Ways to Counter Mindsight

[JKTrickster]

How can one counter the Mindsight feat? Assuming a Wizard dipped into Mindbender and then used their 6th level feat for Mindsight, how would you avoid his/her detection abilities?

Are there any items/feats/skills/spells that can circumvent Mindsight? Assume from an ECL 6 perspective please.

[Flickerdart]

One could argue that the Slayer's Cerebral Blind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/slayer.htm#cerebralBlind) does this. It is pretty much the only thing that does; the case for anything else is extremely poor.

[JaronK]

First of all, Lords of Madness (the book it comes from) implies in the Illithid section that undead are immune to it, when they state that Illithids hate undead because (among other things) their psionic detection methods don't find them. This suggests that immunity to mind effecting protects you. This may be RAI... but note that by RAW, immunity to mind affecting doesn't protect you. So, that's something. But if the DM allows it, then Necropolitans could be immune.

There's a PrC in Fiendish Codex that makes telepathic static. This might also help, creating a blind spot in Mindsight's detection area that would hide a whole party.

And of course anything mindless (like zombies, skeletons, and golems) automatically bypasses it. So do enemies that just stay out of the 100 foot range (many archers, long range casters, etc).

But other that that... it's pretty darn tough to get around. Really the solution is not to get in range.

JaronK

[Elric VIII]

Self-Lobotomy.



What are the circumstances of the mindsight you are trying to avoid?

Are you a DM designing encounters to challenge a Wizard player?

Are you a player trying to get through a challenge the DM has set up with a mindsight Wizard?

Or are you trying to off an uppity fellow player that has mindsight?

[Toliudar]

Does your version of telepathy require line of effect? If so, full cover will remove you from mindsight.

[JaronK]

RAW, telepathy ignores line of effect. But it would make sense for it to be blocked by the same things that block many divinations, such as lead or a foot of stone.

One option is to hide among others of the same type and int score. Hiding the Barbarian amongst a bunch of stupid humanoids, for example.

JaronK

[Psyren]

One option is to hide among others of the same type and int score. Hiding the Barbarian amongst a bunch of stupid humanoids, for example.

Hurr hurr, ICWYDT :smalltongue:

[Anthrowhale]

One could argue that the Slayer's Cerebral Blind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/slayer.htm#cerebralBlind) does this. It is pretty much the only thing that does; the case for anything else is extremely poor.

As per the other thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=223694&page=6), Antimagic field on the sensor should work. That's a specialty tactic, because you must get very close without being observed. It makes Silent Antimagic Ray by a caster of level 32 worth considering.

[Flickerdart]

There's a PrC in Fiendish Codex that makes telepathic static. This might also help, creating a blind spot in Mindsight's detection area that would hide a whole party.
Hellbreaker doesn't do any of that. It just blocks the telepathy of anyone within 20ft.

As per the other thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=223694&page=6), Antimagic field on the sensor should work. That's a specialty tactic, because you must get very close without being observed. It makes Silent Antimagic Ray by a caster of level 32 worth considering.
As per that same thread, I've specified why that doesn't actually work.

[Toliudar]

RAW, telepathy ignores line of effect. But it would make sense for it to be blocked by the same things that block many divinations, such as lead or a foot of stone.

One option is to hide among others of the same type and int score. Hiding the Barbarian amongst a bunch of stupid humanoids, for example.

JaronK

I'm not doubting that that's true, but would love to have the source showing that telepathy ignores line of effect. Can you help?

[Waker]

Cerebrex (Dragon 317, Dragon Compendium) gets telepathic immunity at lvl 5. Sadly the earliest you could do this lvl 10.

[Flickerdart]

Cerebrex (Dragon 317, Dragon Compendium) gets telepathic immunity at lvl 5. Sadly the earliest you could do this lvl 10.
Mindsight is not a form of telepathy. It is a detection ability similar to blindsense.

[Waker]

Mindsight is not a form of telepathy. It is a detection ability similar to blindsense.
While it does function similarly to Blindsense it still is just an extension of Telepathy.

Normal: Telepathy offers no special ability to sense other
minds. The creature has to know that a being is there to communicate
with it telepathically
If you are somehow immune to Telepathy you should be immune to Mindsight.

[Flickerdart]

While it does function similarly to Blindsense it still is just an extension of Telepathy.
How do you figure? If you read the feat you'll see that its only connection to Telepathy is that it shares the range.

[Hirax]

Slayer6 does not grant immunity to mindsight unless you also think that mind blank does. It's fairly obvious that slayer6 and slayer 9 are supposed to give a slayer continuous mind blank, they just broke it up incrementally. They way the 6th level ability is worded, you could make an argument that it also foils regular eyesight, which is certainly another device that reveals location.


Telepathic Immunity (Su): A Cerebrex of 5th level is immune to all forms of telepathy or mind reading. She may suppress and reactivate this immunity at will, as a free action.

Debatable. I'd rule yes in a game regardless of a RAW interpretation just for balance. edit: when I say balance, not just because mindsight is powerful, but because cerebrex is a half caster progression class that loses CL on odd levels, meaning you need to dump 3 levels of spell progression if you want the ability.

Superior invisibility does the trick, in my opinion, due to the following part:


...concealing the subject from all senses except touch.

The problem, of course, is that the rest of the spell text confuses the issue, and forces you to make an argument that the lists of things it blocks wasn't meant to be exhaustive.

[Waker]

How do you figure? If you read the feat you'll see that its only connection to Telepathy is that it shares the range.
Well, the fact that Telepathy is the requirement, the range is the same as that of telepathy and the second part that I quoted above talking about how Telepathy doesn't allow you to sense other minds. Not to mention the obvious RAI from the whole bit.

[JaronK]

I'm not doubting that that's true, but would love to have the source showing that telepathy ignores line of effect. Can you help?

Line of Effect simply never says it effects telepathy, and nothing in game naturally blocks it (other than rare magic and PC effects). Basically, the default rule is you can telepathically talk to anyone within range... no rule counteracts this.

It's the same reason the Line of Effect rules don't necessarily block hearing... you can hear through a big sheet of paper just fine, because no rule says otherwise... even though you can't see through it (if it's dark paper, I guess) and line of effect is blocked.

JaronK

[Flickerdart]

Well, the fact that Telepathy is the requirement, the range is the same as that of telepathy and the second part that I quoted above talking about how Telepathy doesn't allow you to sense other minds. Not to mention the obvious RAI from the whole bit.
Rapid Shot is a prerequisite for Manyshot. Their range is the same too - the range of your bow. However, Manyshot is not reliant on Rapid Shot in any way. Your logic does not follow.

[Toliudar]

Line of Effect simply never says it effects telepathy, and nothing in game naturally blocks it (other than rare magic and PC effects). Basically, the default rule is you can telepathically talk to anyone within range... no rule counteracts this.

It's the same reason the Line of Effect rules don't necessarily block hearing... you can hear through a big sheet of paper just fine, because no rule says otherwise... even though you can't see through it (if it's dark paper, I guess) and line of effect is blocked.

JaronK

Marvellous - thanks! Although that would seem to apply to scent as well. Some interesting possibilities there - being able to smell through a wall.

[Waker]

Rapid Shot is a prerequisite for Manyshot. Their range is the same too - the range of your bow. However, Manyshot is not reliant on Rapid Shot in any way. Your logic does not follow.
Are you actually trying to argue that Mindsight has nothing to do with Telepathy aside from it being a requirement and your argument to counter me is talking about archery? I'll reply but I'm gonna be half-hearted about it.
Rapid Shot is indeed a requirement for Manyshot, you know what else is a requirement to use either of those feats though? A ranged attack.
Mindsight repeatedly makes mention of Telepathy in the flavor text
innate telepathic ability, benefits
within range of its telepathy. and normal section. The normal section specifically notes what Telepathy normally can't do. Your argument that it's just a new kind of Blindsense is mentioned once. Blindsense is mentioned most likely to give the players a concept they are familiar with.

[The_Snark]

On page 78 of Lords of Madness, there is a list of effects and how they interact with the elder brain's ability to detect creatures through telepathy. In summary: Null psionic field will prevent the elder brain from detecting minds within. Assuming that psionics-magic transparency is in effect, so will antimagic field.
Mind blank prevents detection.
Nondetection can prevent detection, although there is a caster level check involved; in this case, the CL of the elder brain is equal to HD.
Suspend life prevents detection, since the elder brain cannot detect corpses.
Defenses that specifically protect against scrying, mind-reading, clairsentience and divination do not work (which is inconsistent with the ruling on nondetection, but I'm just telling you what the book says).

RAW, none of this is relevant to Mindsight at all. However, the elder brain's telepathic awareness is all but identical to Mindsight, and I think it would be reasonable for a DM to houserule that the same defenses apply.

[Eldan]

Actually, from reading it, I think Cloud Mind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/cloudMind.htm) should work:


First, you are invisible and inaudible to the creature. It cannot even detect your presence by means of blindsense, blindsight, scent, or tremorsense. It cannot pinpoint your location by any means.

Second, the subject remains unaware of your actions, provided you do not make any attacks or cause any obvious or directly threatening changes in the subject’s environment. If you attack the subject creature, the effect ends.

The disadvantage being, of course, that you have to get in close range first, and that the creature has to fail a save.

[Viktyr Gehrig]

You guys are overthinking this. Darkstalker.

[JaronK]

Marvellous - thanks! Although that would seem to apply to scent as well. Some interesting possibilities there - being able to smell through a wall.

When the rules don't cover something, real world rules apply. So, scent through walls would apply as it does in the real world (as such, the permeability of the wall would be the real question... scent wouldn't go through a solid stone wall, but it would easily get through a looser log cabin wall). We don't have those rules for telepathy though, due to the lack of real world telepathy.

@Viktyr: Darkstalker only counters specific senses (Blindsight, Blindsense, Scent, Tremorsense). It has no effect here, sadly. And it was printed in the same book, so this is unlikely to be an oversight.

@The_Snark: I'd agree with that from a RAI perspective. Not RAW, but seems reasonable. Also, the nondetection thing is completely arbitrary, but there you go.

JaronK

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

Flickerdart is both right and wrong because the text is not fully written out. Instead more information is attempted to be crammed into a smaller amount of space resulting in curmudgeon pointing out the 'normal:' text.

If this text is part of the rules, then where telepathy is impeded mindsight is also impeded (but as he rightly pointed out) would still continue to that telepathy's full range. If that part is not part of the rules flickerdart is completely right and ... nothing can stop mindsight.


On page 78 of Lords of Madness, there is a list of effects and how they interact with the elder brain's ability to detect creatures through telepathy. In summary: Null psionic field will prevent the elder brain from detecting minds within. Assuming that psionics-magic transparency is in effect, so will antimagic field.
Mind blank prevents detection.
Nondetection can prevent detection, although there is a caster level check involved; in this case, the CL of the elder brain is equal to HD.
Suspend life prevents detection, since the elder brain cannot detect corpses.
Defenses that specifically protect against scrying, mind-reading, clairsentience and divination do not work (which is inconsistent with the ruling on nondetection, but I'm just telling you what the book says).

RAW, none of this is relevant to Mindsight at all. However, the elder brain's telepathic awareness is all but identical to Mindsight, and I think it would be reasonable for a DM to houserule that the same defenses apply.I find it telling that the same book chose not to make use of this feat. A polymorphed spellweaver would do much better.


Rapid Shot is a prerequisite for Manyshot. Their range is the same too - the range of your bow. However, Manyshot is not reliant on Rapid Shot in any way. Your logic does not follow.How do you know? It seems to me that any real practical case that would block the first would block the second aside from their trivial differences in actions/arrows at hand/et

[Anthrowhale]

As per that same thread, I've specified why that doesn't actually work.

I misinterpreted what you said then---I thought the claim was that mindsight is an Ex ability that goes to telepathy range irrespective of obstacles like AMF that block telepathy. This appears correct, RAW.

But while mindsight may be Ex, it has a prerequisite which is Su. If a caster level 32 AM-ray hit the mindsight target from range 105', the prerequisite would no longer be satisfied, which knocks out the mindsight feat. This also appears correct by RAW.

An alternative version of this logic is: if a fighter takes strength damage putting their strength below 13, they can no long power attack.

[Flickerdart]

How do you know? It seems to me that any real practical case that would block the first would block the second aside from their trivial differences in actions/arrows at hand/et
When you are Slowed, you cannot use Rapid Shot, but you can use Manyshot.

[Curmudgeon]

(Picking up this discussion from another thread.)

If you read the feat you'll see that its only connection to Telepathy is that it shares the range.
It shares more than the range. Here's what the feat says:
The header:
A creature that has this feat possesses innate telepathic ability that allows it to precisely pinpoint other thinking beings within range of its telepathy. ... An area that you can't reach with your telepathy isn't within range of your Mindsight.


The Benefit section:
Benefit: A creature that has this feat can detect and pinpoint beings that are not mindless (anything with an Intelligence score of 1 or higher) within range of its telepathy. ... There's still no range for Mindsight that's distinct from the range of telepathy.


The Normal section:
Normal: Telepathy offers no special ability to sense other minds. The creature has to know that a being is there ... Because the normal ability of telepathy provides a limitation which the feat overcomes, what you get with Mindsight is a special ability of telepathy, and so where your telepathy operates (or not) still determines where the feat operates. No telepathy = no Mindsight.

[Hirax]

I'm not very keen on AMF and similar being a good counter to mindsight for different reasons. The sensory perception granted by mindsight is much the same as eyesight in how it operates, per the text. If you saw (with regular eyesight) a 20' diameter area of magical darkness walking around, would you be suspicious? To me, walking around with an AMF is an equivalent action against someone with mindsight. You (if you had mindsight) would notice a 20' bubble that shuts off your eyesight as much as you'd notice a 20' bubble that shut off mindsight, in my opinion. You wouldn't know anything about the contents, of course, but you'd still notice the bubble of darkness or antimagic.

[The_Snark]

I'm not inclined to agree. Mindsight is not as comprehensive as real sight; it doesn't let you perceive areas, it just pinpoints thinking beings. To extend your analogy, darkness is the natural state of things. The entire world is dark, except for thinking creatures, which register as little pinpoints of light. A ten-foot bubble without any thinking creatures in it isn't inherently unusual, any more than a patch of darkness in a dark cave would be.

Now, if you sense a creature suddenly winking out on your mindsight, or if you see a person but can't sense them with their thoughts, then you'd know something's up. But I don't think the field alone would register.

[Hirax]

I'm not inclined to agree. Mindsight is not as comprehensive as real sight; it doesn't let you perceive areas, it just pinpoints thinking beings. To extend your analogy, darkness is the natural state of things. The entire world is dark, except for thinking creatures, which register as little pinpoints of light. A ten-foot bubble without any thinking creatures in it isn't inherently unusual, any more than a patch of darkness in a dark cave would be.

Now, if you sense a creature suddenly winking out on your mindsight, or if you see a person but can't sense them with their thoughts, then you'd know something's up. But I don't think the field alone would register.

Where I disagree is that to me, mindsight is a 100' torch in that darkness. I fully concede that this is 100% subjective, but the void created by the rules makes some imagineering necessary.

[Curmudgeon]

Where I disagree is that to me, mindsight is a 100' torch in that darkness. I fully concede that this is 100% subjective ...
I don't see Mindsight as functioning like a torch at all. If there's you, a Vampire, and hundreds of Skeletons and Zombies in a dark area, you'll see the Vampire, and will be completely blind to the Skeletons and Zombies all around you. Torches don't work anything like that.

[Hirax]

In such an abstract discussion, I don't see a problem with my use of the word torch. We're all forced to use language that's typically associated with vision when discussing mindsight, because the lack of real world mindsight has dealt us a hand with little applicable language and concepts with which to discuss it.

Also, what Snark described sounds more like how lifesense works.

[JKTrickster]

Hmm that's interesting!

I'm playing in a Capture The Flag game and I have Mindbender up. I figured that it would be a good defense but at the same time, the other team is preparing for it. I wanted to have an idea of what I'm could possibly go up against.

The entire challenge is at 6th level but I wasn't sure if there were any tricks one could pull.

[Narsis]

Hmm that's interesting!

I'm playing in a Capture The Flag game and I have Mindbender up. I figured that it would be a good defense but at the same time, the other team is preparing for it. I wanted to have an idea of what I'm could possibly go up against.

The entire challenge is at 6th level but I wasn't sure if there were any tricks one could pull.

honestly it's all going to come down to the DM interpretation of the feat and various abilities. it may be worth asking him/pointing him to this thread.

[Hirax]

The crucial thing is that in an actual game it's very possible that a DM won't use RAW. For instance, I don't believe mind blank stops mindsight by RAW, but every game I've ever played in that's had mindsight, mind blank has been allowed to foil it. Which is fine with me.

[The_Snark]

Ah, well, assuming the other team is the same level as you, you're pretty safe. Mind Blank and Antimagic Field are both well out of reach. I guess they might try Nondetection, if the DM rules that it works, but it'll take up one of their highest-level spell slots and you have a chance of piercing it anyway.

They could use nonintelligent undead minions, but those will have trouble employing stealth. I suppose they might be able to ambush you under the right circumstances, but they're not going to be sneaking past you to snatch the flag.


In such an abstract discussion, I don't see a problem with my use of the word torch. We're all forced to use language that's typically associated with vision when discussing mindsight, because the lack of real world mindsight has dealt us a hand with little applicable language and concepts with which to discuss it.

Also, what Snark described sounds more like how lifesense works.

No, lifesense is explicitly visual and involves real light—you could actually read by the light of your party members. Mindsight provides a new sense entirely, and aside from the name there's nothing indicating that it's anything like vision. You could just as easily compare it to hearing—and you wouldn't necessarily be able to pick out a bubble of magical silence, unless you saw something that should be making noise but wasn't (e.g. someone clapping). If you compare it to smell, you wouldn't necessarily notice a small area with no odor. If you compare it to touch, you could argue that an antimagic zone is like a numb patch or a physical barrier preventing you from reaching whatever's inside, or you could argue that it just keeps you from feeling whatever's in the zone.

So yeah, it's up to interpretation. But I am dubious about an interpretation that gives it extra utility, even if the ability to detect antimagic is highly situational. The feat is already good enough that everybody who qualifies takes it.

[Hirax]

That's not what I meant at all with the lifesense comparison. I guess it's pointless to argue about though, since there's no actual game definition of it. To try and spell out my sense of it more, I think I'm arguing it's like vision, and you're arguing it's like hearing. Namely, you wouldn't notice a deaf spot any more than you'd notice a mindsight void.

[Viktyr Gehrig]

@Viktyr: Darkstalker only counters specific senses (Blindsight, Blindsense, Scent, Tremorsense). It has no effect here, sadly. And it was printed in the same book, so this is unlikely to be an oversight.

I'm thinking that the language in Mindsight that it "functions much like blindsense" means that Darkstalker would apply.

It makes sense that a sufficiently stealthy person could hide from blindsight, blindsense, and tremorsense through some heightened degree of physical self control. This explanation simply doesn't work for how Darkstalker obscures you from scent-- which, in real life, requires specialty equipment and/or weeks of preparation.

If this one feat can somehow negate both all vibrations and all chemical traces exuded by the character and his equipment, it follows that it is some kind of supernatural obfuscation and it isn't unreasonable to believe that this would include the ability to mask one's telepathic vibrations.

Combined with the language in Mindsight, I believe that this is both RAI and RAW.

[Hirax]

Not even close to RAW. RAI is debatable. If defeating mindsight is RAI for darkstalker, that's a pretty stupid oversight on behalf of the author and editors, because as pointed out they're in the same book.

[The_Snark]

Combined with the language in Mindsight, I believe that this is both RAI and RAW.

It is not RAW. Darkstalker has a very specific list of special senses that it protects against, and Mindsight isn't on it. Simple as that. Mindsight works similarly to blindsense, but this does not mean that Mindsight actually is a form of blindsense. The comparison is there to clarify that the sense pinpoints location without negating concealment.

RAI, well, that's up for debate. Darkstalker's fluff merely says "you have learned how to stalk and surprise creatures whose senses are very different from those of a humanoid", and Mindsight certainly qualifies. Personally, I strongly dislike the idea that Darkstalker is a supernatural ability; to me, a character with that feat learns to avoid being detected by scent by breathing lightly, being aware of air currents and trying to stay upwind, and taking steps to smell like something natural for the environment. This might not be totally realistic, but hey, it's a heroic fantasy game. And Darkstalker doesn't make you completely undetectable—it just means they have to roll to smell you.

On the other hand, you could justify the ability to hide from Mindsight without making it supernatural. It might be a trick of mental discipline, akin to the physical discipline that it takes to avoid blindsight: you learn to keep your thoughts tightly shielded, or empty your mind via meditation, or some other technique that can keep you from showing up on passive thought-radar like Mindsight.

But you'll need your DM to agree for this to work.

[Eld83]

Well, it's way out of the pricing range, but Third Eye Conceal from Magic Item Compendium page 141 should do the trick.
Also, I agree that Darkstalker would be an excellent option.

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

AMF would work but its heavy-handed and doesn't cover (Ex) telepathy. I am blanking on an example


When you are Slowed, you cannot use Rapid Shot, but you can use Manyshot.
aside from their trivial differences in action

darkstalker is a n

[Curmudgeon]

AMF would work but its heavy-handed and doesn't cover (Ex) telepathy. I am blanking on an example
Are you sure there are examples? The Glossary entry (Monster Manual, page 316) has it specified as "Telepathy (Su)".

[Psyren]

Are you sure there are examples? The Glossary entry (Monster Manual, page 316) has it specified as "Telepathy (Su)".

Meenlock, MM2 pg. 147

[Hirax]

How fitting, since MM2 also gives us a creature with 1,000 mile telepathy, albeit (SU). That book is definitely a low point in editing.

[Curmudgeon]

Meenlock, MM2 pg. 147
Sorry, but that's been revised in 3.5 rules. From the introduction of FREE D&D® V.3.5 ACCESSORY UPDATE Monster Manual II:
In addition to the information below, remember the following general rule: If a monster has a common special attack, special quality, or subtype, refer to the glossary in the revised Monster Manual instead of the monster’s entry in its original sourcebook. So we turn instead to the telepathy special quality Glossary entry I noted in my previous post.