E6 Discussion Thread

[NeoSeraphi]

So I vaguely know about E6. It's a game where the levels stop going up after 6, but you keep getting feats which you can use to spend on other class features. The idea is, from what I've heard, that most Tier 3s and above start all their gamebreaking at higher levels, so ending it at 6 will help everyone enjoy it more (the warriors get their second attack, so they're still better than the 3/4s the 3/4s get their class feature and skill points, and the casters still have toys)

But what I wonder is, does it really feel like a game after you get to level 6? With no class features or levels, how do you advance? With your hit points capped, you never get more endurant, so you can't fight progressively tougher monsters, can you?

This is all coming from a guy who has no understanding or experience, so if what I'm saying is off-base, please don't be offended. I'm not trying to attack your system, I'm just curious.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

In most fantasy stories, powerful opponents like dragons and giants are often viewed as beyond the capability of even the bravest heroes to consistently defeat. Trolls and ogres even are no small task even for the most experienced champion. This is what E6 is all about, any given foe is still a threat in great enough numbers, and you never get strong enough to just wade through enormous opponents with ease.

Think of the Lord of the Rings, when they're besieged in Moria; any powerful wizard would have brushed aside countless goblins as though they were gnats, and a high level ranger and dwarf fighter could have cut down that cave troll in a few rounds (12-18 seconds), but it was a long and difficult fight. Epic battles like that can happen all the time, and do, when you play E6.

After you hit 6th level, you still gain feats, you still gain wealth and better magic items, and you can still gain in-character prestige and status. There's much to gain in feats alone for nearly any character, everyone likes shinier trinkets, and there's a big difference between having meaningful interaction with a setting because of your deeds, and having meaningful interaction with a setting because you could conquer it single-handed.

[SpaceBadger]

This may be the blind leading the blind, as I haven't actually =played= any E6 yet but am gearing up to play next campaign as E6.

For me, the attraction is that all of the "numbers" stuff (BAB, HP, saves, etc) don't go up above 6th level. My favorite sweet spot has always been levels 3 to 6, before the characters start getting so powerful that they don't have to be concerned with any normal dangers anymore. I like a gritty sword & sorcery game better than chock-fulla-magic-yawn-its-another-dragon-to-kill-today. Not to say that one is any better than the other, just a matter of taste. It is my hope that E6 can stretch out that sweet spot to keep the game interesting longer before the characters get too powerful.

[NeoSeraphi]

Your points are all very good, but like I said, if you're only gaining feats and gear, there's still a ceiling that you hit, where you can't really fight against creatures and expect to win anymore. After all, after a certain CR, spell resistance would become insurmountable for a CL 6 caster, and Damage Reduction becomes a bigger problem for a character with only +6 BAB.

I guess what I'm asking is, how long do you guys usually keep playing a game after you hit 6th level?

[Lonely Tylenol]

I think if I tried to convince my party to switch to E6, they'd gang up and kill me in an act of cooperation and coordination unlike any I'd expect to see occur at the table at any time.

Where can I find the rule set? :smallbiggrin:

[Manateee]

Disregarding for a second the advancement built into E6 -

Why would you need character progression to have a game?

[NeoSeraphi]

Disregarding for a second the advancement built into E6 -

Why would you need character progression to have a game?

I just feel like if you can't progress, you wouldn't be able to face tougher enemies, and then there's not as much to look forward to. It's not an end-all problem, but it certainly seems like it wouldn't be as fun (to me).

[Wookie-ranger]

Why would you need character progression to have a game?

+1

Its a role playing game after all. at least that,s what it is officially. its not about who is the first to throw a fireball that can blast a continent or who is the first to become a god.
Its supposed to be fun, and for many the fun starts to subside after around level 8 or so.


Edit:

I just feel like if you can't progress, you wouldn't be able to face tougher enemies, and then there's not as much to look forward to. It's not an end-all problem, but it certainly seems like it wouldn't be as fun (to me).

not really. you still progress, just not as exponentially as you have. you still gain feats, some of which are special (and more powerful then normal)for E6. you also still adventure, gain money, get better items, obtain real estate.
the way you progress is more 'real' more natural. it is more like you would see in a movie or a read in a book. who wants to read about a hero that gets paid to kill the mighty red dragon in the caves of doom, on to of mount Armageddon; only to do so in less then a day, with barely breaking a sweat.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Your points are all very good, but like I said, if you're only gaining feats and gear, there's still a ceiling that you hit, where you can't really fight against creatures and expect to win anymore. After all, after a certain CR, spell resistance would become insurmountable for a CL 6 caster, and Damage Reduction becomes a bigger problem for a character with only +6 BAB.

I guess what I'm asking is, how long do you guys usually keep playing a game after you hit 6th level?

More powerful creatures than an E6 character can defeat only exist so that powerful PCs can kill them. If nobody in the setting is capable of defeating a given creature, then maybe that creature just shouldn't be present in the game setting.

There can always be more challenges, more adventures, more happening in the setting without monsters getting progressively stronger. The only reason monsters do get progressively stronger is because the PCs get progressively stronger. There's enough variety of monsters and possible villains in the CR 3-9 range that an E6 game can go on for years without the adventures repeating themselves. The PCs can still see progress, the story can still move forward, and everyone can keep having fun without party balance becoming progressively more skewed in favor of the spellcasters.

[NeoSeraphi]

+1

Its a role playing game after all. at least that,s what it is officially. its not about who is the first to throw a fireball that can blast a continent or who is the first to become a god.
Its supposed to be fun, and for many the fun starts to subside after around level 8 or so.

Alright, well I certainly don't want people to get the wrong idea here. I agree with and understand all this.

I was more looking for a possible explanation on that "advancement built into E6" that Manateee mentioned. So, your character advancement has other things to look forward to after 6th than just more feats?

[NeoSeraphi]

More powerful creatures than an E6 character can defeat only exist so that powerful PCs can kill them. If nobody in the setting is capable of defeating a given creature, then maybe that creature just shouldn't be present in the game setting.

There can always be more challenges, more adventures, more happening in the setting without monsters getting progressively stronger. The only reason monsters do get progressively stronger is because the PCs get progressively stronger. There's enough variety of monsters and possible villains in the CR 3-9 range that an E6 game can go on for years without the adventures repeating themselves. The PCs can still see progress, the story can still move forward, and everyone can keep having fun without party balance becoming progressively more skewed in favor of the spellcasters.

I see. So the key for an E6 DM is variety, rather than a logical progression of a themed enemy type or simply stacking class levels onto a lower CR monster. That certainly does sound like fun. Testing my skills against the entire Monster Manual does seem like it would never get old, even if my options remained the same throughout.

[Curious]

I see. So the key for an E6 DM is variety, rather than a logical progression of a themed enemy type or simply stacking class levels onto a lower CR monster. That certainly does sound like fun. Testing my skills against the entire Monster Manual does seem like it would never get old, even if my options remained the same throughout.

Well, enemies do progress, just at a much slower rate. A group of E6 heroes with an extra 20 feats can take on much more powerful foes than a group of E6 heroes who just reached epic levels. There was actually a contest a while ago about defeating a Balor in E6. Several groups managed it.

[Wookie-ranger]

More powerful creatures than an E6 character can defeat only exist so that powerful PCs can kill them. If nobody in the setting is capable of defeating a given creature, then maybe that creature just shouldn't be present in the game setting.

There can always be more challenges, more adventures, more happening in the setting without monsters getting progressively stronger. The only reason monsters do get progressively stronger is because the PCs get progressively stronger. There's enough variety of monsters and possible villains in the CR 3-9 range that an E6 game can go on for years without the adventures repeating themselves. The PCs can still see progress, the story can still move forward, and everyone can keep having fun without party balance becoming progressively more skewed in favor of the spellcasters.


well, you can still fight tougher monsters, but it will be more difficult (that's kind of the point, i know). the players need to be more prepared to to scout out the lair choose a battle field, probably lay an ambush.
they might need to hire a henchmen or two. or even go on a special quest to find a map, that then leads them to a weapon that can kill that mighty enemy.
in normal d20 most heroes just kind of walk into the dungeon and kill what ever is there, spend there typical x% or resources and gain x treasure.

given the extra challenge of E6 i find it as much (if not more) fun as the normal d20.

if you want stronger players you can also go Gestalt. that works incredibly well in E6!

[Urpriest]

While you "only" get feats (well and wealth, but it's not a WBL system AFAIK), there are special feats assigned to pick up a few choice capabilities that you wouldn't otherwise get. And feats really can feel different when you can get giant chains of them. Look up the E6 Iron Chefs (Appetizer Edition?) for some examples.

[Tyndmyr]

More powerful creatures than an E6 character can defeat only exist so that powerful PCs can kill them. If nobody in the setting is capable of defeating a given creature, then maybe that creature just shouldn't be present in the game setting.

There can always be more challenges, more adventures, more happening in the setting without monsters getting progressively stronger. The only reason monsters do get progressively stronger is because the PCs get progressively stronger. There's enough variety of monsters and possible villains in the CR 3-9 range that an E6 game can go on for years without the adventures repeating themselves. The PCs can still see progress, the story can still move forward, and everyone can keep having fun without party balance becoming progressively more skewed in favor of the spellcasters.

I've not actually seen that be the case. It's my experience that feats, while initially less powerful than levels, end up being more so, because the amount of xp you need to go from say, level 19 to level 20 is worth a fair number of feats. More to the point, offensive feats tend to end up being favored, since dropping someone before they act again is always preferable to trying to survive the action.

Also, it's a lot easier to slap power attack, etc on a char than it is to get more hp with feats. Imp Toughness is 1/char, and regular toughness is terrible. The dwarven toughness line is basically only accessible to specific strong fort save builds, in part. There's not a lot else that appreciably boosts hp. There's a LOT of feats that increase damage done.

So, eventually, it becomes rocket tag, same as high level D&D. It was a fun trip getting there to figure this all out, mind you, but when you're only a few feats into level 6, and you've got a warmage eagerly looking for a way to break the CL cap on fireball...you realize that even at medium op levels, offense outstrips defense rapidly. You throw increasingly high CR encounters, and they do more damage. People end up optimizing to nova in a surprise round, or they end up splattered.

TLDR: E6 doesn't scale half as well as people claim it does. I've gone back to regular D&D.



Well, enemies do progress, just at a much slower rate. A group of E6 heroes with an extra 20 feats can take on much more powerful foes than a group of E6 heroes who just reached epic levels. There was actually a contest a while ago about defeating a Balor in E6. Several groups managed it.

Not really that slower, xp wise. My entry in that particular encounter could kill what, two balors a round for an arbitrary length of time? I believe the majority of my feats were "I'm not bothering to specify them, so eh, toughness or whatever".

See, with that kind of pile of feats, you are going to get synergy. It's nigh impossible to avoid. You're a caster? Even a blaster is gonna look for "I want to blast more". That's either CL boosters or metamagic. If you take metamagic and have limited slots....that leads you to metamagic reducers. Either path leads to "holy god, that's a lot of damage".

[Manateee]

I was more looking for a possible explanation on that "advancement built into E6" that Manateee mentioned. So, your character advancement has other things to look forward to after 6th than just more feats?No, it's pretty much just feats, gear and narrative/fictional rewards.

But feats are totally advancement.
For instance, in d20, they're all the advancement non-casters get.
<_<

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You can do something like... a Reserves of Strength (DCS), Lesser Rod of/Sudden Maximized Fireball, for 54 damage, and on the following round Quick Recovery (LoM) to break the stun and cast another spell with Reserves, and just repeat that every round. Any character could do that without any extra feats, though I'm sure there's some way to get that up to a maximized 13d6 in E6.

I was chatting with my gaming group about E6 a while back, we'd just watched the movie Troy. One guy said Achilles was 6th level and Hector was around 4th level. Another told him that they were both 6th level, and that "Hector is a character you built, and Achilles is a character that Nate (me) built."

I'll agree that there is some silly stuff you can do in E6, from the double Ocular Split Ray Twinned Maximized Sanctum Enervation Dread Necromancer to the Spellhoarding Venerable Dragonwrought Desert Kobold Loredrake Martial Wizard 1/ Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 4/ Mindbender 1 with the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage and Collegiate Wizard. Even reasonable characters who are extremely focused throughout their career, like a (Water) Halfling Sneak Attack Thug Fighter 6 with the Fighter capstone feat, TWF, ITWF, Weapon Focus, Specialization, Greater Focus, Melee Weapon Mastery, Improved Crit, probably EWP: Barbed Daggers and Craven, and Swords/weapons of Subtlety. Then there's the Wild Shape Mystic Ranger with Sword of the Arcane Order, Natural Spell, and Extra Wild Shape, who spends all day every day in the form of a Fleshraker dinosaur and can cast (Extended) Wraithstrike and Venomous Volley, and Wand of Venomfire....

E6 is not about PCs being limited in what they can defeat. It's about the party being more or less within one tier of each other in power, rather than a few characters feeling useless while the spellcasters steal the show. Casters are still a strong choice, but nonspellcasters are no longer a mistake (except for Monks), and can make just as significant a contribution as the spellcasters in most situations. The point of E6 is not to make the PCs incapable of defeating certain opponents, it's to keep the PCs' power somewhat equal relative to each other, and I think it does a great job of that, apart from the character-building proficiency discrepancies outlined in the Achilles/Hector example above.

[Rossebay]

No, it's pretty much just feats, gear and narrative/fictional rewards.

But feats are totally advancement.
For instance, in d20, they're all the advancement non-casters get.
<_<

Yeah... For characters like Shifters, E6 ends up being really cool.

Basically, E6 continues until players get bored with their characters. It's slower advancement, though. Definitely. Even in my group, we realize that there is a CL cap, only so much PA damage that you can get off, and only so many feats you can take. E6 should cap out at around CR 10, but higher CR creatures can be defeated.

In my experience, E6 tapers off to getting a little boring after 20 feats or so, but that's only because the DM begins to get bored or run out of ideas. If we had a stronger DM, we'd have longer games.

E6 does, though, balance out Melee and Casters. Definitely.

[Kaeso]

Doesn't E6 really gimp casters, especially the wizard?
While clerics and especially druids can handle themselves quite well at lower levels, wizards are quite screwed, as they dont have the end all be all spells and can run out of spell slots pretty quickly. Clerics and druids without any spells left can still make themselves useful as secondary beatsticks.

[HunterOfJello]

E6 is not about PCs being limited in what they can defeat. It's about the party being more or less within one tier of each other in power, rather than a few characters feeling useless while the spellcasters steal the show. Casters are still a strong choice, but nonspellcasters are no longer a mistake (except for Monks), and can make just as significant a contribution as the spellcasters in most situations. The point of E6 is not to make the PCs incapable of defeating certain opponents, it's to keep the PCs' power somewhat equal relative to each other, and I think it does a great job of that, apart from the character-building proficiency discrepancies outlined in the Achilles/Hector example above.

You have just convinced me that playing an E6 game would be even more fun than I imagined. I guess having a group of people who know the game well enough to do basic optimization would also be helpful in general.

[Lonely Tylenol]

I just feel like if you can't progress, you wouldn't be able to face tougher enemies, and then there's not as much to look forward to. It's not an end-all problem, but it certainly seems like it wouldn't be as fun (to me).

I've never played an E6 game, nor am I actually playing a game now (I DM the only game I'm involved in), but I'm of the mind that the world doesn't stop having dragons or legendary creatures just because they're not CR-appropriate. A group of ECL 2 players are just as likely to find a dire bear as they are a wolf in my campaign worlds; if they choose, then, to fight a bear that is much larger and fiercer than any they'd see, that is entirely their problem, and can result in either an epic struggle for survival or a tragic massacre, depending on how foolhardy they are. :smallbiggrin:

That said, a game where players cap at 6th wouldn't necessarily stop me from introducing Vrocks or even Hezrou into the game world (as far as CR are concerned), but such encounters would be the climactic, balls-to-the-wall, high-stakes struggle to the death that Vrocks should represent, instead of an opportunity for the rest of the party to wait patiently for the party wizard to cast Dismissal.

P.S. I keep getting server busy messages, so this message is probably coming way too late to be relevant.

[Rossebay]

Doesn't E6 really gimp casters, especially the wizard?
While clerics and especially druids can handle themselves quite well at lower levels, wizards are quite screwed, as they dont have the end all be all spells and can run out of spell slots pretty quickly. Clerics and druids without any spells left can still make themselves useful as secondary beatsticks.

Uhh, wrong. Druids and Clerics get, what, 1 more BAB? Wizard is just as good with Weapon Finesse or weapon focus out of his extra feats.

Either way, Wizards and Sorcerers get 3rd level spells at this point. 1 fireball against a legion of goblins is infinitely more useful than one sword against the same.

Casters are still just as good.

[HunterOfJello]

After all, after a certain CR, spell resistance would become insurmountable for a CL 6 caster, and Damage Reduction becomes a bigger problem for a character with only +6 BAB.

I guess what I'm asking is, how long do you guys usually keep playing a game after you hit 6th level?

As far as Spell Resistance and Damage Reduction go:

SR Feats
Spell Penetration = +2 to overcome SR
Greater Spell Penetration = +2 to overcome SR
Fortify Spell Metamagic (CArc) = +2 to overcome per increase in spell level
Shadow Weave Magic = +1 to overcome SR for Enchantment, Illusion, & Necromancy schools
Pernicious Magic = +4 to overcome SR on a creature without the Shadow Weave Magic feat

SR Items
Third Eye Penetrate (Face) = +2 to overcome SR
Vest of the Archmagi (Torso)= +2 to overcome SR [Okay, this item costs 200k gp, but it is possible to get!]
Tomebound Eye of Boccob = +4 to +8 on one to three wizard spells when they are being prepared

Using those items and feats it would be easy to +11 to overcome SR from feats and up to a whopping +23 to overcome SR on one spell if the group had a ton of cash and prepared one specific spell to overcome an enemy's SR.

~~~~~~

As for Damage Reduction, that's an easy problem to solve. Matrial Study (Mountain Hammer) can do the trick, going ahead and buying a weapon of every different DR overcoming type would work well, and finally you can go and get a weapon enhanced with the +3 enhancement, Shadow Striking, from Tome of Magic. Shadow Striking attunes to the DR of anything it hits for 1d4 minutes and can overcome it for that period of time.


Doesn't E6 really gimp casters, especially the wizard?
While clerics and especially druids can handle themselves quite well at lower levels, wizards are quite screwed, as they dont have the end all be all spells and can run out of spell slots pretty quickly. Clerics and druids without any spells left can still make themselves useful as secondary beatsticks.


Wizards and Sorcerers are definitely weak at low levels. However, by the time those arcane casters get to level 6, they definitely aren't weak anymore. Either class is fine in a party and will be able to outdo a cleric and druid in many situations.

You're also forgetting about the bonus feats and items that E6 characters gain access to. The Improved Familiar feat will give a wizard or sorcerer access to the Blink Dog, Hell Hound, Air Elemental, and Jaculi. All 4 are awesome familiars. The Hell Hound will be useful in combat for quite some time and the Blink Dog is a huge boon for delivering touch attacks.

If a sorcerer or wizard is unhappy with their lack of spell slots then they can go feat crazy and take Extra Slot multiple times. If a wizard gets enough money they can also go and buy Rings of Wizardry and piss off all of the other spellcasters in the universe. A Wizard 6 can gain two extra 3rd level spells cast per day from a Ring of Wizardry III. If they get a lower level version they'll pay less and get 3 extra spells for the respective level per day. If the player decides on focusing some effort on gaining more spells per day, they can succeed quickly and easily.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Doesn't E6 really gimp casters, especially the wizard?
While clerics and especially druids can handle themselves quite well at lower levels, wizards are quite screwed, as they dont have the end all be all spells and can run out of spell slots pretty quickly. Clerics and druids without any spells left can still make themselves useful as secondary beatsticks.

My experience with wizards at level 6 (and I know wizards very intimately at around this level) is that they are just starting to come out unto their own at this point, but they are not yet capable of having a solution to literally every problem that could ever surface, and having enough slots where they no longer need to choose, but simply have every solution to every common problem at all times. In core, a 6th-level wizard can still fly, be invisible, bend time (but not break it) with Haste and Slow or space with Enlarge and Reduce Person, blow things up (just not with a cursory glance), control some undead, turn away arrows (outside of core, they can Reverse them) and energy spells, create all manner of illusions and glamers, and what-have-you. These are all things that we would regard as epic in our everyday world. They are, meanwhile, still quite squishy, but that is the trade that they are making for the level of power they are getting (namely, the above abilities). Thinking about it in retrospect, I considered myself more powerful (if not more survivable) than most of the people in my adventuring party at level 6, but not so much so that there was no cause for comparison at any level; many of them still had tricks I could not ever hope to emulate, and we were all better off for it.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Make your Wizard an Elf, get Point-Blank Shot and Precise Shot for rays and for bows. There, you don't need spells to make a noticeable contribution, especially if there's a Bard in the party. Plus, low-level Wands are extremely good in E6.

[NeoSeraphi]

As for Damage Reduction, that's an easy problem to solve. Matrial Study (Mountain Hammer) can do the trick, going ahead and buying a weapon of every different DR overcoming type would work well, and finally you can go and get a weapon enhanced with the +3 enhancement, Shadow Striking, from Tome of Magic. Shadow Striking attunes to the DR of anything it hits for 1d4 minutes and can overcome it for that period of time.

Martial Study only lets you use it once per encounter, holding a weapon that is the opposite alignment as yours gives you two Persistent negative levels (such as a good character holding an unholy weapon) and those would really hurt in a game where your max level was 6!

Shadow Striking sounds like it could work, I don't know the exact details of the feature since I haven't read it, but I suppose chucking money at the problem would help in the long-run.

Edit: You make a point about penetrating spell resistance though, and of course you could always just use spells like major image that don't allow SR.

[Surrealistik]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=215986

Probably the best incarnation of E6 going.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

What exists in an E6 setting that even has (or is even capable of summoning something that has) DR X/Alignment?!

You can still Power Attack + Leap Attack + Shock Trooper + Charging Smite + Rhino's Rush + Valorous weapon + Armbands of Might for....
Str 18, +1 Valorous Greatsword: 2d6+7
Power Attack with Armbands: -6 AC, +14 damage; Leap Attack: +28
Charging Smite: +Cha to hit, +15 damage
Rhino's Rush + Valorous: x2 + x2 = x3
6d6+150 damage, or 8d6+200 on a critical hit.

[NeoSeraphi]

What exists in an E6 setting that even has (or is even capable of summoning something that has) DR X/Alignment?!

Off the top of my head? A rakshasa is CR 10. Then again, I don't know anything about the type of monsters you would see in an E6 game, but


You can still Power Attack + Leap Attack + Shock Trooper + Charging Smite + Rhino's Rush + Valorous weapon + Armbands of Might for....
Str 18, +1 Valorous Greatsword: 2d6+7
Power Attack with Armbands: -6 AC, +14 damage; Leap Attack: +28
Charging Smite: +Cha to hit, +15 damage
Rhino's Rush + Valorous: x2 + x2 = x3
6d6+150 damage, or 8d6+200 on a critical hit.

Assuming you were level 10 (so you'd only have...4 extra feats?) and you were using a paladin so you couldn't use GWF or anything like that, you'd only have about 10+Str+Cha to-hit, and a rakshasa with greater magic armor and shield up would have 31 AC...so I dunno, it might be close.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I doubt a Rakshasa would use one of his 3rd level spell slots for +2 AC over using just Mage Armor, so more like 29 AC.

I was keeping that somewhat reasonable. If he was level E6 10, he'd probably have more like Str 24, probably Cha 18, a +2 primary weapon, not even any Bless/Haste/etc. even though it looks like a boss fight.

6 BAB + 7 Str + 2 Charge + 4 Cha + 2 Enhancement + 2 Weapon Focus = +23 to hit, he misses on 1-5 (25%), hits on 6-20 (75%).

[NeoSeraphi]

I doubt a Rakshasa would use one of his 3rd level spell slots for +2 AC over using just Mage Armor, so more like 29 AC.

I was keeping that somewhat reasonable. If he was level E6 10, he'd probably have more like Str 24, probably Cha 18, a +2 primary weapon, not even any Bless/Haste/etc. even though it looks like a boss fight.

6 BAB + 7 Str + 2 Charge + 4 Cha + 2 Enhancement + 2 Weapon Focus = +23 to hit, he misses on 1-5 (25%), hits on 6-20 (75%).

Huh? Weapon Focus doesn't grant +2 to hit.

That's assuming he can even charge, of course. If the rakshasa just decides to fly, it makes his DR much harder for the characters, since DR (especially when it's 10 or higher) is really tough for archers to deal with.

But alright, so if a character optimizes E6, he can deal with DR. Fair enough. I yield that point to you.

[Rossebay]

Off the top of my head? A rakshasa is CR 10. Then again, I don't know anything about the type of monsters you would see in an E6 game, but



Assuming you were level 10 (so you'd only have...4 extra feats?) and you were using a paladin so you couldn't use GWF or anything like that, you'd only have about 10+Str+Cha to-hit, and a rakshasa with greater magic armor and shield up would have 31 AC...so I dunno, it might be close.

8 extra feats. 1 level = 2 feats.

Edit: Also, DR should be a worry, and one DR-Breaker in the party will keep him interested and relevant instead of just overcoming it.

SR? Hit it. DR? Cast on it. Both? Run to an area where you have the advantage, or escape, train, get a few situational feats, and try again.

[Zaq]

Incarnates can get DR/alignment in E6. Mine did. It was fun, until the dice decided to spite me and I ended up being ignored because I was an unkillable non-threat (i.e., Dwarven Defender Syndrome).

Anyway, one thing I love about E6 (in such a game right now) is that you don't have to feel bad about playing casters. I always feel a little guilty playing full casters in 3.5, but in E6? Nah, bust out the Psion, it's all good.

But yeah, the fact that threats stay threats in E6 is a huge draw for me. We're a mid-op group (we're all aware of what we're doing, or are receiving help from people who are aware of what they're doing, but we don't really go out of our way to get anything crazy), but we don't have the ability to just neutralize or ignore things the way we might otherwise.

I also love that classes that tend to get crappy after a few levels generally don't have a chance to totally fall out of relevance. For example, I'm currently playing a Hexblade (straight, no multiclass). By level 9 or 10, Hexblades have stopped giving you anything useful (at least at the rate that you really need it to keep up with, say, ToBers). In E6, though? No, I'm still relevant. And I love that.

My DM loves that he has to worry somewhat less about what he throws at us, too. He can use casters without worrying that they're going to just curbstomp the party, for instance. It's great.

I'm a huge fan of E6.

[Heatwizard]

What I gather from E6 is that it's not something you 'switch to' and make your main game, but rather something different you do on the side, or when everyone's gotten sick of the multi-year long haul campaign.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Help me out here, E6ers. Everything I've seen about spellcasting references "Ritual Casting" variant rules from Unearthed Arcana (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/E6_%283.5e_Sourcebook%29/Rules#Spells):


For specific spells that you want in your game, you have several options.


Make a feat for it. (See examples in the Feats section.)
Allow one-shot items (like Scrolls or Potions) to be created after a certain amount of researching/questing. The one-shot item is treated like a treasure award with the standard d20 price tag.
Use the Ritual Casting rules variant from Unearthed Arcana.


It gives you a flavored, GM-moderated way with inherent limiters to include higher level spells into the game.

But I can't seem to find any such rules. Can someone point me to a page number?

[Zaq]

What I gather from E6 is that it's not something you 'switch to' and make your main game, but rather something different you do on the side, or when everyone's gotten sick of the multi-year long haul campaign.

Anecdotal counterexample: my group was in a high-level (15, bordering 16) campaign that had been going for about a year and a half, maybe two years, when we decided that the campaign was just too damn high-level. An epic Wizard then ended up casting the "E6" spell, E6ing the rest of the world (except himself, naturally), and we kept playing the same campaign with the same characters (though obviously trying to figure out what the hell was going on and why they felt so much weaker). We haven't looked back. This is the only 3.5 game we've been in since then.

[SpaceBadger]

Help me out here, E6ers. Everything I've seen about spellcasting references "Ritual Casting" variant rules from Unearthed Arcana (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/E6_%283.5e_Sourcebook%29/Rules#Spells):
But I can't seem to find any such rules. Can someone point me to a page number?

I had that exaact same question, and someone directed me to the Incantation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/incantations.htm) variant rules (I don't have UA to verify these are the same).

[Lonely Tylenol]

I had that exaact same question, and someone directed me to the Incantation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/incantations.htm) variant rules (I don't have UA to verify these are the same).

I'm thinking this is what it must be as well. When I had originally done my searching for ritual casting, I kept getting vaunted to the Epic Rules for creating new spells (and I'm pretty certain that is not what they had in mind).

Thanks! :smallbiggrin:

[Cieyrin]

Martial Study only lets you use it once per encounter, holding a weapon that is the opposite alignment as yours gives you two Persistent negative levels (such as a good character holding an unholy weapon) and those would really hurt in a game where your max level was 6!

Shadow Striking sounds like it could work, I don't know the exact details of the feature since I haven't read it, but I suppose chucking money at the problem would help in the long-run.

You can also do Sense Weakness, which lets you ignore 5 hardness or DR with a Weapon Focused weapon. In a non-E6 game, I'd delegate that strictly to Sunder Monkeys but it's not necessarily a bad idea for any character that deals weapon damage in E6.


What exists in an E6 setting that even has (or is even capable of summoning something that has) DR X/Alignment?!

Lots of demons and devils have DR/alignment or special material and I don't just mean the high level stuff. Succubi, Quasits, Dretches, Babaus, Barbazu, Kytons, Bezekira, Imps and Lemures are all suitably CRed for E6 and are all Core monsters ranging from CR 1-7.


I had that exact same question, and someone directed me to the Incantation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/incantations.htm) variant rules (I don't have UA to verify these are the same).

That is definitely the same as what's in UA.

[NeoSeraphi]

You can also do Sense Weakness, which lets you ignore 5 hardness or DR with a Weapon Focused weapon. In a non-E6 game, I'd delegate that strictly to Sunder Monkeys but it's not necessarily a bad idea for any character that deals weapon damage in E6.

Isn't Sense Weakness based on the Sense Motive skill? I thought only paladins had that as a class skill (at least where Full BAB warriors are concerned). Doesn't seem like a very good solution to your DR problems if only one class can use it properly.

I'm not sure about this, as I just looked through the PHB II, Complete Scoundrel, and Complete Adventurer and couldn't find it. (I don't remember the source for Sense Weakness)



Lots of demons and devils have DR/alignment or special material and I don't just mean the high level stuff. Succubi, Quasits, Dretches, Babaus, Barbazu, Kytons, Bezekira, Imps and Lemures are all suitably CRed for E6 and are all Core monsters ranging from CR 1-7.


Yeah, but you can just carry cold iron or silver weapons to deal with that. (Which he suggested) You don't need an alignment weapon to overcome their DR like you do to beat a rakshasa's.

[Cieyrin]

Isn't Sense Weakness based on the Sense Motive skill? I thought only paladins had that as a class skill (at least where Full BAB warriors are concerned). Doesn't seem like a very good solution to your DR problems if only one class can use it properly.

I'm not sure about this, as I just looked through the PHB II, Complete Scoundrel, and Complete Adventurer and couldn't find it. (I don't remember the source for Sense Weakness)

You're thinking of Combat Intuition. Sense Weakness is from the Draconomicon, requires Int 13, Combat Expertise and Weapon Focus. As long as you use wield the weapon you have Weapon Focus in, you ignore that 5 hardness/DR, regardless of source, no questions asked. Now, you have to deal with having to stick to a weapon if you're not a Warblade or dipped it but that's a small price to pay.


Yeah, but you can just carry cold iron or silver weapons to deal with that. (Which he suggested) You don't need an alignment weapon to overcome their DR like you do to beat a rakshasa's.

Early outsiders, yes, but around CR 6-7, it shifts into strictly alignment. Not that an Oil of Bless Weapon won't resolve that for you but that's something else entirely.

[Tyndmyr]

My experience with wizards at level 6 (and I know wizards very intimately at around this level) is that they are just starting to come out unto their own at this point, but they are not yet capable of having a solution to literally every problem that could ever surface, and having enough slots where they no longer need to choose, but simply have every solution to every common problem at all times.

Meh. Eternal wands solve the slot issues. Or regular wands, for that matter. Scrolls for the weird stuff.

[NeoSeraphi]

Meh. Eternal wands solve the slot issues. Or regular wands, for that matter. Scrolls for the weird stuff.

Wait, can an E6 caster still buy and use scrolls of 4th or higher level spells? Or is the entire world E6'D so that no one's CL is high enough to make them?

[Tvtyrant]

Wait, can an E6 caster still buy and use scrolls of 4th or higher level spells? Or is the entire world E6'D so that no one's CL is high enough to make them?

I think it depends on the group. I remove everything over 3rd level spells from the game and make all of the items that use them artifacts.

[Cieyrin]

Wait, can an E6 caster still buy and use scrolls of 4th or higher level spells? Or is the entire world E6'D so that no one's CL is high enough to make them?

Depends on whether there are Artificers in your game or not, as they get an innate +2 CL for crafting, so they can, in fact, make 4th level spell scrolls, wands, whatever.

Of course, it depends on your DM whether there's strictly no 4th level or higher spells around or whether its just no caster is normally capable of generating that kind of magic (a.k.a. they don't have a 4th level slot).

[Lonely Tylenol]

Meh. Eternal wands solve the slot issues. Or regular wands, for that matter. Scrolls for the weird stuff.

At level 6, buying scrolls for spells you can't ordinarily cast (being above your spell level) is a sizable wealth investment with little payoff, although preparing lower-level scrolls (level 1 and 2) can help with utility.

In E6, this is a nonissue, because 4th and higher spells don't exist in the traditional sense. Raising the dead and teleporting are both significant events, if they happen at all, not something that wizards and clerics just decide to do at their convenience.

[HunterOfJello]

As far as 4th level spells go, some form of group casting seems like the best idea to me. I'm sure someone could create a coherent system for converting 4th level spells into Incantations or something very similar.


Now, why are there arguments going on about DR in the first place? DR has always been handled by the appropriate use of magical items. Are there class features for some classes to deal with DR? Yes. Are they worth a damn? Hell no. Go spend money and solve your problem.

~~~

Question for all:

If you take 2 feats from Cityscape, you can add 1 rank to a skill of your choice. Since E6 stops at level 6, most classes will have a maximum of 9 skill ranks in any skill. Getting 10 ranks would allow the PC access to a number of different feats that require 10 ranks. Having 10 ranks in a skill is a fairly common requirements for feats. Allowing this would add a number of those previously out of reach feats into the game. Would you let your players do this?

[Cieyrin]

Question for all:

If you take 2 feats from Cityscape, you can add 1 rank to a skill of your choice. Since E6 stops at level 6, most classes will have a maximum of 9 skill ranks in any skill. Getting 10 ranks would allow the PC access to a number of different feats that require 10 ranks. Having 10 ranks in a skill is a fairly common requirements for feats. Allowing this would add a number of those previously out of reach feats into the game. Would you let your players do this?

I haven't noticed many feats having 10 ranks as a requirement. Also, Skill Beyond Your Years (http://www.myth-weavers.com/wiki/index.php/Homebrew:DnD3.5/Feats/Skill_Beyond_Your_Years) is already a recommended E6 feat, so max skill rank is actually at 11 or so. Combine with Open Minded as needed.

[NeoSeraphi]

Now, why are there arguments going on about DR in the first place? DR has always been handled by the appropriate use of magical items. Are there class features for some classes to deal with DR? Yes. Are they worth a damn? Hell no. Go spend money and solve your problem.


The problem isn't that class features overcome DR. The problem is that with only a few attacks per round, you wouldn't be able to handle DR as well as a higher level character would.

And again, how are you supposed to overcome alignment-based damage reduction on equipment alone? If I'm an evil character and I go up against a rakshasa, I can't go up against it wielding a holy weapon. It's just not gonna happen. I'm 6th level and I wouldn't stand a chance against a rakshasa with 2 persistent negative levels on me.

[Cieyrin]

The problem isn't that class features overcome DR. The problem is that with only a few attacks per round, you wouldn't be able to handle DR as well as a higher level character would.

And again, how are you supposed to overcome alignment-based damage reduction on equipment alone? If I'm an evil character and I go up against a rakshasa, I can't go up against it wielding a holy weapon. It's just not gonna happen. I'm 6th level and I wouldn't stand a chance against a rakshasa with 2 persistent negative levels on me.

I'd assume you do it like every other evil backstabber and get an Oil or Scroll of Align Weapon, which doesn't carry the negative level penalty and lasts 3 minutes, minimum, so if you're planning a hit, that should be plenty of time to end the fiendish tiger or get ended yourself. Hell, an Oil of Bless Weapon will do the same for you with extra perks, though you'll be somewhat harder pressed to get one, since I'm thinking unless you go to a church of Wee Jas or St. Cuthbert, evil characters may have difficulty getting one from a Pally brewer, though I suppose there's still artificers and archivists.

[Lonely Tylenol]

So, I've put it to my party, and so far the reaction seems... Well, slightly better than expected! I've got four who are down for it, three who are against (but will go along reluctantly), one who is indifferent, one who hasn't yet weighed in, and four who haven't heard the news yet. I'm going on popular vote, so we'll see what happens.

Question: How broken (overpowered OR underpowered) would it be to allow feats at sixth level that give people the option of gestalting (say, at level 1, the 6th-level Fighter takes "Gestalt I" as a feat to gain a level in Rogue, gains the better saves and skill points of the first level, or rather the difference between the two, plus the features of a Rogue I)? Good? Bad? Too confusing?

[Timeless Error]

What do you guys all think about E8? I'm currently DMing an E8 game (with a number of house rules), and it's been going very smoothly, but the party just hit level 7. Should I be expecting 4th level spells to shatter our current E6 dynamic? Just how different does level 7-8 feel from level 6? Does it still keep the balance between casters and not-casters mostly intact? Is the "threats are still threats" feel still there?

[Cieyrin]

So, I've put it to my party, and so far the reaction seems... Well, slightly better than expected! I've got four who are down for it, three who are against (but will go along reluctantly), one who is indifferent, one who hasn't yet weighed in, and four who haven't heard the news yet. I'm going on popular vote, so we'll see what happens.

Question: How broken (overpowered OR underpowered) would it be to allow feats at sixth level that give people the option of gestalting (say, at level 1, the 6th-level Fighter takes "Gestalt I" as a feat to gain a level in Rogue, gains the better saves and skill points of the first level, or rather the difference between the two, plus the features of a Rogue I)? Good? Bad? Too confusing?

Eh, sounds to me like going against the nature of E6, though one of the creators had buying class features as an initial option when pioneering how it worked out, so maybe not a totally bad idea. I just think there's enough challenge as-is in squeezing in what awesome you want into 6 levels, that having to worry about gestalt sounds kinda eh to me.

As for E8, I got nothing on that front on how it breaks the dynamic, though I've heard of E10 as well, so it's just a matter of how far into action hero/wuxia territory you want to get into and are comfortable with.

[Bhaakon]

I don't know, I kind of like the idea of an E6 gestalt variant. Reminds me of the old dual classing from 2e (except without the crappy repercussion of losing all your class features until the second class caught up).

[NeoSeraphi]

What do you guys all think about E8? I'm currently DMing an E8 game (with a number of house rules), and it's been going very smoothly, but the party just hit level 7. Should I be expecting 4th level spells to shatter our current E6 dynamic? Just how different does level 7-8 feel from level 6? Does it still keep the balance between casters and not-casters mostly intact? Is the "threats are still threats" feel still there?

Differences between ending at level 6 and ending at level 8:
3/4 BAB classes get a second attack, meaning that Full BAB classes aren't the only ones with iteratives anymore
Bards get third level spells, including charm monster, glibness, haste, slow, fear, deep slumber, and major image
Other full casters get 4th level spells, including stoneskin, black tentacles, minor creation, dimension door, scrying, lesser geas, greater invisibility, enervation and polymorph for sor/wiz, divination, divine power, imbue with spell-like ability, restoration, tongues, greater magic weapon, and lesser planar ally for clerics, and flame strike, reincarnate, and rusting grasp for druids.
Druids get an additional daily use of Wild Shape, as well as the ability to Wild Shape into Large creatures (and animals of up to 8 HD instead of 6)
Paladins and rangers get 2nd level spells, assuming a high enough Wisdom. Though that makes spellcasting seem a little less useless for them.
Rangers get Woodland Stride and Swift Tracker
Barbarians get Damage Reduction
Rogues get Improved Uncanny Dodge
Monks get 1d10 unarmed damage and wholeness of body


And of course, the suggested E6 capstone feats for most of these classes (especially fighter) become redundant.

Biggest thing, I think anyway, is taking away a Full BAB warrior's exclusivity to the iterative attack.

Of course, since you're going up to level 8, you can prestige into many more classes, though only for one or two levels.

[avr]

In Eberron, teleports are available to sufficiently focused characters by level 8, and House Orien even sells this service commercially. If you're set elsewhere obviously this isn't an issue, but it's part of the scry-buff-teleport routine which annoys many people.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Eh, sounds to me like going against the nature of E6, though one of the creators had buying class features as an initial option when pioneering how it worked out, so maybe not a totally bad idea. I just think there's enough challenge as-is in squeezing in what awesome you want into 6 levels, that having to worry about gestalt sounds kinda eh to me.

I'm not a fan of it myself, but a lot of characters in my group originally had concepts best expressed through multiclasssing or gestalt (such as the gishes, or the Noctumancer) that they'd be giving up to switch to E6. Somebody (here or elsewhere, I can't recall where) suggested that E6 gestalt isn't game-breaking like high-level gestalt (or just gestalt in general is), but I think that's still too much for me. This method basically means that to create a true gestalt character, you need to be level 6+6 feats, and devote all six of your feats to gestalt levels, the parallel, of course, being that of a 6th-level gestalt versus, say, a 12th-level character in a normal game.

(It's probably still higher power than straight E6, but lower power than straight E6 gestalt because of the tax.)


As for E8, I got nothing on that front on how it breaks the dynamic, though I've heard of E10 as well, so it's just a matter of how far into action hero/wuxia territory you want to get into and are comfortable with.

I imagine (and this is a response to the person that brought it up) that the ability of the wizard to cast Stoneskin, Black Tentacles, Solid Fog, Dimension Door, Greater Invisibility, Phantasmal Killer, Enervation, Fear, and Polymorph (in core), Ray Deflection, Greater Resistance, Mass Resist Energy, all the Orbs, Assay Spell Resistance, Vortex of Teeth, Bite of the Werewolf and Mass Darkvision (in Spell Compendium), Greater Mirror Image, Celerity and Trollshape (in Player's Handbook II) may change your game a bit.

Similarly for the Cleric, Druid, and to a lesser extent Sorcerer and Favored Soul, most of whom get their second iterative attack shortly thereafter.

I thought about it long and hard (especially in my game, where the casters are two Pathfinder Magi, one Pathfinder Alchemist, one Bard, one Favored Soul, and one Shadowcaster), and it was tempting, but ultimately I went against it (they can have limited third-level casting through feats if it becomes problematic). Levels 7 and 8 are the point where the power gap between dedicated caster classes and everything else becomes blatant. It can be done; as mentioned above, it just means you're moving a step closer to "action hero" status.

[balistafreak]

I once took the (way too long for a thought exercise) time to stat out a party of E6-Gestalt characters - as in, the campaign started with ClassThis1 // ClassThat1, and began feat progression at ClassThis6 // ClassThat6.

It was surprisingly balanced, beyond what I had expected by pushing things into gestalt. <6th level, characters still have very, very few ways to break action economy, a major reason reason why upper level gestalt sometimes devolves into Class^2 as opposed to feeling like the better parts of two different classes. For example, no Factotum action-spamming to fuel say Wizard spells.

[DemonRoach]

Out of curiosity, which it be beneficial to have classes give a set amount of hp each level (i.e 3/4's or max)?

Barring burning feats on Toughness, those Hit die are the only source of HP, and it would blow to be the Barbarian that rolled all 3's or so and was on par with a wizard :P

[Yora]

Since the probability of a total average increases with the number of rolls, having only 5 rolls makes it very likely to have cases of extremely high or extremely low total results. Normal hp rolling might work well enough for long campaigns, but with E6, you really should use something else.

[Cieyrin]

For example, no Factotum action-spamming to fuel say Wizard spells.

Yeah, Factotums turning Inspiration into Standards is a major difference between E6 and E8, though I suppose I could see a Factotum 6 getting that as their Epic Class Feat.

[SpaceBadger]

Out of curiosity, which it be beneficial to have classes give a set amount of hp each level (i.e 3/4's or max)?

Barring burning feats on Toughness, those Hit die are the only source of HP, and it would blow to be the Barbarian that rolled all 3's or so and was on par with a wizard :P

At all levels above first, we roll the appropriate hit die. If you roll above half of the maximum possible result, you get what you rolled. If you roll less than half the maximum, you get half the maximum. (Fighter example: roll 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 = you get 5. Roll 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 = you get what you rolled.) Then add Con Mod to that result.

[Lonely Tylenol]

If anyone is interested, I've compiled a (near-) comprehensive list of items in the Magic Item Compendium and the SRD that have both required caster levels at or below level 6th and require spells available at level 6th, along with their page numbers, exact required caster level and spells, and gold point value. It also includes items that the artificer would be able to make through its "Caster Level +2" feature, highlighted in yellow. The Magic Item Compendium list is strictly in list form (so as to not be replicating copyrighted content) and only includes item names and page numbers (no descriptions). The SRD list includes complete descriptions of all the magic items, copied directly from the SRD, but I may parse this, as it is 40 pages long like this.

I don't know how I could give it to anyone, though... Would a table work? (The list is 13 pages in a Word doc at 11-point font, so it's a bit large.)

[Wookie-ranger]

If anyone is interested, I've compiled a (near-) comprehensive list of items in the Magic Item Compendium and the SRD that have both required caster levels at or below level 6th and require spells available at level 6th, along with their page numbers, exact required caster level and spells, and gold point value. It also includes items that the artificer would be able to make through its "Caster Level +2" feature, highlighted in yellow. The Magic Item Compendium list is strictly in list form (so as to not be replicating copyrighted content) and only includes item names and page numbers (no descriptions). The SRD list includes complete descriptions of all the magic items, copied directly from the SRD, but I may parse this, as it is 40 pages long like this.

I don't know how I could give it to anyone, though... Would a table work? (The list is 13 pages in a Word doc at 11-point font, so it's a bit large.)


make a google document out of it, then share. that should work.
that list sounds handy.

[Cieyrin]

If anyone is interested, I've compiled a (near-) comprehensive list of items in the Magic Item Compendium and the SRD that have both required caster levels at or below level 6th and require spells available at level 6th, along with their page numbers, exact required caster level and spells, and gold point value. It also includes items that the artificer would be able to make through its "Caster Level +2" feature, highlighted in yellow. The Magic Item Compendium list is strictly in list form (so as to not be replicating copyrighted content) and only includes item names and page numbers (no descriptions). The SRD list includes complete descriptions of all the magic items, copied directly from the SRD, but I may parse this, as it is 40 pages long like this.

I don't know how I could give it to anyone, though... Would a table work? (The list is 13 pages in a Word doc at 11-point font, so it's a bit large.)

We had a forum E6 item list by Yora, though I'm not sure in what state it is now, since there was disagreement about the CL/ML thing.

[dextercorvia]

Yeah, there is a place in the DMG that indicates there is a required CL for items, but that is written out in the errata. The SRD could be more clear, only a semicolon separates it from the requirements.

The argument arose, because in one of the E6 rules files it says to treat CL requirements as hard limits (or something to that effect). That broke everyone into about 3 camps. There was the camp that said the errata to the DMG didn't remove the limits, the camp that said the E6 rule put them back in, and the camp that said that the E6 rule was only valid on certain items that actually require a CL. It would probably be better to just go back and read that thread than re-argue it here. I believe all the pertinent points were covered, and one could just make their own decision based on the arguments (or not).

To that end, I won't state which camp I'm in.

That said, a list of items that was separated based on common interpretations would be quite useful.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Then add Con Mod to that result.

You mean con mod x HD.

Edit: Well, I misread you. But just for clarification, you add con mod for each hit die you have.

[SpaceBadger]

Edit: Well, I misread you. But just for clarification, you add con mod for each hit die you have.

Yes. Since we usually start at 1st or 2nd level and play on through the levels, I am more accustomed to just adding Con Mod at each level, rather than building a high-level character and multiplying Con Mod by hit dice.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Here is the link to my incomplete E6 item compendium. (https://docs.google.com/document/d/14tPIQ2wQMm4rm1siFV73survEhcOIgeBYCHSIOqRe90/edit?hl=en_US) Thus far, only the SRD content and Magic Item Compendium are included. I intend to change the formatting for the SRD content to match that of the Magic Item Compendium (reducing the size significantly in the process). Then, I think I'll include content from the Dragon Magazine Compendium and work from there.

Any collaboration or suggestions for items would be great.

I am using the recommendations found in the E6 Q&A that caster level requirements be considered hard limits for magic item creation. The yellow items are items that an artificer could theoretically create, using his augmented caster level and access to 4th-level spells for the purpose of creating items.

P.S. I need your guys' help on creating a couple of epic "end bosses". These are effectively the final versions of recurring foes who they will fight throughout the campaign (one of whom they have already encountered). Each will have no more than six class levels, plus an acquired template (without Hit Dice) that bumps up the CR: one is a Death Knight (Monster Manual II), and the other a Vampire (both are acquiring the Charisma to bonus hit points that are available to the Pathfinder variant of the Vampire). Each of these were acquired after a devastating fall at the height of their power. I'm not sure which to give to which person.

The first was originally going to be a Human Warblade general of the opposing army (which was recently forced back from their offensive drive through their homeland). I have just decided that it is going to be this Warblade (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12672635&postcount=3); likely straight Warblade, though I might have him dip Barbarian (Ferocity or Whirling Frenzy variant) or Crusader. Or Fighter. Something with full BAB and a useful effect of some sort would be great. Two-level dip where appropriate (Marshal or Fighter 2/Warblade 4, for instance). He's an "iron defense" type of fighter.

Whatever it takes, his maneuvers known are going to be Moment of Perfect Mind, Mighty Throw (I've used this in a previous fight, or it would be Steel Wind), Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Action Before Thought, Wall of Blades, and Insightful Strike. I'd like his stances to be Stance of Clarity (I had already used this against somebody in an honor duel) and Holocaust Cloak. Looking at this, two levels of Fighter or some such at the very front would make it so that all the maneuvers and stances would line up such that I would only need to take Martial Study (Insightful Strike), as I'd get three maneuvers at IL 2, and then a maneuver each at IL 3 and IL 4. So (unspecified classes) 2/Warblade 4, Human, no feats are specified except for Martial Study (Insightful Strike) as one of his 6th. His fall happens "off-stage".

The other is a gish: when I had built him originally, he was an Abjurer 6/Fighter 1/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5. Obviously, I can't do that now, since this is an E6 game, but he is going to remain an Abjurer. I was thinking straight Abjurer 6 or Abjurer 5/some martial class 1, taking advantage of the fact that he'll have D12 Hit Dice once he's undead :smallbiggrin:. Spells he might know include Dragonskin, Whirling Blade, Mage Armor, the like. The party orchestrates his fall, but his friend (who, he discovers as he is dying, is now a lich) recovers the body before his actual death.

Originally, I had designed for them both to be vampires (the Warblade falls to the vampire while fleeing through the hostile countryside; the Abjurer is recovered by the lich and turned over to this same vampire, who is in cahoots with the lich and in fact helped him discover the secret of the phylactery, who rescues him from death by turning him). However, that was a long time ago, and I've since discovered the Death Knight template in the MMII, which seems REALLY FREAKIN' COOL and would definitely break the redundancy. But which to change?

Help me out here? :smallsmile:

[Cieyrin]

The Winged Shield shouldn't be available as written, as it's a +3 shield, which explicitly needs a CL of 9 to make, regardless of the rules stance on whether CL is required to make stuff or not. It's a separate requirement to have a CL of 3x the bonus you want. If it was reduced to a +2 shield, then it would be fully permissable.

You should probably remove the description of the Greater Prayer Bead Strand, as well as the Bead of Karma, since its requirements can't be met and lower the cost of the Normal Prayar Bead Strand accordingly. Removing references to the Bead of Summoning would also be good.

The Mace of Blood can't be made, as the description explicitly says you have to be 9th level and chaotic evil, which is outside the whole hard limit part of things.

Raiment of the Four says you have access to 3 of the 4 pieces of the set and only lists 2. Vestments of Divinity is completely there, just the set number isn't there.

I'd make the Warblade the Death Knight. I don't know what to say about the Gish, as I don't think he's gonna work near as well in E6 as just an Abjurer 5/martial class 1.

[Tyndmyr]

Yeah, there is a place in the DMG that indicates there is a required CL for items, but that is written out in the errata. The SRD could be more clear, only a semicolon separates it from the requirements.

The argument arose, because in one of the E6 rules files it says to treat CL requirements as hard limits (or something to that effect). That broke everyone into about 3 camps. There was the camp that said the errata to the DMG didn't remove the limits, the camp that said the E6 rule put them back in, and the camp that said that the E6 rule was only valid on certain items that actually require a CL. It would probably be better to just go back and read that thread than re-argue it here. I believe all the pertinent points were covered, and one could just make their own decision based on the arguments (or not).

To that end, I won't state which camp I'm in.

That said, a list of items that was separated based on common interpretations would be quite useful.

Long story short, in regular D&D, caster level is not a requirement for item creation.

If you choose for it to be in E6, expect to deal with a certain amount of wonkyness. Also, note that CL is extremely pumpable, so anyone with the inclination to craft things really still can, he just needs to take a few feats and things first. Incidentally, getting a higher CL gains you access to more CL boosters, which a crafter can then craft, so....yeah.

After going through this once, I determined that mucking about with CL for crafting was a giant waste of time.

[Cieyrin]

Long story short, in regular D&D, caster level is not a requirement for item creation.

If you choose for it to be in E6, expect to deal with a certain amount of wonkyness. Also, note that CL is extremely pumpable, so anyone with the inclination to craft things really still can, he just needs to take a few feats and things first. Incidentally, getting a higher CL gains you access to more CL boosters, which a crafter can then craft, so....yeah.

After going through this once, I determined that mucking about with CL for crafting was a giant waste of time.

It's somewhat more difficult to get started, as many of the traditional CL boosters just aren't available at CL 6-8.

[Benly]

I have heard of people using a bit of an in-between on "items above level 6 don't exist/are artifacts" in the form of having them be the creation of races with powerful innate magic. Demons, stone giant elders, dragons and so on are possible sources of items that aren't quite artifacts but are certainly beyond the ability of ordinary mortals to create - sort of "demi-artifacts".

So, well, there's that.

[gorfnab]

One of the builds to watch out for in E6 is:
Trapfinding (DS) Wildshape (UA) Mystic Ranger (Drg #336) + Sword of the Arcane Order feat (CoV) + Wild Cohort feat (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a)
Essentially you have a one man party. 6 BAB, D8 HD, 6+int skill points, trapfinding, wildshaping, 3rd level ranger and wizard spells, and an animal companion.

[Tyndmyr]

It's somewhat more difficult to get started, as many of the traditional CL boosters just aren't available at CL 6-8.

Spellgifted, Arcane Thesis, and three reserve feats will get you to CL 12.

You can do much better than that, but that works with any caster build quite easily.

CL 12 opens up things like Craft Magic Tattoo(an easily accessible spell at level 2) and so on. It's quite doable to get all the way to 20 without any crazy shenanigans...spending feats to boost things is pretty much what E6 is all about.


There's a certain level of wonkyness associated with the alternative too. Sovereign Glue is a CL 20 item that requires a level 2 spell to create. Universal Solvent, the only thing capable of dissolving Sovereign Glue, requires Disintegrate to make, a spell that doesn't exist in E6.

That wonkyness doesn't actually exist in E6 as written. Purely out of the box, E6 contains no ban on spells. I'll grant that disintegrate is remarkably hard to access in E6, but it's not impossible.


10-15 Level 1-2 Warriors with Crossbows are still a threat to the party, and nations primarily depend on standing armies rather than high level PCs to maintain their sovereignty.

10-15 level 1-2 warriors with crossbows are not a notable threat to a level 6 party even before they get extra feats. They're more like an excuse to gleefully rejoice that you took Cleave.

[Cieyrin]

Spellgifted, Arcane Thesis, and three reserve feats will get you to CL 12.

Spellgifted and Arcane Thesis I'll grant you CL 9 for Create Magic Tattoo and CL 7 for Conjuration in general but I can't find any reserve feats that enhance conjuration in general or conjuration(creation) specifically. Conjuration(Healing) and Conjuration(Summoning), as well as teleportation effects, not Creation subschool. Let alone find 3 of them that affect the same thing. I think Force may have the only 3 reserve feats devoted to it, though there are a couple 2 reserve feat combos, like Abjuration, Air and Conjuration(Healing). Then there's the the lesser hurdle of being able to cast spells of a certain level, but that's just a Sanctum Spell/Versatile Spellcaster shenanigans waiting to happen.

And even then, it still won't get you to making Ioun Stones, since those specifically require the character be ECL 12, not just CL 12. Not to mention your CL is specific to the type spell, as opposed to in general, so its frankly a mess.

[TurtleKing]

Ok I have a question about an item thinking on getting for my Gnorman's Didact Sage character that uses its version of truenaming. The Amulet of Silver Tongue has a lesser and greater version yet only lits one CL of 7.

So do you think that item could be available to be purchased as the lesser version? Even without it still have a 18-21 modifer before Universal Aptitude thanks to Skill Focus, Int mod, skill ranks, and Illumian-naen- with Enhanced Sigils feat. ...Wait even the +2 to a stat magic items are CL 8? ...Crap.

[Tyndmyr]

Spellgifted and Arcane Thesis I'll grant you CL 9 for Create Magic Tattoo and CL 7 for Conjuration in general but I can't find any reserve feats that enhance conjuration in general or conjuration(creation) specifically. Conjuration(Healing) and Conjuration(Summoning), as well as teleportation effects, not Creation subschool. Let alone find 3 of them that affect the same thing. I think Force may have the only 3 reserve feats devoted to it, though there are a couple 2 reserve feat combos, like Abjuration, Air and Conjuration(Healing). Then there's the the lesser hurdle of being able to cast spells of a certain level, but that's just a Sanctum Spell/Versatile Spellcaster shenanigans waiting to happen.

First off, it is never specified that the spell for an item needs to be cast at the CL listed for the item(that COULD be done, it's just even more headache inducing), so you just need at least one spell at a given caster level.

I believe force is the way to get three, without resorting to odd type manipulation tricks that are, again, better left as unimportant. There's actually rather a lot of ways to boost cl with feats, though. Feats being somewhat less critical in E6, they can all be overcome eventually. For instance, there are a few that boost one school provided you take a hit to another school. Taking the same school for all the hits and investing in practiced spellcaster will solve this.

Alternatively, you could just take practiced spellcaster and make sure your level 6 choice is Wild Mage, giving you the potential of CL 12 spells out of the box. Fun times.

Plus, you've got all those monsters or whatever out there that can cast at higher CLs and Spell levels.


And even then, it still won't get you to making Ioun Stones, since those specifically require the character be ECL 12, not just CL 12. Not to mention your CL is specific to the type spell, as opposed to in general, so its frankly a mess.

It definitely is a giant mess, and one that's best avoided in general by just avoiding CL. It's RAW, it's less hassle, and frankly, at level 6, income tends to be slower anyway, and makes a much better limiter on magic items.


Ok I have a question about an item thinking on getting for my Gnorman's Didact Sage character that uses its version of truenaming. The Amulet of Silver Tongue has a lesser and greater version yet only lits one CL of 7.

So do you think that item could be available to be purchased as the lesser version? Even without it still have a 18-21 modifer before Universal Aptitude thanks to Skill Focus, Int mod, skill ranks, and Illumian-naen- with Enhanced Sigils feat. ...Wait even the +2 to a stat magic items are CL 8? ...Crap.

It definitely should be available. As should the +2 stat items. Getting +1 or + CL, even if you're using the homebrewed CL restriction, is extremely reasonable. If such a thing as a specialized crafter exists, he almost certainly can handle basic things like +2 ability boosters. And a truenamer is not overpowered, him spending a chunk of money on a +5 truenaming item is quite normal.

[Cieyrin]

First off, it is never specified that the spell for an item needs to be cast at the CL listed for the item(that COULD be done, it's just even more headache inducing), so you just need at least one spell at a given caster level.

I believe force is the way to get three, without resorting to odd type manipulation tricks that are, again, better left as unimportant. There's actually rather a lot of ways to boost cl with feats, though. Feats being somewhat less critical in E6, they can all be overcome eventually. For instance, there are a few that boost one school provided you take a hit to another school. Taking the same school for all the hits and investing in practiced spellcaster will solve this.

I suppose from a RAW perspective that makes sense, though it just kind of looks odd and would seem vulnerable to a DM saying no but that's a different discussion entirely.


Alternatively, you could just take practiced spellcaster and make sure your level 6 choice is Wild Mage, giving you the potential of CL 12 spells out of the box. Fun times.

Wild Mage + Practiced Spellcaster caps at CL +3, since the 1d6-3 roll applies Practiced Spellcaster after the roll, since it can only bring you up to your character level, so it really becomes a +1d3 CL boost.


Plus, you've got all those monsters or whatever out there that can cast at higher CLs and Spell levels.

I have no qualms against players questing for a Midgard Dwarf, Dragon or Rakshasa to craft them an awesome weapon to use against the current story arc's BBEG. That's just heroic tradition in the works, right there. :smallbiggrin:

[Tyndmyr]

Wild Mage + Practiced Spellcaster caps at CL +3, since the 1d6-3 roll applies Practiced Spellcaster after the roll, since it can only bring you up to your character level, so it really becomes a +1d3 CL boost.

Read Wild Mage carefully. They are distinctly separate effects. With your first level in wild mage, you lose 3 CL.

Whenever you cast a spell, you add +1d6 to your CL. There is no "1d6-3" effect.

Therefore, the Practiced Spellcaster directly fixes the first effect, and does not modify the second.


I have no qualms against players questing for a Midgard Dwarf, Dragon or Rakshasa to craft them an awesome weapon to use against the current story arc's BBEG. That's just heroic tradition in the works, right there. :smallbiggrin:

Indeed. Rarity is part and parcel of all this, and one can reasonably expect that crafters capable of making a more expensive item are generally rarer all round. Presumably, even such rare items are still resold, but there's no real problem with players having gloves of ogre strength and the like.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Oh, jeez! Looks like I opened a can of worms up in this thread!

I'll stay out of the technical aspect of this discussion and resolve this in the simplest way I know how:

Tyndmyr: For the people that impose the hard limit on caster level and restrictions on spells above 3rd level, or spells that would be otherwise unattainable to your standard 6th-level character (both of which are explicitly stated or suggested in the E6 guidelines), this list contains a subset of the category of magic items that fit into both of these restrictions, should they be imposed, and is thus a useful resource for those who choose to impose such restrictions.

For the people who have decided not to impose these restrictions, or have decided to allow people to circumvent or subvert hard caster limits through whatever means (containing any or all caster level tricks up to, and including, extreme cheese, a liberal interpretations of the stated rules), then this list is not useful for them, because the subset of magic items that it is possible to create is much larger than the list I have created by its nature (up to, and including, the entire list), and therefore, since this list has no practical applications in their groups, there is no real reason, beyond semantics, for them to care about the practicality of this list for those that do impose such restrictions.

Obviously, simply imposing the hard CL cap and the limit of spells known to 3rd (or 4th, for artificers) isn't going to be enough to make this list meaningful if you, say, treat a 6th-level wizard with Bloodline of Fire, Spellgifted (Conjuration), Arcane Thesis (Orb of Fire, Lesser), and Fiery Burst to be treated as a 12th-level caster for the purposes of using Lesser Orb of Fire, much less the Conjuration (Creation) subschool or just spells in general, to meet prerequisites for creating an item, less so if you allow the stepladdering of caster levels to mean you can actually cast spells of the appropriate spell level (through any means, up to and including extreme cheese), but then, this list is also not an attempt to make itself relevant in these games (they can just as easily draw from the set of all magic items as they can any subset, and any restriction being lifted only makes this more true). This list is for the people who are imposing, and enforcing, caster level restrictions to keep them at or around your Hit Dice for the purpose of creating magic items.

If you are playing E6, and you have decided to allow spell levels above 3rd and caster levels above 6th in your game, and your players (and DM, if you are not) are fine with this in your game, then that's great. Just remember that your game is not everybody's game. Things not relevant to your play experience may be relevant to others.

And so we have this list. Whether you decide to use it or not is entirely up to you; it doesn't change the nature of this list at all. Obviously, I'm mot expecting everyone to find it useful, but hopefully, some people will.

(P.S. I will be making the suggested fixes to the list when I have the time. It won't be for a few days or so, but I figured I should at least acknowledge them.)

[Lonely Tylenol]

Well put, sir. Is there any possibility of posting the list here? Is it practical at all? I don't have access to google docs atm. Web blockers and the like.

I will be trying to reformat it so that it fits neatly in a forum table (meaning that you would be able to sort items by caster level, gold point value or bonus adjustment value, item name, or required feats/spells by clicking the appropriate tab), but at current only the Magic Item Compendium items have even a remote chance of fitting in there, as the SRD content hasn't been formatted to fit in any sort of box.

Anyway, that's a little down the line; I've been falling behind a bit on my schoolwork, which takes precedent.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Understandable. That's fine, I'll just be patient and wait until I get home and grab the list off google-docs.

Thanks!

No problem. :smallsmile:

I do want to note, for the record, that I compiled the list basically in one sitting, so in my haste, there are bound to be errors (like the ones already mentioned). That said, if you find any of these errors, kindly bring them up and I will make the appropriate revisions. :smallredface:

[Tyndmyr]

I will point out that even by strictest E6 suggestions, there is no intent of getting rid of creatures with >6 hd or levels. Explicit reference is made to notably more powerful creatures existing.

There's a lot of creatures with spellcasting who can thus, create magic items well outside the parameters you stated. So, this is pretty much something you do have to deal with, not merely brush off. It's an inherent conflict in the parameters of E6 that isn't really dealt with in the original rules/suggestions.

[TurtleKing]

Well sounds like a creature being able to create an item beyond the limits sounds like a plot point. Such as if you need that +4 sword to slay some demon then have to visit this dragon or something.

[Tyndmyr]

You'll notice that none of said creatures take item creation feats as part of their stock feat load out, so then, logically speaking, it's pretty easy to take the position that the majority of those spellcasters don't spend their time making items, and even among those that do, the result is that higher level items will be rare enough to inherit a position equivalent to "Artifact" status.

So really, no, this is not something you have to deal with. You're making mountains out of molehills. Even if such items are going to be included, it can only possibly be at the DM's discretion, so the DM will be able to evaluate how infrequent inclusion of these items in his game world will impact the balance of his E6 game.

Not at all. You can use multiple creators, per the DMG, to fulfill the requirements of item creation. So, cooperation, voluntarily or not(be aware that things like Suggestion are available at level 6 in core...going Bard 6 will get it without any shenanigans at all) is sufficient to make higher quality items.

[Lonely Tylenol]

I will point out that even by strictest E6 suggestions, there is no intent of getting rid of creatures with >6 hd or levels. Explicit reference is made to notably more powerful creatures existing.

There's a lot of creatures with spellcasting who can thus, create magic items well outside the parameters you stated. So, this is pretty much something you do have to deal with, not merely brush off. It's an inherent conflict in the parameters of E6 that isn't really dealt with in the original rules/suggestions.

Guillintanni and TurtleKing both covered this.

This is also covered in the E6 guidelines, mind you:


Items follow a similar approach. If, as a result of the restrictions on items, an item cannot be created, then it should not be distributed as normal treasure. Like high-level monsters, such items should be placed carefully and built to make sense in the context of your game. For example, a +4 sword is an amazing artifact in this setting, perhaps even made by the gods: It's a sword no mortal could make.

If you can name me a single creature (much less a playable creature) that, in its stat block as-written, contains both spellcasting of 7th level or higher in any class and any item creation feat, then congratulations: You've just found a way to subvert an enforced hard limit on magic items, and that is to be that creature.

Otherwise, a +4 sword sounds like a major plot point, a driving force behind the party's motivations, not something that you just "do" on your downtime. In that case, congratulations, you've stumbled upon what everyone here has already seen: that items in the world can still exist above this caster level (because, for lack of better words, "there be dragons"), in a way that is entirely DM-moderated and even plot-focused, if so desired.

I myself have included weapons in my game that aren't subject to the straight limits of E6. But they're also weapons that have a legacy, a backstory, and a plot motivation to be acquired, which means that the power that they provide is something that is exceptionally rare and has an in-world, DM-directed explanation for their existence, beyond "caster level cheese allows it and the rules don't forbid it".

EDIT: I got ninja'd before my revision was posted, so editing it out and re-posting.

[Tyndmyr]

Guillintanni and TurtleKing both covered this.

This is also covered in the E6 guidelines, mind you:



If you can name me a single creature (much less a playable creature) that, in its stat block as-written, contains both spellcasting of 7th level or higher in any class and any item creation feat, then congratulations: You've just found a way to subvert an enforced hard limit on magic items, and that is to be that creature.

Otherwise, a +4 sword sounds like a major plot point, a driving force behind the party's motivations, not something that you just "do" on your downtime. In that case, congratulations, you've stumbled upon what everyone here has already seen: that items in the world can still exist above this caster level (because, for lack of better words, "there be dragons"), in a way that is entirely DM-moderated and even plot-focused, if so desired.

I myself have included weapons in my game that aren't subject to the straight limits of E6. But they're also weapons that have a legacy, a backstory, and a plot motivation to be acquired, which means that the power that they provide is something that is exceptionally rare and has an in-world, DM-directed explanation for their existence, beyond "caster level cheese allows it and the rules don't forbid it".

Or, I could go straight bard, grab an item creation feat, and cast Suggestion on one of these creatures to "make magic item x with me".

This is RAW legal, in core, with no shenanigans whatsoever.

[Benly]

Not at all. You can use multiple creators, per the DMG, to fulfill the requirements of item creation. So, cooperation, voluntarily or not(be aware that things like Suggestion are available at level 6 in core...going Bard 6 will get it without any shenanigans at all) is sufficient to make higher quality items.

1 hour per level isn't going to get a whole lot of magic item creation done. You're going to need a lot of bards working in shifts to keep that suggestion going, and also you'll have to hope your bards all stick the spell each time the creatures that actually have access to high-level spells tend to be quite a bit higher-HD than a corresponding wizard or cleric would be and frequently have spell resistance, and the last thing you want is for your magically mind-controlled dragon to snap out of it and go on a rampage halfway through the process.

But, sure, if a coalition of a dozen bards, each of them the greatest the land has ever known, all get together and work on it, they have a way to make items of legendary power. Honestly, you're just coming off like you have a bee in your bonnet to "prove" this list is somehow wrong, wrong, wrong and should have every item in the game on it for whatever reason.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Or, I could go straight bard, grab an item creation feat, and cast Suggestion on one of these creatures to "make magic item x with me".

This is RAW legal, in core, with no shenanigans whatsoever.

In regards to the "Solars are still 20th-level Clerics" conundrum:


Just as level 6 parties in d20 aren’t expected to tangle with monsters higher than CR 10, the mighty monsters of E6 require special consideration for presentation in-game. E6 characters aren't intended to go up against high-level d20 threats under the same circumstances as high-level d20 characters; those creatures, if they are defeatable at all, require the kind of resources and planning far beyond the typical d20 dungeon encounter.

In terms of raw rules, CR 7-10 monsters are an excellent guide for what 6th level characters can handle. As a party approaches 6th level plus 20 feats, that range also increases, and PCs are able to fight monsters with base CRs in the range of CR 9 to 12, or larger groups of lower-level monsters. If a campaign continues beyond this point (and congratulations, because that’s a lot of gaming) a GM should take monsters in the CR 7-12 range and use feats (and to a lesser extent templates) to advance them. Hit die or class-based advancement beyond CR 12, or base monsters above CR 12 should generally be avoided as straight-up fights in any E6 campaign.

There is no reason that any DM has to throw large quantities of high-level creatures with high-level spellcasting abilities at a low-level party, and thus, if such creatures even exist, there is no reason that they need to interact with a party of PCs directly. If they do, congratulations; you've found another DM-moderated method of item creation.

The DM decides what creatures occupy the game space. Your 6th-level bard using Suggestion on a high-level creature assumes not only that you'll be able to succeed in bending such a high-level creature to your will, but that such a creature would even exist in the first place, and that the DM would throw it at you under any context whatsoever. Hence, yet another DM-moderated method of item creation.

We're talking about a game world where the DM actively enforces item level restrictions, and you keep throwing examples at us that assume an exceedingly permissive DM would just let these things happen. Do you honestly think that a DM which is willing to impose caster limits and then enforce them is not going to think critically about how the rest of the game world interacts with the party so as to make this restriction consistent?

[TurtleKing]

@Tyndmyr: Sounds you like high magic. If you want such high magic in your E6 then see if Gnorman's E6 classes are allowed. If so take a look at the Red Mage. Pretty sure one of them can craft higher than CL 6. Note this is very DM and campaign specific. Not every DM and/or campaign that is E6 does this.

Edit: Can we discuss other aspects not covered about E6 than caster level and magic items. I think we treading on thin ice.

[dextercorvia]

Spellgifted and Arcane Thesis I'll grant you CL 9 for Create Magic Tattoo and CL 7 for Conjuration in general but I can't find any reserve feats that enhance conjuration in general or conjuration(creation) specifically. Conjuration(Healing) and Conjuration(Summoning), as well as teleportation effects, not Creation subschool. Let alone find 3 of them that affect the same thing.

I know this is largely over, and don't want to open it back up. You are correct about the Reserve feats. However, this can be gotten around by taking the Artifice, Craft, and Creation Domain abilities (either through the Wizard ACF, or Planar Touchstone feat) That will get you a +4 to the CL of Creation spells. You actually need a CL of 13 for CMT to give the +1 CL, but that is achievable.

Spellgifted Illumian (just to offset spellgifted's penalty) Wizard with Arcane Thesis, and Planar Touchstone for the three domains above, can cast Create Magic Tatoo giving him a CL of 14. Throw in Wild Mage, and Practiced Spellcaster (instead of Illumian) and it becomes 14+1d6.

[TurtleKing]

So yes it is possible with cheese or at least high op to get ones CL really high. Some of them can be enhanced by the special holy symbols in Complete Champion if it does affect. Though doing this kind of flies in the face of E6. E6 tries to keep it a bit more balanced.

Now really can we talk about another aspect...such as what templates are still usable in E6 for example?

[Tyndmyr]

1 hour per level isn't going to get a whole lot of magic item creation done. You're going to need a lot of bards working in shifts to keep that suggestion going, and also you'll have to hope your bards all stick the spell each time the creatures that actually have access to high-level spells tend to be quite a bit higher-HD than a corresponding wizard or cleric would be and frequently have spell resistance, and the last thing you want is for your magically mind-controlled dragon to snap out of it and go on a rampage halfway through the process.

But, sure, if a coalition of a dozen bards, each of them the greatest the land has ever known, all get together and work on it, they have a way to make items of legendary power. Honestly, you're just coming off like you have a bee in your bonnet to "prove" this list is somehow wrong, wrong, wrong and should have every item in the game on it for whatever reason.

Depends on the item. Leaving aside the feats and things to reduce crafting time, Suggestion doesn't break the fascinate effect. So, there's no rampage happening regardless.

Plus, there are a number of useful magic items that don't take too long to create. We're not talking about a rod of wonder necessarily, it might be just "hey, I want a scroll of that spell I don't have. He's got the spell, the wizard's got Scribe Scroll, let's make this happen".

I would not consider the above logic an example of violating what you see as rule -1. There are plenty of ways it can reasonably be used without breaking the game, or being a jerk to either the DM or the other players. Please don't assume that "this is legal" means "you should use it to ruin other people's fun".

On the topic of templates, I find them dicey...they either tend to be far too good, or not worthwhile at all. For instance, half minotaur is an easy pick for any melee char. The extra stats gained significantly outweigh the penalty in point buy for a single LA. The other features are a nice bonus. Even casters can often afford a template, though it's usually less awesome for them, since they tend to be fairly SAD to begin with. Some, such as ghost, are incredibly problematic within the context of E6, and are probably best described as not usable at all.

[Eldest]

@Tyndmyr: Sounds you like high magic. If you want such high magic in your E6 then see if Gnorman's E6 classes are allowed. If so take a look at the Red Mage. Pretty sure one of them can craft higher than CL 6. Note this is very DM and campaign specific. Not every DM and/or campaign that is E6 does this.

Edit: Can we discuss other aspects not covered about E6 than caster level and magic items. I think we treading on thin ice.

This is correct. A Magesmith Red Mage can create magical weapons or armor with an effective caster level of 12. All other magical things are created at it's regular caster level of 6.

[dextercorvia]

So yes it is possible with cheese or at least high op to get ones CL really high. Some of them can be enhanced by the special holy symbols in Complete Champion if it does affect. Though doing this kind of flies in the face of E6. E6 tries to keep it a bit more balanced.

Now really can we talk about another aspect...such as what templates are still usable in E6 for example?

Except for using Practiced spellcaster to eliminate the penalty from Wild Mage, I consider nothing else I said to be cheese.

I think an Unseelie Fey Primordial Half-Giant makes a great sorcerer. It's hard to turn down +6 to Charisma with penalties to physical stats.

[Tyndmyr]

Except for using Practiced spellcaster to eliminate the penalty from Wild Mage, I consider nothing else I said to be cheese.

I would also agree with that. Removing the penalty from Wild Mage is RAW legal, but probably not an intended combination, and as such, it's a lil bit cheesy.

Things like taking the Craft domain to craft things at a higher CL is...pretty much using it in an entirely expected and appropriate manner. Someone who takes that domain is someone you would expect to be better at crafting magic items.

[Tyndmyr]

If the DM tells you, "Dear players, in this game of E6, one of the aims is to eliminate PC access to items that require 4th level spells or a caster level of 7+ to acquire" as we've been discussing, then the example you suggest is, yes, violating rule -1, because you are deliberately circumventing the DMs intended scope for the game. Legal or not has nothing to do with it.

That's a poor end goal. Goals are things like "portay a setting similar to x". You use rules restricting mechanical things sometimes to get to goals...

But rules are not goals in themselves. In itself, that rule does not make the game better. Goals like "magic should be rare, powerful, and hard to get" give flavor, and then you can discuss the best way of getting there....goals of "CL 6 is fine, 7 is bad" are terrible. When they are PC specific, and thus, the world operates differently for the PC than everyone else, it's even worse. Breaks immersion and makes it feel more like a video game.

[SpaceBadger]

Take, for example, the E6 Balor challenge, which was won largely on the basis of contestants using 20th level WBL and high caster level items. The end result was that a party of 6th level players killed a Balor. What my party finds immersion breaking is that a party of 6th level players even amount to a threat to a Balor. My party of E6ers doesn't think they should be fighting Balors and winning.


And I, for one, would agree with them.


We're not all playing the same game.

Y'know, I would consider sigging that, but it is such a commonly-stated truth that I wouldn't know who to credit.

[Cieyrin]

I know this is largely over, and don't want to open it back up. You are correct about the Reserve feats. However, this can be gotten around by taking the Artifice, Craft, and Creation Domain abilities (either through the Wizard ACF, or Planar Touchstone feat) That will get you a +4 to the CL of Creation spells. You actually need a CL of 13 for CMT to give the +1 CL, but that is achievable.

Spellgifted Illumian (just to offset spellgifted's penalty) Wizard with Arcane Thesis, and Planar Touchstone for the three domains above, can cast Create Magic Tatoo giving him a CL of 14. Throw in Wild Mage, and Practiced Spellcaster (instead of Illumian) and it becomes 14+1d6.

Can you take Planar Touchstone for the Catalogues of Enlightenment multiple times? :smallconfused: I was under the impression that each time you chose the feat, you had to choose a different touchstone. Taking Artifice seems probably the best candidate, given I think that's the one with the +2 CL.

But anyways, we're starting to get into an argument over the intended goal of the game. Let's leave it at "There are methods to accomplish these things in E6 if you jump through enough hoops, though they're not necessarily all going to be available or warranted in any given game." and move on. There are multiple approaches to E6, like any game, and we're clearly demonstrating their existence.

As for templates, I can't think of any that are really player permissible that seem to fit into the aimed set of power. LA Races already have a nice niche as-is in the system. They all seem too immersion breaking to really work in the gritty flavor E6 tends to portray. The Goliath Warblade and the Aasimar Spirit Shaman get along fine in this setting, the Silver Half-Dragon Paladin/Sorcerer is definitely too wuxia for my tastes of E6.

[Tyndmyr]

That's an entirely arbitrary distinction. The rule has the effect of limiting players to a predefined set of tools at their disposal to solve the problems they're presented with.

Whether or not it breaks immersion is also entirely arbitrary. Again, magics above a certain level are too powerful for mortals to wield. Channeling those energies, either cooperatively with a "non-mortal" caster, or through caster level boosting is impossible for mortal casters. This in setting explanation fits well within my group's suspension of disbelief, and the limited tool set the rule creates provides them with the challenge of coming up with creative solutions to problems that they can't otherwise solve. My group likes that.

Again, not everybody conforms to your pre-conceived assumptions about what does and does not make a good rule. It comes down to what your players like at the table. The bottom line though is, legal or not, going head-to-head with a rule laid out by the DM, that the rest of the party likes, is bad for the party.

And why CL 6 over CL 7 or CL 20 or any other arbitrary distinction? That's about preserving a balance point. Levels 6-12 are fun for my group. Much further out after CL 6 allows players to start solving problems with the magic item christmas tree.

Immersion breaking is not arbitrary. Things that are inconsistent break immersion. For instance, if the PCs can never level past 6, but everyone around them can, that's hard on immersion. Tolerance levels vary, but regardless, it's not helping your game world be better.

Also, as for the "mortal" bit, what happens when someone decides, hey, necropolitan is awesome? The dead are most certainly not mortal.


Take, for example, the E6 Balor challenge, which was won largely on the basis of contestants using 20th level WBL and high caster level items. The end result was that a party of 6th level players killed a Balor. What my party finds immersion breaking is that a party of 6th level players even amount to a threat to a Balor. My party of E6ers doesn't think they should be fighting Balors and winning.

You will note that my successful entry in that challenge did not rely on anything higher than wands, created by a bog standard artificer 6. I did abuse the particular selection of spells highly, as well as metamagics, but high CL items were not something that was particularly important to me.

See, the reason that challenge was beaten in so many ways was primarily a demonstration of the offensive power of feats. This is the truly great flaw of E6.

Consider, if you will, a normal char. A barbarian or fighter, if you will. Hell, let's go with a TWF fighter, nothing particularly optimized. He gets to level 6, having done nothing particularly unusual, and then, what does he do? Does he want more offense, or defense?

If he wants more offense, he can take something like, say, powerful charge. Since he's a bog standard race, he only gets +1d8 per attack from it. Per attack. So, average of +9 damage on the charge. This is not a particularly good feat, and far better damage options exist, but hey, this is a guy who's not optimizing. He just grabs something that fits the bill, and "+damage" options are everywhere.

What if instead he wants more hp, so that he can take more damage? Well, his best option is Improved Toughness. He can take that once, and it adds only 6 hp. Gee, not keeping up with offense. If he's sunk a feat into a poor prereq, there's dwarven toughness for additional uses of +6 hp. Otherwise, he's stuck with toughness. Oh, joy.

He could take AC boosting feats instead, like the ever popular Dodge, but that's not even as good as weapon focus. Even if he does...it means he becomes more miss reliant, and any hit that gets through is constantly more likely to kill him outright.

Eventually, E6 becomes rocket tag, just like regular D&D. This is not pure theory, I've actually DMed E6 well into "lots of feats" territory, and it breaks down pretty hard.

[Tyndmyr]

Cue semantic argument about the definition of mortal...*sigh*. If you're not comfortable with the assertion that E6 has a hard cap on PC ability, and certain version of E6 have a hard cap on spell and caster level, c'est la vie. Don't play E6. Move on with your life. There's lots of fun gameplay to be had for those of us who can accept contradictions in the world around us, and especially in a fictional setting.

Vampires, zombies, etc are not generally referred to as "mortal". The state of undeath is a permanent one, and one disconnected from traditional mortality.

It is not a restriction based on being mortal, it is a restriction based on being a PC. In short, your disguise fails to accurately explain a metagame-specific limitation.


E6 becomes rocket tag almost entirely based on what you do and do not permit in your game, from feats, to higher level items. Given the assumptions you've demonstrated as applicable to your games of E6, I'm not at all surprised that your E6 turned into rocket tag. I suppose it bears mentioning again,

We're not all playing the same game.

Your experience does not match the experience my players have. I'd wager there are a few others out there whose experience also doesn't match yours. Your results under the E6 system are specific to your group and to those groups that play E6 the way you do.

Having DM'd well into the "Lots of Feats" area of play myself, I can categorically state that your experience is not universal to every game of E6.

I think it's you who are making unfounded assumption about my game. Did I say that players utilized high CL crafting in here?

As it happens, none of them chose to. The highest CL was 8, I believe, and that was not used for crafting at all. High CL items were entirely irrelevant to the game being broken. In fact, as many of the best items are defensive in nature, I theorize that allowing them would actually have reduced the self-breaking nature of E6.

The basic problem is that cleave is better than toughness. It always will be, and there's a lot more offensive feats than defensive ones. Thus, defense always falls behind eventually, and it becomes rocket tag.

[dextercorvia]

Take, for example, the E6 Balor challenge, which was won largely on the basis of contestants using 20th level WBL and high caster level items. The end result was that a party of 6th level players killed a Balor. What my party finds immersion breaking is that a party of 6th level players even amount to a threat to a Balor. My party of E6ers doesn't think they should be fighting Balors and winning.

We're not all playing the same game.

Also note, while extremely cheesy in other regards, my WBL in the Balor challenge was spent to boost initiative and save DCs, we weren't exactly using candle of invocation for Solars.

[Tyndmyr]

Also note, while extremely cheesy in other regards, my WBL in the Balor challenge was spent to boost initiative and save DCs, we weren't exactly using candle of invocation for Solars.

Honestly, I think such things were banned. "Pun puns ladder" and all that.

Init boosters were pretty common. Ways of avoiding death(such as wands of Wings of Cover) were also remarkably common. Ranged methods were popular to avoid Death Throes, but IIRC, at least one build other than mine had a tank that could charge straight in, survive the death throes by negating the damage and survive. I used luck feats to pull that one off, don't recall how others did it.

In general, I think the challenge was mostly a fun TO game, and isn't really applicable to any but the highest op of E6 games. That said, we had a success rate of something like 16 out of 23 submissions(with the others either dying, being disqual'ed on a technicality, etc), all of which were remarkably different from each other. I could see some value in describing it as "things that could be pretty broken in E6".

[Lonely Tylenol]

I think it's you who are making unfounded assumption about my game. Did I say that players utilized high CL crafting in here?

As it happens, none of them chose to. The highest CL was 8, I believe, and that was not used for crafting at all.

^ That, there, makes my list useful.

Nothing more really needs to be said.

If:
1) There exists the possibility of a hard level cap on magic items in the world, from any source;
2) There exists at least one DM that is willing to enforce such a cap in his game (or a PC that is willing to respect it in his item creation);
Then my list is useful to someone, and that's all that matters.

So can we put this tired discussion behind us? It was never my intention for my list to lead to this.

[Zonugal]

The basic problem is that cleave is better than toughness. It always will be, and there's a lot more offensive feats than defensive ones. Thus, defense always falls behind eventually, and it becomes rocket tag.

Actually in E6, given a basically unlimited amount of feats over a character's career, defense will trump offense.

If you take Toughness, Improved Natural Armor and Roll With It enough and you can run face first into damage without concern.

[Cieyrin]

Actually in E6, given a basically unlimited amount of feats over a character's career, defense will trump offense.

If you take Toughness, Improved Natural Armor and Roll With It enough and you can run face first into damage without concern.

Perhaps but you have to get that far and two of the three feats here are easily ignored if you throw around energy damage or target touch AC, like Scorching Ray, Eldritch Blast, etc. They're not exactly uncommon in an E6 environment, though if your goal is to be the toughest man on the mountain and being able to fight bears with your bear hands, you're on the right track. Just don't expect it to carry the day when your enemies change tactics.

[TurtleKing]

Hey can we move on...well we kind of did..yet not.

Since talking about feats lets talk about templates that can work in E6. Such as just what can fit with little issue?

[DemonRoach]

Hey can we move on...well we kind of did..yet not.

Since talking about feats lets talk about templates that can work in E6. Such as just what can fit with little issue?

Anything LA +4 and below, as you could bolt on the rules used for LA races (LA goes up, point buy goes down).

Though that only covers character creation, what would happen if you got the template in play?

That said, Feral and Lolth touched are always good :smalltongue:

EDIT: And Mineral Warrior

Also, here is a http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869266/Master_Template_List

[Lonely Tylenol]

Yeah, I'd be wary of acquired templates in general. A 32-point buy character (let's say, a Duskblade) who shoots for 16 STR, 16 INT, 14 DEX, and 14 CON (or something to the equivalent) ends up with 22 STR, 18 DEX, -- CON, 18 INT, 10 WIS, and 12 CHA, on top of all the other awesome abilities and statistics of a vampire (like d12 Hit Dice, +6 natural armor, DR 10/silver and magic, energy resistance 10 to cold and electricity, undead immunities, fast healing 5, and a number of cool Su and Ex abilities), just for becoming a vampire through a means other than by starting as one (in which case they use the vampire's adjusted stats in place of point buy). One suggested fix to this is to just have vampires only create vampire spawn (as the vampire spawn stat block), or have vampires' statistics adjustments replace the statistics of the existing creature instead of adding to them, so that you don't end up with a party of creatures who get every conceivable stat gain at their disposal.

Inherited templates, to me, are the same as races; apply the level adjustment as you normally would, adjust Point Buy accordingly if it's part of your system, and then proceed as normal. Then, this might be problematic for those of us who don't use Point Buy, but I also didn't have a single person who wanted to use templates (and only a handful who wanted +1 LA races), so that's neither here nor there.

[TurtleKing]

Yea see the point about that as such. For some that are acquired make it so that depending on the LA will determine how much or their class or feats in the epic section they are held back from. Say a 1st level character gets turned into a ghost then they don't level till the epic 6 part of gaining feats. Though still have the problem of being so powerful for so long while the rest are not. Only upside is their interactions are limited as in regards what they can do. Might also want to go through and weed out the SLAs and spells they might possess and if possible replace them with a weaker version. Doing that could serve to drop the LA.

[Cieyrin]

Yea see the point about that as such. For some that are acquired make it so that depending on the LA will determine how much or their class or feats in the epic section they are held back from. Say a 1st level character gets turned into a ghost then they don't level till the epic 6 part of gaining feats. Though still have the problem of being so powerful for so long while the rest are not. Only upside is their interactions are limited as in regards what they can do. Might also want to go through and weed out the SLAs and spells they might possess and if possible replace them with a weaker version. Doing that could serve to drop the LA.

I'd probably use Ghostwalk to make Ghosts work in E6, honestly. That is an interesting idea, though, as there's an awful lot of ghost feats to draw on...

[TurtleKing]

Also note most of the time templates with as many LA as Ghost are only available at character creation if starting at level six by one level then the rest as ghost. Though the ghost has some powerful abilities that are above what is capable by E6 characters. For example the Telekinesis is based off a 5th level spell by the same name. One way to downngrade it into E6 territory is exchanging it for Mage Hand, Greater or just Mage Hand if need be. As for Malevolence find a suitable spell to replicate that is in line to replace the ability with. Granted not saying making it a SLA per se just using as a template for the ability. For instance requiring the same action as before except getting a Suggestion type effect instead of Magic Jar.

Edit: After looking further at the Ghost template could also set up instead of getting one to three special attacks only get one of them. Doing this makes it so each ghost is even more different as well reducing their power. As for another special attack downgrade is for Horrific Appearance. Instead of affecting each physical stat either affects only one or the damage is reduced to one damage to each stat. This way while still having the flavor has less power. For Draining Touch could make it instead of drain to damage but still gains some health from it. Corrupting Gaze could have the damage lessened to 2d4 plus 1 Cha damage possibly. Point is taking some templates and fitting them better to E6.

[Cieyrin]

Also note most of the time templates with as many LA as Ghost are only available at character creation if starting at level six by one level then the rest as ghost. Though the ghost has some powerful abilities that are above what is capable by E6 characters. For example the Telekinesis is based off a 5th level spell by the same name. One way to downngrade it into E6 territory is exchanging it for Mage Hand, Greater or just Mage Hand if need be. As for Malevolence find a suitable spell to replicate that is in line to replace the ability with. Granted not saying making it a SLA per se just using as a template for the ability. For instance requiring the same action as before except getting a Suggestion type effect instead of Magic Jar.

Edit: After looking further at the Ghost template could also set up instead of getting one to three special attacks only get one of them. Doing this makes it so each ghost is even more different as well reducing their power. As for another special attack downgrade is for Horrific Appearance. Instead of affecting each physical stat either affects only one or the damage is reduced to one damage to each stat. This way while still having the flavor has less power. For Draining Touch could make it instead of drain to damage but still gains some health from it. Corrupting Gaze could have the damage lessened to 2d4 plus 1 Cha damage possibly. Point is taking some templates and fitting them better to E6.

...which is exactly what Ghostwalk does for ghosts, by making all those specials feats and granting bonus Ghost feats as you level as an Eidolon/Eidoloncer. You don't need to remake the wheel, it's already been made.

[TurtleKing]

Care to point me to this Ghostwalk that you speak of?

[Cieyrin]

Care to point me to this Ghostwalk that you speak of?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghostwalk

[Marthinwurer]

What are some example builds that other people use? Chargers, Lighning mace shenanigans, mailmen, and tanks can work in E6, but those are really all that I have played/ built. What are some builds tha you have used in the past or imagined?

[Coidzor]

Care to point me to this Ghostwalk that you speak of?

WOTC Site (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20030607a).

3.5 Revision. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20031225a)

[Tyndmyr]

Actually in E6, given a basically unlimited amount of feats over a character's career, defense will trump offense.

If you take Toughness, Improved Natural Armor and Roll With It enough and you can run face first into damage without concern.

Lots and lots of Roll With It is indeed a valid option. But, like all defenses, some attacks gleefully ignore it. This makes combat very all or nothing. AC operates similarly.

You could just take lots of toughness, yes, but toughness is not a great feat, and does not measure up against offensive choices in general.

It's true that, in theory, all offensive feats will eventually be taken, and you'll need to take indefinite amounts of defensive feats, but this is...not likely to come up in any actual game because of the sheer volume of available feats. Running out of feats is not generally a problem for E6.


Anything LA +4 and below, as you could bolt on the rules used for LA races (LA goes up, point buy goes down).

By the rules, sure...but in practice, a lot of templates are problematic. The aforementioned ghost template is one such example. They make a lot of things basically irrelevant in E6.

Even more mundane things, like the half minotaur, a +1 LA template, adds a natural attack, +2 natural armor, +4 str, +2 con, -2 int. Also, large, darkvision, skill bonuses, scent, size boost...it's rather a lot.

And the only cost of it is 7 points of point buy. If you're a strength heavy char, the strength boost probably makes up for that cost(and then some) all on it's own. The rest? Sheer power boost.

Template stacking is remarkably powerful for E6 chars, and can lead to some bad places for the game.


What are some example builds that other people use? Chargers, Lighning mace shenanigans, mailmen, and tanks can work in E6, but those are really all that I have played/ built. What are some builds tha you have used in the past or imagined?

Is this strictly a TO thing? I wouldn't consider lightning mace shenanigans normal for play. I mean, technically, Pun Pun works in E6, but that's pretty far outside the bounds of even normal D&D play.

[Marthinwurer]

Is this strictly a TO thing? I wouldn't consider lightning mace shenanigans normal for play. I mean, technically, Pun Pun works in E6, but that's pretty far outside the bounds of even normal D&D play.

A mix of both theoretical and practical optimization, I guess. I'll post some of my builds in a little bit.

[Tyndmyr]

A mix of both theoretical and practical optimization, I guess. I'll post some of my builds in a little bit.

Most optimization tricks still work in E6 unless they rely on multiple PrC class features. The vast majority of feats remain accessible, and D&D has a near infinite number of ways to boost skill checks, so essentially all those things still work. There's the usual infinite wealth generation possibilities and the like. Explosive Runes and Dispel both being available, you've got that trick for ridiculous damage still there. Horrible abuses of Shrink Item, like the conical hat, still exist.

Honestly, it's not significantly different from an optimization perspective. Like with gestalt, you've changed the parameters some, but you've still got most of the things available to you.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Second version of the list is coming up soon. I've completely reformatted the SRD postings and have included every book I own in alphabetical order through Complete Champion that isn't setting-specific (I will do those last).

If an item appears in the Magic Item Compendium as well as in another source, I am using the Magic Item Compendium version to eliminate redundancies (the rule of "last appearance" for items, feats, and spells).

I'll also post builds some time, although since I'm the DM, it's worth noting that some builds I make are going to operate under the assumption that the character just needs to be as big of a challenge as possible for that fight. :smallbiggrin:

[Zonugal]

So I am getting ready to run an E6 game and have stumbled upon an issue of confusion.

How do you handle wealth by level within E6? Do you simply re-give the standard wealth by 6th level every 20 feats or what? I have contemplated having a feat being available to gain more access to funds. So instead of picking up another Toughness you can select Windfall and collect a certain amount of gp.

Thoughts?

[Lonely Tylenol]

So I am getting ready to run an E6 game and have stumbled upon an issue of confusion.

How do you handle wealth by level within E6? Do you simply re-give the standard wealth by 6th level every 20 feats or what? I have contemplated having a feat being available to gain more access to funds. So instead of picking up another Toughness you can select Windfall and collect a certain amount of gp.

Thoughts?

My thoughts on items are that, after a certain number of feats into 6th level, almost any item that would normally be available for a 6th-level character to make using the hard caster cap--such as the Ring of Evasion (25,000 gp)--through some means or other. You'll never see a Staff of Power or Helm of Brilliance (unless you explicitly put them in), so after a certain number of feats (say, 10), you're to the point in the game that your party is actively in pursuit of items that are epic by game standards--so pretty much everything is fair game.

My recommendation would be to pair the wealth by level chart (http://www.msen.com/~muffin/ADD/Chars/wealthbylevel.html) with the experience chart (http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071220094005AA1r6SW) somewhat, even though they technically won't ever become the levels shown there. What that means is that a 6th-level character (15,000 exp) with 10 extra feats (+50,000 exp) is just shy of a 12th-level character in terms of experience (66,000 exp), and as such, wealth by level should reflect a character roughly 12th level.

It's worth noting that a character would still level slower, because they don't scale up directly to CR 11 creatures before reaching CR 12, so they're still earning exp for lower-CR encounters in a typical E6 setting (and are thus not earning their wealth by level quite as quickly as a character that levels straight to twelfth, meaning you can still stagger the wealth a bit).

[Urpriest]

IIRC, E6 doesn't change the XP calculation. So as a 6th level character you gain 5,000XP from 25/27 of a CR 9 encounter, 25/18 of a CR 8 encounter, 50/27 CR 7 encounters, 25/9 CR 6 encounters, 25/6 CR 5 encounters, 50/9 CR 4 encounters, 25/3 CR 3 encounters, 100/9 CR 2 encounters, or 50/3 CR 1 encounters. These work out to 4170gp, 4720gp, 4810gp, 5560gp, 6670gp, 6670gp, 7500gp, 6670gp, and 5000gp respectively. So in general an E6 character should expect 5000-6000gp per 5000XP, so they accumulate on roughly a one for one basis.

[Alienist]

For what its worth, spell gifted and arcane thesis (and possibly the reserve feats as well) are not RAW legal ways to boost your caster level for CRAFTING, they only boost it for casting.

What they would do though is boost your caster level up into the territory where other ways of boosting caster level kick in, eg the tattoo.

The problem is twofold
(1) artificers , because of their ability to emulate high level spells.
(2) items without a specific spell requirement.

A distant third would be 'enslaving an extra-planar creature', but much like the recipe for rabbit soup, first you must catch the rabbit.

Examples of 'problem items' from the SRD are the boots of elvenkind, and the bracers of archery greater. They both have CL higher then their requirements. If you figure out how to handle those, then that gives you a starting point to handle the more general question in E6.

[Tytalus]

By the rules, sure...but in practice, a lot of templates are problematic. The aforementioned ghost template is one such example. They make a lot of things basically irrelevant in E6.


The ghost template from the MM is not available to new E6 characters and thus, as an aquired template, only relevant if the DM wants it to be. It's pretty obvious that it's a bad idea, too.

The ghostwalk ghosts work completely different and are not an issue in E6 games, if they are legal at all.

I'd also like to point out that the assertion that a lot of templates are more problematic in E6 than in regular (low-level) play is not entirely correct. Of course, known borderline-broken templates (feral, mineral warrior, in particular half-minotaur, etc.) are very strong choices in E6, too. However, less so than compared to regular D&D: for each of these LA+1 templates, in E6 you will be permanently (!) 7 stat points behind compared to your D&D friend who can just buy the thing off (since all templates mentioned are from optional sources, I assume LA buyoff is fine, too) and looses a mere 3k instead (eventually much less, since Experience is a River (http://www.google.de/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=experience+is+a+river&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCQQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fcommunity.wizards.com%2Fforumhand ler%3Ft%3D695040&ei=3U5CT4CxOImg-AbLt7HSBQ&usg=AFQjCNEP3TMtQHutbnk_AZ0_kbXXwddO4g&cad=rja)). We've been over this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-222640.html).

Now, certainly there are issues with templates, but those aren't new or specific to E6. E6's unique LA rules shift the usefulness of some templates somewhat, giving the benefits earlier with long-term sacrifices in ability points. The biggest offender in E6 is probably the pixie, since it offers abilities that are difficult to deal with in an E6 world (combination of improved invisibility, flight, DR, SR) without breaking immersion / resorting to metagame, especially at ELC 1.

[Tytalus]

Most optimization tricks still work in E6 unless they rely on multiple PrC class features. The vast majority of feats remain accessible, and D&D has a near infinite number of ways to boost skill checks, so essentially all those things still work. There's the usual infinite wealth generation possibilities and the like. Explosive Runes and Dispel both being available, you've got that trick for ridiculous damage still there. Horrible abuses of Shrink Item, like the conical hat, still exist.


That doesn't seem right.

Most optimization tricks don't work in E6, in particular any that require level 4+ spells (of course there are obscure ways to get those even in E6, but generally characters don't have access to them). Anything that requires Polymorph, Shapechange, Gate, Wish, Miracle, Magic Jar, etc. doesn't work.

Some low-level tricks still work, like Explosive Runes + Dispel.

Shrink Item + Conical Hat a "horrible abuse"? Care to explain? As far as I know, the trick here is to be able to cast in an enemy's antimagic field - which likely doesn't exist in E6, given that the spell is not available. Hardly horrible, not an E6 issue.

Skill checks? Many options to boost skills checks aren't available in E6, or aren't nearly as big an issue vs. regular (high-level) D&D. E.g.: max skill ranks: -14, item familiar bonus: -14, items, etc. Not available: Greater Heroism, Moment of Precience, etc. With high-OP a diplomancer is still possible, though, just like in regular (low-level) D&D.



Honestly, it's not significantly different from an optimization perspective. Like with gestalt, you've changed the parameters some, but you've still got most of the things available to you.

The comparison to gestalt is misleading. While gestalt makes optimization easier, E6 makes it harder (considerably fewer options).

[Tyndmyr]

IIRC, E6 doesn't change the XP calculation. So as a 6th level character you gain 5,000XP from 25/27 of a CR 9 encounter, 25/18 of a CR 8 encounter, 50/27 CR 7 encounters, 25/9 CR 6 encounters, 25/6 CR 5 encounters, 50/9 CR 4 encounters, 25/3 CR 3 encounters, 100/9 CR 2 encounters, or 50/3 CR 1 encounters. These work out to 4170gp, 4720gp, 4810gp, 5560gp, 6670gp, 6670gp, 7500gp, 6670gp, and 5000gp respectively. So in general an E6 character should expect 5000-6000gp per 5000XP, so they accumulate on roughly a one for one basis.

I would expect that, as reccomended in the E6 handbook, you treat them as being effectively 1 level higher for xp purposes every so many feats(I believe 5 is the reccomended number). Otherwise, yeah, xp gains do get more and more rapid over time. If you're a level 6 party reliably crushing four level 11 encounters per day, you'll get xp stupid fast. Probably not desirable.


For what its worth, spell gifted and arcane thesis (and possibly the reserve feats as well) are not RAW legal ways to boost your caster level for CRAFTING, they only boost it for casting.

The only point in the crafting rules at which CL is relevant is for casting the spell that's a part of it. I'm aware that a few items are wonky. Fortunately, cl was never a RAW requirement to begin with, and those oddball cl requirements are basically always best ignored. The most reasonable restriction is "you have to be able to get all the spells cast to make the item".


I'd also like to point out that the assertion that a lot of templates are more problematic in E6 than in regular (low-level) play is not entirely correct. Of course, known borderline-broken templates (feral, mineral warrior, in particular half-minotaur, etc.) are very strong choices in E6, too. However, less so than compared to regular D&D: for each of these LA+1 templates, in E6 you will be permanently (!) 7 stat points behind compared to your D&D friend who can just buy the thing off (since all templates mentioned are from optional sources, I assume LA buyoff is fine, too)

All rules are optional. Variant rules are something else entirely. It is not appropriate to assume that all games with level adjust allow LA buyoff. Things like LA buyoff and gestalt, while fine variants, are most certainly not on the same level with "allowing splatbooks".

The "permanently behind" aspect is irrelevant if the template gave you more than you lost. Consider the example of a paladin considering taking the half dragon template. This is not an exceptionally good template in general, and it is certainly not a great choice in standard D&D.

Without template paladin, he gets a 32 point buy. He gets an 18 str, a 14 con, a 10 int, a 12 wis, and a 12 cha. This makes him functional.

With template paladin gets a 10 point buy. He gets basically the same things. He has to squeeze two additional points out of his build, but in return, he gets +4 NA, possibly wings, natural weapons, a breath attack(that, in E6, will remain relevant, unlike in regular D&D), Darkvision, usual dragon immunities and an energy immunity.

In short, he's just a crapton better than the non-templated paladin.

In addition, while this example doesn't cover it, templates allow significant deviation from the usual stat caps. For instance, a barbarian could gleefully use templates to get a ludicrous strength score. This is not necessarily a problem, but it can result in a significant divergence in the group's power levels that is not easily changed.


That doesn't seem right.

Most optimization tricks don't work in E6, in particular any that require level 4+ spells (of course there are obscure ways to get those even in E6, but generally characters don't have access to them). Anything that requires Polymorph, Shapechange, Gate, Wish, Miracle, Magic Jar, etc. doesn't work.

Tricks that rely on 9th level spells are not very relevant to most actual play. They're fun TO tricks, but if we're allowing TO tricks, then all those spells are available anyway. Realistically, nobody is going to allow pun pun in E6 or normal play. He's not relevant to actual games.

The vast, vast majority of gaming happens without access to 9th level spells, and the little bit that does mostly comes shortly before a campaign ends. They matter to overall balance surprisingly little.

However, the sorts of tricks, like diplomancy, that work at basically any level, ARE a problem in actual play. Wanting to be a good social char is not wrong, and getting lots of +diplomacy to support that is also quite reasonable, but the diplomacy system sort of breaks down rapidly in the face of even a moderate emphasis on it. E6 basically does nothing to address this.


Skill checks? Many options to boost skills checks aren't available in E6, or aren't nearly as big an issue vs. regular (high-level) D&D.

Guidance of the Avatar is a second level spell, and Craft Wand only requires CL 5. This is strictly within the realm of E6, and grants a +20 to any skill.

Further optimization is obviously possible, and I've gotten over +50 to a check at level 6, but realistically, that's generally unnecessary. Skill boosting has a lot of feat options available to it, and thus, E6 really isn't any better at handling skill abuses than normal D&D is.



The comparison to gestalt is misleading. While gestalt makes optimization easier, E6 makes it harder (considerably fewer options).

Optimization is not merely a function of how many options you have for a choice. It's also a function of how many choices you get. In E6, you make rather a lot of feat choices. This allows for a lot of interesting interplay between feats that is not really possible in regular D&D. There's a lot of feats, for instance, that are dependent upon taking a number of other feats to use them at all, or to get a notable benefit from them. In vanilla D&D, by the time you take them all, you might be of sufficiently high level that it's impractical for your build. E6 allows much larger feat combos.

[Cieyrin]

For what its worth, spell gifted and arcane thesis (and possibly the reserve feats as well) are not RAW legal ways to boost your caster level for CRAFTING, they only boost it for casting.

What they would do though is boost your caster level up into the territory where other ways of boosting caster level kick in, eg the tattoo.

The problem is twofold
(1) artificers , because of their ability to emulate high level spells.
(2) items without a specific spell requirement.

A distant third would be 'enslaving an extra-planar creature', but much like the recipe for rabbit soup, first you must catch the rabbit.

Examples of 'problem items' from the SRD are the boots of elvenkind, and the bracers of archery greater. They both have CL higher then their requirements. If you figure out how to handle those, then that gives you a starting point to handle the more general question in E6.

Do we really need to smack the hornet's nest once again? We've ruminated rather heavily on this topic already and we are still very much a divided camp on how it works to the point that it should be a decision made by the group and campaign how their incarnation of E6 works.

Let's also not posit what is and isn't RAW without having proof of such in front of us, eh? The rules don't distinguish and it's rather down to individual interpretation, much like how E6 crafting rules are.


That doesn't seem right.

Most optimization tricks don't work in E6, in particular any that require level 4+ spells (of course there are obscure ways to get those even in E6, but generally characters don't have access to them).

Artificers aren't obscure. Campaign specific, perhaps, but not obscure. There's also specific E6 feats that grant 4th level spells, though typically in a limited fashion.


Anything that requires Polymorph, Shapechange, Gate, Wish, Miracle, Magic Jar, etc. doesn't work.

Polymorph is 4th level and still in the realm of possibility for E6. The rest not so much, since you listed a bunch of 9s and a 6th level, except with heavy application of gouda.


The comparison to gestalt is misleading. While gestalt makes optimization easier, E6 makes it harder (considerably fewer options).

They're both variants on the rules, which requires different approaches to optimization. That's mostly what's being posited here. They differ in scale in opposite directions but you still have to apply different optimization tactics than unaugmented D&D.

[Urpriest]

I would expect that, as reccomended in the E6 handbook, you treat them as being effectively 1 level higher for xp purposes every so many feats(I believe 5 is the reccomended number). Otherwise, yeah, xp gains do get more and more rapid over time. If you're a level 6 party reliably crushing four level 11 encounters per day, you'll get xp stupid fast. Probably not desirable.


Ah ok. Still, the principle is the same. Figure out how many encounters you need to get a feat or five, figure out how much treasure is accumulated therein, subtract a bit for consumables, and there's your WBL table.

[Tyndmyr]

Ah ok. Still, the principle is the same. Figure out how many encounters you need to get a feat or five, figure out how much treasure is accumulated therein, subtract a bit for consumables, and there's your WBL table.

Indeed. In practice, I just used DMG standard random wealth generation for basically everything. It works pretty decently, and you probably won't go far amiss from standard WBL in this way.

Wealth is still going to be a notable limiting factor, even if rare, higher powered magic items are available. A Ring of Regeneration isn't really going to break E6, but it's likely sufficiently rare that the heavy cost is decently justified.

[TurtleKing]

Yep those higher level magic items are indeed available depending on the plot, DM, and campaign.

...Wait. ...Is...anyone else...getting a sense of deja vu?

Ok we have talked crafting, feats, WBL, templates, ... optimisation tricks being available, ... ... ... What else? What new part of E6 that is different from low levels of d20 are there? What haven't we talked about yet?

[Lonely Tylenol]

Yep those higher level magic items are indeed available depending on the plot, DM, and campaign.

...Wait. ...Is...anyone else...getting a sense of deja vu?

Ok we have talked crafting, feats, WBL, templates, ... optimisation tricks being available, ... ... ... What else? What new part of E6 that is different from low levels of d20 are there? What haven't we talked about yet?

Well, what would everybody really want to explore in an E6 environment, if they had the opportunity, as far as 6-level builds go? (I mean from 1 to 6, not a "you start at 6, but the build itself is terrible from 1 to 5".)

I've always wanted to play a Dragonfire Adept through to the late levels, taking the Draconic feats all the way through (with perhaps a few revisions: for example, Draconic Skin giving a Natural Armor bonus equal to half the number of Draconic feats you've taken, counting itself, and Draconic Claw giving an enhancement bonus on weapon damage rolls with the claw attacks equal to a third of the Draconic feats you've taken, or something to that effect). With the easy feat acquisition (from 6 on), a Draconic chain Dragonfire Adept would be able to realize its entire strategy, and would have at-will flight, an at-will slow effect, energy resistance, DR, respectable natural armor (with the fix on Draconic Skin), some blasting capabilities, and so on...

...But in that same vein, I'd also like to play a Fiendish Heritage Warlock. The two are very similar, but that doesn't stop me from wanting both. :smallbiggrin:

And then, of course, this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12672635&postcount=3) Warblade has been sticking out in my mind forever. I'd front-load it with two levels of martial class X (probably Fighter or Barbarian) for the purposes of making sure the second stance lines up with the point you'd get third-level stances, and simply take Martial Study (Mind over Body) at 6th level.

Finally, a Paladin 2/Favored Soul 4 may not get its second iterative attack, but a Paladin with 18 CHA would have +8 to every save (plus an additional +3 to Fort from Paladin levels, plus your CON, DEX and WIS modifiers), and would make a fun defensive character to play.

What sort of general character concepts would you all like to play?

[TurtleKing]

You know what I would like? A Truenamer that still doesn't suck in E6. Still have a (relative) hard time making the DCs all the way through the levels. At least can get all Evolving Mind 2nd level utterances by taking a feat a few times. All in all can easily get the modifer to about 27 without using Universal Aptitude. So all in all still can't get free utterances on yourself. Meaning free as in auto making the Truespeech DC on the target. Whenever want to use truenaming but wouthout the hassle keep looking at Gnorman's E6 classes. The Sage archtype Didact to be precise due to ignoring the laws as you gain levels along with DC equation rework.

[Alienist]

Do we really need to smack the hornet's nest once again?


That seems unnecessarily flame-baity. I'll forgive you since you seem to have misconstrued my point.



We've ruminated rather heavily on this topic already and we are still very much a divided camp on how it works to the point that it should be a decision made by the group and campaign how their incarnation of E6 works.

Which is exactly why I pointed at those specific items and said that if the DM ponders how he or she wants to handle those particular items then he or she will be well on the way to formulating a general rule about how they want to handle them in their own campaign.




Let's also not posit what is and isn't RAW without having proof of such in front of us, eh?


When I made the post I had checked two out of the three parts of the stated combo, and I have subsequently checked them again and by RAW none of them work.



The rules don't distinguish and it's rather down to individual interpretation, much like how E6 crafting rules are.


The rules very much do distinguish in fact. There are some caster level increases that are just that, caster level increases, and there are some caster level increases that it specifically states are "when casting spells".

Now, whether or not they intended to create two separate categories of caster level increases, one contingent on actually being in the act of casting the spell, and the other having no such riders, is a matter for speculation and RAI discussions.

But, as for RAW, it is simply a matter of record that the distinction does in fact exist.



Artificers aren't obscure. Campaign specific, perhaps, but not obscure. There's also specific E6 feats that grant 4th level spells, though typically in a limited fashion.


Some people are of the opinions that spontaneous classes with fixed lists (e.g. Warmage, Dread Necro and Beguiler) can take advantage of Versatile Spellcaster to get 4ths. It hinges on whether you 'know' those spells yet or not, which is probably a grey area.

Personally I like the idea of those particular classes having (in E6) a small advantage that 'better' casting classes don't get. Kinda evens out some of the bumps in the tier system.

[Tyndmyr]

You know what I would like? A Truenamer that still doesn't suck in E6. Still have a (relative) hard time making the DCs all the way through the levels. At least can get all Evolving Mind 2nd level utterances by taking a feat a few times. All in all can easily get the modifer to about 27 without using Universal Aptitude. So all in all still can't get free utterances on yourself. Meaning free as in auto making the Truespeech DC on the target. Whenever want to use truenaming but wouthout the hassle keep looking at Gnorman's E6 classes. The Sage archtype Didact to be precise due to ignoring the laws as you gain levels along with DC equation rework.

It really shouldn't be that hard...off the top of my head, I can think of at least four feats that boost truenaming, and there's the E6 specific feat to boost the skill cap by two, and of course, you can always take a feat for five more skill points. So, that's something like a +18 from feats and ranks alone. Toss a solid int score, and you're nearly there without a single item or buff. I built a truenamer in vanilla D&D that had +50-something to truenaming at level 6, so I don't see E6 as particularly bad off.

The bigger problem is that you only have so many good utterances to pick from. Extra Spell will never cease being good for a sorcerer, but you tend to run dry on extra awesome options fairly fast.



The rules very much do distinguish in fact. There are some caster level increases that are just that, caster level increases, and there are some caster level increases that it specifically states are "when casting spells".

Now, whether or not they intended to create two separate categories of caster level increases, one contingent on actually being in the act of casting the spell, and the other having no such riders, is a matter for speculation and RAI discussions.

But, as for RAW, it is simply a matter of record that the distinction does in fact exist.

*sigh* Core crafting rules treat the addition of the spell to the item as casting.

By strict RAW, cl is not a prerequisite at all for item creation. By RAI, cl appears to be generally used as a rough guideline for when you can create the item, as it often corresponds with when you'd have access to the spell normally. Houseruling it in as a prereq while ignoring the intent of the spells themselves being the important bit leads to odd places as mentioned already.


Some people are of the opinions that spontaneous classes with fixed lists (e.g. Warmage, Dread Necro and Beguiler) can take advantage of Versatile Spellcaster to get 4ths. It hinges on whether you 'know' those spells yet or not, which is probably a grey area.

Warmage explicitly says you does, so not a grey area in the slightest. There are additionally ways to get additional spells known, it really just depends on your groups comfort with optimization. However, it does work by RAW.

[Tytalus]

All rules are optional. Variant rules are something else entirely. It is not appropriate to assume that all games with level adjust allow LA buyoff. Things like LA buyoff and gestalt, while fine variants, are most certainly not on the same level with "allowing splatbooks".


We are not talking about variant rules in general, but LA buyoff in particular.

From my experience (also with observing threads on D&D boards) it seems that IF a group already allows some of the obscure templates you listed in their game, the chances that LA buyoff is also allowed are very high.

On the other hand, most groups seem to not allow these templates in the first place.

YMMV, obviously.



The "permanently behind" aspect is irrelevant if the template gave you more than you lost.


Consider two PCs taking a good LA+1 template, like Mineral Warrior. After a while, with LA buyoff, both are exactly the same, except that the E6 character has 7 fewer attribute points available. He's permanently behind.

Same with anything that can be bought off. The larger the LA, the longer it takes, of course, to the point that you can't buy it off entirely in E6 (but in regular D&D you can).

The half-dragon that you mention has such a high LA that it does matter. The stat distribution you suggest is unfortunately skewed in your favor and not realistic for a paladin (MAD --> 18 strength is not a good idea). You also missed a dex score. Assuming a more reasonable (http://dictummortuum.blogspot.com/2011/08/paladins-handbook.html) 15 str, 12 dex, a 14 con, a 10 int, a 14 wis, and a 14 cha, your half dragon would end up with a slightly higher strength (16), but otherwise 8 ability points behind if he tried to match these scores.

It's still a very strong choice, of course. Not quite a problematic as LA-buyoff completely negating the downside of strong templates, but definately something DMs should be aware of. The deviation from stat caps also applies to regular, even low-level D&D (lolth-touched, etc.).



Tricks that rely on 9th level spells are not very relevant to most actual play.


Then consider the ones without 9th-level spells.



They're fun TO tricks, but if we're allowing TO tricks, then all those spells are available anyway. Realistically, nobody is going to allow pun pun in E6 or normal play. He's not relevant to actual games.


Hyperbole alert!

9th-level spells =/= TO

9th-level spells =/= pun pun.



However, the sorts of tricks, like diplomancy, that work at basically any level, ARE a problem in actual play.


Indeed, as I mentioned. They work both for regular low-level D&D and for E6. Less so for the latter, as some optimization options are not available.



Guidance of the Avatar is a second level spell, and Craft Wand only requires CL 5. This is strictly within the realm of E6, and grants a +20 to any skill.


This spell is well know for its game breaking potential. It's also from an obscure, 3.0 source. It seems a bit disingenuous to assume this is a given but berate others about the use of (core) spells as being TO.



In E6, you make rather a lot of feat choices. This allows for a lot of interesting interplay between feats that is not really possible in regular D&D. There's a lot of feats, for instance, that are dependent upon taking a number of other feats to use them at all, or to get a notable benefit from them. In vanilla D&D, by the time you take them all, you might be of sufficiently high level that it's impractical for your build. E6 allows much larger feat combos.

That's a fine assertion, but little more. It assumes that the feats available are similarly powerful as those not available (which seems a bit off), and that "much larger" feat combos offer much better optimization potential than regular feat combos. I doubt both. Examples are definately needed.

[Tytalus]

Artificers aren't obscure. Campaign specific, perhaps, but not obscure. There's also specific E6 feats that grant 4th level spells, though typically in a limited fashion.

...

Polymorph is 4th level and still in the realm of possibility for E6


Artificers are well-known for being problematic in E6 since they have the ability to exceed the limitations imposed by E6, if only in terms of item creation.

Of course, it's up to the DM to decide if artificers's ability to go beyond 3rd-level spells is suitable for their game. If it is, then my point that optimization options are limited still stands, but 4th levels spells are - obviously - still on the table. I'd advise against the use of artificers, though, but YMMV.



They're both variants on the rules, which requires different approaches to optimization. That's mostly what's being posited here. They differ in scale in opposite directions but you still have to apply different optimization tactics than unaugmented D&D.

Everything that works in regular D&D also works in gestalt - often better. Not everything that works in regular D&D works in E6.

[Tytalus]

Warmage explicitly says you does, so not a grey area in the slightest. There are additionally ways to get additional spells known, it really just depends on your groups comfort with optimization. However, it does work by RAW.

Where?

Warmage says: "When a warmage gains access to a new level of spells, he automatically knows all the spells for that level listed on the warmage’s spell list." (i.e., not before). Table 1-2 specifies when he does gain access to a new level of spells.

Since Versatile Spellcaster requires that you know the spell you want to cast, this trick doesn't seem to work.

[Tyndmyr]

We are not talking about variant rules in general, but LA buyoff in particular.

From my experience (also with observing threads on D&D boards) it seems that IF a group already allows some of the obscure templates you listed in their game, the chances that LA buyoff is also allowed are very high.

On the other hand, most groups seem to not allow these templates in the first place.

YMMV, obviously.

High? Perhaps 50/50. Quite possibly less. I've certainly played less games with LA buyoff than with LA buyoff. In fact, other restrictions on LA have been MORE common, like "no more than 1 LA". These are really common.

I suggest that very few templates are actually appropriate and balanced in E6.


Consider two PCs taking a good LA+1 template, like Mineral Warrior. After a while, with LA buyoff, both are exactly the same, except that the E6 character has 7 fewer attribute points available. He's permanently behind.

Same with anything that can be bought off. The larger the LA, the longer it takes, of course, to the point that you can't buy it off entirely in E6 (but in regular D&D you can).

You are comparing an E6 char to a non E6 char. Of course it's uneven. E6 chars are not intended to be balanced against non E6 chars. That's pointless.

What matters is if the E6 char is balanced against the rest of the party.


The half-dragon that you mention has such a high LA that it does matter. The stat distribution you suggest is unfortunately skewed in your favor and not realistic for a paladin (MAD --> 18 strength is not a good idea). You also missed a dex score. Assuming a more reasonable (http://dictummortuum.blogspot.com/2011/08/paladins-handbook.html) 15 str, 12 dex, a 14 con, a 10 int, a 14 wis, and a 14 cha, your half dragon would end up with a slightly higher strength (16), but otherwise 8 ability points behind if he tried to match these scores.

I will assume that people will select templates that give stats that they want on their build. I would not assume that, say, a wizard taking half dragon is the standard for if half dragon is balanced.

18 str is not unreasonable on any melee char. Paladins are. He manages to have decent con, avoid an int penalty, and has positive modifiers for his bonuses and the like. Lack of stats will not impede his casting, and frankly, he's never going to have much casting, so heavy investment in it is not warranted.


Then consider the ones without 9th-level spells.

All the tricks you listed either included 9th level spells, or were already available in E6.


Hyperbole alert!

9th-level spells =/= TO

9th-level spells =/= pun pun.

Wish loops are TO. PaO/shapechange shenanigans mostly fall into TO. They are sufficiently flexible that not all abuses will fall into this category, but things like Beholder Mage entry...yeah, that's TO. Chain gating? TO.

These are things that are not usually allowed in most normal D&D games. And, if you really wanted to claim that they were legitimate options, they would be accessible in E6 as well, albeit with somewhat more difficulty. Realistically, they will be banned in most E6 games for the same reasons they are banned in normal games.

E6 isn't the thing solving this, a desire to play a non-broken game and a willingness to ban the broken abuse is.

Game breaking combos involving 9th level spells are not actually relevant to most games, E6 or otherwise.


This spell is well know for its game breaking potential. It's also from an obscure, 3.0 source. It seems a bit disingenuous to assume this is a given but berate others about the use of (core) spells as being TO.

The source of an abuse is irrelevant to it's use. Wish loops are strictly core, but this does not make DMs more open to infinite wishes. Additionally, nothing in my statement implies that access to this spell is a given. It is strictly making the point that an E6 game has to worry about balance just about as much as a normal game, since plenty of craziness exists. Changing the power cap just changes exactly what things exceed it.

[uote]That's a fine assertion, but little more. It assumes that the feats available are similarly powerful as those not available (which seems a bit off), and that "much larger" feat combos offer much better optimization potential than regular feat combos. I doubt both. Examples are definately needed.[/QUOTE]

Very few feats are high level only, and many of those are not fantastic. In fact, many of the most standard power feats(like power attack) are available at quite low levels. I have difficulty thinking of anything other than a few epic feats that actually have really high level prereqs and are worth anything.

As for larger combinations leading to more power? Of course they do. Synergy is what optimization is all about. Feat choices are normally very limited, and often, a good proportion of them is spent on achieving PrC entry requirements. So, you're limited rather heavily in this area. Many builds have very few feats left over after this, and the free feats tend to come from later levels. E6 mostly gets rid of this issue(and some might consider this a virtue of it). This simply means you have vastly more possible options for synergy. A great many of those options will be worse, yes, but more options is a form of power in itself, and a proliferation of options favors the optimizer.

[dextercorvia]

Where?

Warmage says: "When a warmage gains access to a new level of spells, he automatically knows all the spells for that level listed on the warmage’s spell list." (i.e., not before). Table 1-2 specifies when he does gain access to a new level of spells.

Since Versatile Spellcaster requires that you know the spell you want to cast, this trick doesn't seem to work.

So does casting a spell normally. Your reading for the ability is overly specific. It doesn't refer to table 1-2. It seems to be saying, if you could cast 4th level spells (if you knew some) then you know these. If you want to be pedantic about it, a bloodline feat, or Mother Cyst is not a waste of a feat in E6.

[Tyndmyr]

Where?

Warmage says: "When a warmage gains access to a new level of spells, he automatically knows all the spells for that level listed on the warmage’s spell list." (i.e., not before). Table 1-2 specifies when he does gain access to a new level of spells.

Since Versatile Spellcaster requires that you know the spell you want to cast, this trick doesn't seem to work.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20051018a explicitly says that a warmage explicitly knows every spell on his list, for instance. This language also exists in the class itself.

It's explicitly spelled out that a warmage pre-learns his entire fixed list, and when slots become available, he can cast them immediately with no study time or the like required. As there is no reference to his class table, your assumption that this is he only way he can cast spells is overly specific. By RAW, no such limitation is made.

[Alienist]

*sigh* Core crafting rules treat the addition of the spell to the item as casting.


Nope. The spell is triggered, but not cast.



By strict RAW, cl is not a prerequisite at all for item creation.


*DOUBLE SIGH*

I didn't say it was.

Anyway, you were the one going on about easy ways to raise CL in the context of crafting, I was simply pointing out that your presumably off the cuff choices of feats weren't actually workable if the DM was strict about RAW. If you want to house rule it in, then fine, but don't try to pass it off as RAW.



Warmage explicitly says you does, so not a grey area in the slightest. There are additionally ways to get additional spells known, it really just depends on your groups comfort with optimization. However, it does work by RAW.

And... someone rushed in and pointed out why it doesn't work according to the rules, and then you pointed out some other rule that says it does. Etc. Etc. Hence why I said it was a grey area.

[Tyndmyr]

*DOUBLE SIGH*

I didn't say it was.

Anyway, you were the one going on about easy ways to raise CL in the context of crafting, I was simply pointing out that your presumably off the cuff choices of feats weren't actually workable if the DM was strict about RAW. If you want to house rule it in, then fine, but don't try to pass it off as RAW.

If he's strict about RAW, he's not in this situation to begin with. If he's not strict about RAW, there's a number of possible things with which he needs to concern himself.


And... someone rushed in and pointed out why it doesn't work according to the rules, and then you pointed out some other rule that says it does. Etc. Etc. Hence why I said it was a grey area.

Not at all. He linked rules that were not in any way referencing each other. His reference was flat out wrong by RAW.

Now, if you feel that RAI is different from RAW in this situation(and honestly, I don't think the interaction was even considered), it is a reasonable point to house rule, but it's certainly something to consider.

My overarching point is that E6 needs some careful consideration before play, as the rules given for it are, while not bad, more like guidelines, and certainly fail to account for a number of things in anything like a definitive fashion.

[Alienist]

Artificers are well-known for being problematic in E6 since they have the ability to exceed the limitations imposed by E6, if only in terms of item creation.


An example of this:
(0) You're an Artificer, take Persistent Spell
(1) Create a wand of Suffer the Flesh
(2) Cast Metamagic Item infusion on the wand
(3) Use the Wand on yourself

Suffer the Flesh gives +1 CL per 2 points of Con damage, up to a maximum of 10 or your caster level. In this case +3 is the best we can get at caster level 6.

Now you have a caster level for the purpose of crafting of 6+2+3 = 11.

This is enough to emulate 6th level spells.

It may be possible to add steps 4-9:

(4) Make some Rods of bodily restoration
(5) Use Rod to heal Con damage
(6) Use the Wand on yourself (to go from 9 to 10)
(7) Use Rod to heal Con damage
(8) Use the Wand on yourself (to go from 10 to 11)
(9) Use Rod to heal Con damage

+5 to caster level is the maximum we can squeeze out of Suffer the Flesh.



Of course, it's up to the DM to decide if artificers's ability to go beyond 3rd-level spells is suitable for their game.


If it isn't, then Artificers are pointless. They are very sub-par crafters otherwise (nobody else needs to make skill rolls to craft for instance, and their other minor advantages such as a crafting pool and an extra item creation feat or two are rapidly rendered moot in E6).

I suppose you could treat them as a three level dip, since by 3rd level they could make items with 3rd level spells as pre-requisites.

On the other hand, Artificers are from an emphatically "high-magic" setting, and I think for a lot of people the appeal of E6 is more towards the "low-magic" end of the scale. Hence your warning against the use of them.

[TurtleKing]

Well for E6 can already say that Amulet of the Silver Tongue and Headband of Intellect are out due to CL being too high. So have a little list for Truenaming boosts I tend to use:

ranks- +9 (+11 with Skill Beyond Your Years feat)
Skill Focus Truespeech feat - +3
Intelligence modifer - should be around +5
Illumian naen sigil - +2 (Enhanced Sigils feat to raise it to +3)
Masterwork Item - +2 (if allowed)
Open Minded feat if skill points starved
Paragnostic Assembly membership - +5-10 (if in setting)

So can get upto +30 or so if all things allowed and present. If not using Illumian then use a race with Int boost though Illumian is arguably the best. As for utterance options actually have a much better time since can take the feat Lexicon of the Evolving Mind to gain a 2nd level utterance. Take multiple times to have all of them. As such while most are inferior later on they can find a use when at lower levels. Well more so than normal.

[Tyndmyr]

Well for E6 can already say that Amulet of the Silver Tongue and Headband of Intellect are out due to CL being too high. So have a little list for Truenaming boosts I tend to use:

ranks- +9 (+11 with Skill Beyond Your Years feat)
Skill Focus Truespeech feat - +3
Intelligence modifer - should be around +5
Illumian naen sigil - +2 (Enhanced Sigils feat to raise it to +3)
Masterwork Item - +2 (if allowed)
Open Minded feat if skill points starved
Paragnostic Assembly membership - +5-10 (if in setting)

So can get upto +30 or so if all things allowed and present. If not using Illumian then use a race with Int boost though Illumian is arguably the best. As for utterance options actually have a much better time since can take the feat Lexicon of the Evolving Mind to gain a 2nd level utterance. Take multiple times to have all of them. As such while most are inferior later on they can find a use when at lower levels. Well more so than normal.

Favored in Guild gets another +2, possibly +3 if both versions of it are allowed(Dubious, fairly flexible DM needed).

Shape Soulmeld(Lucky Dice) gets +1.
Keen Intellect deserves a mention, as while it's only +1, it's +1 to all int checks, so not bad overall if you're going skill monkey.

I'm also a great fan of Flexible Mind. Dragon, but gives +1 to two skills, and they always count as class skills. Again, a solid E6 choice if you're trying to be more skill monkey-ish.

Item familiars are technically possible, but the cheese factor is very high. I wouldn't allow them as written, and I expect others would not as well.

Additionally, note that lesser bloodlines in E6 are basically free boosts to skills, as you never get to level 9 to pay the level off. This is...at least somewhat cheesy. Again, check with DM.

[TurtleKing]

So all in all a +3-5 more that can be ringed out with feats without cheese. Though does use some setting material but frankly truenaming needs it.

OK guys how about a new change in subjects? Who is with me?

The subject change is.... creatures. For now leaving that broad so can narrow it down later.

[Cieyrin]

Keen Intellect deserves a mention, as while it's only +1, it's +1 to all int checks, so not bad overall if you're going skill monkey.

What version of Keen Intellect are we talking about? The only one I can find is the OA version, which changes what a bunch of Wis skills and Will saves to being Int based...

[Lonely Tylenol]

So all in all a +3-5 more that can be ringed out with feats without cheese. Though does use some setting material but frankly truenaming needs it.

If it helps any, you can ask if your DM would be willing to use the Pathfinder version of Skill Focus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/skill-focus---final), whereby 10 ranks in a skill doubles the bonus. (This is also true of skill-boosting feats in general.)

What this means is that a character who takes Skill Focus (Truespeak), maxes their Truespeak bonus, then takes the Skill Beyond Your Years feat and the Open Minded feat can have twelve (eleven? There are two versions of Skill Beyond Your Years in the guidelines, one with level +6 and one with level +5) ranks in Truespeak, which means a +6 bonus from Skill Focus (Truespeak). Obviously, allowing this means that you're going to get much higher skill checks than is normal for a sixth-level character, but if you're spending three feats to optimize a single skill in this way, then I believe that to be an appropriate investment.


The subject change is.... creatures. For now leaving that broad so can narrow it down later.

My favorite "creatures" are usually humanoids, monstrous humanoids, or aberrations with class levels, as I am running a game where warring kingdoms and races feature prominently. Sometimes, I like to build bizarre character concepts to throw at my party (sometimes, these concepts end up being very stupid, and it doesn't help that I discuss some of them with the other high-op player in my area). One idea that I had for this was the "pouncing death machine", which was a Human Barbarian 4/Warblade 1/Fighter 1 with the Whirling Frenzy and Lion Totem variants, and the following feats:

1) Two-Weapon Fighting
Human) Power Attack
3) Improved Bull Rush
6) Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Fighter 1) Shock Trooper

And the following point buy (32):
STR: 16
DEX: 16 (+1 at level 4)
CON: 16
INT: 8
WIS: 10
CHA: 8

Warblade at 5th level gives access to Punishing Stance, for the +1d6/-2 AC, plus Wall of Blades to replace one attack with an opposed attack roll (which you'll want to do as often as possible) and Mountain Hammer (for general utility). You can decide what you want the third to be; maybe a counter.

While in a whirling frenzy, this character could make a charging pounce (let's assume it's just using two masterwork short swords) with five attacks at +10/+10/+10/+5/+5, each of which can do 2d6+11 damage (1d6 masterwork short sword + 1d6 Punishing Stance 5 STR + 6 Power Attack). If the barbarian takes Wolf Totem and gains Improved Trip in place of Uncanny Dodge, it can basically just keep making trips until it succeeds, and then pummel its opponents while they lay prone.

Of course, I wouldn't think to throw something like this at my party (since it would undoubtedly insta-gib most of them), but I have been thinking of a Whirling Dervish version. Perhaps a Thri-Kreen Dervish or something of the equivalent. :smallbiggrin:

Thus far, the big bads in my campaign (that my party knows of) include an illithid triad and three human (? :smallwink:) generals. Of course, more is going on beneath the surface, but this is what they know of.

EDIT: Here's (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=373653) the human version. I figured I'd make it for fun. It may yet find its way into my campaign, but as a late-stage opponent.

[Tytalus]

I've certainly played less games with LA buyoff than with LA buyoff.

Wat.



I suggest that very few templates are actually appropriate and balanced in E6.


So far we haven't seen much of that. All LA+1 templates, including the oney you mentioned, are strictly worse in E6 if you consider LA buyoff.

Templates with higher LA can be a problem (much as they are in regular D&D, for similar and different reasons).



You are comparing an E6 char to a non E6 char. Of course it's uneven. E6 chars are not intended to be balanced against non E6 chars. That's pointless.

What matters is if the E6 char is balanced against the rest of the party.


If the claim is that templates in E6 are more broken than in regular D&D, then it most certainly is not pointless. And the bottom line is also important: these templates create less problems in an E6 environment than in regular D&D with LA buyoff (and, depending on the template, without LA buyoff, too).



18 str is not unreasonable on any melee char. Paladins are. He manages to have decent con, avoid an int penalty, and has positive modifiers for his bonuses and the like. Lack of stats will not impede his casting, and frankly, he's never going to have much casting, so heavy investment in it is not warranted.


Feel free to choose any artificial setup you like and draw your own conclusions from it. I went by well-known guides on paladins, which disagree with your assessment.



All the tricks you listed either included 9th level spells, or were already available in E6.


That is not correct.



E6 isn't the thing solving this, a desire to play a non-broken game and a willingness to ban the broken abuse is.


That sounds an awful lot like Oberoni.

Point is, these things aren't an issue in E6. They are in regular D&D.



Very few feats are high level only, and many of those are not fantastic.

...

As for larger combinations leading to [much] more power? Of course they do.

Again, merely assertions. What are the example for "much larger" feat combos being much more powerful?

[Tytalus]

If it isn't, then Artificers are pointless.

It seems that you are suggesting that artificers only have a point if they are able to break the game.

YMMV, but IMHO artificers are still viable in E6 even without this particular ability.

[Tytalus]

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20051018a explicitly says that a warmage explicitly knows every spell on his list, for instance.

Thanks! It's not a RAW source, unfortunately, so it's highly debatable. Either it shows the RAI, or it was merely an oversight, since it contradicts the class description in CArc.



This language also exists in the class itself.

That is not correct. In the class description, this is strictly limited by the condition "when a warmage gains access to a
new level of spells ...". Spell access is generally defined by class level progression.



It's explicitly spelled out that a [...] when slots become available, he can cast them immediately with no study time or the like required.

That is also not correct. In fact "slots" is not even used/mentioned in that article.

[Alienist]

It seems that you are suggesting that artificers only have a point if they are able to break the game.

YMMV, but IMHO artificers are still viable in E6 even without this particular ability.

How so? If they are limited to 3rd level effects then they can't even make homunculus's for instance.

You genuinely might as well be a proper caster, since crafting feats are cheap. And if you are a proper caster, when you craft you don't need to jump through all the stupid hoops that Artificers do.

If you say "aha! but an Artificer can make divine and arcane items!", well, so can anyone else who has an appropriately levelled divine/arcane (whichever you don't have) buddy (or even a team-mate).

The headache of all their UMD malarkey is easily offset in other characters simply by making a friend or two...

[Lonely Tylenol]

So far we haven't seen much of that. All LA+1 templates, including the oney you mentioned, are strictly worse in E6 if you consider LA buyoff.

Eh. If I wanted to play a martial character, a goliath with 25 Point Buy is probably better than a human with 32.

Here's what the buys might look like:

Human:
STR: 18 (16 points)
DEX: 14 (6 points)
CON: 16 (10 points)
INT: 8
WIS: 8
CHA: 8

Goliath:
STR: 21 (13 points + 4 racial bonus)
DEX: 12 (6 points - 2 racial penalty)
CON: 16 (6 points + 2 racial bonus)
INT: 8
WIS: 8
CHA: 8

I'm trading one to my DEX modifier for one to my STR modifier (and taking a commensurate penalty to my AC, Reflex save and Initiative), but I can mitigate the AC loss by wearing heavier armor, and I get a to-hit and damage bonus for the extra STR modifier. At fourth level, I can even out a stat with a goliath, while the attribute point the human gets is meaningless.

And then, of course, there's the Powerful Build trait, which one might argue is much more useful to a character in E6 than feats.

Stats-wise, Earth Genasi are also an admirable choice for Strength-based melee (but more if you want the heavy Con). Half-Ogres of Krynn are strictly superior (they don't have the Dex penalty and instead take penalties to two dump stats), though they're campaign-specific.

A catfolk with 25 point buy can make a better Dex-based character (such as a finesse rogue, scout or ranger) than a halfling in a min-maxed game, because they don't need to reach into the extremes of the attribute pool. They also have decent stats for the face, all told.

Considering that these races often have decent-to-good abilities to go with their LA (catfolk has fast movement, low-light vision, and a natural armor score, which aren't that impressive, I suppose, but strictly better than most all LA+0 rogue-like races; goliaths and half-giants get powerful build and, well, powerful build, and everything else is gravy), they kind of become obvious choices above anything else for those build types ("build types" being anything keyed off STR or DEX, mind you).

I mean, it's not like they're getting innate flight, SR, multiattack, or anything along those lines (those are reserved for the LA+2 races and above). But considering that their LA is completely bought off with only a few thousand EXP, they're still a very strong (if not outright obvious) choice in many situations.

[Benly]

How so? If they are limited to 3rd level effects then they can't even make homunculus's for instance.

You genuinely might as well be a proper caster, since crafting feats are cheap. And if you are a proper caster, when you craft you don't need to jump through all the stupid hoops that Artificers do.

If you say "aha! but an Artificer can make divine and arcane items!", well, so can anyone else who has an appropriately levelled divine/arcane (whichever you don't have) buddy (or even a team-mate).

The headache of all their UMD malarkey is easily offset in other characters simply by making a friend or two...

The value of an artificer who isn't engaging in game-breaking shenanigans, in E6 as in normal play, depends on the accessibility of other resources. An artificer does not need to know or have access to someone who knows the spell he wants to use, which is a step up over the wizard if unlimited access to scrolls is not assumed.

Also, if you need to get someone else to cast the spells for you, they don't count in your favor. At least, those are the rules whenever people are talking about fighters or monks, so why are we suddenly making an exception for wizards getting clerics to cast spells for them? The artificer can do it himself, and in every other conversation about class capabilities that gets counted as a huge merit. If you went into a "fighter vs. wizard, round 5000! lol!" thread and said "the complications of being a fighter are easily offset by making a friend or two", well, you would not generally be greeted with kind words.

There's also Retain Essence (value or lack thereof, again, depends on how available and generous Magic-Marts are) and Metamagic Spell Trigger still works just fine for the E6 artificer.

Personally, I would let an E6 artificer emulate spells above third level only for purposes of items that don't actually cast those spells - Arcane Eye for homunculi, Shout for a Chime of Interruption, and so on. You'd probably want some other kind of restrictions on them, and it's purely the realm of house rules, but I think letting artificers make better magic items without actually giving them higher-level spell effects is a good idea for E6.

[Tytalus]

Eh. If I wanted to play a martial character, a goliath with 25 Point Buy is probably better than a human with 32.

It likely is, but the difference is considerably smaller than with regular D&D and LA buyoff, where you don't have to reduce your pointbuy value *and* can make up for the LA adjustment.

[Tytalus]

Personally, I would let an E6 artificer emulate spells above third level only for purposes of items that don't actually cast those spells - Arcane Eye for homunculi, Shout for a Chime of Interruption, and so on.

That's an excellent idea.

[Tyndmyr]

What version of Keen Intellect are we talking about? The only one I can find is the OA version, which changes what a bunch of Wis skills and Will saves to being Int based...

While thats also possibly useful for the skill monkey aspect(int crushing wis on any normal truenamer), I must have confused my skill boosting feats.

Sadly, while there's a lot of skill boosting feats, truenaming lacks a +2/+2 feat for it, so it's a lot of splatbook diving for oddball +1s here and there. Also, be careful about bonus types. There are a few ways to get a +1 luck bonus, for instance, but they don't stack. You can still get a pretty solid bonus in E6, but if you want it well past auto-success level, you may have to do a little digging.

Now, if you can get to 12 ranks in Truenaming, you qualify for Quicken Utterance. Skill Beyond Your Years is needed for this(if only the +5 version is available, you will also require the Cityscape version of Favored in Guild).

However, an alternate option to meta-utterances in E6 is noting that each utterance is in fact an SLA, and meta-SLA feats are available that do not increase your truenaming check at all.



That is not correct. In the class description, this is strictly limited by the condition "when a warmage gains access to a
new level of spells ...". Spell access is generally defined by class level progression.

Generally defined? I'm sorry, but that's not the only way by RAW. That's not a RAW limiting factor. Access is access.



So far we haven't seen much of that. All LA+1 templates, including the oney you mentioned, are strictly worse in E6 if you consider LA buyoff.

You gleefully skipped by the point where I pointed out that bringing in LA buyoff is comparing a non-E6 char to an E6 char, and pointing out that the non-E6 is more powerful.

While true, that's also trivial and pointless. E6 chars were never supposed to be balanced against non E6 chars. What matters is if the E6 chars in your party are balanced against each other.



If the claim is that templates in E6 are more broken than in regular D&D, then it most certainly is not pointless. And the bottom line is also important: these templates create less problems in an E6 environment than in regular D&D with LA buyoff (and, depending on the template, without LA buyoff, too).

Balance in E6 is different than balance in regular D&D.

In regular D&D, by the time you've bought off a coupla LA and regained the xp, you're at a fairly high level. Most LA templates are melee focused. So...now the melee guy has half-minotaur or whatever. Yay. The caster is casting 9th level spells. The melee guy is not breaking the game.

Note that missing class levels are, in the meantime, a notable cost, too. Just because you can eventually buy it off, and then eventually gain back the xp, does not negate the fact that for most of your career, you were behind on class features. XP is a river is vastly overstated. Run the actual math on it.


That sounds an awful lot like Oberoni.

Point is, these things aren't an issue in E6. They are in regular D&D. [/quot]

It is a simple acknowledgement that E6, by strict RAW, is no better than regular D&D. That is not Oberoni whatsoever.

I'm confused that you recited my point back to me as if it was an argument.

[QUOTE=Tytalus;12768267]Again, merely assertions. What are the example for "much larger" feat combos being much more powerful?

Look up the "kill a balor in E6" thread. Note the feat combos involved with this. For instance, the luck feat combo to avoid death 1/day was much more useful in there than in normal D&D, where it's a bit feat intensive to see much actual play. There's literally scores of different large feat combos in this thread. Enjoy.


It seems that you are suggesting that artificers only have a point if they are able to break the game.

YMMV, but IMHO artificers are still viable in E6 even without this particular ability.

Look, if you made a rule that wizards could not cast third level spells, taking six levels in wizard would also be pointless. You're not really gaining much with those last levels. Artificer, same same. You're left with front loaded abilities, and dead levels at the end.

The normal result of this is that nobody takes the dead levels, and this is considered bad class design.

I do not argue that Artificer is a very powerful class...it certainly is, but lopping progression off the end for item crafting doesn't really fix it properly.

[Cieyrin]

The value of an artificer who isn't engaging in game-breaking shenanigans, in E6 as in normal play, depends on the accessibility of other resources. An artificer does not need to know or have access to someone who knows the spell he wants to use, which is a step up over the wizard if unlimited access to scrolls is not assumed.

Also, if you need to get someone else to cast the spells for you, they don't count in your favor. At least, those are the rules whenever people are talking about fighters or monks, so why are we suddenly making an exception for wizards getting clerics to cast spells for them? The artificer can do it himself, and in every other conversation about class capabilities that gets counted as a huge merit. If you went into a "fighter vs. wizard, round 5000! lol!" thread and said "the complications of being a fighter are easily offset by making a friend or two", well, you would not generally be greeted with kind words.

There's also Retain Essence (value or lack thereof, again, depends on how available and generous Magic-Marts are) and Metamagic Spell Trigger still works just fine for the E6 artificer.

Personally, I would let an E6 artificer emulate spells above third level only for purposes of items that don't actually cast those spells - Arcane Eye for homunculi, Shout for a Chime of Interruption, and so on. You'd probably want some other kind of restrictions on them, and it's purely the realm of house rules, but I think letting artificers make better magic items without actually giving them higher-level spell effects is a good idea for E6.

I would argue that Retain Essence maintains value in that you can customize equipment that much easier, if you're receiving loot from encounters that isn't of much value to the party. The XP can be put into items that are useful to the party without forcing somebody to lag behind for cheaper in monetary funds than what any local Magic Peddlers are charging.

There's also the fact that, yes, a Wizard or Cleric can spend the feats on those Crafting feats but the Artificer does not have to and can use his feat resources to enhance his crafting or whatever else he wants, including powering up Metamagic Spell Trigger, so the Artificer comes out ahead on that front.

@Tytalus: Just a note but you can quote multiple people per post. That's what that double quote button does at the bottom of posts. Convenient, is it not? :smallcool:

[Tytalus]

Generally defined? I'm sorry, but that's not the only way by RAW. That's not a RAW limiting factor. Access is access.


Yet "access" in not explicitly granted in RAW.



You [snark removed] skipped by the point where I pointed out that bringing in LA buyoff is comparing a non-E6 char to an E6 char, and pointing out that the non-E6 is more powerful.

While true, that's also trivial and pointless. E6 chars were never supposed to be balanced against non E6 chars. What matters is if the E6 chars in your party are balanced against each other.


My point is that E6 characters are better balanced against each other under these conditions than regular D&D characters are balanced against each other under these conditions. That is very relevant for a discussion of E6 vs. regular D&D.



So...now the melee guy has half-minotaur or whatever. Yay. The caster is casting 9th level spells. The melee guy is not breaking the game.


Previously, your standpoint was that 9th level spells are TO and not relevant? That doesn't make much sense to me.



XP is a river is vastly overstated. Run the actual math on it.


I've sketched that out for you in the previous thread that I linked above. I welcome you to do the same.



It is a simple acknowledgement that E6, by strict RAW, is no better than regular D&D. That is not Oberoni whatsoever.


That's not true. Fewer optimization options = less/harder optimization.

If your standpoint is that broken rules (9th level spells) are a non-issue, because they aren't used in actual play, then that's is, in fact, a clear case of Oberoni.

In E6 these kinds of brokeness are not available. By RAW.



Look up the "kill a balor in E6" thread. Note the feat combos involved with this. For instance, the luck feat combo to avoid death 1/day was much more useful in there than in normal D&D, where it's a bit feat intensive to see much actual play. There's literally scores of different large feat combos in this thread. Enjoy.


As far as I can see, none is unavailable in regular D&D. For a convincing argument this is getting pretty close to TO territory (as you used the term, i.e. not allowed in "normal play"), too. The only obvious abuse I see is Factotum with oodles of (already known as potentially broken) Font of Inspiration.

[Tyndmyr]

Yet "access" in not explicitly granted in RAW.

You can cast spells of that level. Access is not a game defined term, it uses the normal rules of English. By those rules, yes, someone with the feat has access to casting spells of that level. Table 1-2 does not utilize the word "access" either, so your conclusion does not follow from this premise.


My point is that E6 characters are better balanced against each other under these conditions than regular D&D characters are balanced against each other under these conditions. That is very relevant for a discussion of E6 vs. regular D&D.

You have not made this comparison yet. Thus, it is merely a claim which you have not backed up.


Previously, your standpoint was that 9th level spells are TO and not relevant? That doesn't make much sense to me.[/quote[]

I did not state that. I said that TO combos using 9th level spells, like wish loops, are not relevant to normal games. You've jumped from my criticism of pun-pun/wish loops to all 9th level spells.

Please stop mischaracterizing my words.


[quote]I've sketched that out for you in the previous thread that I linked above. I welcome you to do the same.

You linked two threads for it. The first one is the initial thread that has been linked a million times. You will note that while it makes claims about catching up, it does not actually explain it's methodology. In addition, it makes sketchy claims like 1 xp = 12.5 gp. At best, this is a dramatic oversimplification. Liquidity is a major problem.

The second is a thread about E6 which, appears to have nothing to do with the math of LA buyoff. You make the same claim there, but it is again unsupported.


That's not true. Fewer optimization options = less/harder optimization.

No. If you have ten thousand choices, but only a single point of decision for making this choice, finding the most powerful option is trivial.

Optimization is only non-trivial due to synergy and quantity of choice points. 3.5 Optimization is NP hard specifically because of thi.


If your standpoint is that broken rules (9th level spells) are a non-issue, because they aren't used in actual play, then that's is, in fact, a clear case of Oberoni.

You realize that you didn't quote that at all, right? This accusation stems from your response to my description of E6 as guidelines, not hard and fast rules, in which I pointed out that additional rules are required to make them not trivially breakable.


In E6 these kinds of brokeness are not available. By RAW.

*sigh* Wish loops exist in E6 by RAW. Pun Pun works just fine in E6. I can pull off 9th level powers by RAW in E6.

This, however, is not that big a deal, because pun-pun is not a pressing worry to your game, and it is handled exactly the same way pun-pun in a normal game is played. In short, TO is not generally used in regular games.


As far as I can see, none is unavailable in regular D&D. For a convincing argument this is getting pretty close to TO territory (as you used the term, i.e. not allowed in "normal play"), too. The only obvious abuse I see is Factotum with oodles of (already known as potentially broken) Font of Inspiration.

Look, each char listed had 30 feats. This is not TO, this is the results of a comparable amount of xp to acheiving level 20, IIRC. Things like infinite loops and arbitrarily large loops were banned. This is reasonable.

So, you've got stuff like people gleefully finding every feat that boosts X, wherever x is their shtick. 30+ feats is not normally acheivable in normal D&D in 20 levels without crazy optimization levels. In E6, it is arrived at eventually naturally. This alone does not make something TO. That's just a long campaign of E6.

[Tytalus]

You have not made this comparison yet. Thus, it is merely a claim which you have not backed up.


I've backed that claim several times with comparisons. In fact, the very portion that I quoted from you commented on one such comparison.

You claimed that those LA +1 templates are problematic for balance / broken in E6, I pointed out that buyoff makes them less broken than in regular D&D (ergo, balance is better in E6 in that respect).




Previously, your standpoint was that 9th level spells are TO and not relevant? That doesn't make much sense to me.

I did not state that. I said that TO combos using 9th level spells, like wish loops, are not relevant to normal games. You've jumped from my criticism of pun-pun/wish loops to all 9th level spells.


Not quite. You said: "Tricks that rely on 9th level spells are not very relevant to most actual play. They're fun TO tricks, ...". Ergo, 9th level spells turn trick into TO or 9th level spells are TO themselves.

You also said: "The vast, vast majority of gaming happens without access to 9th level spells, and the little bit that does mostly comes shortly before a campaign ends", so I have to wonder why you chose this as a comparison point. It apparently (according to you) doesn't really matter, it also skews the comparison, since templates tend to be most problematic at low levels.



You linked two threads for it. The first one is the initial thread that has been linked a million times. You will note that while it makes claims about catching up, it does not actually explain it's methodology.

It's right there in the first post.



The second is a thread about E6 which, appears to have nothing to do with the math of LA buyoff. You make the same claim there, but it is again unsupported.


Perahps you overlooked it: "As an approximation, it's pretty simple: assume you are behind for 3/13 encounters per level (see above), then simply multiply the extra experience gained row shown in the article by 3/13, and you'll see that you'll bridge the gap quite quickly. Especially for such small amounts ..."



No. If you have ten thousand choices, but only a single point of decision for making this choice, finding the most powerful option is trivial.

Optimization is only non-trivial due to synergy and quantity of choice points. 3.5 Optimization is NP hard specifically because of thi.


I'm afraid this theoretical assertion has nothing to with the concrete issue of E6: Many, many options removed (i.e., everything that's not possible in E6, such as level 4+ spells, prestige classes, high-level feats, magic items, etc.), very few new options (pretty much just longer feat chains, for which a strong optimization potential has not been established - certainly nothing to rival the non-available high-level optimization options). Obviously, the optimization potential is much lower.



You realize that you didn't quote that at all, right? This accusation stems from your response to my description of E6 as guidelines, not hard and fast rules, in which I pointed out that additional rules are required to make them not trivially breakable.


Really? You insinuate that problematic (high level) options aren't a problem ("Game breaking combos involving 9th level spells are not actually relevant to most games"). That's right along what Oberoni is all about.

But high level options like 9th level spells are a problem. And they are readily available in regular D&D. They aren't in E6.

[Tyndmyr]

Really? You insinuate that problematic (high level) options aren't a problem ("Game breaking combos involving 9th level spells are not actually relevant to most games"). That's right along what Oberoni is all about.

But high level options like 9th level spells are a problem. And they are readily available in regular D&D. They aren't in E6.

Yes. That is called a "difference in opinion", not a fallacy.

Imprisonment, Freedom, Power Word Kill, Wierd, Energy Drain...these are all 9th level spells. They are not broken in regular D&D.

Things like wish loops are. A single wish, not so much. Do you see the difference between "TO tricks involving 9th level spells" and regular old 9th level spells yet?

Addendum: All your LA stuff is happily disproven at XP is not a river (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=233782).

[Tytalus]

Yes. That is called a "difference in opinion", not a fallacy.


If you claim a broken rule is not an issue because DMs don't allow it, then that's in fact Oberoni.



Addendum: All your LA stuff is happily disproven at XP is not a river (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=233782).

"Happily disproven"? :smallsigh:

No. You present the same (false) claims as before without actually doing the math. I've shown how that actually works out. Check my post in that thread.

[Marthinwurer]

I probably should post some of the builds that I said that I would, shouldn't I? Without any further ado:

Kukri Crit Fisher

This is a Warblade Kukri crit fisher built for lightning mace/aptitude Fun. First level is a Barbarian dip, but if there is a Warblade capstone feat that requires Warblade 6 at your table with bonuses better than pounce, then replace it with Warblade.*
Human Barbarian 1/Warblade 5 14/18/14/14/9/8 (32 PB and level up to Dex)
{table=head]Level|Class|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Skills|Feats|Class Features

1st|Barbarian 1|
+1|
+2|
+0|
+0|Listen 4, Intimidate 4, Concentration 2, Balance 2, Tumble 2, Spot 2|Human Bonus: Two Weapon Fighting; 1: Weapon Focus (Light Mace)|Spirit Lion Totem (Pounce), Illiteracy, rage 1/day

2nd|Warblade 1|
+2|
+5|
+0|
+0|Concentration 5, Balance 4, Tumble 3|-|Battle Clarity, Weapon Aptitude, Maneuvers, Stances

3rd|Warblade 2|
+3|
+5|
+1|
+1|Concentration 6, Balance 5, Tumble 5, Twisted Charge Skill Trick|3: Combat Reflexes|Battle Ardor

4th|Warblade 3|
+4|
+6|
+1|
+1|Concentration 7, Balance 6, Listen 5, Spot 3|-|Uncanny Dodge

5th|Warblade 4|
+5|
+6|
+1|
+1|Concentration 8, Balance 8, Spot 4.5|-|-

6th|Warblade 5|
+6/+1|
+7|
+2|
+2|Concentration 9, Balance 9, Spot 6|6: Lightning Mace; Warblade Bonus: Blade Meditation|Bonus Feat[/table]

Bonus Feats
1: Improved Two Weapon Fighting (if leadership is available, take it and bump everything else down)
2: Two Weapon Rend
3: Weapon Finesse
4: Martial Study: White Raven Tactics
5: Dodge
6: Combat Expertise
7: Karmic Strike
8: Double Hit
9: Mobility
10: Elusive Target

Maneuvers
Moment of Perfect Mind
Stone Bones
Wolf Fang Strike
Sudden Leap Wall of Blades
Rabid Wolf Strike
Iron Heart Surge

Stances
Blood in the Water
Wolverine Stance

This build uses fractional BAB/Saves, and allows the taking of the Warblade's second stance at Warblade 5


I'll do the skills in a little bit. Finished.

[ideasmith]

If you claim a broken rule is not an issue because DMs don't allow it, then that's in fact Oberoni.



Are you also assuming that generic classes (Unearthed Arcana, page 76) are in use? Or are you committing Oberoni Fallacy, as apparently defined by yourself?

[TurtleKing]

For the ones who are in a heated debate thank you. I no longer want to follow this thread thanks to you.

[Tyndmyr]

Are you also assuming that generic classes (Unearthed Arcana, page 76) are in use? Or are you committing Oberoni Fallacy, as apparently defined by yourself?

Generic classes are an interesting idea, and running an E6 game with them is certainly a possibility, but I would definitely not assume that any E6 game(or any other game, for that matter) allowed them. All games have some parameters you need to stay within. Things like pun pun, variant rule systems, or thirdparty materials are traditionally things that you should ask about beforehand, since they're not normally automatically allowed.

[Marthinwurer]

For the ones who are in a heated debate thank you. I no longer want to follow this thread thanks to you.

Yeah. If you two want to argue some more, would you move it to PMs or another thread?

[Tyndmyr]

Look, I've been participating in this discussion with a number of people, not solely arguing with tytalus. Nor have their been only two people in the discussion of any of this. I do not intend for this to be heated, but it IS on topic, and there's no particular reason that people can't discuss this or other aspects of E6 should they prefer.

In short, if you'd prefer that the discussion follow a different path, please post about what you'd like to see instead instead of merely complaining about what others are interested in.

[Marthinwurer]

Look, I've been participating in this discussion with a number of people, not solely arguing with tytalus. Nor have their been only two people in the discussion of any of this. I do not intend for this to be heated, but it IS on topic, and there's no particular reason that people can't discuss this or other aspects of E6 should they prefer.

In short, if you'd prefer that the discussion follow a different path, please post about what you'd like to see instead instead of merely complaining about what others are interested in.

Sorry then, I guess that I'm in the wrong. After reading the first few posts from you and Tytalus I just started to skim. As for the second point, I would like to see some other people's builds and some constructive criticism of mine.

[TurtleKing]

Its the "heated" part I don't like. Besides I have on a few times tried changing the subject. One in particular saying thinking we were on thin ice.

EDIT: I have had an interesting idea. I am wondering how well an E6 character can fight in a certain situation and/or against certain enemies. Well then looking at my signature it hit me. I have a thread up so DMs can have PCs defend locations in tower defense style. This also lets the players test out their builds. So for those discussing how a build would work I have a way to test that. This also allows to explore the mechanics of E6 for monsters, characters, and more without the needing to worry about the roleplaying part so much though bonus points if included.

So how do you think a <insert E6 build here> would do in that situation for any such build? Such as here is a city to get you started: http://dungeon-divas.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/cauldron-map-copy11.jpg Feel free to test this out.

[Tyndmyr]

Sorry then, I guess that I'm in the wrong. After reading the first few posts from you and Tytalus I just started to skim. As for the second point, I would like to see some other people's builds and some constructive criticism of mine.

*shrug* No point worrying about it, not everything's gonna interest everyone. I ran through Red Hand of Doom a while back with E6 rules...loot was not generally changed from normal drops, but with the exception of the rod o' healing, it's not an especially high magic campaign. That mostly just functions as a "you get one free rez" anyway, so I didn't consider it much of a big deal.

We had a dread necro, a hexblade, a warmage, a cleric, and a rogue, IIRC. Might be missing one. Oh, right, the ranger. The warmage grabbed Arcane Thesis(fireball) and the fire reserve feat for 9d6+2(edge) fireballs, and basically did nothing but that...would have been quite effective had the player had even the slightest inclincation of subtlety. As it was, he rolled into an evil party with "crusader" written in his alignment slot, and was dead set on forcing everyone to his way of things. This went as poorly as these things usually go, and he died alone in the woods, his buddies stabbing him a lot. Solid build, though, and I'm convinced that warmage is a quite viable choice in E6.

The dread necro was pretty standard. Tomb tainted soul, all that. Lots of stuff to buff his undead, including some feat or something for having them give off bursts of negative energy when they died.. Thanks to availability of big corpses, he had a fairly potent entourage. On the flip side, the bane of all minion mancers...bookwork and slow turns, was a problem here. He also had a problem with parking aoe spells on the party, which once got them all captured.

The ranger was terrible, but again, mostly the players fault. He put literally everything into damage, but was sufficiently overconfident in this that he abandoned the party, wandered around the woods at night, and gleefully shot at whatever he saw until he got beaten into the ground. He was not rezzed.

The hexblade was probably the most effective party member(except possibly the diplomancing cleric), utilizing Extra Spell wisely as well as debuffing feats, and had a lovely array of debuffs...He also got the standard melee feats(cleave, power attack, etc), and fights frequently started with him chaining debuffs and ended with him smashing something. Partly because of this, I started notably inflating fight difficulty levels about a third of the way into the campaign.

An E6 tower-defense style game does sound remarkably interesting...should this ever be implemented in pbp, I'd definitely try it out to test more unusual builds.

[TurtleKing]

Well looks like player decisions still matter as much or even more than the build.

As for testing out a build we do have two possible DMs as well a map of Minas Tirith. Psymple has already put her character creation rules up... Dead_Jester is working on his though has said allowing Gnorman's E6 classes as well his revision of the core races. The link to that thread to test it out is in my signature.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Well looks like player decisions still matter as much or even more than the build.

As for testing out a build we do have two possible DMs as well a map of Minas Tirith. Psymple has already put her character creation rules up... Dead_Jester is working on his though has said allowing Gnorman's E6 classes as well his revision of the core races. The link to that thread to test it out is in my signature.

I posted. I admit to being wary of the Tier Gestalt (I'm of the mind that, barring cheese, wizards aren't ahead of warblades enough to warrant the warblade getting gestalt levels that the wizard doesn't), and I need to know how LA is going to be handled to know what I'm going to play, but there are a couple concepts I'll probably never get to make meaningful in my campaign on account of my being the DM and thus never expecting to build a character that lasts long enough for one fight (since, barring fiat, my players will try to kill it until they succeed).

[TurtleKing]

Well that is Psymple's character creation rules. Also Psymple is a fairly new DM so it probably learning how they might relate in terms of potential power. When applying this to a tower defense type deal which is based on encounters rather than days. That is if going with each wave as an encounter though can adjust as wanted. If a wave = encounter than a ability/day such as spellcasting or another could be lacking. Meaning even though have so many spells it is possible to run out so spellcasters an other like them could be weaker in fact. Though to turn this around a caster could grab all reserve feats they qualify for to help extend their longevity.

So now that have introduced a testing ground I wonder for some of those builds how long do you think it could last before reduced to just normal attacks? Basically how long before it burns though all of its class features? For those that can recover their abilities or able to not "burn out" how would they fare?

[Cieyrin]

Kukri Crit Fisher

Much as it is against the general way of things here, I don't pounce is as necessary in E6. I think you could get away with keeping Sudden Leap and go full Warblade to pick up Improved Uncanny Dodge to become extra resistant against sneak attacks, which isn't a bad thing at all.

Plus, I generally see full initiators get to pick up a single 4th level maneuver for going straight Martial Adept, so there's that to consider.

[balistafreak]

Much as it is against the general way of things here, I don't pounce is as necessary in E6.

However, as a crit-fishing build, it's important that he get those full-attacks off to do what his build is designed around: fish for crits by rolling lots and lots of attacks.

Marthinwurer, I see that you've said "allows the taking of the second stance at Warblade5". You could just pick the stance up with Martial Stance, can't you? I mean, I'm not turning down a free lunch when its offered, but if you want to make the build "more legal", for what that's worth, that's an option.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Well that is Psymple's character creation rules. Also Psymple is a fairly new DM so it probably learning how they might relate in terms of potential power. When applying this to a tower defense type deal which is based on encounters rather than days. That is if going with each wave as an encounter though can adjust as wanted. If a wave = encounter than a ability/day such as spellcasting or another could be lacking. Meaning even though have so many spells it is possible to run out so spellcasters an other like them could be weaker in fact. Though to turn this around a caster could grab all reserve feats they qualify for to help extend their longevity.

If you can refresh abilities after each wave, spellcasters are less lacking than classes whose abilities naturally refresh every encounter (such as the warblade and factotum), and the same could be said of the barbarian, paladin, hexblade, etc.

What really harms spellcasters, however, is that spells that scale per level rarely make their cap (unless you have a deep and narrow focus, such as Bloodline of Fire, Fiery Burst, and Arcane Thesis (fireball) to reach the 10d6 cap), and the spells that are straight encounter-enders simply don't exist in large quantities in E6 (I mean, color spray, glitterdust, sleep and the like are still around, and stay somewhat relevant due to the fact that the HD cap doesn't render them completely obsolete in a game that doesn't scale far past 6th level, but you don't actually hit on the legitimate save or dies, or polymorph, etc).


So now that have introduced a testing ground I wonder for some of those builds how long do you think it could last before reduced to just normal attacks? Basically how long before it burns though all of its class features? For those that can recover their abilities or able to not "burn out" how would they fare?

If they don't refresh after every wave, then the martial adepts and classes without fixed per-day abilities are going to soar, which makes gestalting Warblades even more cruel, but I can't complain, I guess.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Marthinwurer, I see that you've said "allows the taking of the second stance at Warblade5". You could just pick the stance up with Martial Stance, can't you? I mean, I'm not turning down a free lunch when its offered, but if you want to make the build "more legal", for what that's worth, that's an option.

Alternatively, you can take two levels of anything that isn't Warblade first (like, say, Barbarian 1/Fighter 1), grab the second stance at Warblade 4 (Initiator Level 5), and then take Martial Study (the maneuver you missed) in its place. You lose one stance (you have the same number of maneuvers), which would have been a first-level stance, but gain the class features of whatever class you traded that last level of Warblade for.

[Marthinwurer]

Much as it is against the general way of things here, I don't pounce is as necessary in E6. I think you could get away with keeping Sudden Leap and go full Warblade to pick up Improved Uncanny Dodge to become extra resistant against sneak attacks, which isn't a bad thing at all.

Plus, I generally see full initiators get to pick up a single 4th level maneuver for going straight Martial Adept, so there's that to consider.

For the build, the reasons for pounce are to get off the maximum number of attacks that critical as possible. The sheer randomness of Sudden Leap, and the fact that it takes up your swift action, which denys you the ability to use your counters, are both big factors in my choosing the way of pounce. It also goes well flavor wise, being a pouncing tiger claw warrior.



Marthinwurer, I see that you've said "allows the taking of the second stance at Warblade5". You could just pick the stance up with Martial Stance, can't you? I mean, I'm not turning down a free lunch when its offered, but if you want to make the build "more legal", for what that's worth, that's an option.

Alternatively, you can take two levels of anything that isn't Warblade first (like, say, Barbarian 1/Fighter 1), grab the second stance at Warblade 4 (Initiator Level 5), and then take Martial Study (the maneuver you missed) in its place. You lose one stance (you have the same number of maneuvers), which would have been a first-level stance, but gain the class features of whatever class you traded that last level of Warblade for.

The reason that I decided to go with the stance at 5 was that most people say that doing just that was one of things in ToB that need to be fixed. Now, if I was going to stick to the book, I would probably use Lonely's idea of the fighter level in there, so I could trade out Wolf Fang Strike at WB 4 to get IHS and still have the same feats.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Now, for some (poor) builds of my own, all desert-themed for some reason:

Parashurama (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=373653) is a Human Barbarian 4/Warblade 1/Fighter 1 (replace Fighter with something useful if continuing past 6th level with feats), extended to the first two feats beyond 6th level for those interested. The name is derived from the sixth incarnation of Vishnu, who represents an angry man in his youth. "Parashu", by the by, means "axe".

Point buy used was 10 points Str (16), 10 points Dex (16), 10 points Con (16), 2 points Wis (10), for 32 total. The fourth-level attribute point went into Dex.

Akalsimar (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=374801) is a Thri-Kreen that has assimilated (or is, at least, trying to assimilate) into human living. He covers himself in cloth bandages from head to toe and folds his arms behind his back (where they are completely obscured by his cloak of resistance +1, so to the untrained eye he looks like an extraordinarily tall human mummy. He is, however, a skilled artist of many blades, and his alacritous fighting style is unmatched in the desert sands.

Point buy used was 6 points Dex (14), 6 points Con (14), 6 points Int (14), with the racial bonuses and penalties of +2 Str, +4 Dex, -2 Int, +2 Wis, -4 Cha, for a total of 18. Fourth-level point went into Int.

This build assumes that racial Hit Dice counts towards the 6-level cap; otherwise, add two levels of Warblade to the end, and feel like you're cheating just a little bit, because you totally are.

I also created about 20 characters for a 32-man fighting tournament that is going to be held in-game, but most of them incorporate 40-point buy (and two of them have LA that isn't bought off or traded away in point buy), so they're not entirely legitimate... Though I should scale them back. Give me a bit to scale back the point buy to 32 (and adjust accordingly for level adjustment) and I'll post them.

EDIT: The tournament-goers (in alphabetical order, by name):
Aberrand de Barbarossa (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=374801), Human Rogue 3 (rolled stats; this one's from another campaign)
Brother Leopold (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=373375), Human Inquisitor 4 (PB Str 11/Dex 17/Con 14/Int 10/Wis 14/Cha 10, 32 total, attribute into Dex)
Brother Samson (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=373436), Human Paladin 2/Crusader 1 (PB Str 18/Dex 8/Con 14/Int 8/Wis 8/Cha 16, 32 total)
Brynn Alderat (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=373254), Half-Elf Wildshape Ranger 5 (PB Str 9/Dex 10/Con 14/Int 14/Wis 17/Cha 12, 32 total, attribute into Wis, using wolf physical statistics)
Cerridwen (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=373116), Half-Fey (+2) Grey Elf Factotum 4 (this is one of the ones I fudged the PB on; she's got PB Str 8/Dex 16/Con 10/Int 17/Wis 8/Cha 16, 37 total, attribute into Int. If you wanted to build her legitimately, which is to say with 18 Point Buy, I'd go Int 17, Con 10, Dex 11 for 18 points total. Oh, and she needs flaws attached to her feats, but they're things characteristic of a hyperactive fey, so inattentive and something else along those lines)
Charles Malkin (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=373242), Human Knight 2 (PB Str 18/Dex 10/Con 16/Int 8/Wis 8/Cha 12)
Damion Alighier (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=373134), Human Warlock 6 (another one I fudged; I would like for him to have some meaningful role later on, and it's hard to have a BBEG follow the same Point Buy rules sometimes, especially when I used a favorable rolling method for the PCs that averages out to higher PB. The STR and INT are mainly for flavor anyway)
Gwydion (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=373163), Half-Fey (+2)/Wood Elf Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 4 (32 PB, 15 Str, 14 Dex, 16 Con, 10 Int, 8 Wis, 14 Cha, plus racial adjustments of +2 Str, +4 Dex, -4 Con, -2 Int, +2 Wis, +4 Cha; technically fudged due to the LA, but whatever, he's not moving past 4 any time soon anyway)
Ixen di Welun (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=373454), Half-Elf Dragonfire Adept 3 (32 PB, 10 Str, 14 Dex, 18 Con, 10 Int, 8 Wis, 14 Cha).
Karen Revenar (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=373259), Human Paladin of Freedom 2 (OK, so I use 40 PB for story-relevant NPCs and recurring characters of all stripes. So sue me!)
Kenneth Devereaux (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=373088), Human Marshal 2/Warblade 2 (I may yet rebuild him to Warblade 4, but I haven't decided; yep, this one's a recurring figure too)
Langdon the Steadfast (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=373265), Human Unarmed Swordsage 3 (32 PB, 8 Str, 16 Dex, 14 Con, 8 Int, 18 Wis, 8 Cha)
Nilfar Hillkiller (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=373248), Dwarf Wizard 3 (32 PB, 8 Str, 16 Dex, 14 Con, 18 Int, 8 Wis, 8 Cha, plus racial adjustments of +2 Con, -2 Cha)
Pommel (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=373237), Warforged Fighter 2 (32 PB, 16 Str, 14 Dex, 16 Con, 14 Int, 8 Wis, 8 Cha, plus racial adjustments of +2 Con, -2 Cha)
Sinara (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=373418), Elf Rogue 5/Assassin 1 (32 PB, 10 Str, 18 Dex, 12 Con, 14 Int, 8 Wis, 12 Cha, before racial adjustments of -2 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Con, +2 Int)
Burnaby J. Rockefeller III (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=363575), Wood Elf Barbarian 1 (32 PB, 18 Str, 14 Dex, 16 Con, 8 Int, 8 Wis, 8 Cha before racial adjustments of +2 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Con, -2 Int, and the Pathetic Wisdom flaw)
Topher Undal (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=373181), Human Ranger 2 (more fudged numbers, story NPC and level 2, don't want him to be completely useless in a fight)
Turmalkin Boddywick (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=373218), Gnome Artificer 6 (40 PB, more story goodness; before the racial adjustments of -2 Str, +2 Con and the Venerable adjustments of -6 Str, -6 Dex, -6 Con, +3 Int, +3 Wis, +3 Cha, his point buy was 10 Str, 12 Dex, 10 Con, 18 Int, 8 Wis, 18 Cha)

Feel free to use any of the sheets represented here as if they were your own. Consider them a stock supply of characters for your E6 campaign. I can give you a backstory or description of their general personality if you'd like; I just didn't bother to write it down for anyone that wasn't used for another campaign before. :smallsmile:

[Marthinwurer]

Skills are up for my Crit fisher. What should I work on now? Tank or Mailman?

[Cieyrin]

Is Akalsimar Psionic, as if he's not, there's a LA +1 variant that can get you up to 25 point buy. Having some actual Strength to go with the scimitar flurry of death he has going would be tasty.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Is Akalsimar Psionic, as if he's not, there's a LA +1 variant that can get you up to 25 point buy. Having some actual Strength to go with the scimitar flurry of death he has going would be tasty.

He is not.

I saw the Monster Manual II version, but it was so horribly presented that I couldn't tell up from down--am I to understand that the only difference is they strip the naturally psionic trait away and reduce the LA by 1?

EDIT: Changed Akalsimar's Point Buy to the following:

Str 14 (+2 racial)
Dex 14 (+4 racial)
Con 14
Int 14 (-2 racial)
Wis 9 (+2 racial)
Cha 8 (-4 racial)

Fourth-level attribute goes into Int.

[Cieyrin]

He is not.

I saw the Monster Manual II version, but it was so horribly presented that I couldn't tell up from down--am I to understand that the only difference is they strip the naturally psionic trait away and reduce the LA by 1?

Well there's your issue, you're using the 3.0 stats, look at the XPH for psionic thri-kreen and Shining South has the psionicless LA +1 thri-kreen, which is basically removing the naturally psionic and psi-like abilities and leaving the rest for that reduction.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Well there's your issue, you're using the 3.0 stats, look at the XPH for psionic thri-kreen and Shining South has the psionicless LA +1 thri-kreen, which is basically removing the naturally psionic and psi-like abilities and leaving the rest for that reduction.

Actually, I used the Expanded Psionics Handbook version, which is LA+2, but didn't actually add the Psionics stuff, because I'm a lazy sonofagish and I don't use psionics anyway. I didn't even bother with the Monster Manual II version, because it was so confusing.

I'll look at the Shining South version and make any changes between the two (that aren't pertaining to Psionics, because I never added those anyway).

EDIT: So apparently that's what they do in Shining South as well. Keeping the new Point Buy, then. :smalltongue:

I shuffled the feats around so that Combat Reflexes takes higher priority than Weapon Finesse, since the difference is now +1 to hit (and Dex is actually lower in Whirling Frenzy).

[TurtleKing]

I have noticed something and going to bring up a fairly old topic in regard to this thread. I have read that hard to increase your health yet am making a E6 character and even taking a few particular feats could gain +20 hp not including other methods. I am talking about feat chains in particular psionic ones such as Psionic Body. For every psionic feat gain +2 hp so even if just take Expanded Knowledge as many times as wanted then following up with Psionic Talent after that for all the rest of the feats taken could result in alot. Incarnum has a similar method albeit a bit less since fewer incarnum feats. If all an level 6 with 20 epic feats took was Psionic Body and 22 Psionic Talent feats would have +46 hp and +23 pp.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Loading up on draconic feats is a good way for sorcerers and dragonfire adepts to do this as well.

[Cieyrin]

I have noticed something and going to bring up a fairly old topic in regard to this thread. I have read that hard to increase your health yet am making a E6 character and even taking a few particular feats could gain +20 hp not including other methods. I am talking about feat chains in particular psionic ones such as Psionic Body. For every psionic feat gain +2 hp so even if just take Expanded Knowledge as many times as wanted then following up with Psionic Talent after that for all the rest of the feats taken could result in alot. Incarnum has a similar method albeit a bit less since fewer incarnum feats. If all an level 6 with 20 epic feats took was Psionic Body and 22 Psionic Talent feats would have +46 hp and +23 pp.

You'd have much more PP than that, since Psionic Talent increases the PP gained each time you take it, so you'd actually have +275 PP. Also sounds rather boring, as I'd rather expend some of those on other psionic feats, like Expanded Knowledge to expand your repertoire, while also boosting your HP still.

[TurtleKing]

Psionic Talent is actually +2 PP the first time with +1 pp each time taken after that. And yes I know about the other feats could take.

[Tyndmyr]

Well looks like player decisions still matter as much or even more than the build.

IMO, this is the case in any version of D&D. The most optimized of chars can still be played stupidly.

I'm totally signing up for tower defense.


I also agree that pounce is less mandatory in E6. It's still nice, mind you...but with only one iterative and easily accessible maneuvers via feats, I see it skipped often in effective chars.

[Cieyrin]

Psionic Talent is actually +2 PP the first time with +1 pp each time taken after that. And yes I know about the other feats could take.


Each time you take the feat after the first time, the number of power points you gain increases by 1.

Are you sure? I took the above line to mean you got increasing returns for your investment, keeping it relevant for higher level powers so, if you invest in it, you can manifest more than 1st level powers.

[Tyndmyr]

Are you sure? I took the above line to mean you got increasing returns for your investment, keeping it relevant for higher level powers so, if you invest in it, you can manifest more than 1st level powers.

This is correct. Taking it 23 times would be a fairly ludicrous number of power points. In fact, I would submit that the extra offensive capability gained from this would vastly outlast the extra hitpoints gained in terms of endurance.

By strict RAW, a dragonwrought kobold could repeatedly take Epic Toughness repeatedly for +30 hp each time...but in practice, GL getting your GM to permit epic feats in E6. It's not a viable option for most folks.

[Cieyrin]

This is correct. Taking it 23 times would be a fairly ludicrous number of power points. In fact, I would submit that the extra offensive capability gained from this would vastly outlast the extra hitpoints gained in terms of endurance.

Indeed, though you could have your cake and eat it, too, via investing in Vigor, though you probably want to Extend or see if you can use the 3.0 Persist. :smallwink:

[TurtleKing]

Oh so instead of when taking the feat gain +2 pp, +1 pp, +1 pp, etc. It is +2, +3, +4, +5....now even more tempting. I building an Duergar Aspiriant Warden using Gnorman's race and class so have a high health/high AC living wall of a sort for defending Minas Tirith in the my TD thread. As such have a ACof 30 from just Dex, Armor, and shield. The Warden Apiriant gets a shield version of the mindblade that is also animated and eventually functions as a tower shield. Because of that eventually applies to flat-footed and touch AC. So even the Touch AC would be at least 20. Though is one way to take my character down is by targeting my reflex except for when can use shield as cover.

[Zonugal]

So I am in the process of designing an E6 Superhero-themed campaign for a group and one of the players asked me to assist them in building a Tony Stark/Iron Man type character.

And man.... Even with the restriction of no spells above 4th level & CL above 6, artificers can get pretty crazy taking stuff off here. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=12661)

Equipment
Masterwork, Mithral, Glamered +2 Full Plate: $4063
+10 Armor Bonus; Max Dex +3; -2 ACP; 20 ft.; 25 lbs.

Suit Upgrades
Helmet (Ranged attacks/Mental Improvement)
Boots (Movement): Boots of Fly (Command Word; CL 5; 4,615 gp)
Gauntlets (Destructive Power)
Gloves (Quickness)
Belt (Physical Improvement): Divine Power (Continuous; CL 5; 21,265 gp)
Bracers (Combat)
Vestment (Class Ability Improvement)
Scarab (Protection/Discernment): Resist Energy (Command Word; CL 1; 320 gp)
Eye Lenses (Vision): Arcane Sight (Continuous; CL 1; 710 gp)

Gadgets
Sensory Enhancer: Clairvoyance/Clairaudience (Command Word; CL 1; 320 gp)
Mobile Sensory Agent: Arcane Eye (Command Word; CL 3; 1,915 gp)
Healing Array: Cure Moderate Wounds (Command Word; CL 1; 320 gp)
Magic Disruptor: Dispel Magic (Command Word; CL 1; 320 gp)
Cloaking Device: Invisibility (Command Word; CL 1; 320 gp)
Portal Destabilizer: Knock (Command Word; CL 1; 320 gp)
Illusion Producer: Minor Image (Command Word; CL 1; 320 gp)
Omega-Shield: Globe of Invulnerability, Lesser (Command Word; CL 3; 1,915 gp)
Alpha-Shield: Resilient Sphere (Command Word; CL 3; 1,915 gp)
Stone-Shifting Oscillator: Stone Shape (Command Word; CL 3; 1,915 gp)
The Calculation Collaborator: Divination (Command Word; CL 5; 4,615 gp)

Standard Crafting Costs
Single-Use Spell Completion
0: .5x1x25 gp = 13 gp x .25 = 10 gp
1: 1x1x25 gp = 25 gp x .25 = 19 gp
2: 2x3x25 gp = 150 gp x .25 = 113 gp
3: 3x5x25 gp = 375 gp x .25 = 283 gp
Single-Use Use Activated
0: .5x1x50 gp = 25 gp x .25 = 19 gp x .25 = 15 gp
1: 1x1x50 gp = 50 gp x .25 = 37.5 gp x .25 = 29 gp
2: 2x3x50 gp = 300 gp x .25 = 225 gp x .25 = 169 gp
3: 3x5x50 gp = 750 gp x .25 = 563 gp x .25 = 423 gp
50 charges, Spell-Trigger
0: .5x1x750 gp = 375 gp x.25 = 282 gp x .25 = 212 gp
1: 1x1x750 gp = 750 gp x .25 = 563 gp x .25 = 423 gp
2: 2x3x750 gp = 4500 gp x .25 = 3375 gp x .25 = 2531 gp
3: 3x5x750 gp = 11250 gp x .25 = 8438 gp x .25 = 6329 gp
Command Word Item
0: .5x1x1800 gp = 900 gp x .25 = 675 gp x .25 = 507 gp
1: 1x1x1800 gp = 1800 gp x .25 = 1350 gp x .25 = 1013 gp
2: 2x3x1800 gp = 10800 gp x .25 = 8100 gp x .25 = 6075 gp
3: 3x5x1800 gp = 27000 gp x .25 = 20250 gp x .25 = 14648 gp

That is what I have right now but I think this character will be a power-house for the player.

Which should come in handy as I throw really big challenges at them. But still, thought I'd show off this little insight.

[Tytalus]

I probably should post some of the builds that I said that I would, shouldn't I? Without any further ado:

Kukri Crit Fisher


I like it. It's quite close to an E6 build I made, which replaces one warblade level (that doesn't do much, anyway) with a single level of the sneak attack thug fighter variant [UA]. This provides sneak attack, qualifies you for Staggering Strike [CAdv] (very nice) and results in better saves. The downsides are: one fewer maneuver known and one less bonus feat - but those are plentiful in E6 anyway. This also solves your stance aquisition problem in a RAW way.

For a lower OP version, you can just drop the lightning mace/kukri cheese - keen kukris tend to do well enough for actual play, IME.

[Lonely Tylenol]

For a lower OP version, you can just drop the lightning mace/kukri cheese - keen kukris tend to do well enough for actual play, IME.

Not that I want to bring this up again (I REALLY don't), but Keen is +3.

Anyway, Sneak Attack fighter got me to thinking about somebody in my own game:

I have a player who is currently Swashbuckler III (going into Rogue next level for Daring Outlaw), with a Two-Weapon Fighting focus. Theoretically, it is possible for him to go Sneak Attack Fighter III to meet the prerequisite of Daring Outlaw (Sneak Attack "as Rogue" means +2d6 at third), which means that Swashbuckler levels (of which there are three) will stack with Rogue levels (of which there are zero) for the purposes of determining Sneak Attack dice.

My question is:
Would this Sneak Attack be at +4d6 (0 + 3 = 3 effective Rogue levels, which equals Sneak Attack +2d6 as per a third-level Rogue, plus the +2d6 Sneak Attack of Sneak Attack Fighter as an analogue for a third-level Rogue) or +3d6 (combining Sneak Attack Fighter and Swashbuckler levels for the purpose of determining Sneak Attack dice, since Sneak Attack Fighter gives Sneak Attack "as Rogue")?

If the former, why would anybody play a combat-focused Rogue in E6? (An Int-based Swashbuckler can dump Str and still get good damage, Swash III/Fighter III gets BAB +6 and a second iterative attack, plus Improved Two-Weapon Fighting where necessary, plus an extra Sneak Attack dice, meaning that the only trade-off is 4 + Int skills per level, which is mitigated by a reasonable boost to the importance of Int, and a narrower skill selection.)

I'm the DM, so assume that I am allowing this trick (I'd be the one to tell him about it, actually), but I do have one big concern regarding it: I have a player in my group that has an almost single-minded focus on Sneak Attack (his build is Spellthief I/Rogue III/Swordsage I/Assassin I), but he's getting terrible BAB as a result (+2 at level 6), weaker Hit Dice, and a mess of features that don't progress at all. Would Daring Outlaw +4d6 be completely replacing him in terms of usefulness? If so, what's the best fix? (I'm likely making the move to fractional BAB, because it's absurd for the martial-focused Rogue to have a smaller BAB than the caster.) I'm thinking either keeping the Sneak Attack bonus to +3 for the Sneak Attack Swashbuckler, allowing the Sneak Attack generic feat (but with the Improved Sneak Attack feat requirement; make him work for it), or both.

He has a heavy skill focus as well (making use of those Rogue levels for stealth), so it's not necessarily an option to meld them both into Swash Fighter or something (nor would I want to). He'll still get maneuvers as an IL 3 Swordsage at level 5, so there's that.

What should I do?

[Cieyrin]

Not that I want to bring this up again (I REALLY don't), but Keen is +3.

:smallconfused:
This ability doubles the threat range of a weapon. Only piercing or slashing weapons can be keen. (If you roll this property randomly for an inappropriate weapon, reroll.) This benefit doesn’t stack with any other effect that expands the threat range of a weapon (such as the keen edge spell or the Improved Critical feat).

Moderate transmutation; CL 10th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, keen edge; Price +1 bonus.

Looks like +1 to me.


Anyway, Sneak Attack fighter got me to thinking about somebody in my own game:

I have a player who is currently Swashbuckler III (going into Rogue next level for Daring Outlaw), with a Two-Weapon Fighting focus. Theoretically, it is possible for him to go Sneak Attack Fighter III to meet the prerequisite of Daring Outlaw (Sneak Attack "as Rogue" means +2d6 at third), which means that Swashbuckler levels (of which there are three) will stack with Rogue levels (of which there are zero) for the purposes of determining Sneak Attack dice.

My question is:
Would this Sneak Attack be at +4d6 (0 + 3 = 3 effective Rogue levels, which equals Sneak Attack +2d6 as per a third-level Rogue, plus the +2d6 Sneak Attack of Sneak Attack Fighter as an analogue for a third-level Rogue) or +3d6 (combining Sneak Attack Fighter and Swashbuckler levels for the purpose of determining Sneak Attack dice, since Sneak Attack Fighter gives Sneak Attack "as Rogue")?

It would be the former, since he has the 3 effective levels of Rogue from Swash and the progression from Sneak Attack Fighter. Sneak Attack Fighter isn't a Rogue, so it isn't included in Daring Outlaw's calculations.


If the former, why would anybody play a combat-focused Rogue in E6? (An Int-based Swashbuckler can dump Str and still get good damage, Swash III/Fighter III gets BAB +6 and a second iterative attack, plus Improved Two-Weapon Fighting where necessary, plus an extra Sneak Attack dice, meaning that the only trade-off is 4 + Int skills per level, which is mitigated by a reasonable boost to the importance of Int, and a narrower skill selection.)

The sheer difference in skill points, Evasion, Uncanny Dodge and access to the Capstone Rogue feat, that gives you a Rogue Special Ability, some of which are rather nice, plus some of the ACFs. The Swashbuckler 3/SA Fighter 3 has 30 + 6xInt bonus + misc. bonuses, the Rogue 6 has 72 + 6xInt + misc. bonuses, which can be applied to Hide and Move Silently, Bluff, UMD & Sense Motive, none of which the Martial Daring Outlaw has on their class list. The pure rogue doesn't have the BAB or Sneak Attack (+6 & 4d6 SA vs. +4 & 3d6 SA) but the Rogue can make up for it through sheer trickery, things like being unfindable (Darkstalker!) and via Skill Tricks, many of which the MDO doesn't have the points for. So, there are good reasons to pursue Rogue if your looking for something beyond whose better at shanking kidneys.


I'm the DM, so assume that I am allowing this trick (I'd be the one to tell him about it, actually), but I do have one big concern regarding it: I have a player in my group that has an almost single-minded focus on Sneak Attack (his build is Spellthief I/Rogue III/Swordsage I/Assassin I), but he's getting terrible BAB as a result (+2 at level 6), weaker Hit Dice, and a mess of features that don't progress at all. Would Daring Outlaw +4d6 be completely replacing him in terms of usefulness? If so, what's the best fix? (I'm likely making the move to fractional BAB, because it's absurd for the martial-focused Rogue to have a smaller BAB than the caster.) I'm thinking either keeping the Sneak Attack bonus to +3 for the Sneak Attack Swashbuckler, allowing the Sneak Attack generic feat (but with the Improved Sneak Attack feat requirement; make him work for it), or both.

He has a heavy skill focus as well (making use of those Rogue levels for stealth), so it's not necessarily an option to meld them both into Swash Fighter or something (nor would I want to). He'll still get maneuvers as an IL 3 Swordsage at level 5, so there's that.

What should I do?

It really depends on what maneuvers the Arcane Adept Assassin has and what spells he selected, as he still has the same +4d6 sneak attack, with which he can steal 1st level spells to keep casting Assassin spells.

I would approve of fractional BAB, though it sounds like he brought his poor BAB down upon himself by heavily multiclassing, though his saves are pretty nice for it (Base Fort +1, Ref +7, Will +4). Depending on the choices he made in the Sublime Way and magic, he should be able to keep up just fine with the MDO, though he probably wants to invest in martial scripts, scrolls and wands to really flex his versatility, which should be rather extensive, given he use wands with spells from the assassin and sor/wiz list of more than half the schools. Emerald Razor and Wraithstrike will go a long way to making up the difference.

[Tyndmyr]

Fractional BaB, as a generally good rule anyhow, is definitely something I support for medium BaB classes with solid dipping. With E6, he probably can't end up TOO far behind everyone in BaB, but still, rogue and stuff aren't really broken, I see no reason to penalize them.

[Lonely Tylenol]

:smallconfused:

Looks like +1 to me.

You're right, I'm sorry. My bad.

It's just CL 10th.

Don't take my word for any weapons or weapon properties--I have been looking through literally every item property in every book as of late, so my mind's so jumbled by the overload that I've begun compartmentalizing everything into "on my list"/"not on my list" to make things easy.

(I've gotten about halfway through, by the way, and will try to finish in the next week or so.)


It would be the former, since he has the 3 effective levels of Rogue from Swash and the progression from Sneak Attack Fighter. Sneak Attack Fighter isn't a Rogue, so it isn't included in Daring Outlaw's calculations.

Yeah, that's what I thought.


The sheer difference in skill points, Evasion, Uncanny Dodge and access to the Capstone Rogue feat, that gives you a Rogue Special Ability, some of which are rather nice, plus some of the ACFs. The Swashbuckler 3/SA Fighter 3 has 30 + 6xInt bonus + misc. bonuses, the Rogue 6 has 72 + 6xInt + misc. bonuses, which can be applied to Hide and Move Silently, Bluff, UMD & Sense Motive, none of which the Martial Daring Outlaw has on their class list. The pure rogue doesn't have the BAB or Sneak Attack (+6 & 4d6 SA vs. +4 & 3d6 SA) but the Rogue can make up for it through sheer trickery, things like being unfindable (Darkstalker!) and via Skill Tricks, many of which the MDO doesn't have the points for. So, there are good reasons to pursue Rogue if your looking for something beyond whose better at shanking kidneys.

The Thug variant (which can be combined with Sneak Attack Fighter, as explicitly written) bumps them up to 36 + (6 x Int) + misc., and adds Bluff, Gather Information, Knowledge (Local) and Sleight of Hand, and can place Int over Str, because it gets Int to damage and Weapon Finesse for free (which helps mitigate the skill point loss somewhat). But I guess that makes sense, although that set of benefits still refer almost exclusively to the non-combat side of things (which means that for someone who just wants to shank kidneys, Sneak Fighter/Outlaw is strictly better; at least, as iteratives and the like go).

If generic feats are allowed, though, there's nothing left but skills. :smalltongue:


It really depends on what maneuvers the Arcane Adept Assassin has and what spells he selected, as he still has the same +4d6 sneak attack, with which he can steal 1st level spells to keep casting Assassin spells.

His character, for story, is shadow-themed, so he's probably going to pick from the Shadow Hand maneuvers. I introduced him to Tome of Battle, so he's probably not that intimately aware of what works how, and is probably going to pick things that are a) shadow-themed, and b) look good at a cursory glance.

This is what I'm estimating:

Stance:
Island of Blades

Maneuvers:
Cloak of Deception
Shadow Jaunt
Flashing Sun*
Shadow Blade Technique
Clinging Shadow Strike
Sapphire Nightmare Blade**

*At my recommendation.

**At my recommendation, BUT... No ranks in Concentration thus far, so this is really iffy. It's also why I'm shying away from the save boosters. Unless he puts ranks into Concentration, probably better if this is Emerald Razor.

Spells are... In all likelihood going to be True Strike and Disguise Self. He is planning on doing side missions (solo assassin hits), and True Strike is likely going to be his way of guaranteeing an instant kill with Death Attack (or at least, not a miss). Disguise Self is likely going to be the "cloak" of his "cloak-and-dagger" strategy, but he's planning on hiding the fact that he's an assassin from the rest of the party (he wants to join an order of assassins that I designed for the game world, for which the cardinal rule is: if anybody, even an another assassin, finds out about your membership in the order, you are considered compromised, and a hit is placed on you).

I honestly don't know what he's going to pick, though; I can give suggestions, but the decision is his.

[Cieyrin]

You'll need a Diamond Mind maneuver before you pick up Emerald Razor, which means if he wants it, he'll want to pick up ranks of Concentration or Stance of Clarity to serve as the prereq, since stances can meet those requirements as well.

There's also spells beyond core that Assassin's can draw from, I like Critical Strike for being a nice quick boost.

[Lonely Tylenol]

You'll need a Diamond Mind maneuver before you pick up Emerald Razor, which means if he wants it, he'll want to pick up ranks of Concentration or Stance of Clarity to serve as the prereq, since stances can meet those requirements as well.

This is true.

Hmm... I'll give a look, and ask what maneuvers he had in mind.


There's also spells beyond core that Assassin's can draw from, I like Critical Strike for being a nice quick boost.

I like Critical Strike as well; one of my favorites, personally, and one of the other players in my campaign (a melee Bard) is making great use of it.

I just suspect he's going to take True Strike and Disguise Self.

EDIT: I'll ask him about the spells, too.

[Black_Zawisza]

So I am in the process of designing an E6 Superhero-themed campaign for a group and one of the players asked me to assist them in building a Tony Stark/Iron Man type character.

And man.... Even with the restriction of no spells above 4th level & CL above 6, artificers can get pretty crazy taking stuff off here. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=12661)

Equipment
Masterwork, Mithral, Glamered +2 Full Plate: $4063
+10 Armor Bonus; Max Dex +3; -2 ACP; 20 ft.; 25 lbs.

Suit Upgrades
Helmet (Ranged attacks/Mental Improvement)
Boots (Movement): Boots of Fly (Command Word; CL 5; 4,615 gp)
Gauntlets (Destructive Power)
Gloves (Quickness)
Belt (Physical Improvement): Divine Power (Continuous; CL 5; 21,265 gp)
Bracers (Combat)
Vestment (Class Ability Improvement)
Scarab (Protection/Discernment): Resist Energy (Command Word; CL 1; 320 gp)
Eye Lenses (Vision): Arcane Sight (Continuous; CL 1; 710 gp)

Gadgets
Sensory Enhancer: Clairvoyance/Clairaudience (Command Word; CL 1; 320 gp)
Mobile Sensory Agent: Arcane Eye (Command Word; CL 3; 1,915 gp)
Healing Array: Cure Moderate Wounds (Command Word; CL 1; 320 gp)
Magic Disruptor: Dispel Magic (Command Word; CL 1; 320 gp)
Cloaking Device: Invisibility (Command Word; CL 1; 320 gp)
Portal Destabilizer: Knock (Command Word; CL 1; 320 gp)
Illusion Producer: Minor Image (Command Word; CL 1; 320 gp)
Omega-Shield: Globe of Invulnerability, Lesser (Command Word; CL 3; 1,915 gp)
Alpha-Shield: Resilient Sphere (Command Word; CL 3; 1,915 gp)
Stone-Shifting Oscillator: Stone Shape (Command Word; CL 3; 1,915 gp)
The Calculation Collaborator: Divination (Command Word; CL 5; 4,615 gp)

Standard Crafting Costs
Single-Use Spell Completion
0: .5x1x25 gp = 13 gp x .25 = 10 gp
1: 1x1x25 gp = 25 gp x .25 = 19 gp
2: 2x3x25 gp = 150 gp x .25 = 113 gp
3: 3x5x25 gp = 375 gp x .25 = 283 gp
Single-Use Use Activated
0: .5x1x50 gp = 25 gp x .25 = 19 gp x .25 = 15 gp
1: 1x1x50 gp = 50 gp x .25 = 37.5 gp x .25 = 29 gp
2: 2x3x50 gp = 300 gp x .25 = 225 gp x .25 = 169 gp
3: 3x5x50 gp = 750 gp x .25 = 563 gp x .25 = 423 gp
50 charges, Spell-Trigger
0: .5x1x750 gp = 375 gp x.25 = 282 gp x .25 = 212 gp
1: 1x1x750 gp = 750 gp x .25 = 563 gp x .25 = 423 gp
2: 2x3x750 gp = 4500 gp x .25 = 3375 gp x .25 = 2531 gp
3: 3x5x750 gp = 11250 gp x .25 = 8438 gp x .25 = 6329 gp
Command Word Item
0: .5x1x1800 gp = 900 gp x .25 = 675 gp x .25 = 507 gp
1: 1x1x1800 gp = 1800 gp x .25 = 1350 gp x .25 = 1013 gp
2: 2x3x1800 gp = 10800 gp x .25 = 8100 gp x .25 = 6075 gp
3: 3x5x1800 gp = 27000 gp x .25 = 20250 gp x .25 = 14648 gp

That is what I have right now but I think this character will be a power-house for the player.

Which should come in handy as I throw really big challenges at them. But still, thought I'd show off this little insight.
Could you mind explaining how you got those crafting cost calculations (specifically, the discounts)? I'd like to craft stuff that cheaply, but I don't think it's possible.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Could you mind explaining how you got those crafting cost calculations (specifically, the discounts)? I'd like to craft stuff that cheaply, but I don't think it's possible.

There's a feat Artificers can take (and get as a bonus feat) that reduces the cost of an item by 25%, that stacks with itself. I don't know how much that might have to do with it.

[Zonugal]

Could you mind explaining how you got those crafting cost calculations (specifically, the discounts)? I'd like to craft stuff that cheaply, but I don't think it's possible.

Sure!

Magical Artisan: 25% reduction
Extraordinary Artisan: 25% reduction
Restricting it to those with ranks in a skill: 10% reduction
Restricting it to those in a certain class: 30% reduction
Crafting it yourself: 50% reduction

[Lonely Tylenol]

So, I finished my list (https://docs.google.com/document/d/16JL4nEgTidWybhfLys8kwz7aEYNqAP8G1vlt0-KDtp0/edit).

There are probably some redundancies, but I think the list is a fairly accurate representation of how items might be limited in games with a hard limit on item creation (of 3rd/4th-level spells and 6th-8th caster level). If you would be so kind as to point them out for me, I'll try my best to eliminate them. :smallsmile:

I'm going to try my best to re-format this in table form (so that you can adjust the list per filters, so that it organizes it by caster level, or by book code/page number), at which point I'll make my own thread for it, but here's a handy reference, just in case.

EDIT: Actually, come to think of it, if nobody helps me revise the list, it'll actually be easier to sort out once I put it in table form.

Also, can anybody please point me in the direction of the book codes (ex. DMG, SpC, MoI, etc)?

[gorfnab]

I probably should post some of the builds that I said that I would, shouldn't I? Without any further ado:

Kukri Crit Fisher

Whirling Frenzy rage variant from UA would be awesome with this build. Also the feat Extra Rage (set to Whirling Frenzy) would be a fun addition.

One fun option for Psychic Warrior in E6 is to take the feat Psionic Body at first level. It gives you a nice +2 HP kicker every time you take a Psionic feat (kinda nice with multiple Psionic Talent and Expanded Knowledge).

On a side note, anyone have any ideas about using Savage Species progressions in E6? Ghaele and Trumpet Archon would be fairly powerful in E6 (definitely Tier 1s and slightly cheesy).

[Marthinwurer]

Whirling Frenzy rage variant from UA would be awesome with this build. Also the feat Extra Rage (set to Whirling Frenzy) would be a fun addition.

Looking at it, it would definitely be a great choice for the build. The extra attack for a crit fisher is just gold.

[Cieyrin]

So, I finished my list (https://docs.google.com/document/d/16JL4nEgTidWybhfLys8kwz7aEYNqAP8G1vlt0-KDtp0/edit).

There are probably some redundancies, but I think the list is a fairly accurate representation of how items might be limited in games with a hard limit on item creation (of 3rd/4th-level spells and 6th-8th caster level). If you would be so kind as to point them out for me, I'll try my best to eliminate them. :smallsmile:

I'm going to try my best to re-format this in table form (so that you can adjust the list per filters, so that it organizes it by caster level, or by book code/page number), at which point I'll make my own thread for it, but here's a handy reference, just in case.

EDIT: Actually, come to think of it, if nobody helps me revise the list, it'll actually be easier to sort out once I put it in table form.

Also, can anybody please point me in the direction of the book codes (ex. DMG, SpC, MoI, etc)?

I'll have a look later on at the new list, when my coffee has finally kicked in. For the book codes, if you scroll to the bottom of the upcoming link for the Product Key, those are the official book codes that I think most handbook writers use: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/feats

[Lonely Tylenol]

I'll have a look later on at the new list, when my coffee has finally kicked in. For the book codes, if you scroll to the bottom of the upcoming link for the Product Key, those are the official book codes that I think most handbook writers use: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/feats

OK, great. Most of my codes match up with that list, as it so happens; the only ones that don't, I believe, are Book of Exalted Deeds (BE vs. BoED) and Book of Vile Darkness (BV vs. BoVD). That's okay; I'll fix that soon.

By the way, if it helps any, the list is now in table form here on Giant in the Playground (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=235754), which allows you to sort automatically by book/page, item name, item price (though I haven't edited this to perfection yet; items with a value less than 1,000 gp show up below items with a value higher than 1,000), caster level requirement, and feat requirements (and spell requirements within that feat, though this is a less exact science).

Next, I'd like to sort items by item slot; this will likely mean sorting out items into "weapon enhancements", "weapons", "armor enhancements", "armor", and "everything else", and then going over the list with a fine-toothed come to make sense of "everything else".

The last thing I'd like to do with the list is to make a subset consisting only of levels 1-6 items, and a subset of only 7-8 items, for people that split along that line. But that's a low priority (and may even become a non-issue), since you can already sort by caster level.

Can anybody else think of a useful sorting method for me to use?

[Talya]

Hmm. Does E6 fix the balance between sorcerer and wizard at high levels? I mean, "Extra Spell" is a much more appealling feat when you get such a huge pile of feats and only have 3 spell levels available, and at this level, the difference in spells per day is much more significant.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Hmm. Does E6 fix the balance between sorcerer and wizard at high levels? I mean, "Extra Spell" is a much more appealling feat when you get such a huge pile of feats and only have 3 spell levels available, and at this level, the difference in spells per day is much more significant.

I happen to like Sorcerers and other spontaneous casters more than prepared casters at this level, because we're still at the level where mileage matters. (EDIT: It's worth noting that Warlock and Dragonfire Adept, the invocation-users, don't have any of those silly "per-day" restrictions on their abilities.)

I would say that 6th level does represent an effective "crossroads" point, where everyone sort of meets at the middle before splitting off. Melee has a larger body than casters, and that still matters (sorta). Mundane melee is unique here in that feat chains carry on indefinitely, but Hit Dice don't progress, so all those chains that require combat styles (like, say, Shock Trooper) or tons of feats (like, say, Chain Tripper lock) can still happen, and they're happening at a lower HD (meaning, they might actually happen before things just scale out of their relevant power level). ToB has a bunch of cool effects which, frankly, emulate low-level spells, and are encounter powers, and they never go out of style at this point. As for casters... Wizards and Sorcerers can still fly, be invisible, and make people fall down a number of different ways, but to do these things as a Wizard takes up most of your spell slots, and to do these things as a Sorcerer takes up most of your spells known (so they meet the same problem from different ends). Sorcerers can alleviate this by taking Extra Spell repeatedly, or better yet, the E6 version of the same feat (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/E6_%283.5e_Sourcebook%29/Rules#Spells) (Expanded Knowledge), but they're still limited in application (which I think is appropriate, because they can still fly, turn invisible, and make people fall down a number of different ways).

[Talya]

Edit: Silly. Didn't realize E6 had its own special feats.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Edit: Silly. Didn't realize E6 had its own special feats.

They're houseruled feats, but E6 is essentially a houserule itself, so it's [fairly] safe to assume that they come as part of the package.

That said, the Versatile Spellcaster trick will work if you ever play E6 with a DM that hates you; it's just more feat-intensive.

[Marthinwurer]

Does anyone have any examples of Capstone Feats from classes not in core?