Starcraft 2 Thread 6-Rax: All-in

[Turalisj]

I only play custom maps like Squadron Defense and Hero Attack....

[Karoht]

What about parking a thor next to whatever you want to keep safe? They have really long range, which means if the mutas want to deal with it, they have to fly over there, which gives you time to destroy them with stimmed marines. It's a costly investment for base defense, but mutas aren't cheap either.IMO.
Any unit that takes up supply (and in the case of the Thor, takes up rather a lot of it) needs to be used rather than parked or it can be a considerable waste. It is a habit I had to get out of, as I used to leave Goliaths parked in nests of Siege Tanks back in BW. Thors have too short a range for that to work now, beyond a temporary defensive position.



I think turrets are 100min, actually.Further reinforcing my point, VS the cost of a Thor which is considerably more (and gas) and takes no supply. And it breaks Stealth.

[faceroll]

So I am a dedicated random player (never picked a race other than random in all league games), rank 1 in silver league :smallcool:

Terran is by far my worst race, zerg my strongest.

I just finished a TvT game, and won, despite my opponent having better macro. In fact, I was 20,000 points under my opponent when he ragequit. :smallbiggrin:

How did I do it? Hellion + banshee + viking. Holy crap it was awesome. He'd roll at me with a huge mess of tanks, rines, and marauders. I'd wait until his army was on the move, roll in with 3/1 blueflame hellions, and KILL ALL THOSE STUPID MARINES. Banshees would clean up.

He made some grave strategic mistakes, though. He pushed for the win as soon as he curb stomped half my main, which left his units vulnerable in the middle of the map. All those rines & tanks were easy pickings for my hellions and banshees on his flanks. :smallsmile:

That's a hell of a combo in TvT. It's mobile, relatively cheap, and between cloaks and drops, incredibly offensively powered. If I was a better player, I could easily see taking map control and having a lot of expos while your opponent scrambled to keep the banshees & hellions out.


I suspect the reason he said that (and the reason I missed it) are one and the same. Too much Brood War.

Haha, I still want to wait until 200 min until I build a factory.

[Suedars]

IMO.Further reinforcing my point, VS the cost of a Thor which is considerably more (and gas) and takes no supply. And it breaks Stealth.

Thors can move out with your army. Turrets can't.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

If you absolutely cannot kill everything and still win, kill tech buildings. First gut their lair/hive, then their spawning pool, then their infestation pit. Reclimbing the tech tree takes forever for zerg and production is useless if you can't produce anything from it.

However, if you have their base torched, just leave the banshees and hellions to kill buildings and ground troops, then send the ravens and vikings to save the base.

Take out his hatch. If he can't produce larva, his tech buildings are meaningless.You've just removed his ability to produce any unit, which means you win.

[faceroll]

Take out his hatch. If he can't produce larva, his tech buildings are meaningless.You've just removed his ability to produce any unit, which means you win.

He's probably got 2 to 4 more hatches around.

[Turalisj]

Everything can be solved with the right amount of nukes. :smallbiggrin:

[Spartacus]

Haha, I still want to wait until 200 min until I build a factory.

This. So much.

[Kyeudo]

Take out his hatch. If he can't produce larva, his tech buildings are meaningless.You've just removed his ability to produce any unit, which means you win.

If he has no tech buildings left, which is a faster thing to kill than all the hatcheries he has on the map, he can't produce anything that can attack. From there, it's just mop up.

[Karoht]

I go Spire/Air tech first, then Hatch, variable to tech level and number of bases.

IE-You have a ground only force of Mauraders/Zealots/Roaches.

If the enemy can produce Muta's, and can produce them in time, 3-7 Muta's can potentially win the encounter and hold the line. The same can't be necessarily said of 14 zerglings or 7 roaches. Ultra's will take a while to build, by which point you can deal with them, or maybe not. You'll probably kill the Hatch before they finish building, at which point you can just retreat really.

On the other hand, if they have another base, they might also have a spare of X tech building. If I go Zerg air I always build a second Spire just for that contingency. As such, wasting the time to kill the tech building can mean the difference in time between killing the hatch, and reinforcements moving in from another base as well as fresh units building at the base you're trying to kill, preventing you from killing the hatch.

[The Glyphstone]

Is it common for upper-rank Zergs to upgrade multiple Lairs/Hives? If your opponent doesn't have extras, nuking the Lair/Hive and a T2 tech building or two (assuming you've lasted to T2 units) might be a good strategy in terms of time he'll need to recover.

[Legoshrimp]

Not that I have seen. I guess you could when its late game and your maxed in case your main is dropped, but other wise its a waist of money.

[Eldariel]

NA Battle.net Invitationals (http://us.battle.net/blizzcon/en/tournaments/us-regionals/) going on right now. I'm just really glad to see Idra seems to finally be unscrubbifying himself and learning to play things out instead of leaving when he gets messed with.

[Legoshrimp]

NA Battle.net Invitationals (http://us.battle.net/blizzcon/en/tournaments/us-regionals/) going on right now. I'm just really glad to see Idra seems to finally be unscrubbifying himself and learning to play things out instead of leaving when he gets messed with.

Yeah this is good.

Also I forgot how good of a counter mutas are to thors.

[Recaiden]

Yeah this is good.

Also I forgot how good of a counter mutas are to thors.

You mean that the other way around, right? Or do you mean on a micro scale, where the mutas can spread out?

[Eldariel]

Also I forgot how good of a counter mutas are to thors.

The dynamics of that particular match are actually really interesting. Thors control area, forcing Mutas to engage or run at a massive range while Mutas threaten area with mobility and when sufficiently outnumbering them, can dive Thors. In essence, Thors with support generate large no-Muta zones but if Mutas can reach sufficient numbers to overcome the support, the Thor suddenly becomes dead meat.

[Legoshrimp]

Yeah its kind of a pointless thing because you almost never see thors without support but thors without support do pitifully to mutas in a fight. But in any serious game I have only seen thors without support once at all recently.

[term1nally s1ck]

CAN I PLAY ONE ZERG THAT DOESN'T RESPOND TO ME MOVING OUT WITH 'ATTACK HIS BASE WITH EVERYTHING I OWN AND IGNORE DEFENCE COMPLETELY'.

I am fed up with every zerg I play sitting back on the same number of bases and the moment I sent my army out a-move into my base with 100 lings and 20 mutas. I CAN'T DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT. Without splitting my entire freaking army up, or on a map like shakuras, clearing out my entire side of the map so that I can move out to the chokepoint, which means I'm gonna be playing yet another ****ing 80 minute game.

[Kyeudo]

CAN I PLAY ONE ZERG THAT DOESN'T RESPOND TO ME MOVING OUT WITH 'ATTACK HIS BASE WITH EVERYTHING I OWN AND IGNORE DEFENCE COMPLETELY'.

I am fed up with every zerg I play sitting back on the same number of bases and the moment I sent my army out a-move into my base with 100 lings and 20 mutas. I CAN'T DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT. Without splitting my entire freaking army up, or on a map like shakuras, clearing out my entire side of the map so that I can move out to the chokepoint, which means I'm gonna be playing yet another ****ing 80 minute game.

You do realize that the entire reason we do that is because if you move out, we start killing your base before you can start killing our base. We want you to run back and defend. We want you pinned. Otherwise, we lose faster than you do.

When it happens, get harassy. Do something unexpected, like making six reapers and harassing the heck out of our expansions or dropping hellions in our main. Bring out the banshees. Make us zerg panic.

[term1nally s1ck]

I'm just fed up of having to spend over 40 minutes defending so I don't just lose my freakin base. It's ridiculous.

I know how I'm supposed to deal with it, but sitting back defensively and tossing out occasional drops and banshees is SO boring.

[Inhuman Bot]

Yeah its kind of a pointless thing because you almost never see thors without support but thors without support do pitifully to mutas in a fight. But in any serious game I have only seen thors without support once at all recently.

I used Thors in my last serious game, just today!

to fakeout my opponent and actually build vikings but it's still a use

[Eldariel]

I used Thors in my last serious game, just today!

to fakeout my opponent and actually build vikings but it's still a use

Supported Thors aren't bad. They're a very key unit in some compositions and see widespread use in TvZ and TvT. It's just, Thors are a unit that really exists just to take hits and force engagements with light air at long distances. So it really does nothing alone (though it's big, bad and has huge guns).

[faceroll]

What's magic boxing? Heard destiny talking about muta magic boxing on day9's frienday wednesday. Something about getting your units to a-move properly?

Also, have any of you tried "grid" layout? It basically gives all units the same hotkey pattern on your keyboard. I am contemplating using it, since I play random, and don't know all my buildings/spells yet. A big issue I hear is zerg sharing build drone (Q) and queen (Q), and the key to mutate and explode banelings is the same. Zerg is by far my strongest race, and I don't want to screw that up.

Oh yeah, I have to say, watching the minimap is a huge deal! Parking units around the map so you can see stuff move past helps massively!


CAN I PLAY ONE ZERG THAT DOESN'T RESPOND TO ME MOVING OUT WITH 'ATTACK HIS BASE WITH EVERYTHING I OWN AND IGNORE DEFENCE COMPLETELY'.

I am fed up with every zerg I play sitting back on the same number of bases and the moment I sent my army out a-move into my base with 100 lings and 20 mutas. I CAN'T DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT. Without splitting my entire freaking army up, or on a map like shakuras, clearing out my entire side of the map so that I can move out to the chokepoint, which means I'm gonna be playing yet another ****ing 80 minute game.

Ahhh, the sound of terran screams are music to my zerg heart. :smallsmile:


I'm just fed up of having to spend over 40 minutes defending so I don't just lose my freakin base. It's ridiculous.

I know how I'm supposed to deal with it, but sitting back defensively and tossing out occasional drops and banshees is SO boring.

How fo you tolerate TvT mirror matches? That **** is STAGNANT.


Supported Thors aren't bad..

I like to support my thors with thors.

[Eldariel]

How fo you tolerate TvT mirror matches? That **** is STAGNANT.

Terran mirror is the single mirror with the most strategic leeway. You have your Tank-based armies, you have your infantry armies; I just play the air army game since I love the Banshee/Viking/Raven/BC microgames. And am not the biggest fan of the SCII tanks; too weak.

[term1nally s1ck]

I play iEchoic, so I nicely bypass the horrible standoffs by breaking his face.

[The Glyphstone]

What's magic boxing? Heard destiny talking about muta magic boxing on day9's frienday wednesday. Something about getting your units to a-move properly?


I think it involves using a normal move, not an A-move, to make your muta bal all fly in a clump atop the target, then hitting Stop to force them to disperse and be safe from the aoe missile attacks.

[term1nally s1ck]

Basically, your units clump up if you click nearby, attack-move, or target a unit.

To magic-box, click REALLY far away, using the minimap to start moving past the thor, then hit hold position right when they end up over the thor. No clumping = no splash damage = thor's anti-air mostly neutralised.

[Spartacus]

Magic boxing your units is a way to make them stay spread out when you move them, so they don't take the splash damage from things (mainly Thors). It was used in Brood War against Corsairs, mainly.

As always, Liquipedia (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Magic_Boxes) has more.

[faceroll]

Ohh yeah, you target outside their attack range, and the units move in formation. I'll have to start practicing that. Thanks for the link, Spartacus.

Have you guys noticed how little things can get you big edges, as long as you keep macro up? Like harassing a terran when he's trying to wall off by running your worker around to keep the barracks from going up, followed by attacking the scv on the barracks.

At that point in the game, all you're doing is hitting 5e, 5sd, or 5s, anyway, so the micro isn't really going to hurt the macro.

I also like making early lings on small maps to keep the enemy locked up. At my league level, early aggression causes people to turtle. Sure, it hurts macro a little in the short run, but gaining map control is usually worth it.

[Tavar]

I only play custom maps like Squadron Defense and Hero Attack....

Well, the Saturday group does do custom maps. Also, I do like to do custom maps, the only issue is that it's difficult to know which ones are actually good.

Also, just to let everyone know, it might be some time before I can get on tonight. Up visiting my Grandmother, you know.

[faceroll]

Holy crap, point defense drone is unfair! Combined with banshees, goodbye static d....

[term1nally s1ck]

Holy crap, point defense drone is unfair! Combined with banshees, goodbye static d....

:smallbiggrin: Welcome to my game.

[Eldariel]

Holy crap, point defense drone is unfair! Combined with banshees, goodbye static d....

GOODBYE THORS! That's what I like about 'em. And goodbye Mutas/Vikings/whatever-else-stupid-I'm-dealing-with. Stalkers, Roaches, you name it, it's useless!

[Legoshrimp]

Except marines. :smalltongue:


Also if I am not on just send me a meassage on steam/xfire/msn messenger/skype and i'll try to get on in a relatively soon manner. Im ight be in the middle of something and need to finish it tho. Also I am legoshrimp on all of those, startling I know, except messenger which i'm [email protected],

[Silverraptor]

Terran mirror is the single mirror with the most strategic leeway. You have your Tank-based armies, you have your infantry armies; I just play the air army game since I love the Banshee/Viking/Raven/BC microgames. And am not the biggest fan of the SCII tanks; too weak.

I played a terran game where it was anything but static. Here's the replay. (http://www.sc-replay.com/replay/11-08-11/169404-NebulaRaider-VS-Silverraptor.html) Late game is still by far my weakest game. I know what I need to do, it just involes me training myself to do it.

I'll also want to post a couple other replays in a moment, including a cheesing protoss that accused me of hacking because his cheese failed.:smallbiggrin: Another is my qualifier game that got me my zergling portrait. That's right, I'm now playing straight zerg until I get a minimum of 50 wins, or more if I feel I need more practice with them. Then its a quick run through with all the races before going complete random.

Edit: And here are the replays. Apparently stopping a cheese is hacking. (http://www.sc-replay.com/replay/11-08-11/171071-SFP-VS-Silverraptor.html?justUp=1) I can also hold my own ZvZ against gold league zerg. (http://www.sc-replay.com/replay/13-08-11/171072-FozzieBear-VS-Silverraptor.html?justUp=1) And Idra says Zerg can't beat protoss.:smallamused: (http://www.sc-replay.com/replay/13-08-11/171074-QAB-VS-Silverraptor.html?justUp=1)

[Dralnu]

Terran mirror is the single mirror with the most strategic leeway. You have your Tank-based armies, you have your infantry armies; I just play the air army game since I love the Banshee/Viking/Raven/BC microgames. And am not the biggest fan of the SCII tanks; too weak.

That's one of two reasons why I chose to play Terran:
1) I LOVE GHOSTS. Always did. And nukes.
2) It has the most entertaining and diverse mirror match, which is important if 33% of you games are mirror.

[Dralnu]

So.. I may switch to zerg. It feels better for me than terran. As terran I can do some awesome micro but then my macro tanks. Like I'll massacre the zerg with hellion / banshee but then I'm up 2k minerals and my 2nd base is hardly working. Or distracting with my army at a person's front to do hellion drops in his base, same problem. When I macro though, I macro really well. Minerals/gas at pro-level lows and all the buildings are going up at the right time no queuing either.

I started playing some bot zerg games to get the mechanics and it feels right. Don't worry about offense, macro macro macro, scout and plan against the other dude's offensive strat, annihilate it maybe counterattack lings when he pushes out, macro macro macro, DESTROY. Seems very one-or-the-other.

[Kyeudo]

I think it involves using a normal move, not an A-move, to make your muta bal all fly in a clump atop the target, then hitting Stop to force them to disperse and be safe from the aoe missile attacks.

Don't use stop. Use Hold Position. Stop can cause them to lose an attack or move towards the thor and clump up again.

[The Glyphstone]

Don't use stop. Use Hold Position. Stop can cause them to lose an attack or move towards the thor and clump up again.

Okay, so I was almost right.

[Eldariel]

Don't use stop. Use Hold Position. Stop can cause them to lose an attack or move towards the thor and clump up again.

Patrol works too :smallwink: (though it can do some strange stuff and obviously isn't optimal for Magic Box; but many other micro maneuvers prefer Patrol)

[Inhuman Bot]

Supported Thors aren't bad. They're a very key unit in some compositions and see widespread use in TvZ and TvT. It's just, Thors are a unit that really exists just to take hits and force engagements with light air at long distances. So it really does nothing alone (though it's big, bad and has huge guns).

The Thors were pretty useless in actual combat, in my case.

I just miss Goliaths, really.

Edit:

Do you need a reason to like IdrA?

Here you go. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jB_oBi14glU)

[Thiyr]

So. I just had two good lessons today:

1) good basic mechanic aren't just important, they're really, REALLY freakin' important. I specify this because my first game today was one I was in a fairly good position overall, but he was covering basics a decent bit better than me, so by sheer force of numbers I was outdone.

2) When you think your idea is stupid, it probably is. While the real root of my second loss was that I didn't scout ahead a bit (not that I would have noticed the ghost in the first place), being caught out of position like i was certainly made it go from difficult to unwinnable. I handed him the battle (and the game, considering how early it was) on a silver platter.

On the upside, I can easily use my not being able to play much due to my (relatively) new job as a wonderful excuse. Hopefully, i can actually not fail these next few games.

[BobVosh]

That's one of two reasons why I chose to play Terran:
1) I LOVE GHOSTS. Always did. And nukes.
2) It has the most entertaining and diverse mirror match, which is important if 33% of you games are mirror.

Actually for terran it is slightly higher, about right for toss, and lower for zerg. Just by pure numbers of zerg-toss-terran players.

[Tychris1]

Hey guys, I'm getting back into Starcraft 2 and I want to know of a good way that I can practice the basics with Zerg without going into Ladder and getting my face wrecked.

[Kyeudo]

Hey guys, I'm getting back into Starcraft 2 and I want to know of a good way that I can practice the basics with Zerg without going into Ladder and getting my face wrecked.

Custom games with a practice partner.

[Thiyr]

Hey guys, I'm getting back into Starcraft 2 and I want to know of a good way that I can practice the basics with Zerg without going into Ladder and getting my face wrecked.

Find me at some point and play games with me until you can stomp my face in, like Kyeudo said.

That goes for everyone.

Yes, even you.

And I'm happy that a few of my ideas on how to improve my 2v2 team with a friend of mine seem to be helping. I still need to get him to make more workers (and by association more unit producing facilities), as his worker count makes me want to cry some games*, but vocalizing a more detailed plan than just "we push at 7 minutes" "we're gonna tech" or "I'm going for this tech path" really did help. Nothing huge, just "(on Dischord IV)Open with reaper harass, I'm going to fast expand. Stop making reapers at 7 minutes. At the 12 minute mark, we both expand to the middle golds and hold those." kept our timings a lot more on key, it kept us knowing what we wanted to do for the crucial early game, which is where we end up losing so much because of disorganization.

I think if we keep doing organization, and work on just getting our production down smoother instead of relying on shutting them down with weird harass or unit rushes, we'll see a sharp increase in our ability to not suck. Common sense for here by now, but apparently saying something helps it stick. Any tips on any of this, be it ways to make a more solid plan, or to help with his worker count?

*I tend to be near the top of the workers created chart, most often tied at around 60ish workers, sometimes moving closer to 80-90, with tonight having me break the 100 mark at one time while expanding to well over half the map, while...well, i'm happy to see him break 30 most games. He has tried to argue that terran relies on its mules, so its worker count will never be as high as protoss/zerg who have chronoboost and puke/droning, but....needless to say I disagree. Especially because that last game had me chronoing my workers a lot less than normal. If I have so many that I need to throw away 20 to get myself more supply, I think its reasonable for him to get 40+ and mules.

[term1nally s1ck]

mid-game, terran still need at least 50ish workers. You want 2 saturated mineral patches, and like 8 geysers.

[Tzekan]

Heya, my Zerg exploits are getting better as i get a grasp on what i'm doing, but Protoss heavy air is posing a major problem. The big one was this match where it was clear that something was coming, but i have no idea how on earth you're supposed to block that many voidrays...

https://rapidshare.com/files/3222748274/not_sure_what_to_do.SC2Replay

[term1nally s1ck]

Hydras and mutas are both super cost efficient against void rays.

[BobVosh]

Heya, my Zerg exploits are getting better as i get a grasp on what i'm doing, but Protoss heavy air is posing a major problem. The big one was this match where it was clear that something was coming, but i have no idea how on earth you're supposed to block that many voidrays...

https://rapidshare.com/files/3222748274/not_sure_what_to_do.SC2Replay

You should keep canceling and reapplying that extractor so you can run around the base once again. Also get your overlord down to the base so you can send it in a suicide run to scout. You scouted him at about 5 minutes and his VRs came at 13. So that was 8 minutes of not scouting.

You did have the ling out, which is nice, but not quite enough. Also feel free to spread those overlords in the blank spaces between bases. They can defeat drops before they get to the base, and will warn you about incoming VRs. You had several spores made but nowhere near where he attacked. If you had advance warning you could have easily re-burrow those somewhere useful.

However the biggest thing is this: Scout and you would be fine.

[Legoshrimp]

Interesting... Huk joined EG.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=255528
http://www.myeg.net/

From what I have seen EG really wanted huk so they offered him a lot more then liquid was.

Also interesting at least if the Battle.net NA invitational is anything to go off of Idra is being less bad. Also Idra is going back to Korea, and going to be living with Huk! :smallamused:

I don't really foresee that Huk will get much better because of practicing with Idra and PuMa, but I could really see this helping Idra get into a better mental state with all of this.

[Dralnu]

So sick of terran QQ. It's like every other game when I say "gl hf" I get the response "terran OP". Really, mr. gold/platinum? You think that not only you're an expert on game balance, but you're at such a competitive level that any mistake on your part is attributed to XYZ race being OP instead of, you know, being your fault?

This was the last game I had. (http://www.sc-replay.com/replay/15-08-11/175859-Rommel-VS-TacOxRemoT.html?justUp=1) So much QQ right off the bat I HAD to cheese the sucker. Doesn't even put spore crawlers down when he scouts the banshees. Yeah man, terran sooooo op! 3/5 of my last games had qq. :smallsigh:

It just further cements my decision to switch to zerg. Apparently you can't complain about zerg being op ever. Maybe I can finally play the game without constant whining.

[term1nally s1ck]

Actually, right now everyone is whining about infestors being OP.

[Dralnu]

Actually, right now everyone is whining about infestors being OP.

People complain about zerg too?!?! :smallfurious:

Jeez, just get ghosts or high templar.

[term1nally s1ck]

Mhmm. People like whining. Even toss get complaints about deathball op.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Mhmm. People like whining. Even toss get complaints about deathball op.

And M&M&M isn't?

Typical Deathball vs Typical BioBall is a slaughtermatch. If Deathball has colossus support, it tends to edge out ahead, but without it, bioball steamrolls any gate-tech deathball.

[Spartacus]

The deathball isn't a deathball without colossi. The deathball is typically a mix of Colossi, Void Rays, Stalkers and Sentries in various proportions. Zealots typically sneak in there because you may have noticed that the deathball is incredibly gas-heavy.

[Kyeudo]

Actually, right now everyone is whining about infestors being OP.

They are and aren't at the same time.

Infestors have turned ZvZ into a monoculture. It's all about the Infestor. Roach/Infestor, Zergling/Infestor, Ultras to deal with Infestors, and so on. It really needs to change.

Against Terran, Infestors can destroy so much of what they have almost single-handedly its funny. Terran has to find some way to stop the Infestor from doing its thing or they lose. That means Banshees, Ghosts, or truckloads of tanks.

Only toss seems to have no large trouble handling Infestors. Gateway units are usually durable enough to take some fungals and keep killing zerglings, Colossi are like mobile tanks, and so on.

[term1nally s1ck]

at the pro level at least, the toss are complaining the most.

[Spartacus]

I suspect it is due to the fact that High Templar are nowhere close to as effective at dealing with Infestors as Ghosts.

[term1nally s1ck]

HT vs Ghost is just a micro war. The toss players know they need about as many HTs as they have ghosts.

Why do toss see 12 infestors, make 3 HT, then whine when the 6 surviving infestors rip them apart?

[Spartacus]

I mean HT are not as good at Ghosts when it comes to dealing with Infestors.

[term1nally s1ck]

And infestors are *even worse* at dealing with HTs.

1 HT needs 50 energy to feedback 1 infestor.

1 Infestor needs 200 energy to use 3 fungals to kill HTs.

The HT/Infestor fight is all micro. The same as the HT Ghost fight, only even better for the toss player, because they can burn a LOT of infestor energy even in the worst case.

Why is the ghost not seeing any hate, but the infestor is?

[Slayed_Prophet]

And infestors are *even worse* at dealing with HTs.

1 HT needs 50 energy to feedback 1 infestor.

1 Infestor needs 200 energy to use 3 fungals to kill HTs.

The HT/Infestor fight is all micro. The same as the HT Ghost fight, only even better for the toss player, because they can burn a LOT of infestor energy even in the worst case.

Why is the ghost not seeing any hate, but the infestor is?
Because people forget ideas they once had.
2 words: Infested. Terran.
Just spread them so that they can't hit them all with a psi storm.
Oh, and a NP is fine too.
really, just because we only use one ability doesn't makes it THE ONLY ability.

[Spartacus]

Well, the Ghost does a bunch of damage in a chunk. The Infestor does a bunch of damage and keeps you there so the Zerglings surround you and trap you more so you all die to the Ultras oh god why.

[Legoshrimp]

And infestors are *even worse* at dealing with HTs.

1 HT needs 50 energy to feedback 1 infestor.

1 Infestor needs 200 energy to use 3 fungals to kill HTs.

The HT/Infestor fight is all micro. The same as the HT Ghost fight, only even better for the toss player, because they can burn a LOT of infestor energy even in the worst case.

Why is the ghost not seeing any hate, but the infestor is?

It really has more to do with positioning and the supporting army.

[Slayed_Prophet]

It really has more to do with positioning and the supporting army.

I think that we are talking about pure Infestor vs HT, ignoring support

[Spartacus]

I think that we are talking about pure Infestor vs HT, ignoring support

That would be probably the most useless discussion we could have on the merits of Infestors vs. HTs while still including them.

[term1nally s1ck]

Stalkers and colossi can VERY easily clean that up before it does damage unless you use far too much energy.

I just laugh, cos it seems the community needs the tiniest change EVER to suddenly realise that X unit or upgrade is absurdly good. EDIT: BTW, calling that the next OP unit is the raven. So. Good.

Hell, against toss, I'd say that fungal got *nerfed*. It used to be 8 seconds, without the bonus damage. That's a hell of a long time to be unable to blink, snipe broodlords, or anything. Before that change, I'd suggest that toss had actually no chance against broodlord infestor. It's still stupidly rough, but it's possible to get the blink under the broods, whereas it wasn't really possible before.

And lets not even talk about the change of colour on the picture on blue flame that suddenly made people start using thousands of hellions.

[Slayed_Prophet]

That would be probably the most useless discussion we could have on the merits of Infestors vs. HTs while still including them.

Hey, who said it was useful, I just thought that given his last post. But yeah, it's useless, except if you are playing a monobattle custom map

[Suedars]

I think that we are talking about pure Infestor vs HT, ignoring support

Which is a completely meaningless discussion. Nobody sends unsupported Infestors vs. unsupported HTs, and if they do they deserve to lose.

[Suedars]

Hell, against toss, I'd say that fungal got *nerfed*. It used to be 8 seconds, without the bonus damage. That's a hell of a long time to be unable to blink, snipe broodlords, or anything. Before that change, I'd suggest that toss had actually no chance against broodlord infestor. It's still stupidly rough, but it's possible to get the blink under the broods, whereas it wasn't really possible before.

It was actually a huge buff. Before that change Toss could just roll Zerg over lategame with Colossus/Void Ray. The root on Fungal was pretty irrelevant to that composition, but the huge damage buff that it received allowed Zerg to beat it.


And lets not even talk about the change of colour on the picture on blue flame that suddenly made people start using thousands of hellions.

Hellions were seeing constant usage in both TvZ and TvT and even occasionally in TvP in the GSL for two months before that change. It most likely trickled down from there.

[term1nally s1ck]

It was actually a huge buff. Before that change Toss could just roll Zerg over lategame with Colossus/Void Ray. The root on Fungal was pretty irrelevant to that composition, but the huge damage buff that it received allowed Zerg to beat it.

Huge = 16 damage? Not really. It's the root that lets lings tear units apart. It's the root that makes broodlords untouchable.

[Dralnu]

Does Feedback 1shot full energy Infestors? Regardless, HTs probably are less efficient at countering Infestors than Ghosts, but Infestors wreck the less durable terran army more than toss, and HTs have Storm for the gas-heavy infestor's mineral dump, the zerglings that come in for the real damage. Ghost's AOE answer is the nuke and.. yeah, not as effective...

[term1nally s1ck]

Feedbacking a half energy infestor kills it.

[Kyeudo]

Huge = 16 damage? Not really. It's the root that lets lings tear units apart. It's the root that makes broodlords untouchable.

Actually, the Infestor's DPS output more than doubled. Yes, a single fungal growth only deals a little more damage than it used to against armored targets. However, the Infestor now can have two fungals deal damage in the time it used to take one to deal damage.

The rate of damage now is obscene against some units, particularly against zerglings and marines. Against toss, not so much.

[Suedars]

Does Feedback 1shot full energy Infestors? Regardless, HTs probably are less efficient at countering Infestors than Ghosts, but Infestors wreck the less durable terran army more than toss, and HTs have Storm for the gas-heavy infestor's mineral dump, the zerglings that come in for the real damage. Ghost's AOE answer is the nuke and.. yeah, not as effective...

Roaches use little enough gas that they're fine as a mineral dump and storm isn't particularly good against them.

[term1nally s1ck]

Yeah, it was a good change against terran and zerg.

Against toss, where even now it takes an infestor 10 seconds to actually kill a stalker, and 9.something to kill a zealot....the root was the big deal. Letting the lings surround and do all their damage, letting ultras actually hit something, and letting broodlords be invulnerable, is the main reason it's so good.

In fact, if it did 0 damage against toss, it would still be super good.

[BobVosh]

They are and aren't at the same time.

Infestors have turned ZvZ into a monoculture. It's all about the Infestor. Roach/Infestor, Zergling/Infestor, Ultras to deal with Infestors, and so on. It really needs to change.

Against Terran, Infestors can destroy so much of what they have almost single-handedly its funny. Terran has to find some way to stop the Infestor from doing its thing or they lose. That means Banshees, Ghosts, or truckloads of tanks.

Only toss seems to have no large trouble handling Infestors. Gateway units are usually durable enough to take some fungals and keep killing zerglings, Colossi are like mobile tanks, and so on.

It used to just be roach vs roach, before that baneling vs baneling, before that ling/muta vs ling/muta.

ZvZ was always an odd war of two people doing pretty much the same thing.

[Kyeudo]

It used to just be roach vs roach, before that baneling vs baneling, before that ling/muta vs ling/muta.

ZvZ was always an odd war of two people doing pretty much the same thing.

Not really. I was usually able to fit Hydras into my roach ball and that would swing the tide in my favor. As long as he's doing pure roach and you have at least 2 roaches for every three he has, your army destroys him. There were things you could do against pure roach that also bypassed his army because it was slow, like ling runbys.

Now, Infestors own all.

[BobVosh]

This was the last game I had. (http://www.sc-replay.com/replay/15-08-11/175859-Rommel-VS-TacOxRemoT.html?justUp=1) So much QQ right off the bat I HAD to cheese the sucker. Doesn't even put spore crawlers down when he scouts the banshees. Yeah man, terran sooooo op! 3/5 of my last games had qq. :smallsigh:

Races that build workers and units at the same time is OP? O.o

This guy makes me ashamed to be a zerg.

[Dralnu]

Roaches use little enough gas that they're fine as a mineral dump and storm isn't particularly good against them.

True, but if he's going infestor/roaches, the traditional high stalker count in a protoss army becomes more effective. From what I understand, infestor/ling is there to deal with high stalker counts. I'd assume that roaches would be worked in more to deal with zealots or be meatshields against colossus. I dunno, I usually see infestor/ling primarily, so an actual zerg player would have to step in and clarify.


Races that build workers and units at the same time is OP? O.o

This guy makes me ashamed to be a zerg.

I get this kind of qq so often it's not even funny. That was just the most absurd one to date that put me on tilt. Usually it's zerg whining, but toss loves to QQ when I do a stim timing push, even when said push comes after I held off his 1-base all-in when I fast expand.

My favorite games are when I can have friendly chat with my opponent. Win or lose, after it's over we can discuss what happened, what worked and what didn't, etc. But the amount of d-bags...

[Suedars]

True, but if he's going infestor/roaches, the traditional high stalker count in a protoss army becomes more effective. From what I understand, infestor/ling is there to deal with high stalker counts. I'd assume that roaches would be worked in more to deal with zealots or be meatshields against colossus. I dunno, I usually see infestor/ling primarily, so an actual zerg player would have to step in and clarify.

In a straight up fight stalkers are actually pretty bad against roaches. They really need a good number of sentries supporting them to beat roaches, which the toss probably won't have too many of if he's heavily using HTs.

[Kyeudo]

In a straight up fight stalkers are actually pretty bad against roaches. They really need a good number of sentries supporting them to beat roaches, which the toss probably won't have too many of if he's heavily using HTs.

One on one, a stalker beats a roach. The problem is that two roaches beats a stalker and one stalker costs about as much as two roaches. So stalkers are pretty good against roaches, they just can't mass the right numbers to overcome.

[Suedars]

One on one, a stalker beats a roach. The problem is that two roaches beats a stalker and one stalker costs about as much as two roaches. So stalkers are pretty good against roaches, they just can't mass the right numbers to overcome.

Well yeah, talking about 1 on 1 is pretty meaningless, since that'd mean that zerglings were the worst unit in the game. It is relevant though to note that 1 stalker is the same food as 1 roach, so in the late game when food is more of a constraint than resources, stalkers come out on top.

[Kyeudo]

Well yeah, talking about 1 on 1 is pretty meaningless, since that'd mean that zerglings were the worst unit in the game. It is relevant though to note that 1 stalker is the same food as 1 roach, so in the late game when food is more of a constraint than resources, stalkers come out on top.

And this is why Zerg do things like 300 food pushes. We can make food irrelevant if we macro hard enough.

Besides, when we hit late game, its the Brood Lords and Ultralisks that the stalkers need to worry about.

[Silverraptor]

So sick of terran QQ. It's like every other game when I say "gl hf" I get the response "terran OP". Really, mr. gold/platinum? You think that not only you're an expert on game balance, but you're at such a competitive level that any mistake on your part is attributed to XYZ race being OP instead of, you know, being your fault?

This was the last game I had. (http://www.sc-replay.com/replay/15-08-11/175859-Rommel-VS-TacOxRemoT.html?justUp=1) So much QQ right off the bat I HAD to cheese the sucker. Doesn't even put spore crawlers down when he scouts the banshees. Yeah man, terran sooooo op! 3/5 of my last games had qq. :smallsigh:

It just further cements my decision to switch to zerg. Apparently you can't complain about zerg being op ever. Maybe I can finally play the game without constant whining.

DarkMemnarch played a game against a qq Terran that was just waltzing nothing but marines and thors up his ramp. No tanks, no air. And he kept complaining that infestors are OP.

Unfortunately I can't post the replay for some reason, so I'll post it later.

[BobVosh]

True, but if he's going infestor/roaches, the traditional high stalker count in a protoss army becomes more effective. From what I understand, infestor/ling is there to deal with high stalker counts. I'd assume that roaches would be worked in more to deal with zealots or be meatshields against colossus. I dunno, I usually see infestor/ling primarily, so an actual zerg player would have to step in and clarify.

The way zerg macro works is anything with a gas requirement is pretty much not going to be considered a dump. Roaches are close to breaking this, but then one considers more what larva they have when building them. I would rather more infestors and lings if I have more larva.

I am a diamond zerg, so take that as you will.

[term1nally s1ck]

I thought the reason you go roach to reinforce is the short build time...

[BobVosh]

For the three hundred food push, or the OMG doods in my base! then it is a yes, build roach for how quick. Otherwise my previous statement stands.

[Silverraptor]

How do you get the insane AI to surrender under 5 minutes? I've tried many times on desert oasis but it always surrenders by 5:08 at the earliest.

[term1nally s1ck]

So. Interesting fact.

In 2v2, if you do a 3-rax (2 tech 1 reactor, stim and concussive) and boxer's BF hellion/marine/medivac build, they hit the enemy at roughly the same time. (The 3-rax is slightly delayed waiting for the hellion player.)

This build seems to be basically impossible to hold off if you expand at all, and very hard otherwise. The only person to successfully hold was a terran/zerg who had mass roach and tanks and a wallin with 2 bunkers, and we just went 'lol ok we'll take 3 more bases and tech up'

[TFT]

Hey all.

I'm picking up SC2 after a little bit of a break.(By a little, I mean 2 months, heh.) I've decided in doing this, I'm going to change races.( I'm having issues with Protoss play style, especially PvP metagame, and feel more at home with Terran, especially mech focused.)

The thing is, with both 2 months and race changes: What is the state of the meta game for Terran? Also, how long should I wait before stepping into 1 v 1 again, especially with a new race?

EDIT: In other news, guess who got Plat 1 v 1 right when he switched :smallsigh:. If anyone wants to play, I'll probably be on an in the GITP channel if I'm up at least until wednesday.

[Dragon Elite]

Hey all.

I'm picking up SC2 after a little bit of a break.(By a little, I mean 2 months, heh.) I've decided in doing this, I'm going to change races.( I'm having issues with Protoss play style, especially PvP metagame, and feel more at home with Terran, especially mech focused.)

The thing is, with both 2 months and race changes: What is the state of the meta game for Terran? Also, how long should I wait before stepping into 1 v 1 again, especially with a new race?

My terran playstyle (I'm random, so take all this advice with a liberal pinch of salt) is:

TvT: iEchoic 2factory 2 port hellion/banshee/viking

TvZ: 2rax 2fact marine/tank. Just keep pushing, on some maps you take your natural, if it's too hard to defend, don't.

TvP: Marauders. and late-game, vikings/ghosts.

[Silverraptor]

How do you get the insane AI to surrender under 5 minutes? I've tried many times on desert oasis but it always surrenders by 5:08 at the earliest.

Anyone?

Also, my Random Terran strategies.

TvT: Fast blue flame hellions to stop 5-6 all-ins and drops later on. MMM+T pushing slowly. I'm trying to transition to iEchoic eventually.

TvZ: 3-rax early pressure expand. If the zerg fasts expand, that expansion is non-existant by the time time I'm through with it. If he doesn't, THen I'm an expansion ahead of the zerg.

TvP: MMM+T is so freaking good against Protoss. Its so funny.

[LordShotGun]

How do you get the insane AI to surrender under 5 minutes? I've tried many times on desert oasis but it always surrenders by 5:08 at the earliest.


I'v seen some videos on youtube but they all are outta date. You probably could find a fresher one with some effort.

[Tychris1]

Alright, so one of the most glaring problems of mine in any matchup is my inability to put on any pressure at all in the early game (And alot of the tome late game). Originally I played Zerg but I lose alot more then I win (about 2:1 ratio loss/win) but some people told me that Terran was a better race for handling pressure and putting pressure. So does anyone know what are some good ways/numbers of units/timings for attacking the enemy and containing them?

[BobVosh]

I recommend looking at the wiki on team liquid.
That question is just too open ended to answer. Do you want early pressure into mech play? Against which race? Etc.

[Telos]

How do you get the insane AI to surrender under 5 minutes? I've tried many times on desert oasis but it always surrenders by 5:08 at the earliest.

Part of your problem may be that you're playing on a map with such a long rush distance. I did it on Crossfire, sending a probe on 7 to build a pylon (on 9), forge (on 11) and two cannons on the low ground near his geyser, then went up in his base to keep building more cannons protected by the low ground cannons but in range of his nexus. He may rush those and force a cancel on some, but eventually you'll get some to stick. (Be sure to keep your probe alive, of course!) Once the cannons kill enough units and start damaging his nexus, the computer ggs. For me that was around 4:45.

Hope that helps.

[Telos]

I've been thinking that I should learn to scout early before I start laddering. Early scouting versus the AI doesn't seem to be worth it, and I (perhaps stupidly) have played some Practice League games which of course deny scouting with rocks. So I've never really acquired this skill.

So, my questions are: When do you send out your early scout in different match-ups? (I play T or P, not so much Z yet.) And what do you look for?

Thanks!

[Dragon Elite]

I've been thinking that I should learn to scout early before I start laddering. Early scouting versus the AI doesn't seem to be worth it, and I (perhaps stupidly) have played some Practice League games which of course deny scouting with rocks. So I've never really acquired this skill.

So, my questions are: When do you send out your early scout in different match-ups? (I play T or P, not so much Z yet.) And what do you look for?

Thanks!

As terran, you usually scout at 13 or 9 (with your probe that builds a depot/rax) and as brotoss with at 9 after starting the pylon.

Vs. Zerg, you look for a spawning pool, an expo, and how many gas. No gas and no expo means that an all-in is coming. Gas and no expo means a roach rush/baneling bust is coming, and 2 gas means some tech rush, infestors or muta.

Vs. Protoss, you look if they are going 2gate cyber or 1gate cyber. If they have 2 gateways, you need more rax/gateways.

Vs. Terran, look for a gas and the number of rax. As zerg, no gas means you need roaches NOW, it's a 2-rax or a 1rax expo. don't know about the rest.

And if you want help with zerg, just ask me.

[term1nally s1ck]

'toss scouts with the probe that builds the gateway, or the pylon.

Terran scouts with the SCV that builds a supply depot or the rax.

Zerg scouts with the overlords, and usually with lings. You can also scout with a drone anywhere from 10-14 supply based on what race you're against, the map, and what you want to see coming.

What you are looking for is signs of what he *cannot* be doing.

Against Terran: Check gas, try and survive to see the second building.

No gas early means no tech, so no banshees fast, and either very early aggression with marines, or a fast Expo. Try and survive to scout and see if the next rax goes down early, in which case you're gonna be seeing a 2-rax pressure.

2nd gas before 2nd building means VERY fast high tech. Either fast 2-fac blue flame hellions, blue flame hellion drop, tanks, thor rush, or banshees.

Poke at the front with lings after that initial scout to see what he has there. See if any gas is being spent at the front, and try and figure out what tech he has if he had gas. Check count of marines to determine number of rax.

Against 'toss.

Scout Gas. Scout second building, and DEFINITELY scout how much chronoboost is saved up.

no gas, 1 gate, no chrono saved = 1gate expo.

no gas, 1 gate, saved chrono = 2-gate pressure. He probably has a hidden gateway somewhere.

1 gas, gate+core, LOTS of saved chrono = 4-gate

2nd gas before or immediately after core = either tech, or 3-gate sentry expo. If he has some chrono saved, it's tech (3-gate robo, 2-gate robo expand, blink, or stargate.), if he has none, it's sentry expo OR DTs.

You can determine the difference between the different builds by what units they can afford to make, what units they choose to make, and how many they are making.

Against Zerg:

You're scouting pool timing, expo timing, and gas.

Basically, you want to know 3 things. Is he all-inning, does he have ling speed, and does he have any other tech.

#1 = no expo.

#2 = he has gas. By clicking on it, you'll even know when he'll get speed.

#3 = He gets early gas, and keeps 2-3 guys on it after 100 gas mined.


Against Random: Scout early. The pylon, supply depot, and something like 10 supply on zerg are good times to send one out.

[Winterwind]

Whoops, forgot to post the reminder yesterday. :smallredface:
Eh, let's go for it now, then: Next session today. :smallwink:

[Legoshrimp]

Hmm not many people are on. :(


People should work on fixing this.

[BobVosh]

Hmm not many people are on. :(


People should work on fixing this.

I would have if I saw this. I never have been on with the gitp group.

I'm half tempted to get a vent for us, cuz I love this community definitely would like to play with ya'll.

[Tavar]

Sorry, I was having a party, and getting ready to go back to college.

[Spartacus]

I suggest you look at the OP of the League of Legends thread. There is a Mumble that is largely, but by no means exclusively, used for LoL that doubles as a sort of community chatroom.

[Thiyr]

I would totally have been on, but I kinda work at those hours now. All your fault, lego. All your fault.

[LordShotGun]

Something just popped into my head when watching a protoss game. Currently each race has a macro mechanic, terran have orbital commands, zerg have queens and protoss have cronoboost.

What popped into my head is that while zerg and terran have alternative uses for those mechanics (queens heal and spread creep while terrans have scans, supply drops and mules can heals and do siege tank bombing runs) protoss can only use cronoboost on buildings to decrease time spent making something.

So what I thought was, what if we could use cronoboost on units? For example late game even the best pro protoss players have immense amounts of nexus energy saved up.

So this made me think that is we could use cronoboost on units it would cause shields to instantly start recharging and more quickly recharge (however being attacked still stops the recharge and the cronoboost is lost so no instant in battle healing) and energy capable units would gain a faster rate of regeneration.

However I DO NOT want cronoboost on units to increase movement speed or attack speed and I can see many instances of that being overpowered (like colossi).

[Suedars]

Well Terrans only get more money from their mules, and zerg only get more larva (more units) from their inject, but Protoss can choose to either chrono out more units or to use it to tech faster.

[Spartacus]

Of course, more units can either help economy or army, and MULEs can be used to repair, as spotters, or to distract a few tanks.

[LordShotGun]

MULEs can be used to repair, as spotters, or to distract a few tanks.

I did state this in my post, and my point was really that each races macro mechanic except the protoss has multiple uses. I consider faster tech and units the same since both require cronoboost on a building and if if you don't think they are the same that is still only two uses versus the many that terran has and the several that queens get.

For terran I really only talked about the multiple uses for mules. I did not get into the insane usefulness of scans and the lesser usefulness of supply drops. Scans practically make ravens pointless (how many pro games have you seen a raven being used over scans) and supply drops can be used if you mess up badly or need them to met certain timing pushes.

Queens are less useful admittedly, but the creep tumor mechanic is vital to good zerg players and transfuse can be used in many innovative ways.

Protoss get one skill and only one use out of that skill. Maybe we will see some other use for energy on nexi in HoTS but until then I really hope cronoboost could be adapted in other ways.

[Spartacus]

Well, the one use they have for the skill is really, really good.

[LordShotGun]

Well, the one use they have for the skill is really, really good.

Oh I am certainly not arguing that but I do want something else to do with 3-4 nexi worth of energy mid to late game when you don't have anything left to research and all you can do is cronoboost all your warpgates.

[Legoshrimp]

Heh chrono is the only macro mechanic you don't have to buy. It still gives better econ, tech, AND unit producing power. It is really strong if anything its the best macro mechanic.

[LordShotGun]

Heh chrono is the only macro mechanic you don't have to buy. It still gives better econ, tech, AND unit producing power. It is really strong if anything its the best macro mechanic.

I am not arguing that cronoboost is bad, but that it is limited in what you can do. I am not asking for a balance change but a feature addition.

[Spartacus]

Adding a feature will require a balance change in this case, as in most others.

[LordShotGun]

Adding a feature will require a balance change in this case, as in most others.

Point, but that is what expansions are for, right? Maybe we will have to wait for legacy of the void for extra nexus powers but I remain hopeful.

[Legoshrimp]

I am not arguing that cronoboost is bad, but that it is limited in what you can do. I am not asking for a balance change but a feature addition.

Feature additions to existing skills are called "Buffs" Also it already does more stuff then the other macro mechanics I mean, queens have the zerg macro ability larvae inject, queens also have transfuse and creep tumors. Terran has there macro abilities(they have two although you should never really need to use supply) on their upgraded command center, along with the ability to scan. While Protoss doesn't need to upgrade/build a specific unit to get their macro mechanic which has more uses.

[Mutant Sheep]

Ok..Umm...I haven't posted here sooo.. Hi guys! ... I'm Fourhand 480 in North America. I hope it's 480, I think it is...

Ok discussion...extra Nexus power? Getting faster tech isn't good enough? That whole "teching really fast" thing is really annoying.

[term1nally s1ck]

Protoss can:
Make units faster.
Research faster.

Terran can:
Mine faster.
Scout/detect.
Supply.

Zerg can:
Make units faster.
Spread creep
Heal units.

Everyone gets a unique usage.

Plus, protoss get it free. Terran and zerg have to tech to it and pay 150 minerals for it.

[Thiyr]

Chronoboost is great, and I don't think at the moment that it should be messed with much. That said, i'd not call it the best macro mechanic. Faster units/tech is great, it really is. At the same time, I think the only thing about it I don't like is that lategame it becomes much less useful. The mule and puke are both steadily useful (as more minerals/more units are always needed), but being able to tech faster is at its most important at the early game I'd argue. I find in my play that I'm just trying to dump it whenever i remember it.

So really, I think my argument is that good Chronoboost doesn't seem as -essential- to good protoss play as mules or pukes are for good terran/zerg play. Versatile, yes, but its impact is a lot less direct outside of big timing pushes. So, while being able to get 5.5 stalkers out in 2 minutes if constantly chrono's is better than 3.75 by a long shot, that's compared to the zerg getting 8 roaches from just inject larva (with 4 more larva popping at the 2 minute mark) on top of the 6 from the hatchery (with a few more partially in production, presuming they started with no larva).

And when it comes down to it, tech without units just plain doesn't work, as I keep learning time and again. Doesn't hurt that at least compared to zerg, a perfectly chrono'd warpgate finishes in the same speed metabolic boost does. Good, yes, but it seems that its power lies in its versatility as a spell, while the power of the mule/inject is its focused nature, made up for by the other abilities (which are less useful but have their purposes)

[Silverraptor]

So I just played an intense ZvZ. Wow, zerg requires a high apm. I think this is my highest apm yet. But anyways, even though I need alot more practice with zerg, here's proof that Ultralists are better than roaches.:smallbiggrin:

http://www.sc-replay.com/replay/22-08-11/182581-Fibonacci-VS-Silverraptor.html?justUp=1#s_apm_gd

[u-gotNOgame]

Also remember that Chrono is probably the most forgiving macro mechanic. It can be stored without any real negative consequences, in fact certain strategies require saving it up. A Terran player that forgets to mule for a little while then drops 4 or 5 mules is suddenly going to be floating a lot of minerals, scans and supply have their place but MULES are the mainstay of the OC. Larva inject is probably the least forgiving, missing an inject cycle sort of defeats the strength of the zerg race. Which is the reactionary swell of units that allows you to go from zero army to winning the game in 30 seconds. Sure it might let you drop an extra creep tumor but those only help if you have actual units. As long as your Nexus' don't max out on energy your chrono will get you to exactly where you would have been if you'd been spending it ideally.

-UGNG

Edit: @Silverraptor Your opponent also refused to go infestor, which is almost a necessity in any zerg matchup. Make sure to transfer your drones around at one point you had the perfect number of drones for 2 bases but your main was way over and your nat way under. You were up on tech the whole game, if you'd have switched to roaches you probably could have ended it much quicker, and without losing your third. If you're going to stick to lings that long you might as well get the adrenal glands upgrade when you goto hive. Also he had nothing that shoots up, so if you had dropped a spire as you started your hive then gone Broodlord it would've been insta GG. You still played very well, just a few things to watch out for.

[Silverraptor]

Edit: @Silverraptor Your opponent also refused to go infestor, which is almost a necessity in any zerg matchup. Make sure to transfer your drones around at one point you had the perfect number of drones for 2 bases but your main was way over and your nat way under. You were up on tech the whole game, if you'd have switched to roaches you probably could have ended it much quicker, and without losing your third. If you're going to stick to lings that long you might as well get the adrenal glands upgrade when you goto hive. Also he had nothing that shoots up, so if you had dropped a spire as you started your hive then gone Broodlord it would've been insta GG. You still played very well, just a few things to watch out for.

Yeah, I know. Keep in mind that this was only my 4th recent win as playing zerg as I transition into becoming a random player. My goal is to win 50 games as each race then hammer out my worst matchups (Which is currently Terran) and then go for straight random.

The adrenal glands and the realizing I could trasnfer drones I realized on my own when I watched the replay myself. Like I said, I'm still very new to zerg, but learning fast. My heart was pounding so hard at the end of the game that I litterally needed to stop and lay down.

[BobVosh]

It was pretty good for a new to zerg thing. One thing to watch out is that after you did incredible damage with the banelings early you were passive. That passivity allowed him to come back and threaten. Also after your lings are dead, save infestors. Also you should scout during midgame while droning up.

Also until the very end I didn't see any hotkeys on the army, do you not do it or was the replay glitched or something?

[Silverraptor]

It was pretty good for a new to zerg thing. One thing to watch out is that after you did incredible damage with the banelings early you were passive. That passivity allowed him to come back and threaten. Also after your lings are dead, save infestors. Also you should scout during midgame while droning up.

Also until the very end I didn't see any hotkeys on the army, do you not do it or was the replay glitched or something?

I did alot of damage with the banelings to give me the chance to rapidly tech while he had to waste resources on army to defend instead of rebuilding. Also, I lost those infestors because I miscalculated how many banelings he had left, so my attention was at building a ultralisk cavern at the time my infestors started getting attacked. Something I will do better at later on. And I did use quite a few hotkeys for my army, it was just when I was in full defense mode, I was throwing zerglings ontop the problem until it was solved, since zerglings solve about all problems (:smalltongue:). It wasn't until I got my massive army in the end that I could afford to hotkey my units together. I fyou notice with my mid push, I had my whole army hotkeyed "1" and my infestors hotkeyed "2".

[DrizztFan24]

Hey all.

I'm picking up SC2 after a little bit of a break.(By a little, I mean 2 months, heh.) I've decided in doing this, I'm going to change races.( I'm having issues with Protoss play style, especially PvP metagame, and feel more at home with Terran, especially mech focused.)

The thing is, with both 2 months and race changes: What is the state of the meta game for Terran? Also, how long should I wait before stepping into 1 v 1 again, especially with a new race?

EDIT: In other news, guess who got Plat 1 v 1 right when he switched :smallsigh:. If anyone wants to play, I'll probably be on an in the GITP channel if I'm up at least until wednesday.

TVP for me is MMMG. Pretty basic stuff. This is far from my best match-up and so I can't be super detailed except to tell you to watch MrBitter's QXC episode.

TVZ bioball and medivacs. I try to win before tier three comes in and I don't really like siege tanks...i prefer ghosts for infestors.

TVT easily my favorite match-up. I love me a good marine/ghost opening followed by ghost/marauder. Here is a replay from Saturday's session. (http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/176097-1v1-terran-metalopolis)

[Silverraptor]

So, after playing poorly against a couple of terran, I go up against a protoss. That protoss ended up 4-gating, which I had enough map awareness to know when he was leaving his base. So my question is, why do cheesers never "gg"? (http://www.sc-replay.com/replay/23-08-11/184047-Silverraptor-VS-NickFas.html?justUp=1)

[Tychris1]

Because they think that there strategy is full proof and that your a moron, making them believe that they'll always win. So if you won it must be because you cheated, not the cheeser messing up.

[Karoht]

Ah yes. The failboat world we live in.
If you beat me, there was some kind of unfair advantage. Unit X/Race Y is OP. You maphacked. Etc.
But if I beat you, I am clearly superior in every way, regardless of strategy used, race/units used, etc.

No one ever fails at something because that person is bad. But everyone you ever beat is inferior.

Oh how amusing false notions of ego and superiority can be in some people.

[DrizztFan24]

Positive self-illusions are actually quite common and are a sign of a mentally healthy individual....narcissism not so much. It seems that many people that compete online take the former a bit too close to the latter.:smallwink:

[LordShotGun]

I wonder what makes starcraft so much different then most other games. I mean, look at most other game communities and you probably will not see as much QQ as in the SC2 forums.

[Turalisj]

I wonder what makes starcraft so much different then most other games. I mean, look at most other game communities and you probably will not see as much QQ as in the SC2 forums.

I blame the people from WoW.

[term1nally s1ck]

Pahahahahahahahaha......

Yeah, no...

LoL forums are filled with QQ. FPS players constantly QQ, I have yet to see a game with a strong online following without massive amounts of QQ

[Legoshrimp]

I wonder what makes starcraft so much different then most other games. I mean, look at most other game communities and you probably will not see as much QQ as in the SC2 forums.
What makes it so much different is you care about it enough to go tot he forums? (although why would you do that is beyond my understanding teamliquid is where I go for anything >.>)

[BobVosh]

Ya, I go on blizzards forums only to read changes for the PTR stuff so I get a preview. Never any other time.

[mangosta71]

Have you ever been to an official game forum before? I've never seen one that wasn't full of whiny little brats whose mothers should have swallowed. If you manage to get past the QQ and try to make a reasonable suggestion, you get buried under trolls and flaming. The people that are willing to have a rational discussion are very few and far between, and become even more rare as time goes by because they get frustrated by the trolls and flamers and eventually stop posting themselves.

Unofficial forums are much better. Being fan-owned-and-operated, they're more willing to slap those wastes of sapience with the banhammer.

Then you come to a site like this, where most of the people are casual players. We don't take things too seriously, we're laid back, and we actually enjoy playing the game just for the sake of playing it. By far my favorite atmosphere for gaming discussions.

[Silverraptor]

*Pant Pant*

So... I click start on a game before realizing it was midnight my time and just how tired I was, so just a split second before I could hit the cancel button, I get a player. I just stuck to it and remembered everything DarkMemnarch taught me about zerg and all the times I watched him play. As a result, I played zerg just right! (http://www.sc-replay.com/replay/24-08-11/185031-Silverraptor-VS-JamalMahal.html?justUp=1):smallbiggrin:

[Thiyr]

*Pant Pant*

So... I click start on a game before realizing it was midnight my time and just how tired I was, so just a split second before I could hit the cancel button, I get a player. I just stuck to it and remembered everything DarkMemnarch taught me about zerg and all the times I watched him play. As a result, I played zerg just right! (http://www.sc-replay.com/replay/24-08-11/185031-Silverraptor-VS-JamalMahal.html?justUp=1):smallbiggrin:

Yknow, that's something i've noticed. I tend to play better when I'm at that kinda tired should probably stop playing stage. I don't know why that is.

[Turalisj]

Yknow, that's something i've noticed. I tend to play better when I'm at that kinda tired should probably stop playing stage. I don't know why that is.

I seem to be better at most mental activities when I've hit that stage where I'm tired as hell, but just can't seem to fall asleep. :smallsigh:

[Telos]

So what I thought was, what if we could use cronoboost on units? For example late game even the best pro protoss players have immense amounts of nexus energy saved up.

I think this is a really cool idea. It'd be nice to be able to Chronoboost sentries/HTs/phoenix to get them to build up energy faster. Especially given that 'toss lost the K.Amulet, this would be a nice thematic way for 'toss to give its casters an energy boost.

The commenters were right though that, presuming the game is pretty well balanced now, simply giving more useful options to Protoss would risk unbalancing it. Here are a few ideas to maintain balance:


Make the chronoboost immobilize the unit. This will make chronoboosting units risky, which opens new strategy possibilities, but at the same time gives effective new counter-strategies to smart opponents. This would just make the game more complex and interesting, without necessarily altering balance much.
Make the chronoboost cause hull damage to the unit, kinda like Stim. This would be nicely thematic (speeding up time provides power, but takes its toll). And, like the above option, it makes the strategy space more interestingly complex without affecting balance too much.
Make the benefit offered by the chronoboost be rather small. E.g., if it adds just 25 energy to the unit, then it'll basically just be transferring energy from Nexus to Templar, which could occasionally be helpful but isn't really broken. Plus, if this effect is small, then it might usually be stupid/harmful for people to use it on a unit, rather than doing something more useful like boosting an upgrade.
Make unit-chronoboosting be something that you have to pay to enable, like orbital commands or overlord drops.
Add this feature at the same time as other features are added for the other races (e.g., in one of the expansions), in such a way that all the additions end up balancing each other out.


Just some thoughts. Anyhew, cool idea! What other features/units would y'all like to see?

[DrizztFan24]

I would like to see zerglings that can fly. They have those wings already. If you could research an upgrade that could enable zerglings to fly it would be so awesome...you could balance it by adding a morphing time, like with banelings. Morph time to turn into air-to-air only units and then another morph time to return to ground-to-ground. Of course then big ships would NEVER been seen in ladder play. They just present too big of a target.

[Silverraptor]

I would like to see zerglings that can fly. They have those wings already. If you could research an upgrade that could enable zerglings to fly it would be so awesome...you could balance it by adding a morphing time, like with banelings. Morph time to turn into air-to-air only units and then another morph time to return to ground-to-ground. Of course then big ships would NEVER been seen in ladder play. They just present too big of a target.

They had those back in brood war, they're called scourges. Banelings of the sky.

[Karoht]

I would like to see zerglings that can fly. They have those wings already. If you could research an upgrade that could enable zerglings to fly it would be so awesome...you could balance it by adding a morphing time, like with banelings. Morph time to turn into air-to-air only units and then another morph time to return to ground-to-ground. Of course then big ships would NEVER been seen in ladder play. They just present too big of a target.Not if the Air to Air damage is just crap compared to a Battlecruiser with yes for armor + yes for armor upgrades.

Still, I think it would be neat to see Zerglings get that kind of G2G or A2A kind of play, as per Vikings. If it were a late game upgrade... I don't care how much it costs or what kind of utter waste it would be to use Zerglings in this manner, the ability to do so alone makes the cost irrelivant.

[Turalisj]

Broodlings for the air?

[Telos]

I would like to see zerglings that can fly. They have those wings already. If you could research an upgrade that could enable zerglings to fly it would be so awesome...

How about an upgrade that would just let Zerglings glide down cliffs, sort of like reapers, but only downward?

That would be a plausible use of their wings, wouldn't be too overpowered (I hope), and would make the late game much more interesting. Zerglings could easily glide into low areas, but then would need to climb ramps to get back out. Or zerglings that climb up to harass a high base could glide away to freedom once the army returns.

I also sometimes think hellions should be able to race off cliffs, Dukes of Hazzard style! Maybe they should take some damage as they land, but it'd be so cool.

[Karoht]

How about an upgrade that would just let Zerglings glide down cliffs, sort of like reapers, but only downward?

I also sometimes think hellions should be able to race off cliffs, Dukes of Hazzard style! Maybe they should take some damage as they land, but it'd be so cool.Both of these are amazing suggestions!
Especially if they give the Hellions a horn to honk when they jump. Not a complete ripoff of the General Lee, but something equally silly. They're essentially dune buggys with flame throwers.

[BobVosh]

I've always wanted zerg units to be able to jump down cliffs, I would be fine with them taking damage. I was REALLY annoyed that they made such a big deal about units that go up/down cliffs then only made 2 of them. Neither in my race. :'(


So... I click start on a game before realizing it was midnight my time and just how tired I was, so just a split second before I could hit the cancel button, I get a player. I just stuck to it and remembered everything DarkMemnarch taught me about zerg and all the times I watched him play. As a result, I played zerg just right! (http://www.sc-replay.com/replay/24-08-11/185031-Silverraptor-VS-JamalMahal.html?justUp=1):smallbiggrin:

Very well played :D Loved the NP on the colossi.
I have been experimenting a lot with ling/infestor play and find getting the double ups early is better than rushing infestors. Infestors are strong enough that you only need 3 or 4 to swing a battle. This is just my experience, and vs protoss as well. More infestors against terran bio balls is just better :D

[DrizztFan24]

I just had one of the most fun matches EVAR! TvT...so I open ghosts. walk over to his base...kill some of dems mariners. harass the scvs. go home. I spotted a fast factory and port. I figure two port banshee is coming because he has only spent minerals on his units; so I build up a ton of ghosts and proceed back to his base. First step? EMP 2 of the 3 banshees and the raven. Then kill banshees. For the grand finale, snipe ALL of his workers. QQ. I will post a replay when I get an opportunity.

[Acanous]

If you were able to ghost up against 2 banshees and a Raven, you won from his failings, not your own skill (Aside from the skill of not failing.)
GG to you sir, but I believe you were playing someone under your level.

[Kyeudo]

Anyone got thoughts about how to win the new Funday Monday? You can only build drones, queens, overlords, spores, spines, and overseers.

[Spartacus]

So he wants spine crawler pushes? Sounds entertaining, but hard as nails.

[Tychris1]

Queen rush/Spinecrawler rush. Set up a hatchery infront of them and then poke them to death.

[Kyeudo]

I forget you can proxy hatches. How to handle heavy air? Brood Lords messed up my 40 Queen army in one game and mutas outmanuvered my queens on the others.

Also, I found out that spines cannot be used to wall effectively. lings run right through them. Who's idea was that?

[BobVosh]

I forget you can proxy hatches. How to handle heavy air? Brood Lords messed up my 40 Queen army in one game and mutas outmanuvered my queens on the others.

Also, I found out that spines cannot be used to wall effectively. lings run right through them. Who's idea was that?

So can queens. Use this to your advantage.

[Kyeudo]

Alright, so far I have found that mass spine crawler/queen cannot hold Brood Lords, Mass ling, or Burrowed Roaches. It will probably fall apart to Void Rays, Dark Templar, Ultralisks, Immortals, Nukes, Battlecruisers, Carriers, and just about everything else.

Putting pressure on the opponent is nigh impossible without doing a proxy hatch and proxy hatches are expensive, slow to become a threat, and easily scouted.

How is this supposed to work?

[Legoshrimp]

heh the problem is you have nothing that can deal with siege tanks/brood lords/collosi. I mean literally nothing. This I think is really hard to win with.

[Kyeudo]

If I could do something to get aggressive, I could put pressure on before they got Brood Lords, but how do I get aggressive when a single spine crawler pretty much stops my forward progress cold?

Colossi can be dealt with by Queens, since they have long ranges and do reasonable air damage. Tanks are another story.

[BobVosh]

Queens are surprisingly good vs brood lords and colossus. Not amazing, but pretty good. Just due to range.

[Legoshrimp]

Um... if the toss has any zealots or really room to micro his collosi shouldn't take any damage at all. 9>7. And the only way you can really when this is by just being better and out macroing then brute forcing with 10x more stuff then he has I think. Unless he goes bl/collosi/siege tank and then theres nothing you can do really.

[term1nally s1ck]

Early aggro with spines and overseers, (that gas has to go somewhere), try and just mess with him a ton.

What you want to do IMO is be on an hyper-accelerated zerg end game, where you have 10 drones mining, and constantly produce more drones from many many hatcheries, which all build spines and spores. You keep queens around to spread creep and transfuse on occasion.

EDIT: And mass overseer. Seriously, you don't spend gas on anything else bar upgrades, so just make *all* your overlords overseers, mass produce changelings in fights to mess up your opponent's micro, mass contaminate every single base, even the structures that aren't doing anything. YOU JUST WANT TO WATCH THE WHOLE WORLD GOOP.

[Dragon Elite]

Try Destiny's 14 pool 15 hatch in your opponents expo. You have the hatch at home keep making lings, and your expo making drones to spine crawler contain. Remember to make more and more proxy hatches as you need more for queens.

[Telos]

So, I finally hooked up a microphone. Being able to voice chat with allies makes cooperative games a lot more fun!

How do I join the GitP group on battlenet? My name is Telos and my number is 631.

[mangosta71]

Try Destiny's 14 pool 15 hatch in your opponents expo. You have the hatch at home keep making lings, and your expo making drones to spine crawler contain. Remember to make more and more proxy hatches as you need more for queens.
If you intend this for the Funday, you missed a crucial point. No lings allowed.

[Telos]

Oh, and there are new patch notes (http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/1213111662).

Some nice buffs for protoss and nerfs for terran, a mix for zerg. Here are some highlights:

GENERAL:


When a building is canceled or salvaged the minerals returned will be displayed at the building location for the owner, for enemy players a floating text will be displayed.

I don't get it. Won't this completely mess up strategies like building a fake expansion to lull opponent into a false sense of security, cancelling at the last second, and going all in?


Unit vision up ramps has been reduced by 1.

This'll really increase high ground advantage.

PROTOSS:


Immortal Attack range increased from 5 to 6.
This should help a bit with my dumb immortals getting stuck behind my stalkers unable to shoot.


Mothership
Acceleration increased from 0.3 to 1.375.
The Mothership’s Cloaking Field no longer cloaks all units instantaneously, but rather adds units to the cloak field over time (maximum of 25 per second). This should alleviate “Mothership Lag” issue when a Mothership comes online.

Mothership acceleration is great -- it was sooo slow! Not sure how much the lag-fix will actually affect gameplay. Seems like not much, aside perhaps from mass-recalling or vortex-releasing into a hot-zone, when it'd be nice for the cloak to kick in instantly. May also make a difference as the mothership is catching up to an army already in battle. But this bit of a nerf is probably worth it if it can fix the lag.


Stalker Blink research time increased from 110 to 140.

Ok... a bit annoying to Protoss, but not a big deal, especially given chronoboost.


Warp Prism Shields increased from 40 to 100.

Yay! Maybe they'll finally be played.


Issuing new orders to charging zealots will cause them to lose the charge buff.

This'll probably be realllly annoying for a lot of people. If you spam micro commands (e.g., telling it to focus-fire units) zealot charge will end up being useless. I bet this change will get reversed -- too annoying.

TERRAN:


Barracks Build time increased from 60 to 65.

Hellion Infernal Pre-Igniter damage upgrade decreased from 10 to 5.

Not sure these nerfs were necessary.


Raven Seeker missile movement speed increased from 2.5 to 2.953.

Yay - may make this playable.

ZERG:


Infestor Fungal Growth damage changed from 36 (+30% armored) to 30 (40 vs Armored).
Seems like a significant nerf, but infestors had become pretty dominant.


Overseer
Morph cost decreased from 50/100 to 50/50.
Contaminate energy cost increased from 75 to 125.
Cheapening it seems good, and probably offsets the increased contaminate cost. For the same gas and a bit more minerals you can end up with slightly *more* frequent contaminates now. Seems good to me.


Ultralisk Build time decreased from 70 to 55.
This is a significant buff, but seems good to me. It takes soo long from when you decide to tech to ultras to when you first get them on the field, and this helps reduce that window of vulnerability. It also helps you rebuild an army a bit faster, which can be helpful. Ultras weren't anywhere near broken before, so this buff probably won't break them.

[Karoht]

Oh, and there are new patch notes (http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/1213111662).
~~
I don't get it. Won't this completely mess up strategies like building a fake expansion to lull opponent into a false sense of security, cancelling at the last second, and going all in?That is probably the idea.


This'll really increase high ground advantage.
~and~
This should help a bit with my dumb immortals getting stuck behind my stalkers unable to shoot.The two of these together is really going to help Immortals hold fixed positions when they need to. This is the buff Immortals have been looking for.



Not sure these nerfs were necessary.Flamethrower buggies was almost an automatic counter to any and all Zerg early game. This keeps them potent none the less, but I think this just means zerglings will survive that extra second to at least get some damage in. Drones might live a bit longer two, but not by much I imagine.



Seems like a significant nerf, but infestors had become pretty dominant.Less lethal against non-armored and armored. Marines are more likely to survive if they don't have a medivac. Meaning that Infestors out super early isn't as likely to be super lethal. Fungal Growth is already an awesome counter VS unhealed marines, this only reduces the lethality, not the functionality.



This is a significant buff, but seems good to me. It takes soo long from when you decide to tech to ultras to when you first get them on the field, and this helps reduce that window of vulnerability. It also helps you rebuild an army a bit faster, which can be helpful. Ultras weren't anywhere near broken before, so this buff probably won't break them.Wow, what a buff. Expect to see more Ultralisks.

[Legoshrimp]

Flamethrower buggies was almost an automatic counter to any and all Zerg early game. This keeps them potent none the less, but I think this just means zerglings will survive that extra second to at least get some damage in. Drones might live a bit longer two, but not by much I imagine.


I think the main changes workers no longer die in 2 hits. Which was a issue for all match ups, especially TvT I think. It was just kind of silly how many workers often died in TvT. Top level games I was seeing 200+ die by the end. Also if I remember correctly zerglings still will die in 2 with the upgrade.

Edit: Also these are the PTR patch notes so it will be a while before we see any of the changes, and many of them might not actually happen. Although my guess is a lot of them will they all seem like decent changes. Also pvp will no longer be blink stalker focused as much probably.

[LordShotGun]

I think the main changes workers no longer die in 2 hits. Which was a issue for all match ups, especially TvT I think. It was just kind of silly how many workers often died in TvT. Top level games I was seeing 200+ die by the end. Also if I remember correctly zerglings still will die in 2 with the upgrade.


Now if you want two hit kills with hellions you need to tech 1 (or maybe 2) vehicle upgrades first plus the blue flame. So we can still have super aggressive and powerful hellion harass, it will just be later game.

[Legoshrimp]

Heh needing 2 armory upgrades (and an armory) will just make it take 3 hits instead of 2, I could see blue flame being ignored more here. at least for a longer time. I wonder if it will change how prevalent mech has been in tvt. Honestly hellions will still be good but they where kind of ridiculous.

[mangosta71]

I always considered their strengths to be their speed (both in terms of movement and time needed to get them out) and the ability to hit a bunch of units (especially if they're lined up in mineral patches) all at once. I think they'll still be used because those haven't changed.

[Spartacus]

Darnit, MLG. Why did you mess up K[9] and Tasteosis. It said K[9] was on Blue, but they're on Red, and vice versa. Made me sit through the ads twice.

EDIT: And then they switch them mid sentence and I miss what they were saying, and have to watch the ads again. Grr.

EDIT2: And then TLO forfeits his match because he was in the crowd watching idra vs. Bomber. Lawl.

[Silverraptor]

So, I'm hitting a bit of a losing streak. I keep mis-micoring my units and I seem to collapse under early, constant pressure.

On the other hand, I can hold off cheeses really well. (http://www.sc-replay.com/replay/26-08-11/189823-Neffarious-VS-Silverraptor.html?justUp=1)

[The Glyphstone]

It's been ages since anyone talked about Heart of the Swarm - has there been any new info?

[LordShotGun]

Darnit, MLG. Why did you mess up K[9] and Tasteosis. It said K[9] was on Blue, but they're on Red, and vice versa. Made me sit through the ads twice.

EDIT: And then they switch them mid sentence and I miss what they were saying, and have to watch the ads again. Grr.

EDIT2: And then TLO forfeits his match because he was in the crowd watching idra vs. Bomber. Lawl.


"Cough" "Cough" Firefox has video add blocker "Cough" "Cough"


While it does take some willpower to make the plunge, when I finally did switch from internet explorer to firefox, I have NEVER looked back.

[Mutant Sheep]

It's been ages since anyone talked about Heart of the Swarm - has there been any new info?

Ohhh! I want more zerg news! zerg campaign looks so pretty...:smallwink: Kerrigan is too central to it though. At least what it looks like... Will there will be a max level for her to reach every level, or no leveling at all and she only gets upgrades in between stages?

[Spartacus]

"Cough" "Cough" Firefox has video add blocker "Cough" "Cough"


While it does take some willpower to make the plunge, when I finally did switch from internet explorer to firefox, I have NEVER looked back.

I use Firefox.

[Turalisj]

"Cough" "Cough" Firefox has video add blocker "Cough" "Cough"


While it does take some willpower to make the plunge, when I finally did switch from internet explorer to firefox, I have NEVER looked back.

Once you choose the Fox, there's no going back.

[Spartacus]

You know, Husky actually isn't a bad caster. I will say that he needs someone like Day[9] who is better at analysis, but he fills the space well and doesn't come off as not knowledgeable at all.

[Legoshrimp]

"Cough" "Cough" Firefox has video add blocker "Cough" "Cough"


While it does take some willpower to make the plunge, when I finally did switch from internet explorer to firefox, I have NEVER looked back.

*Cough* *Cough* The content your watching is in part supported by adds, meaning blocking the adds is saying you don't want them to continue making more content *Cough* *Cough*

[Tychris1]

You know, some people said something about Broodlords being a problem to the spinecrawler/Queen rush for funday Monday.

Question: Where do Broodlords come from?
Answer: Corruptors

Question: What are corruptors good at?
Answers: BLOWING AIR OUT OF THE SKY

He'll have less broodlords then you have corruptors, collosi can be pegged off by corruptors aswell, and mutalisks have less range then corruptors meaning that it's harder for them to hit and run. Plus if it hits air, it's a counter to mutalisks :smalltongue:

As for Heart of the Swarm I really want to see what kind of special missions they have planned. I've devised alot of different missions but I doubt that blizzard would do any of them (or even do something similar).

[Legoshrimp]

You know, some people said something about Broodlords being a problem to the spinecrawler/Queen rush for funday Monday.

Question: Where do Broodlords come from?
Answer: Corruptors

Question: What are corruptors good at?
Answers: BLOWING AIR OUT OF THE SKY

He'll have less broodlords then you have corruptors, collosi can be pegged off by corruptors aswell, and mutalisks have less range then corruptors meaning that it's harder for them to hit and run. Plus if it hits air, it's a counter to mutalisks :smalltongue:

As for Heart of the Swarm I really want to see what kind of special missions they have planned. I've devised alot of different missions but I doubt that blizzard would do any of them (or even do something similar).

The problem is that the constraint for this funday monday is you can only build queens, spore crawlers, spine crawlers, overlords, and overseers for your units.

[Tychris1]

Oh, I thought that was just people rounding down such as "Oh, we can't use lings, roaches, hydras, and mutas? Then we can only use Queens, Drones and overlords!" not the literal words.

Also, if it's ZvZ, why not do a Drone drop? Drop a few drones in his base and spawn a mixture of Spinecrawlers and spore crawlers to hold him off.

[Suedars]

Oh, I thought that was just people rounding down such as "Oh, we can't use lings, roaches, hydras, and mutas? Then we can only use Queens, Drones and overlords!" not the literal words.

Also, if it's ZvZ, why not do a Drone drop? Drop a few drones in his base and spawn a mixture of Spinecrawlers and spore crawlers to hold him off.

Because that requires lair tech and by then he'll have more than enough units to kill them before they get even 50% to completing.

[LordShotGun]

*Cough* *Cough* The content your watching is in part supported by adds, meaning blocking the adds is saying you don't want them to continue making more content *Cough* *Cough*


If this is true (and I would like to see some sources for that claim) I don't care if I drive the game I love out of business, I am not watching another 60 second car commercial/shoe commercial every five minutes as is custom for most streaming video players.



Anyway back to the thread topic. Even though Heart of the Swarm is zerg based I still think they will make significant changes to the units and metagame for all three races since from a business standpoint, this expansion needs enough game changing material to make it worth buying.

[Legoshrimp]

I haven't ever seen a video player that does that, the closest I have seen was livestream which was every 15 minutes, but now even that doesn't happen. Most things have an add when you first connect and then nothing until the broadcaster says for it to.

on HotS of course the meta is going to change withthe addition of new units.

[Spartacus]

MLG, for the record, only places ads when you first connect and in between matches if a match goes quickly.

Also, ads on streams work similar to commercials on TV. People buy airtime on popular programs to get lots of eyes, and if you block the ad you aren't watching the ad, which means advertisers are less likely to buy airtime, which leads to smaller prize pools, which leads to fewer players, which leads to a shrinking scene, which leads to fewer sponsors, which kills e-sports.

So basically, blocking ads kills e-sports.

[BobVosh]

If it didn't make them money, and therefore support the esports community, why would there be ads?

[Silverraptor]

Why is there the assumtion there will be new units with HotS?:smallconfused: Has an announcement been made or what?

[BobVosh]

Due to the low zerg number compared to the other two races, I would be sad to not see any new ones.

[Eldariel]

Why is there the assumtion there will be new units with HotS?:smallconfused: Has an announcement been made or what?

They kinda gave that vibe when they announced how they plan on releasing the SCII in its entirety. Besides, Brood War had new units too. That's just how they tend to do things. I'd be willing to bet anything on HotS having new unit(s) for all races; that also helps sell the whole deal if nothing else.

[Spartacus]

I count 13 zerg units, 15 Protoss (although one is the Mothership) and 14 Terran. Zerg does have fewer, but not by much.

[ragingrage]

Quoting Here. (http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/game/heart-of-the-swarm-preview/faq#q4)


What are some of the changes made to multiplayer Heart of the Swarm?
While we’re not quite ready to go into detail about the new multiplayer content in Heart of the Swarm, we can say that this expansion set will include new units and new maps. We’ll have more details about multiplayer Heart of the Swarm content at BlizzCon.

[Kyeudo]

Well guys, I finally grabbed a win doing the funday. A little bit of epic fail on his part, a little bit of some adjusted priorities on mine (who need econ when all you make are drones anyway?), and I get this little gem (http://www.sc-replay.com/replay/26-08-11/190066-Kyeudo-VS-YinYang.html?justUp=1).

[Spartacus]

Why have I never heard of this Coca fellow? He's currently the only player at Raleigh who has yet to lose a single game.

[Eldariel]

Why have I never heard of this Coca fellow? He's currently the only player at Raleigh who has yet to lose a single game.

There are tons of awesome Koreans. You only hear of those winning something but that doesn't remove the potential. If you'd follow team leagues he'd probably be more familiar to you.

[TFT]

Reminder - Next Starcraft 2 session is in about 3 hours or so, and I'll probably be there so there'll be at least one person, 2 if I can drag lego :smalltongue:.

Hope to see some of you there!

[Legoshrimp]

I have been draged. Others should be dragged too. Me and tft are on right now more people should join us!

[Karoht]

If this is true (and I would like to see some sources for that claim) I don't care if I drive the game I love out of business, I am not watching another 60 second car commercial/shoe commercial every five minutes as is custom for most streaming video players.I will remember this quote, should you ever utter the words "they can totally do that, they have lots of money."




Anyway back to the thread topic. Even though Heart of the Swarm is zerg based I still think they will make significant changes to the units and metagame for all three races since from a business standpoint, this expansion needs enough game changing material to make it worth buying.I wonder if there will be a cheap option for those uninterested in the single-player content. IE-Pay 10 bucks, get the new units.
Or considering that multiplayer is probably going to be harmonized among all 3 versions, I'd be willing to wager that you'd have access to the new units in multiplayer without paying for HotS.
Why I say that-Having to balance out multiple modes of multiplayer isn't fun. And they aren't going to suddenly block those who already purchased WoL from multiplayer access.
Really curious how this is going to play out.

[Suedars]

I wonder if there will be a cheap option for those uninterested in the single-player content. IE-Pay 10 bucks, get the new units.
Or considering that multiplayer is probably going to be harmonized among all 3 versions, I'd be willing to wager that you'd have access to the new units in multiplayer without paying for HotS.
Why I say that-Having to balance out multiple modes of multiplayer isn't fun. And they aren't going to suddenly block those who already purchased WoL from multiplayer access.
Really curious how this is going to play out.

It'll probably be the same as they've done with past games. No cheap upgrade for multiplayer. If you don't upgrade you continue playing WoL on a separate ladder from HotS without HotS's changes, and most balance changes will be made with HotS in mind, mostly ignoring WoL-only.

[Recaiden]

Reminder - Next Starcraft 2 session is in about 3 hours or so, and I'll probably be there so there'll be at least one person, 2 if I can drag lego :smalltongue:.

Hope to see some of you there!

Sorry, questmate and others. Don't expect me to be able to get on for the weekly games until 2012 at least.

[Telos]

A real-life reaper!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgdIE2t8QkM

(almost)

[Kyeudo]

I got something very worth Funday Monday. Here's an hour long game of me doing the funday and taking no gas at all. It has nydus attacks, muta harassment, queen micro, me spinecrawler pushing my own main base, long range mining, a ling counterattack, creep all over the map, and a last ditch broodlord fleet. I was macroing queens off of 11 hatcheries at the end. Take a look if you want. (http://www.sc-replay.com/replay/28-08-11/194273-muzz-VS-Kyeudo.html?justUp=1)

[Spartacus]

That is totally worth appearing on the Funday. Here's to hoping we see a second Kyeudo appearance. Maybe he'll pronounce your name correctly this time :P

[Legoshrimp]

So I had an idea for a p v t strategy. Probably open with a sentry fast expand into blink stalkers. Then take an early third with the map control gained from the blink stalkers. After that transition into chargelot archon. W transition ile getting fast upgrades. Then transition into two robo collosi.

[Karoht]

It'll probably be the same as they've done with past games. No cheap upgrade for multiplayer. If you don't upgrade you continue playing WoL on a separate ladder from HotS without HotS's changes, and most balance changes will be made with HotS in mind, mostly ignoring WoL-only.Which would be likely, save for that fact that Blizzard has said they don't want separate ladders. The Battle.net team has also stated (shortly after WoL's release when this question came up) that they don't want separate ladders either.

While not confirmation that there will not be multiple ladders, it is certainly encouraging information to indicate that multiple ladders are not likely.

And common sense says, it would not go over well with fans if they forced them to upgrade or become unable to participate in ladder. Blizzard is neither that greedy or that dumb to make that kind of move.
Cheap upgrade, or cheap as free upgrade, seems rather reasonably likely.

I'm also curious what new units will do for Starcraft Universe.

[Karoht]

So I had an idea for a p v t strategy. Probably open with a sentry fast expand into blink stalkers. Then take an early third with the map control gained from the blink stalkers. After that transition into chargelot archon. W transition ile getting fast upgrades. Then transition into two robo collosi.

Maybe I'm a nub when it comes to Protoss, but why not just go from Blink Stalkers to Collosi?

[Legoshrimp]

Maybe I'm a nub when it comes to Protoss, but why not just go from Blink Stalkers to Collosi?

A chargelots are awesome
B they will be making ghosts for HT
C they won't have enough vikings to defend 6 collosi.
D I hate my phone.

[Thiyr]

I got something very worth Funday Monday. Here's an hour long game of me doing the funday and taking no gas at all. It has nydus attacks, muta harassment, queen micro, me spinecrawler pushing my own main base, long range mining, a ling counterattack, creep all over the map, and a last ditch broodlord fleet. I was macroing queens off of 11 hatcheries at the end. Take a look if you want. (http://www.sc-replay.com/replay/28-08-11/194273-muzz-VS-Kyeudo.html?justUp=1)

That was just plain entertaining. I was so amused at the sheer queen-yness i was seeing.

[Spartacus]

Holy crap. Hero won a perfect game. No units lost. wtf.

[Silverraptor]

I got something very worth Funday Monday. Here's an hour long game of me doing the funday and taking no gas at all. It has nydus attacks, muta harassment, queen micro, me spinecrawler pushing my own main base, long range mining, a ling counterattack, creep all over the map, and a last ditch broodlord fleet. I was macroing queens off of 11 hatcheries at the end. Take a look if you want. (http://www.sc-replay.com/replay/28-08-11/194273-muzz-VS-Kyeudo.html?justUp=1)

CREEP DOMINATION!!!!

I like how you could see the entire map. WHat was also hilarious was the fact that getting the xel'naga tower did nothing after all the creep tumors.

Also, Day9 made you do it. He's sure to pick it now. You should spam it at him with different key words to make sure he sees it.

[Silverraptor]

Guys, I have to share this replay with you. (http://www.sc-replay.com/replay/28-08-11/194898-deathbymonty-VS-Silverraptor.html?justUp=1) Its quite hilarious at parts.

Edit: I just beat my first platinum league zerg player as zerg. (http://www.sc-replay.com/replay/28-08-11/194908-Silverraptor-VS-TreInJapan.html?justUp=1):smallcool:

[Kyeudo]

After trying out the funday, I'm finding that this proxy hatch contain strategy that I've been using may have uses on some maps. As long as I also am allowed to build zerglings, it's not too hard to defend a ling run-by, it denies him his expo, and I usually get that expo.

With the success rate so far (of getting the contain going at least), it doesn't seem too all-in or too easily shut down. Thoughts?

[Spartacus]

Holy crap ZvZ is cutthroat. Even losing one Overlord (like DRG vs. Coca, game 2) can cost you the game. I never realized it was that insane. Like, as a Protoss player, if I get in a bad position there is chance I can pull back because Force Fields can buy me time. No such thing in ZvZ.

EDIT: And then Tastosis say the exact same thing a minute later.

[KillItWithFire]

You people all in platinum and I'm stil struggling to get out of silver. Losing to terran drops frequently. can't scout the things becasue of his wall offs. Also is there some sort of guide or something to using sentries? I still don't produce them becasue frankly I can't use them.
This game causes me to love it and be infuriated with it at the same time!
The replay with the zvz funday thing was hilarious. :smallsmile: I'm keeping that one.

[Kyeudo]

You people all in platinum and I'm stil struggling to get out of silver. Losing to terran drops frequently. can't scout the things becasue of his wall offs. Also is there some sort of guide or something to using sentries? I still don't produce them becasue frankly I can't use them.


First, you are scouting drops wrong. You don't need to know a Terran has medivacs to look for drops. What you do is you place the pylons you normally get for supply around the edges of your base where they like to drop off a drop and then watch the minimap. Terrans almost always get medivacs, so assume the terran has them by the 10 minute mark. Watch the minimap. If he's dropping hard, throw a few cannons by the mineral line.

Sentries aren't too hard to use. I play Zerg and I can use them well enough to get through the protoss challenges with a gold rating. Forcefielding a ramp properly is tricky, but not impossible. You can do it with only one usually, but if you are having trouble getting it dead center, use two. Good forcefield use is more defined by when and why your forcefield than how many you use.

[Eldariel]

You people all in platinum and I'm stil struggling to get out of silver. Losing to terran drops frequently. can't scout the things becasue of his wall offs. Also is there some sort of guide or something to using sentries? I still don't produce them becasue frankly I can't use them.

Not really. Sentries...you basically want to use them to lay down a line of Forcefields separating enemy army so only half of it can fight efficiently against Terran. Also cuts their escape and micro chances against Zealots. Against Zerg you mostly use them to trap Roaches or stop Lings from getting to melee range. Extremely key in both match-ups.

They of course also hold chokepoints like nobody's business (just keep repeatedly Forcefielding it) and Guardian Shield cuts to the damage of high rate of attack low damage units (like Marines, Zerglings & Zealots) immensely (2 points per attack; Marine only deals 3 to Zealot under Guardian Shield as opposed to the normal 5).

Of course, Terrans will eventually get Ghosts and Medivacs to deal with Forcefields and Zerg will have Burrow and Burrow Movement (not to mention Ultras) so it's not a game-long solution but they're always helpful and absolutely dominant in the early game.

[term1nally s1ck]

I'd like to note that the MOST important use for forcefield in PvZ is to keep the infestors out of range of NPing your colossi. Splitting his army and keeping lings out of melee range are very important...but you NEED to deny those parasites.

[Dragon Elite]

Forcefields are also useful in PvP, to help deny 4-gate. Let in a couple units, then kill them. Repeat. Win.

[KillItWithFire]

Wow you guys are actually helpful. :smallsmile:


First, you are scouting drops wrong. You don't need to know a Terran has medivacs to look for drops. What you do is you place the pylons you normally get for supply around the edges of your base where they like to drop off a drop and then watch the minimap. Terrans almost always get medivacs, so assume the terran has them by the 10 minute mark. Watch the minimap. If he's dropping hard, throw a few cannons by the mineral line.


I hadn't heard this strat before. I'll try this one. Might also help me now be supply blocked if I constantly want to put pylons places for vision. As for sentries, I guess I'll just start forcing myself to warp a few in and see where I go from there. Last game I played I lost to a drop. :smallfrown: had 8 warps running and was keeping him from exapanding to his natural. Then right after a fresh warp in he decides to drop in my main and power down 5 of the gates off the bat due to poor pylon placement. :smallmad: I really hate losing like that. Been starting to make sure all of my buildings are at least triple reinforced after that one.

[Eldariel]

I'd like to note that the MOST important use for forcefield in PvZ is to keep the infestors out of range of NPing your colossi. Splitting his army and keeping lings out of melee range are very important...but you NEED to deny those parasites.

That's lategame, mind; earlygame the #1 use of Forcefields is to either block Lings from your army or trap Roaches (depending on which your opponent is building, of course).

[Telos]

Also is there some sort of guide or something to using sentries?

I'd suggest starting building sentries against marines and remember to hit G for guardian shield at the start of battles (and again if the first shield falls) as the 2 damage reduction against marines can make a huge difference. It's also fairly useful against mutalisks, stalkers and marauders.

The next most easy+important use for sentries is to block ramps. Some time when you're defending a ramp without a wall-off on top, build a couple sentries and keep a close eye for when the opponent is coming up the ramp. Let half their troops come up the ramp and then drop a force-field blocking the rest from coming in. Then slaughter the ones that are trapped inside. That will feel so good you'll be motivated to build more sentries and learn to use more force fields to effectively do the same thing out in more open areas.

Here are a few other fun uses:

If you're building a lot of sentries, hallucination is cheap to research from the cybercore. Hallucinated phoenixes make very useful scouts. Letting your opponent scout your hallucinated collosi or void-rays can trick them into building vikings that will be worthless against your gateway army. And hallucinated immortals get the hardened shield effect, so they're great at absorbing extra damage in a fight, while your real units survive and deal damage.

If you're getting surrounded by zerglings or zealots, a few well-placed forcefields can really limit their access to your troops, and completely change the outcome of a battle.

If you're attacking an opponent's expansion, force field their ramp so they can't bring in new reinforcements from their main base. This can be really infuriating, especially if you keep renewing the forcefield right as it falls.

Also, the liquipedia page on sentries (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Sentry) is pretty useful.

[Spartacus]

Also, if you put on enough early pressure you can stop someone from getting their natural until they have drops/you run out of energy. Just keep blocking that ramp :D

[Kyeudo]

One of the Challenge missions focuses on protoss spellcaster micro. You have to survive a ton of waves with nothing but sentries and HTs. I barely managed to beat the whole thing. I had 2 archons left at the end and that was it.

[Legoshrimp]

One of the Challenge missions focuses on protoss spellcaster micro. You have to survive a ton of waves with nothing but sentries and HTs. I barely managed to beat the whole thing. I had 2 archons left at the end and that was it.

Yeah, for me this was by far the hardest challenge mission to get gold on.

Edit: Also Infested terrans seem really op when watching destiny's stream, at least in zvz.

[Thiyr]

They of course also hold chokepoints like nobody's business (just keep repeatedly Forcefielding it) and Guardian Shield cuts to the damage of high rate of attack low damage units (like Marines) immensely (2 points per attack; Marine only deals 3 to Zealot under Guardian Shield as opposed to the normal 5).


Fixed that for you. Guardian Shield only affects ranged attacks, meaning it won't do squat to zealots or lings. It does, however, affect the vast majority of ranged attacks, so it's not a bad thing to toss up in a lot of engagements. I'd probably add roaches and hydras as good things to have GS against.

[term1nally s1ck]

Yeah, for me this was by far the hardest challenge mission to get gold on.

Edit: Also Infested terrans seem really op when watching destiny's stream, at least in zvz.

Yeah, he does seem to do a ridiculous amount of damage with them...IMO infestors need to be 4 slots in a transport, not 2.

[Kyeudo]

Yeah, he does seem to do a ridiculous amount of damage with them...IMO infestors need to be 4 slots in a transport, not 2.

I know the Massive things take up a full transport, but everything else is just their supply cost. I think that's what determines their transport cost.

Besides, infestor drops aren't that much more devastating than a HT drop, Toss just doesn't do HT drops.

[term1nally s1ck]

Have you seen destiny do an infestor drop? He kills the workers, the freaking Hatchery/Lair/Hive, and probably a tech building or 2. 32 infested terrans focus firing buildings is a ridiculous amount of damage.

[Eldariel]

Fixed that for you. Guardian Shield only affects ranged attacks, meaning it won't do squat to zealots or lings. It does, however, affect the vast majority of ranged attacks, so it's not a bad thing to toss up in a lot of engagements. I'd probably add roaches and hydras as good things to have GS against.

Fair. Marines, Sentries, Marauders (especially against non-Stalkers), Stalkers & Hydras then :smalltongue: Roaches kinda high damage tho any small bit still helps of course.

[faceroll]

So I had an idea for a p v t strategy. Probably open with a sentry fast expand into blink stalkers. Then take an early third with the map control gained from the blink stalkers. After that transition into chargelot archon. W transition ile getting fast upgrades. Then transition into two robo collosi.

Seems gas heavy.

If you want early map control, go dark templar.


Which would be likely, save for that fact that Blizzard has said they don't want separate ladders. The Battle.net team has also stated (shortly after WoL's release when this question came up) that they don't want separate ladders either.

While not confirmation that there will not be multiple ladders, it is certainly encouraging information to indicate that multiple ladders are not likely.

And common sense says, it would not go over well with fans if they forced them to upgrade or become unable to participate in ladder. Blizzard is neither that greedy or that dumb to make that kind of move.
Cheap upgrade, or cheap as free upgrade, seems rather reasonably likely.

I'm also curious what new units will do for Starcraft Universe.

Day9 was doing some speculating that the next to expansions will be used as an excuse to address imbalances and deficiencies in the races.


Yeah, he does seem to do a ridiculous amount of damage with them...IMO infestors need to be 4 slots in a transport, not 2.

But you play terran. Your drop ships HEAL YOUR UNITS. Stupid mobile infantry.


Have you seen destiny do an infestor drop? He kills the workers, the freaking Hatchery/Lair/Hive, and probably a tech building or 2. 32 infested terrans focus firing buildings is a ridiculous amount of damage.

Have you seen X pro execute Y strategy? He does a ton of damage! That thing he does should be nerfed!!

Zerg needs something besides early roach aggression or the repeated army trading you see late game. It's a new strategy that players haven't adapted to yet. Give it time before you start QQing for the nerf.

[Eldariel]

Day9 was doing some speculating that the next to expansions will be used as an excuse to address imbalances and deficiencies in the races.

That's how it went in BW. Terran got Goliath range upgrade and Valkyries (before they were more or less kold to heavy air) and Medic (previously infantry was used very little), Zerg got Lurkers (they lacked any good AOE before then) + Devourer which sucks & Protoss got Dark Templar (they really didn't have much to harass with before then outside Reaver Drops; makes for a less predictable approach and actually makes protoss stealth relevant) & Corsair ('cause Scout = lol far as air superiority goes). Oh, and Dark Archon which is basically useless outside superlategame. I wouldn't be surprised if the history repeated itself.

[faceroll]

That's how it went in BW. Terran got Goliath range upgrade and Valkyries (before they were more or less kold to heavy air) and Medic (previously infantry was used very little), Zerg got Lurkers (they lacked any good AOE before then) + Devourer which sucks & Protoss got Dark Templar (they really didn't have much to harass with before then outside Reaver Drops; makes for a less predictable approach and actually makes protoss stealth relevant) & Corsair ('cause Scout = lol far as air superiority goes). Oh, and Dark Archon which is basically useless outside superlategame. I wouldn't be surprised if the history repeated itself.

Maelstrom was a cool ability. I think it would get some serious use in SC2 if it showed up.

I also think all the races will be getting new units (or there will be no new ladder units) free for everyone on ladder. Why? Because the single player is the bulk of where the development costs are, so that will be sold. Giving away some free units on ladder is no big deal compared to giving away an entirely new campaign. New units are dirt cheap to make compare to storyboarding, voice acting, and extensive editing.

Splitting the ladder would upset the ladder community, and blizzard is pushing esports, hard. It also gives them a chance to mix it up/address issues on ladder. So it's a free, easy patch to something that blizzard wants to see do well, as it means more games sold.

[mangosta71]

Dark Archon was nice for MCing scouting SCVs. Especially since the new terran units used a separate food counter, bringing your effective maximum up to 400. That's before you even get into broken shenanigans like medics healing zealots, siege tanks protected from melee by lines of DTs, observers serving as spotters for ghosts on low ground, arbiters yanking battlecruisers across the map...

[Eldariel]

Dark Archon was nice for MCing scouting SCVs. Especially since the new terran units used a separate food counter, bringing your effective maximum up to 400. That's before you even get into broken shenanigans like medics healing zealots, siege tanks protected from melee by lines of DTs, observers serving as spotters for ghosts on low ground, arbiters yanking battlecruisers across the map...

I was talking about competitive play. It didn't really plug any holes that needed filling though they did see some play as anti-energy types due to Feedback especially against Zerg since they double as Storm-enablers with Maelstrom. In that brief post-BW time when Broodlings were still heavily used they also saw some use as Pseudo-Templar that can't be Broodlinged.

And yeah, in superlategame Mind Control becomes a great ability due to the change in game paradigms. Recall Tanks were actually really, really good ('cause you can recall them in Siege Mode). In PvP you needed them to Feedback Arbiters and enemy Dark Archons/Templar and MC Carriers (or the energy units), in PvZ you Feedbacked Defilers and Maelstromed the **** outta everything (and MCd the occasional Ultra tho I never really saw MC used heavily in PvZ; Drone picks were pretty rare) and in PvT they were pretty much solely for Feedback on Science Vessels and MC on SCV (since nobody used Battlecruisers in TvP - Goons, Carriers, Arbiters & co. own them too hard) tho I heard stories of Maelstrom being used against Ghosts against Ran going for Lockdowns. But if you got your SCV you could get Tanks and then you could RecallTank for great justice.

[Dralnu]

I have a strange idea for TvZ. I've never seen it done before so I guess it's bad, but there's that glimmer of hope that I might have something here.

Basically, Marine + Ghost + Medivacs. The idea here is that I straight up counter infestors, the marines stop mass speedlings, and with enough ghosts I can mass snipe banelings (each snipe kills) or whatever else they throw at me to counter my marines. Cloak harass probably won't work because it comes so late that overseers would be easy to make, but I could still do nuke drops right as I engage in battles or just plain ol' marine medivac drops.

On small maps, 2 rax bunker pressure into expand. On big maps, 1 rax feign bunker pressure and expand. 3 refineries, rax count goes to 4, ghost academy research +energy and eventually cloak, starport for medivacs. With such a mobile force it might be worthwhile to get a raven (give the tech lab to a new rax being made after), push the creep back while waiting for ghost energy to fill.

Has anyone seen this done? Can it work, or are siege tanks too good?

[Karoht]

I also think all the races will be getting new units (or there will be no new ladder units) free for everyone on ladder. Why? Because the single player is the bulk of where the development costs are, so that will be sold. Giving away some free units on ladder is no big deal compared to giving away an entirely new campaign. New units are dirt cheap to make compare to storyboarding, voice acting, and extensive editing.

Splitting the ladder would upset the ladder community, and blizzard is pushing esports, hard. It also gives them a chance to mix it up/address issues on ladder. So it's a free, easy patch to something that blizzard wants to see do well, as it means more games sold.Exactly what I was saying, only better explained.

As for army balance, I'm sure they've had some units on standby and ready to go since WoL beta. It make sense to wait to see player feedback and playstyles before they tried to plug holes with new units. I can't wait to see what we all get.

[term1nally s1ck]

I have a strange idea for TvZ. I've never seen it done before so I guess it's bad, but there's that glimmer of hope that I might have something here.

Basically, Marine + Ghost + Medivacs. The idea here is that I straight up counter infestors, the marines stop mass speedlings, and with enough ghosts I can mass snipe banelings (each snipe kills) or whatever else they throw at me to counter my marines. Cloak harass probably won't work because it comes so late that overseers would be easy to make, but I could still do nuke drops right as I engage in battles or just plain ol' marine medivac drops.

On small maps, 2 rax bunker pressure into expand. On big maps, 1 rax feign bunker pressure and expand. 3 refineries, rax count goes to 4, ghost academy research +energy and eventually cloak, starport for medivacs. With such a mobile force it might be worthwhile to get a raven (give the tech lab to a new rax being made after), push the creep back while waiting for ghost energy to fill.

Has anyone seen this done? Can it work, or are siege tanks too good?

You can't both snipe banelings and still stutterstep marines. You'd die to mass baneling.

[faceroll]

I have a strange idea for TvZ. I've never seen it done before so I guess it's bad, but there's that glimmer of hope that I might have something here.

Basically, Marine + Ghost + Medivacs. The idea here is that I straight up counter infestors, the marines stop mass speedlings, and with enough ghosts I can mass snipe banelings (each snipe kills) or whatever else they throw at me to counter my marines. Cloak harass probably won't work because it comes so late that overseers would be easy to make, but I could still do nuke drops right as I engage in battles or just plain ol' marine medivac drops.

On small maps, 2 rax bunker pressure into expand. On big maps, 1 rax feign bunker pressure and expand. 3 refineries, rax count goes to 4, ghost academy research +energy and eventually cloak, starport for medivacs. With such a mobile force it might be worthwhile to get a raven (give the tech lab to a new rax being made after), push the creep back while waiting for ghost energy to fill.

Has anyone seen this done? Can it work, or are siege tanks too good?

I would want something that could handle the inevitable waves of roaches and ultras.

[Fan]

I would want something that could handle the inevitable waves of roaches and ultras.

Especially since Ultra's just got buffed via build time decrease.

[Legoshrimp]

I would want something that could handle the inevitable waves of roaches and ultras.

Like marines?

Also that strategy might work if you have 300-400 apm

[Suedars]

Like marines?

Also that strategy might work if you have 300-400 apm

Roaches are quite good against marines, and Ultras aren't bad either (they become amazing if you've got Fungal support).

[term1nally s1ck]

Ghost mech is extremely good. But it only works because ghosts are so good against all the counters to mech.

[Dralnu]

Mass ghost snipe annihilates ultralisks. I should have way more ghosts than they have ultra's by the time they're out. But ya, I won't be able to ghost micro and marine micro at the same time against banelings. Maybe if I was Puma :smallfrown:

[Eldariel]

Mass ghost snipe annihilates ultralisks. I should have way more ghosts than they have ultra's by the time they're out. But ya, I won't be able to ghost micro and marine micro at the same time against banelings. Maybe if I was Puma :smallfrown:

Step 1: Play more.
Step 2: Play faster.
Step 3: Play more accurately.
Step 4: Play even more.
Step 5: Play even more.
Step 6: Seriously, just play your life.
Step 7: Win GSL Code S with your insane micro.

[faceroll]

Speaking of micro, does anyone dance roaches? It seems like it could be pretty effective, since they heal and can also move, and presumably burrowed units don't pull aggro like attacking ones.

[Eldariel]

Speaking of micro, does anyone dance roaches? It seems like it could be pretty effective, since they heal and can also move, and presumably burrowed units don't pull aggro like attacking ones.

Of course. High level ZvZ is all about Roach micro (and Ling micro) nowadays.

[term1nally s1ck]

No, burrow takes too long to be efficient micro.

[Eldariel]

No, burrow takes too long to be efficient micro.

Given Roach regeneration, it's well worth it provided you have the APM to pull it off.

[Dralnu]

Step 1: Play more.
Step 2: Play faster.
Step 3: Play more accurately.
Step 4: Play even more.
Step 5: Play even more.
Step 6: Seriously, just play your life.
Step 7: Win GSL Code S with your insane micro.

I swear he isn't human. I think he's actually comprised of 4 robot supercomputers from the future.