OOTS #826 - The Discussion Thread [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

pendell

2012-01-10, 10:27 AM

Wooot! New update!

I don't believe it. I predicted that the resistance had been infiltrated and lo! It is so. That's how Redcloak knew what was going on. I can't believe I actually outguessed Rich Burlew for once. That almost never happens.

Hmm .. comment.

Maybe no one else sees this way, but I could do without seeing implosion on-panel again. To my mind, it exceeds PG-13 in terms of violence, being gratuitous and grotesque.

Of course it IS a viable spell and a powerful one. It is reasonable and appropriate for Redcloak to use it. I'd just prefer not to see the effects on camera. I have an imagination, I don't need to see it.

ETA: Implosion is 9th level, so does that mean Redcloak is epic level now?

E AGAIN to add: Wait, what? I thought Jirix was running the city now as the Prime Minister of Gobbotopia? Maybe that's why there are no goblins in Redcloak's forces -- Redcloak has no goblinoids under his command. He's on detached duty with Xykon, but is still kept "in the loop" by the intelligence community. Naturally the phylactery's location would be FLASH directly to him, and he would intervene immediately without stopping to get Jirix's help first.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Gift Jeraff

2012-01-10, 10:28 AM

The_Ferg

2012-01-10, 10:29 AM

And by the way, does anyone have an idea what the big devil in the last 3 panels is? It looks... kind of big. And just a little scary.

I get the very scary feeling that it's a balor.

blazingshadow

2012-01-10, 10:34 AM

bye bye niu and eyepatch girl

Dusk Eclipse

2012-01-10, 10:34 AM

I think the big devil in the last panels is a Cornugon (Horned Devil)
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG52.jpg

Big guy in the middle. And yes they are Devils because the Dark One and Redcloak are LE, so no Demons for them!

Did Niu die in the 7th Panel? :smalleek:

Edit: Pemdell, you only need to be level 17 to get 9th level spells, Epic levels start at 21 and Epic Magic is brooooken!!! Think Cloister for the effects Epic Magic can have (and personally I think Cloister is one of the most balanced spells)

Onyavar

2012-01-10, 10:35 AM

Implosion - Redcloak is now capable of level 9 spells, meaning he's level 17.

Is that Niu dead over there? Will at least Thanh survive? :smallfrown:

Lord Raziere

2012-01-10, 10:37 AM

Y'know whats really sad though?

the hobgoblin that got killed when he was thrown off a building…he was probably sent into the cells intentionally. as a decoy for the humans to mistake for a spy. meanwhile they sent in their polymorphed hobgoblin to gain their trust...:smallfrown:

MesiDoomstalker

2012-01-10, 10:37 AM

At first I was like, "YES, TAKE THAT, DAMN COMMANDER!" but then that Resistance guy died and I kinda liked him.

EDIT: Looking back at #824, the spy isn't shown successfully hitting any hobgoblin. Nice touch. :smallwink:

Actually, the spy is the one who killed the Hobby with the phylactery. Hes the one with the crossbow and theres a big crossbow bolt in the Hobby's head.

Draconi Redfir

2012-01-10, 10:38 AM

and now the age-old question of "what was redcloak talking too" has been awnsered!

Edit: And no that is not dead niu, the hair is different.

t209

2012-01-10, 10:38 AM

No this isn't happening! This shouldn't end like this! I just wanted to see if they would be carted off for execution with other rebels from regions (like Skyrim). Now my Azure City Liberation idea have been scratched.

Goosefarble

2012-01-10, 10:38 AM

At first I was like, "YES, TAKE THAT, DAMN COMMANDER!" but then that Resistance guy died and I kinda liked him.

EDIT: Looking back at #824, the spy isn't shown successfully hitting any hobgoblin. Nice touch. :smallwink:

Really? So that hobgoblin in panel #6 just came down with a mysterious case of eye-bolt?

Gift Jeraff

2012-01-10, 10:39 AM

Actually, the spy is the one who killed the Hobby with the phylactery. Hes the one with the crossbow and theres a big crossbow bolt in the Hobby's head.Nope, that's the elven Lieutenant. Look at the arrow. EDIT: Ah, but he did hit the cleric.

Dusk Eclipse

2012-01-10, 10:40 AM

Actually, the spy is the one who killed the Hobby with the phylactery. Hes the one with the crossbow and theres a big crossbow bolt in the Hobby's head.

No it was the elf chick Ranger, the polymorphed hob uses bolts with grey or blue feathers and the arrow in the Phylactery Hob is red.

Edit: Swordsage'd

HalfTangible

2012-01-10, 10:40 AM

.... Heh heh... 'reading'. :smallbiggrin:

Heksefatter

2012-01-10, 10:42 AM

This is how I like Team Evil - cunning, competent and a real threat. That's how you make good stories.

Orzel

2012-01-10, 10:43 AM

See.

This is why you don't join outnumbered and outmatched resistances.

Palthera

2012-01-10, 10:44 AM

On the upside, I don't think the dead fighter girl with black hair is Niu, the hair is too short... and I don't see a dead Thahn either... though I'm not really holding much hope for either of them... :smallfrown: I like good characters done well and they're both so likeable.

Kato

2012-01-10, 10:49 AM

.... Well, that didn't go as planned. And here I thought they would be more careful who they have join their ranks...

The Pilgrim

2012-01-10, 10:49 AM

Wow, a grotesque spell and two panels for the death scene of the Elf Commander, for extended joy.

Thank you very mucho, Giant. :smallbiggrin:

t209

2012-01-10, 10:49 AM

This strip and the previous strip look grim after you aid the resistance in skyrim. This happened to me like after I played Stormcloak and liberating Skyrim.

random_guy

2012-01-10, 10:50 AM

Hasn't Hinjo been keeping in touch with Thanh? He can't contact them because of the cloister spell, but Thanh can still have his casters use sending spells to contact Hinjo.

My guess is:
Hinjo shows up with reinforcements to save the remaining resistance members. That, or he doesn't receive a sending spell from Thanh for an extended period of time, and he can guess what happened.

SlyJohnny

2012-01-10, 10:51 AM

I'm surprise Thanh called the retreat while the elf made a futile attack.

Looks like even if any of the resistance survive, the phylactery is definitely out of their grip. Depressing :(

Anarion

2012-01-10, 10:52 AM

...wow

That implosion graphic managed to be truly frightening in a stick-figure comic. Seeing the elf distort like that is quite disturbing.

Despite that, my biggest takeaway from this comic was "hmm, well I guess he's 17th level now." That's really really scary. Implosion is powerful, but in terms of affecting the story, that's potentially small potatoes compared to Redcloak casting Miracle or Gate as ways for the Dark One to intercede directly in the world's affairs.

Arakune

2012-01-10, 10:54 AM

Now they are on the big leagues now. Good to know the good guys won't have it easy during those critical times.

t209

2012-01-10, 10:54 AM

Mordae

2012-01-10, 10:55 AM

And for the next trick, the devil rips the polymorphed hobgoblin in half and steals the phylactery for the IFCC...

Or not. This was definitely a violence-filled strip by necessity, as the stakes are too high for Redcloak or the Resistance to even consider negotiations. Maybe we switch back to intrigue mode from here.

hoff

2012-01-10, 10:56 AM

That polymorphed hobbo had too many lines to be a throw away character. I wonder if he has class levels.

Peelee

2012-01-10, 10:57 AM

HandofShadows

2012-01-10, 10:58 AM

Doubel ^%$# Crap. :smalleek::smallfrown:

super dark33

2012-01-10, 10:58 AM

I get the very scary feeling that it's a balor.

Nay, tis a pit fiend.

CoffeeIncluded

2012-01-10, 10:59 AM

Ooooh, implosion is...Nasty. Wasn't expecting that!

Mixt

2012-01-10, 10:59 AM

Karma wins again!

Take that you filthy elven scum!
Now burn in hell!

jidasfire

2012-01-10, 11:00 AM

This is how I like Team Evil - cunning, competent and a real threat. That's how you make good stories.

Yeah, but at a certain point, when the villains just keep getting more and more powerful, while the heroes fail to accomplish even their most basic goals, and the villains seem to have no exploitable weaknesses, it can be a little wearying. There's a difference, for me at least, between asking, "How are the heroes going to get out of this?" and saying, "Sigh. They simply AREN'T going to get out of this."

I guess this little arc isn't over, but in two strips, it's pretty much undone every good thing that Haley and the Resistance did over the course of an entire book or more. I realize also that the Azurites aren't the true heroes of the story, but having the Resistance around signified the fact that perhaps eventually some of the evil done by Xykon and Redcloak might be mitigated. Now that hope is utterly dashed. Azure City will probably never be retaken, leaving Hinjo and his charges permanently marooned and useless, which, again, leaves me to wonder why we were ever asked to invest ourselves in their struggles at all.

Competent villains are one thing. Invincible villains are quite another.

pendell

2012-01-10, 11:05 AM

The more I see Thahn, the more I like him. I didn't really agree with the hate for the elven commander before, and I'm certainly not cheering his death, but he sealed his own fate here by trying to attack Redcloak directly without any sort of plan. Here's hoping Thahn manages to make it out alright. I quite like every one of the surviving members of the Sapphire Guard.

I'd like to see Thanh make it out alive as well, but I don't think he will.He said that he would stay behind to delay the enemy while the others got away with the phylactery to fight another day. Thanh will deliberately draw the enemy's attention to himself and force them to spend combat rounds killing him, buying time for an escape.

Of course, given that the group which escaped with the phylactery contained a disguised spy, his sacrifice was utterly in vain. "Nothing funnier than false hope", as Xykon himself would say.

Given the obvious dominance Redcloak has, it appears that the main story purpose of the resistance is to show how utterly badass he is, building him into a credible threat to the OOTS and Tarquin in the upcoming title match which is happening VERY soon.

The sole hope I can see of Thanh's survival is if he is captured alive because Team Evil gets enjoyment out of torturing paladins and they don't have O-chul to kick around anymore. But I have a hard time imagining the pragmatic Redcloak going for that. More likely Redcloak will simply kill Thanh.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

TheBST

2012-01-10, 11:06 AM

That's that, then. Phylactery back into Team Evil's hands. Ouch. :smalleek:

If that IS the Phylactery. Not saying they haven't found the real one- but what if the blue-bun-haired gent is carrying a decoy in case...well, in case this happened.

After all of Tarquin's shennanigans it's nice to see the true villains of this comic do their thing

The Pilgrim

2012-01-10, 11:06 AM

My guess is:
Hinjo shows up with reinforcements to save the remaining resistance members. That, or he doesn't receive a sending spell from Thanh for an extended period of time, and he can guess what happened.

I don't think Hinjo has an epic wizard capable of teleporting through the Cloister.

RMS Oceanic

2012-01-10, 11:10 AM

I'd like to see Thanh make it out alive as well, but I don't think he will.He said that he would stay behind to delay the enemy while the others got away with the phylactery to fight another day. Thanh will deliberately draw the enemy's attention to himself and force them to spend combat rounds killing him, buying time for an escape.

Of course, given that the group which escaped with the phylactery contained a disguised spy, his sacrifice was utterly in vain. "Nothing funnier than false hope", as Xykon himself would say.

Given the obvious dominance Redcloak has, it appears that the main story purpose of the resistance is to show how utterly badass he is, building him into a credible threat to the OOTS and Tarquin in the upcoming title match which is happening VERY soon.

The sole hope I can see of Thanh's survival is if he is captured alive because Team Evil gets enjoyment out of torturing paladins and they don't have O-chul to kick around anymore. But I have a hard time imagining the pragmatic Redcloak going for that. More likely Redcloak will simply kill Thanh.

Indeed, especially after what happened the last time he had a Paladin held captive.

Assuming that the Resistance is truly crushed, I wonder what Redcloak will do with the recovered phylactery. My suspicion is that once Xykon learns of its recovery, he will immediately take it from Redcloak, because he failed to protect it last time. Thus my hunch is that he might be intending to conceal its discovery for a while, to buy Gobbotopia more time in establishing itself as a legitimate state. Whether or not he gets to before Xykon returns is up to the Giant.

Laws of Chaos

2012-01-10, 11:10 AM

Wow! I guess that answers a few questions. And is it just me, or was that kind of unsetteling?

Giant, you are truely a master at your craft! I am forever amazed at the variety and strong responces you can induce through simple stick figures and great story telling. Thank you.

deuxhero

2012-01-10, 11:13 AM

Does the devil in panel 2 have combat reflexes? Shouldn't it be flat footed?

EternalRuin

2012-01-10, 11:14 AM

If that IS the Phylactery. Not saying they haven't found the real one- but what if the blue-bun-haired gent is carrying a decoy in case...well, in case this happened.

After all of Tarquin's shennanigans it's nice to see the true villains of this comic do their thing

You ninj'd me... I was about to suggest that, but that Niu switched them out before she gave them to the Paladin chick. Street smarts, you know.

I hope that's how it went, but I have feeling that they're all screwed at this point, so... :smallfrown:

Raistlin82

2012-01-10, 11:15 AM

Whoa!
I gotta say, the HSQ (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Holy****Quotient) of this comic has pretty much doubled up in the last eight strips. Can't wait to see what's next!

I'm surprise Thanh called the retreat while the elf made a futile attack.

I'm glad that the old "Paladins are Lawful Stupid" thing has been avoided once again.

Sunken Valley

2012-01-10, 11:16 AM

So who is the spy? I didn't think Team evil had anyoe who could do polymorph.

Nohar

2012-01-10, 11:17 AM

... Oh my God :eek:

Now we have the confirmation (even if I think that it was already guessed a while ago) that Redcloak is at least level 17...

... Implosion made me feel uneasy... Not that is a bad thing ! Actually, it reinforces greatly the fact that Redcloak is incredibly powerful and dangerous (and it is a nice change from the last cleric duel we had the occasion to witness... Yup, they really blew up the supereffects that time :smallbiggrin: ), and that he and Xykon are the most dangerous antagonists out there (combining a whole army, and very high levels, though Xykon is ahead of Redcloak as far as we know in that last category - Tarquin is powerful too, and cunning, but this strip shows where is the real menace as for now). I don't really see the OOTS take Team Evil (with ou without Tsukiko and MitD) head on... That would be suicide.

Gosh, he doesn't pull any punches.

Ancalagon

2012-01-10, 11:19 AM

Nice, entertaining comic and good reveal on Redcloaks new level! It's about time, now he really is the High Cleric of the Dark One. :)

Of course class and level geekery is forbidden, so we cannot go on talking about it.

Funny how the resistance ended. Niu seems dead, so let's see how Thanh fares.

I misread the second Implosion on the first casual glance as "Ketchup", I'm not sure if that was intended but I found that misread somewhat funny.

Castamir

2012-01-10, 11:22 AM

jidasfire

2012-01-10, 11:24 AM

Peelee

2012-01-10, 11:26 AM

I'd be hard-pressed to believe the phylactery dropped in the last panel is a decoy, seeing as Thahn is making a last stand to let them get away with it. Of course, as incredibly wrong as I was calling that Redcloak didn't know about the returning party in the last comic and was simply monologuing (my turn to get neenered, it would seem), I'm not so sure how correct that read is. I don't at all expect the it to be a decoy, or for Thahn to live, but I'm very much hoping for it. MAN I was hoping for the good guys to hold the phylactery. The little victories can sometimes feel like they make up for the massive defeats.

RMS Oceanic

2012-01-10, 11:27 AM

Qwertystop

2012-01-10, 11:29 AM

Wait, he just got a new spell level and he's casting it twice? How many 9ths/day do Clerics get at level 17?

rewinn

2012-01-10, 11:31 AM

I'm surprise Thanh called the retreat while the elf made a futile attack.
...

Yes, it shows a bit of character growth. Kind of a pity if it is all wasted, but that's life.

And death.

pendell

2012-01-10, 11:32 AM

Another thing that kinda grinds my gears about this comic is just how is Redcloak gaining levels? Belkar couldn't gain a single XP for killing a mountain of hobgoblins, but Redcloak has been sitting on his behind for over a year, and the only combat he was in, he was beaten up by a naked mid-level paladin with a stick. It's pretty obvious none of the Resistance members are even close to his level, so even if he's been fighting them up to now (which it seems apparent that he hasn't), where is this XP coming from? Hinjo apparently gained no XP while administrating a city, so this all just doesn't add up to me. It would be one thing if he wasn't already an overwhelming match for these guys, but he clearly is.

Two possibilities:

1) Just because we haven't seen Redcloak gaining XP on panel doesn't mean he hasn't been in quite a few fights. It HAS been a year. Why assume he's done nothing but write reports?

2) He may benefit from the recurring antagonist automatic upgrade (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0581.html). The OOTS are the protaganists of the story. The recurring villains get automatic upgrades so that they remain a credible threat rather than undergoing villain decay.

The world of OOTS runs on the laws of gaming and the laws of humor, and the 'automatic upgrade' fulfills both.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Gift Jeraff

2012-01-10, 11:32 AM

Wait, he just got a new spell level and he's casting it twice? How many 9ths/day do Clerics get at level 17?It's the same spell. Implosion can be used up to 4 times.

Anarion

2012-01-10, 11:32 AM

Grats for dinging, :redcloak:!

However, for the polymorphed rogue: is there a spell that they could possibly cast that has a decent duration? The SRD has Alter Self (not for rogue -- Sor/Wiz/Bard 2), Polymorph (Sor/Wiz 4), and Polymorph Any Object (Sor/Wiz 8, Trickery 8). The former two have durations that last minutes so they're out. Polymorph Any is permanent, but even in Team Evil, only Xykon can cast it.

Am I missing something?

Tsukiko could cast polymorph any object from a scroll, probably with minimal difficulty. Xykon could cast it from a scroll as well. Reasonable chance they found at least one use of it in all of Azure city, or even that Xykon teleported off somewhere and obtained a copy of it, as he is wont to do from time to time.

Another thing that kinda grinds my gears about this comic is just how is Redcloak gaining levels? Belkar couldn't gain a single XP for killing a mountain of hobgoblins, but Redcloak has been sitting on his behind for over a year, and the only combat he was in, he was beaten up by a naked mid-level paladin with a stick. It's pretty obvious none of the Resistance members are even close to his level, so even if he's been fighting them up to now (which it seems apparent that he hasn't), where is this XP coming from? Hinjo apparently gained no XP while administrating a city, so this all just doesn't add up to me. It would be one thing if he wasn't already an overwhelming match for these guys, but he clearly is.

Ironically, V might have been a big contributor to this. Redcloak participated in that fight, cast a couple spells and gave Xykon critical information for his victory. If V was such a high effective level that (s)he couldn't gain any XP, it stands to reason that Redcloak, and perhaps even Xykon received a big windfall from their victory.

The Pink Ninja

2012-01-10, 11:33 AM

.... Well, that didn't go as planned. And here I thought they would be more careful who they have join their ranks...

The spy probably has quite a few levels and a maxed out buff skill plus who knows what prestiege class or magic items made by Redcloak/Xykon.

Wow, a grotesque spell and two panels for the death scene of the Elf Commander, for extended joy.

Thank you very mucho, Giant. :smallbiggrin:

Good riddens to racist rubbish.

Hasn't Hinjo been keeping in touch with Thanh? He can't contact them because of the cloister spell, but Thanh can still have his casters use sending spells to contact Hinjo.

My guess is:
Hinjo shows up with reinforcements to save the remaining resistance members. That, or he doesn't receive a sending spell from Thanh for an extended period of time, and he can guess what happened.

Nah, Hinjo lacks the resources to do any such thing. He can barely defend the fleet.

And for the next trick, the devil rips the polymorphed hobgoblin in half and steals the phylactery for the IFCC...

Ooooooh! I like it!

That polymorphed hobbo had too many lines to be a throw away character. I wonder if he has class levels.

Given his ability to decieve high level elves, wizards ect he probably has quite a few level, a bunch of points in bluff or whatever and maybe even a deception based prestiege class.

Yeah, but at a certain point, when the villains just keep getting more and more powerful, while the heroes fail to accomplish even their most basic goals, and the villains seem to have no exploitable weaknesses, it can be a little wearying. There's a difference, for me at least, between asking, "How are the heroes going to get out of this?" and saying, "Sigh. They simply AREN'T going to get out of this."

I guess this little arc isn't over, but in two strips, it's pretty much undone every good thing that Haley and the Resistance did over the course of an entire book or more. I realize also that the Azurites aren't the true heroes of the story, but having the Resistance around signified the fact that perhaps eventually some of the evil done by Xykon and Redcloak might be mitigated. Now that hope is utterly dashed. Azure City will probably never be retaken, leaving Hinjo and his charges permanently marooned and useless, which, again, leaves me to wonder why we were ever asked to invest ourselves in their struggles at all.

Competent villains are one thing. Invincible villains are quite another.

If we narrow it down to big things the villains haven't suceeded at anything either other than taking Azure city which is a small part of this vast comic. If we include smaller goals, I'm too tired too list the number of little victories.

What is the alternative? Xykon being defeated at Azure city is predictable a dull. Major badass decay. The power and effectiveness of the villains so far has been one of the things that makes OOTS stand out.

And I'm more invested in the Goblins than the Azurites anyway.

Dr.Gunsforhands

2012-01-10, 11:35 AM

Peelee

2012-01-10, 11:36 AM

Wait, he just got a new spell level and he's casting it twice? How many 9ths/day do Clerics get at level 17?

According to the SRD, Clerics get 1 9th level spell/day at level 17 (plus one for their domain), and level 18 they get 2. As for Redcloak casting it twice, I saw someone else mention class and geekery is....frowned upon (outside of the class and geekery thread? I dunno), so I'm not gonna touch any connecting dots and leave that info as general "here is what my 'cleric SRD' google got me."

EDIT: Never played Cleric, so dunno how their Wisdom for bonus spells works out. Apparently, not as well as Char for Sorcs. Anyway, The Pilgrim covers it below hooray! I've somehow been ninja'd after the fact.

The Pilgrim

2012-01-10, 11:36 AM

Wait, he just got a new spell level and he's casting it twice? How many 9ths/day do Clerics get at level 17?

one, plus one domain spell, plus one bonus spell if he has a wisdom score of at least 28 (which is unlikely)

Corian

2012-01-10, 11:37 AM

On the decoy idea: We saw Niu give the phylactery to the guy who got killed in the last panel. However, we do not see Niu after 1st panel. She may just have decided to hide and pick that guy's pocket at the last second. Possible, but it does seem a bit contrived. Note: there is a dead woman on the ground who looks like her, but was in the room before the party arrived.

Ron Miel

2012-01-10, 11:37 AM

bye bye niu and eyepatch girl

Did Niu die in the 7th Panel? :smalleek:

You mean panel 8?

I don't think it's her. Look at the previous strip. You can see a dead nameless soldier at the bottom of the page. I think it's her, not Niu.

I hope.

jidasfire

2012-01-10, 11:39 AM

Noncombat challenges? He's been working on building a nation and the diplomacy involved would be very challenging. Belkar wouldn't think to gain XP that way.

Yeah, I don't buy it. As I said, Hinjo has been trucking a group of harried survivors across a hostile seascape while treacherous nobles, ninjas, and demons plotted his demise and he canonically did not gain a single level in a whole year. Redcloak was 15th level at the battle of Azure City, and while I could buy the notion that he gained a level from that, afterwards is where it falls apart for me. Redcloak has faced no real challenges since then, except ones he has failed catastrophically. He's run a society in which he is seen as a living god by his subjects whose lives he cedes to his more evil counterparts rather than stand up for them. He tortured a person he knew had no information to help him or power to oppose him, and in the end, when forced to face that person in combat, he ran away. I simply cannot believe that he has earned anything resembling a high-level increase like that, when the Order themselves, who are lower level and facing greater challenges, have not gained levels nearly so quickly.

sims796

2012-01-10, 11:40 AM

Well, that happened. So what now?

Ancalagon

2012-01-10, 11:41 AM

Another thing that kinda grinds my gears about this comic is just how is Redcloak gaining levels?

While it seems likely Redcloak has not fought much (if at all) I find it likely all those things he did (administration of a whole city, being the head-everything, organising all kinds of things) has given him a lot of Roleplay XP.
Having him gain one or two levels due to that only seems fair and legit (and every player who did stuff like that in a gaming group should also get a level or two out of this).

Interestingly, "a level or two" is what our estimates what Redcloak was lacking to hit the ability to cast level 9 spells has fitted with this for quite a while.

Peelee

2012-01-10, 11:43 AM

Obviously, O-Chul is so awesome that it is CR 18 just to survive an encounter with him.

Superlike! If only O-Chul had been in the Resistance when Redcloak pulled his powerplay. Redcloak probably woulda had to make a fort save just to avoid soiling himself.

sims796

2012-01-10, 11:43 AM

Yeah, but at a certain point, when the villains just keep getting more and more powerful, while the heroes fail to accomplish even their most basic goals, and the villains seem to have no exploitable weaknesses, it can be a little wearying. There's a difference, for me at least, between asking, "How are the heroes going to get out of this?" and saying, "Sigh. They simply AREN'T going to get out of this."

I guess this little arc isn't over, but in two strips, it's pretty much undone every good thing that Haley and the Resistance did over the course of an entire book or more. I realize also that the Azurites aren't the true heroes of the story, but having the Resistance around signified the fact that perhaps eventually some of the evil done by Xykon and Redcloak might be mitigated. Now that hope is utterly dashed. Azure City will probably never be retaken, leaving Hinjo and his charges permanently marooned and useless, which, again, leaves me to wonder why we were ever asked to invest ourselves in their struggles at all.

Competent villains are one thing. Invincible villains are quite another.

I can't lie, there are times when I feel this way as well in this comic.

pendell

2012-01-10, 11:44 AM

Good riddance to racist rubbish.

Fixed :).

I've been thinking about this, and I have to disagree.

Don't forget that the Elven Commander is fighting to liberate a people who are enslaved, murdered, and turned into undead by an aggressor. Don't forget that Redcloak has a mad plan which could very well wind up destroying the world.

The Elven commander was part of the solution, not part of the problem. He may not have been the most admirable soldier or a paladin. But he was fighting for the freedom of the oppressed and for his country. So I don't feel the need to rejoice in his death even if he did have flaws.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Person_Man

2012-01-10, 11:44 AM

OOTS reminds me more and more of Gary Gygax's work. Interesting, filled with cool spells and magic items and internal mythology and other shiney things. But it's also very deus ex machina-ish sometimes because the story is so driven by magic (as opposed to character choices), because D&D magic (pre-4E) can basically do anything. So when you consider the "logical" implications of what would someone with such magic do and how the story would play out, the answer is basically anything the author wants.

It makes for fun games and comic strips, though it's a bit frustrating for longer stories and novels, which OOTS has evolved into. Of course, the worlds most popular fantasy fiction tends to have very "magic driven" stories, so clearly I'm in the minority on this front.

RMS Oceanic

2012-01-10, 11:44 AM

Yeah, I don't buy it. As I said, Hinjo has been trucking a group of harried survivors across a hostile seascape while treacherous nobles, ninjas, and demons plotted his demise and he canonically did not gain a single level in a whole year. Redcloak was 15th level at the battle of Azure City, and while I could buy the notion that he gained a level from that, afterwards is where it falls apart for me. Redcloak has faced no real challenges since then, except ones he has failed catastrophically. He's run a society in which he is seen as a living god by his subjects whose lives he cedes to his more evil counterparts rather than stand up for them. He tortured a person he knew had no information to help him or power to oppose him, and in the end, when forced to face that person in combat, he ran away. I simply cannot believe that he has earned anything resembling a high-level increase like that, when the Order themselves, who are lower level and facing greater challenges, have not gained levels nearly so quickly.

In that case there's also Crystal's approach: Being one of the Order's primary antagonists, he may benefit from free progression as the Order gets stronger.

Cranica

2012-01-10, 11:45 AM

Wait, he just got a new spell level and he's casting it twice? How many 9ths/day do Clerics get at level 17?

Implosion can be channeled for up to four rounds, killing one target per round.

Nohar

2012-01-10, 11:45 AM

For everyone wondering why/how Redcloak is seen affecting two people with just one spell, I invite you to read the spell effects here (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Implosion) .

So, when Implosion is cast, the spell can affect a maximum of 4 creatures, one by round. With this single spell, Redcloak can croak 4 people in 4 rounds, as long as he concentrates for it (which means he must not be interrupted by failing his Concentration check, or that he doesn't decide to stop channeling the spell in order to cast something else).

So, here, Redcloak isn't doing anything outside of the rules or D&D 3.5 : he's following them perfectly.

Edition : Damnation, other people answered before me... Oh well :smallsigh:

Melee

2012-01-10, 11:45 AM

Well, implosion is certainly... disturbing.

But it does show that Redcloak is playing for keeps

jidasfire

2012-01-10, 11:47 AM

Fixed :).

I've been thinking about this, and I have to disagree.

Don't forget that the Elven Commander is fighting to liberate a people who are enslaved, murdered, and turned into undead by an aggressor. Don't forget that Redcloak has a mad plan which could very well wind up destroying the world.

The Elven commander was part of the solution, not part of the problem. He may not have been the most admirable soldier or a paladin. But he was fighting for the freedom of the oppressed and for his country. So I don't feel the need to rejoice in his death even if he did have flaws.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Thank you for saying this. It's weird to me that people prefer nihilistic sadists and oppressive fanatics to a mildly ruthless bigot.

Whiffet

2012-01-10, 11:47 AM

No! Not that one nameless resistance member! I liked that one!

And I would have liked to see more development for the elf commander. I seriously disliked him, yes, but there was some interesting storytelling potential there.

Other than that, I'm quite satisfied. I fully expect Redcloak to be this competent. Way to go with his own spy!

Redcloak can use Implosion now? Nice.

Roland Itiative

2012-01-10, 11:49 AM

So the prisoner hobbo got his revenge? Nice.

For a moment there I thought that Resistance guy would manage to flee with the phylactery.

It's also interesting how now we know the exact level of someone, for a change.

zingbat

2012-01-10, 11:49 AM

Urg. Poor Elf Commander. I figured he had Death by Goblin stamped on his karma card, but still, what a gruesome way to go.

I like Thanh and Niu. I hope they don't die...

The Pilgrim

2012-01-10, 11:50 AM

El Dorado

2012-01-10, 11:51 AM

Lots of death, destruction, and betrayal. Gotta love it.

Timberboar

2012-01-10, 11:55 AM

Yeah, but at a certain point, when the villains just keep getting more and more powerful, (...), and the villains seem to have no exploitable weaknesses (...)

Competent villains are one thing. Invincible villains are quite another.

Yeah, I don't buy it. (...) Redcloak has faced no real challenges since then, except ones he has failed catastrophically.

I feel you're contradicting yourself here.

Mutant Sheep

2012-01-10, 11:55 AM

M.A.D

2012-01-10, 11:59 AM

Wow, thanks for the update!!

So, are the people whose name we know still alive? I first thought that the black-haired corpse was Niu's, but she had long hair while the corpse's hair was short

Peelee

2012-01-10, 12:01 PM

About the Elven Commander, the Giant only devoted one scene to develope this character: The infamous one in which he murders in cold blood a helpless, chained prisoner who is also willing to collaborate.

So, since that has been the only true particular thing we have been shown about this character, don't be surprised if some of us root when he gets imploded like scum.

You mean the a helpless, chained prisoner who had a very high likelihood of being a spy? An even higher likelihood now, in 3rd-party hindsight? Which would have made his "helpless, chained prisoner" traits be a simple ruse to infiltrate the Resistance?

Yeah, it may have been ruthless, but make no mistake, the Resistance was still at war. It's easy to forget what a sin is in the middle of a battlefield.

jidasfire

2012-01-10, 12:04 PM

I feel you're contradicting yourself here.

I can see why you might think that, except when you consider that despite Redcloak's failings, he's still gaining power at an exponential rate. Team Evil has a tendency to be rewarded with massive victories despite doing everything wrong and having every reason to lose. I understand that outside forces won't (and shouldn't) beat them. I want the Order to succeed against them, and certainly the Resistance should not be the ones to kill Redcloak or Xykon here and now. What bothers me is less that the villains are still around and more that they already overpower the heroes and practically everyone in the world, and despite not really earning more power in the sense of overcoming obstacles worthy of them or learning new things about themselves, they are given EVEN more of that power they already have the majority of. That and I tend to dislike stories where the good the heroes do is undone in a handwave, because it makes my investment in the hero's deeds worthless.

Saph

2012-01-10, 12:06 PM

Scarlet Knight

2012-01-10, 12:07 PM

You mean panel 8?

I don't think it's her. Look at the previous strip. You can see a dead nameless soldier at the bottom of the page. I think it's her, not Niu.

I hope.

Rich might kill her to increase the pathos of their situation...or just to prevent a Niu rash of puns from starting...

Roland Itiative

2012-01-10, 12:09 PM

You mean the a helpless, chained prisoner who had a very high likelihood of being a spy? An even higher likelihood now, in 3rd-party hindsight? Which would have made his "helpless, chained prisoner" traits be a simple ruse to infiltrate the Resistance?

He had a "very high likelihood of being a spy" for being a hobbo? You don't kill people based on assumptions based on race alone unless you're a genocidal maniac. Specially in a world where killing someone is a ridiculously bad method of making them shut up, what with clerics being able to speak with the dead or bring them back. Taking the hobbo for a prisioner of their own until they could prove him trustworthy would be the non-evil, yet still prejudicial, way to deal with him.

Mutant Sheep

2012-01-10, 12:12 PM

Karma wins again!

Take that you filthy elven scum!
Now burn in hell!

I think hes going to a True Neutral or Something-that's-not-Chaotic Good afterlife, since Redcloak didn't bother stealing his soul. :smalltongue: Now, Redcloak, he WILL burn in hell after Durkon righteously bonks him on the head really hard. (Unless he goes with plan B and releases the Snarl, destroying himself, creation, etc.)

Though, how would the gods (especially the Dark One) get away from the Snarl a second time if it was released? Its not like the Dark One was there, so unless Tiamat and the other Evil gods are sharing with him the secrets of the universe and how to escape the godslaughtering monster and the Snarl is incapable learning to search outer planes for tasty god-meat (admittedly, a likely thing), the Snarl could just undo the Dark One, then all the planes, and the smart gods would just throw out the idea of goblins entirely for the third world.)

Gift Jeraff

2012-01-10, 12:12 PM

Roland Itiative

2012-01-10, 12:16 PM

Though, how would the gods (especially the Dark One) get away from the Snarl a second time if it was released? Its not like the Dark One was there, so unless Tiamat and the other Evil gods are sharing with him the secrets of the universe and the Snarl is incapable of searching outer planes for tasty god-meat (admittedly, a likely thing), the Snarl could just undo the Dark One, then all the planes, and the smart gods would just throw out the idea of goblins entirely.)

The idea is that, if the Snarl is ever released, the gods will just execute their plan B, and remake the prison (a.k.a. destroying the world themselves, and rebuilding it around the Snarl again). The Dark One, being a god, would be included in the creation process, and thus would be able to give goblins a proper role in the new world. So Redcloak would get himself unmade, but ensure the creation of a world where goblins are not living XP sacks.

ilcane87

2012-01-10, 12:18 PM

Heh, Niu isn't seen after the first panel, the corpse on the floor isn't hers since it wears gray, not black, and was seen in the previous strip too; I bet she's sneaking around and she's gonna pickpocket that little bauble from the spy. :smallcool:

There must be some big accomplishment for the Resistance, and I think Thahn also has good chances of being spared because of it.
After all, if the villains were simply going to recover the philactery, there would have been little point to these last few strips.

Mutant Sheep

2012-01-10, 12:20 PM

The idea is that, if the Snarl is ever released, the gods will just execute their plan B, and remake the prison (a.k.a. destroying the world themselves, and rebuilding it around the Snarl again). The Dark One, being a god, would be included in the creation process, and thus would be able to give goblins a proper role in the new world. So Redcloak would get himself unmade, but ensure the creation of a world where goblins are not living XP sacks.

But thats assuming that the Snarl sits there stupidly as they trap it again, and that the gods decide that the guy DIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE for the release of the Snarl should get to help remake the world, instead of say, being thrown into the Snarls mouth for releasing the darn thing.

Roland Itiative

2012-01-10, 12:22 PM

Maquise

2012-01-10, 12:24 PM

Ick, nasty stuff.

I'm tending to agree with the whole "Good guys can't win ever" complaint, but I'm willing to trust that Rich knows where he's going on this.

On the other hand, now I'm glad that I play Skyrim on the pc, as I suddenly have the urge to cast Implosion on the Thalmor.

SpaceBadger

2012-01-10, 12:25 PM

Thanks, Giant! I'm enjoying the frequent updates, they really keep the story moving!

Peelee

2012-01-10, 12:26 PM

He had a "very high likelihood of being a spy" for being a hobbo. You don't kill people based on assumptions based on race alone unless you're a genocidal maniac. Specially in a world where killing someone is a ridiculously bad method of making them shut up, what with clerics being able to speak with the dead or bring them back. Taking the hobbo for a prisioner of their own until they could prove him trustworthy would be the non-evil, yet still prejudicial, way to deal with him.

Yes, he did have a very high likelihood of being a spy specifically because he was a hobbo. A hobgoblin army attacked Azure City, won, and occupied the city. As such, all hobgoblins in the city were from the invading force. Which makes that prisoner, by virtue of him being a hobgoblin, part of the invading force which is now occupying the city. Knowing he was a part of the army that decimated Azure City's military, captured the city, and killed and enslaved the remaining populace casts him in a very dubious light, and removes any need of being a "genocidal maniac" to have severe suspicion of him. I'm not saying the eld commander wasn't racist, but if you're racist against hobbos, are part of a guerilla insurgency group fighting against an invasion force of only hobbos, come up on a hobbo who is a huge risk of being a spy, and kill the hobbo to protect the security of the organization, I would be hard pressed to call him a "genocidal maniac." Also, taking the goblin prisoner until they could prove him trustworhty would be the good way of dealing with him, not the non-evil. Nothing we've seen suggests that the elf commander is good.

AutomatedTeller

2012-01-10, 12:29 PM

Well. That's a fast way to resolve several long-standing arcs. Phylactery, resistance, elven insurgents.

That's a hell of a plan that redcloak cooked up. Gobbotopia has been secured while he and Xykon go to the next gate.

btw - last line was good - reading too much into it ;)

The MunchKING

2012-01-10, 12:31 PM

Two possibilities:

1) Just because we haven't seen Redcloak gaining XP on panel doesn't mean he hasn't been in quite a few fights. It HAS been a year. Why assume he's done nothing but write reports?

You'd be suprised how often people pop in to try to kill you when you're working on an evil scheme. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html)

Also he helped beat Darth V. THAT's got to be worth a buttload of EXP.

The Muse

2012-01-10, 12:33 PM

So wait.... I know this is kinda going out on a limb here, but could that polymorphed traitor guy be Xykon???? Or was he just another hobgoblin? Because when you think about it, it sort of makes sense. Xykon disappeared, and the traitor mentioned being in prison for weeks.

The MunchKING

2012-01-10, 12:37 PM

We saw Xycon at the Oracle's.

SamBurke

2012-01-10, 12:39 PM

Grrr...

Wonder how this going down...

JohnnyCancer

2012-01-10, 12:41 PM

Brumski

2012-01-10, 12:41 PM

Why is RC all by his lonesome? Other then his devil friends of course.

Maybe we're finally getting the Team Evil double-cross. And we're shown he's got 9th level spells. True Resurrection anyone?

slayerx

2012-01-10, 12:41 PM

But thats assuming that the Snarl sits there stupidly as they trap it again, and that the gods decide that the guy DIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE for the release of the Snarl should get to help remake the world, instead of say, being thrown into the Snarls mouth for releasing the darn thing.

Well, that's what happened the first time. The snarl just sat their and let itself be captured... not to mention the fact that NOTHING suggests the snarl is all that intelligent. Its a creature of pure chaos.

And yes, if the gods wanted to they could attempt to throw the dark One to the snarl before they tie it back up. Though maybe that's what the dead goblin army is for; to make sure the dark one will be able to fight to remain a god when if the gods turn on him... they can't spend too much time fighting the dark one when the snarl is on the loose

eusticepious

2012-01-10, 12:41 PM

Thanks Giant. Love the last panel. Really did blow the special effects budget, too!

Killer Angel

2012-01-10, 12:42 PM

This was a masterful action of counter-espionage and strike!
Also, the implosion effect was cool.

Valyrian

2012-01-10, 12:47 PM

Thank you for saying this. It's weird to me that people prefer nihilistic sadists and oppressive fanatics to a mildly ruthless bigot.
I second this post.

Well. That's a fast way to resolve several long-standing arcs. Phylactery, resistance, elven insurgents.
That makes me wonder, though, why they were introduced at all. That nagged me already in the previous strip, but then I assumed one of them would survive somehow. Did the Giant realize there were too many plot threads going on?

Delusion

2012-01-10, 12:47 PM

To people wondering how Redcloak managed to level up. He has not leveled up during the whole duration of the comic so he might have been sitting within 1 xp from leveling up for long time for all we know.

Now I don't know wether to fan Tarquin or RC more :smalleek:

warmachine

2012-01-10, 12:50 PM

Thanh can think in a crisis, I'll give him that.

And there's a lesson for the rest of us: scan new people with True Seeing.

SamBurke

2012-01-10, 12:51 PM

Good, good; now we can get the real villains back on a collision course with the heroes! Awful way for the resistance to go out though, it would have been nice if some of them could have gotten out even if they lost the amulet.

O-Chul, sir. EDIT: Or is that Thanh?

He is not dead by the comic.

Due to his screen time, he won't die. My shot his him getting the phylactery out of the castle BY HIS LONESOME and being epic.

Vierbryn

2012-01-10, 12:52 PM

Go Team Evil! :smallbiggrin: I can't wait to see next update.

Andre

2012-01-10, 12:55 PM

With the "Who was Redcloak talking to?" question solved, here's a little art debate for this strip: A lot of people seem to be saying that Thanh is saying to retreat in the first panel, but I read it as Niu. Then I realized she could have her mouth open in shock.

Thoughts?

I thought it was Niu as well, but it's anybody's guess due to Thanh's evil moustache.

And on another matter, I don't think Implosion adds anything yet to the Redcloak character aside from the fact that 9th level spells are now available; we've already seen him using almost exclusively either summonings, or save-or-suck spells such as slay living, harm, disintegrate, blade barrier etc.
By all means, it's a simple way to toast low-end characters easily, but more important ones merely need a decent dice plot roll to get away. :P

Raistlin82

2012-01-10, 12:55 PM

You'd be suprised how often people pop in to try to kill you when you're working on an evil scheme. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html)

Also he helped beat Darth V. THAT's got to be worth a buttload of EXP.

There's also the "good aligned dungeon", although he didn't kill the boss.

The Pilgrim

2012-01-10, 12:55 PM

You mean the a helpless, chained prisoner who had a very high likelihood of being a spy? An even higher likelihood now, in 3rd-party hindsight? Which would have made his "helpless, chained prisoner" traits be a simple ruse to infiltrate the Resistance?

So? Leave him in the Cell. Mind-wipe him with a Spell if you feel the need. There are also a lot of spells that can be used to discern if the guy is being honest or is a plant. Killing people just because it is convenient for you is not what Heroes must do in a Fantasy World. Elan spared Nale, twice. V was lectured for murdering Kubota. Even, in the scene you recall, the azurites said they wouldn't inform the Paladin about it, acknowledging the Elf Commander's action as a henious crime that wouldn't be tolerated by a LG character.

That kind of justification you wrote, is the same that drove Soon to send his paladins to "preemptively" slaughter everything around Azure City. It's the same that drove the paladins in SoD to slaughter Redcloack's village even after the High Priest of the Dark One was slain. The latter, according to the Giant, made some paladins fell. The former, also according to the Giant, triggered Karma Rebbutal and the destruction of Azure City.

It is not, thus, a kind of behaviour that the Giant approves for heroic characters. And I'm glad to confirm, in today's strip, that the Giant is being coherent about it.

Icedaemon

2012-01-10, 12:56 PM

Implosion is such a delightful spell. I really like the way this was made to work in the stick figure style.

Ingus

2012-01-10, 12:57 PM

So Redcloack is a competent, high level villain. And evil, very much so.

It is quite disturbing indeed, but I think it was given. There's even a scared face on the title

...by the way, I was thinking that the x-eyed chick in panel 8 was Niu, but in effect there was an already dead lookalike in previous strip.
And, for my most surprise, the Giant managed to keep the perspective between her and the generic azurite soldier up left. (confront 825, 7th panel to 826, 8th panel and you see the same two soldiers in almost the same position)

Aron Times

2012-01-10, 12:58 PM

For reference, here is a list of spells that Redcloak can now cast:

Astral Projection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/astralProjection.htm)M: Projects you and companions onto Astral Plane.
Energy Drain (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/energyDrain.htm): Subject gains 2d4 negative levels.
Etherealness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/etherealness.htm): Travel to Ethereal Plane with companions.
Gate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm)X: Connects two planes for travel or summoning.
Heal, Mass (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/healMass.htm): As heal, but with several subjects.
Implosion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/implosion.htm): Kills one creature/round.
Miracle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/miracle.htm)X: Requests a deity’s intercession.
Soul Bind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/soulBind.htm)F: Traps newly dead soul to prevent resurrection.
Storm of Vengeance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/stormOfVengeance.htm): Storm rains acid, lightning, and hail.
Summon Monster IX (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonMonsterIX.htm): Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you.
True Resurrection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueResurrection.htm)M: As resurrection, plus remains aren’t needed.

His domains are Law and Destruction, which grants Summon Monster IX and Imposion respectively.

Speculation start!

rewinn

2012-01-10, 01:00 PM

Ironically, Elven Commander might have survived if only he'd had a name.

Psyren

2012-01-10, 01:03 PM

Dead elves! Part of this complete breakfast :smallbiggrin:

Kish

2012-01-10, 01:03 PM

Well, that . . . wasn't very much fun to read.

Am I the only one who's starting to get depressed by the Team Evil/Azure City part of the comic? It's feeling as though everything the non-OotS good guys do is just pointless.
Certainly the non-OotS good guys will lose if the OotS doesn't act; that's part of the definition of the OotS being the main characters.

And I concur with the people who cheer to see Commander Racist go boom.

Icedaemon

2012-01-10, 01:16 PM

Yeah, but at a certain point, when the villains just keep getting more and more powerful, while the heroes fail to accomplish even their most basic goals, and the villains seem to have no exploitable weaknesses, it can be a little wearying. There's a difference, for me at least, between asking, "How are the heroes going to get out of this?" and saying, "Sigh. They simply AREN'T going to get out of this."

I guess this little arc isn't over, but in two strips, it's pretty much undone every good thing that Haley and the Resistance did over the course of an entire book or more. I realize also that the Azurites aren't the true heroes of the story, but having the Resistance around signified the fact that perhaps eventually some of the evil done by Xykon and Redcloak might be mitigated. Now that hope is utterly dashed. Azure City will probably never be retaken, leaving Hinjo and his charges permanently marooned and useless, which, again, leaves me to wonder why we were ever asked to invest ourselves in their struggles at all.

Competent villains are one thing. Invincible villains are quite another.

If you were expecting the resistance to come out of this with some assets intact then clearly we are not at the 'invincible boring villains' level yet. Also, all the good things the resistance had done did mostly include rescuing slaves and those unjustly imprisoned. One could successfully argue that this was all the good the resistance ever did that we ever got notification of. Surely most of those people were smuggled out and are probably alive somewhere. Y'know, unless the goblins made a written message for passing spelljammers somewhere.

eulmanis12

2012-01-10, 01:16 PM

I don't think Thahn will make it out alive. He basicly said "You Go! I'll hold them off"

Our favorite bard could tell us that for any hero who says the above, death is fairly immediate

Jubal_Barca

2012-01-10, 01:19 PM

I can see no way whatsoever of this happening, but I'm going to call the Phylactery ending up on the Semi-elemental Plane of Ranch Dressing. Given Redcloak's new spells involve planeshifty ones, you never know...

AutomatedTeller

2012-01-10, 01:20 PM

I don't think that's Xykon. I think the entire point of these past few strips have been that Redcloak figured out a way to get the phylactery and clear out Gobbotopia of the problems. Xykon wouldn't care about it - in fact, if Xykon knew about it, he'd probably reject the idea.

Peelee

2012-01-10, 01:24 PM

So? Leave him in the Cell. Mind-wipe him with a Spell if you feel the need. There are also a lot of spells that can be used to discern if the guy is being honest or is a plant. Killing people just because it is convenient for you is not what Heroes must do in a Fantasy World. Elan spared Nale, twice. V was lectured for murdering Kubota. Even, in the scene you recall, the azurites said they wouldn't inform the Paladin about it, acknowledging the Elf Commander's action as a henious crime that wouldn't be tolerated by a LG character.

Would V's selling his soul be tolerated by a LG character? V is far, far more of a heroic character than the Elf Commander, keep in mind. Also, V was lectured for murdering Kubota. Are you equating that lecture and the death by implosion of the Elf Commander to be the same level payback for their deeds? Would the Elf Commander's actions have been alright if he had just been given a stern talking to?

That kind of justification you wrote, is the same that drove Soon to send his paladins to "preemptively" slaughter everything around Azure City. It's the same that drove the paladins in SoD to slaughter Redcloack's village even after the High Priest of the Dark One was slain. The latter, according to the Giant, made some paladins fell. The former, also according to the Giant, triggered Karma Rebbutal and the destruction of Azure City.

I'm not familiar with the preemptive slaying of everything around Azure City. If it's a bonus strip in NCftPB or War & XPs, I won't know if it yet. If it's elsewhere, you'll have to remind me of it. In the latter, though, yes, Giant has said that some paladins fell. Not all. Meaning the justification was, in fact, validated; some paladins just went too far. That the Elf Commander is not a paladin, nor even a good-aligned character (clearly we can rule that out based on the murder), he is under no such restrictions to only do what is good,m and only needed his justification for his actions to sit well. On another note, V also used a fair bit of justification reasoning to sell his soul, and I have yet to hear you clamoring for his death. Unless, again, you think divorce or a short lecture is the equivalent of death by implosion in the "here's what happens when you do things like that" argument.

It is not, thus, a kind of behaviour that the Giant approves for heroic characters. And I'm glad to confirm, in today's strip, that the Giant is being coherent about it.

I'm not saying he Elf Commander shouldn't have died. I'm not saying he didn't even deserve to die. I'm saying I don't see why people cheer his death, especially at the hands of actual evil creatures.

stormtemplar

2012-01-10, 01:28 PM

You mean panel 8?

I don't think it's her. Look at the previous strip. You can see a dead nameless soldier at the bottom of the page. I think it's her, not Niu.

I hope.

Look a Niu's hair. It's a little past shoulder length, that soldier's hair is normal Azurite soldier length. (Reaches just out of helmet.) It's not her. And besides, outside of the fourth wall, she's had to many lines to kill off panel if the elven commander got a 2 panel death. He didn't even have a name.

edit: Above post, the slaughtering mentioned in the crayon drawings in (I think) NCftPB but shown in SoD

BlackDragonKing

2012-01-10, 01:30 PM

Oh, so the only good goblin is a dead goblin, but the elves killed for joining in this struggle are an unforgivable loss that needs to be avenged, eh? I gotta admit, I didn't really feel too sorry for the commander getting killed at all. Shame that it seems like the resistance movement is going to go down with him.

I personally think in all likelihood this means the unarmed hobgoblin the elves killed just because wasn't a spy at all; Azure City's remaining defenders might be trying to hold to Good Is Not Dumb, but it seems something that's really biting the resistance in the butt now was assuming they were dealing with someone Stupid Evil enough to have advanced reinforcement systems that make any attack a calculated risk but be unable to disguise their moles.

Vemynal

2012-01-10, 01:31 PM

Crazy idea time - couldn't redcloak cast true resurrection on Xyklon to make him human again and less powerful/easier to control in a fight?

Edric O

2012-01-10, 01:32 PM

True Resurrection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueResurrection.htm)M: As resurrection, plus remains aren’t needed.
This is far more important than Implosion. Now Redcloak is only one daily rest away from
bringing back Right-Eye. Assuming Right-Eye would be interested in returning, of course.

Also: Racist elves finally got what was coming to them. I am pleased.

zimmerwald1915

2012-01-10, 01:32 PM

If you were expecting the resistance to come out of this with some assets intact then clearly we are not at the 'invincible boring villains' level yet. Also, all the good things the resistance had done did mostly include rescuing slaves and those unjustly imprisoned. One could successfully argue that this was all the good the resistance ever did that we ever got notification of. Surely most of those people were smuggled out and are probably alive somewhere. Y'know, unless the goblins made a written message for passing spelljammers somewhere.
Who was expecting the Resistance to come out of this with any assets intact?

As a matter of fact, it indicates a severe lack of genre-savvy that any resistance group exists anywhere in this world. We've been shown two such groups so far: the Azure City Resistance and the Starshines' group. Each time they've shown up they've been presented as ineffectual, easily manipulated (sometimes by the forces they ostensibly oppose, sometimes by third parties), and ideologically and morally misguided. I think the Giant is trying to say something about the appropriate ways to challenge the status quo, or even whether doing so is appropriate at all, even if the major themes of the comic are not so obviously ideological.

stormtemplar

2012-01-10, 01:37 PM

Who was expecting the Resistance to come out of this with any assets intact?

As a matter of fact, it indicates a severe lack of genre-savvy that any resistance group exists anywhere in this world. We've been shown two such groups so far: the Azure City Resistance and the Starshines' group. Each time they've shown up they've been presented as ineffectual, easily manipulated (sometimes by the forces they ostensibly oppose, sometimes by third parties), and ideologically and morally misguided. I think the Giant is trying to say something about the appropriate ways to challenge the status quo, even if the major themes of the comic are not so obviously ideological.

???? I'm confused. We've seen two people in the starshine resistance group, and they are not ideologically misguided no morally so. Tarquin is an obvious and unrepentant evil dictator.

Also:Vemynal

Conjuration (Healing)
Level: Clr 9
Casting Time: 10 minutes
This spell functions like raise dead, except that you can resurrect a creature that has been dead for as long as 10 years per caster level. This spell can even bring back creatures whose bodies have been destroyed, provided that you unambiguously identify the deceased in some fashion (reciting the deceased’s time and place of birth or death is the most common method).

Upon completion of the spell, the creature is immediately restored to full hit points, vigor, and health, with no loss of level (or Constitution points) or prepared spells.

You can revive someone killed by a death effect or someone who has been turned into an undead creature and then destroyed. This spell can also resurrect elementals or outsiders, but it can’t resurrect constructs or undead creatures.

Even true resurrection can’t restore to life a creature who has died of old age.

Material Component
A sprinkle of holy water and diamonds worth a total of at least 25,000 gp.

Peelee

2012-01-10, 01:38 PM

Oh, so the only good goblin is a dead goblin, but the elves killed for joining in this struggle are an unforgivable loss that needs to be avenged, eh? I gotta admit, I didn't really feel too sorry for the commander getting killed at all.*snip*

I don't feel too sorry for his getting killed either. I just don't understand all the rampant cheering for it. Especially when other characters (V being the easiest to bring to mind) have done far, far more despicable things with far fewer repurcussions with no calling for their heads.

And thanks, stormtemplar. Gonna see if I can't find those strips now

CoffeeIncluded

2012-01-10, 01:39 PM

With the "Who was Redcloak talking to?" question solved, here's a little art debate for this strip: A lot of people seem to be saying that Thanh is saying to retreat in the first panel, but I read it as Niu. Then I realized she could have her mouth open in shock.

Thoughts?

I'm pretty sure it's Thanh talking. Dialogue is another extremely important aspect of good characterization--you should be able to tell who's talking even if you can't see it. I can see Thanh saying that more easily than Niu.

Also, nobody deserves to die like that. And I don't understand why people are cheering either. No, wait. I understand, but I don't comprehend.

Edric O

2012-01-10, 01:42 PM

I'm not saying he Elf Commander shouldn't have died. I'm not saying he didn't even deserve to die. I'm saying I don't see why people cheer his death, especially at the hands of actual evil creatures.
Well, I can't speak for anyone else, but I am cheering for Team Goblin because all the evil actions they have been shown to perform were either (a) forced upon them by Xykon, or (b) driven by an understandable desire for vengeance against an enemy that had been murdering goblins without cause for centuries.

I have a soft spot for underdogs who rise up and take their revenge on their former oppressors, even when that revenge is somewhat excessive.

zimmerwald1915

2012-01-10, 01:43 PM

???? I'm confused. We've seen two people in the starshine resistance group, and they are not ideologically misguided no morally so. Tarquin is an obvious and unrepentant evil dictator.
Haley calls her own father's morals out as misguided, and since she operated by that same code until it led her to incredibly severe trauma I think she's in a position to judge.

Aron Times

2012-01-10, 01:43 PM

Crazy idea time - couldn't redcloak cast true resurrection on Xyklon to make him human again and less powerful/easier to control in a fight?

It has a 10 minute casting time and he has to be touching Xykon the whole time. Plus it requires a 25,000 gp diamond to power it. Xykon probably has maxed Spellcraft, so he'll know right away what Redcloak is doing and gank him right then and there.

The MunchKING

2012-01-10, 01:45 PM

I'm not familiar with the preemptive slaying of everything around Azure City. If it's a bonus strip in NCftPB or War & XPs, I won't know if it yet. If it's elsewhere, you'll have to remind me of it. In the latter, though, yes, Giant has said that some paladins fell. Not all. Meaning the justification was, in fact, validated; some paladins just went too far.

I think he's refereing to Soon's Anti Gate crusades (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html) although that actually says he DIDN'T care how far away they were, not that he wiped everthing out around his city.

G-Man Graves

2012-01-10, 01:45 PM

To those getting upset that the resistance got flattened like so many little insects, wasn't it established from early on that even if Haley were still with them, they were completely porked if Xykon or Redcloak ever actually was made to care? That was why, pre-elf arrival, they never did anything so large as hitting a prison.

Friv

2012-01-10, 01:47 PM

Tannhaeuser

2012-01-10, 01:47 PM

I've been thinking about this, and I have to disagree.

Don't forget that the Elven Commander is fighting to liberate a people who are enslaved, murdered, and turned into undead by an aggressor. Don't forget that Redcloak has a mad plan which could very well wind up destroying the world.

The Elven commander was part of the solution, not part of the problem. He may not have been the most admirable soldier or a paladin. But he was fighting for the freedom of the oppressed and for his country. So I don't feel the need to rejoice in his death even if he did have flaws.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Thank you for saying this. It's weird to me that people prefer nihilistic sadists and oppressive fanatics to a mildly ruthless bigot.

Hear, hear.

the_tick_rules

2012-01-10, 01:50 PM

pretty graphic strip.

The MunchKING

2012-01-10, 01:50 PM

Crazy idea time - couldn't redcloak cast true resurrection on Xyklon to make him human again and less powerful/easier to control in a fight?

The body can't be in use for anything else. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0649.html)

Like bone Golems, or Undead.

Laws of Chaos

2012-01-10, 01:50 PM

I don't think Thahn will make it out alive. He basicly said "You Go! I'll hold them off"

Our favorite bard could tell us that for any hero who says the above, death is fairly immediate

I think this may give us hope that he will make it out some how. He did NOT say "I'm right behind you", which is always fatal, he implied that he was fighting till the end, which means he is badass, and will survive and take out half RC's force in doing so! If not, then, yeah he's gone.

Kish

2012-01-10, 01:51 PM

I don't feel too sorry for his getting killed either. I just don't understand all the rampant cheering for it. Especially when other characters (V being the easiest to bring to mind) have done far, far more despicable things with far fewer repurcussions with no calling for their heads.
Urgh. It is always or nearly always a mistake to make assertions that hinge on being able to prove a negative.

In this particular case, a number of people have expressed the desire for Vaarsuvius to, before the end of the story, either go to Hades, not to return, as a classified-as-Neutral-Evil soul, or to be obliterated by the Snarl. I'm one of them. We haven't said anything like that recently because Vaarsuvius' horrific Xykonish atrocity was not recent, and it would be thoroughly obnoxious to post in every strip's discussion thread, "Before we discuss this strip, I just want to establish that I still want Vaarsuvius to pay for what s/he did."

And, when it was current, when people said that, at least one person on this board claimed--equally incorrectly--that it was wrongheaded for anyone to think Vaarsuvius should pay for the Familicide because "no one cared" when Vaarsuvius murdered the adolescent black dragon. Can we please dispense with the claims based on assumptions about Everyone? Forever?

(Also, "actual evil creatures"? You're apparently assuming not only that the Commander wasn't evil, but that everyone on this board shares that assumption. I would advise assuming neither.)

Haley calls her own father's morals out as misguided, and since she operated by that same code until it led her to incredibly severe trauma I think she's in a position to judge.
I don't really think we need someone in the strip to point out, "Never tell anyone who isn't a family member anything about yourself!" is messed up.

JSSheridan

2012-01-10, 01:55 PM

Thanks Giant!

Redcloak can cast 9th level spells. Game over man.

zimmerwald1915

2012-01-10, 01:55 PM

I don't really think we need someone in the strip to point out, "Never tell anyone who isn't a family member anything about yourself!" is messed up.
I wasn't talking to you. I was talking to Peelee, who did demand proof that the morals or ideology guiding the Starshines' resistance were misguided.

EccentricFellow

2012-01-10, 01:56 PM

Heh,heh,heh. Although it is not quite over just yet, gotta hand it to RedCloak, well played. That is one fine down-to-business villain. Hey, I guess he gets his eye back now. That'll be nice for him.

Seriously though, given the forces arrayed against the Order of the Stick, I am not seeing any hope for them, even combined with Nale & co, to make any sort of a dent here. Obviously Rich has it planned out and I look forward to many more twists and turns like this.

From where I am sitting, the main fly in the ointment for Xykon's plans is Tarquin as he obviously has lots of resources to draw from and appears to be the only one capable of actually carrying out a plan successfully to completion.

Anyone who thinks they have Tarquin NALEd down is in for a surprise.

Bwahahahahahahahahahaha.

Kish

2012-01-10, 01:57 PM

I wasn't talking to you. I was talking to Peelee, who did demand proof that the morals or ideology guiding the Starshines' resistance were misguided.
If you think I implied that I think you and I disagree, I didn't mean to, sorry.

If you think I should only quote you if you address me personally...sorry, I disagree. :smalltongue:

^Xykon didn't say Redcloak could regenerate his eye after getting the phylactery back. I doubt very much he will allow it. From Xykon's perspective, it's both a good reminder of Redcloak's place and sheer sadistic fun for Redcloak to see his brother whenever he looks in a mirror.

zimmerwald1915

2012-01-10, 01:59 PM

If you think I implied that I think you and I disagree, I didn't mean to, sorry.

If you think I should only quote you if you address me personally...sorry, I disagree. :smalltongue:
:smallbiggrin: I guess it's a case of "when all you have is an internet forum, every post looks like an argument". Apologies for being needlessly confrontational.

Dr.Epic

2012-01-10, 02:02 PM

The effect in panel 5 was horrible in my opinion.

SoC175

2012-01-10, 02:08 PM

Now, Redcloak, he WILL burn in hell after Durkon righteously bonks him on the head really hard. (Unless he goes with plan B and releases the Snarl, destroying himself, creation, etc.)Unless the Dark One is realy spiteful he'll certainly receive a place of honor in the DO's divine realm even if he eventually fails to execute the plan After all he has been one of his most important mortal champions.

In a D&D world you can get a highly rewarding afterlife for a life of darkest evil if that life pleased the right entities

Peelee

2012-01-10, 02:08 PM

Urgh. It is always or nearly always a mistake to make assertions that hinge on being able to prove a negative.

In this particular case, a number of people have expressed the desire for Vaarsuvius to, before the end of the story, either go to Hades, not to return, as a classified-as-Neutral-Evil soul, or to be obliterated by the Snarl. I'm one of them. We haven't said anything like that recently because Vaarsuvius' horrific Xykonish atrocity was not recent, and it would be thoroughly obnoxious to post in every strip's discussion thread, "Before we discuss this strip, I just want to establish that I still want Vaarsuvius to pay for what s/he did."

And, when it was current, when people said that, at least one person on this board claimed--equally incorrectly--that it was wrongheaded for anyone to think Vaarsuvius should pay for the Familicide because "no one cared" when Vaarsuvius murdered the adolescent black dragon. Can we please dispense with the claims based on assumptions about Everyone? Forever?

That is a valid complaint for someone who has been on this forum for years and was present when those discussions commenced. I, however, only discovered this strip last September (despite what that '09 join date claims... hiccup in the system, I assume), and as much as I've tried, can't quite go back and read up on every single discussion that happened years ago. Aside from that, I do take your point. I brought up V so much because a few posts earlier, V's actions and the repurcussions were brought into play by my debater, not by me, which as I see it opened the door for me to use V's actions as a scale to show how badly the Elf Commander was outweighed in his "despicable actions."

(Also, "actual evil creatures"? You're apparently assuming not only that the Commander wasn't evil, but that everyone on this board shares that assumption. I would advise assuming neither.)
.

Fine. Let's assume neither, and that all we know is he is non-good. The point stands that he was killed by an evil creature, who is far more reprehensible than the elf, and the demonstrably evil creature is cheered.

Well, I can't speak for anyone else, but I am cheering for Team Goblin because all the evil actions they have been shown to perform were either (a) forced upon them by Xykon, or (b) driven by an understandable desire for vengeance against an enemy that had been murdering goblins without cause for centuries.

I have a soft spot for underdogs who rise up and take their revenge on their former oppressors, even when that revenge is somewhat excessive.

Wouldn't your rage be directed at the gods who made them as fodder, then?

BlackDragonKing

2012-01-10, 02:09 PM

I don't feel too sorry for his getting killed either. I just don't understand all the rampant cheering for it. Especially when other characters (V being the easiest to bring to mind) have done far, far more despicable things with far fewer repurcussions with no calling for their heads.

And thanks, stormtemplar. Gonna see if I can't find those strips now

It's not so much that I'm cheering that commander got splattered, but I'm not saddened at all by his death like I am by the impending doom of the Azurites. His little line before the end revealing he's just as big a self-righteous hypocrite as Miko or Redcloak himself is a major aspect of killing any sympathy I have for the character. V did perform Familicide, which is an atrocity s/he will have to answer for one day, but I remain sympathetic to V because right up until that spell I don't think I'd have done any differently than s/he did in the same circumstances to protect my family. Additionally, V seems to at least understand that what s/he did was wrong, or at least that it wasn't the "right" way to use that power, while Miko and the Commander both went to their deaths not really understanding that anything they'd done was wrong. I hate people like that, and if Redcloak dies that way I'm not going to care much either. :smallannoyed:

pendell

2012-01-10, 02:09 PM

In this particular case, a number of people have expressed the desire for Vaarsuvius to, before the end of the story, either go to Hades, not to return, as a classified-as-Neutral-Evil soul, or to be obliterated by the Snarl. I'm one of them. We haven't said anything like that recently because Vaarsuvius' horrific Xykonish atrocity was not recent, and it would be thoroughly obnoxious to post in every strip's discussion thread, "Before we discuss this strip, I just want to establish that I still want Vaarsuvius to pay for what s/he did."

Allow me to go on record as hoping not for the destruction of bad guys but for their redemption. I'm hoping to see Redcloak redeemed. Same with Vaarsuvius. It'd be nice if Belkar or Xykon could be redeemed but the story so far holds very little hope for that.

Part of the reason I read this strip is because it is not a black-and-white morality tale where the knights in shining armor fight irredeemably evil monsters. Just about everyone in this tale, regardless of their alignment, is more subtle than that. Redcloak is a villain, but he has moments of compassion and the glimmerings of a spine. Roy is a hero, but he has arrogance and sarcasm and can make horrific mistakes.

Because of this it is quite possible for heroes to fall and villains to be redeemed. It is that tension, that hope, that keeps me coming back.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

DougTheHead

2012-01-10, 02:10 PM

You ninj'd me... I was about to suggest that, but that Niu switched them out before she gave them to the Paladin chick. Street smarts, you know.

I hope that's how it went, but I have feeling that they're all screwed at this point, so... :smallfrown:

Yeah, given what Haley told Niu, I'd hope she didn't entrust her entire counterintelligence operation to Thanh. Then again, the bad guys did get to the Resistance's HQ.

Peelee

2012-01-10, 02:13 PM

I wasn't talking to you. I was talking to Peelee, who did demand proof that the morals or ideology guiding the Starshines' resistance were misguided.

That was stormtemplar, actually, not me. Same avatar, though. No worries.

Beowulf DW

2012-01-10, 02:14 PM

I have a soft spot for underdogs who rise up and take their revenge on their former oppressors, even when that revenge is somewhat excessive.

Shouldn't you also have a soft spot for V and the Resistance, then? Not making any accusations, just curious.

I am a firm believer in the idea that two wrongs don't make a right, and I think that the average human/elf/dwarf living in the world that Mr. Burlew has created, would probably look at what's happening in Azure City and say something to the effect of, "No wonder we always kept those goblinoids under our heel. Look what they've done when they're free of it."

I'm just trying to introduce some perspective here, people. Racism is never right, and both sides are prone to it. One elf commander kills one hobgoblin in cold blood, and it seems like half the fan-base calls for the blood of the entire elven race. Thousands of hobgoblins participate in the brutal enslavement of an unknown number of innocent Azurites, and everyone seems to forget about it because of the actions of one of the "Good Guys."

P.S. My compliments to Rich Burlew for creating compelling characters with complex moralities that arouse a variety of emotions in a variety of people. Making villains that disgust and simultaneously scare the poo out of me is no mean feat in a stick figure comic. Bravo, sir.

SoC175

2012-01-10, 02:15 PM

The body can't be in use for anything else. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0649.html)

Like bone Golems, or Undead.That's resurrection, true resurrection is more powerful and doesn't need the body.

The "can’t resurrect constructs or undead creatures" part is just one that causes a lot of argument. There are official D&D stories about characters that have been killed, their bodies turned into soulless undead (even intelligent ones) and they had to fight their old bodies after being true resurrected.

That "can’t resurrect constructs or undead creatures" can be read to only mean "as such creatures" -> aka you can not true res vampire to get a resurrected vampire, you would always only get a resurrected human.

stormtemplar

2012-01-10, 02:20 PM

Haley calls her own father's morals out as misguided, and since she operated by that same code until it led her to incredibly severe trauma I think she's in a position to judge.

Oh right, that. Ian's secrecy is misguided, but I don't think that's a comment on resistance. That's Ian being crazy, but Haley applauds/understands the concept of starting a resistance as a whole, which was a good one.

zimmerwald1915

2012-01-10, 02:21 PM

Shouldn't you also have a soft spot for V and the Resistance, then? Not making any accusations, just curious.
I think that at least some of the difference in sympathy can be put down to how the various "underdogs" are portrayed. The Dark One's Plan, and by the transitive property Redcloak's actions in its pursuit, are portrayed as well-thought-out with manageable contingencies guided by an unwavering sense of justice. The Resistance and groups like it are portrayed, again, as ineffectual, easily manipulated, and morally misguided. It is right, on some level, for the villans to act the way they do, and they get rewarded for it in-comic and by the fans' acclaim. It is wrong, unless you are the designated heroes, to stand in their way, and you get punished for it in-comic and by the fans' dsidain.

I'm just trying to introduce some perspective here, people. Racism is never right, and both sides are prone to it. One elf commander kills one hobgoblin in cold blood, and it seems like half the fan-base calls for the blood of the entire elven race. Thousands of hobgoblins participate in the brutal enslavement of an unknown number of innocent Azurites, and everyone seems to forget about it because of the actions of one of the "Good Guys."
I'm sure pre-existing antipathy toward Elves in general (based on previous portrayals in other stories that rubbed people the wrong way) had absolutely nothing to do with this. :smallamused:

EDIT: hey, I just noticed something. When I tried to post this the first time I got an internal server error message. I tried to post it a second time, and was informed that the board blocked it because it was a duplicate of a previous post. The board now prevents accidental double-posting! Whichever admin managed that deserves a pat on the back.

Oh right, that. Ian's secrecy is misguided, but I don't think that's a comment on resistance. That's Ian being crazy, but Haley applauds/understands the concept of starting a resistance as a whole, which was a good one.
What she says is that she understands the urge, not that it is the right thing to do.

The MunchKING

2012-01-10, 02:30 PM

That "can’t resurrect constructs or undead creatures" can be read to only mean "as such creatures" -> aka you can not true res vampire to get a resurrected vampire, you would always only get a resurrected human.

I know, but I'm going with "I think this is how it has been established as working in the OOTS world."

Mixt

2012-01-10, 02:33 PM

I for one am in favor of

1) Burning the entirety of the elven homelands to the ground, confiscating all their riches, and using them to start a mass ressurection of all the dragons killed by the familicide.

2) Trapping V on the plane of "INFINITE AGONY! (Also, knows as "That one place that makes Hell or The Abyss seem outright pleasant in comparison, a place filled with such excruciating pain that even the Devils are unable to match it)" for the rest of eternity

3) Telling the gods to F**k off and feed themselves to The Snarl.

Pantler

2012-01-10, 02:38 PM

Great strip.

Also, the recent frequent updates are to me an indirect proof that the Giant is in good shape (artistically and otherwise), of which I am very glad :smile:

slayerx

2012-01-10, 02:40 PM

I have a soft spot for underdogs who rise up and take their revenge on their former oppressors, even when that revenge is somewhat excessive.

That's nice and all until you realized that the two sides have effectively switched places and the Azure city members are the underdogs and the goblins are the oppressors who enslave humans regardless of their innocence or guilt (most of whom are innocent seeing as they themselves had no role in anything that happened to the goblins).

Valyrian

2012-01-10, 02:41 PM

This is far more important than Implosion. Now Redcloak is only one daily rest away from
bringing back Right-Eye. Assuming Right-Eye would be interested in returning, of course.
Even if Right-Eye wanted to return, I doubt Redcloak would have the balls to risk hearing what he has to say to him.

I think that at least some of the difference in sympathy can be put down to how the various "underdogs" are portrayed. The Dark One's Plan, and by the transitive property Redcloak's actions in its pursuit, are portrayed as well-thought-out with manageable contingencies guided by an unwavering sense of justice. The Resistance and groups like it are portrayed, again, as ineffectual, easily manipulated, and morally misguided. It is right, on some level, for the villans to act the way they do, and they get rewarded for it in-comic and by the fans' acclaim. It is wrong, unless you are the designated heroes, to stand in their way, and you get punished for it in-comic and by the fans' dsidain.
Well-thought-out and just? Have you read SoD?

silas the monk

2012-01-10, 02:46 PM

I'm not reading this thread but I want to lay down a marker so I can be proved wrong.

The goblinoid spy picks up the phylactery and promptly gets eaten by the devil who teleports back to his mastes, the IFCC.

zimmerwald1915

2012-01-10, 02:46 PM

Well-thought-out and just? Have you read SoD?
Yes I have. It's one of the few OOTS books I've actually managed to find and purchase.

And my point did not concern the actual state of things, or how many holes the fans can poke in characters' delusions if they choose, but how the Plan and the resistances are portrayed. The way things have been shown to us, it is more appropriate for villans to act villanously than it is for non-heroes to resist them in the way the Azure City Resistance and the Starshines' resistance have chosen to do.

Doug Lampert

2012-01-10, 02:47 PM

one, plus one domain spell, plus one bonus spell if he has a wisdom score of at least 28 (which is unlikely)

Why is it unlikely? It's should be considered ROUTINE and EXPECTED for a pure cleric at that level.

Especially given that the Red Cloak stops physical aging so Redcloak probably has a +3 bonus from age. He could have STARTED as low as 15 Wis and still hit a bonus spell without any inherent bonus or any epic items, just the wisdom boost that a non-epic item he can make can grant.

Inherent bonuses are well within even NPC WBL for him, and epic items he can make with assistance from Xykon.

And he's wearing an artifact intended to boost clerics.

Redcloak not having a bonus spell is astonishingly unlikely even in the barely optimized world of the OotS.

Peelee

2012-01-10, 02:50 PM

I think that at least some of the difference in sympathy can be put down to how the various "underdogs" are portrayed. The Dark One's Plan, and by the transitive property Redcloak's actions in its pursuit, are portrayed as well-thought-out with manageable contingencies guided by an unwavering sense of justice. The Resistance and groups like it are portrayed, again, as ineffectual, easily manipulated, and morally misguided. It is right, on some level, for the villans to act the way they do, and they get rewarded for it in-comic and by the fans' acclaim. It is wrong, unless you are the designated heroes, to stand in their way, and you get punished for it in-comic and by the fans' dsidain.

O-Chul. Not a designated hero to go against the baddies, stands in their way, manages a nearly game-changing act (ditching the phylactery.... it being found again later has no bearing on how huge a thing that was at the time), and got massive fan acclaim. And yeah, I know there are always exceptions and whatnot, but I got massive O-Chul love, so I couldn't resist.

I'm sure pre-existing antipathy toward Elves in general (based on previous portrayals in other stories that rubbed people the wrong way) had absolutely nothing to do with this. :smallamused:

Ahhhhh. My only familiarity with fantasy is D&D, Dragon Age: Origins, and the first half of Fellowship of the Rings. If pre-existing Elf-rage is even a tiny part of any of this, well, that makes things a lot more understandable.

EDIT: hey, I just noticed something. When I tried to post this the first time I got an internal server error message. I tried to post it a second time, and was informed that the board blocked it because it was a duplicate of a previous post. The board now prevents accidental double-posting! Whichever admin managed that deserves a pat on the back.

I totally noticed that too! Huge fan of it, since I've been having erratic server issues all day so far

Giggling Ghast

2012-01-10, 02:50 PM

The outcome was inevitable, but it's a bit depressing, all the same.

Ravian

2012-01-10, 02:51 PM

I'm in the opinion that Redcloak is much more deserving of scorn than the elf commander. Redcloak is an admitted speciest and has performed much worse atrocities then killing a single person because of a lack of trust due to race. The tower prisoner rift experiment immediately springs to mind. In my opinion racism is a horrible trait, no matter how "justified" it is, and it is the cause of absolutely horrible atrocities, but it does not immediately makes a group or individual a villian, it is how far they go with their racism that makes them evil.

For example in Skyrim, both the Stormcloaks and the Forsworn exhibit racism and on the surface they appear to have the same basic goal, liberate and rule their own land. However their methods are what set the two apart, Stormcloaks, while surely having more than a few bigots among them, do not mercilessly slaughter non-nords, and most every race can find a place in their cities, (even if the quality may be less than satisfying for some). Meanwhile the Forsworn have a very similar plight to the Stormcloaks, but instead they choose to murder any one who stands in their way, and specifically state that their goal is to kill/drive out every Nord in the reach.

In my opinion Redcloak has gone the Forsworn route, when the potential for a less violent form of settlement is possible, meanwhile the Elf commander was flawed but still basically an ally.

Kish

2012-01-10, 02:52 PM

Yes I have. It's one of the few OOTS books I've actually managed to find and purchase.

And my point did not concern the actual state of things, or how many holes the fans can poke in characters' delusions if they choose, but how the Plan and the resistances are portrayed.
Yeah, I agree with Valyrian. Redcloak's brother poked plenty holes in Redcloak's delusions, no fan interpretation needed--beyond not thinking, "Redcloak is right, his brother is wrong," which would be aggressively turning away from what has been presented to us.

^The commander's tag line was, "Good goblins are dead goblins." How exactly do you figure he wasn't thoroughly Forsworn in your analogy? Yes, he was an ally to the Resistance against the goblins. What of it?

pendell

2012-01-10, 02:59 PM

The tower prisoner rift experiment immediately springs to mind.

Point of order; that was a bluff. No humans were actually harmed. Redcloak threatened to throw them into the Rift, but when O-chul still refused Redcloak sent them back to their cells unharmed.

Not disagreeing that Redcloak isn't a self-admitted speciesist who would be happy to wipe out the entire human race (as he did when O-chul commented about the "peace of the grave" and Redcloak replies "exactly"). But that particular example isn't a good one.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Beowulf DW

2012-01-10, 03:00 PM

Adama

2012-01-10, 03:02 PM

This is far more important than Implosion. Now Redcloak is only one daily rest away from
bringing back Right-Eye. Assuming Right-Eye would be interested in returning, of course.

Exactly what I was thinking. Not to mention Right-Eye's family who was slaughtered. Something tells me it won't happen, though--if it did, it would likely be the end of Redcloak's story. Either because he's won and wants to make everything better, or because he's given up on The Plan and wants to live a normal life.

Peelee

2012-01-10, 03:06 PM

Point of order; that was a bluff. No humans were actually harmed. Redcloak threatened to throw them into the Rift, but when O-chul still refused Redcloak sent them back to their cells unharmed.

Not disagreeing that Redcloak isn't a self-admitted speciesist who would be happy to wipe out the entire human race (as he did when O-chul commented about the "peace of the grave" and Redcloak replies "exactly"). But that particular example isn't a good one.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

I'm not so sure. It seemed more like Redcloak was entirely planning on tossing them into the rift, because why not? He just figured he could send them back down so they could sew dissent among other prisoners by telling that even the last remaining Paladin had abandoned them.

Could easily be wrong on that. I was hoping that would be at least a non-tiny plot point for the Resistance when they started freeing prisoners and slaves, but looks like that won't be the case

Fergurg

2012-01-10, 03:08 PM

Kish

2012-01-10, 03:08 PM

In regards to the racism of the elf, I think everybody is forgetting an important detail about the world of OoTS:

Goblins are evil!

In the same way that Vaarsuvius is Chaotic Good and Belkar is True Neutral.

Fergurg

2012-01-10, 03:09 PM

We do not know much about the elves' creation, nor the halflings, but the account given by the high priest of the god of the goblins SAID that the goblins were created for the purpose of being evil opposition.

The closest we ever saw to goblins that weren't evil was waaaaay back near the beginning, in Durkon's dungeon, where there were goblins acting out in teenage rebellion - and even then, they acknowledged that it was just a phase they were going through.

ghoul-n

2012-01-10, 03:12 PM

Any means for OotS to counter blunt Superb Dispelling/Implosion/Meteor Swarm spam combo :\?

Beowulf DW

2012-01-10, 03:12 PM

For example in Skyrim, both the Stormcloaks and the Forsworn exhibit racism and on the surface they appear to have the same basic goal, liberate and rule their own land. However their methods are what set the two apart, Stormcloaks, while surely having more than a few bigots among them, do not mercilessly slaughter non-nords, and most every race can find a place in their cities, (even if the quality may be less than satisfying for some). Meanwhile the Forsworn have a very similar plight to the Stormcloaks, but instead they choose to murder any one who stands in their way, and specifically state that their goal is to kill/drive out every Nord in the reach.

The only reason the Forsworn do those things is because the Nords tried to do the same thing to them. When they rose up and drove the Nords out during the war with the Aldmeri Dominion, they were quite merciful to the Nords and other races (with the exception of the Nords who had been excessively cruel). After two years of having their land back, Ulfric and his militia came in and slaughtered or enslaved every Forsworn they found, then they put to death everyone else, Nords and Forsworn alike, who didn't side with him during the fight. The elderly, women, and any child strong enough to wield a blade was put to death because of Ulfric's policy of "If you're not with me you're against me." This was one of the reasons I sided with the Legion.

I may be getting a little off topic here, but there are definitely parallels in the situation if anyone cares to find them

Peelee

2012-01-10, 03:14 PM

In regards to the racism of the elf, I think everybody is forgetting an important detail about the world of OoTS:

Goblins are evil!

They were made to be evil, and they live to be evil. Their god, the Dark One, is evil. The only reason they exist is to be evil. Therefore, the standard opposition to genocide does not apply because the only good goblin IS a dead goblin.

It may not be fair, as they did not have a choice in the matter. But then again, neither does cancer, and we use radiation poisoning to kill it.

Well, usually evil. They do have a choice, they are just much more inclined to be evil. So I'd think the standard opposition to genocide is still applicable. Or it would be, if there was any genocide or even attempted genocide in the strip. The closest anything has come to that has been familicide.

Kish

2012-01-10, 03:15 PM

We do not know much about the elves' creation, nor the halflings, but the account given by the high priest of the god of the goblins SAID that the goblins were created for the purpose of being evil opposition.
No.

No, it didn't.

It says goblins were created to be killed by the player races. Not at all the same thing as what you're claiming.

zimmerwald1915

2012-01-10, 03:29 PM

Yeah, I agree with Valyrian. Redcloak's brother poked plenty holes in Redcloak's delusions, no fan interpretation needed--beyond not thinking, "Redcloak is right, his brother is wrong," which would be aggressively turning away from what has been presented to us.
Taken to PM, for reasons explained therein.

Thank you for the clarification. I don't necessarily agree with you on everything, but I think I understand where you're coming from.
Thank you in turn. I think I'll bow out of this particular thread of the discussion at that.

Could easily be wrong on that. I was hoping that would be at least a non-tiny plot point for the Resistance when they started freeing prisoners and slaves, but looks like that won't be the case.
Depends on how many humans that were not part of the Resistance as such are left within the city walls, really. If most of the 200,000+ humans that couldn't evacuate were enslaved, then their passive resistance (work slowdown, sabotage, etc.) on a massive scale might have some impact on Gobbotopia's economy. If most of the humans were killed and only a small portion of the original population remains alive and enslaved, then whatever they do is just as pointless as the actions of the Resistance itself.

kracken

2012-01-10, 03:33 PM

I don't know why, but every time Rich updates the comic I start to drool a little and I have to force back my excitement. I am very sad to see the resistance get destroyed so easily. Oh well :smallconfused:

Edhelras

2012-01-10, 03:35 PM

Noooo! Somebody just killed his - my - darlings!

How could he do that? Those uber-cool elven commandos, they made me leave work and go home to play DnD every time I saw them... I wanted to be like them... Now I don't, anymore... *yuck*

(Actually I think I envision how Implosion looks like much better now, than I did before reading this stick comic. What a feat by the artist!)

Just to make it clear: Did any of the named characters die this day? Is Thahn and Niu still alive - were all those dead Azurites unnamed? Just to check if that "names matter (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0472.html)"-rule holds true still.

Argh. The Giant could just have mailed me, I could've come up with lots of nice names for that elven commander and all those cool elves of his on the fly.... Then they would've been saved...
I say, it's pretty tough to kill off such a bunch of great characters in just one comic. A tragic day for OOTS, on line with the tragedy of Gannji and Enor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0783.html).

thereaper

2012-01-10, 03:36 PM

The difference between RC, V, and the elf commander is that the first two recognize that what they did was wrong. V responds to it by trying to become a better person. RC responds to it by deciding that if being a monster is what is necessary to save his people, then so be it. And the more evil he commits, the more essential it is that he sticks to The Plan, as it is his only hope for justifying the horrors he has already committed.

The elf commander, though he doesn't commit nearly the same kinds of atrocities as the first two, doesn't think that he does is wrong.

So, we have a repentant monster, a monster for a cause, and a guy who does far less evil yet has no moral justification whatsoever for the evil he does do. Some people consider the latter more repulsive than the formers. For some, it's the other way around.

Sandman

2012-01-10, 03:49 PM

I find the number of people that feel the need to express how happy they are that the elven commander died really ironic, considering he was killed by perhaps the greatest example of a racist in this comic.

So, we have a repentant monster, a monster for a cause, and a guy who does far less evil yet has no moral justification whatsoever for the evil he does do
How is killing a goblin that was propably a spy, and even if it wasn't invaded the city and killed people, and would surely endager their mission "not morally justified"? :smallconfused:

pendell

2012-01-10, 03:51 PM

In the same way that Vaarsuvius is Chaotic Good and Belkar is True Neutral.

I must disagree; Vaarsuvius and Belkar are individuals. Goblins on average are usually neutral evil (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/goblin.htm). Hobgoblins are usually lawful evil (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/hobgoblin.htm).

I forget what exactly that means, but IIRC it means that 70%+ of the species holds that alignment, and most of the rest are within one step of that.

That is a fact set by the laws of the game world.

Of course, that raises an interesting question of predestination vs. free will, how some huge percentage of the race are "made evil" , as it were. And one could reasonably ask "what kind of crazy world is this, anyway? What were the gods thinking?"

But the fact that the situation is crazy doesn't change the fact that it does still exist. Goblins and hobgoblins as an average group are evil is an objective fact in the game world.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

The Pilgrim

2012-01-10, 03:58 PM

This is far more important than Implosion. Now Redcloak is only one daily rest away from
bringing back Right-Eye. Assuming Right-Eye would be interested in returning, of course.

Redcloak doesn't have the balls to do that and face his departed brother.

A brother who would undoubtely attempt to kill Xykon, and chances are good that would try to kill Redcloak first. Remember that his dying words were "goodbye, Redcloak", he addressed him not by his goblin name, or as "brother", but with the humiliating nick Xykon used to address him with. He no longer saw Redcloak as his brother, but just as Xykon's pet.

Harbajar

2012-01-10, 03:58 PM

:smalleek: :smalleek: :smalleek:

Only half right - someone tried to cast a spell (just not Tele-).

Poor Resistance:smallfrown:

But the text for Implosion is awesome!

KoboldRevenge

2012-01-10, 03:59 PM

Well that was... Horrifying.

Giant you are getting better at that gore and action shoots!:smalleek:

Kish

2012-01-10, 04:00 PM

I must disagree; Vaarsuvius and Belkar are individuals. Goblins on average are usually neutral evil (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/goblin.htm). Hobgoblins are usually lawful evil (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/hobgoblin.htm).

I forget what exactly that means, but IIRC it means that 70%+ of the species holds that alignment, and most of the rest are within one step of that.

It means that at least 50% of the species is that alignment.

It can mean "most of the rest are close to that alignment" or "49.9% of the species is diametrically opposed to the alignment."

And what Fergurg said is:

The only reason they exist is to be evil. Therefore, the standard opposition to genocide does not apply because the only good goblin IS a dead goblin.

Which is exactly as true as "All halflings, including Belkar, are True Neutral, the only good or evil halfling is a dead halfling" or, "All elves are Chaotic Good."

Jagos

2012-01-10, 04:01 PM

So now there's a seventeenth-level cleric in the world.

On another note, there is now conclusive proof that no one in the Resistance was genre-savvy at all. How did they not expect a betrayal from the guy with that widow's peak? :smalltongue:

*ahem*

Paladins...

Timberboar

2012-01-10, 04:03 PM

How is killing a goblin that was propably a spy, and even if it wasn't invaded the city and killed people, and would surely endager their mission "not morally justified"? :smallconfused:

I bolded the key word there.

Killing someone because they MIGHT be or do something is never morally justified. If you go down that route, well, you might as well kill everyone now. After all, any one of them MIGHT wrong you some day.

CelestialMagpie

2012-01-10, 04:05 PM

Noooo! :smalleek:

So what was the point of those two strips showing the theft? I mean really, they didn't even get the chance to do...anything! I'm so not happy with the expediency of this. It feels too easy.

Sandman

2012-01-10, 04:05 PM

Too bad you didn't get to the second half of my sentence?

Randomguy

2012-01-10, 04:07 PM

The best part of this comic was how subtly foreshadowed it was. Looking back to comic 707, there's a bald human who doesn't seem very happy about being freed. Looks like he grew some hair since then.

*Kicks self for not noticing earlier*

I guess that's what the resistance gets for not using detect magic on all rescued prisoners.

Maybe the resistance being wiped out is, in the long term, a good thing? Redcloak, Tsukiko and Xykon are leaving Gobbotopia soon, and probably won't come back right away if they fail to take the gate. How many innocent (or mostly innocent) goblins would die without protection against the resistance?

Gobbotopia is the first step towards goblin equality, and it would be a shame to see it fall. Goblins have a level playing field now, they have an opportunity to prosper. The hard part would be convincing the Azurites it would be better to rebuild rather than reconquer.

About the elf killing the hobgoblin prisoner: It seems like a mostly neutral act. He was a criminal (he was sent to jail for a reason, remember?), and he would probably betray them. The best course of action would have been to send him back to his cell, but that would have wasted time and jeopardised the mission. Why aren't people more concerned about the completely innocent hobgoblin couple that was shot down off panel just for getting in the way? (strip 708 panel 3) I'm not glad the elf died, but better him than Thanh or Niu.

Juggling Goth

2012-01-10, 04:10 PM

Too tired to read eight pages, so I'm sure someone's said this already. New art thingie (I work in an art school! Bwahahaha!) in the 'implosion' panel! Nice!

WebTiefling

2012-01-10, 04:12 PM

I've read through some of the pages of comments, but not all of them. That said, I haven't seen anyone put forward this possibility yet:

The Resistance was NOT caught by surprise by the polymorphed goblin spy. They were keeping an eye on him - better to keep the spy you know about than to kill him and have another one sent in where you don't know. All these paladins have Detect Evil - I'm sure someone noticed that this guy has some evil mojo going on. Besides, his gloating nearly ensures that he'll get nailed.

So, behind him comes another of the resistance paladins, beheads the polymorphed spy and retakes the phylactery. He knows he can't take on the Pit Fiend/Horned Devil/whatever, and so he destroys the phylactery even as the Devil eats him!

Smite Evil on the phylactery, damaging but not destroying!
Get sliced to 1 hp by the Devil.
Desperate last chance: Critical Hit Smite Evil on Phylactery!
Dies to the Devil while Xykon screams "NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!"

Good guys have a moment of awesome. Bad guys are set back but not stopped.

pendell

2012-01-10, 04:12 PM

It means that at least 50% of the species is that alignment.

It can mean "most of the rest are close to that alignment" or "49.9% of the species is diametrically opposed to the alignment."

And what Fergurg said is:

Which is exactly as true as "All halflings, including Belkar, are True Neutral, the only good or evil halfling is a dead halfling" or, "All elves are Chaotic Good."

I see. Now that there is a bit more context, I find I agree with you. I beg your indulgence ,as there are a lot of posts and I haven't read them all ).

Respectfully,

Brian P.

The Pilgrim

2012-01-10, 04:14 PM

Would V's selling his soul be tolerated by a LG character?

No. That's why she didn't tell about it to any of her fellow party members.

Also, V was lectured for murdering Kubota. Are you equating that lecture and the death by implosion of the Elf Commander to be the same level payback for their deeds? Would the Elf Commander's actions have been alright if he had just been given a stern talking to?

V killing Kubota was part of her descent to madness. And I'm pretty certain that V will get some heavy payback from her actions in Don't Split the Party.

Anyway, V is a main character in the strip. We have seen a lot from her, noble things, good deeds, and we also saw her commit an abhorrent aberration as the conclusion of a well plotted descent into darkness. There were grounds to build a sympathy for her before her fall, and there have been grounds to rebuild the sympathy after her fall.

The Elf Commander? The only notable, character-defining thing we have seen him to do, was the murder of a helpless prisoner in cold blood for no reason beyond pure racism. Sorry if I didn't get a lot of sympathy for him.

I'm not familiar with the preemptive slaying of everything around Azure City. If it's a bonus strip in NCftPB or War & XPs, I won't know if it yet. If it's elsewhere, you'll have to remind me of it. In the latter, though, yes, Giant has said that some paladins fell. Not all. Meaning the justification was, in fact, validated; some paladins just went too far.

It was not validated. The Twelve Goods, and the leader of Azure City, allowed those Paladins to get away with murder at the price of just having to hand back their badges until they managed to be cast an atonement spell. That kind of actitude was what lead Azure City to get a huge Karma Payback, as the Giant himself pointed out.

I'm not saying he Elf Commander shouldn't have died. I'm not saying he didn't even deserve to die. I'm saying I don't see why people cheer his death, especially at the hands of actual evil creatures.

I'm not happy with Redcloak killing people with Implosion, I'm just happy to see a swine take what was coming to him. Who killed him is pointless.

LordofNaught

2012-01-10, 04:19 PM

I take back what I said earlier. This is the end of the story that was the Azure City Underground. Ugh, what a way to go, Implosion. And being ripped in half, the Giant didn't spare the brutality.

Timberboar

2012-01-10, 04:21 PM

Too bad you didn't get to the second half of my sentence?

You mean the part based solely on the target's species?

Yeah, that's supporting evidence all right.

Kish

2012-01-10, 04:21 PM

Meaning the justification was, in fact, validated; some paladins just went too far.
:smallsigh: I didn't notice this until someone else quoted it, but...

No. This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8081896&postcount=21) is what Rich said; I'm reposting it below so I can bold specific words that disprove this claim.

Oooo! Oooo! I know this one!

The events of Start of Darkness are not a narrative being told by Redcloak, except for the crayon pages (which totally are). You are right, your friend is wrong. Everything you see happened.

However, everything that happened is not necessarily seen.

Suffice to say that the Twelve Gods are not beholden to put on the same visual display they did for Miko for every paladin who transgresses, and that all transgressions are not created equal. It is possible that some of the paladins who participated in the attack crossed the line. It is also possible that most did not. A paladin who slips up in the execution of their god-given orders does not warrant the same level of personal attention by the gods as one who executes the legal ruler of their nation on a glorified hunch. Think of Miko's Fall as being the equivalent of the CEO of your multinational company showing up in your cubicle to fire you, because you screwed up THAT much.

Of course, while Redcloak is not narrating the scene, it is shown mostly from his perspective; we don't see how many Detect Evils were used before the attack started, and we don't see how many paladins afterwards try to heal their wounds and can't, because these things are not important to Redcloak's story. Whether or not some of the paladins Fell does not bring Redcloak's family back to life. Indeed, if we transplant the scene to real life, he would think it cold comfort that some of the police officers who gunned down his family had to turn in their badge afterward (but were otherwise given no punishment by their bosses at City Hall).

Dramatically, showing no-name paladins Falling at that point in the story would confuse the narrative by making it unclear whether or not Redcloak had already earned a form of retribution against them. To be clear, he had not: Whether or not some of them lost a few class abilities does not change the fact that Redcloak suffered an injustice at their hands, one that shaped his entire adult life. That was the point of the scene. Showing them Fall or not simply was not important to Redcloak's story, so it was omitted.

Further, it would have cheapened Miko's fall to show the same thing over and over--and Miko, as a major character in the series, deserved the emotional weight that her Fall carried (or at least that I hope it carried).

I hope that clears this issue up. I hope in vain, largely, but there you have it.

(Oh, and I leave it up to the readers to form their own opinions on which paladins may have Fallen and which didn't.)

The justification was considered valid by the Twelve Gods, who apparently don't mind their servants being bloodthirsty, but draw a line...Somewhere. In a place which isn't approved of by the author and needn't be approved by any reader.

zimmerwald1915

2012-01-10, 04:22 PM

We have seen a lot from her, noble things, good deeds
Where and when? V's character arc so far has been her descent into madness and her misunderstanding what she needs to atone for.

toughluck

2012-01-10, 04:23 PM

Well, I can't speak for anyone else, but I am cheering for Team Goblin because all the evil actions they have been shown to perform were either (a) forced upon them by Xykon, or (b) driven by an understandable desire for vengeance against an enemy that had been murdering goblins without cause for centuries.

I have a soft spot for underdogs who rise up and take their revenge on their former oppressors, even when that revenge is somewhat excessive.
I don't think you've read SoD, but if you had, you would know a and b are wrong.
(a) Redcloak is in a vicious circle, being responsible for Xykon becoming a lich and also all his subsequent actions. He's invested so much in Xykon and justified so much evil that I don't understand how you can defend his actions.
(b) No. He's driven by the Crimson Mantle more than anything else. The 'vengeance' for murdering 'without' cause explanation is flaky at best, and patently false if you take a deeper look at it. The cause is obvious -- the Bearer of the Crimson Mantle is a threat to all creation, and there has been NO meticulously planned genocide waged against goblins before the gates were created and Dark One created the Crimson Mantle. These plans doomed the goblins, not some specieism.
I'd love to be proven wrong, though. Show me where the Sapphire Guard waged an unprovoked war against goblinkind.

Blas_de_Lezo

2012-01-10, 04:24 PM

Ha I knew there also was a polymorphed infiltrator! Dumbass elves!

Although I thought the infiltrator was another one... :smalltongue:

Suck on that, fascists!

Sandman

2012-01-10, 04:34 PM

You mean the part based solely on the target's species?

Yeah, that's supporting evidence all right.

How did hobgoblins get to azure city again?
Also what did you expect? Getting him into the resistance because he said he would help them to save his own life?
He had to die, and the commander chose to kill him while giving an inglourious basterds style show for his troops.

The thing that strikes me as ironic as I said before is not the hate there is for him on the forums, but the fact that he was killed by someone that used his own race as lemmings (his own words), and still people find it appropriate to cheer for him.

The MunchKING

2012-01-10, 04:38 PM

About the elf killing the hobgoblin prisoner: It seems like a mostly neutral act. He was a criminal (he was sent to jail for a reason, remember?), and he would probably betray them.

He wasn't even thrown in jail for a reason that would hint he was Good (like preventing beatings or stopping prisoner abuse), no he was thrown in jail for roughing up some new Goblin. Here's the kicker. He said he did because he hated "greenskins". He was only slightly less racist than the guy that killed him (because the "greenskin" didn't die). He was, probably, as evil as the average Hobgoblin, and just didn't like the guys in charge.

COULD he have helped?? Maybe. But the odds were good on getting betrayed one way or the other.

LtNOWIS

2012-01-10, 04:42 PM

I'm not saying the eld commander wasn't racist, but if you're racist against hobbos, are part of a guerilla insurgency group fighting against an invasion force of only hobbos, come up on a hobbo who is a huge risk of being a spy, and kill the hobbo to protect the security of the organization, I would be hard pressed to call him a "genocidal maniac."
People keep using that word. It doesn't apply (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0451.html).

Blas_de_Lezo

2012-01-10, 04:47 PM

Thank you for saying this. It's weird to me that people prefer nihilistic sadists and oppressive fanatics to a mildly ruthless bigot.

Excuse me, but murdering innocents and race genocide, even for the cause of good, it's still opressively fanatic.

Peelee

2012-01-10, 04:47 PM

No. That's why she didn't tell about it to any of her fellow party members.

V killing Kubota was part of her descent to madness. And I'm pretty certain that V will get some heavy payback from her actions in Don't Split the Party.

Anyway, V is a main character in the strip. We have seen a lot from her, noble things, good deeds, and we also saw her commit an abhorrent aberration as the conclusion of a well plotted descent into darkness. There were grounds to build a sympathy for her before her fall, and there have been grounds to rebuild the sympathy after her fall.

The Elf Commander? The only notable, character-defining thing we have seen him to do, was the murder of a helpless prisoner in cold blood for no reason beyond pure racism. Sorry if I didn't get a lot of sympathy for him.

It was not validated. The Twelve Goods, and the leader of Azure City, allowed those Paladins to get away with murder at the price of just having to hand back their badges until they managed to be cast an atonement spell. That kind of actitude was what lead Azure City to get a huge Karma Payback, as the Giant himself pointed out.

I'm not happy with Redcloak killing people with Implosion, I'm just happy to see a swine take what was coming to him. Who killed him is pointless.

I'm actually satisfied with the answer supplied by thereaper (spoilered to keep needless length down):
The difference between RC, V, and the elf commander is that the first two recognize that what they did was wrong. V responds to it by trying to become a better person. RC responds to it by deciding that if being a monster is what is necessary to save his people, then so be it. And the more evil he commits, the more essential it is that he sticks to The Plan, as it is his only hope for justifying the horrors he has already committed.

The elf commander, though he doesn't commit nearly the same kinds of atrocities as the first two, doesn't think that he does is wrong.

So, we have a repentant monster, a monster for a cause, and a guy who does far less evil yet has no moral justification whatsoever for the evil he does do. Some people consider the latter more repulsive than the formers. For some, it's the other way around.

R. Shackleford

2012-01-10, 04:47 PM

Can't argue with Elves. Imploding them gets the argument across better.

I wonder if that spells the end of the Azure City Liberation?

I always hate seeing competent side characters meet bad ends. Oh well. It only makes me want to see another confrontation between Team Evil and the Order even more.

Peelee

2012-01-10, 04:53 PM

People keep using that word. It doesn't apply (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0451.html).

Meh. Semantics. We all know what we mean, and "speciesist" doesn't come as naturally to us as it would in the OotS world.

Blas_de_Lezo

2012-01-10, 04:54 PM

The idea is that, if the Snarl is ever released, the gods will just execute their plan B, and remake the prison (a.k.a. destroying the world themselves, and rebuilding it around the Snarl again). The Dark One, being a god, would be included in the creation process, and thus would be able to give goblins a proper role in the new world. So Redcloak would get himself unmade, but ensure the creation of a world where goblins are not living XP sacks.

And that's making a really BIG sacrifice to help the innocent... one of the definitions of good. And wait, I'm not saying RC is good aligned, don't get me wrong, only that he is able to do a true sacrifice: he's eager to be undone, to save an entire race (but it looks similar to a bearded-long haired-white cloacked-kind guy that we know, doesn't he?) :smallbiggrin:

Chirios

2012-01-10, 04:56 PM

YES!!!!!

Get in Redcloak, take down the MAN!

Peelee

2012-01-10, 04:57 PM

And that's making a really BIG sacrifice to help the innocent... one of the definitions of good. And wait, I'm not saying RC is good aligned, don't get me wrong, only that he is able to do a true sacrifice: he's eager to be undone, to save an entire race (but it looks similar to a bearded-long haired-white cloacked-kind guy that we know, doesn't he?) :smallbiggrin:

Well, it's not his sacrifice. He's sacrificing the lives of all the living goblins (not to mention the lives of every other sentient creature in the world) for that. So I'd take issue with the plan being a definition of good.

Blas_de_Lezo

2012-01-10, 05:06 PM

This is far more important than Implosion. Now Redcloak is only one daily rest away from
bringing back Right-Eye. Assuming Right-Eye would be interested in returning, of course.

Interesting... very interesting. Could make a good story. It can resurrect creatures dead up to 10 years per caster level, so at least in theory, it can be made.

But I think RC wouldn't resurrect Right Eye so quick. In case he thought about it, he'll wait for the proper moment

137beth

2012-01-10, 05:06 PM

RWB

2012-01-10, 05:10 PM

Niu seems dead, so let's see how Thanh fares.

Going by color, that isn't Niu in the seventh Panel.

Niu has a dark-grey shoulder pad and black clothes. The dead Paladin has a light grey shoulder pad and grey clothes.

Could just be an art mistake, though, so I'm not gonna say Niu is alive just yet.

Blas_de_Lezo

2012-01-10, 05:21 PM

I must disagree; Vaarsuvius and Belkar are individuals. Goblins on average are usually neutral evil (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/goblin.htm). Hobgoblins are usually lawful evil (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/hobgoblin.htm).

I forget what exactly that means, but IIRC it means that 70%+ of the species holds that alignment, and most of the rest are within one step of that.

No.

Talking of goblins, as there are 9 alignments it means, that at least slightly more than 11,1% are neutral evil. And slightly more than 33,3% are of any evil alignment.

Making slightly less than 66,6% non-evil alignment.

With hobgoblins happens the same, but in lawful evil variant.

But even if you were right and "usually evil" meant 70%, it still should be an terrible evil act to genocide a whole town "just in case".

Chobarth

2012-01-10, 05:23 PM

But... I LIKE the elf commander. Does Implosion fail on a successful save? Because Thahn is gonna get lucky. Very lucky. So yeah, I agree with previous posters on Thahn. When the paladin says to run, you away. And keep running 'till you hit the sea. :smallbiggrin:

I haven't read this entire thread, I'm about half done. So apologies if this is already pointed out. But I keep seeing people say over and over "The Paladin this; the paladin that; about retreating."

Fact of the matter is, he didn't say a thing - he was shocked and speechless. Our favorite fighter / rogue said that. Just look at the open mouths.

The Pilgrim

2012-01-10, 05:26 PM

Going by color, that isn't Niu in the seventh Panel.

Niu has a dark-grey shoulder pad and black clothes. The dead Paladin has a light grey shoulder pad and grey clothes.

Could just be an art mistake, though, so I'm not gonna say Niu is alive just yet.

That corpse on panel #8 isn't Niu. It's the corpse of a generic azurite girl soldier. It is present, laying dead, at the bottom left of the big panel in the previous strip. In fact, the corpse of the generic azurite guy soldier present a little above the girl's corpse in said big panel, can be also seen in panel #8, above the girl's corpse, and partially covered by Thanh's speech balloon.

silversaraph

2012-01-10, 05:26 PM

The geekery thread must be so happy.

Ravian

2012-01-10, 05:27 PM

The only reason the Forsworn do those things is because the Nords tried to do the same thing to them. When they rose up and drove the Nords out during the war with the Aldmeri Dominion, they were quite merciful to the Nords and other races (with the exception of the Nords who had been excessively cruel). After two years of having their land back, Ulfric and his militia came in and slaughtered or enslaved every Forsworn they found, then they put to death everyone else, Nords and Forsworn alike, who didn't side with him during the fight. The elderly, women, and any child strong enough to wield a blade was put to death because of Ulfric's policy of "If you're not with me you're against me." This was one of the reasons I sided with the Legion.

I may be getting a little off topic here, but there are definitely parallels in the situation if anyone cares to find them

I'm not saying Ulfric was in the right (even though I did side Stormcloak), in fact he behaved much like the sapphire guard did to the goblins, however I do not agree that either the goblins or the forsworn are in the right in either of the situations. Sure both the stormcloaks and the sapphire guard brutally slaughtered civilians of the forsworn and goblins respectively, however such is not justification for either the murders of the Nords of Markrarth or the enslavement of the Azurites, again respectively.
The fact remains that both are threats to decent people, and their rage is scarce justification to continue the cycle of violence. In the words of Ghandi, an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.

Gamgee

2012-01-10, 05:29 PM

Predictable, but in a good way. :smallamused:

RLivengood

2012-01-10, 05:29 PM

It seems a little early for them to show up again, but with the spy's shirt and crossbow, plus the eyes and size of that monster that killed the guy with the phylactary, I'm wondering if those two are Gannji and Enor.

Beowulf DW

2012-01-10, 05:33 PM

*words of justice*

I'm not saying that either the Forsworn or the Goblins are right in what they do, I'm just saying that their reasons are somewhat understandable. When it seems like there is no justice in the world, why bother trying to be just yourself? It's easier to simply rage and let the world share in your misery.

pendell

2012-01-10, 05:34 PM

No.

Talking of goblins, as there are 9 alignments it means, that at least slightly more than 11,1% are neutral evil. And slightly more than 33,3% are of any evil alignment.

Making slightly less than 66,6% non-evil alignment.

Are you sure? I did some googling and all I can find is this less than authoritative source (http://www.wowwiki.com/Alignment)

* Always: All races of this sort have the indicated alignment. Exceptions, if they exist, comprise less than 1% of the race's population and apply to isolated individuals.
* Usually: 80–90% of the race have the indicated alignment. Exceptions are thus rare and may be ostracized by the race's society.
* Often: 40–80% of this race have the indicated alignment. Exceptions are uncommon, but not unknown.[1]

But even if you were right and "usually evil" meant 70%, it still should be an terrible evil act to genocide a whole town "just in case".

They didn't genocide a whole town "just in case". They performed a detect evil and found that the town as a whole was judged to be evil. The high priest of the time confirmed that they had set off the paladin's "evil radar".

As I understand it, the Paladin rules of engagement allow them to kill any evil creature on sight, and any other creature in self-defense or in pursuit of their mission, which in this case is to eliminate the bearer of the Crimson Mantle.

Some of the paladins exceeded their rules of engagement and killed innocents who were not evil and not impeding the mission. They fell.

So the picture is a bit more complex than "people in shiny armor butcher innocents". As the Giant explained , these nuances were not important to Redcloak's story, since the purpose of those panels was not an unbiased history but rather to show his perception of these events and how they shaped him.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Chobarth

2012-01-10, 05:36 PM

Killing people just because it is convenient for you is not what Heroes must do in a Fantasy World. ... acknowledging the Elf Commander's action as a henious crime that wouldn't be tolerated by a LG character.

It is not, thus, a kind of behaviour that the Giant approves for heroic characters. And I'm glad to confirm, in today's strip, that the Giant is being coherent about it.

The Elf Commander wasn't a "Hero" He was a military commander. A soldier. In a tenuous position in a overrun city conducting operations primarily by stealth / guerilla tactics. He is in a 'war' and can't afford any of the things people are suggesting (actually he could, but I'm just trying to point out his very reasonable conduct for his role and situation).

Overlooking the point that I LOVED the hobgoblin execution scene "I suggest a spatula... ...elves are awesome" it was an entirely reasonable response for that character.

LtNOWIS

2012-01-10, 05:37 PM

Meh. Semantics. We all know what we mean, and "speciesist" doesn't come as naturally to us as it would in the OotS world.
It's not a semantic difference. Specieses have non-trivial differences.

An OotS character who thought that goblins, humans and elves were equally intelligent, strong and likely to be good or evil would not be fair-minded. Rather, they would be objectively incorrect.

Chobarth

2012-01-10, 05:37 PM