OOTS #788 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Doompuppy]

Oh, lovable lovable violent Thog.

[fretgod99]

Haha, that was excellent. I appreciate the fan-favorite commentary.

[anamiac]

They need to tell Tarquin that Nale is still alive, and that their previous assumptions about his death were wrong.

They do not want Tarquin to find out that Nale is alive, and then assume that they lied to him on purpose, or that they are in league with Nale.

[PseudoPserious]

Nice little dig at the Thog fans in panel 5 :smallsmile:

PP

[SquirrelKing]

Awesome Thog is awesome!

And now to try and explain to my coworkers why I was cackling like a lunatic. Thanks Giant. :smallamused:

[HUMVEE Driver]

First off, page in a message to Tarquin that Nale is still alive. Great follow up!

[Giggling Ghast]

I think Thog is pretty hilarious, but he still needs to go down.

KICK HIS ASS, ROY!

[Mordokai]

I facepalmed.

[Zevox]

Okay, now this was a great comedic strip. My favorites:

"It's weird, no matter how many people he kills, the audience still finds him lovable."

"actually, thog hazy on that, did thog kill them off-panel?"

So much funny. Welcome back Thog, your presence is quite welcome. :smallbiggrin:

Zevox

[Haggis]

"It featured non-traditional panel layout."

Perhaps my new favorite bit of 4th wall breaking.

[TheSummoner]

Panel 3... "Clonk"? Wow, Thog's skull is thicker than I thought :smallbiggrin:

[Branco]

Wow thog doesnt even care he got hit with a sword on his head. Brabarians got to much hitpoints i tell you

[turkishvan2]

That jab at thog fans (like myself) was great, and Thog's "Shucks" at the end just made my day.

[dextercorvia]

Thog likes talky man.

[Kaeso]

Oh yeah, this is the thog we know and love.

Keep up the good work, Giant!

[pendell]

*Applauds madly*

Get 'em Roy!

And now Tarquin explains how Thog came to be there. Hmmm ... is this one of Nale's cunning plans? Or did they simply abandon Thog?

My money is on the first.

Giant ... YOU GAVE US BACK THOG! THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU

Yeah, you could very well kill him off. I'm good with that. I trust you to give this character a good death, if that is in the cards.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Nimrod's Son]

I love how Thog can say "relationship status", but not "me" or "you". :smallamused:

[KuH]

I notice that Roy seems to be setting up for a great power attack in the last panel. Will it complete at the start of the next strip? The suspense, the suspense ...

[Lateral]

Yeah, I'm glad Thog's back. Go, Thog. :thog:

[ricorum]

Shucks.
Best ending.

[Pronounceable]

It's weird, no matter how many people he kills, the audience still thinks he's lovable.
Tarquin has common sense too!

[RunicLGB]

I notice that Roy seems to be setting up for a great power attack in the last panel. Will it complete at the start of the next strip? The suspense, the suspense ...

I'mm pretty sure he was well geared for a power attack in the third panel too, and all that did was "CLONK".

Seriously is he still waving around a woden sword that was just spraypainted silver?

[CoffeeIncluded]

Oooooh, this is gonna be good! And yes, :thog: is definitely a crowd favorite. :smallbiggrin:

[Mordaenor]

THOG-DOR the ORCinator!!

.... too much?

[Scarlet Knight]

Thank the 12 gods! All these cheap Thog knock offs! We finally have the real thing: the comedy gold that is THOG!


Wait, now how will it end, since neither can die without causing an uproar among the readers?:thog::roy:

[Mando Knight]

talky-man and thog banter good for comedy. :thog:

[Somewhere]

:thog:tastic circuses are more profitable than un-circus-y treason resolution.

[GFawkes]

Panel 3... "Clonk"? Wow, Thog's skull is thicker than I thought :smallbiggrin:

I was under the impression that Thog's skull was solid.

[Lateral]

THOG-DOR the ORCinator!!

.... too much?

Too much.

[RadioElectric]

I was under the impression that Thog's skull was solid.

He seems a bit smarter now than he was. Maybe he's invested in some INT points since we last saw him.

[SmaugTheYounger]

So funny. So sad.

I'm with the crowd, I guess. Rooting for the brutal, bloodthirsty, sunny-minded murderer. So wrong. But still...

Sigh. Yeah. He's got to go. Once again, I'm dying for the next strip.

[factotum]

Hold on. How come Roy suddenly knows about the Earth fairy Thog killed? He certainly didn't notice it at the time, and Celia was somewhere else entirely so it seems unlikely she told him...:smallconfused:

[Orzel]

Great

Now my desk is sprinkled with Dr. Pepper and I need a new shirt.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Thog is so funny. :smallbiggrin:

[Nimrod's Son]

Maybe it's not Thog at all! Maybe it's his father, also called Thog, and with all of Thog's memories somehow implanted into his brain!

[Blade206]

Wow thog doesnt even care he got hit with a sword on his head. Brabarians got to much hitpoints i tell you

Not to mention their damage reduction, which likely played a slight role in it.

[SPoD]

Hold on. How come Roy suddenly knows about the Earth fairy Thog killed? He certainly didn't notice it at the time, and Celia was somewhere else entirely so it seems unlikely she told him...:smallconfused:

One of the bonus strips in Dungeon Crawlin' Fools shows Celia bringing Thog to the jail that Sabine later sprung him from (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0120.html). In it, Thog confesses to killing the Earth Fairy in front of her. She then could have told Roy about it at any time that they were together.

[the_tick_rules]

Roy was expecting different from Thog?

[SirGalrim]

*snicker* Funniest in a long while. :-) Very witty. Not that previous has been bad in any way. ;-)

[Belsirk]

Wow... Roy it's truly anger... Thog going to have a very very very bad day

And the jokes about 4th wall... GREAT!

"it's wird, no matter how many people he kills the audience still thinks he's lovable" <-- Many fans will be anger with that statment :smalltongue:

[HalfTangible]

Roy was expecting different from Thog?

Roy might've found it infuriating A) because of Xykon and B) because Thog remembers very selective things about his deeds, and Roy's ticked that he misses the point.

[Somewhere]

I dunno about anger. Heck, the more :thog: murders in his :thog:tastic way, the more I like him.

[JonestheSpy]

Wow. Serious-minded Lawful Good Grownup Banters with Clueless, Child-like ( And 4th Wall Breaking) Mass Murderer = Great Comedy.

[JSSheridan]

FIGHT!

Thanks Giant!

By the way, the dust effect is a nice touch.

[Gray Mage]

That's classic :thog:

Also, does Tarquin saying that Thog "did" work for Nale means that Nale ditched Thog? Or is it just me being influenciated by the amount of epileptic trees that came true lately?

Also wondering if Malack knows about Thog being in the arena.

[StyxMotors]

Tarquin has common sense too!
While I feel slightly guilty at enjoying Thog's screen-time, I feel that RB has made the chaotic-evil mass-murderer lovable enough for the fandom to be placed. And, as cnsvnc intimates, Tarquin and RB share something in common - they give the masses their Thog.

And, also, wow Thog's ability to shrug off punishment is intense. I wonder if you need an INT higher than 3 to feel pain?

I'd love to see Thog against O-Chul, except that the fight may go on for centuries.

[iTookUrNick]

Greeeeeeeeeeeat! All around comedy gold, best in a while. Not to mention the suspanse!

Can't wait for next strip.

[Irbis]

'Thog hazy on that'. 'Off panel'.

Classic :smallbiggrin:

[faustin]

Is it just me or Thog´ speeches seem ... smarter than usual? :smallconfused:
He is practically laughing in Roy´s face

[Falconer]

"No matter how many people he kills, the audience still thinks he's lovable."

Well played, Giant. Well played.:smalltongue:

[Gift Jeraff]

Awesome. Hilariously awesome.

Thog seems (very) slightly smarter (using articles without reciting lyrics), but just as funny as always.


That's classic :thog:

Also, does Tarquin saying that Thog "did" work for Nale means that Nale ditched Thog?
Tarquin seems to be unaware that Nale kept Thog around long enough for the Order to meet him.

[blazingshadow]

i wonder if thog is being fed enough icecream. that could be the deciding factor in who wins the fight

[Darth Hunterix]

:roy: ROY.... SMASHES!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Kyeudo]

Go Thog! Go Talky-Man!

[herrhauptmann]

Also, does Tarquin saying that Thog "did" work for Nale means that Nale ditched Thog? Or is it just me being influenciated by the amount of epileptic trees that came true lately?

Also wondering if Malack knows about Thog being in the arena.

I think Tarquin assumes that Nale and Thog stopped workign together before Nale died in an exploding castle almost a year ago. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0720.html)
Malack probably knows, being allied to the secret dictator of a third of a continent has its perks.

edit:
Last panel, thog doesn't seem quite as happy as he was previously. Sure Roy was knocking him around, but Thog seemed intent on talking, not fighting. Now that he seems a little annoyed/disappointed, he's probably going to fight for real.
Last time those two tangled, Roy had a slight advantage, using weapon specialization (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0064.html). But now that's probably been fully negated using Thogs DR. So we're sorta stuck now. Whose build is more optimized? Roy's feats? Or Thogs far fewer feats + Rage?

[KingFlameHawk]

This is an awesome comic. I'm a Thog fan and I love the shout out as to why he is popular dispite his killing of people. I also love how Roy is gettting so worked up about fighting Thog but Thog is just treating it like a pleasent comversation between two friends who were reunited:

:thog:"thog thankful for update on talky-man's relationship status"

This is why he is so popular.

[TheOasysMaster]

You know, I always used to think Thog was lovable in a dumb kinda way, and he just did bad things because he didn't kow any better. I thought with some guidance, he could even be good.
But now...
I think he's just dumb and mean.
:smallfrown:

[DreadArchon]

Wonderful update. Excellent! :thog::roy:

(And :nale: , sadly. :smalleek: )

Edit: Thog's comment about "talky-man's relationship status" seems sinister to me. I can definitely imagine Nale using that against the party. :smallfrown:

[Toper]

Is it just me or Thog´ speeches seem more... smart than usual? :smallconfused:
He is practically laughing in Roy´s face
Yeah, I thought so too. I think it's the large number of ideas and conversation topics that he brings up on his own initiative. Bad grammar isn't enough to make him seem dumb when he's basically engaging in witty repartee about panel layouts and relationship status updates. He was more lovable when between murders he only thought about puppies and ice cream.

edit: Tarquin's remark is pretty priceless, though.

[otakufan]

Ahh... I have missed :thog: so very much. :smallbiggrin:

[olthar]

If this is the giant's way of trying to kill of Thog while keeping those who love him regardless of the "no matter how many people he kills the audience seems to love him" effect, then I think it will fail.

Thog has reached new heights of awesome and now needs his own spinoff.


"order of Stick too small for thog. thog need own comic where thog kill things then eat ice cream."

[MammonAzrael]

Hahaha...love it!

As for the "Clunk" noise of Roy's first attack, it makes me think he isn't wielding an actual sword. Thog's DR will negate a little of the damage, but if you look at later panels there is no wound. It seems like Roy's attack dealt nonlethal damage. Also, I hope Roy can manage when Thog enters Rage, considering that neither has really landed any convincing blows yet.

[ThePhantasm]

I sensed a little commentary in this strip on the GITP forum's love of Thog. . .

[Ridureyu]

Time to repeat:

If Thog dies, there will be a deluge of posts condemning Roy - likely worse than the whole Miko debacle.

It would happen even if we got cutaway panels of Thog eating babies and molesting squirrels.

[Antacid]

One of the best strips for a while. Tarquin's fourth-wall painting re. Thong's popularity was hilarious.

[Killer Angel]

I sensed a little commentary in this strip on the GITP forum's love of Thog. . .

I think we can take it for granted. :smallbiggrin:

[ThePhantasm]

Time to repeat:

If Thog dies, there will be a deluge of posts condemning Roy - likely worse than the whole Miko debacle.

It would happen even if we got cutaway panels of Thog eating babies and molesting squirrels.

I know that I, for one, want Roy to kill Thog. I think it makes the most sense for the story. But we'll see what happens.

[JaxGaret]

Thank you again, Rich, for always bringing the funny as well as doing thought-provoking devices with this comic such as this meta-commentary.

In before "this should be in the strip discussion thread" or "it's really not that thought-provoking".

No, it shouldn't, and yes, it is.

[Dangerous Rex]

'thog says, "fudge the police!"'

Sheer brilliance.

[Kurald Galain]

Thog is awesome!

Also, I just realized that the non-traditional panel layout really is the last time he saw Roy...

[KingFlameHawk]

Thog is awesome!

Also, I just realized that the non-traditional panel layout really is the last time he saw Roy...

Actually Thog and Roy had a one on one battle not long after that and was captured so that was the last time he really saw him.

Edit: Actually it was when Roy captured Thog after Nale framed Elan in the hotel room.

[TriForce]

i loved that line, its like a "take that" to everyone who considers thog not evil :D

[Vladislav]

i loved that line, its like a "take that" to everyone who considers thog not evil :DActually, it's mostly a nod toward the Belkar fandom, probably.

[Crisis21]

Hooray! Roy vs Thog Round 2!

I think that this is the single longest wait between rematches to date. The last time Roy faced off against Thog in-panel was in comic 64 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0064.html) (Off-panel battle between 362 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0362.html) and 363 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0363.html) does not count). 724 comics is a long time between drinks.

[Agi Hammerthief]

nice, tanks :smallsmile:

does the title refer to "Shuks" or Roy's new Pet?

[calar]

I forgot all the reasons Roy would be mad at Thog, nice to know Roy is still nicely in character.

[Giggling Ghast]

Actually, it's mostly a nod toward the Belkar fandom, probably.

No, it's mostly a light-hearted jab at Thog's fandom. I've heard more than a few people argue that Thog was not really evil because, y'know, Thog's not that smart and Nale tricked him into killing people.

I think the days of people arguing that Belkar was not evil are long gone.

[NerfTW]

Actually, it's mostly a nod toward the Belkar fandom, probably.

Except that there were multiple threads locked in the last few days specifically about whether Thog was really evil or accountable for his actions. It was very much a direct reference to people's belief that Thog is lovable despite being a far more horrible person on screen than Belkar has ever been.

[silvadel]

Yeah, I thought so too. I think it's the large number of ideas and conversation topics that he brings up on his own initiative. Bad grammar isn't enough to make him seem dumb when he's basically engaging in witty repartee about panel layouts and relationship status updates. He was more lovable when between murders he only thought about puppies and ice cream.

edit: Tarquin's remark is pretty priceless, though.

Actually it is more because this repartee is more based on charisma than intelligence and Thog does have charisma. The minute the conversation goes to something wisdom oriented or pure int then it will go back to the other way.

[SteveMB]

They need to tell Tarquin that Nale is still alive, and that their previous assumptions about his death were wrong.

Well, Elan did say he "works" (present tense) for Nale, so presumably he intends to explain once things settle down a bit. Being Elan, the explanation might get a bit garbled, but Haley should be able to translate it into something sensible (i.e. "we thought Nale's whole gang got blown up real good -- if Thog is still alive, maybe Nale is, too").

[Raistlin82]

LOL @ all the anti-Thog-fan comments. :smallamused:
The Giant is NOT attacking anyone, he's just underlying his character's somehow unexpected and ironic popularity.
Oh, and he's also giving a reading key for this panel: if you (the reader) sum Tarquin's words to Roy's endless list of accusations, you'll be "not so outraged" when Roy: 1) has decided, since the earlier strip, that he's not showing mercy for a retarded guy with the brain of a child; 2) attacks his opponent when he's not looking; 3) keeps trying to kill a person who's genuinely talking in a friendly way, instead of refusing fight (as he so pompously declared in the previous strip). Without those considerations from Roy and Tarquin... Roy would have looked like an a**.

YES, Thog is a murderer that has been "killing for a living" his entire life.
YES, Thog is so stupid that he doesn't know any better and cannot even comprehend what's so wrong in doing what everybody always expected from him.
YES, Thog is still lovable. And he's also soooo happy to see Talky-man! :smallbiggrin:


I'm glad the Giant went back to Thog's first on panel kill, his biggest "crime" so far. It seemed weird to me that neither Roy nor his girlfriend ever mentioned her dead friends all this time (except for the aforementioned bonus strip).
As for Thog's other kills... I'm a little "hazy" too. Rich, you are a bottomless pit of self-reference, are you not? Can somebody provide a link to the events Roy mentions?

As for the outcome, I just hope Roy survives. I'm not aching to see Thog die, but if he does, I'm sure it will be a glorious scene, so I'm ok either way.
However, I'm afraid this is just the set up for a Belkar vs Thog fight.
Belkar is in a similar situation to Thog's, and there's so many "Lawful Stupid" Mikos out there hating on both. It would be fun to see their behaviour when they're forced to cheer for one or the other... :smalltongue:

[The_Final_Stand]

I am now amused by thog. I probably shouldn't be, but eh.

[snikrept]

LOL @ Tarquin's aside about the audience loving Thog no matter how many people he kills. That was priceless:smallbiggrin:

[The Glyphstone]

"It's weird, no matter how many people he kills, the audience still finds him lovable."

ZING!:smallbiggrin:

[hamishspence]

As for Thog's other kills... I'm a little "hazy" too. Rich, you are a bottomless pit of self-reference, are you not? Can somebody provide a link to the events Roy mentions?

One example:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0339.html

In a Dungeon Crawling Fools bonus strip, Thog (under the influence of a Zone of Truth spell) tells the cops that he'd killed several hundred other people (besides the earth fey) because Nale told him to.

[Seraphem]

"thog thankful for update on talky-man's relationship status"

This is why he is so popular.

Seconded, sure he kills people left and right, but he's just so innocent about it.


And for those wondering about why Tarquin said he "did" work for Nale, remember up till now everyone in 'verse thought Nale was dead, (Tarquin too from Elan and Haley.) So not only do they have to worry about Thog and Roy fighting to the death, but now they have to worry that Nale isn't dead.

[snikrept]

Apparently Thog's lovable aura that cancels perception of his deeds is operating in-universe too.

I guess Thog has a gi-normous charisma stat.

[Souhiro]

Well, I find Belkar lovable.
And many gobbo-lovers finds Redcloak lovable.
And almost everyone finds Monste in the darkness lovable.

But almost everyone kills. a lot.

[StyxMotors]

Just going through old pages and I see, gratifyingly, that Thog can be hurt (#64 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0064.html)), #70 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0070.html))

But can also fly? (#57 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0057.html), 59 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0059.html))

And that Thog is smart enough to be a vicious killer on purpose not just because he's an imbecile: "Thog Alone" (second to last panel:#51 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0051.html))

In my personal experience, most Chaotic Evil people aren't so funny or cute, but that's why I prefer reading about evil in fiction, where the antagonists are cute and funny and - given a decent author - will be struck down by the heroes. Go Roy!

[rman]

Ah, Tarquin has a weakness in his evil overlord genre savyness. Nale is Tarquins adversary for ruler. Tarquin knows Thog is a member of Nales gang. A genre aware evil villan would have Thog killed immediately after the intense questioning was done possibly before in the case of Thog as the likely hood of extracting "intelligence" is very low.

Forget any gladitorial things going on, a member of the group working against the overlord should be killed as soon as it is within their power. Failure to do so will result in the ally escaping and attacking the evil overlord later. Making that person the hero of the gladitorial games is just genre-stupidty and asking for it.

Tarquin is not all genre powerful !

[Chess435]

thog Crush Talky Man!

[EmperorSarda]

But can also fly? (#57 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0057.html), 59 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0059.html))


He flew only because of the fly spell cast on him.

[pendell]

Time to repeat:

If Thog dies, there will be a deluge of posts condemning Roy - likely worse than the whole Miko debacle.


Maybe, but I'm not. And I'm a Thog fan. I actually ran a YAAP in Nethack starring Thog.

Thog is whacky and funny. Thog is also a coldblooded murderer many times over. His death at Roy's hands would be just. I would prefer his redemption, but redemption seems to be a very uncommon thing in Rich Burlew's world.

I am confident that Thog's death -- IF it happens -- will be done with justice and with closure. I will be content.

Be that as it may, what with the bounty hunters escaping and Thog popping out of the armor, my expectations WRT this gladiator match are completely upset and I have no idea what's going to happen next. I'm pretty sure Roy will not die, because it's too early in the story to kill him again, but beyond that anything is possible.

All these surprises leave me on the edge of my seat in expectation, and THAT is good storytelling.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[MDR]

Okay, so they have both gained experience/levels since the last time they tumbled. This might come down to intelligence versus rage, which is the whole idea between the two (Thog being Roy's opposite). But I don't think so. Roy isn't quite optimized (reduced armor, different sword), while Thog isn't really any worse off (different axe at the most?).

[StyxMotors]

He flew only because of the fly spell cast on him.

Is this part of the 3.0ness of the spell, because I didn't see where ZZ'Dtri touched him. how many people can the spell effect? If only 2, I guess it makes sense to have Thog fly and carry Higla, but why not more than 2?

[RunicLGB]

Okay, so they have both gained experience/levels since the last time they tumbled. This might come down to intelligence versus rage, which is the whole idea between the two (Thog being Roy's opposite). But I don't think so. Roy isn't quite optimized (reduced armor, different sword), while Thog isn't really any worse off (different axe at the most?).

Optimization may favor Thog.

But plot favors Roy. And plot is the second most powerful force in the OOts univers.

The most powerful force is of course Funny.

[Leliel]

Hey look, I was right!

Thog was able to avoid being killed by Tarquin through sheer force of badass!

[Goosefeather]

"thank you, tiny people on benches!" :smallbiggrin:

Reminds me of one Father Ted episode, where Ted is explaining perspective to Dougal using toy sheep and real sheep in a field:

"OK, one last time. These are small... but the ones out there are far away. Small... far away... ah, forget it!"

[Leliel]

It's simple really.

Thog is hilarious, so a lot of people like him.

However, Thog is also a mass-murderer, and a lot of people don't like to admit to liking a genuinely evil person.

So, they invent reasons for his actions that make humanize him, or at least make him redeemable for fanfiction.

[Woodsman]

Clearly, we are the audience who finds Thog too lovable to kill.

Of course, we all knew that anyway. :smalltongue:

[Naris]

You know, I always used to think Thog was lovable in a dumb kinda way, and he just did bad things because he didn't kow any better. I thought with some guidance, he could even be good.
But now...
I think he's just dumb and mean.
:smallfrown:

I'm sure if someone were to offer him a lifetime supply of puppies and ice cream in exchange for never killing again he'd jump at it. Granted he'd probably forget his promise the next day. Thog probably hangs out much closer to the chaotic half of his alignment much more than the evil half. Still doesn't change the fact that he just loves killing though...

Loving the latest arc!

[hamishspence]

One of the bonus strips in Dungeon Crawlin' Fools shows Celia bringing Thog to the jail that Sabine later sprung him from (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0120.html). In it, Thog confesses to killing the Earth Fairy in front of her. She then could have told Roy about it at any time that they were together.

It took place even before that- Roy says they "killed her co-workers" here:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0072.html

[dps]

Nice little dig at the Thog fans in panel 5 :smallsmile:

PP

Yeah, I liked that one.

Don't get me wrong, he's a great character. But he's not lovable.

[sims796]

I love Thog as well. But I won't mind if he dies. Unlike a few, I don't really see him as some innocent child unable to fully realize what he's doing. He just loves to kill, and knows full well that people suffer for it. Those pants are getting a little tight on him, tropes be damned.

Still, I like that little jab that Rich made at the thog fans. It does not seem to be an all out attack against them, but just a gentle, funny jab.

[Dr.Epic]

Thog's axe looks pretty cool, and as always, Thog is awesome.

[Dr.Epic]

How does he know Thog killed the Earth Elemental? How does he even know there was one? We see in the strip with her (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0051.html) Roy is oblivious of the elemental.

[torugo]

Thog is NOT evil. He is chaotic neutral. Just see how people refer to him as being crazy and saying non-sense all the time. He is dumb like a rock and totally crazy.

A chaotic neutral character can do evil acts and good depending on the enviroment. Thog is capable of both sides but he is usually receiving incentives to do evil because of Nale and his group. He doesnt know what he is doing due to his mental retardment.

Chaotic neutral characters are often confused with evil because of their evil deeds, mostly because they fit so well with evil groups.

[hamishspence]

It's him talking like a child that might by why the viewers interpret him that way:

such as his reaction to Nale's monologue:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0341.html

[Djibril]

YAY Thog i'm with you mate, fudge the police!! They deserved to die anyway

[kivzirrum]

Uh oh-- now my two favorite characters are trying to kill each other!

I loved this strip. Especially the playful dig at Thog fans (and yeah, that includes me--Thog rocks).

[jidasfire]

Personally, I'm not worried about Thog dying here. For one thing, magic or no magic, he's a beast when it comes to strength and toughness. When last we saw him in a flashback panel, he was cheering as a dragon was trying to eat him. Maybe if Roy had his magic sword and belt, he'd be able to do it, but as the circumstances go, I doubt it. Besides, this is probably part of some overly complex plan of Nale's, which means the Order is likely to have another serious throwdown with the Linear Guild soon. Given that, a more decisive battle is probably in the making, but not just yet.

[torugo]

Anybody noticed Roy started the battle with a big attack on Thogs head and still Thog shows no sign of injury?

How was that possible?

I think on some possibilities:
Thog massive hit points

Rolling a 1 in the damage dice.

Rich forgot to put the damage on the drawing?

If the damage was so low...Roy has no chance at all.

[hamishspence]

The version of Chaotic Neutal here:

http://easydamus.com/chaoticneutral.html

seems a bit less malevolent than Thog is.

[sims796]

Too many lolz. It hurts.

[StyxMotors]

It's him talking like a child that might by why the viewers interpret him that way

Great point.

[hamishspence]

Roy says they "killed her co-workers" here:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0072.html

so maybe it came up between strips.

[Dr.Epic]

Rolling a 1 in the damage dice.

Yes, he rolled a one, or rather two ones because I'm pretty sure your roll 2d6's for a great sword.

So, 2+Roy's strength+the fact he's welding it two handed (more damage)+he probably has feats to increase damage with the weapon he welds all the time+potential power attack

[Who149]

Favorite line on the page :smallbiggrin: And that was a hard decision to make considering all of the great lines.

And I would guess it was a reference to everyone thinking he's lovable. I still think he is, but I also acknowledge his murderous side.

[lord of kobolds]

Thog looks twice as awesome in his new gladiator outfit. I love the axe, way better than the generic piece of metal he used to have.

[LightsOnNo1Home]

Except that there were multiple threads locked in the last few days specifically about whether Thog was really evil or accountable for his actions. It was very much a direct reference to people's belief that Thog is lovable despite being a far more horrible person on screen than Belkar has ever been.

It definitely looks like a reference to the Thog fandom, but it could apply to Belkar as well. Sort of a two birds, one stone kind of deal.

And anyway, if the shoe fits...

[Dr.Epic]

Roy says they "killed her co-workers" here:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0072.html

so maybe it came up between strips.

Even so, Roy still didn't know about the Earth Elemental.

[RunicLGB]

Most likely answer: Rule of Funny.

Possible mechanics: It s a greatsword so min damage is 2+ Roy's unmagiced strength, probably at +4 so min damage 6 give or take a power attack. If thog has DR for being a barbarian (estimated level 12-14) he has DR 2-3/-. IF Roy's attack hit through Thog's AC, Thog should have taken at least 3 points of damage, which to a High HP barabarian is about the same amount of damage a nasty hangnail could produce. Thog falling on the ground was likely the only real display that any damage was done.

[Secris]

Judging by the sound it made (CLONK), it seems that Roy hit him with the body of the sword and not the blade. But I can't imagine why he would do that when he seems pretty intent on taking Thog out. Is there some advantage to using a broadsword as a big metal club? I don't play D&D.

Alternate theories: Thog has some crazy-high natural AC. Or maybe that's just the sound a sword makes when it hits an empty but very thick skull. I dunno.

[Squeejee]

Thog is NOT evil. He is chaotic neutral. Just see how people refer to him as being crazy and saying non-sense all the time. He is dumb like a rock and totally crazy.

A chaotic neutral character can do evil acts and good depending on the enviroment. Thog is capable of both sides but he is usually receiving incentives to do evil because of Nale and his group. He doesnt know what he is doing due to his mental retardment.

Chaotic neutral characters are often confused with evil because of their evil deeds, mostly because they fit so well with evil groups.

As far as I know, most crazy chaotic neutrals don't kill on a whim. That's chaotic evil territory. A crazy CN is more likely to pants you in public.

Loved that line, love Thog as a character - even if he's a mass murderer. Same goes for the Belkster.

[sims796]

So him being an out & out murderer who enjoys his hobbies while being aware of the pain he causes goes out the window?

At any rate, I'd love to see how this fight plays out, but I pray it won't take dozens of strips to do so.

[DukeofDellot]

He took a -4 to hit and dealt Non-Lethal Damage.

Edit: I guess someone beat me to it...

[Calintares]

I'm begining to tire of the titles of the strips being definitions. It was funny the first time (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0616.html), but now it's been two times in three strips.

[Secris]

A chaotic neutral character can do evil acts and good depending on the enviroment. Thog is capable of both sides but he is usually receiving incentives to do evil because of Nale and his group. He doesnt know what he is doing due to his mental retardment.


Except Nale and company were shown to use ice cream sundaes to prevent Thog from going on a murderous rampage. I feel like if mild hunger or a simple lack of treats causes many innocents nearby to be his victims, that's pretty evil. He sure is dumb, that's true, but who says idiots can't be evil?

[RunicLGB]

Most likely answer: Rule of Funny.

Possible mechanics: It s a greatsword so min damage is 2+ Roy's unmagiced strength, probably at +4 so min damage 6 give or take a power attack. If thog has DR for being a barbarian (estimated level 12-14) he has DR 2-3/-. IF Roy's attack hit through Thog's AC, Thog should have taken at least 3 points of damage, which to a High HP barabarian is about the same amount of damage a nasty hangnail could produce. Thog falling on the ground was likely the only real display that any damage was done.

Edit: Whoops, interenet broke on me and cause double post.:smalleek:

[ShenCS]

Nobody noticing the irony of TARQUIN saying the line? I'd say it's a general shout out to all fans of evil characters.

[Who149]

Nobody noticing the irony of TARQUIN saying the line? I'd say it's a general shout out to all fans of evil characters.

Tarquin, Belkar, Thog, Redcloak, Tsukiko, and many more to add.

[sims796]

You know what I love about that line? The absolute seriousness in Tarquin's face when he said it. As if he was genuinley confused as to all the love he gets.

[martianmister]

Tarquin knows Thog is a member of Nales gang. A genre aware evil villan would have Thog killed immediately after the intense questioning was done possibly before in the case of Thog as the likely hood of extracting "intelligence" is very low.

Tarquin is lawful evil. He couldn't kill anyone he wants.

[hamishspence]

My guess is he figured it out from the info he had- the dungeon was elementally themed.

With Celia being the guardian of one sigil, he might have guessed (or she might have told him) that the other two sigils had guards before the Order and the Linear Guild came along.

[Djibril]

So him being an out & out murderer who enjoys his hobbies while being aware of the pain he causes goes out the window?

No, him beeing a ruthless killer (IMO) is one of the motivations of his awesomeness

Just as with Belkar

[martianmister]

Roy attacked to him with blunt side of his sword. Sneak attack isn't his style, he just want attention of Thog.

[Vladislav]

The penultimate panel of strip 51 has Roy asking Thog a question, Thog as usual providing an inane answer, and the dead Earth Elemental clearly visible in-panel. The last panel has Roy talking to Thog, and Thog not paying attention.

It's not much of a stretch to realize Roy is probably saying "Thog, why did you kill that Earth Elemental? You didn't have to kill her!"

[Andre]

Lovable. If you didn't know INT is Thog's dump stat, you could almost say he's purposedly winding up Roy.

Still, he has momenty of clarity every now and then, like his "not nale, not-nale" speech in prison. Talky-man for Roy is probably the most appropriate nickname that has ever existed since the birth of language - even an aggregate of two dozens of teenage schoolgirls, each of them able of literally talking your ear off for a day straight, would not be able to match him.

[Strife Warzeal]

Someone brought this up in another thread that in a bonus strip when celia took them(linear guild) to the jail that they said they killed the earth fairy thing. Don't quote me on this since I haven't actually read any of the books.

[RunicLGB]

Tarquin is lawful evil. He couldn't kill anyone he wants.

He had a random guard killed just to free up a woman so that he could force her to be his wife.

He not only could kill anyone he wants, he does so on a regular basis. I imagine his reasons for not killing thog were much more genre conventional.

He had thog, at his mercy, but why just kill him when he can throw him into an arena and force him to hopelessly fight until the day he dies to a booing crowd?

WE know that that wouldn't (and in fact hasn't) happen, but Tarquin would have seen as the appropraitely evil dictator thing to do. And if you think he's smart enough to realize that something that cliche is a bad idea, please remember that Tarquin's whole life plan is to build an evil empire JUST so that he can be defeated and have the whole thing overthrown!

Nothing is to Cliche for this man.

[sims796]

No, him beeing a ruthless killer (IMO) is one of the motivations of his awesomeness

Just as with Belkar

Oh don't get me wrong, I love Thog because he's a funny, chaming, ruthless killer, of course I think he's awesome.

It just baffles me how people try to make him out to be anything but evil. Ironically, just as with Belkar, current strips notwithstanding.

Did I just call a half orc charming?

[grimbold]

Apparently Thog's lovable aura that cancels perception of his deeds is operating in-universe too.

I guess Thog has a gi-normous charisma stat.

that would explain a lot

[Studoku]

It's weird, no matter how many people he kills, the audience still thinks he's lovable.
One of my favourite lines in a while.

[grimbold]

i think seeing as the elemental was her best friend Celia would have griped about it at some point

[pedrosette]

"A PEEVE IS NOT A TYPE OF DOG!" "Shucks."

This just HAS to be on a shirt. I would buy at least three.

[sims796]

I'm naming my dog Peeve just for that.

[Ancalagon]

Hehe, thanks for remembering everything who thinks Thog was cute about what an evil murderer he is. ;)

[herrhauptmann]

Personally, I'm not worried about Thog dying here. For one thing, magic or no magic, he's a beast when it comes to strength and toughness. When last we saw him in a flashback panel, he was cheering as a dragon was trying to eat him. Maybe if Roy had his magic sword and belt, he'd be able to do it, but as the circumstances go, I doubt it. Besides, this is probably part of some overly complex plan of Nale's, which means the Order is likely to have another serious throwdown with the Linear Guild soon. Given that, a more decisive battle is probably in the making, but not just yet.

I think it being a plan of Nales is a bit of a stretch. Thog's been there for months, and Nale had no way of knowing they would end up EoB, let alone capturd and arrested. He'd have assumed they'd go straight for the gate.

So if anything, Nale would be laying a trap somewhere near whatever location he thinks holds the gate.

[Deliverance]

Thog is evil, amoral, and stupid. He's also great fun. But he's definitely not lovable.

[Djibril]

Did I just call a half orc charming?

LOL you did but in THIS case, you're totally right too :smallbiggrin:

EVIL=FUNNY

GOOD.... well that's just plain boring

[Ancalagon]

Thog is NOT evil.

I think the title of the thread means you. Specificly. ;)

[Ancalagon]

Even so, Roy still didn't know about the Earth Elemental.

You could assume he talks with his girlfriend about the place where they met.

It's a no-brainer to figure out what happened to the guardian of the earth sigil after Celia explained how things were supposed to work and what Roy learned about Thog by then.

[LuPuWei]

I won't argue that Thog is a "good" character, but he's a damned-good character and I'll really miss him if he snuffs it. I mean if you have to axe a Linear Guild member, at least start with Nale...

[RunicLGB]

I think it being a plan of Nales is a bit of a stretch. Thog's been there for months, and Nale had no way of knowing they would end up EoB, let alone capturd and arrested. He'd have assumed they'd go straight for the gate.

So if anything, Nale would be laying a trap somewhere near whatever location he thinks holds the gate.

A thought just occured.

We know Tarquin knows Girrard, but it hasn't been revealed how. Is it possible that the knowledge of Girrard and his mysterious organization could be something that predates Nale's coup. And if so, then couldn't Nale know full well who Girrard is and possibly where his hideout is?

The loss of thog aside, that could be where he is right now, and would explain why he'd be willing to return to continent that he's being hunted on rather than trying for Kragoor's gate in the north. Namely, he could know exactly where Girrard's gate is and is already there of not close!

[Ancalagon]

There's a big CLONK right in the comic instead of a "slash". It pretty much shows that Roy dealt subdual damage - and probably not even with full force at that.

Roy's Lawful Good and stuff. 100% Celestia Approved.

[Venom3053000]

ok so am a bit confused when thog was with elan in the city he never killed anyone so done that mean he does what ever people tell him too do?:smallconfused:

[LuPuWei]

Thanks G, this comic has totally made up for any apprehension I'd harboured about Thog being the Champ. Unfortunately, it also reminds me of why I love his appearances so much and makes me really not want to see him die.:smallfrown: Maybe he can come back as some form of undead...

[Andre]

I guess Thog has a gi-normous charisma stat.

In fact, thog too pretty for jail.

[StyxMotors]

In fact, thog too pretty for jail.

Yup! Prob'ly why he had to have that face-mask

[martianmister]

He had a random guard killed just to free up a woman so that he could force her to be his wife.

Technically he was a MIA.

[Lurkmoar]

Slice and dice him Roy... just make sure he last four rounds first!

Very good strip. The puns are quite nice, and it does point out that while Thog is funny, he is a bad guy...

[Jay R]

I won't argue that Thog is a "good" character, but he's a damned-good character and I'll really miss him if he snuffs it. I mean if you have to axe a Linear Guild member, at least start with Nale...

Actually, we started with Yikyik.

[Nimrod's Son]

Someone brought this up in another thread that in a bonus strip when celia took them(linear guild) to the jail that they said they killed the earth fairy thing. Don't quote me on this since I haven't actually read any of the books.
DCF spoiler:
Under a Zone of Truth, they do admit to the killing, but this is after Celia handed them over in the first place with the declaration that they had murdered her co-workers, so clearly she already knew about it by that point.
So yeah, I'd imagine it's something Roy and Celia have discussed off-panel since they began dating. Quite how they found out about it is uncertain, but it seems likely, given the surrounding dialogue, to have been between strips 70 and 71.

[Deliverance]

ok so am a bit confused when thog was with elan in the city he never killed anyone so done that mean he does what ever people tell him too do?:smallconfused:
Elan was helping him find Nale, which was Thog's top priority at the time. Why would thog kill somebody and make achieving his own goal harder?

Thog is stupid and not into long-term planning, but in general he seems to understand the consequences of his actions.

[StyxMotors]

I wonder if it's connected to the last panel of the previous strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0787.html), where the guard has his hand on the blade! Maybe standard-issue gladiator swords are blunt as butter knives?

[FatJose]

I think the Leprechaun costume is what clinched it. And can we really condemn him so quickly after that? Can we?!

All that bonus(retcon) content seems to me to be there because the author doesn't like the Thog fans at all, actually. I don't see why it's necessary to have bonus pages pushing the Thog Is Evil point. We know he's evil, guys. I'm sure you all know Xykon is evil too but no one questions why people like him.

This sudden turn seems really forced, like a pretty obvious snuff job. Is Nale being alive such a huge revelation? Its been so many strips I have no idea who's doin' what anymore. And Nale escapes so many times that it should just be assumed that he's still alive at this point. Especially by you! :elan:

[Lurkmoar]

I doubt the Order ever thought that the Linear Guild was gone for good. Haley is just worried that Nale will pop up since Thog is in the arena.

And dude, Thog killed the Earth Fairy who didn't do anything to deserve it! He's always been bad, but funny.

[see]

It would happen even if we got cutaway panels of Thog eating babies and molesting squirrels.

Who cares what happens to tree rats?

[FatJose]

And dude, Thog killed the Earth Fairy who didn't do anything to deserve it! He's always been bad, but funny.

And that won me over instantly!


Who cares what happens to tree rats?

Well, if you just flip the victims...that would have a better effect.

[Neopolis]

Ah, lots of references to older strips... And Thog seems to care very little about the 4th wall, even for this comic's standard. I still love him. "Fudge the police" indeed, Thog.

[Mordaenor]

The reason I find Thog to be such an Awesome Character is for the very reason that he is A) Hysterically Funny and B) Completely Deserves the severe beating he is about to recieve from Roy. I have loved him from the moment he first appeared AND I will love watching him die as well. I can laugh at him AND root against him at the same time. PERFECT!

[jafar]

Haley is on to something here. Where is Nale? What is he up to? I see a plot-twist a-comin'!

[Tatterdemalion]

Oh please god, let that annoying SOB die permanently.

[Burner28]

Thog is NOT evil. He is chaotic neutral. Just see how people refer to him as being crazy and saying non-sense all the time. He is dumb like a rock and totally crazy.

A chaotic neutral character can do evil acts and good depending on the enviroment. Thog is capable of both sides but he is usually receiving incentives to do evil because of Nale and his group. He doesnt know what he is doing due to his mental retardment.

Chaotic neutral characters are often confused with evil because of their evil deeds, mostly because they fit so well with evil groups.

Okay...:smallconfused::smallconfused::smalltongue: :smalltongue: You must be kidding me.


Tarquin, Belkar, Thog, Redcloak, Tsukiko, and many more to add.

Hmmm. I never actually read about anyone insisting that Tsukiko was not Evil-aligned.

[Psyren]

Thog is NOT evil.

You realize you're exactly the person panel 5 is aimed at?

[factotum]

One of the bonus strips in Dungeon Crawlin' Fools shows Celia bringing Thog to the jail that Sabine later sprung him from (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0120.html). In it, Thog confesses to killing the Earth Fairy in front of her. She then could have told Roy about it at any time that they were together.

Hmmmm, I'd forgotten that one...just checked it out and he *does* confess to the crime in front of her. (Although she already said to the guards that Nale and Thog had killed two of her co-workers before he did that...suppose she and the Order could have compared notes about what they'd been up to).

[Tannhaeuser]

Hmmm…there must be something wrong with me. I’ve always found Thog funny, but not all that funny (I actually tend to be more amused by Nale). I have no problem at all with the idea of Roy waxing him, though I am a bit disturbed at a Lawful Good character striking a blow from behind without a warning. Not quite the straight bat on that one, Roy.

[Burner28]

I am a bit disturbed at a Lawful Good character striking a blow from behind without a warning. Not quite the straight bat on that one, Roy.

But Why would you be disturbed?

[martianmister]

I have no problem at all with the idea of Roy waxing him, though I am a bit disturbed at a Lawful Good character striking a blow from behind without a warning. Not quite the straight bat on that one, Roy.

That was blunt side of his sword.

[Siosilvar]

...I am a bit disturbed at a Lawful Good character striking a blow from behind without a warning. Not quite the straight bat on that one, Roy.

Lawful Good still doesn't mean Lawful Stupid. Heck, paladins can do it if they find it necessary. Only Knights (the D&D class) are prohibited from taking an advantage like that.

[Nada Rakshasa]

While I don't particularly like Thog, his naive sociopathy is strangely cute, particularly in the last three panels.

[HighwoodFool]

I love how Thog can say "relationship status", but not "me" or "you". :smallamused:

:thog: pronouns confuse thog. thog not "I"; thog not "me"; thog "thog."

[Scarlet Knight]

Oh don't get me wrong, I love Thog because he's a funny, chaming, ruthless killer, of course I think he's awesome.

It just baffles me how people try to make him out to be anything but evil.


Yes Thog is a killer, but he is unlike Nale, Tarquin, or Xykon.

His adventure with Not Nale gives me the belief that Thog could be good (ok, neutral) easily; he just needs direction, a puppy and lots of sprinkles.

[TriForce]

erhm..... what? subdual damage? minimum damage? no, just no.

a standard human (and halforc) has a ac of 10. dex modifiers work by making you harder to hit, thats why they also improve touch ac.
ARMOR(and shield) modifiers do not work by making you harder to hit, but by making the blow do no damage, thats why they are useless vs touch attacks

so basically, if thog has ac 19, 2 from dex modifier and 7 from armor, and roy would have hit ac 13-19, his sword would have hit thog, but without doing damage becouse of the armor, if he hit anything lower, thog would have dodged the sword completly

(note, these figures are obviously a example, im not suggesting thog has ac19 ot whatever)

so, the clonk sound is becouse roy's attack was more then thogs touch ac, bu not high enough to go above his total AC

[Sylthia]

Hmm, I wonder if Thog will ever work together with the Order. Maybe after Belkar dies, he would replace him as the evil PC that is put to use for the greater good.

[doodthedud]

Looks like he wants to get his attention first. Hence the questions. Probably entirely intentional.

[Moriarty]

Thog hasn't shown any sign of battle damage yet, even when the empress of blood chewed on him, he was still laughing.

[Warren Dew]

The penultimate panel of strip 51 has Roy asking Thog a question, Thog as usual providing an inane answer, and the dead Earth Elemental clearly visible in-panel. The last panel has Roy talking to Thog, and Thog not paying attention.

It's not much of a stretch to realize Roy is probably saying "Thog, why did you kill that Earth Elemental? You didn't have to kill her!"
Roy's expression in the final panel seems a little unconcerned to be asking that question. I'd go with the idea that Celia told Roy enough for them to figure it out.

[Welknair]

How did Roy know that the Earth Fairy was one of Celia's best friends? She told him. Chances are she wouldn't have told him that without also telling him that there was an Earth Fairy in the dungeon. And since he and Thog were the only ones to pass through that way, Thog obviously was the one who killed her. Also see previous point relating to the in-panel-ness of the body.

[Tannhaeuser]

Lawful Good still doesn't mean Lawful Stupid. Heck, paladins can do it if they find it necessary.

Exactly so—if they find it necessary. It isn’t really necessary for Roy to strike Thog from behind (we have seen that he is fully capable of standing up to him in a straight fight), and it isn’t exactly characteristic of a delicate regard for the rules of civilized combat. It’s not the sort of thing that a preux chevalier would do.

Of course, I did say I was only a bit disturbed. I fully grant that Thog is a thug on whom legalistic niceties are wasted, and that Roy isn’t exactly concerned with chivalry as much as with common, ordinary decency. On the other hand, smiting one’s foe while his back is turned is just not an act that trumpets Lawful Good. It’s almost as if Roy were inclined to veer toward Chaos in the execution of his perceived responsibilities.

[Kaytara]

"It's weird, no matter how many people he kills, the audience still thinks he's lovable."

Ouch, Rich. That burned. XD

[martianmister]

Exactly so—if they find it necessary. It isn’t really necessary for Roy to strike Thog from behind (we have seen that he is fully capable of standing up to him in a straight fight), and it isn’t exactly characteristic of a delicate regard for the rules of civilized combat. It’s not the sort of thing that a preux chevalier would do.

That was probably blunt side of his sword.

[Kato]

Thanks for the comic, Giant.


Well, I like Thog, too. His alignment aside, he does lots of evil stuff but he's still funny. Like Belkar. Judge me if you want to.

But... why is Elan surprised about their survival? Isn't he genre savy enough to realize HE has to kill his evil twin? o.O

[BobVosh]

I could see arguments that he is chaotic neutral, being possibly insane and definitely not of a functional level intelligence. His attitude towards death suggest he doesn't understand it very well.

[Lurkmoar]

No, Thog does understand it in his own way. He seems to enjoy causing it.

[t209]

Now this battle could end with Roy being dead (again)! or Thog died.
Third Option: Thog Redeemed himself.(Maybe)

[Taekwondodo]

:thog: :shucks.

BEST. LINE. EVER! :smallbiggrin:

I kind of got the feeling that Roy was asking Thog just so he could have a better reason to kill him. It just seemed a bit weird is all.

[Conuly]

"It's weird, no matter how many people he kills, the audience still thinks he's lovable."

Ouch, Rich. That burned. XD

Is he wrong? Is there ANY murderous evil character in this strip that some people don't love unconditionally?

(And on that note, isn't thog still lovable even if he is evil? He's got the puppies and the ice cream and the childlike simplicity going on!)

[doodthedud]

Exactly so—if they find it necessary. It isn’t really necessary for Roy to strike Thog from behind (we have seen that he is fully capable of standing up to him in a straight fight), and it isn’t exactly characteristic of a delicate regard for the rules of civilized combat. It’s not the sort of thing that a preux chevalier would do.

Of course, I did say I was only a bit disturbed. I fully grant that Thog is a thug on whom legalistic niceties are wasted, and that Roy isn’t exactly concerned with chivalry as much as with common, ordinary decency. On the other hand, smiting one’s foe while his back is turned is just not an act that trumpets Lawful Good. It’s almost as if Roy were inclined to veer toward Chaos in the execution of his perceived responsibilities.

Except that Roy clearly hit him with a sword while not penetrating the skin. Indeed, Thog doesn't even seem to be hurt in the slightest. It's likely that Roy was doing nothing more than getting his attention in a fairly forceful way.
Not really anything wrong with that. It's just snapping Thog out of his distraction with the crowd and getting him ready for a fight.

[KoboldRevenge]

Man! He took a blow to the head with a sword! Jeez :smalleek:

[DougTheHead]

Except that Roy clearly hit him with a sword while not penetrating the skin. Indeed, Thog doesn't even seem to be hurt in the slightest. It's likely that Roy was doing nothing more than getting his attention in a fairly forceful way.
Not really anything wrong with that. It's just snapping Thog out of his distraction with the crowd and getting him ready for a fight.

Or it could be this comic's longstanding shorthand that wounds=reduced hit points, suggesting that Roy's blow barely took anything off Thog's hit point total. Which, given that Thog is a barbarian orc, would be in keeping with what we know about him.

[SquirrelKing]

Man! He took a blow to the head with a sword! Jeez :smalleek:

:thog: it only flesh wound

[FatJose]

Unlawful?

Maybe it's survival? He doesn't like the guy at all, for good reason and he's fighting for his life. Roy's a character that is written as a character not a D&D PC that wears his alignment as a straitjacket.

[Crisis21]

To the people stating that Roy should be losing to Thog due to not having his magic items (specifically his belt of giant strength and +5 sword):

The first time the two fought one-on-one, Roy did not have the belt, and his sword had not been reforged as a starmetal sword. He beat Thog fairly decisively at that time, and I see few reasons why he couldn't do so now.

Remember, he managed to knock Belkar, who is no slouch in the toughness department, for a loop with one hit from a wooden sword.

[ss49]

Straight Outta Cliffport
featuring
Fudge tha Police!
by O.W.A.

[oddtail]

Oh please god, let that annoying SOB die permanently.

...but, but, but... I *like* Roy!

[Blaznak]

Thog is so much fun!

[Klytus]

Exactly so—if they find it necessary. It isn’t really necessary for Roy to strike Thog from behind (we have seen that he is fully capable of standing up to him in a straight fight), and it isn’t exactly characteristic of a delicate regard for the rules of civilized combat. It’s not the sort of thing that a preux chevalier would do.

Of course, I did say I was only a bit disturbed. I fully grant that Thog is a thug on whom legalistic niceties are wasted, and that Roy isn’t exactly concerned with chivalry as much as with common, ordinary decency. On the other hand, smiting one’s foe while his back is turned is just not an act that trumpets Lawful Good. It’s almost as if Roy were inclined to veer toward Chaos in the execution of his perceived responsibilities.

Why do so many folks make such a big deal out of it when a character isn't "perfect" with regards to their alignment? When Roy was being judged at the Pearly Gates, it was made pretty clear to Roy (and the rest of us) that the Heavens do not expect mortals to be perfect in pursuit of their alignment, only that they keep trying. Ergo, an occasional not-so-Lawful act here and there in pursuit of the Greater Good (which Thog's death would definitely qualify for BTW) is not going to cost Roy any Lawful Good points in the eyes of the Powers That Be™. Even if it is simply act of Chaos borne of frustration, what counts is whether those acts are simply lapses that fallible mortals are prone to make, or the start of a trend towards consistently Chaotic behavior.

[Flame of Anor]

erhm..... what? subdual damage? minimum damage? no, just no.

a standard human (and halforc) has a ac of 10. dex modifiers work by making you harder to hit, thats why they also improve touch ac.
ARMOR(and shield) modifiers do not work by making you harder to hit, but by making the blow do no damage, thats why they are useless vs touch attacks

so basically, if thog has ac 19, 2 from dex modifier and 7 from armor, and roy would have hit ac 13-19, his sword would have hit thog, but without doing damage becouse of the armor, if he hit anything lower, thog would have dodged the sword completly

(note, these figures are obviously a example, im not suggesting thog has ac19 ot whatever)

so, the clonk sound is becouse roy's attack was more then thogs touch ac, bu not high enough to go above his total AC

Well, IRL that would be true, but that's not how it's portrayed in the comic. In the sheer amount of battles that have been going on, it's certain that many, many hits would be blocked by armor, and yet they are always drawn as missing. So I don't think your suggestion holds water.

[TheFallenOne]

I may be overanalyzing, but look at the attack Roy lines up in the last panel. Imagine how it will look when he completes the swing. Compare to Horace oneshotting that cleric. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0497.html)

I think Roy may be initiating the special move his grandfather taught him

[martianmister]

The first time the two fought one-on-one, Roy did not have the belt, and his sword had not been reforged as a starmetal sword. He beat Thog fairly decisively at that time, and I see few reasons why he couldn't do so now.

When? Their last fight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0064.html) isn't really resolved.

[Burner28]

Why do so many folks make such a big deal out of it when a character isn't "perfect" with regards to their alignment? When Roy was being judged at the Pearly Gates, it was made pretty clear to Roy (and the rest of us) that the Heavens do not expect mortals to be perfect in pursuit of their alignment, only that they keep trying. Ergo, an occasional not-so-Lawful act here and there in pursuit of the Greater Good (which Thog's death would definitely qualify for BTW) is not going to cost Roy any Lawful Good points in the eyes of the Powers That Be™. Even if it is simply act of Chaos borne of frustration, what counts is whether those acts are simply lapses that fallible mortals are prone to make, or the start of a trend towards consistently Chaotic behavior.

Actually the thing is that Lawful does not mean you fight fairly.

[ThreadKiller]

:roy: "A PEEVE IS NOT A TYPE OF DOG!"

:thog: "Shucks."

Ahhh, Thog, how I miss your banter. It's true that he's lovable. :biggrin:

[Caliphbubba]

classic. that's all I have to say.

[Querzis]

The first time the two fought one-on-one, Roy did not have the belt, and his sword had not been reforged as a starmetal sword. He beat Thog fairly decisively at that time, and I see few reasons why he couldn't do so now.

...hum no? Thog was only defeated through illusion until now (and he once surrendered since thats what Nale asked him to do). He never even showed any battle damage till now, even when the empress was chomping him he was smiling. A half-orc barbarian should be incredibly tough at this level.

Thog is a barbarian. Even if we assume they are the same level (and logically at this point Thog should be higher but whatever) a barbarian is kinda a lot stronger then a pure fighter at their level (unless we start using some of the awesome feats they got in non-core book but the comic doesnt use a lot of non-core stuff.)

That being said, even if Thog got rules on his side, Roy got plot on his side. And plot is a lot stronger.

[Crisis21]

When? Their last fight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0064.html) isn't really resolved.


...hum no? Thog was only defeated through illusion until now (and he once surrendered since thats what Nale asked him to do). He never even showed any battle damage till now, even when the empress was chomping him he was smiling. A half-orc barbarian should be incredibly tough at this level.

Thog is a barbarian. Even if we assume they are the same level (and logically at this point Thog should be higher but whatever) a barbarian is kinda a lot stronger then a pure fighter at their level (unless we start using some of the awesome feats they got in non-core book but the comic doesnt use a lot of non-core stuff.)

That being said, even if Thog got rules on his side, Roy got plot on his side. And plot is a lot stronger.

In response to both of you, Thog quit that fight when Roy was more than willing to continue. The raging barbarian retreated when it became obvious that his victory wasn't a foregone conclusion.

Granted, both have gone up in levels, and Thog has the advantage when all magical items are removed from the equation, but I still see Roy as the superior combatant of the two, Plot or no Plot.

[Valley]

Now this battle could end with Roy being dead (again)! or Thog died.
Third Option: Thog Redeemed himself.(Maybe)

Or Nale releases the dinosaur.
....
What? What if he wants to kill Roy?
....
Oh, yeah, like he cares if Thog gets chewed on, please!
...
It could happen.

Oh, and another thing. Isn't Roy about to kill somebody without a thought? I mean, being ruthless killer is something he is good at also. He just happens to be a Hero - Double-O of the D&D world. True, he is not Miko, but still...isn't he going to give the folks up in the stands what they WANT? Isn't that a bad thing?

[Nogster]

Thog got clonked with the flat of Roy's blade. Thog's look is shock, not pain. talky-man clearly, despite his rage, isn't willing to kill Thog in such a dishonorable way.

[skim172]

I believe the "clonk" is meant to be the sound of a metal sword bouncing off a very, very thick skull.

Roy is generally honorable, but I doubt he'd sacrifice an advantage simply to make it a fair fight.


Or, alternatively, the maintenance of gladiatorial weapons is miserable and the sword is so dull that it couldn't cut through butter.

[Valley]

I believe the "clonk" is meant to be the sound of a metal sword bouncing off a very, very thick skull.

Roy is generally honorable, but I doubt he'd sacrifice an advantage simply to make it a fair fight.


Or, alternatively, the maintenance of gladiatorial weapons is miserable and the sword is so dull that it couldn't cut through butter.

Maybe they gave Roy a dull sword because Thog needs to win. He is the CHAMP! If the champ gets his butt kicked, or killed, by a newcomer will they make Roy a new champ or will that just upset the crowd?

No, don't tell me they are...GASP...cheating? NOOOOOOO!

[MesiDoomstalker]

I may be overanalyzing, but look at the attack Roy lines up in the last panel. Imagine how it will look when he completes the swing. Compare to Horace oneshotting that cleric. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0497.html)

I think Roy may be initiating the special move his grandfather taught him

The special move is for spellcasters, which :thog: is not. Your example of Horace is against a full caster (cleric) and as an adventurer who died of old age, he was most likely high level, if not epic (I personally don't think he is/was). Since Roy, who is around 10th level fighter at the time, killed the opposing fighter with a single full-round action, I'd say the evil adventuring group was much lower level than Roy and Horace is higher than Roy. Horace may, indeed, be using his techinque against the cleric, his victory is due to difference in level, not a combat techinique.

[Aerysil]

Oh Thog, you're my 4th wall breaking kind of dope.

[Collen]

Nice call back to #110.

My question is this: if Roy almost kills Thog, would Tarquin stop him because everyone loves Thog?

[Morquard]

Tarquin said he tried to kill Thog ever since he got arrested. First few times in the arena, and then he was so popular he couldn't just slit his throat at night.
So the only chance for that is to have thog loose a fight.
Yeah sure, crowd will hate the new champion then, but that just means they cheer all the more when the next guy kills that one.

So if anything Tarquin would manipulate it so Thog gets the blunt sword.

Of course thats assuming he's telling the truth, for all we know he absolutely knows who Roy is and is just not letting it on.

I don't know what the Clonk is supposed to mean, but I like the idea that it means Thog's thick head. Roy knows Thog is chaotic evil and a psychotic serial killer, I don't think he'd be holding back.

[fimzo]

I am just now coming to terms with the fact that Thog is evil.

Oh well, he's still great. :thog:

[rewinn]

:thog: Thog have more fingers than smarts. Thog not use head, so no damage when talky-man hit it.

[Kish]

Oh, and another thing. Isn't Roy about to kill somebody without a thought?

No, he's going to kill someone with quite a few thoughts, which he listed.

Roy has never been a pacifist; I don't know why you'd suddenly expect him to be now.

[stimepy]

Now those of you arguing alignment of our happy go lucky :thog:! Consider this:
1. He does commit murder, for fun, but as for as we can tell usually at the command of Nale.
2. He could have killed Not-Nale, and found a way back on his own to Nale.
3. Ice Cream and Puppies, umm, ever see an evil Character really looking for those thing? I haven't (but maybe I haven't been around long enough.)
4. He's been with Nale for... atleast a few years. Neutral Probably would go off on his own and get his puppies and Ice cream (W/ Sprinkles!).

Personal thought, Thog is Chaotic Evil, with some Neutral Tenancies. (ie. He's CE but at times leans closer to CN.)

[torugo]

You may also have noticed that there is 2 other misses.

For 2 high lvl warriors against crappy armor...they are damn unlucky...

or using a greater power attack...who hits first gets to make a huuuuge damage

[mirageknuckler]

Now those of you arguing alignment of our happy go lucky :thog:! Consider this:
1. He does commit murder, for fun, but as for as we can tell usually at the command of Nale.
2. He could have killed Not-Nale, and found a way back on his own to Nale.
3. Ice Cream and Puppies, umm, ever see an evil Character really looking for those thing? I haven't (but maybe I haven't been around long enough.)
4. He's been with Nale for... atleast a few years. Neutral Probably would go off on his own and get his puppies and Ice cream (W/ Sprinkles!).

Personal thought, Thog is Chaotic Evil, with some Neutral Tenancies. (ie. He's CE but at times leans closer to CN.)

1. Just because someone tells you to commit murder doesn't mean you are innocent if you do it. Thog kills people because he enjoys it, not just because of Nale.
2. Thog is nowhere near intelligent enough to find Nale. Elan, who has a higher INT score than Thog (albeit not by much), had to get help from Julio Scoundrel to get back to Haley and Nale. Thog wouldn't have been able to break out of prison without Elan's goading. He was waiting for Nale to return.
3. Thog likes ice cream and puppies. So? Belkar likes kitties, but we all can agree on his alignment.
4. Not sure 'bout your point here.
To conclude, Thog may be childish sometimes, and he is very funny. But that doesn't change a thing. He is one of my favorite characters, but he's evil. No dispute there.

[Sarco_Phage]

I'm with the subdual damage crowd. We've already seen Roy using his greatsword for subdual damage against Miko, for example, (when it might have been wiser to just kill her, since she was about to kill Hinjo) so we know it's a tactic he uses.

EDIT: Like mirageknuckler says, liking non violent things says nothing about your alignment. Thog likes puppies and ice cream, Belkar is a gourmet chef, Xykon's favorite thing in the world was coffee. And so on.

[turkishproverb]

"It's weird, no matter how many people he kills, the audience still finds him lovable."

Yea, always intersting to see the way the Giant comments on things.

[Caemos]

Roy appears to have just wanted Thog's attention with that first swing. If he was meaning to kill Thog outright he would have continued attacking when Thog was on the ground. Roy is tactical, but it's important to him (judging by the questions) that he wants people to know that he's doing this to make Thog answer for his crimes.
This isn't really a duel or even a fight-to-the-death to Roy, it's an execution, and there generally is a procedure to executions (at least when the judge is lawful good).

[Forikroder]

Thog apreciate update on relationship status

i swear to god, giant your gonna have someone laugh themselves to death one day

[Sarco_Phage]

This isn't really a duel or even a fight-to-the-death to Roy, it's an execution, and there generally is a procedure to executions (at least when the judge is lawful good).

That's a bit of a reaching statement. All Roy is doing is engaging in the behavior we usually see from him when he's fighting powerful villains.

[Who149]

Its been proven that Thog is a mass murderer. But at the same time glad to hear from talky-man Roy. I have to say, he is one of the most lovable psychopathic killers I have ever seen.

[Spirited Charge]

It is a true struggle not to surrender and revel in the awesomeness which is Thog. For the sake of my eternal sanity, I willingly submit and sit astounded! :smallbiggrin:

[Yendor]

Tarquin said he tried to kill Thog ever since he got arrested. First few times in the arena, and then he was so popular he couldn't just slit his throat at night.
So the only chance for that is to have thog loose a fight.
Yeah sure, crowd will hate the new champion then, but that just means they cheer all the more when the next guy kills that one.

Or better yet, Tarquin can have Roy "killed" away from the action and bust him out. Remember that he wanted to recruit Roy for his army.

[Sarco_Phage]

Or better yet, Tarquin can have Roy "killed" away from the action and bust him out. Remember that he wanted to recruit Roy for his army.

He's no Vetinari, though.

[LtNOWIS]

All that bonus(retcon) content seems to me to be there because the author doesn't like the Thog fans at all, actually. I don't see why it's necessary to have bonus pages pushing the Thog Is Evil point. We know he's evil, guys. I'm sure you all know Xykon is evil too but no one questions why people like him.

1) Bonus strips aren't retcons.
2) They're not pushing an agenda that isn't present in the online strip, just polishing up loose ends and so forth.
3) They're not having any Thog be any more evil than the main strip. He killed the Earth elemental in the online strip, not in bonus content.
4) I don't think "dislike of the fans" is a major motivating factor for the Giant.

[Tobimaro]

Well, looks like the Linear Guild is now getting involved. Time for the chaos to start! :smallbiggrin:

[Sarco_Phage]

Thog is NOT evil. He is chaotic neutral.

Yes, exactly! Just like the Joker and Belkar! He is obviously not evil at all, just like those two, despite killing for similar criteria, and possibly having a higher civilian body count than Belkar!


Chaotic neutral characters are often confused with evil because of their evil deeds, mostly because they fit so well with evil groups.

Dude, you know what doing Evil Deeds makes you?

[mirageknuckler]

Yes, exactly! Just like the Joker and Belkar! He is obviously not evil at all, just like those two, despite killing for similar criteria, and possibly having a higher civilian body count than Belkar!



Dude, you know what doing Evil Deeds makes you?

People go to prison for life because they commit one "evil deed" by killing someone. Thog has murdered how many people now? How can you even consider him Neutral? He's a great character and a good source of comic relief, but you can't deny his alignment is Evil.

[Sarco_Phage]

...

The first part, where I was comparing him to Belkar, and the Joker, was meant to indicate that he was evil just like them, possibly just as much.

Sarcasm on the internet: someone always takes it seriously.

[mirageknuckler]

No see, I was talking to the other guy. Just quoted the wrong person by accident.

[Jay R]

... I am a bit disturbed at a Lawful Good character striking a blow from behind without a warning. Not quite the straight bat on that one, Roy.

Without a warning??

Thog is in a gladiatorial arena with an opponent for the thirty-eighth time. The first thirty-seven times, Thog killed his opponent.

Just how much warning would you consider adequate?

[UncredibleHallq]

Yes Thog is a killer, but he is unlike Nale, Tarquin, or Xykon.

His adventure with Not Nale gives me the belief that Thog could be good (ok, neutral) easily; he just needs direction, a puppy and lots of sprinkles.
This.

I've never thought Thog was anything but Chaotic Evil, but Tarquin's line rubbed me the wrong way. It implies there's something surprising or weird about liking Thog, but... Thog's team-up with Elan really cemented Thog's likability, and I would've thought that was intentional.

In fact, IIRC Thog teamed up with Elan because he considers Elan a friend. Thog seems to consider all members of the OoTS friends. And when I think about it, that level of inability to understand the world makes it somewhat difficult for me to see Thog as responsible for his actions.

Not arguing that Thog is really True Neutral or anything, just noting something that gives me pause.

[Sarco_Phage]

Well, it's not like he's irredeemably evil. He's unquestionably evil, but the difference between Thog and Tarquin is the difference between the kid who pulls the wings off flies, and the kid who sets the anthill on fire. As villains, they're just on different scales.

[UncredibleHallq]

BTW, when I read the strip, I interpreted the "clonk" as Roy hitting with the flat of his sword. This wasn't about honor or anything, it was about Roy not wanting to kill Thog right away. He wants to kill him for sure, but he wants it to be a satisfying kill, drawn out a bit and with a solid "you're an evil bastard" lecture.