[3.x] I have brought you... Devastation.

[Doc Roc]

I gate in a balor.
I... Jar into the balor.
Then cast jar again into another creature.
Then I break the first jar. Which is supposed to kill me, but only has clauses for if I am in the new body or the gem, and since I'm in neither, it does nothing. Then I jump back to the balor body.


Which is Mine Now.

Trick First Used In: Commodore Guff. In the tradition of ol' 339, I'd like to see what you guys can bring in the same vein. Let us lay down all the tricks, all the little gibbering breaks in the game.


I have brought you devastation, and you shall be its artisans.

[Lord_Gareth]

How many additional steps do I need to replace 'Balor' with 'Stone Golem'?

[Doc Roc]

You just need to quicken a stone to flesh.

[Octopus Jack]

What happens if you chain jar and do this? :smallwink:

[9mm]

... hardly a hard breakage but, did you know you can twin area spells for just a +3 weapon enhancement? Arcane Archer + Splitting property.

First used in: Roy Harper, ToS.

[Coidzor]

Ok. The idea of gaining control of that many bodies simultaneously just made my brain break a little bit.

Mostly because I have no idea how many creatures a twinned chained magic jar would affect. :smallconfused: I forgot that chaining a spell made it into an area spell...x,x

[TroubleBrewing]

What is this I don't even

[Radar]

I don't think a Twinned or Chained Magic Jar would work as you think. The target of the spell is the person doing the body swap - initial effect is, that you end up in a Jar. Only then you can possess a different body. Chaining the spell would only mean, you allow more people to do the same trick at once. Twinning the spell on yourself most likely won't work (one of the Jars will be empty), because you can't split or duplicate your soul (or can you?).

[Amphetryon]

Twinning the spell on yourself most likely won't work (one of the Jars will be empty), because you can't split or duplicate your soul (or can you?).Source on this restriction, please?

[CodeRed]

Source on this restriction, please?

The universe screaming in agony for making yourself a Voldemort clone isn't good enough reason not to do it?

[The Glyphstone]

This is wrong, Doc.:smallamused: It's like a Formula 1 competitive sport driver challenging a class of first graders to a tricycle race; you already know all the cheesy combos and tricks, you'll be able to take anything anyone posts and point out how it can be made better or more cheesy.

[InaVegt]

There's always this classic:

Gate in an Efreeti, use its wish ability to wish for a ring of infinite quickened wishes.

Watch the multiverse weep as you walk around with near godlike power.

[Amphetryon]

The universe screaming in agony for making yourself a Voldemort clone isn't good enough reason not to do it?

No doubt it is for some groups. In a game where Arcanists can pull off all sorts of shenanigans and where it's entirely possible to create an invisible exalted flying polar bear who calls down lightning and shoots laser beams, more definitive sources for the restriction may be necessary.

[Radar]

Source on this restriction, please?
Ok, I can phrase it more precisely. When you Twin the spell, both versions are resolved consecutively (no multithreading in D&D). First Magic Jar will put your soul into a Jar and leave your body empty. The second spell will either try to target your body and fail (no soul to transfer there) or target your soul and transfer it to the second Jar leaving the first one empty.

[Popertop]

The universe screaming in agony for making yourself a Voldemort clone isn't good enough reason not to do it?

complain all you want, you know Voldy would make a great villain.

he's like a lich with seven different phylacteries!

[Radar]

complain all you want, you know Voldy would make a great villain.

he's like a lich with seven different phylacteries!
Bah! He should be using Clones and Astral Projection like the rest of us.

[dextercorvia]

My only original "trick" that is worth mentioning is that Generalist Wizardry gives you the class ability to cast spells based on what spells you can already cast (without requiring that said spells come from class levels to begin with). That allows all sorts of shenanigans. My favorite, of course is the Versatile Domain Generalist that can cast 9ths at first level.

[cagemarrow]

Voldemort would be a Dry Lich from Sandstorm, possibly with a reptile or yanti template added on. He's turned all of his major organs into phylacteries. :)

[Mr. Anon Omys]

Last I checked, a nose was not a major organ.

[Lord_Gareth]

Bah! He should be using Clones and Astral Projection like the rest of us.

I just save my game. In tabletop.

Time travel: don't leave home without yours.

[Radar]

I just save my game. In tabletop.

Time travel: don't leave home without yours.
Ah, but for that you need to be a psion and has anyone ever heared about a Psion Who Did It? I prefer to be a wizard, thank you very much. :smalltongue:

[InaVegt]

Ah, but for that you need to be a psion and has anyone ever heared about a Psion Who Did It? I prefer to be a wizard, thank you very much. :smalltongue:

I have not.

But I have heard of a man called the Psion.

Psion Who, you ask..?

[WinWin]

Chained Power Leech. Normally requires a 15th level caster, but metamagic reduction will make that lower.

up to 15 targets, up to 15 points of ability damage to each and the caster receives an enhancement bonus of up to +225 to an attribute for 2 and a half hours.

DMM abuse would allow a persisted, chained power leech...which unless you're targeting Constitution, can run all day for unlimited (*actually finite, just more than I can count) enhancement boni.

Summoned monsters can be ordered to volountaritly fail their saves. Buff a casting stat, use your Hewards Restful Bedroll. Enjoy your bonus spells. If you're taking the DMM route, you may as well buff charisma as well as wisdom for the extra turning attempts.

Oh...Rats in a bag.

1. Skeletal rats are 1/4 hit dice, so you can have lots of them.

2. Repeated castings of Unliving Weapon (or simply more chaining).

3. Put them in a bag.

4. Order the rats to attack each other when the bag is next opened.

5. Put them on your enemy's porch then ring his doorbell.

6. Run away very quickly.

[Aspenor]

Abuse Red Wizard, Arcane Manipulation, and Circle Magic to have hundreds of 9th level spells per day at effective spell level 20 and 40th caster level.

[Starbuck_II]

Side question: What if you tried Magic jar on a summoned monster do you wink out of existance when Summon duration ends?

[Amphetryon]

Fimbulwinter + Born of the Three Thunders + Explosive Spell = Big Badda Boom. If your DM applies "reasonable damage" to the the folks blasted to the edge of the spell based on the distance they just flew at speed, it gets . . . sillier.

[Gametime]

Born of the Three Thunders requires the spell to be sonic or electricity and to do hit point damage. Needs some Flash Frost Spell + Energy Substitution. (Of course, this is all assuming you can apply metamagic effects in the most beneficial order.)

Also, since Fimbulwinter's area centers on you, better buff up that Reflex save!

[Amphetryon]

Born of the Three Thunders requires the spell to be sonic or electricity and to do hit point damage. Needs some Flash Frost Spell + Energy Substitution. (Of course, this is all assuming you can apply metamagic effects in the most beneficial order.)

Also, since Fimbulwinter's area centers on you, better buff up that Reflex save!

Given that Fimbulwinter's a 9th level spell, you should generally have sufficient feats available. My apologies for not being more explicit in the necessary pieces of the puzzle.

[Claudius Maximus]

Sanctum Spell + (Greater) Arcane Fusion.

Just... Sanctum Spell really.

[HugeC]

I gate in a balor.
I... Jar into the balor.
Then cast jar again into another creature.
Then I break the first jar. Which is supposed to kill me, but only has clauses for if I am in the new body or the gem, and since I'm in neither, it does nothing. Then I jump back to the balor body.

Nonsense.

...If the spell ends while you are in a host, you return to your body (or die, if it is out of range of your current position)...
That's "a" host, as in any host. Break the first jar and you are back in your own body or dead. Next trick, please!


Source on this restriction, please?
I believe the restriction is known as "the munchkin fallacy." :smallbiggrin:

[Fable Wright]

Side question: What if you tried Magic jar on a summoned monster do you wink out of existance when Summon duration ends?
No, you return to the plane the body came from... and then die when the Jar spell ends and you're away from it. Unless you manage to go back with that, too...

[Doc Roc]

Magic jar, when cast, considers your current body to be your body, by all accounts.

[Gardener]

Born of the Three Thunders requires the spell to be sonic or electricity and to do hit point damage. Needs some Flash Frost Spell + Energy Substitution. (Of course, this is all assuming you can apply metamagic effects in the most beneficial order.)

Also, since Fimbulwinter's area centers on you, better buff up that Reflex save!
Extraordinary Spell Aim. Though it does halve the damage dealt and bury you in a pile of corpses. Prepare a Teleport or Plane Shift for afterwards.

[Aspenor]

As far as the OP goes, multiple castings of the same spell do not affect each other unless explicitly stated so in the spell description. Even if you cast the spell twice, the second casting has no affect on the first. Therefore, when you break the receptacle, the spell ends no matter how many times you have cast it.

This means that you are now in a new body, an unhappy balor has your new receptacle, and you basically have gotten nowhere. Well, nowhere except making a balor extremely unhappy.

This also assumes the balor has a gem or crystal worth at least 100 gp to use as the focus for the spell. Having taken over a body through Magic Jar does not take away the requirements for using material components and foci.

[WinWin]

Apocalypse from the Sky. Just make sure you have Sadism running. Then slap a supercharger and make them cry.

[Radar]

Sanctum Spell + (Greater) Arcane Fusion.

Just... Sanctum Spell really.
Add Twin Spell to achieve higher cardinal numbers. :smallbiggrin:

[kardar233]

Add Twin Spell to achieve higher cardinal numbers. :smallbiggrin:

Think you're getting into ordinals by that point.

Oh, there goes the set theory again. I should stop doing that.

[Wings of Peace]

As far as the OP goes, multiple castings of the same spell do not affect each other unless explicitly stated so in the spell description. Even if you cast the spell twice, the second casting has no affect on the first. Therefore, when you break the receptacle, the spell ends no matter how many times you have cast it.

This means that you are now in a new body, an unhappy balor has your new receptacle, and you basically have gotten nowhere. Well, nowhere except making a balor extremely unhappy.

This also assumes the balor has a gem or crystal worth at least 100 gp to use as the focus for the spell. Having taken over a body through Magic Jar does not take away the requirements for using material components and foci.

You misunderstand, the trick isn't stacking anything, in fact it's abusing the fact they don't stack and what happens when one Magic Jar cancels out another.

[Aspenor]

You misunderstand, the trick isn't stacking anything, in fact it's abusing the fact they don't stack and what happens when one Magic Jar cancels out another.

No, you misunderstand. It does not cancel out the other. It has literally no effect at all on the first casting. I didn't say anything about "stacking."

On Sanctum Spell+Arcane Fusion...it doesn't work like that.

[Gardener]

Think you're getting into ordinals by that point.

Oh, there goes the set theory again. I should stop doing that.

D&D is a great primer to higher mathematics. I learned Markov chains to do an analysis of a build with a chance to gain two more attacks with each attack they made. (Man, Aptitude is a breakable weapon property). Infinite damage loops were my first real introduction to the ideas of different kinds of infinity.

D&D. It's Educational™!

[dextercorvia]

Since no one else has mentioned them:

Dominant Ideal
Linked Power
Psycarnum Infusion

All have abuses on their own, but suppose we wanted to group these together. An Ardent with the Time mantle manifesting Hustle linked to Hustle shared with his Psicrystal can access 6-7 Psionic Foci per round (at the cost of pp), which can be used to fuel Psicarnum Infusion (or just about anything else) but PI has some of the most potential for abuse.

[Necroticplague]

The Alchemists Stone:

Create a wondrous item to these specifications:
Spell: Sanctum Resistance
Continuous Slotless

Cost calculation:
-1x(your caster level)x2000x2

cost=-4000x(your caster level)
Time to make:-4 days per your caster level

So with this trick, you have discovered both time travel, and the secret of creating gold. It gives better results the higher your caster level. Make sure you craft it outside of your sanctum, though.

[squeekenator]

Sanctum Spell + (Greater) Arcane Fusion.

How does this work? You pick a level 4 and a level 1 spell that you know, then you apply sanctum spell as you cast them to change their level. I don't see how you could abuse that.

[Aspenor]

How does this work? You pick a level 4 and a level 1 spell that you know, then you apply sanctum spell as you cast them to change their level. I don't see how you could abuse that.

Some people think that when Sanctum Spell makes a spell -1 effective spell level that means they can cast Arcane Fusion as a level 3 spell, and thus use it inside an Arcane Fusion.

Of course, the rules don't actually work like that.

[Amphetryon]

Some people think that when Sanctum Spell makes a spell -1 effective spell level that means they can cast Arcane Fusion as a level 3 spell, and thus use it inside an Arcane Fusion.

Of course, the rules don't actually work like that.

Could you clarify your interpretation of Effective Spell Level, please?

[squeekenator]

Could you clarify your interpretation of Effective Spell Level, please?

"When you cast this spell, choose any 1st-level sorcerer spell you know and any 4th-level sorcerer spell you know." Arcane fusion is a spell that you know. Arcane fusion with sanctum spell applied to it being cast outside my sanctum is not.

[Veyr]

Actually, Sanctum Arcane Fusion would be a separate spell, and qualify providing it meets the other requirements (which it does). Unlike most metamagic, Sanctum Spell does change a spell's level.

Aspenor, to be frank, you are arguing with some of the most knowledgeable optimizers that 3.5 has ever seen. You're going to need a lot more than the assertion that "the rules don't work like that" in order to convince anyone.

[kardar233]

Aspenor, to be frank, you are arguing with some of the most knowledgeable optimizers that 3.5 has ever seen. You're going to need a lot more than the assertion that "the rules don't work like that" in order to convince anyone.

Not to toot your own horn or anything, right? :smallbiggrin:


D&D is a great primer to higher mathematics. I learned Markov chains to do an analysis of a build with a chance to gain two more attacks with each attack they made. (Man, Aptitude is a breakable weapon property). Infinite damage loops were my first real introduction to the ideas of different kinds of infinity.

D&D. It's Educational™!

How do you do that? Lightning Maces plus Avalanche of Blades or something?

[Veyr]

Not to toot your own horn or anything, right? :smallbiggrin:
...it was my first post in the thread, dude. I wasn't referring to myself, I was primarily referring to the OP, though plenty of others in the thread also qualify for the compliment.

I certainly don't.

[Amphetryon]

How do you do that? Lightning Maces plus Avalanche of Blades or something?Lightning Maces + Aptitude Kukri coupled with a method of obviating 1s on the d20 gets you most of the way there. Olo Demonsbane made infamous use of a similar method in the original Test of Spite duels in order to critical hit himself in the face with "bullets" until he ran out of ammo.

Link For Great Justice (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6968457#post6968457)

[Kobold-Bard]

My only original "trick" that is worth mentioning is that Generalist Wizardry gives you the class ability to cast spells based on what spells you can already cast (without requiring that said spells come from class levels to begin with). That allows all sorts of shenanigans. My favorite, of course is the Versatile Domain Generalist that can cast 9ths at first level.

Dude, wut? Do expand on this please.

Actually expand on both please.

[Veyr]

I'm guessing that it goes something like this:
Elven Generalist gets an extra spell slot of his highest level.
The Domain ACF gives you a spell slot of your highest level.
If you have both, you can combine them with Versatile Spellcaster to get a spell slot of the next level.
Since you can now cast spells of that level, your Elven Generalist spell slot should move up in level, and you should gain another Domain spell slot. Your Domains also mean that you do know spells of that level.
Rinse and repeat?
I'm really dubious about using the Elven Generalist spell slot to get a higher level spell, and then it moving to a new spell level, though. I assume dextercorvia is including something I'm missing to account for that.

[Telonius]

That's "a" host, as in any host. Break the first jar and you are back in your own body or dead.

I think I'm going to agree with HugeC on this one. Look at the whole description:


If the spell ends while you are in a host, you return to your body (or die, if it is out of range of your current position), and the soul in the magic jar returns to its body (or dies if it is out of range).

Even if the spell considered Creature B's body as "your" body, Balor A would still be shunted back to its own body as soon as you break the receptacle.

You also run into a problem with the following...


Unlike most other living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit.

Since outsiders have a unified body and soul, if you "force the soul" of the Balor into the jar, you've also forced the body into the jar.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

If you're gating in Balors, you might as well make a Balor Bomb and be done with it.

Besides, I'd rather own the body of a Solar. See also: Team Solar for particulars.

[dextercorvia]

Dude, wut? Do expand on this please.

Actually expand on both please.


I'm guessing that it goes something like this:
Elven Generalist gets an extra spell slot of his highest level.
The Domain ACF gives you a spell slot of your highest level.
If you have both, you can combine them with Versatile Spellcaster to get a spell slot of the next level.
Since you can now cast spells of that level, your Elven Generalist spell slot should move up in level, and you should gain another Domain spell slot. Your Domains also mean that you do know spells of that level.
Rinse and repeat?
I'm really dubious about using the Elven Generalist spell slot to get a higher level spell, and then it moving to a new spell level, though. I assume dextercorvia is including something I'm missing to account for that.

Close. Domain Wizard gives you a slot at every level you can cast (but they are essentially bonus slots, so you need Generalist). It also gives you a spell known at every level, which is important for Versatile Spellcaster. Up through 6th level spells you aren't relying on the Generalist slot for VS, since you have a 20 Int. But it keeps going anyway. With 2 5th level slots, I have the ability to cast a 6th level spell, so GW gives me a 6th level slot. That kicks in the next Domain slot. I have 2 slots and can cast a 7th level spell continuing the cycle. You may say, that as soon as GW "moves" to 7th, I can no longer have two 6th level slots, and you would be correct, but because I can cast a 6th level spell from my 7th level slot, I retain the Domain slot (and gain one for 7th level, too).

[Claudius Maximus]

Some people think that when Sanctum Spell makes a spell -1 effective spell level that means they can cast Arcane Fusion as a level 3 spell, and thus use it inside an Arcane Fusion.

Of course, the rules don't actually work like that.

Upon further consideration I think I agree that this does not work, since Sanctumification happens after selection.


Aspenor, to be frank, you are arguing with some of the most knowledgeable optimizers that 3.5 has ever seen. You're going to need a lot more than the assertion that "the rules don't work like that" in order to convince anyone.

I think I lost any remote claim to such a title a while ago. I didn't even reread Sanctum Spell before proposing that. I don't even really understand Doc Roc's trick.

[TroubleBrewing]

I think I lost any remote claim to such a title a while ago. I didn't even reread Sanctum Spell before proposing that. I don't even really understand Doc Roc's trick.

I'd still qualify you. Anybody who can judge a ToS for a given system simply HAS to be better than just halfway capable at optimizing.

[Doc Roc]

I'd still qualify you. Anybody who can judge a ToS for a given system simply HAS to be better than just halfway capable at optimizing.

I'd still qualify you. I'm going to take my trick back into the shop, I think it's save-able.

[squeekenator]

Actually, Sanctum Arcane Fusion would be a separate spell, and qualify providing it meets the other requirements (which it does). Unlike most metamagic, Sanctum Spell does change a spell's level.

Okay, never mind. I had a well-constructed and cutting essay typed out that would tear down your argument when I decided that hey, just to be sure, I might as well check the Complete Mage errata and see if they changed how it works with metamagic. They did. Whoops. You're completely correct.

[Kobold-Bard]

Close. Domain Wizard gives you a slot at every level you can cast (but they are essentially bonus slots, so you need Generalist). It also gives you a spell known at every level, which is important for Versatile Spellcaster. Up through 6th level spells you aren't relying on the Generalist slot for VS, since you have a 20 Int. But it keeps going anyway. With 2 5th level slots, I have the ability to cast a 6th level spell, so GW gives me a 6th level slot. That kicks in the next Domain slot. I have 2 slots and can cast a 7th level spell continuing the cycle. You may say, that as soon as GW "moves" to 7th, I can no longer have two 6th level slots, and you would be correct, but because I can cast a 6th level spell from my 7th level slot, I retain the Domain slot (and gain one for 7th level, too).

http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/funny-pictures-cat-is-amazed.jpg

[Doc Roc]

Okay, never mind. I had a well-constructed and cutting essay typed out that would tear down your argument when I decided that hey, just to be sure, I might as well check the Complete Mage errata and see if they changed how it works with metamagic. They did. Whoops. You're completely correct.

For that? You get a cookie. A cookie of significant size.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

For that? You get a cookie. A cookie of significant size.

One with Greater Chocolate Chip and Improved Sprinkles applied to it.

[Gice]

This calls for a maximized, widened, extended (you will need it by now) cookie using divine meta-cookie.

[dextercorvia]

This is a little specific, for this thread, but here is a fun 6th level build

Azurin Swordsage1/Warblade1/Crusader1/Totemist2/Wizard1

Martial Variant of Wizard from UA

Feats:

Bonus: ??
1: ??
3: Extra Granted Maneuver
6: Share Soulmeld
W1: Martial Study: White Raven Tactics

This is a variant on the Idiot Crusader Trick. You pick all of the other crusader maneuvers with your Swordsage and Warblade levels, leaving only the two Devoted Spirit Maneuvers for the Crusader to learn. EGM and White Raven Tactics balance out. With no maneuvers left each turn, they refresh, and 3 of your 3 maneuvers known are "randomly granted".

For this, you need a familiar, one size category or more smaller than you. Take some ranks in Ride. Now, get a special "saddle" for your familiar, so that it can ride you. Therefore you will share a turn with your rider. On that turn, use the Manticore Belt to strike for 3 attacks, shared with your familiar for another 3. Now as a swift action, initiate WRT on your familiar. He immediately gets another turn at the next initiative count, and since you are his mount, so do you. This gets fun after you get south of the lowest initiative count, since you can just keep going, and nobody gets a new round.

[WinWin]

If you're redoing the Balor trick, try and find another method of obtaining a Balor other than Gate.

By the time a wizard can cast 9's, Shapechange is available.

[squeekenator]

This calls for a maximized, widened, extended (you will need it by now) cookie using divine meta-cookie.

I... don't think I can eat a cookie that big, to be honest. But thank you anyway, it's the thought that counts. <3

[Gardener]

Lightning Maces + Aptitude Kukri coupled with a method of obviating 1s on the d20 gets you most of the way there. Olo Demonsbane made infamous use of a similar method in the original Test of Spite duels in order to critical hit himself in the face with "bullets" until he ran out of ammo.

Link For Great Justice (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6968457#post6968457)

Lighning Maces, Roundabout Kick (Complete Warrior) and Aptitude Kukris. Every threat gets an extra attack, and so does every confirmed crit, so a confirmed crit gives you two new attacks, either or both of which can also crit. The build in question was a theoretical one using Disciple of Dispater 8 and Improved Critical (Kukri) as well, to get a threat range of 8-20. JaronK wrote it up back on the WotC TO boards, because he couldn't work out what its expected number of attacks per round was. Turns out, with a >50% threat chance the expected number of attacks diverges to infinity. Took us a whole lot of arguing and various higher-maths theorems to prove it, though.

[Radar]

Lighning Maces, Roundabout Kick (Complete Warrior) and Aptitude Kukris. Every threat gets an extra attack, and so does every confirmed crit, so a confirmed crit gives you two new attacks, either or both of which can also crit. The build in question was a theoretical one using Disciple of Dispater 8 and Improved Critical (Kukri) as well, to get a threat range of 8-20. JaronK wrote it up back on the WotC TO boards, because he couldn't work out what its expected number of attacks per round was. Turns out, with a >50% threat chance the expected number of attacks diverges to infinity. Took us a whole lot of arguing and various higher-maths theorems to prove it, though.
If you still remember something from those proofs: did you use Large Deviation methods to estimate the probability of convergence (which is nonzero) or just did an estimate on average? I ask, because it's a fairly typical ruin problem.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

If you still remember something from those proofs: did you use Large Deviation methods to estimate the probability of convergence (which is nonzero) or just did an estimate on average? I ask, because it's a fairly typical ruin problem.

They used both, and compared the results.

Basically, the odds of the combo ending is inversely proportional to the number of iterations. Which is to say, early in the combo it's easier to fail to a bad string. But with every crit, you've got two more chances, and the odds of hitting a string of 1's necessary to end the cycle continues to approach 0.

[Aspenor]

Aspenor, to be frank, you are arguing with some of the most knowledgeable optimizers that 3.5 has ever seen. You're going to need a lot more than the assertion that "the rules don't work like that" in order to convince anyone.

This D&D board is one of the weakest boards in optimization available, to be frank.

Here's how it works:
- Sanctum Spell only changes effective spell level, not actual spell level
- Arcane Fusion checks the actual spell level of a spell, not effective spell level

It's really that simple. Arcane Fusion checks what level spell it is before the metamagic, not after.

[blackjack217]

Born of the Three Thunders requires the spell to be sonic or electricity and to do hit point damage. Needs some Flash Frost Spell + Energy Substitution. (Of course, this is all assuming you can apply metamagic effects in the most beneficial order.)

Also, since Fimbulwinter's area centers on you, better buff up that Reflex save!

or just an explosive locate city bomb.

[Veyr]

This D&D board is one of the weakest boards in optimization available, to be frank.
That is very true. But many of the members you're arguing with are also members at other boards.


Here's how it works:
- Sanctum Spell only changes effective spell level, not actual spell level
- Arcane Fusion checks the actual spell level of a spell, not effective spell level
Complete Arcane defines "effective spell level:

A sanctum spell has an effective spell level higher than its normal level if cast in your sanctum (see below), but if not cast in the sanctum, the spell has an effective spell level 1 lower than normal. All effects dependent on spell level (including save DCs) are calculated according to the adjusted level.(emphasis mine)

"All effects dependent on spell level". Is "whether or not this can fit inside an Arcane Fusion" dependent on spell level? Yes, it is. Thus, Sanctum Spell does make this work.

You would be right if Sanctum Spell did not have that line, but it does. Normally metamagic doesn't change spell level (effective or otherwise), just spell slot, but Sanctum Spell (and Heighten Spell) do change the spell's level.


It's really that simple. Arcane Fusion checks what level spell it is before the metamagic, not after.
Source on that claim? I see nothing in the description of Arcane Fusion that specifies this.

Also, major problem with that interpretation: that means I can cast, say, Twinned Twin-Rayed Empowered Maximized Repeat Echo Enervation (normally, what, a 20-something-th level spell?) with an Arcane Fusion, since Enervation is a 4th level spell before metamagic.

Technically, by strict RAW, I think you can do that, in fact, since as I mentioned, normally metamagic does not change a spell's level, only its spell slot, but I doubt many people know of or bother using that rule (especially since it's problematic in more places than just here). But your interpretation opens that back up again, even if we assume that metamagic does change spell level.

[Gametime]

This D&D board is one of the weakest boards in optimization available, to be frank.

Here's how it works:
- Sanctum Spell only changes effective spell level, not actual spell level
- Arcane Fusion checks the actual spell level of a spell, not effective spell level

It's really that simple. Arcane Fusion checks what level spell it is before the metamagic, not after.

From the Complete Mage errata:


Page 96 – Arcane Fusion
[Addition]
Include clause, “If applying a metamagic feat to a spell, use the adjusted spell level and casting time for purposes of determining eligibility for Arcane Fusion.”

Emphasis mine. About the only way you could interpret it to not work is to insist that a change in "effective spell level" doesn't count as an adjustment in spell level, but given the whole "counts as a lower level spell for basically everything" clause, that seems indefensible.

[Veyr]

From the Complete Mage errata:

Emphasis mine. About the only way you could interpret it to not work is to insist that a change in "effective spell level" doesn't count as an adjustment in spell level, but given the whole "counts as a lower level spell for basically everything" clause, that seems indefensible.
Ah, good, that handles my concerns about a Twinned Twin-Rayed Empowered Maximized Repeat Echo Enervation, and also handily provides a direct counter to Aspenor's claim.

Note, however, that Heighten Spell and Sanctum Spell should have worked the same before and after the Errata thanks to their special wording with respect to the spell's level.

[Radar]

This D&D board is one of the weakest boards in optimization available, to be frank.

Here's how it works:
- Sanctum Spell only changes effective spell level, not actual spell level
- Arcane Fusion checks the actual spell level of a spell, not effective spell level

It's really that simple. Arcane Fusion checks what level spell it is before the metamagic, not after.
Ok, the only part of Arcane Fusion's description, that is relevant here is "choose any X-level sorcerer spell you know". This might be interpreted in a couple of ways:
1. You can only use spells directly from your spells known list without any modifications. This however might indicate (by wording of the sorcerer class features), that a sorcerer can't use metamagic whatsover (metamagiced spells are not on his list).
2. You can apply metamagic to a spell cast in Arcane Fusion, but you look only at the level of that spell. This leads directly to nasty forms of abuse, since metamagic is free by that interpretation (except for Heighten spell).
2 a) You check the spell level before applying metamagic: Sanctum Spell doesn't work, but Heighten Spell becomes free of charge. This leads to an awful abuse of Arcane Fusion by means of Shadowcraft Mage - you can fit a Twinned, Heightened Silent Image (effective level 10th with Earth Spell etc.) as a 1st level spell to imitate Miracle, which is more then capable of duplicating Arcane Fusion. Rinse and repeat.
2 b) You check the spell level after applying metamagic: Sanctum Spell works.
3. You check the spell slot, which a given spell would take instead of it's level. This is the most sane interpretation (no loops or free metamagic), yet is unlikely, since spell levels and spell slots are different things. Sufficiently thinked Shadowcraft Mage might still be able to chug out Miracles from 4th level spell slots, so you still might end up with an Arcane Fusion loop.

By the way: errata for Complete Mage states you should check the adjusted spell level for spells cast through Arcane Fusion. This can either mean 2 b) or 3. I'm not in position to choose between the two, since I can't find a strict definition of "adjusted spell level".

[Veyr]

I'm not sure what the difference between 2b and 3 are.

[Radar]

I'm not sure what the difference between 2b and 3 are.
Disparity between spell level and spell slot used by a given spell. Sanctum Spell lowers the spell level, but doesn't lower the spell slot used. Most metamagic feats don't change the spell level, but change the spell slot used.

Under 2 b) most metamagic feats are free, since they don't change the spell level.

Under 3 Sanctum Spell doesn't work and Arcane Fusion loop is much harder to pull off.

[Veyr]

Oh, I assumed 2b was the errata'd version that used the "adjusted spell level".

[Radar]

Oh, I assumed 2b was the errata'd version that used the "adjusted spell level".
If there is a proper definition of "adjusted spell level", then all the interpretation problems would be solved. As is, both 2 b) and 3 can be legal under errata depending on the definition of "adjusted spell level".

[Veyr]

I suppose that's so, but I'd make the argument that the intent is probably #3, since otherwise the Errata would not have actually changed anything, I think.

[Claudius Maximus]

I believe that option 3 is the case, because Sanctum Spell's adjustment of effective spell level only happens while/after it is cast. Its adjustment of spell slot happens beforehand, and that is the only thing that Arcane Fusion successfully checks with this errata.

Basically, when you cast Arcane Fusion, Sanctum Arcane Fusion is its normal level and spell slot (+0 metamagic). It would only change spell level when it actually gets cast, which is impossible because it is too high to fit into itself.

So the loop doesn't work and I should read things.

[Veyr]

I believe that option 3 is the case, because Sanctum Spell's adjustment of effective spell level only happens while/after it is cast. Its adjustment of spell slot happens beforehand, and that is the only thing that Arcane Fusion successfully checks with this errata.

Basically, when you cast Arcane Fusion, Sanctum Arcane Fusion is its normal level and spell slot (+0 metamagic). It would only change spell level when it actually gets cast, which is impossible because it is too high to fit into itself.

So the loop doesn't work and I should read things.
That's a reasonable interpretation, but I'm not convinced that it's the only one. I'd argue (or, at least, the Devil's Advocate would argue; personally I'd just ban Sanctum Spell out-right) that you are attempting to cast the spell through Arcane Fusion (it specifically says something along the lines of "as if you had cast one spell and then the other"), which I think is enough leeway, at least, to argue that Sanctum Spell applies at the time when you check its validity for Arcane Fusion, since you are casting it.

[Radar]

(...)
So the loop doesn't work and I should read things.
Ingredients:
1. Gnomish Domain (Luck) Wizard with Silent Image.
2. Incantatrix capstone ability.
3. Shadowcraft Mage for Shadow Illusions.
4. Acorn of Far Travel.
5. Feats of note:
- Arcane Thesis (Silent Image)
- Highten Spell
- Earth Spell
- Sanctum Spell
- any other +0 Metamagic Feat (let's pick Invisible Spell for additional breaking)

With Earth Spell and Sanctum Spell we can Highten Silent Image up to 11 from a 9th level spell slot. For mimicing Miracles 10th level is sufficient, so we can cast Miracles from 8th level slots. Now I'm a little fuzzy on Incantatrix and Arcane Thesis, but one of them allowed negative slot adjustment, so including those we have Miracles out of 5th level slot (both can mitigate Highten Spell AFAIK). Adding Invisible Spell allows as to cast Miracles out of 4th level slots. This can be brought down to 1st level slots with more feats.

Now, Miracle is more then capable of duplicating Arcane Fusion.

Adding those two facts, we can activate Arcane Fusion loop. 1st level spell can be a Hightened Silent Image as well and therefore mimic any 6th level Evocation or Conjuration spell.

Additional fun facts:
1. You don't need Arcane Fusion on your spell list, since you cast it through Miracle.
2. There were spells, that allowed you to regain spell slots (lower then the spell in question). I don't remember the exact name thereof, but it would be possible to end the loop with Miracle duplicating such a spell to regain the 4th level spell slot you used to start the loop.

Ehm...

Power! Unlimited power!
*maniacal laughter*

[Veyr]

At some point, I wonder if the Plane of Shadows runs out of shadowstuff for your Shadow Miracles. I know it's infinite, but so is your loop, if you want it to be. Unfortuantely, my Cantoran set theory is very weak...

[Private-Prinny]

*Shadow Miracle snip*

Why do people think this works? The fact that you've accessed spells from outside of your list does not make them spells from inside the Sor/Wiz list.

[Radar]

At some point, I wonder if the Plane of Shadows runs out of shadowstuff for your Shadow Miracles. I know it's infinite, but so is your loop, if you want it to be. Unfortuantely, my Cantoran set theory is very weak...
Assuming Shadow Illusions take a specific volume of this shadowstuff, then we can cut Plane of Shadows into discrete ammount of such pieces. Now we can set a function between iterations of Shadow Miracles and the Plane of Shadow. It can either go through the whole Plane of Shadow or leave as much of it, as you want - even an infinite part thereof.

Problem arise, if you menage to cast Twinned Miracles out of 4th level slot, because such a process will give you Aleph_1 Miracles and for that many Miracles Plane of Shadow won't be nearly enough.

[Elvencloud]

What is this I don't even
I was going to type this exact reaction.

[TroubleBrewing]

Beatcha to it.

Most of Doc's threads leave me with that reaction. Check out the Jakeverse thread sometime.

[Radar]

Why do people think this works? The fact that you've accessed spells from outside of your list does not make them spells from inside the Sor/Wiz list.
Yes, it might be the case. Frankly, I've seen Shadow Miracles in various Handbooks and other threads involving Shadowcraft Mage and assumed, it's the generaly agreed interpretation of Domain Wizard ACF and other effects adding spells to you list.
The most important point of this interpretation is (I think) the wording of Wizard class: "A wizard casts arcane spells which are drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list." The argument is, if Domain Wizard alters this sentence, then it should alter any analogous statement as well. There might be more to it, but I haven't seen any detailed discussion on the topic.

[dextercorvia]

Sanctum may not work for Arcane Fusion, but it works for Mage's Lucbration.

A Sanctum Repeating Mage's Lucubration can give you NI spell slots.

Step 1: Prepare 2 copies of SRML.
Step 2: Cast any spell that is effectively 5th level or lower.
Step 3: Cast SRML targeting that spell.
Step 4: Cast SRML targeting the last SRML.
Step 5: ????
Step 6: Profit

For extra fun, combine with the method of your choice of using spell slots... Versatile Spellcaster, Spontaneous Domain ACF....

[dextercorvia]

Was it something I said? Surely there is a game breaking combo that hasn't been unearthed yet...

[Gardener]

If you still remember something from those proofs: did you use Large Deviation methods to estimate the probability of convergence (which is nonzero) or just did an estimate on average? I ask, because it's a fairly typical ruin problem.
Shneeky more or less covered it. I can really only remember the last section I did and that it inspired me to learn Markov chains, but my last effort was:

1. Assume all crits confirm. Then each attack has a 55% chance to increase the number of remaining attacks by one (one resolved, two extra), and a 45% chance to reduce the number by one (one resolved, no extra). This is very slightly better than the actual case, but it'll do for an upper bound.
2. Initially, you have 9 attacks. The attack chain ends when you have 0 attacks. Calculate the probability of the attack chain ending after precisely n attacks in terms of n.
3. Take the sum of the result of (2) from 9 to infinity. This is the chance of the attack chain ending after any finite number of attacks. The value obtained was substantially lower than 50%, meaning the attack chain continues forever most of the time.

I think the result I got at the time was something like 8% chance of failure at any length, though I'm now suspicious I made a pretty big mistake. I'm still confident it won't rise above 50%, though.

[g3taso]

Doc Roc, this is a spiffy idea and I realized it can be taken even further.

1. Cast Magic Jar and possess creature "A", and then cast Magic Jar and possess creature "B".
2. Use Mindrape to instill a loyalty and submission to your will unknown outside of simulacrums to the soul of creature A while the soul is still in the magic jar.
a. Break and jar and bring the soul back as a splendid and completely loyal intelligent undead minion, or
b. Break the jar and raise the creature back from the dead (again, completely loyal) including reincarnation if you don't have anything better
c. Have a new body ready, like the body of creature "B".

Why waste a perfectly good creature? Having a new body is nice, but also getting a minion with unquestioned loyalty is even better.