Final Fantasy d6 (Complete System)

[wiimanclassic]

I'm running a game in a week or 2 on another forum and the people playing haven't played D anything games before.......nor have I GMed. Any advice?


Also maybe updating the link on the first page with the mega upload one would help. Ended up with a slightly outdated version of it from this link http://www.mediafire.com/?ua66kyai9l31qal


How out dated is it?

[Adell]

Advice: http://www.wikihow.com/Be-a-Dungeon-Master

But seriously, just have a general idea of where you want players to go/what you wan them to do and see what they do with it. If you DM really strictly, then it'll suck.

[DualShadow]

Final Fantasy is made to be a game not a "simulation" like dnd, so be light hearted on your heroes, let them look cool, and also if they come up with a far fetch attack description, let them do it but dont be afraid to ask for a skill check if needed. Ex: A player of mine tried to jump from pillar to pillar in order to attack a flying creature without the -4 penalty, mading him do an impressive Athletic check DC 13, he suceeded, result:

The dark knight wall run 6ft on the first pillar before somersaulting to the pillar behind him, on a higher spot. From there he jump one final time, raising his longsword over his head and bringing it down on the flying mysterious humanoid.

[wiimanclassic]

Thanks for the help. Hm.......gonna take that FF4 quest idea and use it as a start to a much longer campaign involving the fiends.....the test group for this went......VERY poorly. Then again the 2 people in that group were new also and one was just kinda there.


Oh well. The guys I'm playing with next week,running 2 games. 1 starts ahead of the other to test my ideas the other one going a week after, seems like they may do a bit better.

[Zeta Kai]

Final Fantasy is made to be a game not a "simulation" like dnd, so be light hearted on your heroes, let them look cool, and also if they come up with a far fetch attack description, let them do it but dont be afraid to ask for a skill check if needed. Ex: A player of mine tried to jump from pillar to pillar in order to attack a flying creature without the -4 penalty, mading him do an impressive Athletic check DC 13, he suceeded, result:

The dark knight wall run 6ft on the first pillar before somersaulting to the pillar behind him, on a higher spot. From there he jump one final time, raising his longsword over his head and bringing it down on the flying mysterious humanoid.

I dunno what FF games you've been playing, but in mine, all my dudes line up in a row for every battle & just take turns wailing on the bad guys. :smalltongue: The excitement comes from seeing the attack animations & seeing what rare drops the enemies leave as loot.

[DualShadow]

I dunno what FF games you've been playing, but in mine, all my dudes line up in a row for every battle & just take turns wailing on the bad guys. :smalltongue: The excitement comes from seeing the attack animations & seeing what rare drops the enemies leave as loot.

I make my battle more cinematics-like. Its awesome.

[IcarusWings]

Dust, can Geomancers use intuitive magic (well, intuitive trance), and if so, would it use up their uses of geotrance for the session (I assume so)?

[Dust]

Dust, can Geomancers use intuitive magic (well, intuitive trance), and if so, would it use up their uses of geotrance for the session (I assume so)?
I would absolutely agree that Geomancers should be able to use Intuitive Magic. It used to actually be a job ability before I scrapped it for Stoneskin. As for the latter half, I'd call that up to the GM.

[wiimanclassic]

Well 1 guy finished his sheet..........gonna see how having the baazar have a "special weapon" works out. Its gets stronger as its wielder does so every few levels it gets another ability.


Sound good?

[Mecharious]

Why isn't this on the first page?

[Temotei]

Why isn't this on the first page?

Supposedly because nobody has anything to say right now.

There'll probably be more to critique and talk about once another update comes about.

[wiimanclassic]

Ok a level 1 monk (8+vit)*1+10 for HP. Does a level 2 monk use (8+vit)*2+10 or (16+vit)*2+10?

[Adell]

it's still (8+vit)*2+10. its just your vit and natural job class hp gain added on every level.

[wiimanclassic]

it's still (8+vit)*2+10. its just your vit and natural job class hp gain added on every level.

Thanks. Running an arena type RP along side the story. Seems to be working well and it helps get people used to the system.

[Adell]

Has anyone done/created anything crazy yet in the arena? I want to see how much EVA I can get onto a ninja without freelancing because that is too much confusion. :P
And also to see how many different buffs I can make throw have. and just make it uberpwn.

[Temotei]

Has anyone done/created anything crazy yet in the arena? I want to see how much EVA I can get onto a ninja without freelancing because that is too much confusion. :P
And also to see how many different buffs I can make throw have. and just make it uberpwn.

Dust said someone came up with a 45 EVA Ranger.


Mecharious - someone else PMed me a 45 EVA melee Ranger build, too. Is it bad that my initial response is 'Heh, that would be so cool to see in play?' as opposed to 'ZOMG must fix!'

[wiimanclassic]

Hm....if you got heavy and heavy arm mk 2 do they stack or does the second cancel out the other? If the stack then 2 Mk2s should......hello 18 strength Android.....it gets worse when the DM replaces it with Cyborg and you play a blue mage with mutation-construct. 1 free mk 2 and the other from your race....then a bunch of other grafts from taking the ability.

This is level 1. You will have to min max all others stats to 1 or in the case of dex 8 leaving 1 point if your str is 10. So 2 int I guess........my god can someone tell me how good this is if it its legal?



Wait....no extra grafts. Mutation-Beast for a tier 2 brawl weapon at the start.

[DualShadow]

I was wondering, when a caster cast his spell and roll his 2d6 for his damage or the healing and end up with a double 6, does that trigger a limit break?

Also, if a dragoon who get his critical range down to 10-12 and roll 10 or 11 does that trigger the limit break or does it really require a double 6?

[Dust]

Dust said someone came up with a 45 EVA Ranger.
Adell, the maximum EVA you could have as a pure ninja without Sunken State is 41. Max your DEX and INT and nothing else, have a Precision weapon that also has the Spell Effect: Vanish property. This build is so neat that it spontaneously caused Chaos to obtain a never-miss attack the first time someone proposed it. :smallcool:

With an Entertainer and Gambler friend, you could get this up to a ridiculous 56. This is one of the things that will be fixed in the next update of the book.

Hm....if you got heavy and heavy arm mk 2 do they stack or does the second cancel out the other? If the stack then 2 Mk2s should......hello 18 strength Android.....it gets worse when the DM replaces it with Cyborg and you play a blue mage with mutation-construct. 1 free mk 2 and the other from your race....then a bunch of other grafts from taking the ability.

This is level 1. You will have to min max all others stats to 1 or in the case of dex 8 leaving 1 point if your str is 10. So 2 int I guess........my god can someone tell me how good this is if it its legal?

Wait....no extra grafts. Mutation-Beast for a tier 2 brawl weapon at the start.
Starting as an Android with two Heavy Arms is entirely legal if you really wanted 14 STR. It allows you to push the cap higher at the cost of your other attributes, as you mentioned. Same thing with the better version of the same item; +8 STR at the cost of -8 DEX.
The downside, of course, is that enemies can damage both your arms, leaving you basically limbless in combat. While I kind of enjoy the idea of an android monk arguing with a GM that he should be able to use Improbable Weapons with his feet by kicking stuff at his enemies, it's a dangerous double-edged sword for min-maxers. Personally, I think you'd have to be crazy to submit a character to your GM with easily-destroyed robot arms. :smalltongue:

Having a Tier 2 weapon at first level is easy to do.

I was wondering, when a caster cast his spell and roll his 2d6 for his damage or the healing and end up with a double 6, does that trigger a limit break?

Also, if a dragoon who get his critical range down to 10-12 and roll 10 or 11 does that trigger the limit break or does it really require a double 6?
Spells don't cause limit breaks. We could have easily written the rules differently, but it was done to be consistent with the games.

Limit Breaks occur on critical hits when your health is low enough. So Dragoons, Reach-weapon users, and anyone else with a way to increase their critical 'threat range' will probably limit break more often. Offensive casters are less 'bursty' and more reliable.

There'll probably be more to critique and talk about once another update comes about.
I hope a set of balance/typo fixes and general system improvement won't generate more to critique! :smallbiggrin:

[Mecharious]

Update! No wai!

Anyway, I've been playing a game with my friends, and we're noticing that it's almost never viable to go for a high strength build. Jobs like Dark Knight, Paladin, and (melee) Fighter seem outclassed by jobs that only need to worry about Dex.

This is because someone like a thief can use their dex for accuracy, evasion, weapon damage, skills, and movement (if using a grid). A Dark Knight can use strength for damage and accuracy, but still needs to consider dex for their evasion. A fighter might as well use ranged weapons since then they can safely dump their strength, and focus on less stats.

The biggest issue with strength as a stat is that if you can have dex decide your damage, it is entirely useless. Earlier you mentioned it's okay because all classes will have some dump stat, but the problem is, every other stat has a use, even if it's not your main concern.

Dex: Weapon Damage*, Accuracy, Evasion, Movement, skills.
Vit: Hit points.
Int: Number of skill points, MP*, Skills.
Spr: Resist status effects, skills.
Str: Weapon Damage*, sometimes Acc.

(Asterisk means sometimes useful)

Strength also occasionally comes up for ability usage, and if you want to make disarm attempts (but not avoid them).

My friends and I decided to make it so weapons damage for ranged weapons and concealed weapons used half strength and dex. We also considered a shared ability that adds your strength rating to your effective dex score for calculating conc/ranged weapons, and a shared ability that added your dex rating to your effective str score for other weapons. (We justify the strength helping ranged guns because it would help prevent recoil... not the best reasoning, but we didn't want guns and bows to be two separate weapons).

[Temotei]

I hope a set of balance/typo fixes and general system improvement won't generate more to critique! :smallbiggrin:

That's technically not what I said, and not what I meant. :smalltongue:

I meant that once you got done with an update, we'd look through it, find more, and point it out. It's likely that you'll miss some ideas being thrown about.


...We justify the strength helping ranged guns because it would help prevent recoil...

As opposed to Barret's cannonball weapon? :smalltongue:

[wiimanclassic]

Starting as an Android with two Heavy Arms is entirely legal if you really wanted 14 STR. It allows you to push the cap higher at the cost of your other attributes, as you mentioned. Same thing with the better version of the same item; +8 STR at the cost of -8 DEX.
The downside, of course, is that enemies can damage both your arms, leaving you basically limbless in combat. While I kind of enjoy the idea of an android monk arguing with a GM that he should be able to use Improbable Weapons with his feet by kicking stuff at his enemies, it's a dangerous double-edged sword for min-maxers. Personally, I think you'd have to be crazy to submit a character to your GM with easily-destroyed robot arms. :smalltongue:

Having a Tier 2 weapon at first level is easy to do.


Well what about having the auto repair graft also....its for an arena thing where you just fight monsters. No way this would get into the story. The arena is for min maxers and munchins to play around with builds.

Hell when I leveld(twice) I upped my dex so I'm not so gimped for acc or eva.
Its the lower levels that suck with this build do to lack of acc.

[Mecharious]

As opposed to Barret's cannonball weapon? :smalltongue:

By ranged I meant they were part of the ranged category. I didn't mean to imply there are non-ranged guns... although... :smallsmile:

[Mecharious]

Hm, Dust, I don't know if this has been brought up before, but the Time Mage spell Meteorite says it's a single target spell, but damages all enemies.

[Unrest]

NOW, something that Should be looked at is Comet. I mean, it's not like I don't love the spell, and not like I'm not all for Total Interdimensional Massacre, but as a rank 3 spell Comet is said to be... 1d6 strikes at 7xINT... EACH? To all enemies?! This, madam, this is not kosher.


"Comet causes 1d6 meteors to damage foes; each strike inflicts (INT x 7) + 2d6 nonelemental damage to all enemies."

Edit: Oh, and the page before that, Gravity says it uses the... STR rating? Not that it's completely illogical, but is it correct?

[Mecharious]

*Looks at comet*

Yeaaaaaaaah, that can't be right. Tier 3 Black magic spells do less damage and only get one strike.

[Temotei]

Total Interdimensional Massacre

Heh. Tim. That's my name. :smallcool:

[Dust]

*Looks at comet*

Yeaaaaaaaah, that can't be right. Tier 3 Black magic spells do less damage and only get one strike.
Yeah, that's clearly an issue and a typo. Same with Meteorite.

The Gravity/Gravija spells using STR is not.

[Unrest]

Heh. Tim. That's my name. :smallcool:

Gary Gygax my witness, I were trying to arrange the words around so that the acronym would be TIMMY. He knows I tried.

[Creed]

Gary Gygax my witness, I were trying to arrange the words around so that the acronym would be TIMMY. He knows I tried.

*pulls out the holy symbol of Gygax (a d20 with 20's on every face)*
Greetings, Brother of the Faith!
Gygax blesses your acronymic attempts!

[Temotei]

Gary Gygax my witness, I were trying to arrange the words around so that the acronym would be TIMMY. He knows I tried.

Total Interdimensional Massacre Makes Yams. :smallcool:

[Kobold-Bard]

Total Interdimensional Massacre Melts Yetis. :smallcool:

Fixed that for you.

[Adell]

I was bored, so I tried min maxing and basically creating a munchkin.

L30 Human Time Mage
HP: 880
MP: 1650
ACC: 17
EVA: 25

STR: 5(1)
VIT: 24(20)
DEX: 5(1)
INT: 52(40)
SPR: 12(8)

Abilities
Epic: Cosmic Standstill
Innate: Time Magic
Mind over Matter
Telekinesis
Improved Arsenal x7

Equipment
T7 Arcane Extra 6 Int
Protect Cape Extra 2 Int
Marvel Shoes Extra 4 to All Stats

Spells
Meteo, Gravija, Flare Star, others not necessary

So basically:
1. cast Gravija: it lasts for 18 rounds, doing 4680+36d6 total over those rounds
2. spam Flare Star until running out of MP. this does 9600+36d6 total
3. turn meteorites into Improbable Weapons. because of Mind over Matter, use 18 Int rating to calculate tier of Improbable Weapon, which will most likely be tier 7
4. Add 7 tiers for Improved Arsenal so you have a tier 14 throwing thingie.
5. This does 728+2d6 damage every turn. (just keep pulling down meteorites)
6. After 20 rounds, this is about 26,488 damage.
7. If you were fighting a lot of mooks, switch to Meteo for even more fun.

So, please suggest ways to min-max even better.
Also, is adding tiers above 8 allowed? I assume it is but I dunno.
Is this even min-maxing? I dunno how strong L30 characters should be.
For me, abusing improbable weapons seems like a lot of fun. Any other Eureka combinations?


oh i just realized how to get 45 eva. start off with freelancer. switch to monk and take7 skills in focus to get +7 eva. then change to ninja and you'll have 9 (natural ninja eva)+7 focus eva. then you need two weapons. You get 2 T8 weapons, one with precision and pump INT to 75 and you add on Int rating of 25, plus half that again for 13 and total eva is 9+7+25+13=54. well, this build sorta requires at least T7 and without T8, it's kinda wimpy, but still. and getting focus seven times seems a little wasteful. there's probably a better way to get int/eva.

[Mecharious]

I think Time Mages might need a re-work :smalltongue:

Anyway, I don't think stats are supposed to get much higher than 30. It's possible for them to, yeah, but I think stacking stats instead of distributing them to multiple stats is a bit OP right now.

But that build requires a lot GM cooperation :smallsmile:

[Adell]

haha, no nerf please.

oh, is that with +Int stuff or just the base stat?
actually, if there's that rule for total stat, then I'm at a loss for getting 45 eva.

ehhh, except for the stats, I think most of it follows the rules.

ok, so if i just redistribute the 10 extra stat points onto vit, then i'll have about 1200 hp and 1300 mp.

oooh ok. i just read the stuff and getting the 3rd limit break takes away the stat limitations. although i would pretty much be nerfed until i get there. that still puts a 35 stat cap on everything. because once you get to L25 and get the limit break, there's only 5 more stat points to gain.

[Kobold-Bard]

The Ultimate Weapon is Tier 8. So no, there decidedly can't be higher tier weapons :smalltongue:

Tine Mages are fairly powerful, not least because their spells do more damage than their black equivalents.

[Unrest]

I don't think that's min-maxing. It's TO. If you wanted to use summoned meteors as weapons and make their tiers stack, any sane GM would agree to it only and only if he had the chance to hit you over the head with one.

No, I mean, it's all this common sense thing. The fun thing is, whenever I come to any new RPG, I leave all my assumptions of the way it's played behind. Now, after having spent quite some time on this forum reading the roleplaying section, I simply cannot look at or play D&D 3.5 without attempting to at least minmax. Here, because numbers seem to be in quite a demand, I'm slowly getting this, but still feel the atmosphere is much more relaxed due to FFs emphasis on the cinematic rather than the realistic. In WFRP, I'm willing to play a character that's not viable in combat terms, because I see that the game is not about this, and rolls become an obstacle. </rant>

[Adell]

Well, this isn't a higher tier weapon. Because it still starts at tier 7. It's just boosting its tier to an obscene number. Otherwise, the skill improved arsenal is completely useless. Actually, any skill that improves tiers would be useless. And Tier 14 can't be impossible because Meteo is Tierx25

As for the meteorite read:
Tier 7 Godlike (20) The side of a mountain or glacier, an airship, a small meteorite.

If you can get your Int rating that high, then it works.

Anyways, you guys aren't helping me min-max :P
Imma go through the handbook and see what other things can synergize with improved arsenal. and see what else can get uberpwn.

[wiimanclassic]

Hm........guys my GMPC(a gambler) is gonna die. Need to think of how. Needs to be a way to introduce the next party leader whos gonna also spark a side quest later. They shouldn't have a problem with this guy leading them now while I just DM but how I die is meant to have an effect. I was thinking showing how much I have cheated fate through alot of things outside of combat going badly, muggers, cashiers over charging on accident, bricks falling on my head, that kind of stuff. Maybe have the air ship crash in the sea and later they go and try and get it.


Sound good?

[Creed]

Hm........guys my GMPC(a gambler) is gonna die. Need to think of how. Needs to be a way to introduce the next party leader whos gonna also spark a side quest later. They shouldn't have a problem with this guy leading them now while I just DM but how I die is meant to have an effect. I was thinking showing how much I have cheated fate through alot of things outside of combat going badly, muggers, cashiers over charging on accident, bricks falling on my head, that kind of stuff. Maybe have the air ship crash in the sea and later they go and try and get it.


Sound good?

See Matt from Deathnote's death. Epic, and should give you an idea.:smallsmile:

[Kobold-Bard]

I'm curious about people's thoughts on the Fighter class.

1. I think it should be renamed Warrior, because Fighter has too many unfortunate D&D connotations.
2. In 3 game recruitments, I never saw one being built. It's not a melee vs. magic thing because stuff like the Samurai & Dragoon were coming up all the time. I looked over it this morning and it just seems a bit underwhelming (to the point where I made the NPC warrior a Paladin instead).

Anyone else think like this, or is it just me letting the D&D Fighter sully my view of it?

[IcarusWings]

I think the problem is, in a way, similar to DnD's Fighter problems, is that they still don't seem to have as many options as the others. Paladin's have spells and various other abilities, Dragoons have Jump and various tactical abilities, Samurai have draw out etc.

Fighter has attack, some ways to attack multiple enemies, and various passive effects that only take place under certain conditions (beserker, wild swing etc.)

[Mecharious]

Fighters can be scary with an auto-poison weapon and trauma (I don't think berserk activates trauma since berserk prevents you from using your abilities, and Trauma is technically an instant ability instead of a passive)

[wiimanclassic]

Hm maybe we could make a custom setting. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/storygen.php
We can use something from that as a basis.

[Adell]

Unless the fighter is in a bad situation, there isn't really that much he can do.
Wild Swing requires a strong monster/boss
Unstoppable requires being outnumbered
Trauma requires a bad status
Skin of Iron requires a critical hit/limit break

The other abilities:
Provoke isn't really necessary until you get to stronger monsters and bosses
Warcry is nice but it's only usable once per session, probably for a boss
Cleave is nice
Armor Mastery isn't useful if you happen to be wearing medium armor. Also probably only useful later/for bosses
First Strike is useful

So the Fighter is great for bosses and super hard encounters. I think it's abilities really shine here. But for normal day-to-day combat, it's standard thing would be to attack or use cleave.

I think the name should be changed to Warrior as well because the warrior's role is to use abilities to affect status/equipment.

Also, I think a Fighter should have a variety of different attacks. Doublehand would be cool. So, more in keeping with the FFTA fighter and less so with the warrior/knight of earlier FFs.
http://strategywiki.org/wiki/Final_Fantasy_Tactics_Advance/Jobs/Fighter

[Mecharious]

It might be why they changed the fighter's name to pugilist in FFTA2.

[Kobold-Bard]

@Dust: Can a Thief steal stuff with a ranged attack? That just seems weird.

[Unrest]

Mug makes you steal around 100 Gil x enemy's level if you've stripped them off items. In our PbP we're level 5.

So I assume we're facing around level 5 enemes.

And we started with 1500 Gil.

So yeah.

Edit: Oh, and, does magic crit? I can't remember where to look for it.

[Dust]

Time Mages are fairly powerful, not least because their spells do more damage than their black equivalents.
Which is surprisingly offset due to their almost exclusively non-elemental nature. Can't boost the damage with Enhancer, can't get double damage on elementally-weak enemies.

Can a Thief steal stuff with a ranged attack? That just seems weird.
Robin Hood could do it.

Mug makes you steal around 100 Gil x enemy's level if you've stripped them off items. In our PbP we're level 5.

So I assume we're facing around level 5 enemes.

And we started with 1500 Gil.

So yeah.
Critical hits are pretty awesome.

Edit: Oh, and, does magic crit? I can't remember where to look for it.
No.

Fighters can be scary with an auto-poison weapon and trauma (I don't think berserk activates trauma since berserk prevents you from using your abilities, and Trauma is technically an instant ability instead of a passive)
Trauma needs to be a Passive and not an Instant ability, another copy-pasta error leading to game confusion there. It's kind of like how some of the magic 'innate' abilities are standard actions and some are passive; just bad proofreading on my part.

I'm open to suggestions about the Fighter (but I think the name will remain). Instead of versatile as intended, they ended up being rather lackluster and situational.

[Kobold-Bard]

Which is surprisingly offset due to their almost exclusively non-elemental nature. Can't boost the damage with Enhancer, can't get double damage on elementally-weak enemies.

If you say so. Just seemed weird that they did an extra stat multiplier of damage for 1 less MP.


Robin Hood could do it.

...

Works for me, was just checking.

[Adell]

Does anyone want to do a PbP arena to mess around(read: munchkin) and see how certain stuff works out?

I want to see if my time mage is feasible to level up.

[Creed]

Yea, sure.
I wouldn't mind throwing some characters in for level 30 epic combat. Would let me play around with some stuff.
Also, how much HP would your TM have?

edity: oh, 880.
Yeah, I has a plan.

[Adell]

We should do a story. Like we all start out as noobs in a coliseum at level 1 and we just keep fighting until we gain freedom (L25 limit break) and attack the master of the coliseum. just so it's fun to read as well.
We would go up one by one, and also in groups to fight other groups/large creatures (aka bosses).

[Creed]

Or a Mortal Kombat approach:
A hyper-intelligent pan-demensional being, known as M.O.U.S.E. (REFERENCES!), uses it's supernatural powers to abduct monsters and warriors from across the planes of existance, forcing them to fight for survival, so that M.O.U.S.E.'s computer programs may analyze their skills and create the Ultimate Warrior from their corresponding strengths and weaknesses.
The Arena is monitered by M.O.U.S.E.'s lacky, the Gamemaster (our referee and resident DM). The Gamemaster controls aspects of the Kombatants daily lives. He regulates food, the arenas, and the composition of the holding cells.
M.O.U.S.E. only monitors the proceedings, building a being that it can use to defeat chaos in the multi-verse.

[Rob Roy]

I'm just reading through the pdf and I only have one major complaint. The table of contents gives the wrong pages for each section. For example in the table of contents it says that The World starts at pg 129, when it actually starts at pg 134. I apologize if this has been brought up before.
Nevermind, it's just the actual page number and when you started counting pages are different.

[Temotei]

I'm just reading through the pdf and I only have one major complaint. The table of contents gives the wrong pages for each section. For example in the table of contents it says that The World starts at pg 129, when it actually starts at pg 134. I apologize if this has been brought up before.

That's because it's a .pdf file. If it was a book, the page numbers in the table of contents would be right. The cover and pages before the table don't count.

Also, I'm up for an arena.

[IcarusWings]

I'd be up for an arena, I'm not too great a optimizing, but I'd love the chance to throw round some higher level builds. Although, if an arena-type game is run, could we run multiple characters in it. They wouldn't help each other out, but I wanna test loads of characters out.

[Adell]

Rawr, your story is waaaaaayyy too complicated. but if you DM it then go for it. i don't know anything about mortal kombat.

nobody better do a time mage. :smalltongue:

[Creed]

Rawr, your story is waaaaaayyy too complicated. but if you DM it then go for it. i don't know anything about mortal kombat.

nobody better do a time mage. :smalltongue:

Well I was thinking each "match" one of us could control the Gamemaster, a thrid party bystander, to watch over the game.

[Adell]

oh ok. yeah, that makes sense.
what should the difficulty be at? a monster our level+3?

[Creed]

oh ok. yeah, that makes sense.
what should the difficulty be at? a monster our level+3?

I was figuring that there would be different "tiers" like in Wrestling and MMA and UFC and stuff.
Lightweight- Noob (1-5)
Middleweight- Explorer (6-10)
Heavyweight- Adventurer (11-15)
Super Heavy Weight- Champion (16-20)
Megaweight- Hero (21-25)
Ultraweight- Demigod (26-29)
Titanweight- Deity (30+)

[Adell]

ok, so at least for my dm-ing, once your level hits the lowest level of a tier, then you're in that tier.

and you'll face a random monster whose level is randomly chosen.

you should create the topic cause im still a little foggy on the plot. i want to play naow :P

[Creed]

ok, so at least for my dm-ing, once your level hits the lowest level of a tier, then you're in that tier.

and you'll face a random monster whose level is randomly chosen.

you should create the topic cause im still a little foggy on the plot. i want to play naow :P

Tomorrow... remind me tomorrow... now Creed need sleeeeeeep.
*YAWN*

[Adell]

meh, i'm too bored to wait. I stole Creed's thunder. It's mine bwahahaha :belkar:

here's the IC and OOC topics.

IC: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=179644
OoC: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=179648

you don't need to pm the character sheets. just post in OoC and if there's anything strange, we can just discuss it there.

[Creed]

My thunder.... it's... gone!

[Mecharious]

Adell is an impressive thief. Stealing thunder has a pretty high DC.

[Adell]

It's true, what can I say? I have incredible dice.

[Mecharious]

So, Dust, what exactly is going to be in the update besides general fixes?

Also, I'm wondering what you think of my Str/Dex analysis on post 270. I know you said earlier that it's okay to have a dump stat, but in a game I'm playing with some friends I'm seeing a serious difference in the capabilities of a strength based character vs a dex based character.

[Temotei]

So, Dust, what exactly is going to be in the update besides general fixes?

She said some homebrew is going in. :smallcool:

[wiimanclassic]

Hehe. Decided to steal the level 30 arena idea. As soon as enough people get on it I plan to have them fight chaos.......so far we have a gambler. A gambler whos an example of a level 30.


Hm.......question. Does a dark knight who becomes a paladin lose the huge weapon ability?

[Dust]

...I'm wondering what you think of my Str/Dex analysis on post 270.
I share the belief that, as it stands right now, strength-based heroes are at a distinct disadvantage. I tried to provide other non-damage reasons why STR would be on par with DEX, such as lifting and breaking and throwing and whatnot, and also how some weapons had properties (Ranged and Huge, for example) that were simply BETTER than others but unusable by most DEX-based classes, but obviously this wasn't enough.

The reason that the book was released with this very obvious problem is pretty simple - I don't really know how to fix it.

For both flavor and canon reasons, DEX should be every bit as valuable as STR when it comes to raw numerical firepower in combat. When it comes to actual game design, though....well, let's just say I'm still browsing through lots of 3.5 homebrew for bouncers, bruisers, and other professional toughguys, looking for inspiration. :smalltongue:

Hm.......question. Does a dark knight who becomes a paladin lose the huge weapon ability?
Fallen paladins and redeemed dark knights don't change their weapon or armor types; just their HP, MP, spells, abilities, and possibly their limit breaks if the GM feels this is appropriate. You don't suddenly forget how to throw a good right hook just because you're fighting for truth and justice and the Ivalician way! Likewise, falling to the dark side doesn't also force a sudden change of dress code. (Okay, well it DOES, but we're talking pastels, not plate.)

[Mecharious]

Also, I think Time Mages really need a re-work. Some of their spells are just ridiculous, and Mind over Matter and Telekinesis seem exceptionally powerful together.

[Adell]

Lol, just because I found a good combination doesn't mean time mages should be nerfed.

And without those kind of combinations, time mages basically cast haste and slow and stop and stuff. Thus making them entirely pointless.

I think mind over matter and telekinesis are meant to be taken together.

Which spells should be nerfed anyways? Their L5 spells?

Otherwise, black mages should be nerfed too.

And blue mages who pump VIT and blood price should be nerfed too.

And fighters who take trauma and put auto-poison on their weapons.

And freelancers with job change.

[Kobold-Bard]

Lol, just because I found a good combination doesn't mean time mages should be nerfed.

And without those kind of combinations, time mages basically cast haste and slow and stop and stuff. Thus making them entirely pointless.

I think mind over matter and telekinesis are meant to be taken together.

Which spells should be nerfed anyways? Their L5 spells?

I disagree, I think you'd be mad to take Telekinesis without MOM.

[Adell]

That's what I said.

[Kobold-Bard]

That's what I said.

So you did. The hell did I miss that?

I apologise for my fail.

[Mecharious]

Lol, just because I found a good combination doesn't mean time mages should be nerfed.

This has absolutely nothing to do with what you posted.


And without those kind of combinations, time mages basically cast haste and slow and stop and stuff. Thus making them entirely pointless.

They have better damage potential than black mages with their spells. Haste is incredible anyway. The combinations basically give them incredible physical combat to boot.


I think mind over matter and telekinesis are meant to be taken together.

Of course they are. That doesn't make it any less powerful.


Which spells should be nerfed anyways? Their L5 spells?

Among others. Look at comet and compare it to similar level black magic. Same with meteor and Flare Star.


Otherwise, black mages should be nerfed too.

Black magic isn't as powerful as time magic right now. Black mages can super-specialize in one element for massive damage, but then they become useless against enemies with immunities (there are ways around this, but typically bosses are immune). Time mages never risk immunities, and it seems black mages need to be exceptionally optimized to compete with them. If black mages are being made under the assumption that they should be optimized to compete with any time mage, then I think that is a design flaw.


And blue mages who pump VIT and blood price should be nerfed too.

Blood price is incredibly incredibly situational since it only works against one group of enemies.


And fighters who take trauma and put auto-poison on their weapons.

Another problem, but not really related to time mages. This can easily be fixed by making it so trauma can only be taken once.


And freelancers with job change.

Only late game after they suffered at the begining. I think that's fair enough.

Also, I said they need a re-work, not a complete nerf. I mean look at their quasar spell compared to Meteo. Costs 60% of the mp and does 40% of the damage (comparatively, scourge costs around 40% of the cost of scathe and does half the damage.) Haste is also probably also the best positive status effect. Spells like quarter are also near-useless.

Edit: On an unrelated note, I think a blade's piercing strike should be 1/combat. 1/session doesn't seem to be on the same level as other weapon properties.

[Creed]

It is in my experience that people who enjoy playing the game play as what are referred to by my close friends as "LEC" or, Low Expectation Classes, such as bards.
That's what I play. Alot.
Thus, optimizers and folks who enjoy pwning for no reason would play a Time Mage.
People who want to take apart the game piece by piece for a really interesting character would play a Thief specked for combat.
See what I'm saying?

[Mecharious]

Except an unoptimized time mage is even more superior to an unoptimized black mage since the TM wouldn't have to worry about taking advantage of elemental types.

[Adell]

Well, Comet is probably weaker than the L3 -aga spells because of weaknesses. Not playing weaknesses with a blak mage seems stupid when black mages are supposed to have some intelligence.

And black mages do get Ultima. so yeah.

I was trying to play an interesting character. I wanted to make a swordmage, but that turned into a black mage using Into the Fray and basically the same as the time mage.

To make a thief uberpwn, just take feint and then assassin's kiss ten times.
Feint to lower EVA to zero and then add on 10 to the damage tier of whatever weapon you're using.

And I don't see how 45 eva is a good reward for freelancers. Because then they essentially can't get hit. I bet there are a lot of overpowered combinations that can be generated with a freelancer.

Besides, in late game, almost every character is overpowered.

[Mecharious]

Well, Comet is probably weaker than the L3 -aga spells because of weaknesses. Not playing weaknesses with a blak mage seems stupid when black mages are supposed to have some intelligence.

You won't always have the spell that an enemy is weak against. And if you do, it requires you to use up your precious spell slots to have a variety of elemental types. Comet does more damage, hits all targets, AND hits 1d6 times. There is no way a T3 black magic spell is going to do more damage than that, even with weaknesses in play.


And black mages do get Ultima. so yeah.

Which kills your party unless you spend a whopping 3 destiny points


I was trying to play an interesting character. I wanted to make a swordmage, but that turned into a black mage using Into the Fray and basically the same as the time mage.

Mind over Matter is just plain better than Into the Fray.


To make a thief uberpwn, just take feint and then assassin's kiss ten times.
Feint to lower EVA to zero and then add on 10 to the damage tier of whatever weapon you're using.

Again, you're going off-topic. First of all, I'm not talking about specific builds, I'm talking about time mages as a whole, which aren't even that similar to thieves. Second of all, the wording suggests that Feint and Assassin's kiss might not even work with eachother (being denied your EVA score vs having an effective score of 0). Third, this can only be done a limited number of times per session (less if the thief misses their feint attempt). Fourth, this goes with what I was saying how passive abilites like that shouldn't stack.


And I don't see how 45 eva is a good reward for freelancers. Because then they essentially can't get hit. I bet there are a lot of overpowered combinations that can be generated with a freelancer.

Many enemies have auto-hit abilities, and evasion doesn't help against spells or limit breaks. Again, we're going a bit off topic here.

[Adell]

I thought this entire discussion was balancing the classes.
And I'm also replying to Creed on combat thieves.

I think the easiest way to balance a lot of the classes is to make none of the skills be able to be taken multiple times.

But I think that might make improbable weapons completely useless.

[wiimanclassic]

I thought this entire discussion was balancing the classes.
And I'm also replying to Creed on combat thieves.

I think the easiest way to balance a lot of the classes is to make none of the skills be able to be taken multiple times.

But I think that might make improbable weapons completely useless.

What about blue mages mutation?

[Dust]

Enormous post incoming!

You might notice my tone being a little different in this post than the others; I'm not trying to be confrontational, it's just that this is the very first time I've read a suggestion/argument and didn't either agree or disagree with it outright. A lot of this thread has been 'yup, definitely needs a fix, good catch' - these are some of the very first issues that I'm not entirely certain I understand.



On an unrelated note, I think a blade's piercing strike should be 1/combat. 1/session doesn't seem to be on the same level as other weapon properties.
Here's an easy starting point. I agree.

I think the easiest way to balance a lot of the classes is to make none of the skills be able to be taken multiple times.
It's certainly something I need to consider. It seems like the common mindset is to stack the same ability over and over in order to increase your effective weapon tier and nothing else, and then simply attack every round until things fall over. Whether effective or not, this makes for an un-fun build to actually play over the course of many months and needs to be remedied in some fashion.


They have better damage potential than black mages with their spells. Haste is incredible anyway. The combinations basically give them incredible physical combat to boot.

Mind over Matter is just plain better than Into the Fray.
So let's talk about Time Mages and Black Mages.
During the design process, we sat down and chatted about how these two different Jobs should function. You have to admit that they're awkwardly similar; in the end, I proposed that they should both be offensive casters with different styles. Black Mages have 'debuffing' capabilities as their sort of secondary role, dropping status effects and whatnot. They deal the most damage when they can exploit their enemies' elemental weaknesses. Time Mages have 'buffing' as their secondary function - as mentioned, Haste is ridiculous good for standard-action-reliant characters - and are almost exclusively nonelemental damage. Nothing is resistant to it, but nothing is weak to it either.
So in short, we wanted them to be on par; sometimes Black Mages would be the ideal caster, sometimes Time. I don't like to think of Black Mages having to 'optimize to compete,' but I certainly agree that they need to have forethought and planning where a Time Mage can simply chuck spells out and be effective.

Comet, as I mentioned way back a few pages ago, should definitely NOT be an (INT x 7) spell. I mean, you can compare that to Shockwave Pulsar and realize something is seriously wrong here. If I recall correctly, the intent was for it to be an (INT x 5). I suspect I'll also be kicking it down to 1d4 meteorites in the next update instead of 1d6. (Or something; I don't want to start introducing other polygonal dice. Blugh! :smallcool:) Some quick math, then, to support that numerical change.

A Time Mage and a Black Mage find themselves in combat with several enemies; let's say 4. They're both level 14, so the Black Mage has two different rank 3 spells where the Time Mage only has Comet. They both have exactly 25 INT, and let's say, to prevent interruptions and whatnot, they each have Auto-Haste on their equipment. The enemies have 30 magic armor.
Time Mage casts Comet and rolls exactly average, resulting in about 204 points of damage to all enemies. The Black Mage uses Thundaga, dealing 166 damage to each. The damage difference is not enormous, but certainly superior. And without elemental weaknesses and damage-increasing abilities coming into play, nonelemental spells will always beat elemental spells for pure raw damage. On a perfect roll and the maximum of 4 meteorites, the Time Mage does a whopping 408 points of damage. With an elemental weakness, the Black Mage deals 425. A Black Mage who has bonus damage from Elemental Enhancer or abilities will just keep widening the gap.

I have to confess, I'm not certain I see the issues as they stand with Telekinesis/Mind over Matter. You'll have to spell it out for me.

Look at....meteor and Flare Star.
This is another example you'll have to explain to me. I don't see the significance. One is an x30 spell to a single enemy, but with varying elemental types. One is x25 to all enemies. I don't know if I'd be able to say one has a clear advantage over the other.

Also, I said they need a re-work, not a complete nerf. I mean look at their quasar spell compared to Meteo. Costs 60% of the mp and does 40% of the damage (comparatively, scourge costs around 40% of the cost of scathe and does half the damage.)
I'm not sure I understand the relevancy of this statement.

[Creed]

THE GREAT DUST HAS SPOKEN!
OBEY WITH GREATEST HASTE!:smalltongue:

[Mecharious]

It's certainly something I need to consider. It seems like the common mindset is to stack the same ability over and over in order to increase your effective weapon tier and nothing else, and then simply attack every round until things fall over. Whether effective or not, this makes for an un-fun build to actually play over the course of many months and needs to be remedied in some fashion.

Only applying to certain abilities of course. I think some abilities can be taken multiple times if it isn't stacking, but allowing the ability to be applied more often (mutate being an okay example).


So in short, we wanted them to be on par; sometimes Black Mages would be the ideal caster, sometimes Time. I don't like to think of Black Mages having to 'optimize to compete,' but I certainly agree that they need to have forethought and planning where a Time Mage can simply chuck spells out and be effective.

Well, it's also the fact that a lot of black mages will feel they need to take multiple damaging spells a level, where the only difference is the elemental type they do. Because of this, Black Mages have less spell variety and require extra damaging spells in order to overcome immunities.


Comet, as I mentioned way back a few pages ago, should definitely NOT be an (INT x 7) spell. I mean, you can compare that to Shockwave Pulsar and realize something is seriously wrong here. If I recall correctly, the intent was for it to be an (INT x 5). I suspect I'll also be kicking it down to 1d4 meteorites in the next update instead of 1d6. Some quick math, then, to support that numerical change.

Okay, that makes a lot more sense.


I have to confess, I'm not certain I see the issues as they stand with Telekinesis/Mind over Matter. You'll have to spell it out for me.

I'm... not really sure with Telekinesis. I think I read the description wrong. Mind over Matter, however, makes it so that the Time Mage's accuracy, evasion, spell damage, weapon damage, and accuracy are all determined by the same stat. Personally, I'm not a fan of stat-stacking, and this just encourages it more.


This is another example you'll have to explain to me. I don't see the significance. One is an x30 spell to a single enemy, but with varying elemental types. One is x25 to all enemies. I don't know if I'd be able to say one has a clear advantage over the other.

That's the problem... Flare Star just seems so outclassed by Meteo. Costs more mp, will probably end up doing less damage (Flare Star will apply triple magic resistance, and I get the feeling the elemental damage will end up being more of a hinderance than a help), and it's reflectable, and only hits one target.

Now look at Meteo compared to the black mage's 5th level Scathe. Scathe does 16xINT shadow damage (the only type that can't be improved by a BM's ability - and is more difficult to enhance than the regular elements) while Meteo does a whopping 25xINT damage. If that's not enough, Meteo even costs less MP.


I'm not sure I understand the relevancy of this statement.

Quasar is just a really crappy spell that could be improved. For over half the cost of meteo, it does pitiful damage (it will end up being even *less* than 40% damage after applying MARM). It seems like Time Mages get a lot of "WTF MUST HAVE" spells in addition to spells that seem downright horrible.

I don't know, time mages just seem like... they were put in last minute or something. Errors in the spell descriptions (Comet, Meteorite) and not having a legendary accessory doesn't help. I mean, I know they were in since the beta, but they just seem to have the most problems right now.


THE GREAT DUST HAS SPOKEN!
OBEY WITH GREATEST HASTE!:smalltongue:

As awesome as Dust is, I'm still going to do all I can to point out what I think are flaws in the system in order to improve it.

[IcarusWings]

Just for people's general information, the pbp game I am running for this system has had one player drop out due to RL issues, and one player just not post at all since it started. Meaning that, if anyone still wants to join in a game, we have two free places. If you're interested, post a character sheet in the OOC thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=175848) and we'll work you in as soon as possible.

[wiimanclassic]

Maybe 1d3 for comet. That way you can stick to a d6. Also can the stacked deck ability be used for the coin flip? Cause we use a d2(forum RP) and well it doesn't say you CAN'T do it if you use dice.

[Mecharious]

I get the feeling that using a coin was intentionally put there to prevent dice-rerolling abilities from affecting it.

[Temotei]

Excalibur is listed as a "Tier 8 Sword."

[wiimanclassic]

I get the feeling that using a coin was intentionally put there to prevent dice-rerolling abilities from affecting it.

the forum lacks coin flipping so we use dice. Abuse is cool.

[AshDesert]

Dust, thank you for putting in the time and effort required to put together this RPG system. I've already gotten one of my friends who loves FF but was reluctant about tabletop RPGs hooked on it. I love the section that gives advice on how to adapt the core rules to the worlds for different games. I also like the encouragement of descriptive combat. I've always found the "I full attack. I full attack. I full attack." combat that happens in D&D often to be pretty boring. So far, the balance issues seem extremely small in comparison to the imbalance that exists in some other systems *cough*3.5*cough*. You have created a very fun to play, easy to use and learn system that gives a great Final Fantasy feel, but that I'm definitely going to use for homebrew settings.

[Mecharious]

the forum lacks coin flipping so we use dice. Abuse is cool.

No, you're using a die to simulate a coin. If you're going to get all technical, you shouldn't be able to re-roll virtual dice anyway.

[wiimanclassic]

No, you're using a die to simulate a coin. If you're going to get all technical, you shouldn't be able to re-roll virtual dice anyway.

<.< I almost decided to make a random weapon generation table. Should I try?

Did it. You roll 1d6. For near the start just flip a coin. If your a bit farther just roll and have 1 and 2 be 1, 3 and 4 be 2, ect, ect. That is the tier. Then the gm picks 12 random abilities for the tier of it. The guy then rolls 2 d6. A result of 1 on the first one gives you a result of 1.

Get it?

[UserShadow7989]

Found a typo in the limit breaks section.


Random Target (1 or 3 Point Refund) The attack is chaotic in nature and cannot be completely controlled. For the 1 point refund, the technique targets a random enemy (or ally, if the limit break is beneficial). For the 5-point refund the target is completely random, and may be either an enemy or a friend. If combined with Area Effect, the limit break targets a random Group.

On a previous subject, have you decided what to do about the Zombie/Revive/Area Effect combo I brought up? What did you think of my suggestion to change Zombie to a level 2 status, increase revive's cost, and reduce the cost of Death Attack? [Link here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9727270&postcount=120 ]

[CociCookie]

I've got a quick question about the Cheat Fate ability that Gamblers have. Going off it's description, I gather it can be used multiple times in succession, as long as the player has good luck/available Destiny.

I've also got a (Probably silly) question about limit breaks. As long as it's multiple characters using them, then multiple ones can be used in the same round, correct?

If so, I think I've found a way to overkill Chaos in a Single Round. Now I'm sure theres other ways, but mine takes a Monk with High STR and DEX, along with 7 Improved Arsenal abilities, a Tier 8 Brawl Weapon that has Piercing, Break Damage Limit and Holy attributes, and to top it off, a 3rd rank Limit Break that has Attack(Phys) and Multi-Attackx4.
They also need to be in a party that has a member with a limit break that has 28 points spent on Stylish, and maybe a Gambler with a bunch of luck/Destiny points to back up their attack rolls.

The strategy would be to have the Stylish limit break go off first, then followed up by the Monk's limit break, then if required the Gambler could Cheat Fate to make the attacks hit (Up to the point where he runs out of Destiny), which would result in a total of (If I've done all the calculations correctly):
5 (Attacks) x 2 (Weakness: Holy) x ( STRx2(No Armour Dual Wield bonus) x 21 (Tier 8 + 13) + 2d6)
so totalled up it would hit for 10x(STRx42+2d6) damage, which calculated off a str of 27 (The final result of my piddly HP focused monk) would hit at least 11k damage

Now that I think about it though, I guess this would follow the note that it would require perfect planning from the party to execute, as getting everyone to survive long enough and have the necessary things to do it would be difficult as hell, especially 'cause the GM's have the say in what effects would be on Legendary weapons.

I think I need to go do something else now, I've been too focused on this system for the past few days, though i have to admit it has been fun trying to see how to kill Chaos before he can pull off his limit break.

But before I go, one question i forgot. I guess VIT boosting equipment still counts towards a character's HP limit? This may be a silly question, but it doesn't say in this edition if it does or doesn't.

[Temotei]

Found a typo in the limit breaks section.

Pretty sure the ruling is that the big numbers are always right.

[Dust]

Dust, thank you for putting in the time and effort required to put together this RPG system.
WELLLLL thanks. That means a lot to me.

...have you decided what to do about the Zombie/Revive/Area Effect combo I brought up? What did you think of my suggestion to change Zombie to a level 2 status, increase revive's cost, and reduce the cost of Death Attack? [Link here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9727270&postcount=120 ]
It's certainly something that needs to be changed, but I admit I haven't, er, gotten around to it yet. I suspect your solution is probably the best one.

I've also got a (Probably silly) question about limit breaks. As long as it's multiple characters using them, then multiple ones can be used in the same round, correct?
Correct.


If so, I think I've found a way to overkill Chaos in a Single Round.
That's pretty awesome and I gotta say, I'm impressed by the thought exercise. The only real flaw is that a Gambler wouldn't be able to support too much since you can only use Cheat Fate once per session - as with all Epic Abilities, mentioned on the first page of the job descriptions. An Entertainer would be wiser. :smallwink:
I honestly hadn't really sat down and looked at Monks with Martial Arts/Arsenal - that's going to have to be another thing that needs to get tweaked! But I'm pretty sure you win the award for the first theoretical Chaos kill - and bonus points for style, since it involves a Monk swinging a magically-blessed fifty-story building around. :smallbiggrin:

But before I go, one question i forgot. I guess VIT boosting equipment still counts towards a character's HP limit? This may be a silly question, but it doesn't say in this edition if it does or doesn't.
It does. Recalculate your health whenever your VIT changes. VIT from armor is a temporary boost then, at best.

[UserShadow7989]

I've got a question about the Weapon of Choice Entertainer Job Ability. What's the max range on the damage? Do I have to be in striking distance of the enemy to damage it, or can I be at a Medium distance?

[DualShadow]

Can I have some explanation about Power Cord Entertainer ability, I just dont understand it.

[wiimanclassic]

So uh on another forum I'm working on a home brew setting for this. Things are moving slowly and it will most likely stink.



Anyone want updates on how it goes?

[Vauron]

Can I have some explanation about Power Cord Entertainer ability, I just dont understand it.

I'll try to explain it to you.

First, Power Cord is done as a slow action, which basicly means you start it one turn, and it happens at the start of your next turn if you are not interrupted.

Second, you roll to attack. If you succeed, than it is like you hit all of the enemies with nonelemental M. ARM. damage. The amount of damage is essentially the same as your normal attack, so for a tier 2 weapon it'd be (2 x relevant statistic) + 2d6. After that, the enemies are thrown back to a medium distance, and they are seperated from their weapons.

Finally, each of the enemies has both an ARM score and a M.ARM score of 0 until their next turn, which should cause a nice increase in damage for the rest of your team.

Is there anything particularly confusing about that?

[Creed]

Anyone seen Kobold Bard lately? He kinda ditched the game he was DMing.

:smallannoyed:

[Kobold-Bard]

Anyone seen Kobold Bard lately? He kinda ditched the game he was DMing.

:smallannoyed:

All my details for the game are on my laptop which is a three hour train journey away. Sorry for not posting anything but I'm not having the best time at the moment irl and couldn't motivate myself (worlds longest breakup & mega family arguments). If you still want to play when I get back then I'll be pleased but if not I understand why.

In future if you could PM this stuff I'd appreciate it.

[DualShadow]

I'll try to explain it to you.

First, Power Cord is done as a slow action, which basicly means you start it one turn, and it happens at the start of your next turn if you are not interrupted.

Second, you roll to attack. If you succeed, than it is like you hit all of the enemies with nonelemental M. ARM. damage. The amount of damage is essentially the same as your normal attack, so for a tier 2 weapon it'd be (2 x relevant statistic) + 2d6. After that, the enemies are thrown back to a medium distance, and they are seperated from their weapons.

Finally, each of the enemies has both an ARM score and a M.ARM score of 0 until their next turn, which should cause a nice increase in damage for the rest of your team.

Is there anything particularly confusing about that?

Thx, all make sense now.

[Dust]

So uh on another forum I'm working on a home brew setting for this. Things are moving slowly and it will most likely stink.
Anyone want updates on how it goes?
Absolutely!

Also; Good summary, Vauron.

[Unrest]

Tell me, Dust, what program did you use to create the .pdf for this game?

[wiimanclassic]

Ok the plot of an FF4 game is going slowly. Haven't even gotten to the first boss.


On the other hand the world building project is going ok.



Maybe we should make a sig addon for this to help advertise it.

[Temotei]

Maybe we should make a sig addon for this to help advertise it.

I highly recommend that. Any familiar with Phoenix Magazine will know that I resized the Phoenix logo Djinn_In_Tonic made to go into signatures. That garnered a lot of interest, along with colored text like flames.

Unfortunately, Phoenix had some legal trouble. It's unlikely to rise above those, in case anyone was wondering in here. I doubt you'll have the same problem, though.

[Unrest]

Unfortunately, Phoenix had some legal trouble. It's unlikely to rise above those, in case anyone was wondering in here. I doubt you'll have the same problem, though.

Yeah, were kinda wondering about that. Frankly, I'd gravitate towards thinking you actually backed out too quickly of the whole thing. I know the wizards are a devious power to begin fiddling with, but I guess the most you'd get if you actually did start to would be a cease and desist. If you got anything and any attention, that is. And yet to circumvent this possibility, there has always been the - admittedly less appealing - option to make it in a threaded form here. <end offtopic, PM with bashing & lashing>

[Dust]

Tell me, Dust, what program did you use to create the .pdf for this game?
Acrobat 9 Pro Extended. I didn't experiment at all, though. It was just a simple conversion from a windows word doc.

[wiimanclassic]

Maybe we should do some work for getting stats for heartless from KH.........I'm just saying because it will help one of the 2 games of this I run.

[Unrest]

Acrobat 9 Pro Extended. I didn't experiment at all, though. It was just a simple conversion from a windows word doc.

Cool, were just wondering :smallsmile:


Maybe we should do some work for getting stats for heartless from KH.........I'm just saying because it will help one of the 2 games of this I run.

Why not simply do it yourself? :smallconfused: It's your stuff, and I guess someone might be grateful if afterwards you post it in the homebrew thread. (On another note, it was discussed earlier that e.g. KH is "non-core" for the system, so I guess it's not 'bookable', but no one wants to stop your brewin!)

[IcarusWings]

Maybe we should do some work for getting stats for heartless from KH.........I'm just saying because it will help one of the 2 games of this I run.

If you're running a Kingdom Hearts game then you might want to take a look at the unfinished Keymaster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9762263&postcount=11) job I did on the homebrew thread [/shamelessplug]

I might think about statting up some heartless too.

[Kobold-Bard]

If you're running a Kingdom Hearts game then you might want to take a look at the unfinished Keymaster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9762263&postcount=11) job I did on the homebrew thread [/shamelessplug]

I might think about statting up some heartless too.

No shameless plugging until it's done. Get to work ya lazy beggar[/slavedriver]

:smallwink:

I would be interested in seeing some KH stuff so feel free to post in the homebrew thread.

[wiimanclassic]

If you're running a Kingdom Hearts game then you might want to take a look at the unfinished Keymaster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9762263&postcount=11) job I did on the homebrew thread [/shamelessplug]

I might think about statting up some heartless too.

Already using it. I threw together an epic but plan to replace when you finish the class.

And I was asking incase anyone wanted to try and help. I already am working on stating them up but I'm gonna wait till I've got a few done before posting them.

[Dust]

I don't like Teamwork Attacks.

It should be this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJM-scpn0dE&feature=related#t=1m13s). Or this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WOBnze3-L4&feature=related). Or, in a pinch, even like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9PWjpngkTA#t=3m15s).

Instead, I jotted it down as trading accuracy for evasion, and nullifying enemy special abilities. I want to expand on this and make it far more important, and I think I'm going to do so by...

A) Making enemy abilities far more important, varied, and dangerous. Add new ones and revise old ones to keep things streamlined and justify why Teamworks are essential to victory.
B) Reworking short range combat a little bit to allow for 'swarm' fighting, introducing enemies that - like D&D swarms - are literally dozens or even hundreds of individual creatures (or people!) that can surround and close in on the PCs. Fighting as a team in such situations would provide special, unique bonuses.

I don't know this is enough, but it'll have to be a start.

[Creed]

Dear Forum-Peeps,

Just wondering:
I've been a little inactive lately, and I fear I may have missed the newest update to the manual. Has it updated in the last few weeks?
Also, if it hasn't:
Dust, would you please grace us with a sampling of added... things in the new version you refered to in the past? Or amendments that no one mentioned but you discovered in your own benevolent eye?
...
This is more for the sake of my curiosity. If alot of things are being changed, feel free to say "Alot of sh*t, Creed. No shut the f*ck up."

Lots of <3,
Creed

[Mecharious]

Ah, Creed, you are clearly a master of wordplay. :smalltongue:

[AshDesert]

I have a question, when making a Limit Break, how does Area Effect interact with Drain HP? Do you half of all damage you do to all enemies in Medium Range? Or do you just gain half of the damage done to one person? It seems like it would be the first one, but that's a lot of HP to gain from one attack.

[Mecharious]

It's the first one, and yeah, it's going to be a lot of hp. I figure by the third level of limit breaks, you're going to get healed to full hp no matter what...

[Temotei]

It seems like it would be the first one, but that's a lot of HP to gain from one attack.

It also requires a critical hit when at 25% HP or lower, or three Destiny.

EDIT: I've thought about limit breaks a little. What do you think of an option to change one property in your old limit breaks every time you gain a new one (so, basically, you can change your fifth-level limit break twice and your fifteenth-level limit break once)?

[Sipex]

Hey, there's a guy looking for a game to playtest (for free obviously), his thread is here:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10187556#post10187556

[Kobold-Bard]

@Dust: Are Paladins supposed to get instant action spells, or is that a typo like all the other mage classes saying their magic takes a standard action on their Innate ability?

Because that seems crazy powerful.

Edit: Apparently White Mages say Instant too, which makes me doubt whether this was a mistake. However I still say it's OP.

[Dust]

Magic is all Slow actions regardless of Job. I have no idea why it's all over the place like that. From way back on page 10:


Trauma needs to be a Passive and not an Instant ability, another copy-pasta error leading to game confusion there. It's kind of like how some of the magic 'innate' abilities are standard actions and some are passive; just bad proofreading on my part.

I'm inclined to say that limit breaks aren't things that should be altered once created. In our first playtest game ever, one PC underwent a serious personality shift midway through the game. The character was an Undead blue mage who the party used to carry around in a ceramic jar when he got KO'd. His first limit break was a death-inducing attack with some pretty malicious flavor - when his character changed to full Hero Mode™ halfway through the game, we sat down and talked about the possibility of changing limit breaks because the first one no longer suited him. The consensus was that going back and changing the limit seemed....unfaithful to the character, in a way. Short of a LB no longer making SENSE for the character, we decided there's no reason Cloud should go back and turn his Omnislash into Omniheal simply because he crunched the numbers and realized the latter was better for min-maxing purposes.
But, like so many things, it's up to the GMs and players to decide on. Just not an option I plan on mentioning in the rules.

Area Effect/Drain HP is a legit combination. And least, for now. Limit Breaks are next on the list of stuff to re-test and review.


STUFF
Dearest Creed,

You haven't missed anything. I've been working on a module and mussing with potential website hosting - truth be told, they're both distractions so that I don't have to dive back into the corebook right away. I have a word document that's six pages long of things to change and fix and add, but it is documented something like the following:

- wind geotrance should grant flight for geomancers
- gambler-specific legendary weapon; Fortune's Favor, arcane, grants bonuses based on the number of Bad Luck pnts gambler has accumulated?
- paradigm shifting, FFXIII-specific shared ability. Commando/ACC, Sentinel/ARM/M.ARM, Ravager/Damage, Synergist/???, Medic/HPregen/MPregen, Saboteur/penalties to enemies vs status effects
- FFVII-specific Graft, Mako Infusion
- Entertainers are friggin' overpowered as str-monkies that self-buff thanks to Knack. MAKE SURE NOBODY NOTICES. DISTRACT THEM WITH SHINY OBJECTS AND TIME MAGIC. Also, genius and madness is dumb and far too taxing on GMs. Replace it with...
- Pictomancy, creation of something out of nothing. Need a sword in a hurry? BAM, PAINTED. Feel like sketching a Pokémon to save the day? The world is your canvas, limited only by imagination.
- Samurai draw-out shouldn't miss
- Fighters need to be cooler, they're just way too situational right now, make them more well-rounded.
- Accessory - Sightless Bandana - +1 ACC, Auto-Blind, 100g
- Improved Arsenal needs to be fixed, right now monks can stack it with martial arts and be unstoppable
- fix Gungnir
- Find more ACC-reducing stuff to piss off ninjas =D =D
- Spells need to have neater elemental features; flavor and function. electricity uncontrollable, wind faster to cast, etc etc
- Fix Teamwork Attacks. How? Damned if I know, go watch three musketeers like 71 times.
- yet another typo in the improbable weapons section, one too many S-es. LRN2PROOFREED NUB
- provide a list of example Materia and their costs. The should also give a bonus to certain attributes and a detriment to others
- eventually, you're going to have to suck it up and play the new MMO in order to do a section about that. QUITCHER STALLIN'.

As you can probably imagine, this ends up making a gal's head hurt pretty quick. Six pages of that, compounded with the discoveries found in this thread, reports of endless typos, and a few neat ideas I may end up stealing from the homebrew section. :smallcool:

Lots of <3,
Dust

[Temotei]

I'm inclined to say that limit breaks aren't things that should be altered once created. In our first playtest game ever, one PC underwent a serious personality shift midway through the game. The character was an Undead blue mage who the party used to carry around in a ceramic jar when he got KO'd. His first limit break was a death-inducing attack with some pretty malicious flavor - when his character changed to full Hero Mode™ halfway through the game, we sat down and talked about the possibility of changing limit breaks because the first one no longer suited him. The consensus was that going back and changing the limit seemed....unfaithful to the character, in a way. Short of a LB no longer making SENSE for the character, we decided there's no reason Cloud should go back and turn his Omnislash into Omniheal simply because he crunched the numbers and realized the latter was better for min-maxing purposes.
But, like so many things, it's up to the GMs and players to decide on. Just not an option I plan on mentioning in the rules.

I meant just one or two changes throughout the character's career--not enough to drastically alter the limit breaks, but enough to get rid of a little overlap if the player changes their mind or feels like their character fits better with this. Alternatively, there could be overlap on one of their limit breaks, making their older one(s) obsolete or far less useful. Generally, that'll be true regardless, but it might be nice to be able to have:

Area Effect [5], Physical Attack [3], Elemental (Shadow) [2]

...for your first limit break, then change it to have another effect other than Physical Attack because their 25th-level limit break has that effect too.

Of course, that's not how limit breaks work in the games, but limit breaks in general don't work like they do in the games (VII had increasing damage requirements for higher-level limit breaks, while X had different modes for gaining overdrive points), so a little change like a one-time alteration seems fairly minor.

[Mecharious]

Anyway, I have some suggestions.
-Make a sword's piercing strike ability 1/encounter. Once per sessoin seems ridiculously weak.
-Legendary accessory for time mages
-Give characters like thieves and ninjas at least *some* reason to want more than 1 point in strength. I don't have any simple solutions for that, although I have played a game where ranged and concealed weapons were half based off strength, and half based of dexterity
-I think there should be more black magic than white magic and time magic. Why? Because many black magic abilities are identical besides the damage type.
-Specification whether synthesis can be used during character creation (even if that's up to the GM, I'd at least like to see the rules say that.)
-Make more choices for early weapon properties. The best option, by far, seems to be stat bonuses. Personally, I don't think stat bonuses of the same type should stack, but most people seem to love stacking.
-Guidelines for creating new jobs, maybe?

[Kobold-Bard]

Nothing to see here, move on with your life. Section 31 does not exist.

[Mecharious]

I am the lizard king!

[IcarusWings]

- paradigm shifting, FFXIII-specific shared ability. Commando/ACC, Sentinel/ARM/M.ARM, Ravager/Damage, Synergist/???, Medic/HPregen/MPregen, Saboteur/penalties to enemies vs status effects


Me likey, I was right on the verge of Homebrewing something on Paradigms. Although I was gonna' do it as the innate ability of a L'cie job, rather than shared.

[Dust]

A L'cie job would be cool to see. Let me know if you end up with anything!

[Creed]

Dearest Creed,

You haven't missed anything. I've been working on a module and mussing with potential website hosting - truth be told, they're both distractions so that I don't have to dive back into the corebook right away. I have a word document that's six pages long of things to change and fix and add, but it is documented something like the following:

- wind geotrance should grant flight for geomancers
- gambler-specific legendary weapon; Fortune's Favor, arcane, grants bonuses based on the number of Bad Luck pnts gambler has accumulated?
- paradigm shifting, FFXIII-specific shared ability. Commando/ACC, Sentinel/ARM/M.ARM, Ravager/Damage, Synergist/???, Medic/HPregen/MPregen, Saboteur/penalties to enemies vs status effects
- FFVII-specific Graft, Mako Infusion
- Entertainers are friggin' overpowered as str-monkies that self-buff thanks to Knack. MAKE SURE NOBODY NOTICES. DISTRACT THEM WITH SHINY OBJECTS AND TIME MAGIC. Also, genius and madness is dumb and far too taxing on GMs. Replace it with...
- Pictomancy, creation of something out of nothing. Need a sword in a hurry? BAM, PAINTED. Feel like sketching a Pokémon to save the day? The world is your canvas, limited only by imagination.
- Samurai draw-out shouldn't miss
- Fighters need to be cooler, they're just way too situational right now, make them more well-rounded.
- Accessory - Sightless Bandana - +1 ACC, Auto-Blind, 100g
- Improved Arsenal needs to be fixed, right now monks can stack it with martial arts and be unstoppable
- fix Gungnir
- Find more ACC-reducing stuff to piss off ninjas =D =D
- Spells need to have neater elemental features; flavor and function. electricity uncontrollable, wind faster to cast, etc etc
- Fix Teamwork Attacks. How? Damned if I know, go watch three musketeers like 71 times.
- yet another typo in the improbable weapons section, one too many S-es. LRN2PROOFREED NUB
- provide a list of example Materia and their costs. The should also give a bonus to certain attributes and a detriment to others
- eventually, you're going to have to suck it up and play the new MMO in order to do a section about that. QUITCHER STALLIN'.

As you can probably imagine, this ends up making a gal's head hurt pretty quick. Six pages of that, compounded with the discoveries found in this thread, reports of endless typos, and a few neat ideas I may end up stealing from the homebrew section. :smallcool:

Lots of <3,
Dust

Alrighty then! Thanks for the response!:smallbiggrin:

[steelsmiter]

Here's a handfull of words for ya: FFXII Limit Break Concurrences...

However I'll note here that I'm in nowhere near as big of a hurry as anyone else might be (Especially the [expletive deleted] that made the comment about you being a noob that can't "proofreed")

[IcarusWings]

'nother suggestion for the update is Limit Break Components that allow you to mimic Vincent from VII's limits, cos' transformation doesn't do it at all. Plus I'd add in a Special Ability component to limit breaks, like the weapon ability. Lots of players will homebrew their own components anyway, but it never hurts to explicitly state that that is fine, and even encouraged, in the system.

[steelsmiter]

Plus I'd add in a Special Ability component to limit breaks, like the weapon ability. Lots of players will homebrew their own components anyway, but it never hurts to explicitly state that that is fine, and even encouraged, in the system.

That's great!

[Dust]

(Especially the [expletive deleted] that made the comment about you being a noob that can't "proofreed")
That would have been, um, me. http://www.websmileys.com/sm/happy/028.gif I have the bad habit of making my jot notes very candid and it amuses me to go back and read them like that.

[Mecharious]

wind geotrance should grant flight for geomancers
Do you mean adding a new terrain type (wind)? Wouldn't that overlap with some of the other terrain?

gambler-specific legendary weapon; Fortune's Favor, arcane, grants bonuses based on the number of Bad Luck points gambler has accumulated?
Somehow an arcane weapon doesn't seem to fit thematically with a gambler.

paradigm shifting, FFXIII-specific shared ability. Commando/ACC, Sentinel/ARM/M.ARM, Ravager/Damage, Synergist/???, Medic/HPregen/MPregen, Saboteur/penalties to enemies vs status effects
Synergist would probably grant a damage or defensive bonus to allies or something. Sounds like a complicated ability. Maybe you only get two roles, and can take the ability again for two more?

Entertainers are friggin' overpowered as str-monkies that self-buff thanks to Knack. MAKE SURE NOBODY NOTICES. DISTRACT THEM WITH SHINY OBJECTS AND TIME MAGIC. Also, genius and madness is dumb and far too taxing on GMs. Replace it with...
Aren't they even more powerful as dex-monkies with concealed weapons?

Pictomancy, creation of something out of nothing. Need a sword in a hurry? BAM, PAINTED. Feel like sketching a Pokémon to save the day? The world is your canvas, limited only by imagination.
And limited by the rules I hope. I'd hate to GM a game where the entertainer starts drawing legendary weapons at level one. Still, it's good to see this skill back.

Samurai draw-out shouldn't miss
It can miss? Uh, well, good thing it won't be able to now!

Fighters need to be cooler, they're just way too situational right now, make them more well-rounded.
Maybe some FFTA/FFTA2 warrior abilities.

Accessory - Sightless Bandana - +1 ACC, Auto-Blind, 100g
What is going through your devious mind right now?

Improved Arsenal needs to be fixed, right now monks can stack it with martial arts and be unstoppable
All abilities that increase damage by a step under certain conditions should not stack. Ever.

Find more ACC-reducing stuff to piss off ninjas =D =D
Pirate themed accuracy reducing equipment. Yar.

Spells need to have neater elemental features; flavor and function. electricity uncontrollable, wind faster to cast, etc etc
Good thinking. Right now black magic doesn't have much variety.

Fix Teamwork Attacks. How? Damned if I know, go watch three musketeers like 71 times.
I actually like where they're at right now. They *could* be more interesting, but I don't think that should be top priority.

provide a list of example Materia and their costs. The should also give a bonus to certain attributes and a detriment to others
Is the FF7 section going to be 3x as big as all the others? :smallsmile:

eventually, you're going to have to suck it up and play the new MMO in order to do a section about that. QUITCHER STALLIN'.
Isn't that the only Final Fantasy games that the makers had to apologize for?


As you can probably imagine, this ends up making a gal's head hurt pretty quick. Six pages of that, compounded with the discoveries found in this thread, reports of endless typos, and a few neat ideas I may end up stealing from the homebrew section. :smallcool:

Well, we're here to help!

[Kobold-Bard]

...

Somehow an arcane weapon doesn't seem to fit thematically with a gambler.

...

ORLY?

Pair of dice that you roll and the spots shoot lasers?
Endless pack of playing cards you throw Gambit style?
- Playing cards that you draw and the suit symbol jumps off the cards and smashed them in the face?
Comically large coin you flip and then supersizes and lands on the opponent?

[Mecharious]

Those aren't ranged weapons?

[Kobold-Bard]

Those aren't ranged weapons?

Perhaps the card throwing, but I don't see rolling some dice as a ranged weapon (despite what Elan thinks (http://www.giantitp.com/Images/GuestWeek2005/oots0301.gif)).

[Mecharious]

Wait a sec... Gamblers don't even have arcane weapon proficiency!

[Dust]

Again, don't take too much from the jot notes! They still remain only that - remeber, six pages of that sort of thing.

[Mecharious]

I was thinking of maybe starting my own FFd6 game on these forums. I've never DMed on forums before (mostly because I didn't want to spend a lot of time on grids), but this game is pretty low maintenance for both players and DMs. I just thought I'd check if there's still any interest since this has spawned plenty of games on these forums (the game takes place in FFXII/FFTA2 Ivalice) :smallsmile:

Also, I have a number of house-rules in mind. I'll report back to Dust to tell her how it works out if the game gets started (biggest thing going to be my change to dex-based weapons.)

[Dust]

I'd play. :smallbiggrin:

[Naki]

So, I just found this, and I think it's a great alternative/fix for the other existing systems for emulating FF style games, and I found the same problem with the Fighter that has come up here: It's bland, and doesn't seem all that interesting.

It seems to try and eat up the flavour of the the FFT/V Knight, Squire, the classic Fighter and kind of the Swordmaster (via the use of Cleave). Wouldn't it be more effective to break it into two distinct classes: The Knight, a heavy armor user and front line fighter (taking notes from the FFTA Soldier, perhaps); and the Fighter, a arts-based combatant that eschews defense for combat prowess (ala, the style of Cyan, Orlandeau, Cloud, the FFTA Fighter). This would fix the problem that the Fighter doesn't seem to be all that interesting and perhaps perk up interest if it tries not to do everything at once. It seems like it's primary problem is that it tries to be strong and hearty, and when has to make a choice, it ends up worse for it.

EDIT: Other questions now that I've taken some time to read more.

On percentile modifier stacking: Is there a reason why a Fire Strike weapon, striking a Fire Weak enemy with a critical does 400% and not 300% (100% (base)+100%(critical)+100%(weakness))? It doesn't add up to me as to why it'd quadruple, and not triple if you meet 2 qualifiers for +100% damage.

The Samurai and Draw Out: Aren't all Samurai basically forced into taking Iaido if they want to make any use of their basic job ability? Else, they're being forced into paying out extra Gil, or being master artisans (for Synth) to play upkeep with their weapons? Wouldn't Draw Out function better if it was a base chance (75%), modified by Iaido (Down to 50 or even 25) instead of being a 100% chance of breakage? The flavour of Draw Out is drawing out the spirit, but it was that the power of exhausting the blade may come at the price of shattering it.

Dragoons: Jump seems largely pointless. It allows one to make an attack a medium range. But it's still subject to missing, and cannot become a critical hit. It's also Slow, and cannot be sped up via Haste, making questionable why a Dragoon would jump under normal circumstances? A Dragoon's normal attack seems to always be better. Perhaps I've missed something, though?

Damage Step stacking: Wouldn't it be prudent to limit these? Perhaps 3 times before you cannot take it anymore. A Paladin with Auto-Regen (or, god forbid, Auto-Aura) and taking Avenger multiple times appears to be able to devastate enemies, moreso than the Dark Knight, Thief or the Fighter.

Spells: Having I, II, II and the -a, -aga, -aja (Strangely, used as -aga II) seems redundant. If you want Party-versions to be weaker, why not apply a percent-based penalty to healing. 'Cure heals INTx2+2d6 to a single to target, or 75% of that amount to the Party'. In this case, it heals 27 HP to a single target on average at level 1, or 20 to the party (assuming 10 INT). At Curaga, it becomes more prevalent (still assuming 10 INT, which is likely false, but alas), INT*6+2d6 is 67 on a single target, or 50 to each. A gap of 17 damage, and only 7 less than what the current Curaga does. This gap increases as INT (and the scale) increases. It weeds out redundancy, and no longer forces a White Mage to pick up two different spells to heal the party effectively at each tier. The only time that Curaga and Curaga II scale better than usual is above-average party sizes (upwards of 5, where 5-7 castings of Cure II is both impossible and impractical on your MP).

As an alterative, as well, Cure I-IV should be Cure, Cura, Curaga, Curaja, while Curaga I and II would be Heal and Healra. (based from FFI) This allows them to fit naming conventions existant in Black Magic and Time Magic.

[Kobold-Bard]

I'd play. :smallbiggrin:

Me too, I'm running a game and setting up another, I'd like to actually play in one.


...

Dragoons: Jump seems largely pointless. It allows one to make an attack a medium range. But it's still subject to missing, and cannot become a critical hit. It's also Slow, and cannot be sped up via Haste, making questionable why a Dragoon would jump under normal circumstances? A Dragoon's normal attack seems to always be better. Perhaps I've missed something, though?

Whilst in the air you can't be targetted, so if you keep Jumping you can be fairly consistently immune to damage.

It should be able to be a critical hit though, I don't understand why it can't.

And by taking High Jump you become a Final Fantasy style cruise missile.

[Naki]

Whilst in the air you can't be targetted, so if you keep Jumping you can be fairly consistently immune to damage.

It should be able to be a critical hit though, I don't understand why it can't.

And by taking High Jump you become a Final Fantasy style cruise missile.
At least, early on yes. Once Group spells come into play, the Dragoon loses this immunity, and becomes largely lackluster. His once advantage is now more of a detriment, as he cannot use it to avoid a spell he knows is coming, and loses the option to use a limit break or even a critical hit if he makes what is his iconic attack. It immeadiately becomes better for him to make a normal attack action at that point. Which causes the "Hitting A is faster and more efficient than using spells" tactic that plagues the post-IV FFs to translate into a tabletop version. Which is bad. O-o

[Dust]

Wouldn't it be more effective to break it into two distinct classes: The Knight, a heavy armor user and front line fighter (taking notes from the FFTA Soldier, perhaps); and the Fighter, a arts-based combatant that eschews defense for combat prowess (ala, the style of Cyan, Orlandeau, Cloud, the FFTA Fighter).
I still feel that, with work, I can make the Fighter viable and interesting. The suggestion has been made a few times and I find myself still opposed to it. A swordmaster Job would be beyond redundant with all of the other sacrifice-defense-for-offense damage-dealing Jobs currently in the game, and I have no desire to set Knight and Paladin side by side and try and struggle to make them different, when in reality it boils down to 'one uses magic, one doesn't.'
Fighter needs to be fixed; not split.

Is there a reason why a Fire Strike weapon, striking a Fire Weak enemy with a critical does 400% and not 300% (100% (base)+100%(critical)+100%(weakness))? It doesn't add up to me as to why it'd quadruple, and not triple if you meet 2 qualifiers for +100% damage.
Likely because I'm terrible at trying to stay consistent when it comes to abstract mathematical damage formulae. I feel the damage multipliers are a hindrance, and the errors/inconsistencies that pop up regarding those is partially because I really, really didn't want to be using them. You're correct, 300% damage makes sense, and I realize it isn't written that way.
The percentage-based damage jumps is something that needs to be looked at closely for a variety of reasons.

Aren't all Samurai basically forced into taking Iaido if they want to make any use of their basic job ability? Else, they're being forced into paying out extra Gil, or being master artisans (for Synth) to play upkeep with their weapons? Wouldn't Draw Out function better if it was a base chance (75%), modified by Iaido (Down to 50 or even 25) instead of being a 100% chance of breakage? The flavour of Draw Out is drawing out the spirit, but it was that the power of exhausting the blade may come at the price of shattering it.
Aren't all Geomancers basically forced into taking Home Terrain in order to use their basic job ability? I mean, otherwise you're battling in a SNOW area and using ice attacks on enemies are probably resistant to it.
Gambler only has a 60% chance at success with his Slots unless he takes One for the Money. You'd be foolish not to.

Draw Out, I feel, is just fine.
Samurai is getting some tweaks; predominantly in how they sacrifice damage for support in the 'Break' abilities instead of combining it. As mentioned previously it bothers me I haven't stated that Draw Out attacks can't miss, need to have their bonus effects adjusted, and I also feel that some non-status-inducing weapon properties should activate on Draw Out as well.
But for the most part, Draw Out is powerful enough that it needed the drawback, and I'm uninclined to change it anytime soon.


Wouldn't it be prudent to limit these? Perhaps 3 times before you cannot take it anymore. A Paladin with Auto-Regen (or, god forbid, Auto-Aura) and taking Avenger multiple times appears to be able to devastate enemies, moreso than the Dark Knight, Thief or the Fighter.
That's definitely one fix, and something I'll have to ponder. (As an aside, Auto-Aura, as granted passively by equipment, doesn't exist.)

Having I, II, II and the -a, -aga, -aja (Strangely, used as -aga II) seems redundant. If you want Party-versions to be weaker, why not apply a percent-based penalty to healing.
Cure I-IV should be Cure, Cura, Curaga, Curaja. This allows them to fit naming conventions existant in Black Magic and Time Magic.
This is brilliant and I can't believe it didn't occur to me before. A well-needed fix and an awesome suggestion. Thanks!

It should be able to be a critical hit though, I don't understand why it can't.
To prevent it from being used every round nonstop.

[Mecharious]

Okay then, I think I'll put a thread up in recruitment later today.

[Mecharious]

And it's up: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10243079#post10243079

[Temotei]

I was just playing Final Fantasy VII again, when I came across the Golden Saucer game with the mog in it. The game said that the main character was twenty-eight years old--just old enough to become an adult by flying and finding a mate.

Is it intentional that twenty-eight is on the higher end of the "Old" age scale?

[Dust]

He IS pretty old.

[Temotei]

He IS pretty old.

Where does that aging scale come from, though? The arcade game said he was becoming an adult.

[Naki]

I still feel that, with work, I can make the Fighter viable and interesting. The suggestion has been made a few times and I find myself still opposed to it. A swordmaster Job would be beyond redundant with all of the other sacrifice-defense-for-offense damage-dealing Jobs currently in the game, and I have no desire to set Knight and Paladin side by side and try and struggle to make them different, when in reality it boils down to 'one uses magic, one doesn't.'
Fighter needs to be fixed; not split.

Thats fine, I see what you're getting at. I'm not so sure about an abundance of Eschew Defense for Offense classes though. The Dark Knight is still pretty tanky, and can restore it's own HP fairly consistently. The Dragoon can avoid targetted spells with 100% efficiency. The Monk, as always, is the epitome of "OhdeargodtheHPz". The Samurai, Ninja and Thief are about it when it comes to this option. I still believe that looking at Iconic Fighters (Cloud, Steiner, Squall) is a good idea, however. Blade Beam, for example, is something that's fairly iconic for Fighter types in FF now, and gives the Fighter a bit more versatility.


Likely because I'm terrible at trying to stay consistent when it comes to abstract mathematical damage formulae. I feel the damage multipliers are a hindrance, and the errors/inconsistencies that pop up regarding those is partially because I really, really didn't want to be using them. You're correct, 300% damage makes sense, and I realize it isn't written that way.
The percentage-based damage jumps is something that needs to be looked at closely for a variety of reasons.

I see what you're getting at. I imagine it's how it's originally worded. "Fire Strike deals 200% and you critical, dealing 200%, thus, 400%!" Instead of treating them at +100% modifiers each. Though, I do agree, the percentage-based damage is something I found wrong with other systems, as it was far too easy to abuse.


Aren't all Geomancers basically forced into taking Home Terrain in order to use their basic job ability? I mean, otherwise you're battling in a SNOW area and using ice attacks on enemies are probably resistant to it.
Gambler only has a 60% chance at success with his Slots unless he takes One for the Money. You'd be foolish not to.

Draw Out, I feel, is just fine.
Samurai is getting some tweaks; predominantly in how they sacrifice damage for support in the 'Break' abilities instead of combining it. As mentioned previously it bothers me I haven't stated that Draw Out attacks can't miss, need to have their bonus effects adjusted, and I also feel that some non-status-inducing weapon properties should activate on Draw Out as well.
But for the most part, Draw Out is powerful enough that it needed the drawback, and I'm uninclined to change it anytime soon.

Admittedly, I haven't looked over every class that indepth yet, so I wasn't aware of the similar issue with the Gambler and Geomancer. However, those are good points I largely agree with. I'm still not necessarily on board with "You break your weapon and are largely useless for the rest of the fight", making Draw Out into a "Dear God, this best kill the boss!" and no other use. I don't really find that too drawing as a class feature, but YMMV. Not missing it definitely a good start, but unless Samurai have a method of restoring Kami to repaired weapons, you use it once a tier, or you're begging friends for cash every couple of fights.



That's definitely one fix, and something I'll have to ponder. (As an aside, Auto-Aura, as granted passively by equipment, doesn't exist.)


This is true, it doesn't. However, it's easily added via Special Ability/?Spell Effect? (if not by Auto-Status) on a custom weapon. Which most (see: all) players are likely to have. It can be obtained as early as Tier 2, theoretically.


This is brilliant and I can't believe it didn't occur to me before. A well-needed fix and an awesome suggestion. Thanks!

Glad to help; I thought it was odd, and figured it'd be worth pointing out.


To prevent it from being used every round nonstop.

I discussed this with my group, and while one of us argued "It's clearly for balance!" without actually giving some mechanic-based reasoning, the rest of us couldn't grasp a situation where Single target ranged effects wouldn't work, but short range group effects (Like, say, a Limit) would. Either Jump is worded poorly, of it's just not quite balanced yet. We noted that any situation where a Dragoon could reasonably targeted by a Group attack, would mean he could be targeted by a Single target, medium (or long, in High Jump's case) ability as well. We understood Rule of Cool was in effect, but it still caused a degree of breaking our suspension. Either, Jump needs to be worded more effectively to clarify what attacks target is (Medium/Long ranged Group attacks and Local, I assume), or allow Medium/Long ranged single target spells and make it worthwhile to use (unable to miss, or able to crit. Something to that effect).

[Kobold-Bard]

Sagacity- Special
The character is a Sage, and has dabbled in even the most obscure magical arts. Sages have obtained the ability to learn Time Magic in addition to the standard Red and Black schools.

Minor error, don't know if it's been mentioned before.

[steelsmiter]

Someone mentioned Upthread about looking at main characters like say, Steiner, and with that in mind I'll be working on a sword saint class that makes his build more viable...

[Naki]

Someone mentioned Upthread about looking at main characters like say, Steiner, and with that in mind I'll be working on a sword saint class that makes his build more viable...

I had considered doing this, but Steiner is a Mystic Knight (Of FFV) and a plain old Knight. Sword Saint wouldn't actually encompass any of his or Beatrix' abilities at all (As it's unique to FFT and is a medium ranged sword caster). He really is more of a Samurai+Red Mage in this case (He uses all of the breaks + Spellblades)

[steelsmiter]

I had considered doing this, but Steiner is a Mystic Knight (Of FFV) and a plain old Knight. Sword Saint wouldn't actually encompass any of his or Beatrix' abilities at all (As it's unique to FFT and is a medium ranged sword caster). He really is more of a Samurai+Red Mage in this case (He uses all of the breaks + Spellblades)

sorry I hadn't played FFT I was thinking he was a cross between Pal (for white magic) and Sam (for breaks), but didn't know whether the word I translated into english was Kensei or Kensai, so I used the translation without being aware there was a class for it... I was just gonna throw the spellblade in there and work it more like it was in 9 calling it something else for the sake of ability diffrentiation. I was also gonna call the "Draw Out" ability something else and give it MP based mechanics, again for diffrentiation.

[TheBoyce]

A question

Items that have properties that can be used 1/session. The wording implies that this property is on the weapon itself, so could someone use a sword's Piercing Strike then equip a new sword and use Piercing strike again?

[Kobold-Bard]

A question

Items that have properties that can be used 1/session. The wording implies that this property is on the weapon itself, so could someone use a sword's Piercing Strike then equip a new sword and use Piercing strike again?

Sure, why not?

[TheBoyce]

Then a Monk with Counter and Hamedo could just buy a bunch of fist weapons and well, you get the idea

[Dust]

Currently the answer is yes by RAW, but remember swapping weapons takes a Standard action. This is one of the things that's getting altered.

As for Steiner, well.
The character was originally conceived as a 'Paladin' named 'Edward' Steiner, leading a group of other Alexandrian paladins. He was coded as having the Magic Sword ability, which he could self-cast, but it had nothing to do with his Job. The developers later realized this didn't make a lot of sense for the character, since the game definitely didn't need another character with access to healing magic, and this would actually make him not a Paladin, but a Mystic Knight - a Job that, up until that point, had only ever appeared in Final Fantasy V.
So when they sat down and re-wrote the character, they turned him into rumbling comic relief and made him work with Vivi to use his Magic Sword instead.
Because of these changes, Steiner doesn't fall easily into a single Job category. Much like Aeris, who was conceived as a Geomancer and then changed at the last minute.
/soapbox

If I was to sit down and build an additional Job, it would certainly be a Fencer/Spellblade-esque type to fill in the gaps of character concepts that...
A) have difficulty being built in the system right now
B) are canon

I'm just not sure that's what the system needs most right now. YAKNOW?

[Naki]

I'm just not sure that's what the system needs most right now. YAKNOW?

IMHO, Balance + Playable > Canon.

Balance one set of classes and rules first. Add more later. This is the primary problem with That Other Final Fantasy Tabletop. (I refuse to name them. My experiences with the system and community made me drop their system altogether. Just... to clarify that reaction.)

[Mecharious]

Hey Dust, why do Time mages get STR to accuracy AND INT to evasion? That seems like a bit of overkill in conjunction with Mind over Matter (which is like the Black Mage's "Into the Fray" x2)

[Dust]

Mind over Matter isn't affecting damage done as of the update.
It will still give them accuracy, much like Black Mages already use INT for acc.

[Mecharious]

Okay, fair enough.

[wiimanclassic]

Well the system has a few more fanons on another site. Its gone from 1 RP to 4 each with different members and RP styles. I would say this is a hit since other RPs on there don't last.......also a KH RP using FF11 style freelancer rules led to an...interesting character. What other zombie kills you by pelvic thrusts that launch seeds?





Tl:Dr FFD6 is a hit on another site. Also Pelvic Thrusting Zombie.

[Mecharious]

pelvic thrusts that launch seeds?

.........What? Or is my mind just perverted?

[wiimanclassic]

.........What? Or is my mind just perverted?

Seed Canon Blue spell dude.

[Temotei]

Seed Canon Blue spell dude.

I find it humorous in both regards.

[wiimanclassic]

Yeah I for some reason always try and make weird characters if I don't plan to kill them off in a way thats meant to effect the other players......so I just thought of something. Does indestructable count for being immune to atmospheric reentry? If so I can just go to space and then ram my ship into a city.





Why did I come up with that?

[Mecharious]

I assume indestructable means indestructable to anything...

...Except samurai.

[steelsmiter]

speaking of which how do the Undead Mutation, Aura Magic, and Self Destruct interact? I had a character in a game I ran do 75% HP to group.

[wiimanclassic]

speaking of which how do the Undead Mutation, Aura Magic, and Self Destruct interact? I had a character in a game I ran do 75% HP to group.

It would still do your max hp to the enemies. Aura Magic just makes you take 25% of your max hp as damage first. Then selfdestruct kills you and does 100% of your max hp to them...and undead just means you come back the next day.

[Naki]

Srsfaicquestion: Steal HP.

Is this a permanent HP increase? If so, what stops a thief from opening up round 1 on a boss and instantly gaining hundreds (or, perhaps, thousands, later on) of permanent HP by spending 3 Destiny, as well as halving it's HP outright? (Outside of not having the necessary Destiny)

[wiimanclassic]

Srsfaicquestion: Steal HP.

Is this a permanent HP increase? If so, what stops a thief from opening up round 1 on a boss and instantly gaining hundreds (or, perhaps, thousands, later on) of permanent HP by spending 3 Destiny, as well as halving it's HP outright? (Outside of not having the necessary Destiny)

Huh I though it just increased your hp like if you used drain or something. Not an actual max HP bonus.......onion freelancer+master thief+boss=my god.



Please god let it work the way you think it does.

[Naki]

Huh I though it just increased your hp like if you used drain or something. Not an actual max HP bonus.......onion freelancer+master thief+boss=my god.

Please god let it work the way you think it does.

Freelancers can't do that, thankfully. I'm actually hoping it doesn work that way. It makes spamming Steal HP an entire boss fight the best way to rack up tons and tons of HP and trivialize the game entirely. One high-HP boss, and ohsweetjesus, your thief is now a tank.

[steelsmiter]

if I was running it I'd reduce the monster's max HP because of it requiring destiny but only heal the player for game balance issues, I consider that a nifty compromise. :)

[wiimanclassic]

Eh my free lancer can still dish out the pain without insane hp. Hehe onion, soul eater, unequip onion, rape entire KH world(1 world-1 session), get destiny from boss, get bonus due to victory pose, rinse, repeat.

[Dust]

Does indestructable count for being immune to atmospheric reentry? If so I can just go to space and then ram my ship into a city.
Yes, but space-capable isn't really included in the 'Flight' property of a special vehicle. I'll have to add that, since it's canon in the series.
There's actually a section in the book for GMs, discussing how to handle players who use combat tactics exactly like the 'I slam my airship into the behemoth/city.'

speaking of which how do the Undead Mutation, Aura Magic, and Self Destruct interact? I had a character in a game I ran do 75% HP to group.
Wiiman nailed this one already. Self-Destruct combined with Aura Magic is a perfectly legit tactic if you...y'know, like to fight that way. Better hope your enemies aren't Fire Resistant.
Since you return to health after combat with 1hp, Undead doesn't really interact with it at all. The Undead job ability lets you return from actual character death.

Srsfaicquestion: Steal HP. Is this a permanent HP increase?
Oh god, no. I'll make sure I word the ability better in the next revision.

Eh my free lancer can still dish out the pain without insane hp. Hehe onion, soul eater, unequip onion, rape entire KH world(1 world-1 session), get destiny from boss, get bonus due to victory pose, rinse, repeat.
Legendary Weapons and Accessories such as the Onion are all game breakers, though I'll have to edit it to prevent the 'equip/use/unequip' silliness. That said, couldn't you do the same thing as a Dark Knight? Freelancer provides no actual bonus in that situation other than the +1 Destiny you'd gain for leveling-up.
Being a Freelancer still seems to hinder you in every possible way - as it should.

[steelsmiter]

Yes, but space-capable isn't really included in the 'Flight' property of a special vehicle. I'll have to add that, since it's canon in the series.
There's actually a section in the book for GMs, discussing how to handle players who use combat tactics exactly like the 'I slam my airship into the behemoth/city.'

Unorthodox Travel?


Wiiman nailed this one already. Self-Destruct combined with Aura Magic is a perfectly legit tactic if you...y'know, like to fight that way. Better hope your enemies aren't Fire Resistant.
Since you return to health after combat with 1hp, Undead doesn't really interact with it at all. The Undead job ability lets you return from actual character death.

Thankee

[Dust]

Unorthodox Travel?
I think I still feel like being more specific about it. :smallwink:

[Naki]

Oh god, no. I'll make sure I word the ability better in the next revision.

Thank god. Everyone in our IRC room read it and flipped out. o_O;;

[wiimanclassic]

Its a ship to go from world to world in a KH based game so space travel is a given for it. Besides its just incase something EOTW appears and we would NEED a kill sat for it.



Also the DM gave me an onion at the start so uh yeah bad planning on her part, I only asked for one as a joke, and its been used once.


Is blue magic slow or standard?

[Dust]

All magic is Slow actions. It's been mentioned a few times in this thread and desperately needs to be retyped asap.

[wiimanclassic]

.......punching something in the groin is slow.....oh well the DM read the manual and when asked(and she does know the all magic is slow thing) said some blue is standard. Bit of a house rule really. Handled like below.



Maybe a bit of a case by case basis? Something like Goblin Punch is standard, seed cannon would be slow, Pollen would be slow, like physical ones like goblin punch or self destruct would be standard(due to not having you make stuff appear) while something like Chocoball or seed cannon needs you to use your magic to create something first would be slow.

[Tokugawa]

Utterly fantastic. Thanks so much for this, Dust, and all others who contributed. I'm so happy to find material of this caliber. And it's free. :smile:

[Dust]

Hey, always a pleasure. :smallbiggrin:

[Dust]

Preemptive question answering; You gain a new ability every 4 levels, not 5 as one of the typos incorrectly states.

[Mecharious]

I wasn't going to ask, actually. I thought someone already pointed that out in here. :smallsmile:

[Naki]

Round.... something of questions.

My group is now getting into the thick of actually creating characters, and a few things came up:

Arcane Weapons: I'm not sure what the trade off here is? The half damage? When they crit, they do full damage, and at level one, it hits INTx4, with no MP expenditure. I don't think any non-caster can match this. Sure, it's only on crits, but still.

On that, Thieves and Concealed weapons. A dex-for-damage weapon on a Dex-based class, where Knack makes them ignore Strength altogether? Where can that go wrong.[/sarcasm] I actually think it's less Concealed Weapon's fault, and that there's no actual incentive to use Blades, Reach, or Huge for most classes. (Dragoon and Samurai are the exception!)

Sneak Attack itself is pretty powerful, but then I realized, it's actually a good method of making the other weapons more viable. Blades and Reach each do +1 damage step, while Huge do +2. Arcane Weapons fall back into line (Just beating out Huge on crits, and more as a Black Mage with Into the Fray), Concealed is no longer the king of weapons, Ranged and Brawl suffered no problems to start with and are fine where they are.

EDIT: There was actually supposed to be a question at the end: would my proposed fix unbalance numbers, or would it work just fine?

EDIT2: Dragoon questions! Threaten+Impale. Does the first attack deal 0 damage, then Impale kicks in, for an extra hit? Or does using Threaten forgo Impale's effect?
Likewise, Lancet+Impale? Can Lancet crit? If Lancet crits, does it then Impale, and heal for 150% Or 200% if Impale also crits?

[Dust]

Arcane Weapons: I'm not sure what the trade off here is? The half damage? When they crit, they do full damage, and at level one, it hits INTx4, with no MP expenditure. I don't think any non-caster can match this. Sure, it's only on crits, but still.
Casters who sit there and attack with Arcane weapons every round instead of casting spells, despite the critical hit chance for big numbers, do less overall damage than your average melee fellow.
A critical hit, which happens much less than a natural 20 on a d20 roll, is essentially the character managing a 'normal' power hit and a spell in the same round. It does, however, give casters something they can do when they're looking to conserve MP without feeling like they're swinging a stick around worthlessly.
It also puts hybrid-style characters, such as Black Mages with 'Into the Fray' as you mention later, on par with other melee heroes. Which they should be. We've done lots of testing on Arcane weapons, and I'm honestly pretty happy with how it works currently.

On that, Thieves and Concealed weapons. A dex-for-damage weapon on a Dex-based class, where Knack makes them ignore Strength altogether? Where can that go wrong.[/sarcasm]
Yeah. This is a big one currently, and it's been raised quite a lot. I don't know for certain how I'm going to tackle this yet and I'm open to suggestions.

Blades and Reach each do +1 damage step, while Huge do +2.
I like how each category of weapon provides something different and unique right now, and I don't see something like Huge Weapons simply dealing more damage than the others as a way to solve any of the problems. To get down to the core of the issue, it's that certain Jobs can just stack a single attribute as high as it'll go and be rock-solid. That's the main thing that needs fixing I think, not the weapon categories.

Dragoon questions! Threaten+Impale. Does the first attack deal 0 damage, then Impale kicks in, for an extra hit? Or does using Threaten forgo Impale's effect?
Yes, having those two job abilities means that you land a critical hit and may attack a second time. On either one of those hits, you can choose to forgo dealing any damage/etc and cause an MMORPG-style 'taunt' effect.

Hm. I need to clean up Threaten's description and fix the typos. Things like 'causing any effects' is enormously vague.

Lancet+Impale? Can Lancet crit? If Lancet crits, does it then Impale, and heal for 150% Or 200% if Impale also crits?
Lancet can crit, as can just about any ability that says 'make a normal attack action, PLUS....' This would cause the character to deal more damage than usual, but Lancet still only heals 100% of the damage done.
Follow-Through would then allow the character to make another attack action. This second attack could not be a Lancet, which is still technically a job ability.
You bring up a good point here unintentionally. Obviously, how abilities that mimic attacks actually WORK needs to be reworded and clarified in broad strokes instead of just rewording things here and there.

[Naki]

Casters who sit there and attack with Arcane weapons every round instead of casting spells, despite the critical hit chance for big numbers, do less overall damage than your average melee fellow.
A critical hit, which happens much less than a natural 20 on a d20 roll, is essentially the character managing a 'normal' power hit and a spell in the same round. It does, however, give casters something they can do when they're looking to conserve MP without feeling like they're swinging a stick around worthlessly.
It also puts hybrid-style characters, such as Black Mages with 'Into the Fray' as you mention later, on par with other melee heroes. Which they should be. We've done lots of testing on Arcane weapons, and I'm honestly pretty happy with how it works currently.

I don't see how this puts them 'on par' with melee heroes. It actually puts them ahead in most cases. The ability to melee adequately, cast more powerful spells, and cast them at no cost on a crit is overkill. Melee needs some serious benefits to match this. Wild Swing is the closest Melee gets, and it's heavily situational and will deal significantly less damage. A mage who hits 0 MP has two choices: regain MP somehow (primary choice), or, failing that, arcane melee! Given the small MP pools at early levels, Into the Fray looks incredibly tempting for a Black Mage just starting out.


Yeah. This is a big one currently, and it's been raised quite a lot. I don't know for certain how I'm going to tackle this yet and I'm open to suggestions.
Making their accuracy Not-Dex is a probably a good start. Concealed shouldn't have two effects, either. That's why it's strictly better, and I proposed giving second effects to Blades, Reach and Huge. As it is, Blades are the weakest (with Peircing 1/session) of every weapon choice. Concealed pulls way into the lead by having it deal Dex damage, AND deal an extra +1 damage step, along with being able to reroll if you miss. Concealed doing one, or the other, puts it on par with other weapons. Else, you need to buff other weapons to match.


I like how each category of weapon provides something different and unique right now, and I don't see something like Huge Weapons simply dealing more damage than the others as a way to solve any of the problems. To get down to the core of the issue, it's that certain Jobs can just stack a single attribute as high as it'll go and be rock-solid. That's the main thing that needs fixing I think, not the weapon categories.

And I didn't suggest to change that. My intent was to ask if my method would cause the numbers to explode violently. It was intended more as a personal fix, than a suggestion. I apologize if it came off as otherwise. Blades and Huge need actual incentive for the classes that can use them. Dragoons only have them as a legacy hold-over from Kain, and there's literally no reason for a Dragoon to ever use anything other than a Reach weapon, none of their abilities promote using other options. Changing this for other classes is probably a good place to start.

And thank you on the Dragoon clarifications.

Also, I just picked on the Dragoon because it was the easiest to poke holes in. :P

[Mecharious]

Dex-based characters are especially powerful because they can use dex to affect all their combat attributes. At home, I decided to make concealed and ranged weapons do 1/2 damage based on STR and 1/2 based on DEX. It's worked okay, but I anticipate it to cause severe damage issues late game. I tried balancing this by adding a rule preventing stat-stacking (a hard limit to stats could also work), so that only boosting one stat wouldn't be viable.

I think Into the Fray is balanced because it costs an ability to allow black mages to do what melee types can normally do without spending an ability. Keep in mind that it doesn't give Black Mages any more HP to survive melee counter-attacks, or any evasion to avoid getting hit. And even then, Black mages don't have any other abilities that improve their fighting, while a fighter or ranger ONLY has abilities that improve how they fight with weapons. Therefore, I don't really think it's imbalanced for black mages to deal good damage with a weapon if it puts them in danger and costs them an ability for something that won't really improve later.

Edit: Also, I think the Deep Breathing ability for Dragoons needs to be changed. A static modifier makes the ability absolute garbage late game, and ridiculously good early game. Maybe if its damage multiplier was 1 higher than your currently equiped weapon or something.

[Tokugawa]

I've only read a few pages of this thread, but is there another thread or site that's for FFD6? Trying to plan out an adventure for my friends and I and just looking for material or ideas. A little difficult getting into the FFd6 mindset.

[Kobold-Bard]

I've only read a few pages of this thread, but is there another thread or site that's for FFD6? Trying to plan out an adventure for my friends and I and just looking for material or ideas. A little difficult getting into the FFd6 mindset.

There's some homebrew here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=175844), and there are various games running, but as far as I know all discussion is contained within the PDF & this thread.

What are you looking for?

[Tokugawa]

I was looking more for adventure ideas, or outlines, or some sort of GM-friendly material. I've played DND numerous times, but have never been a DM. I've read the pdf a couple times now and I have an idea on what I'm going to do, but one thing I was curious about were destiny points.

For example, it seems that acquiring destiny points is very limited and would be difficult to accrue on a consistent basis. I understand that's the point, but I don't know how I'm supposed to put my players in a situation that's so epic that it would reward a destiny point or two. I want them to be able to use their epic abilities fairly often (following the once per game session rule). With epic abilities costing 3 destiny points, and destiny points coming so scarcely, when could they ever use them for their epic abilities or anything else (such as cheating death or modifying roles)? Nevermind, I found this answered on page 3.

[wiimanclassic]

Hm a geomancer can base so much off one stat. With 2 abilities his eva, geo trance uses, acc, and HP are all based off the same stat. At level 4 you could make it so they get armor and magic armor bonus from your HP also.

Are they meant to have Vit as the one stat to rule all?

NAME:Shino of the green forest.
RACE AND JOB: Elvaan Geomancer
LEVEL:2



HP:42
To calculate HP, add your VIT score with the HP/Level granted by your Job, and multiply the total by your character level. Then, add 10.

MP:0
To calculate MP, add your INT score with the MP/Level granted by your Job, and multiply the total by your character level.
Note that any Job without an MP Modifier has zero MP, regardless of INT.



ARM:
M.ARM:
EVA:10
Base ACC:5+1 racial bonus. 6



STR:7
DEX:2
VIT:10
INT:7
SPR:5
You get 30 points to spread between those 5 stats. Place between () you rating for the stat. You get 1 point in rating for every 3 points in the stats. You need at least 1 in each stat.


Weapon Name Halberd
Attack Type Reach
Accuracy 2d6+6
Damage 2d6+7
Special Properties 11-12 are crits.
Tier 1
This is determined by your weapon. I will help with this when you choose your weapon ok.


ABILITIES
Force of Nature
Geotrance
Knack-Survival Vit.
Primal Might-Vit

ARMOR AND ACCESSORY
Leather Outfit

INVENTORY(10 Items Max)
5 potions

SKILLS
Acting (SPR)2
Escape (DEX)1
Inquiry (INT / SPR)1
Negotiation (SPR)2
Perform (SPR)2
Riding (DEX / SPR)2
Survival (INT/VIT)4
Swimming (STR / DEX)2




TASK DIFFICULTY
Elementary: 5
Easy: 7
Moderate: 9
Challenging: 11
Impressive: 13
Heroic: 15
Godlike: 20
Impossible: 30
Just a point of reference for later.


EXPERIENCE AND WEALTH
EXP 0/5
Destiny
Gil Start with 500

BIO
Gender:Male
Age: 55
Weight: 130 Pounds
Birthdate:??????
Height: 6' 1"
Hometown:?????
Features:Known to be in a blue parka. Red eyes.

GOALS
#1: Protect Nature
#2: Destroy those who destroy nature.
#3: Build a eco friendly air ship.
Life Goal:Create Utopian Country that protects nature. At all costs.
Just everyday goals and 1 goal that is very hard to achieve.


LIMIT BREAKS
Name Level Description
5
15
25
PM me at level 5 for help.

[Dust]

I think one of the big changes in the next update is going to be changing the Strength attribute to Power, which represents not only might but also a summary of the character's physical offensive abilities. In this way, all weapons will run off of PWR, and concealed/ranged will get additional tweaks based on the user's DEX. It's also been canon in the FF-verse that sometimes the strongest characters are the ones that look the most physically weak.
I'm still pondering this though; it would be a big change.


Into the Fray
As much as I hate backing down after arguing a case to the contrary, I have to say that you were, in fact, correct. I spent about an hour crunching numbers; even without the free damage on a critical hit, this puts a Black Mage on par with a good melee fighter with one ability. This is getting adjusted with Mind Over Matter next revision, and I appreciate you pointing it out to me.
MY BAD.

Making their accuracy Not-Dex is a probably a good start.
Probably. :smalltongue:

Blades and Huge need actual incentive for the classes that can use them.
Blades are getting a boost. I feel Huge weapons are non-intuitive right now since their main purpose is actually LESS damage in exchange for utility, which is the opposite of what one would expect. I still want to see the Knockback property on a weapon for balance reasons, and it makes sense to be on the Huge type - I just need to figure out precisely how to work this.

.....there's literally no reason for a Dragoon to ever use anything other than a Reach weapon, none of their abilities promote using other options.
Totally true.

Note to self on an unrelated note; The Entertainer's Copycat/Master Mimic abilities can't copy destiny-spending moves. No idea how I didn't consider that. :smalleek:

[Tokugawa]

Alright, I didn't see this in the thread or in the pdf:

If a monster casts any black or white spells in combat (such as sleep or cure) with the Blue Mage being an active partcipant, does the Blue Mage learn them (assuming he has observation)?

Also, Blue Mages get to choose two spells of their choice, is this restricted only to the Blue Mage spell list? Or is it from any list? Or does it exclude the Blue spell list?

[wiimanclassic]

Blue mages only learn blue magic so no they don't learn white or black magic. Also no they can not choose from any kind other then blue at character creation.

[steelsmiter]

I feel Huge weapons are non-intuitive right now since their main purpose is actually LESS damage in exchange for utility, which is the opposite of what one would expect. I still want to see the Knockback property on a weapon for balance reasons, and it makes sense to be on the Huge type - I just need to figure out precisely how to work this.


How about Huge weapons get +1 level of damage unless they use knockback where they get normal damage?

[Tokugawa]

Alternatively you could just make the knockback effect based on a percentage chance of happening.

[Falcon777]

Yays for first post. In any case, I had a question that I believe was brought up before. Red mage's crimson seal says that it makes your spells to be standard actions instead of slow, however, it doesn't say whether it is just for the next spell or for all spells cast that round (obviously all spells that battle would be completely over powered). While at first this doesn't seem to be a problem, if you were to have haste, then you could cast two spells as both standard actions in one turn. The question would then be if you would need to use crimson seal once or twice to do so (I doubt that there would really be any balance issues with duel casting in one turn since you would just be using up your mp more quickly.) Speaking of haste, it says that it allows you to have an additional standard action on your turn (though with the 3 standard action limit still in effect), however, if I remember correctly, it doesn't say that you could have an additional slow action. Doesn't make sense to me that you could do a standard action but not a slow, so I thought I would point that out. Oh, one more thing. I think wiiman's suggestion of 1d3 for how many strikes the spell comet does would work out. With that it would allow the spell to sometimes do significantly more damage than some elemental spells and sometimes to do siginificantly less. Although this does mean that I have to find another way for my red mage to do over 10k damage in one turn..... (would have used crimson chapeu w/haste w/crimson seal w/favored spell to cast comet 7 times in one turn....ah sweet fast casting, you gotta love it).

In any case, really good job Dust. This system is incredible.

[Dust]

I'll try to come back and answer the missed questions later. Right now, it's 3am, and I'd like your opinion.


One of the things that's been recommended to me time and time again is to change how Job Abilities are formatted. I'm always receptive to these suggestions because I believe that right now there aren't enough options for lots of different character concepts, and frankly, making a character is BORING because of this. As a Gambler, there's 3, maybe 4 abilities I'd take. So I'm always striving to improve upon the Jobs, and my goal for this upcoming update is to almost double the number of options for each Job available.

The main suggestion is this; instead of having a dozen+ abilities per Job, I should just have 5-6 big categories with 3 lesser abilities in each. You'd have to take ability #1 to take ability #2, and so on. The following snippet would be what this would look like, using part of Mecharious's Chemist homebrew as an example.

http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/8894/samplekf.jpg

This, I'm told over and over, would open up ways for me to enhance current Job Abilities and combine others into a more simplistic format. Some further examples;

http://img830.imageshack.us/img830/2486/sample3j.jpg


http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/5605/sample2vq.jpg

I've been unable to make up my mind, so I'm posing the possibility to you. On the one hand, mechanically, it's a superior method. It would allow me to balance abilities better and players would be more inclined to take stuff that doesn't have any immediate minmaxing benefit to get to the stuff they DO want. It means I can include powerful job abilities as the 'third stage' of...whatever I'd call this....and it would let me balance it out by making abilities #1 and #2 slightly less amazing. It would also look more organized and be more memorable than two pages of single-entry abilities for each Job.

On the other hand, my mind recoils at the fact that whenever I see this done in any tabletop system, I automatically think of WoW talent trees. Furthermore, naming each of the categories would make it near-impossible to stay canon. Take Monk, for example; I could probably combine Shockwave, Shatter Armor, and Haymaker into a single branch of abilities (tweaking each one to make it better or worse than its current incarnation to make it fit the heiarchy), but what would I call it? Iron Fist? SUPER PUNCHY? Nothing canon, at any rate, unless I found an obscure weapon.

I don't want to present a game where White Mage has, say....HOLY, DISCIPLINE, SHADOW and SUMMONING. While I don't stay true to purely canon FF names and abilities in the book - and I dare anyone to try, yeesh - at least it follows the Final Fantasy Tactics method of picking 'powers'.

It seems like the more I struggle with balance, the further I drift from FF canon.

Anyway. Your thoughts.

[Mecharious]

In this case, I don't think it would be a huge hit to the fluff of Final Fantasy. I mean, new stuff is constantly being added to the series, you might as well add your own thematically-appropriate abilities. This new system has the advantage of allowing more powerful abilities to be included if they have heavy prerequisites, and allows more abilities to be present.

Also, this system isn't exactly copying off WoW... I'm not sure what really makes you think that. Tiered abilities are nothing new and I'm sure have been around for a long time. When you're talking about naming the overall category... well, does it really need to be canon? Iron Fist is a fine name, and, sure, it may not have been in a Final Fantasy game, but it's an umbrella category in this case, so it's not like anyone's going to say "I iron fist him."

So yeah, I'm fine with the idea.

[Naki]

This idea isn't really all that far off from canon anyway. It's very similar to the Sphere Grid, License Board, or the mechanic in XIII, as I understand it. It's not a hit to the fluff, and if it's 'trees' of 3 abilities, then it's certainly more than 3 trees each.

Having Pre-reqs for abilities is definitely a good idea. Some just don't make sense without having another ability first, and some are downright broken without something to prevent them from being taken at first level (Blue Mages, I'm lookin' at you).

The other, major, benefit, is being able to scale trees up. Powers that feel weak now can be improved upon as the tree grows, rather than trying to balance what exists. It also furthers canon builds (The Cyan build of Samurai, vs. the Mystic feel from FFT vs. the Gil Toss of V); It serves to make some classes more interesting, and balance out others that are currently sitting in a tier above (Mages are hilariously powerful. White Mages are incredible at resource management, even at level 1; Black Mages were very very strong contenders for top damage; Apparently people have beef with Time Mages...)

I like this idea, and considered implementing it myself, personally. It's a good change, and definitely helps preserve the feel of FF. Plus, there's no need to go down the 'tree' if you don't want. A generalist character can pick up all of the tree toppers and then work down as they gain levels.

The final benefit is that it's easier to homebrew for the system this way. New abilities are much easier to add as trees (having a clear theme), than a single ability.

EDIT: Playability and Balance > Canon. If you need to drift away from canon a bit, do it. Sticking to it perfectly doesn't help the game function, and hinders it instead.

[wiimanclassic]

Well other buffing a few under powered things I like how things are right now. Maybe just take the strongest abilities and tone them down then some more and have those be tiered. Prevents you from having the strongest stuff and balances out at early levels.

[Naki]

Well other buffing a few under powered things I like how things are right now. Maybe just take the strongest abilities and tone them down then some more and have those be tiered. Prevents you from having the strongest stuff and balances out at early levels.

What's the point of that? "Nerf the strong stuff and then make it harder to get, but leave the rest of it alone!"

There are aspects of the game that are inherently non-functional (the Fighter), and others that are broken (Into the Fray + Arcane weapons; Concealed Weapons + Thieves), a lot of the changes that have been proposed fix that.

You could even further create a bonus for going -down- the tiered abilities. For example, there could be the Buster Basher 'tree'. It is designed for Huge weapons (ala, the Buster Sword), it holds things like the example abilities of Braver, Double Cut, and Finishing Touch. For each step down the tree you take, you gain a +1 damage step bonus with Huge weapons. Making it more lucrative for a Fighter who's put his abilities into the Buster Basher tree to use it's signature weapon. It makes specific weapon types much more viable, and definitely solve the existing problem in that certain weapon types have little to no use for the jobs that have them. It also creates incentive to follow a tree down earlier, than cherry picking abilities from a tree to become the most powerful character.

The naming problem is easy, for the record. Steal liberally from Limit Breaks and Dissidia combat styles. Cloud's Buster Basher style makes sense, in this case, as the Fighter's Huge weapons tree.

[mint]

I get that the modern game design paradigm often associated with wow can feel oppressive. I was playing a cute iphone RPG the other day, at first I thought it had a charming talent system, it reminded me of paper mario on gamecube, much depth, little complexity. Then I started to think that a lot of the design reminded me of wow and suddenly the cute trivial game became unpalatable. And even kind of like wow. My point: I think this is a subjective thing.


If the paths are based on present abilities, name each path after the ability.
Give each step a number instead of a unique name. Counter I, II, III, IV etc.
If a particular name fits the step really well like say, hamedo you can still give the step the unique name. I think it will still look good.
When you incorporate a bunch of abilities that don't fit the step format, name the path after a combat action option from the games. The earlier the origin of the name the better. Sabin's Blitz, for example.
If you have several groupings, Blitz I, II, III, IV, ...

[Naki]

I get that the modern game design paradigm often associated with wow can feel oppressive. I was playing a cute iphone RPG the other day, at first I thought it had a charming talent system, it reminded me of paper mario on gamecube, much depth, little complexity. Then I started to think that a lot of the design reminded me of wow and suddenly the cute trivial game became unpalatable. And even kind of like wow. My point: I think this is a subjective thing.


If the paths are based on present abilities, name each path after the ability.
Give each step a number instead of a unique name. Counter I, II, III, IV etc.
If a particular name fits the step really well like say, hamedo you can still give the step the unique name. I think it will still look good.
When you incorporate a bunch of abilities that don't fit the step format, name the path after a combat action option from the games. The earlier the origin of the name the better. Sabin's Blitz, for example.
If you have several groupings, Blitz I, II, III, IV, ...

Except that it breaks immersion, frankly. Even in Canon, it has gotten away from this for that exact reason. Sabin never called out "Aurabolt V!" when he has a higher level. Just the same reason that Fire I, II, III, IV were given the suffixes of -a, -ra,-ga, and -ja. It looks cleaner, and makes sense. If verbal components are used, they just feel more correct. We know what they really mean, but we don't think about it as much.

The only instance of numbers in Canon are in Omnislash v.5 (Or v.6, in AC:Complete), and that directly refers to a developer joke, in that Omnislash was redesigned 5 times before they settled on a cinematic for it that they liked, and can easily be taken that Cloud, himself, redesigned it that many times.

The 'Oh no, trees look like WoW...!' is an unfortunate thing, but they've existed forever. Long before WoW. They're prevalent in D&D (Feat tree progression, for example), and they're a fairly common RPG element (Tales of, for example, has a usage-based ability progression system; Phantasia predates WoW by forever.) They're still used by modern games, as RPG elements slowly infect every style of gaming (Mass Effect and Dead Space use a customization system very similar to what's proposed here; Borderlands has a Character Skill tree, not even bothering to rename it.)

It's really only subjective because people wish it to be. They see "Ability Tree" and suddenly have WoW flashbacks like it was 'Nam, and they're still suffering PTSD. There's nothing wrong with this system. Just because you want to view it was 'WoW does it though!' doesn't make it suddenly less valid.

EDIT: Just to further make the 'Just because WoW does it!' as invalid: WoW does the following: Summoning demons, enslaving demons, casting magic, utilizing the Elements as a power source, utilizing demons as a power source, utilizing the Arcane as a power source, defeating corrupted beings (Illidan, Old Ones/Lovecraftian Horrors, Kael'thas/beings ruined by desire for power), defeating demons summoned from far realms, fighting undead, defeating Liches, killing masters of undeath, fighting giants, helping giants, helping trees, preserving nature, destroying nature, helping dragons, killing dragons, enslaving dragons, wars, stopping coups, reclaiming ancestral homes, defiling cities, slaughtering innocents.

That's just from actual plot within the game itself. I'm pretty sure that covers just about every game plot ever. By your 'subjective' opinion that 'because WoW did it, it's now not any fun', I should have ruined nearly every game ever. You're welcome.

EDIT2: >_> Previous edit came off as snark. Sorry. But more relatedly, another reason(s) was brought up in discussion on the number naming pattern.

It's boring, first of all. There's no interesting part of 'Blitz II!', it's just Blitz, only slightly better! Secondly, it's lazy. Blitz II could easily be "Haymaker", or "Pummel", or "Beat Rush". Just making it Blitz II means you're not actually giving a damn about the canon and what's there to use. Thirdly, and most importantly, it reflects that you're learning new ways to punch people. Names reflect this best. Blitz II just means you got better as using Blitz. Beat Rush feels like you gained some aptitude in your combos as a whole.

[mint]

Except that it breaks immersion, frankly. Even in Canon, it has gotten away from this for that exact reason. Sabin never called out "Aurabolt V!" when he has a higher level. Just the same reason that Fire I, II, III, IV were given the suffixes of -a, -ra,-ga, and -ja. It looks cleaner, and makes sense. If verbal components are used, they just feel more correct. We know what they really mean, but we don't think about it as much.



I will clarify what I meant.
In the case when a set of abilities that are to be linked don't share a cohesive naming convention but you want a name for their set:

Say there are six abilities. Let a tree contain three abilities.
The abilities have canon names.
Let Blitz I contain the set of the first three abilities.
Let Blitz II contain the set of the next three abilities.
For a more passive or cohesive tree, you call it Magic Seal I, II, III etc.
Or Counter I, II, Hamedo.

That is the general idea.




The 'Oh no, trees look like WoW...!' is an unfortunate thing, but they've existed forever. Long before WoW. They're prevalent in D&D (Feat tree progression, for example), and they're a fairly common RPG element (Tales of, for example, has a usage-based ability progression system; Phantasia predates WoW by forever.) They're still used by modern games, as RPG elements slowly infect every style of gaming (Mass Effect and Dead Space use a customization system very similar to what's proposed here; Borderlands has a Character Skill tree, not even bothering to rename it.)

It's really only subjective because people wish it to be. They see "Ability Tree" and suddenly have WoW flashbacks like it was 'Nam, and they're still suffering PTSD. There's nothing wrong with this system. Just because you want to view it was 'WoW does it though!' doesn't make it suddenly less valid.



Trees are not at issue. It is the design of the trees themselves. I'd have to think about a bit more to state clearly what that design entails. Which is kind of my point. You start seeing wow in things -> get a tinge of design claustrophobia -> but really, it is probably just in your head.
It is there because you are in a head space to find it there. Subjective. blarghh

[Falcon777]

Dang. Trees would be really sweet. As to the problem of naming, I'm honestly surprised that such a fuss has been made about it instead of people trying to come up with more abilities for each of the classes. Honestly, people, there are nineteen different classes in this game. NINETEEN!!!!! Do you know how many abilities there are in each class? If I'm not mistaken, nine per class. That makes close to two hundred different abilities. Now I do understand that not all of those abilities would have trees of their own (some would really make sense to combine) but that still leaves us with a lot of abilities to come up with. Again, I understand this problem of lack of canon names, but since this isn't an official final fantasy game, I think that a little straying from canon is to be expected (especially since most of the canon stuff should be happening from the roleplaying in game, right?). Personally, I think that finding new names for abilities would be easier than coming up with the new abilities themselves. All in all, I'm in favor of the idea of ability trees, and I'm more than willing to put in some effort to help out.

[Temotei]

Weapon names can be found here (http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Weapon_(Equipment)). Look here (http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Ability) for ability names.

You may already be using these sources; if so, just come up with your own names if they sound alright. It's not a really big deal.

[Naki]

I will clarify what I meant.
In the case when a set of abilities that are to be linked don't share a cohesive naming convention but you want a name for their set:

Say there are six abilities. Let a tree contain three abilities.
The abilities have canon names.
Let Blitz I contain the set of the first three abilities.
Let Blitz II contain the set of the next three abilities.
For a more passive or cohesive tree, you call it Magic Seal I, II, III etc.
Or Counter I, II, Hamedo.

That is the general idea.

Ah, I see. I'm still not so sure about that, but eh.

On that, I thought about my above suggestion for 'following trees', and realized that it's probably not the best way, but rather to grant secondary bonuses to some abilities if weapon types are used. I sat down, and thought about it, and came up with 2 example trees: Swordplay and Basher. Based on Tidus and Cloud, respectively; I also considered a new method of making attacks stand out, and dropping the percentages effectively, using the Damage Step.

Swordplay

Quick Hit (1) - You make a normal attack, as an Instant action on your turn, once per round. This attack deals -1 damage step, and cannot trigger limit breaks.
While equipped with a single Blade-type weapon, you deal +1 damage step with all attack actions.
[i]Double-Cut [Standard, Single] (2) - You make two normal attacks against a single target. If successful, these attacks deal deal half damage each, but may apply any weapon abilities once for each successful attack. Each attack may become a critical, but cannot trigger a limit break. You may use this once per turn, no matter how many standard actions you have.
If you use a single Blade-type weapon when making this attack, you deal normal damage per attack, instead of half.
Mirror Movement [Passive] (3) - You gain an additional standard action per turn (up to the normal maximum of 3).
Additionally, you may use Double-Cut a second time in a turn, but no more than twice per turn.


As a quick breakdown, I didn't use the "X times per session" because I don't like the mechanic, personally. I understand it's a balancing factor, but it's also not canon, and makes less sense as you follow trees down. The fact that Ability 1 can be used as many times as Ability 3 doesn't really work, especially if Ability 3 is twice as powerful! Magic-based attacks (Swordskills on the DK, for example) should really have an MP cost, balancing it's cost against the effect gained. Instead, I balanced them against normal attacks given that none of these can ever trigger limit breaks. Meaning, if you want to use one and spam these attacks, you have to spend precious Destiny. That's a big opportunity cost, in my opinion. Stealth-edit: It was pointed out that I missed the secondary point of "Session Length", this is variable, and largely unquantifiable. On a table, or live-gaming (IRC, Maptools, etc), it's easy to determine the end of a session, but it also provides a metagame break, wherein "How much longer do I have until the end of the session? Should I use up all of my powers before then as not to waste?"; however, in the case of PbP Sessions don't exist. The game simply doesn't have an nightly 'end point', as shown in previous posts, such as the KH game defining a session as "A full world." Abilities need discrete, consistant boundaries on usage. "Session" is not consistant enough. Look at Scenes, from Storyteller. They're clearly within the intent, and much more easily defined.

Quick Hit is the Fighter's upgrade of the Freelancer's version. It reduces the damage step by one, meaning Concealed, Huge and Reach all deal 2d6 at tier 1, and one step lower in all other tiers, whereas Blades will deal normal damage. Double Cut, as continuing down the Blades tree, offers up the bonus of being able to apply two status effects, or rather, two chances to apply any effects. Which increases the likelihood of application greatly. It's a good trade off for damage, and matches a normal attack. Unless you're continuing down the Blades path and using it's appropriate weapon. In which it's a significant damage increase, with the same trade off: No limit triggering. It's useful at high HP, and less so at lower HP. Mirror Movement is straight from Tidus, and is the Caladbolg Equipped Dissidia effect from his EX-mode. Essentially, Auto-Haste. It's a great effect, and it ends the tree with giving the Fighter access to Cyan's Quadra-Slice/Slam ability (In essence). The tree, as whole, is cohesive, it's canon, and if offers obvious benefits for the Fighter to use a single weapon.

And now:

Basher

Braver [Slow, Single] (1) - Make a normal attack action. If successful, deal normal damage, and +1 extra Damage Steps. This ability cannot trigger limit breaks, but may become a critical hit as normal. If used with a Huge weapon, increase the extra damage by 1.
Rend [Passive] (2) - All single-target, normal attack actions with a Huge weapon ignore half of the target's ARM.
Finishing Touch [Slow, Single] (3) - Make a normal attack action. If successful, deal normal damage, and +2 extra damage steps, and cause a short range Knockback. If using a Huge-type weapon, the knockback effect is, instead, medium range, and the extra damage step is increased by 1.
Additionally, while equipped with a Huge-type weapon, you deal +1 damage step on all attack actions.


Basher is clearly the heavy-damage tree, using the Huge weapon. It's damage is best early-game, rather than late (Braver is 300% damage at Tier 1, at Legendary, it's only 125%; Finishing Touch is 150 at Legendary, and 400% at Tier 1), but it scales better with stats, and other Damage Step abilities (Trauma). It also introduces a different way to handle abilities with damage increases. It's also more effective, as it effects the raw stats, rather than the damage as a whole, making it easier to track. Braver, with a Huge weapon, always does (PWRx3)+2d6 at Tier 1, and scales appropriately. This is better than ((PWRx1)+2d6)*2, which makes higher tier weapons insanely powerful (Legendaries deal PWRx16 on Wild Swing! x24 if it crits. D: )

Rend is the passive bonus for going up the tree. It has one, considerably powerful effect: 1/2 ARM on attacks, provided you hit a single target. That's a pretty good reason for Fighters to use Huge weapons, and something no one else can match. It does, however, offer nothing to non-Huge wielders, which I'm not satisfied with. A dead ability is bad, especially considering Finishing Touch has benefits for being used with Huge weapons. FT also has the same benefits as braver, being useful early, and less powerful later. Which I can live with, due to it having the secondary effect of +1 for Huge.

It makes Basher, like Swordplay, a complete, concise and canon tree for the Fighter utilizing Huge weapons. It offers clear bonuses for Huge weapon users, and at the same time, is still mostly functional (Rend.... >_>) for non-Huge weapon users.

These are just example trees, and not actual suggestions. Perhaps, best for thought, and how to treat tress for all jobs. Relatedly: Some abilities currently are best treated as solo-effects, and cannot be easily grouped (High Jump, Into the Fray, Mind Over Matter), don't create a treat around them. It serves to weaken them, and like Elemental Seal, isn't worth spending 3 abilities on for limited usage.

[Dust]

Lots to think about there, Naki/everyone, and much obliged.

[steelsmiter]

I'll make a note here that I think with the change from STR to PWR (since the post by Naki reminded me of it) should only affect damage and not accuracy, unless that was already the case in which case I should be ignored :smallbiggrin:

[Temotei]

The only instance of numbers in Canon are in Omnislash v.5 (Or v.6, in AC:Complete)...

In Final Fantasy VII, spells were Fire, Fire2, and Fire3, Ice, Ice2, and Ice3, Bolt, Bolt2, and Bolt3, Comet and Comet2, Life and Life2, etc.

[Naki]

In Final Fantasy VII, spells were Fire, Fire2, and Fire3, Ice, Ice2, and Ice3, Bolt, Bolt2, and Bolt3, Comet and Comet2, Life and Life2, etc.

And are -a, -ga, -ja in the Japanese. All future updates to pre VII games have fixed this. Crisis Core, and DoC both use this format. The only reason VII still has it legacy, and the fact that it has not seen an update yet.

EDIT: To solve the secondary problem would come up here: Life 2 would have a different name. Likely "Arise", and Comet2 would likely need a different name entirely, due to it's natural successor (Meteor) being a planetary threat in VII.

EDIT2: Before Crisis made Comet2 into Cometeo. Proving my point....

[Tokugawa]

I don't mind having multiple levels of spells (such as fire 1,2,3 or -a, -ga, -ja) but please don't make the job abilities follow this format. I really enjoy the fact that in FFd6 there aren't any progress ability systems, unless the player chooses to make that ability more powerful; I.E. Black Mage takings specialization multiple times. It's nice to have chosen a job ability and be done with it. Having multiple levels means its potential diminishes as the characters grow stronger and encounters become more difficult.

Skill trees are a nice touch and wouldn't mind these at all. They don't force players to spend multiple points in the same skill, rather it allows them to specialize in key areas or to diversify as they see fit.

[wiimanclassic]

I noticed on the level up part of the manual it says at level 10 you get a new trait. But it is never explained what a trait is. Anyone know?

[Mecharious]

That was removed in the new version.

[Dust]

Still churning away at this. Next big version in about a month or so.

Big changes;
- Abilities now follow the three-step method as discussed previously. This has led to a restructuring and tweaking of every ability currently in the system, and the addition of lots more.
- The base attributes are now Power (PWR), Resolve (RES), Dexterity (DEX) and Mind (MND), and each one is important for aspects of every job class.
- Further streamlining of the rules so things stay intuitive and fast-paced.
- Fixes for all the problems discussed previously, as well as the incorporation of a handful of Homebrew.

[Naki]

- The base attributes are now Power (PWR), Resolve (RES), Dexterity (DEX) and Mind (MND), and each one is important for aspects of every job class.


Can we get a preview of how this is going to work? How does Resolve and Mind effect a Fighter, for example? If it's still ability uses/session, Passives continue to be the reigning king, and they'll still be largely ignored, I would imagine.

[steelsmiter]

say are skills based on your starting INT or current INT? current would make calcs easier...

also... I really liked the 5 attribute system... oh well, can't have everything.

[Con_Brio1993]

If I wanted to make a "quirky mini boss squad" to fight the players should I still use the Monster creator, or should I just use the standard character builder? Monster creator doesn't seem to allow for jobs, and I'd want the mini boss squad to have jobs that rivaled my players jobs (ie. The party is Pali/Black Mage/Geomancer, the mbs would be Dark Knight/White Mage/Engineer).

Also I sent this in pm to Dust, but I might as well ask it here.

My understanding of Jump is that, unlike other slow actions it starts on the turn it is used, and then resolves on the next turn. One of my players abused this last night by jumping one turn, landing the next, attacking as an instant action, and then jumping. The Dragoon, being immune to everything but group spells, is practically invincible unless I pit the group against some high leveled mages.

I'm going to assume I am misreading the spell. Does the physical jump itself act as a slow action?

Basically Jump would either be

1. Player declares they are using Jump. They jump into the air.
2. Enemies go.
3. Player lands, attacks, then jumps.

or

1. Player declared they are using Jump.
2. Enemies go.
3. Player jumps into the air.
4. Enemies go.
5. Player lands and attacks.

Or is it neither of those?

[Naki]

If I wanted to make a "quirky mini boss squad" to fight the players should I still use the Monster creator, or should I just use the standard character builder? Monster creator doesn't seem to allow for jobs, and I'd want the mini boss squad to have jobs that rivaled my players jobs (ie. The party is Pali/Black Mage/Geomancer, the mbs would be Dark Knight/White Mage/Engineer).

Also I sent this in pm to Dust, but I might as well ask it here.

My understanding of Jump is that, unlike other slow actions it starts on the turn it is used, and then resolves on the next turn. One of my players abused this last night by jumping one turn, landing the next, attacking as an instant action, and then jumping. The Dragoon, being immune to everything but group spells, is practically invincible unless I pit the group against some high leveled mages.

I'm going to assume I am misreading the spell. Does the physical jump itself act as a slow action?

Basically Jump would either be

1. Player declares they are using Jump. They jump into the air.
2. Enemies go.
3. Player lands, attacks, then jumps.

or

1. Player declared they are using Jump.
2. Enemies go.
3. Player jumps into the air.
4. Enemies go.
5. Player lands and attacks.

Or is it neither of those?

It's the former. However, he's not invincible. Make use of the Group targeting feature (of any range, thanks to Jump's poor wording. Short range group attacks, ho! Watch your players headdesk in frustration as you try to justify it!), and watch him take damage with the party. Jump has many other obvious downsides, in that it doesn't auto-hit. It doesn't crit, and it definitely cannot trigger limit breaks. While he's avoiding that damage, he's also not making up for the slack of missed opportunities.

EDIT: I missed that you did point out the group targeting; however, it's not really limited to high level mages. Anything that group targets can do it.

As for your first question, I haven't looked too much into monster creation, as of yet, but I believe they can gain job abilities. Create a monster with Paladin abilities, or White Magic shouldn't be too hard. Even if it isn't possible, it's always possible to create abilities that function the same way (if not entirely counter-intuitive).

[Con_Brio1993]

It's the former. However, he's not invincible. Make use of the Group targeting feature (of any range, thanks to Jump's poor wording. Short range group attacks, ho! Watch your players headdesk in frustration as you try to justify it!), and watch him take damage with the party. Jump has many other obvious downsides, in that it doesn't auto-hit. It doesn't crit, and it definitely cannot trigger limit breaks. While he's avoiding that damage, he's also not making up for the slack of missed opportunities.

Not too many blue spells are group attacks though, and it seems odd that every enemy would have a group attack. Meanwhile there is a thief in my party who is pretty much min maxed meaning that most group attacks are going to miss the party.

Also he has high jump and would be at Long Range. So wouldn't only Ranged group attacks be able to hit him? And they'd take a -4 Acc penalty, right?

[wiimanclassic]

I say use rule 0 and declare no jumping the same turn you land.


BTW Wrote a small guide to using FFd6 for those wanting to use it elsewhere.


Ok you may be wondering what FFD6 is. Its a system to use for RPs to add a little more realism, realism in that you can't just say you hit with every attack.

Now the download link is right here.
(insert link)
Now for an explanation for how to build an FFd6 character. You just need to first pick a race found in chapter 2, pick a job from chapter 3, then assign your attribute points.Your point total is equal to 29+your level. You receive an attribute point at every level and should the one running the game let you at every level thats a multiple of 3.

For every 3 points you put in an attribute 1 point goes in its rating. Your rating determines how many points you can put in a skill. Your rating +1 is the max for skills using that stat. For ones using multiple ones use the higher. For example the Acting skill. It uses spirit(spr) to determine its max. If you have 12 spirit you have a rating of 4. That means you can have 5 in your acting.

Characters receive one skill point at each level up. At the start of the game, a newly-created character receives the number of skill points listed by their job, as well as an additional +1 for every point of INT they possesses. I kinda forgot this part before... You can find a jobs amount of skill points on its page in the manual.


Next you need to figure out your HP and MP(if you use MP). The sheet I give has how to find it.
After that your evasion(eva) and accuracy(acc). Check your class page.

Then your armor and magic armor. Based on if you use light medium or heavy. Sheet has short info on it.

Now you just need to pick your abilities. The page right after your class page has your ability list. Chapter 4 has the shared abilities anyone can use. Make sure to add your epic and innate abilities to your sheet then add 2 more from the parts I mentioned. To use your epic you must spend 3 points of destiny. Destiny is earned by beating bosses, completing goals and other important things.


If you use magic now is the time to pick it. You gain spells based on a chart like this one.

Spell Rank.....Level
1................1, 1, 3, 4, 5
2................6, 8, 10, 12
3................14, 16, 19
4.................21, 24, 27
5.................28, 30

That is a time mages spell progression. You gain a spell of the listed rank(1-5) at every level listed. So at level 1 you gain 2 rank 1 spells. Check the class page for other classes progression.

In a fight you roll 2d6+ ether your strength,dex,int or spirit based on your weapon. Bladed(swords and such), Huge(buster swords and other overly large things), Reach(spears,chains, and whips), Brawl(fists and blunt weapons) and Arcane(staffs, staves, and stuff) when not using its special ability use strength. Concealed(knives, daggers, and such), Ranged(guns, bows, and stuff) use dex.


Now on weapon special abilities.
Bladed weapons can use Piercing Strike once per session(ask your DM about how long a session is) which lets it ignore the enemies armor.

Arcane have Imbued and can use Int or Spr to attack but do half damage. If it crits they can cast a free spell instantly.

Ranged can just hit at mid range or at long at -4 penalty.

Huge can use Heavy Swing leting you do half damage but knock the target back a short distance.(knock back disrupts spell casting and other slow actions)

Concealed have Sneak Attack allowing your first attack in a battle to do an additional damage step and can reroll if they miss that first attack. (damage step is equal to a weapons a tier. You multiply the stat used for damage by the damage step.)

Reach have Critical Attack making it so they crit on a combined die result of 11 or 12 instead of 12(more likely to crit)

Brawl have Counter Attack letting you counter attack when hit from short range..no you can't counter a counter, a counter can't be a limit break and you can't counter magic.


You can tell if you hit by using your characters Acc+2d6. If the result is equal to or more then your enemies eva you hit. For example lets say I have 10 strength and 5 acc and attack an enemy with 10 evasion.
(insert result of 15) This is my attack roll. Subtract the difference between your strength(or dex or what ever was used) and acc. If that ammount is equal to or higher then the mosters eva you hit.

I would need for example a 15 to hit. 10-5 is 5. So I would need to roll at least a total of 5. Therefore 15.

The enemies attacking you works the same.
Magic auto hits.

The DM is who ever is running the RP.

Example Sheet
NAME:
RACE AND JOB:
LEVEL:



HP:
To calculate HP, add your VIT score with the HP/Level granted by your Job(humes add 3 to this), and multiply the total by your character level. Then, add 10.

MP:
To calculate MP, add your INT score with the MP/Level granted by your Job, and multiply the total by your character level.
Note that any Job without an MP Modifier has zero MP, regardless of INT.



ARM:
M.ARM:
EVA:
Your job page says how to find it.
Base ACC:
See eva.

Attributes
STR:
DEX:
VIT:
INT:
SPR:



Weapon Name
Attack Type
Accuracy
Damage
Special Properties
Tier


ABILITIES



ARMOR AND ACCESSORY
Will start with Cotton Robe(light armor. 2 arm 6 m arm), Leather Outfit(medium 4 arm and m arm, or Chain Vest(heavy. 6 arm, 2 marm.)
INVENTORY(10 Items Max)


SKILLS
Athletics (DEX)
Acting (SPR)
Awareness (INT)
Disguise (SPR / INT)
Escape (DEX)
Healing (INT)
Inquiry (INT / SPR)
Language (INT)
Lore: ______ (INT)
Lore: ______ (INT)
Negotiation (SPR)
Perform (SPR)
Riding (DEX / SPR)
Stealth (DEX)
Survival (INT)
Swimming (STR / DEX)
Synthesis: ______ (INT)
Systems (INT)
Thievery (DEX)
Trade (SPR)
Vehicles (DEX)




TASK DIFFICULTY
Elementary: 5
Easy: 7
Moderate: 9
Challenging: 11
Impressive: 13
Heroic: 15
Godlike: 20
Impossible: 30
Just a point of reference for later.


EXPERIENCE AND WEALTH
EXP
Destiny You earn this by completing your goals and doing things the DM deem good enough to get it.
Gil Start with how ever much the DM says.

BIO
Gender:
Age:
Weight:
Birthdate:
Height:
Hometown:
Features:

GOALS
#1:
#2:
#3:
Life Goal:
Just everyday goals and 1 goal that is very hard to achieve.


LIMIT BREAKS
Name Level Description
5
15
25
PM me at level 5 for help.


MAGIC
Name (example, Fire)
Rank (1)
MP Cost (6)
Description (A small ball of fire hits them...this part is optional. Just put how much damage it can do.)

Go to chapter 7 if your a class with magic.

[Naki]

Not too many blue spells are group attacks though, and it seems odd that every enemy would have a group attack. Meanwhile there is a thief in my party who is pretty much min maxed meaning that most group attacks are going to miss the party.

Also he has high jump and would be at Long Range. So wouldn't only Ranged group attacks be able to hit him? And they'd take a -4 Acc penalty, right?

Alas, Group Comp has you screwed. They'll steamroll encounters forever, thanks to the Thief being broken as-is, and Jump's invulnerability.

The height of the Jump, by RAW, doesn't matter. Short Range Group limits can knock a Dragoon out of the air. Makes sense? Not really. It's been pointed out over and over that Jump is somewhere between "Hilariously useless" or "Incredibly overpowered". A Provoke Dragoon will never use Jump, because it's terrible and offers 0 benefit to them, whereas, in your case, you have a Thief who basically has granted the party invincibility to Group attacks, and thus, Jump is the bestest ability ever!

All I can say is sigh and bear with it until Dust churns out the next update and all of these things are (hopefully) fixed.

[Con_Brio1993]

Alas, Group Comp has you screwed. They'll steamroll encounters forever, thanks to the Thief being broken as-is, and Jump's invulnerability.

You have a Thief who basically has granted the party invincibility to Group attacks, and thus, Jump is the bestest ability ever!

:smallfrown:

Well in that case I'll use Rule Zero. I hate pulling the rule, especially when I am using it to alter existing abilities, but saving the campaign comes first.

Thanks for the help.

[wiimanclassic]

:smallfrown:

Well in that case I'll use Rule Zero. I hate pulling the rule, especially when I am using it to alter existing abilities, but saving the campaign comes first.

Thanks for the help.

Think of it this way, dust will hopely make it work that way. So its not so much rule 0 as preemptive rule change.

[Ragingsystem]

I must say I am looking forward to the update. I will probably run a campaign with some friends once it's out.

[Dust]

As mentioned in the PM, you're definitely going to have to rule-zero it. Sorry 'bout that, and hope things work out.

[wiimanclassic]

hm....killer bee

*Stinger, 2 ACC, 8+2d6 damage, Inflicts poison, user takes
32+2d6 damage
Da hell. Instakill.....wait. NVM. I miss read it. Hehe suicide poison.

[steelsmiter]

hm....killer bee

*Stinger, 2 ACC, 8+2d6 damage, Inflicts poison, user takes
32+2d6 damage
Da hell. Instakill.....wait. NVM. I miss read it. Hehe suicide poison.

actually it's not a poison why the user takes the damage it's the fact that the stinger coming out disembowels the bee...

[wiimanclassic]

I know. It commits suicide to poison YOU.

[Con_Brio1993]

Does being inflicted with Seal cancel your epic (if you have an epic that lasts multiple turns such as the Dark Knight, Dragoon, Paladin, or Entertainer)?

[steelsmiter]

Does being inflicted with Seal cancel your epic (if you have an epic that lasts multiple turns such as the Dark Knight, Dragoon, Paladin, or Entertainer)?

wow that would suck, I hope the answer's no...

[Ragingsystem]

I ran a game using this system over the weekend and I must say it was the most fun I've ever had GMing a game and all of my players loved it!

FFd6 is now my favorite system and I definitely can't wait to see the updated version. I'll be a follower of this system for now on and if it ever becomes a system that costs money I will make sure to buy it!

[Kobold-Bard]

I ran a game using this system over the weekend and I must say it was the most fun I've ever had GMing a game and all of my players loved it!

FFd6 is now my favorite system and I definitely can't wait to see the updated version. I'll be a follower of this system for now on and if it ever becomes a system that costs money I will make sure to buy it!

Then Dust will be sued into obvlivion I would imagine. Square seem like the type of company that disapprove of that sort of thing.

[Dust]

Even if I could sell a game book without copyright issues, I'm not the type to. There's homebrew D&D classes out there better than anything Wizards could pump out, and the gaming community really is based heavily off creative give-and-take. This is just me giving something back. Heck, being told people PLAY with this thing I made is more than I was expecting. :smallbiggrin:

Seal doesn't shut down Epic Abilities (page 17), but I'll make sure I specify that in the status condition section, too.

[Ragingsystem]

you know I enjoyed it so much I forgot it was based on something entirely! ha ha ha anyway great job I love the game.

[wiimanclassic]

So an android blue mages assimilates parts of monsters to learn blue magic?


Half Machine, Half Monster monstrosity GO!

[Blisstake]

For some reason the outdated thead is ahead of this one. Let me remedy that...

[wiimanclassic]

......well my android has had his back story expanded. His synth flesh might not be fake. Hell the only reason he isn't a monster just slaughtering things around him is the humans and other things he has absorbed(don't ask) and just kinda gained a true intelligence from said peoples minds.



God damn it hes turned into a robot Alex Mercer.

[Deathdarken]

when is the new system going to be up or did i miss the post for it?

[Akabana_Shin]

Dust, you have an amazing system here. Can't wait to try it out.

By the way, if I may give my opinion on your later ideas, I don't see the problem with the names. Taking into account the large number of jobs in FFV and all the Tactics game, you could easily name some of the trees as jobs, depending on their main focus. It may not work for all clases (for example, it may not work in the case of Black Mage or White Mage), but it may work for others (for example, the Red Mage could have a Sage tree; a Fighter could have a Knight tree, a Soldier tree and a Gladiator tree). Or things like that. Just a small suggestion. Really, don't worry too much for names. Even if there weren't plenty of them, a good playability is better than fancy canon names.

[Dust]

As mentioned in a few PMs already, been swamped with college recently - after 8 hours a day of doing flash animation, the last thing I manage to get done is more typing. Won't be many updates anytime soon.

[wiimanclassic]

Hm....does a blue mages claws and teeth from mutation beast give counter attack like a normal brawl weapon.