Convincing a DM that Ulitharid should be allowed to be Gestalted <3.5>

[Tokuhara]

I, ever since I started playing d&d, have wanted to play an optimized Mind Flayer. Now, I opened my copy of Lords of Madness (just for fun) and opened right to the ulitharid entry. I asked my DM, and he said I could, but I'd have 19 monster levels...

I have been under the impression that monster classes are a gimp more than a buff to play in a semi-optimized party. Unless your party is a group of Samurai, Truenamers, and Monks, you will be overshadowed by the party. So here was my thought: Let Monster Classes Gestalt.

So here's my conundrum: Would it actually be Overpowered, and what evidence could I show him to prove that a Gestalt Ulitarid/Psionic Build wouldn't overshadow a normal party?

[Andreaz]

I, ever since I started playing d&d, have wanted to play an optimized Mind Flayer. Now, I opened my copy of Lords of Madness (just for fun) and opened right to the ulitharid entry. I asked my DM, and he said I could, but I'd have 19 monster levels...

I have been under the impression that monster classes are a gimp more than a buff to play in a semi-optimized party. Unless your party is a group of Samurai, Truenamers, and Monks, you will be overshadowed by the party. So here was my thought: Let Monster Classes Gestalt.

So here's my conundrum: Would it actually be Overpowered, and what evidence could I show him to prove that a Gestalt Ulitarid/Psionic Build wouldn't overshadow a normal party?
As far as I can tell, any gestalt is going to have more power than their equivalent single-classed builds. So an Ulitharid 19//Wiz 19 is still a wiz 19. Unless the racial class actually hampers your performance, it'll be more powerful than the class alone.

[Gorgondantess]

I, ever since I started playing d&d, have wanted to play an optimized Mind Flayer. Now, I opened my copy of Lords of Madness (just for fun) and opened right to the ulitharid entry. I asked my DM, and he said I could, but I'd have 19 monster levels...

I have been under the impression that monster classes are a gimp more than a buff to play in a semi-optimized party. Unless your party is a group of Samurai, Truenamers, and Monks, you will be overshadowed by the party. So here was my thought: Let Monster Classes Gestalt.

So here's my conundrum: Would it actually be Overpowered, and what evidence could I show him to prove that a Gestalt Ulitarid/Psionic Build wouldn't overshadow a normal party?

...What you're saying is that you should be allowed to gestalt a cool race with a normal class, in an otherwise ungestalted party?
Short answer: you shouldn't.
Long answer: What this will end up doing is you'll be just like the normal class you have on the other side of the gestalt, but flat out more powerful because you also have all the nifty perks of an ulitharid. On top of that, you could get your psion level to exceed your HD.
Self-plug answer: might I suggest improved monster classes? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9159107&postcount=1357)

[Tokuhara]

As far as I can tell, any gestalt is going to have more power than their equivalent single-classed builds. So an Ulitharid 19//Wiz 19 is still a wiz 19. Unless the racial class actually hampers your performance, it'll be more powerful than the class alone.

I have fewer HD, 7 HD-less levels, and am a "14th level psion", with normal illithid lovelies

[Tokuhara]

...What you're saying is that you should be allowed to gestalt a cool race with a normal class, in an otherwise ungestalted party?
Short answer: you shouldn't.
Long answer: What this will end up doing is you'll be just like the normal class you have on the other side of the gestalt, but flat out more powerful because you also have all the nifty perks of an ulitharid. On top of that, you could get your psion level to exceed your HD.
Self-plug answer: might I suggest improved monster classes? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9159107&postcount=1357)

That's how he said 19 levels. He has done it so I level up faster than the party, so my HD/CR match the Party's

[Hiro Protagonest]

So, you're basically asking for the equivalent of free gestalting with monk.

It'll be wayyy overpowered.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Just looking at raw stats, the Ulitharid gets Str +6, Dex +4, Con +6, Int +10, Wis +6, Cha +10, with Psion (Telepath) 13 manifesting, SR 27, Telepathy 200 ft. which may as well include Mindsight, and Mind Blast at will.

Let's say you get 19 monster levels for that; let's say you take something like Psion 5/ Metamind 10/ Psion Uncarnate 4 with that. Now you've got Psion 25 manifesting at level 19, with Metamind 10 for a 1/day unlimited powerpoint pool to go with the standard unlimited standard actions combo. Is that fair at all to the rest of the party?

Do you realize what you propose? What if someone else in the group wanted to play a Barbarian, but decided that instead of a Human Barbarian, he'd make a Sand Giant character and just take Barbarian levels along side its racial hit dice and level adjustment. He'd get Str +16, Dex +10, Con +10, Wis +6, Cha +2, +11 natural armor, large size with natural reach, a burrow speed.... for absolutely no drawback. Why wouldn't every character just use the biggest, baddest monster race that's available at the current level, if they can get just as many class levels as gestalt levels with it? You're trying to remove all the cost of playing monstrous races.

No, unless the rest of your party is also gestalt, then no, you should not be able to gestalt a monster race just because you want to play a character of that race in a standard party. I'd say your DM is nice reducing the Ulitharid to level 19, since its 12 HD and +9 LA would normally make it only playable at ECL 21.

[Tokuhara]

Just looking at raw stats, the Ulitharid gets Str +6, Dex +4, Con +6, Int +10, Wis +6, Cha +10, with Psion (Telepath) 13 manifesting, SR 27, Telepathy 200 ft. which may as well include Mindsight, and Mind Blast at will.

Let's say you get 19 monster levels for that; let's say you take something like Psion 5/ Metamind 10/ Psion Uncarnate 4 with that. Now you've got Psion 25 manifesting at level 19, with Metamind 10 for a 1/day unlimited powerpoint pool to go with the standard unlimited standard actions combo. Is that fair at all to the rest of the party?

Do you realize what you propose? What if someone else in the group wanted to play a Barbarian, but decided that instead of a Human Barbarian, he'd make a Sand Giant character and just take Barbarian levels along side its racial hit dice and level adjustment. He'd get Str +16, Dex +10, Con +10, Wis +6, Cha +2, +11 natural armor, large size with natural reach, a burrow speed.... for absolutely no drawback. Why wouldn't every character just use the biggest, baddest monster race that's available at the current level, if they can get just as many class levels as gestalt levels with it? You're trying to remove all the cost of playing monstrous races.

No, unless the rest of your party is also gestalt, then no, you should not be able to gestalt a monster race just because you want to play a character of that race in a standard party. I'd say your DM is nice reducing the Ulitharid to level 19, since its 12 HD and +9 LA would normally make it only playable at ECL 21.

I'd be an Ulitharid 5. The rest of the party is 5th level

[skycycle blues]

If one character is gestalting and the rest of the party isn't, then that character will be significantly more powerful than them unless the gestalt classes are so bad that gestalt doesn't make it good.

Psions are already good. Ulitharid seems to also be very strong. Combining the two would be a better Psion. This is unfair to anyone else in the party.

[Andreaz]

Again, in a gestalt the individual classes will always be "better" than the same classes not in a gestalt. So no. Whatever it is you gestalt in your class side will end up having more than that class alone.

[Tokuhara]

If one character is gestalting and the rest of the party isn't, then that character will be significantly more powerful than them unless the gestalt classes are so bad that gestalt doesn't make it good.

Psions are already good. Ulitharid seems to also be very strong. Combining the two would be a better Psion. This is unfair to anyone else in the party.

I play in a group that is generally VERY optimized (generally at least 1 Ubercharger, a Diplomancer, a God Wizard, and a Clericzilla) being 7 levels behind and lacking upper-tier Psionics seems to be a very large hinderince.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I play in a group that is generally VERY optimized (generally at least 1 Ubercharger, a Diplomancer, a God Wizard, and a Clericzilla) being 7 levels behind and lacking upper-tier Psionics seems to be a very large hinderince.

So, you'd be starting at Ulitharid 5 in a 5th level party. A Psion 5 is already a Tier 2 class, so your character would still have all the optimization tricks available to a Psion, but he would be better than just a typical Psion because he would get the Ulitharid benefits (ability score bonuses, d8 HP for those Aberration HD) at absolutely no drawback.

Why would anyone play a [PHB race] Psion if they could play a Gestalt Ulitharid Psion instead?! What you propose is not balanced, it is not fair to anyone else playing, and it should not be allowed. If you want to play a Mind Flayer character so bad, go Psion into Flayerspawn Psychic from Complete Psionic. You told your DM that you wanted to play an Ulitharid, he gave you some extremely gracious options, but you want more. Hopefully nothing is going to be able to convince him to let you gestalt this character in a non-gestalt game, and nobody with any concept of game balance is going to help you do it. If you don't think this character will be able to measure up in this game, then just save it for another time.

[Tokuhara]

So, you'd be starting at Ulitharid 5 in a 5th level party. A Psion 5 is already a Tier 2 class, so your character would still have all the optimization tricks available to a Psion, but he would be better than just a typical Psion because he would get the Ulitharid benefits (ability score bonuses, d8 HP for those Aberration HD) at absolutely no drawback.

Why would anyone play a [PHB race] Psion if they could play a Gestalt Ulitharid Psion instead?! What you propose is not balanced, it is not fair to anyone else playing, and it should not be allowed. If you want to play a Mind Flayer character so bad, go Psion into Flayerspawn Psychic from Complete Psionic. You told your DM that you wanted to play an Ulitharid, he gave you some extremely gracious options, but you want more. Hopefully nothing is going to be able to convince him to let you gestalt this character in a non-gestalt game, and nobody with any concept of game balance is going to help you do it. If you don't think this character will be able to measure up in this game, then just save it for another time.

I have postponed my lust for playing a Mind Flayer for over 6 years

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I have postponed my lust for playing a Mind Flayer for over 6 years

Mind Flayers are powerful monsters, but they do not make powerful PCs. It looks to me like your lust for playing a Mind Flayer includes a lust for making that character overwhelmingly powerful as well, which is not fair to the rest of your gaming group.

[Tokuhara]

Mind Flayers are powerful monsters, but they do not make powerful PCs. It looks to me like your lust for playing a Mind Flayer includes a lust for making that character overwhelmingly powerful as well, which is not fair to the rest of your gaming group.

Oh... I have what I think a Mind Flayer is (a brain-sucking spawn of Cthulu who can warp your mind into thinking you are a pretty balerina), and what they are...

[MesiDoomstalker]

Or, better yet, create a Savage Species progression for it and run that. Or use Savage Species RHD/LA 0 for stock Mind Flayer and progress as a regular old Psion from there. Much, much, much, much more balanced than gestalting monster class with regular class in a non-gestalt class.

[Tokuhara]

Or, better yet, create a Savage Species progression for it and run that. Or use Savage Species RHD/LA 0 for stock Mind Flayer and progress as a regular old Psion from there. Much, much, much, much more balanced than gestalting monster class with regular class in a non-gestalt class.

So being a Mind Flayer isn't awesome?

[Metahuman1]

My suggestions are to either wait till your group plays a Regular Gestalt game and then use the monster progression on one side, or Gestalt it with a Teir five or lower class. Truenamer, Warrior, Expert, Monk, Fighter, Samurai, Adept, SoulKnife, Lurk, pick a weak class. You've got Manifester ability's, those are as good as caster levels. Trust me, long as you've got that, your gonna be able to keep pace.

[MesiDoomstalker]

So being a Mind Flayer isn't awesome?

No more awesome than human. Which is what your asking. To be a Mind Flayer in full awesomeness for the cost of being human.

[Tokuhara]

My suggestions are to either wait till your group plays a Regular Gestalt game and then use the monster progression on one side, or Gestalt it with a Teir five or lower class. Truenamer, Warrior, Expert, Monk, Fighter, Samurai, Adept, SoulKnife, Lurk, pick a weak class. You've got Manifester ability's, those are as good as caster levels. Trust me, long as you've got that, your gonna be able to keep pace.

HMMM.... Ulitharid//Soulknife??? Scary, Minus my group plays with a Full BAB Heavy-Armor Soulknife (essentially, fighter with a mind blade)

Edit: And Mesi, I eat human brains.

Update: DM is saying that I may be advancing by my CR instead of class levels. So when the Party is 12th level, I'll be 19th.

[TriForce]

no offence, but judging from your post, you dont want to hear the opinion of the other forumgoers, you just want to hear a excuse to play your gestalt.

people here are all ( as far as i can see ) agreeing it would be terribly unfair and way overpowered compared to the rest of your party, yet you seem to be trying to convince them that its not. your basic question was "would this be fair?" and it seems that people are agreeing with your DM

[Tokuhara]

no offence, but judging from your post, you dont want to hear the opinion of the other forumgoers, you just want to hear a excuse to play your gestalt.

people here are all ( as far as i can see ) agreeing it would be terribly unfair and way overpowered compared to the rest of your party, yet you seem to be trying to convince them that its not. your basic question was "would this be fair?" and it seems that people are agreeing with your DM

Oh... So what are the alternatives, because I adore Mind Flayers (especially the noble ones)

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Update: DM is saying that I may be advancing by my CR instead of class levels. So when the Party is 12th level, I'll be 19th.

This is unfair to the rest of the party, as monsters usually have abilities making them stronger than PCs of their CR. In general, however, the listed level adjustment is a bit to much.

If I recall my mind flayer correctly, it's CR 7 with a +7LA and 7 HD, making it effectively a level 14 character. That's a bit high, but I'd probably allow a Mind Flayer in a level 10 or 11 game, giving it an effective LA of +3 or +4 instead of +7. You'd probably end up about in line with the other PCs.

[Tokuhara]

~Want to have this thread closed~

I guess I can never obtain my dream of epic mind flayer-dom

I'm on plan Alpha (gone through the entire alphabet of Concepts on my own)

[Metahuman1]

Again, Just play it in a regular Gestalt game and put Druid, Cleric, Or Wizard on the other side, you'll be fine.

[ericgrau]

Ask the DM to reduce the LA to match the party's optimization level. Done.

I did a few tests and monster races also hold up to fighter/barbarian/paladins that only have access to core feats and items too, btw. But any form of power creep - better feats, etc. - ruins that and you need to lower the LA. Figure reasonably how much an optimized level is worth compared to an unoptimized one when you ask for the LA reduction. If you say "Gimme a gestalt so I can have all the LA & HD for free, kk thx" your DM will probably just ignore you and tell you to play something else.

If you want to play a caster or psion with LA that gets more complicated and requires homebrew. Assuming nothing on the Ulitarid helps psionic powers at all, I might put you 2 levels behind on both psion and Ulitarid. The more they help each other the more I'd increase that to something higher than 2.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

~Want to have this thread closed~

I guess I can never obtain my dream of epic mind flayer-dom

I'm on plan Alpha (gone through the entire alphabet of Concepts on my own)

...you are aware that other posters here have proposed a number of possible ways that you CAN play a mind-flayer, correct? :smallconfused:

[CTrees]

A couple reasonable suggestions have already been advanced (including simply actually playing gestalt)

1) Is LA buyoff even possible for a LA that high?

2) Aren't there some rules for adding classes unrelated to a monster's strengths, at lower CR bumps? Like making a cloud giant wizard, or a mindflayer monk? See if you can work out something like that.

3) See if people are up for a monstrous campaign. If everyone's on a chassis like that, it will be (somewhat) balanced, and could be a fun, shorter campaign. Maybe something starting from Sigil?

4) Try a more complicated XP setup, something like what I remember 2nd Ed. multiclassing to be like (it's been awhile, so this is purely how I remember it, and likely not entirely accurate). Gestalt, but require the experience to level up both sides. That is, start out with a progression for, say, ulitharid1//psion1. Divide your experience evenly across both sides. So, if it takes 1k xp to get to level two... when the party hits 1k, everyone but you will be level two, while you'll be halfway to level two on both sides. You'll then hit ulitharid2//psion2 when the rest of the party is at 2k xp, nearly level three. Because of the way the xp curve works, you'll be behind, but not THAT far behind. On PF's advancement (the only XP chart I have handy atm), you'd be two levels back at twentieth... which might not be enough of a penalty, but you're still weaker than a full gestalt. Maybe work in some more penalties, somehow, I don't know. It's the start of an idea, anyway.

[docnessuno]

Short answer: it would be unfair and pretty op.

Long answer:
If you really feel the urge to play a mindflayer character, look for a gestalt campaing (one that uses that rule from the beginning) that allows a monstuous class on one side of the gestalt. Ask your DM for a savage-species like monster progression and have fun.

[Psyren]

Monster gestalt is immensely fun, especially when your DM has your Team Evil take on waves of hapless adventurers.

[Flickerdart]

A couple reasonable suggestions have already been advanced (including simply actually playing gestalt)

1) Is LA buyoff even possible for a LA that high?
Nope: Only LA3 or lower can be completely bought off pre-epic, and LA4 can only have one point bought off.



2) Aren't there some rules for adding classes unrelated to a monster's strengths, at lower CR bumps? Like making a cloud giant wizard, or a mindflayer monk? See if you can work out something like that.
Unassociated levels are laughably unbalanced.

[Morphic tide]

My thoughts:
Fluff wise, an Ulitharid takes time to grow from a normal Illithid. So, you could have set up so that you gain your Ulitharid abilities as you level/eat brains. In the mean time, you are a bigger, meaner Illitid with class levels. This is less rediculess than much of anything else you may face with the setup you are looking for. Instead of gestalting it, have it be a scaling thing, like 2 SR every level, up the size category at level 10, and strip some of the Psion stuff to show that you are doing your own thing instead of the Psion stuff a normal Ulitharid would. I like the idea of replacing racial HD with class levels, myself.

[ThisIsZen]

If you and your party are willing to work with it, there's always the option of devising a "PC <monster> race" which has reduced/limited versions of the base creature's abilities to bring it in line with the party. You could still get a lot of the flavor of playing a mind flayer, provided you're willing to give up some of the mechanics.

I do agree though that asking to gestalt a monster class with a player class, particularly a powerful player class, in a non-gestalt game where the other players wouldn't have a similar option is just plain unfair. The honest answer if you're not willing to deviate from Ulitharid itself is that this character may not fit into that campaign, and you may have to wait a while longer to play your dream character.

But I would honestly suggest that you look into creating a player-character friendly race based on the Illithids that retains all the iconic notes (brain-eating, tentacle face, maybe certain mental powers) while sitting more in line with PC race powers. This way you'd still get to play an Illithid of some description, without having to grapple with the frankly annoying LA/ECL/etc. systems to try and force a square peg into a round hole.

EDIT: Oh buggery, as the post below me points out about the post above me. Well, this was a waste of thoughts.

[zergling.exe]

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