owned because he was stupid. You know, dumb. That's IT. It doesn't mean anything. It doesn't have any moral, except the obvious one of Darwinism: dumbness gets you extinct.

Nope, pure Darwinism is far more likely to take away excess intelligence than to increase it.

And you still haven't produced even one of these simply-not-dumb tactical decisions (most of your points were either invalid or already adressed in the strip) :smallsigh:

[Y'nokhs]

If, as I suggested in a previous post, Redcloak does recognize V as a member of the OotS now that the splices are gone, I doubt they will kill h**. Why? Because, if Team Evil is still in Azure City, it means they haven't figured out where the next gate is. Since torturing O-Chul clearly isn't working, and it would be very reasonable for Redcloak to assume that V would know the gates' location, V is likely to become the next target for torture. And, given that h** mental state and will are probably very broken right now, they might very well succeed.
I'm not so sure Redcloak will recognize V (their association has been on opposite ends of the battlefield) but in any case he'll probably want to know where such a powerful caster came from and who gave him the soul splices. True, V's mind is pretty shattered, but I think conversion is a more plausible course than torture. V has shown how far she will go to get power, and with her alignment in the tank, well, joining Xykon would be a less evil way to get it then selling her soul. Xykon, for his part, needs a Arcane flunky (Tsukuko is to "mystic therugey" to qualify) and seems to understand V's motives ("I can respect that" "here's a pro tip for you")
Tsukiko's "team-up" comment may be prophetic

[Undead Prince]

For this you gain my esteem from the point of view of the biologist. Can I put this in my sig.?

Thanks, and yes.


Ok "rely" on wasn't an appropiate word choice. I was talking more of teamwork. I wasn't implying that you should go on in a campaign only thrusting your teamates.
From a D&D point of view I agree with you, in fact in D&D I don't like to survive only thanks to on my teammates. On this I concord.

I'm not discussing game dynamics but simply what is my opinion on the story and what the autor may try to convey.

Well, V is certainly being taught a lesson here. In my opinion, the lesson is not to be dumb; but I guess V will never learn it.

What ticked me off was how a number of posters started rejoicing over V's failures once he gained power, always talking about how V should suffer humility, reject the power, run crying to friends/family etc. Kaytara used the word "schadenfreude", and in fact, it may be correct. Some people just don't like seeing others empowered, and want to drag them down immediately. Apparently, it even applies to fictional characters.

Of course, other people 8=) might identify a little with the empowered characters, and thus feel frustrated when these characters are suddenly hit with the idiot stick (or rather, hit with the idiot stick more often and harder than usual).

The resulting dialogue is a healthy psychological exercise, so to speak 8=)

[Rin_Hunter]

It was just suggested on another thread as I was about to post this here: Rich should start selling OotS dolls. I'd buy them all!

Also, this may not be the right place for this and I'm sorry if it isn't, does anyone know how close we are to the next book being released?

[The Blackbird]

V's thoughts right before being hit by the rock.

:vaarsuvius:Oh my god a giant rock! I can't believe it it's a giant rock! It's a rock that is giant!

Oh and Tsukiko with the Xykon doll was awesome.Not to mention what she was wearing
:smalltongue:

[Badgercloak]

Great comic Giant, You Rock!

Is anyone else disturbed that Xycon put more foresight into his strategy, fire immunity?!, than V?

[kalkyrie]

Seriously, I wonder why so many forum goers are taking V's defeat so personally.

Anticlimax. Suspension of disbelief.

This could have been an amazing fight. V could been summoning demonic legions through Azure City, Mind Controlling goblin regiments, dropping Meteor Swarms from the skies...

...and Team Evil could have been doing it right back at him, better.


Instead V teleported blind with a handful of buffs into the middle of the BigBad's throne room.


Plotwise, V had to lose. Gamewise, V using his brain would still probably lose.
It would have been fun to watch.

[Kornaki]

Great comic Giant, You Rock!

Is anyone else disturbed that Xycon put more foresight into his strategy, fire immunity?!, than V?

That's really long term planning... he probably came up with that idea a decade ago

[Y'nokhs]

Well, V is certainly being taught a lesson here. In my opinion, the lesson is not to be dumb; but I guess V will never learn it.

What ticked me off was how a number of posters started rejoicing over V's failures once he gained power, always talking about how V should suffer humility, reject the power, run crying to friends/family etc. Kaytara used the word "schadenfreude", and in fact, it may be correct. Some people just don't like seeing others empowered, and want to drag them down immediately. Apparently, it even applies to fictional characters.

Of course, other people 8=) might identify a little with the empowered characters, and thus feel frustrated when these characters are suddenly hit with the idiot stick (or rather, hit with the idiot stick more often and harder than usual).

The resulting dialogue is a healthy psychological exercise, so to speak 8=)
I don't see how wanting V to fail and be redeemed is objectionable. I think you misunderstand the rational behind it. V doesn't deserve to be punished because she's powerful, she deserves to be punished because she's evil. Debate the technicalities of V's actions all you want, but Inkyrius, Haley, Belkar, and Tsukiko all immediately recognized V was completely evil. The power has corrupted her, in a way, caused her to drop the pretense of courtesy and respect she gave other people, and eroded her delusion that she acted out of goodness and not lust for power. And yes, people do like to see evil characters fall from their power because of their flaws - in V's case, the extreme arrogance which made her to stupid to fight effectively. It's karma, not schadenfreude.

[kalkyrie]

Debate the technicalities of V's actions all you want, but Inkyrius, Haley, Belkar, and Tsukiko all immediately recognized V was completely evil.

Having people think you are evil, does not make you evil. Miko anyone?
It's actions and intent.


Interestingly V's actions with the power sound honourable.

Trying to save your family, kill off 'evil' (stupid D&D rule btw) dragons, reunite your friends, move a fleet to food and safety, and then try to kill the lich who may end the world.

Intent... less so. Though not Belkar-evil by a long way yet. The reaction after he familicided probably helped.

[spargel]

I don't see how wanting V to fail and be redeemed is objectionable. I think you misunderstand the rational behind it. V doesn't deserve to be punished because she's powerful, she deserves to be punished because she's evil. Debate the technicalities of V's actions all you want, but Inkyrius, Haley, Belkar, and Tsukiko all immediately recognized V was completely evil. The power has corrupted her, in a way, caused her to drop the pretense of courtesy and respect she gave other people, and eroded her delusion that she acted out of goodness and not lust for power. And yes, people do like to see evil characters fall from their power because of their flaws - in V's case, the extreme arrogance which made her to stupid to fight effectively. It's karma, not schadenfreude.

If that's the case, people should have rejoiced when Belkar got hit with the MOJ.

Other than the familcide, V has been trying to help the Good side ever since he got his soul splice, even though it's for the wrong reasons.

If I wanted to see V punished, I'd try finding non-idiot ball and diabolus ex machina ways.

[Abraxes]

What a fantastic update. Add me to the wanting a Xykon doll list!

On a less fun note, why do some people get so uptight about d&d rules in this! Yeah, I can understand that's it's bound to happen since the characters themselves reference the rules for comedic effect, and it's become an integral part of the story in some ways, but take a chill pill, honestly... it's the writers story, not yours.

I only say this after reading people bitching about Xykon moving around a big chunk of rock. So what? It was fun to watch/read. Isn't that enough? But no.. some readers have to go into denial mode and start calculating how it couldn't be possible. Can't you just enjoy the story and move on?

And, to totally contradict everything I just said :P, a quick 30 second skim of the srd rules brings up http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/telekineticSphere.htm, that's close enough for me, so I'm satisfied with that. Of course someones bound to reply and tell me how that spell isn't good enough.. meh.

Edit: Oh, by srd rules, I mean srd spell list btw.

[ibiwan]

Rock beats Elf.

:belkar:: Rock, on Elf buddy!

[Boogastreehouse]

Question: Why is Xykon willing to 'go easy' on a knight-on-a-valiant-quest like Roy -- remember , he tried to give Roy the option of walking away alive -- but pulls out all the stops for a challenge to his rep by an evil magic-user?

Respectfully,

Brian P.
Knight-on-a-valiant-quest has nothing Xykon wants, and provides full XP EVERY SINGLE TIME Xykon beats him, he provides far more if he's higher level. And he keeps coming back.

Killing him is like killing the goose that lays the golden egg, only stupider, at least you get a goose dinner out of the goose.



Good one Doug, but I think I can add to that theory.

Crushing mid-level Roy wouldn't be nearly as much fun as crushing high-level Roy. With Xykon it's all about having fun; toying with your enemy, stringing them along with false hope (remember O-Chul in the throne room?), that sort of thing. I think he's willing to risk losing an unimportant fight, as long as he has fun.


I also want to point out that we again have a rock-paper-scissors moment going on. In episode 424, as you may recall, during the battle for Azure City Vaarsuvius defeated a bunch of earth (alright, titanium) elementals, casting spells off of previously acquired scrolls. Afterwards V laughingly declares that "paper beats rock." That was the last time that V was victorious and in control. His/her plan to defend the breach made in the wall by the aforementioned elementals was, while ingenious, ultimately a failure. A failure that has been repeated over and over again with every setback that V has endured since.

There have been other comments on the boards about the relevance of rock-paper-scissors to the story (like the monster-in-the-darkness getting a paper cut), but I'm starting to really believe that it isn't a coincidence. I think that the giant might be doing it on purpose.

Now, as Xykon drives home what I perceive to be the final nail in the coffin containing Vaarsuvius' ego, and he might as well be shouting "No! Rock beats paper! Mwaa-ha-haaa!"

This is it V. Evolve or die.


:belkar:: Rock, on Elf buddy!

Nice.

[DirgeChoir]

So I've seen a lot of "V is going to Die, good bye V" stuff...and "The only thing that can save V is a healthy dose of Deus Ex...However, I theorize that surviving this encounter is easy and requires nothing more than the plot at hand. Specifically, I refer to strip 633 - the terms of the splice commits V's soul to each of the 3 entities to which he made the deal for an equal amount of time as the splice in an order yet to be determined. Exactly when this "sentence" must be carried out was left entirely un-defined. I'm guessing that since the splice is now broken, V will have to pay up "her" part of the debt immediately and will get "saved" by the terms of the splice (that's right, just like Redcloak and Tsukiko in 653, I'm saying V's a chick, I trust Redcloak's True-Seeing spell and all those "she" pronouns they used).

[Code Black]

On a less analytical note, when did Xykon Soul Splice with The Hulk?

GAMMA CRUSH!

[Calmness]

Yeah, i thought of Gamma Crush as well. Man, The Hulk was awesome in those games.

[JeptCloak]

Dumb and… Dumber?!

V was an idiot in the last few strips, but in #653 he seems to have been upgraded to full-blown clinical imbecile.

1. Where were V’s Quickened spells? For two last rounds (three if we count the middle frame), his output is just one spell per round. With Jephthon's remaining high level spell slots, he can spontaneously quicken any spell Jephthon knows below 6th level – which could include niceties like

a. TELEPORT the Hell away!

b. WALL OF FORCE between himself and all enemies (no spells can penetrate it, can be removed only by Disintegrate or Disjunction; only Xykon and Tsukiko can maybe teleport across, and would have to waste a round to do it);

c. EVARD'S BLACK TENTACLES (a.k.a. "Evan's Tentacles of Forced Intrusion") would paralyze all three minions, and even Xykon if he’s less than 10ft above ground; grapple is guaranteed seeing how the attack bonus = Caster Level;

d. Dominate Person on Redcloak (followed by Redcloak casting Restoration on V),

etc… etc…. etc...

He could be casting all of those IN ADDITION to his regular one Standard Action spell per round. He did it up until 653. In 653, during final confrontation, he... forgets?!

Hell, even Magic Missile, a level 1 Evocation, does 20,5 average damage, doesn't allow a save, doesn't need a ranged touch attack, and isn't resistable by protection from elements spells... two of those Quickened would hit Xykon for 41 damage, with 160 from two Sunbursts (assuming Xykon saves every time, which is unlikely) it's 201 damage, 80 from the first Sunburst makes it 281... with X's average 169 hp at 26 level, can you say "destroyed lich"?

2. Where are the powerful non-epic spells from the splices? Such as:

a. MAZE or GATE from Ganonron (what does he have for his specialist conjurer 8 and 9th level slots?);

b. SUNBURST, PRISMATIC WALL, PRISMATIC SPHERE, WISH... Sunburst was the only spell that actually worked on Xykon, why not repeat? Wish would remove the negative levels, Prismatics would give total protection from spells... and that's only the Core spells!

Instead, V uses his own 6th level Disintegrate, when Xykon already dodged his previous ranged touch attack – which, again, was his own low level Dimensional Anchor, the one he couldn’t hit an imp with three times in a row!

So not only V behaves like a complete moron, totally forgetting even things he’s been successfully using 1 strip ago (SUNBURST! QUICKENED SPELLS!!), he’s not even USING the Soul Splice!

This is so damn unfair and disappointing.

Sure, Rich provided an explanation – V has to concentrate on maintaining the splice, which evidently precludes him from thinking with any measure of coherence. But THAT is such a banal Diabolus Ex it’s sad. If keeping the so-called Ultimate Arcane Power is so hard it actually precludes you from using it – the entire deal doesn’t make any damn sense! And neither does any “moral message” which may be underlying V’s storyarc: he DIDN’T get UAP, all he got was a good dose of FEEBLEMIND.

Epic caster battle, my butt.

I'm certainly still annoyed, and you know the rules better than I do so much kudos for pointing out some of the silliness. It's obviously a railroad plot to make Xykon look awesome.

On the other hand, it's less contemptible than the previous issue, which had about a number of absurd things going on at once:
1. Xykon beefed up massively (and since that's the simplest explanation, I'll go with that, not "metamagic rods we can't see, etc).
2. V acts much dumber than he should.
3. Ganeron and Jephton are "losers"
4. Soul Splices, I know all about them!
5. Lame plot induced Trap which is almost useless except to get V
No battle damage (at the time) was also annoying.

V is still dumb, but grasping hand is less dumb than chain lightning, and disintegrate is less dumb than dimensional anchor.
Basically, we're down to inconsistencies 1, 4 and a little of 2.

1 is a little annoying. All logic suggests Durkon dispelled Xykon's greater invisibility, and yet I've seen estimates from 26-32 based on Xykon's actions this issue. Some people are holding out for 21 still, but it seems incredibly unlikely.
I am much, much happier that 3 is largely repaired. Firstly, despite what seems to be a massive amount of energy drain on both Jephton and Ganeron, they are still able to throw out some reasonably decent spells, rather than being finished. They don't lose the fight, V loses the splice with Ganeron and Jephton keen to keep it up. Xykon gets a bunch of special items to further even the fight up, and Redcloak can't do anything to V, even weakened. The scene of Xykon v.s V with an undefined clash of spells is also nice, and further makes room for Ganeron and Jephton being what they were promised to be.
Yes, it's still not great, and V still should have won (where were the rest of the higher lvl spells?), but it's much better than where the previous issue was going. It could still easily be believed Ganeron is lvl 30+, which is where a multidimensional conquerer should be.

Frankly I'm kind of hoping V just becomes evil now. It'd be alot better than the alternative story IMO.

[Raenir Salazar]

i edited the TV tropes article to reflect V now having the IdiotBall.

[spargel]

i edited the TV tropes article to reflect V now having the IdiotBall.

There's a ton of things there that you can edit about V.

[mizzim]

V flying. In a robe. ROBE.
tsukiko and redcloak calling hir a girl.
I personally have come to a conclusion.

[D_Lord]

Do note people, is site is one of the spots where the mega and powergames, get their information. BUT V isn't one of them. V isn't a Batman, he doesn't see everything coming at once. Some of the basic spells to the batman wizard V just doesn't have. Like the fly spell. Stop expecting every wizard to be a Batman, they aren't and personal oppen (I find that the games when I play are much more fun without a batman, or powergamers.)

[Charles Phipps]

Of course, other people 8=) might identify a little with the empowered characters, and thus feel frustrated when these characters are suddenly hit with the idiot stick (or rather, hit with the idiot stick more often and harder than usual).

The resulting dialogue is a healthy psychological exercise, so to speak 8=)

I don't have much sympathy for Lottery Winners who waste their money, exceptionally rich kids who find out that people don't like them, or the absurdly popular for being born with the right genes. As a man who worked very hard to condition himself and learn in school, I think, yes, people who get free rides deserve to be smacked down they try and lord it over people.

V wasn't empowered. He didn't earn his power. He had it GIVEN to him.

[Gwynfrid]

The shapechange might still be active.

I was thinking just of that possibility. After all, V had all 3 splices in place and in full shape when she cast it, so it's reasonable to expect it has a pretty high caster level (all right... so had many of the other buffs, now gone). V might still surprise everyone by turning into a great green wyrm and filling up the room with acid gas. Heck, I'd even allow her a surprise round for it. After all, she isn't the only superarrogant character around the place.

Now, I'm not saying that's likely, just that it would be a fun twist. I think the only reason this is remotely possible is because the Giant has a knack for the unexpected. And even if it happens, V should end up losing IMHO.

That being said... Thanks, Giant, that was a cool epic battle. All the rules expertise displayed in this thread is worthless, compared to the great, great in-character action and dialogue. Such action, naturally, includes huge mistakes, otherwise there wouldn't be any characterization to play with in the first place.

[spargel]

I don't have much sympathy for Lottery Winners who waste their money, exceptionally rich kids who find out that people don't like them, or the absurdly popular for being born with the right genes. As a man who worked very hard to condition himself and learn in school, I think, yes, people who get free rides deserve to be smacked down they try and lord it over people.

V wasn't empowered. He didn't earn his power. He had it GIVEN to him.

Too bad it came at the cost of whatever brainpower he had left, whatever luck he had left, his relationship with his family, and probably his soul.

[Skeppio]

i edited the TV tropes article to reflect V now having the IdiotBall.

Is V on the Moral Event Horizon page for the whole Familicide thing? If not, I think an edit is due.

[spargel]

Is V on the Moral Event Horizon page for the whole Familicide thing? If not, I think an edit is due.

Yes he is.

[Skeppio]

Yes he is.

Excellent.

On a side note, does Xykon still have that acid tank lying around? I just thought of a great idea of what to do with V.

[Nightfall]

It was just suggested on another thread as I was about to post this here: Rich should start selling OotS dolls. I'd buy them all!

As a doll collector myself, I absolutely would, too!:smallbiggrin:

[spargel]

Excellent.

On a side note, does Xykon still have that acid tank lying around? I just thought of a great idea of what to do with V.

That's if V didn't already die from the rock to the head.

[JeptCloak]

I was thinking just of that possibility. After all, V had all 3 splices in place and in full shape when she cast it, so it's reasonable to expect it has a pretty high caster level (all right... so had many of the other buffs, now gone). V might still surprise everyone by turning into a great green wyrm and filling up the room with acid gas. Heck, I'd even allow her a surprise round for it. After all, she isn't the only superarrogant character around the place.

Now, I'm not saying that's likely, just that it would be a fun twist. I think the only reason this is remotely possible is because the Giant has a knack for the unexpected. And even if it happens, V should end up losing IMHO.

That being said... Thanks, Giant, that was a cool epic battle. All the rules expertise displayed in this thread is worthless, compared to the great, great in-character action and dialogue. Such action, naturally, includes huge mistakes, otherwise there wouldn't be any characterization to play with in the first place.

I thought of this too, but the fiends did say "if you make a prismatic sphere, it ends when the splice does", so shapeshift should be over too.

[Kalbron]

V can't be dead.

After all, you can't beat the moral(s) of: "don't hold onto the idiot ball" and "big bad can't be beaten mid-season" along with "always tip the author" into the skull of a protagonist if they're dead now can you? ;)

[Skeppio]

That's if V didn't already die from the rock to the head.

<Insert "Clean up in Aisle 3!" joke>

[Mysterio]

Just one quick comment... a lot of people are wondering how Xykon was strong enough to pick up a huge chunk of wall and use it as a weapon... well, a simpler explanation might be, "he didn't". You don't actually see him pick anything up. That whole back wall was crumbled pretty well in 652... maybe he just helped a chunk that was broken loose and resting precariously to fall. Instead of a lift, more like a hearty nudge. Even the motion lines just imply a downward arc, nothing says he picked it up from the ground...

[DougTheHead]

Too bad it came at the cost of whatever brainpower he had left, whatever luck he had left, his relationship with his family, and probably his soul.

No, that's all V. The soul splice isn't responsible for any of those problems- heck, they only ask for a lease on the soul! V's actions after activating the Soul Splice are entirely his/her own, and blaming it on the Soul Splice is like a lottery winner wasting all their winnings, and then blaming it on the fact that they won the lottery in the first place.

I don't think there's a clear moral at work here, except for, you know, don't sell/lease your soul to demons (anyone else think V's relative weakness in battle is due to the demons exaggerating the abilities of the soul splice?), but I think there is a greater point about the game. If you play tabletop games with an eye toward doing nothing but powergaming with an unbeatable character who fixes everyone's problems all the time, you're only entertaining yourself. Everyone else at the table will get fed up with you really quick. Note that Rich already pointed this out with the "half-ogre with an eight-foot chain" strip.

[mlsq42]

I'm an adult male, but I want a Xykon Plushie. I don't care.

And to those who wanted an epic battle for the ages, I can sorta see your disappointment, just don't call it bad storytelling or stupid. It's just a story you didn't want to see, doesn't make it bad.

Like how being handed the 'idiot ball' isn't automatically bad storytelling, in that V's a rest-deprived egotistical self-obsessed being drunk on their own power that is both depowered somewhat and already used up. Acting in a stupid way isn't a problem with the damm writing.

[Artevoi]

If that's the case, people should have rejoiced when Belkar got hit with the MOJ.

I did, and rejoiced again after the "evolve or die" bit because it was some character development for the one-dimensional (and unfunny) psychopath.

And I'm celebrating again now, not just because I hate elves (pointy-eared Mary Sues), but because I also hate the "lol, magik solves EVERYTHING!!!" mentality.

[Tobimaro]

Well, I kinda felt that V would get beaten by Xykon, but that fight seemed rather underwhelming. I really thought that V could have shown better. But, not having to rest, I guess that Xykon put those past few months to good use with the item creation feats that he has.

[spargel]

No, that's all V. The soul splice isn't responsible for any of those problems- heck, they only ask for a lease on the soul! V's actions after activating the Soul Splice are entirely his/her own, and blaming it on the Soul Splice is like a lottery winner wasting all their winnings, and then blaming it on the fact that they won the lottery in the first place.


Except for his horrible, horrible, luck.


I did, and rejoiced again after the "evolve or die" bit because it was some character development for the one-dimensional (and unfunny) psychopath.

And I'm celebrating again now, not just because I hate elves (pointy-eared Mary Sues), but because I also hate the "lol, magik solves EVERYTHING!!!" mentality.

I'd probably celebrate, but V's had the Horrible Luck and I'm Stupid curses for over 100 strips, so him getting himself screwed over was pretty predictable. I'll probably rejoice if V goes through his own "evolve or die" moment.

By the way, magic really does solve almost everything in OOTS.

[Fermatprime]

This has no real bearing on the plot, but I'm spoilering it anyway out of habit.

I wonder if Xykon is going to take his Ring of Wizardry back? He might have made a new one, but a quick glance at SRD doesn't tell me that they don't stack, so...

[nonamearisto]

I just realized that V cannot cast change shape to turn into a dragon, as the deal stated that any spell casted during the splice that had an ongoing duration would end. V is almost certainly going to be captured or killed unless:

1. O-Chul/MiTD intervenes.

2. The fiends intervene.

3. The Azurite underground/a rebellion among the Azurites intervenes.

4. Some form of blatent Deus Ex Machina/Diobolos Ex Machina.

5. (Very highly unlikely) V gets the chance to join Xykon.

Even with Trance-Deprivation and all, V really should have chosen better spells, or at least, should have just used sunburst a couple of times more (even casting it twice might have been enough to finish Xykon, and the rest of the spellcasters there would have fallen fast, as neither of them could even affect V at all without Xykon's help first.)

[Warren Dew]

Can any D&D players tell me why disintegrate didn't work?

Because the Oracle already predicted that Xykon would survive to see Girard's gate.

[linkhyrule5]

Warning, wall of text analysis spoilered below


I just realized... we have a fairly accurate judge on X's level here.


Superb Dispelling
Abjuration
Spellcraft DC: 59

59. In order for Xykon to cast it consistently, he has have 59-10=+49 bonus to spellcraft (since you can take 10 on epic spells). Assuming he has a +18 modifier to Int:

Base 23 (+6.5) (18+5 bonuses) (which already implies he put his bonuses into INT instead of CHA)
Read a +5 Tome of Clear Thought (+2.5)
Be wearing an Item of Epic Intellect (+14) (+7) (spending an obscene amount of xp on that, especially since we know its not a headband, what with not being able to even see it and all, but oh well...)

So, best case scenario (since at least(1) is rather unlikely: 49-18=31 skill points. Which means character level 27.

Minimum.

:smalleek::smalleek::smalleek:

A more reasonable estimate, assuming an unmodified, but maxed base Int (18, or +4), gives us another 3 levels. So character level 30.

Now, he could have gotten lucky, but X probably wouldn't even try unless he had more than a 1 in 4 chance of succeeding, especially when simply energy draining him seems to work decently. So it could be as low as 22-25, but probably its decently higher.

If I did something wrong, be nice, I'm new to epic rules :smallbiggrin: Seriously, I do appreciate criticism.

Oh, something else I'd like to point out: 13 negative levels means a -13 penalty to attack rolls. Best case scenario, with a maxed base Dex and an item bonus suitable for :vaarsuvius: level (+4, +6, which is a +2 or +3 to the modifier), that's +4+3+7 (BAB for a 14th level wizard) -13=+1 to hit. Against an epic sorcerer with lots of magic items, not looking so good, is it? Even assuming that the splices gave him bonuses, they still couldn't be higher than a +6 bonus each, since they have no independent magic items, and assuming they both read Manuals of Quickness in Action, that's +13 to hit. Against a reasonable touch AC of 10+4 dex+10 deflection (4k xp is not something to care about at those high levels)=24, that's not enough to reliably hit him. Heck, even with his unaltered bonus, that's still missing 1:4 times.

And of course, this entire time I've been assuming that almost every character involved rolled two or three 18's on their stats. So, frankly, I'm surprised V did as well has V did.


Wall of text over :D. Also mizzim: 1) Underwear and 2) You perv.

[spargel]

I seem to recall V putting hir robes on first with no underwear.

[Sylvius]

Shouldn't Bixby's Crushing Hand be green? :smallbiggrin:

[DSCrankshaw]

Warning, wall of text analysis spoilered below


I just realized... we have a fairly accurate judge on X's level here.



59. In order for Xykon to cast it consistently, he has have 59-10=+49 bonus to spellcraft (since you can take 10 on epic spells). Assuming he has a +18 modifier to Int:

Base 23 (+6.5) (18+5 bonuses) (which already implies he put his bonuses into INT instead of CHA)
Read a +5 Tome of Clear Thought (+2.5)
Be wearing an Item of Epic Intellect (+14) (+7) (spending an obscene amount of xp on that, especially since we know its not a headband, what with not being able to even see it and all, but oh well...)

So, best case scenario (since at least(1) is rather unlikely: 49-18=31 skill points. Which means character level 27.

Minimum.

:smalleek::smalleek::smalleek:

A more reasonable estimate, assuming an unmodified, but maxed base Int (18, or +4), gives us another 3 levels. So character level 30.

Now, he could have gotten lucky, but X probably wouldn't even try unless he had more than a 1 in 4 chance of succeeding, especially when simply energy draining him seems to work decently. So it could be as low as 22-25, but probably its decently higher.

If I did something wrong, be nice, I'm new to epic rules :smallbiggrin: Seriously, I do appreciate criticism.

Oh, something else I'd like to point out: 13 negative levels means a -13 penalty to attack rolls. Best case scenario, with a maxed base Dex and an item bonus suitable for :vaarsuvius: level (+4, +6, which is a +2 or +3 to the modifier), that's +4+3+7 (BAB for a 14th level wizard) -13=+1 to hit. Against an epic sorcerer with lots of magic items, not looking so good, is it? Even assuming that the splices gave him bonuses, they still couldn't be higher than a +6 bonus each, since they have no independent magic items, and assuming they both read Manuals of Quickness in Action, that's +13 to hit. Against a reasonable touch AC of 10+4 dex+10 deflection (4k xp is not something to care about at those high levels)=24, that's not enough to reliably hit him. Heck, even with his unaltered bonus, that's still missing 1:4 times.

And of course, this entire time I've been assuming that almost every character involved rolled two or three 18's on their stats. So, frankly, I'm surprised V did as well has V did.


Wall of text over :D. Also mizzim: 1) Underwear and 2) You perv.
Or,
Take Epic Skill Focus for +10 to Spellcraft. Combine with regular Skill Focus for +13. Use items which give a bonus to Spellcraft--bonus^2 x 100 gp gives you the cost, so a +20 Spellcraft item would cost 40,000 gp, chump change for epic characters (20th level characters start with 760,000 gp). That way, he doesn't even need to max spellcraft.

[Ampersand]

Another fantastic strip. I love watching Xykon work...and, in true villain fashion, he gets his best lines when he's putting the smack down on the protagonists. :smallamused: This rates up with the "three things you failed to consider."


If that's the case, people should have rejoiced when Belkar got hit with the MOJ.

I thought those were some of the best strips we've had in some time. Part of it was enjoying seeing Belkar finally get some comeuppance after a couple hundred strips of being, essentially, the ******* who hides behind the whole "party unity" idea to get away with his assholary.


While you may feel that way, a lot of those acts aren't something the forumites here can agree on to be evil, Kubota's execution being the most prominent example

The forumites here can't agree that the sky is blue, water is wet, or birds go "tweet."

[FoE]

I don't see any reason to limit them to core, when other, much weaker characters are not thus limited.

They've been dead for a while?


Don't see why he's weaker than Ganonron.
Don't see why they can't be lvl 27. The epic spells we've seen certainly put them much higher than that.

Well, Jephton was the one who lost his Epic spell slots when Xykon hit him with the first Energy Drain. Jephton was the only Soul Splice who didn't use an Epic spell so far, and the voice that says his spell slots were lost mentioned he hadn't used any yet.


Also, Ganonron having the extremely situational Empowered Sunburst prepared in a 10th level slot (of which he probably has only two)? Highly unlikely.

Remember three things:
1) Oots characters are not necessarily optimized. It's sometimes laughable how unoptimized they are.
2) Always remember that the characters do not have players controlling them. They don't have time to stop and consider what spell they might use or what attack they might try.
3) V is having to focus all of her willpower into maintaining the Soul Splices, which must be exhausting. But to make the situation worse, she is also guilt-ridden, emotionally shaken from the confrontation with her family and dealing with a lot of high-level magics she's never even cast before. She's bound to make mistakes.

[Charles Phipps]

Too bad it came at the cost of whatever brainpower he had left, whatever luck he had left, his relationship with his family, and probably his soul.

Those are called the consequences of unearned power. V didn't EARN his power and thus he didn't know how to use it properly. It's like the Lottery Winner business. V isn't able to do good Epic Level Magic because he has never been Epic before.

[Prak]

I love this comic.:smallbiggrin:



Xykon has been crafting magic items for weeks on end now, there's sure to be some obscure ring or something that neutralizes rays.

conceivably he could have an item that grants him use of the feats Deflect Arrows, Improved Unarmed Strike and Exceptional Deflection.

[malakim2099]

I'm an adult male, but I want a Xykon Plushie. I don't care.

As the proud owner of several Cthulhu plushes, I second this. :smallbiggrin:

(Hint: GENCON Giant! GENCON!!!)

I think this demonstrates the flaw with Soul Splices (and really, multi-caster schticks like Tsukiko's mystic theurge). You still can only cast one spell + one quickened spell per turn.

[Lord Seth]

Is V on the Moral Event Horizon page for the whole Familicide thing? If not, I think an edit is due.Uh...I don't really see how Familicide is a Moral Event Horizon. Maybe a Wall Banger because of the sheer ludicrousness of the fact you can instantly kill 50+ enemies the world over and bypass all saves to do so, but certainly not a Moral Event Horizon.

For a Moral Event Horizon, V would have to kill one of the main characters at least (and probably do some gloating about it), not killing some no-name dragons that we've never seen before.

[NakedCelt]

Rocks don't seem to be that heavy in the D&D multiverse. Check out the Monster Manual entry for giants, under "Rock Throwing": a Medium rock, the size of a human, weighs 60–80 pounds.

[Arkenputtyknife]

Except we're not IN a mediaeval castle--we're in Xykon's tower, which, if you look back at the recent pictures of Azure City, is a weird organic-looking building. I don't think it's made of stone...chitin, maybe, or some other very light but strong material. Also, Xykon may well think he doesn't need to worry too much about siege engines considering Azure City seems to be fairly isolated...they chose it as the first target because they didn't have to conquer several other kingdoms in order to reach it!

Arguments and speculations based on “this isn't the real world so real-world logic and facts don't apply” really don't do much to convince me in the absence of decent evidence. In D&D, like most games, real-world physics are the default until the DM or the game rules (or in this case, the Giant's wonderfully twisted mind) specifically override them. Even there, the game rules are nearly always an attempt at approximating real-world physics (or in some cases, movie or fantasy physics, which are real-world physics with brain damage) in a manner that's practical for gamers, except for things where physics has nothing to tell us (i.e. magic). Anything else makes the game impossibly difficult to run, or the story a waste of time to read.

I could have rabbited on about ‘structural integrity spells’ and similar Star Trek-ish waffle, but I didn't want to. I wanted to illustrate that the idea that the lump of whatever-it-is must be thin because it's part of a wall simply does not follow. How thick it is in this case—well, look at the comic and see for yourself. That's evidence.

Factotum suggests a “light but strong material”, but isn't it a point of the comic that the chunk appears to be very heavy, and has the impact of something that is very heavy? V appears to agree that it is, in fact, quite heavy. The chunk certainly looks like stone, despite the exotic nature of the tower as a whole. I would suggest that it is meant to be made of what it appears to be made of until proven otherwise.

The comment about not worrying about siege engines is due to isolation is very unconvincing. If you know where your foe is located, and you need to take that foe out, then that is where you send your army, if you can. It really doesn't matter if it's an isolated location. In any case, the tower isn't isolated; it's the motte of a large motte-and-bailey (not the strongest military structure ever conceived) sea port. If Xykon and/or Redcloak are not considering siege, they're both idiots. Which, I think we have seen, is not the case.

[Lamech]

Negative levels don't remove caster levels. All they do with regard to spellcasting is remove one highest level spell.

So Jephthon & Ganonron were still epic level mages, they've just lost a few of their highest spells, but they should have had plenty more available.
That is wierd. See the description of enervation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/enervation.htm).

effective level (for determining the power, duration, DC, and other details of spells or special abilities).

While under negative levels we see this...

-1 effective level (whenever the creature’s level is used in a die roll or calculation, reduce it by one for each negative level).
They don't techinically conflict... so I would interpert as effective level taking away from your class level. Perhaps the giant did too or assumed it was a special ablity of the enervation type spells.


On X hitting a 59 DC
Lets assume 10 for starting int. +3 age +2 Lich +5 tomb +6 Magic headband. So +8 total +3 Spell focus +2 Synregy from those ranks in arcane knowledge. Epic spellcaster rod is a +10 Spellcraft. Luckstone +1. 24 ranks in spellcraft. Total +48 take ten is 58. He is one short. I'm sure he can find something to get him through this. An intelligent item making aid another, a extra die, one less on his check, ect. ect. ect.

[Yendor]

I think the size of the rock is just artistic license. If you got hit with, say, a cubic foot of stone you'd get messed up pretty bad, but it would look kind of lame in the strip. It's not as if the characters are normally proportioned.

[FoE]

Didn't Xykon raise his tower out of the ground with dark magic? I'm going to say that he could lift that huge slab of rock because it was a construct of his will and therefore he had absolute control over it.

Or maybe he had an appropriate magic item that gave him super-strength.

Or maybe he's really strong for a lich.

Or maybe this is a fairly insignificant background detail and I'm not going to obsess over it.

[Yendor]

Or maybe this is a fairly insignificant background detail and I'm not going to obsess over it.

What?! What kind of forum poster are you, anyway? :smallwink:

[derfenrirwolv]

After all, you can't beat the moral(s) of: "don't hold onto the idiot ball" and "big bad can't be beaten mid-season" along with "always tip the author" into the skull of a protagonist if they're dead now can you? ;)

I'm pretty sure with a rock that big xykon can beat pretty much anything he wants into V's head.

It looks like Xykon cast epic dispel, then used a move action to pick up his "weapon" . V didn't concentrate to avoid the attack of opportunity (since he literally can't concentrate out of a tanglefoot bag and its a HIGH level spell) and Xykon bashed him with an AoO.

[The MunchKING]

. V didn't concentrate to avoid the attack of opportunity (since he literally can't concentrate out of a tanglefoot bag and its a HIGH level spell)

I'm sure the rain helped.

[Mentok]

By the rules, you can have a +30 skill bonus item before hitting the epic barrier in terms of cost. With maximum ranks in Spellcraft, that DC 59 is met with ease, especially if he has any feats towards said goal.

Personally, I'm expecting Xykon to be level 21 or 24. The ease of Sudden Metamagic feats is just too easy to ignore.

[Mentok]

By the way, Xykon is definitely hurting. That empowered sunburst (although he did make the save), the crushing hand, and the backlash all add up to an average of 120 damage.

I wonder if he turned into a lich while on desecrated ground, because otherwise, he's dangerously hurt (only 40 more damage should dust him).

[Kaytara]

I don't see how wanting V to fail and be redeemed is objectionable. I think you misunderstand the rational behind it. V doesn't deserve to be punished because she's powerful, she deserves to be punished because she's evil. Debate the technicalities of V's actions all you want, but Inkyrius, Haley, Belkar, and Tsukiko all immediately recognized V was completely evil.
Recognized V as completely evil? Haley, Belkar and Tsukiko have NO IDEA what Vaarsuvius has done AT ALL. Tsukiko doesn't even know him. They're judging by his outfit, which was a direct, involuntary effect of the Soul Splice and is over now, by the way.
As for Inkyrius, she actually got to SEE something evil V has done, yes, and the fiends seem to deem it evil as well. That still does not mean that it is clear cut because V believes he is making a pre-emptive strike against a kind of enemy with whom he's had nothing but the most terrible dealings and teaching the dragon a lesson. If a criminal almost managed to rape your daughter, you stopped him in the last moment and were immediately given access to a button that would instantly kill a huge number of rapists everywhere, can you honestly say you wouldn't at least consider it in the heat of the moment?


The power has corrupted her, in a way, caused her to drop the pretense of courtesy and respect she gave other people,
She was that way before the Splice, pretty much the entire time she's been on the boat.
and eroded her delusion that she acted out of goodness and not lust for power.
I don't see that. Instead, I see a character who is still trying to come up with a justification for every step. "The Familicide is self-defence!" "Xykon is a problem, I intend to address it!" V may be just rationalizing here, but whether he acknowledges it is an entirely different matter.

[Dr. Cthulwho]

Woo, another great strip. Feels like a fitting conclusion to the duel, now just to see if the MitD and O'Chul are going to get to do something.

Oh, and what will happen to V. I'm betting on his survival somehow, most likely through the IFCC's intervention - they'll grab him, or if he dies they'll raise him for later possession. A dead V is clearly of no use to their long term goals.

And I never get tired of Team Evil. Love Xykon's dialogue and how his reasoning works (he gets all the best lines), Redcloak is great, and I'm really fond of Tsukiko (love how her slippers match he eyes. Plus a Xykon plushie? You are awesome Tsukiko). Though I wonder what kind of XP they get for taking down two-splice V?


As the proud owner of several Cthulhu plushes, I second this.:smallbiggrin:

(Hint: GENCON Giant! GENCON!!!)

Thirded. :smallsmile:


That's if V didn't already die from the rock to the head.

V survived an Ancient Black Dragon smacking her into a mountain/large hill/rocky outcrop. She should survive the rock to the head. Plus, no Xs.


What ticked me off was how a number of posters started rejoicing over V's failures once he gained power...

I don't mind characters gaining power in stories, or powerful characters in general. In fact it can be rewarding, especially if the character deserves it, and/or earns it.

I also don't mind characters who get/have such power getting taken down a peg or two if they deserve it and/or earn it. V has a lot to learn it seems, and with pride and magical superiority apparently written so deeply into the character it seems inevitable that she is going to be tested.


If that's the case, people should have rejoiced when Belkar got hit with the MOJ.

I did. It was a good piece of story telling, entirely justified and useful in character development for Belkar, who could easily be written as one-dimensional with lots of good lines.


Is anyone else disturbed that Xycon put more foresight into his strategy, fire immunity?!, than V?

Not so much. With time on his hands it seems pretty Xykon-ish to think "Heh, wouldn't it be cool to see the look on their faces when I cast Still Meteor Swarm and I'm totally unharmed"


V might still surprise everyone by turning into a great green wyrm and filling up the room with acid gas. Heck, I'd even allow her a surprise round for it. After all, she isn't the only superarrogant character around the place.

Maybe, but I don't think so. The IFCC said that when the splice ends so do any ongoing spells cast during the splice.

[Forbiddenwar]

In Defense of Darwinism: Intellegance has little to do with Darwinism. If an organism survives long enough to reproduce, the the organisms traits survive, whether those traits are intellegence, strength, adaptability, etc.
V has 2 children, so V wins the darwinism test.

Wall weight: a 5th level spell, telekinesis, allows X to lift and push a wall equal to 25 lbs per caster level. Now there is some debate to X level, but if we set it to 30 that means V just got 750 lbs slammed on her.
This has been mentioned in other threads/posts.
Other option: We don't see X lifting anything, he could have just tapped the wall and guided into position similar to Haley in 470. This way the wall could have weighed ANYTHING.

Still trying to figure out the init order on the last two panels. Getting up from prone would have proved an attack of oppertunity. Casting a spell also provokes an attack of oppertunity, which interupts the spell if successful and caster fails concentration. so perhaps X was acting on the oppertunity, casting telekinesis or just knocking over the wall. Hey, did I just solve the init problem?

All in all an excellent strip. You have to remember the right spell is no good if the Character doesn't think of it and have it Right now.

I too will have to purchase every oots doll every made MAKE THEM NOW! Though I wonder which one would out sell the others. I'm thinking Haley.

[Porthos]

If that's the case, people should have rejoiced when Belkar got hit with the MOJ.

Errr.... Many people did. :smallconfused:

In fact, the overwhelming majority of people who posted celebrated the MOJ going off. :smallconfused:

So... Err... Not quite sure what you're saying here. :smallsmile:


3) Don't count V out yet. The shapechange might still be active.

Nope. The IFCC was quite clear that any ongoing spells that were active when the Soul Splice went away would also go away. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html) Therefore the Shapechange spell is kaput. I'm afraid.

[factotum]

This brings me to another thought. V never used any of Jephthon's Archmage abilities. Most of them, such as Mastery of Counterspelling (deflect that Energy Drain!), Mastery of Elements (immune to cold, electricity and fire? Eat Acid!), would have been very useful in this fight.


You're making an assumption that Jephton has Archmage levels, but don't forget that Miko was called a Samurai even though she had no levels in that class--for all we know, Archmage could be a similar honorific that means nothing about what classes Jephton has.

[The MunchKING]

In Defense of Darwinism: Intellegance has little to do with Darwinism. If an organism survives long enough to reproduce, the the organisms traits survive, whether those traits are intellegence, strength, adaptability, etc.
V has 2 children, so V wins the darwinism test.


Whcih she ADOPTED. :smalltongue:

[Hawgh]

Is....is that a Xykon plushie?

[Fishman]

Recognized V as completely evil? Haley, Belkar and Tsukiko have NO IDEA what Vaarsuvius has done AT ALL. Tsukiko doesn't even know him. They're judging by his outfit, which was a direct, involuntary effect of the Soul Splice and is over now, by the way.Yes, but it's a trope in the world of RPGs: Dressing like evil means you are evil.


If a criminal almost managed to rape your daughter, you stopped him in the last moment and were immediately given access to a button that would instantly kill a huge number of rapists everywhere, can you honestly say you wouldn't at least consider it in the heat of the moment?I'm probably bad example, but no, not really. It seems like a simple no-brainer to me. There's no such thing as an "innocent rapist", that is a patently absurd notion. Of course, I openly profess being "non-good" and see "goodness" as a fundamentally self-destructive philosophy, so at minimum I am neutral, and most likely evil. Somehow, I don't see myself as ever being a paladin.


I don't see that. Instead, I see a character who is still trying to come up with a justification for every step. "The Familicide is self-defence!" "Xykon is a problem, I intend to address it!" V may be just rationalizing here, but whether he acknowledges it is an entirely different matter.Most people rationalize. Even those who we clearly believe to be evil have some reason why they believe what they are doing is good. Indeed, rationalized evil is the most dangerous evil: It can convert the otherwise non-evil into followers. Consider: If I murder old ladies in the street for the lulz, this is not exactly a philosophy that will convert people to my cause. If, on the other hand, I advocate that old ladies are EVIL and their extermination is right and just, for the benefit of society, I might be able to get converts. Given the right conditions, such a belief may even take up being popular mainstream...and things like this have happened before. Beat someone to death in the street for no reason, and you are simply a psychopath. Beat someone to death inthe street because they are the oppressors of honest You-istanis, and you may have a political movement.

[dvdjrkns]

I've been reading OOTS comics for a couple years now, off and on. I've never said anything on the forums, always been a lurker; but I have to ask...what the heck happened to V? He/she dropped the ball big time. I figured he was going to lose, but he didn't even seem to try much, in my humble opinion.