You Have Forgotten the Face of Your Father [Prestige Class]

[unosarta]

Gunslinger

http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2010/094/d/2/Mystic_Gunslinger_by_Hideyoshi.jpg
[1] (http://browse.deviantart.com/?qh=&section=&q=gunslinger#/d2mzoaw)

“I deal only in steel.”

"First comes smiles, then comes lies. Last is gunfire."

“I do not aim with my hand; he who aims with his hand has forgotten the face of his father. I aim with my eye.

I do not shoot with my hand; He who shoots with his hand has forgotten the face of his father. I shoot with my mind.

I do not kill with my gun; he who kills with his gun has forgotten the face of his father. I kill with my heart.”

~Roland Deschain, human Gunslinger, Walker of the Wastes

Gunslingers are the protectors of the citizenry of world. They go places, and see things, that the paladins who fight against evil or the priests who pray to their gods, could never imagine. They travel all across the world, destroying what evil they find, and protecting those who cannot protect themselves and who try to live their lives through the savage and harsh times.

Gunslingers are sworn to an oath to destroy evil and protect the harmony of the world. They care not about race, or the amount of money a person may have. They care not even for wars between countries, and are just as willing to protect a human, dwarf, elf, orc, or even a goblin or other monstrous humanoid, providing those creatures are not evil.

BECOMING A GUNSLINGER
Becoming a Gunslinger boils strictly down to having another Gunslinger train you until he considers you ready for Gunslinger-dom. It is truly a process unique to the Gunslinger who undertakes it, and very personal for both involved.

ENTRY REQUIREMENTS
Base Attack Bonus: +4
Skills: Diplomacy 9 ranks
Feats: Ranged Smite or Sighted Challenge or Touch Spell
Alignment: Any Non-Evil
Special: Must have the Smite special ability, or the ability to cast 3rd level divine spells, or the Fighting Challenge special ability
Special: Must be trained as a Gunslinger by another Gunslinger

Class Skills
The Gunslinger's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Dex), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (history) (Int), Knowledge (nobility and royalty) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Knowledge (the planes) (Int), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), and Survival (Wis).
Skills Points at Each Level: 6 + int

Hit Dice: d10

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+1|
+1|
+2|
+1|Path of Word or Gun, Steady Hands, Gunslinger’s Oath

2nd|
+2|
+2|
+3|
+2|Fan the Hammer, Guns of the Patriarch

3rd|
+3|
+2|
+3|
+2|The Flow of Ka, Trapfinding, Second Step

4th|
+4|
+2|
+4|
+2|Sharpshooter’s Eyes

5th|
+5|
+3|
+4|
+3|Twisting Form

6th|
+6|
+3|
+5|
+3|The Winds of Ka, Third Step

7th|
+7|
+4|
+5|
+4|Path of the White

8th|
+8|
+4|
+6|
+4|Instant Reload

9th|
+9|
+4|
+6|
+4|Perfect Calm, Fourth Step

10th|
+10|
+5|
+7|
+5|Reincarnation
[/table]

Weapon Proficiencies: The Gunslinger gains proficiency with all non-exotic ranged weapons and one exotic ranged weapon of his choice, but gains no proficiency with any armor or shields.

Gunslinger’s Oath: The Gunslinger makes a vow as part of his training that has the basic tenets of Gunslinger belief.

The oath states that the Gunslinger will do anything in his power in order to protect an innocent. If there is more than one innocent in danger, the Gunslinger must try to protect both, to the best of his abilities. That is all the basic oath states. Violating the oath causes the Gunslinger to lose any supernatural powers that he has gained from this class for a period of 24 hours. This oath supersedes and replaces any other class based oaths or codes that the Gunslinger might have.

Path of Word or Gun (Ex): The Gunslingers are formed of two branches, those who follow the word, and those who follow the gun. In truth, both use the guns, but the path of words uses magic in addition, in order to protect, while the path of gun uses the power of their sharpshooting hands to slay evil. If the Gunslinger was able to cast divine spells before entering this class, he may choose to progress his casting, instead of his long-arm prowess. At every level besides first and tenth, he adds a level to the levels of the divine casting class he was in before entering this class for the purposes of spells per day (and spells known, if applicable). He gains no other benefits of gaining a level in that class. If he had more than one divine spellcasting class before entering the Gunslinger class, he must choose which class gains the benefits of each level.

The Gunslinger may instead choose, however, to follow the path of the gun. If he does so, he reduces the penalties for offhand attacks made with the Two-Weapon Fighting line of feats by 1 point per class level, and gains a bonus to all ranged damage rolls equal to his Charisma modifier. Any time the Gunslinger makes a ranged full attack against a single creature, he may choose to force that creature to make a (DC 10 + Gunslinger levels + Charisma modifier) Will save or become unable to attack (with magic or physically) any creature besides the Gunslinger for 3 rounds. He may only have this ability active on one creature at a time.

Paladins who enter this class progress Smite Evil as if they gained Paladin levels at every odd Gunslinger level. Knights who enter this class progress Fighting Challenge and Test of Mettle at the same rate.

He progresses another step at third level and every three levels thereafter.

Second Step: The Path of the Gun Gunslinger gains a +4 Enhancement bonus to Dexterity and Strength, as well as a +3 Competency bonus to Survival checks.
The Path of the Word Gunslinger gains a +4 Enhancement bonus to Charisma and Wisdom, as well as a +3 Competency bonus to all Diplomacy checks.
These are supernatural effects.

Third Step: The Path of the Gun Gunslinger may make a Combat Maneuver as a ranged attack, as a full round action. A Combat Maneuver is defined as in Pathfinder, or as a Bull Rush, Disarm, Feint, Grapple, Sunder, or Trip attempt. He may not use this ability to Grapple. After using this ability, the Gunslinger must wait 5 rounds before using it again.
The Path of the Word Gunslinger may cast a spell as part of a ranged attack, as a full action. The spell must have a range of touch, and cannot be a personal spell. If the Gunslinger uses this ability on his allies, it deals no damage. If used on opponents, it deals normal damage. After using this ability, the Gunslinger must wait 5 rounds before using it again.
These are supernatural effects.

Fourth Step: The Path of the Gun Gunslinger can shoot his enemies, no matter the angle, no matter the cover, and with precise accuracy. However, doing so is incredibly tiring, and the ultimate technique of the Gunslingers. Starting at tenth level, the Gunslinger may, once per day, as a full round action, make a single ranged attack roll, and use it against every enemy within 100 feet of himself. These attacks do not consume ammunition. Any attack that connects deals double normal damage. This attack ignores cover and concealment. However, in the process of this attack, the Gunslinger becomes exhausted, as the condition, for the rest of the encounter.
The Path of the Word Gunslinger may dominate the minds of others. Doing so is exhausting. As a full round action, once per day, the Gunslinger may force all creatures within 30 feet to make a Will save (DC 10 + Gunslinger levels + Charisma modifier) or become Dominated, as the spell, until the end of the encounter, under the Gunslinger's control. They may make a Will save every round to break out of the effect. He must concentrate every round that they are dominated. If he takes any damage, he must make a Concentration check equal to the damage or lose concentration and lose control of the dominated creatures. After the encounter ends, the domination remains for up to an hour afterward. After using this ability, the Gunslinger becomes exhausted for the rest of the encounter, and one hour afterward.
These are supernatural effects.

Steady Hands (Ex): Gunslingers are trained to keep their hands steady, even during the most trying of times, so as to hit straight. This is one of the first, and also most important lessons that a gunslinger learns. The Gunslinger may, once per round take 10 on a single ranged attack roll, and may also take 10 on Disable Device, and Sleight of Hand checks, even when under extreme duress such as during combat.

Fan the Hammer (Ex): A secret Gunslinger trick that allows the gunslinger to shoot rapidly, more rapidly than the eye can follow, and also allows the Gunslinger to use more than one gun, without losing his accuracy to falter. Starting at second level, the Gunslinger may reload his ranged weapon as a swift action, given he has the necessary ammunition, no matter how his hands are occupied. He may use this ability in the middle of his full attack, if necessary. In addition, he may make an additional attack at his highest attack bonus whenever he makes a full attack. This extra attack does not stack with other effects that grant extra attacks, unless they are given by Gunslinger class abilities. All other attacks in that attack action take a -1 penalty to the Attack Roll.

Guns of the Patriarch (Su): The Gunslinger's guns are passed down from generation to generation, from father to son (or mother to daughter). They are encrusted with mud and blood from the battles in which they have fought, and their spirit grows with that of their wielder. Starting at second level, the Gunslinger gains a gun or ranged weapon that he is proficient with, either found, passed down, given, or stolen. The weapon increases in power as the Gunslinger does, gaining an enhancement as noted on the following table.
{table=head]Level|Enhancement Bonus

1|+1

2|+1

3|+2

4|+2

5|+3

6|+3

7|+4

8|+4

9|+5

10|+5[/table]
The Gunslinger may pay extra money in order to have his weapons enchanted. The effective bonus can still never reach more than +10. He may have a pair of guns with this effect, but he must split the bonus between them.

If the Gunslinger's Guns of the Patriarch are destroyed, he may reforge them as a week long ritual, never doing anything other than remaking his weapons. He instinctively knows how to remake them, and needs not make a Craft (Weaponsmithing) check while reforging them.

Trapfinding (Ex): The Gunslinger can detect traps and other attempts on his life before his eyes can even see them, and disable them with his eternally steady hands. Starting at third level, he gains the effects of the Trapfinding special ability, as the Rogue ability.

The Flow of Ka (Ex, Sp): Ka, a word that translates to something like “fate”, is the force that guides all Gunslingers, and all of existance. The Gunslinger knows the flow of Ka, and can follow its path with extreme accuracy. Starting at third level, the Gunslinger always knows the location of his Guns of the Patriarch, and he may use the Locate Object spell as a spell like ability, once per hour.

Sharpshooter’s Eyes (Ex): The Gunslinger’s eyes are specially trained to catch every detail in any situation that is presented to them, careful to look closer than many would think possible. Starting at fourth level, the Gunslinger gains a bonus to all saving throws made against Illusion spells and all Spot checks equal to his Charisma modifier, as well as Low Light Vision. This vision increases to Darkvision out to 30 feet at seventh level. He may, once per day as a standard action, gain the effects of the See Invisibility spell, with a caster level equal to his Character level (this effect is mundane, simply the extremely precise eyesight of the Gunslinger, and cannot be dispelled). The effect only lasts for up to one minute, or until the end of the encounter, whichever comes first. He may use this ability an additional time at tenth level. In addition, the Gunslinger permanently gains the benefits of the Detect Evil spell. This is a supernatural effect. If he already had an ability that granted him the effects of the Detect Evil spell, the range of the spell doubles.

Twisting Form (Ex): The Gunslinger is able to twist his form to avoid oncoming attacks, and has especially quick reflexes that beggar imagination. Starting at fifth level, the Gunslinger gains a dodge bonus to Armor Class equal to half his Gunslinger levels, rounded down. Once per encounter, the Gunslinger may, as a swift action, twist and bend, avoiding attacks wherever they come. He gains a 20% miss chance, which increases to a 40% miss chance against ranged attacks. This effect lasts for 1 round. Any attack that misses him (at any time) grants him a +1 Insight bonus to ranged attack rolls made against the target that attacked him, lasting 3 rounds. This bonus is cumulative, but does not refresh the duration. The bonus cannot reach higher than +5 at any time.

The Winds of Ka (Ex): The Gunslinger has learned to follow his Ka to wherever it takes him. Starting at sixth level, the Gunslinger may move like the wind. As a swift action, he may move up to half of his base land speed. He may use this ability at will. He may not use this ability in the same round as he moves normally.

Path of the White (Su): The Gunslinger follows the path of the White, that of truth and justice. The Gunslinger, while following a path of death, can reduce the pain and injuries of others through a reassuring touch, a simple word, or a kind look. Starting at seventh level, the Gunslinger may heal one target within 10 feet as a swift action, for a number of hit points equal to the Gunslinger’s Charisma modifier d6 damage. After using this ability, the Gunslinger must wait 1d4 rounds before using it again. The Gunslinger may not heal himself with this ability. The Gunslinger may not use this ability outside of combat. The Gunslinger may not use this ability to heal a creature who has more than half of their hit points remaining.

Instant Reload (Ex): The Gunslinger is trained to be able to reload as swiftly as possible, faster than may seem possible. Starting at eighth level, he may reload all ranged weapons he is currently wielding as a free action at any time. In addition, he may make an additional attack at his highest attack bonus -5 when he makes a ranged full attack. This extra attack does not stack with other effects that grant extra attacks, unless they are given by Gunslinger class abilities.

Perfect Calm (Ex): The Gunslinger may make his hands less stable in order to have a chance of hitting his opponent harder, and his calm becomes piercingly frightening. Starting at ninth level, the Gunslinger may automatically make a critical hit on the next ranged attack that he makes that hits a target, a number of times per day equal to his Charisma modifier. He must still roll to confirm the critical hit. He must actually roll a dice in order to gain this benefit. In addition, he gains a Morale bonus to Intimidate checks, and all Will saves equal to his Charisma modifier.

Reincarnation (Su): The Gunslinger, having gained his final quest, and his final goal, becomes literally past death. Though death may come to his doorstep upon his bone white horse, it is as an equal, not to come collect. Starting at tenth level, the Gunslinger cannot permanently die. As long as his Gun of the Patriarch remains whole, the Gunslinger regenerates 1d10 days after dying, within 2 miles of his Guns of the Patriarch.

PLAYING A GUNSLINGER
Gunslingers play very, very similarly to Paladins or Knights, albeit with guns or ranged weapons. Even the spellcasting Gunslingers still act like a Paladin in general.
Combat: Most Gunslingers begin and maintain combat from range. They are able to move quite swiftly, and as such may move quite a bit around the battlefield, in addition to their ranged abilities, especially when he gains the Flow of Ka and the Winds of Ka abilities.
Advancement: Advancement after the Gunslinger class basically amounts to the previous class you had, or a prestige class designed for that class. For instance, a Cleric 6/Gunslinger 10 could take a level of a Divine Spellcasting progression prestige class, or another level of Cleric, although those appear to be the more solid options. Because there are so few ranged prestige classes for the other entry classes, it is mostly likely in the interest of the player to continue with more of the base class levels.
Resources: The Gunslingers can rely on a large amount of local help, especially from the people they are best known to protect. Most races protect their own people, but they cannot refuse an innocent or good creature in danger.

GUNSLINGERS IN THE WORLD
”Roland, he was a strange one. He blew into town one day, like the winds of fate. He changed us, and although some say not for the better, I think otherwise. We had been having a problem with some local bandits, and he took notice of our problem, and asked the Three, danced his dance, and took care of our problem. He never returned, but we always remember him in our prayers to the Ten.”

Brother Eustace Or-Tal, priest of Slortar in the hamlet of Hirrias-Mar, by the southern border

Gunslingers are especially looked up to, especially by peasantry, or those unable to defend themselves. Although the Gunslingers take upon a different role in society based on the path they take, either word or gun, they are still especially respected. Gunslingers of the word tend to become healers or wise men, while those of the gun become protectors and vigilantes, although in the barren lands of the worlds, one could say that there is no justice besides the cold bite of lead.
Daily Life: Most Gunslingers spend some time of their day practicing with their ranged weapons, be it guns, bows, or even slings (sling wielding Gunslingers are rare, but not unheard of). The name Gunslinger implies only that they follow the path of the Gunslinger and the oath thereof, not that they directly wield guns. The most famous Gunslingers, of Intolar, do wield guns, but they are not the only race.
Notables: Roland Deschain, Walker of the Wastes, is one of the most famous Gunslingers, at least in the human lands. He has been sighted in just about every smaller town in the outer edge of the human kingdoms. It is said he constantly wanders, searching for his lost love, who died years ago. He has been called cruel, or harsh, but he follows his path relentlessly, and he keeps his oath, no matter the cost.
Organizations: The Gunslingers, although they used to have an extensive organization, were killed or driven out of work by many factors, most of which being the extensive enemies they racked up. Now they work mostly as solitary peacebringers.

NPC Reaction
Gunslingers are almost universally loved by the peasantry that have interacted with them. They are very well regarded all around, as both justice bringers and healers, and they are given the same kinds of respect as Paladins.

GUNSLINGERS IN THE GAME
Gunslingers are not an especially strong class, for although they do have a rather strong chassis, including full Base Attack Bonus, good Ref, medium will, a d10 hit dice, the caster section of the class loses two caster levels in order to gain mostly martial benefits, and the martial side of the class remains only martial, with many of their class abilities not even functioning with the Gunslinger class abilities without extra investment (this is intentional).
Adaptation: This fluff is the more general form of the Zaaman-Rul (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11636268&postcount=363). Really, a ranged Paladin, Cleric or Knight is kind of already shoehorned into a few key roles, but the fluff isn’t entirely necessary to the concept of the class.
Encounters: Most encounters with a Gunslinger, unless the party is entirely evil, will be relatively peaceful. The Gunslinger might indeed help the party against a foe if he thought they needed it.

[Kuma Kode]

he may choose to force that creature to make a (DC 10 + Gunslinger levels + Charisma modifier) To make a what?


Steady Hands: Gunslingers are trained to keep their hands steady, even during the most trying of times, so as to hit straight. This is one of the first, and also most important lessons that a gunslinger learns. The Gunslinger may take 10 on all ranged attack rolls, Disable Device, and Sleight of Hand checks, even when under extreme duress such as during combat.Odd. But not overpowering.


Fan the Hammer (Ex): A secret Gunslinger trick that allows the gunslinger to shoot rapidly, more rapidly than the eye can follow, and also allows the Gunslinger to use more than one gun, without losing his accuracy to falter. Starting at second level, the Gunslinger may reload his ranged weapon as a swift action, given he has the necessary ammunition, no matter how his hands are occupied. He may use this ability in the middle of his full attack, if necessary. In addition, he may make an additional attack at his highest attack bonus whenever he makes a full attack. Did you intend for this to only allow two attacks with one gun and one with the other, regardless of Base Attack? Swift actions can only be taken once per round.


Perfect Calm : The Gunslinger’s hands become even more solid and stable, and his calm is piercing, and almost frightening. Starting at sixth level, the Gunslinger may take 15 on all ranged attack rolls, Disable Device, and Sleight of Hand checks, even when under extreme duress such as during combat. In addition, he gains a Morale bonus to all saving throws made against fear effects, and against all effects that change the Gunslinger’s emotions (such as the rage spell, the crushing despair spell, etc etc). With all the numeric bonuses the gunslinger is getting for his weapons, this seems almost redundant. I'm not sure about the balance on completely doing away with critical failures and always being able to take a pretty good roll.


Path of the White (Su): The Gunslinger follows the path of the White, that of truth and justice. The Gunslinger, while following a path of death, can reduce the pain and injuries of others through a reassuring touch, a simple word, or a kind look. Starting at seventh level, the Gunslinger may heal one target within 10 feet as a swift action, for a number of hit points equal to the Gunslinger’s Charisma modifier d6 damage. A creature healed in this way may only benefit from this ability once per encounter. The Gunslinger may not heal himself with this ability. Free out-of-combat healing better than a cleric or druid? The only other thing I can think of like that is the Dread Necromancer, and that at least requires everyone to be undead.


Rapid Reload (Ex): The Gunslinger is trained to be able to reload as swiftly as possible, faster than may seem possible. Starting at eighth level, he may reload all ranged weapons he is currently wielding as a free action at any time. In addition, he may make an additional attack at his highest attack bonus -5 when he makes a ranged full attack. I like this class. The biggest thing that bugs me about it is that you're best off using a bow. The mechanics just say "ranged weapon," so you'd get the most attacks with a bow without needing to expend swift actions (which you only get one of) to reload.

You may want to link to information about your guns, though. How they function seems kind of pivotal to some of the abilities. I'm assuming they're a move or full-round action to reload normally.

[unosarta]

To make a what?
Will save, I think (it's hard to see exactly where you were quoting).


Odd. But not overpowering
How is it odd, exactly?


Did you intend for this to only allow two attacks with one gun and one with the other, regardless of Base Attack? Swift actions can only be taken once per round.
Depends on the gun you use, obviously. I forgot to link the Firearms Rules, which is my bad. They are right here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187811) I will link them in the OP.


With all the numeric bonuses the gunslinger is getting for his weapons, this seems almost redundant. I'm not sure about the balance on completely doing away with critical failures and always being able to take a pretty good roll.
Getting rid of critical failures means no critical hits, unless you drastically extend the crit range of your weapon, which isn't even remotely possible with the firearm rules. The roll is certainly pretty good yes, but that means that some abilities that the character gets from firearms (most have a pretty okay critical multiplier) is also negated. It is a choice, and the character can always choose to roll instead.


Free out-of-combat healing better than a cleric or druid? The only other thing I can think of like that is the Dread Necromancer, and that at least requires everyone to be undead.
Good point. Maybe only allow it to be used in combat?


I like this class. The biggest thing that bugs me about it is that you're best off using a bow. The mechanics just say "ranged weapon," so you'd get the most attacks with a bow without needing to expend swift actions (which you only get one of) to reload.
I wanted to keep it open to all weapons, since not everyone is going to be using a gun, although they will all need to be proficient with it. The firearm rules, for the most common gun, which is essentially a five-shooter, means you actually don't only get one attack with each gun, but rather 5 attacks with each gun, and can reload the weapon as a swift action, no matter his hands are occupied, so it isn't that bad (you can get 15 attacks a round with those guns, which is unlikely to happen). I have a version on a different thread that is setting specific, although the mechanics are the same, and I have been getting critiques from that, and it might have been boosted in that thread. I will have to copy the other one over.


You may want to link to information about your guns, though. How they function seems kind of pivotal to some of the abilities. I'm assuming they're a move or full-round action to reload normally.
See above. The rules are move action to reload, and a free action if you have Rapid Reload (the feat), but the Fan the Hammer ability has some other benefits (usable during full attack, no need for a free hand, etc etc).

[Doorhandle]

The rules are move action to reload, and a free action if you have Rapid Reload (the feat), but the Fan the Hammer ability has some other benefits (usable during full attack, no need for a free hand, etc etc).

Maybe note the befits it provides to stop it from being a pseudo-dead level?

Likeing this class though.

[arguskos]

Maybe note the befits it provides to stop it from being a pseudo-dead level?

Likeing this class though.
Among other things, Fan the Hammer gives you a free extra attack at your highest attack bonus, and says so in the description. That alone is not a dead level.

[unosarta]

Good point.

I updated everything, including some clarifications and skill list updates (because WTF Unosarta, why wasn't spot on that skill list), and I switched around Perfect Calm and Winds of Ka. I still can't think of a good replacement for Perfect Winds, but I will try to sleep on it.

[unosarta]

Okay, I changed the Perfect Calm ability to one that, if you hit the target while rolling the dice, a number of times per day equal to the Gunslinger's Charisma modifier, you may automatically critically hit on that attack, regardless of your critical range. This gives the character interesting choices for as to how he reacts, for he can either go really steady with a lower chance of missing, or go for a harder hitting attack, that does have a chance of missing. Of course, said attack has no effect against creatures who are immune to critical hits, so I am not too sure about it, but it seems okay. Now the only thing I am thinking is if I could change it to a lower level ability, maybe folded into Steady Hands, because they seem to work together so well, and maybe come up with a different ability for the ninth level slot. Ideas?

[Shadow Lord]

Hm.... I just realized something awesome with this class. You can go nova, dual wielding guns, and get nine or so Crits, in one round. Which is totally awesome :smallcool:

Totally Awesome class. Have a cookie.

http://www.hackronym.com/cookie-recipes.jpg

[Circle of Life]

Without touching on the other abilities, I have to ask, why is a full-BAB class granting an additional +1/level bonus to attack rolls? At that point, you're either hitting on a 2+, or everyone else in your party pretty much needs a 20 to hit. I understand you want an alternative to progressing spellcasting for knights or martial paladins that enter the PrC, but what's the reasoning for such a massive boost to attack rolls?

[unosarta]

Hm.... I just realized something awesome with this class. You can go nova, dual wielding guns, and get nine or so Crits, in one round. Which is totally awesome :smallcool:
Oh god, you would run out of ammunition so fast, though.

I wonder how many attacks they can get, using Two Weapon Fighting (assuming all of the feats).

4 Attacks for the Paladin character at level 20.
2 From Gusnlinger class (1 at full, 1 at -5).
1 From wielding weapon in off hand (both weapons take a -4 penalty).
1 Additional, from ITWF. (-5)
1 Final from GTWF. (-10)

That gives us +16/+16/+16/+11/+11/+11/+6/+6/+1.
Maybe I should give a class feature that removes the penalties from Two Weapon Fighting while wielding one handed ranged weapons? Or just lower them to the light penalties?

@Arguskos; does the Revolver count as a light weapon? Or no?


Totally Awesome class. Have a cookie.

http://www.hackronym.com/cookie-recipes.jpg

Thank you!



Without touching on the other abilities, I have to ask, why is a full-BAB class granting an additional +1/level bonus to attack rolls? At that point, you're either hitting on a 2+, or everyone else in your party pretty much needs a 20 to hit. I understand you want an alternative to progressing spellcasting for knights or martial paladins that enter the PrC, but what's the reasoning for such a massive boost to attack rolls?
This is a good point. What do you suggest? I could lower the bonus to 1/2 level. Mostly, I wanted to give the non-spellcasters a bonus that would be, you know, partly useful. Also, it helped offset the penalties from Two Weapon Fighting, which I think I am going to make a requirement for this class (after changing PBS to Rapid Reload).

[Circle of Life]

Also, it helped offset the penalties from Two Weapon Fighting, which I think I am going to make a requirement for this class (after changing PBS to Rapid Reload).

Then that's exactly what it should do.

"A Gunslinger that chooses to follow this path reduces the penalties for offhand attacks made with the Two-Weapon Fighting line of feats by 1 point per class level."

Yes, this means your offhand attacks eventually become more accurate than your mainhand. "I am not lefthanded", or something.

Alternately, apply a lesser bonus to all iterative attacks derived from base attack bonus. 1/4 class level to first iterative, 1/2 to second, full to third. Keeps them relevant longer.

[unosarta]

Then that's exactly what it should do.

"A Gunslinger that chooses to follow this path reduces the penalties for offhand attacks made with the Two-Weapon Fighting line of feats by 1 point per class level."

Yes, this means your offhand attacks eventually become more accurate than your mainhand. "I am not lefthanded", or something.
Good idea.


Alternately, apply a lesser bonus to all iterative attacks derived from base attack bonus. 1/4 class level to first iterative, 1/2 to second, full to third. Keeps them relevant longer.
This is also a good idea.

Would you mind if I implemented one, the other, or possibly both?

[Circle of Life]

I think both would be overkill, but that's for you to decide. Feel free.

[unosarta]

I think both would be overkill, but that's for you to decide. Feel free.

I implemented the first. Thanks for the advice! :smallsmile:

[arguskos]

unosarta, no, neither the Revolver or the Pistol from Firearms (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187811)! is a light weapon, instead both being one-handed weapons. The Intolian P-4 is though. ;)

[wiimanclassic]

So it grants rapid reload but also requires you have it to enter? Is this a typo or is it improving rapid reload?

[Kuma Kode]

Will save, I think (it's hard to see exactly where you were quoting). Path of Word or Gun. You don't actually state what it requires.


How is it odd, exactly? I've never seen anything that allows taking 10 on attack rolls or saving throws. The fact these rolls automatically fail or succeed on a roll of 1 or 20, regardless of the bonus, indicates that these rolls are inherently unpredictable. I'm not saying it's wrong, just that it is highly unusual.


Getting rid of critical failures means no critical hits, unless you drastically extend the crit range of your weapon, which isn't even remotely possible with the firearm rules. The roll is certainly pretty good yes, but that means that some abilities that the character gets from firearms (most have a pretty okay critical multiplier) is also negated. It is a choice, and the character can always choose to roll instead. Generally, crit-fishing is risky and unreliable even if you build for it. For a weapon that crits like a greataxe, it's really not anything to build a plan around. Being able to pretty much never miss (you're already a full-BAB attacker) is a far better option than hoping for that less than 5% chance to do triple damage.


Good point. Maybe only allow it to be used in combat? Even then, you'll run into problems of what constitutes combat. How close would you have to be to an enemy to use it? Can you use it while sneaking up on something? Does a monster have to be aware of you for you to use it? You're better off with either some kind of cost like ability damage, usage limit, or require you to strike an enemy with an attack like a crusader.


I wanted to keep it open to all weapons, since not everyone is going to be using a gun, although they will all need to be proficient with it. The firearm rules, for the most common gun, which is essentially a five-shooter, means you actually don't only get one attack with each gun, but rather 5 attacks with each gun, and can reload the weapon as a swift action, no matter his hands are occupied, so it isn't that bad (you can get 15 attacks a round with those guns, which is unlikely to happen). I have a version on a different thread that is setting specific, although the mechanics are the same, and I have been getting critiques from that, and it might have been boosted in that thread. I will have to copy the other one over. I understand wanting to make it not strictly gun-only, and the link to firearm rules helps me put things into perspective much more nicely. See, I was assuming flintlock, which have ridiculous reload times. The assumption was likely based on the fact my own settings have a Renassance-level tech.

[unosarta]

@Arguskos; Oh, okay, cool. Well, that still works out with the change to the Path of the Gun.


So it grants rapid reload but also requires you have it to enter? Is this a typo or is it improving rapid reload?

Read the Rapid Reload ability. It is better than the feat by quite a bit.


Path of Word or Gun. You don't actually state what it requires.
Oh, that is what I assumed, and I edited it as a Will save.


I've never seen anything that allows taking 10 on attack rolls or saving throws. The fact these rolls automatically fail or succeed on a roll of 1 or 20, regardless of the bonus, indicates that these rolls are inherently unpredictable. I'm not saying it's wrong, just that it is highly unusual.
Well, you could say that about a lot of things. However, there specifically is an effect that does mirror this, albeit in a more effective way. The Stance of Perfect Order, a 6th level stance from ToB. It lets you treat any d20 roll as an 11, once per round. It is ever so slightly different, but the effect is essentially the same, albeit once per round.


Generally, crit-fishing is risky and unreliable even if you build for it. For a weapon that crits like a greataxe, it's really not anything to build a plan around. Being able to pretty much never miss (you're already a full-BAB attacker) is a far better option than hoping for that less than 5% chance to do triple damage.
I think it depends. There is certainly no guarantee that the Gunslinger will hit, even with full BAB. For instance, consider a Gunslinger who has 6 levels in a Full BAB class and has taken their first level of Gunslinger, and now has the Steady Hands ability. If he or she was to go up against a, for instance, huge air elemental, which is right on his CR, he would miss every time even if he had an 18 in Dexterity, which doesn't exactly seem super likely, unless he had some really nice weapons. Admittedly, the difference in AC and attack roll is only one, but still.

If you really think that it is too good, what would be a good way to fix it while keeping the basic idea of the ability? Make it only once per round?


Even then, you'll run into problems of what constitutes combat. How close would you have to be to an enemy to use it? Can you use it while sneaking up on something? Does a monster have to be aware of you for you to use it? You're better off with either some kind of cost like ability damage, usage limit, or require you to strike an enemy with an attack like a crusader.
Strike an enemy is kind of weird, ability damage makes it all but useless, so my only option appears to be usage limit. I am not planning on making it per day, so my only option is per encounter, in which case, it will still have to have something saying it cannot be used outside of combat. So, I literally cannot win here.


I understand wanting to make it not strictly gun-only, and the link to firearm rules helps me put things into perspective much more nicely. See, I was assuming flintlock, which have ridiculous reload times. The assumption was likely based on the fact my own settings have a Renassance-level tech.
Oh jeez. Technically, the class abilities work just as well with flintlocks, at least once you get the upgraded Rapid Reload. Before that, you are kind of screwed.

[eftexar]

Well It definitely has some good fluff. My concern would be the number of abilities some features grant, like: Rapid Reload and Fan of the Hammer. While not overpowering (and I wouldn't even consider this if all the features weren't as good as they are), they do grant quite a bit for a single level in a prestige class. Although the prerequisites might balance this. Whats the minimum level of entry?

[unosarta]

Well It definitely has some good fluff. My concern would be the number of abilities some features grant, like: Rapid Reload and Fan of the Hammer. While not overpowering (and I wouldn't even consider this if all the features weren't as good as they are), they do grant quite a bit for a single level in a prestige class. Although the prerequisites might balance this. Whats the minimum level of entry?
I dunno. If I removed most of the extras, the level would be relatively boring. For instance, fan the hammer, is essentially the same as Rapid Reload, but helps more for longer reload time weapons, since it is always 1 swift action to reload. Without that extra bit, it is rather boring.

Entry point is level 6.

[Kuma Kode]

Well, you could say that about a lot of things. However, there specifically is an effect that does mirror this, albeit in a more effective way. The Stance of Perfect Order, a 6th level stance from ToB. It lets you treat any d20 roll as an 11, once per round. It is ever so slightly different, but the effect is essentially the same, albeit once per round. Yeah, it's an always-on 6th level stance. That's what I mean, it might be kinda powerful.


I think it depends. There is certainly no guarantee that the Gunslinger will hit, even with full BAB. For instance, consider a Gunslinger who has 6 levels in a Full BAB class and has taken their first level of Gunslinger, and now has the Steady Hands ability. If he or she was to go up against a, for instance, huge air elemental, which is right on his CR, he would miss every time even if he had an 18 in Dexterity, which doesn't exactly seem super likely, unless he had some really nice weapons. Admittedly, the difference in AC and attack roll is only one, but still. You also forgot enhancement bonuses to the guns or masterwork, which any self-respecting gunslinger would have by 7th level. Looking through the monster manual, all the CR 7 monsters that couldn't be auto-hit by this hypothetical gunslinger only miss his margin by 1-3 points, which can be bridge by enhancement bonuses, feats, and possibly your own Gunslinger level if you took Path of the Gun. Once this improves to 15, the question goes out the window; you can auto-hit pretty much anything at that time, especially if you're fighting multiple weak creatures instead of a single tanky monster.


If you really think that it is too good, what would be a good way to fix it while keeping the basic idea of the ability? Make it only once per round? Once per round is a good compromise. They can choose to fire a hail of bullets if they want, but they also have the choice to auto-hit at least once, especially when it counts.


Strike an enemy is kind of weird, ability damage makes it all but useless, so my only option appears to be usage limit. I am not planning on making it per day, so my only option is per encounter, in which case, it will still have to have something saying it cannot be used outside of combat. So, I literally cannot win here.
Maybe have it like the dragon shaman's aura (dragon shaman, right?) or whichever it is that heals, but only up to half health.

[unosarta]

You also forgot enhancement bonuses to the guns or masterwork, which any self-respecting gunslinger would have by 7th level. Looking through the monster manual, all the CR 7 monsters that couldn't be auto-hit by this hypothetical gunslinger only miss his margin by 1-3 points, which can be bridge by enhancement bonuses, feats, and possibly your own Gunslinger level if you took Path of the Gun. Once this improves to 15, the question goes out the window; you can auto-hit pretty much anything at that time, especially if you're fighting multiple weak creatures instead of a single tanky monster.
Good points.


Once per round is a good compromise. They can choose to fire a hail of bullets if they want, but they also have the choice to auto-hit at least once, especially when it counts.
Yeah, that makes sense.


Maybe have it like the dragon shaman's aura (dragon shaman, right?) or whichever it is that heals, but only up to half health.
Oh, this isn't a bad idea at all.

[eftexar]

Well my concern wasn't necessarily the power of the abilities itself, but what level they were granted at. At a level 6 entry they're fine how they are.

[I, Dashing Cube]

First, I must say I like this class, and it truly captures the image of the gunslinger. The only things that I might have problems with are the aligment restriction and the oath, because I feel that Roland isn't what I would consider a shining paragon of goodness and he left many an innocent to die while on his quest, but still was a great gunslinger (or half of one at least). On the other hand, breaking the oath only makes a Gunslinger lose the Path of the White, so it might not be all that bad, especially if it supersedes any other code.

[unosarta]

Well my concern wasn't necessarily the power of the abilities itself, but what level they were granted at. At a level 6 entry they're fine how they are.
Okay. Yeah, that is definitely a valid concern, and something I was wondering about before some of the comments here.


First, I must say I like this class, and it truly captures the image of the gunslinger. The only things that I might have problems with are the aligment restriction and the oath, because I feel that Roland isn't what I would consider a shining paragon of goodness and he left many an innocent to die while on his quest, but still was a great gunslinger (or half of one at least). On the other hand, breaking the oath only makes a Gunslinger lose the Path of the White, so it might not be all that bad, especially if it supersedes any other code.
Yeah, Roland was... an interesting character. Also, you are the first person to actively and explicitly mention the Dark Tower, so you get a cookie.

Anyway. In truth, Roland is in a real moral grey area. You see, Roland is not on a quest to save innocents, or do anything like that, although I guess you could say he is, in a way. His real quest is to save the Dark Tower, and although he does not start out with the motive to save it, he certainly gains it close to the end (funny thing; I still haven't fully finished the Dark Tower series. Still halfway through the seventh book). The Dark Tower of course, is sort of like a metaphor for all of existance. By destroying it, the Red King plans to destroy every world, and every person in every world. So, in a way, Roland's quest is the ultimate good. Yes, he makes choices that might be considered morally-ishy (although usually with reason), but the end result saves so many more lives, truly, one could say, infinitely more lives, that it honestly ends up being, as far as I can tell, a good act. An act so fundamentally good that it wouldn't really matter to me if he killed all of the town of Tull without provocation (which is not the case), his actions and his motivation are still so good that it probably outweighs most of the rest of his actions, by a large magnitude. Of course, this also depends on the outcome of the book, which I don't know, but that shouldn't remove the fundamental aspect of my point.

:smallbiggrin:

[Shadow Lord]

I have never seen the first book in the Dark Tower series. I'm not kidding, I can never find that gods damned book; it's always just not there. It scares me a little.

[unosarta]

I have never seen the first book in the Dark Tower series. I'm not kidding, I can never find that gods damned book; it's always just not there. It scares me a little.
That is actually pretty funny, since I read the first four (including the first book) at a library in Japan. Like, it was the prefectural library for Gunma, which I will be honest, isn't that big, and it had all four of them in English.

So, I dunno what your library is doing, man. :smallwink:

[Shadow Lord]

That is actually pretty funny, since I read the first four (including the first book) at a library in Japan. Like, it was the prefectural library for Gunma, which I will be honest, isn't that big, and it had all four of them in English.

So, I dunno what your library is doing, man. :smallwink:

And it's even more funny when my Library is actually pretty big sized. And that's not the only problem; I've gone to other libraries, and they didn't have it either. I'm a little worried that there's a conspiracy at this point.

[unosarta]

And it's even more funny when my Library is actually pretty big sized. And that's not the only problem; I've gone to other libraries, and they didn't have it either. I'm a little worried that there's a conspiracy at this point.

It's possible you are looking for it in the wrong section? You should ask the librarians for help, that is what they are there for.

[Shadow Lord]

It's possible you are looking for it in the wrong section? You should ask the librarians for help, that is what they are there for.

Oh no, I found the fourth book in the series. But that's the only book that I can find; heck, I even asked my Dad, and he actually has it, but he couldn't find it. And he has a super organized book shelf so I was just like, " Wut? WUT?! "

[unosarta]

Oh no, I found the fourth book in the series. But that's the only book that I can find; heck, I even asked my Dad, and he actually has it, but he couldn't find it. And he has a super organized book shelf so I was just like, " Wut? WUT?! "

Well, that is certainly unfortunate. I hope you find it in due time. :smallfrown:

[TravelLog]

I really like this, especially as a fan of the Dark Tower series, but I feel like, while strong and flavorful, it just doesn't... I don't know...shine the way I would want a class based on Roland to. The abilities fit certainly, but I'd like to see more options and a deepening of the Paths. As a character, Roland has such an enormous affect on the world, his environment, and the people he meets, something which I feel should be reflected in the class (especially as part of a capstone). Mechanically, I really enjoy the class, I just want to be able to say I love it, if that makes any sense.

Another note (if you haven't finished the books yet, DO NOT look at this):

Since Roland gets repeatedly reincarnated every time he reaches the tower, you might want to think about a capstone relating to that somehow.

Anyway, in summary, great class, though I'd like some additions.
Also, please do an RF/Walter o'Dim/Marten Broadcloak PrC. I will shower you with internets.

[unosarta]

I really like this, especially as a fan of the Dark Tower series, but I feel like, while strong and flavorful, it just doesn't... I don't know...shine the way I would want a class based on Roland to. The abilities fit certainly, but I'd like to see more options and a deepening of the Paths. As a character, Roland has such an enormous affect on the world, his environment, and the people he meets, something which I feel should be reflected in the class (especially as part of a capstone). Mechanically, I really enjoy the class, I just want to be able to say I love it, if that makes any sense.
What exactly about it do you think did not allow it to "shine"? This is a completely serious question, I think it's really important, but I can't change anything if I don't have any specifics.

This class does have an affect on the world, however that is not something that can really be done mechanically, and in my opinion, has more to do with the character itself, as opposed to the class; the character can use their abilities to affect the world in big ways, but that isn't necessarily something that a class is able to mechanically reflect.


Another note (if you haven't finished the books yet, DO NOT look at this):

Since Roland gets repeatedly reincarnated every time he reaches the tower, you might want to think about a capstone relating to that somehow.
Ooooh, interesting point. I really loved the way King ended the series, and that is definitely a good way to reflect it. Maybe make it like a living lich, with his Guns being the sort of phylactery? What do you think?


Anyway, in summary, great class, though I'd like some additions.
Also, please do an RF/Walter o'Dim/Marten Broadcloak PrC. I will shower you with internets.
Oh gods, I don't think Walter could have a PrC. His abilities aren't really mentioned in too much detail, and I always imagined him as a Telepath Psion.

[TravelLog]

I can try for specifics. I'll do a general breakdown.

Prereqs:
This is mostly whatever you want it to be, so no complaints here.

Skills:
I think Intimidate should absolutely be on there (few people stand up to Roland's scrutiny), as well as Survival (he just won't die...literally. And he braved the Desert countless times), and Listen (Roland is rarely talkative, preferring to listen).

Hit Die:
d10 is reasonably hardy, but not overwhelmingly so. Fine.

BAB and Saves:
I agree with Full BAB and the Reflex save. I think Fort might be elevated to Medium progression, or Will to full. Roland is both utterly ploddingly stubborn mentally, as well as possessed of inhuman endurance. Even balance-wise, it's not insane, just pushing the class to upper tier 3.

Proficiencies:
They should also be able to choose one exotic-ranged weapon of their choice (so that players can pick a weapon to call their own, and really nurture as Roland does his guns). In fact, I recommend adding a unique gun feature that acts sort of like a weapon of legacy in that it grows as the user does, though less complex. "Guns of the Patriarch" maybe? I also think light armor isn't out of the question. Even rogues get light armor.

Gunslinger's Oath:
While I like this in principal, I do have a number of reservations. First, Roland was never squeamish about committing murder for the overall greater good. In the first novel, he murders an entire town that attacks him under the influence of Walter/Randall Flagg. Moreover, he let's Jake "die" at the end of the same novel to reach Flagg, much as he sacrificed his hawk David to beat Cort. I would personally change this to a Trial of Will or something like the Gunslinger's did in the novels. It's flavor though so it's more up to you. If you keep it, expand/clarify what "innocent" means.

Path of the Word or Gun:
Okay, this is arguably the central class feature, but all I feel after I read it is "so what?" You can choose between either advancing casting or plain attacking. Lots of PrCs offer that and more. Why should I pick this one? Flavor is good, but Flavor+Mechanics is Poetry. I'll come back to this point in greater depth at the end of this post.

Steady Hands:
Nothing special. Mildly useful. Solid.

Fan the Hammer:
Roland calls this his "Finger Trick", but otherwise it's fine.

Trapfinding:
Standard fare. Moving on.

The Flow of Ka:
So...fate makes Roland faster? I understand giving an Insight bonus to speed, but it's enough for a class feature. Move that part to another feature and make this have something to do with "guiding bullets" or something. Perhaps Ka guides the Gunslinger to their desired objectives outside of combat, while in combat, it allows the Gunslinger to hit targets around corners to start, then scales to include things like phasing through barriers (magical or otherwise), etc. Gunslingers are supposed to be implacable and unstoppable. No obstacle should stand in the way of their Ka.

Sharpshooter's Eyes:
Interesting, but could be improved. Make it scale to grant low-light, dark-vision and maybe even being able to see through magical darkness. Also, perhaps give more uses of See Invisibility than once per day.

The Winds of Ka:
Good ability. Here is where the Insight bonus to land speed should also go. This is nice flavor-wise, as well as being extremely useful in a wide variety of situations.

Path of the White:
While understandable, this does not fit image-wise with the unstoppable, emotionless Gunslinger theme Roland usually has going. He has soft spots yes, but he isn't a healer. Provide an ACF that allows continued scaling of the Paladin's lay-on hands, then make a more interesting/fitting feature to fill in this slot.

Rapid Reload:
Nice. Maybe change the name though since Gunslinger's will also have a feat of the same name. Perhaps "Instant Reload".

Perfect Calm AND Rain of Lead:
Make these two features high-level abilities of the Path of The Gun subset, then make a new 9th level feature and use the capstone for the Reincarnation form, however you choose to do it.

Expanding the Paths:
It's hard to describe precisely what I mean, but I feel these should go beyond a single level's feature. If you're familiar with things like the Magic Marksman (and many other homebrews) that will give a choice of paths that the character selects once, then advances down that path, each one with it's own flavor and abilities, techniques, spells, what have you.

For the Path of the Gun, it can be straight up Gun-Techniques (like Rain of Lead), physical enhancements, combat options, high damage stuff...

For the Path of the Word, it can be a way to perhaps meld spellcasting and gun-firing or more Ka-related options. This is where you can be as creative and unique as you want. Go crazy!

[unosarta]

Skills:
I think Intimidate should absolutely be on there (few people stand up to Roland's scrutiny), as well as Survival (he just won't die...literally. And he braved the Desert countless times), and Listen (Roland is rarely talkative, preferring to listen).
Good points.


BAB and Saves:
I agree with Full BAB and the Reflex save. I think Fort might be elevated to Medium progression, or Will to full. Roland is both utterly ploddingly stubborn mentally, as well as possessed of inhuman endurance. Even balance-wise, it's not insane, just pushing the class to upper tier 3.
I am not sure on the balance of having two good saves, one medium save, d10 Hit Dice, and full Base Attack Bonus. That is very, very good. I would rather have it at one good, two medium saves, full Base Attack Bonus, and d8 Hit Dice, but I can live with d10. However, that extra save is kind of over the top. A bonus to will saves as a class feature is fine and dandy, however.


Proficiencies:
They should also be able to choose one exotic-ranged weapon of their choice (so that players can pick a weapon to call their own, and really nurture as Roland does his guns). In fact, I recommend adding a unique gun feature that acts sort of like a weapon of legacy in that it grows as the user does, though less complex. "Guns of the Patriarch" maybe? I also think light armor isn't out of the question. Even rogues get light armor.
Oooh, not a bad idea at all. I don't know about the unique gun, though. Seems kind of unnecessary, although that is just my opinion.


Gunslinger's Oath:
While I like this in principal, I do have a number of reservations. First, Roland was never squeamish about committing murder for the overall greater good. In the first novel, he murders an entire town that attacks him under the influence of Walter/Randall Flagg. Moreover, he let's Jake "die" at the end of the same novel to reach Flagg, much as he sacrificed his hawk David to beat Cort. I would personally change this to a Trial of Will or something like the Gunslinger's did in the novels. It's flavor though so it's more up to you. If you keep it, expand/clarify what "innocent" means.
Notice the drawback? You lose all Supernatural Abilities for 24 hours. I feel stupid about this now, but the class doesn't even have any supernatural abilities. So, there is literally no drawback for the oath. And Roland most certainly does those actions, but he always feels guilty about it afterward, (surprisingly guilty, give the amount of horrible things he has done for his quest). I was hoping to add some Supernatural abilities to make the effect more of a drawback.


Path of the Word or Gun:
Okay, this is arguably the central class feature, but all I feel after I read it is "so what?" You can choose between either advancing casting or plain attacking. Lots of PrCs offer that and more. Why should I pick this one? Flavor is good, but Flavor+Mechanics is Poetry. I'll come back to this point in greater depth at the end of this post.
Plain attacking? You get a taunt effect, which as far as I know, doesn't really exist in published Prestige Classes, and only really does so in the Knight class, one of the entry ways into this class. And I think you underestimate the power of spellcasting. In terms of why to choose this class? There aren't any other gun using divine casting classes. Literally.


The Flow of Ka:
So...fate makes Roland faster? I understand giving an Insight bonus to speed, but it's enough for a class feature. Move that part to another feature and make this have something to do with "guiding bullets" or something. Perhaps Ka guides the Gunslinger to their desired objectives outside of combat, while in combat, it allows the Gunslinger to hit targets around corners to start, then scales to include things like phasing through barriers (magical or otherwise), etc. Gunslingers are supposed to be implacable and unstoppable. No obstacle should stand in the way of their Ka.
There really isn't a way to translate Ka into D&D mechanics. Seriously. Even your suggestion doesn't do it, and honestly, there is nothing to suggest Roland can guide bullets in the story, which makes it more over the top rather than the mundanity which makes Roland and company so endearing as characters. Movement speed boosting was the only way I could think to have anything similar to Ka.

Maybe at higher levels the Gunslinger can use Locate Object, or something similar, once per day?


Sharpshooter's Eyes:
Interesting, but could be improved. Make it scale to grant low-light, dark-vision and maybe even being able to see through magical darkness. Also, perhaps give more uses of See Invisibility than once per day.
Okay.


Path of the White:
While understandable, this does not fit image-wise with the unstoppable, emotionless Gunslinger theme Roland usually has going. He has soft spots yes, but he isn't a healer. Provide an ACF that allows continued scaling of the Paladin's lay-on hands, then make a more interesting/fitting feature to fill in this slot.
He most certainly does heal his companions. However, the point is not that he is healing them; that he does not do. What he is doing is bolstering them. This is in part due to the weird flavor associated with Hit Points. He is reassuring an ally, granting a kind word or a touch which makes them feel better. Part of the whole concept of hit points are that they are partially simply toughness, and partially luck or the ability to dodge. This is why you don't literally take 5 or 6 blows to be killed; you simply dodge 4 or 5 times, and that final blow takes you out.


Rapid Reload:
Nice. Maybe change the name though since Gunslinger's will also have a feat of the same name. Perhaps "Instant Reload".
On it.


Perfect Calm AND Rain of Lead:
Make these two features high-level abilities of the Path of The Gun subset, then make a new 9th level feature and use the capstone for the Reincarnation form, however you choose to do it.
Okay, I guess.


Expanding the Paths:
It's hard to describe precisely what I mean, but I feel these should go beyond a single level's feature. If you're familiar with things like the Magic Marksman (and many other homebrews) that will give a choice of paths that the character selects once, then advances down that path, each one with it's own flavor and abilities, techniques, spells, what have you.
Dude. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10533916&postcount=3)

Anyway. I guess I see what you are saying.


For the Path of the Gun, it can be straight up Gun-Techniques (like Rain of Lead), physical enhancements, combat options, high damage stuff...
So, the current class features? That sounds exactly like the way they currently are. Well, not exactly but very close.


For the Path of the Word, it can be a way to perhaps meld spellcasting and gun-firing or more Ka-related options. This is where you can be as creative and unique as you want. Go crazy!
I am still confused on how you mean for Ka to be used and utilized.

[TravelLog]

Good points.


I am not sure on the balance of having two good saves, one medium save, d10 Hit Dice, and full Base Attack Bonus. That is very, very good. I would rather have it at one good, two medium saves, full Base Attack Bonus, and d8 Hit Dice, but I can live with d10. However, that extra save is kind of over the top. A bonus to will saves as a class feature is fine and dandy, however.

That sounds perfect.

Oooh, not a bad idea at all. I don't know about the unique gun, though. Seems kind of unnecessary, although that is just my opinion.
It was just a suggestion. I'm trying to just throw out as many ideas as I can to see if it can help you build the class.

Notice the drawback? You lose all Supernatural Abilities for 24 hours. I feel stupid about this now, but the class doesn't even have any supernatural abilities. So, there is literally no drawback for the oath. And Roland most certainly does those actions, but he always feels guilty about it afterward, (surprisingly guilty, give the amount of horrible things he has done for his quest). I was hoping to add some Supernatural abilities to make the effect more of a drawback.
Some Supernatural abilities would be great. And upon rereading, I do notice that haha.

Plain attacking? You get a taunt effect, which as far as I know, doesn't really exist in published Prestige Classes, and only really does so in the Knight class, one of the entry ways into this class. And I think you underestimate the power of spellcasting. In terms of why to choose this class? There aren't any other gun using divine casting classes. Literally.
Touche, at least-gunwise.

There really isn't a way to translate Ka into D&D mechanics. Seriously. Even your suggestion doesn't do it, and honestly, there is nothing to suggest Roland can guide bullets in the story, which makes it more over the top rather than the mundanity which makes Roland and company so endearing as characters. Movement speed boosting was the only way I could think to have anything similar to Ka.
This suggestion actually had nothing to do with books. It was more an idea for interesting tactical options not provided by other classes. Call it a fanciful imagining of Roland with a bit of magical enhancement thrown in.

Maybe at higher levels the Gunslinger can use Locate Object, or something similar, once per day?
Could work I guess. It's not particularly grabbing, but I'm drawing a blank on how to use Ka just like you are...I'll think and get back to you.

He most certainly does heal his companions. However, the point is not that he is healing them; that he does not do. What he is doing is bolstering them. This is in part due to the weird flavor associated with Hit Points. He is reassuring an ally, granting a kind word or a touch which makes them feel better. Part of the whole concept of hit points are that they are partially simply toughness, and partially luck or the ability to dodge. This is why you don't literally take 5 or 6 blows to be killed; you simply dodge 4 or 5 times, and that final blow takes you out.
Okay, this works I guess. As a higher level ability though, maybe add more effects or usage of the "White"?

Okay, I guess.
Remember, these are only suggestions. It's your class (which I already like a lot), so don't feel pressured to change anything on my account.

Dude. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10533916&postcount=3)
Well. Color me embarrassed. You clearly know what I'm talking about.

Anyway. I guess I see what you are saying.


So, the current class features? That sounds exactly like the way they currently are. Well, not exactly but very close.
Certainly fairly similar. Maybe just a greater variety of options is the thing I'm looking for, sort of the way Martial Disciplines each offer unique tactical benefits.


I am still confused on how you mean for Ka to be used and utilized.
I really just have a vague idea to be honest. More of a feeling than any distinctive thoughts on the subject.


Added responses in bold. Hope I've been helpful rather than bothersome.

On reading your changes (that was insanely fast by the way), I was wondering what "floating" meant on Weapon enhancements...
And can the Gunslinger also apply enhancements to bullets?

[unosarta]

Awesome. I can't really reply with the bold in the quotes reply, but no worries. I have added path abilities to Path of the Gun and Path of the Word, which now have some different abilities. I also added Guns of the Patriarch.

Floating is explained after the table.

I had some extra time, and I felt like adding 'em. :smallwink:

I am thinking no to the bullet enhancements, but I am not sure of the effect. I am just going to say no.

[Mr.Bookworm]

I like the class, but I think some things need to be changed or toned down. All of the following is critical. I left out the stuff I liked or didn't think needed change.


ENTRY REQUIREMENTS
Base Attack Bonus: +4
Skills: Diplomacy 9 ranks, Spot 4 ranks
Feats: Rapid Reload, Two Weapon Fighting
Proficiencies: Firearms (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187811)
Alignment: Any Good
Special: Must have the Smite special ability, or the ability to cast 3rd level divine spells, or the Fighting Challenge special ability
Special: Must be trained as a Gunslinger by another Gunslinger

A. There are three logical entries into this class, as stands. You can be a Paladin, a Knight, or a Cleric. Which doesn't make a lot of sense, to me, at any rate. Why not allow a Fighter, or a Ranger, or whatever to get in? The three that can get in don't particularly synergize incredibly well with the rest of the class. It seems rather arbitrary.

B. None of those classes can take advantage of the two qualifying feats, making it a complete and total feat tax. You also have to spend a proficiency on a Firearm (incidentally, that's a worded a bit unclearly, it should say something like Proficiency: Any firearm), meaning that you literally get no feats at all if you want to qualify for this class. You shouldn't suck for your first six levels just so you can get into this PrC.

The two feats aren't even useful feats. A Gunslinger who doesn't go for two-handing pistols isn't going to get any use out of Two-Weapon Fighting and you get a better version of Rapid Reload as a class feature.

C. None of those classes get Spot as a class skill either, meaning they need to spend 8 ranks on Spot. All three of those classes are already heavily skill-starved, and you have an additional 9 ranks to spend to get into this class. Again, you need to eat up all of your feats and 3/4 of your skill points (with Int 10) just to qualify.


Those Fort and Will saves

Er, that's not the progression.

You can get the good +2/3/3/4/4 etc., etc., or you can get the bad +0/1/1/1/2/2/2 stuff.


Weapon Proficiencies: The Gunslinger gains proficiency with all non-exotic ranged weapons and one exotic ranged weapon of his choice, but gains no proficiency with any armor or shields.

Why not just "all firearms"?


Second Step: The Path of the Gun Gunslinger gains a +4 bonus to Dexterity and Strength, as well as a +3 Competency bonus to Survival checks.
The Path of the Word Gunslinger gains a +4 bonus to Charisma and Wisdom, as well as a +3 bonus to all Diplomacy checks.
These are supernatural effects.

What. Why are you giving them large, untyped bonuses to ability scores? That doesn't make any sense, is kind of boring, and is overpowered.


Third Step: The Path of the Gun Gunslinger may make a Combat Maneuver as a ranged attack, as a full round action. A Combat Maneuver is defined as in Pathfinder, or as a Bull Rush, Disarm, Feint, Grapple, Sunder, or Trip attempt. He may not use this ability to Grapple. After using this ability, the Gunslinger must wait 5 rounds before using it again.

This is obviously a 3.5 class. Why is it suddenly getting Pathfinder stuff?

If that wasn't the intention, you need to clarify some things, like what substitutes for Strength.


The Path of the Word Gunslinger may cast a spell as part of a ranged attack, as a full action. The spell must have a range of touch, and cannot be a personal spell. If the Gunslinger uses this ability on his allies, it deals no damage. If used on opponents, it deals normal damage. After using this ability, the Gunslinger must wait 5 rounds before using it again.

This is alright. I would let you use touch AC for allies, though, since they presumably want you to hit them.


The Path of the Word Gunslinger may dominate the minds of others. Doing so is exhausting. As a full round action, once per day, the Gunslinger may force all creatures within 30 feet to make a Will save (DC 10 + Gunslinger levels + Charisma modifier) or become Dominated, as the spell, until the end of the encounter, under the Gunslinger's control. He must concentrate every round that they are dominated. If he takes any damage, he must make a Concentration check equal to the damage or lose concentration and lose control of the dominated creatures. After the encounter ends, the domination remains for up to an hour afterward. After using this ability, the Gunslinger becomes exhausted for the rest of the encounter, and one hour afterward.

This is the Mass version of a 9th level spell, with a better save DC. This trivially ends entire encounters. Way, way too good.


Steady Hands (Ex): Gunslingers are trained to keep their hands steady, even during the most trying of times, so as to hit straight. This is one of the first, and also most important lessons that a gunslinger learns. The Gunslinger may, once per round take 10 on a single ranged attack roll, and may also take 10 on Disable Device, and Sleight of Hand checks, even when under extreme duress such as during combat.

This needs to be bumped up 6 or so levels. The ability to take 10 on a combat check is incredibly good. Maybe keep the Disable Device/Sleight of Hand ability at level 1, and put the combat option at level 7 or 8.


Fan the Hammer (Ex):

The ability to get an extra attack is quite good, and this has no penalties. Maybe add a -1 to every attack in the routine when you use this?


Guns of the Patriarch (Su):

This is the Kensai's ability (the Kensai's primary ability). But far better, because you don't have to pay anything for it.

A +10 weapon is 200,000 gold. That's 77% of your WBL at level 16 when you get this, and it's not even your primary class feature. This needs to be toned way down.

Given that Roland never had flame shooting superguns, I would instead make it a simple enhancement bonus, no special abilities. Something like a +1 enhancement at level 1 or 2, with it increasing by 1 every other level.


The Gunslinger may choose to have their gun become two ranged weapons instead. These ranged weapons must each be one handed guns. They each gain an enhancement bonus based on the above table.

So you get two guns for absolutely no cost at the exact same bonus? Where do I sign up? At least make them split the bonus between the guns.


The Flow of Ka (Ex, Sp): Ka, a word that translates to something like “fate”, is the force that guides all Gunslingers, and all of existance. The Gunslinger knows the flow of Ka, and can follow its path with extreme accuracy. Starting at third level, the Gunslinger gains a +20 Insight bonus to base land speed. In addition, he always knows the location of his Guns of the Patriarch, and he may use the Locate Object spell as a spell like ability, once per hour.

This should be "Locate Object spell, targeting the gun".

Also unsure exactly why they're getting a +20 speed boost.


Twisting Form (Ex): ...

...Any attack that misses him (at any time) grants him a +1 Insight bonus to ranged attack rolls made against the target that attacked him, lasting 3 rounds. This bonus is cumulative, but does not refresh the duration.

Wait, is this always on, or just when he's using the previous benefits of the ability? If it's the former, that's too good. If it's the latter, that's okay.


The Winds of Ka (Ex):

I'm not remembering where Roland could move like an Olympic sprinter. I don't believe this ability is particularly overpowered (although it is pretty good), but I'm curious why you put all of the movement stuff in this class.


Path of the White (Su):

As in-combat healing, this isn't going to see any use, but okay.


Instant Reload (Ex):

In addition, he may make an additional attack at his highest attack bonus -5 when he makes a ranged full attack. This extra attack does not stack with other effects that grant extra attacks, unless they are given by Gunslinger class abilities.

At 16th level (with full BAB), you're getting an attack routine of +16/+16/+11/+11/+6/+1 on a full attack.

I'm not quite sure if that's overly good or not. Let me think on it.



Perfect Calm (Ex):

The ability to automatically crit is incredibly good. Probably too good.


Gunslingers are not an especially strong class

That's a pretty blatant lie. I would give up two caster levels on a Zen Archer build to go Cleric 10/Gunslinger 10.

[unosarta]

I like the class, but I think some things need to be changed or toned down. All of the following is critical. I left out the stuff I liked or didn't think needed change.
Which is, looking at your comments, pretty much nothing. Not that I have a problem with that at all, I am sure there are a lot of problems, but you know.


A. There are three logical entries into this class, as stands. You can be a Paladin, a Knight, or a Cleric. Which doesn't make a lot of sense, to me, at any rate. Why not allow a Fighter, or a Ranger, or whatever to get in? The three that can get in don't particularly synergize incredibly well with the rest of the class. It seems rather arbitrary.
Have you looked at the fluff section? This class was made for a campaign setting (it must be noted that it is not my campaign setting). The author of that campaign setting gave me those classes. I was working with what I was given. However, I am not sure I can see exactly how you would want me to make the classes synergize with the features and still have this class not be like, you know, really freaking long.


B. None of those classes can take advantage of the two qualifying feats, making it a complete and total feat tax. You also have to spend a proficiency on a Firearm (incidentally, that's a worded a bit unclearly, it should say something like Proficiency: Any firearm), meaning that you literally get no feats at all if you want to qualify for this class. You shouldn't suck for your first six levels just so you can get into this PrC.
What exactly do you mean? There is nothing stating that a Knight cannot use firearms, if they have proficiency, and Paladins have a feat (although I honestly don't agree that that feat should be necessary) that allows them to make ranged smite attacks. What exactly makes you think the classes will suck for 6 levels before entering this class? Because their abilities do not precisely synergize with the weapon they use? And what about Paladins who want to use guns anyway? What answer do you have for them? Just suck it up and use a melee weapon?


The two feats aren't even useful feats. A Gunslinger who doesn't go for two-handing pistols isn't going to get any use out of Two-Weapon Fighting and you get a better version of Rapid Reload as a class feature.
I can see this argument. What feats do you think could easily and realistically replace them?


C. None of those classes get Spot as a class skill either, meaning they need to spend 8 ranks on Spot. All three of those classes are already heavily skill-starved, and you have an additional 9 ranks to spend to get into this class. Again, you need to eat up all of your feats and 3/4 of your skill points (with Int 10) just to qualify.
So, what is your solution? Honestly, that is more of a problem with the lack of skills of those classes in general, in my opinion, rather than a fault in the class prerequisites. If any Paladin wants to enter a class in which they have more than one skill as a requirement, they are going to have to spend most of their skill points. That is just a fault of the fact that Paladins do not have any skill points.


Why not just "all firearms"?
Because, if you look at the Firearm rules that I linked in the post, the exotic weapons are quite powerful, and worth the feat. In addition, the creator of those firearm rules told me that keeping the exotic worth a feat would be a good idea, which I agree with.


What. Why are you giving them large, untyped bonuses to ability scores? That doesn't make any sense, is kind of boring, and is overpowered.
Overpowered? Seriously? A +4 ability score bonus is overpowered? I can change the type, but seriously, that is nothing. And, I'll be honest, it fits with the class.


This is obviously a 3.5 class. Why is it suddenly getting Pathfinder stuff?

If that wasn't the intention, you need to clarify some things, like what substitutes for Strength.
That is not pathfinder stuff, it is the pathfinder definition for what would otherwise be a long a stupid list of combat abilities. Seriously, I mention that it is how it is defined in pathfinder, and then go ahead and define it. There is no reason to be saying that it is "Pathfinder stuff" when it is explicitly not. Also, where is your definition of "obviously a 3.5 class" coming from, because I don't know about you, but I haven't defined it as any system base at all, besides d20 with 3.5 feats, which Pathfinder is notorious for using. However, that is not the point, and I digress.


This is alright. I would let you use touch AC for allies, though, since they presumably want you to hit them.
Good idea.


This is the Mass version of a 9th level spell, with a better save DC. This trivially ends entire encounters. Way, way too good.
I thought I added a save DC. I will add one back in.
If you dislike it, what would you suggest to replace it?


This needs to be bumped up 6 or so levels. The ability to take 10 on a combat check is incredibly good. Maybe keep the Disable Device/Sleight of Hand ability at level 1, and put the combat option at level 7 or 8.
A combat check once per round (also, the heck is a combat check? The attack roll?)? Given how many times the Gunslinger will be attacking per round, that is paltry. In addition, taking 10 isn't even that powerful an ability, when you think about it.


The ability to get an extra attack is quite good, and this has no penalties. Maybe add a -1 to every attack in the routine when you use this?
Okay.


This is the Kensai's ability (the Kensai's primary ability). But far better, because you don't have to pay anything for it.

A +10 weapon is 200,000 gold. That's 77% of your WBL at level 16 when you get this, and it's not even your primary class feature. This needs to be toned way down.

Given that Roland never had flame shooting superguns, I would instead make it a simple enhancement bonus, no special abilities. Something like a +1 enhancement at level 1 or 2, with it increasing by 1 every other level.
The Kensai doesn't have to pay, I am fairly sure (AFB so I am not positive). So, it's the same as the Kensai ability, but not the same because it only allows ranged weapons, whereas the Kensai can use any weapon they have. Okay, I can tone it down.


This should be "Locate Object spell, targeting the gun".

Also unsure exactly why they're getting a +20 speed boost.
No, it's supposed to be Locate Object in general. There isn't really a way to reflect Ka in D&D terms, but King does describe it as leading their actions and showing them the way, which is why I added Locate Object. It's not a perfect analogy, but it's the best you can really do in D&D.
The +20 foot speed boost was the original ability, before I added the guns and such. I can remove it.


Wait, is this always on, or just when he's using the previous benefits of the ability? If it's the former, that's too good. If it's the latter, that's okay.
It was always on (that is why it says at any time), but I could include a hard cap on the bonus, if you think that is necessary.


I'm not remembering where Roland could move like an Olympic sprinter. I don't believe this ability is particularly overpowered (although it is pretty good), but I'm curious why you put all of the movement stuff in this class.
Who says he is moving like an olympic sprinter? Rather, he is moving with incredible speed, but that is hardly like an olympic sprinter. Well, I'll be honest, if you only had the ability to full attack, there would be no movement happening at all, if there were to be optimum damage output. I wanted to keep there being some movement, since Roland does run and shoot several times.


As in-combat healing, this isn't going to see any use, but okay.
What else are you using your swift actions for? Besides the above ability, obviously.


The ability to automatically crit is incredibly good. Probably too good.
Charisma mod times per day? At 15th level? Yeah, no. I mean, I can kind of see what you are saying, but the attack still has to hit the opponent, and they still have to confirm the critical hit. Maybe I should make it only auto-confirm the crit?


That's a pretty blatant lie. I would give up two caster levels on a Zen Archer build to go Cleric 10/Gunslinger 10.
Reducing the caster level progression isn't a bad idea. In fact, it's probably necessary, now that I think of it.

[TravelLog]

Combat Expertise or Combat Reflexes might be worthwhile replacements for one/both of the entry req. feats.

[unosarta]

Combat Expertise or Combat Reflexes might be worthwhile replacements for one/both of the entry req. feats.

I like Combat Reflexes more.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Which is, looking at your comments, pretty much nothing. Not that I have a problem with that at all, I am sure there are a lot of problems, but you know.

I wouldn't have bothered to look it over if I didn't like it.


Have you looked at the fluff section? This class was made for a campaign setting (it must be noted that it is not my campaign setting). The author of that campaign setting gave me those classes. I was working with what I was given. However, I am not sure I can see exactly how you would want me to make the classes synergize with the features and still have this class not be like, you know, really freaking long.

Er. No, I didn't (I have a tendency to skip straight to crunch when critiquing).

Still, that's not a very good argument. You already have Cleric progression in here. Add in progression for some Paladin (Smite Evil) and Knight (Fighting Challenge/Test of Mettle) stuff. Give Paladin's the Ranged Smite Evil as a bonus feat. There are plenty of touches you can add that wouldn't make it incredibly long.


What exactly do you mean? There is nothing stating that a Knight cannot use firearms, if they have proficiency, and Paladins have a feat (although I honestly don't agree that that feat should be necessary) that allows them to make ranged smite attacks.

The entire Knight class is built around tanking and has absolutely no support for that style, which makes it incredibly hard to make an effective ranged Knight. It's possible, but that doesn't mean it'll be fun or effective.

I could make a decent ranged Paladin with some optimization, but that requires feats.


What exactly makes you think the classes will suck for 6 levels before entering this class? Because their abilities do not precisely synergize with the weapon they use? And what about Paladins who want to use guns anyway? What answer do you have for them? Just suck it up and use a melee weapon?

Because you are literally losing every single feat you have in the first 6 levels, on two classes that aren't great to begin with. Feats are the lifeblood of a melee character. The feats you do get aren't that good. Two-weapon fighting is also pretty horrible until you move up the feat tree a bit and reduce the penalties some more. Rapid reload is bleh.


I can see this argument. What feats do you think could easily and realistically replace them?

I wouldn't replace them with anything, honestly. You already need to spend a feat to get proficiency with a firearm; adding other feats on top of that is incredibly severe.


So, what is your solution? Honestly, that is more of a problem with the lack of skills of those classes in general, in my opinion, rather than a fault in the class prerequisites. If any Paladin wants to enter a class in which they have more than one skill as a requirement, they are going to have to spend most of their skill points. That is just a fault of the fact that Paladins do not have any skill points.

Yes, so you adjust the skill prerequisites to match. 4 ranks in a cross-class skill that none of the logical entries get is pretty bad. 9 ranks in Diplomacy is probably enough, honestly. Any of these classes, with Int 10, gets 18 skill ranks over the course of those 6 levels. 9 Diplomacy ranks gives them enough skill points to invest in other things.


Because, if you look at the Firearm rules that I linked in the post, the exotic weapons are quite powerful, and worth the feat. In addition, the creator of those firearm rules told me that keeping the exotic worth a feat would be a good idea, which I agree with.

They're okay, but they're nonscaling and require you to eat actions to reload, which are huge problems (same problems a crossbow-focused character faces). An increase of 1d8 to 1d12 or even 2d12 becomes pretty minor as you move up in levels. I can see where you're coming from, but I'm not thinking it would break anything.


Overpowered? Seriously? A +4 ability score bonus is overpowered? I can change the type, but seriously, that is nothing. And, I'll be honest, it fits with the class.

Yes, overpowered. This breaks WBL by stacking with all other modifiers. Let's say a 9th level character spends 8000 gp on two +2 items (pretty reasonable). This turns those into a +6, which is the entirety of his WBL for one +6 item at 9th level. Attribute boosts are very, very good, because they apply a lot of benefits to pretty much everything across the board.

And how does it fit into the class? Should a Fighter get a Strength bonus? The Cleric a Wis bonus? Should the Monk get a crapload of bonuses?


That is not pathfinder stuff, it is the pathfinder definition for what would otherwise be a long a stupid list of combat abilities. Seriously, I mention that it is how it is defined in pathfinder, and then go ahead and define it. There is no reason to be saying that it is "Pathfinder stuff" when it is explicitly not. Also, where is your definition of "obviously a 3.5 class" coming from, because I don't know about you, but I haven't defined it as any system base at all, besides d20 with 3.5 feats, which Pathfinder is notorious for using. However, that is not the point, and I digress.

You're using 3.5 skills, which is the first thing I look at if I'm unsure of which system something is made for. You then go on to list all of the stuff anyway, so the use of the words "combat maneuver" threw me for a loop. I wasn't calling it "Pathfinder" in a derogatory manner, it just confused me.


If you dislike it, what would you suggest to replace it?

Hm. Maybe allow them to cast a touch spell on a gun, giving the benefits of the spell to every cartridge in the gun?


A combat check once per round (also, the heck is a combat check? The attack roll?)? Given how many times the Gunslinger will be attacking per round, that is paltry. In addition, taking 10 isn't even that powerful an ability, when you think about it.

Er. Yeah, mistyped that.

I disagree, though. Taking 10 on an attack roll (even only one a round) allows you to hit consistently, which is very important in combats that last five rounds, like most D&D ones. At the absolute least, it should be balanced against the other ability that allows you to take 10 (or 11, in that case) on an attack roll.


The Kensai doesn't have to pay, I am fairly sure (AFB so I am not positive). So, it's the same as the Kensai ability, but not the same because it only allows ranged weapons, whereas the Kensai can use any weapon they have. Okay, I can tone it down.

Have the book right in front of me. Kensai have to pay a scaling XP cost with every increase.


No, it's supposed to be Locate Object in general. There isn't really a way to reflect Ka in D&D terms, but King does describe it as leading their actions and showing them the way, which is why I added Locate Object. It's not a perfect analogy, but it's the best you can really do in D&D.

Hm. Fair enough.


The +20 foot speed boost was the original ability, before I added the guns and such. I can remove it.

Doesn't bug me spectacularly, I was just wondering how it fit into the inspiration of the class.


It was always on (that is why it says at any time), but I could include a hard cap on the bonus, if you think that is necessary.

It's included as part of the ability, so I was uncertain. Yes, I would put a hard cap, maybe (class level), on it. Classes only get more attacks (and thus more chances to miss) as you go up in level.


Who says he is moving like an olympic sprinter? Rather, he is moving with incredible speed, but that is hardly like an olympic sprinter. Well, I'll be honest, if you only had the ability to full attack, there would be no movement happening at all, if there were to be optimum damage output. I wanted to keep there being some movement, since Roland does run and shoot several times.

Previous speed increase meant you could move 225 ft. in 6 seconds. Works out to 11.43 m/s. Means you could run the 100m in 8.75 seconds, breaking the world record by almost an entire second. Without even taking the Run feat or any other boosts.

Still, it does make sense. Alright then.


What else are you using your swift actions for? Besides the above ability, obviously.

True.


Charisma mod times per day? At 15th level? Yeah, no. I mean, I can kind of see what you are saying, but the attack still has to hit the opponent, and they still have to confirm the critical hit. Maybe I should make it only auto-confirm the crit?

Oh, it doesn't autoconfirm? The language made me think it did. I thought it was an automatic critical and then autoconfirm. That's fine as is, then.


Reducing the caster level progression isn't a bad idea. In fact, it's probably necessary, now that I think of it.

Hm. Maybe 6/10?

[TravelLog]

I don't think it's entirely necessary to lower casting to 6/10. Ruby Knight Vindicator has 8/10 casting, not to mention easy maneuver recovery by giving up turn attempts (which are not that wonderful to begin with). Jade Phoenix Mages also have 8/10 (with Arcane obviously) AND 1/encounter quickening of any 5th or below spell on a successfu melee attack.

[unosarta]

I wouldn't have bothered to look it over if I didn't like it.
Well, you might feel loyalty towards the character and think I am messing it up entirely. *shrug*


Er. No, I didn't (I have a tendency to skip straight to crunch when critiquing).

Still, that's not a very good argument. You already have Cleric progression in here. Add in progression for some Paladin (Smite Evil) and Knight (Fighting Challenge/Test of Mettle) stuff. Give Paladin's the Ranged Smite Evil as a bonus feat. There are plenty of touches you can add that wouldn't make it incredibly long.
Understandable, I do that as well.

Adding in some progression for Paladin and Knight certainly isn't a bad idea.


The entire Knight class is built around tanking and has absolutely no support for that style, which makes it incredibly hard to make an effective ranged Knight. It's possible, but that doesn't mean it'll be fun or effective.

I could make a decent ranged Paladin with some optimization, but that requires feats.
Hm. I could probably make a feat for Ranged Knights, and add it in as an optional prereq.

Okay.


Because you are literally losing every single feat you have in the first 6 levels, on two classes that aren't great to begin with. Feats are the lifeblood of a melee character. The feats you do get aren't that good. Two-weapon fighting is also pretty horrible until you move up the feat tree a bit and reduce the penalties some more. Rapid reload is bleh.
I already replaced them with Combat Reflexes and Point Blank Shot, if that offsets anything (probably doesn't).


I wouldn't replace them with anything, honestly. You already need to spend a feat to get proficiency with a firearm; adding other feats on top of that is incredibly severe.
Okay. I can see that.


Yes, so you adjust the skill prerequisites to match. 4 ranks in a cross-class skill that none of the logical entries get is pretty bad. 9 ranks in Diplomacy is probably enough, honestly. Any of these classes, with Int 10, gets 18 skill ranks over the course of those 6 levels. 9 Diplomacy ranks gives them enough skill points to invest in other things.
Fine.


They're okay, but they're nonscaling and require you to eat actions to reload, which are huge problems (same problems a crossbow-focused character faces). An increase of 1d8 to 1d12 or even 2d12 becomes pretty minor as you move up in levels. I can see where you're coming from, but I'm not thinking it would break anything.
Still, it is the creator's wish, and I am not going to go against him. I also see where your argument, but I can't really do anything.


Yes, overpowered. This breaks WBL by stacking with all other modifiers. Let's say a 9th level character spends 8000 gp on two +2 items (pretty reasonable). This turns those into a +6, which is the entirety of his WBL for one +6 item at 9th level. Attribute boosts are very, very good, because they apply a lot of benefits to pretty much everything across the board.

And how does it fit into the class? Should a Fighter get a Strength bonus? The Cleric a Wis bonus? Should the Monk get a crapload of bonuses?
So, if I made it enhancement, it would change that, yes?

Because Roland is just stronger and faster. Because the Priest is just wiser and has more personality. Because they are just better.


You're using 3.5 skills, which is the first thing I look at if I'm unsure of which system something is made for. You then go on to list all of the stuff anyway, so the use of the words "combat maneuver" threw me for a loop. I wasn't calling it "Pathfinder" in a derogatory manner, it just confused me.
Well, it is easier to say than writing all of those things, and it helps people who already have experience with Pathfinder. *shrug*


Hm. Maybe allow them to cast a touch spell on a gun, giving the benefits of the spell to every cartridge in the gun?
Maaaybe? Isn't that what Third Step does, but with only one spell? I could do it, but I would probably have to restrict the spell level. Also, Clerics really don't get any good Touch spells.


Er. Yeah, mistyped that.

I disagree, though. Taking 10 on an attack roll (even only one a round) allows you to hit consistently, which is very important in combats that last five rounds, like most D&D ones. At the absolute least, it should be balanced against the other ability that allows you to take 10 (or 11, in that case) on an attack roll.
The only other effect that is similar is a Crusader Stance, which does the exact same thing, only slightly better.


Have the book right in front of me. Kensai have to pay a scaling XP cost with every increase.
Hrm, didn't know that.


Doesn't bug me spectacularly, I was just wondering how it fit into the inspiration of the class.
Oh. I will probably still remove it, since the ability is awkward with that wording as well as the other effects.


It's included as part of the ability, so I was uncertain. Yes, I would put a hard cap, maybe (class level), on it. Classes only get more attacks (and thus more chances to miss) as you go up in level.
I was thinking a hard cap at +5. +level is still a lot.


Previous speed increase meant you could move 225 ft. in 6 seconds. Works out to 11.43 m/s. Means you could run the 100m in 8.75 seconds, breaking the world record by almost an entire second. Without even taking the Run feat or any other boosts.

Still, it does make sense. Alright then.
I don't think you can do swift actions at the same time as full round actions, although I am not sure about that. The Run feat out does that at the same time, but slightly better. *shrug* I could add that you can't use it at the same turn that you move.


Oh, it doesn't autoconfirm? The language made me think it did. I thought it was an automatic critical and then autoconfirm. That's fine as is, then.
I didn't intend it to autoconfirm. The wording isn't necessarily nebulous, so I am uncertain on that, but I will add that it doesn't autoconfirm.


Hm. Maybe 6/10?
Seems fine by me.


I don't think it's entirely necessary to lower casting to 6/10. Ruby Knight Vindicator has 8/10 casting, not to mention easy maneuver recovery by giving up turn attempts (which are not that wonderful to begin with). Jade Phoenix Mages also have 8/10 (with Arcane obviously) AND 1/encounter quickening of any 5th or below spell on a successfu melee attack.
Well, let's be honest, Ruby Knight Vindicator is hardly the best balance point.