Starcraft 2: 8 Medivac drop

[Silverraptor]

StarCraft 2 is a real time strategy game by Blizzard that was released on July 27th, 2010. This thread is for general discussion with no real focus within the game.

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Past Threads:
One (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142825)
Two (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=158508)
Three (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=165601)
Four (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176154)
Five (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=189933)
Six (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11112895)
Seven (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214818)

Sharing replays:

1) Save your replay in Battlenet. Give it a descriptive name.
2) Find replay on hard drive. Usually in My documents/starcraft2/user#/users#/replays/multiplayer
3) upload it to a file share site. http://www.sc2replayed.com/ is good, as is www.sc2rep.com , and so is others.
4) post link here.

Downloading replays:

1) click on link
2) download file
3) to launch, double click on replay file or drag replay file onto starcraft2 shortcut. sometimes need to log in, but plays immediately.



Names and Identifiers

North America
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742 (Sillose.383)
Acanous (Acanous.667)
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arguskos (TBCarguskos.456)
Aramil Liadon (Woodwings.652)
Artanis (Legacy.229)
Battleship789 (Catalyst.418)
BobVosh (BobVosh.644)
Cybren (Cybren.412)
Cynan Machae (Cynan.623)
DarkMemnarch (DarkMemnarch.356)
Darth Mario (DarthMario.672)
D Lord (DLord.884)
Drago (Drago.331)
Draken (Draken.523)
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Kirbot (Kirbot.617)
Kizara (StarMoon.676)
Kranden (Kranden.677)
Kris Strife (Kris.293)
Kumo (Kumo.399)
Kyeudo (Kyeudo.987)
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Mutant Sheep (Fourhand.480)
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Rigel Cyrosea (Rigel.753)
Sarom (mmsharpeye.912)
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Tavar (Tavar.666)
The Glyphstone (Glyphstone.667)
The Orange Zergling (Tacgnol.889)
TheFieryTower (TFT.294)
Thiyr (RianL.377)
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Warnix (WarNiX.589)
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Europe
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South East Asia
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aNooburak (Brian.622)
AslanCross (AslanJCross.148)
Sarom (request by PM)

[Silverraptor]

So, I'll start this thread off by posting the current skill level I have. BEHOLD MY TERRIBLENESS! (http://www.sctemple.com/replay/189651/)

(Oh wow, 75 apm. That's higher than I thought. Still, I suck.)

[DarkMemnarch]

So, I'll start this thread off by posting the current skill level I have. BEHOLD MY TERRIBLENESS! (http://www.sctemple.com/replay/189651/)

(Oh wow, 75 apm. That's higher than I thought. Still, I suck.)

I think that you need to get ling speed a bit sooner and make a macro hatch with a queen when you are doing ling muta/infestor.

Also your drone count was a tad low the entire game.

[BobVosh]

Can you update the first post to have my info for it? BobVosh.644

[Acanous]

Zerg seem to be the only race that have serious problems keeping drone count high. Probably because you lose one for every building.

All the same, why am I not on the NA list? I could have sworn I posted mine:
Acanous 667

[DarkMemnarch]

i just realized i am not on the NA list either

DarkMemnarch. 356

[Silverraptor]

I think that you need to get ling speed a bit sooner and make a macro hatch with a queen when you are doing ling muta/infestor.

Also your drone count was a tad low the entire game.

Yeah. I was going through that game thinking, "god why am I low on minerals?" That was then when I realized I needed more drones near then end. Still, I'm glad I held off the hellions okay without too much damage. In fact, he lost more in helions then I think I lost in lings and drones.

And I'll update the list now.

Updated!

[BobVosh]

Zerg seem to be the only race that have serious problems keeping drone count high. Probably because you lose one for every building.

All the same, why am I not on the NA list? I could have sworn I posted mine:
Acanous 667

Early game perhaps. Midgame on they can easily produce 12-20 drones at a time without any trouble. Even early game the keep up reasonably well with terran/toss on one less base.

[Kyeudo]

Zerg can produce drones faster than the other two races could hope to match, but they also have to trade warriors for workers, so they often can't make drones. Winning as zerg means exploiting the first while dodging the second. The better the zerg, the better they keep up that drone count.

[Thiyr]

A) I'm not on the NA list. this is to be rectified. Seeing as mine shows up in every post, there should be no excuse. And by no excuse I mean I barely remember there being a list. RianL.377

B) So I realize something. My average APM feels really low for some reason. I generally hit around 35-38ish, spiking during battles. This is clearly not my biggest problem, but I'm too prone to thinking while not doing.

C) Despite this, and despite realizing how bad I am at dealing with multiple things at once, I just had a super-fun PvT. He tries an early stim push, I hold it off. End up getting taking a really fast fourth and fifth while he takes a 3rd and kills my entire unattended army because i was distracted by banshees hitting me. He proceeded to have banshees and marauder drops freakin' everywhere. All over the place. I could not actually keep up with what I needed to do. So I just decided to attack the hell out of him. I got colossi to his ghosts and just proceeded to steam into his 3rd, kill his army, and steam over his second, and then went to clean up what was left of the hits i had been taking and frantically trying to deal with. between banshees at 3 or 4 bases and drops on 2 of them as well, frequently two or 3 getting hit at once, I was going nuts. So glad his big force was marine marauder ghost, 'cause chargelot colossus stalker just mopped it up, esp when he tried to split his army to take out the 6 or so colossi and just got his marines melted.


edit: so apparently my APM in retrospect was actually a lot better that game, averaging 50ish by the end. I'm sure part of that was me trying a lot harder on my worker production, as well as freaking out trying to deal with what felt like banshees everywhere. Eventually I kinda started trying to treat it like PvZ vs muta, just that the mutas can cloak. And otherwise, I was playing the zerg way. I was SO far behind in units lost and workers lost (like, I lost about 3 times as much on both for a lot of the game, I think), but I -still- came out surviving. Guess having 4-5 bases will do that for you.

[Silverraptor]

A) I'm not on the NA list. this is to be rectified. Seeing as mine shows up in every post, there should be no excuse. And by no excuse I mean I barely remember there being a list. RianL.377

B) So I realize something. My average APM feels really low for some reason. I generally hit around 35-38ish, spiking during battles. This is clearly not my biggest problem, but I'm too prone to thinking while not doing.

C) Despite this, and despite realizing how bad I am at dealing with multiple things at once, I just had a super-fun PvT. He tries an early stim push, I hold it off. End up getting taking a really fast fourth and fifth while he takes a 3rd and kills my entire unattended army because i was distracted by banshees hitting me. He proceeded to have banshees and marauder drops freakin' everywhere. All over the place. I could not actually keep up with what I needed to do. So I just decided to attack the hell out of him. I got colossi to his ghosts and just proceeded to steam into his 3rd, kill his army, and steam over his second, and then went to clean up what was left of the hits i had been taking and frantically trying to deal with. between banshees at 3 or 4 bases and drops on 2 of them as well, frequently two or 3 getting hit at once, I was going nuts. So glad his big force was marine marauder ghost, 'cause chargelot colossus stalker just mopped it up, esp when he tried to split his army to take out the 6 or so colossi and just got his marines melted.


edit: so apparently my APM in retrospect was actually a lot better that game, averaging 50ish by the end. I'm sure part of that was me trying a lot harder on my worker production, as well as freaking out trying to deal with what felt like banshees everywhere. Eventually I kinda started trying to treat it like PvZ vs muta, just that the mutas can cloak. And otherwise, I was playing the zerg way. I was SO far behind in units lost and workers lost (like, I lost about 3 times as much on both for a lot of the game, I think), but I -still- came out surviving. Guess having 4-5 bases will do that for you.

You should post the replay.:smallsmile:

[Kyeudo]

Might as well add me to the North American list. Kyeudo 987

[Thiyr]

You should post the replay.:smallsmile:

What's this? You want replays (http://www.sctemple.com/replay/190468/)? Why would I ever do tha---oh hey, a replay.

[DarkMemnarch]

What's this? You want replays (http://www.sctemple.com/replay/190468/)? Why would I ever do tha---oh hey, a replay.

you need to scout more

[Thiyr]

you need to scout more

And strangely, that was one of my better games for scouting, considering for most of the dangerous parts before things got really hectic for me I knew where his army was, and i was at least attempting to check expos. Should have checked his base once i saw the army, but that whole "giant blob of MMG" left me (falsely) confident that I knew what he was planning.

Then again, I'm pretty sure there's no such thing as not needing to scout more, so long as there's unseen areas on the map, so still something to pay attention to.

[DarkMemnarch]

this guy just 7 pooled and pulled all his drones to come and kill me

i fended it off near perfectly

This (http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lv1purZjzA1r6j1muo1_250.jpg)is why you dont do a 6 or 7 pool in zvz

[Acanous]

You know, the best ZVZ 7pool brings 2 drones in with the 'lings, morphs them into Spine Crawlers while you have to micro to kill the 'lings. It's still fend-offable, but it's Brutal. It carries the bonus that while you're trying to fend it off, they're catching back up with econ.
Saw it pulled once in a 3v3, was freaking amazing.

[DarkMemnarch]

You know, the best ZVZ 7pool brings 2 drones in with the 'lings, morphs them into Spine Crawlers while you have to micro to kill the 'lings. It's still fend-offable, but it's Brutal. It carries the bonus that while you're trying to fend it off, they're catching back up with econ.
Saw it pulled once in a 3v3, was freaking amazing.

spines take 50 seconds to make and the lings take 25 when that attack comes you can run around for 25 seconds while the spines are being made. when the lings pop all you do is send 3 drones to each spine and attack his army with everything else. you will win the fight because he has 3 drones 6 lings to 6 lings and 9 drones of yours.
When u win the fight send everything to kill the spines

[Silverraptor]

this guy just 7 pooled and pulled all his drones to come and kill me

i fended it off near perfectly

This (http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lv1purZjzA1r6j1muo1_250.jpg)is why you dont do a 6 or 7 pool in zvz

Come on, man. Post more replays!

[Mutant Sheep]

After spending a few months away from Starcraft, I returned today. And you know what? Clicking is awesome. :smallcool:

[BobVosh]

After spending a few months away from Starcraft, I returned today. And you know what? Clicking is awesome. :smallcool:

Huh?

As a zerg I am very happy with the ghost nerfs coming up.

6 to 10 snipes to kill a brood lord, 11 to 20 snipes for a ultralisk. Late game may be possible again.

[Kyeudo]

On snipe, I would instead have prefered reduced damage to Massive units instead of the current damage nerf. Snipe is basically used for two things normally: Killing Broods/Ultras and for killing casters. The first was imba, the second was things going as normal.

However, there were things snipe could be used for that was pretty nice. You could snipe off banelings to stop a bust, pick off hydras behind roaches, or take down fleeing mutas. Now? It takes twice the snipes to do all of those, making ghosts not useful in any capacity but as anti-casters.

[Kyeudo]

I just played the craziest ZvP I've had in a long time. It is a solid example of why you should never count your opponent as dead and the one time that having a trust fund is a good thing. Take a look. (http://www.sctemple.com/replay/191770/?page=0#r190)

[Silverraptor]

I just played the craziest ZvP I've had in a long time. It is a solid example of why you should never count your opponent as dead and the one time that having a trust fund is a good thing. Take a look. (http://www.sctemple.com/replay/191770/?page=0#r190)

Your lack of adreanal glands saddens me.:smallfrown:

[Silverraptor]

So, I was inspired by Kyeudo playing that I decided to start ladder. I then play this game vs a protoss. It has rekindled my spirit that maybe I'm not so far behind in skill than I thought if this guy was in the top 25, despite the fact that I had no idea what I was doing and was just making a variety of stuff in the hope that it would be enough.

Here's the replay. (http://www.sctemple.com/replay/192079/)

Edit: Holy crap! I won again against a superior gold opponent. Have my skills started to return? Am I starting to get back to plat skill level? Or did this terran forget marines are imba?:smalltongue:

You decide. (http://www.sctemple.com/replay/192092/#APM)

[Kyeudo]

Your lack of adreanal glands saddens me.:smallfrown:

I had impending death on my mind. Great excuse for amnesia.

[Silverraptor]

I had impending death on my mind. Great excuse for amnesia.

Amnesia you say?:smallbiggrin:
http://th01.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/f/2011/312/9/6/day9_plays_amnesia__the_dark_descent__by_g_e_e_r_s-d4fe9b2.jpg

[Tehnar]

I just played the craziest ZvP I've had in a long time. It is a solid example of why you should never count your opponent as dead and the one time that having a trust fund is a good thing. Take a look. (http://www.sctemple.com/replay/191770/?page=0#r190)

Im watching the replay now, and I don't understand why you went with two spines after you took care of the cannon harrass, and you saw that he was going a FFE?

[Kyeudo]

Im watching the replay now, and I don't understand why you went with two spines after you took care of the cannon harrass, and you saw that he was going a FFE?

It's sort of a default, but partially because I don't have anything but lings for a long time in my build. If he pushes with four zealots before my mutas come out, I take disproportionate damage from the attack. I've lost games by skipping them.

[Silverraptor]

So, I was going throught the Day 9 Archive and found This (http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-67-sc2-battlereport-2-part-1-3554577). My god were things horrific back in beta!

[DarkMemnarch]

i have this replay (http://www.mediafire.com/?qn453md2le3jdm7)of the a terran alling me it is quite effective if not scouted good thing i scouted it. I was going toi say something witty but he left.

and with this post i become a dwarf in the playground. :smallcool:

[Silverraptor]

i have this replay (http://www.mediafire.com/?qn453md2le3jdm7)of the a terran alling me it is quite effective if not scouted good thing i scouted it. I was going toi say something witty but he left.

and with this post i become a dwarf in the playground. :smallcool:

How that guy thought he could still win when all his SCVs evaporated to those couple of banelings at the beginning of the fight, I'll never know.

And what was the witty thing you were going to say?

[Silverraptor]

So, I managed to psych out another zerg with my 11 pool to think that I was going to rush him. But I sent 1 ling scout into his base and saw a spine in his mineral line, I knew he would turtle, so I risked a fast expand afterwards.

I think I made the right call, don't you? (http://www.sctemple.com/replay/192688/):smallcool:

[DarkMemnarch]

So, I managed to psych out another zerg with my 11 pool to think that I was going to rush him. But I sent 1 ling scout into his base and saw a spine in his mineral line, I knew he would turtle, so I risked a fast expand afterwards.

I think I made the right call, don't you? (http://www.sctemple.com/replay/192688/):smallcool:

imo you should get the gases in your natural really fast if you are going the infestor route. Also when you get infestors you should try and expand again because you will have a surplus of minerals.

[Silverraptor]

imo you should get the gases in your natural really fast if you are going the infestor route. Also when you get infestors you should try and expand again because you will have a surplus of minerals.

Okay. Thanks for the tip.:smallsmile:

[DarkMemnarch]

i also have a game vs mech. I have found out that it takes 8 base zerg to kill 4 base mech (http://www.mediafire.com/?4va73felnj8fq9p).

[Silverraptor]

i also have a game vs mech. I have found out that it takes 8 base zerg to kill 4 base mech (http://www.mediafire.com/?4va73felnj8fq9p).

Why did you mass roaches when you saw him going mech? Wouldn't lings work better in surrounding the thors better?

Also, YOUR lack of Adrenal Glands saddens me.:smallfrown:

[DarkMemnarch]

Why did you mass roaches when you saw him going mech? Wouldn't lings work better in surrounding the thors better?

Also, YOUR lack of Adrenal Glands saddens me.:smallfrown:

blue flame destroys lings really badly so roaches are the only thing that can stand up to the hellions. I guess i could have afforded adrenal glands but all i need the lings to do was morph inot banelings and destroy the planetaries so adrenal glands wouldnt really do anything.

[Silverraptor]

blue flame destroys lings really badly so roaches are the only thing that can stand up to the hellions. I guess i could have afforded adrenal glands but all i need the lings to do was morph inot banelings and destroy the planetaries so adrenal glands wouldnt really do anything.

But don't Roaches melt under Thors and tanks?

[Tehnar]

I found that I can only beat terran mech with mass mutalisks and then later broodlord/infestor. You just have to get upgrades and not screw up the magic box. 1 missclick and you are dead. If the terran drops tanks you can go mass roach to deal with Thors more easily.

Also agressive expansions with lots of spines take advantage of his immobile force.

[DarkMemnarch]

But don't Roaches melt under Thors and tanks?

if he has 5-6 tanks yes they do but he only had 1. also roaches do alright against thors. Also if you do go mass lings against more the 10 blue flame hellions you are going to got massacred. At least with roaches you can kill off most if not all hellions before they die.

[Silverraptor]

if he has 5-6 tanks yes they do but he only had 1. also roaches do alright against thors. Also if you do go mass lings against more the 10 blue flame hellions you are going to got massacred. At least with roaches you can kill off most if not all hellions before they die.

I see. Roach first to get rid of the hellions. Then if you're out of gas, mass lings.

[Cynan Machae]

So, starting from tonight I'm going to start to learn playing SC2 again. I haven't played more than like 2 ladder games and not really any serious games since maybe 18 months, and the metagame has changed so much since then that all my stuff is outdated :smallfrown:

If anyone want to play some games during the week so that I can practice some builds, hit me up, I should be on during midafternoons and late evenings EST. Probably ZvT and ZvZ (since Lego is Protoss). Preferably Plat and up, but I don't really care, really.

[BobVosh]

I'm a diamond zerg, but I want to start practicing terran. Without losing horribly in ladder. So I can do that.

[DarkMemnarch]

i am also diamond zerg. you can message me in game if you want to play against me.

[DarkMemnarch]

double post

[Battleship789]

So, starting from tonight I'm going to start to learn playing SC2 again. I haven't played more than like 2 ladder games and not really any serious games since maybe 18 months, and the metagame has changed so much since then that all my stuff is outdated :smallfrown:

If anyone want to play some games during the week so that I can practice some builds, hit me up, I should be on during midafternoons and late evenings EST. Probably ZvT and ZvZ (since Lego is Protoss). Preferably Plat and up, but I don't really care, really.

Eh, if you really need a T partner, I can play, though I never ladder. (And therefore, I have no idea how good/bad I am.)

[Silverraptor]

So, starting from tonight I'm going to start to learn playing SC2 again. I haven't played more than like 2 ladder games and not really any serious games since maybe 18 months, and the metagame has changed so much since then that all my stuff is outdated :smallfrown:

If anyone want to play some games during the week so that I can practice some builds, hit me up, I should be on during midafternoons and late evenings EST. Probably ZvT and ZvZ (since Lego is Protoss). Preferably Plat and up, but I don't really care, really.

What's your name and friend code number? I'll update the list after you post it.

[Cynan Machae]

I'm on the list since Thread 1 :P (Cynan.623)

[Kyeudo]

Good news! I went from 73rd in Platinum to 1st in Diamond in less than 3 hours.

Bad news! My ZvZ is trash. I lost this game (http://www.sctemple.com/replay/193707/) and I have no clue why. I seem to have the same or better drone count, same or better upgrades, same or better positioning in battle, roughly the same apm, same number of bases, yet I lose every battle and ultimately the game. Can someone see why?

[Shadow Lord]

Any advice for a newb who wants to get in on the Starcraft 2 scene? Particularly one who wishes to play Zerg?

[Karoht]

Focus on your early game. Scouting, early macro, Queens, shutting down early harassment, etc.
After that, expand your focus.
Learn to use all the tools in you're toolbox, but focus on the most used tools first?

[Silverraptor]

Good news! I went from 73rd in Platinum to 1st in Diamond in less than 3 hours.

Bad news! My ZvZ is trash. I lost this game (http://www.sctemple.com/replay/193707/) and I have no clue why. I seem to have the same or better drone count, same or better upgrades, same or better positioning in battle, roughly the same apm, same number of bases, yet I lose every battle and ultimately the game. Can someone see why?

My ZvZ is Trash to. LETS BECOME PRACTICE BUDDIES!!!
(And when I say practice buddies, I mean you proceed to walk all over me game after game after game. But I'm fine with it if I can get in some decent practice against another zerg player.)

In other news, DarkMemnarch and I were playing against each other last night so I can show off my noob skills. When he won 3 in a row with me playing as a different race each, he said, "Want to see a totally OP Terran tactic?"

Little did he realize, that since he didn't let my forge complete the level 2 shield upgrade when I asked him to over skype when it was only a couple seconds until done, I decided to spite him by not early expanding, which he was expecting me to do. Complete and absolute hilariaty ensued that I'm having trouble still grasping what happened even though it was 12 hours ago. (http://www.sctemple.com/replay/193914/)

[The_Jackal]

Just start playing is my advice. Don't worry about your league or rank, just play games and let the matchmaking formula do its work. Focus on developing your economy. Get out that first queen, don't miss your injects and keep your money low. Delay building units until you need them, and stay focused on hatcheries, overlord, queens and drones.

Also, watch Day9:

http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/4210235/
http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/4712303/

[Kyeudo]

Any advice for a newb who wants to get in on the Starcraft 2 scene? Particularly one who wishes to play Zerg?

Always early expand versus protoss and terran. Yes, even then. A Zerg on one base is dead.

[DarkMemnarch]

My ZvZ is Trash to. LETS BECOME PRACTICE BUDDIES!!!
(And when I say practice buddies, I mean you proceed to walk all over me game after game after game. But I'm fine with it if I can get in some decent practice against another zerg player.)

In other news, DarkMemnarch and I were playing against each other last night so I can show off my noob skills. When he won 3 in a row with me playing as a different race each, he said, "Want to see a totally OP Terran tactic?"

Little did he realize, that since he didn't let my forge complete the level 2 shield upgrade when I asked him to over skype when it was only a couple seconds until done, I decided to spite him by not early expanding, which he was expecting me to do. Complete and absolute hilariaty ensued that I'm having trouble still grasping what happened even though it was 12 hours ago. (http://www.sctemple.com/replay/193914/)

As you can see my terran is subpar. Also I have learned from the ladder that you are never to far behind to bm.

[Silverraptor]

As you can see my terran is subpar. Also I have learned from the ladder that you are never to far behind to bm.

BM?:smallconfused:

[DarkMemnarch]

BM?:smallconfused:

mad manners/ bad mouth your opponent.

here is an example (http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/4995/dickbc.jpg)

and here is another example (http://j.imagehost.org/view/0525/smaller)

[Silverraptor]

Ah. Though I thought I was encouraging you to be more IdrA like in that game in your insults.:smalltongue:

[DarkMemnarch]

Ah. Though I thought I was encouraging you to be more IdrA like in that game in your insults.:smalltongue:

i have learned from this replay (http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft2/replays/35379)

[DarkMemnarch]

i just had the best 3v3 you will ever see. the opponents strategy was very strange (http://www.mediafire.com/?c6mank2dlcaddjk)but we somehow won despite if that.

[Karoht]

Can you elaborate further? What made you counter this unorthodox strategy in the way you did?

[DarkMemnarch]

Can you elaborate further? What made you counter this unorthodox strategy in the way you did?

i noticed they were going all in so i sat back and massed units so when they went all in we were able to defend and win

[Silverraptor]

i just had the best 3v3 you will ever see. the opponents strategy was very strange (http://www.mediafire.com/?c6mank2dlcaddjk)but we somehow won despite if that.

What the crap did I just watch?...:smallconfused:

[BobVosh]

Weekly session is tomorrow :D

And for once I don't have work or any plans so I should be there for a lot longer ^^

[Othesemo]

Could you add me to the list of NA players? Battlenet name is Othesemo, pilot name is Alarin, and my identifier is 214.

[Silverraptor]

So, I finally did the placement match and got gold. Thing is, I think I had the best early game I did in a very long time. Right up until the mutalisks popped that my fingers were starting to say, "Hey, we're not use to this. Give us a break!"

Anyways, in my mind, the banshee radar was going off for some reason. I don't know why, but from what few tell-tale signs, I was just sure my opponent was going banshees subconsiously. I decided I couldn't ignore myself any more and started taking the appropriate steps for it.

And Load and Behold! (http://www.sctemple.com/replay/196107/)

Edit: Okay, I have a question. Like an absolute serious question. Why are gold league players amazed when 1 bases armies get destroyed by 3 bases zerg armies? (http://www.sctemple.com/replay/196115/) This is the second game in a row, I don't get it.:smallsigh:

[Othesemo]

So I've got a question. I almost always play protoss, and I've started to try out proxying via the photon cannon. I've managed to generally destroy a fair number of ai and real opponents using it. Is there a good way to defend against it? By the time my opponent can actually build units capable of fighting, I've gotten my first cannon. It can easily destroy the first zealot or marine they produce, and I can keep building more fairly quickly. After that, I don't see how it can really be defended against. Surely there must be a way?

[DarkMemnarch]

So I've got a question. I almost always play protoss, and I've started to try out proxying via the photon cannon. I've managed to generally destroy a fair number of ai and real opponents using it. Is there a good way to defend against it? By the time my opponent can actually build units capable of fighting, I've gotten my first cannon. It can easily destroy the first zealot or marine they produce, and I can keep building more fairly quickly. After that, I don't see how it can really be defended against. Surely there must be a way?

you need to pull workers from the line to kill the cannon

[Acanous]

Yep, the counter to a cannon rush is effective scouting+Workers. Protoss cannon openers used to be fairly common, but decreased in popularity as it's a cash sink that will delay your tech tree if it fails.

Of course, if you are warping in the pylon outside the enemy base and they see it, run workers over to counter, then the 25 you lose by cancelling is evened out by the time their pulled workers were away from the field.

That'd be why proxy pylon is so popular.

[Thiyr]

Just had a wonderful game (http://www.sctemple.com/replay/196390/). I'm realizing that I needed to scout the right side bases a lot earlier, and should have gotten templar to help deal with the infestors, but all in all, everything turned up quite nicely. I expanded during my early attacks, and managed to have the most expos in the game by a huuuuuuge margin. mixed blessing with the replacement tech built at my expo when they went for the throat the first time, but worked out well enough. So glad my consistent ally is remembering how to not just do a death ball. Serves as a better reason for me to figure that out, and he keeps people off balance quite well at this point now.

In other news, protoss-as-zerg is a funny mindset to play with. "Oh, problem? throw units at them, I can make more somewhat quickly. who cares if i lose a ton, I've got tons of expos!"

[BobVosh]

Good news! I went from 73rd in Platinum to 1st in Diamond in less than 3 hours.

Bad news! My ZvZ is trash. I lost this game (http://www.sctemple.com/replay/193707/) and I have no clue why. I seem to have the same or better drone count, same or better upgrades, same or better positioning in battle, roughly the same apm, same number of bases, yet I lose every battle and ultimately the game. Can someone see why?

The big thing is despite you had more drones, you had them almost all stacked up. So you mined out your main really fast, but had almost no drones in the natural. Then you moved them all to the natural. (This is after he demolished your natural once)

So he had about 250ish mineral income difference above you for a decent amount of time. This gradually accrued to the point where it was a pretty massive difference.

[Silverraptor]

Just had a wonderful game (http://www.sctemple.com/replay/196390/). I'm realizing that I needed to scout the right side bases a lot earlier, and should have gotten templar to help deal with the infestors, but all in all, everything turned up quite nicely. I expanded during my early attacks, and managed to have the most expos in the game by a huuuuuuge margin. mixed blessing with the replacement tech built at my expo when they went for the throat the first time, but worked out well enough. So glad my consistent ally is remembering how to not just do a death ball. Serves as a better reason for me to figure that out, and he keeps people off balance quite well at this point now.

In other news, protoss-as-zerg is a funny mindset to play with. "Oh, problem? throw units at them, I can make more somewhat quickly. who cares if i lose a ton, I've got tons of expos!"

"My life for Auir, Executor!"

Yes, yes. Now hurry up and die already. I have 5 more waiting to be warped in.

:smalltongue:

[DarkMemnarch]

i have received a request from Silverraptor to post some of my replays. Here is one (http://www.mediafire.com/?dhf86mt68y6256v), i might post more in the not so distant future.

[Silverraptor]

So, this is the first game I faced today.
A must watch (http://www.sctemple.com/replay/197281/#APM).

Edit: Wow. I faced my first opponent on the new ladder that actually expanded, and rather quickly too. However, I stupidly double expanded, taking advantage of his complete non-aggression. 3 base zerg still beats 2 base terran (http://www.sctemple.com/replay/197298/).

Well, my bonus pool is 0 and I wasn't able to play out a real game. lol.

[DarkMemnarch]

So, this is the first game I faced today.
A must watch (http://www.sctemple.com/replay/197281/#APM).

Edit: Wow. I faced my first opponent on the new ladder that actually expanded, and rather quickly too. However, I stupidly double expanded, taking advantage of his complete non-aggression. 3 base zerg still beats 2 base terran (http://www.sctemple.com/replay/197298/).

Well, my bonus pool is 0 and I wasn't able to play out a real game. lol.

silver wants me to post this (http://www.mediafire.com/?bi8dzg9ge66ygi2)

and here is another tvz (http://www.mediafire.com/?84l5dzcsjllrl2d)

[Thiyr]

"My life for Auir, Executor!"

Yes, yes. Now hurry up and die already. I have 5 more waiting to be warped in.

:smalltongue:

What? You just killed all the stalkers? That's okay, I killed a few roaches first. I'll be fine, We Have Reserves. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WeHaveReserves)

[Kyeudo]

Hey, did you know that 30 lings can hold off 40 roaches for five minutes? Behold the power of speedlings. (http://www.sctemple.com/replay/199151/)

[Cybren]

How am I not on here??
Cybren.412 on north America, diamond league, grinding out games

[Acanous]

If anyone here makes it to Master or Grandmaster, I demand a guide.
Specifically, a thread titled "Why you suck at starcraft (and how to suck less)"

I've been recently grinding out the accolades for custom VS AI (Done Very Hard, everything except "Get 100 wins". That'll take a whiiiile)
I've noticed that the Starcraft AI is what I like to refer to as "Smartarded". They won't attack anywhere they haven't scouted, and while using stealth is next to useless against them at first, if you've got ghosts or high templar kicking around, it's not like they make multiple layers of detection.

Silly Zerg AI, only having three overseers...

[Cybren]

If anyone here makes it to Master or Grandmaster, I demand a guide.
Specifically, a thread titled "Why you suck at starcraft (and how to suck less)"

I've been recently grinding out the accolades for custom VS AI (Done Very Hard, everything except "Get 100 wins". That'll take a whiiiile)
I've noticed that the Starcraft AI is what I like to refer to as "Smartarded". They won't attack anywhere they haven't scouted, and while using stealth is next to useless against them at first, if you've got ghosts or high templar kicking around, it's not like they make multiple layers of detection.

Silly Zerg AI, only having three overseers...

Ten reasons you (and I) suck:

1) You're not building enough workers.
2) You're not building enough units or depots/pylons/overlords.
3 You don't identify when its necessary to expand.
4) You're not macroing while you micro your army, and you're probably not microing at all.
5) You're not paying attention to timings.
6) When you lose you blame your opponent and not yourself.
7) You're afraid to ladder.
8) You ONLY ladder and never get any consistent practice.
9) You don't have playing-buddies to share replays with, talk strategy, and grind customs.
10) You're not building enough workers, units, and depots.

[Karoht]

Honestly, I'm going through the campaign again, trying to get my 'build constantly' thing down pat. I managed to pull it off well for a few missions, but terribly for others.

Media Blitz. I figure if I can expand to all 3 bases and keep up constant production and constantly keep the Odin and a decent sized force moving (with decent micro) then I might not suck completely.

EDIT:
Calgary Barcraft this weekend. MLG. Woooo!

[Thiyr]

So. Had a great game earlier today. That phoenix range upgrade? Super awesome. makes it a ton easier to play the "kite the muta" game, and at least as far as that game went, meant i could deal with mutas with phoenix without having to match numbers. Was outnumbered, but managed to do well anyway. I'd upload a replay, but sctemple is being a whiny little punk right now. prob be up in the afternoon though.

[DarkMemnarch]

Why do people keep all ining me on the ladder. Its getting really annoying.

This (http://www.mediafire.com/?viyvjtqsecjc4xl)is how you fend off a 7 pool when someone is trying to put spines in your base.

This (http://www.mediafire.com/?nbr05rm1jun78yn)is how you fend off a 3 rax with the scvs pulled.

[Stasgard]

Came back to this game after a few month hiatus, and switched over to NA. Finished my placement matches, and got placed into Diamond. Figured I'd throw my name into the GiTP Starcraft players.

Name: Stasgard
Code: 720

Gonna start grinding me some games, and then rage quit after a few weeks as always. Look forward to be able to playing some of you guys. The meta of ladder tends to annoy me.

[DarkMemnarch]

Came back to this game after a few month hiatus, and switched over to NA. Finished my placement matches, and got placed into Diamond. Figured I'd throw my name into the GiTP Starcraft players.

Name: Stasgard
Code: 720

Gonna start grinding me some games, and then rage quit after a few weeks as always. Look forward to be able to playing some of you guys. The meta of ladder tends to annoy me.

You tend to get allined/cheesed alot in diamond, or at least that is how most of my games tend to go. There are times however that you do get to play a macro game against people and its really fun.

[Kyeudo]

Odd, I see alot of stable plays.

[BobVosh]

I can't decide between barcraft this Saturday, or the thing we do on this forum.

[Silverraptor]

So, I don't seem to understand zvz at all. I don't know why. I hate staying on 1 base to long, yet when I try to expand I just die instantly.

However, ZvP I seem to understand quite well. Let them wall in, wait a bit, then send and overseer in. If they have a twilight counsil, no problem. If they have a stargate, plot down a few spore crawlers and a hydra den and its still no problem. Keep them on 2 base and harass the 3rd whenever they try, its just so...natural. Completely different from ZvZ.

I need a ZvZ strat that allows me to expand fast without dying to lings when going roaches or dying to roaches when going banelings.

[Kyeudo]

So, I don't seem to understand zvz at all. I don't know why. I hate staying on 1 base to long, yet when I try to expand I just die instantly.

However, ZvP I seem to understand quite well. Let them wall in, wait a bit, then send and overseer in. If they have a twilight counsil, no problem. If they have a stargate, plot down a few spore crawlers and a hydra den and its still no problem. Keep them on 2 base and harass the 3rd whenever they try, its just so...natural. Completely different from ZvZ.

I need a ZvZ strat that allows me to expand fast without dying to lings when going roaches or dying to roaches when going banelings.

Do what I do. Scout on 9. If you don't see cheese, 13 Hatch, 15 pool. You will get out 4 lings just as a 13 gas, 13 pool build can put 4 lings at your base. This leaves you defensive in the early game, but it gets you that first expo and probably an economic edge since you can use spines to fight your battles and drone up.

[Silverraptor]

Do what I do. Scout on 9. If you don't see cheese, 13 Hatch, 15 pool. You will get out 4 lings just as a 13 gas, 13 pool build can put 4 lings at your base. This leaves you defensive in the early game, but it gets you that first expo and probably an economic edge since you can use spines to fight your battles and drone up.

Can you post examples?:smallsmile:

[Kyeudo]

Can you post examples?:smallsmile:

Sure. Here's (http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?se1ts3zkduadgck) me doing it right and here's (http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?r8a39nz6xs4d79k)me doing it wrong. Note that one of the things I am currently working on in ZvZ is knowing when to drone hard and when to build units.

Also, BobVosh is evil for introducing me to Squadron Tower Defense.

[BobVosh]

Also, BobVosh is evil for introducing me to Squadron Tower Defense.

Oh surely you can quit anytime you want...
muwhahahahhahahahaah

Barcraft last night was a ton of fun. I went there for 3 hours, 8 hours later I actually left the bar. I had actually planned on coming back for this, but ya that didn't happen.

[Acanous]

I thought Barcraft was Sunday 0.o

[BobVosh]

We Houstonians are overachievers and had it last night and tonight.

[Mynxae]

Imi and I keep getting rushed, it pisses us off.. She goes random so if she's Toss she goes Zealots/DT, if she's Terran she goes M+M+Tanks, if she's Zerg she goes Roaches.

But I always go Stalkers+Colossi. Which works if we don't get rushed. Gahhhhhh. :/

[Karoht]

Yes, our Barcraft was on Sunday. And what a show.
DT's by Huk was awesome, at least it was the first few times it worked.
Marineking, the King of Marines, won by, you guessed it, spamming Marines. Well, that and demonstrating some awesome control over said Marines. And that Factory drop to cut off the Infestors and go wreck a hatchery? Oh wow, awesome move.

In fact, I'll just say it straight up. I can't wait for this weeks edition of APM on gamebreaker.tv to see those highlights again.

[Silverraptor]

Imi and I keep getting rushed, it pisses us off.. She goes random so if she's Toss she goes Zealots/DT, if she's Terran she goes M+M+Tanks, if she's Zerg she goes Roaches.

But I always go Stalkers+Colossi. Which works if we don't get rushed. Gahhhhhh. :/

What league are you and are you guys 2v2 partners? If so, Dark Memnarch and I can help you make an "Anti-rush" start without changing too much.

[Kyeudo]

Imi and I keep getting rushed, it pisses us off.. She goes random so if she's Toss she goes Zealots/DT, if she's Terran she goes M+M+Tanks, if she's Zerg she goes Roaches.

But I always go Stalkers+Colossi. Which works if we don't get rushed. Gahhhhhh. :/

In 2v2, what would be a rush in a 1v1 game is actually typical strategy. You'll see stuff like stalker/hellion, ling/hellion, ling/stalker, and so on. They'll do stuff that would normally torpedo an economy so they can put on so much pressure early on to kill you unless you also torpedoed your economy.

[Legoshrimp]

Question, should I play protoss or zerg?

[Silverraptor]

Question, should I play protoss or zerg?

Zerg. Its the only true "honest" race that doesn't rely on hiding your tech.

[Cybren]

play whichever you like better. they're all fun.

[Legoshrimp]

Zerg. Its the only true "honest" race that doesn't rely on hiding your tech.

...What?


play whichever you like better. they're all fun.

The problem is I like them both about equally. Probably going to go with toss just because we have like 10 zergs that play in the group.

[Kyeudo]

...What?


Zerg can't really hide their tech ever without schenanigans. One scan of the main will usually tell you everything you need to know about a Zerg's tech choices, with maybe another at the nat to confirm.

Zerg, however, just don't care. We kill you anyway.

[Thiyr]

Zerg can't really hide their tech ever without schenanigans. One scan of the main will usually tell you everything you need to know about a Zerg's tech choices, with maybe another at the nat to confirm.

Zerg, however, just don't care. We kill you anyway.

True though that may be, I still resent the implication made by the resident dinosaur that the other races -rely- on hiding tech. It is entirely possible to play an effective game without trying to be shenanigans-y and hiding what you're doing. Admittedly, hiding what you're doing is generally speaking a better option unless you're planning to try to push your opponent down a tech path you can deal with easier (open HT, transition to colossi when you see ghosts, or some such), but it's hardly a requirement.

Also: Remember that game I said I was gonna post before, with the whole me loving the new phoenix? Here it is. (http://www.sctemple.com/replay/201446/)

And for the wait, have another! (http://www.sctemple.com/replay/201449/) I was quite happy about my early attacking, for what little it did, if not just for keeping me -really- up on the worker game.

[Kyeudo]

Well, as you point out, if you can do even the smallest amount of deception without changing how your build works, you should do it. A Terran or Toss can and do spread important tech buildings across their main and natural, the whole area of it. The Twilight Council might be off in the boondocks of their base, next to that pylon they built in the smoke to watch for drops, while they have the robo nestled in their natural. One scan can't catch all that. Two scans isn't guaranteed to spot it.

For a zerg to do the equivalent, we have to put an overlord over there, have it barf creep, and then never move it for the rest of the game or let it die. Our tech structures, because we only build one of them ever, are as vulnerable to sniping as the Robotics Support Bay. Putting something like that out where killing one overlord will eventually destroy the building is just asking to get it dropped.

[Thiyr]

Well, as you point out, if you can do even the smallest amount of deception without changing how your build works, you should do it. A Terran or Toss can and do spread important tech buildings across their main and natural, the whole area of it. The Twilight Council might be off in the boondocks of their base, next to that pylon they built in the smoke to watch for drops, while they have the robo nestled in their natural. One scan can't catch all that. Two scans isn't guaranteed to spot it.

For a zerg to do the equivalent, we have to put an overlord over there, have it barf creep, and then never move it for the rest of the game or let it die. Our tech structures, because we only build one of them ever, are as vulnerable to sniping as the Robotics Support Bay. Putting something like that out where killing one overlord will eventually destroy the building is just asking to get it dropped.

Alternatively, you could go way far out of your way and just creepspread all the way to the boonies of the map. That said, while all of this is entirely true, I still stand by the point that it's not like T or Z -need- to hide, it's just -better- to hide. Not that this is a good or bad thing, just that it is.

Also, I'll say it balances out anyway. What zerg loses in hiding information it makes up for in getting information. So many practically free ways to get information as a zerg, probably my favorite thing about the race.

Is it sad that my favorite parts of everything but toss is about information gathering? Scans and creep and overlords, oh my!

[Silverraptor]

Alternatively, you could go way far out of your way and just creepspread all the way to the boonies of the map. That said, while all of this is entirely true, I still stand by the point that it's not like T or Z -need- to hide, it's just -better- to hide. Not that this is a good or bad thing, just that it is.

Also, I'll say it balances out anyway. What zerg loses in hiding information it makes up for in getting information. So many practically free ways to get information as a zerg, probably my favorite thing about the race.

Is it sad that my favorite parts of everything but toss is about information gathering? Scans and creep and overlords, oh my!

Sacrificing and overlord to see into your opponents base is something zerg hates to do, even if it must be done. That's 100 minerals for the hope of seeing what your opponent is up to.

Now, holding every Xel'naga and a ling at every expansion, that is detailed informtion. Its just, "Oh look, a delicious army is moving into the middle of the map." Swarm on all sides, my friend. Swarm on all sides. Or just counter-attack the main. In all likely-hood, zerg will delaying your army longer then you can delay the zerg army if its a base trade, because by then they have more bases.

[Tehnar]

On most maps, if the Terrat/Toss is smart, you simply won't get enough information with a sacrificial overlord. You need to have a good knowledge of builds, good scouting on the front and a sacrificed overlord to know what they are getting (and I still keep getting surprised).

For example, a few games ago I scouted a Terran. The front showed me a factory with a reactor, a building starport and a barracks building a techlab. The overlord didnt get far enough to see both gas.

So I expect a hellion push into banshees. Sadly I did not see the second barracks with a tech lab, and it was a hellion/marauder push timing. I was preparing for banshees while keeping my front secure with 3 spines.

Turns out lings are not very good at dealing with Marauders and Hellions. :smalleek:

[Thiyr]

Sacrificing and overlord to see into your opponents base is something zerg hates to do, even if it must be done. That's 100 minerals for the hope of seeing what your opponent is up to.

Now, holding every Xel'naga and a ling at every expansion, that is detailed informtion. Its just, "Oh look, a delicious army is moving into the middle of the map." Swarm on all sides, my friend. Swarm on all sides. Or just counter-attack the main. In all likely-hood, zerg will delaying your army longer then you can delay the zerg army if its a base trade, because by then they have more bases.

I was more thinking just overlords spread everywhere on the map more than saccing an overlord. Now I'm suddenly aware of drops and air shenaniganry even if they avoid the towers as well! between that, creep, and lings being possibly the best scout unit ever is where I was coming from. And if I want info on the base I'd rather just drop a changeling. Not hard to get in and out, and that'll get me a good deal of info. And thinking about it, even saccing an ovie is better than losing an obs trying to scout a base.

[Legoshrimp]

Zerg can't really hide their tech ever without schenanigans. One scan of the main will usually tell you everything you need to know about a Zerg's tech choices, with maybe another at the nat to confirm.

Zerg, however, just don't care. We kill you anyway.

So you say getting a lair and building overlords is schenanigans? OR building a queen for spreading creep?


Well, as you point out, if you can do even the smallest amount of deception without changing how your build works, you should do it. A Terran or Toss can and do spread important tech buildings across their main and natural, the whole area of it. The Twilight Council might be off in the boondocks of their base, next to that pylon they built in the smoke to watch for drops, while they have the robo nestled in their natural. One scan can't catch all that. Two scans isn't guaranteed to spot it.

For a zerg to do the equivalent, we have to put an overlord over there, have it barf creep, and then never move it for the rest of the game or let it die. Our tech structures, because we only build one of them ever, are as vulnerable to sniping as the Robotics Support Bay. Putting something like that out where killing one overlord will eventually destroy the building is just asking to get it dropped.

You completely forgot about creep tumors, you should probably start using those they are really helpful.

So lets compare protoss to zerg on terms of hiding tech, to hide your tech as zerg you either have to build a queen or build overlords and have lair, WHAT ZERGS DO THAT?!?! and then move the creep/overlord to wherever you want to hide the tech. To do that as protoss you have to build a pylon(same cost as an overlord, and it can't move) and then build the tech structure there. If something goes wrong and your hidden tech is scouted, as zerg you can move the overlord away and save 100 minerals, as protoss you lose the tech cost, AND the cost of the pylon. So clearly zerg is better at hiding tech then protoss.

And anyways zerg has an even better benefit of not having its production ability tied directly to its tech structures, so you can know exactly what zerg is able to build but not counter it. They can have a spawning pool, a roach warren a spire and an infestor pit. and there are several things they can be going, and they can change between them whenver they want, but for a protoss to switch from robo to stargate they have to build 2-4 production buildings to get out a decent number of them quickly. So even if zerg couldn't hide their tech they just from how their production works have some level of hiding what they are going to build, even if all of their tech is scouted.


Zerg. Its the only true "honest" race that doesn't rely on hiding your tech.

None of the races rely on hiding tech. Just because you put something in the middle of your base so that it is harder to be scouted by an overlord doesn't mean that the entire strategy is based around it not being scouted. If you can make anything harder for your opponent for no extra cost why don't you? Speaking to you zergs why don't you put a creep tumor down on the edge of your base that will spread creep to your natural and extend the creep in your base so that you can put buildings along the edges more easily?

[Kyeudo]

Speaking to you zergs why don't you put a creep tumor down on the edge of your base that will spread creep to your natural and extend the creep in your base so that you can put buildings along the edges more easily?

Because doing so is like painting a target on it. If my roach warren goes down to a drop or a void ray, that's a full minute where I can't build roaches. It isn't like losing a starport or a stargate, where you lose one or two cycles of production from one building. In ways you lose all your cycles of production. Yes, you emergency switch to lings or hydras or infestors or whatever, but you built that structure because you decided that having that type of unit was important to your army composition. It would be like suddenly not being able to build marauders against a roaching player.

[Thiyr]

Because doing so is like painting a target on it. If my roach warren goes down to a drop or a void ray, that's a full minute where I can't build roaches. It isn't like losing a starport or a stargate, where you lose one or two cycles of production from one building. In ways you lose all your cycles of production. Yes, you emergency switch to lings or hydras or infestors or whatever, but you built that structure because you decided that having that type of unit was important to your army composition. It would be like suddenly not being able to build marauders against a roaching player.

That's a full minute you can't build roaches, but once that warren drops, you're able to instantly poop out 7 or more roaches per hatch. Your cycle isn't entirely lost unless you use your larvae on other units, and depending on the build you're using, you may not even be behind at all unless they take out more than one building. If you take out my stargate, I can never get that time back for that one gate, and (if memory serves me right) I lose the resources on the unit in production. It ends up balancing out, in that the zerg loses the few larvae that would be naturally produced while stockpiling.

Heck, I'd say losing the tech structure for zerg is more like getting artosis pylon'd or getting your addon sniped. You lose some functionality, but it's more a delay than an outright loss. Still hurts, but it's a setback instead of a reset.

[Tehnar]

The problem is that zerg has to reinforce all the time. You can never do stand up fights against anything, except in the very late game with broodlords.

Not building roaches for a full minute is simply devastating, unless you were far ahead. Its akin to taking out a cybercore when you have to defend against mutas.

[Thiyr]

Umm...Every race has to reinforce constantly unless they're terribly far ahead, that's not really race-specific. If I start getting aggressive with a 6-7 gate push and don't have a pylon up at their base, I won't reinforce enough to deal with defenses. If in the lategame I run into a blob o' army, I'm hosed unless I recover right away, because -they're doing the same thing-. Zerg may need higher numbers, but they can also burst-replenish their army a whole heck of a lot faster anyway. And I still don't believe that the zerg can never win stand up fights ever until BL. infestors do a great job with that via fungal. Ultras are a pain in the ass unless the other side is well prepared, and unless their scouting happens at just the right time, a sudden surprise of 7 ultras that weren't there a minute ago isn't that hard to pull off.

Actually, I think that's the real zerg "hidden tech" thing. It's not hiding the building, it's that they don't need to have that building for long before it makes a huge change in their army comp. It takes forever for me to get a notable amount of...well, anything but templar tech after getting its associated tech structure. In the time it takes for me to get a robo and get, say, three immortals, that would be the equivalent of dropping a hydra den and getting, say, 21 hydras. I know, I know, "but you've also got gateways", but I can't repurpose those into getting immortals if that's what I need. It's the 2 minutes where you don't see their base or army and suddenly it's entirely different that is the zerg hidden tech.

[Tehnar]

You said you can't keep pushing if you lose your forward pylon; Imagine all your gates were on a single pylon, that pylon was destroyed and fresh units could come in at 90s (building build time + unit production time) at the soonest.

And at the same time you are fighting a battle. Remember this is zerg, we can't really sit in a base and defend from there. Tech switching is very difficult (read ineffective) due to lack of upgrades for your new units.

[Silverraptor]

You said you can't keep pushing if you lose your forward pylon; Imagine all your gates were on a single pylon, that pylon was destroyed and fresh units could come in at 90s (building build time + unit production time) at the soonest.

And at the same time you are fighting a battle. Remember this is zerg, we can't really sit in a base and defend from there. Tech switching is very difficult (read ineffective) due to lack of upgrades for your new units.

Tech switching is difficult for all races. In fact, I found tech switching easier as zerg than the other races. Terran and protoss has to make certain builds to make certain units and multiples of that building. If you suddenly need a tech change, you need to build multiples of the othe building asap.

Zerg just needs to build 1 building and wait 1 production cycle.

[Thiyr]

You said you can't keep pushing if you lose your forward pylon; Imagine all your gates were on a single pylon, that pylon was destroyed and fresh units could come in at 90s (building build time + unit production time) at the soonest.

And at the same time you are fighting a battle. Remember this is zerg, we can't really sit in a base and defend from there. Tech switching is very difficult (read ineffective) due to lack of upgrades for your new units.

Losing all those gates at once is more like losing a hatch than anything: I really can't build anything anymore until replaced. Which is why nobody in their right mind builds one pylon for their buildings if possible. And either way, it's not really a perfect comparison. And that's -all- tangential to the point I was really getting to, which was the "zerg hidden tech".

Oh yea, and zerg tech swapping is vastly easier than it is for any other race, as silverraptor points out. If you tech swap to let's say corruptor, to make it take a nice long time, you have to drop the spire, and then poop out 7 corruptors (if you're one-basing.) If I need to tech swap to voids, I have to drop two or three stargates, and make one at a time from each. It takes a whoooooole lot longer. If I'm swapping to stalker vs your roach, you "need" speed (read: it makes the unit a hell of a lot better but without it the unit is still viable) to my "needing" blink (see: the same thing I just said). For terran? It's arguably even worse, as they need more upgrades in general, have to get addons if they don't have them anyway (not a huge issue for most builds admittedly), and they don't have -any- "suddenly I have an army" mechanic that the other races have (protoss with warpgate, zerg with just being zerg.)

[Tehnar]

Note this is not a whine how weak zerg is, I am quite happy with the balance of the races.

Yeah but other races units are a whole lot better per food then zerg units are. Lets take a example. PvZ. Zerg is mostly going roach/hydra with corruptors vs gatewayball with collosus. Toss' takes down the roach warren with a drop and attacks. Lets say the zerg hold off the first push (assuming he is already maxed on his roaches). As a zerg you can now build 3 units:

- zerglins: they maybe have 1 armor upgrade and 0 melee upgrades. They die horribly to zealots/sentries/collosus
- hydras: their upgrades are good, but without roaches to tank, they die horribly
- corruptors: yeah they are great but they don't shoot down which kind of makes them pointless
- mutalisks: if you don't have a big ball already, getting 10-20 out now won't help, especially if you are expecting another push.

Basically you really dont have a choice of what to build; anything you do build will push you even farther behind.

My point is that if a zerg loses a critical building it is a lot harder to get back from that then for the other races. So if a zerg hides tech, and its discovered (and killed) he loses much more then the other races do.

[Kyeudo]

Tehnar basically sums up why Zerg tech hiding doesn't happen often. We instead play with all our cards on the table and win anyway.

[Dinner Thief]

hey so this isn't terribly relevant, but it is SC2.

I was wondering how many of you guys play hero attack. its a custom game, usually around 4th on the list, but pretty competitive. heck of a different play style, as you really only command 1 unit. I just thought I would ask as I recently became addicted to it. And if you haven't tried it, I recommend it, Its pretty fun.The games usually last 30-50 minutes, which is slightly longer than regular multiplayer, but that's why I like it.

[Pie Guy]

hey so this isn't terribly relevant, but it is SC2.

I was wondering how many of you guys play hero attack. its a custom game, usually around 4th on the list, but pretty competitive. heck of a different play style, as you really only command 1 unit. I just thought I would ask as I recently became addicted to it. And if you haven't tried it, I recommend it, Its pretty fun.The games usually last 30-50 minutes, which is slightly longer than regular multiplayer, but that's why I like it.

Sounds like DotA or LoL. Any differences?

[Silverraptor]

So, I made several attempts on funday monday. Behold! (http://www.sctemple.com/replay/203322/)

Oh, and I also submitted this one (http://www.sctemple.com/replay/203323/). But nothing much happens in it, so Day 9 probably won't pick it.

[Legoshrimp]

So, I made several attempts on funday monday. Behold! (http://www.sctemple.com/replay/203322/)

Oh, and I also submitted this one (http://www.sctemple.com/replay/203323/). But nothing much happens in it, so Day 9 probably won't pick it.

What was the funday monday?

[Silverraptor]

What was the funday monday?

You may only Counterattack.:smallamused:

Edit: Oh, and I also updated the list. Check it out to make sure I got you.

[Legoshrimp]

You may only Counterattack.:smallamused:

Edit: Oh, and I also updated the list. Check it out to make sure I got you.

Ohhh yeah, I should try that some. :smallamused: It has got to be so annoying to play against.

[fred dref]

hey so this isn't terribly relevant, but it is SC2.

I was wondering how many of you guys play hero attack. its a custom game, usually around 4th on the list, but pretty competitive. heck of a different play style, as you really only command 1 unit. I just thought I would ask as I recently became addicted to it. And if you haven't tried it, I recommend it, Its pretty fun.The games usually last 30-50 minutes, which is slightly longer than regular multiplayer, but that's why I like it.

It'd be nice if you told us anything beyond the fact that you control one unit, because honestly there are a lot of customs games where you control one unit, and it can go a lot of different ways.

[Legoshrimp]

It'd be nice if you told us anything beyond the fact that you control one unit, because honestly there are a lot of customs games where you control one unit, and it can go a lot of different ways.

From what I have heard it is a standard AoS.

[BobVosh]

I should try this funday, as it is something I have been meaning to work on for a long time.

[Silverraptor]

I should try this funday, as it is something I have been meaning to work on for a long time.

DarkMemnarch and I have realized that this funday is us almost every game minus the occational harass we do.:smallbiggrin:

[BobVosh]

I almost constantly harass as it is very rare I don't go ling-muta.
However adding in counter attacks of 12-16 lings would only help.

[DarkMemnarch]

DarkMemnarch and I have realized that this funday is us almost every game minus the occational harass we do.:smallbiggrin:
Ya i play pretty passively almost every game.

[Karoht]

You may only Counterattack.:smallamused:

Edit: Oh, and I also updated the list. Check it out to make sure I got you.

See, counterattack can be defined many ways.
In this context, my personal favorite is leaving 2-4 Zerlings out of your base but near by enough to move in. Cut people off from retreating down a ramp, that sort of thing. Astonishingly useful, as most people don't use an attack move when they retreat, and the zerlings sometimes get lost in the shuffle. They're tiny, so sometimes you luck out and the opponent doesn't realize they are there until they see their units getting stuck and bumbling around like idiots.

Of course, one attack move later, they're vaporized but hey.

And sometimes harassing an army as they attempt to retreat is more effective than actually fighting it head on. Parting shots against Terran Bio-balls especially, as the medivacs will usually be out of position if the oppenent really decides to cut and run for it.

[Legoshrimp]

See, counterattack can be defined many ways.
In this context, my personal favorite is leaving 2-4 Zerlings out of your base but near by enough to move in. Cut people off from retreating down a ramp, that sort of thing. Astonishingly useful, as most people don't use an attack move when they retreat, and the zerlings sometimes get lost in the shuffle. They're tiny, so sometimes you luck out and the opponent doesn't realize they are there until they see their units getting stuck and bumbling around like idiots.

Of course, one attack move later, they're vaporized but hey.

And sometimes harassing an army as they attempt to retreat is more effective than actually fighting it head on. Parting shots against Terran Bio-balls especially, as the medivacs will usually be out of position if the oppenent really decides to cut and run for it.

Thats not a counter attack, that is a flank. Day9 said what he wanted is basically if you see your enemy move into the middle of the map, grab your army move it around and attack their base.

[Mutant Sheep]

It'd be nice if you told us anything beyond the fact that you control one unit, because honestly there are a lot of customs games where you control one unit, and it can go a lot of different ways.


Sounds like DotA or LoL. Any differences?

It is a DotA clone, but its a bit simplified. It does have a bit more focus on the creeps, you can upgrade your teams guys and buildings. Also, the teams are race-specific, so you vote on a race for your team. You can have a zergvszerg or whatever, but you cant have heroes from different races on the same team.(No medic and ultralisk for you!)
There are also only shops inside the bases, and the items vary for the races. (The basic ones are constant though, like +10/25/50% armor/energy/damage, or the +2% to stats. Those are for all the races.) It is a fun game, though you WILL get a team of idiots and be facing a premade bunch of pros who enjoy "pubstomping" if you just join a game instantly. Beating the "pros" is great fun.:smallamused:

[BobVosh]

Sounds like every MOBA game then.

[Shadowleaf]

I recently started playing Starcraft 2 again, this time playing Zerg on ladder instead of Terran, and oh boy the game is so much more challenging now. I had a 3-rax Stim, Shield +1 Damage Marine push I did in every matchup when I played Terran, and it carried me straight to Diamond and eventually Master when it was released.

My biggest problem right now is my mechanics are really lackluster. My macro now compared to half a year ago just outright sucks, so I don't feel ready for 1v1 laddering. I've tried team games and practice games with some of my American friends, but they're all around Bronze-Gold league, so I don't feel like I'm getting that much practice out of it.

Would anyone be interested in some regular practice games or 2v2/3v3 team games? I've access to both an American and a European account. I probably belong in high Gold low Plat right now, and I'd really like to step my game up again.

[Kyeudo]

Just hit the GitP channel. There's almost always some plat or diamond players in there who'd be willing to help. I'm always there when I log on. :smalltongue:

[fred dref]

Last I played I was Gold, but holy cow that was ages ago. I'm always considering going back to play some games, but then I remember that it takes 7 years to open SC2 on my aged computer, and then just go play LoL instead.

[Shadowleaf]

TotalBisquit is apparently hosting a Pro Monobattles Challenge. (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=317230)

tl;dr 4v4 Monobattles with HayprO, Jinro, Sheth and The Little One for 1000 dollars casted by The Cynical Brit.


So much awesomeness.

[Legoshrimp]

Today is the next gitp sc2 session, so hope to see people here! It starts in about 2 hours, 5 EST

[Silverraptor]

I don't know why... but I can't stop watching this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3I5h7UaOuk) and everytime I do watch it, I always laugh. I just don't know why!:smallbiggrin:

[BobVosh]

Wow, epic scream.

[Othesemo]

I'm loving the Phoenix upgrade. They're considerably more fun to strafe zerg with now.

[Karoht]

I'm loving the Phoenix upgrade. They're considerably more fun to strafe zerg with now.
Just remember and then start taking out their overlords, you can supply block them. In the early game, that can be killer. For every overlord you kill, your also up 100 minerals and a larva.

[Thiyr]

Just remember and then start taking out their overlords, you can supply block them. In the early game, that can be killer. For every overlord you kill, your also up 100 minerals and a larva.

Sadly, that only starts working well once they spread their overlords for scouting, or if they're leaving their base without anti-air. That said, when you get the opportunity, snipe away, it's great to pop those little blimps.

[Karoht]

When they leave their base? Pffft. 2-4 Phoenix is all you need for a daring raid. In and out in 20 seconds. Repeat. And if they throw their Queen at you, it's just begging to get picked up. I mean, no one gets Hydralisks. :smallwink:

[Silverraptor]

Hey guys. I really feel like monobattling for this weeks session. Hope to see you all there!:smallbiggrin:

[Tehnar]

I've got a sweet little strategy vs a FFE toss (a combination of my usual 11 pool and a funday monday topic), that works on certain maps (Shakuras, Taldarim, Antiga). Here are the replays:

Replay1 (http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=257597)
Replay2 (http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=257598)
replay3 (http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=257599)
replay4 (http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=257600)

This is the summary:
9 overlord
10 scout
11 pool
build drones to 14

now your scouting drone should be in the base of the FFE toss. Depending on what you see you can go 2-6 lings and pressure his front or do a runby. At around 17 food you should have enough minerals to build another hatchery, use your scouting probe to build a hatchery in his base. While the offensive hatch is building you will have enough mins to start your natural as well.

Your main goal is to runby your first lings into his base, to protect the hatchery. Once the hathery is up, start building queens, drones for spine crawlers and lings. Offensive crawlers for the win.

Even if scouted the toss will usually use up more resources to deal with the offensive hatch

[Thiyr]

When they leave their base? Pffft. 2-4 Phoenix is all you need for a daring raid. In and out in 20 seconds. Repeat. And if they throw their Queen at you, it's just begging to get picked up. I mean, no one gets Hydralisks. :smallwink:

Sadly, I tend to see both a decent chunk of hydras and by default at least one spore. And even with 4 phoenixes, 20 seconds is gonna be about two or three ovies. A pain, but I tend to see ovies overproduced for scouting anyway.

Though now I'm remembering running into a ton of hydra while going air and still winning due to the magic of phoenixes. Weird, it's like phoenixes are good or something.

[iyaerP]

I feel the need to plug this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ve8ggmDUq0U

A free for all of some of the biggest pros. casted by husky, happened during IEM.:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallcool:

[Kyeudo]

When they leave their base? Pffft. 2-4 Phoenix is all you need for a daring raid. In and out in 20 seconds. Repeat. And if they throw their Queen at you, it's just begging to get picked up. I mean, no one gets Hydralisks. :smallwink:

If I see a toss going heavy air, I get hydralisks. The only reason hydralisks are bad in ZvP is that Toss usually has Colossi. Heavy air prevents Colossi.

[Othesemo]

You know, anticlimaxes can be funny. In this game I just played, I started out by massing up stalkers. After a while, the other person hadn't attacked, so I sent out an observer to check if he was trying to mass marines. He wasn't, so I kept the observer there and kept building up an army to counter what he was building (marines and thors, with one or two tanks). About twenty minutes in, he still hadn't attacked, and upon moving my observer a bit more I realized that he didn't have any detection- just a crap load of thors. So I sent in a warp prism, warped in 5 dark templars, and destroyed his entire base.

He was not amused.

[Kyeudo]

I had a game like that, except I was the idiot with no detection. He was sitting back, massing roaches, while I droned away. An overseer wanders through my base, sees no detection, and he builds tunneling claws. I build a whole bunch of spine crawlers at my front to hold the roaches while I get up my mutas, then suddenly there are 40 roaches in my drone line. All for want of a single spore crawler.

[Silverraptor]

I had a game like that, except I was the idiot with no detection. He was sitting back, massing roaches, while I droned away. An overseer wanders through my base, sees no detection, and he builds tunneling claws. I build a whole bunch of spine crawlers at my front to hold the roaches while I get up my mutas, then suddenly there are 40 roaches in my drone line. All for want of a single spore crawler.

Yeah, because of this, I have a mental timer that tells me when I should have detection units by for different things. Like if a player is going fast banshees, I usually have an evo chamber up by a particular time. I also usually make an overseer at my front against toss at a certain time after lair in case of DTs.

So far its been working and I've been able to catch every cheese. Best moment was when my "Just in case" spore crawler killed his first observer trying to see my front.:smallbiggrin:

[Shadowleaf]

If I see a toss going heavy air, I get hydralisks. The only reason hydralisks are bad in ZvP is that Toss usually has Colossi. Heavy air prevents Colossi.Also the fact that Hydralisks move extremely slow. They won't be in position to stop Phoenix harass unless you keep groups in each mineral line. Once you begin moving them out, Phoenixes can just swing around your army and go into your mineral line again.
The potency in Protoss air is usually low Phoenix numbers for harass (forcing your opponent's Hydras back and/or forcing him to build static defense) plus the very, very dangerous Void Ray/Colossi mix. Hydras simply disappear against Void Rays and Colossi.

[Kyeudo]

Also the fact that Hydralisks move extremely slow. They won't be in position to stop Phoenix harass unless you keep groups in each mineral line. Once you begin moving them out, Phoenixes can just swing around your army and go into your mineral line again.


2-3 spore crawlers solves pheonix harass rather well. Hydralisks are for void ray harass.



The potency in Protoss air is usually low Phoenix numbers for harass (forcing your opponent's Hydras back and/or forcing him to build static defense) plus the very, very dangerous Void Ray/Colossi mix. Hydras simply disappear against Void Rays and Colossi.

Fixed that for you.

Hydras are not for base defense vs pheonix. They are for covering your army when you move out. If he hasn't put out a lot of pheonix, he can't really harass more than your outlying overlords, and if he has, more spore crawlers around anything important are more reasonable than more hydras for base defense.

[Silverraptor]

So, I just had my first decent game against zerg in a long, long time. I tried DarkMemnarch's 14 gas/14 pool strat felaying my expo a bit, but making sure that I could get a 3rd relatively quickly, which I did. My opponent was also rather good sported.

Replay. (http://www.sctemple.com/replay/207938/)

Edit: I honesty do not know how I won this. Not as in, "Oh my god I should have died!" But as in, "What the heck was my opponent doing that allowed me to win this this easily?" Anyways, I think I did quite well on a hellion proof wall off at the front. Watch and Enjoy. (http://www.sctemple.com/replay/207943/)

[Silverraptor]

Okay, I don't get zvz at all. I'm losing consecutively to silver league zerg opponents. I don't get it. I'm macroing well, expanding when they do, I build up some units, and then they attack me with X4 more stuff that I can't stop. Help please.:smallfrown:

[DarkMemnarch]

Okay, I don't get zvz at all. I'm losing consecutively to silver league zerg opponents. I don't get it. I'm macroing well, expanding when they do, I build up some units, and then they attack me with X4 more stuff that I can't stop. Help please.:smallfrown:

post the replay and we can tell you exactly what went wrong. Otherwise it is just speculation on our part.

[Silverraptor]

post the replay and we can tell you exactly what went wrong. Otherwise it is just speculation on our part.

I just decided I will try protoss again and play zerg when I have you looking over my shoulder at camp. Speaking of protoss, blink stalkers are really good. (http://www.sctemple.com/replay/208145/#APM)

[Silverraptor]

Guys, I have a must watch game for everyone here. I expect you all to watch it. Here's the Replay. (http://www.sctemple.com/replay/208288/#APM)

On another note, how do I submit replays to the "When Cheese fails" channel?

[Othesemo]

lol... I was not expecting that. At the end, I was wondering how he would recover from that. And then it just said 'sTsSTRiKeR has left the game' and I started laughing.

[Silverraptor]

lol... I was not expecting that. At the end, I was wondering how he would recover from that. And then it just said 'sTsSTRiKeR has left the game' and I started laughing.

My thought process during the whole thing.

"Huh? A Pylon? A second pylon? Oh, he's trying to wall off cannons. Better try to get through the 3rd pylon and kill the probe. Oh look, he didn't wall off, better kill the probe then. Probe dead, these pylons aren't a threat. Better go back to macro since I've won. Oh look, a second probes.

SEND THE BATTLESHIPS! SEND... EVERYTHING! WE MUST KEEP THAT PROBE FROM GETTING TO THE TARGET!"

sRsSTRiKeR has left the game

"LoLz"

[Thiyr]

So that was kinda frustrating. PvT. I'm playing a decent game, but he seems to be playing super passive. Super super passive. I start getting paranoid, and think "Wait...he could be going banshee or something. And I have no detection. And I need detection up now if he was doing that." My forge finishes just as his banshee hits. My cannon placement is insufficient. my resources get slowed down that the push he had I would have no way to defend.

I really need to get that detection timing down better.


edit: upside, got a zerg to rage because he went hatch-first and didn't scout the pylon behind his expo. or the two cannons. Nor did he ever deal with the pylons, so i had a great staging ground for my two base six-gate pushes. The best upside? He gave me some good idra-classic lines.

[Tehnar]

Try scouting the gas..or build a assimilator on one of his geysers. If terran takes 2 gas really early he is going for some sort of banshee / ghost heavy play.

[Thiyr]

Try scouting the gas..or build a assimilator on one of his geysers. If terran takes 2 gas really early he is going for some sort of banshee / ghost heavy play.

The traditional terran wall makes gas-scouting iffy at best on the maps without guaranteed spawns. That said, it's more just that i need to remember to not neglect getting a robo even if I'm going heavy gateway.

[Tehnar]

Well if you use your 9 or 10 probe you can usually get into the terran base without encountering the wall. If you encounter a wall off then something is fishy... and practically the only fishy thing terran can do is banshee or thor push, and you can prepare for both with a robo.

[Thiyr]

Well if you use your 9 or 10 probe you can usually get into the terran base without encountering the wall. If you encounter a wall off then something is fishy... and practically the only fishy thing terran can do is banshee or thor push, and you can prepare for both with a robo.

Generally I scout on 9, but if it's a map like, say, Tal Darim Altar? If I don't hit their base with the first try, I'll hit a wall. If it's smaller, or there's fewer spawns, I can normally sneak in. That said, banshee doesn't come up terribly often. I just noticed that I need to make sure I -can- get detection if I need it, which I've been terrible about.

[Acanous]

I always make something for detection. Even when I'm going gate-heavy I'll make one or two obs. As someone who uses stealth pretty heavilly, when I encounter an opponent who does not have sufficient detection, I win right there, no matter how good his macro is.
That's actually part of why I have such a hard time against terran, they have those scans for when there's no raven/missile turret around.

[Tehnar]

You can also get a lot of info by just scouting the front after your initial scout. If there are no addons on the rax then something fishy is going on.

[Silverraptor]

Holy crap, I never realized how fun DTs are when you incorporate them into a legitimate build instead of cheesing.

Can you guys critique me on timings and what not to make this build better? (http://www.sctemple.com/replay/210637/) I want to do some DT harass, leave when he starts getting detection, merge them into Archons and then go for a big push while expanding behind it.

Edit: Attempt number 2. Please critique. (http://www.sctemple.com/replay/211300/):smallsmile:

[DarkMemnarch]

Holy crap, I never realized how fun DTs are when you incorporate them into a legitimate build instead of cheesing.

Can you guys critique me on timings and what not to make this build better? (http://www.sctemple.com/replay/210637/) I want to do some DT harass, leave when he starts getting detection, merge them into Archons and then go for a big push while expanding behind it.

Edit: Attempt number 2. Please critique. (http://www.sctemple.com/replay/211300/):smallsmile:

never use a pylon for part of your wall if you are going FFE

Also in that build you put down a forge then the nexus before gateway and cannon. also when going dts get a warp prism to warp in zealots with. Generally people wont notice the dts until its too late.

Scouting, send your first zealot to see what your opponent is doing. If you sense roach all in, make 3 more cannons to defend.

[Silverraptor]

Posting this here for DarkMemnarch's enjoyment since he was on skype with me at the time of said game. (http://www.sctemple.com/replay/211967/)

[BobVosh]

Well, I have no net for like 2 weeks while I wait for ATT to hook it up. I moved the last couple of days. I'll be on the forums still, but no Sat sessions :'(

[Silverraptor]

Posting this for DarkMemnarch as well as its another game I played when we were on skype. (http://www.sctemple.com/replay/212360/)

[DarkMemnarch]

Why is there no one at the Saturday session?

[Silverraptor]

Why is there no one at the Saturday session?

Well, I just got back from a wedding and I'm tired.

Don't know about anyone else though...

[BobVosh]

I have no net :(

Also no reminder was posted, that doesn't help.

[Kyeudo]

Well, I just got flew back from a wedding and I'm tired boy are my arms tired.


Fixed that for you.

[Silverraptor]

Fixed that for you.

No... The wedding was in my town at the beach. There was no flying to or from anywhere. But my arms were tired from holding an umbrella against 40mph winds for an hour and a half.

[Kyeudo]

Apparently you've never heard that tired old joke before . . .

[DarkMemnarch]

So, I was going throught the Day 9 Archive and found This (http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-67-sc2-battlereport-2-part-1-3554577). My god were things horrific back in beta!

I see your day 9 daily and raise you this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAkK7wqBpRQ).

[Shadowleaf]

My American friend got Stephano to write a personal greeting to me backstage at Lone Star Clash. I am pretty psyched.

Also, I love the SCII community.

[Karoht]

Barcraft this weekend. And it's on my berfday! I can't wait.

(For reference, the Berfday is the day before one's birthday)

[Silverraptor]

Apparently you've never heard that tired old joke before . . .

Yes, I have. I was just telling you that there was no flying involved, so the joke didn't quite fit.:smalltongue:

[Silverraptor]

Well, I'm fighting silver opponents constantly with the occational gold. Anyways, since I'm beating most of them, I'm not that worried for a placement demotion. So, I decided to try out my FFE DT style (http://www.sctemple.com/replay/215149/). I think I'm starting to do better at it, especially since this was the first time I FFE on this map. Critique is still asked for. Also, it was nice fighting a PvP (http://www.sctemple.com/replay/215148/) and not falling apart at the seems for once.

[druid91]

Am I the only one who is amused by starcraft being more like a sport than a videogame?

[Kyeudo]

Starcraft is both a videogame and a sport. Your amusement does not compute.

[Silverraptor]

Starcraft is both a videogame and a sport. Your amusement does not compute.

Agreed.:smallcool:

[Silverraptor]

So, just going to post on my continuation of being awesome. I think I'm getting better at holding off Terran as Protoss. Because what Day 9 said, if you barely hold off a push, then that is the best feeling ever, because you got away with everything you wanted to and still lived (http://www.sctemple.com/replay/215282/).:smallcool:

[Karoht]

Am I the only one who is amused by starcraft being more like a sport than a videogame?You can thank Korea. They made it their national pass-time, they made being a professional gamer an actual option.
Okay, I'm exaggerating slightly, the whole community did this, but Korea and their fanatacism towards the original Starcraft are what pushed the game in this direction.

Blizzard has actually said, they're going to support the eSport side of SCII much more when Heart of the Swarm goes live. Though they have not stated exactly how they plan on supporting it.
Totally speculating a bit, but if it means I can purchase/watch the livestream for a given Starcraft tournament through Blizzard or as part of the game client, that would be kind of cool.

[Silverraptor]

So everyone, this person roles up random, so I do a fast scout to see whats happening. Now, here are all my cheese check list for the probability of a person cheesing:

Are they Random? Check! Did they respond to my "gl hf" with "Hi" or some other friendly chat? Check! Do they send their scout worker after yours instead of continuing to scout? Check! Do they have no gas when any terran player needs to have gas? Check! Do they have 2 supply depos before gas or barracks? Check! If they try to wall off, did they fail to do so properly, knowing that they will not need it? Check! Do you see the SCV down below your base building a bunker? Check! Do you see Barracks in your natural expansion? Check!

But it was okay, because he's better than me. (http://www.sctemple.com/replay/215810/)

:smalltongue:

Edit: Also, I had the most fun with the games I played today. I almost won all of them, but a 10 pool + pulling half of drones cheese defeated my FFE. I almost defended it, but I accidently sent all my probes back when their were only 3 drones left behind my wall. Didn't realize he was trying to pick off my pylon for lings until it was too late. And yes, I used a pylon in my wall. I panicked when I saw the drones leaving his base, alright!

[DarkMemnarch]

So everyone, this person roles up random, so I do a fast scout to see whats happening. Now, here are all my cheese check list for the probability of a person cheesing:

Are they Random? Check! Did they respond to my "gl hf" with "Hi" or some other friendly chat? Check! Do they send their scout worker after yours instead of continuing to scout? Check! Do they have no gas when any terran player needs to have gas? Check! Do they have 2 supply depos before gas or barracks? Check! If they try to wall off, did they fail to do so properly, knowing that they will not need it? Check! Do you see the SCV down below your base building a bunker? Check! Do you see Barracks in your natural expansion? Check!

But it was okay, because he's better than me. (http://www.sctemple.com/replay/215810/)

:smalltongue:

Edit: Also, I had the most fun with the games I played today. I almost won all of them, but a 10 pool + pulling half of drones cheese defeated my FFE. I almost defended it, but I accidently sent all my probes back when their were only 3 drones left behind my wall. Didn't realize he was trying to pick off my pylon for lings until it was too late. And yes, I used a pylon in my wall. I panicked when I saw the drones leaving his base, alright!

i like how he didnt make an oc and had 700 mins at the end.

also im horrible (http://www.mediafire.com/?oxdtxw5zd0clp4c)

[Silverraptor]

Ummmm...guys? How did I win this? (http://www.sctemple.com/replay/217569/) I'm serious, I did so bad and made too many mistakes and was really slow on alot of things to make any sense that I won this. Please tell me how?

[Karoht]

Winning is a biproduct of being better than your opponent. Take that however you want.

[Silverraptor]

Winning is a biproduct of being better than your opponent. Take that however you want.

But...but...but...

I was bad. I was messing everything up. I didn't have any smoothness in my gameplay at all. If I was fighting against myself in a PvZ, I would lose. That was my entire thought process that the zerg was way far ahead of me since I pictured where I would be at in those certain periods of time.:smallfrown:

Anyways, is there a way to FFE on metalopolis? I know there is a weird and precise way to do it, but I don't know it.

[ragingrage]

Anyways, is there a way to FFE on metalopolis? I know there is a weird and precise way to do it, but I don't know it.

I think there is, but it's definitely more risky than with other maps. You incorporate the nexus into walling off the part near the ramp, and put a cannon in the mineral line to defend the other side. Not sure how safe it is, though.

[Karoht]

But...but...but...
I was bad.Then take solace in the fact that you were less-bad than the other guy.

[Silverraptor]

Then take solace in the fact that you were less-bad than the other guy.

...That wasn't quite as reassuring as you may think it was...

[Karoht]

...That wasn't quite as reassuring as you may think it was...
It still means that, despite being off your game that match and/or being out of your element, you performed better overall than the other guy. The fact you are asking about it also means you will learn from it and grow from it. I'm of the mind that most failures in most endevours are not something to be ashamed of in all cases. This is one such case, especially since you didn't really fail. Even failure teaches us something. It's those who don't grow from failure, or even recognize failure (or in your case, recognizing less than peak performace), that are of concern. You will grow from it. Feel proud.

[Silverraptor]

Wow. Zerg around my league suck. They fast expand without using and overlord to scout for pylons, so natural cannon rush, and then they rage when I send in my DTs to harass. Whiners. (http://www.sctemple.com/replay/218609/):smalltongue:

Edit: So, I encountered a sitation in this game. But I remembered the words of Day 9 that, if they rush to warp prism DTs in your base, you just go effing kill them. (http://www.sctemple.com/replay/218717/):smalltongue:

[Acanous]

I finally have a useable strat as Terran. I go Fast Banshees. One racks, popping out marines one at a time behind my wall, one siege tank, sieged, a couple of missile turrets for detection and AA, two starports. Go when you have 6 and are researching cloak. If they push early, it's going to be zealots, ling/roach, or Marine/Marauder, and having high ground and better firing vantage setup is going to win you any but the most determined All-in. Your Banshees in his mineral line wins you the rest.

Only silver/Gold, but out of 12 matches, I won 11 of them this way.

(The one I failed was due to just SO MANY MARINES. 4Racks>1)

Oddly, this actually puts protoss as my worst race, despite them being my favorite.
OK, so that's not true. I can adapt with Protoss, and I have at least three strats (Early Air, Stalker/Immortals, and Dark Templar Harass), two of which work on an FFE. But Win/Loss wise I'm rocking Terran now, and they're usually my worst race. o.0

[Kyeudo]

If you wait for six banshees, what time are your banshees getting to their base? I can have mutas or infestors out fairly fast vs terran.

[DarkMemnarch]

The rage (http://www.sctemple.com/replay/218754/#APM)is strong with this one.

[Othesemo]

The rage (http://www.sctemple.com/replay/218754/#APM)is strong with this one.

lol. At the end, I couldn't help but think "Yeah, how's that working out for you?"

Well played, though. I actually thought he was going to win for most of the first 15 minutes.

[Mutant Sheep]

The rage (http://www.sctemple.com/replay/218754/#APM)is strong with this one.

Hey, warn us when you link us to an idiot. Some of us have delicate sensibilities and get offended by these people. :smallwink:

[DarkMemnarch]

Hey, warn us when you link us to an idiot. Some of us have delicate sensibilities and get offended by these people. :smallwink:

I am sorry about that. I hope the damage he inflicted was not serious.

[Thiyr]

I am sorry about that. I hope the damage he inflicted was not serious.

He only killed a handful of roaches, no biggie. You inflicted far more :P

[Silverraptor]

He only killed a handful of roaches, no biggie. You inflicted far more :P

:smallbiggrin:

+1 internet.

[Thiyr]

And now to un-earn that internet with MORE REPLAYS.

a bunker contain that I refused to let get the better of me. An opponent who didn't expand nearly enough. A protoss with six bases. All this and more, on the next episode of Dragon Ball Z(erg who aren't in this game at all) (http://www.sctemple.com/replay/219356/)!

[Karoht]

Barcraft Report

DRG=DR. ZerG?
HuK made top 4, for the second MLG tournament in a row. It would be great to see some more canadians in the top 20. I think HuK can take the win one of these days, but he seems to get bogged down and ignore his Macro when a big complex fight breaks out. He did multidirectional pressure really well and did some excellent non-forcefield surrounds.

Won another 4 person party pack for the gaming center just down the road from me.

Barcraft + Berfday was awesome.
Baneling cake = win.

Signs from Barcraft
"Nerf Pylons"
"Do Not Clench Fish"
"Larva are OP"
"Make exceptions and defense them"
And a slew of player specific signs as well as various 'umad' type messages.

So much fun.

[Shadowleaf]

Barcraft Report

DRG=DR. ZerG?
HuK made top 4, for the second MLG tournament in a row. It would be great to see some more canadians in the top 20. I think HuK can take the win one of these days, but he seems to get bogged down and ignore his Macro when a big complex fight breaks out. He did multidirectional pressure really well and did some excellent non-forcefield surrounds.

Won another 4 person party pack for the gaming center just down the road from me.

Barcraft + Berfday was awesome.
Baneling cake = win.

Signs from Barcraft
"Nerf Pylons"
"Do Not Clench Fish"
"Larva are OP"
"Make exceptions and defense them"
And a slew of player specific signs as well as various 'umad' type messages.

So much fun.
The entire tournament format was heavily against HuK. He had to play a lot more games compared to MKP (and so did DRG for that matter).
If they changed the format, he would have an extremely convincing chance of winning a MLG.

[Karoht]

The entire tournament format was heavily against HuK. He had to play a lot more games compared to MKP (and so did DRG for that matter).
If they changed the format, he would have an extremely convincing chance of winning a MLG.That is what I kept hearing as well. Any idea why the format stacked so many games on him?

I get it. It's because he's Canadian isn't it? I knew it!
Blue text is sarcasm

Oh well. Nerf Pylons already!

[Shadowleaf]

That is what I kept hearing as well. Any idea why the format stacked so many games on him?

I get it. It's because he's Canadian isn't it? I knew it!
Blue text is sarcasm

Oh well. Nerf Pylons already!Double elimination and extended series.

[Silverraptor]

Well, I have been finding myself in increasingly rough waters in PvP, now that most toss open with a robo in some way as well. It sure was nice to see a 4 gate (http://www.sctemple.com/replay/219550/) after all this time.:smallbiggrin:

Edit: Also, it seems I'm getting better at going up against Protoss (http://www.sctemple.com/replay/219891/) and Terran (http://www.sctemple.com/replay/219890/). It feels weird on delaying my expansion for so long, but I realized that I can't play protoss like a zerg, creating your whole army at the last second. Maybe this will be how I can stand up in ZvZ and start making more units than drones early on.

[Silverraptor]

Next Funday Monday topic:

MONOBATTLES!!!!!!!


Who is with me!:biggrin:


In other news, this is the most epic Insane AI surrender before 5 minutes attempt EVAR!!! (http://www.sctemple.com/replay/220911/)

[Kyeudo]

I'm certainly up for some Monobattles.

[BobVosh]

Tomorrow I return with glorious, glorious internet. I missed net.

Did you guys know you have to go online to turn offline mode on for steam? How does that even make sense?

[KuReshtin]

Ugh.. I haven't played SC2 for AAAAAAGES! (holy crap, I just checked my account history, and the last game I've got listed was played on March 3rd. 2011!) I need to start up again.

Had to reinstall my computer since last time I played, though, so i need to reinstall SC2 as well. Been trying to follow some of the live streams from some of the recent tournaments, which has got me interested again.
Just need to get going with the install again, I guess.

[Karoht]

Been trying to follow some of the live streams from some of the recent tournaments, which has got me interested again.
Just need to get going with the install again, I guess.
I highly recommend the show APM on gamebreaker.tv
It's maybe 10 minutes long at most, but they count off the top 5 matches in competative play. Very cool highlights.

[KuReshtin]

I highly recommend the show APM on gamebreaker.tv
It's maybe 10 minutes long at most, but they count off the top 5 matches in competative play. Very cool highlights.

I like the broadcasts by Husky and Day9, and I recently found the "State of the Game" show and watched a few of those episodes, even if they're not really about game play as much as discussions about what's been going on lately.

[BobVosh]

I actually don't like Day[9]'s casting that much. His dailies are great, and so on, but I don't like his casting.

PsyStarcraft is great for diamond and lower zergs to learn some strategy, although he is quite crude. To say the least.

HDStarcraft can be amusing, but he is slowly dropping out of the scene as far as I can tell. He does work with IGN to do more professional stuff, but the channel is dying.

LagTV is funny, but definitely not a place to learn SC. Pretty crude at times as well. This is the most unique, in that they do only fan based games. Best known for when cheese fails.

Ahnaris is pretty good, but I don't have enough time to watch him that frequently due to the others I have listed.

Oh I forgot Husky, somehow. Husky is probably the best solo caster in terms of entertainment. His knowledge of the game mechanics is sometimes dodgey, and misses a lot of stuff in terms of drops. That said he is by far the most funny and energetic for casting.

Those are the only ones I can remember while sitting here at work.

[KuReshtin]

Got the game installed last night. Then had to wait for the patching to get done, which took a while, and in the mean time i got bored waiting for it and sat in front of the tv for a while, and ended up not gettign back to the computer until about 1:30am.. Just enough time to start up the game and watch the intro, only to then shut it down and go to bed.

I'll try to get a game or two in this evening.
Anyone on the EU server that want to kick my ass?

[BobVosh]

Unfortunately almost all of us are US. Stupid blizzard with its regional restrictions...

[Shadowleaf]

Got the game installed last night. Then had to wait for the patching to get done, which took a while, and in the mean time i got bored waiting for it and sat in front of the tv for a while, and ended up not gettign back to the computer until about 1:30am.. Just enough time to start up the game and watch the intro, only to then shut it down and go to bed.

I'll try to get a game or two in this evening.
Anyone on the EU server that want to kick my ass?I'm game. I really need to start playing proper 1v1's again. :smallsigh:

Edit: I'd also be up for monobattling on US this weekend if I get the time. I've gotten quite good with Queens, Hellions and Sentries. I like a challenge. :smalltongue:

[KuReshtin]

Unfortunately almost all of us are US. Stupid blizzard with its regional restrictions...

Yeah, i know they've got those stupid regional restrictions, which is why i made sure to mention that I'm in the EU region.


I'm game. I really need to start playing proper 1v1's again. :smallsigh:


Excellent. I should be around probably from about 7PM BST/8PM CET.

KuReshtin #876

[Karoht]

Unfortunately almost all of us are US. Stupid blizzard international laws and trade zoning with its regional restrictions...Fixed that for you.


@Day9 and Husky
They usually do casting for MLG and other competitions as well. It's great seeing those two goof off every time I go to Barcraft.

[Silverraptor]

The rage (http://www.sctemple.com/replay/218754/#APM)is strong with this one.

I went through the replays you left on my computer and I also found someone strong in the ways of the rage (http://www.sctemple.com/replay/221298/).

[BobVosh]

So is anyone going to get on? Noone is there except for chan. And he is afk. I'll be back on in about 30-40 minutes, hope to see someone soon.

[Silverraptor]

I don't think I will be able to get on. My laptop that I had Starcraft 2 on was stolen.:smallfrown: I filed a police report with the serial number, but that's about the best I can do. I'm trying to find a replacement for it currently.

[Mutant Sheep]

Yeah, nobody was on yesterday at all when I checked, so I just did my usual custom games and went away. :smallredface:

[Shadowleaf]

Me and my brother's game (plus two of our friends) got shown on Funday Monday. I can now die happy. :smallbiggrin:

[BobVosh]

what was the funday today anyway?

[Shadowleaf]

what was the funday today anyway?
Good ole' monobattles.

[Recaiden]

I was there, though I won't be this next week.

[Talesin]

Played my first game for nearly a year, against the hard computer. I randomed both of us and it ended up TvP. I stomped him pretty hard but I felt crazy out of practise.

Was missing hot keys repeatidly, forgetting what units to build, not building a factory... Though Terran was always my worst race to play. Not quite the Plat player I was back in S1.

[Silverraptor]

Me and my brother's game (plus two of our friends) got shown on Funday Monday. I can now die happy. :smallbiggrin:

What are your names so we know what to look for?

[Shadowleaf]

What are your names so we know what to look for?Last game, I'm Kragen, my brother's Arhejar. Two last guys are someone I play League of Legends with.

We submitted two games. In my opinion, our Queen/Battlecruiser/Sentry/Hydralisk game was better than the one shown, though.

[Kyeudo]

Making the Vikings!

[DarkMemnarch]

So, is anyone here watching the IPL 4?

[ragingrage]

So, is anyone here watching the IPL 4?

I am. Nestea tearing everyone up :smallbiggrin:

[Silverraptor]

So, I did a FFA, and I really like this game (http://www.sctemple.com/replay/227940/) I did right here. All of us were random, if you can believe it.:smallamused:

I went stalker HT because since they were all terran, I knew they would have marines for voidrays.

[DarkMemnarch]

It is funny how bad some people are in diamond league. This was probably the worst attempt at a "2 gate" I have ever seen. I was going to bm him but he left before i could :smallfrown:

Here is the replay (http://www.sctemple.com/replay/227974/#APM), watch and be astounded.

[Thiyr]

It is funny how bad some people are in diamond league. This was probably the worst attempt at a "2 gate" I have ever seen. I was going to bm him but he left before i could :smallfrown:

Here is the replay (http://www.sctemple.com/replay/227974/#APM), watch and be astounded.

Just had a similar experience in 2v2s recently. a decent 2gate+marine+scv all in. Stopped cold by a bunker and 2 zealots. So satisfying.

[DarkMemnarch]

Just had a similar experience in 2v2s recently. a decent 2gate+marine+scv all in. Stopped cold by a bunker and 2 zealots. So satisfying.

Fending of cheese is probably one of the most satisfying feelings in starcraft.

[Kyeudo]

Which is appropriate, because losing to cheese is one of the worst feelings in the world.

Such as losing to a bunker rush followed by two hellion drops and a thor drop.

[Kyeudo]

Ever have one of those games where things don't go quite the way you expect them to? Two words: Clutch Ultralisks (http://www.sctemple.com/replay/228228/)

[Dragon Elite]

I just played a game in ZvZ where my opponent massed lings and hydras. 22 banelings later, he ragequit. :smallbiggrin:

[Shadowleaf]

Tired NesTea makes me sad. He was in such a good position in all games versus Alive, but his tiredness just makes him throw the games. :smallfrown:

IPL has really been disappointing for me.