Warhammer 40k

[Nocharim]

Sorry to spoil your fun. Daemon Princes are immune to Instant Death in the new codex.
Most likely the Dominatrix Princess (Mentioned by me in the last page) is the one played in the tournament armies with its totally broken Lash of Submission.

Yes, Plaguemarines get FNP.

Thousands Sons with their AP3 Bolters and 4+ Invunerable are nifty aswell.

Oh and the codex is out already. It just comes as a sidealong in this. (http://uk.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.uk?do=Individual&code=60120102023&orignav=10)

[Krytha]

I didn't even notice that Chaos was getting an overhaul, but it's a good thing they are. It's definitely about time.

[crazedloon]

I didn't even notice that Chaos was getting an overhaul, but it's a good thing they are. It's definitely about time.

:smallconfused: umm now that is the sillest thing I have ever heard chaos has been reprinted 3 times in the last (ok I dont know how long as I am not good with dates but since 3rd came out for the first time) and yet us poor DE guys have no update and we still can kick your butt :smallwink:

[Destro_Yersul]

DE are likely to go the way of the Squats at this rate. Next to no-one plays them, most of the models are mail order only, and they're all crammed into one tiny little corner between the codexes (Shiny) and the Eldar models (Very Shiny).

[Krytha]

:smallconfused: umm now that is the sillest thing I have ever heard chaos has been reprinted 3 times in the last (ok I dont know how long as I am not good with dates but since 3rd came out for the first time) and yet us poor DE guys have no update and we still can kick your butt :smallwink:

Chaos models are stale as all get out. Besides, its the DE's fault for having crappy hover barge models which don't appeal to the masses.

[Destro_Yersul]

Chaos models are stale as all get out. Besides, its the DE's fault for having crappy hover barge models which don't appeal to the masses.

In that vein: Plastic possessed are awesome
Plastic Spawn are awesome
Plastic lord is doubly awesome

I want some plastic Thousand Sons

[Bryn]

Oh and the codex is out already. It just comes as a sidealong in this. (http://uk.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.uk?do=Individual&code=60120102023&orignav=10)

... but that's 'Advance Order', so presumably it won't be sent until the new codex is released :smallamused:

[evisiron]

I still can't wait to play a Tau friend of mine with my Witch Hunters. Turn-1 assualt, anyone?:smallbiggrin:

I am intrigued...

I know how to get a first turn charge with a chaos lord (D Speed, Infiltrate - Though I only us it against those pesky crisis suits) but how do manage it with Witch Hunters?

[TheOtherMC]

I am intrigued...

I know how to get a first turn charge with a chaos lord (D Speed, Infiltrate - Though I only us it against those pesky crisis suits) but how do manage it with Witch Hunters?

And more importantly how could I solve said problem with lots of S5 AP5 shooting?

[Blayze]

I'm going to assume it has something to do with the Sisters Repentia and the Holy Rage special ability.

Holy Rage: Models affected by this rule who are not already engaged in close combat must move at their maximum Movement rate +D6" towards the nearest enemy unit. This extra movement is not affected by difficult terrain. In addition, they must always charge and make a Sweeping Advance if able to do so.

0-1 Sisters Repentia

Sister Repentia - 20 points (WS 4, BS 4, S 3(6), T 3, W 1, I 3, A 1, Ld 6, Sv 4+)
Mistress - 30 points (WS 4, BS 4, S 3, T 3, W 1, I 4(5), A 2(3), Ld 10, Sv 4+)

A unit contains 1 Mistress and 4-19 Sisters Repentia.

They cannot ride in vehicles, and may be joined by a Priest, who will also be affected by Holy Rage if the unit suffers from it, and unable to fire a weapon in the Shooting phase.

"Only in Death Does Duty End": At the start of the Movement phase, roll a d6 to see if the unit is gripped so strongly by the desire to repent that it must rush towards the enemy. On a roll of a 1 or 2, they are subject to Holy Rage. While the Mistress is alive, two dice are rolled instead. If either is a 1 or a 2, the unit is affected by Holy Rage.

"Righteous Zeal": Should the unit ever fail a Morale check, they will move 2d6 towards the nearest enemy unit instead of falling back, at the end of the enemy Shooting phase. Should this extra move take them into contact with an enemy unit, they count as having charged in the subsequent Assault phase. In close combat, the squad automatically passes any Morale checks it is required to make.

(And if there's some way to MAKE them fail a Morale check... Mind you, you might still get that shooting, if you're lucky...)

Mind you, Holy Rage also affects Penitent Engines (And by the wording, it looks as if it's constantly on...). And I'd say perhaps you mean by using Celestine, but it says that her extra Assault phase move can't be used to initiate an assault...

Edit: My bad, it says that she can't use it to initiate an assault on the turn she Deep Strikes.

[LordVader]

I am intrigued...

I know how to get a first turn charge with a chaos lord (D Speed, Infiltrate - Though I only us it against those pesky crisis suits) but how do manage it with Witch Hunters?

Simple. A Callidus Assassin. She can be deployed anywhere on the board, and move, shoot and assualt first turn.(I know move and shoot, and I'm almost certain she can assualt as well.) Granted she's not going to be able to do a ton by herself, but excellent for harassment of shooty armies, and in general just screwing their plans up.

[Blayze]

Ah. And here I was, thinking it was due to some exclusive Witch Hunters unit (And therefore most likely due to a Sisters of Battle unit). Yeah, the Callidus Assassin is good for that, and us Daemonhunters get to use them as well.

"Polymorphine" special rule for the Callidus Assassin: The Callidus Assassin is always placed in Reserve, even in missions which do not normally use the Reserves rule. When she becomes available, she may be placed anywhere on the battlefield, and can move and fight normally in the turn she arrives.

Now I'm not up on the Reserves rule myself, but are they really availabe on the first turn? Or is it normal Deep Strike/Orbital Strike territory, where you have to wait until at least the second turn to use them?

I'm interested in seeing how the Sisters Repentia and the Penitent Engines work out, though...

The Callidus Assassin is one NASTY piece of work, at any rate. That C'tan Phase Sword doesn't allow ANY saves whatsoever, she can disengage at the start of ANY Assault phase, leaving that enemy unit unable to attack her (They can make a consolidate move at the end of the phase).

[LordVader]

And the best part is, any human army can get one, as long as they ally in an inquisitor. :belkar:
Also, after deployment, you get to move an enemy unit 6".:smallamused:
The only problem is she only has two wounds.

[Destro_Yersul]

What's her strength? I don't own either of those codexes.

[LordVader]

All assassins are the same S and T. I believe it's either 4/4 or 5/5, probably 5/5. And they all have a 4+ Invul.

[crazedloon]

"Polymorphine" special rule for the Callidus Assassin: The Callidus Assassin is always placed in Reserve, even in missions which do not normally use the Reserves rule. When she becomes available, she may be placed anywhere on the battlefield, and can move and fight normally in the turn she arrives.

I'm interested in seeing how the Sisters Repentia and the Penitent Engines work out, though...

The Callidus Assassin is one NASTY piece of work, at any rate. That C'tan Phase Sword doesn't allow ANY saves whatsoever, she can disengage at the start of ANY Assault phase, leaving that enemy unit unable to attack her (They can make a consolidate move at the end of the phase).

the only reliable first turn assault is DE :smallwink: 12 inch deploy 12 inch raider move 2 inch disembark d6 FF 6 inch ausault (12 with drugs on a wych) so that is 33-38 inches with normal units and 39-42 inches with drugged wyches now normally you do not want the full move so you prolly can drop the FF to add in some splinter cannon fire. And who says a DE army is weak you just need to learn proper deployment to avoid going second (that first turn volley of fire can hurt)

as far as the reserve rules they only can be rolled for (and they do have to be rolled for) after turn 1. The only turn one rolling army is speed freaks and as far as I know they are going bye bye as well.

As far as the DE going the way of the squats I will be rather pissed as well as confused as the DE have some rather key fluff reasons to be part of the game and they did not make them part of the eldar codex (which I would have been unhappy with but could have been more reasonable then dumping them entirly) so I can't see anyway they can viably write them out of the universe as they did to the squats (they all got eaten by nids) the DE are on a planet of unknown size covered entirly by DE who are built for battle and the only people who have a chance in hell of getting them are the eldar (and they don't even know where the planet is) Heck for fluff reasons a fraction of the harlequins are DE. So if you ask me GW would have a hard time getting rid of the DE but then again they have done similar dumb things.

[LordVader]

GW won't get rid of the DE. They have no plans for getting rid of any armies in the future, it's said, and besides there's still enough DE players around.
True, the DE get great 1st-turn assualts, but do they have the ability to let you move one enemy unit 6" after deployment?:smalltongue: No. Think of how much that can mess with your enemy, especially low-leadership or shooty ones.

[heretic]

Assassins are only S/T 4.

I think I would go for a Callidus myself.

[LordVader]

Still pretty good. Do you know how many ATK they get?
Callidus is extremely good for messing with them in general, though a bit pricey at 120 pts.

[heretic]

If I knew what 'ATK' was, then I would be more likely to be able to answer that.

[LordVader]

Amount of attacks. I think I gave you the wrong word, sorry.:smallredface:

[Logic]

Question for all you die hard 40K fans out there. Besides Dawn of War, is there any 40k video/computer games you know of that don't suck?

I like the "feel" of the universe, and would like to learn a little bit more before I spend a paycheck on miniatures.

[LordVader]

There's Fire Warrior, and a really old Epic-based game called Final Liberation, but I haven't played either. DoW will give the best "feel", though.

[Saithis Bladewing]

Space Hulk. Space Hulk not only keeps up the 40k feel, it exemplifies it. Space Hulk (for the PC, that is, the original DOS version) was one of the best games I will ever play.

See the opening here. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W81zmWiOzC4&mode=related&search=)
See a (unfortunately skippy and German) version of the gameplay here. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJWmtIfKkKw)

EDIT: Actually, in retrospect, do ignore that second video. It's a bad representation of the game, I think. He sets up his squad poorly and doesn't even kill anything, he just gets overrun and flanked.

[heretic]

Assassins have 3 attacks, plus one for a pistol. I think the Callidus has a pistol...

The other, cheaper assassin gets 1d6 attacks.

[Nocharim]

... but that's 'Advance Order', so presumably it won't be sent until the new codex is released :smallamused:

Actually they are selling that package first to make profit because people would buy the deal just for the codex.

Outriders and such naturally get one beforehand aswell.

And besides it has already leaked to the interwebs for every nub and teen to read. :smallannoyed:

[Destro_Yersul]

*Shrugs* I've got the Codex on advance order from my local GW. I'm just happy TS are getting an upgrade.

I would also like it to be known that I played them before they were good.

[heretic]

I wish they would update what needs updating rather than what makes money.

Give me some Ork action!

And I don't even play them.

[Destro_Yersul]

Orks are actually being updated fairly soon. They're one of the last armies to need it.

[Dragor]

Final Liberation- I just saw the intro vid for it.

:smalleek:

I need more. It looks like the kind of thing I would have watched as a TV Series (which is good)- the special effects looked quite good, Orks were sounded as they should do.... wow, more more more.

[Saithis Bladewing]

Dark Eldar need it more than Orks, but both armies are in desparate need of an update.

[Destro_Yersul]

Far as I know, there are no plans for a DE upgrade in the future.

[Mr.Shmatt]

Dark elder havent been updated for 8 years (not counting that "second edition" thing they brought out), and probably wont be brought out for another 8... as far as 40k updates go, it's random race, imperial race, random race, imperial race... chaos are being updated before orks, with dark elder not even mentioned, and there are supposed to be yet more sm chapters re-released...

It's put me off the thing more than i'd like to say

[trollhammeren]

Its not random, imperial, random, imperial. So far its been Space Marines, 'Nids, Tau, Black Templars(i think) Eldar and Chaos. Thats 2 imperial and 4 random. Hell, its not even order, disorder, order, disorder. Personally, i think their just doing it in any order that whatever department at GW updates codexs thinks best.

[Winterwind]

I'm certain it has been asked a thousand times within this thread alone, but I'm not about to wade through all forty-something pages, so...

I haven't ever played WH40k, even though it interested me for quite a while now, and I have two questions:

a) If I wanted to start playing WH40k, what would be required for a fun game and how expensive would it, roughly speaking, be? (I'm not talking about some huge campaign with all factions represented, but just enough so that two people could play a match against each other)

b) Since the background story of WH40k sounds interesting enough, would there be any books that just present the background in an interesting way, and which would these books be?

[Blayze]

Besides Dawn of War, is there any 40k video/computer games you know of that don't suck?

Oh HELL yes, Final Liberation. Ignore the other army options, and just keep on spamming that Titan button. At least until you start playing on maps with buildings that your Titan can't see into to kill what's in there.

Then you need tanks and infantry, but that's about it.

Also, I hear that Dark Omen was good. Only played Final Liberation, Dawn Of War (And Dark Crusade) and Shadow Of The Horned Rat, myself. SotHR was a bit buggy. The very first time I played it, I had a bug that meant I could only play the first level over and over, then it suddenly stopped letting me do even that.

Edit: You want a book for the background and fluff? Then get your hands on (I think I've got the title right) Deff Skwadron.

[LordVader]

Far as I know, there are no plans for a DE upgrade in the future.

There's been rumors flying around of a 2008-2009 'dex release for them.
As for what you would need to play a fun game, you can always get the Battleforces for $90, which give you roughly 500 points, but you need to buy a commander, except for the Nid battleforce. Then, you need the $50 rulebook, and at least two $20 codexes, one for each Battleforce army.

[Morrandir]

a) If I wanted to start playing WH40k, what would be required for a fun game and how expensive would it, roughly speaking, be? (I'm not talking about some huge campaign with all factions represented, but just enough so that two people could play a match against each other)

b) Since the background story of WH40k sounds interesting enough, would there be any books that just present the background in an interesting way, and which would these books be?

a) There's a set on the main page for the game that describes a scenario you can run with 2 people and 1 box of infantry, which is about 30-35 US dollars.

But, for an actual game, you'd need the codex for your army ($20), 1 leader unit (varies, usually in $17-$22 range) and 2 squads of basic troops ($70 for 2 boxes of guys). However, there is a box called a Battleforce, which nets you basic troops, a few more specialized units, and with some armies, a vehicle of sorts, for $90.

So, you're looking at about $130 to get started with a half-decent army, which may seem like a lot, but the nice thing is, you can stop buying after that :smalltongue:.

b) The Codexes for each army tell quite a bit about each, but a lot of it comes through the books (which I haven't read, unfortunately) and some fan-made stuff. If you do get into this, I'd highly recommend that, whatever army you play, look into the Orks. There's a reason why everyone loves them.

[LordVader]

If you're looking for 40k fiction, the Gaunt's Ghosts series is excellent.

[Blayze]

I cannot believe I forgot about Rites Of War (Or as I've heard it called several times before, "That Eldar Game".). I had played the demo to absolute DEATH when I was younger.


but just enough so that two people could play a match against each other)

That's the main box set, right there. Rulebook (Which also contains unit stats, IIRC...), two armies, dice, templates and additional pointless stuff. "Battle For Mag-something" is the latest one, I think.

[Eldpollard]

Dark Eldar wyches. They're very nice looking models and yet very unbalanced, they do not stand upright at all, it's rather annoying. They are in need of a re do as people said.

[Winterwind]

Okay, thanks everyone - guess I'll see whether I can find these books and boxes here as well (most certainly yes), and give it a try. :smallsmile:

[Capt'n Ironbrow]

Oh HELL yes, Final Liberation. Ignore the other army options, and just keep on spamming that Titan button. At least until you start playing on maps with buildings that your Titan can't see into to kill what's in there.

Then you need tanks and infantry, but that's about it.

Also, I hear that Dark Omen was good. Only played Final Liberation, Dawn Of War (And Dark Crusade) and Shadow Of The Horned Rat, myself. SotHR was a bit buggy. The very first time I played it, I had a bug that meant I could only play the first level over and over, then it suddenly stopped letting me do even that.

Edit: You want a book for the background and fluff? Then get your hands on (I think I've got the title right) Deff Skwadron.

Dark Omen is actually a better version of Shadow of the Horned Rat. It's the same basic game but has fixed a few of the problems you'd run into playing SotHR (like the invulnerability to anything but archers of flying units). There storyline is quite nice and typical of warhammer games, one great evil spawns (Nagash, lord of the Undead) and first drives some lesser evil into the Empire (Orcs again) starting the story for your mercenary captain (the same dude and company as in SotHR), there's even a little romance involved with the countess of Nuln who... gets kidnapped by a vampire...

[LordVader]

But that's warhammer fantasy, I thought he was asking solely about Warhammer 40k.:smalltongue:

[thedavo]

I
b) Since the background story of WH40k sounds interesting enough, would there be any books that just present the background in an interesting way, and which would these books be?

the Horus Heresy novels. the subject is pretty self-explanatory. i've just finished "Fulgrim" which is about the Emperor's Children. Not sure how up the german translations are though.

The Gaunts Ghosts books are awesome aswell. Basically Dan Abnett = win.

[Eldpollard]

The Ciaphas Cain books are hilarious. I recommend them.

[thedavo]

Cain is brilliant, such a good character.

at the moment, i'm waiting for armour of contempt to come out on paperback, cos i'm a cheapskate. although the new horus heresy book will probably be out before then.

not sure what 40k army to do next, although waiting for new orks is the most likely plan of action

[trollhammeren]

The Ultramarines omnibus is class. Uriel Ventris is one of the few cool Ultramarines, along side Galatan and Ideaus and a few more i cant think of at the moment.

[thedavo]

i've got well over a shelf's worth of black library books.

oops.

the ravenor and eisenhorn books are great aswell

[crazedloon]

Dark Eldar wyches. They're very nice looking models and yet very unbalanced, they do not stand upright at all, it's rather annoying. They are in need of a re do as people said.

I disagree with you on both points. My wyches for the most part stay standing (except the beast lord she always falls down and I have given up on her) but in my opinion the wyches are horrendous models. I don't know why they just don't appeal to me I guess a model that makes you confused on the gender of it and is a pain to paint and make look good is not appealing enough to me.

Now if you mean gameplay wise they are unbalance in a good way if you ask me. Run a 10 man unit of wyches against anything of equal size and you will always come out on top. just have 1 upgraded with an agonizer (or punisher if you are playing against weaker opponents) and combat drugs and you will kill 2-3 minimum per round for a loss of far fewer.

[LordVader]

Tell that to my Assualt Marine/Tactical Marine squad with a hidden powerfist.:smallamused:

[crazedloon]

Tell that to my Assualt Marine/Tactical Marine squad with a hidden powerfist.:smallamused:

ok?

Lets look at what you have

10 men ws 2 1 power fist 3+ armor save. 9(18)atcks 3power fist

what wyches have

10 men ws 4 1 agonizer/punisher (same in this situation) 4+ invuln (we will say this is round one to make it look more impressive + it is very unlikely that if these two units ever met that the marines would be the one charging) 27(37) normal 5(6) power weapon

Now I am no good at math but I can't see how that marine unit is going to win when they are always going to go second against that nmber of attacks all those normal attacks should take donw 2-3 minimum and like I said the power weapon wil take down andother 2-3 so now you only have half a unit :smallwink:

((edit and now I wil put my foot in my mouth as it has been to long since last I looked at the marine list but I believe point for point the wyches are cheaper))

[Fuzzy_Juan]

What about a broodlord with a retinue of genestealers?

Something tels me that the math will break down under a metric boop-ton of rending attacks...the stealers will have a better WS, more strength, a better toughness, more attacks (especially on a charge), and the broodlord will go first and make the squad never break no matter what because of synapse.

Even if it is just 10 basic stealers, those wyches are gonna be boned hard....hormagaunts might be a pretty even fight though, but the hormies will likely get the charge in that case only to be struck first by the wyches...very close.

[crazedloon]

hmm stealers may be harder what is their init again its been awhile?

plus they are not strong enough so their ws would be halved and the lack of an armer value means all those normal attacks will drop them dead. plus the likely hood of the stealer getting the charge is unlikely as the wyches (as all DE units should be) are going to be in a raider prior to the charge. even so the wyches still get their invulnerable vs the rending but I may be wrong. ((plus thats straight melee and who is dumb enough to deal with stealers only in melee))

[LordVader]

ok?

Lets look at what you have

10 men ws 2 1 power fist 3+ armor save. 9(18)atcks 3power fist

what wyches have

10 men ws 4 1 agonizer/punisher (same in this situation) 4+ invuln (we will say this is round one to make it look more impressive + it is very unlikely that if these two units ever met that the marines would be the one charging) 27(37) normal 5(6) power weapon

Now I am no good at math but I can't see how that marine unit is going to win when they are always going to go second against that nmber of attacks all those normal attacks should take donw 2-3 minimum and like I said the power weapon wil take down andother 2-3 so now you only have half a unit :smallwink:

((edit and now I wil put my foot in my mouth as it has been to long since last I looked at the marine list but I believe point for point the wyches are cheaper))

How much does a wych cost? Cause it's sure as hell not gonna be 10 wyches vs 2 marines. There'll be at least 5 marines. If wyches are strength 4, they're wounding on 4's- if they're Strength 3, they're wounding on 5's. And the vet sarge with the powerfist will kill at least 2 wyches, most likely.

Also, 'stealers will shred wyches. Initiative 6. 3 attacks with Rending. Also, if the DE are in a raider, that's like 5 more 'stealers right there.

[crazedloon]

wyches = 12 + weapons =1 + plasma grenade =2 = 15 pts each (thats the old cost of a marine at least the old one it could have changed)

the above was a ten man unit of marines each has 1 attack (2 if assault marines) and then the vet will have 2 base +1 for 2 weapons. Now their weapon skills drops to 2 do to the wych weapons so they are hitting on 4+ (no change I guess but wyches are hitting on 3+) they lose the the wych init of 6 and they will always fight in normal order do to grenades.
So like I added up each wych has 1 attack +1 two weapons +1 for charging (+1 for a lucky drug roll)
so lets say we go with the minimum attacks that is still 27 attacks 13 hits
5 wounds
and 2 dead men (thats with a basic chances)
then you have the leader which will have 2 base + 1 two weapons +1 charge +1 guaranteed drug (+1 rolled drug)
so thats minimum of 2 hits
1 dead (power weapon)
so that is only 3 dead true (a little lower then I had bosted but lets look at the return)

now you have 6 normal men so
thats 3 hits
1 wound and
50%dead then you have your
power fist who has
3 attacks 1 hit
1 wound 50% dead
so you kill 1 to my 3 next round it will be similar and I will win.

As far stealers go

9 stealers goes thats 3 attacks each (I think) so 27 13 hit (2 dead) 5 wounds 2 dead I don't know brood lord stats so I cant work with him

and in return they lose 6 (see above math for reason)

(we go "at the same time" )


Hmm and if I am not mistaken stealers are more then 15 points and the lord is going to be more then the leader so the extra 60 for the raider (which alone can probably acount for 2-3 dead in any of the above examples) is not going to matter

[LordVader]

Stealers are 15 points, and you don't even need the Broodlord. Base Stealers are enough. And you assume that on a 50% hit chance, the vet sarge only gets 1 hit instead of 2. No good. It could go either way statistically, 1 hit or 2. Also, I'm curious, how exactly do these weapons work? Is there a save? Also, for power armor, 5 wounds is 1-2 casualties, not 2. Statistically, 6 wounds is the 2-casualty mark for power armor.

I have to say, stealers would definitely win in an equal points battle against wyches. Tougher, stronger, same init, and rending.
Also, you shouldn't assume you get the charge. For statistical accuracy, it should be base attacks only, plus any bonuses they would get regardless of charging.

[crazedloon]

((note I don't want to get into an argument I am just saying))

hmm I rounded down for both sides

hmm I may have screwed that up a bit. But its close enough I am just saying I believe that the wyches can beat marines ((at least I have never run them into a marine unit an lost and I roll badly))

As for stealers I would argue the opposite (how many attacks do they do) do to the lack of any armor/guns.

like I said the above takes no acount for shooting which would acount for maybe 1 or 2 stealers

my main reason for assuming the assault is that 1 steales will not be in assault turn 1 and nids do not have enough fire power to drop all the raiders and with proper movement the DE can easily out maneuver the nids with little need to worry this means you will fight only when you want to. It is a little harder vs marines but it is possible do to the turn 1 assault range of wyches.

[LordVader]

I agree that in close combat, wyches trump marines. That does not take into account Marine shooting, though. The DE are sorely lacking in anything to deal with the close-combat juggernaughts that the nids can serve up, however.
Just to repeat, if you're going by statistics, don't assume assualt, it's better for proving what's better if you take the units by the base profile.

[Fuzzy_Juan]

I'm confused...the wyches obviously have some sort of wierd special rule that goes with the wytch weapons...the program I have says enemy models never count as having 2 ccw and can reduce strength with some exceptions...I don't have th codex DE so the specifics are lost on me...do they also reduce WS of the enemy? If so, is it for their attacks or attacks against the wytches?

My list says they are WS 4 BS 4 S 3 T 3...init 6 and a single base attack with the wytch weapon adding a second in close combat. They are listed as having a 6+ save though wytch dodge might be the 4+ invul that had been discussed...

Stealers without upgrades have WS 6 S 4 T 4 init 6 and 2 base attacks (rending) with a 5+ base save.

Now...without screwy mods...this looks like they strike at the same time, wytches hit on 4+ and wound on 5+, or 1/3 of 1/2 the attacks will wound...so 6 attacks for one wound and the 5+ save of the stealers is good to go. Stealers will hit on 3+ unless something modifies their WS, and wound on 3+ against whatever save the wytches have in CC...for every 6 that is rolled to hit, it is an automatic wound that their armor save is useless against...only invulnerable saves will work. so out of 6 attacks, you get 1 rending hit and 1 wound on average...

I don't know what sort of wacky stuff they have that will save them, but right now it seems as if they are quite squishy...

[crazedloon]

ya it has been a while since I last saw the stats for genstealers so I am sorry if I am wrong (for some reason I thought they had no armor)

the wych weapons
get rid of any extra attacks due to extra weapons
and get 1/2 ws if they have str < 6


Hmm ok I will stop this descusion on my part at least until I can get the actual stats

[Destro_Yersul]

Stealers don't need extar attacks, really. On a charge (which they generally get), they have four attacks each. And rending. And Init 6.

Anything comes up Sixes = Mostly Dead wych. Anything which hit, and didn't rend, wounds on threes. Mostly dead wych.

The trru enemy of wyches, however, is Grey Knights. For one reason only: Psycannons. Invulnerable save? What invulnerable save?

[Morrandir]

Well, I made up for my previous defeat. By a lot.

I played a 1500 point game against an Eldar player. I Deep Struck a Monolith smack dab in the middle of his army, which put ALL his units in range of the flux arc. Ended up rolling a 3 for number of attacks, and once the firing stopped, he was left with a crippled Falcon, a Wave Serpent, a single Warlock, a War Walker, a Fire Prism, and a very wounded Avatar.

And then my 20 warriors in reserve emerged...

[Fuzzy_Juan]

ya it has been a while since I last saw the stats for genstealers so I am sorry if I am wrong (for some reason I thought they had no armor)

the wych weapons get rid of any extra attacks due to extra weapons
and get 1/2 ws if they have str < 6


Hmm ok I will stop this descusion on my part at least until I can get the actual stats

Hmm...I don't know how long ago you played with the wyches...but as of the 3rd ed codex which appears to be the most current the wyches aren't all that badass...The 3rd ed codex even differs from the program I have a bit in terms of cost and other stuff...but the codex matches the product ID code on the Games Workshop store so it is probably correct.

Wyches no longer have any spiffy dodge ability, only 3 models can be equipped with wych weapons at no extra cost...the weapons are neat though...one gives opposing models in contact with the wytch a -1 to hit and gives +1 attack and first strike in round 1 of combat...another makes the wych strike on init 1, but gives +1 attacks and after attacks are tallied for the model, they double...the last weapon gives +1 attack, allows the wytch to 'pull' a model up to 2" away into base contact, and denies the use of 2 ccw in models directly engagued with the wych.

I can only assume that the wyches with wych weapons are treated as characters and only effect models within 2" of them for special effects...which could wind up being everyone in the combat depending on placement. The combat drugs are random unless 'controlled' by the succubus that may be attached, so no use trying to rely on any specific drug ability.

given this...the wyches are kinda nasty...they can be in a raider, but the raider has AV 10...very light and can be downed fast with light weapons...a dakka-fex could rip the vehicle apart pretty easy with it's str 6 shots...not to mention the hurt a barbed strangler or venom cannon can do to it...open topped vehicles are boned by those...

Stealers are 16 pts. base...so in all fairness, unless the wyches have a succubus with some gear, 10 stealers is more points of doom than the wyches. Depending on the combat drugs and spacing of units, the combat could possibly be tipped in their favor even against stealers...but heads up...noone...and I mean noone wants to mess with genestealers...they are just nasty in CC. With the new codex, since wyches don't have an invulnearable save, they just get murdered by rending attacks. Genestealers are 'fleet' as well...so yes...don't count on either side getting the charge over the other...

[LordVader]

Yeah, stealers shred just about anything in CC. The fact they're stronger and tougher then the wyches doesn't really help either.:smalltongue:

[Issabella]

How does the daemon hunter army work, is it a separate complete army list? Or does it work in conjunction with space marines/ imperial guard?

[Fuzzy_Juan]

How does the daemon hunter army work, is it a separate complete army list? Or does it work in conjunction with space marines/ imperial guard?

yes...on both accounts.

Daemon hunters can be used by themselves as your army, and can include allied space marines and inducted imperial guard...

Likewise...just about any marine or guard force can use daemonhunter allies.

If you choose daemonhunters, you can choose inquisition which has grey knights to a limited degree, or a grey knight army...I think...things get a bit fuzzy...Some people think it is best to be pure, or to be inquisition using GK sparingly due to their high cost...some feel the best use of grey knights and other inquisition figures is as allies in other armies. One cannot deny the power of a Grey knight force in reserve to counterattack any close combat when you are playing guard...to use them properly, you'll need daemonhunters, IG, and space marine codecies I believe...along with assasins if you plan on using one.

[LordVader]

Witch Hunters and Demon Hunters are both inquisition. Witch Hunters have access to Sisters of Battle and some other weird stuff, like Penitent Engines. Demonhunters get Grey Knights.

[crazedloon]

fuzzy the wyches did get "updated" what you are reffering to is the old version they are now 12 points 13 with wych weapons.

the new weapons halve the ws of opponent (for all purposes) if thier str is below 6 and negate any extra attacks do to extra weapons.

raiders are not all that great I agree but then its a vehicle which moves 12 inches allows you to deploy 2 inches to its prow and still shoot/ausault easily worth the 55 points

old weapons were fun but a pain to keep track of though a succubus with the init 1 weapon combat drugs and a agoniser was a true horror in combat. hit/wounding on 4s so 50% 2base +1 2 ccw +1 charge +1 drugs +1 drugs x2 =12 attacks 6 hits 3 wounds (and if you rolled really well that can take out a unit) add in the drug to always go first (and hope you do not roll doubles with the drugs) and you could end a combat before it even starts

[Fuzzy_Juan]

fuzzy the wyches did get "updated" what you are reffering to is the old version they are now 12 points 13 with wych weapons.

the new weapons halve the ws of opponent (for all purposes) if thier str is below 6 and negate any extra attacks do to extra weapons.

raiders are not all that great I agree but then its a vehicle which moves 12 inches allows you to deploy 2 inches to its prow and still shoot/ausault easily worth the 55 points

old weapons were fun but a pain to keep track of though a succubus with the init 1 weapon combat drugs and a agoniser was a true horror in combat. hit/wounding on 4s so 50% 2base +1 2 ccw +1 charge +1 drugs +1 drugs x2 =12 attacks 6 hits 3 wounds (and if you rolled really well that can take out a unit) add in the drug to always go first (and hope you do not roll doubles with the drugs) and you could end a combat before it even starts


Ahha...I found it...chapter approved 2004...I see...+1 per model, halves the weapon skill for attacks against the wyches...does not apply to the wyches attacks against their target though...wych dodge is 4+ invulnerable but only in close combat...like they have storm shields...ok...

still...they will have their work cut out for themselves against the genestealers...and if the broodlord is with them, he will likely have feeder tendrils...which mean they would hit on 3+ regardless of weapon skill shenannegans...their 4+ invulnerable is the only thing going for them in the rending fest o' doom...and heaven help them if they get shot at by anything...their 6+ save really doesn't make them that robust in the shooting phase...

[nathkry]

Well, I made up for my previous defeat. By a lot.

I played a 1500 point game against an Eldar player. I Deep Struck a Monolith smack dab in the middle of his army, which put ALL his units in range of the flux arc. Ended up rolling a 3 for number of attacks, and once the firing stopped, he was left with a crippled Falcon, a Wave Serpent, a single Warlock, a War Walker, a Fire Prism, and a very wounded Avatar.

And then my 20 warriors in reserve emerged...

It seems like the eldar player took too many large fire magnets. I usually only take one or two, but I play more infantry heavy eldar.

[crazedloon]

Ahha...I found it...chapter approved 2004...I see...+1 per model, halves the weapon skill for attacks against the wyches...does not apply to the wyches attacks against their target though...wych dodge is 4+ invulnerable but only in close combat...like they have storm shields...ok...

still...they will have their work cut out for themselves against the genestealers...and if the broodlord is with them, he will likely have feeder tendrils...which mean they would hit on 3+ regardless of weapon skill shenannegans...their 4+ invulnerable is the only thing going for them in the rending fest o' doom...and heaven help them if they get shot at by anything...their 6+ save really doesn't make them that robust in the shooting phase...

DE in general are not to robust vs shooting :smalltongue: (not that stealers and smaller nids are :smallwink: )

I still think it would be a fair fight if not overwhelmingly on the wyches side (but then I am biased) do mainly to the shooting phase prolly taking down 2 stealers by wyches and 1-2 by raider (dependent on weapon) And the only reason I am sticking to my guns with the wyches getting that shooting phase/charge is do to the fact that vs nids (particularly ones playing prevalent stealers/lords) the DE player can play more conservatively and use cover to block line of sight and maneuver his raiders easier (do to the fact that the stealers/nids are doing half of the movment for them) and thus only engage on his turn.

I guess on a terrainless board I would give the fight over to nids though as they do have high quality big guns vs raiders they just don't have them in the number most other armies do.

Though realy my power hitter vs low armored foes is scourges who deep strike where needed and drop 16 str 4 ap 5 shots the turn they come in and move 12" and can repeat (they single handedly won me a game vs an eldar player as they ripped apart 2 dire avenger units and caused his banshees to run off the board with no loses in return :smallbiggrin: he was rather unhappy particularly because he was winning prior to the turn the DS and killed the banshees)

[Morrandir]

It seems like the eldar player took too many large fire magnets. I usually only take one or two, but I play more infantry heavy eldar.

That was the problem. He did have a good number of infantry, which got shredded by the Monolith flux arc.

[kiingdrac]

Fear the Chaos. finally new models for Chaos.

[evisiron]

Looking at the leaflet, the models are pretty disappointing. I just jumped to 'nids, and am not regretting it at all.

The plastic terminators are very like the metals, except less well defined/ detailed. It makes them look rounded, almost 'hug-able' (friends words, not mine). The lord sits in the Jesus Christ Superstar pose, with his lightning claws held losely at his sides. It is the body language people use to appear friendly or honest. The possessed don't look too bad, but I fear they may not be customisable in the slightest (though just going by models, could be wrong). This would be annoying, because possessed were always the 'convert this one!' miniature.

The new squad stuff is useful (icon and the such) but the new helmets look like they came from a costume store, with the almost goofy mouth pieces.

Compared to updates on other models, it doesn't seem quite up to scratch.

But hey, maybe they will look better up close :smallsmile:

[Issabella]

I want to thank everyone on their advice. I am putting together my list of purchase, order really. I am trying not to be haphazard about this. What I wanted to ask today was what use have you players found for the scarab swarms and wraiths? Neat tricks? or simply stick with warriors, destroyers, heavy destroyers and lords with resurrection orbs?

[evisiron]

Oh, nice question.

Wraiths: Not really worth it. The invulnerable save is pretty rare in the necrons, but for the points, it really is not that great.

Scarabs on the other had, are the single most annoying unit in the necron army (for you opponent at least). This is mainly due to the fact that they move as jetbikes. Thats right, up to 24" turbo boost (which gives them an invun save for a turn) and they are swarms. This means they can very quickly get into enemy lines and either:
a) Force the enemy to shoot at the scarabs, which means less shooting at everything else
b) Jump in and tie up an important unit in combat for a while. This is especially good against dark reapers, heavy weapon squads etc. They might not win the fight, but as each base has 3 wounds and is fearless, those precious rounds of lost shooting can really make a difference.

Also, if you give them disruption fields they can cling onto vechiles and do some damage.
So overall, the scarabs are pretty underpriced for 12 points a base, making them almost essential. The only reason I would not take them is that they take up a Fast Attack slot which could otherwise go to destroyers.

[evisiron]

Just needed to ask:

I am trying to keep my entire tyranid army plastic, but want to use Hive Tyrants. Are there any good methods of making effective tyrants from other models?

[Were-Sandwich]

With sufficient Milliput/Greenstuff and a carnifex kit, you can makle any 'zilla beast.

[Krytha]

With sufficient Milliput/Greenstuff and a carnifex kit, you can makle any 'zilla beast.

Hmmmm hard work or 1 metal model?

[Issabella]

Thanks Everis for the advice. I was looking at what to buy and when and the scarb bases where going to build up from the warrior kit, and the two box sets I plan on purchasing. Which would give me 68 necron warriors, 6 destroyers, and 17 swarms over the next few weeks

[Were-Sandwich]

Hmmmm hard work or 1 metal model?

Yeah, but the Hive Tyrant looks kinda lame.

[Fuzzy_Juan]

Yeah, but the Hive Tyrant looks kinda lame.

what? The tyrant looks sweet...especially with a decent paint job.

[TheOtherMC]

At least its all metal....I still want to meet the genius who decided to only make the feet of a broadside metal. CRISIS ANKLES: MY TRUE NEMISIS!!!!!

[evisiron]

Thanks Everis for the advice.

Sorry, could not help but laugh when I saw this. So many people don't say my username correctly out loud (mainly because I didn't quite spell it the way I should have, but refuse to change) but this is the first time someone has typed it the way people say it (wrongly). :smallbiggrin:

Anyway, have fun with the necrons. Final tips: If you do have several squads, give the smaller squad disruption fields and move it behind the big unit. There is a very low chance your opponent will should at the more expensive bases, until it is too late... Muahaha..

And don't forget to take a few destroyers. They also have great firepower and speed. Always field at least 1 unit if you can.


----

Anyway, I was building the 'fex today, and it does seem that I could make it into a tyrant. Thanks for the heads up.
Now I am just try to get stuff pieced together. I am going with the age old trick of using magnets 9which worked perfectly with the warriors). I am also trying to have one gun on each side of the body (initial build is the Strangler and Venom Cannon) with the ammo tube leading into the bottom of the gun from the socket behind it.

This is proving tricky as the gun arm will only stay upright if I have the ammo arm attached with its own magnets. Also noticed was that if I change the configuration, I will have the gun onone side and 2 claws on the other. I am wondering whether to just glue the arms on and be done with it. Any thoughts?

Just to note, I was considering adding some mechanical pieces into the bigger nids. Can anyone suggest a source?

[nathkry]

I was lying in bed recently thinking about my eldar force, trying to find a way to get a reliable turn 1 assault, as I have tried to do ever since deciding to make my army close combat oriented, when I thought that I could just take a five man pathfinder squad for 105 points.

Basically, they are BS 4 guardsmen with 36" range sniper rifles and bolt pistols, with the scouts rule, fleet of foot, a +2 bonus to any cover save, and all to hit rolls of 5 or 6 count as ap 1 (sniper rifles only). In close combat, they only have WS 3 and S 3. They are a troop choice.

The basic tactic with them would be to deploy as close to the enemy as possible. You would use the scout bonus move to get them into terrain with a decent cover save, and use your move, fleet move, and assault move to get into close combat first turn, tying up a unit for the first round (two if you're lucky), whild the harlequins, striking scorpions, banshees, storm guardians, etc... to close in without taking as much fire, or being charged themselves.

How does that sound?

[Fuzzy_Juan]

umm...isn't that just a screened advance with a 'denied flank' style deployment (flood one side)?

Since the 'screen' of close combat will likely be unreliable, why not try to rely on cheap units and vehicles with 'smoke' or the equivalent along with terrain to screen your advancing close combat troops.

Also, remember that it will largely depend on your opponent... if you are facing a large close combat army, you won't want to rush in too far if you get first turn...and they might feel the same way against you...if you are facing an opponent like the guard, you are going to get shot...no matter what you do...along with getting pounded by ordinance on nice squishy troops.

I would just say try to rely on things that can be used in every scenario against every opponent...since the 1st turn rush is not guarenteed, see about focusing on setting up a good screen of LOS blocking vehicles if possible to screen your advance...make sure that you can lay down enough fire to take out or occupy their heavy weapons and anti-tank so that your screen sticks around long enough for the escort into close combat.

[evisiron]

An effective Turn 1 assault with the eldar is almost impossible.

What you can do is stop things getting shot on the way to combat, either through:
-Tooled up falcons. When moving these things are very very tough to bring down, and since no-one can get the penetrating hit vs the skimmer, the troops are pretty safe. This means you 6 man squads can hop out and tear it up in turn 2 (if you go for the direct approach)
-Harlaquins: With the Veil of Tears, very little can shoot at these, until they reach the average roll of 14" (well within Har charge range). However, be careful with this. I proxy tested this against my potential shooty tyranid force, and it managed to kill all 30 harlaguins in a single round of shooting. T3 and a 5+ invun just does not hold up too well against even the weakest guns.

But most importantly, I would not advise you to use the ranger tactic. They are 19 points a model, and you are just handing those victory points to your opponent. If you really want to hold up a unit with rangers, shoot at them with many small rangre units to force as many pinning tests as possible.

[Wehrkind]

Ok, I am back from vacation. Over which time, I made a hard decision:

I am pulling the Sisters Repentia (and by extention the Penitent Engines, due to losing the Priest.)

Short battle report, the Repentia did reasonably well for themselves shredding a Chaos Lord that had assaulted a squad of Sisters (who held out like champs), but only after running the opposite direction after a squad of infiltrating raptors who had a first turn assault. While 14 Str6 powerfist attacks were fun, and did the trick nicely, not being able to put them exactly where I wanted them bothered me. What really bothered my though, was hoe I lost 8 of them the next turn to a tank with heavy bolters and a havoc launcher. While they got the nice 2d6" move after taking that hit, and were able to contact some Rubric marines after, the remaining few were cut down in melee before they got to kill more than 1. So a 290 point unit killed maybe 120, and didn't draw much fire in the process.

Filling their slot, and the 240 points where the now jobless Penitent Engines were, will probably be 3 Death Cult Assassins, and a sqad of Grey Knight Terminators. I figure with a Callidus (who really did well, killing a 6 man squad of Chaos Termies almost single handedly before being dropped by a Gift of Chaos) the DCA's can infiltrate and kill heavy shooty things more reliably than the Repentia (at <1/2 the cost), and the Grey Knights are hard as nails, offering a good deep striking force to either counter melee things that got too close, too quickly, or deal with problems my mid-range bolters just can't reach.
The extra points also allow for more Seraphim per unit, which is yummy.

As a side note, to anyone thinking of adding Inquisitors to their armies, get Daemon Hunter Inq's, not Witch Hunters. The Ordo Malleus does everything their buddies can, but better, and with more options. Want a shooty Inq retinue? WH are limited to 3 gun servitors, and then storm bolters on Inq and Acolytes. DH can give the Inq a bloody Psycannon (heavy bolter ++). Melee? Don't bother with WH, but DH can get Termie armor as well as more general purpose smashy weapons. DH are also better vs. psykers. The only real bonus WH have are the +Victory Points items for killing psykers. Seriously.

Though Inferno Pistols are fun. I enjoyed walking my Inq. up to a Dreadnought with Mark of Tzeentch and Bolt of Lascannon (yes, I know they can't have Marks, but he didn't) and wrecking it with an Inferno Pistol.
"What is she even armed with?" he asks as I park her 2" from the machine.
"An inferno pistol."
"What's an inferno pistol?" he asks.
I then proceeded to school him in what an inferno pistol is.

[Blayze]

Got an upcoming battle sometime this month or so. My Daemonhunters against an almost-full Daemon army. By the scale of the whole situation that was mentioned to me, I'll assume that it's 2000 points. Now, I've been toying with several different plans for my army list.

Do I take him on with seventy-one Grey Knights (One Brother-Captain and seven full squads of 'normal' Grey Knights, no upgrades whatsoever), or do I use a mix of Grey Knights and Inquisitorial forces, tie him up to start with a Callidus Assassin and drop a Lance Strike on his head as soon as possible?

Also, why does the special rule "The Shrouding" suck so much? We have a house rule where it's beefed up slightly (2d6 times three, instead of 3d6 times three), and it still proves all but useless.

[evisiron]

You lucky person, a daemonhunters force vs a daemon army!

(By the way, he is not entirely daemons, right? Still needs someone to summon them in. Or was this houseruled out for a better battle).

Personally, I would probably try and take as many GK as possible, due to the fact that they get the nice rules vs daemons (1/2 WS I believe). I would normally encourage some balance, such as anti tank weaponry, but if it is all daemons you really have nothing to lose with a gun line of psycannon wielding daemon hunters!

[trollhammeren]

Id say go for around 50-60 grey knights and leave some points for some upgrades or termies but it all depends on what kind of deamon he uses. If he uses mainly khorne or slannesh, then the termy armour becomes very handy for you and very annoying for him, as bloodletters have power weapons and deamonettes have rending. But then against khorne, your specially consecrated ammunition becomes less effective as they have 3+ saves as well as the invulnerable saves. Your best bet is to kill as many as you can before he can charge you, which shouldnt be too hard as all GK weapons are assault weapons.

[Blayze]

Not a clue how it's going to be house-ruled, other than the phrase "Summoning Daemons every turn." As for the faction, I've got no idea either. Still, an army of Storm Bolters should cause some havoc, aye? And apparently yes, it is going to be just Daemons.

Bah. If Deep Striking ever went my way, I would consider dropping thirty Grey Knights and a Grand Master and nine Terminators on the outside of his little party, and plonking the Lance Strike and Callidus Assassin right in the middle of his army. :)

I can see his face right now.

"Oh crap, which way do I go?!"

[nathkry]

Looking at the Pathfinder tactic, it does seem pretty risky. If I manage to pull it off decently, then my army would benefit, but the chances of that happening are rather slim. More likely they gert chewed up and spat out. I might try it w/ proxies sometime, but not much further than that.

[Issabella]

[QUOTE=evisiron;3019989]Sorry, could not help but laugh when I saw this. So many people don't say my username correctly out loud (mainly because I didn't quite spell it the way I should have, but refuse to change) but this is the first time someone has typed it the way people say it (wrongly). :smallbiggrin:


hehe no problem, I am an actual dyslexic, who works night work. So my spelling, sentence structure, and wording occasionally comes out as a dreadful insult to the English language.

[Jalil]

Oh, nice question.

Wraiths: Not really worth it. The invulnerable save is pretty rare in the necrons, but for the points, it really is not that great.


I would have to disagree. As an add-on to a shooty army, then yes, they are not that great. When deployed as a wraith wing, then you can cause some real chaos. Check out the tactica at www.thecsg.co.uk in the tactica library.

[Dib]

Anyone else seen the new chaos codex? Tis awesome! :smallamused:

Also, anyone else on Warseer? Maybe know why its down?

And Eldar, who plays Eldar? Anyone got any advice for startin them?

[Blayze]

And Eldar, who plays Eldar? Anyone got any advice for startin them?

1) Never underestimate the power of your vehicle upgrades.
2) Scatter Lasers good. "Just how many shots do you get with that one weapon, again?"
3) D-Cannons crazy. "I'm shooting at that unit. Right, they no longer exist."
4) Always upgrade your Rangers to Pathfinders. The look on your opponent's face when you inform them that your unit has a 2+ cover save...

[Dib]

:smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin:

Cheers, will keep it all in mind,

[thedavo]

1) Never underestimate the power of your vehicle upgrades.
2) Scatter Lasers good. "Just how many shots do you get with that one weapon, again?"
3) D-Cannons crazy. "I'm shooting at that unit. Right, they no longer exist."
4) Always upgrade your Rangers to Pathfinders. The look on your opponent's face when you inform them that your unit has a 2+ cover save...

solution: set them on fire.

[Destro_Yersul]

Or charge them. With frag grenades. Except for a very few specialist units, Eldar cannot fight close combat. Also:

5) Fire prisms are amazing. You should get some.

[nathkry]

And Eldar, who plays Eldar? Anyone got any advice for startin them? I play them, and have found that fire magnets (big, tough things whose main purpose is to attract fire) area must in most armies, especially if you have a lot of lightly armored troops. Wraithlords and Falcons perform this task quite admirably, I've found.



Or charge them. With frag grenades. Except for a very few specialist units, Eldar cannot fight close combat. Also:

5) Fire prisms are amazing. You should get some.

The "few specialist units" being over half of your elites choices, as well as storm guardians and warlock units.

Fire prisms are indeed awesome, especially with their combine beams ability, which makes their shot twin-linked, increases the strength by 1, and reduces the AP by 1 as well.

[Destro_Yersul]

Admittedly, I play marines. The absolute nastiest thing Eldar have in close combat right now are Harlequins. And I'd even charge those to get away from their shooting.

*shudders* Eldar shooting is Death for low-number armies. And High number armies. And all the armies in between.

[Dorizzit]

I find that my three favorite Eldar units are:

Dark Reapers: Seriously, those guys are incredibly strong at a range. A Tempest Launcher on an Exarch with Fast Shot is 3 strength 4, AP 3 small blast shots. Plus, 3+ saves mean that they can often survive return fire.

Fire Dragons: Strength 8, AP 1 Melta Weapons for everyone? Need I say more?

and my personal favorite:

Wraithlords: The majority of units in the game can't even harm this thing in Melee. My personal favorite build on it is a Scatter Laser, Wraithblade, and two Flamers.

Edit: Destro_Yersul, truer words have never been said.

[Healos]

Hey I'm thinking about getting into Warhammer...what the best faction? I like the Tau and Space Marines so far but what would you suggest?

[TheOtherMC]

Hey I'm thinking about getting into Warhammer...what the best faction? I like the Tau and Space Marines so far but what would you suggest?

I see by your sig you've already made the first step twords the right choice.....muahahaha *GREATER GOOD*

[Bryn]

I'd reccomend not going Space Marines for the reason that the vast majority of players do play Space Marines, so you will vanish into a crowd of Marine players - as well as the risk of being 'just another marine player', a lot of armies are designed to defeat Marines, and there are players who dislike them because of their popularity.
On the other hand, Marines have a lot of support from GW, and Marines are a fairly easy army to play, as they are quite forgiving of mistakes due to strong defensive characteristics and generally being reasonable at most things. They can support a lot of variety, with the Chapter Traits system in the codex or even one of the variant Marine lists such as Black Templars and Dark Angels. :smallsmile:

Anyway, apart from that, go with whatever you feel like - if an army doesn't appeal to you, it will be no fun to build, paint, or play with. The Games Workshop website has information about the armies, and if one catches your eye borrow the codex and read up further about it.

Some armies are harder to play than others. The Dark Eldar, for example, are apparently very challenging to play but devastating if played right. They are also the army least supported by Games Workshop and probably most overdue for new models or a new codex.

[Wizzardman]

Righto, folks, sorry to interrupt the current conversations, but I'm new to the game, and I want your opinion on a small army of Slaanesh Noise Marines I just created.

The army, along with the backstory behind their creation (because I'm a geek, and felt they needed a backstory), is in the spoiler box below. Feel free to complain, praise, or declare me a heretic as much as you want. Its a rather small army (only 750 points), but the group of people I'm playing with are also newbs, so we decided to play with a low point number until we can get the hang of this.

The Legion of Super-Heroes tm

Backstory:
Realizing that total destruction, while thoroughly enjoyable, is a difficult concept for the general public to latch on to, Space Marine members of the cult of Slaanesh decided to 'reimagine' Slaanesh's hordes into a more public-friendly image, making it easier to spread the Cult of Slaanesh amongst the people of more civilized Imperial worlds, and hopefully allowing the Space Marines involved to score more chicks. Thus, out of several parts of the Emperor's Children, along with a few more recent recruits, the Legion of Superheros was formed.

Led by Captain Yesterday and the mighty Dreadnought SuperKing, the Legion of Superheros has begun a campaign of pillage and plunder across hundreds of worlds, and dropping off pamphlets along the way, promising "Killer Parties" and "Hot Babes" to all who would enter the Eye.

Of course, the effectiveness of this tactic is questionable, but a number of worlds have rebelled against the Empire at the mere suggestion of a Legion of Superheroes sighting, and Imperial leaders cannot help but notice the hordes of young people wearing "Superking" t-shirts, staying up past curfew, or partaking of drugs and alcohol.

Millions of teenagers have died in the purges that followed such sightings.

Unit------------------------------------------Point Total for this Unit

HQ:
"Captain Yesterday" Chaos Lord
[ws5/bs5,s4(6),t5,w4,i5,atks 5,LD10,sv 3+/5+]---------------------60
Sonic Blaster [+5]: Range 24", str4/ap5, Assault2/Hvy3-------------65
Darkblade[+25]:Close Combat, power weapon,----------------------90
****+2 to Str when wounding or penetrating armor
Chaos Marine Bike [+30]: Fast Attack Movement--------------------120
****Meltagun[+10]: Range12",str8/ap1,Ass1,+d6 armorpen in 6"----130
****+1 toughness, +1 atk (both included above)
Mark of Slaanesh [+10]--------------------------------------------140
****Fearless
****Warp Scream: Enemies in close combat have init reduced by 1
Daemonic Essence [+15]: +1 wound (included)----------------------155
Daemonic Mutation [+15]: +1 atk (included)[crazy hair]--------------170
Daemonic Aura [+15]: 5+ Invulnerable save--------------------------185

Troops:
"The Band" Slaanesh Noise Marines
[ws4/bs4,s4,t4,w1,i4,atks1,LD9,sv3+ armor]
9 standard Chaos Marines and 1 Aspiring Champ----------------------153
****Aspiring Champ: ws4/bs4,s4,t4,w1,atks2, LD10, sv3+ armor
*******Kai Gun [+25]: Range24", str6/ap3, Assault 2----------------178
*******Mastercraft Weapon: reroll 1 miss/round -------------------188
Close Combat Weapons--Axes---------------------------------------188
Sonic Blasters [+35]: 7 Marines, Range 24", str4/ap5, Assault2/Hvy3---223
Blastmaster [+10]: 1 Marine, Range 36",------------------------------233
*****Str5/Ap5/Asslt2 pin or str8/ap4 hvy1 blast
Meltagun [+10]: 1 Marine,Range12",str8/ap1,Ass1,+d6 armorpen in 6"--243
Mark of Slaanesh [+50]----------------------------------------------293
*****Fearless------------------------------------------------------293
*****Warp Scream: Enemies in close combat have init reduced by 1--293

"The Girls" Daemonettes
****[ws4/bs0, s4, t3, w1, i4, atks1+1, LD8, sv5+ invulnerable]
5 Daemonettes-----------------------------------------------------75
Warp Scream: Enemies in close combat have init reduced by 1--------75
Daemonic Talons: Close combat, autowounds on a 6------------------75
****If a 6 is rolled on ArmorPen, add +d6 to armor pen total
Daemon Summoning: Roll d6 on turn 2+ to summon unit---------------75
****Summons on turn 2 with 4+; on turn 3 w/ 3+; on turn 4+ with 2+
****When summoned, scatter around a target w/ Icon of Slaanesh
Daemonic Instability: On morale checks, take 1 wound/point failed by--75
****instead of fleeing

Heavy Support:
"SuperKing" Chaos Dreadnought-------------------------------------75
[WS4/BS4, S6(10), F13/S13/R11, I4, A3]
Multi-Melta [+40]: Range 24", str8/ap1, Hvy1, +d6 ArmorPen in 12"---115
Sonic Blaster [+2]: Range 24", str4/ap5, Hvy3-----------------------117
Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon [Str10 in cc, ignore armor save]--117
Fire Frenzy: Roll 1d6 at Movement phase of each turn----------------117
****On 1:Must move 6+d6" towards nearest enemy & assualt if able
********If/when assaulting: x2 number of attacks
****On 6:Cannot move; shoots both weapons twice at nearest enemy
********If no enemy available, shoots friendly
********If no enemy/friendly in range, treat as a 1 on FireF
Warp Amp [+20]: Enemies at -1ld in 12"/-2ld in 6"/-3ld in Contact----137
Blasphemous Rune[+10]: Enemies tankshocked take -1ld-------------147
****[-4ld w/WarpAmp];
****Enemies in close combat take -1ld [total -4ld w/WarpAmp]
Daemonic Possession[+20]: Ignore Shaken/Stunned------------------167
Mutated Hull [+30]: +1 to All Armor (already included above)---------197

Total: 197+75+293+185=750 points

[Fuzzy_Juan]

If you are gonna have a 'band' of chaos...they need to be a good heavy metal band led by a full blown daemon prince named Baalzeboss :smallbiggrin:

[Wizzardman]

If you are gonna have a 'band' of chaos...they need to be a good heavy metal band led by a full blown daemon prince named Baalzeboss :smallbiggrin:

Yeah, but I need more points before I get a daemon prince. I'll save Baalzeboss for when I move up to 1,500 points.

[Destro_Yersul]

Try for one at 1000pts instead. That's standard game night size, and anything larger than that is likely to be a tournament.

[Morrandir]

The Eldar player I decimated says I made a mistake with the Monolith, and that it wasn't a legit victory because of it. He says the Particle Whip and the Flux arc cannot both fire in the same turn. In the Codex, it makes no mention either way.

Anyone able to inform me on this?

[Fuzzy_Juan]

The Eldar player I decimated says I made a mistake with the Monolith, and that it wasn't a legit victory because of it. He says the Particle Whip and the Flux arc cannot both fire in the same turn. In the Codex, it makes no mention either way.

Anyone able to inform me on this?

If you use the power matrix as a particle whip, then it counts as firing an ordinance weapon...if you use ordinance, then you can't fire any other weapons as per the core rulebook. The flux arc is a defensive weapon, but if you fire off an ordinance blast, the rules state that you cannot use another weapon. He is correct as far as I know...

Now...if you use the energy matrix to transport troops around then feel free to blast off the flux arc.

Also note...if a unit is eligible to enter play via reserves...they must use the portal of the monolith, and thus use up the power matrix for the turn (aka...no ordinance blast that turn in shooting)

[Dragor]

Some armies are harder to play than others. The Dark Eldar, for example, are apparently very challenging to play but devastating if played right. They are also the army least supported by Games Workshop and probably most overdue for new models or a new codex.

Couldn't be a truer quote. My friend is the only person who plays Dark Eldar probably in the whole GW store. He's very hit-and-miss with his victories, sometimes he'll crush them outright, and on others the same will happen to him.

[evisiron]

Indeed. I place a great deal of the hit/miss chance of the DE victories into whether the skimmers got blown out of the air by turn one. If not, likely DE victory, if so, likely defeat.

[Were-Sandwich]

The fact their skimmers can be shot down by boltgun fire kinda makes that a rather likely.

[Blayze]

Now that's just silly.

Had a 2v2 (1k points each) with my Grey Knights fighting alongside a Raven Guard (At least, I think it was Raven Guard) army. Our opponents? Orks and Imperial Guard. Two 'elite' armies against two 'horde' armies. I was facing off against the Ork player, and my ally against the Guard.

Stupid fool REFUSES to put his Chaplain in with his Assault Marines, where he will NOT get shot to pieces. And in other news, causing Mob Checks is not a good thing when you realise that the survivors from every decimated Ork squad across the board have joined up with the squad that contains the BOSS, and they are less than six inches from your front line.

...Then the artillery landed, and I lost half of said front line. Needless to say, we lost completely.

[onasuma]

That reminds me of a good story (one that Z axis will no doubt recognise).
2V2 400 points each. Me and my partner are using guard, opponents using eldar.
They had spent a large amount of points on close combat squads. I had on the other hand gone for purly troops (and an HQ) with no upgrades at all. My 50 stong squad of conscripts (Only one of which died in the whole game), shot his combat squads to ribbons before they got close.
And the moral of the story is eliet units are only as good as you use them.

[Destro_Yersul]

My marine army is fairly large, for Marines. At 1000pts I've got 33 models.

2 of which are rhinos. I've got a ten man assault squad with a Chaplain, furious charge and a powerfist. They have a tendency to obliterate anything they charge on the turn they charge it.

[crazedloon]

one of the scariest thing to be assaulted by is a chaplain leading a fully decked out Dark Templar marine unit. I play DE and I am scared of those units. they run 10 neophytes 10 marines and 1 chaplain all re rolling wounds (if I am not mistaken) with a 4 str and 4 ws that is a scary thing indeed add in the 2 power fists they can have (if I recall correctly its been a while since I had to get smushed by them) and you will lose with most any squad unless wielding power weapons (and even then you will lose a lot of models)

God I hate them due the deadly mix of elite/horde type unit

[Fuzzy_Juan]

one of the scariest thing to be assaulted by is a chaplain leading a fully decked out Dark Templar marine unit. I play DE and I am scared of those units. they run 10 neophytes 10 marines and 1 chaplain all re rolling wounds (if I am not mistaken) with a 4 str and 4 ws that is a scary thing indeed add in the 2 power fists they can have (if I recall correctly its been a while since I had to get smushed by them) and you will lose with most any squad unless wielding power weapons (and even then you will lose a lot of models)

God I hate them due the deadly mix of elite/horde type unit

Only one 'cure' for such a problem...have a higher init than they do, and when they charge you, kill the chaplin first and hope you get lucky and waste enough of the troops that you can live...if you kill the chaplin on the charge...do they get the litanies of hate? you can target characters if they are in close combat correct?

I wonder how they would fare assaulting a Hive tyrant and 3 tyrant guard equipped with a toxic miasma and a lash whip bone sword and scything talons on the tyrant...

[Eldpollard]

You can target characters, but not stuff like squad leaders.

[crazedloon]

Fuzzy the reason I mentioned DE was because they are good in CC but that unit is still a pain to kill. I would not be surprised if that nid unit won but it sure as heck is coming out of the fight a warrior or two short (I would think I am not sure how many attacks that nid unit has)

[Fuzzy_Juan]

Fuzzy the reason I mentioned DE was because they are good in CC but that unit is still a pain to kill. I would not be surprised if that nid unit won but it sure as heck is coming out of the fight a warrior or two short (I would think I am not sure how many attacks that nid unit has)

a close combat tyrant will likely have str 6 toughness 6 with a 2+ armor save ws of 6 and the toxic miasma reduced the WS of attackers by 1...scything talons gives the tyrant 4 attacks in close combat, 5 if they have a pair of scything talons without the lash whip.

the guard have 2 attacks base, 3 if they have scything talons as well as opposed to lash whips...there can be up to 3 guard each with ws 5 str 5 and toughness 6 and 2 wounds a piece

a maximum total of 14 attacks on init 6 and/or 5...with rending on the guard. A full strength tyranid HQ is pretty evil.

we shall ignore the horrid cheese that is a broodlord and his retinue...

[Destro_Yersul]

Yes, but how many points is said full strength Tyranid HQ?

The Chaplain and his buddies can chew through a lot, yes, but something like that would give em pause. But hey, that's what Neophytes are for, eh?

Eight wounds? Ok, there go eight expendable scouts. *Smite*
*Nid Death*

[Fuzzy_Juan]

Lets see...*fiddles with program*

A Hive tyrant, toxin sacs, toxic miasma, implant attack, extended carapace, adrenal glands (+1 init and +1 WS), 2x scything talons

3 tyrant guard rending claws and scything talons

total cost...300 pts...

a chaplin with 10 man assault squad...2 power fists, articifer armor on the master of sanctity...terminator honors on the master and the sargeant...

total cost...430 pts. Most strike on init 4, chaplin stgrikes on init 5, but if he uses the power fist, he goes last with the sarge...

the black templar chaplin and 10 crusaders and 10 neophytes...2 powerfists...articifer armor on the chaplin...445 pts. init 4 again for everyone. 5 for the chappy, 1 for the powerfists.

very true though...the tyranid squad would never be able to kill enough men to take out the squad, and the chaplin would ensure that they would not break...tyrant would do the same on the other side...and if they charged...it would just be sick...even with the toxic miasma, they would be able to hit with enough wounds to probably down at least 2 of the guard even after taking casualties...the tyranid only hope would be to charge them and focus on killing the chaplin as fast as possible...on the brite side...the black knight chaplin with the huge squad will be slightly bulky and on foot meaning that they hopefully would be able to get charged, or softened up with some form of ordinance...barbed strangler anyone?

edit: For true anti-chappy madness...we have the broodlord and suped up retinue of DOOM!

Broodlord (ex carap, imp att, tox sacs) ws 6 str 6 t 5 w3 init 7 A3/4 3+
11 genestealers (ex carap, ST, tox sacs) ws 6 str 5 t 4 init 6 A 2/3 4+

the price tag...399 pts...

thats right kiddos, you get the broodlord, and 11 of the devourer's fineist for only 399 pts. That includes 37 rending attacks in close combat on init 6 and above with str 5 and a weapon skill of 6...add to that the broodlors ignores armor and gets 2 for 1 on wounds due to the implant attack and you have a mob of death that only fears massive fire barrages...on a charge...that would be 49 rending attacks...

:smallfurious: feel the pain!!!

[Destro_Yersul]

The Broodlord is just stupid, I'll admit. It deserves to meet Vindicators. And Whirlwinds. And Leman Russes, and Defilers, and pretty much anything else that can chuck a pie-plate.

Best thing for taking out big bugs though? Librarian. Get him a familiar and he's striking at Init 6. Admittedly Str 4 isn't going to go very far, but considering he can instant kill synapse creatures by taking an unmodified leadership test...

[evisiron]

Yeah... always a good idea to shoot the guy with the force weapon first. It annoys me though that immunity to instant death can be bypassed by a force weapon :smallconfused:

Anyway, I am wondering about using the broodlord instead of my slow and usless hive tyrant. I had dismissed it due to the number of times I have seen 'stealers not reach combat due to about 4 heavy bolters.

Any comments / experiences?

[Fuzzy_Juan]

Yeah... always a good idea to shoot the guy with the force weapon first. It annoys me though that immunity to instant death can be bypassed by a force weapon :smallconfused:

Anyway, I am wondering about using the broodlord instead of my slow and usless hive tyrant. I had dismissed it due to the number of times I have seen 'stealers not reach combat due to about 4 heavy bolters.

Any comments / experiences?

As long as you can position the infiltrators with some good cover and can use some cover to get in close and charge, you are golden. be careful about distance since the broodlord doesn't fleet apparently, and the stealers with him don't either.

TMC's block line of sight don't they? Those can serve as effective screens since the carnifex's move pretty slow...at least for the first turn before the stealers outpace them...should screen them from too much cross table hate.

Lictors are alot of fun...them and raveners showing up at the right times can cause enough meyhem to keep some fire off your broodlord.

Basically though...you need to keep his head down until he can murder something...until then, the rest of the army is a decent enough fire magnet if you are agressive enough without being reckless. The broodlord is designed to be the vangard of the assaulting Tyranid swarm, so it is fitting that agressive tactics can allow him to do his job and do it well...

Alternatively, you can keep him back as a counterassaulting unit if you believe that your opponent will deep strike terminators in your back line, or will run right up on turn 1 and dump a librarian in your midsts, or jump a chappy with an assault unit nearby. Serve up some good bait, and then crush his main attack with your own brutal counterattack...remember a 'normal' chaplian murder squad is 430 pts...and a maxed out Broodlord squad is 300...that means that 20 fleashborer equipped guants can act as bait...or even 8 naked genestealers...or 13 naked hormagaunts...that is...if we are talking equal point exchange...430 vs. 430...I doubt though that the chaplin squad could stand an assault by a fully decked out broodlord and pals and be solvent afterwards... I'm not even sure if they could charge them and come out on top...

[onasuma]

Broodlords. In my experience, i only find them useful in lower point total games, where as in larger ones, you need all the synapse you can get. I really like how the broodlord works as well, but not worth taking unless your up against mainly 4+ saves or better.

[Healos]

OK I like the Tau, so should I just get the rule book or should I get the Battle for Macragge first?

[Bryn]

If you're going to play Tau, get the rulebook - the Battle for Macraage is only worth it if you play Space Marines or Tyranids, since those are the models in the box. Since you won't want the models, the full rulebook is both better and cheaper.

You'll also need the Tau codex. :smallwink:

[Nocharim]

Get the BfM.

BfM Hobby Set (60$)
- Smaller rulebook that is easier to carry around.
- You can sell the Tyranids/Marines or use them as decorations on your figures.
- You get terrain. Terrain is always good to have.
- You get dice.
- You get templates.
- You get paints.

BBB (50$)
- More background
- A few scenarios and rules for Killteams and so on. More or less nothing that you cant really get legally from interwebs or if so, you wont even be needing it.

And besides it costs you only 10 bucks more.

[Bryn]

The main rulebook, however, is a lot longer lasting than BfM (my BfM rulebook got completely ruined), and, more importantly, it contains a lot of background material not in the BfM book. Of course, I might be weird in liking the background, so it might not be a factor in your considerations.

The only terrain in BfM is a crashed Imperial ship, specifically Forge World's Aquila Lander. That's handy if you have an Imperial army, but if not it isn't particularly useful. The other item is an Imperial energy fence and a human crewmember figure - again, not that useful for Tau.

Still, I got BfM, but I wouldn't reccomend it to a Tau player.

[Nocharim]

Of course, I might be weird in liking the background, so it might not be a factor in your considerations.

Nothing wrong of liking the background, although it has had its silly moments. How they killed off Squats for example. For those that dont know it went like this.

Tyranids ate them. End.


The main rulebook, however, is a lot longer lasting than BfM (my BfM rulebook got completely ruined)

Must've been a Monday-edition, but the gluing on GW's booklets isnt that great anyway. The one we have in here has survived quite alot of bad handling and stains.


The only terrain in BfM is a crashed Imperial ship, specifically Forge World's Aquila Lander. That's handy if you have an Imperial army, but if not it isn't particularly useful. The other item is an Imperial energy fence and a human crewmember figure - again, not that useful for Tau.

Ah, but you forget the Auxiliaries. A bit of spare bitz from the Firewarrior box and you have managed to get one out of the crewman. A friend of mine made his Stormtroopers like this (A bit of Green stuff to act as boots for the hoof-fishies.)
Do remember that most of the area gained by Tau in 3rd Sphere Expasion was formerly in Imperiums control. So they might be leftovers from the previous occupiers or just plainly hijacked by a man turned to the Greater Good.


Still, I got BfM, but I wouldn't reccomend it to a Tau player.

Perhaps not, but it is an ideal starter package for a new player and some older players buy it just for the LBB and resell the stuff they dont need.

[Destro_Yersul]

Get the BfM.

BfM Hobby Set (60$)
- Smaller rulebook that is easier to carry around.
- You can sell the Tyranids/Marines or use them as decorations on your figures.
- You get terrain. Terrain is always good to have.
- You get dice.
- You get templates.
- You get paints.

BBB (50$)
- More background
- A few scenarios and rules for Killteams and so on. More or less nothing that you cant really get legally from interwebs or if so, you wont even be needing it.

And besides it costs you only 10 bucks more.

Actually, you don't get paints. Your best bet for tau, I'd say, is the battleforce, codex, rulebook, and a hobby starter set. It'll set you back a fair bit of green, but you'll have everything you need to get started.

[The_Squid]

It may sound like flaming, but I really have to say this.
Please don't play Tau. They make babies cry. They have no real stats, just some fancy-shamncy guns that look like boards. They are horrible in CC and have no redeeming features.
Ok, my rant is over.
I play Orks, as you can tell from my sig. They are lots of fun, but not for everyone. Consult a doctor before using Orks.
I would recommend IG. They're a nice, rounded-out army with decent foot troops and some really kick-%&@ tanks.

And this might be a little late, but Wizardman, I recommend the name "Dreddy G" for your dreadnought (or however you spell it). I always liked Dreddy G.

[Krursk]

It may sound like flaming, but I really have to say this.
Please don't play Tau. They make babies cry. They have no real stats, just some fancy-shamncy guns that look like boards. They are horrible in CC and have no redeeming features.

Ok, I don't play Tau, but in the essance of fairness, I have to disagree with a few points.
Nothing says "pwned" like finding out about a Strength 5 Crisis Suit a minute before he mushes your uber-HQ character of doom. And then explodes.
Stealth suits are fun against Orks with their jumping forward, fragging the Orks and then jumping back to 24" away skills.
And their guns are redeeming features. They have infantry with Strength 10 AP 1 guns. You have to respect that.

[Saithis Bladewing]

Ok, I don't play Tau, but in the essance of fairness, I have to disagree with a few points.
Nothing says "pwned" like finding out about a Strength 5 Crisis Suit a minute before he mushes your uber-HQ character of doom. And then explodes.
Stealth suits are fun against Orks with their jumping forward, fragging the Orks and then jumping back to 24" away skills.
And their guns are redeeming features. They have infantry with Strength 10 AP 1 guns. You have to respect that.

I respect it. It's why Tau are one of the five armies I play (the others being Witch Hunters, Imperial Guard, Orks and Thousand Sons).

[Siric]

Yeah, Krursk is right. And, don't forget the Kroot! "We hide in teh bushes and shoot at you... and then eat you." And DROOOOOOOOOOOONES! One of the Tau's most redeeming feature is Pinning. I was able to Pin half of an IG player's entire army. That was nice. The 4+ for Troop Armour is also decent, for 10 points? Plus their Str5AP5 gun? And MARKERLIGHTS! Little red beams of death! And Farsight! Mister "I have 7 Crisis suits right behind me, and I'm going to charge you.... after I shoot you." And Vespid!

Oh, and Saithis? Witch Hunters rock... And Orks also rock, as long as they're Feral Orks :p

[Saithis Bladewing]

Yeah, Krursk is right. And, don't forget the Kroot! "We hide in teh bushes and shoot at you... and then eat you." And DROOOOOOOOOOOONES! One of the Tau's most redeeming feature is Pinning. I was able to Pin half of an IG player's entire army. That was nice. The 4+ for Troop Armour is also decent, for 10 points? Plus their Str5AP5 gun? And MARKERLIGHTS! Little red beams of death! And Farsight! Mister "I have 7 Crisis suits right behind me, and I'm going to charge you.... after I shoot you." And Vespid!

Oh, and Saithis? Witch Hunters rock... And Orks also rock, as long as they're Feral Orks :p

Don't forget Gue'la auxiliaries for further fun.

Witch Hunters are awesome, but Orks rock so much they've got roks. Roks make sure nothing is rockier than an Ork. Nothing is meaner or tougher than an Ork, and no Ork is meaner or tougher than Gorgutz ('cept maybe Ghazgkhull, nobody's bigger than Ghazghkull, you gits).

[Wizzardman]

And this might be a little late, but Wizardman, I recommend the name "Dreddy G" for your dreadnought (or however you spell it). I always liked Dreddy G.

Dreddy G. I like it. I'll take that into consideration. Thanks.:smallsmile:

[Nocharim]

Actually, you don't get paints.

Yes, you do get paints. (http://store.us.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.us?do=List_Models&code=305795&orignav=305795&ParentID=259568&GameNav=10)



Immerse yourself in the grim darkness of the far future with the Battle for Macragge. Fight battles between the glorious Ultramarines and their most vicious foes, the Tyranids, as they clash on the Ultramarines' home world. In the box, you'll find an introductory guide, fifty (50) Citadel miniatures, dice, rulebook, twelve (12) paints, and a paintbrush.

[MR.F]

I got a Space Wolves army around 2000 points. I pray to Odin for the new army book will be a good one.

[Healos]

OK well I've got dice, being a D&D player, I'm making some terrain right now...so I'll get the main rule book and the 'Codex: Tau Empire' and set or two of minis...dang this is going to be like a great axe to the head of my money...

[TheOtherMC]

dang this is going to be like a greataxe to the head of my money...

Hey...it could roll a one... :smallbiggrin:


Tau are not as worthless as Squid makes them out to be either. RIght off your fire warriors have THE best basic troop weapon in the game even if they do look like boards. Then you have the Tau plasma....oh the glorious Tau plasma....

[Krytha]

Nothing wrong of liking the background, although it has had its silly moments. How they killed off Squats for example. For those that dont know it went like this.

Tyranids ate them. End.

This is pure gold. The shiny kind.

[thedavo]

I play Orks, as you can tell from my sig. They are lots of fun, but not for everyone. Consult a doctor before using Orks.
I would recommend IG. They're a nice, rounded-out army with decent foot troops and some really kick-%&@ tanks.

And this might be a little late, but Wizardman, I recommend the name "Dreddy G" for your dreadnought (or however you spell it). I always liked Dreddy G.

Orks iz da best.

ok, maybe not, but they're a laugh, and have the most random weapon in the game... for now. i hope the zzzap gun doesn't go walkies in the new ork codex, it's the only ranged weapon orks had that's guaranteed to hit stuff. i was going to revamp my ork army a couple of months ago, but then i heard theyre doing a new codex so im holding out for that.

[Destro_Yersul]

Yes, you do get paints. (http://store.us.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.us?do=List_Models&code=305795&orignav=305795&ParentID=259568&GameNav=10)

I'd hardly call those paints. They're approximately one and a half centimeters tall.

[Saithis Bladewing]

I'd hardly call those paints. They're approximately one and a half centimeters tall.

I ran out of blue that was in the pot in order to try and get a proper paintjob halfway through finishing the ultramarines of the BfM set. The paints are not worth it.

[The_Squid]

They say they're making a new Ork codex, but they never will :smallfrown:.
They always make another one first; they say they'll make it "later." It's the oldest friggin base army codex in existence! Cmon!

And I know this kinda contradicts my previous statement, but I really don't hate Tau that much for their gameplay. I was just feeling really angry when I wrote that. What I really hate about them is that everyone think they're the "Good Guys." They're not. They're just as bad as the Imperium, who aren't the "Good Guys" either. The "Goodest" team is probably the Eldar; they're fighting for the right thing, and they aren't corrupt, they're just total jerks to everyone who isn't Eldar.

And Warhammer is actually cheaper than video games; if you add the cost of a 360 and all the cool games, it's alot more expensive than a decent sized army.

[crazedloon]

Hmm really ok so thats DE and orks with ould outdated codex.... who would be the retard who would play both armies from 3rd edition ..... oh damn thats me :smallfurious:

[thedavo]

They say they're making a new Ork codex, but they never will :smallfrown:.
They always make another one first; they say they'll make it "later." It's the oldest friggin base army codex in existence! Cmon!

they're next after chaos, out in the new year i believe.

next armies to be redone, in order are:

chaos (40k)
high elves (fantasy)
orks (40k)

then i dunno.

[Destro_Yersul]

And I know this kinda contradicts my previous statement, but I really don't hate Tau that much for their gameplay. I was just feeling really angry when I wrote that. What I really hate about them is that everyone think they're the "Good Guys." They're not. They're just as bad as the Imperium, who aren't the "Good Guys" either. The "Goodest" team is probably the Eldar; they're fighting for the right thing, and they aren't corrupt, they're just total jerks to everyone who isn't Eldar.

That's true. The Tau are a lot Nicer than the Eldar, so long as you see things their way. In the same vein, Orks aren't really evil. They just like fighting.

[Iamyourking]

Really the same theory applies to the Tyranids, who are just hungry.
The Tau are still probably "better" than the Imperium, but considering that only the Necrons, Dark Eldar, and Chaos are worse, that isn't hard to do.
Of course, despite my favoritism towards Eldar (Even their organs are neat and tidy), they are hardly good either. The entire war for Armageddon happened to save a few thousand Eldar lives which really shows the entire basic premise behind the Eldar philosophy "Who cares about anyone else, one Eldar is more important than the entire Imperium."

Regarding Tau, as I have said before, the Eldar made the Tau what they are and they almost certainly have a plan for them. If the Ethereals aren't already under Eldar control, which they are almost certainly are, the Eldar could control them at any time using the captured Q'Orl queen whose glands were duplicated and used to make the Ethereals in the first place. My theory is that the Eldar are taking advantage of their rapid technological advancement, natural resistance to the warp, and incredible gullibility to get them to remove Chaos and possibly other threats to the Eldar, and once they are done, the Eldar just remove the Ethereals and watch the Tau "Empire" dissolve into civil war. Afterall, someone has to be watching out for the stupid fish monkeys otherwise the Imperium would have bombed them to slag a long time ago. Afterall, the Tau navy is a joke, they have no battleships, very few other ships, their ships are very slow, they produce ships very slowly, and they have no navigators. This is all that it takes in a total war scenario. One battlefleet could turn the Tau Empire into nothing but burning husks and bad memories. I am sure that the Imperium realize this, and therefore I hypothesize that the Eldar must be stopping them from doing so for the reasons above. Plus, if anyone thinks that the Tau should be taken seriously all I have to say is 'Nicassar'.

To those who claim that the Tau have a chance of taking over the galaxy, you are completely mad. The Empire is less than 1/100 of the size of the Imperium and for all their technology, there is no technological equivalent of the navigator gene, which is possesed only by humans. As proof, I offer the Necrontyr, who before their pact with the C'Tan possesed the roughly same level of technology they do now, minus only the Necrodermis and Inertialess Drive. This is technology billions of years in advance of the Tau, and it still took the masters of the material plane to create something capable of insterstellar travel without using the warp. Admittedly the Tau do use the warp, but only in short hops along naturally stable routes, without a Navigator they have no hope of ever actually traveling distances on the scale of the rest of the galaxy. Most likely, this is deliberate on the part of Eldar, keeping the Tau contained until they need them, when they will probably give them limited access to the webway.

In conclusion, no one is good, the Tau are weaklings who are being controlled by the Eldar, and I talk too much.

[Dragor]

Wow. That.... that changed a lot of my opinion. :smalleek:

I hold the Eldar and Tau in higher regard than any other race (even my own- I think the Witch Hunters are absolute idiots, but I play them anyway :smalltongue: ), but I never got the idea that they were weak.

Oh, and what's Nicassar? C'mon, we can stick it to the Ethereal's, man!

[Dorizzit]

The Tau are very nice to you... until you decide not to join them... then they shoot you in the head and move on to the next one... for the Greater Good.

[TheOtherMC]

Really the same theory applies to the Tyranids, who are just hungry.
The Tau are still probably "better" than the Imperium, but considering that only the Necrons, Dark Eldar, and Chaos are worse, that isn't hard to do.
Of course, despite my favoritism towards Eldar (Even their organs are neat and tidy), they are hardly good either. The entire war for Armageddon happened to save a few thousand Eldar lives which really shows the entire basic premise behind the Eldar philosophy "Who cares about anyone else, one Eldar is more important than the entire Imperium."

Regarding Tau, as I have said before, the Eldar made the Tau what they are and they almost certainly have a plan for them. If the Ethereals aren't already under Eldar control, which they are almost certainly are, the Eldar could control them at any time using the captured Q'Orl queen whose glands were duplicated and used to make the Ethereals in the first place. My theory is that the Eldar are taking advantage of their rapid technological advancement, natural resistance to the warp, and incredible gullibility to get them to remove Chaos and possibly other threats to the Eldar, and once they are done, the Eldar just remove the Ethereals and watch the Tau "Empire" dissolve into civil war. Afterall, someone has to be watching out for the stupid fish monkeys otherwise the Imperium would have bombed them to slag a long time ago. Afterall, the Tau navy is a joke, they have no battleships, very few other ships, their ships are very slow, they produce ships very slowly, and they have no navigators. This is all that it takes in a total war scenario. One battlefleet could turn the Tau Empire into nothing but burning husks and bad memories. I am sure that the Imperium realize this, and therefore I hypothesize that the Eldar must be stopping them from doing so for the reasons above. Plus, if anyone thinks that the Tau should be taken seriously all I have to say is 'Nicassar'.

To those who claim that the Tau have a chance of taking over the galaxy, you are completely mad. The Empire is less than 1/100 of the size of the Imperium and for all their technology, there is no technological equivalent of the navigator gene, which is possesed only by humans. As proof, I offer the Necrontyr, who before their pact with the C'Tan possesed the roughly same level of technology they do now, minus only the Necrodermis and Inertialess Drive. This is technology billions of years in advance of the Tau, and it still took the masters of the material plane to create something capable of insterstellar travel without using the warp. Admittedly the Tau do use the warp, but only in short hops along naturally stable routes, without a Navigator they have no hope of ever actually traveling distances on the scale of the rest of the galaxy. Most likely, this is deliberate on the part of Eldar, keeping the Tau contained until they need them, when they will probably give them limited access to the webway.

In conclusion, no one is good, the Tau are weaklings who are being controlled by the Eldar, and I talk too much.

Ok ill just let most of that go to the fact it was 3 AM.....

Im not sure im getting where you think Tau have no navy. They do have battleships, battleships that even exceed Imperial performance its just every major loss against the imperium was from said imperium's overwhelming numbers. And sure they might not have the navigator gene, but they do have the air caste, Tau who have spent WHOLE GENERATIONS ENTIRELY IN SPACE never to feel natural gravity as it would be hazardous to their navigational skills. This doesnt excuse their inability to utilize the warp, but its not like they would anyway. They've been to the Peridous Rift, they know what ****ed up things come out of the warp, the have a massive battle fleet constantly on patrol around it.

Also, the Tau know they have no chance of "conquering" right now. They saw only a small fraction of what the Imperium could do during the Damocles Crusade and they know what would happen to them if they tried to enter an all out war. Thats why they're taking a more...subtle route (which now that I think of it is very... Eldar-ish) by slowly subjugating imperial commanders and governers at the borders of Imperium space, slowly gaining more and more supoort untill they could concievably topple the imperium from within a few millenia later. Damn that DOES sound Eldar concieved....

OUt of curiosity, was it ever confirmed the Eldar made the Tau and all that jazz? If so what book because ive always wanted some insight into that besides the vague quotes in the codex.

[TheOtherMC]

The Tau are very nice to you... until you decide not to join them... then they shoot you in the head and move on to the next one... for the greater good.

Fixed that for ya :smallbiggrin:

[Iamyourking]

It is never out and out said that the Eldar made the Tau, nor is it hinted at in the codex (At least the Eldar one), but the highly excellent book Xenology basiclly says it, as their is a race of insects called the Q'Orl, who 6000 years ago were aided by the Eldar before the Eldar stole a queen, which controlled the rest of the Q'Orl with pheremones. Note that 6000 years ago is the start of Tau history and the creation of the Ethereals who control the Tau with identical pheremones in an identical gland. Not only that, but as soon as the Tau reached a technology level capable of small space flight, they found a crashed Eldar ship on their moon, most likely placed their by the Eldar as they are far too good of navigators to crash.

Regarding the navigation skills of the Air Caste, while they are fine navigators in the Material plane, unless you can navigate the warp, (Which they can't do) use the webway, (Which they can't do and are not psychic enough to make a similar thing), have no souls in the first place (Which is partially true, but unlike Tyranids they would still be attacked by daemons), or just don't care (Like the Orks, and even then the Orks are very good at building force fields so it stands to reason that they could also make or salvage Geller fields. As the Necrontyr proved, if you can't navigate the warp, no matter how advanced you are, you aren't going anywhere unless you make a pact with godly beings who can manipulate the material plane (Which I feel that the Tau would not do).

Regarding the Tau battleships, when I said that I forgot about the Kor'Or'Vesh, I was only thinking about the Kor'Vattra. However, they still only possess one mark of battleship, and it is far weaker than anything the Imperium can offer. It is far undergunned compared to the Emperor, Retribution, Onderon, and Apocolypse class battleships and while its carrying capacity is impressive, the Emperor does it better and can actually fight better than a cruiser. Also, when one considers the Tau navy, you must also take into account that the rest of their ships are weaker than their Imperial equivalents, not to mention the ships of the AA. Of course, I will admit that their allegiance with the Demiurge gives the Tau access to ships that can match Imperial craft, but the Demiurge don't like to fight, and would most likely refuse unless the Tau are battling orks.

As for the Nicassar, they are space polar bears who fly around in dhows that they propell telepatheticly, which is every bit as stupid as it sounds.

Continuing the discussion of the Tau's chances of galactic success, while the absence of navigators is their biggest problem, one has to also consider that they are severely outnumbered, the Imperium does actually have more advanced technology as them (Just not as good of logistics), their navy is weak, and they are dependent on the Ethereals in long campaigns so all the Imperium would have to do is assassinate the ethereal advisors to campaigning generals and the Tau would have to deal with several cases of Farsight; and before you say that the Imperium couldn't assassinate Ethereals that easily, the Vindicare and Callidus assassins could both easily remove Ethereals as could the Eversor although they would probably leave too much damage to the Tau command structure. Really the same theory applies to all the Tau, remove the Ethereals and you remove the Tau as they fall back into civil war as they did millennia ago. Really, the Imperium could destroy the Tau at any time using just one ship, send a ship towards T'Au then drop out of warp space next to it, outrunning their big ships like the Necrons did (Although the Imperial ship wouldn't be as fast and durable as the Necrons, T'Au is far less defended than Mars and the Imperial ships won't be trying to land) then simply fire a barrage of virus torpedoes eliminating all life on T'Au. With the removal of the most of senior ethereals, at least their primary sept and possibly their entire empire would fall.

As for their current technique of trying to subvert the Imperium, it is a good idea but the Imperium is always under that kind of influence and the Tau aren't very good at it compared to the servents of the Ruinous Powers. The Tau have very little experience with the outside universe, and if they seem to grow too powerful, the Imperium would just squash them like bugs.

I still talk too much

[Dorizzit]

Thank you, TheOtherMc.

[JaggedWyvern]

I'm hoping to get started myself, playing the WH40K tabletop... But I want to try and get a deployable force planned out before I get the spruebits for the Space Marine army I want. My brother's got some Tau, though, so I've got a little bit of experience... Anyone who uses Space Marines want to help me set up my 'Order of the Exterminatus'? :B Just send me a message- I'm on my 3 messengers almost constantly.

[Destro_Yersul]

True, the Tau navy isn't that strong. But it's got one thing no-one else has: It fires around things. The Tau can kill you and you won't even see them fire.

Warp travel is too inaccurate to drop out right next to a planet. They could get lucky, and it could happen, but it would take more than one ship. Most of them would end up inside the planet, or too far away to make it before being shot down.

The crashed Eldar ship could be put down to a warp mishap. Even the Eldar get those, as evidenced by Eldar ships showing up as part of space hulks.

[Dorizzit]

Yes, however consider the odds of an Eldar ship crashing with its circuitry unharmed enough at the exact time necessary to grant the Tau the next best thing to warp flight. I see Farseer work in this.

[TheOtherMC]

So...let me get this straight.


1) Warp a ship in impossibly close enough to not be detected by the most heavily fortified planet in the Tau Empire.

2) Ship fires missle killing all life on T'au including command structure.

3) Kroot don't get paid...everyone dies.

4) ???

5) Profit

[Destro_Yersul]

The ship could have been there, circuitry and all, for a while before the Tau found it. Also, consider this: GW wants to include Tau in any campaigns they run. No warpflight, Tau can't get there. So they GW fiat them the next best thing as an explanation.

You say Farseer, I say Marketing Department.

[Iamyourking]

Admittedly, that plan was not perfect, I thought of it in a haste but I am unsure if you are aware of the fact that when running passive, a ship can not be detected by sensors, which is in fact how ships retreat in Battlefleet Gothic. Plus, if two Necrons jackals can run the blockades around Neptune, Titan, and Ganymede then evade the ships and guns orbiting Mars along with incoming ships from Terra and actually land on the planet I feel that an Imperial ship could do the same thing against a far worse defended region of space. Plus, their is also the fact that Tau freely accept traders from the Imperium, and Rouge Traders are known for having powerful ships allowing them to survive the hazards of space. This means that a Rogue Trader's ship could be commandeered (Preferably one that arrives frequently) armed with just one virus bomb in it's payload. Let it be known that the Tau are horribly uninformed about what goes on in the universe and seeing as no combat between humanity and the Tau has ended in an Exterminatus, they would remain unknowing of what is going on. The Rogue Trader ships then fires the bomb, scouring all life of T'Au and attempts to escape.

As for the possibility of the crashed Eldar ship simply being an accident, Eldar don't get accidents. Their souls are far too delectable for them to travel through the warp and the webway is protected against outside intrusion. Combine that with the fact that the Eldar are the best pilots in the galaxy, and the only possible result is that it was deliberate.

The ability to fire around things is already known by the Imperium and they would most likely have informed their escort ships providing anti-ordinance duty to be aware of such tactics, nullifying their advantage.

[Elfanatic]

What Iamyourking (of NO PANTS :smallbiggrin: ) is saying also sheds new light upon Commander Farsight.

Before this, there were three explanations for Farsight's actions:
- he is converted/corrupted to the cause of the C'tan (because of the Dawnblade)
- he is simply a renegade warlord
- he is still loyal to the Greater Good and is working undercover

But now we can add two others to this conspiracy theory:
- he found out about the/a Eldar plot, and feels betrayed by the Ethereal Caste (hence he kills them all)
- he is himself part of the/a Eldar plot, which would explain why he has lived for more than three centuries.

Offtopic:

So...let me get this straight.


1) Warp a ship in impossibly close enough to not be detected by the most heavily fortified planet in the Tau Empire.

2) Ship fires missle killing all life on T'au including command structure.

3) Kroot don't get paid...everyone dies.

4) ???

5) Profit

Underwear gnomes! They are the reason Space Marines are almost always in their armour!

[Iamyourking]

Thank you Elfanatic, it is good to see that someone is supprting me instead of trying to argue with the wall of text.

[TheOtherMC]

Thank you Elfanatic, it is good to see that someone is supprting me instead of trying to argue with the wall of text.

It was a big wall....I felt threatened...

[Dorizzit]

Well, everyone should keep in mind that a lot of people presenting arguments are merely playing devil's advocate, debating for the sake of debate.

[Morrandir]

I'm looking into the Thousand Sons as a possible next army, and I'm wondering about something random I thought of. Some transports allow units to fire out of them, and I think Chaos has one. Since most offensive psyker powers are used in the Shooting phase, does that allow a Sorcerer to use powers while in a transport?

[The_Squid]

Yeah, I think it does.

[Damionte]

This current course of the discussion is one of the reaosns I stopped playign 40K. The scale of it simply doesn't work.

These same rules worked ok with Warhammer Fantasy, but the same rules in 40K just don't work. The table is too small.

These peope have had eons of development and they've yet to come up with a tank design which can fire on the move. They don't even move that far and they can't fire. They move like 6 inches on the board which in thier scale is about 2 tank lengths. The thing is on idle and it can't shoot.

40K games needed to be played on much bigger tables. Like a 10 by 10 table.

[The_Squid]

But a 10 by 10 table would not only be hard to make and maintain, but you'd need a very large gaming space. By making the scale smaller, it means you need less terrain, less space and a smaller board.

[Siric]

The reason the board is so small is because a 10 by 10 Board is not best for a game that Lasts for Six Turns.

[Damionte]

Lasting only 6 turns doesn't scale well either. It's fine in a fantasy game, we're you rush to melee quickly.

There's no place for shooty armies in a typical 40K game though. it's all abot rushing accross the two foot board and gettign into melee. Which is a shame considering how many guns and lasers we're carrying around.

[Zorg]

There's no place for shooty armies in a typical 40K game though. it's all abot rushing accross the two foot board and gettign into melee. Which is a shame considering how many guns and lasers we're carrying around.

That's my biggest problem with the newer rule sets - melee was always very deadly, but a full on rush usually got chewed up by gunfire, reached the lines, killed one squad on the charge... and then had to stand there as their opponent got their turn. Definately put a good favour towards shooting, or at least a slower, gunfire heavy advance. Not to say the squad based assault rules aren't better, but all the follow ups and whatnot seem to make it a melee game with a sci-fi twist sometimes...

[Wehrkind]

Considering that the top 3 army lists are shooting heavy, I don't really see it as a melee centric game. I do like larger boards, but mainly because I like more manuever as opposed to "set and shoot".
Still, melee is strong, but generally not a stand alone option for all but a very few armies. Good placement and fields of fire for shooting troops can go a long way towards neutering a melee force. If that were not the case, Sisters of Battle and Tau could never win a battle to save their butts.:smallsmile:

[Dorizzit]

One word for those complaining about the scale: Apocalypse.

[onasuma]

So, new chaos codex is out, and has rendered my army redundent (at least strategy and character wise). Anyone else feel that chaos has been done wrong by this new book?

[Were-Sandwich]

The 40K rules would be much better from a logical perspective (How exactly does melee remain a viable tactic when everyone's carrying lasers and boltguns and what not) by changing the scale to 15mm, using bigger boards, increasing weapons ranges (According to GW's 1"=5ft scale a boltgun can only fire 120ft before the bullet jsut falls out of the sky. wtf?) a ton, and adding a 'defensive fire' phase where the other player gets to shoot back, after your shooting but before assault moves. Now whsooting is king, as it should be. 'nids and orks would probably need to be made cheaper so their ablative shielding can allow them to close to melee range.

[Dorizzit]

It remains a viable tactic, because who wants to play a game that's only about shooting?

[onasuma]

Tau stupid 10 character minimum

[Saithis Bladewing]

I'd prefer a shooting-dominant 40k, to be honest. :smallbiggrin:

[TheOtherMC]

It remains a viable tactic, because who wants to play a game that's only about shooting?
..........

Tau

EDIT: NINJA BASTARDS!

[Dorizzit]

Let me rephrase that, in response to the Tau players: Many people enjoy using melee as a primary tactic in their army, or at least like having the option open to them. If that option was made much more difficult, many more people would be unhappy than those that are discontent with the current rules. I may have worded that awkwardly, but I think I managed to convey the general meaning.

Edit: Ninjas?

[heretic]

Anybody know why this stretch is here? It's been bothering me for a while.

[TheOtherMC]

Let me rephrase that, in response to the Tau players: Many people enjoy using melee as a primary tactic in their army, or at least like having the option open to them. If that option was made much more difficult, many more people would be unhappy than those that are discontent with the current rules. I may have worded that awkwardly, but I think I managed to convey the general meaning.

Edit: Ninjas?

Honestly I dont mind close combat, I play Farsight :smallbiggrin:

[Morrandir]

Anybody know why this stretch is here? It's been bothering me for a while.

You mean the overly long page of posts? Been bugging me too.

I read a review of the new Chaos Codex, the author keeps complaining about how Chaos isn't very chaotic, then proceeds to whine about how random a lot of units are...

Hm...

[nathkry]

I haven't been able to check out the new chaos codex. What did they change?

[Morrandir]

Demons have apparently become general. You have Greater and Lesser. No distinguishing features between, say, a Lord of Change and a Bloodthirster. Or Daemonettes and Nurglings.

Fluff in the codex focuses more on renegade bands, rather than the Traitor Legions themselves.

There's other things, but I can't really tell you what they are, as I haven't seen much of the old one.

Also, hooray! New page!

[Dorizzit]

Yes, I believe they will be making an entirely new codex purely for Daemons.

[bigity]

Ultramariner for life!

"Courage and honour!"

[Avaris]

I have the new codex chaos (well, my brother does), and though we haven't used it yet the initial impresions are thus:
- Chaos marines have far less options avaliable, no vet skills etc, and it is no longer to have entire units of chosen aspiring champions (thank the emperor)
- Same goes for characters: demonic gifts are gone, seperate entries for Daemon Prince and Chaos Lord, though daemon weapons seem quite powerful
- Daemons are indeed generic only, and have to be summoned. Even the Greater daemons are generic. While slightly odd, I guess this makes things far simpler and if a codex daemons (and possibly, I hope, cultists) is coming that can be in more depth
- Defiler is much more combat orientated, but you get a vindicator to make up for it
- Rules for the various cult troops are simplified as well, though still look effective. Of particular note is the Thousand Sons, who now have only 1 wound but get an invulnerable save and AP 3 boltguns instead

Thats all I can remember atm.

[CaptainSam]

Word from my contacts within GW is that there will indeed be a Codex: Daemons released next year. As far as I know, the new Codex: Orks is due to be released first.

[Saithis Bladewing]

Word from my contacts within GW is that there will indeed be a Codex: Daemons released next year. As far as I know, the new Codex: Orks is due to be released first.

Clearly they'll put it off, 'cause Chaos is more popular.

[Avaris]

Orkses are released early next year... 7th January to be precise, with the army box a bit earlier. (this is according to the GW release schedule linked here (http://www.warvault.net/warhammer_realm/viewtopic.php?f=81&t=3938&start=0)

[nathkry]

Thanks for the answers. I looked at the 40k chaos site, and they didn't have a whole lot. I liked the different chaos factions presented there, and was wondering what the night lords get as benefits?

[heretic]

Night Lords get an extra Fast Attack choice for the price of two Heavy Support choices. I think. And there's probably more to it than that.

[Avaris]

Night Lords get an extra Fast Attack choice for the price of two Heavy Support choices. I think. And there's probably more to it than that.

Not any more they don't. All legion specific stuff is gone.

[onasuma]

Not any more they don't. All legion specific stuff is gone.

This makes me sad

[† Dran †]

*sigh* and there goes my alpha legion. really dont like these new changes unless they bring out a Codex: Traitor legions, which i doubt. :smallconfused:

[onasuma]

Codex: deamons comes out next year, which features traitor legions and lost and damned in more detail. Also this completly killed my army. Back to tau i go

[TheOtherMC]

Codex: deamons comes out next year, which features traitor legions and lost and damned in more detail. Also this completly killed my army. Back to tau i go

They always go back :smallbiggrin:

[Dorizzit]

Well, (insert random comment here disparaging the Tau for only having BS 3).

[TheOtherMC]

Well, (insert random comment here disparaging the Tau for only having BS 3).

We have poor eyesight! Why do you judge us so much for it?! :smalltongue:

[Dorizzit]

Wait, I thought they had BS 3 because Tau take a while to focus, not any problems with eyesight.

[heretic]

They have BS 3 because they are not amazing like marines. They're like normal humans, albeit with hooves and communist tenancies.

[evisiron]

Actually, look at the models themselves. The Tau have a digital vision slit on the left side of their face, but hold the gun lined with the right side of their face.

D'oh!

[heretic]

New Ogryn and Commissar models. Plus a new ginormous tank. Like a cross between a Hellhound and a Baneblade.

And for the rest of you, Vindicators, SM Vets and SM Chapter Masters.

[Penguinizer]

Meh, Does it seem to others that Nid's are just not that great, compared to a lot of other races. Yet, I really like the fluff. Tactics still help.

I really should get the rule book '-.-

[Sampi]

What gave you the impression that nids aren't good? I find it hard to lose with them, though I do manage that over 48'' of open ground. Add any cover and make target selection difficult, and it's easy to gain extra biomass for the Great Devourer.

[Funkyodor]

Yea! Finally some Green this Christmas! Some luv for the Orkses! Ahh, Shokk Attack Gun (albeit probably changed), Psychers, and new vehicles. Yea! Go Green Machine!

[CaptainSam]

The Shokk Attack Gun has changed too! It used to have a hopper on the top that they loaded grots into. Now it have a big hoover-like attachment. Damn them, now I want to get Orks!

[TheOtherMC]

Im looking over killteam rules and I realize.....Tau get screwed over? How am I supposed to field a decent and fully legal team with just one wound models?! Stealthsuit weapons are too powerful so it would pretty much be ALL fire warriors....whoo...that's exciting. Any ideas guys? P.S. I dont have/use Kroot or Vespid.

[Saithis Bladewing]

Im looking over killteam rules and I realize.....Tau get screwed over? How am I supposed to field a decent and fully legal team with just one wound models?! Stealthsuit weapons are too powerful so it would pretty much be ALL fire warriors....whoo...that's exciting. Any ideas guys? P.S. I dont have/use Kroot or Vespid.

Fire warriors aren't that bad, really. I made do with them. But yeah, unless you're into breaking mutable laws there's not much else you can have.

[TheOtherMC]

Fire warriors aren't that bad, really. I made do with them. But yeah, unless you're into breaking mutable laws there's not much else you can have.

Yeah, but my concern is they're fragile. Really, really fragile. Even if I could use stealthsuits though, 160 points wouldnt be much to work with......

[Saithis Bladewing]

Yeah, but my concern is they're fragile. Really, really fragile. Even if I could use stealthsuits though, 160 points wouldnt be much to work with......

If it's a kill-team mission, fragility isn't that big an issue, unless you're indoors. Really, a killteam of Fire Warriors should be able to fry any small units that come their way. Biggest worry is things like facing 'nids, just because of numbers and speed.

[TheOtherMC]

If it's a kill-team mission, fragility isn't that big an issue, unless you're indoors. Really, a killteam of Fire Warriors should be able to fry any small units that come their way. Biggest worry is things like facing 'nids, just because of numbers and speed.

Actually I think I'll just put out 13 Firewarriors and a Pathfinder w/ railrifle and just call it a day.

[Dorizzit]

What exactly is Kill Team, anyway? (I am apparently being punished for only owning the abridged rulebook from Battle For Macragge)

Edit: Score! First Post of page 50!

[TheOtherMC]

What exactly is Kill Team, anyway? (I am apparently being punished for only owning the abridged rulebook from Battle For Macragge)

Edit: Score! First Post of page 50!

Don't feel bad, I finally just ponyed up the mad cash for the real rulebook today. Too many rules in the new tau codex that didnt explain themselves.

Kill team is god. Its what I first thought 40k was about. A small personalized squad of models (4-12 members, models can only have one wound, weapons can't be too strong, and a few other things) sneaking in to do some damage or complete an objective while avoiding patrols and such. Think of it as playing as Gaunt's Ghosts off to kick the collective ass of some random ork base, each member of the squad can be converted to have their own personalities and roles. Pretty cool stuff.

[Dorizzit]

That's so cool. (Dang it, now I want a full rulebook more than ever!)

[nathkry]

What exactly is Kill Team, anyway? (I am apparently being punished for only owning the abridged rulebook from Battle For Macragge)

Kill Team is pretty fun, although there are a few unbalanced parts of it, but most games have some. My favorite game of it that I have played was when I took 1 howling banshee, 1 striking scorpion, 1 wraithguard, 1 warlock, 1 fire dragon, 1 dire avenger, and some guardians (there might have beeen a dark reaper or harlequin in there, I don't remember). I was playing IG, and I butchered him in the close combat that ensued.


Edit: Score! First Post of page 50!

You lucky dog.

[TheOtherMC]

Kill Team is pretty fun, although there are a few unbalanced parts of it, but most games have some. My favorite game of it that I have played was when I took 1 howling banshee, 1 striking scorpion, 1 wraithguard, 1 warlock, 1 fire dragon, 1 dire avenger, and some guardians (there might have beeen a dark reaper or harlequin in there, I don't remember). I was playing IG, and I butchered him in the close combat that ensued.


Oh god, I can imagine Eldar being so broken in Killteam with all those damn aspect warriors runnign around. Probably even better than IG since everyone will liiteraly have a specialty. At least you're not allowed to take grav-platforms....god I hate shuriken catapults.

[heretic]

IG are soooo bad at kill team.

As Brutes, they get the shaft since three guardsmen are basically nothing and your opponent can break laws without even thinking about it.

As the Kill-Team, they suck due to survivability issues and the fact that the only way to build an effective team is to break all kinds of laws, thus handing your opposition yet more of their Brute Squads, each of which is far better than the benefit gleaned from breaking said law.

The only way I can think of achieving a good IG kill team would be to use Colonel whatisface's Penal guys, or Ogryns. (illegal due to wound caps)

[TheOtherMC]

The only way I can think of achieving a good IG kill team would be to use Colonel whatisface's Penal guys, or Ogryns. (illegal due to wound caps)

Scaeffer? DUH! He's got Apache Chieif as his tracker :smallbiggrin:

[Dorizzit]

Colonel Schaeffer's last chancers, I think you mean.

[Eldpollard]

Dark eldar do well in kill team. I had my wyches in combat on the first turn to take out the objective. I was lucky, the drugs gave me 12'' assault.

[Destro_Yersul]

Friend of mine was playing kill team IG against 'crons. His boss brute rolled a six for bionics 4 turns in a row.

IG won.

[Eldpollard]

Low initiative is a problem in kill team. A lot of the time necrons don't see people until it's too late.

[Destro_Yersul]

The necrons were the kill team side. Small team, none of whom were specialists. Not exactly good, but they do stand back up.

[Wehrkind]

I have yet to play Kill Team, though it looks like a good time. I think when I get my marines painted up, I will have to use them as brutes vs. the Sisters. It would probably be a good way to get my fiance into the game, something small and not overly complicated (assuming I set everything up team wise for her.)

Trouble is figuring out a fair exchange rate for Sisters instead of Storm Troopers as brutes...

[heretic]

That's tough because sisters are only one point more apiece than storm troopers.

[LordVader]

I have just begun a Witch Hunters army with the purchase of the codex today!
For the exchange, you might want to look at the 6 SoB: 8 Stormies for Sentries.

[Dorizzit]

Bump. ___

[heretic]

New Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3104217#post3104217).

[Premier]

You do realise that as per forum rules, the "50 page then lock" rule is only for the Silly Message Board Games forum, right? There's absolutely no reason to abandon a 50-page thread anywhere else.

[Jacob_Gallagher]

That's so cool. (Dang it, now I want a full rulebook more than ever!)

The one that comes with Battle for Macragge IS the full rulebook. It just doesn't have the background and fluff, or the scenarios. But it contains all the same rules.