A Players Guide to Incarnum

[TroubleBrewing]

I've looked around, but I don't see a finished guide to MoI. I've never written a guide before, but Pelor knows I've read hundreds. I could potentially write a guide without totally screwing it up.

Is this something the playground could use?

[Godskook]

The closest thing to a MoI guide is Sinfire's work over at BG's forum(I think that's where it is).

Honestly, what the system needs is a way to tell, level by level, what progressing as a particular soulmelder gives you.

I'll try and put something together on that front and post back in about 3 years.(J/k on the time estimate)

Edit:

Nevermind, forgot I tried to do that before and my brain imploded on figuring out how to organize it. Any suggestions?

[TroubleBrewing]

If you wanna work with me on this, that'd be cool. We can do this over PM if you want.

[Godskook]

Eh, might as well make this the brainstorming thread and then re-post when we got something more cohesive than "we're making a guide; no really!"

[Jjeinn-tae]

Jjeinn loves Incarnum, maybe he can help. Don't know how helpful I'd really be contributing to something like this, but if I think of something I'll chime in.

...Gotta see which melds are most useful for each class... mumble...

[TroubleBrewing]

Eh, might as well make this the brainstorming thread and then re-post when we got something more cohesive than "we're making a guide; no really!"

Fair. Seems like a better plan than just diving right in and hitting our heads on the bottom when it turns out that we suck at it. (That metaphor got rapidly out of my control...)


Jjeinn loves Incarnum, maybe he can help. Don't know how helpful I'd really be contributing to something like this, but if I think of something I'll chime in.

Feel free to chime all you like!

[Godskook]

Totemist Soulmelds by 'level'(just shaping this post):

Shaping:
{table=head] Name|Shape|invest|Rating|Chakra

Ankheg Breastplate|Armor bonus|bigger bonus|situational|Throat
Basilisk Mask|low-light vision|darkvision|situational|Brow
Beast Tamer Circlet|Bonus on Handle Animal and Wild Empathy|Bigger bonus|Weak|Crown
Behir Gorget|Bonus against BR and Trip|electric resistance|situational|Throat
Blink Shirt|Dimension Door|range|great|Heart
Blood Talons|as Diehard|Bonus on Spot|situational|hands
Brass Mane|Bonus on Intimidate|bigger bonus|situational|Throat
Disenchanter Mask|Detect Magic|Range|situational|Brow
Displacer Mantle|Bonus on Hide|bigger bonus|situational|Shoulder
Dread Carapce|-attack/+damage|higher tradeoff|good|Arms, Feet, Heart
Frost Helm|as Endure Elements|cold resistance|situational|Crown
Girallon Arms|Bonus on Grapple and Climb|bigger bonus|situational|Arms
Gorgon Mask|Bonus on Fort Saves and against combat maneuvers|bigger bonus|weak|Throat
Great Raptor Mask|Bonus on Spot|bigger bonus|situational|Brow
Heart of Fire|Bonus when fighting cold creatures|bigger bonus|weak|Waist
Hunter's Circlet|Bonus on Heal and Survival|bigger bonus|situational|Crown
Kraken Mantle|Bonus on Swim|faster swim speed|weak|Arms
Krenshar Mask|Bonus on Jump and Move Silently|bigger bonus|situational|Brow
Kruthik Claws|Bonus on Hide and Move Silently|bigger bonus|good|Hands, Shoulders
Lamia Belt[Evil]|Bonus on Bluff and Hide|bigger bonus|situational|Waist
Lammasu Mantle[Good]|Deflection Bonus against [Evil]|Resistance bonus to saves against [Evil]|situational|Arms, Shoulders
Landshark Boots|Bonus on Jump|bigger bonus|weak|Feet
Manticore Belt|Bonus on Jump and Spot|bigger bonus|situational|Waist
Pegasus Cloak|Feather Fall and bonus on Jump|bigger bonus|great|Shoulders
Phase Cloak|Bonus on Climb, take 10|bigger bonus|situational|Shoulders
Phoenix Belt|Endure Elements|Fire Resistance|situational|Waist
Rage Claws|as Diehard|survive longer|good|Hands
Riding Bracers|Bonus on Handle Animal and Ride|bigger bonus|situational|Arms
Shadow Mantle|Bonus on Listen|bigger bonus|situational|Shoulders
Shedu Crown[Good]|Can't be pushed|bonus on saving throws against [mind-affecting]|weak|Crown, Heart
Sphinx Claws|Bonus on Strength skills and checks|bigger bonus|situational|Hands
Threefold Mask of the Chimera|Can't be flanked|bonus on Search and Spot|weak|Crown, Soul
Totem Avatar|Bonus HP|Natural Armor bonus|great|Arms, Feet, Heart, Shoulders
Unicorn Horn|Bonus on Wild Empathy and Move Silently|Bigger bonus|situational|Brow
Urskan Greaves|Bonus when moving on snow or ice|cold resistance|situational|Feet
Winter Mask|Touch fatigues target|damage on touch attack|situational|Throat
Worg Pelt|Bonus on Hide and Move Silently|bigger bonus|good|Feet, Hands
Wormtail Belt|Natural Armor bonus|bigger bonus|good|Waist
Yrthak Mask|Bonus on Listen|bigger bonus|situational|Brow[/table]

My ratings:
Great - In a rush? Just slap that on your build. Trust me, it'll work.
Good - Not quite 'great', but you don't really need to think about these past knowing what they do.
Situational - Usually quite good if you need it, but can be quite bad when you don't. Use your brain, and plan ahead.
Weak - Either outdone, unneeded, or only notable in extreme cases that won't typically come up. Optimizers and Desperate men can find uses for them, but don't expect it to be nearly as often as other melds.

Note: These judgements are based *PURELY* on the shaped benefits. Girallon's Arms is a situational shaped meld, a situational Arms bind, but a good/great Totem bind, as an example.

[candycorn]

I disagree on pegasus cloak. Even at low levels, dragonborn (wings) is way superior to it. I wouldn't rate it "Great". "Good", maybe, for the jump check.

Also, Totem Avatar? A few extra HP? That aren't even temp? Nah, not enough benefit to offset.

Rageclaws typically provides a better cushion of HP for less essentia invested.

And where are the Dragon Magic melds?

Personal experience on Yrthak mask: +6-10 on listen is usually very good. Whether it's trying to detect the beastie on the other side of the door... Eavesdropping... finding that darn sneaky thing... Listen is solid.

[Godskook]

I disagree on pegasus cloak. Even at low levels, dragonborn (wings) is way superior to it. I wouldn't rate it "Great". "Good", maybe, for the jump check.

I'm sorry, but "this one race-template hybrid does it better if you pick option #3" is not a valid argument for downgrading the status of a soulmeld when there's an additional 50+ races out there, a good 10+ of which are as common or moreso.

Same point goes for Raptoran.

I'd agree that it gets dropped into situational on Raptorans, Winged Dragonborns, and similar fellows, but I feel that this isn't common enough to warrant anything.

Also, nets.

And finally, the rating is 95% for the feather fall effect. Jump isn't a great skill, and optimizing for it is something that'd fall squarely into the situational rating(and there its outdone by Manticore Belt, which gives bonuses to two skills instead of one, making Pegasus Cloak a weak choice for the Jump bonus).


Also, Totem Avatar? A few extra HP? That aren't even temp? Nah, not enough benefit to offset.

Rageclaws typically provides a better cushion of HP for less essentia invested.

1.Rageclaws, quite honestly, is more likely to get you killed than Totem Avatar, since often times, falling unconscious will 'break aggro' long enough for someone to heal you or the fight to end(and then be healed/stabilized).

2.Max essentia capacity is ~7. The 'cushion' provided by this theoretical max is 21. Totem Avatar provides just about that much, more evenly per level, and does so without any investments of any sort.

3.The cushion from TA is also essentia free, meaning you're not committed to using your Essentia to keep yourself from insta-dying like you are with Rage claws.

4.TA provides AC and HP, while Rage claws only provides effective HP.

I'm pretty sure I got that one right, especially since Rage Claws are rated as 'good'(and not situational)


And where are the Dragon Magic melds?

Geez, give me a chance to do them, eh?


Personal experience on Yrthak mask: +6-10 on listen is usually very good. Whether it's trying to detect the beastie on the other side of the door... Eavesdropping... finding that darn sneaky thing... Listen is solid.

A solid skill(among the top 4ish among soulmeld shapes), but I was using the metric of "it takes 2 skills to be situational". Probably could bump it up to situational if there's not a different meld that does it better(goes to check).

And just checked, and the meld is already marked situational. I think you're misunderstanding how good 'situational' is, and by that, I mean that if I marked something situational, it means that its good enough that if you like it, want it, or need it in your situation, take it, but its not going to be among my top 10 general purpose melds to shape.

I'll admit that the melds that give bonuses to spot and listen are probably the ones that sit closest to the border between "situational" and "good". Eh, I'll think about it, hear what others have to say, and we'll go from there.

[candycorn]

I'm sorry, but "this one race-template hybrid does it better if you pick option #3" is not a valid argument for downgrading the status of a soulmeld when there's an additional 50+ races out there, a good 10+ of which are as common or moreso.

Same point goes for Raptoran.

I'd agree that it gets dropped into situational on Raptorans, Winged Dragonborns, and similar fellows, but I feel that this isn't common enough to warrant anything.

Also, nets.

And finally, the rating is 95% for the feather fall effect. Jump isn't a great skill, and optimizing for it is something that'd fall squarely into the situational rating(and there its outdone by Manticore Belt, which gives bonuses to two skills instead of one, making Pegasus Cloak a weak choice for the Jump bonus).

Come on now... Feather Fall is a situational boost. You may use it one encounter out of 10. That's the very DEFINITION of situational.

Compare to listen, which is useful in most encounters, over the course of a day. Or even jump, which will see use in a wide variety of environments, and getting up to being able to reliably make a 10 foot jump from a standing start (DC 20) can have a solid effect on where you can go.

No. You overvalue feather fall. There are cheap items that grant feather fall for those occasional situations when you need it. Heck, even the arcane caster of the group can cast one on the fall, and hit the whole group.

No. Just no. It's nowhere near that valuable. Peddle that snake-oil if you want... Doesn't make it worth buying.

No skill does listen better than the Yrthak mask. +4(+2) is as good as it gets.

Also, totemist can get around 8-9 essentia in a meld, eventually.

Totem Avatar gives you 1hp/ level.

That's nothing for a class with a Con focus. Let's look at the difference between 12 and 13 HP at level 1. Nothing.
Between 106 and 116 at level 10? Enemies here will be swinging enough to make this worthless. Don't believe me? Look at the damage of a Hill giant at this level.
Between 250 and 270 hp at level 20? You're dealing with 100 damage hits. Worthless.

The nat armor bonus is strictly inferior in every way to wormtail belt.

And you're rating this above Yrthak mask.

It is my sincere opinion that you vastly, VASTLY, VASTLY undervalue the use of skills. When a skill finds a use in most encounters, major boosts to that skill are not "situational". They are "regular".

When you fall in a pit once a month, because you failed your jump check that you devalued? Well, feather fall will help you. That's "situational". Come to think of it, if you never invest in jump, I can see how Feather Fall may be more useful. By that logic, you should be rating the climb melds up, though, for all the climbing you'll have to do after you've feather falled.

[Godskook]

Come on now... Feather Fall is a situational boost. You may use it one encounter out of 10. That's the very DEFINITION of situational.

Feather Fall is like a seat belt. You probably don't need it most of the time, but when you do, you're probably dead if you didn't use it. Getting it as an always-on shaped effect at level 1 is quite powerful, and something that works throughout the your career too.


Compare to listen, which is useful in most encounters, over the course of a day. Or even jump, which will see use in a wide variety of environments, and getting up to being able to reliably make a 10 foot jump from a standing start (DC 20) can have a solid effect on where you can go.

1.Listen is already a Totemist class skill, meaning that you can get a decent listen check without a soulmeld. Having more can be useful, but its not something I'd shape on an average day. Immunity to falling damage is.

2.You're misreading the jump skill. The listed jump check is DC 40. You double the table listing when making a standing start jump.


No. You overvalue feather fall. There are cheap items that grant feather fall for those occasional situations when you need it. Heck, even the arcane caster of the group can cast one on the fall, and hit the whole group.

No. Just no. It's nowhere near that valuable. Peddle that snake-oil if you want... Doesn't make it worth buying.

1.Let's not bring Schrodinger's Wizard into this, especially cause there's no guarantee that the wizard is even going to be with the totemist, or even be in the party.

2.A ring of feather fall doesn't count as 'cheap' until level ~8. Before that, its a major purchase, and that's assuming a DM who stays to WBL.


No skill does listen better than the Yrthak mask. +4(+2) is as good as it gets.

I agreed that Yrthak Mask may warrant being bumped up a notch, but conditional on actually waiting to hear what others think. Give it more than 30 minutes at 6am Eastern, eh?


Also, totemist can get around 8-9 essentia in a meld, eventually.

Correction: They can get around 8-9 essentia in their Totem Bind. The class offers no benefit any other soulmeld, and I'm not evaluating binding benefits.

Considering that the feat doesn't self-stack, how the hell are you getting that high on a non-totem bind for a Totemist?


Totem Avatar gives you 1hp/ level.

That's nothing for a class with a Con focus. Let's look at the difference between 12 and 13 HP at level 1. Nothing.
Between 106 and 116 at level 10? Enemies here will be swinging enough to make this worthless. Don't believe me? Look at the damage of a Hill giant at this level.
Between 250 and 270 hp at level 20? You're dealing with 100 damage hits. Worthless.

The nat armor bonus is strictly inferior in every way to wormtail belt.

And you're rating this above Yrthak mask.

1.I personally prefer Wormtail belt at low levels, just so I can stack AC to high heaven, but AC + HP > AC - 2, in my opinion.

2.Yes, I rate defensive stats on a melee above skill-monkey stats. Go figure.


When you fall in a pit once a month, because you failed your jump check that you devalued? Well, feather fall will help you. That's "situational". Come to think of it, if you never invest in jump, I can see how Feather Fall may be more useful. By that logic, you should be rating the climb melds up, though, for all the climbing you'll have to do after you've feather falled.

Really, a strawman argument? Can we not do those?

[candycorn]

Feather Fall is like a seat belt. You probably don't need it most of the time, but when you do, you're probably dead if you didn't use it. Getting it as an always-on shaped effect at level 1 is quite powerful, and something that works throughout the your career too.A level appropriate fall will almost NEVER kill you, unless you've already taken some damage. You're overstating a threat.

1.Listen is already a Totemist class skill, meaning that you can get a decent listen check without a soulmeld. Having more can be useful, but its not something I'd shape on an average day. Immunity to falling damage is.I suppose we disagree on the use of boosting a class skill to the point where a totemist can be an effective scout, vs a situationally effective ability, by your own admission.

2.You're misreading the jump skill. The listed jump check is DC 40. You double the table listing when making a standing start jump.YOU'RE misreading the jump skill. The base DC for a 10 foot jump is DC 10. Once doubled for a standing jump, it's DC 20.

1.Let's not bring Schrodinger's Wizard into this, especially cause there's no guarantee that the wizard is even going to be with the totemist, or even be in the party.True, there's no guarantee. Just like there's no guarantee there will be a massive 200 foot fall around every corner, just a-waitin' for that totemist. If only the totemist has his meld shaped, then in such a situation, the totemist is gonna be shelling out 15,000 in gems for those resurrection spells on the rest of the party, who were so unfortunate as to have this absolutely can't live without ability.


2.A ring of feather fall doesn't count as 'cheap' until level ~8. Before that, its a major purchase, and that's assuming a DM who stays to WBL.Check the MIC. There are 1 shot items in the couple hundred gold range. Useful for a situational effect, and cheap enough to cover it WITHOUT wasting a limited resource.

In short, you're shoehorning the totemist into a melee-only role, without recognizing that the melds allow a totemist to be a scout one day, an offensive melee the next, and a skirmisher after that. Yeah, if you want to say "totemist must melee or totemist bad" then yeah, you may have a point that a negligible defensive boost may rate higher than a significant detection skill boost.

[candycorn]

My ratings:
Situational - Usually quite good if you need it, but can be quite bad when you don't. Use your brain, and plan ahead.


Feather Fall is like a seat belt. You probably don't need it most of the time, but when you do, you're probably dead if you didn't use it. Getting it as an always-on shaped effect at level 1 is quite powerful, and something that works throughout your career too.
Feather fall - Rarely needed, and useless when you don't, but "Quite good when you need it".

So.... Why is this not situational, again? YOUR OWN WORDS rate this as precisely your own definition of situational.

[flumphy]

A level appropriate fall will almost NEVER kill you, unless you've already taken some damage.
You're assuming that the DM will stick to "level-appropriate" falls. That is a very, very big assumption, one that doesn't really play out in my experience. I consider myself to have more of a gamist mentality than most on these boards, and even I go more by verisimilitude than level-appropriateness when it comes to falling distance.


Check the MIC. There are 1 shot items in the couple hundred gold range. Useful for a situational effect, and cheap enough to cover it WITHOUT wasting a limited resource.

And gold isn't a limited resource?

Most groups don't really need or want versatile characters, unless you have extremely hit or miss attendance. Most people build with an expected role in mind. If for some reason you're building a scout totemist, then of course that's the better option. Otherwise, I would argue that the skill boost is equally situational if not more so.

[candycorn]

You're assuming that the DM will stick to "level-appropriate" falls. That is a very, very big assumption, one that doesn't really play out in my experience. I consider myself to have more of a gamist mentality than most on these boards, and even I go more by verisimilitude than level-appropriateness when it comes to falling distance.Yes, I am assuming that the DM sticks to level appropriate challenges. I also assume that the DM won't send a level 4 party against a CR 11 dragon, because this is something the game is not designed around.

True. Bad DM's will mean this is more valuable. I will concede that if the DM has 300 foot dropoffs on narrow mountain ledges requiring DC 25 balance checks, at level 3, that Feather Fall is essential to such campaigns.

Can we move on from extremely situational and anecdotal examples?

And gold isn't a limited resource?

Most groups don't really need or want versatile characters, unless you have extremely hit or miss attendance. Most people build with an expected role in mind. If for some reason you're building a scout totemist, then of course that's the better option. Otherwise, I would argue that the skill boost is equally situational if not more so.
Sure. Gold's limited. In the thousands, even at low levels.
Compare to the number of melds you get.

You can argue what you wish, but arguing without any cogent points is like... moving a F-150 without gas. You'll end up red in the face, and won't get very far.

Listen can determine encounter start range, deny enemies surprise rounds, grant your team a surprise round, locate enemies in conditions of darkness and fog, detect hiding/invisible enemies, eavesdrop on distant conversations, and more.

Calling that situational is like calling a bonus to attack rolls situational. Having 2 people that can hear, or spot? That means there's a fallback, in case of a single poor role. It's called "redundancy", and makes groups more sturdy, and less vulnerable to poor rolls.

[Godskook]

Feather fall - Rarely needed, and useless when you don't, but "Quite good when you need it".

So.... Why is this not situational, again? YOUR OWN WORDS rate this as precisely your own definition of situational.

Because I'm very bad about relaying different contexts using the same words, and the internet just amplifies that a hundred fold?

On the other side of this, I really don't understand why you're so gritty about this. Of your original points:

1.I've agreed that I should at least reconsider melds that give a bonus to listen checks, and I'm waiting to see what Grey and others think.

2.The totem avatar vs rage claws thing kinda stopped

3.You think that Pegasus Cloak is over rated

You've made your points, I've heard them, and we'll see what's to be said by others.

[KillianHawkeye]

Any chance on getting a similar list for Incarnate soulmelds?

[AMFV]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news. But there's already a pretty decent handbook for this on BG: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=551. Not stopping you from writing your own thing obviously, but at least this'll probably help as it's pretty well organized.

[Godskook]

Any chance on getting a similar list for Incarnate soulmelds?

Here's my to-do list on the subject:
1.Totemist
1a.Shaped soulmelds
1b.Totem bound soulmelds
1c-1L.Other chakra bound soulmelds
1m.Non-MoI soulmelds
2.Incarnate(see Totemist)
3.Soulborn(see Totemist)

I've got a ways to go before I'm cranking out the Incarnate ones, but I'm working on it.


I hate to be the bearer of bad news. But there's already a pretty decent handbook for this on BG: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=551. Not stopping you from writing your own thing obviously, but at least this'll probably help as it's pretty well organized.

Not to dis the best(and only, really) guidebook to have existed for MoI over the duration of years(and he's really got some good stuff in there), but that guide is 3 years old, unfinished, and fails to do the most important thing to do when dealing with meldshaping: separate low-level effects from high-level effects.

The Totemist Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2943.0) evaluates soulmelds in chunks, and is the equivalent of evaluating Alter Self based on what you can do with Shapechange.

No, the standard for MoI guides has not been held to the same bar that, say, a wizard's guide would be, where there's a level-by-level breakdown of what you can get and when, allowing people to plan their builds better and better understand what the class is capable of at any given level.

(Again, I'm not really criticizing Sinfire's work. His handbooks are the only reason I could even learn Incarnum in the first place, so queue the line about peeing far off the shoulders of giants)

[TroubleBrewing]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news. But there's already a pretty decent handbook for this on BG: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=551. Not stopping you from writing your own thing obviously, but at least this'll probably help as it's pretty well organized.

Oh, I'm aware of sinfire's work. It actually sparked my own interest in creating a guide.

The main problem is the lack of explanation on the subject of Essentia and Incarnum itself. I'd like to explain to newer players (in simpler terms than the book does) how the system works, as well as providing optimization tips and a table or two on the soulmelds. Things can get pretty hectic in MoI.

EDIT:
1.I've agreed that I should at least reconsider melds that give a bonus to listen checks, and I'm waiting to see what Grey and others think.

Listen is easily one of the top 4 most useful skills in 3.5. I think it should stay where it's at.


3.You think that Pegasus Cloak is over rated

It isn't. Not in the slightest. First off, yeah, you can have a ring of feather fall. However, you've only got two ring slots, and this will save you one.

Second, as it is a Totemist-only meld, it aids Jump checks, which is good for any melee build that might even have the slightest taste of the delicious nectar of Leap Attack.

Third, if you bind it to one of two different slots, one being the totem slot, you get a fly speed. At 2nd level. That's the earliest fly speed available to non-Warlocks, unless I'm totally wrong.

[Godskook]

Listen is easily one of the top 4 most useful skills in 3.5. I think it should stay where it's at.

I think you misunderstood the debate then. Candycorn was arguing that listen-based soulmelds should be given a higher rating, not a lower one.


It isn't. Not in the slightest. First off, yeah, you can have a ring of feather fall. However, you've only got two ring slots, and this will save you one.

Second, as it is a Totemist-only meld, it aids Jump checks, which is good for any melee build that might even have the slightest taste of the delicious nectar of Leap Attack.

Third, if you bind it to one of two different slots, one being the totem slot, you get a fly speed. At 2nd level. That's the earliest fly speed available to non-Warlocks, unless I'm totally wrong.

1.While the two-slots thing is notable due to how shaping works, I'm explicitly limiting that section to shaped effects only. There'll be separate tables for evaluating the different chakra binds.

2.The fly speed is so weak on the Totem bind that I find it completely underwhelming, especially when compared to the Incarnate soulmeld, which debateably gives bonafide flight once you bind them to your feet chakra. Considering how integral a good totem bind is to being a Totemist, I'd probably never bind Pegasus Cloak to it, over just about every other totem bind out there. I'd say weak, or situational at best.

[candycorn]

Listen is easily one of the top 4 most useful skills in 3.5. I think it should stay where it's at.Where it's at is "situational". I don't see how one of the top four skills in existence is "meh".


It isn't. Not in the slightest. First off, yeah, you can have a ring of feather fall. However, you've only got two ring slots, and this will save you one.MIC, 163. Life Ring. 400gp item. Feather fall. If it's occasional use, that's the unslotted item.


Second, as it is a Totemist-only meld, it aids Jump checks, which is good for any melee build that might even have the slightest taste of the delicious nectar of Leap Attack.Landshark is better for jumping.

Third, if you bind it to one of two different slots, one being the totem slot, you get a fly speed. At 2nd level. That's the earliest fly speed available to non-Warlocks, unless I'm totally wrong.Starspawn is a feat available to level 1 characters, with modest flaw use. The totem fly speed is incredibly limited. A decent jump will take you farther.

And the list is built solely on the utility of the shaping, not the chakra bind.

[Greenish]

Jump isn't a great skillWell, you need a decent jump bonus to use Landshark Boots on lower levels, and the cloak helps there. (I'm currently playing a totemist with -7 jump modifier. So much for shaping them boots. :smalltongue:)

Cheapest feather fall item I know of is Feather Fall Talisman (Sharn - The City of Towers), which is 50 gp one-shot trinket, but that's neither here nor there.

[TroubleBrewing]

Wow, I really ought to get more sleep. I just re-read what I posted, and I sound like a damn lunatic. Disregard that whole post.

[Godskook]

Totem Binds:
Ankheg Breastplate - For very early levels, probably a strong single natural weapon attack, given that you can get at least 3 dice of damage off it. However, bite attacks are easy to get, and later game, you'll probably do better with several of the other soulmelds if you're stacking damage at all. The shaped bonus is also synergistic, helping give you an AC worth being in melee with.
Basilisk Mask - A short range full-round gaze attack that still gives fort save for a 1 round benefit? Not great. I'm sure there's ways to make it work, but its not really going to be synergistic with most builds.
Beast Tamer Circlet -
Behir Gorget - Like Ankheg, but less synergy when shaped. And considering that things which deal electric damage often also have resistance or immunity to it as well, the situations where this is notably useful are probably rare.
Blink Shirt - Incredibly good in any circumstance where you can make good use of a standard action before teleporting away. However, Totemists are typically built as bruisers, and devoting your Totem to an escape maneuver is typically not a good idea. Remember you have this option though.
Blood Talons - Strictly worse than Rage Claws, and occupies the same chakra. Only notable for the investment bonus if you somehow find a way to get more claw attacks, easiest via Double Chakra with Girallon Arms chakra bind. A lot of hoops for not much pay off.
Brass Mane - Another bite attack, but with enhancement bonus on investment. Again, Ankheg is better in most circumstances where you want a Bite attack from your Totem.
Disenchanter Mask - A debuffing totem bind. I can see it being useful, but the highly limiting nature of using it makes me wary. If you're new to MoI, leave this one to the experts.
Displacer Mantle - Primarily notable for being the first(alphabetically) Totem bind to give multiple attacks. Doesn't play nice with natural attack builds and can't be used on a Standard Action. Still, between the bonus reach and the double attacks, you can probably do some interesting things with this early in your career.
Dread Carapace - Save vs Fear whenever you charge. Awesome in fear-based charger builds(there's ways with Barbarians). Mediocre whenever you don't stack fear effects.
Frost Helm - Semi-AoE standard action stun that might last longer than a round? Can be a great asset, but use it with caution, and bring friends with Scythes.
Girallon Arms - Generally speaking, probably the most powerful Totem bind in the game for natural attack builds. 4 claws that 'play nice' with other natural attacks.
Gorgon Mask - Trample attack is incredibly useful when fighting mooks at low levels. Probably not a default bind, but if you know you're going to be fighting large amounts of mooks, this can get useful real fast. Especially cause there's no attack roll. Just a reflex save for half.
Great Raptor Mask - Evasion. Probably most notable if you're trying to enter some prestige class you shouldn't otherwise get into.
Heart of Fire - Doesn't give natural attacks, but does give you bonus damage on them. You pretty much have to build for it to make this at all worth while, and you're probably going to get more mileage out of simply grabbing Shape Soulmeld(Thunderstep Boots) from the Soulborn list. Fire is also probably the most commonly resisted element, so yeah.
Hunter's Circlet - Limited scent and a bonus when tracking, but still requires the Track feat. Incredibly weak. If you need scent, go to ToB.
Kraken Mantle - Water Breathing. Highly situational, but when you need it, you need it.
Krenshar Mask - Standard action frightening, that can be repeated as nauseum. Another one of those "good at low-levels or if you build for it" soulmelds.
Kruthik Claws - 2 claws that both deal bonus acid damage/essentia. Can probably come out ahead of Girallon Arms in the first few levels, and finally, a bind that's better than Ankheg, despite being a different natural attack.
Lamia Belt[Evil] - Claws that don't use your arms. Handy if you're using a weapon for some odd reason. Actually stacks with Girallon arms for 6 claws if you go Double Chakra.
Lammasu Mantle[Good] - Good early game as a way to get a high-dice breath weapon for the level. Scales poorly with level compared to Dragonfire Adept. Deals fire damage, which is a bad damage type. Short range doesn't help much either.
Landshark Boots - Psuedo pounce with 4 claw attacks, all at your best bonus. Probably the best early game natural attack bind. Girallon Arms are just better once you're stacking attacks though.
Manticore Belt - Notable, especially if you're too squishy compared to what you're fighting.
Pegasus Cloak - Really bad psuedo-fly, but available at level 2. Weak, imho.
Phase Cloak - Bite attack with poison on it? Can be very potent, but use with caution. You're often times going to be better with Landshark, Kruthik, or Girallon.
Phoenix Belt - 3x3 fireball that you gotta stand in the middle of. The damage is good, but you'll almost always do better with Lammasu.
Rage Claws - Other than being almost strictly better than Bloodtalons, I'm not liking these. They're good, but its the brawling synergy with shaped effect that really makes them notable compared to more damaging options.
Riding Bracers - No, just no. The shaped effect plus any skill point investment gives you 95% of what you'd bind this to your totem for. Should be set on fire. (This is the first time I've said this while writing this guide)
Shadow Mantle - And wow, twice in a row, I want to set a totem bind on fire. Hide is a good skill check, but the 20+ times you can do it as a shaped effect makes giving it as a Totem Bind epic fail. Totem's your signature bind, and one of the most powerful. Replicating a shaped meld effect is *NOT* a good choice. Y'know what? （╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻
Shedu Crown[Good] - Same trample, different chakra. Same evaluation as Gorgon Mask
Sphinx Claws - Another 2 claw bind, and no more notable than the others.
Threefold Mask of the Chimera - Notable for being able to occupy your Soul Chakra, which you're just not going to use otherwise. Outside of that, it doesn't play nice with natural attack builds, making it a subpar choice for that purpose, and is inferior to Landshark as a stand-alone attack bind.
Totem Avatar - Synergy with natural attack builds, but you're probably going to need Double Chakra before you even care that this exists.
Unicorn Horn - A gore attack. Handy to know you have for when you want to Double Chakra(gore is a rare natural attack), but is fairly lackluster outside of that purpose.
Urskan Greaves - I...really don't know about the overrun option, but my instincts tell me that this isn't useful.
Winter Mask - The cold brother to Ankheg.
Worg Pelt - Bite attack. I'm getting sick of Bite attack totem binds by now.
Wormtail Belt - Only notable in espionage settings as a way to paralyze opponents you've already defeated. Mid combat, the str poison probably won't be noticeable compared to higher damage options.
Yrthak Mask - Decent damage, good range, touch attack, second best element. All good points. I like it, even if I'd personally rather have a different bind.


Well, you need a decent jump bonus to use Landshark Boots on lower levels, and the cloak helps there. (I'm currently playing a totemist with -7 jump modifier. So much for shaping them boots. :smalltongue:)

Your point quotes me out of context. Like really out of context.

[Greenish]

Your point quotes me out of context. Like really out of context.I was just saying (for the conversation in general) that at lower levels you might need Jump bonuses where you can get them. Getting them on the side of Feather Fall isn't a bad call.

[Edit]: I'd point out Sphinx Claws have the highest damage dice, and before you take Multiattack are probably the best damage after Landshark Boots.

[Big Fau]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news. But there's already a pretty decent handbook for this on BG: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=551. Not stopping you from writing your own thing obviously, but at least this'll probably help as it's pretty well organized.

As stated above, not really what this thread is about.


Although he probably has a few posts saved explaining how everything works. Anyone here got a BG account?

[Greenish]

Shaping Kraken Mantle doesn't exactly give you swim speed*, and the Totem Bind is just constant Waterbreathing.


*Swim speed would mean you don't need to roll to move, that you get +8 racial (instead of competence of the soulmeld) bonus to swim checks, and can take 10 with them.

[Thurbane]

Is this something the playground could use?
It's certainly something I'd like to see.

[Godskook]

Totem Binds by Chakra(Crown):
Beast Tamer Circlet - Animal Trance, at-will(or 1/combat). I can't see it being useful in D&D, or in combat at all. Also doesn't work for stealth missions since it involves singing/chanting. I don't think its worth it.
Frost Helm - Semi-AoE standard action stun that might last longer than a round? Can be a great asset, but use it with caution, and bring friends with Scythes.
Hunter's Circlet - Limited scent and a bonus when tracking, but still requires the Track feat. Incredibly weak. If you need scent, go to ToB.
Shedu Crown[Good] - Same trample, different chakra. Same evaluation as Gorgon Mask
Threefold Mask of the Chimera - Notable for being able to occupy your Soul Chakra, which you're just not going to use otherwise. Outside of that, it doesn't play nice with natural attack builds, making it a subpar choice for that purpose, and is inferior to Landshark as a stand-alone attack bind.
Totem Binds by Chakra(Feet):
Dread Carapace - Save vs Fear whenever you charge. Awesome in fear-based charger builds(there's ways with Barbarians). Mediocre whenever you don't stack fear effects.
Landshark Boots - Psuedo pounce with 4 claw attacks, all at your best bonus. Probably the best early game natural attack bind. Girallon Arms are just better once you're stacking attacks though.
Totem Avatar - Synergy with natural attack builds, but you're probably going to need Double Chakra before you even care that this exists.
Urskan Greaves - I...really don't know about the overrun option, but my instincts tell me that this isn't useful.
Worg Pelt - Bite attack. I'm getting sick of Bite attack totem binds by now.
Totem Binds by Chakra(Hands):
Blood Talons - Strictly worse than Rage Claws, and occupies the same chakra. Only notable for the investment bonus if you somehow find a way to get more claw attacks, easiest via Double Chakra with Girallon Arms chakra bind. A lot of hoops for not much pay off.
Kruthik Claws - 2 claws that both deal bonus acid damage/essentia. Can probably come out ahead of Girallon Arms in the first few levels, and finally, a bind that's better than Ankheg, despite being a different natural attack.
Rage Claws - Other than being almost strictly better than Bloodtalons, I'm not liking these. They're good, but its the brawling synergy with shaped effect that really makes them notable compared to more damaging options.
Sphinx Claws - Another 2 claw bind, and no more notable than the others.
Worg Pelt - Bite attack. I'm getting sick of Bite attack totem binds by now.
Totem Binds by Chakra(Arms):
Dread Carapace - Save vs Fear whenever you charge. Awesome in fear-based charger builds(there's ways with Barbarians). Mediocre whenever you don't stack fear effects.
Girallon Arms - Generally speaking, probably the most powerful Totem bind in the game for natural attack builds. 4 claws that 'play nice' with other natural attacks.
Kraken Mantle - Water Breathing. Highly situational, but when you need it, you need it.
Lammasu Mantle[Good] - Good early game as a way to get a high-dice breath weapon for the level. Scales poorly with level compared to Dragonfire Adept. Deals fire damage, which is a bad damage type. Short range doesn't help much either.
Riding Bracers - No, just no. The shaped effect plus any skill point investment gives you 95% of what you'd bind this to your totem for. Should be set on fire. (This is the first time I've said this while writing this guide)
Totem Avatar - Synergy with natural attack builds, but you're probably going to need Double Chakra before you even care that this exists.
Totem Binds by Chakra(Brow):
Basilisk Mask - A short range full-round gaze attack that still gives fort save for a 1 round benefit? Not great. I'm sure there's ways to make it work, but its not really going to be synergistic with most builds.
Disenchanter Mask - A debuffing totem bind. I can see it being useful, but the highly limiting nature of using it makes me wary. If you're new to MoI, leave this one to the experts.
Great Raptor Mask - Evasion. Probably most notable if you're trying to enter some prestige class you shouldn't otherwise get into.
Krenshar Mask - Standard action frightening, that can be repeated as nauseum. Another one of those "good at low-levels or if you build for it" soulmelds.
Unicorn Horn - A gore attack. Handy to know you have for when you want to Double Chakra(gore is a rare natural attack), but is fairly lackluster outside of that purpose.
Yrthak Mask - Decent damage, good range, touch attack, second best element. All good points. I like it, even if I'd personally rather have a different bind.
Totem Binds by Chakra(Shoulder):
Displacer Mantle - Primarily notable for being the first(alphabetically) Totem bind to give multiple attacks. Doesn't play nice with natural attack builds and can't be used on a Standard Action. Still, between the bonus reach and the double attacks, you can probably do some interesting things with this early in your career.
Kruthik Claws - 2 claws that both deal bonus acid damage/essentia. Can probably come out ahead of Girallon Arms in the first few levels, and finally, a bind that's better than Ankheg, despite being a different natural attack.
Lammasu Mantle[Good] - Good early game as a way to get a high-dice breath weapon for the level. Scales poorly with level compared to Dragonfire Adept. Deals fire damage, which is a bad damage type. Short range doesn't help much either.
Pegasus Cloak - Really bad psuedo-fly, but available at level 2. Weak, imho.
Phase Cloak - Bite attack with poison on it? Can be very potent, but use with caution. You're often times going to be better with Landshark, Kruthik, or Girallon.
Shadow Mantle - And wow, twice in a row, I want to set a totem bind on fire. Hide is a good skill check, but the 20+ times you can do it as a shaped effect makes giving it as a Totem Bind epic fail. Totem's your signature bind, and one of the most powerful. Replicating a shaped meld effect is *NOT* a good choice. Y'know what? （╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻
Totem Avatar - Synergy with natural attack builds, but you're probably going to need Double Chakra before you even care that this exists.
Totem Binds by Chakra(Throat):
Ankheg Breastplate - For very early levels, probably a strong single natural weapon attack, given that you can get at least 3 dice of damage off it. However, bite attacks are easy to get, and later game, you'll probably do better with several of the other soulmelds if you're stacking damage at all. The shaped bonus is also synergistic, helping give you an AC worth being in melee with.
Behir Gorget - Like Ankheg, but less synergy when shaped. And considering that things which deal electric damage often also have resistance or immunity to it as well, the situations where this is notably useful are probably rare.
Brass Mane - Another bite attack, but with enhancement bonus on investment. Again, Ankheg is better in most circumstances where you want a Bite attack from your Totem.
Gorgon Mask - Trample attack is incredibly useful when fighting mooks at low levels. Probably not a default bind, but if you know you're going to be fighting large amounts of mooks, this can get useful real fast. Especially cause there's no attack roll. Just a reflex save for half.
Winter Mask - The cold brother to Ankheg.
Totem Binds by Chakra(Waist):
Heart of Fire - Doesn't give natural attacks, but does give you bonus damage on them. You pretty much have to build for it to make this at all worth while, and you're probably going to get more mileage out of simply grabbing Shape Soulmeld(Thunderstep Boots) from the Soulborn list. Fire is also probably the most commonly resisted element, so yeah.
Lamia Belt[Evil] - Claws that don't use your arms. Handy if you're using a weapon for some odd reason. Actually stacks with Girallon arms for 6 claws if you go Double Chakra.
Manticore Belt - Notable, especially if you're too squishy compared to what you're fighting.
Phoenix Belt - 3x3 fireball that you gotta stand in the middle of. The damage is good, but you'll almost always do better with Lammasu.
Wormtail Belt - Only notable in espionage settings as a way to paralyze opponents you've already defeated. Mid combat, the str poison probably won't be noticeable compared to higher damage options.
Totem Binds by Chakra(Heart):
Blink Shirt - Incredibly good in any circumstance where you can make good use of a standard action before teleporting away. However, Totemists are typically built as bruisers, and devoting your Totem to an escape maneuver is typically not a good idea. Remember you have this option though.
Dread Carapace - Save vs Fear whenever you charge. Awesome in fear-based charger builds(there's ways with Barbarians). Mediocre whenever you don't stack fear effects.
Shedu Crown[Good] - Same trample, different chakra. Same evaluation as Gorgon Mask
Totem Avatar - Synergy with natural attack builds, but you're probably going to need Double Chakra before you even care that this exists.
Totem Binds by Chakra(Soul):
Threefold Mask of the Chimera - Notable for being able to occupy your Soul Chakra, which you're just not going to use otherwise. Outside of that, it doesn't play nice with natural attack builds, making it a subpar choice for that purpose, and is inferior to Landshark as a stand-alone attack bind.

[Tvtyrant]

Urskan Greaves goes pretty well with the Heart of Fire in creating a mini-SA source. Combine with a charging natural attack (Sphinx Claws+Girallalon Arms Totem and maybe a bite/gore) and you get 10d4 to each hit in the sequence.

[candycorn]

Very good listing on Totem binds. I agree with this much more than the shaped list.

That said: I'd upgrade Riding bracers from "Burn" to "Weak". Handling animals without having to use move actions can let you issue multiple commands to your mount, which can be situationally useful, in rare circumstances. Not enough benefit to even make it situational, but if you're anticipating cross country travel, and evading the enemy, it can find a place, and if you're really trying to squeeze every last bit out of a ride check, it can be used to increase essentia cap by 1.

Blink Shirt: Totem bind allows you to get extra distance on the shaped effect, allowing 30-40 foot teleports, even at low levels, which obviate all kinds of terrain issues. Still, the bind is correctly placed. This is just listed as a utility option. It also has synergy with skirmish/stealth shaping (Kruthik Claws double bind), for setting up ambushes.

Final note: Don't underestimate the value of a bind that gets enhancement bonus on essentia investment to hit and damage. That means it has a chance to hit incorporeals, and can also bypass DR/magic (as early as level 2). Later on, it's more situational, but the first is situational, and the second is too damn common.

[Coidzor]

Still reading through this, but one thing I'd like to see a bit more on would be the Incarnum Dip, especially Totemist, because I know one can get the totem bind at 2 and natural attacks, but further information is kinda sparse.

[candycorn]

Still reading through this, but one thing I'd like to see a bit more on would be the Incarnum Dip, especially Totemist, because I know one can get the totem bind at 2 and natural attacks, but further information is kinda sparse.

Well, that's because 3 and 4 are kinda dead levels for a totemist. Totemist doesn't really begin to take off until around level 6. Until then, you have to kinda make do as you can.

That said, if your race has a natural attack, you're gonna do better. Darfellan and Warforged are absolutely excellent races, as they have a natural bite and slam attack, respectively. That means, at level 1, you'll qualify for multiattack, if you're dragonborn. (Claws of the Worm and Dragon Tail brings you to 4 attacks) Shifter can also be very good, especially for warshaper synergy.

At level 2, Girallon Claws(bound) + Dragon tail = 6 natural attacks.

It only goes up from there. Power attack at level 3, and, if you had an 18 strength? You're swinging +6/+4/+4/+4/+4/+4 on a full attack. If you dip barbarian for pounce (or find another way to get it), you can throw out so many attacks that you're bound to get a few through.

[RedWarrior0]

If you dip barbarian for pounce (or find another way to get it), you can throw out so many attacks that you're bound to get a few through.
You mean, like shaping Sphinx Claws?

[Metahuman1]

Since with Incarnum most of the stuff that your doing with your Soulmelds and Chakura Binds are done at the start of the day anyway, a dip in cleric with Travel domain traded for Travel Devotion would allow swift action moves and full attacks. Just mentioning.

[candycorn]

You mean, like shaping Sphinx Claws?

And binding it to your hands chakra, first available at level 5, and not really feasible until level 6 (when you get the ability to bind 2 chakras).

[Getsugaru]

The first game I ever played had me as a Half-Dragon Viletooth Lizardfolk Barbarian 1 Totemist 3. My character had over6 attacks in one round and was dealing an average 8 damage per hit, people say he was Angry. Anyway, according to KA, who taught me how to play D&D, I am really good when it comes to "the book of blue." I'd be happy to help out if you need it. Just let me know. :smallamused:

[candycorn]

The first game I ever played had me as a Half-Dragon Viletooth Lizardfolk Barbarian 1 Totemist 3. My character had over6 attacks in one round and was dealing an average 8 damage per hit, people say he was Angry. Anyway, according to KA, who taught me how to play D&D, I am really good when it comes to "the book of blue." I'd be happy to help out if you need it. Just let me know. :smallamused:

So... at ECL 9, you did 6 attacks, for a total of about 48 damage?

[Getsugaru]

So... at ECL 9, you did 6 attacks, for a total of about 48 damage?

My DM removed the natural HD from being a Lizardfolk, and let me buy off LA. So every round I did Bull Rush 1d8, Claw 1d8, Claw 1d8, Claw 1d8, Claw 1d8, Tail 1d10, Bite 1d6 with Poison 1d6, Grapple to keep inflicting Bite/Poison damage, not including my Strength Bonus (about +8 if I'm remembering correctly) done through the use of Girallon Arms+Blink Shirt+Natural Attacks. I also had a acid line Breath weapon out 60 feet that could do 2d8-2d10 if I'm remembering correctly. [Shuffles off to find D&D Character Sheet Folder Pen Drive]

[Godskook]

Urskan Greaves goes pretty well with the Heart of Fire in creating a mini-SA source. Combine with a charging natural attack (Sphinx Claws+Girallalon Arms Totem and maybe a bite/gore) and you get 10d4 to each hit in the sequence.

"SA source" is precision damage, and nothing you mention does that. (Yes, it did confuse me)

Also, could you be more specific as to how you're binding those(and at what level you're suggesting it for), cause its frustrating to have to assume that work just to understand what someone's saying.


That said: I'd upgrade Riding bracers from "Burn" to "Weak". Handling animals without having to use move actions can let you issue multiple commands to your mount, which can be situationally useful, in rare circumstances. Not enough benefit to even make it situational, but if you're anticipating cross country travel, and evading the enemy, it can find a place, and if you're really trying to squeeze every last bit out of a ride check, it can be used to increase essentia cap by 1.

Ride is a Totemist skill. Shaping the meld gives you a minimum +6 on the roll. A light warhorse is not only cheap at level 2, but there's little else you'll be able to afford at that level anyway(I.e., you'll have funds). The DC for controlling a Light Warhorse in battle is DC 10. With 5 ranks, a +6 from meld, you're already auto-passing it.

It stays in the Burn category until I can see a use that's not obviated by spending <10% of level 2 WBL and 5 skill points.



Final note: Don't underestimate the value of a bind that gets enhancement bonus on essentia investment to hit and damage. That means it has a chance to hit incorporeals, and can also bypass DR/magic (as early as level 2). Later on, it's more situational, but the first is situational, and the second is too damn common.

I'm not underestimating them. I'm estimating them poorly compared to other melds that do the exact same thing, but better. Landshark boots sets a *REALLY* high standard at low-levels that almost none of the other non-elemental claw melds can match, and as soon as you get pounce elsewhere, Girallon Arms starts becoming King of the Hill(You'll also have Multiattack by then). With those in mind, trading down from 4 attacks to 2 with slightly better damage dice is pretty much always a bad trade.


Still reading through this, but one thing I'd like to see a bit more on would be the Incarnum Dip, especially Totemist, because I know one can get the totem bind at 2 and natural attacks, but further information is kinda sparse.

For a level 2 dip, you get:
-2 shaped melds
-1 Totem Bind(and the shaped effect, so 3 shapes total)
-2 Essentia
-Wild Empathy

Far as I know, there's not really anything particularly notable outside that(like say Tashalatora for psionics dipping monk). Is it just that you're wanting a list of Totem binds or shaped melds that are really good for dipping?


The first game I ever played had me as a Half-Dragon Viletooth Lizardfolk Barbarian 1 Totemist 3. My character had over6 attacks in one round and was dealing an average 8 damage per hit, people say he was Angry. Anyway, according to KA, who taught me how to play D&D, I am really good when it comes to "the book of blue." I'd be happy to help out if you need it. Just let me know. :smallamused:

And here's my last Meldshaper (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=265125).

[Tvtyrant]

"SA source" is precision damage, and nothing you mention does that. (Yes, it did confuse me)

Also, could you be more specific as to how you're binding those(and at what level you're suggesting it for), cause its frustrating to have to assume that work just to understand what someone's saying.



...Sphinx claws are a hand bind for the pounce, girallon arms are a totem bind for four claws, Urskan Greaves are a leg bind, Heart of Fire is a totem bind. The Urskan Greaves grant you +1d4 damage per essentia invested on a charge with natural weapons, while you get +1d4 damage of fire damage on each natural attack from Heart of Fire. Since you likely have multiattack, your going to connect with a lot of natural attacks.

The mini-SA was a reference to adding additional dice to the attacks, not precision damage as such.

[Godskook]

...Sphinx claws are a hand bind for the pounce, girallon arms are a totem bind for four claws, Urskan Greaves are a leg bind, Heart of Fire is a totem bind. The Urskan Greaves grant you +1d4 damage per essentia invested on a charge with natural weapons, while you get +1d4 damage of fire damage on each natural attack from Heart of Fire. Since you likely have multiattack, your going to connect with a lot of natural attacks.

Neat trick at mid-high levels. Actually, the most useful parts come online a lot earlier, since you can dip Barbarian for pounce and Heart of Fire is the least impressive part due to the energy type and the double chakra requirement.

[Greenish]

Neat trick at mid-high levels. Actually, the most useful parts come online a lot earlier, since you can dip Barbarian for pounce and Heart of Fire is the least impressive part due to the energy type and the double chakra requirement.If you have feats to spare, grabbing Thunderstep Boots from Soulborn list is a pretty good idea. They give you bonus (sonic!) damage to each attack when charging just for being shaped.

The bind gives your every attack a chance to stun.

[Person_Man]

I have a spreadsheet and notes that I use, but haven't bothered putting them into a guide because Sinfire's guide covers most of it. If there's some sort of burning desire I could post it in a guide or just throw it all up here and let someone else organize it. But I'm not exactly sure what's lacking.

[Godskook]

I have a spreadsheet and notes that I use, but haven't bothered putting them into a guide because Sinfire's guide covers most of it. If there's some sort of burning desire I could post it in a guide or just throw it all up here and let someone else organize it. But I'm not exactly sure what's lacking.

The organization of the lists I've been making is completely missing from Sinfire's work, and was also the most difficult thing about learning 'more than a dip' MoI for me. Sinfire's lists were still helpful, but it was always annoying to find two binds that I wanted to use, spend time chasing down their chakras, and then realize that they both use the same chakra.

[candycorn]

Ride is a Totemist skill. Shaping the meld gives you a minimum +6 on the roll. A light warhorse is not only cheap at level 2, but there's little else you'll be able to afford at that level anyway(I.e., you'll have funds). The DC for controlling a Light Warhorse in battle is DC 10. With 5 ranks, a +6 from meld, you're already auto-passing it.

It stays in the Burn category until I can see a use that's not obviated by spending <10% of level 2 WBL and 5 skill points.

There are other uses of Ride. Cover Riding, for example. Swift mounting. Mounted Combat AC negation.

Let's look at: Totemist 2. Feat: Expanded essentia capacity, (Random +1 Essentia Feat), Mounted Combat

Riding Bracers, Expanded, Totem bound. Essentia Capacity: 3. Putting 3 in provides a +10 to ride. Assume Dex 14, and 4 ranks, and a MW item for ride, and that's a +18 to ride. That'll mount/dismount as a free action reliably, cover riding 100% of the time you want to, and negate mount hits with pretty good accuracy.

Yes, it's a focus, and it relies on optimization, but that's what "weak" is.

Also, with no ranks, and a +2 dex... Like you may find yourself if you didn't expect riding in a campaign. Shaping and binding lets you get to +8, which is +10, or reliable riding modifier.

Basically, the meld is a temporary free effect, and the skill ranks are a permanent investment. Spending free resources for an effect is usually superior to spending limited resources that aren't changeable.

Basically, it lets you put your skill points elsewhere, and still reliably have the skill when you need it.

[Godskook]

There are other uses of Ride. Cover Riding, for example. Swift mounting. Mounted Combat AC negation.

Let's look at: Totemist 2. Feat: Expanded essentia capacity, (Random +1 Essentia Feat), Mounted Combat

Riding Bracers, Expanded, Totem bound. Essentia Capacity: 3. Putting 3 in provides a +10 to ride. Assume Dex 14, and 4 ranks, and a MW item for ride, and that's a +18 to ride. That'll mount/dismount as a free action reliably, cover riding 100% of the time you want to, and negate mount hits with pretty good accuracy.

Yes, it's a focus, and it relies on optimization, but that's what "weak" is.

Also, with no ranks, and a +2 dex... Like you may find yourself if you didn't expect riding in a campaign. Shaping and binding lets you get to +8, which is +10, or reliable riding modifier.

Basically, the meld is a temporary free effect, and the skill ranks are a permanent investment. Spending free resources for an effect is usually superior to spending limited resources that aren't changeable.

Basically, it lets you put your skill points elsewhere, and still reliably have the skill when you need it.

Thinning out all the parts that you already get by simply shaping it, that amounts to exactly a +2 on ride checks. A flat +2 ride is burn in a fire territory if I ever heard it. Your point is just as valid for the Animal Affinity feat, and in both cases, its still 'burn in fire' territory

[candycorn]

Thinning out all the parts that you already get by simply shaping it, that amounts to exactly a +2 on ride checks. A flat +2 ride is burn in a fire territory if I ever heard it. Your point is just as valid for the Animal Affinity feat, and in both cases, its still 'burn in fire' territory

No, my point isn't, because the Animal Affinity feat is a permanent choice. You don't reselect feats every day. You don't reselect skill points every day.

In addition, being able to handle an animal with no ranks in handle animal, being able to reliably train animals using that handle animal without investment, and being able to handle that animal as a free action/push as a move action are not useless... In addition, getting evasion for your mount can be useful.

Those are all aspects of the totem bind that are exclusive to that bind. Those are things that can be legitimately useful. Not fantastic, but then, nobody's saying it's a fantastic meld.

Melds are like the Chameleon's floating feat, in many ways. You can use them for much more situational uses, because they don't represent a permanent investment, like skills, or most feats do.

No, it's not great. But with the meld/bind, even with no ranks in ride or handle animal, the totemist can reliably:
Mount an animal (move action)
Handle it to attack (move free action -Totem bind)
Mount charge, and attack.
Pass check to fight alongside it (nonaction)
Melee attack (standard action).

Without that bind, you need to be able to get a DC 20 ride to mount as a free action to get that off, and you're still very limited in the commands you give.

With the bind, you get the ability to issue 2-3 commands, without impacting your other actions.

In other words: this meld allows you to invest skill points in skills that are almost always useful, and gain a temporary bonus to more situational skills, for those situations where they would be useful.

[Godskook]

-or-

you could bind something else and get:

-Psuedo-pounce with 4 claws
-4 claws that work with other natural attacks
-move-action teleport
-Evasion on *YOU*
-2 claws with bonus acid dice/essentia
-3 ranged natural attacks as standard action
-Free fear effects when you charge
-AoE stuns

Its not worth a Totem Bind in pretty much every situation imaginable.

[candycorn]

-or-

you could bind something else and get:

-Psuedo-pounce with 4 claws
-4 claws that work with other natural attacks
-move-action teleport
-Evasion on *YOU*
-2 claws with bonus acid dice/essentia
-3 ranged natural attacks as standard action
-Free fear effects when you charge
-AoE stuns

Its not worth a Totem Bind in pretty much every situation imaginable.

Hm.
Did I say that Girallon arms, Landshark boots, or any of those other melds aren't *better*?

No. That's why they have a higher rating.

Move Action Teleport is somewhat out of place there, for the reasons you gave when you originally listed it. But yes, there are other melds which are better, hence their high rating (all those you listed are situational, good, or great).

So, if you're arguing that other melds are better? No argument. I already said that your guide placed all those correctly, at "more useful than this one".

What another meld does, doesn't change the strength of what this one does. Yeah, I get that it's weak. That's what I said.

I get that something else is usually better. That's what weak means. But let's say that we are in a situation where we would like to train an animal, and the party doesn't have someone trained in handle animal.

Which of the following will be most useful in accomplishing that task?

-Psuedo-pounce with 4 claws
-4 claws that work with other natural attacks
-move-action teleport
-Evasion on *YOU*
-2 claws with bonus acid dice/essentia
-3 ranged natural attacks as standard action
-Free fear effects when you charge
-AoE stuns
-Ability to train an animal without ranks in Handle Animal

Let's say we're in a situation where we need to jump a ravine, and our pack mule only has a +2 jump. We can take 10, so we slap a saddle on it. We need to get it across. Now, it's a 30 foot jump, but our ride check is only +12. (6 ranks, 5 dex (after a cat's grace from a caster in the party), 2 mw item)

Which ability will be of the greatest use getting that mount across?

-Psuedo-pounce with 4 claws
-4 claws that work with other natural attacks
-move-action teleport
-Evasion on *YOU*
-2 claws with bonus acid dice/essentia
-3 ranged natural attacks as standard action
-Free fear effects when you charge
-AoE stuns
-Ability to gain up to a +8 bonus to ride check.

There are uses for it, when time isn't of the essence. "Burn it" implies that there isn't any use for it. There are. Granted, in most combat situations, there are any of a number of melds that are better. That does justify their better rating.

But saying there's no use for it? No. There's times when it's cheaper to buy the mule, and train it yourself, than it is to buy the light warhorse. Even if you didn't anticipate needing to train one at character creation, it's nice to be able to cover that with a couple hours notice in game.

[Duskranger]

And here's my last Meldshaper (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=265125).


Godskook your math is off. Read the girallon claws. Only 1 of them is main. The rest goes for -2 with multiattack (or -5 without). Also remember you can only have 1 main weappon

[Godskook]

And here's my last Meldshaper (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=265125).

That's my sheet, I think you accidently copied the wrong link.


Godskook your math is off. Read the girallon claws. Only 1 of them is main. The rest goes for -2 with multiattack (or -5 without). Also remember you can only have 1 main weappon

I checked, and while I do have some math errors(mostly just a failure to upgrade damage dice due to Expansion) in the attack routine, Multiattack is not one of them. That character has Improved Multiattack which makes it a -0 on secondary attacks.

And I'm not really sure what you mean "main weapon" unless you're just referring to why they all have full attack bonus on them, which I just explained.

[Duskranger]

That's my sheet, I think you accidently copied the wrong link.



I checked, and while I do have some math errors(mostly just a failure to upgrade damage dice due to Expansion) in the attack routine, Multiattack is not one of them. That character has Improved Multiattack which makes it a -0 on secondary attacks.

And I'm not really sure what you mean "main weapon" unless you're just referring to why they all have full attack bonus on them, which I just explained.

Did not caught that one where's that from (improved multiattack). And the sheet was a quote error my apologies. It's yours.

[Greenish]

And I'm not really sure what you mean "main weapon" unless you're just referring to why they all have full attack bonus on them, which I just explained.He meant primary, I believe.


Did not caught that one where's that from (improved multiattack).It's a general (non-epic) feat from ELH, also found in SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#improvedMultiattack).

Is it worth taking for a totemist, though?

[candycorn]

It's a general (non-epic) feat from ELH, also found in SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#improvedMultiattack).

Is it worth taking for a totemist, though?

Totemists benefit more from power attack than most chargers, since the penalty for secondary natural attacks isn't as harsh as iteratives. That means that more attacks are likely to land.

That means that a bonus of +2 to all secondary attacks. If you weren't very likely to hit, makes you more likely.

And if you were? It's +2 damage per natural attack you have. 10-15 natural attacks isn't that rough to get by mid-high levels. That's +20-30 damage per round.

I'd say that it's generally worth it, though not as good as multiattack.

[Godskook]

Is it worth taking for a totemist, though?

You can't go wrong with it, but you can probably do better too. Depends on what's available and how annoyed your DM is with a build that already has 7 natural attacks as it is.

[Godskook]

Crown Chakra binds:
Beast Tamer Circlet - The wording is wonky, but at-will speaking with animals means you can now turn dogs, birds, and other small animals into spies for you. I'm sure there's ways to make this highly useful, but you won't be binding it unless you *KNOW* you're going to need it.
Frost Helm - Basically, you get an at-will CL 3 orb of cold. Not incredibly potent, but by RAW, there is neither a range nor a range increment on this attack, meaning that in a RAW environment, this can be quite potent for kiting a target at range. Talk to your DM about what he wants to do about that.
Hunter's Circlet - Remember that track feat you needed to be able to use the Totem bind? Here it is. Ironically, you can't use them together, cause its the same meld. However, this half is actually functional, since Track + Survival bonus(from the shaped effect) means you can actually track fairly well, even without skill ranks.
Shedu Crown[Good] - This is probably the winner of the Crown bind contest. 100' telepathy, although it may not count for pre-reqs. Still, if you're ever sneaking around, being able to relay to the party what's going on up front without alerting the enemy is a handy tool.
Threefold Mask of the Chimera - Combined with the Totem bind for Blink shirt, you now have a way of using a full-round + teleport in a single round. Handy for solo work, and I'm sure you could make use of it in a group too. Too finicky to be worth it in a 'normal' combat though.

Feet Chakra binds:
Dread Carapace - If your DM has a habit of throwing battles at you that require mobility, this may be a good way to get it without sacrificing your probable charger combat style(you could easily get 220' charges with this up). The shaped effect is basically power attack, but with a bonus to bite attacks, so if you've got one, this is an even handier bind.
Landshark Boots - Short-range tremorsense. I can see it being useful in rare circumstances, but I doubt you'll ever bind it.
Totem Avatar - A bind that defends against combat maneuvers(to borrow a PF term). DMs don't like using them too much, but if yours does, this could be very, very strong, since its a +8 on most checks that you'd be worried about.
Urskan Greaves - Bonus damage on a charge. Fantastic meld for the most common type of Totemist.
Worg Pelt - Untyped bonus movement speed. Less than Dread, but consistent, making it a superior option in some cases. The shaped effect isn't combat related though, so meh.
Hand Chakra binds:
Blood Talons - Weapon Finesse with natural attacks. I suspect a lot of Totemist have Str >= Dex, but if you don't, even if just for a few levels, this can be a handy way to save a feat.
Kruthik Claws - Same as for Blood Talons, except with shaped effect that's more synergistic with a roguish playstyle(Hide + Move silently). I'm pleasently surprised that neither's outright superior, despite the redundancy.
Rage Claws - You're basically raging, except with no penalties. Designed explicitly to work with the shaped effect, with the exact problem that you don't want to plan on fighting while you're in the negatives. Still, can be useful, and is a nice power up for finishing off a fight that's apparently not going your way.
Sphinx Claws - Pounce with natural attacks. This is the ability everyone wishes about on other classes, and why so many people dip Barbarian with that ACF. Absolutely fantastic unless you've got pounce elsewhere. Ironically, this is one of the rare occasions where you'll want to be pouncing long before you get the ability to pounce.
Worg Pelt - Requires you to already have a bite attack, but if you do, free trips when you bite. Handy cause melee attacks get a bonus to hit when you trip, so bite early, and hope for it.
Arms Chakra binds:
Dread Carapace - Improved Critical. Meh, but useful I supposed. A 1/20 chance of being useful per attack, but if you're a natural attack build, that's 7+ attacks, so it'll probably add 1-2 crits per battle.
Girallon Arms - Rend is nice, but you'll probably never use it. I don't know of any way to Bind the same meld twice, and by the time you get this bind, you're probably already binding this to your Totem Chakra for the natural attacks. Although I suppose Landshark(totem chakra) + Girallon(arms chakra) would be useful if you're not getting any natural attacks from outside your class.
Kraken Mantle - Bonus on grapple checks with the ability to constrict. Untyped, so if you want to make a grappler build for stealth missions, this + Girallon makes you a fierce grappler. Well, assuming you have improved grapple somehow.
Lammasu Mantle[Good] - Your shaped bonus is now a 10' aura. The bonus only applied against [Evil], so keep that in mind.
Riding Bracers - A small flat bonus to damage and AC when mounted. You're probably never mounted, and the flat bonus is meh at most levels. At least its more notable than the Totem Bind.
Totem Avatar - If you're going grappling, this is the in-class method for getting Imp. Grapple. Like pounce, you can probably get it elsewhere easier, but its nice to know its in-class too.