Sneak Attack Undead

[Bobmufin52]

I'm going to start a lv.6 game soon and I was thinking of playing a rogue, bur then learned that it's going to have a lot of undead.
So my question to you playgrounders is that if there are any feats or weapon enhancements a lv. 6 player could get to be able to sneak attack undead.

Thanks in advance!

[Flickerdart]

Penetrating Strike (Rogue ACF, Dungeonscape, replaces Trap Sense) allows you to deal half of your SA damage to immune targets so long as they re flanked.

[Gavinfoxx]

The best way to do this without spending a bunch of gear is in the book Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, with a particular alternate class feature available at level 3. That version is better than the Dungeonscape version due to better wording. There are several other ways that aren't ACF based, too.

[Ravens_cry]

Get a custom continuous item of Grave Strike. Or buy a wand and UMD it. Or dip in Cleric, and use wands and scrolls.

[tyckspoon]

For 6th level, a wand of Gravestrike (1st level spell, swift activation, can Sneak Attack undead for 1 round. Spell Compendium.) inside a Wand Chamber (Dungeonscape) in your primary weapon is probably the most cost efficient; that should get you through until you can either afford one of the more permanent options or get through the undead phase of the campaign. Gear-wise, when you have more money to play with you can also get a Greater Truedeath Crystal (Magic Item Compendium, requires a +3 weapon to host it) or invest in a Ghost Touch + Ghost Strike (also MIC.) weapon if the campaign turns out undead-heavy enough to justify dedicating a weapon to them.

You can also get ACFs to give you partial Sneak Attack; Complete Champion has one that only applies to Undead, but it triggers normally as Sneak Attack. Dungeonscape and Expedition to Castle Ravenloft have basically the same thing, which gives you half-dice against any sneak-attack immune creature, but it only works when you flank. All three renditions of it trade trap-sense.

[Flickerdart]

The best way to do this without spending a bunch of gear is in the book Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, with a particular alternate class feature available at level 3. That version is better than the Dungeonscape version due to better wording. There are several other ways that aren't ACF based, too.
The ACFs do the same thing, and have almost exactly the same wording - how is the Ravenloft one better?

You could also buy some wands of Gravestrike (SpC) or a Greater Truedeath crystal (MIC) - but the latter costs a hefty 10,000 GP and can only be used with a +3 weapon or better.

[qwert-chan]

there is also a good Skullclan Hunter PrC in the Miniatures Handbook - it grants you a lot of permanent anti-undead features, including an ability to sneak attack them, immunity to fear, disease, paralysis, ability damage/drain, and a lot of other useful stuff.

[Gavinfoxx]

I think the Ravenloft one specifies some more things to due with dice, so it doesn't cause arguments with whether or not your Craven feat applies?? I'd have to double check. I do remember it being clearer with regards to how it interacts with some other things...

[dextercorvia]

The one in EtCR specifies that the damage is sneak attack damage. The one from Dungeonscape says damage equal to half your sneak attack or somesuch. That causes possible difficulty with Craven.

[Starbuck_II]

The one in EtCR specifies that the damage is sneak attack damage. The one from Dungeonscape says damage equal to half your sneak attack or somesuch. That causes possible difficulty with Craven.

But you can't be immune to fear with craven, who doesn't enjoy a feast (heroes feast)?

[Curmudgeon]

Penetrating Strike (Rogue ACF, Dungeonscape, replaces Trap Sense) allows you to deal half of your SA damage to immune targets so long as they re flanked.
The better ACF (even better than the Lightning Rogue Penetrating Strike version in Expedition to Castle Ravenloft) when you know you're going to be facing undead is Death's Ruin (Complete Champion, page 51): you can sneak attack undead with ½ the normal dice ─ and unlike Penetrating Strike, you don't need to flank them. So ranged sneak attack is a useful (and safer) option against wights, spectres, vampires, and other undead with Energy Drain.

Because you'll only have ½ the normal sneak attack dice, you'll really want the Craven feat (since that part of your sneak attack is not reduced); the combination gives you about 68% of normal sneak attack damage vs. undead. To offset Craven's -2 vs. fear, the Uncanny Bravery ACF (Dragon Magic, page 14) trades improved uncanny dodge (at Rogue 8) for immunity to to dragon frightful presence, and +4 vs. other fear effects.

[Killer Angel]

Alternatively, you can convince your DM to play PF...

[Zherog]

As another alternative, I believe there's a crystal in Magic Item Compendium, that allows sneak attack vs a particular type that's normally immune. There's different crystals for undead, constructs, etc. If I can get to my book later on, and nobody else confirms, I'll look it up.

[Dee_Twenty]

Zherog is correct, a Greater True Death augmentation crystal will set you back 10,000 gold, but it adds 1d6 to all attacks against undead, acts as a ghost touch weapon, and allows your sneak attack to function at full strength, you might also want to pick up a Greater Demolition crystal as well, bonus 1d6 versus constructs, is treated as adamantine for the purposes of overcoming their damage reduction, and allows your full sneak attack, all for only 6,000 gold.

[hamishspence]

Problem is, greater augment crystals can't be added to weapons of less than +3, so aren't usable at low level, unless the DM is very generous with magic weapons.

[Dee_Twenty]

True enough, still it's an option to keep in mind for later.

[koscum]

Deathstrike Bracers (MIC, p. 93) might be worth it as well. 3/day you can crit and SA constructs, elementals, oozes, plants and undead for 1 round. 5000gp, swift (mental) activation.

Greater Truedeath Crystal is № 1 Rogue's best friend vs. undead, but usually obtainable after lvl10.

[TurkeyBlizzard]

GHOST STRIKE
[SYNERGY]Price: +1 bonus
Property: Melee weapon
Caster Level: 11th
Aura: Moderate; (DC 20) conjuration
Activation: —
Synergy Prerequisite: Ghost touch
Fine tendrils of white smoke slowly rise from
this weapon’s surface.
A ghost strike weapon functions as a
ghost touch weapon (DMG 224). In addition,
sneak attacks and critical hits made
with a ghost strike weapon against an
undead creature affect it as if it were a
living creature.
Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and
Armor, undeath to death.

Anyone post this yet?

[TheJake]

Get a custom continuous item of Grave Strike. Or buy a wand and UMD it. Or dip in Cleric, and use wands and scrolls.

Seconded.

- J.

[Curmudgeon]

Anyone post this yet?
That's another minimum +3 cost weapon. All magic weapons must be +1 before other enhancements, and [Synergy] weapons must have all synergy prerequisites as well.

[Albonor]

Sun blade? Not optimal but it becomes 2d10+8 against undeads and you can crit vamps with it...and dual wield them.

Expensive/Dm fiat related? Sure.

I also second the Skullclan hunter, it's want you want here.

[Gavinfoxx]

Isn't there an alternative Sun Blade in EtCR?

[Person_Man]

Honestly, if you know for a fact that there's going to be a lot of undead, then it seems counter productive to play a Rogue and spend resources on being able to attack them. In particular, it seems like a good idea to get access to Rebuke Undead.

[prufock]

In the "same but different" category, have you thought about a Scout/Ranger with the Swift Hunter feat? The feat lets your Scout and Ranger levels stack for your skirmish and favoured enemies, PLUS you can always apply skirmish damage to your favoured enemies, even if normally immune to precision damage. Take undead as one of your favoured enemies, and you're in business. Choose to put your second +2 into undead as well and you're doing a flat +4 on top of your skirmish and regular weapon damage, which is better than an extra d6 on average.

So you still get a good skill list and lots of skill points, better HD, and better BAB. Depending on which side you like to level up, you get animal companion, combat style, and eventually spells from ranger or some cool benefits from scout, like initiative bonuses.

Of course, there are drawbacks to this as well. No full attacking for skirmish, must move 10', slower +d6 progression. At the same time, no need for flanking.

BONUS IDEA: Get pounce somehow, spell/feat/1 level of barbarian (spirit lion totem) and you can full attack with skirmish on a charge. Get Improved Skirmish feat and you can add extra damage. Get TWF and go to town.

Then again, none of this may fit the flavour you were going for.

[TurkeyBlizzard]

That's another minimum +3 cost weapon. All magic weapons must be +1 before other enhancements, and [Synergy] weapons must have all synergy prerequisites as well.

How is that a +3? It requires ghost touch, but thats only an additional +1.

[tyckspoon]

+1 base enhancement so you can put special properties on it at all, +1 Ghost Touch, +1 Ghost Strike = +3 equivalent weapon. It's nice for higher levels when you can spare money for a special-purpose weapon, but you'd usually be better off attaching a Greater Truedeath crystal to a more general-use weapon.

[subject42]

How is that a +3? It requires ghost touch, but thats only an additional +1.

+1 for the base enhancement that allows you to add other enhancements
+1 for ghost touch
+1 for ghost strike

That's a total of +3

[Psyren]

Alternatively, you can convince your DM to play PF...

This is my recommendation. The PF Rogue (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue) got some very neat goodies and is still balanced (T3?) - ask your DM to let you use that.

[TurkeyBlizzard]

+1 base enhancement so you can put special properties on it at all, +1 Ghost Touch, +1 Ghost Strike = +3 equivalent weapon. It's nice for higher levels when you can spare money for a special-purpose weapon, but you'd usually be better off attaching a Greater Truedeath crystal to a more general-use weapon.

Base enhancement bonus? Are you refering to it being masterwork? That only costs like 300gp?

[Ravens_cry]

No, they are referring to the fact (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm) that,
A weapon with a special ability must have at least a +1 enhancement bonus.

[Dekion]

there is also a good Skullclan Hunter PrC in the Miniatures Handbook - it grants you a lot of permanent anti-undead features, including an ability to sneak attack them, immunity to fear, disease, paralysis, ability damage/drain, and a lot of other useful stuff.

This is my personal favorite, if your DM allows. At level 6, you could have 1 level in the PrC, and you get the sneak attack benefit at level 2. Until then, you have turn undead and a few spells to get you by as anti-undead abilities. Plus, the cost is minimal. You could also grab the "death's ruin" variant ability too, to get half the benfit until that second level.

[TurkeyBlizzard]

No, they are referring to the fact (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm) that,

I see that:


"A character can't create, for example a keen rapier. A keen rapier needs an enhancement bonus of at least a +1."

So, keen being a +1 bonus, are you saying that its total a +2 weapon, and thus costs 8,000gp? Or is it simply a +1 keen rapier, which is as I have understood it?

[tyckspoon]

So, keen being a +1 bonus, are you saying that its total a +2 weapon, and thus costs 8,000gp?

Yes.
10characters.

[Ravens_cry]

So, keen being a +1 bonus, are you saying that its total a +2 weapon, and thus costs 8,000gp? Or is it simply a +1 keen rapier, which is as I have understood it?
The former, it needs the +1 before any additional magic effects can be added.
Yarr, ninjas, they be everywhere.

[Psyren]

So, keen being a +1 bonus, are you saying that its total a +2 weapon, and thus costs 8,000gp? Or is it simply a +1 keen rapier, which is as I have understood it?

A +1 keen rapier IS a +2 weapon. You've simply traded 1 point of the enhancement bonus for a +1 equivalent-ability.

Any magic items with abilities must have at least +1 dedicated to the enhancement bonus. i.e. it's impossible to simply have a keen rapier, you can only have at least a +1 keen rapier.

[Curmudgeon]

A +1 keen rapier IS a +2 weapon.
To alleviate confusion on this topic, that's only a +1 weapon with a +2 cost. If you wanted to have a Ghost Strike weapon (to sneak attack undead) with a Greater Demolition crystal (to sneak attack constructs) that would be a +3 Ghost Strike weapon:

+3 numerical enhancement (minimum for greater weapon augment crystals)
+1 enhancement cost for Ghost Touch
+1 enhancement cost for Ghost Strike
for a +5 enhancement cost.

[Togath]

Wouldn't the base weapon only cost 22000gp?
18000gp for +3
2000gp for ghost touch
2000gp for ghost strike

or am I misunderstanding how enhancements work

[Flickerdart]

Wouldn't the base weapon only cost 22000gp?
18000gp for +3
2000gp for ghost touch
2000gp for ghost strike

or am I misunderstanding how enhancements work
They're +1 enchantments, so they add +1 to the weapon's modifier for costs.

There are flat cost enchantments, but these are labelled as such.

[Togath]

Ah, hadn't known that they stacked, at least it came up before an uncoming campiagn a freind of mine is planning on running, which I may end up playing in. I would've felt a bit silly, coming from Dming a campaign to playing in one, and not knowing all of the rules that a player uses.

[Grendus]

I second the wands of grave strike. It won't open up crits, unfortunately, but if you're built right it won't matter, one full sneak attack will be fatal. Put grave strike in one weapon and wraithstrike in another (presuming you dual wield) and you can open up for an incredibly painful flurry of sneak attacks on anything crazy enough to stand next to you when you have a flanking buddy.

[Ravens_cry]

I second the wands of grave strike. It won't open up crits, unfortunately, but if you're built right it won't matter, one full sneak attack will be fatal. Put grave strike in one weapon and wraithstrike in another (presuming you dual wield) and you can open up for an incredibly painful flurry of sneak attacks on anything crazy enough to stand next to you when you have a flanking buddy.

Crits don't really help Rogues all that much unless they are a strength rogue build, and even then not so much. Having two light weapons with a 18-20 mod could still be very nice if you are allowed Pathfinder material. Butterfly Sting (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/butterfly-s-sting-critical) is a simply amazing feat if you have a flanking buddy with a weapon that crits hard, but not often.