Warhammer 40K Tabletop VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Math" [Archive] - Page 4

Trixie

2010-09-23, 05:28 PM

The game is objective-based? Get your Ironclads onto the objective. Contest everything.

Um... How exactly they're going to punch through the IG to reach objectives in the IG's side of the table? Even with 180 cm wide table, IG can easily form four rank deep cordon using recruits alone.

If IGs commander knows what he is doing, he will be the only one contesting everything :smalltongue:

You're changing the list again. And if you're doing that with Guard, you're doing it wrong.

Um, since when giving extra weapon to Sergeant who is in the squad by default (so, there are what, 30 sergeants in the troop squads alone) is changing the list? :smallconfused:

Or Deep Strike somewhere in your own Deployment Zone.

The only option that does not end in loss, and even then, Drop Pods are a net waste of points.

And, even then you have to pray you roll the reserves before your remaining forces are overwhelmed or any available spot is flooded :smallwink:

The list is;
Creed and Command
Command
(x6) Infantry Platoon; x5 Infantry Squads (Combined), x50 Conscripts

Um, the guy that is needed to give all your units (with the right placement) Stubborn, Czenkow, is an option for an unit that must be taken for this list.

And he is a logical choice when you have that many Conscripts anyway.

...Creed was not originally in the list, but, if you want to dish out x12 FRF!SRF! Orders per turn - like the exercise that we're doing - then he needs to be there.

Eh, instead of getting Creed & Kell for 12 orders, you can get Czenkow and Al-Rahem and it would be cheaper.

Plus, Creed can give his units Fearless as well.

As everyone knows Schrodinger's List can beat everything.

Except Schroedinger's (oe in German transcription) List is more of a case of adding extra units, not the logical wargear to units you must take anyway. Even if we kept this to a minimum point cost, replacing Creed & Kell with two mentioned above would still grant points for a few minor upgrades.

By the way, was there something in Third Ed about damaging vehicles on 2x sixes?

Oslecamo

2010-09-23, 05:31 PM

By the way, was there something in Third Ed about damaging vehicles on 2x sixes?

Dunno about 3e, but back in Rogue Trader there was a rule that if you possibly couldn't suceed on a roll to wound/hit/penetrate, you could suceed if you rolled two sixs in a row.

Cheesegear:Even if there's super iroclad fans out there, they pack them all with double flamers?:smallconfused:

Cheesegear

2010-09-23, 05:34 PM

Um... How exactly they're going to punch through the IG to reach objectives in the IG's side of the table? Even with 180 cm wide table, IG can easily form four rank deep cordon using recruits alone.

Movement? :smallconfused:

Um, since when giving extra weapon to Sergeant who is in the squad by default (so, there are what, 30 sergeants in the troop squads alone) is changing the list? :smallconfused:

I never give my Sergeants extra weapons. Nobody who plays Infantry Guard does. Even so, you're still adding more points.

And he is a logical choice when you have that many Conscripts anyway.

Logic? In 40K?
Anyway, he was not part of the original list.

Eh, instead of getting Creed & Kell for 12 orders, you can get Czenkow and Al-Rahem and it would be cheaper.

Nobody is taking Kell. He's fairly crap.

The excercise is as follows, nothing else;
600 Lasguns, with FRF!SRF! will beat anything in the game. You need Creed for the exercise. If you don't have Creed, you're doing something that we weren't talking about. If you're not using FRF!SRF! on every single unit as much as possible, you're not doing what we're talking about.

There may be 'better' things (there definitely is, what kind of rube takes Conscripts over Heavy Weapons?). But, that's not the point. The point is, here is a list, that can beat 'everything'.

Hang on, no it can't. Exercise over.

By the way, was there something in Third Ed about damaging vehicles on 2x sixes?

Yeah. I read the thread. You were given an answer.

Cheesegear: Even if there's super iroclad fans out there, they pack them all with double flamers? :smallconfused:

My friends do. Dual Heavy Flamers are the best setup on an Ironclad for not that many points. There's really no reason not to.

Closet_Skeleton

2010-09-23, 05:38 PM

Apparently I have to quote myself now.

No.

The Imperial Guard Armoured Company list had a special rule that said if you rolled a 6 to penetrate but still failed, you could get a glancing hit if you rolled a second 6.

This rule only applied to one varient army list.

Trixie

2010-09-23, 06:03 PM

I read the thread. You were given an answer.

I was asking you, specifically, as Oslecamo mentioned 2nd Ed, and CS only had one variant list.

Apparently I have to quote myself now.

Eh, I did a bit of goggling and such a rule is mentioned elsewhere. There's even a comic about it:

I did this little 3 pager featuring Mr. Culexus' Cultist and /tg/ home brew chapter Angry Marine as sort of a fun way to try to figure out the page layouts and art style for the project title is drawn from the old 3rd edition rule where the most powerful tank in the game could be taken out fairly easily just by rolling a large number of dice, this almost always assured a 1 and 6 chance (or 1 in 3 chance, i think 5 counted too) of destroying the vehicle. "great shot kid! that was 1 in 3" just doesn't sound as epic as 1 in a million.

And the actual links:

http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs47/f/2009/231/b/9/good_ol___days_1_by_joeyvegasICS.jpg

http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs47/f/2009/231/b/b/good_ol___days_2_by_joeyvegasICS.jpg

http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs48/f/2009/231/7/c/good_ol___days_3_by_joeyvegasICS.jpg

So, if I'm wrong, I'm not the only one wrong :P

Closet_Skeleton

2010-09-23, 06:33 PM

Blood Angels Captain - 100 points

5 tactical marines- 90 points

5 tactical marines- 90 points

10 deathcompany - 200 points

Deathcompany dreadnought in lucius pattern drop pod - 175 points
x2

furioso dreadnoughts in lucius pattern drop pod - 175 points
x3

995 points. You win/draw any game.

(just make sure that at least 2 of them have blood fists, otherwise a triple ironclas army will surprise you with their chainfists)

Except knowing my luck if I tried that then 5 hammernators would wipe out all my dreadnoughts. So it would be a draw.

Or you opponent could just choose to put his entire army into reserve and then its just a matter of who gets lucky as your armies come in like treacle.

Stupid guard list

HQ
Company Command Squad
Master of Ordnance, Officer of the Fleet
110 points

Company Command Squad
Master of Ordnance
80 points

Troops
Infantry Platoon
Command Squad and 2 Infantry squads, vannila
130 points

50 conscripts (a waste, they'll only run away without a lord commissar)
200 points

Veteran Squad
3 melta guns
100 points

Veteran Squad
3 melta guns
100 points

Veteran Squad
3 melta guns
100 points

Fast Attack
Vendetta
130 points

Vendetta
130 points

Vendetta
130 points

Heavy Support
2 Basilisks
250 points

2 Basilisks
250 points

2 Medusa
bastion breacher shells
280 points

total: 1990 points

Just wanted to do something stupid that wasn't infantry guard.

So, if I'm wrong, I'm not the only one wrong :P

Wrong memes are pretty common. Such as the Creed ones that imply he's granting Bane Blade's infiltrate rather than scout.

Cheesegear

2010-09-23, 06:37 PM

Eh, I did a bit of goggling and such a rule is mentioned elsewhere. There's even a comic about it:

No. The comic is not conducive to your argument. The comic is actually talking about the rule where Glancing Hits could destroy vehicles. So, yeah, I guess if you rolled a 6 to Glance, then a 6 for damage, you would destroy a vehicle.

Necrons used to be one of the best armies in the game when 6s on the Glancing Hit table could destroy vehicles.

Also, citing *chan to back up your argument, is also not a good idea.

One Step Two

2010-09-23, 07:43 PM

*Pulls out his dusty copy of the 3rd Edition rule book*

Okay children, it's story time. Back when the world was simple, and the rulebook which cost $70 was worth paying for because it had almost complete codecies in the book, including wargear.

We had a far more vicious vehicle destruction system, where glancing, penetrating and Ordanance hits had their own tables to roll on, there was no precedent in the main rules for being able to destroy any vehicles with a weapon that did not cause a glancing or penetrating hit.

However, we pull up another chapter, Chapter Approved that is, which may have, repeay may have, used a rules variant for fighting against mechanised forces, it suggested a house rule for armies who were not prepared, gain the "lucky hit" rule, whereby a roll of a 6 to hit, and a 6 to penetrate caused a glancing hit. I'll try and track it down, I found my copies of Chapter Approved 2003 and 2004, I think it was in the 2002 edition.

† Dran †

2010-09-23, 07:59 PM

Melee? Well, characters with power fists/weapons. Multiple ones in squads with 50+ wounds. Except for SW cheese, no one can bring more than 10-20 wounds in an unit, meaning IG will grind them even with 4:1 loss ratio.

Well... no not just space wolves. Blood angel dread lists will wipe the floor with this as well (and so you know I play one, so yes people do play this list :smallwink:) Furioso's and Death company dreads with dual blood talons can effectively never finish killing something, considering for each wound caused they get another attack and against guardsmen its not hard to keep going.. Whilst personal in game experience has shown me that they will eventually stop, against guard this usually doesn't happen until the 20 wound mark.

Wraith

2010-09-24, 04:33 AM

Now now, who the hell brings that army to the table by default? You're using schrodinger's list as well!:smallamused:

*Raises a hand* I have.

....Well, alright, I kind of lie. 1x Venerable, 2x Ironclad and 3x Basic Dreadnoughts have been used a couple of times, though. So sue me, because I didn't have the right models at the time! :smallbiggrin:

Cheesegear:[/B]Even if there's super iroclad fans out there, they pack them all with double flamers?:smallconfused:

As I said above I haven't.... but I sure would, given the chance. I take my army theme very seriously, but even with that in mind I still try to make it competitive, and Flamers are the way forward.

Closet_Skeleton

2010-09-24, 07:17 AM

However, we pull up another chapter, Chapter Approved that is, which may have, repeay may have, used a rules variant for fighting against mechanised forces, it suggested a house rule for armies who were not prepared, gain the "lucky hit" rule, whereby a roll of a 6 to hit, and a 6 to penetrate caused a glancing hit. I'll try and track it down, I found my copies of Chapter Approved 2003 and 2004, I think it was in the 2002 edition.

Yeah, that was what I was talking about.

Its definately in "the second book of the astronomicon", the one with SoB (from before the inqusition codexes) and rules for the metal 2nd edition Necron models (from before the plastic necrons and codex came out).

ShadowFighter15

2010-09-24, 08:08 AM

This may seem like a stupid question, but I was talking to the guy at the local game store (who's also the TO for any 40k tournaments the store runs) and he said that since Vulkan's special ability doesn't specify combi-meltas, they don't benefit from it.

Now I've checked Vulkan's rule, the armoury entry for combi weapons and the FAQ and I can't find anything that would prove him wrong. Is this a case of moronic RAW or is there something I can show him to change his mind (considering most of the tournaments I'll be playing in will be at that store and with him as the TO, you can see why I might want to get him to change his interpretation).

Cheesegear

2010-09-24, 08:13 AM

Now I've checked Vulkan's rule, the armoury entry for combi weapons and the FAQ and I can't find anything that would prove him wrong. Is this a case of moronic RAW...

It's a case of moronic RAW. Its generally accepted that Vulkan and Combi-Meltas do work, but, if he's the TO, then that's how it is and there's nothing you can do about it.

Besides, there aren't too many reasons to give anyone Combi-Meltas anyway. With the singular exception of Sternguard. And, if you do it right, they don't get any benefit from Vulkan anyway.

Trixie

2010-09-24, 09:34 AM

It's a case of moronic RAW. Its generally accepted that Vulkan and Combi-Meltas do work, but, if he's the TO, then that's how it is and there's nothing you can do about it.

Codex: Spees Mareens, page 97: Combi-Weapons are bolters [...] housing another weapon, [...] meltagun. Next paragraph mentions where you can find their profiles and how you fire them (one at a time). There, it's explicitly stated that's two weapons in one, and one happens to have precise name needed for Vulkan's bonus. No gimmicks required.

Incidentally, RAWdiots managed to bar one weapon from receiving Vulkan's bonus, that is, ironically, his own Gauntlet of the Forge, as it's not a heavy flamer, it merely fires like one.

Besides, there aren't too many reasons to give anyone Combi-Meltas anyway. With the singular exception of Sternguard. And, if you do it right, they don't get any benefit from Vulkan anyway.

Sooo... what you need to do 'right' with S. to make twin-linking not-benefit, eh? :smalltongue:

I'm very curious, as with Vulkan/Kantor Sternguard are the best source of units benefiting from TL weapons :smallwink:

Also, citing *chan to back up your argument, is also not a good idea.

I don't see any mention of *chan in there, merely a note he borrowed one character to make a point with an actual rule.

hamishspence

2010-09-24, 09:42 AM

Wasn't there an FAQ that said some weapons not on the list are still close enough to count for Vulkan's ability?

Like Incinerators, from Grey Knights.

Zorg

2010-09-24, 09:46 AM

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Images/FW/ts9sm.jpg

Aieeeee!!!!!

Necron Tomb Stalker (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/News/Necron_Tomb_Stalker.html), from teh Frog Wurld.

Also, Grot Mega Tank (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/News/Grot_Mega_Tank.html).

dsmiles

2010-09-24, 09:51 AM

Aieeeee!!!!!

Necron Tomb Stalker (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/News/Necron_Tomb_Stalker.html), from teh Frog Wurld.

Also, Grot Mega Tank (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/News/Grot_Mega_Tank.html).

Sweet. Too bad I don't play Necrons (yet).

Tren

2010-09-24, 09:57 AM

Wasn't there an FAQ that said some weapons not on the list are still close enough to count for Vulkan's ability?

Like Incinerators, from Grey Knights.

You're thinking of the rule for the Avatar, which the FAQ says also includes Incinerators and Inferno Pistols. There's nothing that extends Vulkan's Chapter Tactics beyond what's listed in his entry.

Aieeeee!!!!!

Necron Tomb Stalker (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/News/Necron_Tomb_Stalker.html), from teh Frog Wurld.

It's not nearly as bad as the Caestus Assault Ram, but that seems like a steal for it's points. To see a model that sexy on the board though, I'd put up with it.

Edit: Eh, on second thought it is closer to a Trygon in ability than I first thought.

Closet_Skeleton

2010-09-24, 04:52 PM

Edit: Eh, on second thought it is closer to a Trygon in ability than I first thought.

Trygons aren't t7. That can be a big differance.

They're also not immune to freakin' poisoned weapons, making them a monstrous creature that's specifically invulnerable to things supposed to counter it.

It also gets double the charging bonus and hit and run.

Will still go down to krak missiles and lascannons though.

I had a battle against a friend of mine who used to collect Blood Angels in 2nd/early 3rd edition but mostly just bought whatever was cool and didnt actually own a rulebook. Finding that his random collection of models was actually somehow a legal 2000 point army, I decided to use my terrible tyranid army against him.

His army:

HQ
Dante
Command squad with plasma gun, power axe and chapter banner

Elites
Brother Corbulo

6 Terminators with heavy flamer

Chaplain

Troops
9 deathcompany with a plasma pistol, chainwords and bolt guns
Landraider with hunter killer and storm bolter

5 scouts with bolt pistols,

Fast Attack
Baal Predator with assault cannon and heavy flamer sponsons

Baal Predator with Flamestorm cannon (actually a helhound he wouldn't be able to use otherwise)

Heavy Support
Dreadnought with heavy flamer and assault cannon

We roll pitched battle annihilation, which makes it kind of easy for him and also means that he actually might be able to win.

He wins for who goes first and lets me go first so I can remind him how to play a turn.

I put my raveners on one side and the rest of my army; Old One Eye, a Hive Tyrant, a zoanthrope and 2 units of warriors behind a unit of termagaunts on the other side. 1 unit of genestealers outflank and the other two infiltrate.

He puts his flamestorm baal and his dread on one side opposite my raveners, his termanators and corbulo in the center and his other baal, command squad and land raider (with chaplain and death company) up against the bulk of my force.

Then he manages to win for infiltrators and puts his scouts in the middle on top of a building, meaning the genestealers I sent to support the raveners had to infiltrate inside my deployment zone. The other unit deployed just in front of the termagaunts.

Turn 1

I'm tyranids, I can't do much more than charge forwards. I fire a few heavy weapons, but only manage to kill a scout with a warrior's venom cannon. Feel no pain ensures that my warrior's barbed strangler and tyrant's venom cannon bounce off.

Dante sees the massive horde of genestealers in front of him and lets the deathcompany out of the dark adamantine box he was hiding them in. Together they charge forwards and wipe out the genestealers with the help of supporting fire from a baal predator.

The land raider, which didn't have to move, fires all its guns at the zoanthrope and vapourises it.

The termanators and dreadnought head forwards and shoot at the raveners, who suffer but a single wound due to cover. A baal speeds towards the genestealers supporting the raveners but doesn't get enough range to kill more than 1.

Turn 2
I roll a success for my reserves and a unit of genestealers outflank straight into his deathcompany. A unit of tyranid warriors armed with bonesword and lashwhip join the fray and together the deathcompany are butchered, leaving the chaplain by himself.

The termagaunts charge at Dante and manage to tie him up despite only two models surviving. (I forgot that Dante has hit and run so couldn't tell my opponent this)

However I forget to charge my genestealers into that baal or use my raverners, leaving them vulnerable.

There's not much Dante can do with two termagaunts tying him up and there's nothing the chaplain can do with three warriors and 16 genestealers mobbing him. There's also not much a baal predator can do when everyone nearby is in combat, so it fires its assault cannon into old one eye and deals a single wound. However its cousin baal is able to roast 7 genestealers and the dreadnought manages to kill another 3 with its flamer and assault cannon.

The land raider remembers that its role is to kill big things, not wimpy things with giant brains, and nukes old one eye with its lascannons and hunter killer.

Corbulo leads his termanator brethren against the raveners and while he fluffs his attacks, a light poke from a power first turns out to be all it takes to kill a ravener. In the rest of the combat phase Dante finishes off the gaunts and consolidates backwards while the chaplain manages to survive on one wound, despite not killing a single enemy. The dreadnought finds itself just in range of the genestealers and charges in, only to miss with all its attacks and get torn apart by the broodlord, killing two genestealers in the explosion.

Turn 3.
My Hive tyrant isn't in range of the land raider and my warriors and genestealers are all locked in combat with a chaplain, so I send him after the baal predator, knowing he can almost certainly take it down. This however leaves Dante unoccupied.

My few surviving genestealers on the other side of the board charge the other baal as they should have last turn and bring it down.

My rending claw and devourer warriors, who were previously taking pot shots at scouts find that they have termantors on their doorstep. Knowing they need serious luck to win, they charge anyway and are butchered taking a single terminator with them.

Finally I manage to kill that chaplain, but its possibly too late as my hardest hitting units have spent a turn tied up.

Dante finds himself faced with the unpleasant option of charging his command squad into 16 genestealers or 3 lash whip and bonesword warriors. Undaunted, he flies over the genestealers and fires his inferno pistol (missing before Corbulo's reroll retcons reality), killing one.

Corbulo and the termanators find themselves with nothing to kill, so they head towards Dante and his command squad.

The land raider fires its lascannons, but only manages to wound the hive tyrant once, its hunter killer already spent.

Dante charges, the lash whips tying his warriors up and allowing the tyranids to cut down everyone but him and his standard bearer. Thankfully for him he is able to deal the 4 wounds necessary to kill the remaining two warriors (the chaplain did deal 2 wounds to them already at one point or another). Rolling a 4 to consolidate, Dante and his comrade manage to climb up a nearby ladder and plant their banner on the high groundl.

Turn 4
I find myself with nothing but a Hive tyrant and two units of genestealers left, while he has a land raider, corbulo, dante and a full unit of termanators (plus 2 scouts, but they're hiding). I figure that as long as I can kill Dante and the land raider this turn I'll be safe before his termanotors catch up to my main force.

The Hive Tyrant charges forwards with his bone sword and manages to penetrate the land raider three times, rolling a 5 on the damage table with all of them. The small unit of 3 genestealer straglers with their brood lord charge the termanators and are able to kill one before dying.

16 Genestealers charge at Dante, but due to the difficult terrain only 4 get on to the high ground and only 6 are able to attack. Dante and the honour guard manage to kill 4 before Dante suffers a wound and the brave standard bearer is dragged down to his death. I then roll an 11 for my break test, and Dante, with his even initiative, manages to roll a 6 to catch me while I roll a 1, butchering my entire squad as they try to climb up to eat him.

Dante now found himself alone, with a hive tyrant between him and his nearest allies. Nether the less, his jump pack was enough to join his brother corbulo and the first company veterans.

Turn 5.

All I now had was my Hive tyrant. I had a decent chance of killing all his termantors in one turn and a decent chance of killing a pair of S4 to 5 special characters, but I couldn't do both.

I also turned out to be out of assault range, so all I could to was move into his charge range, hit him with paroxysm and watch my venom cannon bounce off ceramite.

The blood angels charged, right into my lash whip. The Hive tyrant swung its bonesword around itself and cut three terminators down. But the remaining termantor swung its fist into the tyrant's chitinous bulk and caused 2 wounds.

Turn 6.
It would only take 1 wound to kill my Hive Tyrant, but if I could only kill that termanator I had a decent change of surviving against a S4 power weapon and a S5 rending weapon. Either way a 6 would kill me. I decided to throw an attack against each of my three assailants and mananged to cut down the termanator a wound dante. Dante's will was enough to force his old body to withstand the bonesword's deadly power, and he passed his leadership check to not die.

In the end, Dante rolled his impressive number of attacks against my Hive Tyrant and rolled the single necessary 6 required. At last, the tyrant fell down dead and Dante and Corbulo found themselves the sole surviving people on the battlefield save for the 2 scouts who had failed to do anything the whole game, never getting down from the top floor of their building.

So yeah, my tyranid army truly sucks.

Though we did then find out that I should have had a trygon and he should have had lemartes, so it was more of a 1750 point game.

If we get to play a game again he'll probably borrow my Blood Angels troop choices do he can have a proper army.

Cheesegear

2010-09-24, 05:36 PM

There, it's explicitly stated that's two weapons in one, and one happens to have precise name needed for Vulkan's bonus. No gimmicks required.

No. No it isn't. RAW, you're firing the Combi-Weapon every time. You're explicitly firing 'the Bolter, or the secondary weapon.' At no point, in the rules section of the weapon, does it say "This fires as/like a Meltagun."

Even in the example, it says that 'a Combi-Plasma can, of course, Rapid Fire." So, apparently, when you fire 'the secondary weapon' on a Combi-Melta, you're not firing a Meltagun, you're firing 'the secondary weapon on a Combi-Melta'.

I can see why RAW, a TO would disallow it. But it would make him very, very unpopular. Not that it matters because Combi-Meltas are kind of crap with one, singular exception, which don't need Twin-Linking anyway.

You take Vulkan for fixing Multi-Meltas and Flamers, and for stacking Heavy Flamers. Thunder Hammers, Meltaguns (and Combi-Meltas) are not what Vulkan is for.

Incidentally, RAWdiots managed to bar one weapon from receiving Vulkan's bonus, that is, ironically, his own Gauntlet of the Forge, as it's not a heavy flamer, it merely fires like one.

Actually, if you swap your rulings for these two, you're correct. Because the rules explicitly say "It fires as a Heavy Flamer." it would therefore, fire as if it were a Heavy Flamer and be subject to Vulkan's ruling.

Sooo... what you need to do 'right' with S. to make twin-linking not-benefit, eh? :smalltongue:

Volume.

I'm very curious, as with Vulkan/Kantor Sternguard are the best source of units benefiting from TL weapons :smallwink:

If you can't kill something with 8 Combi-Meltas (or more), making them Twin-Linked isn't going to help. Like Vulkan with Hammernators. It's one of the greatest sources of overkill (inefficiency, waste of points, etc.) in the entire game. Vulkanators are better off with Lightning Claws, with one or two Hammers thrown in 'just because'.

crazedloon

2010-09-26, 06:15 AM

Some real Dark Eldar news and its all drool worthy

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1390421a_2DE_Archon.jpg
love the wraithbone sword and the slaneeshy look to him.
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1390422a_3DE_Lelith.jpg
was hoping this was a picture of a wych but even more interestingly the pic is named Lelith so my favorite girl is back and looking better than ever
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1390426a_4DE_Warrior.jpg
now I love this model because it holds to the same lines body wise as the old models but looks so very nice without a goofy head and the rifle is fantastic
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1390424a_5DE_Wych.jpg
thought this was a mandrake at first but it is the new wych model :smallconfused: it seems I shall have to reserve my judgment on the wyches until I can see a whole unit.
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1390425a_6DE_Incubus.jpg
The big guys themeselves look great but I don't like that new weapon but for the rest of the model I can suck it up :smalltongue:
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1390419a_7DE_Reaver.jpg
I love this reaver and how it looks more in line with a corrupted version of the eldar jetbike as opposed to a whole new creation
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1390420a_8DE_Raider.jpg
my least favorite model spoiled thus far and thats becuase the sail in the middle is just so weird and out of place. I really want to get my hands on the kit to see if I want to convert to the new raiders or just scavenge some parts to modify my current ones
---------------------

Overall my pocket is seeming lighter as I know GW has struck a direct line to my wallet yet again :smallsigh:

Razaele

2010-09-26, 07:46 AM

Speaking of Dark Eldar, I have a match against a Dark Eldar player in a couple of days. I've never really fought Dark Eldar. Again, I'll be using Vanilla marines, and it will be a 500 point battle. Does anyone have any advice for me? :smallbiggrin:

lord_khaine

2010-09-26, 08:09 AM

At the same time, i have a couple of questions regarding fighting hordes of orcs, what targets should i make it my priority to kill first?

Regarding Tyranids, as i understand there i should focus down the synapse creatures first?

Zorg

2010-09-26, 09:52 AM

Wytch unit. Box of ten, six female:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_tm4GpN6sSfQ/TJ8bG2730hI/AAAAAAAAAyI/JNqalTgbPMg/s1600/DSC01318.JPG

Reavers:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_tm4GpN6sSfQ/TJ8a__XOYKI/AAAAAAAAAx4/te6JjCBqeu4/s1600/DSC01313.JPG

New Raider:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_tm4GpN6sSfQ/TJ8bDgNq7yI/AAAAAAAAAyA/rsTifplIR3U/s1600/DSC01316.JPG

Harlequins are in the codex too. Advance Orders start on the 5th of October.

We've also got upcoming from Forge World:

Phantom Titan

Land Raider Achilles - multi-melta sponsons and rotary cannon thunderfire cannon (!) in the hull

New Aspect Warriors

Some seriously cool eldar tanks that aren't based on the Falcon hull!

By Fraggle on Warsser:

Hi all. I know it's not de related but whilst I'm waiting for the fw seminar thought I post what I chatted to will Hayes and Warwick about IA11. In addition to the vehicles seen there will be new aspect warriors but this will be addressed in the seminar. Warwick did say that they are looking at doing cadian upgrade kits for winter fighting ( boots, gloves, face protection and googles) and also tank upgrade kits (air intakes, snow ploughs etc) These will be to go with the plastic cadian kits but he did say that vahallens may be looked at in the future in the same way as elysians. One last think is that the space wolves will be a whole great company. He wouldn't say which one but did confirm the lord was going to be modelled and ruled out a couple. It was hinted that it may be a mounted model..... The deathwolf perhaps

By Philbrad2

OK just left the FW seminar

IA11 definitely SW/Cadians/Elysians vs Eldar.

New aspect for the Eldar - Shadow spectres, think jumpacks with mini prism cannons which can combine beams for added firepower. Models are stunning.

Nothing on the Wolves it wil be a ice planet set and there will be cold weather IG stuff.

More to follow.

Lots and lots of pics here (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=10319). More here as well (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=10322).

edit: FW Ironclads:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_EQyEQlhTXGo/TJ8kJfCwHvI/AAAAAAAAAo4/ofkt3rsgkcQ/s1600/DSC01321.JPG

Incomp

2010-09-26, 10:39 AM

Wow, those dark eldar look great. Now I don't know what my next project will have to be...

crazedloon

2010-09-26, 11:46 AM

:smalleek:

You have made my day Zorg thanks for the great photos I would kill for a glance at that codex. Also HArlequins in the codex make me happy for fluff reasons :smallbiggrin:

I much prefer the rest of those wyches to the one I posted

lord_khaine

2010-09-26, 12:06 PM

Harlequins are in the codex too. Advance Orders start on the 5th of October.

Aaaaargg! are those degenerate bastards getting harlequins as well?

Oh well, i am a bit confused about the propper use for them anyway, Banshee's seems to be better at killing marines, and scorpions seems to be better against orcs.

Wraith

2010-09-26, 01:29 PM

Oh well, i am a bit confused about the propper use for them anyway, Banshee's seems to be better at killing marines, and scorpions seems to be better against orcs.

That's what I've been saying for months. They don't have as many Power Weapons as Banshees, they have less attacks than Scorpions, they're slower than Shining Spears and their Invulnerable Save isn't as good as a Seer Council.
The only reason that you would take Harlequins over any of those other options, is if you were dedicated unto death to your thematic Harlequin army. I couldn't care less is Eldar can or can't have them any more. :smalltongue:

As for the Dark Eldar models: very nice, but that paint scheme in the first set is awful. I've never believed that all evil models have to be painted BLACKBLACKANDMOREBLACK, but those wishy-washy pastel highlights certainly don't strike fear into my heart like they should :smallconfused:

Also, loving the sound of a new Aspect style. How they differ thematically from Warp Spiders except just being 'better' (all Aspect Warriors embody one 'side' of the War God's armoury, remember) I'm not too sure, but I expect I'll be having lots of them none the less. :smallbiggrin:

Fcannon

2010-09-26, 02:10 PM

Note the finished Codex in the display case. I've heard rumors it's been done for a while now, pretty impressive that there haven't been any leaks.

Wraith

2010-09-26, 02:22 PM

After what it is supposed to have cost Games Workshop after their last few books were leaked onto torrent sites, it's not as surprising as you'd think. Even Blackshirts in GW stores no longer get told what the next month's releases are going to be until a few days prior, and that isn't even mentioning the debacle over the botched preorders for Space Hulk.

The most recent Warhammer Armies: Skaven is supposed to have been the most prolifically pirated that GW has ever produced, followed by Blood Angels. It's probably not as bad as they say it is - I personally endeavor to buy all books that I own models for out of respect and necessity - but each release alone probably lost thousands to piracy.

Trixie

2010-09-26, 02:45 PM

Note the finished Codex in the display case. I've heard rumors it's been done for a while now, pretty impressive that there haven't been any leaks.

Only a few hundred :smallsigh:

After what it is supposed to have cost Games Workshop after their last few books were leaked onto torrent sites, it's not as surprising as you'd think. Even Blackshirts in GW stores no longer get told what the next month's releases are going to be until a few days prior, and that isn't even mentioning the debacle over the botched preorders for Space Hulk.

The most recent Warhammer Armies: Skaven is supposed to have been the most prolifically pirated that GW has ever produced, followed by Blood Angels. It's probably not as bad as they say it is - I personally endeavor to buy all books that I own models for out of respect and necessity - but each release alone probably lost thousands to piracy.

What? What piracy? :smallconfused:

Sure, people download books, but then, is there anyone who would be allowed to play in tourney, hell, in actual shop, using Codex on laptop? They would throw his ass out.

The only way I see pirated Codex might be used for something, are casual games played in someone's house (but then, they could use any rules they wanted), by people reading other Codices to argue about fluff on the net or over-serious tourney players memorizing books his opponents use, or by someone who wants to try an army usung a copy of Codex and some counts-as minis before he dumps a few hundred into some army he might not like.

All in all, since 99% of these cases would not translate into sales anyway, and since GH stated that cost of the Codes only covers actual printing, and they profit on minis, I fail to see "losses" of any kind here. Too much RIAA, methinks.

Of course, if there are good arguments why there are losses, go ahead and shoot.

---

On a side note - this just in - Chaos Space Marines (so called "Blackshields") serving in Deathwatch - awesome or the dumbest thing ever? :smalltongue:

Also, I was right - while DW mostly operates in kill teams, there are actual cases where DW Fortresses concentrate their efforts on one threat and throw dozens of kill teams geared with anything up to columns of Land Raiders and fleets of Strike Cruisers on a single planet. My dream of full DW army is now closer than ever :smallbiggrin:

Closet_Skeleton

2010-09-26, 02:49 PM

More Dark Eldar pics taken by moi:

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb193/Closet_Skeleton/darkeldarlelith-1.jpg

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb193/Closet_Skeleton/darkeldarincubij-1.jpg

Incubi

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb193/Closet_Skeleton/darkeldarbikes.jpg

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb193/Closet_Skeleton/darkeldarsprue3j.jpg

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb193/Closet_Skeleton/darkeldarsprue2j.jpg

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb193/Closet_Skeleton/darkeldarsprue1j.jpg

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb193/Closet_Skeleton/darkeldarprototypej.jpg

Forgeworld also has a new land raider varient, the Achiles, with twin linked multi-melta sponsons, even heavier armour and a hull mounted thunderfire cannon.

Except the supposed thunderfire cannon looks like a lame gatling gun.

The grot mega tank is also excellant.

Eldar are getting some cute little mini-vehicles called Hornets.

The Forge World command squad conversion kits look pretty awesome.

Trixie

2010-09-26, 03:19 PM

Forgeworld also has a new land raider varient, the Achiles, with twin linked multi-melta sponsons, even heavier armour and a hull mounted thunderfire cannon.

Except the supposed thunderfire cannon looks like a lame gatling gun.

Forge world? As in actual site? Lies.

The only pictures I was able to find were on Whineseer. *cough*. So, since you're posting pictures of DE and Eldar, let me post this one model, new LR variant:

http://www.warseer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=97464&d=1285490902

http://www.warseer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=97472&d=1285494462

http://www.warseer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=97473&d=1285518222

http://www.warseer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=97474&d=1285518222

http://www.warseer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=97477&d=1285520821

http://www.warseer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=97486&d=1285521006

So... they finally bolted mudplates every modern tank has, a few extra bits, and... Well, I imagined something more powerful.

Also, painted Necronhoax:

http://www.warseer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=97466&d=1285490902

And a Chapter change that will force everyone in the antipodes to hammer their models as they're not longer legal :smalltongue:

http://www.warseer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=97488&d=1285521006

Closet_Skeleton

2010-09-26, 03:39 PM

Forge world? As in actual site? Lies.

I went to Gamesday. I don't care about the website and never said I was talking about it.

So... they finally bolted mudplates every modern tank has, a few extra bits, and... Well, I imagined something more powerful.

Land Raider Crusaders have always had those. They just have grenade launchers in front.

The Achilles has no front ramp. Which would logically increase the armour a bit, since moving parts are always a flaw.

And a Chapter change that will force everyone in the antipodes to hammer their models as they're not longer legal :smalltongue:

Good job that's not how the hobby works.

Trixie

2010-09-26, 03:41 PM

I went to Gamesday. I don't care about the website and never said I was talking about it.

Ah, your quote seemed to indicate you were talking about the site. Especially seeing it has GD section.

Ironically, they managed to mix the labels in there, or pretty much four most distinctive models.

Wraith

2010-09-26, 03:56 PM

What? What piracy? :smallconfused:

If I wanted to be sarcastic, I would simply respond: "Piracy: To acquire something without paying for it, in violation of copyright law (which is pretty much an accurate description of any downloaded book)" :smalltongue:
I am not, however, wishing to be sarcastic, so hopefully you'll continue reading instead of merely dismissing me as rude. :smallwink:

Before I start: This is just the story as it was told to me - I make no claim that it is entirely accurate, hence why I said "supposed to" 3 or 4 times :smalltongue:

The theory is that people wouldn't go into a store and look at a new Codex, where they could be hassled by Staff and tempted by shiny new models - they would instead download their Codex, read it, and decide that they were or were not going to buy it.
The former were probably going to buy it anyway, so GW gains nothing. The latter, however, won't visit GW Stores and as such GW loses out on the chance to sell them stuff.

A bit too cynical to be entirely true, I think, but it has a small amount of merit - like any business, GW makes sales based on what it advertises, and if it they can't advertise thoroughly then they may well lose sales. Again, as I said previously, it's probably not as bad as GW makes it out to be, but I believe that it is plausible.

Sure, people download books, but then, is there anyone who would be allowed to play in tourney, hell, in actual shop, using Codex on laptop? They would throw his ass out.

The only way I see pirated Codex might be used for something, are casual games played in someone's house (but then, they could use any rules they wanted), by people reading other Codices to argue about fluff on the net or over-serious tourney players memorizing books his opponents use, or by someone who wants to try an army usung a copy of Codex and some counts-as minis before he dumps a few hundred into some army he might not like.

That's all it takes. GW is a capitalist company that's in the business to make money don't forget, and whether or not you or I think it significant, they want everyone to purchase a Codex; even if it is those casual Gamers who just want to settle an argument at home.
There are far more casual gamers than their are Tournament players, after all, and GW can only force the latter to buy their books. The rest is a market that they cannot directly control with TO's and copyright laws, so you can't blame them for trying to 'guilt trip' the rest into giving them their money if other tactics have failed.

On the other hand, in British law you are allowed to make photocopies of a Codex that you own for personal use only, so that you can keep your actual purchased property safe from theft or damage. If someone turns up at a GW Store with just enough of a "photocopied" Codex to play a game and claims to own the Codex at home, there's precious little that the staff can do to prove otherwise.

Any piracy, no matter how small, results in one less book that GW hasn't sold to a customer. That sort of thing makes capitalists sad.

All in all, since 99% of these cases would not translate into sales anyway, and since GH stated that cost of the Codes only covers actual printing, and they profit on minis, I fail to see "losses" of any kind here. Too much RIAA, methinks.

Of course, if there are good arguments why there are losses, go ahead and shoot.

Firstly, that's a made-up statistic, so I won't dignify it with a sensible response. Sufficed to say: piracy on any scale will hurt actual sales, and that is true of any business be it DVDs, 'designer' clothing or books.

Secondly, GW still has to pay to produce and print the Codices whether they sell them or not. If that book then sits on a shelf unbought, GW is financially at a loss because they do not recoup the cost of that process until money changes hands.
Yes, you're right in saying that they don't make a profit on a Codex, but as long as that book is still on a shelf in a store it means that GW has spent £15 on making it that they're not getting back from a customer. Until sold on, Codices are a financial liability.

Losing sales is not the same as not making a profit.
Everytime someone downloads a .pdf with the intention of using it instead of buying a real Codex (I must stress that part, as I have no problem with people downloading a Codex for a army that they will never intend to play and WOULD buy it later on if they changed their mind), it's one more book that GW has had to pay for that they aren't going to get payment in return.

And, as I said, GW is a capitalist venture, and they want to make a profit.
Anything they make that they don't receive some kind of payment for, whether it breaks even on the production cost or gathers a large profit, deprives them of that goal. It might not sound like a big problem to you are I, but we aren't the ones with stock-holders to appease and investments and copyrights to protect.

Once again, I stress that the situation probably isn't as dire as Games Workshop makes it out to be - they want my money, and if they have to guilt-trip me into giving it to them, then so be it :smallwink: - but book piracy does exist, and piracy of any kind deprives the creator of income in some fashion. This is an irrefutable fact, even if it is only happenig on a small scale.
That torrent sites keep count of the number of times their files - GW's books - are downloaded, and that count has proven unexpectedly high compared to previous releases, suggests that more people are downloading. Even if we make up a deliberately small number and pretend that only 0.1% of downloaders aren't going to go on and buy the book - 0.1% of 5,000 is much less than 0.1% of 5,000,000.

Piracy of GW books, on whatever scale and for whatever reason, is on the rise, and GW are determined to protect their investments in whatever way they can.

Oslecamo

2010-09-26, 05:10 PM

Also, Grot Mega Tank (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/News/Grot_Mega_Tank.html).

This thing puts the IG punisher tank to shame. Put big shootas on all turrets and you're firing 15 BS3 S5 AP 5 shots(six of them twin-linked) for 105 points! Bery shooty. Very orky. But still needs MOAR DAKKA!:smallbiggrin:

Alternatively, five rokkit launchas for 165 points, two of them twin linked as well.

And it moves 2d6 while firing all weapons, ignoring hard terrain, re-rolling difficult ones and having a 5+ inv save? :smalleek:

Fcannon

2010-09-26, 05:31 PM

Only a few hundred :smallsigh:

I meant leak in the sense of someone scanning it and throwing it up on torrent sites, which to my knowledge hasn't happened yet

Arcanoi

2010-09-26, 06:08 PM

This thing puts the IG punisher tank to shame. Put big shootas on all turrets and you're firing 15 BS3 S5 AP 5 shots(six of them twin-linked) for 105 points! Bery shooty. Very orky. But still needs MOAR DAKKA!:smallbiggrin:

Alternatively, five rokkit launchas for 165 points, two of them twin linked as well.

And it moves 2d6 while firing all weapons, ignoring hard terrain, re-rolling difficult ones and having a 5+ inv save? :smalleek:

Why take Big Shootas when you could take Grotzookas? That thing is essentially an entire squadron of Killa Kans at a 50% discount.

Lycan 01

2010-09-26, 07:41 PM

On a side note - this just in - Chaos Space Marines (so called "Blackshields") serving in Deathwatch - awesome or the dumbest thing ever? :smalltongue:

Also, I was right - while DW mostly operates in kill teams, there are actual cases where DW Fortresses concentrate their efforts on one threat and throw dozens of kill teams geared with anything up to columns of Land Raiders and fleets of Strike Cruisers on a single planet. My dream of full DW army is now closer than ever :smallbiggrin:

Where did you get this info from? Do you mean in the new Deathwatch RPG? How on earth does that work? :smallconfused:

Cheesegear

2010-09-27, 02:09 AM

Zorg

2010-09-27, 02:30 AM

More Dark Eldar pics taken by moi:

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb193/Closet_Skeleton/darkeldarsprue3j.jpg

Looking on that sprue pic, at the legs on the front, does that look like a harlequin style back mounted grenade launcher to anyone else?

Edit: It looks like the Imperial Armour schedule is:

Badab War 1 (soon)
Warhammer Forge
Badab War 2 for Christmas, hopefully with the Phantom (near the £600 mark)
Imperial Armour 1 re-release
Eldar vs Space Wolves

There's also going to be a second painting book, lots of details on weathering Ork vehicles.
Working on more Necon stuff, but still very early or hush-hush.

Harlies in DE will be exactly the same as in CE - same stats, points etc. Seems to rule out Solitaires and Great Harlequins, but they could be added in.

Closet_Skeleton

2010-09-27, 06:16 AM

I'm guessing the Dark Eldar Battleforce will be 1 unit of wyches, 1 unit of warriors and a raider. Probably some jetbikes too, but maybe not 5.

It would be hilarious if it still has the trees.

Incomp

2010-09-27, 06:58 AM

Well, sorry team, there's no Battle Report today. Got another exam, like, tomorrow. So, I've got to gear up for that.

What I can tell you though, is that my one-two punch list runs perfectly. However, it does only work once. Once my opponent knows what's going on, it doesn't work. Makes it perfect for a tournament though.

1. Shrike and Assault Marines (because Vanguard suck) Infiltrate as close as they can.
2. On the first turn, Kor'Sarro and Sternguard drop down in a Drop Pod and blow something away.
3. If my opponent has any sense at all, they'll Assault the Sternguard. If they don't, they're either playing Tau or Guard, or are idiots. Anyway, if my opponent knows anything about Sternguard, they'll Assault them.
4. Kor'Sarro uses Hit & Run. Gets the Sternguard out of combat.

My turn;
5. Shrike and Assault Marines jump over the Drop Pod, or sideways, or whatever.
6. Kor'Sarro, as an Independent Character, leaves the Sternguard, and joins the Assault Marines.
7. Sternguard get another round of Shooting due to having Hit & Run and getting out of combat.

8. Assault Marines, Kor'Sarro and Shrike Assault something. Yes. Shrike with Furious Assault. Something gets brutalised.

It goes off without a hitch. People don't know WTF is going on. Unfortunately, the rest of my army kind of sucks, and after the first two turns, kind of petres out pretty quickly. You guys should write the list for me.

Shrike
Kor'Sarro - 160 Points. Not on Bike. :smallfrown:
Sternguard (x10; x8 CM/x2 HF, Drop Pod) - 335 Points
Assault Marines (7+, to take hits from shooting)

The rest is you guys' choice. Go for 1750. If you can make the Assault Marines something just as fast, you could do that too. I would've gone with Bikes, but, they're a bit more expensive and can't climb buildings.

Huh. That list is evil and horrible. I love it.

Speaking of Vanguard from like, a week ago; How do people like Legion of the Damned? They're cheaper than regular Terminators, have the same invulnerable of Hammernators, and, have about the same ranged fire output as regular Terminators as well. Relentless Multi-Meltas for winners? Or not?
I don't mean 'on paper' (we went over 'on paper' with Vanguard, and they're terrible), has anybody actually used them?

Never used them myself, not a SM player. I've seen them used, and I wasn't terribly impressed, however. My opponent basically said: "Ha! I have relentless multi-meltas!" I said: "Ha! I have bloodletters!" I laughed more. What's better, that 3+ invuln kept them in the fight to die in their opponent's assault phase.

Now, since my CSM army is coming off the ground now;

Is there any reason to use regular Chaos Space Marine squads over any of the cult units? 'They're cheaper.' is not a reason, unless you mean, by, like, a lot.

They're cheaper. Seriously, expensive troops choices are a serious problem in CSM. A fully kitted out Noise Marine squad is pushing 300 points, and you aren't getting your points' worth otherwise. (Unless you're doing that stupid blastmaster spam tactic someone mentioned a while back, but get havocs, seriously.)

Anyway, another major reason I don't use Cult units is thematic; I run a tzeentch/undivided list, and Thousand Sons don't seem to fit in. (They are, however, really fun.) Then again TSons are about the same price as a full CSM squad with upgrades.

How do CSMs deal with Monstrous Creatures?
I came up with Havocs. But, You can't really spam them (say, against TMC lists, trip Wraithlords, dual-Princes, etc) because then you lose Obliterators, Demon-Vindicators and Defilers for against pretty much everything else.

First of all, you just mentioned dual princes as a spam list. Last time I checked, that was a CSM army.

But yeah, for not too many points, you can get two Daemon Princes in your army, and then add a Greater Daemon. (which are a steal at 100 points.) You then have a really solid three monstrous creatures in your list. Daemon Princes can beat much of their opposition as long as they have any mark other than Khorne, and greater daemons have a better profile for cheaper.

If you don't like that idea, havocs work. Defilers don't, really, but you can throw them at an MC and hope they get an attack in before they roll an explosion. I3 hurts. Actually, they work just fine on carnifexes, as long as you soften it up a wound first. And a defiler, conveniently, has a battle cannon.

Ogremindes

2010-09-27, 07:05 AM

Some real Dark Eldar news and its all drool worthy

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1390421a_2DE_Archon.jpg

I would've though that guy was a Dark Elf if it weren't for the sword.

Winterwind

2010-09-27, 07:16 AM

Is there any reason to use regular Chaos Space Marine squads over any of the cult units? 'They're cheaper.' is not a reason, unless you mean, by, like, a lot.Short answer: No, except for fluff reasons.

Long answer: No, unless you have something very specific and unusual in mind. Regular CSMs may work better if you intend to do one of the following things:
- use them for long range fire support and absolutely need that heavy weapon. I'm not entirely sure under what circumstances you might want one of the heavy weapons CSMs can take over a Blastmaster, but there.
- want to take advantage of the upper squad size limit being 20 for CSM, rather than 10; since the icon has a fixed cost no matter how many models it affects, if you slap one onto a squad of 20, you get its effects for a ton of models. 20 CSMs with a Khorne icon have the same number of attacks as 20 Berserkers (albeit with WS4 instead of 5, and without Furious Charge), but cost 100 points less. So, if you go for really big squads, you may get units that perform similarly under many circumstances but are a lot cheaper.
- need something that is really general purpose or want that +1A or +(1)T without the disadvantages that come with them. Note that except for Noise Marines, the cult troops are always worse in some regard (albeit usually a fairly minor one) than CSMs (while being a lot better in some other regard, of course). Berserkers have no bolters. Rubric Marines have no close combat weapons and bolt pistols. Plague Marines have worse initiative. Noise Marines are strictly superior to CSMs, but are either a lot more expensive (if you give them sonic weaponry) or are still a fair bit more expensive while having only +1I and Fearless as advantages (and you can give the +1I to CSMs, too, while still staying cheaper than Noise Marines). Also, certain combinations are not possible outside of CSMs - for instance, if you want dual meltaguns, you can take Plague Marines, and if you want 2 attacks base, you can take Berserkers, but if you want 2 attacks base and dual meltaguns on the same unit, you have to take CSMs with an icon of Khorne.

All of the above are highly situational, of course. Generally, cult troops are always preferable. I use some CSMs in my own list, but that's for thematic reasons.

How do CSMs deal with Monstrous Creatures?
I came up with Havocs. But, You can't really spam them (say, against TMC lists, trip Wraithlords, dual-Princes, etc) because then you lose Obliterators, Demon-Vindicators and Defilers for against pretty much everything else.Undivided/Nurgle/Slaanesh Lords. Charging Khornate Berserkers. Dual meltaguns on whatever squads you want that can take them. Chaos Wind/force weapon (or, if you're feeling lucky, Gift of Chaos) from a Sorcerer. Daemon Princes. Or, if you want to be unusual, Possessed Marines.

Closet_Skeleton

2010-09-27, 07:18 AM

Defilers don't, really, but you can throw them at an MC and hope they get an attack in before they roll an explosion. I3 hurts. Actually, they work just fine on carnifexes, as long as you soften it up a wound first. And a defiler, conveniently, has a battle cannon.

I've had a defiler tear my hive tyrant to pieces, so I have to disagree there.

I can see how a wraithlord could beat a defiler with its S10 and high initiative, but most things in the Tyranid list will go down, with Trygons fairing the best.

To kill a Soul Grinder I needed a Hive Tyrant to lash whip it and then Old One Eye (who can kill anything in melee, despite being nonsenically fragile) to do the killing blows.

Cheesegear

2010-09-27, 07:27 AM

Huh. That list is evil and horrible. I love it.

It is, and it isn't. I mean, those first two turns are simply brutal to my opponent. And, unless he's played against the list before, there's not really a lot he can do about it. In fact, even if he has, there's not a lot to do about it.

The Sternguard are there to be Assaulted, and the Drop Pod should be blocking LoS and move/assault lines towards the Assault Marines (which the AMs just ignore when it's their turn to move). There's not a lot people can really do about it.

It's just that...The rest of my army isn't anything to write home. Those two units and two special characters eat 900-1000 points of my army. It's a lot of eggs in one basket. I mean, I could run four units of Scouts and a unit of Devastators for 750. But, I mean really, is that what I want to be doing? I already do that with my Fists.

I guess I'm using Shrike's Fleet rules. So, maybe it's a waste if I don't run Combat Scouts (geddit, run Scouts. Shrike. Geddit? I'm terrible)? But, Combat Scouts.../sigh. They're only just better than Bolter Scouts.

Maybe 2 units of 5, with Land Speeder Storms with Assault Cannons.
And 2 units of 10 Sniper Rifles and Missile Launcher?

That could work. I'll run it this week.

Never used them myself, not a SM player. I've seen them used, and I wasn't terribly impressed, however. My opponent basically said: "Ha! I have relentless multi-meltas!" I said: "Ha! I have bloodletters!" I laughed more. What's better, that 3+ invuln kept them in the fight to die in their opponent's assault phase.

I just checked, it's just one Legionanaire can take a Heavy Weapon. Not one per five. And, since they're Relentless and Slow, I can't see any benefit that you would get taking a Heavy Flamer over any of the other options, so why does it cost so much? :smallconfused:

Maybe I'll stick with Sternguard. They suck less. And cost less too. Or, they even cost the same points and kick so much arse it isn't even fair.

They're cheaper. Seriously, expensive troops choices are a serious problem in CSM. A fully kitted out Noise Marine squad is pushing 300 points, and you aren't getting your points' worth otherwise. (Unless you're doing that stupid blastmaster spam tactic someone mentioned a while back, but get havocs, seriously.)

The Blastmaster Spam was me (like it could've been anyone else :smallwink:).

I guess the problem there is 'fully kitted out'. Because of their expense, I've rarely seen people run whole squads with them. Mostly I've seen people use the Gods' number for their units, and those numbers work surprisingly well.

6 Noise Marines? That's all you really need. Blastmasters activate!
7 Plague Marines? Yep. 7 used to be the optimal squad size before Space Marines 4th. (and everything after) changed it to "You must have 10 or you can't be awesome."
8 Berzerkers? More than enough.
9 Thousand Sons? Yep. Pretty much immovable.

Although 9 Sons is a bit much. I see people run 7. Like Plague Marines and everything else in 3rd/4th.

Actually, they work just fine on carnifexes, as long as you soften it up a wound first. And a defiler, conveniently, has a battle cannon.

Actually, they really don't. If the Tyranid player is running his 'fexes properly, they have I4 when they Assault at S10. The Defiler is dead. And because he is running his 'fexes properly, he's got 3.
(Carnifexes don't work in Broods of less than 3. Just like Sentinels).

To kill a Soul Grinder I needed a Hive Tyrant to lash whip it and then Old One Eye (who can kill anything in melee, despite being nonsenically fragile) to do the killing blows.

Just a note; Soul Grinders are way better than Defilers. It's not surprising that's how you had to do it.

hamishspence

2010-09-27, 07:38 AM

Zorg

2010-09-27, 08:04 AM

Awesome summary of the Forge World seminar by Millest on his blog (http://millests.blogspot.com/2010/09/gamesday-uk-2010-more-forgeworld-news.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+MillestsMediocreMeanderings+% 28Millest%27s+Mediocre+Meanderings%29&utm_content=Google+Reader). Some choice points:

* Shadow spectres - have JETpacks rather than jump packs. Two troop choices and a second Aspect to come as well.
* Cosairs - book puts some focus on raids by corsairs and rangers. Upgrade kit likely (helms, weapons etc).
* Exodites - none in IA11. Left until a later date as would need large model set. (please not this is not confirmation just that its out there as a concept)
* Eldar also getting fully enclosed war walkers (for the cold)
* Cadians + Elysians to be involved (with cold weather upgrades as mentioned in my previous posts), Space wolves are the marines, concentrating on one Great Company. Likley to be One SW character and maybe a couple of Eldar.
* General story of IA11 is a eldar colony world which 'put into storage' (deep freeze) and forgotten. Its then discovered by imperium during Great Crusade. There is a small eldar defending force that is destroyed by Space wolves.
10k years later the Eldar rediscover the webway portal to planet but then find that the defending force has been killed and replaced with guard/marines. Series of raids from corsairs/rangers etc before the big craftworld army attacks. Planet is of significant importance as they need to justify the use of the Phantom.

Apparently Badab was going to be one book, but it ended up too long so they chopped it up, thus the short turn-around between vols 1 & 2.

Closet_Skeleton

2010-09-27, 02:06 PM

Old One Eye being fragile may not make much sense for a Carnifex- but it may make sense in the context of the lore. He gets "killed" a lot (but comes back)- plasma pistol shot to the eye, sniper shot to the crater where the eye was, and so on.

He used to be able to regenerate even after he lost all his wounds. Now you just need to deal 4 wounds to kill him.

His fluff is that he can only be taken out by sheer luck. No where in the lore does he die several miles from the enemy after one squad/tank shoots at him.

Zorg

2010-09-27, 03:19 PM

Redesigning 40k for the 21st Century

That's the title of a post on my blog - read part 1 here (http://collegiatitanica.blogspot.com/2010/09/redesigning-40k-for-21st-century.html). Mainly musings and ponderings about how the world has changed, and how 40k has accentuated some parts of itself, but why I think they need to focus on other areas.

Part 2 will have me putting my money where my mouth is, so to speak, and showing what I'm talking about - so part 1 is a little open ended. It'll also have my thoughts on aliens and how this relates to kids playing the game, and getting them to keep playing.

Closet_Skeleton

2010-09-27, 04:10 PM

Oslecamo

2010-09-27, 04:11 PM

That's the title of a post on my blog - [url="http://collegiatitanica.blogspot.com/2010/09/redesigning-40k-for-21st-century.html"]

Some comments on my part:

Sci-Fi is only a small fraction of 40K-Why do most guardsmen look like they were taken from WW I and WW II? Because they were basically taken from WW I and WW II! Just look at the damn land raider! Look at orks! You could copy-pasta them from fantasy and back, switching shields for guns, and nobody would be able to tell the diference!

In a similar note, the stagnation and crippling bureaucracy of the imperium are one of it's main features.

Small numbers for TT's sake-40K fluff is still made for the tabletop. And in the tabletop you have like half a hundred guys. So of course the numbers need to be kept small, because it isn't much fun to play "regiment 478 that did a minuscle war effort when you look at the big picture". And of course it would be impossible to make a proper planet-conquering campaign (like the ones that show up in IA) when you realistically would have to take dozens if not hundreds of locations.

Nope, all planets have just one-two major cities worth talking, with some thousands of defending troops at best, and the million civilians are desprezable.

Dropping nukes on the enemy? Yes good joke. In 40K, nukes are either sent against civilians for the lulz exterminatus, or they fail to work all togheter (cough armagedon cough). That's the only way you can have huge mobs of colored troops charging with pointy sticks across the plains. And heck, did you see anyone drop nukes in Star Wars?

As for the rest, really, you're really taking it seriously, but this is 40K! It is a parody of the 80s medias (like already refered on this thread), not only sci-fi but music, fantasy and others. And that's what actualy gives it a charm that makes it stand on the market!:smallbiggrin:

If your changes were applied then we couldn't have spech merines doing last stands against that ork mobs and 1x1 leader duels on the frontline and all other "rule of awesome" stuff 40K is renowed for.:smallfrown:

crazedloon

2010-09-27, 05:40 PM

hmm looks interesting however (and I will admit to little book reading) some of it seems a little pessimistic as far as the outlook of the game fluff goes.

-notably you bring up the electoos which if we take DH as cannon (which I feel people do) they exist and are even cheap enough for scum to have. The better electrograpts are standard on techpriests. So they have not disappeared entirely.
-DH also talks about weapons being designed upgraded and built (in the case of the myth of limited plasma weapons) so that tech is not so "static"

Why does bulky armor = better armor? I will not try and argue the point of the actual ability of 40k armor but I will point out that our current body armor looks bad when visually compared to a knights armor but kevlar will laugh at a musket fire. So the assumption that your guard needs to be covered head to toe like those pictured is IMHO playing into a current stereo type.

Techpriest coming up with new things also exist they are just the high ups. when you look at an organization as large as the ones in the 40k fluff the "high ups are a small group of people." It is the magoses who make new things since they "understand" how the "spirits" work and therefore are trusted to do it correctly. Those who are not so well versed are the ones who do not invent and instead spend their time chanting at blocks of metal. Also the Mechanicus is split with those who think new things are evil and thus condemn the creation of new things and those who feel it is vitally needed but want to put their stamp on everything new so destroy stuff made by others so they can "invent" it themselves.

The individuals may be devote but that does not mean they need to carry around all the extra symbols and the like (that is what the ecclesiarchy is for) also most people do not have such devot beliefs. {{scrubbed}} And you have varying degrees of faith as well. Why would this change? 40k has its fanatics and its average man nothing odd there :smallconfused:

I will admit the size issue does exist in some ways. However I think you are looking at the numbers incorrectly. When a war for anything in the 40k universe is initiated (except perhaps a mechanicus or SM planet) it is assumed ships full of guard and their equipment is thrown at the problem with little regard for numbers. The SMs are for small actions and taking out "strongholds" not all out war (except when they were used as legions in the actual expansion) and I agree the idea that they can take an entire planet is beyond ridiculous However when an entire planet is a single hive which the enemy wish to keep it is more likely. If I am not mistaken that is similar to what Armageddon had happen since it is a hive world with a few hives and nothing else (thus explaining the "short" war)

I wont say the fluff is perfect but I do not think it is as bad off as you think it is

Cheesegear

2010-09-27, 05:51 PM

hmm looks interesting however (and I will admit to little book reading) some of it seems a little pessimistic as far as the outlook of the game fluff goes.

You mean you aren't pessimistic about the current game fluff, and where it looks like its going? You might be one of the only ones.

Why does bulky armor = better armor?

Did you read something that I didn't? Mass Effect armour was brought up, and that stuff isn't bulky at all. Or, at least no more so than Carapace Armour already is.

And you have varying degrees of faith as well. Why would this change? 40k has its fanatics and its average man nothing odd there :smallconfused:

The problem with 40K and religion, is that the Emperor and the Chaos Gods are real, tangible things. People know for a fact that these...Deities...exist. There should be no doubt, in anyone's mind. If the Ecclesiarchy is as omnipresent as it's stated that it is, then so should Faith be.

I wont say the fluff is perfect but I do not think it is as bad off as you think it is

It's going that way though.

SmartAlec

2010-09-27, 06:01 PM

Cheesegear

2010-09-27, 06:04 PM

It's one thing to know the Emperor existed as a man and exists as a corpse; it's another to believe that he can somehow keep you safe from the alien, the mutant and the heretic, and offer you ineffable aid in times of direst need.

But that's exactly what he does do. Every day. Sure, he eats about ten thousand people a day (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PoweredByAForsakenChild) (don't worry, you don't like those people) to do it, but, he does.

Oslecamo

2010-09-27, 06:09 PM

The problem with 40K and religion, is that the Emperor and the Chaos Gods are real, tangible things. People know for a fact that these...Deities...exist. There should be no doubt, in anyone's mind. If the Ecclesiarchy is as omnipresent as it's stated that it is, then so should Faith be.

Except the key point that the chaos gods feed on your emotions, so the more you think about them, the stronger they become! Even the emprah himself tried to purge all knowledge of the existence of deities to try to starve the chaos gods during his great crusade.

But that's exactly what he does do. Every day. Sure, he eats about a thousand people a day (don't worry, you don't like those people) to do it, but, he does.

And the IG hordes and Imperial Navy and Lords of Terra and the Inquisition and spech merines armies are just for looks, of course?:smallamused:

Not to mention the trillions of casualities ocurring every day on the Imperium acording to Dark Heresy.

crazedloon

2010-09-27, 06:14 PM

Did you read something that I didn't? Mass Effect armour was brought up, and that stuff isn't bulky at all. Or, at least no more so than Carapace Armour already is.
my point was that it does not need a futuristic look to be futuristic. Take my example, a kevlar vest looks like a thick cloth vest not something that can stop a bullet particularly when compared to a knights armor. So someone who is used to knights armor would assume some super metal armor or some super metal to do the same job as a simple vest but the reality is a lot more mundane.

Even more in the same vane a some modern protective vest accepts ceramic plates, why could a future vest not look the same, work the same but use different plate technology (ceremit for example?) why must the vest or breastplate look fancy?

The problem with 40K and religion, is that the Emperor and the Chaos Gods are real, tangible things. People know for a fact that these...Deities...exist. There should be no doubt, in anyone's mind. If the Ecclesiarchy is as omnipresent as it's stated that it is, then so should Faith be.

yes and for the people who believe in gods today (I will not specify since really it does not matter) do not need proof since they have faith but they still choose to show their belief in their own way, indeed in some cases those that show no outward sign of devotion can be or are more religious than those who show outward signs. So I see no reason for this to change and I don't see how your point changes that

But that's exactly what he does do. Every day. Sure, he eats about a thousand people a day (don't worry, you don't like those people) to do it, but, he does.
wait since when? give me an example him actually doing this.

BTW this should all be in the fluff section :smalltongue:

Cheesegear

2010-09-27, 09:03 PM

my point was that it does not need a futuristic look to be futuristic. Take my example, a kevlar vest looks like a thick cloth vest not something that can stop a bullet particularly when compared to a knights armor.

And I think Zorg's point, was that the Guard don't even appear to have Kevlar armour. If we take the standard noob-gun to be the stubber, or auto-pistol, Guardsmen flak armour doesn't even stop that. Perhaps barely.

So I see no reason for this to change and I don't see how your point changes that

I read something completely different in your post. It appeared that you were allowing for the existance of non-believers. Or, possibly even agnostics at the very least. Because the Emperor does exist, and there are things out there in the aether ready to rip your face off if you let them. Sometimes even when you don't let them.

wait since when? give me an example him actually doing this.

The Astronomicon. The Emperor holding the Eye of Terror closed whilst simultaneously drawing every single psychic-resonant being's (including daemons) attention at once.

BTW this should all be in the fluff section :smalltongue:

Blame Zorg. He started it.

crazedloon

2010-09-27, 09:13 PM

The Astronomicon. The Emperor holding the Eye of Terror closed whilst simultaneously drawing every single psychic-resonant being's (including daemons) attention at once

since when has this been the fluff? As far as I know all the Astronoicon has ever been is a giant lighthouse in the warp on which you can gain your bearings. Also he may gain their attention but so does any psyker (thus the reason their heads explode) Nothing godlike there :smallconfused:

Cheesegear

2010-09-28, 05:32 AM

since when has this been the fluff?

What, that thousands die every day so that the Emperor can keep humming along? That's always been the fluff.

Shortly after the Eye of Terror campaign, the connection was made that as the Emperor is slowly dying, and the Golden Throne ultimately failing (this is fact), the Eye is getting bigger. Its touched on in the Grey Knights books. But, there were hints towards the end of Eye of Terror is where it started.

Or, perhaps that as the Eye gets bigger, the Emperor dies?

Conundrums.

Zorg

2010-09-28, 10:40 AM

But I like the "WW2 soldiers in space" theme of the Imperial Guard...

It's Warhammer Fantasy in space, not proper military Sci Fi.

The Cadians are the most Sci Fi looking Imperial Guard faction and they've always been the most boring one.

Trying to make things look futuristic is more likely to make your work look dated.

Which is why they need to update it :smalltongue: They've updated the Tyranids, Orks, Dark Eldar (eventually), Eldar, Daemons, Necrons (to a degree). The only ones who haven't seen any major reworking are the Imperials and the spikey Imperials.

That Cadians are the most boring is a travesty. Imagine if Coke's main line was the worst of the varieties out there - they tried that (New Coke) and it was an epic disaster. Having the main/poster branding of a line (in this case the IG) being the blandest, dullest is horrible. Sure people rag on Ultras all the time, but that's their background they hate on, not the design of their armour.

The Adeptus Mechanicus would perhaps make more sense if the religion aspect was partly a lie told to the standard recruits (supposedly every two bit member of the maintance crew is a fully fledged cult member) to help the higher ups retain power.

How it was often portrayed in Rogue Trader and 2nd ed.

Some comments on my part:

Sci-Fi is only a small fraction of 40K-Why do most guardsmen look like they were taken from WW I and WW II? Because they were basically taken from WW I and WW II! Just look at the damn land raider! Look at orks! You could copy-pasta them from fantasy and back, switching shields for guns, and nobody would be able to tell the diference!

...

That's the problem. They just ported them without really adding anything sci-fi. NOTHING about a Cadian, Catachan, Mordian or Tallarn soldier says 'futuristic'. Vostroyans are probably the best, as they have steampunkish guns and bionics.
Mostly they could all come from some near-future / alternate history world war scenario and fit in fine.

In a similar note, the stagnation and crippling bureaucracy of the imperium are one of it's main features.

Ys, but it doesn't make for an engaging universe - more on that in the next bit when it goes up.

Small numbers for TT's sake-40K fluff is still made for the tabletop. And in the tabletop you have like half a hundred guys. So of course the numbers need to be kept small, because it isn't much fun to play "regiment 478 that did a minuscle war effort when you look at the big picture". And of course it would be impossible to make a proper planet-conquering campaign (like the ones that show up in IA) when you realistically would have to take dozens if not hundreds of locations.

Nope, all planets have just one-two major cities worth talking, with some thousands of defending troops at best, and the million civilians are desprezable.

Pathetic rationalisation. The disconnect between 'my fifty guys on the table winning a war' vs '1000 guys taking a WHOLE PLANET in a week' is not the same. The game is inherently simplified. 1000 soldiers, even marines, would have trouble taking New York in a week if all 20 million of its citizens were fighting against them.

Dropping nukes on the enemy? Yes good joke. In 40K, nukes are either sent against civilians for the lulz exterminatus, or they fail to work all togheter (cough armagedon cough). That's the only way you can have huge mobs of colored troops charging with pointy sticks across the plains. And heck, did you see anyone drop nukes in Star Wars?

Death Star.

As for the rest, really, you're really taking it seriously, but this is 40K! It is a parody of the 80s medias (like already refered on this thread), not only sci-fi but music, fantasy and others. And that's what actualy gives it a charm that makes it stand on the market!:smallbiggrin:

But is it a good stand out? Crippling beurocracy, no hope, not even any heroic expansion anymore... is this a good direction to be heading in to continue the universe?

If your changes were applied then we couldn't have spech merines doing last stands against that ork mobs and 1x1 leader duels on the frontline and all other "rule of awesome" stuff 40K is renowed for.:smallfrown:

Sure we could - Star Wars had Luke vs Vader, Dune had Paul vs Fayed, Mass Effect had Shepard vs Saren, Halo had Master Chief vs the entire Covenant fleet, Akira had Kaneda vs TETSUOOOO!!!, Avatar had Aussie guy vs robot suit guy, Blade Runner had Deckard vs Roy, Minority Report had Tom Cruise vs Old Guy etc etc etc...

There is no discounting rule of cool simply because you apply the rule of having an internally consistent background, far from it.

hmm looks interesting however (and I will admit to little book reading) some of it seems a little pessimistic as far as the outlook of the game fluff goes.

[quote]-notably you bring up the electoos which if we take DH as cannon (which I feel people do) they exist and are even cheap enough for scum to have. The better electrograpts are standard on techpriests. So they have not disappeared entirely.
-DH also talks about weapons being designed upgraded and built (in the case of the myth of limited plasma weapons) so that tech is not so "static"

True, but that is relatively new, and not readily mentioned ever. For instance in 40k: Rogue Trader, every person on Terra has an Electoo, and many other planets have similar systems for identification, keeping track of bank acounts etc. No Black Library book that I can think of has ever had this in it.
The only books I can think of with them in it is the Inquisition War series, whre they have them as glowing tattoos to show membership of an Ordo.

Why does bulky armor = better armor? I will not try and argue the point of the actual ability of 40k armor but I will point out that our current body armor looks bad when visually compared to a knights armor but kevlar will laugh at a musket fire. So the assumption that your guard needs to be covered head to toe like those pictured is IMHO playing into a current stereo type.

Playing into current stereotypes is the point - if it doesn't look current it looks dated. Check the old Falcon to the new one, or the War Walkers, or Land Raiders, Sentinels, Razorbacks, Trukks etc.

Techpriest coming up with new things also exist they are just the high ups. when you look at an organization as large as the ones in the 40k fluff the "high ups are a small group of people." It is the magoses who make new things since they "understand" how the "spirits" work and therefore are trusted to do it correctly. Those who are not so well versed are the ones who do not invent and instead spend their time chanting at blocks of metal. Also the Mechanicus is split with those who think new things are evil and thus condemn the creation of new things and those who feel it is vitally needed but want to put their stamp on everything new so destroy stuff made by others so they can "invent" it themselves.

Which is all really dumb and nothing would work or get done if everyone who knows anything is constantly backstabbing each other.

The individuals may be devote but that does not mean they need to carry around all the extra symbols and the like (that is what the ecclesiarchy is for) also most people do not have such devot beliefs. {{scrubbed}} And you have varying degrees of faith as well. Why would this change? 40k has its fanatics and its average man nothing odd there :smallconfused:

But the background constantly tells us there is fanatical devotion the the Emperor, that everyone prays all the time to him and so on... but while we're told it happens, it never seems to happen or show signs of happening at some point.
I can't think of any part of the Caiphas Cain books where the Valhallans (a very pious people in 2nd ed) show any particular devotion above a 'meh'. No priests, no ceremonies, no prayers before battle. They're even weirded out by the Tallarnian's faith to a degree, and they aren't very dogmatic by (supposed) Imperial standards.

I will admit the size issue does exist in some ways. However I think you are looking at the numbers incorrectly. When a war for anything in the 40k universe is initiated (except perhaps a mechanicus or SM planet) it is assumed ships full of guard and their equipment is thrown at the problem with little regard for numbers.[quote]

Except for all the canonical instances where a single guard regiment has been sent to pacify a planet.
The problem is that it is implied they should do it that way as a general rule, but when they actually write it down as a specific instance they screw it up.

[QUOTE=crazedloon;9436798]my point was that it does not need a futuristic look to be futuristic.

No, but it needs a futuristic look to look futuristic. When you're saying 'this is the year 40,000 and the guy you shows me looks like he came from the 40s, something is wrong.
Setting tone, mood and so on is more than just GRIMDARK and skulls. A picture of a person will convey a vibe based on pose, proportion, colour/shading, dress, sense of movement (or lack of) in addition to any provided by expression. It's not enough to simply say 'this guy is from the future' if nothing about him visually says 'futuristic', no matter how advanced you tell me his crappy looking laser gun is or how his old-school body armour is really made from amazatonium.
He still looks boring and not-futuristic, and it is a visual game after all.

why must the vest or breastplate look fancy?

Because it's cooler that way. And why shouldn't it?

wait since when? give me an example him actually doing this.

SoB acts of faith, Storm of the Emperor's Wrath wiping out Vandire's fleet, Saint Celestine, warping time to have a chat with Jaq Draco etc.

Oslecamo

2010-09-28, 11:47 AM

That's the problem. They just ported them without really adding anything sci-fi. NOTHING about a Cadian, Catachan, Mordian or Tallarn soldier says 'futuristic'. Vostroyans are probably the best, as they have steampunkish guns and bionics.
Mostly they could all come from some near-future / alternate history world war scenario and fit in fine.

Or they could come from post-apocalyptic planets from where humans had to rebuild themselves from the stone age, and when the imperium contacted them again they didn't bother adding any new technology and just take the "primitive" recruits as they are.

Ys, but it doesn't make for an engaging universe - more on that in the next bit when it goes up.

Well I would say a lot of people seem to love that trait.

Pathetic rationalisation. The disconnect between 'my fifty guys on the table winning a war' vs '1000 guys taking a WHOLE PLANET in a week' is not the same. The game is inherently simplified. 1000 soldiers, even marines, would have trouble taking New York in a week if all 20 million of its citizens were fighting against them.

Ok, now you're exagerating. Of those 20 million, a considerable chunk (too young or too eldery) wouldn't be able to fight at all. Of the remaining, another good chunk would be simply running for their lives, and then another good chunk would simply hide and stuff.

That's one of the big problems of horde armies in all history. It's no use to have massive numbers if you can't channel them towards a single purpose. Sure if the 20 million citizens threw themselves whitout hesitation they would overwhelm the marines, but individually, each person will be more worried about saving it's own skin/protecting their close family than sacrificing itself for the greater good. They'll run and hide and that's why aiming for the leaders it's such a good strategy.

Death Star.

Not a valid example because it was destroyed by space ships, not ground troops with pointy sticks.:smalltongue:

(altough the teddy bears did cripple the shield)

But is it a good stand out? Crippling beurocracy, no hope, not even any heroic expansion anymore... is this a good direction to be heading in to continue the universe?

Well, it does stand out in the market. There's plenty of " EXCITING ADVENTURE!" settings out there. 40K offers "OVERWHELMING GRIMDARKNESS". This is, just look at the popularity of Dark Heresy.

Sure we could - Star Wars had Luke vs Vader,

Certainly not in the frontlines, they always duel on the backstages.

Dune had Paul vs Fayed,

They were all on heavy drugs if I remember correctly.

Mass Effect had Shepard vs Saren, Halo had Master Chief vs the entire Covenant fleet,

Solved by guns, not pointy sticks.

Akira had Kaneda vs TETSUOOOO!!!,

They do try to orbital-laser him, but his psionic powers were just that good. Also no pointy sticks.

Avatar had Aussie guy vs robot suit guy,

And a lot of people complained why they didn't just nuke the planet in there.

Blade Runner had Deckard vs Roy, Minority Report had Tom Cruise vs Old Guy etc etc etc...

Those last examples are simply because they were dealing with minor individual criminals. Nuking a city on your own side just to get rid of one dude that isn't dealing that much damage simply isn't effective.

There is no discounting rule of cool simply because you apply the rule of having an internally consistent background, far from it.

I would say it's the oposite. Rule of Cool sends consistency out the window to make space for giant robots and laser swords and other cool but simply unpratical stuff!:smallbiggrin:

dsmiles

2010-09-28, 11:55 AM

Or they could come from post-apocalyptic planets from where humans had to rebuild themselves from the stone age, and when the imperium contacted them again they didn't bother adding any new technology and just take the "primitive" recruits as they are.

Honestly, I like the jungle guys (Catachan?) the best after the Death Korps. Neither of them seem futuristic. One's a bunch of guys running around with M-60s saying, "I'm your worst nightmare," and the others resemble steampunk Nazis (IMO). I don't think 'futuristic' appearance is all that important for IG or SM. It's the atmosphere that provides the futuristic feel, and it's more important (again, IMO) to have iconic Sci-Fi appearances like the SM do. Then again, maybe it's just me...:smalltongue:
But, I play Tau anyways, so maybe my opinion of IG and SM doesn't count?

Zorg

2010-09-28, 12:32 PM

Or they could come from post-apocalyptic planets from where humans had to rebuild themselves from the stone age, and when the imperium contacted them again they didn't bother adding any new technology and just take the "primitive" recruits as they are.

Ah, that explains all the guard models with tribal furs, shamans as leaders, skull taking and such... oh, they don't make those either? Well at least they appear in the novels... oh, they don't appear anywhere do they?

Well I would say a lot of people seem to love that trait.

A lot of people like crack, Jersey Shore, Twilight and Justin Bieber. It proves nothing about quality or staying power.

Ok, now you're exagerating. Of those 20 million, a considerable chunk (too young or too eldery) wouldn't be able to fight at all. Of the remaining, another good chunk would be simply running for their lives, and then another good chunk would simply hide and stuff.

That's one of the big problems of horde armies in all history. It's no use to have massive numbers if you can't channel them towards a single purpose. Sure if the 20 million citizens threw themselves whitout hesitation they would overwhelm the marines, but individually, each person will be more worried about saving it's own skin/protecting their close family than sacrificing itself for the greater good. They'll run and hide and that's why aiming for the leaders it's such a good strategy.

Ok, they're chaos cultists - everyone fights.

Not a valid example because it was destroyed by space ships, not ground troops with pointy sticks.:smalltongue:

(altough the teddy bears did cripple the shield)

The point was Star Wars had planet obliterating weapons (see also the Sun Crusher in the EU)

Well, it does stand out in the market. There's plenty of " EXCITING ADVENTURE!" settings out there. 40K offers "OVERWHELMING GRIMDARKNESS". This is, just look at the popularity of Dark Heresy.

How many people play DH as super grimdark where everything everyone dos comes to naught due to forces beyond their control. Maybe two games before the GM gets punched in the face methinks.
Adventure doesn't rule out grimdark, it just means that it's not all GRIMDARK all the time. Like 40k was until 3rd edition and is moving back to since the end of 4th.

Certainly not in the frontlines, they always duel on the backstages.

Fine, Robin Hood (either the Errol Flynn or Rustie version), Willow had Iceman vs Skull helmet guy - both in the middle of major battles.

They were all on heavy drugs if I remember correctly.

And everyone in 40kland isn't?

Solved by guns, not pointy sticks.

Still duked it out one on one. Many duels have been fought over the years with firearms, just ask some wild west gunslingers or some ne'erdowell challenged to pistols at dawn.

They do try to orbital-laser him, but his psionic powers were just that good. Also no pointy sticks.

So the psyker was defeated in a non-stabby way. Because that's never been done in 40k :smallsigh: see also: Alaric vs Prince of a Thousand Faces, Emperor vs Horus.

Those last examples are simply because they were dealing with minor individual criminals. Nuking a city on your own side just to get rid of one dude that isn't dealing that much damage simply isn't effective.

These examples had nothing to do with nuking - they were illustrating you can have duels and showdowns and cool fights in an internally constistent sci-fi setting.

I would say it's the oposite. Rule of Cool sends consistency out the window to make space for giant robots and laser swords and other cool but simply unpratical stuff!:smallbiggrin:

Impracticle doesn't mean not internally consistent. The Battletech 'verse is totally impracticle, but very well structured internally and has many cool moments. Star Trek has one of the most fastidious canons known to man, but still pulls it off. Being inconsistent makes it easier, but when the universe is interactive (such as 40k or a RPG is) rather than simply active (a movie or TV show) the inconsistencies show much, much more.

Oslecamo

2010-09-28, 01:00 PM

Ah, that explains all the guard models with tribal furs, shamans as leaders, skull taking and such... oh, they don't make those either? Well at least they appear in the novels... oh, they don't appear anywhere do they?

Actualy...:smalltongue:

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t230/tofonikoagouri/screenie44444.jpg

In IA IV and Blood and Thunder we have full regiments of IG that look just like desert nomads.

A lot of people like crack, Jersey Shore, Twilight and Justin Bieber. It proves nothing about quality or staying power.

In the end it's still a miniatures company. They make most of their money by selling the models, not by making epic well structured stories.

The point was Star Wars had planet obliterating weapons (see also the Sun Crusher in the EU)

Well, don't the 40K has warp torpedos that rip off chunks out of planets and the C'tans that are able to eat stars?:smallconfused:

How many people play DH as super grimdark where everything everyone dos comes to naught due to forces beyond their control. Maybe two games before the GM gets punched in the face methinks.
Adventure doesn't rule out grimdark, it just means that it's not all GRIMDARK all the time. Like 40k was until 3rd edition and is moving back to since the end of 4th.

Ok, it doesn't have to be 100% grimdarkness, but it's still 40K's trademark to put 50-90% grimdarkness on it, so there's a glimmer of hope, but you'll lose some limbs and damn your soul to reach it.:smalltongue:

Fine, Robin Hood (either the Errol Flynn or Rustie version), Willow had Iceman vs Skull helmet guy - both in the middle of major battles.

No nukes available there.:smalltongue:

And everyone in 40kland isn't?

Hmm, fair point.

Still duked it out one on one. Many duels have been fought over the years with firearms, just ask some wild west gunslingers or some ne'erdowell challenged to pistols at dawn.

Now that's passe. Pistol duels at dawn only lasted a very short amount of time and would look even sillier than what we have now.

So the psyker was defeated in a non-stabby way. Because that's never been done in 40k :smallsigh: see also: Alaric vs Prince of a Thousand Faces, Emperor vs Horus.

Funny, because the emperor was crippled by Horus stabbing and ripping off his limbs, not by any psychic attacks, and Leman Russ literally broke the thousand sons primarch with his hands (aka the second strongest humie psyker in existance). :smallwink:

These examples had nothing to do with nuking - they were illustrating you can have duels and showdowns and cool fights in an internally constistent sci-fi setting.

And my point was that 40K has the main characters performing close quarters duels in clear open ground in the middle of a major battle, while all your examples have either stealthy guys duking in cover while shooting their oponents, fighting in pre-arranged duels instead the tick of battle, or they're plain immune to nukes.

Impracticle doesn't mean not internally consistent. The Battletech 'verse is totally impracticle, but very well structured internally and has many cool moments. Star Trek has one of the most fastidious canons known to man, but still pulls it off. Being inconsistent makes it easier, but when the universe is interactive (such as 40k or a RPG is) rather than simply active (a movie or TV show) the inconsistencies show much, much more.

That's because 40K can pull off the "A wizard sorceror/chaos god/psyker/ork did it". Most other sci-fi settings don't really have magic, perhaps some psionics.

40K has gods poping out of nowhere and red vehicles going faster just because it's inhabitants believe it! Rule of Cool at it's max!

Closet_Skeleton

2010-09-28, 01:54 PM

Had a cut short 3000 points game against blood angels today.

On one side of the battle field Dante's honour guard and a 5 man assault combat squad charged my chaplain led assault marines. The chaplain was able to kill two members of the honour guard, but his assault marines were cut down to a single storm shield carrier.

The next turn I charged in my command squad. The jump pack chaplain was able to wipe out the assault squad, the Marshall and Company Champion battered Dante's Iron Halo enough to put him out of action and the rest of the command squad dealt enough wounds to get through the power armour and feel no pain protecting the power weapon marine and priest, leaving the Standard bearer alone to flee and get cut down.

Before we packed up there was a 9 man deathcompany unit lead by a Reclusiarch about to charge my command squad in revenge.

In the middle he had two tactical squads, Corbulo, a furioso, an assault cannon dread and a flamestorm Baal. I had a land raider full of assault terminators, a rhino full of crusaders, 2 heavy bolter bikes and a crusader squad on foot trying to hold an objective. Opposite side of the battle field from my command squad he has 6 terminators with a heavy flamer, 5 CCW scouts, a baal and 10 assault marines with flamers while I have a land raider crusader with crusader squad and Emperor's champion

Turn 1 his baal roasts some scouts and gets stunned by a melta gun. I charge everything forwards.

Turn 2 his furioso pops a rhino with its melta gun, which kills three of the guys inside and causes them to angrily run at the furioso, who assaults and wipes them all back before consolidating back into cover. Dumbest initiates ever.

Turn 3
The assault terminators finally get out of the land raider, charge a tactical squad and wipe them out with their lightning claws with the help of a little supporting fire from their land raider.

The attack bikes drive forwards and unload their heavy bolters into the furioso's rear but only stop it firing its guns.

The crusader squad gets out of the land raider and charges the terminators, killing half of them and only loosing a few scouts in return. Well, the Emperor's Champion and the power fist did some damage, the 12 other guys with their 34 attacks bounced off.

The crusader squad's land raider shot at his assault cannon dread with its multimelta and cause it to explode. It then turns its assault cannon and bolters at a unit of bikers that had been blocking the assault terminators, wiping the bikes out and allowing the terminators their charge.

Turn 4
His terrible reserve rolls finally succeed and an assault marine combat squad lands behind both of my land raiders and wrecks one with Corbolo's reroll's help.

Then a lucky lascannon blast takes out my other land raider and we have to pack up because my parents need the table to eat off. This stops him from finishing his turn and charging his deathcompany into my assault squad, his flamer assault squad into my sole unit of depleted objective holders and his furioso into my assault terminators.

Since 2 objectives are contested, one is miles from any scoring troops and the other is safe in his deployment zone with a lascannon combat squad sitting on top, he wins. He'd possibly had won even better if he'd finished his turn since I would then only have one scoring unit to his four.

Zorg

2010-09-28, 02:10 PM

Since you're not getting my point, I'm just going to quote someone else and be done with it:

I, for one, like the GRIMDARK as it was originally implemented. Gothic is/was a fun change from the usual Star Trek, everything will be better in the future spiel. People just talking their problems out, every violent situation is based on misunderstanding, yada yada, etc. 40K was somewhat unique in that everyone fights everyone else. A very handy thing to have when you are marketing a wargame.

That said, you are right that GW has gone too far with the pervasiveness of the GRIMDARK aspect of the setting. I think one issue is that GW has gone overboard with this and developed some tunnel vision with the GRIMDARK aspect. Part of the problem is that GW is treating it as the same as the Warhammer setting where the Old World is essentially doomed, it is just a matter of when, rather than if. This of course has been institutionalized most recently in the countdown to doomsday stuff they stuck in the fluff section of 5th edition which I think limits the large scale appeal of the setting.

That outcome may be "certain" as to the Old World but that is 1 planet in a much larger universe. 40K has always had the GRIMDARK thing going on but in the past there was some balance with things like Rogue Trader fleets expanding the borders of the Imperium and Adeptus Mechanicus Explorator fleets pushing past the boundries of known space. There were tangible examples of recovered technology being implemented to improve the advance of technology in a number of the Imperial codices. We don't see much if any of that anymore. GRIMDARK is a large part of what makes 40K memorable and unique but like all good things, a complete excess of it is not desirable.

Oh, and your 'proof' of feral IG is from Necromunda - a Ratskin feral ganger vs a Redemptionist ganger. Nothing to do with the Imperial Guard at all.

PART 2 (http://collegiatitanica.blogspot.com/2010/09/redesigning-40k-for-21st-century-pt2.html) is up, I was going over so part 3 will be up in a bit.

hamishspence

2010-09-28, 03:13 PM

It's an interesting argument. The WMG on the TV tropes page for 40K suggests that, if you go by some parts of the 40K fluff, the Imperium has actually improved somewhat- it has expanded since the Horus Heresy- events like the Macharius crusades, and so on. New tech was discovered (in the Imperial Armour books). The Rogue Traders (in the RPG Rogue Trader) are still very active on the fringes. And so on.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/WMG/Warhammer40000

I'm having trouble tracking it down though. There's this bit:
The various source-books and other materials dripping with GRIMDARK are anti-Imperial propaganda.
Almost every sourcebook in the game presents its subject as a terrible, nigh-unstoppable foe of the Imperium who will surely doom its last futile struggles. Yet the literature-especially the accounts of Ciaphas Cain and Ibram Gaunt- often demonstrates the courage and professionalism of the Imperial Guard at its best and often and portrays the Imperium and the Imperial Faith in a much more positive light. Clearly, the doomsday predictions and extreme dystopian elements of the various sourcebooks are either anti-Imperial propaganda or only apply to the Imperium in broad generalities.

"Thought for the Day: It is better for a man to be afraid than happy." The various source-books and other materials dripping with GRIMDARK are Imperial propaganda. The Imperium is a loose empire that spans the entire galaxy. It can take months for messages to get back and forth to some of the more isolated worlds, and even longer to bring forces to bear on any particular point. The only thing keeping most systems from declaring independence from this soul-crushingly oppressive regime is the knowledge that (allegedly) there are a thousand nameless horrors waiting just out of sight to tear them to pieces, and it is only the inexhaustible might of the Imperium as a whole that has a chance of protecting them. The eternal "war-footing" is also useful as an excuse for the atrocities the Imperium regularly commits on its citizens, brings in the annual planetary tithes, and keeps Imperial Guard recruitment figures high.

But why would they claim they commited EVEN MORE atrocities then they already do? I mean, every evidence out there suggests there's only one not-100%-crap alternative to the Imperium already, so why make yourselves look worse?

Accurate information about aliens is ruthlessly surpressed by the Imperium for reasons of ideological purity and because alien or chaos-worshipping cults aren't uncommon. The Imperium constantly tells it's citizens that not only is every single alien personally out to get them (while keeping actual information at a minimum) but keeps them in a constant state of terror to keep them in line.
"Wow, if our guys have to blow up planets rather than let our terrifying soul-devouring enemies get a hold of them, it must be dangerous out there.''

What's the most-played army, the one most players start with? SpaceMarines. Most of the GRIMDARK fluff isn't general Imp propaganda, it's Astartes indoctrination, aimed squarely at their sense of superiority to the rest of the Emperor's servants and their fatalistic attitude. The rest is likely by and for Inquisitors, who aren't known for their lack of paranoia.

There's no inherent contradiction. The Imperial Guard really are professional, competent, even heroic soldiers. They just can't do much against the Cosmic Horrors, space dinosaurs and assorted demigods except act as cannon fodder. The Imperial Faith is at one and the same time a comfort and inspiration to humanity and an excuse/rationale for its worst excesses (true of many real faiths). The Imperium is both a fascistic nightmare of Orwellian conformity and the only real chance we've got. In addition, it spans vast amounts of worlds, easily enough to cover everything from forge worlds to remote agri-colonies.

but not much about the Imperium expanding.

Zorg

2010-09-28, 03:50 PM

Part the third is up. (http://collegiatitanica.blogspot.com/2010/09/redesigning-40k-for-21st-century-pt3.html)

Hamish, one of my points is to ditch the Imperiocentric viewpoint - it hurts interest in the aliens and is often annoyingly vague.

While the Imperium may have expanded in places, the areas captured by Marcharius quickly fell after his death, and much of the expansion was re-taking losses suffered during the Heresy anyway.

Oslecamo

2010-09-28, 04:08 PM

There's no inherent contradiction. The Imperial Guard really are professional, competent, even heroic soldiers. They just can't do much against the Cosmic Horrors, space dinosaurs and assorted demigods except act as cannon fodder.

By all means, they can and do a lot. Pretty much every 40K book states that the IG is the brute arm of the imperium.

After all, space marines aren't the only ones with big weapons. Guardsmen can perfectly hold plasma guns, and in the case of bigger weapons, either get two guardsmen to carry it or stick it on a cheap vehicle driven by guardsmen.

And then we get real men like Yarrick who rips off power claws from warbosses with just one hand.

Space marines are for precision strikes, like breaching a fortress that needs to be captured instead of grounding it to dust with IG artillery for example.

Space marines have also the advantage of not being tied by bureaucracy, so they can answer to problems a lot faster, while your average IG regiment is stuck waiting for the Imperial Navy to carry it around.

hamishspence

2010-09-28, 04:10 PM

Here:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LighterAndSofter

Warhammer 40000. I joke not. During 3e , there were chaos cultists on Terra, the Imperium was losing worlds by the hundreds and High Lords did not care, in fact most of them had been driven insane by imperfect deageing treatments. This was before the Horus Heresy, before the Imperium's methods were justified by dozens of books. There was no Ciaphas Cain, no likeable or sane character to be found. The Sisters of Battle fielded suicide bomber cadres, the Space Marines were a shadow of their power in latter editions, and even more insane: imperfections in their half forgotten surgical techniques rendered 9 out of 10 recruits dead and the survivors deranged. The Religious Horror was at its peak, the artwork like of things that can barely be called human hugging and kissing undetonated artillery shells, begging the gods of war for salvation has never been reprinted, the forces of Chaos, later Ultimate Evil, were simply presented as a alternate form of insanity to that of the Imperium's. By 5e, Warhammer shows an Age of War where humanity's survival hangs in the balance. 3e showed an Age of Insanity where the spirit of man was long dead.

it suggests that 3e was it certain ways, much grimmer than 4e and 5e was.

Of course, this may depend on the viewpoint.

By all means, they can and do a lot. Pretty much every 40K book states that the IG is the brute arm of the imperium.

It's a quote- not my personal viewpoint. I do agree that it downplays the Guard a bit too much.

Oslecamo

2010-09-28, 04:23 PM

it suggests that 3e was it certain ways, much grimmer than 4e and 5e was.

I don't know from wich edition "Heroes and Villains of the 41st Millennium" is, but it was even moar grimdark then:

Each of the Legions has now nominated aspirants seeking to throw themselves upon our mercy in the vain hope that we may deem them worthy to join our ranks. Those loyal to the shrunken corpse on Terra still cling to their own processes by which perhaps one in a hundred neophytes may survive to become a battle brother. The methods I have developed over the last millennia are more stringent, for we must be pure in our hatred and hard of heart, body and soul. Fewer than one in every thousand survive, and I strive each day to lengthen these odds still further.

1 in 10 chances of a neophyte surviving the marinization process? Still too happy! Reduce it to 1/100! And Chaos gets 1/1000!:smalltongue:

Of course, this may depend on the viewpoint.

I think we can all agree that 5e is less grimdark than 4e, with lots of new heroes and less focus on "You're all doomed muahahaha!"

hamishspence

2010-09-28, 04:48 PM

I don't know from wich edition "Heroes and Villains of the 41st Millennium" is, but it was even moar grimdark then:

Fabius Bile's article was in White Dwarf 278- way back in 3rd ed.

IthilanorStPete

2010-09-28, 05:31 PM

Guys, can you please take the fluff debate to the fluff thread and stop clogging this one?

Lycan 01

2010-09-28, 06:38 PM

Pretty sure the fluff thread is dead. :smalleek:

otakuryoga

2010-09-28, 06:50 PM

may be a bit early but looks like we have our title for the next thread

Warhammer 40K: Providing 100% of your recommended daily GRIMDARK allotment since 1987

MountainKing

2010-09-28, 07:29 PM

Pretty sure the fluff thread is dead. :smalleek:

Then perhaps they should make a new thread to argue with Oslecamo about fluff in? I come here for the battle reports and blast templates, not thesis work on why the fluff is lame or awesome. :smallannoyed:

Shas aia Toriia

2010-09-28, 08:49 PM

Yeah, but it makes more sense to have 1 thread that is general purpose thread (like the Steam of MtG ones) rather than 3 or 4 threads that are all dying.

MountainKing

2010-09-28, 09:56 PM

Since when is the Tactics thread dying? Just because people get tired of arguing in circles about fluff doesn't mean people get tired of arguing in circles about statistics. :smallwink:

One Step Two

2010-09-29, 01:09 AM

Speaking of actual Tactics, Battle reports! I bring a Killteam One!

My killteam I decided was going to be stupidly tactically minimalistic, using Eldar Shining spears.

4 Shining Spears - 192 points
One upgraded to Exarch with Skiller Rider, Star Lance and Shuriken Cannon

I would have perferred to give everyone Withdraw, but I wanted to keep the Star Lance more, and with the remaining points, I decided a shuriken cannon wasn't a bad idea.

Versus Tyranids!

Well, my opponent had just 4 Warriors, meaning my 4 wounds had all of 12 to defeat. All armed with Boneswords and Deathspitter meant that I had to be precise before going anywhere near them in close combat.

We had some nicely terrained board, meaning that the 10 points for skilled rider was worth it, and keeping my enemy going for dice for active movement.

I gave my Exarch the Scout ability, One spear with Furious assault and the third with hit and run.

My opponent gave his warriors Fleet, Eternal warrior and Feel no pain.

Deployment:

He won deployment and did so conservatively in his corner using the terrain to his best advantage, but oddly putting his fleeting warrior furthest back.

I used the terrain also, keeping my Spears well out of line of sight, and used the scout move to put my Exarch in a very nice 'can assault but cannot be assaulted position' in cover near his Eternal Warrior Warrior... huh, just realise that it repeated itself there. Heh.

Both of us were completely new at Killteam, so after referencing a rules, and finding out my awesomely rolled 6 to seize the initative meant squat my opponent had the first turn.

Turn 1:

The tyranids found themselves lacking targets, so they all just barreled forwards, the one warrior that could See the exarch took his shots, which failed to hit because he was moving just to fast.

Showing off their speed, two more Spears Boost-moved to the position where the exarch had began, while the remaining moved up the adjacent flank. The Exarch decided to show off, and moved 12", and using his awesome skill with a Shuriken cannon, proceed to hit, wound, and kill the warrior with all three. Deciding to not push his luck he jumps behind a wall in the assault phase.

Turn 2:

Warriors move up, and finding only one having line of sight to the Spears in cover, but cant manage to land a hit, rolling ones and twos mostly. My opponent proceeds to mutter something about a blender.

On my turn my all of my units pop cover, only the Exarch and Hit and Run Spear are capable of making it close enough to have any effect. The hit and run Shining spear makes use of his Laser lance and knocks off one wound in shooting, the Exach feeling cocky from his last round of shooting decides to use his shuriken cannon (actually, I forgot to try and insta-gib with the Star-lance) knocking off two wounds. In the assault, the Exarch charges and finishes the job admirably, and consolidates as far from the enemy as possible. The hit and run Spear manages to land another wound, but fails to finish the job, and pays the price on the recieving end of a bonesword. It was at this point I realised just how frail my Spears were.

Turn 3:

My opponent passes his leadership test to stay in the game, and proceeds to lay into my exposed units with his remaining warriors, only to proove just how awesome a 3+ save really is, followed up by managing to catch my exposed normal Shining Spear in assault, and turning him into a fine red mist.

My turn opens up with a Leadership check which was passed, and it was time for some payback. The Exarch moves into position, and wounds the Feel no pain with his Shuriken cannon with 2 shots, to have the feel no pain keep him steady on one wound. The Furious Charge Spear manages a wound using his Laser lance. The following melee was brutal, the Exarch finishes up his assault, while the Furious Charge Spear prooves ineffectual, missing completely.

Turn 4:

Opponent rolls 11 on his leadership. Game.

The Spears hit hard, but small numbers of attacks makes them very vulnreble, I think it was fortunate enough to work thanks to the fact I was facing equivalent models. In killteam, you can field 20 Ork boyz, and that would have caused me nothing but trouble.

DaedalusMkV

2010-09-29, 02:09 AM

Speaking of actual Tactics, Battle reports! I bring a Killteam One!

[...]

The Spears hit hard, but small numbers of attacks makes them very vulnreble, I think it was fortunate enough to work thanks to the fact I was facing equivalent models. In killteam, you can field 20 Ork boyz, and that would have caused me nothing but trouble.

Nifty report. I definitely don't see enough of the alternate Battle Missions.

I've played three games of Kill Team, so I guess I'll share my experience:
1: IG vs. Necrons
I took a Carapaced Vet squad mounted in a Chimera, dual Plasma. I can't remember most of what I gave my unit; Stealth and Relentless on gunners, for sure, but not much else. My opponent took 4 Destroyers: Feel No Pain, Scout and Stealth. I got stomped, since he took down my transport on turn 1 and then proceeded to murder my shorter-ranged troops with inferior mobility.

2: IG vs Necrons
A Rematch. He took the same list; I took a damned Platoon. Fool me once and all that. Specifically, two Infantry squads with Autocannons and Grenade Launchers and a Command Squad with snipers. My special rules didn't matter too much, though I gave my Autocannon teams Stealth and Eternal Warrior. It was a much fairer fight; his mobility advantage meant a lot less with my heavy weapons spam, and focusing on them left my Lasgunners in good position to get some shots in. I managed to win, though I took some hefty casualties.

3: Tau vs Space Marines
I brought a Crisis Team to the battlefield; Specifically, a Plasma/Fusion 'suit, a Plasma/Missile 'suit and a CIB/AFP "specialist" Shas'vre. He took a Sternguard squad; 7 models I believe. Some of them had Combi-Plasma and Melta. I gave my Battlesuits Feel No Pain, Skilled Rider and Eternal Warrior, respectively. This one was an interesting match; I could sit back and plasma-snipe, but give up pretty much all of my mobility advantage to do so, or play agressive and try to pick him off, but risk boltery death. I managed to win with only one suit lost and one wounded; superior mobility and range is a big, big deal in Kill Team, especially when you can punish the enemy horribly for grouping together. It was also the only kill team game I've played where the lists were written before we knew what enemy we were up against.

hamishspence

2010-09-29, 04:08 AM

Since when is the Tactics thread dying? Just because people get tired of arguing in circles about fluff doesn't mean people get tired of arguing in circles about statistics. :smallwink:

Thing is-the thread isn't called Tactics anymore- it (and the last thread) are called Tabletop.

This may mean anything 40K and tabletop-related is fair game- not just army-building, but discussion of the evolution of 40K from edition to edition.

I said in one of the earlier threads that there's an element of "going retro" to the last couple of editions- things are moving away from a 3rd ed style and back toward a 2nd ed style.

The Eldar may, to a certain point, typify this- when the Craftworld Eldar minicodex came out in 3rd ed, the Eldar models were revised- Dark Reapers, Striking Scorpions, Howling Banshees, Fire Dragons.

In 4E- the models were revised again- and look much more like the 2nd ed style.

The same may be true of psychic powers- in 3rd ed Librarians had very few available ones (not counting the later minor powers in White Dwarf), in 4E and 5E they have lots.

Old weapons have been brought back- the Avatar's wailing doom, the Shokk Attack Gun, the Conversion Beamer, and so on.

Cheesegear

2010-09-29, 04:55 AM

I said in one of the earlier threads that there's an element of "going retro" to the last couple of editions- things are moving away from a 3rd ed style and back toward a 2nd ed style.

No. No they're really not. 5th Ed is most like 3rd Ed. 3.5/4th are the Black Sheep of the game. Even though 3.5/4th was the best time the game has ever had.

The same may be true of psychic powers- in 3rd ed Librarians had very few available ones (not counting the later minor powers in White Dwarf), in 4E and 5E they have lots.

Also not true. Psykers have two psychic powers. Some also have Force Weapons or are special characters. 2nd Ed. psykers were game-breakingly powerful because they had four or more powers, at the same time. Just as Mages have been in WHFB for like...Ever. Up until very recently.

The game will never go back to 2nd Ed. The whole point of 3rd Ed was to make it a completely different game to WHFB. And it is. 3rd Ed. worked. The greatest era of 40K was around 2000 ('3.5 Ed.'), and the Eye of Terror campaign.

Not every second player was playing Marines (although it was more like, one in four) the rules were fairly solid, and the TAR (pretty much what we have now for Assault) fixed a lot of problems that the game had at that time.

Individuality was king. And that's the way it should be. There were tons and tons and tons of lists out there available pretty much for free in White Dwarf. You really couldn't memorise your opponent's Codex because there was just so much...Stuff...That you could do. Then you added in variants from White Dwarf.

You might cry, now. Saying that 'That's way too complicated'. No. It wasn't. You only needed to memorise one Codex and rule-set. Yours. Let your opponent worry about his own list. As long as he's got his rules, and can show you them when he starts pulling some weird stuff, then everything was okay. The Internet also wasn't as huge as it was now, and you rarely - if ever - had people net-listing. You really couldn't expect what your opponent would bring to the table.
It made playing the game fun.

Now, with Codecies being dumbed down, variant lists gone, and a whole lot of options, gone, tailoring your lists against your opponents has never been easier. Especially since Marines are now standard.
Marines are not supposed to be standard. There's meant to be a thousand Chapters each with their own individual quirks and styles, whilst still conforming to the same general rules.
Now that Codecies have been 'standardised', you can predict what your opponent is likely to have in his army and going to a tournament has never been easier as there are only a few 'good' things in the game. As long as you can deal with those few things, you're set.

Old weapons have been brought back- the Avatar's wailing doom, the Shokk Attack Gun, the Conversion Beamer, and so on.

That doesn't mean 'the game is going back to 2nd'. It means that GW is out of new ideas and needs to go back to old source material to keep selling models.

dsmiles

2010-09-29, 04:59 AM

That doesn't mean 'the game is going back to 2nd'. It means that GW is out of new ideas and needs to go back to old source material to keep selling models.

Sweet! SQUATS FTW!

One Step Two

2010-09-29, 05:00 AM

Old weapons have been brought back- the Avatar's wailing doom, the Shokk Attack Gun, the Conversion Beamer, and so on.

Not to mention the return of the Avatars Molten Body rule. This power/fluff creep is actually very interesting because we're getting back a bunch of our more funky powers/rules/units, while some claim are OP are very army appropriate, which was lacking from 3rd, making armies somewhat homongenous.

Examples of awesome diversity include, Descent of Angels for the Blood Angels, people may aruge on how unfair it may seem, but everyone can agree, that if blood angels are deep-strike specialists, that the rule is very them.
The Thunderwolves and wolf packs for the Space wolves are fluffy and interesting army additions.

Imperial Guard had 2 modes: More Infrantry and More Tanks. Now, combined units for masses of bodies, and they've delivered a bunch of different Leman Russ variations, the Banewolf, and Freaking gunships. The first army to recieve an actual flyer unit outside of IA.

It will be interesting to see the new Dark Eldar Codex, because the army already was very fluffy, and filled with unique units. Sure we'll see some fixes that surely need them, such as grotesques and haemonoculi. But any new additions will certainly be welcome.

Cheesegear

2010-09-29, 05:03 AM

Sweet! SQUATS FTW!

Pfft. Just buy WHFB Dwarves, combine them with Imperial Guard arms and lasguns, and watch your opponent cry as you break LoS rules (http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/22852-.html?m=2).

Imperial Guard had 2 modes: More Infrantry and More Tanks.

Those are still the same two ways that the IG works now. The only difference is you're now using different tanks, or even more Infantry than you used to be able to have.

One Step Two

2010-09-29, 05:14 AM

Those are still the same two ways that the IG works now. The only difference is you're now using different tanks, or even more Infantry than you used to be able to have.

Which was my point... :smallconfused:

Also, squat gaurd, nicely painted I must say.

dsmiles

2010-09-29, 05:18 AM

Pfft. Just buy WHFB Dwarves, combine them with Imperial Guard arms and lasguns, and watch your opponent cry as you break LoS rules (http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/22852-.html?m=2).

Totally inspired to do a Squats army now. Like, RIGHT now.

Although, I personally thought Squats would be more like SM mixed with steampunk. Dwarves in steampunk-inspired power armor.

Cheesegear

2010-09-29, 05:22 AM

Although, I personally thought Squats would be more like SM mixed with steampunk. Dwarves in steampunk-inspired power armor.

Well, they are, actually. But, Space Marine parts and Dwarf parts don't go quite so well as Imperial Guard parts do.

Also, you did see the Runesmith in the front right? Hell, look what model you get when you subscribe to White Dwarf these days. :smallwink:

dsmiles

2010-09-29, 05:24 AM

Well, they are, actually. But, Space Marine parts and Dwarf parts don't go quite so well as Imperial Guard parts do.

Yeah, but I bet a good modder (read: not me) could make it work. I'll probably go the IG route on this one, if I have the money to do it. I still need to finish my Tau armies and my Warmachine army. :smallsigh:

hamishspence

2010-09-29, 05:26 AM

Now, with Codecies being dumbed down, variant lists gone, and a whole lot of options, gone, tailoring your lists against your opponents has never been easier. Especially since Marines are now standard.
Marines are not supposed to be standard. There's meant to be a thousand Chapters each with their own individual quirks and styles, whilst still conforming to the same general rules.
Now that Codecies have been 'standardised', you can predict what your opponent is likely to have in his army and going to a tournament has never been easier as there are only a few 'good' things in the game. As long as you can deal with those few things, you're set.

Still a bit more like 2nd ed than 3rd/3.5 ed. 2nd ed didn't have variant lists- 3rd ed and early 4e tended to- 5th ed has tended to remove variants.

3rd ed tyranids? "create your own hive fleet" 3.5 ed Guard? "create your own regiment" doctrines. 3rd/3.5 eldar? variant craftworld lists (Didn't Craftworld Eldar and the first few Index Astartes articles come out slightly before the Trial Assault rules, which marked the beginning of 3.5?)

4e and 5e tended to remove these, in favour of a single, reasonably flexible list, in each codex.

Cheesegear

2010-09-29, 05:26 AM

Yeah, but I bet a good modder (read: not me) could make it work. I'll probably go the IG route on this one, if I have the money to do it. I still need to finish my Tau armies and my Warmachine army. :smallsigh:

Tau armies? As in, more than one? I suppose I have two Space Marine armies...
:smallconfused: And possibly a third, very soon...

And Warmachine? Warmachine!? Warmac- Well that's just Heresy!

Closet_Skeleton

2010-09-29, 05:29 AM

I was reading an old 2nd edition book (the ultramarines codex I think) and it says Black Templars are a codex chapter and shows one who's all black with white templar crosses and a green chest eagle and states that the chest eagles show the company colour. His bolt gun is also blue.

Random quote from page 10:

The Adeptus Terra has never felt it necessary to enforce the Codex absolutely. Indeed it is doubtful if it could.

From page 9

Each chapter was to number aproximately a thousand fighting warriors divided into ten companies of a hundred. This was never intended to be an absolute rule but a guide which enabled the Adeptus Terra to monitor and control each chapter. In fact, Chapters have often exceeded this basic strength during times of prolonged war.

Emphasis mine.

For some reason 2nd edition Blood Angels got a decent colour scheme with black trims on the shoulder pads and yellow chest eagles, but all other editions gives them the most boring colour scheme ever, all red with black chest eagles.

dsmiles

2010-09-29, 05:31 AM

Tau armies? As in, more than one? I suppose I have two Space Marine armies...
:smallconfused: And possibly a third, very soon...

And Warmachine? Warmachine!? Warmac- Well that's just Heresy!

Is it, Cheese? Is it really? I've seen you over in the WM/Hordes thread.
:smalltongue:

And yes, three Tau armies. Same Septworld (N'Dras), different themes (Desert, Urban, Alien Auxiliaries). Different paint schemes and different units for each.

Cheesegear

2010-09-29, 05:38 AM

Also, I don't like the new Lelith Hesperax model. Definitely a step backwards. :smallmad:

Closet_Skeleton

2010-09-29, 05:42 AM

If I could I'd have three Space Marine armies for all the core sons of Dorn.

As it is I just have 3200 points of Black Templars and 1500 points of Angels Encarmine.

hamishspence

2010-09-29, 05:46 AM

On psychic powers- the point I was trying to make was that 4E and 5E (unlike 3E, but like 2E) went with a much wider range of available psychic powers. (discounting White Dwarf material)

How may powers did:
a 3E Space Marine Librarian have to choose from?
a 3E Blood Angels Librarian have to choose from?
a 3E Space Wolves Rune Priest have to choose from?
a 3E Salamanders Librarian (Codex Armageddon) have to choose from?
a 3.5E 13th Company Rune Priest have to choose from?

In that respect, the powers available has tended to expand over time.

Cheesegear

2010-09-29, 05:57 AM

On psychic powers- the point I was trying to make was that 4E and 5E (unlike 3E, but like 2E) went with a much wider range of available psychic powers. (discounting White Dwarf material)

2nd Ed. had like, ten powers for each Codex. More.

But, see, back in 3rd Ed, White Dwarf material was a huge part of the game. Y'know how these days we all complain that [favourite Codex here] hasn't been updated in forever? That never used to happen.

Some sort of army was updated, or a variant list came out, or there were new psychic powers to bring everyone up to speed with everyone else. White Dwarf back in those days is what I wished we had now; Tech Support. A constant stream of FAQs and/or Chapter Approved. I still have questions that aren't answered in the 'current' (two years' old) FAQ.

It was also a rather large cash cow, as people wanted to buy every single White Dwarf that came out. If you didn't get that White Dwarf, compliations came out every so often, and, what's more, GW wasn't so anal-retentive about their IP and you could actually find out what you needed to know over the internet.
...As opposed to now, where White Dwarf barely interests me in the slightest except for the odd painting tutorial. Which I don't really need because painting tutorials are all over the internet.

If you take out White Dwarf material from 3rd/4th, you're taking out a significant portion of the game.

hamishspence

2010-09-29, 06:06 AM

True.

The impression I tend to get from the current era, is that (especially with Apocalypse) they're tending to bring back some of the things that made 2nd ed interesting. Vortex grenades in Apocalypse, various units that first appeared in the epic scale, and so on.

Cheesegear

2010-09-29, 06:19 AM

The impression I tend to get from the current era, is that (especially with Apocalypse) they're tending to bring back some of the things that made 2nd ed interesting. Vortex grenades in Apocalypse, various units that first appeared in the epic scale, and so on.

Yeah, sure. But, the way I see it, is that they removed those things for a reason. Nobody was using the fifteen powers in each Codex, they were mainly using the same three or four. Gate and Vortex have been brought back into the game, but, they're barely a shadow of their former selves. Scratch that. Librarians themselves, are barely a shadow of their former selves.

Besides, anybody whose anybody doesn't use Gate or Vortex anyway. Or, at least not both at the same time anymore. And when was the last time somebody used Machine Curse? :smallconfused:

Conversion Beamers are more obvious; I've only seen two in the whole time that 5th Ed. Codex Marines has been out. My own, and someone else's. And I don't even use my own that much. Nobody was using Conversion Beamers, that's why they took them out. And they're still not.

It's like saying "Bring back squats."
Why? Nobody bought them the first time 'round. And they were pretty much a catastrophic failure. Most of the people who 'want squats back' are not the RT/2nd Ed. veteran gamers of yesteryear. But mainly just people who have never seen them before.
I was there when they got eaten by Tyranids never to be seen again. And I didn't care one bit - and I still don't.

There's not really any point in having 'lots of options' if you aren't going to use them. It's part of the reason that 3.5 and 4th Ed. got 'scaled back' into 5th. Although I feel that they did go a little too far removing all options. 3.5 Imperial Guard and Chaos Marine players know what I'm talking about...

And, GW brining back old models/units/rules that they already discontinued once (for good reasons; Too powerful/pointless/financially nonviable) just reeks of laziness to me. I'm not really impressed when they do it. To me, as I said, it just seems like they're running out of good ideas.
(And the original ideas that they do have [i.e; Thunderwolves] aren't even that good anyway)

Oslecamo

2010-09-29, 06:30 AM

Scratch that. Librarians themselves, are barely a shadow of their former selves.

And I say that's for the best. Back in 2e psykers ruled the jungle. If your army didn't have a psyker, and your oponent had, then it was basically impossible to win because you couldn't counter your oponent's super powers. Psykers were balanced towards the enemy having a psyker of his own that could (relatively) easily counter your stuff.

Psykers nerf overall allowed for non-psyker factions to appear (necrons, tau), and meant the other factions weren't forced to take a psyker or be rolled over.

Cheesegear

2010-09-29, 06:46 AM

Psykers nerf overall allowed for non-psyker factions to appear (necrons, tau), and meant the other factions weren't forced to take a psyker or be rolled over.

Yeah. Exactly. Librarians being less powerful than they used to be is definitely a good thing. Except then they go and break that system by adding in Njal, Mephiston and Swarmlord.

Leaving Ezekiel (a 2nd Ed. God!) in the dust. Although Ezekiel does have "GTFO!", Zogwort's is better. But Phisty and The 'Lord (I'd watch that show) both have immunity to Zogwort.

One Step Two

2010-09-29, 06:53 AM

Stuff

With the lack of use of things like the conversion beamers and other less-than-optimal choices, wouldn't that be because in a more competative environment, like tournaments, and meta environments like yours for example (it is competative isnt it?) mean that people need to be far more careful with their unit choices for the things they need to deal with?

We discuss the values of units here as weight and currency to victory, and we admit, while not always unanimously, that some choices are superior to others. But we often make those choices from a "Play to win" points of views. I mean, I have an Eldar Jetbike army, it's originality throws off some players, and others see it as me using up my points where I could spend them on more dangerous aspect warriors. There certainly has to be plenty of players that use those quirky units because, they want to try them for fun.

However, what you say isn't wrong, there's a reason there isn't a model for the Conversion Beamer, and other quirky things. :smallwink:

Cheesegear

2010-09-29, 07:04 AM

With the lack of use of things like the conversion beamers and other less-than-optimal choices, wouldn't that be because in a more competative environment...

Not even that.
It's just that the Master of the Forge himself, is just so...Bland. I mean, I get that I run in a competitive environment, but, it's not like we don't get new players in (who play Space Marines), or I don't hang out in GW some days on my periodical Build-A-Thons kitbashing Dark Angel veterans with various Chaos Bits to make Word Bearers (only to realise, about two days later, that I shouldn't be taking normal CSM squads, still, they look cool, I made them, after all).

It's just that the new players, who have no idea, don't even want the Master of the Forge, Conversion Beamer and all. The Captain, Chaplain and Librarian are all better choices. Even to a ten year-old kid. Now that tells you something, right there. :smallwink:

But we often make those choices from a "Play to win" points of views. I mean, I have an Eldar Jetbike army, it's originality throws off some players

Eldar Jetbike armies are original? :smallconfused:
Can I play in your meta-game and just blow people away? :smalltongue:

However, what you say isn't wrong, there's a reason there isn't a model for the Conversion Beamer, and other quirky things. :smallwink:

Exactly. Like Bloodcrushers, Seekers, Horrors and Daemon Princes, if people actually want those models, GW will get right on it (...in six months...). People don't want a Master of the Forge with a Conversion Beamer. So there isn't one.

hamishspence

2010-09-29, 07:06 AM

Might be interesting to speculate on what later codicies will be like- given the current design style.

Prediction for 5E Dark Angels if it ever arrives:

More psychic powers, like Blood Angels, Space Marines, Space Wolves.
Return of old favourite characters: Asmodai, Veteran Sergeant Namaan (or whatever his name was)
Dreadnoughts with double heavy weapons (Mortis Dreadnoughts) being a part of the main army list.

Any other cases where one might be able to extrapolate from the current design style?

Winterwind

2010-09-29, 07:21 AM

There's not really any point in having 'lots of options' if you aren't going to use them. It's part of the reason that 3.5 and 4th Ed. got 'scaled back' into 5th. Although I feel that they did go a little too far removing all options. 3.5 Imperial Guard and Chaos Marine players know what I'm talking about...Oh, tell me about it. Me reading the 3.5 Chaos Marine codex played an absolutely major part in both drawing me into WH40k and choosing Chaos Marines as my army, and while I have never regretted that choice, boy, I sure felt cheated when I read the current codex... :smallsigh:

I mean, I have an Eldar Jetbike army, it's originality throws off some players, and others see it as me using up my points where I could spend them on more dangerous aspect warriors.Aren't Eldar Jetbike armies, like, the default? :smallconfused:

One Step Two

2010-09-29, 07:27 AM

Not even that.
It's just that the Master of the Forge himself, is just so...Bland. I mean, I get that I run in a competitive environment, but, it's not like we don't get new players in (who play Space Marines), or I don't hang out in GW some days on my periodical Build-A-Thons kitbashing Dark Angel veterans with various Chaos Bits to make Word Bearers (only to realise, about two days later, that I shouldn't be taking normal CSM squads, still, they look cool, I made them, after all).

It's just that the new players, who have no idea, don't even want the Master of the Forge, Conversion Beamer and all. The Captain, Chaplain and Librarian are all better choices. Even to a ten year-old kid. Now that tells you something, right there. :smallwink:

Can't argue there.

Eldar Jetbike armies are original? :smallconfused:
Can I play in your meta-game and just blow people away? :smalltongue:

First, I started using them back in 3rd edition, using Craftworld Saim Hann rules, it was awfully expensive, and people thought it silly, this disarming gave me an edge. I'm remeniscing a little.
And no, you cant, I like being a big fish in a small pond :P

Exactly. Like Bloodcrushers, Seekers, Horrors and Daemon Princes, if people actually want those models, GW will get right on it (...in six months...). People don't want a Master of the Forge with a Conversion Beamer. So there isn't one.

Then where the heck is the Jetbike Seer Council :smallwink: You couldn't mount Farseers on bikes. Warlocks you could have though. More to the point really, why could I only buy bikes in ones, and only Shining spears in threes?

dsmiles

2010-09-29, 07:32 AM

More to the point really, why could I only buy bikes in ones, and only Shining spears in threes?

Is this like the "Why do hot dogs come in packs of 10 and hot dog buns come in packs of 8?" thing? 'Cause I can answer that one...:smalltongue:

Cheesegear

2010-09-29, 07:32 AM

Prediction for 5E Dark Angels if it ever arrives:

Any other cases where one might be able to extrapolate from the current design style?

Blood Angels should not have Shackle Soul or Fear the Darkness. Those are Dark Angel powers, plain and simple. I also wouldn't mind if Dark Angels have access to the power that the Imperial Guard have where you reduce your Leadership by so much. Maybe like Divine Pronouncement out of Witch Hunters, or Word of the Emperor from DH/WH.

Dark Angel Librarians should be about Battlefield Control (not in the vein of Lash of Submission though) and forcing Leadership checks. Not Morale checks. Leadership checks. A Dark Angel gets inside your head, and explodes your brain and turns you into a gibbering mess. 'Morale' shouldn't have anything to do with it. Your brain is pudding to a Dark Angel.

"This is a psychic Shooting attack that automatically hits any one unit within 18". That unit is Pinned next turn. No exceptions."

Ezekiel needs to retain "GTFO!" Maybe make it slightly easier to pull off. Have it work the same way as Zogwort's. But, keep it so it affects models, not ICs.

Have access to Watchers In The Dark. They allow another power to be cast during your turn (stacks with Epistolary). Or give you access to a third power, or something. Maybe they provide a 3+ Invulnerable save without using up one of your hands?

Bring everything in line with Space Marines. No Sternguard or Vanguard though. I think Dark Angel Terminators are fine, as-is. I just wish you could take more of them at once.
Give all Ravenwing Bikers Skilled Rider and a 5+ Invulnerable save like they used to have. As this would justify their absurd points cost, and keep them from dying when they try to make a Scout move.
("I run my Bikes 24" up the field...Roll Dangerous Terrain...OHNOES!")

Make Belial suck less. With that single exception, the DA Special Characters are pretty badarse. Make Interrogator-Chaplains do something amazing. Any model in BtB counts as Initiative 1?

Honestly, I think Dark Angels are fine, right now. It's just that you can do a lot of the same things with Codex Marines, for less points. If you just made Dark Angels have a reasonable points cost, everything would be fine.

EDIT: Land Raider Ares. That is all.

Then where the heck is the Jetbike Seer Council :smallwink: You couldn't mount Farseers on bikes. Warlocks you could have though. More to the point really, why could I only buy bikes in ones, and only Shining spears in threes?

Be happy with what you've got. Because you can always get a Jetbike. :smallamused:

One Step Two

2010-09-29, 07:40 AM

Dark Angels Stuff

I do like the idea about the Watchers being spare hands for Dark angels characters. I think Interrogator Chaplins should have something akin to the Fear rules from fantasy needing to pass a morale teast to assault them, because I don't know about you, but I certainly wouldn't want to be in arms reach of one.

Be happy with what you've got. Because you can always get a Jetbike. :smallamused:

If people were happy with what they have then GW would never make any money :smalltongue:

Edit: Did I mention I was considering buying the new Dark Eldar bikes to do some conversion work?

Cheesegear

2010-09-29, 07:50 AM

I think Interrogator Chaplins should have something akin to the Fear rules from fantasy needing to pass a morale teast to assault them, because I don't know about you, but I certainly wouldn't want to be in arms reach of one.

Like Word of the Emperor from Daemonuhunters/Witch Hunters? Even the name sounds appropriate. However, I did include that in my list of psychic powers that Dark Angels should have.

WotE makes you take a Leadership test. Not a Morale check. And that makes it amazing.

I also think that because Deathwing and Ravenwing exist for Dark Angels, 'Company Veterans' are still appropriate. They just need to be better. Like Chosen for CSMs.

Edit: Did I mention I was considering buying the new Dark Eldar bikes to do some conversion work?

So, yeah...That...Sail...Fin...Thing. In the middle of the new Raiders. Those things are real. :smallyuk:
Did I mention how disappointed I am in the new Lelith model? I did. Now I'm mentioning it again.

One Step Two

2010-09-29, 08:05 AM

Like Word of the Emperor from Daemonuhunters/Witch Hunters? Even the name sounds appropriate. However, I did include that in my list of psychic powers that Dark Angels should have.

WotE makes you take a Leadership test. Not a Morale check. And that makes it amazing.

I also think that because Deathwing and Ravenwing exist for Dark Angels, 'Company Veterans' are still appropriate. They just need to be better. Like Chosen for CSMs.

Well, again, the effect is more for the chaplin as an aura of "Stay the hell away" but also good as a psyker power.

And I 100% agree on Deathwing and Ravenwing getting more special rules, but that sort of line of what makes them unique vs what makes them too good to not take is hard to deal with. Sternguard, as an example, rock like all get out. Weapon options aside, the special bolter rounds makes buying an un-upgraded unit worthwhile. However, a unit of straight up terminators is still just as good, and alot more resillient. Deathwing Termies are already pretty good (aside from a dated codex), give them more shinies, and then there wouldn't be any reason to take anything but Deathwing.

I think a really interesting thing to see is a new Dark Angels codex that makes taking non-Deathwing, non-Ravenguard, Dark Angels army worthwhile.

So, yeah...That...Sail...Fin...Thing. In the middle of the new Raiders. Those things are real. :smallyuk:
Did I mention how disappointed I am in the new Lelith model? I did. Now I'm mentioning it again.

Sails, yeah... couldn't agree more. I perfer the old raiders simple skiff forms. As for Lelith.... yeah there's nothing glaringly wrong with the mini, but it does seem to be a bunch of small things that add up. She's meant to look dynamic in that spiderman-like pose, but it's not very intimidating, and her weapons do look very very tame. Also, the hair does look a little big.

dsmiles

2010-09-29, 08:14 AM

Sails, yeah... couldn't agree more. I perfer the old raiders simple skiff forms. As for Lelith.... yeah there's nothing glaringly wrong with the mini, but it does seem to be a bunch of small things that add up. She's meant to look dynamic in that spiderman-like pose, but it's not very intimidating, and her weapons do look very very tame. Also, the hair does look a little big.

Perhaps a Dark Eldar: 80s Hair Metal army? I hear about doing it with CSM, but maybe DE for a twist?

EDIT: @ Cheesegear: On you earlier Squats comment: I just want Squats because I've seen some old models (or very well-done conversions) and I think Space Dwarves in Steampunk-inspired power armor just look cool, and for me, the army is all about the look. (I may do some Steam Marines, just because I like steampunk). I'd buy the heck out of Squats. I would have taken them as an army, even if they lost every battle. (It's more about the hobby than the game for me, and the next best thing to steampunk is futuristic mecha, so, Tau it is.) :smallbiggrin:

Cheesegear

2010-09-29, 08:22 AM

And I 100% agree on Deathwing and Ravenwing getting more special rules, but that sort of line of what makes them unique vs what makes them too good to not take is hard to deal with.

Well, Deathwing are fine as-is. 43 Points each, Fearless, pick'n'mix. Deathwing Assault. I think they're perfect. And really think that Imperial Fists need their Phalanx Assault back.
You just need to be able to take more than 5 in a squad.

Maybe "Due to the surgical nature of Deep Striking, a Deathwing Squad that chooses to Deep Strike may not contain more than 5 models."

And that way, when you don't Deep Strike them, and run them in a Land Raider, you aren't wasting a ton of space. And you're also not dropping 2 Assault Cannons in your opponent's Deployment Zone in Turn 1.

Deathwing Termies are already pretty good (aside from a dated codex), give them more shinies, and then there wouldn't be any reason to take anything but Deathwing.

That's...Uh...Kind of the point. The 1st Company is Deathwing. All Terminators, all the time. 'Company Veterans' are exactly that. They're not 1st Company.

They're the best Xth Company has to offer. They shouldn't be Sternguard, and they shouldn't be Vanguard. They should be like CSM Chosen, or BT Sword Brethren. A bunch of guys with a special skill (Infiltrate is the best one) and then kit them out with a bunch of special weapons. But not Heavy weapons, because then they'd be Infiltrating Devastators. And 4th Ed. Codex Marines already taught us how broken that is.

I think a really interesting thing to see is a new Dark Angels codex that makes taking non-Deathwing, non-Ravenguard, Dark Angels army worthwhile.

You mean Green Wing? It exists already. Usually in conjunction with Deathwing-as-Troops though.

The problem with Dark Angels, currently, is that due to their points cost, they don't become a viable army until higher level games. In 1500+ you can do some pretty cool stuff with Raven-, or Deathwing, or both. Green Wing even works when you do it properly. Although when you play Green Wing, you're missing out.

crazedloon

2010-09-29, 08:25 AM

WotE makes you take a Leadership test. Not a Morale check. And that makes it amazing.

I abuse the old wording with my current DE list (terrorfexes) however the reason it is a leadership check not a moral check is due to the 3E wording when there was no such thing as moral checks (look at grey knight fearless which makes them immune to leadership checks since codex trumps big book :smallwink:)

with that in mind I doubt they will ever bring back leaderships checks. I make my opponents cry with my terror/horrorfex spam which laughs as it pins SM (particularly when lysander is on the board :smalltongue: )

So, yeah...That...Sail...Fin...Thing. In the middle of the new Raiders. Those things are real. :smallyuk:
Did I mention how disappointed I am in the new Lelith model? I did. Now I'm mentioning it again.
I agree the sail is ugly and I am iffy about the whole tiller as a means to guide the ship. But I am thinking the rest of the kit is too nice to pass up even if I just use it as an upgrade kit for my current raiders

Also what is wrong with her current model? I will admit it makes little sense (and is a little plain) when compared to her new rules but I have a feeling that she has a whole new set of rules to explain the model. I think its at least pretty enough a model to be a unit champ (and base for a conversion for her model) The other problem is Lelith's current model was one of the few good looking models in perhaps the ugliest range of models GW has so its an uphill battle there.

Cheesegear

2010-09-29, 08:29 AM

with that in mind I doubt they will ever bring back leaderships checks.

Blood Angels Codex. Shackle Soul. Best power they have.

The other problem is Lelith's current model was one of the few good looking models in perhaps the ugliest range of models GW has so its an uphill battle there.

Drazhar is my favourite model in the entire range of everything.

EDIT: Actually, I tell a lie; Uriah Jacobus. Then Drazhar.

banjo1985

2010-09-29, 08:37 AM

In the grimdark future of the 41st Millenium, the vehicle in front of your is an 18th century fishing boat :smalltongue:

Not a fan of the sail on the new Raiders either, it's out of place and rather unconvincing. I do quite like the crew smattered all over it though, even if that does make it harder to leave on the table as a wreck. Lelith is okay, but looks like she should be a normal Wyche model rather than a special character. She's rather bland and not particularly mean looking. It's like GW have tried to make her so obvioucly feminine that they've forgot about everything else. Barefoot on a battlefield? Hmmmm.

The Reaver jetbikes are nice though, and the standard warriors look pretty good. I'm far from convinced about the male Wyches and Incubi (also known as Slaaneshi Chaos Marines on a diet) though.

SmartAlec

2010-09-29, 08:46 AM

EDIT: @ Cheesegear: On you earlier Squats comment: I just want Squats because I've seen some old models (or very well-done conversions) and I think Space Dwarves in Steampunk-inspired power armor just look cool, and for me, the army is all about the look.

This is sadly the thing that killed off the Squats; the fact that they were just Dwarves with power armour. As 40K moved on, the objective was to make 40K something other than WFB IN SPACE. The Eldar and the Orks found an identity seperate from their fantasy counterparts. Sadly, the Design thinktanks couldn't think of anything to make the Squats seem anything than Dwarves IN SPACE, so they were put aside.

The idea lives on in the Demiurg.

dsmiles

2010-09-29, 09:03 AM

This is sadly the thing that killed off the Squats; the fact that they were just Dwarves with power armour. As 40K moved on, the objective was to make 40K something other than WFB IN SPACE. The Eldar and the Orks found an identity seperate from their fantasy counterparts. Sadly, the Design thinktanks couldn't think of anything to make the Squats seem anything than Dwarves IN SPACE, so they were put aside.

The idea lives on in the Demiurg.

Huh. I guess they need better thinktanks, then. I can certainly think of a few directions to go with a Space Dwarf civilization. Oh, well.

hamishspence

2010-09-29, 09:04 AM

Like Word of the Emperor from Daemonuhunters/Witch Hunters? Even the name sounds appropriate. However, I did include that in my list of psychic powers that Dark Angels should have.

Maybe Shackle Soul, and one or two others, could be generic "Angels of Death" powers, rather than Blood Angels specific, and thus Dark Angels would get them- as well as some Dark Angels Only ones?

I also think that because Deathwing and Ravenwing exist for Dark Angels, 'Company Veterans' are still appropriate. They just need to be better. Like Chosen for CSMs.

In Siege of Vraks, at least one of the Dark Angels unit pictures, shows Dark Angel Sternguard Veterans.

So (given that precedent) it might make sense for them to appear in a new Dark Angels codex.

Cheesegear

2010-09-29, 09:07 AM

Lelith is okay, but looks like she should be a normal Wyche model rather than a special character. She's rather bland and not particularly mean looking. It's like GW have tried to make her so obvioucly feminine that they've forgot about everything else. Barefoot on a battlefield? Hmmmm.

I don't even think she looks feminine. Those super-abs and those leg muscles kind of freak me out.

In fact, yes. I'm going to go as far out as saying its one of the worst 'female' models I've ever seen. Lelith is supposed to be Dark Eldar's answer to Jain Zar. And the old model did that perfectly.

I'm going to see if I can get an old model before they all run out...

In Siege of Vraks, at least one of the Dark Angels unit pictures, shows Dark Angel Sternguard Veterans...

We've been over this in this thread a few times; Art is not precedent. The only way that Sternguard in Dark Angels makes sense is if they change the fluff for Dark Angels.
Although I wouldn't be surprised if they did. Given the current state of how GW treats established fluff.

hamishspence

2010-09-29, 09:13 AM

The Blood Angels book did suggest that both the Blood Angels and the Dark Angels pay more attention to the Codex Astartes than, say, the Space Wolves.

Now that the Sternguard/Vanguard split has been applied to the Blood Angels, applying it to the Dark Angels is not that big a leap.

Klose_the_Sith

2010-09-29, 09:16 AM

Well, I'm back from holiday. Looks like I have a 1500 tournament in just over a week. Oh frak.

For my list I still need to ...

Paint my Sternguard + Terminator Librarian
Assemble, Paint a Tactical Squad
Buy, Assemble, Paint a Razorback kit (even though it's becoming a Rhino, free bits are awesome :smallbiggrin:)
Buy, Assemble, Paint another Tactical Squad
Buy, Assemble, Paint a Drop Pod
Buy, Assemble, Paint a Vindicator

Oh man. Emprah save me :smalleek:

This is gonna be a big week.

(By the by - does anyone know where the Assault Marine iconography comes from? The crossed arrows thing, that is. I found a military-style patch which has those same crossed arrows in a junk-shop and bought it for my army-esque shirt, then realised that knowing 40k I'd bought the patch of a jew-eating, bear-raping, Nazi killteam. Can anyone confirm/deny? :smalltongue:)

Cheesegear

2010-09-29, 09:16 AM

The Blood Angels book did suggest that both the Blood Angels and the Dark Angels pay more attention to the Codex Astartes than, say, the Space Wolves.

Everyone does.

Now that the Sternguard/Vanguard split has been applied to the Blood Angels, applying it to the Dark Angels is not that big a leap.

It is when it's been established for years that the DA 1st Company is all Terminators, all the time. There's just no room in the fluff for Stern- and Vanguard.

SmartAlec

2010-09-29, 09:20 AM

Huh. I guess they need better thinktanks, then. I can certainly think of a few directions to go with a Space Dwarf civilization. Oh, well.

Yeah, but not without reworking Squats from the ground up. The need was for them to not be Space Dwarves, just as the Eldar and the Orks aren't Elves and Orcs with spaceships. Those races just needed some tweaks; they were already headed in the right direction. The Squats, though - their whole background was strongly rooted in Warhammer Armies: Dwarfs. The whole thing would have needed rethinking. Even the name would have had to go if they were to be taken seriously. And with Design being Design, they'd have been behind on projects as it was.

hamishspence

2010-09-29, 09:24 AM

It is when it's been established for years that the DA 1st Company is all Terminators, all the time. There's just no room in the fluff for Stern- and Vanguard.

There is if they're simply Company Veterans with different wargear.

The Bolter & Chainsword forum appear to be working on idea for what the Dark Angel codex "should" be- and they seem to think Sternguard & Vanguard make a great deal of sense in giving the other chapters the illusion that the Dark Angels are mostly codex-compliant:

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=210622

Winterwind

2010-09-29, 09:34 AM

Quick rules question: Can a single unit (that is a Troops choice) claim two mission objectives at once, if it is stretched out into a long enough line to reach from one to the other?

banjo1985

2010-09-29, 09:43 AM

Indeed it can, the battle reports in White Dwarf have their units doing it all the time. Someone more prepared than I will come along with a rulebook page number no doubt.

Winterwind

2010-09-29, 10:12 AM

Alright, thanks a lot. :smallsmile:

(Good, so I didn't unintentionally cheat in the last game I had. :smallcool:)

dsmiles

2010-09-29, 10:17 AM

Yeah, but not without reworking Squats from the ground up. The need was for them to not be Space Dwarves, just as the Eldar and the Orks aren't Elves and Orcs with spaceships. Those races just needed some tweaks; they were already headed in the right direction. The Squats, though - their whole background was strongly rooted in Warhammer Armies: Dwarfs. The whole thing would have needed rethinking. Even the name would have had to go if they were to be taken seriously. And with Design being Design, they'd have been behind on projects as it was.

Idunno, Space Dwarves in Steam Suits seem pretty cool to me. I don't know why you couldn't base them off of a 'standard' Dwarven society. In most games, Dwarves are technologically advanced, but stubborn and reluctant to change their societies.
I'm gonna go buy some Dwarves and IG to make some Squats. If I ws a better converter, I'd mod them up some steam suits, too. Writing fluff for them should be fun. Sure, I'll probably never get to play them, but, c'mon. Dwarves in space? Seriously cool. :smallcool:

Ninja Chocobo

2010-09-29, 10:42 AM

I don't even think she looks feminine. Those super-abs and those leg muscles kind of freak me out.

In fact, yes. I'm going to go as far out as saying its one of the worst 'female' models I've ever seen. Lelith is supposed to be Dark Eldar's answer to Jain Zar. And the old model did that perfectly.

Now, I'm curious.
What exactly were you expecting from a character who has spent the last, what, ten millennia training and fighting while almost constantly hopped up on space ampheta-roids? Not muscles?

hamishspence

2010-09-29, 10:51 AM

I'm curious about that Craftworld Eldar Jetbike prototype pic:

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=187979&st=300

roughly half-way down the page.

I doubt there'll be a new codex soon- but maybe there will be new models?

On Lelith- are there any good closeups of the original version to compare it to?

SmartAlec

2010-09-29, 10:53 AM

I actually think moving away from the slim-and-lithe Craftworld Eldar image is a good idea; the Dark Eldar need some visual cues of their own beyond having blades everywhere. Having them look a little more muscular seems to make sense, to me. They're full-time raiders, gladiators and pirates, unlike the citizen-soldiers of the Craftworlds.

Edit: This shows most of the detail of the old model: http://coolminiornot.com/pics/pics7/img40bde5289d342.jpg . I admit I never liked this one; the pose looked unnatural, the weapons too bulky and heavy...

onasuma

2010-09-29, 10:57 AM

dsmiles

2010-09-29, 11:00 AM

Myshlaevsky

2010-09-29, 11:53 AM

I read that lilith wasnt going to have combat drugs this addition. If its true I will cry - alot.

Also, am I the only person on the entire internet who actually liked grotesques and mandrakes? Mandrakes especially were amazing for contesting objectives if you got the second turn. You would ensure your opponent misses an objective for 75 points. They were great.

Oh and anyone know what this nonsense about incubi not being bodyguards anymore, but being refluffed as assassins? I dont like that either (or the fact they have horns).

And Harlequins. Why do we need them? Just use wyches with the harly models if you're that desperate - I really dont see the dark eldar just not eating them.

What do I like... hmm... Models. Ignore the new codex, just give me the models. Oh and hydra gauntlets. Base +1 for charging +1d6 attacks on a squad in transports with a potential 36" move. Guess Ill start a wych cult. Without Lilith. I agree, the model is vomit worthy.

She probably will have combat drugs. It's simply that this has become an army-wide attribute rather than a roll for each individual or individual squad.

Haven't heard that Incubi are assassins now. Have heard they are more generally mercenaries rather than specifically bodyguards. They're supposedly no longer only selectable as a retinue - now they take up a general Elites slot.

Harlequins work with all the groups of Eldar in the fluff. This is probably why they have been included in the new Dark Eldar codex. I agree I can't see them winning out over other options in an army which is apparently going to have an abundance of Elites choices. Between Incubi, Elite Wyches and Elite Warriors I'm not sure how many people will choose to incorporate Harlequins. However, they are apparently getting their own transport (the Venom) and all the transports available to them in the Dark Eldar codex will probably be open-topped. This may help them as a unit. Lastly, I can see them being nice from a visual perspective as the colour scheme on the Harlequins will most likely be different to that on the rest of the army.

They also put paid to those frequent accusations of Chaos Eldar.

crazedloon

2010-09-29, 12:05 PM

I read that lilith wasnt going to have combat drugs this addition. If its true I will cry - alot.
this would make me vary upset since that is the wych fluff :smallconfused:

Also, am I the only person on the entire internet who actually liked grotesques and mandrakes? Mandrakes especially were amazing for contesting objectives if you got the second turn. You would ensure your opponent misses an objective for 75 points. They were great.

I loved the deployment mechanic of mandrakes and the nigh unkillability of grotesques (thus the reason I have some of each) but they fill the same slot as wyches or warriors with cheap heavy weapons and thierfor are never worth the slot

Oh and anyone know what this nonsense about incubi not being bodyguards anymore, but being refluffed as assassins? I dont like that either (or the fact they have horns).
hmm asssassins are a no go in fluff without a full reworking

however I want and would like them as an elite slot or separate unit as they should be. Dark eldar lords like combat as much as the next DE but they do not like to risk themselves and as such send their elite mercs in to kill the hard targets and do not tag along for the ride. Indeed there is a fluff passage about just this where Incubi butcher scorpions

And Harlequins. Why do we need them? Just use wyches with the harly models if you're that desperate - I really dont see the dark eldar just not eating them.

because that is the fluff :smallconfused:

also my hope is a full switch of wych to troop choice since there is the new abundance of elites (incubi and harlequins most notably) and I would say they are actually quite good as an elite choice for their points even without rule changes.

Myshlaevsky

2010-09-29, 12:18 PM

also my hope is a full switch of wych to troop choice since there is the new abundance of elites (incubi and harlequins most notably) and I would say they are actually quite good as an elite choice for their points even without rule changes.

I hesitate to say anything is 'confirmed' about a codex still to be released but all the information I have heard from people who attended Games Day suggests that Wyches are now a Troops choice, along with Warriors. There is a very strong suggestion that stronger versions of both (Wyches with an improved statline; Warriors with an improved statline and better weapons) will also be selectable as Elites choices. This doesn't seem to affect your ability to select them as Troops as well.

hamishspence

2010-09-29, 12:39 PM

I've just looked Lelith up in the old Codex Dark Eldar- she never had Combat drugs in the first place.

Only ordinary Wyches, Reavers, and Hellions get them as standard- Archites and Dracites have to pay for them from their wargear allowance.

And in Lelith's entry, no mention is made of Combat Drugs.

Tren

2010-09-29, 12:40 PM

I've just looked Lelith up in the old Codex Dark Eldar- she never had Combat drugs in the first place.

It's in the FAQ.

this would make me vary upset since that is the wych fluff :smallconfused:

"The rest of her is really stripped back; barefoot, with much less armour than the ordinary Wyches, armed with just two of the cult knives and no combat enhancers, we wanted to imply that she was so deadly that she needed none of those things. With more of her skin showing she would contrast well with the rank and file of the army. Juan really hit this one out of the park, one of the nicest female models we've ever made."

So badass she doesn't need the drugs? Works for me.

Zorg

2010-09-29, 01:01 PM

I like Lelith and the Wyches, athletic and sleek, but still femenine. Lelith probably could have done with less extreme shading though.
I also like the Raider sails! I think I'll be starting a DE force, much like everyone else :smallwink:

Wow, according to today's What's New (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/blogPost.jsp?aId=13000010a) (they have Jes Goodwin updating with design stuff each day this week - good reads if you're not already reading) the new raider has an extendable gang-plank! Also all the crew heads and torsos are interchangeable between the Warrior and Wych kits, so if you really like one for a squad leader it won't need a lot of extra cutting to fit it on :)

Also, have a look at the last picture on the What's New - the new Ravager can be seen in the background.

And some rules rumours:

Rules

Allows for Kabal, Wych Cult and Homunculus armies

All old units appear in this codex plus there are 3-5 new units

Army-wide special rules:
Night Vision - Acute Senses USR

Strength Through Pain – Most standard Dark Eldar Infantry units will have this rule, although some of the more out there ones will not. The unit gains an upgrade every time it wipes out an enemy unit (3 max). 1st Feel No Pain, 2nd Furious Charge, 3rd Fearless.

Combat Drugs – Supposedly features mostly on Wych Cult units. Roll once. All units with the Combat Drugs rule get the same benefit. One result confers a free pain point.

Weapons:

Splinter Rifle 24″ SX, AP5, Rapid Fire, Poisoned.

Shard Carbine 18″ SX, AP5, Assault 3, Poisoned.

Splinter Cannon 36″ SX, AP5, Assault 4, or Heavy 6 Poisoned.

Splinter Pods – an underslung weapon for the Hellions similar to the carbine

Blasters - Now 18″ range

- Some FOC slots are subject to change -

HQ
Archon
WS/BS: 7 S/T/W: 3 I: 7 A: 3or4? Ld: 9 or 10? Save: 5+
Can take a wargear item the effect of which is that if he kills an enemy MC or SC in close combat he doubles his Strength to 6. If he kills another one, he doubles his Strength to 10. Can have a Blaster, or Blaster Pistol.

Asdrubal Vect
Some have said he no longer rides a Raider, but I have also heard he does and his throne fits nicely in the spot where the sail goes on the new kit. This implies no new model. Personally, I think the new kit would look a little silly without the sail.

Haemonculus
May confer a free pain point on units they attach to.

Elites
Harlequins
Identical to the Codex: Eldar entry

Mandrakes
Have a shooting attack that gets stronger with every kill they make

Incubi
T3, S3, 2A 3+ sv
Incubus, Klavex
Klaives (?) – Power weapons that add +1S
Hand Flamers – As per Blood Angels. It is unclear if this is an option or a standard bit of kit.
Squad leader has WS5, A3 and can take Demiklaves, 2 smaller blades that either give him +2 attacks or +2S (both are Power Weapons). Also provides himself and his squad with the ability to roll another attack for each 6 to hit they roll. This is supposedly unlimited. Some talk of the squad leader conferring prefered enemy to his unit when fighting units with an independant or special character

Kabalite Trueborn
Possibly have the Dracon as an upgrade

Elite Wyches
Proper name unknown but possibly Hekatrix Bloodbrides or Syrens

Troops
Kabalite Warriors
Stats are the same. Armed with Splinter Rifle only. Sybarite

Wyches
Stats are the same. Retain 4+ dodge save in CC. Combat Drugs
Unit includes: Wych, Hekatrix, Hekatrix Bloodbride, Syren (all have different stats/options)
Wych weapons
- Shardnet reduces A of all enemies in B2B by 1.
- Hydra Gauntlets give +D6A for 2 CCW instead of +1
- A “chain-of-blades weapon” that gives +2A, and re-rolls to hit and to wound.

Fast Attack
Reaver Jetbikes
T4, 5+ save, can Turbo-boost 36″.
Reavers and Arena Champion
Armed with Splinter Rifles, monofilament blades and Combat Drugs
Can perform a “fly-by” attack on enemy units without becoming locked in close combat.
Have several upgrades to their monofilament blades that inflict different numbers of S3/4/6 hits on units when performing the fly by attack. One option causes Pinning.
The jetbike gives +1 sv and +1T
Possibly get a S6 (some say 8) melta-lance weapon

Beast Masters
Get more types of beasts

Heavy Support
Scourges
Can supposedly take Haywire Grenade Launchers

Ravager
Fast, skimmer, open-topped AV 11 11 10
Armed with 3 Dark Lances as standard and can fire all 3 at cruising speed

Grotesques
Apparently changed to Ogryn-sized creatures
There will still be human-sized Homunculus constructs, but they will have a different name

Talos
One version like the one we already know, and another weaker but cheaper version

Razorwing
Nothing else yet

Transports
Raider
Fast, skimmer, open-topped AV 10 10 10
Has upgrades for a 5+ invulnerable (not cover) save and another that gives an extra 2D6″ movement.

Venom
Transport capacity 6

Closet_Skeleton

2010-09-29, 01:13 PM

It is when it's been established for years that the DA 1st Company is all Terminators, all the time. There's just no room in the fluff for Stern- and Vanguard.

According to the 2nd edition books I was reading, the Ultramarines and Blood Angels chapters have a first company consisting entirely of Terminators as well, they just don't always deploy as terminators. Ultramarine termies sometimes deploying as veteran tactical marines and Blood Angels ones being special and sometimes deploying as veteran assault marines. Dark Angels are special in that they only got terminator armoured veterans. Except that all of their special characters had the Deathwing rule despite all wearing power armour in regular colours.

Since Blood Angels and Codex marines both get Sternguard and Vanguard, that's a differance that has disappeared.

I've heard that there's also a more recent source that confirms the Blood Angels as being able to field 100 terminators. Space Hulk maybe?

Ravenwing aren't technically special, since Codex chapters have their 6th and 7th companies. Ravenwing just get the unique uniforms, skills and company number in comparison. Since Dark Angels don't get non-Deathwing bikes or speeders, the Dark Angels technically have fewer bikes and landspeeders than every other chapter.

Standard chapter:
2 assault marine squads in each tactical company that can ride bikes and landspeeders. Each bike squad has 8 bikes +1 attack bike=9*4=36 bikes
6th company of reserve tactical marines who can all ride bikes
90 bikes
So that's 126 bikes across all companies.

Dark Angels
10 Deathwing squads, each containing 6 bikers +1 attack bike
10*7=70 bikes in the Raven Wing.

So the Dark Angels have just over half the number of bikes as a codex chapter. Which is possibly why they make sure those bikers are the most elite bikers possible.

Apparently Flesh Tearers also get company veterans, as their numbers are too small to maintain a first company.

And Harlequins. Why do we need them? Just use wyches with the harly models if you're that desperate - I really dont see the dark eldar just not eating them.

Eldar don't exactly need Harlequins either.

Harlequins are kind of neutral and outsiders, so it doesn't exactly conflict anything for Dark Eldar to get them.

Wraith

2010-09-29, 01:51 PM

It's just that the new players, who have no idea, don't even want the Master of the Forge, Conversion Beamer and all. The Captain, Chaplain and Librarian are all better choices. Even to a ten year-old kid. Now that tells you something, right there. :smallwink:

I agree with just about everything you've said, Cheesegear, but I would just like to point out one small thing you haven't mentioned if I may?

No one takes a Master of the Forge in order to have a Master of the Forge. People take a Master of the Forge in order to take lots and lots of Dreadnoughts. :smallbiggrin:

I'm not saying it's universal, but it does work. It happened to me, after all :smalltongue:

(By the by - does anyone know where the Assault Marine iconography comes from? The crossed arrows thing, that is. I found a military-style patch which has those same crossed arrows in a junk-shop and bought it for my army-esque shirt, then realised that knowing 40k I'd bought the patch of a jew-eating, bear-raping, Nazi killteam. Can anyone confirm/deny? :smalltongue:)

The stylised version of two crossed arrows is for the U.S. Special Forces (http://images5.cpcache.com/product/275752555v2_480x480_Front.jpg). I doubt that it was deliberate, but if it was then it's appearance on Assault Marines is reasonably appropriate. :smallsmile:

Klose_the_Sith

2010-09-29, 03:07 PM

The stylised version of two crossed arrows is for the U.S. Special Forces (http://images5.cpcache.com/product/275752555v2_480x480_Front.jpg). I doubt that it was deliberate, but if it was then it's appearance on Assault Marines is reasonably appropriate. :smallsmile:

Interesting, but not actually what I had :smallwink:

What I've got is quite literally the iconography of an assault squad, just with a dagger buried within one of the arrows. I've no idea where it came from or who might have made it ... maybe just a dedicated fellow gamer? :smallbiggrin:

I can potentially upload, for clarification.

Cheesegear

2010-09-29, 05:42 PM

I don't know why you couldn't base them off of a 'standard' Dwarven society.

Because that's exactly what GW had before. And it's exactly what they didn't want. They did not want 'Dwarves in Space'. Which is exactly what the Squats were, and they were terrible (read; Boring).

Now, I'm curious.
What exactly were you expecting from a character who has spent the last, what, ten millennia training and fighting while almost constantly hopped up on space ampheta-roids? Not muscles?

Not something that looks a transvestite on roid-rage...

Something like her picture that already exists in the current Dark Eldar Codex? Sleek, sexy and deadly. Dark Eldar personified.

I'd definitley have to pick the new one. It looks more demented and EVIL than the old one. Aren't DE supposed to be/look EVIL?

/sigh. No.

Stuff

The only new models that I like are the new Warriors. The Raider is starting to grow on me. The sail still looks out of place to me though.

Strength Through Pain – Most standard Dark Eldar Infantry units will have this rule, although some of the more out there ones will not. The unit gains an upgrade every time it wipes out an enemy unit (3 max). 1st Feel No Pain, 2nd Furious Charge, 3rd Fearless.

This will be mostly useless against Space Marines and Horde armies. It's a good idea, sure. But, it's nowhere near as good as I expect people think it will be.

What happens when you wipe out a unit via Shooting? I assume its meant for Assault-based armies...

Weapons:

Do we know if Splinter weapons are Poisoned (4+), or Poisoned (2+), or something else? With my main opponents being Tyranids and Eldar I think Splinter weapons will start wrecking things.

I might start for a Warrior-army. Because I pretty much hate everything else that they've brought out.

Archon
WS/BS: 7 S/T/W: 3 I: 7 A: 3or4? Ld: 9 or 10? Save: 5+
Can take a wargear item the effect of which is that if he kills an enemy MC or SC in close combat he doubles his Strength to 6. If he kills another one, he doubles his Strength to 10. Can have a Blaster, or Blaster Pistol.

He'll need Eternal Warrior for that wargear to be any good at all. Or, at least some way to Instant Death things, or the wargear will never process.

...Going through everything else in the list...I'm staying away from the models I don't like. Mainly Lelith and the new Wyches.

According to the 2nd edition books I was reading, the Ultramarines and Blood Angels chapters have a first company consisting entirely of Terminators as well, they just don't always deploy as terminators.

Ultramarines and Blood Angels are not Dark Angels.

Dark Angels are special in that they only got terminator armoured veterans. Except that all of their special characters had the Deathwing rule despite all wearing power armour in regular colours.

Dark Angel characters are not Deathwing currently. They've just been in the Deathwing before.

I've heard that there's also a more recent source that confirms the Blood Angels as being able to field 100 terminators. Space Hulk maybe?

They can. But, again, you're citing Blood Angels fluff. Not Dark Angels fluff. All Terminators, all the time. You can't be a Dark Angel in the 1st Company and not wear Terminator Armour. Once you're not in Terminator Armour, you're either super-amazing Inner Circle, or you're breaking the fluff.

Ravenwing aren't technically special, since Codex chapters have their 6th and 7th companies.

We already knew that, didn't we? Dark Angels have always been a Codex Chapter with their 2nd and 6th Companies switched around for some reason.

No one takes a Master of the Forge in order to have a Master of the Forge. People take a Master of the Forge in order to take lots and lots of Dreadnoughts. :smallbiggrin:

Yeah, I get that. That was just part of the point that I didn't mention.

There aren't too many new players, or even, all that many competitive players that want to take six Dreadnoughts. No matter which way you look at it. The benefit that the Master of the Forge gives, people don't want. Because anything else is better and/or more attractive.

Hey, New Kid! How much money do you have?
Well my Mum gave me-
Shut up! You don't know what you want. Buy six Dreadnoughts! That's like, 700 points right there. Buy the Master of the Forge. 850 Points! Awesome man! You don't even have any Troops yet. 150 Points, eh? Two minimum squads of Scouts. Wicked! This is totally what new players to the game want to be doing. This list is totally awesome man!

Cristo Meyers

2010-09-29, 05:49 PM

-Dark Eldar-

I remember seeing a rumour about the Splinter weapons gaining Poisoned Weapons, should be interesting to see how it plays out on the field.

I actually like the new Incubi models, even with the goofy-ish looking power swords. Raider-sail kinda bugs me, but at least it will make it easier to determine which raider goes with which squad (as if it actually matters).

Be happy with what you've got. Because you can always get a Jetbike. :smallamused:

Ow...the reference, it burns...:smalltongue:

Closet_Skeleton

2010-09-29, 05:58 PM

They can. But, again, you're citing Blood Angels fluff. Not Dark Angels fluff. All Terminators, all the time.

Not to prove a point about Dark Angels. In fact, I wasn't really making a point, which ended up making my post confusing.

You can't be a Dark Angel in the 1st Company and not wear Terminator Armour.

I said that.

Dark Angels are special in that they only got terminator armoured veterans.

Exactly in the same bit of text you quoted.

I just got a bit confused by the Inner Circle guys. Who aren't 1st Company because they're part of the command structure, not the company structure, but still benefit from being/having been Deathwing.

Not something that looks a transvestite

Problem with this is that a fetishised overly feminine warrior isn't exactly realistic.

If you show muscular women you break the viewer's expectations of femininity, but that's pretty much the viewer's fault (but also excusable due to social pressure). There's no reason why a gladiator wouldn't have obvious muscles.

Muscular =! male

on roid-rage...

Aren't Dark Eldar Wyches supposed to be drugged up psychos?

Tren

2010-09-29, 05:59 PM

Do we know if Splinter weapons are Poisoned (4+), or Poisoned (2+), or something else? With my main opponents being Tyranids and Eldar I think Splinter weapons will start wrecking things.

Most people who claim to have heard it at Gamesday are saying 4+, with the splinter cannon being poisoned 4+ assault 4 or heavy 6.

He'll need Eternal Warrior for that wargear to be any good at all. Or, at least some way to Instant Death things, or the wargear will never process

Supposedly Phil Kelly was assuring people at GD that the Shadowfield remains unaltered in the new codex, so that should give him a bit of staying power. I'm curious myself what his weapon options will look like, and if he has any chance of actually killing an IC or MC in order for the S doubling abililty to go off.

Wraith

2010-09-29, 06:02 PM

There aren't too many new players, or even, all that many competitive players that want to take six Dreadnoughts. No matter which way you look at it. The benefit that the Master of the Forge gives, people don't want. Because anything else is better and/or more attractive.

You're right. And I'm not saying it's big, nor am I saying it's clever. Heck, I'm not even saying that it's sensible - it'd just about work 'properly' at 1750 points, and even then you'd have a terrifyingly small amount of Troops to actually try and play the game with.

But it *is* fun and sometimes that's all I want from a game. You should know by now that I don't play any list (Dreadnought-Heavy Marines, Wraith-Eldar, Pure Grey Knights) because I think I'll win with them. :smallbiggrin:

Closet_Skeleton

2010-09-29, 06:05 PM

I'd rather they gave Dark Eldar characters the ability to pwn the slow enemies capable of ID them rather than hand out Eternal Warrior like candy. Pity the T3 makes them vulnerable to non-slow weapons like relic blades.

Yes ID can make characters useless, but that's kind of the point of ID. If the designers are going to throw everyone Eternal Warrior because they don't like the idea of characters dying they should just cut out the ID rule already.

SmartAlec

2010-09-29, 06:11 PM

Not something that looks a transvestite on roid-rage...

Something like her picture that already exists in the current Dark Eldar Codex? Sleek, sexy and deadly. Dark Eldar personified.

You mean this?

http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/4993/180pxhesperax2.jpg

I dunno; there's some pretty well-defined abs and muscles in that pic. She looks like an athelete, which is a look I think the new model follows and the old model doesn't.

In any case, sleek? Sexy? The Dark Eldar? Are you sure? That seems more like the Craftworld Eldar's thing - clean, sleek lines, curves, and so on. The Dark Eldar are all jagged edges and implied brutality.

Edit: Try looking at the other picture of the model on the GW site - the one of the mould original. It's shown from the front, and the details aren't as exaggerated. See if it still bothers you.

Cheesegear

2010-09-29, 06:11 PM

Muscular =! male

Well that wasn't what I said at all. Maybe it is as Zorg said, and it's the crazy amount of shading that they did for the stock model.

Look at Lelith's picture in the Codex. Look at the model that they've brought out. Spot the difference. I think the thing that pisses me off the most, is the bare feet.

Trixie

2010-09-29, 07:17 PM

I don't hang out in GW some days on my periodical Build-A-Thons kitbashing Dark Angel veterans with various Chaos Bits to make Word Bearers (only to realise, about two days later, that I shouldn't be taking normal CSM squads, still, they look cool, I made them, after all).

Regular Chaos SM. Why would anyone take them? Well, maybe to combine them with Fabius Bile? For +3 pts a model, you get S5/S6 on your troops - who need Furious Charge then? :smalltongue:

Ok, with unlucky rolls, a bit more than +3 pts. Still, for less than regular SM marines cost, you get something rivaling Grey Knights for 2/3 of the price, and you could take it in mobs 20 strong, with icon, eating 30 strong ork mobs for breakfast. On paper, it sounds very nice :P

And Fabius isn't that bad of a HQ himself. S5, A6, Feel no Pain, permanent Force Weapon - for the points he is a steal.

"The rest of her is really stripped back; barefoot, with much less armour than the ordinary Wyches, armed with just two of the cult knives and no combat enhancers, we wanted to imply that she was so deadly that she needed none of those things. With more of her skin showing she would contrast well with the rank and file of the army. Juan really hit this one out of the park, one of the nicest female models we've ever made."

So badass she doesn't need the drugs? Works for me.

So much this. The new Lelith actually looks like alien, Eldar warrior that spent last millenia fighting.

With all the oomphs about the old model, I had to check if my memory isn't failing me, but no. It's this one (http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1250345_99060112032_DEHesperaxmain_873x627.jpg).

...

...seriously, guys? It's so atrociously ugly I have no idea what it is supposed to be. It's like Tyrannid/Little Mermaid crossover. In both looks and in spirit. What?

The only thing that model invokes is 'hey, look at absurdly oversized weapons!' which is saying something as it was made in an era before anime. It has no sleekness, sexiness, strength, agility, nothing. It wouldn't look out of place in Disney movie.

Hey, New Kid! How much money do you have?
Well my Mum gave me-
Shut up! You don't know what you want. Buy six Dreadnoughts! That's like, 700 points right there. Buy the Master of the Forge. 850 Points! Awesome man! You don't even have any Troops yet. 150 Points, eh? Two minimum squads of Scouts. Wicked! This is totally what new players to the game want to be doing. This list is totally awesome man!

Yeah, right, if the kid wanted to start Space Wolves would these guys advise him to buy 3 full units of Thunderwolves (1500 pts right here) to be Awesome?

*cough* Strawman *cough*

Especially the part about Chaplains/Captains being better than MotF. Better, these two aint, unless used in very specialized melee way. But then, you could argue Land Raider is useless as it has zero attacks in melee.

Lycan 01

2010-09-29, 07:36 PM

Trixie I don't think you ever answered my question about Chaos Marines and Deathwatch. :smallconfused:

Closet_Skeleton

2010-09-29, 07:37 PM

Well that wasn't what I said at all.

You said she looked like a transvestite on steroids. Since steroids are usually thought of as building muscles and transvestitism means "dressed like the wrong gender" and I could only assume you thought she was too muscular and masculine.

Look at Lelith's picture in the Codex. Look at the model that they've brought out. Spot the difference.

Presumably the new codex will have a differant picture.

Look at the current Vampire Counts special character models, look at the old ones. Dark Eldar and their minor appearance retcons have no right to complain in comparison.

On the 40k side of things, just compare the new Lemartes to his old Disco version.

I think the thing that pisses me off the most, is the bare feet.

Why? People go bare-foot in plenty of traditional sports. Roman Gladiators were occaisonally depicted barefoot and that's what Wyches are supposed to be drugged up space elf equivilants to.

Arcanoi

2010-09-29, 07:58 PM

Regular Chaos SM. Why would anyone take them? Well, maybe to combine them with Fabius Bile? For +3 pts a model, you get S5/S6 on your troops - who need Furious Charge then? :smalltongue:

Ok, with unlucky rolls, a bit more than +3 pts. Still, for less than regular SM marines cost, you get something rivaling Grey Knights for 2/3 of the price, and you could take it in mobs 20 strong, with icon, eating 30 strong ork mobs for breakfast. On paper, it sounds very nice :P

No Initiative Boost from Furious Charge. Still WS4. Less A. If you want equal A, you get to pay 21pts a model, with a 1/3 chance that you'll lose a crapload of models. Biled Space Marines are not equal to Berzerkers.

No True Grit or any of the other awesome Grey Knight rules. S5 on average, still WS4. Again, less A. They aren't Grey Knights either. There's alot more to Grey Knights that +2S Space Marines.

And Fabius isn't that bad of a HQ himself. S5, A6, Feel no Pain, permanent Force Weapon - for the points he is a steal.

He is that bad. S5 is great, sure. A6 is nice. Everything else about him is worse than a regular Chaos Lord. Feel No Pain is worthless on an HQ, since any allocated attacks will ignore saves anyway. His attacks might inflict instant death, but they don't even ignore saves. The Rod Of Torment is just a CCW. He doesn't even get the 5++ save that every other Chaos HQ gets.

Ninja Chocobo

2010-09-29, 10:29 PM

Look at Lelith's picture in the Codex. Look at the model that they've brought out. Spot the difference. I think the thing that pisses me off the most, is the bare feet.

Ooh, I'm good at spot the difference.
Hmmm.
1. Her boobs aren't hanging out.
2. Her weapon is slightly different.
3. She's not wearing a helmet.
4. Bare feet.

One Step Two

2010-09-29, 10:37 PM

I think it's the lack of helmet, Cheese hates characters vulnreble to head-shots, and vaccum.

Cheesegear

2010-09-30, 01:28 AM

Yeah, right, if the kid wanted to start Space Wolves would these guys advise him to buy 3 full units of Thunderwolves (1500 pts right here) to be Awesome?

No. A new player has no business making 3 units of Thunderwolves. Hell, even the competitive players are starting to stop doing that. Mainly because every time you play with 15+ Thunderwolves, you're pretty much playing Noob-Hammer, and that's lame.

I think it's the lack of helmet, Cheese hates characters vulnerable to head-shots, and vaccum.

Sometimes I laugh when people who I don't even know can point out my idiosyncrasies. On the other hand, it kind of shows how much time I spend here. And that makes me sad at myself.

lord_khaine

2010-09-30, 02:44 AM

As a Eldar player i cant help but think an entire army where the basic weapons are poisoned is a bit unfair towards my wraithlords, stupid Dark Eldars!

Klose_the_Sith

2010-09-30, 03:22 AM

As a Eldar player i cant help but think an entire army where the basic weapons are poisoned is a bit unfair towards my wraithlords, stupid Dark Eldars!

Don't sweat it too much, they won't be updated for another twenty years after this ... plenty of time to adapt :smallamused:

hamishspence

2010-09-30, 03:42 AM

Which is why they need to update it :smalltongue: They've updated the Tyranids, Orks, Dark Eldar (eventually), Eldar, Daemons, Necrons (to a degree). The only ones who haven't seen any major reworking are the Imperials and the spikey Imperials.

That Cadians are the most boring is a travesty. Imagine if Coke's main line was the worst of the varieties out there - they tried that (New Coke) and it was an epic disaster. Having the main/poster branding of a line (in this case the IG) being the blandest, dullest is horrible. Sure people rag on Ultras all the time, but that's their background they hate on, not the design of their armour.

On updating the Imperial Guard range- what I think would be interesting, would be if they designed two basic Guard kits- which were each both customizable enough to make four different regiments.

They would be "Longcoats" and "Short-sleeves"

Longcoats, would be basically Cadian style armour, with a Valhallan style longcoat open at the front. There would be four different types of head- Valhallan (furry hat), Armageddon (gas mask), Cadian (helmet), Mordian (peaked cap).

Short-sleeves, would be shirt, with armour front and back (so not just a T-shirt any more) and typically, smaller gun (maybe bullpup?) cradled in the right arm, with knife in the left hand. There would be four different types of head- Tallarn (scarves) Catachan (bandanna) Tanith (long hair, beards on males) and Penal Legion (shaved head, collar).

There would also be female style heads, on some of the Longcoats, and possibly female style bodies as well, on the Short-sleeves.

This would, I think, maximize customizability of armies.

One Step Two

2010-09-30, 04:14 AM

On updating the Imperial Guard range- what I think would be interesting, would be if they designed two basic Guard kits- which were each both customizable enough to make four different regiments.

They would be "Longcoats" and "Short-sleeves"

Longcoats, would be basically Cadian style armour, with a Valhallan style longcoat open at the front. There would be four different types of head- Valhallan (furry hat), Armageddon (gas mask), Cadian (helmet), Mordian (peaked cap).

Short-sleeves, would be shirt, with armour front and back (so not just a T-shirt any more) and typically, smaller gun (maybe bullpup?) cradled in the right arm, with knife in the left hand. There would be four different types of head- Tallarn (scarves) Catachan (bandanna) Tanith (long hair, beards on males) and Penal Legion (shaved head, collar).

There would also be female style heads, on some of the Longcoats, and possibly female style bodies as well, on the Short-sleeves.

This would, I think, maximize customizability of armies.

I do like this idea, I really really do, but what you're asking, is for there to be nearly a dozen extra bitz in every box, if not out-right doubling the amount of minis in the box itself. And that sort of.... inefficency? I think thats the word I want. Yeah, that sort of inefficency in a box of minis wont fly for GW.

Sometimes I laugh when people who I don't even know can point out my idiosyncrasies. On the other hand, it kind of shows how much time I spend here. And that makes me sad at myself.

You have been very vocal about it in the past. I'd dig up the post references, but I'm lazy. Also, I used to spend alot of time in the GW Brisbane City store, we may have met at some stage in the past.

hamishspence

2010-09-30, 04:18 AM

The only extra bits in the Longcoats box would be heads.

And the only extra bits in in the Short-sleeves box would be heads and cloaks (female bodies, if any, would not be in addition to male bodies.

GW has tended to include more heads in, for example, Chaos Terminator boxes, Chaos Spaces Marine boxes, etc than there are bodies (though admittedly not 4 heads for every body- and more for champions than ordinary guys.)

One Step Two

2010-09-30, 04:26 AM

Ah I understand, enough bits to make it look more dynamic. You're right though, Imperial guard do look a little bland, every model is exactly the same. Variation would be nice. But they may have been looking at it form a train of thought similar to: "Some poor dude needs to paint 50 of these, do we really want to make it more difficult by making every other guardsman different?"

Nothing as specific, variation would have been lovely when you need to paint dozens of men the same way.

hamishspence

2010-09-30, 04:40 AM

Possible ways of minimising expense- design special and heavy weapons in such a way as to ensure you only need the one sprue which is the same for both different Guard kits.

So- if you by a Longcoat Heavy weapon box- you'd get a Generic Heavy Weapon sprue, and a sprue with a pair of Longcoat Heavy Weapon Crew.

If you buy a Shortsleeves Heavy weapon box- different crew, same weapon sprue.

Same would apply to special weapons- in both boxes is the same sprue with special weapons on (the special weapon is attached to the hand with the handle, that comes on the trooper sprue.)

I would go back to the old 2nd edition style for flamers- no backpack, just a flamer with a reasonably large tank underneath.

Nothing as specific, variation would have been lovely when you need to paint dozens of men the same way.

Come to think of it, if the heads are all on a Head Sprue that has nothing else, you could make your army a little different by buying one type of box, and ordering the Head Sprue for the other type.

So- you could have what look like Catachans, but with furry hats. Or vice versa.

Winterwind

2010-09-30, 07:09 AM

GW has tended to include more heads in, for example, Chaos Terminator boxes, Chaos Spaces Marine boxes, etc than there are bodies (though admittedly not 4 heads for every body- and more for champions than ordinary guys.)Wood Elf Glade Guard boxes do include 4 heads for every body, as well as far, far more extra bits than you could possibly ever use up on each sprue. So, it's not without precedent. :smallwink:

hamishspence

2010-09-30, 07:12 AM

Winterwind

2010-09-30, 07:53 AM

I suppose the "similar bodies, different heads" theme might lead to people complaining that the different regiments look too similar.

Still, two or three variants of body might be enough for an adequate level of differentiation- especially with good paint schemes.In the Wood Elf box, this is solved by giving a selection of both bodies already having their arms attached, and bodies that consist only of torsos, with a selection of various arms holding either bows, swords or nothing at all included. And the bodies are separate from the legs. All this allows for a reasonably large range of possible positioning.

Catachans with body armour (albiet only a cuirass rather than shoulder pads and helmet as well)- would that be a good idea? (Since the Catachans would be made from "generic short-sleeved guys" who still wear body armour, just less of it.)As long as it's not too massive and leaves the arms completely free, I think it wouldn't interfere too badly with the Catachan image.

Cheesegear

2010-09-30, 08:15 AM

Catachans with body armour (albiet only a cuirass rather than shoulder pads and helmet as well)- would that be a good idea?

You mean like what happens already when you kit-bash the two existing boxes of Guard? :smallconfused:

hamishspence

2010-09-30, 08:35 AM

Only without the kit-bashing- the guy appears to be wearing a shirt with body armour over it, but not long sleeves- and the armour is less bulky than standard Cadian armour.

Might capture the Catachan style, without making them look like they wear no armour whatsoever. Plus, with different heads, you can have Penal Legion, Tallarns, and (with cloaks as well) Tanith.

Zorg's comment was basically "The Guard and Space Marines need a looks update" and for the Guard, Catachans might be a place to start (by giving them a bit more armour and slightly more futuristic-looking guns).

Giving the Cadians longcoats would also make a difference to their looks.

Ninja Chocobo

2010-09-30, 09:43 AM

I think it's the lack of helmet, Cheese hates characters vulnreble to head-shots, and vaccum.

I hardly think that is the least of her problems.

Wraith

2010-09-30, 01:03 PM

As a Eldar player i cant help but think an entire army where the basic weapons are poisoned is a bit unfair towards my wraithlords, stupid Dark Eldars!

To be fair, that's put them on a very prestigious list along with Space Marine Snipers, Eldar Snipers (!) and a dedicated Nurgle Army - almost none of which get used unless in ultra competitive Tournaments and at least one of which might get a forced rewrite under such circumstance. I don't think it's going to be an epidemic of dead Wraithlords outside of the initial Dark Eldar launch popularity, and even then they're only AP5.... :smalltongue:
If anything, Wraithlord need more foils like this - For their points cost they're very, very good and have been so uninterrupted for a very long time.

Having said that...

If disapproving people can go "Wraithlord are broken because of A, B and C" and we True Believers can counter right back with "Ah, but they're vulnerable to X, Y and Z", then that's 'balance', of a sort.
Both are shallow, childish arguments used in a vacuum and once they've canceled each other out we can go right on using our 100pt MVPs in triplicate, and blame our opponent for not preparing their army properly! Genius, right? :smallbiggrin:

Sometimes I laugh when people who I don't even know can point out my idiosyncrasies. On the other hand, it kind of shows how much time I spend here. And that makes me sad at myself.

For what it's worth, I agree with you for all your reasons and more.

I'm struggling to put it into words, but there's something about the new Lelith model that's just.... dull. It's an unarmoured humanoid in little clothing and armed with a pair of generic knives. Forget fluff, or Cat-Girl murdering comparisons to Real Life - it's a bland model with almost no defining features or decoration to make it stand out from the other semi-clothed, knife-wielding models around it.
Whoopee. Can't wait to break out my paintbrush and have a go at all those intricate little details that have been lovingly sculpted over a period of weeks. </sarcasm> :smallconfused:

Zorg

2010-09-30, 02:18 PM

Can't wait to break out my paintbrush and have a go at all those intricate little details that have been lovingly sculpted over a period of weeks. </sarcasm> :smallconfused:

Then break out the brushes and give her some full body tattoos - that'll make her stand out!

Edit: Crap. Now I'm going to have to do that as I think it'll look freaking awesome. Thanks a lot Wraith :smalltongue:

Edit edit:
You mean like what happens already when you kit-bash the two existing boxes of Guard? :smallconfused:

Catachans and Cadians don't fit together very well as the Catachans have their belts on the leg pieces, while Cadians have them on their torsos, so it's a huge PitA to get them together. That is unless you like them either wearing double belts or old-man pants.

lord_khaine

2010-09-30, 04:05 PM

To be fair, that's put them on a very prestigious list along with Space Marine Snipers, Eldar Snipers (!) and a dedicated Nurgle Army - almost none of which get used unless in ultra competitive Tournaments and at least one of which might get a forced rewrite under such circumstance. I don't think it's going to be an epidemic of dead Wraithlords outside of the initial Dark Eldar launch popularity, and even then they're only AP5....
If anything, Wraithlord need more foils like this - For their points cost they're very, very good and have been so uninterrupted for a very long time.

Having said that...

If disapproving people can go "Wraithlord are broken because of A, B and C" and we True Believers can counter right back with "Ah, but they're vulnerable to X, Y and Z", then that's 'balance', of a sort.
Both are shallow, childish arguments used in a vacuum and once they've canceled each other out we can go right on using our 100pt MVPs in triplicate, and blame our opponent for not preparing their army properly! Genius, right?

Oh yeah of course, thanks.

Now i just gotta go out and buy my 3rd wraithlord, to make my current list complete :smalltongue:

edit.

How is it now, its 1 wraithlord per 500 points thats considderet fair, right?

Closet_Skeleton

2010-09-30, 04:34 PM

How is it now, its 1 wraithlord per 500 points thats considderet fair, right?

More like 750 or 1000.

But I've only fought wraithlords with tyranid and ork armies that couldn't hurt T8 if they were allowed to bend the fabric of reality.

lord_khaine

2010-09-30, 05:48 PM

More like 750 or 1000.

But I've only fought wraithlords with tyranid and ork armies that couldn't hurt T8 if they were allowed to bend the fabric of reality.

Ahh, but you see, if you cant handle 3 wraithlords, then its your own fault for not bringing enough poisoned weapons and sniper rifles, Wraith taught me that:smalltongue:

On a side note, would people generaly considder Eldrath worth the points?

Shas aia Toriia

2010-09-30, 06:13 PM

On a side note, would people generaly considder Eldrath worth the points?

From what I understand, he's pretty good if you take advantage of his abilities.

Psychotic

2010-09-30, 06:38 PM

On a side note, would people generaly considder Eldrath worth the points?

In higher point games, Eldrad is well worth the points for the third psychic power he can bring to the table. I once drove a Space Wolf player crazy by using Eldrad and the Avatar of Khaine in a 2000 point game. Fortuned Wave Serpent that'll move flat-out (with Eldrad inside)? Check. Fortuned Avatar? Check. Doom'd Wolf Guard Terminator squad? Check. Lots of space marine gibblets? Check.

Wraith

2010-09-30, 06:52 PM

More like 750 or 1000.

But I've only fought wraithlords with tyranid and ork armies that couldn't hurt T8 if they were allowed to bend the fabric of reality.

1 per 750 is about right by my reckoning. Not only does this create a semblance of a 'fair' list, but quite importantly it stops the Eldar Player from over-spending on one big model when ideally the points could be going on another Troops choice. It's an easy mistake to make, let me tell you from experience..... :smallwink:

And even then taking two of them in 1500 points will have some people complaining about it, so it depends on your audience - if you care what they think, bump it up to 1 in 1000.

No matter what you do, though, Triple Wraithlord will cost you Comp. Score points in any points range (or whatever the equivalent currency is in "respect" from your opponents, or whatever you might call it). For some bizarre reason, people hate to see such wonderful, well crafted models on the table.... :smalltongue:

Ahh, but you see, if you cant handle 3 wraithlords, then its your own fault for not bringing enough poisoned weapons and sniper rifles, Wraith taught me that:smalltongue:

I'll try to find the link at some point, but Cheesegear once made a very good summary of 'How To Win At A Tournament' ultimately summarising with the wisdom: Expect absolutely anything, and have a plan to deal with it.
Triple Wraithlords were mentioned by name as one of the examples, if I recall correctly. You're aren't likely to meet such a thing at the GT, but the fact remains that it is possible to get drawn against such a list and if it happens, there's nothing you can do about it but play and hope for the best.

[EDIT: Clicketty-Click!] (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8301600&postcount=42):smallbiggrin:

With that in mind, you wouldn't believe some of the awful things that happened to my local metagame, thanks to the perceived indestructability of my Wraith-Eldar list.
It's amazing how quickly someone's "theme" army can become corrupted into a high-powered Nigh-Tournament list when they're scared enough.... :smalleek:

On a side note, would people generaly considder Eldrath worth the points?

I agree with Shas'aia Toriia, in that Eldrad is worth his points if you are able to take advantage of all of his abilities.

Given that he has varied abilities that are best employed across your entire army AND some of your opponent's, achieving this can be quite difficult and I personally prefer not to put myself through the hassle.
Eldar don't work so well when you try to have one unit do everything, so I much prefer the alternative; take two ordinary Farseers and stat them for particular roles rather than relying on one model to do both their workloads.

Klose_the_Sith

2010-09-30, 07:54 PM

[EDIT: Clicketty-Click!] (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8301600&postcount=42):smallbiggrin:

Great, now I'm going to spend all week having nightmares about trying to fight Monolith spam with my poor, poor Marines :smalleek:

It's okay boys, honest! We brought Str 10 Ordnance with our two Vindicators and a pair of Lascannons. We can maybe survive ... maybe :smallfrown:

Kzickas

2010-10-01, 02:51 AM

Best things about elrad are: being almost unkillable with T4 and a 3+ rerollable invoulnerable save, and divinations which make you totally immune to infiltrators

lord_khaine

2010-10-01, 02:53 AM

Given that he has varied abilities that are best employed across your entire army AND some of your opponent's, achieving this can be quite difficult and I personally prefer not to put myself through the hassle.
Eldar don't work so well when you try to have one unit do everything, so I much prefer the alternative; take two ordinary Farseers and stat them for particular roles rather than relying on one model to do both their workloads.

Ahh, but my Avatar is the second best paintet model in my entire army, i hate not bringing him along for the bigger battles :smallfrown:

Closet_Skeleton

2010-10-01, 06:21 AM

Ahh, but you see, if you cant handle 3 wraithlords, then its your own fault for not bringing enough poisoned weapons and sniper rifles, Wraith taught me that:smalltongue:

Yeah, loads of those in Ork armies.

1 per 750 is about right by my reckoning. Not only does this create a semblance of a 'fair' list, but quite importantly it stops the Eldar Player from over-spending on one big model when ideally the points could be going on another Troops choice. It's an easy mistake to make, let me tell you from experience..... :smallwink:

And even then taking two of them in 1500 points will have some people complaining about it, so it depends on your audience - if you care what they think, bump it up to 1 in 1000.

500 points on Wraithlords.
200 Points on HQ

That's still half your points you can spend on troops in a 1500 game and even more in a 2000 point game.

Cheesegear

2010-10-01, 06:54 AM

500 points on Wraithlords.

What Wraithlords have you been taking?

Wraithlord - 135 Points
Scatter Laser, Eldar Missile Launcher

Wraithlord - 135 Points
Scatter Laser, Eldar Missile Launcher

Wraithlord - 130 Points
Wraithsword, Starcannon

400 Points. To get to five hundred points for trip Wraithlords, they need to be 165 Points each, which can only be done with a Bright Lance-Starcannon combo, which is one of the worst you can give. Or twin Bright Lances, which is also one of the worst things you can be doing, if not the worst thing you can do on a Wraithlord.

Because trip-Wraithlords - with intelligent design - doesn't even break 400 points, it becomes fairly viable (read; nigh-unbeatable) in 1000 Points.

Kzickas

2010-10-01, 09:20 AM

Cheesegear

2010-10-01, 09:43 AM

Fun thing reading the thread about what the next eldar codex should be like on warseer. Right now they're discussing how wraithlords should be buffed. Currently I think the consensus there is that 1-3 extra wounds, an extra attack and an invoulnerable save would be what it takes to make them balanced. They also want the shuriken catapult to be a storm bolter that forces the opponent to reroll successful armor and cover saves

Yeah, with it being pretty much confirmed that Dark Eldar have poison on pretty much everything, and the new Tyranid Codex pretty much setting the standard for Monstrous Creatures everywhere, as well as Tyranids also having poison readily available, for cheap, in massive numbers...

The best thing about the Wraithlord is its Toughness 8. With the proliferation of poison (both in 40K and in Magic: the Gathering, lol) in the game now, and Rending becoming more common, Wraithlords are getting shafted compared to what they used to be.

It's biggest downfall, I agree, is no Invulnerable save.

Winterwind

2010-10-01, 09:52 AM

Fun thing reading the thread about what the next eldar codex should be like on warseer. Right now they're discussing how wraithlords should be buffed. Currently I think the consensus there is that 1-3 extra wounds, an extra attack and an invoulnerable save would be what it takes to make them balanced. They also want the shuriken catapult to be a storm bolter that forces the opponent to reroll successful armor and cover savesThat's the most ridiculous thing I've heard in... well, a long, long time. Why not just drop them to 65 points and make them Troops choices, while we're at it, too? :smallsigh:

These people should seriously try to play with a non-cheesy list and a moderately weak codex sometime, that might reset their expectations to slightly more sane levels.

Psychotic

2010-10-01, 10:15 AM

IMO, Wraithlords could do with an extra attack and another wound. Everything else is fine, even though I do wish having two bright lances (as opposed to a twin-linked one) was an option.

crazedloon

2010-10-01, 10:18 AM

That or they could bring back the old rule which made wraith constructs immune to poison :smallconfused:

MountainKing

2010-10-01, 11:44 AM

IMO, Wraithlords could do with an extra attack and another wound. Everything else is fine, even though I do wish having two bright lances (as opposed to a twin-linked one) was an option.

...Well, talk about truth in advertising. Wraithlords are ridiculously overpowered for their points; how on Terra do you get that they need an extra attack and an extra wound? :smallconfused::smalleek::smallconfused::smalleek:

DaedalusMkV

2010-10-01, 01:37 PM

Great, now I'm going to spend all week having nightmares about trying to fight Monolith spam with my poor, poor Marines :smalleek:

It's okay boys, honest! We brought Str 10 Ordnance with our two Vindicators and a pair of Lascannons. We can maybe survive ... maybe :smallfrown:

A tip on fighting Necrons:
If it looks huge, massive and scary and isn't a Destroyer or Wraith, don't shoot at it*. Don't assault it. Don't even look at it funny. It's not worth it. Instead, take the gun that you were going to shoot at his big scary thing and shoot it at his Destroyers and Wraiths, or if it's Ordnance at his Warriors. Kill the Destroyers and Wraiths first, then the Warriors. Chances are, unless your army has virtually no offensive output or you get very unlucky, you phase your enemy out long before they actually accomplish anything, because they were fools and spent over half of their points on the offensive equivalent of Leman Russes. Triple-Monolith is a joke; it's the guys who brought a single Monolith and three blocks of Warriors and then spammed Wraiths or Destroyers that you have to worry about...

*Tau can just straight-up ignore this rule and shoot their Railguns at the monoliths. Still ignore the C'tan, though. I love spammable S10 AP1... Probably the only reason my Tau see any play at all anymore.

Winterwind

2010-10-01, 01:49 PM

A tip on fighting Necrons:
If it looks huge, massive and scary and isn't a Destroyer or Wraith, don't shoot at it*. Don't assault it. Don't even look at it funny. It's not worth it. Instead, take the gun that you were going to shoot at his big scary thing and shoot it at his Destroyers and Wraiths, or if it's Ordnance at his Warriors. Kill the Destroyers and Wraiths first, then the Warriors. Chances are, unless your army has virtually no offensive output or you get very unlucky, you phase your enemy out long before they actually accomplish anything, because they were fools and spent over half of their points on the offensive equivalent of Leman Russes. Triple-Monolith is a joke; it's the guys who brought a single Monolith and three blocks of Warriors and then spammed Wraiths or Destroyers that you have to worry about...

*Tau can just straight-up ignore this rule and shoot their Railguns at the monoliths. Still ignore the C'tan, though. I love spammable S10 AP1... Probably the only reason my Tau see any play at all anymore.So what do you do with people who bring a C'Tan, triple-Monolith, and then keep all their Warriors in Reserve? (Asking because knowing the answer to this might very well become relevant to me quite soon, as a friend of mine plans to do just that)

SmartAlec

2010-10-01, 02:58 PM

I recommend feigning illness.

Wraith

2010-10-01, 03:03 PM

500 points on Wraithlords.
200 Points on HQ

That's still half your points you can spend on troops in a 1500 game and even more in a 2000 point game.

Just because you can do it, doesn't mean that you should do it. :smalltongue:

I blame myself for not putting enough emphasis on my personal limit being based mostly on a sense of honourable intentions and sportsmanship. I'm aware that it's perfectly possible to run 3 Wraithlord successfully in 300 points if necessary, but I just choose not to because I have precious few friends as it is without pulling such stunts on them! :smallsmile:

...Well, talk about truth in advertising. Wraithlords are ridiculously overpowered for their points; how on Terra do you get that they need an extra attack and an extra wound? :smallconfused::smalleek::smallconfused::smalleek:

I think the idea behind givin them another Attack and another Wound is that it would make them "perfect".

And I mean that in a bad way - they'd be THE single best unit for their points cost in the game, and it wouldn't even be mildly contentious like it could be right now. They'd be awesome in every way with negligible drawbacks.

Which, if we're going to be honest, is what everyone would like to see in their own army. Fortunately 40k isn't about perfect units rolling dice at each other until one arbitrarily 'loses', it's about finding and exploiting weaknesses.

With that in mind, Wraithlord are just about falling back into line with other similar units. They are still really good, but there's now nearly enough stuff around to 'beat them' that they're not automagic choices, and anything that injects a bit of novelty or variety into Army Lists can only be a good thing. They're just fine as they are, in my eyes - perhaps a little on the cheap side if anything :smallsmile:

So what do you do with people who bring a C'Tan, triple-Monolith, and then keep all their Warriors in Reserve? (Asking because knowing the answer to this might very well become relevant to me quite soon, as a friend of mine plans to do just that)

Please remind me again what army you use, Winterwind?

My own answer to this question is "Let them Deepstrike onto your doorstep, shrug off casualties with T6, shoot them with 30 Wraithcannon and then laugh manically", but I appreciate that such a thing would be tricky for a none-silly list like mine :smallbiggrin:

dsmiles

2010-10-01, 04:58 PM

I recommend feigning illness.

Well played.

One Step Two

2010-10-01, 04:59 PM

While I know that Forgeworld and Games Workshops Mainstream design teams aren't related the new Necron Tomb Stalker's and it's construct rules (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/News/Necron_Tomb_Stalker.html), might be setting an interesting precedent for things. A friend of mine believes such a rule might apply to more Necron units in the future, or perhaps be applied to other constructs, such as Eldar Wraith units.

Closet_Skeleton

2010-10-01, 05:39 PM

Wraith bone is a grown pseudo-biological structure. Poisoning it isn't illogical.

What Wraithlords have you been taking?

None, I was just over-estimating because I thought it would be less likely to get it wrong that way. I don't exactly have a legal eldar codex. Well, not a 4th ed one.

Wraithlords don't have enough attacks to be one man units, but dreadnoughts don't either, so eldar can't really complain.

Hive Tyrants and Carnifexes don't exactly have a lot of attacks either. Except for Old One Eye, but you can't have broods of him.

lord_khaine

2010-10-01, 05:49 PM

The problem is that wraithlords have even less attacks than normal dreadnoughts or Tyranid monstrours creatures, their 2 attacks means that all they can really do is pick off any non eternal warrior t5 or less IC who get into base contact with them, and then stand and poke at the rest of the squad until the battle ends.

Cheesegear

2010-10-01, 06:02 PM

...Well, talk about truth in advertising. Wraithlords are ridiculously overpowered for their points.

Well, that's exactly the opposite of what people are saying now. They used to be overpowered. However, now that every Codex coming has pretty cheap and numerous ways of killing Monstrous Creatures; Wraithlords are on the outs.

Wraithlords are not as powerful as they used to be. They're powerful in comparison to the rest of the Codex, sure, but, in regards to the larger game itself? Pretty tame.

People are now dealing with Swarmlord, Trygons, Mawlocs, triple trip-Carnifexes and Tervigons. The old favourite of Dual Lash-Princes (who have Eternal Warrior and an Invulnerable), and of course, Mephiston.

This is the new paradigm. Wraithlords aren't overpowered. They're...Okay. They're immune to Bolter fire. Aside from that, they don't do anything else except be a Fire Magnet.
...And that's not even including the fact that Wraithlords need to be babysat.

Psychotic

2010-10-01, 06:16 PM

...And that's not even including the fact that Wraithlords need to be babysat.

You either need to drop 80+ points on a Farseer or 105+ points on a Guardian Squad w/ Warlocks in order to make your lords work. I know it's an army built on synergy, but can't a guy just have a unit that doesn't need support to actually be useful in its role?

Trixie

2010-10-01, 07:15 PM

Trixie I don't think you ever answered my question about Chaos Marines and Deathwatch. :smallconfused:

So, someone actually noticed what I wrote back then? :smallbiggrin:

So, yes, let me repeat - guess who can serve in Deathwatch? :smallamused:

Ok, to give the long answer - you have to wiev this from three angles. First, corruption points. They mutate you, turn you into gibbering spawn or led to being posessed a daemon and that marine is removed from play. But!

First, Deathwatch marines are immune to all effects of corruption save for the final one. Yup, they're that awesome. No mutations for them.

Second, since many of the DW enemies use warp energies, Apothecaries of the DW carefully monitor the corruption and can ever tech-magick lessen it. Don't ask me how this works, but it works.

Third, the rules about your standing in the DW say that while you might be ostracized due to your corruption,especially from more elitist members, all of you are still in DW and you do your oaths. Period. If you're good/loyal enough, even some adorning of the armor with skulls might go unnoticed for a time.

Now, on to actual Chaos SM.

So, that part about DW being xeno hunters? A big lie. They fight everyone. Sure, their main mission is to kill xenos, but if they see CSM, they go make some holes in them. They're still Space Marines, after all. Well, unless their DW interests dictate they don't engage them, but that happens rarely. In fact, when DW is not actively thwarting newest Xeno schemes, they often go fight anyone who is offending the Emperor by being mutant, alien, or heretic, as long as they have some convenient excuse.

And now, on to real meat.

That is, the Blackshields. These are marines who have torn their shoulderpad bearing their marks of allegiance (note that it doesn't say to whom) and traveled to the nearest office of the Emperor's Foreign Legion... in Space! to join the DW.

Don't ask me how they know where it is and who transports them there, though.

The Blackshield isn't usually turned down, receives new pad, this one pure black, and joins the DW for life. Not convinced?

Ok, how about the mention that these marines are often last loyal marines of their chapters or other marine units that have fallen to Chaos... I wonder what these other units might be? :smalltongue:

Not enough?

Ok, then, the next paragraph mentions marines who turned their gaze back to the Emperor's light.

Of course, it mentions also chapters who have betrayed the Imperium due to xeno machinations (they don't mention if these chapters joined the xenos or just chaos, though).

And, for the coup de grace, the section telling players what the nine fallen legions are has an addition in handwriting "some secrets of the Deathwatch are far too great to ever be told outside of it" :smallamused:

So, anyway, the Deathwatch is awesome. These guys in grey suits attempting to copy their style? They're boyscouts in comparison. Deathwatch exists to protect the humanity from far greater threats than mere Chaos (in fact, one of those led to them being founded) and they have more power at their fingertips than almost all of the Imperium's factions, except maybe Mechanicus.

Though, it would be weird if the book about DW praised someone else.

And, let me make cynical observation, all these star-gnawers and world-kickers the DW is guarding have apparently one purpose - to be stolen by some nefarious xenos to give them enough power to be a threat, as their uber-weapons are mentioned only in that context.

No. A new player has no business making 3 units of Thunderwolves. Hell, even the competitive players are starting to stop doing that. Mainly because every time you play with 15+ Thunderwolves, you're pretty much playing Noob-Hammer, and that's lame.

Poland still ahead, I see! :smallbiggrin:

Anyway, yes, new player won't need Thunderwolves. He might, however, have a good need for MotF.

Less A. If you want equal A, you get to pay 21pts a model

19 to 21 actually.

with a 1/3 chance that you'll lose a crapload of models.

Read - 4 or 5? :smallconfused:

I hardly see how that's a crapload, you'd need some seriously unlucky rolls many times in a row to lose that big amount of points. In fact, rolling that badly should make all the guys who hate Mathhammer happy - after ally, you used up all the bad luck you had before combat! :smalltongue:

Biled Space Marines are not equal to Berzerkers.

Except they can do things berserkers cannot even dream about doing, and are way better if they're on receiving end of a charge. Their customization potential is far greater. Their every drawback, be it S, A, I, Inv, or T, can be covered with a bit of wargear.

Berserkers might be good, but they're much less versatile.

No True Grit or any of the other awesome Grey Knight rules.

Yeah, they only have Uber Grit :smallfrown:

Which is better than TG, they don't forget how to use it when they charge for one.

S5 on average, still WS4. Again, less A.

If you use the difference in points to buy more bodies, they hit more often, have more W, more staying power, and are much more expendable.

Feel No Pain is worthless on an HQ, since any allocated attacks will ignore saves anyway.

Well... actually, against 90% of the things in the game? FNP is way better than 5++, as it stacks with 3+. 5++ will mostly fail if the enemy dedicates one or more than one S8/ID attack, after all. Unless you're really lucky, Power Fist kills Bile as easily as any of these 5++ ICs. Anything less than AP2/S8? FNP laughs at it as it's not going to be very effective.

Sure, 5++ might come in handy, but more on whole units, than on ICs, stopping 1/3 of the wounds is pointless if threatening weapon makes more than one of them. Even one wound is fatal with weapons that ignore FNP, and 5++ is going to not save them more often than not. It is, after all, an equivalent of IG armor save, and those aren't exactly famous for rolling it often.

His attacks might inflict instant death, but they don't even ignore saves.

Which isn't that great of an issue, IMHO.

Or rather, it wouldn't be if 80% of the armies weren't Spees Mareens with goddamned EWs and 3+ saves. Sigh.

Closet_Skeleton

2010-10-01, 08:16 PM

People are now dealing with Swarmlord, Trygons, Mawlocs, triple trip-Carnifexes and Tervigons. The old favourite of Dual Lash-Princes (who have Eternal Warrior and an Invulnerable), and of course, Mephiston.

Tripple carnifexes are a lot more points than triple wraithlords and half the time they're not as good.

Lycan 01

2010-10-01, 08:29 PM

So that's all in the new Deathwatch game? Wait... can you be a Chaos Marine?! :smalleek:

At least tell me DW has enemy stats for CSMs. :smalltongue:

Cheesegear

2010-10-01, 08:35 PM

So, yes, let me repeat - guess who can serve in Deathwatch? :smallamused:

Not Chaos Marines.

First, Deathwatch marines are immune to all effects of corruption save for the final one. Yup, they're that awesome. No mutations for them.
[...]
Second, since many of the DW enemies use warp energies, Apothecaries of the DW carefully monitor the corruption and can ever tech-magick lessen it. Don't ask me how this works, but it works.
[...]
Third, the rules about your standing in the DW say that while you might be ostracized due to your corruption,especially from more elitist members, all of you are still in DW and you do your oaths. Period. If you're good/loyal enough, even some adorning of the armor with skulls might go unnoticed for a time.

None of that spells 'CHAOS!'
That just spells out that you've done questionable things. Same as in Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader. Nowhere, ever does Corruption = Chaos. Corruption means morally ambiguous decisions.

Dealing with Chaos just gives you way more Corruption points than normal. Hell, you can get Corruption just by being in the same room as something else. How is that being 'Chaos'?

That is, the Blackshields. These are marines who have torn their shoulderpad bearing their marks of allegiance (note that it doesn't say to whom) and traveled to the nearest office of the Emperor's Foreign Legion... in Space! to join the DW.

So, they remove their Shoulder Pads that bear their Chapter's symbol. They can do this for all kinds of reasons. I've never heard of it being done before. But, now that's its been brought up, I see no reason why it couldn't happen.

You're not turning to Chaos, or turning Traitor. You're just sick of your Chapter's bulls* and want to quit early, rather than waiting for a Founding to put your hand up that you can start.
(And if you want to be one of the founding members of a successor Chapter, you also need to be Veteran).

But, I see how you could be a Chaos Marine and join the Deathwatch. But, Chaos Marines don't exactly let you quit. And neither would the Chaos Gods. It also requires that nobody knows who you are. It's all straw-grasping.

Not convinced?

No.

Ok, how about the mention that these marines are often last loyal marines of their chapters or other marine units that have fallen to Chaos... I wonder what these other units might be? :smalltongue:

So, their unit falls to Chaos, but they don't. Wow. That's definitely not being a Chaos Marine. That's staying loyal to the Emperor when no-one else does.

See; Nathaniel Garro. The the greatest Space Marine ever.

Ok, then, the next paragraph mentions marines who turned their gaze back to the Emperor's light.

Doesn't exactly mean Chaos either. Soul Drinkers are a perfect example. You can hate the Imperium, and hate Chaos at the same time.
Alpharius (as in, the Primarch) did.

Of course, it mentions also chapters who have betrayed the Imperium due to xeno machinations (they don't mention if these chapters joined the xenos or just chaos, though).

So, not Chaos Marines.

"some secrets of the Deathwatch are far too great to ever be told outside of it"

Tenuous. It's like saying Grey Knights are Thousand Sons. You can see a few links, but it's a lot of straw-grasping.

So, anyway, the Deathwatch are awesome.

Didn't we already know that?

Arcanoi

2010-10-01, 09:13 PM

"some secrets of the Deathwatch are far too great to ever be told outside of it"

It's common unconfirmed knowledge that Nathaniel Garro, a Captain in the Death Guard Legion, was the first member of the Deathwatch after he fled from the massacre at Istvaan.

19 to 21 actually.

Huh? You need to buy a Mark of Khorne to get equal attacks. It's 30pts, which equates to 3pts a model in a 10 model squad.

Read - 4 or 5? :smallconfused:

I hardly see how that's a crapload, you'd need some seriously unlucky rolls many times in a row to lose that big amount of points. In fact, rolling that badly should make all the guys who hate Mathhammer happy - after ally, you used up all the bad luck you had before combat! :smalltongue:

If you roll a one, you'll lose approximately a third of your models, which means you're effectively paying 50% more per model. If you roll a 6, you lose a model a turn, which -will- come back to bite you, guaranteed, even if you are S6. Both of these are a large portion of the unit.

Except they can do things berserkers cannot even dream about doing
Like what? :smallconfused:

and are way better if they're on receiving end of a charge.

Except they're not. They still have less A unless you pay 21pts a model, and are WS4 instead of 5, which will often mean being hit on 3s instead of 4s or 4s instead of 5s. And if the Berzerkers do get the Assault, they're far and away better.

Their customization potential is far greater. Their every drawback, be it S, A, I, Inv, or T, can be covered with a bit of wargear.

Berserkers might be good, but they're much less versatile.

If you're Biling them, you're building them to be an assault squad, or wasting points. Berzerkers are better at assaulting things, and about equal at being assaulted. This isn't an argument against CSM squads in general, just against Biling them.

Yeah, they only have Uber Grit :smallfrown:

Which is better than TG, they don't forget how to use it when they charge for one.

Wait, CSM are Relentless and have Noise Blasters? Where does it say that? Otherwise, I'm legitimately confused as to what you're talking about here.

If you use the difference in points to buy more bodies, they hit more often, have more W, more staying power, and are much more expendable.

You'll have 6 Biled Space Marines for every 5 Grey Knights. You will wish every second of your interaction with Biled Space Marines that they were Grey Knights. Grey Knights are awesome, Biled Space Marines are not.

Well... actually, against 90% of the things in the game? FNP is way better than 5++, as it stacks with 3+. 5++ will mostly fail if the enemy dedicates one or more than one S8/ID attack, after all. Unless you're really lucky, Power Fist kills Bile as easily as any of these 5++ ICs. Anything less than AP2/S8? FNP laughs at it as it's not going to be very effective.

90% of the things in the game won't be directed against your IC. The Relic Blade (and every other variety of Power Weapon) attacks that ignore your armor save, and thus your FNP, will be. And they will kill Bile about twice as easily as any other Chaos IC, since he is WS5 and has no Invul Save.

Sure, 5++ might come in handy, but more on whole units, than on ICs, stopping 1/3 of the wounds is pointless if threatening weapon makes more than one of them. Even one wound is fatal with weapons that ignore FNP, and 5++ is going to not save them more often than not. It is, after all, an equivalent of IG armor save, and those aren't exactly famous for rolling it often.

Power Weapons also ignore FNP, and when your Bile goes down over and over and over again because you don't even get the chance of a save, you will wish he had one.

And IG aren't known for making their saves because so very few weapons actually let them take them. But when they get to take them, they're actually rather renowned for making about a third of their saves.

Which isn't that great of an issue, IMHO.

Or rather, it wouldn't be if 80% of the armies weren't Spees Mareens with goddamned EWs and 3+ saves. Sigh.
The number of Multiwound models with a save worse than 4+ can probably be counted with one hand. The only one that immediately comes to mind is Tyranid Shrikes.

Cheesegear

2010-10-01, 09:23 PM

It's common unconfirmed knowledge that Nathaniel Garro, a Captain in the Death Guard Legion, was the first member of the Deathwatch after he fled from the massacre at Istvaan.

I thought he was the first Inquisitor? Or maybe he was the Inqusitor that founded the Deathwatch? Or something...We'll see when Garro comes out.

Arcanoi

2010-10-01, 09:25 PM

I thought he was the first Inquisitor? Or maybe he was the Inqusitor that founded the Deathwatch? Or something...We'll see when Garro comes out.

Well, that's what I'd heard. My guess was that Qruze(or however you spell that name) would be the first Inquisitor.

Cheesegear

2010-10-01, 09:29 PM

Well, that's what I'd heard. My guess was that Qruze(or however you spell that name) would be the first Inquisitor.

Probably. Like I said; Garro comes out soon. We'll find out what he does after Flight of the Eisenstein.

I'm still waiting on the creation of the Grey Knights. However, they were a second (or third?) founding Chapter made after the Heresy. So, probably wont see them for a while.

I do like the Custodians and the Sisters of Silence though.

Closet_Skeleton

2010-10-02, 04:39 AM

Tenuous. It's like saying Grey Knights are Thousand Sons. You can see a few links, but it's a lot of straw-grasping.

More likely that the Grey Knights are one of the two missing legions. They are supposed to be a secret after all and their founding is unknown but happened around the time of the second founding and possibly before, so they could be first founding easily.

I was reading an old book that definately stated the possibility that they could have been created before the second founding, which implies during the heresy or even the great crusade.

They're secret after all. They could have been fighting daemons while the other primarchs were conquoring stuff.

Cheesegear

2010-10-02, 05:00 AM

Unrelated, but I'd also like to point out that Malcador is awesome.

SmartAlec

2010-10-02, 05:19 AM

More likely that the Grey Knights are one of the two missing legions. They are supposed to be a secret after all and their founding is unknown but happened around the time of the second founding and possibly before, so they could be first founding easily.

I was reading an old book that definately stated the possibility that they could have been created before the second founding, which implies during the heresy or even the great crusade.

They're secret after all. They could have been fighting daemons while the other primarchs were conquoring stuff.

There's a brief mention of the two missing chapters from Loken in the early books of the Horus Heresy series, which means those chapters definitely predate the Heresy; and from Loken's thoughts, it seems the two missing Chapters are considered traitorous somehow and that's why their details were expunged.

The Grey Knights were supposedly created after the Heresy, from scratch, using the Emperor's own genetic material.

Cheesegear

2010-10-02, 07:32 AM

There's a brief mention of the two missing chapters from Loken in the early books of the Horus Heresy series, which means those chapters definitely predate the Heresy

Yes. It is fact that the Emperor created 20 Legions, and found 20 (21, including Omegon) Primarchs. However, Big Daddy E disowned two of them. The 2 Legions were also destroyed, their gene-seeds purged and all records of them deleted.

Common theory is that they're actually worse than traitors. Because there are a whole nine Legions who were traitors, but the Imperium still acknowledges their existence.

lord_khaine

2010-10-02, 07:34 AM

Who is Omegon?

Cheesegear

2010-10-02, 07:45 AM

Who is Omegon?

A massive spoiler. Read Legion by Dan Abnett.

lord_khaine

2010-10-02, 08:46 AM

Hmm, ok if its Dan that has written it, then it might very well be worth reading.

hamishspence

2010-10-02, 11:28 AM

On Deathwatch- Chaos Marine is unlikely- but renegade might be less unlikely. If a chapter were to go renegade, without actually falling to Chaos, and one of those guys decides his comrades have "crossed the line" and flees, he might in theory end up returning to the Imperium, and becoming a Blackshield.

From Deathwatch:

Who are these mysterious warriors, who shroud their Chapter symbols and often hide their faces beneath dark hoods? Some say they are the last of their Chapters, their Battle-Brothers having been lost to war, disaster or the irreversible destabilization of their gene-seed. Others whisper that these lone strangers might have remained true to their oaths while all of their fellows turned against them. Some may even be traitors turned back to the light, but haunted by a life of sin and blasphemy they can never confess.

So- former Renegades does not seem impossible.

Closet_Skeleton

2010-10-02, 11:43 AM

There's a brief mention of the two missing chapters from Loken in the early books of the Horus Heresy series, which means those chapters definitely predate the Heresy; and from Loken's thoughts, it seems the two missing Chapters are considered traitorous somehow and that's why their details were expunged.

Anything the primarchs were told could have been a lie. The Emperor supposedly lied to the majority of the populous about the existance of chaos. I haven't read the Horus Heresy books, so I don't know how much he told the Primarchs about it.

The Grey Knights were supposedly created after the Heresy, from scratch, using the Emperor's own genetic material.

Which is a blatant Red Herring, since the primarchs were supposedly "the Emperor's sons", eg contained his genetic material, and the Emperor was not a space marine, so the Grey Knights can't have him as their primarch.

Yes. It is fact that the Emperor created 20 Legions, and found 20 (21, including Omegon) Primarchs. However, Big Daddy E disowned two of them. The 2 Legions were also destroyed, their gene-seeds purged and all records of them deleted.

Not actually stated in any fluff I read. The missing legions are mentioned as removed from records, but that also means there's no clarification that they were destroyed, only that their fate became a secret.

Common theory is that they're actually worse than traitors. Because there are a whole nine Legions who were traitors, but the Imperium still acknowledges their existence.

Any theory is as good as any other once you exclude the deliberately stupid ones.

From the Ultramarines Codex (aka the 2nd ed space marine codex):

The Grey Knights were the first of the new chapters to be created during the second founding. They are an exception among the second founding chapters in that they have no antecedants, their gene-seed was engineered from sources unknown. The history of their creation is not a matter of record and even its inclusion in the Second Founding is debatable. There are hints in the Adeptus Record that the chapter was created by the Emperor during the Great Crusade.

So:
Created during the great crusade +
Not derived from the geneseed of a pre-existing chapter
=First Founding.

No records of their creation + first founding = Missing legion.

So the Emperor finds one of the unknown primarchs and tells him to make his legion into secret daemonslayers, deletes their existance from the records of all but the proto-inquisition and tells the other primarchs that one of their brothers had a regretable accident.

The Grey Knights are chapter 666, but that's doesn't mean they were the 666th chapter to be created since that would conflict with them being believed to be "the first second founding chapter". They could easily have been assigned a new number after the record of them being a <20 numbered chapter was deleted.

Rogue Trader era fluff makes it clear that the Inquisition was set up by the Emperor pre-heresy, but that's been explicitely retconned for years now. While the Grey Knights may have been intended as a missing legion by the writer of the Ultramarines codex, that's also easily retconable.

Its all presented as "hints and rumours" in the fluff, so you can decide what you want.

hamishspence

2010-10-02, 12:05 PM

Closet_Skeleton

2010-10-02, 12:25 PM

In Mechanicum, Rogal Dorn and Malcador are talking about the 13 legions they can muster to face Horus (there are unaware that some have already gone over. Dorn muses "Would that it were fifteen" and Malcador responds "Do not even think of it. They are lost forever"- this is usually taken as referring to the 2 deleted legions.

It clearly does, but it doesn't contradict the possibility that the primarchs were lied to. Maybe Dorn knows that the Grey Knights are in theory contactable and would fight against Horus and Malcador is just reminding him that he isn't supposed to talk about them.

hamishspence

2010-10-02, 12:37 PM

On Grey Knights- just because it's hinted that they were created in the Great Crusade, in one book, doesn't mean that's true. But then again, just because their geneseed was "said by some" to have come from the Emperor's flesh, doesn't guarantee that's true either.

Codex Imperialis (the generic 2nd ed fluff book for all the armies) has this to say:

The Chapter was the sole creation of the mysterious Second Founding at the beginning of the 31st Millennium. It was designed to fulfil a specific function, to fight daemonic forces in close combat either in space or on the ground. Its original Space Marine brothers were genetically engineered and surgically adapted along the same lines as the original founding but also received additional bio-engineering in keeping with their specialist role. As a result they are mentally tougher than most Space Marines and many of them are psychic. Space Marine psykers of the Grey Knights undergo their own rigorous program of training and screening, so that they are amongst the strongers psykers of the entire race.

Compare with the 3rd ed Codex Daemonhunters:

Legend tells that it was around the time of the Second Founding that the Emperor ordered the creation of this secret chapter of Space Marines. The fragile Imperium had only just survived the galactic civil war of the Horus Heresy, and was still very much at the mercy of the powers of Chaos. The Emperor understood that it would require a dedicated band of incorruptible warriors to protect it from the dread creatures of Chaos in the days to come, and so the creation of the Grey Knights was undertaken in great secrecy. Where other Space Marine chapters were created from the gene-seed of existing Chapters, the Grey Knights were unique in that their gene-seed was said by some to have come from the Emperor's own flesh. The Ordo Malleus was in its infancy at this time, the corruption of Horus lending new impetus to the creation of an order tasked wih the hunting and elimination of the daemonic.

Maybe the Grey Knights are a hybrid of Space Marine design, and Adeptus Custodes design? Both are engineered superhumans- but the Custodes didn't require a primarch.

the "Additional bio-engineering" in the 2nd ed version- can apply to "adding some of the Emperor's own genetic material into the process".

Winterwind

2010-10-02, 01:22 PM

Anything the primarchs were told could have been a lie. The Emperor supposedly lied to the majority of the populous about the existance of chaos. I haven't read the Horus Heresy books, so I don't know how much he told the Primarchs about it.Nothing whatsoever. Upon every encounter with daemons or any other Chaos-related thing, the primarchs were completely ignorant and utterly shocked. Magnus was probably the only one who knew about what lurked in the Warp.

And, yeah, no matter what the primarchs or anyone else states about the two lost legions, that still doesn't preclude the possibility that these are just lies they were told as part of a giant mystification in order to hide the existence and/or origin of the Grey Knights.

What I'm wondering more about is, why? What purpose does surrounding the Grey Knights in so much secrecy serve? One would think having the Grey Knights stand there as shining paragons of virtue against the darkness of Chaos could only be a morale-boost for everyone in the Imperium.

...I think we really should revive the fluff thread, or (if it's too long gone) start a new one.

hamishspence

2010-10-02, 01:28 PM

And, yeah, no matter what the primarchs or anyone else states about the two lost legions, that still doesn't preclude the possibility that these are just lies they were told as part of a giant mystification in order to hide the existence and/or origin of the Grey Knights.

...I think we really should revive the fluff thread, or (if it's too long gone) start a new one.

It's too long gone: 8/7/2010- nearly two months.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140569&page=36&highlight=Warhammer+Fluff

In 2nd ed, the existence of the Grey Knights is pretty well known- it's their role that's hidden.

(But then, in 2nd ed, even the Ordo Malleus was far more secret than the rest of the Inquisition).

Closet_Skeleton

2010-10-02, 02:12 PM

First edition has the whole "every soldier who fights alongside the Grey Knights are killed afterwards, except for space marines who are mind wiped" thing.

But first edition Grey Knights fought in tactical squads with a single missile launcher and flamer, had captains, chaplains and apothecaries. Their halberd wielding psychic hood wearing* terminators were added later in white dwarf.

The Emperor wanted to hide chaos from the populous, since apparently not believing in daemons weakens them. First edition states that the Emperor's role is to protect humanity until it can evolve into a fully psychic race capable of withstanding daemons. Until then he soulbinds and eats psykers to keep the universe safe from daemons.

I have no idea if the standard member of the Imperium is supposed to know about the existance of chaos or not. Telling space marines that daemons aren't real seems kind of pointless when they have rivalries with chaos legions that they know to exist.

*psychic hoods and aegis suits were the same thing, with standard librarians wearing aegis suits

Cheesegear

2010-10-02, 05:04 PM

I have no idea if the standard member of the Imperium is supposed to know about the existance of chaos or not.

No. No they're not. Because if you know about Chaos, you can think about Chaos. And Chaos can find you if you do that. Ignorance is Bliss.

SmartAlec

2010-10-02, 06:33 PM

Mentioned it a couple of times, but it's pertinent here.

The explanation I recieved of the missing chapters was that when Rogue Trader was being written, 20 of the folks working in the Studio at the time were asked to come up with ideas for Space Marine chapters. This is why they're quite wildly different. Two guys left the company before RT was published, though, under bad circumstances -and their Chapters were 'expunged from the records' as a sort of meta-referential slap in the face.

Thus, it's very unlikely that the missing chapters would be the origin of anything as illustrious as the Grey Knights, as they're considered 'worse than traitors' as a GW company joke aimed at the two guys who left.

Feel free to take this story with a pinch of salt, mind. It's anecdotal, from Adrian Wood.

No. No they're not. Because if you know about Chaos, you can think about Chaos. And Chaos can find you if you do that. Ignorance is Bliss.

I think they know that there's something bad out there; just none of the details. The term 'Ruinous Powers' is often used, I think. It's a term that gives the impression that the Chaos Gods are bad without referring to them as Gods or as Chaos.

Issabella

2010-10-02, 10:32 PM

Arcanoi

2010-10-02, 10:54 PM

Around here you'd probably see a few more IG, but yes, that's a pretty standard spread.

Trond Forgelighter

2010-10-02, 11:39 PM

Speaking of Tournaments and results, the North American results where up, I was wondering if this spread of armies is considered typical? I wish they would break up the SM armies by book instead of lumping them together.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?aId=13200005a

Rough count: (Of store winners, over all top three was IG, SM, Tyranids)

Space Maries: 23
Orc: 6
Tyranids: 6
Chaos Marines: 5
Eldar:5
Tau: 3
Daemons: 3
Necrons: 3
Imperial Guard: 2
Dark Eldar: 2
Sisters: 1

(no Grey knights it seems)

Yeah I guess this looks pretty normal, though I think this speaks more about what armies are used the most then actual power. Space marines get the most wins just cause they get played so much. don't get me wrong they all of the marine codecies (excepting DA) can make very good armies. I would have expected IG to be much higher on the list and chaos quite a bit lower. Chaos is suffering from a very old codex and they can't put out the mech to withstand truly optimized IG/SW/BA/Tau/Tyrandis/Sisters/some dark eldar lists. That said their capable against average army lists so if these events were using comp then it makes sense.

Cheesegear

2010-10-02, 11:40 PM

Rough count: (Of store winners, over all top three was IG, SM, Tyranids)

That's a bit weird. Should've been Space Wolves, Space Wolves and Blood Angels.

Space Maries: 23

'Space Marines' is fairly generic. Any idea of how many were running Space Wolves or Blood Angels, or - depending on points - anyone brave enough to run Dark Angels?

Daemons: 3

That's actually about three too many.

Otherwise, looks like a fairly standard spread.

Issabella

2010-10-03, 12:02 AM

Unfortunatly the Games workshop site only lists them as "space marine" so no idea what was actually played.

Lycan 01

2010-10-03, 12:24 AM

I always thought the reasoning for the 2 Expunged Legions is so players could make up their own chapters and have fun with the game without fluff-fanatics spazzing out and biting their faces off. Also, I heard that the 2 missing Patriarchs are rumored to have died or dissappeared before the Emperor could find them and start their chapters, or however the Primarch stories went. :smallconfused:

I do like the idea of the Grey Knights being one of the mysterious forgotten chapters, though. Its a nifty idea to toy with, as possible or far-fetched it may be.

Cheesegear

2010-10-03, 12:45 AM

I always thought the reasoning for the 2 Expunged Legions is so players could make up their own chapters and have fun with the game without fluff-fanatics spazzing out and biting their faces off.

/sigh.

It hurts my brain when people mention this. Yes. That might have been how it was. About 15 years ago. However, that was back when the fluff was nowhere near as solidified as it is now. Now, saying that your Chapter is one of the two 'missing' Legions (not Chapters), is likely to get your head punched in.

Because now it's massively unoriginal, and clearly shows that you didn't try very hard. Claiming that your Chapter is First Founding, when there is literally 982 other Chapters to choose from. There are currently 756 un-named Chapters with which you can do whatever you want without limiting yourself to the First Founding.

Hell, of the 266 non-First Founding existing Chapters, about half of them have no existing Fluff beyond a name and a colour scheme. And about a third of them don't even have colour schemes.

There is no reason that you should claim that your Chapter is one of the two Missing Legions.

Also, I heard that the 2 missing Patriarchs are rumored to have died or dissappeared before the Emperor could find them and start their chapters, or however the Primarch stories went. :smallconfused:

The Emperor definitely found all 20 Primarchs. During the Horus Heresy books there's more than a few nods towards the two missing ones. And it's definitely implied and pretty much outright stated that the other Primarchs miss them.

Unrelated, but, aside from Rogal Dorn, all of the other Primarchs come off as massive jerks in the Heresy books.

I do like the idea of the Grey Knights being one of the mysterious forgotten chapters, though. Its a nifty idea to toy with, as possible or far-fetched it may be.

Except that the Grey Knights and Inquisition were created after the Heresy to combat Chaos after half the Legions fell. Grey Knights are not First Founding.

Grey Knights are Second Founding. Perhaps third.

Lycan 01

2010-10-03, 01:09 AM

Okay, okay, sorry. I'm not the best and most well informed when it comes to the history of 40K fluff, especially with the bazillion space marine chapters and such. Cut me a bit of slack, would you kindly? :smalltongue:

Ninja Chocobo

2010-10-03, 01:25 AM

Cheesegear

2010-10-03, 01:46 AM

Here 's probably more like Orks 3, Eldar 7, Daemons/Necrons 0, IG 9.

Here's my area, in order of appearance (I don't know exactly what numbers, this is based on what I play against most often and what I see being played);

Space Marines
Space Wolves
Blood Angels
Orks
Tyranids
Chaos Space Marines
Imperial Guard
Eldar
Necrons
Tau (Yeah, Necrons get played more than Tau)
Dark Eldar
Witch Hunters
-
-
Daemons. Zero.

Nobody plays with pure Daemonhunters, but, the Imperial Guard players tend to use them, as do Witch Hunter players as Allies.

lord_khaine

2010-10-03, 03:37 AM

There is no reason that you should claim that your Chapter is one of the two Missing Legions.

At the same time, there is absolutely no reason not to claim you are a lost chapter, if you think its fun.

Cyborg Mage

2010-10-03, 04:33 AM

According to The Chaos Gods Games Workshop, that's actually what the Lost Chapters are for. For people to make up their own paintsets and say that they have some importance in the galactic scheme of things. Though honestly, i'm more of an Eldar person. First off, psykers are awesome. (When they aren't suffering mental breakdowns or being possessed anyway) Second, appropriate to this topic, there are all the minor craftworlds floating about that haven't been written into canon- or at all for that matter- giving some degree of freedom. As for models, I got a bunch of old Eldar (And I mean old, about 2nd edition I think) off my cousin, but i'm still trying to get an army together. He gave me an Avatar, but i'm really leaning more to the Autarch/Farseer side of the spectrum, I don't know. I actually have an Autarch on Jetbike- still unassembeled.

lord_khaine

2010-10-03, 05:04 AM

I have been testing my Avatar a bit myself, and at least in the last battle he did great, cutting down a group of terminators (with help from a wraithlord), and cutting open a landraider.

Its especaly his WS 10 that i like, it means just about all melee troops and even a lot of elites only hit him on 5+ in close combat.

Closet_Skeleton

2010-10-03, 06:09 AM

Except that the Grey Knights and Inquisition were created after the Heresy to combat Chaos after half the Legions fell. Grey Knights are not First Founding.

Grey Knights are Second Founding. Perhaps third.

Every source says second founding, except for one out of date one which says probably second founding but possibly before.

So they could be first founding, or have been intended to be first founding during 2nd edition.

Since every source about the Grey Knights says "according to legend" or "there are hints", you can't pin down anything about them for certain.

Even your beloved Index Astartes says:

Founded in great secrecy around the time of the Second Founding (although this is uncertain)

There's no evidence that the Grey Knights are first founding, but the fluff definately hints that they might be earlier than Second Founding. Sure they might be hinting that they're later, but that kind of goes against the whole idea. Its pretty clear that the Grey Knights are one of the oldest chapters.

Cheesegear

2010-10-03, 06:39 AM

He gave me an Avatar, but i'm really leaning more to the Autarch/Farseer side of the spectrum, I don't know. I actually have an Autarch on Jetbike- still unassembeled.

Eldar HQs, eh?
The Avatar tends to be a walking target. What you really need to use him for is his Fearless generation. He is, in fact, Eldar Synapse, and is, in fact, just as good as most Tyranid Monstrous Creatures.

However, the problem lies in the fact that, unlike Tyranid Monstrous Creatures, the Avatar is only one model, and doesn't have access to bodyguard units. Meaning that you really, really need other targets that aren't the Avatar. Which tends to get people to field the Avatar, and three Wraithlords. Or two Wraithlords and a trio of War Walkers.

In any case, the Avatar is a fire magnet. Plan for such. Use him for killing tanks and other Monstrous Creatures. He's wasted on Infantry. And, personal experience says that he doesn't really hold water against a fair few ICs either.

Autarchs - like the Avatar - really need to be built around. They give +1 to Reserve rolls. Or +2 if you've got two. Use this. Don't waste it. An Autarch also has an amazing Ballistic Skill. Being on a Jetbike (Relentless) with a Reaper Launcher yields pretty amazing results. An Autarch also benefits from Exarch Powers (not Striking Scorpions though), as such, he works best in a unit of Warp Spiders, Swooping Hawks or Shining Spears.
My pick is Shining Spears. That being said, he works well in lower-point games in units of Dire Avengers.

Farseers; You can't go wrong. Well, you can. But it's pretty difficult. All the powers are good in their own way, just don't take more than two. Because you'll be wasting points.

TL;DR:
The Avatar is a Fire Magnet
Autarch requires Finesse (as he should)
Farseer generally Force Multiplies the rest of your army, or more likely just one or two units.

Cyborg Mage

2010-10-03, 07:37 AM

I actually bought a squad of Shining Spears to go with him, and my cousin had a fair few warp spiders so...

lord_khaine

2010-10-03, 08:04 AM

The Avatar tends to be a walking target. What you really need to use him for is his Fearless generation. He is, in fact, Eldar Synapse, and is, in fact, just as good as most Tyranid Monstrous Creatures.

And he got an advantage there, in that unlike most other MC he got a 4++ save, thats really nice when the lascannon beams are flying.

However, the problem lies in the fact that, unlike Tyranid Monstrous Creatures, the Avatar is only one model, and doesn't have access to bodyguard units. Meaning that you really, really need other targets that aren't the Avatar. Which tends to get people to field the Avatar, and three Wraithlords. Or two Wraithlords and a trio of War Walkers.

Well, between Wave serpents & Wraithlords there really should be enough targets for the opponents heavy weapons, so 1-2 Wraithlords should be enough, and there really isnt any reason to not bring those anyway.

hamishspence

2010-10-03, 04:23 PM

Grey Knights are Second Founding. Perhaps third.

I'd have probably gone with "1.5 Founding"- before the "official" Second founding- after the Heresy proper ended- founded during the very short time when the Emperor could still communicate.

The "official" second founding came quite a bit later- after Dorn and Guilliman had argued for a while, and some of their forces had started shooting at each other, Dorn caved- and the Second Founding began.

Winterwind

2010-10-03, 06:50 PM

So what do you do with people who bring a C'Tan, triple-Monolith, and then keep all their Warriors in Reserve? (Asking because knowing the answer to this might very well become relevant to me quite soon, as a friend of mine plans to do just that)Please remind me again what army you use, Winterwind?

My own answer to this question is "Let them Deepstrike onto your doorstep, shrug off casualties with T6, shoot them with 30 Wraithcannon and then laugh manically", but I appreciate that such a thing would be tricky for a none-silly list like mine :smallbiggrin:Sorry, I realized only now that I completely forgot to reply to this. Well, my own loss, because it prevented me from getting an without any doubt insightful answer. :smallredface:

I play Chaos Space Marines, with in 2000 points (or, intend to - it's not completely finished yet) this list:
HQ
Chaos Lord - 140 Points
- Daemon Weapon, combi-melter

TROOPS
Chaos Space Marines (x10) - 180+35 Points
- meltaguns (x2), Icon of Chaos Glory
- Rhino

Khornate Berzerkers (x8) - 208+50 Points
- Champion: Power Fist
- Rhino, Extra Armour

Noise Marines (x6) - 230 Points
- Blastmaster, Sonic Blasters (x4)
- Champion: Power Weapon, Doomsiren, Sonic Blaster

Plague Marines (x7) - 211+50 Points
- Flamers (x2)
- Champion: Power Fist
- Rhino, Extra Armour

Plague Marines (x7) - 221 Points
- Plasmaguns (x2)
- Champion: Power Weapon

FAST ATTACK
Raptors (x9) - 280 Points
- Meltaguns (x2), Icon of Tzeentch
- Champion: Dual Lightning Claws

HEAVY SUPPORT
Havocs (x5) - 170 Points
- Missile Launchers (x3), Laser Cannon

Obliterators (x2) - 150 Points

Obliterator - 75 Points

Total: 2000The basic idea is for a Chaos Lord who is truly devoted to all four of the Ruinous Powers, leading a group of Black Legionnaires, but believing he would make a much better Warlord of Chaos than Abaddon, and that mankind must be ushered into a new glorious age of devotion to the Chaos Gods, of which his legion in general and he personally in particular are to be the harbingers.

Hence, an Undivided Lord, with some units actively dedicated to Chaos Undivided (hence the icon of Chaos Glory and the Havocs), and then at least one unit belonging to each one of the Gods. I've strictly adhered to the holy numbers - in smaller games, I don't do so as strictly ("...they've taken casualties." :smalltongue:), but at so many points, I'd rather keep it fluffy. The Chaos Lord would probably travel with the flamer-Plague Marines (right now, in my smaller lists, he travels with the Berzerkers, but I'm finding that all this results in is utter overkill - they don't need him to slaughter everything in their path).