Test of Spite Exhibition: Moonlitdreams vs. PhoenixRivers

[Moonlitdreams]

I can deal with 3 rounds of buffs. I'm open to suggestions on the map.

Columns 2? That would be this one, if you agree:

Columns II:

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[PhoenixRivers]

Works for me.

[Moonlitdreams]

Okay then.

Buffs:

All day buffs:
Chain of Eyes cast on lead Battletitan.
Apply Oil of Magic vestment +5.
Greater Dispel Magic cast from scroll into Ring of Counterspells.
Motivate Charisma aura.
Greater Resistance cast.
Contingency: (Resilient Sphere centered on me "when my Cube of Force is destroyed or runs out of charges")

Round 1: Drink Potion of Shield of faith +5
Round 2: Cast Shield, Presses the "Keeps out all things" face of the Cube of Force.
Round 3: Cast Mass Fly, centered on her so the Battletitans are included in the radius of the effect.



Initiative (counting Nerveskitter): [roll0]
[roll1]

Rolled twice and taking best due to the Danger Sense feat.

And if you have no problem with it, I'll take the bottom for starting position.


Starting at F24. Lead Battletitan (BT 1, henceforth) at E22-G23. BT 2 at A24-C25. BT 3 at H24-J25.

[Claudius Maximus]

Moonlitdreams:
When you bring several minions into matches with a character, it is generally expected that you announce yourself as a minionmancer build. You should tell Phoenix you're using minions with this character, as there's a chance he might not be as interested in fighting a minionmancer.

In your defense, this is more of an unwritten rule, so I can easily see you not being aware of it. I'll see about making it more visible in the future.

Keep in mind that Battletitans are huge, and thus must squeeze to get around in 10 foot spaces. Remember to apply the approriate penalties for squeezing. Also, I'm curious as to how you have Battetitans under your control.

[Moonlitdreams]

Oh, I see... Claudius has brought to my attention that I was unaware of an unwritten rule, so I will now make you aware of it: This is a minionmancer build. If you are no longer interested in fighting, I will understand.

Claudius:

I did indeed not know, thank you for telling me.

I will make a note on my character sheet about the squeezing rules, but it shouldn't make much difference.

As for how I have Battletitans under control... see below.

Total Handle Animal score: 37 (7ranks +6cha, +6 charisma aura, +7 item, +2kit, +2 animal affinity, +3focus, +2 animal domain affiliate, +1trait, +1flexible), with an additional +4 against Dinosaurs.

Taking 10 with Handle Animal (or merely rolling average) allows me to reliably rear up to 36 HD animals, three at a time. The Battletitan is precisely 36 HD. They are trained for combat, and can be ordered to move and attack (free action, because it's speaking) with Handle Animal checks that I autopass.

[Claudius Maximus]

Moonlitdreams:
But where are you getting the Battletitans? You have to pay for animals that aren't class features, and MMIII has Battletitans at "often more than 100000 gp."

And could you elaborate on that "flexible" bonus? It's the only bonus I don't recognize.

[Moonlitdreams]

Claudius:

Well the DC was for rear Wild Animal... so I assumed that I did not have to pay for it. I suppose I shouldn't assume. :smallsigh:

Flexible Mind feat, provides a +1 to two in-class skills and gives a continuous chaotic aura. Actually unnecessary, because I could have taken another rank in handle animal instead, but I had nothing better in mind at the moment for that feat slot.

[PhoenixRivers]

I'm cool with that. I made a couple modifications to my character, for kicks. mostly gear, but I did swap out a feat.

@Claudius:To verify, via transparency, it's legal to put a power into a Craft Contingent Spell (as it qualifies as a magic item, being created by an item creation feat), correct?

Relevant Rule:
Psionics-Magic Transparency

Though not explicitly called out in the spell descriptions or magic item descriptions, spells, spell-like abilities, and magic items that could potentially affect psionics do affect psionics.

[Moonlitdreams]

Alright. I need to fix something about my character really quick, you can go ahead and post buffs and such.

[Claudius Maximus]

Phoenix:
I think not, because feats are not affected by transparency, and it could be argued that crafting a magic item that contains a power would not be "affecting" the power. At any rate, I would say you could no more do this than you could craft a Scroll of a power.

You can make Psionic Tattoos contingent by adding an Inducer, as described here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20031225a), which might accomplish what you're going for. It's actually cheaper for higher level effects.

[PhoenixRivers]

It'll be just a second before I'm ready to post buffs and such. I've gotta make a couple adjustments for legality's sake.

[PhoenixRivers]

Buffs:All day:
GMW on Chain and spikes
Shift Spikes Spellstrike bonus to Saves

Round 1: Twiddle thumbs
Round 2: Activate Tattoo of Touchsight, Enter Thicket of blades stance
Round 3: Activate Tattoo of Expansion, Triggering Contingent Extended Divine Agility, Activate Animal Devotion (Strength)

Initiative:[roll0]

Starting Location: E2-G4, after expansion to Huge Size (Colossal for grappling purposes)

[Moonlitdreams]

Very sorry for the wait, I have been out of town and unavailable. My turn will be up soon.

Claudius:


MMIII has Battletitans at "often more than 100000 gp."

My reading of this was that if the Battletitans were already trained and domesticated, they went for that price. To use a Rear a Wild Animal DC on them, they would have to not be already trained, thus, I was assuming that price would not apply. Would there be a different price that the ToS would give them in this case, or what? They are rather important to this build, so I would like to figure out a way to afford them.

[Claudius Maximus]

Moonlitdreams:
At a generous estimate, the cost to train the animal will be something like 17280 gp. This includes doubling the price every time I see an "often more" when calculating training prices. Since you're training it yourself, you can get one for 82720 gp.

[Moonlitdreams]

Claudius:

Alright, then I just have one Battletitan, rather than three. That still works. I will edit my buffs accordingly.


Round actions:

I double move to F12, flying just above the columns.

Battletitan flies in front of me to E7-G9 (going over to the columns with its flight), looking for his opponent the whole way, and stopping if he sees the opponent before he reaches his destination.

Methods of vision: Low-light vision, scent, true seeing, Chain of Eyes connected to me.
Spot check: [roll0]


Phoenix, are you visible anywhere on the map except for behind the columns on the first two and last two rows? My current methods of vision are low-light vision, scent and true seeing.

My turn may not be over.

[PhoenixRivers]

I occupy E2-G4 (15x15 facing). I have touchsight, to a range of 80 feet (source here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/touchsight.htm)).

I'm wielding a spiked chain.
Please inform me of what I detect, at the point LoE is established.

OO: Maneuvers Readied: [roll0] - White Raven Tactics
[roll1] - War Leader's Charge

[Moonlitdreams]

Let's see... at the point that LoE is established, you "see" a huge reptilian beast flying swiftly toward you. It's current position is just above the columns at E10-G12. If you do not have any immediate actions, I will continue my turn.

[PhoenixRivers]

They're not Immediate actions. However, if the reptilian is capable of spellcasting, it should know that it's well within the range I threaten, and cannot cast defensively.

If it's in any way intelligent, it will also see that the movement of my spiked chain is forming practically a Thicket of Blades.

[Moonlitdreams]

Nice. Well, the beast halts its movement, and that is the end of my turn.


Battletitan takes a Total Defense.

[PhoenixRivers]

Full Attack the beast.

Attack: [roll0]
If Hit: [roll1]
If Threat: [roll2]
If Crit: [roll3]

Attack: [roll4]
If Hit: [roll5]
If Threat: [roll6]
If Crit: [roll7]

Attack: [roll8]
If Hit: [roll9]
If Threat: [roll10]
If Crit: [roll11]

Attack: [roll12]
If Hit: [roll13]
If Threat: [roll14]
If Crit: [roll15]

Each of these attacks ignores all magical miss chances.
Each of these attacks ignores the first 20% of nonmagical miss chances.

If any of these attacks hit, the creature must make a DC 31 Reflex Save.

In addition, for each of these attacks that hits, the beast must make a DC 23 Fortitude Save.

EDIT: Add +2 to all attack rolls.

[PhoenixRivers]

As a swift action, I activate White Raven Tactics on myself.

Another Full Attack:

Attack: [roll0]
If Hit: [roll1]
If Threat: [roll2]
If Crit: [roll3]

Attack: [roll4]
If Hit: [roll5]
If Threat: [roll6]
If Crit: [roll7]

Attack: [roll8] ***Critical Threat***
If Hit: [roll9]
If Threat: [roll10]
If Crit: [roll11]

Attack: [roll12]
If Hit: [roll13]
If Threat: [roll14]
If Crit: [roll15]

Each of these attacks ignores all magical miss chances.
Each of these attacks ignores the first 20% of nonmagical miss chances.

If any of these attacks hit, the creature must make a DC 31 Reflex Save*.
(if it has already rolled this save this round, it does not need to)

In addition, for each of these attacks that hits, the beast must make a DC 23 Fortitude Save.

OO:Maneuvers Gained
[roll16] - Foehammer
[roll17] (WRT Round) - Covering Strike

Possibly not done: Awaiting Results.

EDIT: Add +2 to all attack rolls.

[Moonlitdreams]

With those extra +2, the critical threat hits, but nothing else does. The beast roars and shakes his powerful head, as if to shake away the stars from the impact.

DC 31 Reflex Save: [roll0]
DC 23 Fortitude Save: [roll1]

Add +2 to each save, or +4 if the effect is fear or despair.

Edit: Go ahead and proceed with your other actions.

[PhoenixRivers]

The critical threat hits regardless. It was a natural 20.

[Moonlitdreams]

Okay, well go ahead with anything else.

[PhoenixRivers]

Swift action: Belt of Battle (full round action)

Full Attack 3:

Attack: [roll0]
If Hit: [roll1]
If Threat: [roll2]
If Crit: [roll3]

Attack: [roll4]
If Hit: [roll5]
If Threat: [roll6]
If Crit: [roll7]

Attack: [roll8] ***Critical Threat, Nat 20***
If Hit: [roll9]
If Threat: [roll10]
If Crit: [roll11]

Attack: [roll12]
If Hit: [roll13]
If Threat: [roll14]
If Crit: [roll15]

Each of these attacks ignores all magical miss chances.
Each of these attacks ignores the first 20% of nonmagical miss chances.

In addition, for each of these attacks that hits, the beast must make a DC 23 Fortitude Save.

These effects are not fear based, nor are they based on any magical effect.

[Moonlitdreams]

Crit threat and first attack hit, but the crit does not confirm.

DC 23 Fortitude Save: [roll0]
DC 23 Fortitude Save: [roll1]

Are you finished with your turn?

[PhoenixRivers]

Well, 3 full attacks is the action cap, so yes.

[Moonlitdreams]

Battletitan comes out of Total Defense, flies to E6-G8 and attacks. From behind the column at F11, I cast Mass Snake's Swiftness to grant myself and the BT another attack.


The beast flies forward to E6-G8 and attacks (yes I know I provoke an AoO).

Bite Attack: [roll0]
Damage: [roll1]
If Threat: [roll2]
If Crit: [roll3]

Bite Attack: [roll4]
Damage: [roll5]
If Threat: [roll6]
If Crit: [roll7]

Grapple check (no AoOs from this): [roll8]

If you are evil, make 3 DC 14 Fortitude saves.
Also, what size are you? More to come based on your AoO and reaction to this attack.

[PhoenixRivers]

Movement AoO:

Attack: [roll0]
If Hit, make a reflex Save, DC: [roll1] or be forced to stop.

If this hits, make a DC 23 Fort save.

[PhoenixRivers]

The bites hit, but deals no damage. The grapple automatically fails.

OO:Induced Timeless Body is triggered. I become immune to all attacks and powers for 1 round.

EDIT: My size category is Huge, though I receive various modifiers to size for certain actions.

[Moonlitdreams]

Attack does not hit.

[PhoenixRivers]

I'm aware, it was a nat 1.

That said, your bites hit, but deal no damage. Your grapple fails. I am not evil.

I am huge size. Different modifers to my size may apply to some of my actions.

EDIT: this is a repost, the last post on the previous page has the reason these things fail (spoilered for observers only).

[Moonlitdreams]

I Dimension Door to E3.
The Battletitan goes Total Defense as it retreats to E11-G13, dropping down behind the columns.


You see the beast retreat to behind the columns at the 10th row, and then you cannot see him behind the columns. End turn.

Edit: And out of curiosity, may I look in that spoiler after the match is over? I am curious as to what effect stopped those bites in their tracks.

[PhoenixRivers]

So, the beast moved towards me, made 2 natural attacks with the same weapon, then moved away.

Does this violate the action restrictions on non PC's?

EDIT: After the match is over, all spoilers are legal to read.

EDIT2: Does this second movement count as part of the first? If not, I get an AoO.

Also, could you plot out the exact movement path for this turn for me? At least the parts I saw?

[Moonlitdreams]

He began his movement at E6-G8, flying straight backwards to E11-G13, which is the last place you see him before he drops behind the columns.

I do not believe this violates any action restrictions.

Oh, and yes, you get an AoO. But regardless, my turn is over.

[PhoenixRivers]

AoO (when you are 25 feet away):

Touch attack, as it moves: [roll0]
If Hit, opposed Grapple: [roll1]

For this grapple, the beast is considered 3 size categories smaller than normal. That should impose a -12 penalty to the check.

Welcome to my character concept.

[PhoenixRivers]

If grapple hits: [roll0]damage, and we're grappling.

[Moonlitdreams]

Hm, well that touch attack would hit, but you see a halfling emerge from behind the columns at E2, and that figure speaks a word and you need to roll two Will saves before you can do anything else (immediate action).

The DCs are 21 and 22.

[PhoenixRivers]

First: Is the movement an immediate effect? Second, is the effect or movement one that will provoke an AoO?

Third, I am in E2-G4. are you sure you're in my square?

[Moonlitdreams]

1st: Yes.
2nd: Yes, if you still count 5-foot steps as AoO worthy.
3rd: Ah, nevermind, I meant B2.

But here is a description of the halfling, if you want it:
You see an aged female halfling all but covered in an over-sized cloak. She stands tall, and what you can see of her skin is bronzed. Her presence is terrifying and impressive even without the metals of honor that adorn her cloak and the magical auras that are practically palpable in the shimmering air around her.

[PhoenixRivers]

Thicket of blades. I do (consider all movement as AoO-worthy).

Immediate action: Suppress all forms of Freedom of Movement or similar effects on you. There is no save or SR to this effect.

AoO:
touch attack: [roll0]
If hit, grapple check: [roll1]

You are considered 3 size categories smaller than usual for this (so if you're small, you're considered fine). If this hits, we're grappling, and you take:
[roll2] damage.

After that:
Will: [roll3]
Will: [roll4]

EDIT: Note: this will render me unable to attack the dino. I'm cool with that.

EDIT2: (if it makes you feel any better, there's a 99% chance those will effects wouldn't do anything to me on a failed save)

[Claudius Maximus]

Moonlitdreams:
How is the Battletitan moving away from Phoenix after making its attacks? You have not supplied a source of extra actions.

Similarly, how is the halfling popping out on Phoenix's turn and what effect(s) is she creating?

In addition to these things, it seems like you're treating the columns as something other than floor-to-ceiling here. I did not see Phoenix assent to any changes to the original map, which is generally assumed to have a 30-foot ceiling and floor-to-ceiling columns. If you wished to change it, you should have openly proposed your changes for his approval. If you actually did that, and I'm just blind, please show me where. At any rate, how high are you treating the columns and the ceiling?

You have yourself moving to F-12, above the column here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8082310&postcount=15), but you seem to be in F-11 on ground level here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8083368&postcount=28). You did not specify any movement between these two points, so how are you getting from F12 to F11? Also, I believe Phoenix would have seen you when you moved to F12.

[Moonlitdreams]

Claudius:
First of all, the Battletitan's extra action comes from the casting of Mass Snake's Swiftness (back on the first page, I believe).

The halfling is popping out via Celerity>5-foot step and Halt (immediate action). Halt is one of the effects she is creating, and the other comes from her feat Daunting Presence, which forces a Will save or becoming shaken upon seeing her.


I did not see Phoenix assent to any changes to the original map, which is generally assumed to have a 30-foot ceiling and floor-to-ceiling columns.
That is not the impression that I got from the matches that I have observed, quite frankly. I have seen 20 foot columns and 30 foot ceiling, if I recall. I will ask Phoenix now just to be sure he is okay with this.

The last is simply a case of me typing wrong. I meant F11, but accidentally typed F12. My goal was to stay out of his sight until it was necessary to intervene.


Are you okay with 20 foot columns and a 30 foot ceiling. by the way? I made the mistake of not asking you earlier, and it has somewhat influenced my tactics.

As to your attack, you see a cube of air around the halfling shimmer brightly as your attack is deflected. And now I believe it is your turn.


Cube of Force holds firm against this attack.

[PhoenixRivers]

I am ok, but, as your critter occupies a 15x15, please note that he is squeezing to move between them. That means double movement cost, no charging through, all that good stuff.

Further, as I am using an unarmed strike for the touch attack, I'll need more information on the "deflected".

@Claudius:I've not noticed him have any Observers only spoilers, which means he can't have an itemized list of his turn. If possible, I'd appreciate if you could get him to give you an action by action of his turn. I don't care if it's PM'd or spoilered, as long as the actions are verified to be legit.

Please also verify the "cube of air" that's deflecting my attack doesn't block LoE for the effects he's trying to generate on me.

In the event that everything above is legit, and I fail to affect you, then I can attack your critter, in which case, I'll need an opposed grapple check from it. The only reason I would have been unable to grapple the creature is that I would have been grappling you. If that is negated, then my AoO on the critter can go off normally. Remember the -12 penalty for my ability to treat it as 3 size categories smaller.

Please resolve the grapple check, then my turn can begin.

[Moonlitdreams]

About the squeezing, yes, I realize that.

More information... besides the fact that I am impervious to basic attacks and more with the "cube of air" around me... oh, and also that your unarmed strike is blocked by a (for lack of better word) wall of force. I think you can try a Spellcraft check to see if you can recognize what the effect is. DC 20.

If you pass:

You see that I have a currently active Cube of Force (as in the item) around me.


Opposed grapple check: [roll0]

[Claudius Maximus]

Moonlitdreams:
E2 is 15 away from B2. How are you 5-stepping that far? Regardless, you cast Dimension Door on your turn, which means you can take no actions until your next turn comes up. This includes immediate actions, so you could not have cast Celerity.

The extra attack was not the problem with the Battletitan's turn. Rather, why is it able to move twice? As I see it, your turn went like this:

Battletitan moves and attacks.
You cast Mass Snake's Swiftness, causing it to attack again.
Battletitan moves again, for no reason I can determine.
You cast Dimension Door. Was this a quickened spell, or otherwise able to have been cast in the same turn as your Mass Snake's Swiftness?

I've also noted several other issues. How can you afford both a Cube of Force and a Battletitan? How can you move 50-60 feet with a double move when your speed is limited to 10 feet by the cube? How are you casting effects through a Wall of Force?

Also, Daunting Presence takes a standard action to activate, unless it's been reprinted without my knowledge. What's the source of your version?

[PhoenixRivers]

Assuming the ability is a Wall of Force, or is based on it, the following text would apply:
Breath weapons and spells cannot pass through the wall in either direction, although dimension door, teleport, and similar effects can bypass the barrier. It blocks ethereal creatures as well as material ones (though ethereal creatures can usually get around the wall by floating under or over it through material floors and ceilings). Gaze attacks can operate through a wall of force.

Assuming one of the saves is a gaze effect, that'd be ok. However, if the other is a spell, or spell-like ability, it should not function through any effect based on a wall of force, without explicit text allowing the passage of spells.

Regardless, Spellcraft check:[roll0]

[PhoenixRivers]

Provided everything above is resolved, my turn:

Grapple checks to pin, then to damage (I will attempt to pin repeatedly until successful. Once Pinning, remaining checks will be for damage)

Grapple to Pin: [roll0]

Grapple to Pin/Damage: [roll1]
(If Damage: [roll2] Damage on successful strike)

Grapple to pin/damage: [roll3]
(If Damage: [roll4] Damage on successful strike)

Grapple to Pin/Damage: [roll5]
(If Damage: [roll6] Damage on successful strike)

The first successful damaging will force a DC 31 Reflex Save.

[Moonlitdreams]

Claudius:

All of this is revealing to me that I really do not know the rules as well as I should to participate in the ToS, and I don't want you to have to babysit me just because you are the DM. I did not realize many of these things, and my build was built around being able to train the Battletitans without cost. Thus, I do not believe what remains of it is very workable.

I will go back and have the halfling stay in B3, as well as the beast not trying to move, since that has been causing the problems that I cannot see a way around. Please inform Phoenix of this, or ask me to, if this solution is acceptable. If not, I have to forfeit this match until I remake the character.

[Claudius Maximus]

Moonlitdreams:
We've built up quite a few unwritten rules, yeah, which is obviously not very friendly to newcomers. I'll see about setting them down explicitly to prevent these kinds of mixups, as soon as I have the time. As for the "babysitting" issue, I signed up for this position knowing I'd have to do a bit of monitoring, so it's no problem at all. You're welcome to participate in the Test of Spite.

The match can continue if there's a way to change everything without completely upheaving the previous actions, and fortunately it appears that might be possible. I assume you no longer have a Cube of Force, since you're keeping the Battletitan, which would solve your movement issues.

If Phoenix is still willing to continue with the changes I propose, the battle will continue from here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8094912&postcount=33). The Battletitan will remain in E6-G8. If you can quicken Dimension Door or otherwise cast it in the same round as you cast Mass Snake's Swiftness, you can end in B3. If you can not, you remain in F11, though you still have a move action, and you can cast Celerity since you did not use Dimension Door. If the latter situation is true, tell me what else, if anything, you're doing for that turn.

PhoenixRivers:
Due to a few errors, we'll have to rewind the match a bit. The lizard you're fighting does not move again, ending its turn in E6-G8. Some other changes may be made depending on what Moonlitdreams does on his last turn, which I am letting him redo partially. I will tell you what you see of it when I know what he's trying to do. Everything after post #33 is likely to be rendered invalid, since a lot of it was predicated on the very things we're changing now. Are you still willing to continue in light of these things?

[PhoenixRivers]

Hey, I'm just wanting to play a match. Rewinding to invalidate everything after post 33 is fine. Pass on visible effects to me, and I'll pick up my next turn from there.

[Moonlitdreams]

Claudius:

Thank you for your understanding, and I will keep an eye out for any more unwritten rules I see around in the future. I will not purchase the Cube of Force in light of the cost of the Battletitan, and just try to reread rules or ask the DMs in advice before I make a build around something that could be controversial. :smallredface:


My modified match buffs, based on these things (for my reference as well as yours):
All day buffs:
Chain of Eyes cast on Battletitan.
Apply Oil of Magic vestment +5.
Greater Dispel Magic cast from scroll into Ring of Counterspells.
Motivate Charisma aura.
Greater Resistance cast.
Contingency: (Resilient Sphere centered on me "when I am attacked")

Round 1: Drink Potion of Shield of faith +5
Round 2: Cast Shield
Round 3: Cast Mass Fly, centered on her so the Battletitan is included in the radius of the effect.



Round actions:

Staying in F11, I cast Celerity, then cast Greater Blink on the Battletitan. I would have no issue with LoS as I see it, because I share its eyes (Chain of Eyes).
Battletitan ends its turn in E6-G8, readying an action to blink away from any physical attack.


Thanks for your flexibility. I'm pretty sure you do not see anything except for the lizard-beast stopping in E6-G8. My turn has ended.

[Claudius Maximus]

Moonlitdreams:
Your revised list of buffs is acceptable.


Staying in F11, I cast Celerity, then cast Greater Blink on the Battletitan. I would have no issue with LoS as I see it, because I share its eyes (Chain of Eyes).
Battletitan ends its turn in E6-G8, readying an action to blink away from any physical attack.

Few problems with this. You do see the Battletitan, but you lack LoE to it due to the columns. You can not target it with most spells, since a spell generally needs LoE to its target (Greater Snake's Swiftness is a burst that you could have thrown around the corner, which is what I assumed you did when you cast it). Also, Greater Blink is a Personal range spell, so casting it on the Battletitan is impossible unless you have a means around that as well.

I don't see how the Battletitan could ready an action to evade, in any case. If I'm not mistaken it has already taken a standard and a move action in this round.

[Moonlitdreams]

Claudius:

You are right, of course. I had forgotten that Blink was a Personal range spell. So no Greater Blink. I will not cast Celerity and everything that follows that, then.


My turn has ended.

[Claudius Maximus]

Moonlitdreams:
Your turn is fine then.

PhoenixRivers:
Due to the changes made, you do not see the halfling at all. The lizard remians in E6-G8.

Make a listen check, DC 18. If Successful:
You hear a voice, but can not make out what is said unless you hit DC 28, in which case:
It is the verbal component of a spell. Spellcraft DC 17 reveals it to be:
Greater Snake's Swiftness. This is the source of the lizard's second attack this turn, and takes place after its first attack.

If you hit DC 38, you pinpoint the source of the sound:
F11, ground level.
You don't detect anything else of note, as far as I can tell. You're up.

[PhoenixRivers]

@OO:Listen: [roll0] per CM request.

[PhoenixRivers]

@Claudius/DM's:5 foot step to E1-G3.

Full attack: Will touch attack to grapple until successful. Will then grapple check to pin, until successful. Will then grapple check to damage.

Touch Attack to grapple(this provokes an AoO, if the creature has a 15 foot reach): [roll0]
If hit, Opposed grapple (creature has penalties as if 3 size categories smaller for all grapple checks vs me): [roll1]
If successful, Damage: [roll2] and we're grappling.

(If needed) Touch attack to initiate grapple: [roll3]
Grapple Check (to grapple, or pin, depending): [roll4]
Damage: [roll5] (does not apply if this is a pin attempt)

(If needed) Touch attack to initiate grapple: [roll6]
Grapple Check (to grapple, pin, or damage, depending): [roll7]
Damage: [roll8] (does not apply if this is a pin attempt)

(If needed) Touch attack to initiate grapple: [roll9]
Grapple Check (to grapple, pin, or damage, depending): [roll10]
Damage: [roll11] (does not apply if this is a pin attempt)

This is being spoilered, as my opponent may not actually have LOS to myself or his creature, and should therefore not be able to act with knowledge of my actions. In other words, he may not be able to act with such precision if he cannot somehow discern that his creature may be pinned.

Edit: GREAT. My highest roll in 4 attacks for grapple checks is now a 7. Lovely.

[Claudius Maximus]

Moonlitdreams:
Through your dinosaur's eyes, you see your opponent 5-step to E3-G1. He then attempts to grab the Battletitan.

If you do not interrupt that:
He's attempting to initiate a grapple, and successfully lands the touch attack to do so. You will have to roll some grapple checks for the Battletitan, each with a -12 penalty. Since you do not get to know how many attempts he has to grapple, just roll, say, ten. I'll tell you on a one-by-one basis what you see happen after each grapple attempt he makes, if you intend to use your immediate action. I just need your theoretical grapple rolls to construct a proper spoiler tree.
If you do want to interrupt that, go ahead and tell me what you're doing.

[PhoenixRivers]

@Claudius:It should be noted, if all posts up to and including 32 are valid, then my induced timeless body was activated on his turn, and has a duration of 1 round. Thus, it should expire immediately before his turn, which means that it is still active for mine.

EDIT: Also, Mark of the Demodand's ability forces the beast to make a Fort save, DC 23, for each melee hit, or be slowed for 3 rounds.

[Moonlitdreams]

Claudius:

I doubt I will be using the immediate action after all, but it depends on what I see from these grapple checks.

Grapple: [roll0]
Grapple: [roll1]
Grapple: [roll2]
Grapple: [roll3]
Grapple: [roll4]
Grapple: [roll5]
Grapple: [roll6]
Grapple: [roll7]
Grapple: [roll8]
Grapple: [roll9]

[Claudius Maximus]

Moonlitdreams:
After grabbing the Battletitan, your opponent successfully grapples it, dealing 32 damage.

He then attempts to pin it. If you do not interrupt that:
He fails.

He tries to do it again. If you do not interrupt that:
He fails once more.

He keeps at it though. If you do not interrupt his third attempt:
Another failure.

He does not make any more attempts after that. I'm not sure if his turn is over, though. I'll want to report the results to him once I know what you're doing.

[Moonlitdreams]

Claudius:

Is any of this damage fire or acid, by chance?

I do not interrupt these attempts, but the Battletitan has a form of freedom of movement, so this clause is true in this case:

The subject automatically succeeds on any grapple check made to resist a grapple attempt...
Would that mean that he does not take damage from the grapple either, since it does not succeed?

I will not do anything right now. Whenever his turn is over, please tell me.

[Claudius Maximus]

Moonlitdreams:
What is the source for the Battletitan's Freedom of Movement? I didn't see you cast it on him anywhere.

Asking about the damage now.

PhoenixRivers:
What is the type or types of damage dealt when you initiate the grapple? I assume it's lethal bludgeoning damage, but I'm checking just to be sure.

[Moonlitdreams]

Claudius:

In the process of customizing his feats, I gave him Vow of Poverty as one. That gives him freedom of movement, among other things.

[Claudius Maximus]

Moonlitdreams:

Only intelligent characters of good alignment and the highest moral standards can acquire exalted feats

Since the Battletitan is neutral, it does not qualify for any exalted feat, so I'm afraid it's not possible for it to have Vow of Poverty. It might also fail to meet the "intelligent" requirement, though that's a bit more gray.

I'm not sure you can customize the feats for a trained animal. I'll ask the other DMs about it. For this match, I'll rule that you can not, since I am completely unable to find any RAW that suggest that a bought animal is anything other than typical for it kind, and nothing that indicates you can choose an animal's feats when rearing or training it. If you can direct me to something that does allow this, I would be grateful.

In light of the Battletitan's lack of Freedom of Movement, are you changing your mind about intervening?

[Moonlitdreams]

Claudius:

Fair enough; I didn't realize that before, but it makes sense. And... no, I still think I will not intervene this time.

[Claudius Maximus]

Moonlitdreams:
I just saw something Phoenix edited into one of his previous posts. After being hit by the first attack, the Battletitan needs to make a fort save, DC 23. If successful:
Nothing happens.
If it is failed:
It is slowed. (You don't get to know the duration, but I'll keep track of it.)

PhoenixRivers:
Your first attack successfully hits the lizard, and you succeed in damaging it and bringing it into a grapple with you. However, all three of your pin attempts fail.

Is your turn over after this?

I just saw your edit about the slow effect, and I'm asking Moonlitdreams to roll for it now. Sorry about missing it. Whether or not it's slowed won't affect the success/failure of the grapples, though.

[PhoenixRivers]

@Claudius:Yes, my turn will be over.

[Moonlitdreams]

Claudius:

Alright.

Fort save: [roll0]

[Claudius Maximus]

PhoenixRivers:
The Lizard does not seem to be slowed.

PhoenixRivers has ended his turn. Initiative passes to Moonlitdreams.

[Moonlitdreams]

Claudius:

I wasn't sure whether to put this in spoilers or not, but... the Battletitan attempts to attack with its natural weapons, though at a -4 bonus because of the grapple.

Bite attack: [roll0]
Damage: [roll1]

Claw 1: [roll2]
Damage: [roll3]

Claw 2: [roll4]
Damage: [roll5]

Tail spike [roll6]
Damage: [roll7]

I will have further actions, but they depend on if these actions hit and what reaction I observe through the Battletitan's eyes.

[Moonlitdreams]

Claudius:

Forgot to say this before, but also, opposed grapple check to get out of the grapple: [roll0]

[Claudius Maximus]

Moonlitdreams:
Why are those attacks at a higher bonus than in the monster's statblock?


A creature can attack with only one of its natural weapons on its turn while grappling

What happens here is the Battletitan gets four iterative attacks with its bite, instead of its normal full attack routine. You can use these to attack, or to try to break the grapple (or do something else allowable in a grapple, like attempt to pin). Its claws and tail are not usable. In light of this, what is the Battletitan doing with its attacks?

[Moonlitdreams]

Claudius:

I think that's right now. But so tired right now... so not sure.

Four bite attacks. He's trying for damage right now. Take the bite from the last post with the rolls, and here are the other three.

Bite attack: [roll0]
Damage: [roll1]

Bite attack: [roll2]
Damage: [roll3]

Bite attack: [roll4]
Damage: [roll5]

[Claudius Maximus]

Moonlitdreams:
You seem to be mixing up two different options. Using a grapple check to deal damage would do 1d6+the Battletitan's strength modifier, the equivalent of an unarmed strike of its size. To deal its bite damage, it would have to make attack rolls with a -4 penalty to each attack (remember that these are iterative attacks, and as far as I can tell its routine would be +38/+33/+28/+23, including the -4 penalty).

What are you trying to do here? Attack once, then move to grapple-for-damage checks? You'll have to reroll damage for the grapple checks then. Also, each iterative loses 5 points of BAB, which would reduce your grapple checks after your first. Your grapple check iteratives would thus be +39/+34/+29/+24. You'll be opposed by your opponent's full grapple modifier for all of these.

PhenixRivers:
This battle seems to have entered spoiler mode, so I'll need all three flavors of your AC.

[PhoenixRivers]

@Claudius:All 3 flavors are AC 0 currently, due to sapping my AC for power attack, via mark of loyalty ability.

[Moonlitdreams]

Claudius:

I had been trying for damage, through using bite attacks. Does that mean that I have to roll them again?

[Claudius Maximus]

Moonlitdreams:
Yeah, that would probably be the best way to handle it. +38/+33/+28/+23, unless there's some modifier(s) I'm missing.

[Moonlitdreams]

Claudius:


Here you go:

Bite attack: [roll0]
Damage: [roll1]

Bite attack: [roll2]
Damage: [roll3]

Bite attack: [roll4]
Damage: [roll5]

Bite attack: [roll6]
Damage: [roll7]

The Battletitan has Multiattack, so each of those attack rolls get an extra +3 (except for the first), if this still applies while grappling.

[Claudius Maximus]

Moonlitdreams:
Multitattack applies only to secondary weapons, not iterative attacks. You're only using your primary weapon here.

Your fourth attack was a natural 20, so roll to confirm the critical, and reroll the damage.

I'll run the actions by Phoenix, and report the results to you.

PhoenixRivers:
The Battletitan is attempting to crunch you with its bite attack.

If you're not interrupting it in some way:
It hits, for 35 damage.

It is attacking again. If you don't interrupt it:
Another hit, this time for 32.

It attacks a third time. If you don't interrupt it:
It hits again, for 33.

It attacks a fourth time as well. If you don't interrupt it:
It hits. This one was a threat, but Moonlitdreams has not rolled to confirm yet, so I'll have to get back at you with the damage. If you're immune to crits, please inform me.

[PhoenixRivers]

@Claudius:I will be interrupting the bite attack.

Mark of the Lash (Name ability), touch attack: [roll0]

If this hits, the attack is foiled with no further effect. Other attacks will not be affected, but its bite attack is wasted. As natural weapons cannot be used within an iterative attack routine, and iterative is the only means that may be used in a grapple, that should be about all he can do.

[Claudius Maximus]

Phoenixrivers:
You successfully stop the bite attack.

I was actually ruling the natural attacks in a grapple thing the other way, that one could make iterative attacks with a natural weapon in a grapple as it's an exceptional situation. Upon closer inspection, it seems you're correct by RAW. Thanks for bringing that up.

Unfortunately, this invalidates the rest of Moonlitdreams' full attack, so I'll need to get back to you with a changed account.

Moonlitdreams:
Apparently I have no idea how natural attacks work in a grapple. The Battletitan might only be able to make one attack with its bite in this grapple, which is incredibly stupid, but quite possibly RAW. I'm debating this with Phoenix right now. I'll tell you what you can do when I've reached a decision.

[PhoenixRivers]

@Claudius:Yeah, the grapple rules are pretty borked to make natural attack creatures exceptionally BAD at grappling. Found it out when I was researching grappling for my dragon mini-campaign.


Natural Weapons

Natural weapons are weapons that are physically a part of a creature. A creature making a melee attack with a natural weapon is considered armed and does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Likewise, it threatens any space it can reach. Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons.Basically? If your primary attack is with a natural weapon, every attack which follows must be also with a natural weapon, as part of a natural attack routine. If you add natural weapons to an iterative attack routine (such as full attacking with a greatsword, and performing a bite attack), your natural weapons still exist outside of iteratives, being treated as an extra attack with a secondary natural weapon.


If You’re Grappling

When you are grappling (regardless of who started the grapple), you can perform any of the following actions. Some of these actions take the place of an attack (rather than being a standard action or a move action). If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses.

The interaction between the two bolded sections means that natural weapons in a grapple is generally a bad idea. If you start with a non-natural weapon, you cannot benefit from those extra attacks with natural weapons. If you start with a natural weapon, the rules on natural weapons mean you cannot gain additional attacks from iteratives.

Personally, I think it's stupid, as it relegates animals with claws and teeth to having to headbutt enemies in grapple to actually get multiple attacks. Then, I don't have the rules compendium, so I'm not sure if any of those rules were altered.

[Claudius Maximus]

PhoenixRivers:
The Rules Compendium introduced this:


Attack Your Opponent: You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, a natural weapon, or a light weapon against a creature you’re grappling. You take a –4 penalty on the attack roll. You can’t attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons.

A creature can attack with only one of its natural weapons on its turn while grappling, unless it has a special ability that allows it to do otherwise or its description provides an exception. This attack is usually made with the creature’s primary natural weapon.

The way I used to interpret this was that if you use, say, a bite attack as a primary natural weapon, you can effectively make iteratives with it since you can specifically spend an iterative to use the grapple maneuver "Attack Your Opponent". I think this is the way it's supposed to work, but we're arguing how it actually works.

The last part ("this attack") suggests that you can only do this sort of attack once per turn with your natural weapon, but I don't see anything restricting you from using your other iteratives to do other grapple maneuvers, like squeeze-for-damage or pin. If that did not apply, what would happen if you tried to deal damage with grapple checks a few times, and used your last iterative to attack with your natural weapon? It can't invalidate the grapple iteratives that came before it, and I can't find anything that indicates you can't make a natural attack after grappling for damage (you aren't using two weapons, since grappling for damage is not a weapon, even though it deals damage like an unarmed strike). I'm unclear whether you can bite as your second attack and still do a third and fourth iterative.

A big problem here is that we have statements to the effect that "you can't use iteratives with natural attacks" and "you can spend an iterative to make an attack with a natural weapon," which seem to contradict one another.

No offense, but you seem to right a lot, so I'm curious about your opinion on these things.

[PhoenixRivers]

@Claudius:Honestly, it could be interpreted a few different ways.

(1) A single Natural weapon may be used in a grapple per turn, with no restriction, allowing iteratives.
- This directly contradicts the rules in the natural weapon section that restrict Natural Weapons to a limited number per turn, laid out in the monster's entry. It also contradicts the section in natural weapons forbidding natural weapons to make iterative attacks. It's a judgement call as to whether Rules Compendium text is specific enough to override, but if so, this could be legal. I wouldn't personally agree with that judgement call, but it could be construed to be valid.

(2) A single natural weapon may be used in a grapple per turn, with the restriction that iteratives are not allowed with this; however, it falls within grapple guidelines, and takes up one of your attacks.
- I don't see anything blatantly contradictive with this, beyond allowing Natural Weapons to override the "no iteratives" part, which seems specific enough to me to rule on the contradiction. However, in this case, it would be most advantageous to use the bite as the last attack, as it would suffer a -5 penalty, rather than the penalty for iterative attacks/grapple checks.

(3) A single natural weapon may be used in a grapple per turn, with the restriction that iteratives are not allowed with this; grapple rules modify this to have a penalty based on iterative attacks.
- This one would essentially require houseruling to attempt to marry the Iterative and natural attack system in a grapple.

(4) A single natural weapon may be used in a grapple per turn, with the restriction that iteratives are not allowed with this; as natural weapons are not allowed with iterative progression, you must forego the ability to make iterative attacks as part of a full attack routine when you do this.
- This is the most restrictive interpretation. There's also nothing technically against it by RAW, although I personally think it's stupid as all hell. It's essentially the logical reasoning if you find that the "no iteratives" takes precedence over the Rules Compendium text, or more accurately, if you feel the Rules Compendium isn't specific enough to warrant overriding the base rule.

When I run games personally, I would use 2, or perhaps a modified version of 3 (allowing BAB-determined number of attacks, and letting the creature fit in its natural attack routine as best it could. This, however, directly contradicts Rules Compendium (allowing multiple different natural weapons per grapple routine), so I wouldn't suggest it here. I would also leave out italicized information when explaining to my players, as they generally would stomp my encounters flat if I also extended tactical advice to them.

Note: the text you stated as contradictory is only contradictory for BAB +6 or higher, when you choose to make a full attack action in a grapple. For lesser amounts, iteratives don't factor in. So it's not ALWAYS a contradiction. (4) takes that to mean that RC only applies when its rules that don't necessarily contradict only apply when they don't (basically, arguing that Natural weapons were included in RC text for single attack grapplers). (2) applies a strict precedence to RC, causing this to override even when it does contradict, and ruling the (sometimes it contradicts/sometimes it doesn't) part to be specific enough to qualify as specific enough.

Both have strong arguments for and against them, so honestly, for a strict RAW interpretation, it could go both ways, between 4, and 2. I think the interpretation of (1) is a bit off, as we attribute 1 sentence, essentially, to be specific and relevant to multiple rules. I've known people with Masters degrees in english that have a hard time getting that level of elegance in their written word, and honestly think it a ways beyond the people who write for Wizards, judging by their past work.

[Claudius Maximus]

PhoenixRivers:
I think I'll go with #2, since I think the Rules Compendium text essentially lets you make an attack with a natural weapon with an iterative when grappling, and I think that's specific enough to warrant an exception from the general rule about natural weapons and iteratives.

Thanks for your help composing the options like that.

Moonlitdreams:
Bu my reading of the grappling rules, it turns out the Battletitan can only attack with its bite once per round in a grapple, but can do whatever else it wants with its other three iteratives. You can grapple for damage, attempt a pin, etc.

If you want, you can keep your first bite attack, and redo the rest of your full attack. Alternatively, you can change it to something else than a bite attack, rerolling the whole full attack (your first attack does not have to be a bite).

I apologize for making you redo this full attack yet again.

[Moonlitdreams]

Claudius:

I guess that means no rolling for the crit confirmation, then.

I think I will use the last three for attempts to break the grapple, then, and only attacking once the grapple is broken.

Opposed grapple check: [roll0]

Opposed grapple check: [roll1] (if necessary)
If grapple is broken, bite attack: [roll2]
Damage (if biting): [roll3]

Opposed grapple check: [roll4] (if necessary)
If grapple is broken, bite attack: [roll5]
Damage (if biting): [roll6]

If the grapple is broken, please tell me so that I can post further actions.

[Claudius Maximus]

Moonlitdreams:
When the Battletitan attempts to bite your opponent, he lashes out at it with some kind of whip... tentacly... thing, countering the attack. The Battletitan's later attacks are unaffected. I'm asking Phoenix to roll the grapple checks now.

When you make iterative grapple checks, the later checks are made with a reduced base attack bonus. your second grapple attempt should thus be at +34, followed by +29 and +24. I'm afraid you'll need to reroll them again.

PhoenixRivers:
You successfully stop the lizard's bite attack (which was its first attack). After that, it tries to break out of the grapple. I'll need three grapple checks from you.

[Moonlitdreams]

Claudius:

:smallsigh: Okay.

Opposed grapple check: [roll0]

Opposed grapple check: [roll1] (if necessary)
If grapple is broken, bite attack: [roll2]
Damage (if biting): [roll3]

Opposed grapple check: [roll4] (if necessary)
If grapple is broken, bite attack: [roll5]
Damage (if biting): [roll6]

Opposed grapple check: [roll7] (if necessary)
If grapple is broken, bite attack: [roll8]
Damage (if biting): [roll9]

[PhoenixRivers]

@Claudius:Grapple check modifier was calculated incorrectly earlier. Here are current modifiers:

EDIT: My bad, calculated correctly, noted incorrectly on the sheet.

Str: 40 (+15). 18(base) + 4(racial) + 2(level gain) = 24. +6 (Animal Devotion) + 4 (Expansion) = 34. +6 (enhancement from item) = 40

BAB: 13

Size: For Grapple, colossal (+16)
Feat: Aberrant Blood (+2)

Final modifier: +46.

Grapple Checks to oppose: [roll0]
[roll1]
[roll2]

[Claudius Maximus]

Moonlitdreams:
All the attempts fail, I'm afraid. The Battletitan is still grappling with your opponent.

I believe you still have a halfling's worth of actions, though.

PhoenixRivers:
You beat all three of its escape attempts.

[Moonlitdreams]

Claudius:

Alright...
The halfling will Heighten a Baleful Transposition to spell level 5, giving it a Will Save DC of 24. This spell will switch his position with mine (the halfling, not the Battletitan), if he does not save.
My turn may or may not be over.

[Claudius Maximus]

Moonlitdreams:
As far as I can tell, you still don't have Line of Effect to either of them, so you can't affect them with Baleful Transposition.

Also, Baleful Transposition can not affect huge creatures, which both your opponent and the Battletitan are.

[Moonlitdreams]

Claudius:

Ah, that's true.

Instead, the halfling will pull out her Scroll of Greater Mirror Image and cast it on herself.
[roll0] images.
Then she flies up to just above the column. (20 feet up, F11).

This will likely provoke an AoO, but I have a contingency that should stop it, if the mirror images aren't effective enough. (see my buffs)

Anyway, my planned action after that AoO is to cast Celerity and then an Extended Heightened Halt on Phoenix. Will DC 24.

All of that said, I will be out of town until Sunday, so that is the most information I can give you about my actions until then.

[Claudius Maximus]

Moonlitdreams:
Halt is an immediate spell, so you can't cast it by casting Celerity first. Are you just going to cast Halt alone, or are you making some other change in light of this?

Moving to F11 +20 won't provoke AoOs, since you only provoke when leaving a threatened square, not entering. Regardless, I'd like your AC; normal, touch, and flat footed.

[Moonlitdreams]

Claudius:

I have returned.

Okay, no Celerity then, just an Extended Heightened Halt on Phoenix. Once again, Will DC 24.

AC: 23, Touch: 14, FF: 23
But it is worth noting that I have a contingency relevant to this.

Contingency: (Resilient Sphere centered on me "when I am attacked")

[Claudius Maximus]

PhoenixRivers:
You see your opponent rise up to F11, +20. There are seven of her, but you only feel one of them with your Touchsight.

A DC 24 spellcraft check reveals:
The other six are illusions resulting from the spell Greater Mirror Image.
She casts a spell at you. A DC 18 Spellcraft check reveals it to be:
Halt.
Make a DC 24 will save.

On success:
Nothing happens to you.

You can make a DC 28 Spellcraft check to identify the spell you just saved against, if you didn't recognize it when it was cast. If you succeed:
It was Halt, from PHBII.

On failure:
You are unable to move. You're not helpless, just immobilized, and can still take actions.

I don't think you can make an AoO, since you're grappling and it's an immediate spell in any case.

After this, it's your turn.

[PhoenixRivers]

@Claudius:Spellcraft (DC 18): [roll0]
Not rolling on the DC 24, as I cannot make the check.

Will Save: [roll1] (+5 bonus from spellstrike item vs spells)

EDIT: To clarify "unable to move", but not helpless, my ability to attack and make grapple checks is unaffected?

[Moonlitdreams]

Claudius:

Just to clarify something about this Halt... the text of Halt says that it sticks the enemies feet to the floor and that they cannot move for 1 round. Extended, wouldn't that last for 2 rounds? It makes sense to me, but I just wanted to make sure.

[Claudius Maximus]

PhoenixRivers:
Are you untrained in Spellcraft, or do you just have a net modifier of +0? I ask because it's a trained-only skill, and thus you wouldn't even get to roll without ranks.

You can take any action as normal, except move. It's like your feet are glued to the floor. You don't lose dex to AC or take any other penalty. You can grapple with no penalties; the only effect this has on grapples is that you'll automatically fail if you try to move the grapple.

Moonlitdreams:
That's correct, it will last for two rounds.

[PhoenixRivers]

@Claudius:2 ranks in spellcraft, with a -2 int penalty. I'm aware of trained only rules. :p

That said, should I need to move the grapple, I'll give myself freedom of movement as an instantaneous action. No need to waste that power if I don't need it yet. I intend to swap grapple partners here in a second with one of them.

Is it still my opponent's turn, after the will save effect? (incidentally, as you can see me grappling your critter now, I failed the will save, and am stuck to the floor).

[Claudius Maximus]

The way his actions are stated makes that very unlikely. It is almost certainly your turn.

[Moonlitdreams]

Claudius:

I am not able to cast Celerity in this same turn, since I cast Halt, correct? If I can cast Celerity, I will. If not, my turn is over.

[Claudius Maximus]

Moonlitdreams:
You can not cast Celerity as well. You used up your swift for Greater Mirror Image, and your next turn's swift for Halt, via immediate action. You'll get another immediate right after ending your next turn, but until then you can't cast Celerity.

It is your turn, then, Phoenix.

[Moonlitdreams]

Claudius:

That's what I figured. Thanks.


Go ahead.

[PhoenixRivers]

OO/claudius:I just realized I don't have much say in the matter on the halt spell. My movement was impeded, and I mistakenly have a Craft contingent Freedom of movement, with that trigger. I am not going to be affected by Halt, though I'm not sure that's noticable until I actually move.

Also, Power attacking for 13, as I'm taking a full attack action, I shall apply the penalty to AC instead of attack checks.

Let's go for Beastie Whackin!

Grapple Checks!
I will attempt to pin until the creature is pinned. Further checks will be to deal damage.

Grapple: [roll0] (your creature's check takes a -12 penalty for size reduction)

Grapple: [roll1]
Damage (if pin attempt 1 was successful): [roll2]
(And Fort save, if damage occurs)

Grapple: [roll3]
Damage (if pin attempt 1 (or 2) was successful): [roll4]
(And Fort save, if damage occurs)

Grapple: [roll5]
Damage (if pin attempt 1 (or 2/3) was successful): [roll6]
(And Fort save, if damage occurs)

That'll be my action. (All fort saves are DC 23)

[Moonlitdreams]

Opposed Grapple checks (factoring in the -12):

1: [roll0]

2: [roll1]

3: [roll2]

4: [roll3]

Pin succeeds, the lizard takes damage. He automatically passes those Fort saves, though.

[Claudius Maximus]

You automatically fail a save if you roll a natural one, so you'll have to roll just in case.

[Moonlitdreams]

Alright.

Fort Save 1: [roll0]
Fort Save 2: [roll1]
Fort Save 3: [roll2]

[Moonlitdreams]

Since you said "That'll be my action", does that mean your turn is over?

[PhoenixRivers]

@Claudius/OO: By my count, not counting DR (which should be hinted to me, if it exists, per RAW on DR), the creature has sustained 282 damage. Verify that it's still kickin?

51 damage (post 21)
51 damage, 48 damage (post 25)
32 damage (post 67, damage rolled in post 57)
31 damage, 39 damage, 30 damage (post 106)

FYI: The damage is magical and piercing, as I am using armor spikes.

Yes, that means my turn is over.

[Moonlitdreams]

Round actions:

Pull out one of my scrolls of Scroll of Empowered, Maximized, Twinned Ray of Stupidity, cast it on Phoenix.

More possibly depending on the result of this attack.


You see the halfling pull out a scroll, read it and then send a pair of screeching bright yellow beams from her fingertips, heading toward you.

Ranged Touch Attack: [roll0]
Ranged Touch Attack: [roll1]


Damage: (5 + [roll2]) + (5 + [roll3]) Intelligence damage.

So that's 19 Int damage altogether, if both hit. I kind of doubt the first hits, though.

[Moonlitdreams]

Actually. At this same time, the creature you are grappling writhes around, trying to get free.

Opposed grapple check: [roll0]
Opposed grapple check: [roll1]
Opposed grapple check: [roll2]
Opposed grapple check: [roll3]

If it escapes before the last attempt, it will attempt to attack, so any grapple checks after it succeeds are not used to grapple.

[PhoenixRivers]

Grapple 1: Auto succeed
Grapple 2: you should have a -5 penalty for being a 2nd grapple check, bringing it to a 43. I autosucceed vs that.

Grapple 3: you should have a -10 penalty for being a 3rd grapple check, bringing it to 49.

Opposed check: [roll0]

Grapple 4: you should have a -15 penalty, bringing it to 38. I autosucceed vs that.

I'll wait for Claudius to verify that your numbers are right, and that you have a method of avoiding hitting your beastie, as you're shooting into a grapple. In addition, he'll have to adjudicate one other thing, that I'll leave for him:

OO/Claudius:I have an Ex ability which makes all attacks vs me have a 20% miss chance.

[Claudius Maximus]

PhoenixRivers:
It does not have DR. It's still alive, though.

Moonlitdreams:
Your scroll is illegal, as per these rules:

Spell Completion and Spell Trigger items can not have metamagic effects unless you are buying a specific printed example.
Scrolls of higher than 9th level do not exist.
You're going to have to choose another action. You can keep the scroll(s), but they're now un-metamagicked.

If you're using a ranged attack, you have a 50% chance to hit your Battletitan because you are shooting into a grapple. You will also take a -4 penalty on the attack roll for shooting into melee, unless you have a way around that, such as the feat Precise Shot.

If you're attacking Phoenix with a ranged attack:
He has a 20% miss chance.

[Moonlitdreams]

Claudius:

Ah, okay. I wish I had seen that rule before, but okay.

I will cast Mass Snake's Swiftness instead, granting the Battletitan one extra attack.


Actually, Phoenix, the creature you are fighting has the Multiattack feat, so it grapples at full BaB, -2, -4 and -6. Please roll opposed grapple checks against those if you do not auto-succeed. The creature takes one more try, as well.

Opposed grapple: [roll0]

I am apparently not shooting into a grapple at you, after all. If the creature does not break free, my turn is over.

[PhoenixRivers]

Multiattack does not matter. When you use grapple attacks, you must use iterative attacks, not natural attack progression.

Multiattack only applies for natural attack progression (it lessens the penalty of the natural secondary weapons). Those aren't the attacks you're getting right now. You are getting additional attacks from high base attack bonus (and it looks like your BAB is +16 or higher). Those always have successive attacks at a -5 penalty, and there is no feat to lessen that.

EDIT: That 5th attempt is normally not allowed within a full attack pattern. If this is a result of a bonus attack of some sort (such as it getting an extra standard action), your check should be at the full bonus (+39, IIRC), as it's not an iterative attack. It doesn't much matter, as you rolled a 2 (even with the full bonus, you still only reach 41, and my modifier alone beats that).

EDIT 2: I think that the difficulties stem from a misconception concerning Natural attack routines vs iterative attack routines.

Rules for natural attack routines and grappling: 1) Natural weapons may be used no more often than the creature's stat block indicates. (A dragon may have 5 attacks, but it may not bite more than once). (SRD, Natural Weapons)

2) When you make a natural attack, you give up iterative attacks (with minor exceptions. (SRD, Natural Weapons)

3) 1 natural weapon only may be used as part of a grapple routine. (Rules Compendium)

4) Grapple routines use iterative attacks only, not natural attack progression. (SRD, Grappling)

Since you're making grapple checks to escape, natural weapons never enter in. You're using iterative progression, which is full, -5, -10, -15.

[Claudius Maximus]

Phoenix's post about natural attack and iterative rules is correct.

PhoenixRivers:
Right before the lizard gets its 5th attack, you see your opponent cast a spell. Spellcraft DC 17 reveals:
It is Mass Snake's Swiftness.

[PhoenixRivers]

OO/DM:Spellcraft:[roll0]

[PhoenixRivers]

Let's go for the following, as this thing can't have too much keeping it up.

Pin. Once a successful pin is established, damage.

Grapple to pin: [roll0]

Grapple to pin/damage: [roll1]
Damage (if applicable): [roll2]

Grapple to pin/damage: [roll3]
Damage (if applicable): [roll4]

Grapple to pin/damage: [roll5]
Damage (if applicable): [roll6]

Every successful damage will force a DC 23 Fort save.

[Moonlitdreams]

I think that the difficulties stem from a misconception concerning Natural attack routines vs iterative attack routines.
That was true, but I believe I understand now.



Opposed grapple: [roll0]

Opposed grapple: [roll1]

Opposed grapple: [roll2]

Opposed grapple: [roll3]

Fort saves if necessary: [roll4]
[roll5]
[roll6]

Edit: Okay, you succeed in pinning the lizard on the second try, but it only takes damage on the last one.

OO/DM:

Note to self: Battletitan has 171 hitpoints left.

[PhoenixRivers]

OO:
51 damage (post 21)
51 damage, 48 damage (post 25)
32 damage (post 67, damage rolled in post 57)
31 damage, 39 damage, 30 damage (post 106)
33 damage (post 120)

Total: 315

By my count, this beast has sustained 315 damage. It seems to be something of a tank.

[Moonlitdreams]

It really is.

[PhoenixRivers]

It really is.

It needs to make a fort save, then it's your turn :)

[Moonlitdreams]

The Fort saves were in the post above (the 3rd save would be applicable for this), unless you prefer I roll it again.

I'll be posting my turn in a minute.

[PhoenixRivers]

The Fort saves were in the post above (the 3rd save would be applicable for this), unless you prefer I roll it again.

I'll be posting my turn in a minute.

That works.

[Moonlitdreams]

Or more than a minute, but anyway.

Round actions (OO/DM):

The halfling casts a Heightened Greater Slide on Phoenix. Battletitan's action to come after I see if it works.


You see the halfling mouthing arcane words and casting a spell at you. Make a DC 24 Will save.

Spellcraft DC 18 reveals this spell to be:

Greater Slide


If you make the save:

Nothing happens.


If you do not make the save:

You will be slid to E1-G3, which breaks your grapple with the lizard.


The lizard's actions will depend on the result of this save, so I will do that after you roll it.

[PhoenixRivers]

Spellcraft: [roll0]

Will Save: [roll1]

I am unaffected by the spell.

OO:Delaying the effect for 1 round, using the Moment of Succor ability.

[Moonlitdreams]

The lizard's actions:

Grapple to escape: [roll0]

(If necessary) Grapple to escape: [roll1]
(If already escaped): Attacking: [roll2]
Damage: [roll3]

(If necessary) Grapple to escape: [roll4]
(If already escaped): Attacking: [roll5]
Damage: [roll6]

(If necessary) Grapple to escape: [roll7]
(If already escaped): Attacking: [roll8]
Damage: [roll9]

If it manages to escape, and more than one of those attacks are used, -2 to each attack roll after the first.

And that ends my turn.

[Claudius Maximus]

That last grapple check is +10 too high. It should be made at +24. (You don't really have to reroll it though, since Phoenix automatically beats it.)

[PhoenixRivers]

Grapple Check 1: [roll0]
Grapple Check 2: [roll1]
Check 3 and 4, I automatically beat.

Note: As the creature is Pinned, you need 1 check to escape pin, and another to escape grapple. If you don't win both of the above checks, you don't escape.

EDIT: You beat neither.

[PhoenixRivers]

My Action:

I ready an action: (OO) Activate Belt of Battle (3 charges) if the Larger creature attempts any action at all.

End turn.

As your turn starts, I am slid to E1-G3, breaking the grapple with the lizard.

OO:New Maneuvers:[roll0]
[roll1]

[Moonlitdreams]

Round actions (OO/DM):

The halfling casts a Heightened Grease on Phoenix. Battletitan's action to come after I see if it works.


The halfling gestures at you and casts another spell. Make another DC 24 save, this time Reflex.

Spellcraft DC 17 reveals this spell to be:

Grease


If you make the save:

Nothing happens, but you will need to make a DC 10 Balance check to move.


If you do not make the save:

You fall prone.


Once again, the lizard's actions depend on the result of this save, so I will do that after you roll it.

[PhoenixRivers]

I make a touch attack on you: [roll0]. **Nat 20**

If this hits, your spell fails without effect.

[Moonlitdreams]

Well, okay. The attack would hit, but is deflected by a globe of shimmering force that suddenly appears around the halfling.

With a Spellcraft check (DC 22, I believe), you realize the effect is:

Resilient Sphere


OO/DM:

That attack activated my contingent Resilient Sphere.


With that, the lizard full attacks you.


Bite: [roll0]
[roll1]

Claw: [roll2]
[roll3]

Claw: [roll4]
[roll5]

Tail spike: [roll6]
Damage: [roll7]

[PhoenixRivers]

That's fine. If it's force, it blocks LoE, and protects me from your spell.

I am at E1-G3.

Lizard is at E6-G8 (where the grapple initiated, and was never moved).

Verify that it has 15 foot reach, as last time it had to close to 10 feet to attack me.

[Moonlitdreams]

True.

The lizard 5-steps forward before attacking.

[PhoenixRivers]

That 5 foot step provokes an AoO (due to thicket of blades stance).
Using Stand Still:

Attack: [roll0]
If hit: DC [roll1] Reflex Save or negate the movement and be unable to take further move actions this round.

If Threat: [roll2]
If Crit: Add [roll3] to the DC.

Let me know if I hit before I decide whether or not to take my ready action.

Incidentally, if it does hit, DC 31 reflex Save and a DC 23 Fort save.

[Moonlitdreams]

Does not hit. Nice trick though, with the scaling Reflex save. I'll have to look that one up.

Also, can you really take a readied action if you readied it and then did something else (the touch attack)?

[Claudius Maximus]

The touch attack was not his readied action. Phoenix is fine, as far as I can tell.

Also, the DC to recognize that force globe is actually 25.

[PhoenixRivers]

I take my Readied action.

Claudius:Just realized that the belt of battle has already been used earlier, on round 1. As I was going to full attack, is it acceptable if I take a single attack instead?

[Claudius Maximus]

PhoenixRivers:
Oh, I missed that. My apologies.

You may take a single attack, since it's pretty likely you were going for a full attack.

[PhoenixRivers]

@Claudius:Yeah, especially since at this juncture, a move would be far better, as the creature wouldn't be able to follow me.

When I use a standard action attack, I am allowed to attack with each weapon I wield. That is: Spiked Chain, Armor spikes, Gauntlet(Unarmed strike).

This is an ability of the Mark of the Tempest.

My readied action:

Touch Attack to trip: [roll0]
If this hits, opposed check: [roll1] (trip check modifiers are Str+(4 for each size category larger than medium.))
If I fail, I will drop the spiked chain to avoid being tripped.

Attack with Armor Spikes: [roll2] **Critical Threat**
If this hits: [roll3]
If a threat: [roll4]
If this crits: [roll5]

Attack with Unarmed Strike: [roll6]
If this hits: [roll7]
If a threat: [roll8]
If this crits: [roll9]

If the first attack hits, I need a DC 31 Reflex save.
If any attack hits, I need a DC 23 Fort save for each (including the first).

[Moonlitdreams]

Touch attack hits. Am I supposed to use the creature's Strength or its Strength modifier for the opposed check?

Critical obviously hits.

Unarmed strike does not hit.

[Moonlitdreams]

Forgot the saves:

Reflex: [roll0]
Fort (for 1st): [roll1]
Fort (for 2nd): [roll2]

[Claudius Maximus]

Am I supposed to use the creature's Strength or its Strength modifier for the opposed check?

You use its strength modifier.

[Moonlitdreams]

Alright, thanks.

Opposed trip check: [roll0]

[PhoenixRivers]

EDIT: You're representing a Huge size (+8), and a 50 strength, is that correct?

ORIGINAL: Results of Failed Reflex Save: Your creature is Slowed.

Results of Failed Fort Save (Nat 1): Your creature is Slowed.

OO:Reflex Save Slow lasts until the end of My next turn.

Fort save slow lasts for 3 full rounds.



An affected creature moves and attacks at a drastically slowed rate. A slowed creature can take only a single move action or standard action each turn, but not both (nor may it take full-round actions). Additionally, it takes a -1 penalty on attack rolls, AC, and Reflex saves. A slowed creature moves at half its normal speed (round down to the next 5-foot increment), which affects the creature’s jumping distance as normal for decreased speed.
This means that after your 5 foot step, you will only get 1 attack.

[Moonlitdreams]

Alright, then only the first attack from post #135 is valid. Does it hit?

Actually, nevermind, only a +16 from the Str mod. I will roll again if you wish, or you can just -4 to the roll.

[Claudius Maximus]

Moonlitdreams:
Your saves look a bit too high. A standard Battletitan's fort save is +29, and its reflex save is +22. Is there a reason the saves are 4 higher than normal (like some buff?) I don't see any such reason.

Adjusting them to the normal values would not affect the success or failure of any of your above saves. I just want to point this out for the future.

[Moonlitdreams]

Claudius:

I am certain there is a reason, I just need to look over my notes and try to find it. I will get back to you in the event that I manage to. :smallsigh:

Anyway, thanks for the notice. I'll change them back in the future if I do not find my buff note on that.

[PhoenixRivers]

Alright, then only the first attack from post #135 is valid. Does it hit?

Actually, nevermind, only a +16 from the Str mod. I will roll again if you wish, or you can just -4 to the roll.

I'm happy with the -4 to roll.

My result was a 38.
Your modified result is a 37 (41-4).

The creature is tripped at 15 feet out, and slowed.

[Moonlitdreams]

Alright. As far as I can tell I do not have actions left, so your turn.

[PhoenixRivers]

The creature can stand up, though that would provoke an AoO. The attack never went off, so it still has a standard or a move action remaining.

[Moonlitdreams]

Alright, I'll try that.

The lizard stands up, and then if the AoO does not stop it from attacking, uses its standard action:

Bite: [roll0]
[roll1]

[PhoenixRivers]

Standing up is a move action. It doesn't get both, as it is slowed. However, next round, it should be able to do something such as a partial charge or the like.

AoO for Stand up: [roll0]
If hit: [roll1]
If threat: [roll2]
If Crit: [roll3] more

[Moonlitdreams]

Gotcha. Well, the AoO barely misses, but it does miss.

Your turn now.

[PhoenixRivers]

Full Attack:

Touch attack to grapple: [roll0]
If Hit, opposed grapple: [roll1]
If success: [roll2] damage.

At this point, if I've not grappled, I'll try again. If I have grappled, I'll try to pin.

Touch attack to grapple (if necessary): [roll3]
Opposed grapple (either to establish grapple or pin): [roll4] **Auto success**
If success and not a pin attempt: [roll5] damage.

At this point, for all future attacks, if I've not grappled, I'll try again. If I have grappled, I'll try to pin.
If I've pinned, I'll try to damage.

Touch attack to grapple (if necessary): [roll6]
Opposed grapple (either to establish grapple, pin, or damage): [roll7] **Auto success**
If success and not a pin attempt: [roll8] damage.

Touch attack to grapple (if necessary): [roll9]
Opposed grapple (either to establish grapple, pin, or damage): [roll10]
If success and not a pin attempt: [roll11] damage.

That should be it for my action.