Warhammer 40K Tabletop XV: "More People Should Be Punched In The Head." [Archive]

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Cheesegear

2012-02-10, 06:59 PM

40k-in-the-Playground presents...
Cheesegear's Newbie Guide on How to pick Warhammer 40K army
by Cheesegear and GitP contributors

Disclaimer: This is not a guide to say which armies are 'better' than other armies. Except in hyperbole. The 'stars' notation is for what Newbies should play. By no means does this mean that you shouldn't play Chaos Daemons. It means that if you're a new player and don't fully understand the rules to the game, it might be hard to make Daemons work.

Any unit that gets specifically mentioned is a stand-out unit, or will represent a 'must-have' unit that the army has.

General Advice for all armies;
Where possible, you should always talk to a GW Staff Member. No, you don't have to actually listen to or do anything they say. But, you should at least talk to them so they can point you in at least a general direction. Don't buy anything on your first trip into the store. GW Staff are very persuasive, and you can - or will - often end up buying something you don't even want.
If and when you do finally decide on an army, play a few games in an actual GW Store using the Store's models. Otherwise, where possible, use proxy models. This will give you a basic understanding of most of the rules and the turn sequence and a general idea of how your army-of-choice plays. Or, at least give you an idea that an army or unit that you thought was cool, really isn't. Or maybe that particular army just isn't for you. And that unit that 'looks cool' doesn't fit your play style.
Read a Codex. Whatever gets said on the internet, means absolutely nothing if you don't have a Codex to understand what's being said. This ties into the above in that it's kind of important that you have played a few games and know the rules.
GW doesn't mention it all that much, but; You don't have to use your army's Codex for your army. For example; It's perfectly reasonable to, say, use the Chaos Space Marine Codex to represent a 1st Company of Loyalist Marines. You can, in fact, use Imperial Guard models to represent Tau, or Eldar. Just so long as your models look suitably awesome and your models conform to the rules of a different list (the WYSIWYG rule). If you can also give a background justification - or 'fluffy' reason - for why your Imperial Guard are wielding Shuriken or Pulse Rifles; Even better!
In regards to the above; 'Counts as' models can generally be shown to be a fluffy reason for why you have what you have. So, maybe your Imperial Guard regiment has a lot of Ogryns. You can use an Ogryn-holding-a-Lascannon as your 'Heavy Weapon Team'. As long as it's WYSIWYG, and at least makes a passing attempt at conforming to the rules (such as base size/shape), nobody cares. However, GW really doesn't like it when you come into their store and start using a different company's miniatures to play a GW game. However, making a scratch-build from Green Stuff and Plasticard is totally okay. Just so long as you aren't giving their competitors money, eh?
With that said; Painting, Green Stuff, Plasticard and Conversions in general, the only way to get better at it, is to practice. Start easy, start small. Start with adding cloaks to troops. Large, rectangular pieces of Green Stuff. Easy. Maybe you'll be confident to add textures. Ability comes with practice. And, there are literally dozens of tutorials to be found on YouTube. And hundreds of tutorials just about everywhere else.
Less is more. Don't try to equip your unit to do everything. Assign your units to fulfill a role, and let them do it. Don't waste points on things you aren't going to use.
Bodies are far more important than Wargear. Do not spend 100 extra points on Wargear, if you could otherwise spend 100 points on buying a whole unit. Wargear is not a substitute for models. Well, it is. But, it's a poor substitute.
In regards to the above two points, very rarely, should you spend more than 200 points on a single model (such as an HQ model), or 300 points on a single unit.
Troops. Win. Games. Do not, under any circumstances, skimp out on your Troops selection. More often than not they are the cheapest unit in the Codex, and, Troops are the only units who can capture an objective. Any unit can contest an objective, but, only Troops can claim objectives. All contesting objectives will do is get you is a Draw.
Assault on Black Reach. Bad for Space Marine players. Good for Ork Players.
Vehicles and You (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8118712&postcount=1011).
Cheesegear's Speaking Of Tournaments.... (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8301600&postcount=42) General themes to consider when attending a competitive arena.
To Tailor Your List Or Not To Tailor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10373704&postcount=571)

Wraith's Handy-Dandy Guide to Painting and Assembling an Army (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8722344&postcount=1421)

Closet_Skeleton says:
"Every Troops choice you spend on a non-Scoring unit is Troops choice wasted."

How To Write An Army List (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8702512&postcount=1358) | Sample (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8713541&postcount=1393)

Guide to Armies
Space Marines (Codex Marines, SMs):
Pros: Space Marines are the eponymous 40K army. They are the army by which all other armies are judged. Just about all their units can be outfitted in many different ways to fulfill many different roles (but, in regards to General Advice, they should only try to do one thing at a time). With few exceptions, the entire army selection is plastic for easy conversions and assembly (and, most of the metal models you don't even need). As plastics, the army is also relatively cheap to buy.
GW Staff are extremely knowledgeable on all things Space Marine.
Troops unit choice with the ability to Infiltrate and have Sniper Rifles.
Power Armour and Bolters.

Cons: Honestly, none. Save for the common misinformation that GW Staff will tell you to get you to buy certain units and sets (like Assault on Black Reach). But, this is by no means bad. As a Space Marine is a Space Marine. And pretty much all the units in the Codex can be useful one way or another.
One such example is that there is a growing proportion of Space Marine players who feel - despite the fluff and the statline - that Scout Squads are superior to Tactical Squads (the reason why is outside the scope of this guide).
The only truly bad thing about Space Marines, is that everybody has them. GW sells them at every opportunity. All starter sets ever produced by GW has contained Space Marines as one of the 'learner' armies. By extension, a lot of people turn to Space Marines because that's what they learned the game with, but, what they don't realise, is that the Assault on Black Reach starter kit is weak.

Recommendation for Newbs; *****. But the Assault on Black Reach kit isn't a good start to a Space Marine army. GW likes misinformation.
* or ** depending on whether or not you care about being 'just like everyone else'.
What's so bad about AoBR? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7733811&postcount=990)

Codex Space Marines theoretically allows you to build 7 different 'themes' of Space Marines (even though it's 6) based around what colours and which Special Characters you like. However, any special character can be used in any Chapter, painted any colour that you choose. So, really, what Chapter you choose is kind of irrelevant since you can use other Chapters' special characters anyway.

The common belief is that 'Space Marines is Space Marines'. They all have Power Armour and Bolters. All of the above applies to the below;
Dark Angels: (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12681041&postcount=1444) You will need the Errata/FAQ. Essentially a carbon copy of Codex Marines with the option to play Ravenwing (all bikes) or Deathwing (all Terminators). Both of which, for the most part, can be done much better by Codex: Space Marines and either Grey Knights/Space Wolves, respectively. *
Black Templars: (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11039428&postcount=79) You will need the Errata/FAQ. Slightly more focused on close combat. With some unique rules. ***
Space Wolves: (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8450662&postcount=510) Space Wolves are actually the 'most fair' list out of all the Space Marine variants. They're a solid list. They have no actual 'bad' or 'trap' units. ****
Blood Angels: (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11549896&postcount=162) The only real difference in the List is more options to take Jump Packs, Fast vehicles, and a slight bonus to Deep Striking. Staggeringly similar to Codex Marines otherwise and you wont actually lose much by playing Blood Angels. ****

What if you like one particular unit more than the others? Which Codex would be best for you? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11343165&postcount=1001)

Chaos Space Marines (Chaos Marines, CSMs):
Like Space Marines, but Evil. So, just about everything that applies to Space Marines applies to Chaos Space Marines.
Pros: Chaos Space Marines are slightly more focused on close combat than their Imperial counterparts - but, by no means to they have to be. CSMs are not necessarily 'better' than regular SMs. Just...Different. Each faction has different toys at their disposal.
There are a variety of different ways you can outfit your squads, and it's kind of difficult to find any two CSM armies the same.
Power Armour and Bolters.
Converting your 'Starter Box' Space Marine army to Chaos Marines is fairly easy. Just add spikes and arrows and mutations.

Cons: There are options in the Codex. Too many options some say. It's very easy to get confused on what or what not to get for your squads and characters. And it's even easier to go overboard on wargear and skills and the like (remember; Wargear != Bodies).
CSMs are also a fairly commonly seen army as they cater to the people who want to play Space Marines, but, think that 'Evil is Cool'. Some do consider who they get associated with as a bad thing.
The 'some of everything' approach that a lot of new players have when collecting their armies doesn't really work for Chaos Marines. Most of the time, you're best off going all-out on one or two of the Cult units (below).

Recommendation for Newbies: ****

Chaos Space Marines (Cults):

Contributions supplied by Winterwind, DaedalusMkV and unknowingly by Myatar Panwar

World Eaters/Khorne-based/Beserkers:
Lots of attacks...Aaand...That's about it. Khorne Beserkers have WS 5 and also gain Furious Charge, meaning that when Assaulting, they're hitting and wounding most things on 3s and 2/3s. Their initiative 5 (when Assaulting) helps them a lot when they can strike before most enemies and kill them before they get attacks back. Khorne Berzerkers are fairly good at what they do, but, their individual unit effectiveness is directly proportional to their opponent's armour save.
Meaning, that, for the most part, you need lots of Beserkers. Lots. Khorne Beserker armies also don't function very well without Rhinos, as their only ranged weapons are Pistols. So, this is a lot of currency. On top of which; As they lack ranged weapons, Obliterators, Vindicators and Defilers are almost required for the army.
Khorne Lords and Daemon Princes are considered to be the least efficient. The Daemon Weapon gives you double the chance to hurt yourself. As well as +2D6 Power Weapon attacks is pretty much overkill. You don't really need that many.
Their special character - Kharn - is quite good though.
*** You will need Rhinos. Luckily, Berzerkers come in boxes of 12 (which is more than the other Cult units) and are plastic. Which is good.

Thousand Sons/Tzeentch-based:
All models with the Mark of Tzeentch gain an Invulnerable save. Or, their save gets improved if they already have one. This makes Tzeentch-based lists very tough to kill on the outset.
Onto specialised units; Thousand Sons are a Troop choice that comes with a 4+ invulnerable save, and have AP3 Bolters. Perfect for objective-squatting. This also makes them deadly in ranged firefights - and their invulnerable save makes them hard to kill on the return. Being Slow and Purposeful, it's a good idea to get as much use our their Bolters as you can get.
Thousand Sons also have a Sorcerer as their 'Sergeant'. Chaos Psychic Powers being as they are, this is quite good, as most 'shooting' powers tend to be AP3 or better, or allow no save at all. The Sorcerer also comes with a Force Weapon (add Warptime for fun). Meaning units with an Independent Character kind of need to think twice before Assaulting Thousand Sons units.
However, units without Independent Characters (that you can't target), and other dedicated Assault units will have an easy time. As Thousand Sons are the worst Assault unit in the Codex. But, this isn't saying a whole lot, as they're still Space Marines.
Tzeentch Daemon Princes and Sorcerers are quite good, able to choose and use two powers in the same turn. As well as receiving a better Invulnerable save. Tzeentch Lords are 'okay'. The Tzeentch special character - Ahriman - is pretty good. But, far too overpoints'd.
*** Thousand Sons boxes are expensive. But, you get plenty in a box.

Emperor's Children/Slaanesh-based/Noise Marines:
Marks of Slaanesh add to Initiative. This means pretty much everything in the CSM army will be functioning at Initiative 5. If you're unit holds Power Weapons, you can do a lot of damage before your opponent even gets to attack.
Noise Marines. Are. Amazing. Sonic Blasters are essentially Storm Bolters that get an extra shot if you're standing still. A Blastmaster, is a S8, AP3 Blast weapon that causes Pinning. Do you want yet? Just before Assaulting, the Noise Marine Champion has access to a S5, AP3 Flamer. This will kill things dead. Then Assault, at Initiative 5 (if you're opponent didn't fail their Morale check from you shooting the crap out of them, that is) and you can do some serious damage.
Daemon Princes and Sorcerers gain Lash of Submission. Usually considered one of the more unfair psychic powers as it allows you to move your opponent's models. Where? Into Dangerous Terrain, out of their precious cover, towards your own models into Assault range, or even just moving their Heavy Weapon team out of LoS.
Chaos Lords with Blissgiver are perfect Character killers as with 3+D6 attacks and Initiative 6, they only need to cause one wound (with a 'Power Weapon') to kill pretty much anything they want.
Lucius the Eternal is just as good as - if not better than - Kharn. And doesn't even cost that many points.
**** The Noise Marine box doesn't come with with many Sonic Blasters. They are, however, available in bulk from Mail Order. But, they're not that important. You're really only getting Noise Marines for Blastmasters and Doom Sirens.

Death Guard/Nurgle-based/Plague Marines:
Extra Toughness. Might not seem like much. But, it's (usually) the most expensive Mark for units that can take it for a reason. Works best on models in Terminator Armour or models on Bikes.
Plauge Marines are pretty much exactly the same as regular Chaos Marines, except with Toughness 5 and Feel No Pain. They're extremely hard to kill. On top of which, they have Defensive Grenades. And that's pretty good. Aaand...That's about it actually. Not much can be said about Plague Marines except exactly that.
The Mark of Nurgle is mostly wasted on Daemon Princes as they don't really need the extra Toughness compared to what else they could take and Sorcerers on gain access to Nurgle's Rot, which, again, compared to other powers, isn't that great. As Nurgle's Rot works best in close combat. But, Nurgle Sorcerers only get one psychic power per turn. So, it's Nova, or use the Force Weapon.
On Chaos Lords (especially in Terminator Armour), the Mark of Nurgle is alright. Giving access to a reasonably good Daemon Weapon.
The special character for Death Guard is Typhus. He's pretty damn good. Opinion appears to be divided on whether or not he's worth the points. He has Wind of Chaos, and Nurgle's Rot (otherwise known as Nurgle's Nova). And he auto-passes all psychic tests when using those powers. As well as having the Nurgle-based Daemon Weapon, that also counts as a Force Weapon. As well as Terminator Armour and Defensive Grenades. Whether you like him or not is your choice.
**** Plague Marines are pretty boring for options. But, Toughness 5 and Feel No Pain are really, really good. And the Mark of Nurgle is usually the most expensive Mark for those who would get any real use out of it.

Tyranids ('Nids):
If you think of the movie Alien, or Starship Troopers, Tyranids aren't far off the mark.
Pros: Tyranids are primarily seen as a close combat swarm army. The big Tyranids are extremely customisable and immensely powerful in whatever role you want to give them (but you should only choose one role at a time, remember), and, the smaller Tyranids come in massive numbers designed to make your opponent crap themselves on just how many bodies you can put on the table. The Tyranids also possess one of the most deadly close combat units in the entire game.
A Troops choice that can Infiltrate.
Most of the army is plastic. And, many of the blister models you only need a few of. So, per box, Tyranids are pretty cheap. Also, the Tyranid Battleforce is generally considered what you need, it's definitely recommended by most of the internet that you should get at least two.

Cons: Like CSMs, it's often possible to overload your Monstrous Creatures with too many biomorphs (wargear), which gets expensive. Fast. And, many of the smaller Tyranids are designed for one unchangeable role. The smaller Tyranids can't adapt their units for what they want to do. A Tyranid army is usually seen as very shooty-heavy, or very assault-heavy. It very - extremely rarely - can be both. Often, trying to be both is actually a detriment to the Tyranid army.

Without the bigger Tyranids to back them up, the smaller Tyranids suddenly become a lot more vulnerable, partly because they already have low toughness and high armour saves to begin with. Therefore, you may need to spend a bit of money on the larger, more expensive models.
As a swarm army, box-per-box, you also don't get very many points in each box. This means you'll probably have to end up spending a lot of money to get a decent amount of points onto the table.

Also, like SMs and CSMs, if a 14 year old kid isn't playing SMs or CSMs, then they're playing Tyranids.

Recommendation for Newbies: ** to ****. Depending on how much real-world currency you have to spend. If you don't have a lot of money, you wont be able to field a lot of bodies or acquire the larger Monstrous Creatures. If you can field ~50 Termagants and 50 Hormagaunts per battle and have Monstrous Creatures to back them up...Good.

How to build your Tyranid Army. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12835320&postcount=236)

Eldar:
Elves. In SPAAACE!
Pros: The Eldar boast a 'swiss army knife' army. They have a unit for everything and every unit can do their job well. Each and every unit looks vastly different to every other unit, and are actually supposed to be painted in different colours to each other. So, you have a huge variety of models and colours. If variety is important to you.
Most of the army can Fleet. All Eldar tanks are Fast, Skimmers, and the army contains Eldar Jetbikes (which have different rules to 'normal' Jetbikes). In short, the Eldar army boasts speed and maneuverability.
As with their Infantry, they also have HQ units to fit certain roles. An Autarch can be outfitted to suit almost any battlefield role. Eldar Farseers and Seer Councils are powerful psykers. And the Avatar is a close combat Monster (literally).
A lot of the metal models in the range come in reasonable sized boxes at a (fairly) reasonable price. The good news is, you usually don't need too many of the metal models.
Troops unit choice with the ability to Infiltrate and have Sniper Rifles.
A Wraithlord is one of the scariest models in the game. An absurdly high Toughness and a reasonable armour save. And can kill troops and heavy armour with equal ease. Often at the same time. It's strength 10 and Monstrous Creature status also means it can rip apart tanks even when it's guns are suited to killing Infantry. It even causes Instant Death on most Infantry that attack it. Including a lot of HQ characters.
Wraithguard are like smaller Wraithlords high Strength and Toughness, with a good save and toting around deadly guns.
...It's possible to build an entire army out of Wraithguard and Wraithlords.

Cons: Low 'Elf' Toughness.
The sheer amount of variety can sometimes make it hard to decide which units to take. Especially since some of the units in the Eldar army overlap, but, achieve their role in slightly different ways. And it's these 'slightly different ways' that can make or break the unit depending on your opponent. Some particular units are even useless or near-useless depending on your opponent.
Every unit fills a role. And is unadaptive. You can't manipulate any squad to do anything other than what it was designed to do (except Dire Avengers). And, in smaller point games where you can't afford to take every unit you want, you'll know that you're missing that unit. Because nothing else you have will be able to perform as well as the missing unit.
It's these missing units that make of most of the metal models that will be in your army. You'll need the metal models.
Individual Wraithguard units can often be prohibitively expensive in currency.
Taking too many Wraithlords in your army will have people crying for curdled dairy products. That is; Cheese. In lower point games, just one Wraithlord is enough for "OMG! Cheese!" cries.

Recommendation for Newbies: *** or ****. The Eldar army is an army where it's hard - but not impossible - to go wrong. With such a huge mandatory variety in models, an 'I want every unit' mindset (common in newbies) is actually beneficial to the Eldar army setup.

Wraith teaches you where you should go with your Eldar;
HQ and Elites (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13221962&postcount=781)
Troops and Fast Attack (and Wave Serpent) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13221968&postcount=782)
Heavy Support and Special Characters (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13221980&postcount=783)

Dark Eldar (DE):
Like Eldar, but evil (there's an argument that Dark Eldar are more evil than 'regular Chaos'). But much, much different in play-style from Eldar, than SM's are from CSM's.

Stuff About HQ Choices (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9844642&postcount=252)
Stuff About Everything Else (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9871000&postcount=332)
Stuff About Special Characters (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9886548&postcount=356)
Cheesegear says: "The Dark Eldar one is...Fairly out of date. Sliscus rules. Razorwings kick arse and Venoms are potentially the best Transport in the game - oh man was I wrong on that score!"

Recommendation for Newbies: ** or ***. The Dark Eldar are easy to learn, but hard to master. But, once mastered...The Dark Eldar tend to either win by a significant margin (often by Turn 3 or 4), or lose spectacularly (by Turn 5 or 6).

Tau:
With help provided by Nameless Ghost, Ricky S and Selrahc

Tau are the archetypal alien race. Very progressive technology and a near-utopic society. Also draws several parallels to Mechs and Exosuits - if you like that sort of thing.
Pros: Firepower. You want a really 'Shooty' army? You pick Tau.
Like Necrons and Space Marines, you actually can't go very far wrong with the 'normal' Troop choice; Fire Warriors. They have a decent save of 4+, so they aren't dying en masse to Bolter fire. And they boast the best base-Troop weapon in the game. Yes. Better than Bolters. Easily. Their Transport (Devilfish), similarly, for it's points cost is one of the best in the game. Second only to the Eldar Wave Serpent. You can field a very respectable army fielding nothing but Fire Warriors and Devilfish - just bring some anti-armour weapons.

HQ and Elites choices field some very respectable units in the form of Crisis Suits and Stealth Teams. Effectively your Mechs/Exosuits/Gears. With their ability to take a wide array of guns, on top of their ability to fire at multiple units at the same time, it makes them a very nice support unit for your Fire Warriors. Or, even a front-line squadron if you're brave enough. Crisis Suits also possess Jet Packs, rather than Jump Packs. Which is a really cool bonus to have. As it allows you to move in the Assault phase for move-shoot-move combos like Eldar Jetbikes.

Tau Heavy Support though is what you're really looking at. Broadsides are exactly what their name suggests if you're into Naval Warfare. Broadsides carry Railguns; High-strength guns designed to annihilate whatever they're pointed at. And they do it well too.
This author would be remiss if he didn't also mention Hammerheads. One of the better tanks in the game.

Cons: Tau fold like paper in Assault. What they do in Shooting, they lose out in Assault. Even worse than Necrons. Low Weapon Skill, low Toughness, low Initiative, and no access to Power Weapons or weapons that don't allow saves in Assault. Their decent armour saves them somewhat, but not much.

The Tau also have more than their fair share of 'trap' units. Which, outside of Themed Lists, don't actually do very well.
Like taking Kroot. Kroot are better in Assault than pretty much anything else in the army, but, that's not really saying much. You're best off with more Fire Warriors.
Ethereals are extremely good. But, your opponent will pretty much always target him first. And then he becomes a massive liability for your army.

Like Tyranids and Chaos Marines, it's kind of hard not to go overboard on Wargear options on your Crisis Suits, because they're all just so good. Leaving you fewer points to spend on Fire Warriors. Not only that, Crisis Suits are not Terminators, and don't do real well under fire.

Heavy Support choices are expensive in points. Problem is, if you don't take them, you're seriously missing out on some really impressive firepower options.

Recommendation for Newbs; *** The Battleforce is one of the better ones around, so long as you remember that the Kroot are essentially 'free'; If you didn't pay currency for them, you're under no obligation to use them. Replace them with Fire Warriors as soon as you can. The Tau way of battle also requires a lot of tactics to use well (similar to Eldar), in that you need to prioritise fire and occasionally you have no choice but to sacrifice the odd unit here and there. Tau often play very static roles, unless you shell out extra currency for Devilfish. Which isn't always the best thing in the world. And no. There really isn't a way around being bad at Assault. The best thing you can hope for is that you've shot the crap out of your enemy before they get there.

Ricky S tells us how to get started for the Greater Good (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13056559&postcount=581).

Chaos Daemons (Daemons, CDs)
Daemons. They come out of the Warp to eat your face. That's about all you need to know.
Pros: Chaos Daemons, as an army, possess some of the more powerful units in the game. Strong HQs, strong Elites, reasonably impressive Fast Attack, and some strong Heavy Support in the form of Soul Grinders and Daemon Princes.
The entire army is Invulnerable and sports Eternal Warrior and Fearless on every single unit except the Soul Grinder. But, as a Daemon, the Soul Grinder gets some pretty impressive things on its own. So, Power Weapons and other low AP ranged weapons don't really have any extra effect on Daemons. Your opponent is basically wasting points.
Very powerful Assault army if you can get it there. It only takes three or four models to wipe out an opposing unit of 10 even on a fairly average day.
Very fast army. A number of Beasts/Cavalry and Jump Infantry units, and the whole army Deep Strikes.
High diversity and distinctive imagery of all it's units.
Most of the army is plastic (or soon will be), which keeps currency costs low.

Cons: *Deep Breath* Well, deployment. Before any game even starts, you're at a disadvantage. You can't actually plan with Chaos Daemons. Before the game starts, divide your army in half. Half your army arrives on Turn 1 via Deep Strike, and the rest of the army trickles in over the rest of the game.

...The really annoying part, is that you don't actually get to pick which half you get on the first turn. The only way to make a 'plan' with Daemons, is to have symmetrical halves, so, no matter what comes down, you've got what you want. Which means, all that diversity in models goes out the window as you now need to duplicate every unit. Leading to 'cookie cutter' units. Which nobody really likes - unless you want that.

Yeah, the entire army arrives via Deep Strike and reserves. It's both good and bad, it's more often bad. Since Chaos Daemons have a real lack of shooting. The opposite of Tau, who have low Assault. But, due to Deep Striking, and the disallowance of Assault, your army will get shot at before you get to Assault with your units.

This is solved by 'aggressive Deep Striking', which is ignoring terrain difficulties, and deploying as close to your enemy as you possibly can so you can Assault next turn. This means that you could take casualties from Difficult Terrain, and following Shooting phase from your opponent. To do this, you need lots of models, which costs currency.

The Codex - like Eldar - has a higher-than-normal amount of unit redundancy. Some of those diverse units that you like, just wont be taken because there are other units that can do the same job, better. Like Necrons, Daemons' Elites and Fast Attack choices are mostly just more powerful versions of the Troops units. Because of this reason, Daemons' Troops are pretty lackluster in comparison to everything else. Except that you have to take Troops...well, because they're your Troops. Which is even worse because those Troops units aren't exactly cheap in points.

With such a low save, Fearless is quite often a hindrance. And, unlike Orks or Tyranids, Daemons don't usually have the numbers to keep up a sustained losing-assault. But, Daemons don't usually lose Assault (even with such small unit sizes). So, you've got that.

Recommendation for Newbies: * The deployment rules are like nothing a new player would be able to deal with. Not to mention the complexity and tactics that you need with a Chaos Daemons army in order to win.
** If you really like the imagery and painting/conversion opportunities that Chaos Daemons presents.
Sadly, Daemons are more Cons than Pros unless you build your list a specific way. Which you - a new player - probably wont do.

Grey Knights (GKs):
Super-Massive-Long-Posts-of-DOOOOOOM provided by Cheesegear.
- HQ Choices (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12434419&postcount=922)
- Elite Choices (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12451906&postcount=973)
- Troops, Transports, Fast Attack and Heavy Choices (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12467694&postcount=1018)
- Special Characters (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12488431&postcount=1052)

Recommendation for Newbies: ** or ***
On the one hand, Grey Knights are very hard to build properly. There's lots of weird and wonderful wargear and squads to choose from and they all look so good.... But it's easy to pick all the wrong ones, for all the wrong reasons, and end up paying through the nose for the privelage.

On the other: Get the balance right, pick the right units with the right wargear and send them to do the right tasks, and they can easily break almost any other army in the game apart with surprisingly little effort. Grey Knights are tremendously powerful if you use them correctly. They are utterly unforgiving if you get it wrong.

The Necrons:
Tomb Kings IN SPAAAAAAAACE! Legions of soulless, undying automatons cruising around the galaxy, atomizing everything in their path. Except for the senile, insane ones, who invite you to tea and then atomize you after you've finished the biscuits. What's not to like?

What Winterwind Thinks About Necrons. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12212061&postcount=219)
What Cheesegear Thinks About Necrons. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12253200&postcount=402)
What Cheesegear Thinks About Necron Special Characters. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12259949&postcount=435)

Recommendation for Newbies: ***
Necrons are tough, with good armour and good guns, so it's hard to really use them "badly". It requires a bit of a knack to get the best out of the units in the book though, as well as needing a very careful understanding of their many special rules work and interact.

Orks: *** to ***** depending on how much currency you have (horde army). Extra points because it's the more useful of the AoBR Starter Armies. So, a decent Ork army actually comes stock in the 'newbie box'.

Imperial Guard (IG): * to ***** depending on how much currency you have. A ***** IG army is the single-most expensive army in the entire game. Even more than the old, fully-metal Daemonhunters.
About Imperial Guard Tanks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8434669&postcount=476).

Still to come;
Imperial Guard [2009], Witch Hunters [2003], Sisters of Battle [2011 - WD edition] and Orks [2009].
These armies I have lot of experience with. Send PMs if you believe you have advice that I might leave out.

Actually looking for, or things I can't write myself;
More General Advice (I think I've covered most of it).

SEND PMs. Don't Derail Thread.
Please submit suggestions for additions to the guide to my PM box as to keep from derailing the thread. Also, try and keep it general. Specifics can be delved into after the aspiring player has picked an army.

This hobby breeds opinions like no tomorrow. Please read. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11233427&postcount=624)

---

Previous Threads
* Warhammer 40K Tactics (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29297)
* -II- Tactics for the Tactics God (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101608)
* III - Hats for the Hat Throne (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119333&highlight=Warhammer)
* IV - The Enemy of Your Enemy is Still Your Enemy. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133984&highlight=Warhammer)
* V: Everyone Is On Fire. Some Moreso Than Others. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=141538&highlight=Warhammer)
* VI: Chaos Bringing Eternal Darkness? I brought my flashlight. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149084&highlight=Warhammer)
* VII: Common Sense is not RAW. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156779&highlight=Warhammer)
* VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Maths (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=165820)
* IX: "Mech Is King? I Never Voted For It!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=175990)
* X: "Everybody expects the Inquisition!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=184538)
* XI: "More Threads than your Tactical Squad has Room for!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=193025)
* XII: "Now in Rapid Fire range!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=199750)
* Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"
* Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIV: "Pray for 6s!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=208838)

Tychris1

2012-02-10, 09:19 PM

Hootman

2012-02-10, 10:22 PM

But I'm still upside-down.

Can't argue with that.

So, in keeping with the new thread title, I'd like to improve my orky 'ead-stompin' skills, and I'd appreciate it if people would offer advice based on what they've done or seen done with Da Boyz that really worked (or failed hilariously, those are good too).

Currently I've got the following:
Big Boyz
2 Warbosses (AoBR)
1 Big Mek, converting from another AoBR Warboss, WIP
10 Nobz, give or take. Various equipment.
9 Nob Warbikers, converted from Deffkoptas. Various equipment.

Boyz & Grots
60 Choppa Boyz
40 Shoota Boyz
6 Big Shootaz
2 Burna Boyz
8 Kommandos + Boss Snikrot
10 Grotz with 1 Runtherd
1 Grot Tank or Killa Kan
1 Trukk

Builds/Conversions Sitting Around Unfinished
3 Grot Tanks
3 Burna Boyz
6 Biker Boyz. For reference, some of my Biker Nobz can be Boyz if I say they are.
1 Meganob, pieces of which were sacrificed to the glory of my Nob Bikers, but I could always rebuild the rest of him to be awesome.
4 Warbuggies
1 Battlewagon (with 3 Papercraft BW's hanging around as well)

And piles of bits, many of them ork, including all sorts of arms and bodies and weapons. I'm a bit short on legs, but I'll make do.

I'm perfectly willing to buy or build (preferably build) anything I might need to make the army work, and I know that Orks are FAR from Tier 1, but if anyone had any ideas to at least compete on the same levels as Vanilla Marines and Necrons, I'd appreciate it.

Teln

2012-02-10, 10:35 PM

Squark

2012-02-11, 12:22 AM

More seriously, does your Big Mek have a Kustom Force Field? A 5+ cover save beats a 6+ T-shirt any day.

Hey! Guard wear T-shirts! Those are 5+!

I'm not sure what we should call a 6+

Anyway. New Thread!

Now, Relevant Discussion. Keep in mind any space wolves army I discuss, until I say otherwise, is purely theoretical. But, anyway, what do you guys think of this as the initial force?

[10 Gray Hunters (2 Plasmaguns)
10 Gray Hunters (2 Meltaguns) <== Drop pod here?
5 Wolf Scouts (Wargear?)]<- Battleforce
Space Wolves Rune Priest
5 Devastators Long Fangs

Renegade Paladin

2012-02-11, 12:39 AM

Hey! Guard wear T-shirts! Those are 5+!
Except Catachans, who have 5+ MANLY ABS. :smalltongue:

Hootman

2012-02-11, 01:55 AM

From what you've posted, you have just enough models to pull this (http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1180087_Ork_Datasheet_-_The_Green_Tide.pdf) off. :smallwink:

More seriously, does your Big Mek have a Kustom Force Field? A 5+ cover save beats a 6+ T-shirt any day.

:smallbiggrin: Wow, that's a lot of boyz in one unit. I'd love to field that.

And yes, of course, the Big Mek has a KFF. However, I've not had much luck with it protecting my vehicles (despite the save being 4+). My boys do benefit a little once they've been kicked out of their Battlewagons, but since they only hop out on purpose when they're going to assault, and the KFF doesn't work on units locked in assault...I've honestly been considering not running it. Maybe field a Shokk Attack Gun instead--then I have no reason to expect victory, and can concentrate on goofing around and Zoink!-ing into trouble.

[Space Wolves List]

That looks pretty good to me. Granted, I'm no Space Wolf afficionado, but I know what their strengths are. I believe one of the better set-ups for Wolf Scouts is this:

Wolf Scouts 5, 115pts
-Mark of the Wulfen, Meltagun, Power Weapon

As much as I love my Drop Pod, I would suggest you look into using more traditional transport first, i.e., a pair of Rhinos to ferry your Hunters into the fray. If you don't own any yet, I would definitely suggest you buy Razorbacks, because you can just leave the big weapons off when they're pretending to be Rhinos.

Cheesegear

2012-02-11, 03:44 AM

Been thinking of making an illegal all monstrous creature tyranid list. It'd be for a joke game me and an Ork friend of mine plan on playing. He'd roll out his Stompa and some nobs or tankbustas and I'd roll out a Trygon Prime/Swarmlord/OOE/Tyrannofex. Should I get rid of the prime for another Carnifex/Tyrannofex or is it fine the way it is?

Do Stompas have D-weapons? If they do all your MCs will turn to crap. I don't really know what to take. What's the points limit? Is there an FO Chart or not? Is this for Apocalypse or do you just need to put an equivalent amount of points to a Stompa on the table? What's happening?

I'm perfectly willing to buy or build (preferably build) anything I might need to make the army work, and I know that Orks are FAR from Tier 1, but if anyone had any ideas to at least compete on the same levels as Vanilla Marines and Necrons, I'd appreciate it.

I can't comment on what you've got already, seems about right. I'm uncertain how I would incorporate what you're planning to build into your current list. But here's some ideas;

2 Warbosses + 2 Bike Nob Squads.
2 Big Meks with KFFs and as many Boyz as you can handle.

As many Lootas as you can possibly fit. If you aren't using Bike Nobz (some people don't, anymore), have 30 causes a lot of problems for most armies.

Stormboyz. With Zagstruk. Never without.
Lots of Koptas.
Lots and lots (minimum 9) Killa Kans. Only if you've got the two Big Meks.

Zorg

2012-02-11, 06:20 AM

Wraith

2012-02-11, 07:19 AM

Hey! Guard wear T-shirts! Those are 5+!

I'm not sure what we should call a 6+

Shirts versus Skins? :smallbiggrin:

Anyways, I'm posting the 'finished' version of the Glossary here. If it never gets mentioned again and sinks into obscurity, so be it, but if it proves useful then at least it's on the front page and thus easy to find.

Also, rereading the OP made me realise that I forgot to add the definition for 'Cheese'. A gross oversight, considering how our attitudes tend to go in these threads.... :smallwink:

Alpha-strike
Verb; To effectively win the game in the first turn by inflicting a massively disproportionate amount of damage on the enemy from which they cannot recover. Can refer either to the tactic specifically, or as a theme around which an army could be built.

'Ard Boys
Noun; A type of formal Tournament where the kid gloves are well and truley 'off'. Whereas an ordinary Tournament expects every player to try to win, an 'Ard Boys tournament expects every player to take advantage of every unit, ability and rule to it's most merciless extreme in the clamour for victory; you will find no 'experimental' lists and there will be no sub-par units in play, only those with a proven kill-ratio. Generally considered to be the pinnacle of tounament play in terms of difficulty and tactical acumen.

ATSKNF
Abbreviation; And They Shall Know No Fear - special rule common to most kinds of Space Marines.

BBB
Abbreviation; Big Black Book, ie; the 5th Edition's Main Rule Book.

Blendernaught
Abbreviation; A Blood Angels Dreadnought that is equipped with two Blood Talons, due to the exponential way in which their attacks can accumulate and thus kill (or 'blend') a large number of enemy models in a single turn.

Cheese
Noun or Adjective; A reference to an army or unit as 'cheese' is a criticism against how 'unfair' it is perceived to be.
While the item in question might be legal according to the rules of the game and the appropriate Codex, being 'cheesey' suggests that the unit is considered 'too powerful' (eg: it has a superior statline for no perceived extra cost, it costs a lot less than another unit that can achieve similar effects, or has a special ability that is very easy to use but very difficult for your opponent to counteract) or - in the case of an army list - that the owner has forsaken all fluff and thematic preferences in order to include only the 'most powerful' units available.

Note: Being considered 'cheese' are often highly subjective, and it's most common use is as an insult. Please be careful not to use it without good reason, and certainly not just because you were beaten by a better general and deriding his well-crafted army makes you feel better.

Crunch
Noun; General term to refer to the rules and mechanics of the game as printed in the Rule Books. If a situation is described as 'crunchy', it means that it's resolution relies heavily (if not, soley) upon interpretation and application of the games' rules mechanics and taking nothing else into account (See also R.a.W.).

"Earn Back Your Points Cost"
Verb (Archaic); In previous editions of 40k, the victor of a game could be decided by Victory Points - for every 100 points of your enemy that you destroyed (or was Falling Back when the game ended), you gained 1 point and whichever player had the most would win the game. To say that a unit would "earn back their points" was an approximation of potential for that unit to kill a higher points value than the unit itself had cost, and thus earn a greater return for their owning player. In the current edition this expression is no longer applied literally, however it still remains in use as a generic way of describing a unit that will kill enough opponents or claim enough objectives to "earn" it's place in an army list, as opposed to one that will be expected to turn out an average or sub-par performance. Units that are more expensive or less effective would be said to "fail to earn back it's points cost".

Exchange Rate
Shorthand; The expected ratio of points that a unit costs, versus what it could reasonably be expected to accomplish (usually a direct point-to-point comparison of enemy models killed). A unit with a poor exchange rate is either too expensive, or hasn't killed enough enemies/seized enough objectives to justify it's points cost which could have been more efficiently spent on other units.

Fluff
Noun; The 'story' behind the game that has little-to-no baring on the actual rules of the game. Also known as 'flavour text' or 'back story'. Polar opposite of 'crunch'.

FNP
Abbreviation; Feel No Pain. Universal special rule, detailed in the Main Rule Book.

FOC
Abbreviation: Force Organisation Chart.

Footslog
Verb; To make your troops move on foot (usually long distances) without the aid of Dedicated Transports, Jump Packs, Deep Striking or other similar tactics.

Force Multiply
Verb; A unit (often HQ choice) that serves to make other units better in ways other than just adding to their firepower or close combat resolution, such as by making them Scoring units or making their ordinary special rules more efficient. They make your army "greater than the sum of it's parts".

Green Tide
Noun; An Ork army that consists of a large number of infantry.

Grimdark
Adjective; Derived from the opening quote of the 5th Edition Rulebook, "In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war". Used as a label for any of the particularly depressing and/or outrageously morbid themes and scenes that occur in the 40k fluff. Often cited in parody, the phrase may or may not be a criticism depending on both 1) the author of the piece of fluff in question and 2) the position of the author of the post who cites the subject as being grimdark.
EG: "A crumbling Empire ruled by a corpse is under attack from it's own traitorous superhuman soldiers, soulless automotons whose only motivation is the annihilation of life even as a concept, an innummerable horde of mega-evolved Space Locusts, a psychopathic race of bloodthirsty fungus and the very denizens of Hell itself whose least unpleasant God-Devil eats Hope.... And it's about to get worse? How very grimdark."

Magic Hat
Noun; Usually a Psychic Hood, though often used as shorthand for any piece of wargear or special rules that are used to negate enemy Psychic Powers.

Mathhammer
Noun; The art of trying to predict how a game will go by employing statistics.
EG: If your unit has 20 close combat attacks, with a 50% chance of hitting and 50% chance of wounding, you will be expecting to kill 5 enemy models and thus determining whether or not this will be a 'good' tactical move to make.

Mech
Abbreviation; Shorthand for 'Mechanised', which is any army list that makes extensive use of vehicles, Walkers or anything else with an Armour Value rather than a Toughness stat.

MEQ
Abbreviation; Marine EQuivalent. Any army, the majority of whose units are approximately T4 with 3+ armour saves. Just like Space Marines.

MRB
Abbreviation; Main Rule Book. See also: 'BBB'

MSU
Abbreviation; Multiple Small Units.

Plaserback
Abbreviation; A popular variant of the Space Marine Razorback tank, which has been equipped with a Lascannon & Twin-Linked Plasmagun turret.

R.a.I.
Abbreviation; "Rules As Intended". To interpret the games' rules mechanics in such a way as to make allowances for 'unwritten' situations, or to allow for targets that seems 'fair' or 'sensible' and yet are not specifically mentioned by the literal word of the rules (See also: R.a.W.)

R.a.W.
Abbreviation; "Rules as Written". To follow the games' rules literally, without interpretation or account for their 'intended' purpose, whether or not such an action makes sense or is perceived as 'fair' according to the R.a.I.

Rifleman
Abbreviation; A Dreadnought that is equipped with two Assault Cannons, two Autocannons, or a mixed combination of the two, to be used for long ranged support.

S&P
Abbreviation; Slow & Purposeful. Universal special rule, detailed in the Main Rule Book.

Spam
Verb or Suffix; To use the same unit or piece of wargear multiple times in a single army. Named in honour of a particularly popular 'Monty Python' joke.
EG: "To win this battle, I am going to spam Plasma guns in all of my units. This army is mostly Plasmaspam."

Suicide-
Prefix; A unit that is sent to fulfill a specific task, after which it's owned fully expects it to be destroyed, can be known as "Suicide-". Because apparently, in the grimdarkness of the 41st Millenium, "Kamikaze-" is considered anti-PC. :smallwink:
EG: Very often appears applied to Space Marine Sternguard ("Suicide-Sternguard") equipped with a large number of combi-meltas arriving via a Drop Pod in the midst of the enemy army and splitting into two combat squads, with the purpose of taking down priority targets (usually two vehicles). Almost guaranteed to inflict a great deal of damage in the turn in which they arrive and - due to their precarious position in the middle of the enemy deployment zone - almost guaranteed to be wiped out soon after.

[u]Tailoring
Verb; To build an army in order to defeat a specific opponent. See the associated article (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10373704&postcount=571) for more details.

[u]Theoryhammer
Noun; Akin to Mathhammer, Theoryhammer essentially the measure of a unit or army's effectiveness 'on paper'. Taking into consideration all of the units available in the Codex, the idea is to imagine a number of different scenarios and comparing how well a chosen army will cope with them in a plausible way; strong armies are generally the ones that can handle the most number of different scenarios in an optimum number of units or points cost. Similar, a strong unit is one that can remain effective even when faced with a variety of different situations.
The danger of theoryhammer is that it often gets stretched to extremes in order to falsely declare an army 'good'. For example, Codex Eldar can provide a different unit that can cope with any situation that the enemy can be expected to create, and thus is theoretically a good army - however, in order for this to be true one would have to include at least one of each unit (which would cost thousands of points to play and hundreds of dollars to collect and paint) and is not legal according to the FOC. As such, while Eldar are in theory a good army, theoryhammer can be applied badly to make them seem better than they really are.

-Wing
Suffix; 'Deathwing' is a specific type of Space Marine army that revolves around taking as many Terminators as possible and making them Scoring units, via a force multiplying HQ Choice. In honour of this, any army built to this format is often known as "(Key Component)wing".
EG: Draigowing (An army comprising of lots of Terminators, led by force-multipling HQ Choice Kaldor Draigo), Loganwing (Space Wolves, led by Logan Grimnir)

Addendum: One notable exception from the above is "Nipplewing" - a variant army list created using Codex: Blood Angels that comprises mostly of Sanguinary Guard and is usually led by Commander Dante. So called as a combined parody of the "-wing" suffix and two unusually prominent features found on Sanguinary Guard models.....

Wonder Twins (The)
Noun; Affectionate nickname for Eldrad Ulthuan and Prince Yriel - Special Characters from Codex: Eldar - especially when fielded in both HQ slots at the same time. Can sometimes refer to a pair of Farseers in the same role. Named in honour of a children's cartoon featuring a pair of pointy-eared superheroes who use magic powers to save the day (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38VbvKmFx2I), and as a reference to the characters' generally high rate of effectiveness and reliance on 'magic' (ie: psychic powers) for success.

WYSIWYG
Abbreviation; What You See Is What You Get (pronounced 'Wizzywig'). Detailed in the Main Rule Book, this refers to how closely a model physically resembles the equipment that has been assigned to it in the army list. High-profile Tournaments often insist upon 100% WYSIWYG accuracy.

-Zilla
Suffix; An army list that makes use of multiple Monstrous Creatures. (Usually this applies to Tyranid armies - colloquially known as 'Nidzilla - as they have access to a large number of such units, though a few other armies can also attempt it.)

Borgh

2012-02-11, 07:30 AM

I'm still happy with my bit of the OP, its pretty rare for me to be content with something I wrote so I'm happy.

Tychris1

2012-02-11, 08:40 AM

Do Stompas have D-weapons? If they do all your MCs will turn to crap. I don't really know what to take. What's the points limit? Is there an FO Chart or not? Is this for Apocalypse or do you just need to put an equivalent amount of points to a Stompa on the table? What's happening?

It's a default stompa so it has no D weapons. The points limit is 1,000 for him and 1,200 for me (Due to the nature of Titans of being super ****ing hard). We've decided to throw the FO chart out of the window and only need to put down the points limit for our units (No apocalypse). Deployment type is spearhead and the objective of the game is to destroy the Stompa. I win by killing it, he wins if it isn't dead. The only rules we have to abide by for Units is that I can only take Monstrous Creatures and he can only take a Stompa and 1 squad of his choice.

Tome

2012-02-11, 08:42 AM

Stompa vs Nidzilla. Sounds interesting. :smallbiggrin:

Be sure to let us know how it goes Tychris.

Borgh

2012-02-11, 09:55 AM

Are crusching claws still usefull? bring crushing claws. Or those Forgeworld scary things.

Renegade Paladin

2012-02-11, 10:04 AM

:smallbiggrin: Wow, that's a lot of boyz in one unit. I'd love to field that.

And yes, of course, the Big Mek has a KFF. However, I've not had much luck with it protecting my vehicles (despite the save being 4+). My boys do benefit a little once they've been kicked out of their Battlewagons, but since they only hop out on purpose when they're going to assault, and the KFF doesn't work on units locked in assault...I've honestly been considering not running it. Maybe field a Shokk Attack Gun instead--then I have no reason to expect victory, and can concentrate on goofing around and Zoink!-ing into trouble.
Our last local tournament was won by an Ork player with a Shokk Attack Gun. Perfect score, too; he picked up the secondary and tertiary objectives in every game. And he's not really a good player; his dice were just absurdly hot that day. :smallsigh:

Squark

2012-02-11, 10:08 AM

As much as I love my Drop Pod, I would suggest you look into using more traditional transport first, i.e., a pair of Rhinos to ferry your Hunters into the fray. If you don't own any yet, I would definitely suggest you buy Razorbacks, because you can just leave the big weapons off when they're pretending to be Rhinos.

The reason I chose the drop pod was simple. It's already in the battleforce. :smallbiggrin:

Sila Prirode

2012-02-11, 10:35 AM

Our last local tournament was won by an Ork player with a Shokk Attack Gun. Perfect score, too; he picked up the secondary and tertiary objectives in every game. And he's not really a good player; his dice were just absurdly hot that day. :smallsigh:

In my group we have always called it Shokk Attack Fun, because there hasn't been a bad game with that thing on board. :smallbiggrin:
On more serious note, You don't have to have really good luck with dices, average scores work just as well. It's just a matter of not-rolling-that-numbers, which depend on situation. It's a lot like psykers, you know how they roll 11 or 12 leadership just at that "you're kidding me?" moment?

Zorg

2012-02-11, 10:40 AM

It's a default stompa so it has no D weapons.

D'oh, I had a complait brain-fart earlier. Stompas have a Titan CCW by default, so if it's not knocked out their close combat attacks are at StrD.

LeSwordfish

2012-02-11, 11:43 AM

So how about this:

HQ
Coteaz 100

Ordo Xenos Inquisitor Rourke 88
Rad Grenades, dude.
Combi Bolter-melta
Psyker- Force Sword, hammerhand
Power Armour (Odds are he'll be diving into the fray to make use of the hammerhand and grenades)

ELITES
Purifier squad -198
2 extra purifiers
2 Psycannons
5 Halberds

Vindicare assassin-145

Techpriest, or extra purifier squad here?

TROOPS
Henchman squad- 140
2 Jokaero
10 warriors
-Storm Bolters

Henchman squad- 140
2 Jokaero
10 warriors
-Storm Bolters

Henchman squad- 140
2 Jokaero
10 warriors
-Storm Bolters

Main problem i'll have with these guys is making the Jokaero look anything resembling decent.

Henchman squad- 125
3 Crusaders
9 Warriors
-3 Meltaguns
-6 Storm bolters

Henchman squad- 125
3 Crusaders
9 Warriors
-3 Meltaguns
-6 Storm bolters

And then either a strike squad or more, CC-orientated henchmen. Or terminators, because terminators.

FAST ATTACK

Interceptors, if anything? If i use Stormravens, i'm proxying in my inquisitorial vendetta. I hate the Stormraven model. It looks like a bucket with wings.

HEAVY SUPPORT

Again, i have no idea. I don't really want vehicles too much. They'd just get shot to bits because of so few.

Total so far: 1201 points.

Is this any good? A techpriest and a strike squad could round that off nicely, i reckon. Or splurge it on transport vehicles.

It's worth noting that my metagame is, well, thick. Two boards worth of terrain were glued onto one, meaning we have one super-awesome board where you have to set up your vehicles on the skysheild landing pad, because there is literally nowhere else big enough*, and one board with whatever trees we can pinch from the fantasy players. Its pretty much "all cover or none".

*I tell a lie, but i do recall running into problems when every road was filled with a immobilised chimera.

Timberwolf

2012-02-11, 12:00 PM

Well, a Stomraven never goes badly with close range henchmen squads but Chimeras may be better for this. I don't know what they cost but you should be able to get at least 4 in and have a bit of change from 1500 points. Then 2 of the monkey squads sets up their deckchairs on an objective while the Purifiers and the melta henchman and the remaining squad with monkeys goes and blows things up. 4 vehicles is quite enough to not lose them all at once. Of course, I'm not sure if Purifiers can use Chimeras, that would be a job for someone with the codex to hand.

LeSwordfish

2012-02-11, 12:30 PM

Of course, I'm not sure if Purifiers can use Chimeras, that would be a job for someone with the codex to hand.

Purifiers can only ride a rhino or razorback.

Four chimeras sets me back 120 points. So i could take them and a strike squad. That really is going to cut into my budget, currency-wise though. A stormraven-proxy and two rhinos is better, but likely less effective. Not to mention the rhinos are too small for my henchmen squads.

Ninjaman

2012-02-11, 01:05 PM

Hey! Guard wear T-shirts! Those are 5+!

I'm not sure what we should call a 6+

Tank tops?

LeSwordfish

2012-02-11, 01:10 PM

Tank tops?

Cycle helmets?

TechnoScrabble

2012-02-11, 01:19 PM

Cycle helmets?

Lucky Superman underwear?

Winterwind

2012-02-11, 02:05 PM

Purifiers can only ride a rhino or razorback.Not quite exact. They can ride a Chimera just fine, they just can't start the game inside one, as the only way to get Chimeras is to buy them as Dedicated Transports for Inquisitorial Henchmen squads. You can, however, get a Chimera for a Henchmen squad, and have it start empty right next to the Purifiers, having them enter it in their first turn.

In fact, even Terminators can ride in Chimeras, as Chimeras lack the special rule of Rhinos and Razorbacks that prevents them from doing so.

Cheesegear

2012-02-11, 06:10 PM

It's a default stompa so it has no D weapons. The points limit is 1,000 for him and 1,200 for me (Due to the nature of Titans of being super ****ing hard).

D'oh, I had a complait brain-fart earlier. Stompas have a Titan CCW by default, so if it's not knocked out their close combat attacks are at StrD.

In that case, you don't want to be hitting it with in Close Combat until you take out that weapon. Otherwise every hit is one kill. And for MCs, that's really, really bad.

You'll need Harpies or Tyrannofii for the S10 Venom Cannons, and just pepper it until you get rid of that Titan Weapon, then go in for attacks. Other than that, go to town. Carnifii are the only reliable Anti-Armour you have and they'll also be one-shotting Nobz so get as many of those as you can. You'll need at least one Tyrant or Trygon Prime for the Synapse if you don't want Instinctive Behaviour all the time.

Ceridan

2012-02-13, 07:54 PM

evisiron

2012-02-13, 08:51 PM

So I’m looking for feedback on the list I’m working on.

Honestly, it's seems a little all over the place. There is some good combat stuff in there, but not enough for a heavy hitting assault as it is, and while there are units that can shoot, they aren't going to shoot awfully well.

Also, you have 2 heavy vehicles that carry the bulk of your force. With 2 lucky shots, your assault force could end up having to march across the field.

If you want to pursue that route, it might be worth investing in a Librarian for Shield to give your vehicles a bit more protection. I would also recommend swapping the tactical squad for something more assault focused, even if it is just another Assault squad in a transport.
Also, for fewer points you could swap the Sternguard for Honour Guard with 4 actual Melta guns and jump packs. They have their own Priest bubble, are 1 less Kill Point and can deep strike in without risking the Drop pod "show up on turn 1 when there is no-one to shoot at" syndrome.

Ricky S

2012-02-14, 07:40 AM

Alright my fellow 40k addicts, there is a 2000pt tournament on the 18th. The tournament is three rounds, each round featuring one of the three missions from the main rule book. So I’m looking for feedback on the list I’m working on.

Ok its looks like its all over the place. I am used to seeing very spammy lists with multiple units of the same thing but that doesnt necessarily mean your list wont work.

What models do you currently have? Have you had any practise games if you already own them?

I would change a few things in your current set up anyway.

-Drop all the Infernus Pistols, they are really expensive for a single 6 inch shot. You can have heaps of meltas which are cheaper and better.
-Drop the deathwind Missile Launcher and the powerfist. If 5 guys are assaulted they are going to be killed especially if you are using them as suicide sternguard which it seems to be what you are doing.
-Make the scout squad one unit, you can always combat squad it later if you need them to capture more points.

By dropping these things you have more points and can afford another unit of scouts or something else. Bodies over equipment every time. The main thing though is to have practise games. Even if you have a subpar list as long as you know how it works you can win. That is why armies like tau or orks can still win at tournaments because the player is very familiar with them.

If you want to win for sure I would take an army something like this. It has a heap of models and the power to take down anything the enemy has.

-Librarian - 100pts
-Assault Squad, 2x melta, powerfist, Rhino - 250pts
-Assault Squad, 2x melta, powerfist, Rhino - 250pts
-Assault Squad, 2x melta, powerfist, Rhino - 250pts
-Assault Squad, 2x melta, powerfist, Rhino - 250pts
-Assault Squad, 2x melta, powerfist, Rhino - 250pts
-Assault Squad, 2x melta, powerfist, Rhino - 250pts
-Devastator Squad, 4x Missile Launcher - 130pts
-Devastator Squad, 4x Missile Launcher - 130pts
-Devastator Squad, 4x Missile Launcher - 130pts
1990pts

Of course having an army list like this would cost about $1000 (Aus).

Winterwind

2012-02-14, 11:02 AM

So a friend of mine expressed interest in the Tyranids a long time ago, but was unable to spare the time and money to get into the hobby. Hence, ever since, I have been giving him a mini here, a few minis there, on all sorts of occasions, painted myself.

Since his birthday is coming up, I wanted to give him a pack of Termagaunts. Now the issue: What is the proper weapon to give to Termagaunts? Leaving them with fleshborers allows for them to be used as Tervigon spawns, but does it make sense to equip Termagaunts that actually start on the table with costlier weapons? Devourers, for instance? Or should I just go with fleshborers instead?

Cheesegear

2012-02-14, 04:42 PM

Now the issue: What is the proper weapon to give to Termagaunts? Leaving them with fleshborers allows for them to be used as Tervigon spawns, but does it make sense to equip Termagaunts that actually start on the table with costlier weapons? Devourers, for instance? Or should I just go with fleshborers instead?

Does he have Tervigons? Is Tervigon spawning an option? Fleshborers are good for when you have 5 Tervigons, or, at the very least, when you need to spam three squads of 10 so you can grab three Tervigons and you need to keep everything cheap.

But, you are right, the only other decent option is the Devourer. Yes, AP- is bad. But you're firing triple the shots (at 'Assault' too) at 18" which means you're putting out more firepower than Marines. If you aren't exploiting the Codex for five Tervigons, then a squad with Devourers is a solid Infantry block that sits home and Scores.

Devourers or Fleshborers. There are no other choices.

Wraith

2012-02-14, 05:00 PM

As I have always understood Termagaunts (and if you'll forgive a little bit of hyperbole).....

As a Troops choice, they're not as good as Genestealers. You can spend more points on them, give them extra weapons and biomorphs (even 'wargear', in the days before they were biomorphs) and then they'll be as expensive as Genestealers..... But still not as good. :smalltongue:

As such, there are only 2 good ways to use Termagaunts: the first is "Lots", as they die in droves but can put out a huge number of shots anyway, which is probably the best way to deal with good armour saves (ie: make them roll it a whole heap of times).
The second is "Cheap" because that, rather usefully, helps you achieve "Lots". :smallbiggrin:

Ceridan

2012-02-14, 05:45 PM

Ok its looks like its all over the place. I am used to seeing very spammy lists with multiple units of the same thing but that doesnt necessarily mean your list wont work.

What models do you currently have? Have you had any practise games if you already own them?

I would change a few things in your current set up anyway.

-Drop all the Infernus Pistols, they are really expensive for a single 6 inch shot. You can have heaps of meltas which are cheaper and better.
-Drop the deathwind Missile Launcher and the powerfist. If 5 guys are assaulted they are going to be killed especially if you are using them as suicide sternguard which it seems to be what you are doing.
-Make the scout squad one unit, you can always combat squad it later if you need them to capture more points.

By dropping these things you have more points and can afford another unit of scouts or something else. Bodies over equipment every time. The main thing though is to have practise games. Even if you have a subpar list as long as you know how it works you can win. That is why armies like tau or orks can still win at tournaments because the player is very familiar with them.

If you want to win for sure I would take an army something like this. It has a heap of models and the power to take down anything the enemy has.

-Librarian - 100pts
-Assault Squad, 2x melta, powerfist, Rhino - 250pts
-Assault Squad, 2x melta, powerfist, Rhino - 250pts
-Assault Squad, 2x melta, powerfist, Rhino - 250pts
-Assault Squad, 2x melta, powerfist, Rhino - 250pts
-Assault Squad, 2x melta, powerfist, Rhino - 250pts
-Assault Squad, 2x melta, powerfist, Rhino - 250pts
-Devastator Squad, 4x Missile Launcher - 130pts
-Devastator Squad, 4x Missile Launcher - 130pts
-Devastator Squad, 4x Missile Launcher - 130pts
1990pts

Of course having an army list like this would cost about $1000 (Aus).

WYSIWYG means the army you proposed is beyond my doing given the time frame and the cost.:smalleek: Any other suggestions? I do have Grey Knights and Space Wolves as fall backs if you have any thoughts there.

Timberwolf

2012-02-14, 07:04 PM

Alright my fellow 40k addicts, there is a 2000pt tournament on the 18th. The tournament is three rounds, each round featuring one of the three missions from the main rule book. So I’m looking for feedback on the list I’m working on.

Blood Angels
HQ Mephiston 250 Hard to go wrong really
EL Sanguinary Priests (x3) 240pts
Infernus Pistol, Power Weapon Not too sure where all of these are going, I guess one with a scout squad ? perhaps a bit wasted with all the toys.
EL Furioso Dreadnought 165pts
Heavy Flamer, Magna-Grapple, Extra Armour Yes, but lose the extra armour, this goes in the gunship right ?
EL Sternguard Squad (5 Astartes) 230pts
x5 Combi-Melta, x1 Power Fist
Drop Pod with Deathwind Missile Launcher Yes, but needs 10 of them I feel. The Drop pod... probably won't survive to use the Deathwind - cheap kill point.
TR Scout Squads (5 Scouts) 100pts
x4 Sniper Rifles, x1 Missile Launcher, Camo Cloaks Yes
TR Scout Squads (5 Scouts) 100pts
x4 Sniper Rifles, x1 Missile Launcher, Camo Cloaks
TR Assault Squad (10 Astartes) 500pts
x1 Infernus Pistol, x1 Power Fist, x2 Melta guns, No Jump Packs
Land Raider Crusader, Multi-Melta, Storm Bolter, Extra Armour Umm. Doesn't really fit for my money.
TR Tactical Squad (10 Astartes) 170pts
x1 Missile Launcher, x1 Flamer Try to find the points for a plasma gun if you can
HS Stormraven Gunship 245pts
Twin-Multi-Melta, Hurricane Bolters, Extra Armour Yes, but maybe lose the extra armour ? Tough one to call as this thing relies on its mobility.
Total: 2000pts

I'd be tempted to trade the Assault marines for Death Company so I could take a Death Company Dread myself (cheaper as it laughs at extra armour and more attacks). That would also remove the need for one of those Sanguinary priests. I do feel that a plasma gun will serve you better than the flamer on the Tac squad. I'd really be tempted to lose that Tac squad for another squad of scouts, maybe use the extra points to beef up those squads because more shots = more hits and more hits = more rends.

Another thing to consider is that you will lose that gunship first. It's only AV 12. Stormravens work really well with 2 or more and even then, there's a reason I use 3. At least one will drop its cargo where its needed.

Anyway, hope that's helpful.

Cheesegear

2012-02-15, 01:54 AM

As a Troops choice, they're not as good as Genestealers.

lolwat. Genestealers are bad. Really, really, really bad. Termagants are currently the best Troops in the 'dex - or second best after Warriors, depends on who you ask.

The only - only - time Genestealers are any good is when they Outflank. And now that Coteaz is in the game, Genestealers have turned to junk.

You can spend more points on them, give them extra weapons and biomorphs (even 'wargear', in the days before they were biomorphs) and then they'll be as expensive as Genestealers..... But still not as good. :smalltongue:

The only upgrade Termagants ever take are Devourers. And it's still cheaper than Genestealers. If you want to upgrade past Devourers, stop, and get a Tervigon instead. Otherwise scrap your Termagants for Warriors.

As such, there are only 2 good ways to use Termagaunts: the first is "Lots", as they die in droves but can put out a huge number of shots anyway, which is probably the best way to deal with good armour saves (ie: make them roll it a whole heap of times).
The second is "Cheap" because that, rather usefully, helps you achieve "Lots". :smallbiggrin:

This is flawed. Primarily because I think you're running off the idea that Genestealers are any good.

The first is 'lots'. They don't die in droves because they're in cover thanks to actually being in cover or being babysat by a Venomthrope. At 10 points each with the proper upgrade, you can output 48 shots at S4 for 160 points (what Space Marines are paying for a Plaserback squad - roughly) at 18" range which means they'll be out-firefighting Marines.

Without the good weapon upgrade, for the same points, you put out 32 shots (separated into two squads of 16, hopefully) at only 12" range, which is the range in which you get Assaulted or even Flamer'd to death, or you get blown apart by Rapid Fire.

The second is 'cheap', because it helps you spam Tervigons. That's it. Not because it puts more models on the board. But because you can spam Scoring MCs which directly equals more free (cheap) Termagants.

Winterwind

2012-02-15, 08:30 AM

Alright, thanks! Sounds like I'll go with Devourers, then. :smallsmile:

What about Stranglewebs? It sounds like something that one might as well get for the rare occasion where it may come in handy, as it doesn't really cost much.

Wraith

2012-02-15, 02:32 PM

The only - only - time Genestealers are any good is when they Outflank. And now that Coteaz is in the game, Genestealers have turned to junk.

You'd possibly be amazed at how many armies don't contain Coteaz. :smalltongue:

Seriously though, he doesn't play any part in my local metagame (*I* am the only person I know who plays Grey Knights, and I play Pure Marines) but tanks throwing around Pie Plates in the first turn really does. Outflank with Rending weapons is great.

The only upgrade Termagants ever take are Devourers. And it's still cheaper than Genestealers. If you want to upgrade past Devourers, stop, and get a Tervigon instead. Otherwise scrap your Termagants for Warriors.

Termagaunt + Devourer = 10 points (each)
Termagaunt + Devourer + Adrenal Glands + Toxin Sacs + 1/10th of a Strangelweb = 13 points (each)

But Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs and Strangelwebs aren't worth taking, so the cheaper option is the better one. Isn't that what I just said? :smallconfused:

The first is 'lots'. They don't die in droves because they're in cover thanks to actually being in cover or being babysat by a Venomthrope..

So, to use your own words, we're playing Schrödinger's Army now?
You guarantee that you're ALWAYS going to have a cover save from everything, at all times? No, of course not.
Anything with a 6+ Save needs more bodies, if only for that 1 turn out of 6 where they're unable to hide from something. I don't think that's contestable.

Tervigons

As Winterwind pointed out, Spawned Termagaunts don't get upgrades - they're stuck with Flesh Borers. Telling him to equip his models with Devourers AND to spam Tervigons is mutually exclusive, if his buddy is going to learn anything about WYSIWYG.

Similarly, "lots" doesn't just apply to models on the table, it applies to models in his collection. And if he does take the advice of lots of Tervigons (and he certainly should, don't get me wrong) then he's going to need lots of proxies for when they're churning out up to 6x 3d6 plebs per turn, and even amongst 40k players I don't know many folk who have enough time and money to collect 60+ Termagaunts for the list and another 40-ish that they may or may not need later.
Building them with Flesh Borers might not be as great, but certainly in the short term for a newbie to get used to it might be a good idea. *shrugs*

Squark

2012-02-15, 04:32 PM

Let's back up a moment here. Let's consider a few things

1) How much of this depends on your metagame?
Let's see... The aforementioned outflank strategy is heavily dependent on how common Coteaz and other countermeasures to outflanking exist. Wraith's meta is low on them; Cheesegear's less so, evidently.
Next, Cover saves. This depends A LOT on how many ruins you have access to, and how many of them you use. Some people like to make the board look like a bombed out city, while others prefer open fields with a few scattered hills and the occasional ruin acting as an objective place. And then, of course, there's everything in between. Let's just say that in some metagames, Termagaunts should have a cover save 90% of the time if you're doing it right (against normal shooting attacks, that is), and in some metas cover is incredibly scarce, and of course there are millions of examples in between.

2) Spamming Tervigons and Devourers
Correct me if I'm wrong, but to take Tervigons, you need to take some 'gaunts, too, correct? I don't see why giving the small squad you need to take Tervigons some devourers is a bad idea. Granted, the dead gaunts from this squad can't be put back onto the field as newly spawned termagaunts (if you run low on the ones you intended to use for your Tervigons), but you can't have everything.

EDIT: Just because the title of the thread involves punching people in the head, doesn't mean we have to get into a shouting match this early in the thread.:smallwink:

Cheesegear

2012-02-15, 04:57 PM

What about Stranglewebs? It sounds like something that one might as well get for the rare occasion where it may come in handy, as it doesn't really cost much.

I wouldn't. Stranglewebs cost as much as two more Termagants. Or, one more Termagant with Devourer. If your game is heavy with Marines (T4, 3+ save) the Strangleweb is needing 6s To Wound, and then the Marines get a save anyway. If you play against Guardian-Eldar or Imperial Guard a lot, then maybe. But only maybe. Like I said, I wouldn't bother with the Strangleweb, with Shooty-Gants, you don't ever want to be close enough to actually use the Template weapon anyway.

Outflank with Rending weapons is great.

Enter Tyranid Warriors who can do it too with the right HQ choice. Or just use the Mycetic Spore.

Termagaunt + Devourer + Adrenal Glands + Toxin Sacs + 1/10th of a Strangelweb = 13 points (each)

So, even at their most expensive, a Termagant is still not as expensive as a non-upgraded Genestealer? Proved yourself wrong there.

So, to use your own words, we're playing Schrödinger's Army now?
You guarantee that you're ALWAYS going to have a cover save from everything, at all times? No, of course not.

Yes. With the Venomthrope. It's not Schrodinger's Army when I specifically include things. And if you're playing Swarm 'Nids, then if you don't take Venomthropes, you're doing it wrong.

Frankly, if you don't have your big Scoring unit of Termagants with Devourers in cover on your objective, you're doing it wrong again. In this particular case, at least one unit of Termagants, will always have a cover save, unless you're playing on the grass field. But Venomthropes.

As Winterwind pointed out, Spawned Termagaunts don't get upgrades - they're stuck with Flesh Borers. Telling him to equip his models with Devourers AND to spam Tervigons is mutually exclusive, if his buddy is going to learn anything about WYSIWYG.

You seem to have completely misread what I said.

Take as many Termagants with Devourers as you can.
If you plan on taking Tervigons, take the minimum Termagants that you can (when it comes to list-building). If you don't plan on taking Tervigons, spend the spare points on more Termagants.

But, yes. Taking Tervigons is amazing. But, from what I've read from Winterwind, cash isn't in abundance, so every unit needs to be able to stand on it's on feet which is where Devourers come in.

Next, Cover saves. This depends A LOT on how many ruins you have access to, and how many of them you use. Some people like to make the board look like a bombed out city, while others prefer open fields with a few scattered hills and the occasional ruin acting as an objective place.

The rules suggest 25% of the board should be covered in terrain. Anything less than that favours particular armies, and any board with more than 50% or so makes the game nearly unplayable (IMO).

If you're at home, use pieces of paper to indicate area terrain, or put some books on the table for hills, etc. There are also dozens - if not hundreds - of tutorials around of how to make terrain out of what is otherwise garbage. Making chest-high walls out of cardboard is the easiest thing in the world. Or, go into a garden and just pick up a few rocks and superglue them into a straight line.

Termagaunts should have a cover save 90% of the time if you're doing it right (against normal shooting attacks, that is), and in some metas cover is incredibly scarce, and of course there are millions of examples in between.

With a Venomthrope (brought up several times now, I'm not changing this to suit my argument, hence not Schrodinger's Army), Termagants have a Cover Save 100% of the time, even on a grass field.

lord_khaine

2012-02-15, 05:32 PM

As Winterwind pointed out, Spawned Termagaunts don't get upgrades - they're stuck with Flesh Borers. Telling him to equip his models with Devourers AND to spam Tervigons is mutually exclusive, if his buddy is going to learn anything about WYSIWYG.

What?
Doesnt termagaunts get an awfull lot of powers if they stand close enough to a tervigon?

With a Venomthrope (brought up several times now, I'm not changing this to suit my argument, hence not Schrodinger's Army), Termagants have a Cover Save 100% of the time, even on a grass field.

But isnt that only a 5+ save?
And isnt those Vernomthropes both taking vital elite slots, while at the same time being soft T4 models who are just begging for a couple of krak missiles?

Cheesegear

2012-02-15, 05:43 PM

Doesnt termagaunts get an awfull lot of powers if they stand close enough to a tervigon?

If the Tervigon has the right upgrades, yes. Which it should. Then it starts using its Psykery.

And isnt those Vernomthropes both taking vital elite slots, while at the same time being soft T4 models who are just begging for a couple of krak missiles?

Sort of, and yes.
Elite slots are only vital to those people who can't convert. The most useful things in the 'dex right now are Harpies with HVCs (170+ Points :smallfrown:) and Tyrannofii with Rupture Cannons (265+ Points :smallfurious:).
Try and keep your Venomthropes out of LoS somehow. Their Cloud still works.

...I just don't like talking about the Tyranid Codex, even the 'good' things in it are still pretty bad.

Ninjaman

2012-02-15, 06:38 PM

So i was wondering:
Devour gants, don't they just get shot?
Harpies, aren't much of the reason not to use carnifex that they die too easily, these die like 2 times as fast, for the same points.

Cheesegear

2012-02-15, 07:55 PM

Devour gants, don't they just get shot?

Yes. Hence the Venomthropes or putting them in actual cover. Also, you can have lots of them since they're only ten points apiece. Like I've already mentioned, the 3 shots at 18" range goes a long way (pun unintended). So, while they do get shot at, the thing is, they can shoot back.

Harpies, aren't much of the reason not to use carnifex that they die too easily, these die like 2 times as fast, for the same points.

Harpies don't take Tyrannofex slots. It's kind of like telling a Space Marine player not to take TLAC Dreadnoughts because Autolas Predators don't die as easily. You can have both. Carnifii with HVCs are only a stopgap for Tyrannofii, and once you learn to convert, ditch all your Carnifii for Tyrannofii.

Harpies can also fly to get better angles for their HVC because Emperor knows -1 to the damage table needs all the help it can get.

Ninjaman

2012-02-16, 06:11 AM

Yes. Hence the Venomthropes or putting them in actual cover. Also, you can have lots of them since they're only ten points apiece. Like I've already mentioned, the 3 shots at 18" range goes a long way (pun unintended). So, while they do get shot at, the thing is, they can shoot back.

But even in cover termagants tend to die a lot, these die twice as quickly.

Harpies don't take Tyrannofex slots. It's kind of like telling a Space Marine player not to take TLAC Dreadnoughts because Autolas Predators don't die as easily. You can have both. Carnifii with HVCs are only a stopgap for Tyrannofii, and once you learn to convert, ditch all your Carnifii for Tyrannofii.

Harpies can also fly to get better angles for their HVC because Emperor knows -1 to the damage table needs all the help it can get.

You don't always fill all 3 heavy slots. And the problem with the harpy is that it gets ID'd by S10 weapons, get torn through by autocannons, and even die easily to small arms fire, and getting cover will be hard without limiting firepower quite a bit. Also what is so great about venom cannons?

Ricky S

2012-02-16, 06:25 AM

WYSIWYG means the army you proposed is beyond my doing given the time frame and the cost.:smalleek: Any other suggestions? I do have Grey Knights and Space Wolves as fall backs if you have any thoughts there.

Lol dude I wasnt seriously suggesting that you go out and buy an army like that. It was just an example of what tournament armies look like. They are just spamming the same unit multiple times.

The main thing for tournament play is to make sure you know how your army works. Practise games are essential to give you an idea on how everything operates and the limitations of your army and units. Best of luck to you.

Wraith

2012-02-16, 06:35 AM

So, even at their most expensive, a Termagant is still not as expensive as a non-upgraded Genestealer? Proved yourself wrong there.

Yes, I suppose I let hyperbole get the better of me. Touché, sir. :smalltongue:

Yes. With the Venomthrope. It's not Schrodinger's Army when I specifically include things. And if you're playing Swarm 'Nids, then if you don't take Venomthropes, you're doing it wrong.

Template Weapons. Dragonfire Rounds. A healthy selection of IG Tanks. One lucky Krak Missile, as lord_khaine said. And - dare I say it? - Marker Lights.

I'm not arguing that you shouldn't give Termagaunts a Cover Save, but I am arguing that you should be prepared for when they inevitably don't have it.

You seem to have completely misread what I said.

[....]

But, yes. Taking Tervigons is amazing. But, from what I've read from Winterwind, cash isn't in abundance, so every unit needs to be able to stand on it's on feet which is where Devourers come in.

I think this is where we've crossed wires. You're talking about taking the best Troops Unit choice, I'm mostly talking about building models so that they'll remain relevant for as long as possible for the new player.

In principle, yes I agree - Lots of Termagaunts hiding in the shadow of a Venomthropw or Tervigon (preferably both) are about the best you can hope for in 'Nids. I disagree that Genestealers fall so low as 'junk' for the same reasons that Squark mentioned and a couple of others, but that's hardly a point worth arguing extensively over. :smallsmile:

What?
Doesnt termagaunts get an awfull lot of powers if they stand close enough to a tervigon?

Yes, but 1) you have to pay extra for those upgrades, and 2) the Termagaunts will still spawn with Flesh Borers and you cannot alter that. Making models with Devourers - as I briefly mentioned above - is not WYSIWYG. Which is why I was also advocating keeping back a stash of 'unarmed' Termagaunts for such a purpose.

Also, the fully equipped Tervigon and Venomthrope that you 'need' to make Termagaunts a good unit, costs well over 200pts in addition to the unit. A cynic could say that your 20-man unit now costs an average of 20-25pts per model.
Synergy is one thing, but I'm not a big fan of any unit where you have to go "They're really good.... So long as you spend a further 10% of you army list on other units to back them up". Especially when the same units could also apply the same bonuses to other 'not very good' units. :smalltongue:

...I just don't like talking about the Tyranid Codex, even the 'good' things in it are still pretty bad.

Amen.

Ninjaman

2012-02-16, 06:57 AM

Also, the fully equipped Tervigon and Venomthrope that you 'need' to make Termagaunts a good unit, costs well over 200pts in addition to the unit.

A tervigon with catalyst toxin sacs and adranal glands is 195 points. This is what you need.

Cheesegear

2012-02-16, 07:15 AM

You don't always fill all 3 heavy slots.

You should try. Most armies that min-max can generally fill 3 of every slot (except HQ, obviously, and including Troops) by ~1500 points. Give or take.

And the problem with the harpy is that it gets ID'd by S10 weapons

So does practically everything? The only things that are S10 that I see regularly are Leman Russ Demolishers and the odd Marine player every now and then that still uses Vinidcators over Predators. Lysander which I only use and I don't get nearly enough opportunities to play against my own army and Draigo when he's against a Psyker which is moot because a Harpy isn't. And when a BA Librarian wants to use Sword. Which, if I'm playing Tyranids, he's welcome to try.

get torn through by autocannons

So does everything in the Tyranid Codex.

Also what is so great about venom cannons?

They're S9 at range. And you're Tyranids. You need it.

Synergy is one thing, but I'm not a big fan of any unit where you have to go "They're really good.... So long as you spend a further 10% of you army list on other units to back them up". Especially when the same units could also apply the same bonuses to other 'not very good' units. :smalltongue:

And since around half of the Codex works like that, the Codex is...Not good.

Winterwind

2012-02-16, 10:12 AM

2) Spamming Tervigons and Devourers
Correct me if I'm wrong, but to take Tervigons, you need to take some 'gaunts, too, correct? I don't see why giving the small squad you need to take Tervigons some devourers is a bad idea. Granted, the dead gaunts from this squad can't be put back onto the field as newly spawned termagaunts (if you run low on the ones you intended to use for your Tervigons), but you can't have everything.This right here was pretty much my thought, too.

No, that friend of mine doesn't have Tervigons (yet). I intend to convert one for him sooner or later, but by the time I do, I'd probably give him additional Termagaunts anyway.

Also, it seems I got lucky and the pack I got includes sixteen instead of the usual twelve Termagaunts by accident. The additional four don't have special weapons and no bases, but I have enough spare bases lying around. So I guess those four shall become the first of a future Tervigon's fleshborer spawn. :smallcool:

Also what is so great about venom cannons?Being able to deal with fair amounts of tanks, quickly and without having to spend multiple rounds to close in, and without having to rely solely on suicide units (which in this context means Zoanthropes coming down in Spores), is just about the first, foremost, and most pressing necessity as the game moves to harder levels. At the very most casual extreme, one usually doesn't see many tanks; as the going gets tougher though, if you can't deal well with tanks, you will drown. And venom cannons, in spite of their negative modifier on the vehicle damage table, are still just about the only thing Tyranids have that has a decent range and also the Strength to penetrate heavier armours. The only other thing is Tyrannofexes, which is why Cheesegear said that all these other options were merely stopgaps for those.

Ninjaman

2012-02-16, 05:53 PM

You should try. Most armies that min-max can generally fill 3 of every slot (except HQ, obviously, and including Troops) by ~1500 points. Give or take.

5 tervigons
30 termagants
6 hive guard
2 Tyrannofex is way above 1500. I think it is even above 2000.

So does practically everything? The only things that are S10 that I see regularly are Leman Russ Demolishers and the odd Marine player every now and then that still uses Vinidcators over Predators. Lysander which I only use and I don't get nearly enough opportunities to play against my own army and Draigo when he's against a Psyker which is moot because a Harpy isn't. And when a BA Librarian wants to use Sword. Which, if I'm playing Tyranids, he's welcome to try.

And railguns. Which isn't much of a problem but my most common enemy is tau.

So does everything in the Tyranid Codex.

But compared to carnifexes these wound on 2's instead of 3's and ignores your save.

They're S9 at range. And you're Tyranids. You need it.

For what? Blast and special rules makes them bad against tanks, ap makes them bad against infantry. What is the point?

@Winter wind:

Hive guard? Range 24 isn't awesome, but being able to move before fireing somewhat makes up for that. And being able to shoot out of LOS is cool.

Renegade Paladin

2012-02-16, 05:57 PM

For what? Blast and special rules makes them bad against tanks, ap makes them bad against infantry. What is the point?
You know, I'm sick of hearing this. Having a blast does not automatically make a weapon bad against tanks; it makes it good against infantry. This does not mean you shouldn't shoot something with a blast against a tank if it has high enough S to hurt the tank.

This goes double for ordnance weapons. If I had a nickle for every time I've blown up some big nasty with high-S large blast ordnance that "shouldn't" have been shot at it... I'd have a lot of nickles. :smalltongue:

Timberwolf

2012-02-16, 06:37 PM

This goes double for ordnance weapons. If I had a nickle for every time I've blown up some big nasty with high-S large blast ordnance that "shouldn't" have been shot at it... I'd have a lot of nickles. :smalltongue:

Entirely agreed. If there's one weapon I fear above all for my gunships, its... the lascannon, hardly surprising. Second is the Assault cannon as it just has my number. A close joint third though are Demolisher shots, Battle Cannon shots and Manticore shots. A gunship / tank is a big target and those things tend to hit.

Renegade Paladin

2012-02-16, 06:47 PM

Entirely agreed. If there's one weapon I fear above all for my gunships, its... the lascannon, hardly surprising. Second is the Assault cannon as it just has my number. A close joint third though are Demolisher shots, Battle Cannon shots and Manticore shots. A gunship / tank is a big target and those things tend to hit.
Rolling twice and taking highest for armor penetration doesn't hurt either. Ordnance has that rule for a reason.

Ninjaman

2012-02-16, 08:14 PM

You know, I'm sick of hearing this. Having a blast does not automatically make a weapon bad against tanks; it makes it good against infantry. This does not mean you shouldn't shoot something with a blast against a tank if it has high enough S to hurt the tank.

This goes double for ordnance weapons. If I had a nickle for every time I've blown up some big nasty with high-S large blast ordnance that "shouldn't" have been shot at it... I'd have a lot of nickles. :smalltongue:

But isn't that good, also the venom cannon get's -1 on the dammage chart.

Rolling twice and taking highest for armor penetration doesn't hurt either. Ordnance has that rule for a reason.

It isn't ordnance, which is pretty much the reason the others were good at it.

Renegade Paladin

2012-02-16, 09:43 PM

But isn't that good, also the venom cannon get's -1 on the dammage chart.
When you're playing Tyranids, you should take what you can get. The last time I played against a Tyranid army, I suffered precisely one casualty because he couldn't deal with tanks outside of assault. AP- or not, a penetrating hit is a penetrating hit.

Cheesegear

2012-02-17, 01:17 AM

[List]is way above 1500. I think it is even above 2000.

...Huh. Well, just another things that makes Tyranids bad, since most other armies are doing it.

For what? Blast and special rules makes them bad against tanks, ap makes them bad against infantry. What is the point?

What? Venom Cannons and Heavy Venom Cannons are both AP4. Perfectly fine against Infantry.

^ And see Renegade Paladin's post. The game is almost entirely about Fast vehicles dominating the meta-game at this point. Feel free to run around trying to catch Fast vechiles running around the board. Sure, you can probably get them in Assault if enough of your critters have Fleet, but, most of the time if your opponent knows what they're doing (and I have seen it more than once), you'll never Assault his vehicles without a lot of hard work.

See; Hammernators being bad.

Timberwolf

2012-02-17, 06:32 AM

When you're playing Tyranids, you should take what you can get. The last time I played against a Tyranid army, I suffered precisely one casualty because he couldn't deal with tanks outside of assault. AP- or not, a penetrating hit is a penetrating hit.

Yep, even if you only stun it, that's a turn it's doing nothing and your carnifex or Flyrant or something else nasty can get a bit closer. Venom cannons are pretty useful if you don't want Zoanthropes / don't have a Tyrannofex.

lord_khaine

2012-02-17, 07:24 AM

So does practically everything? The only things that are S10 that I see regularly are Leman Russ Demolishers and the odd Marine player every now and then that still uses Vinidcators over Predators. Lysander which I only use and I don't get nearly enough opportunities to play against my own army and Draigo when he's against a Psyker which is moot because a Harpy isn't. And when a BA Librarian wants to use Sword. Which, if I'm playing Tyranids, he's welcome to try.

You should proberly add Doom Scythes to that list, as soon as the Necron players get startet on coverting Fire Prisms :smalltongue:

evisiron

2012-02-17, 11:52 AM

I had another couple of ideas for the Doubles Tournament discussed in the previous thread. What do you think of these:

Orks
Each 750 Ork forces takes a Warboss on a Bike and one large unit of biker Nobs. Normally I wouldn't go near a biker nob list, but with the chance to give one unit each a special rule, each unit can take Stealth. This means they will have a 3+ cover save all of the time, and a 2+ cover save when they turbo boost.

The main drawback is that the missions are objective heavy, and unless we table people there is little chance to be where we need to be to actual pull in the wins.

Space Wolves and Space Marines
Or more specifically, Thunderwolves and Shrike. We still have to put this to paper, but the general idea is take a unit of thunderwolves and a wolf mounted HQ or two and have them infiltrate with Shrike. They can split up immediately and first turn assault up to four units. If we get first turn this could practically end the game before it begins.

There are a few thorns though.
1. Dawn of War. This list is a one trick pony and there is no room to do it here. Thunderwolves could be outflanked, or Shrike could be tagged onto a different unit.
2. Servo skulls, or anything that stops us from infiltrating will screw up our plans royally
3. Buildings. This tournament is traditionally riddled with them, and if the enemy is small enough to hide upstairs, only Shrike will get to them early on.
4. Transport heavy would mess us up a bit if the contents is shooty enough, if there is nowhere to hide in combat.
5. Non-static army deployment such as Drop podding or daemon deep striking leaves us with no target to alpha strike. Even putting everything into reserve would put us off balance.

I'm also having difficulty deciding what to take on the Space marine side. Anti-tank seems like a solid choice, so Predators or suicide Sternguard seem a must. I feel like there is better that can be picked though.

Could these be improved?

Closer to now, my Sanguinauts take to the field in their first tournament tomorrow! :smallbiggrin: They have been built up heeding the advice of this very forum, so a big thanks to all who offered Blood Angels advice.
As far as predictions go, this tournament is always a tough one, so expecting 1 win, 1 draw, 3 loses. If I do better than that, I will be pretty happy indeed.
Wish me luck! :smallsmile:

Renegade Paladin

2012-02-17, 06:53 PM

See; Hammernators being bad.
Hammernators in a Caestus assault ram? :smallbiggrin:

Forge World to the rescue! :smallamused:

Cheesegear

2012-02-17, 08:09 PM

Hammernators in a Caestus assault ram? :smallbiggrin:

Forge World to the rescue! :smallamused:

Fast Skimmers to the rescue. Its weird how many of the game's problems are solved with Fast Skimmers.

Renegade Paladin

2012-02-17, 10:11 PM

Fast Skimmers to the rescue. Its weird how many of the game's problems are solved with Fast Skimmers.
Fast skimmers that carry 10 Terminators with afterburners. :smallbiggrin:

Shovah

2012-02-17, 10:41 PM

Fast skimmers that carry 10 Terminators with afterburners. :smallbiggrin:

Fast skimmers that can carry 10 Terminators with afterburners and Assault Vehicle. :smalltongue:

Ricky S

2012-02-18, 07:04 AM

lord_khaine

2012-02-18, 08:41 AM

Fast Skimmers to the rescue. Its weird how many of the game's problems are solved with Fast Skimmers.

Alternatively, its weird how many of the game's problems are caused by vehicles.

Renegade Paladin

2012-02-18, 11:18 AM

Hey guys I have been building up my guard army and I was just wondering what is the best set up for heavy weapons in the squads. I am guessing it is autocannons because at BS3 you are going to be wasting a lot of lascannon or missile launcher shots if you take them.

Basically my 1000pts army so far is
-Command squad
-veteran squad
-Platoon with 4 infantry squads
-2 basilisks
-1 demolisher

I dont have any solid anti tank yet but I am planning on taking vendettas as anti tank in my 1500pts list. So are autocannons the best bet?
Basilisks and Demolishers are quite solid anti-tank, actually. (Really they're anti-everything, but yeah.)

Lascannons are actually a fairly good bet with a company command squad in the mix, since you can make them twin-linked with orders. Autocannons are also good. I usually run some of each.
Alternatively, its weird how many of the game's problems are caused by vehicles.
Go get yourself an RPG-7 and plink away at a modern main battle tank for awhile. Then come back and tell me how easy killing one should be. :smalltongue: If anything, the game models tanks as too fragile.

lord_khaine

2012-02-18, 11:56 AM

Go get yourself an RPG-7 and plink away at a modern main battle tank for awhile. Then come back and tell me how easy killing one should be. If anything, the game models tanks as too fragile.

Well, thats something that unfortunately is overcompensated for by how cheap they are :smallamused:

Cheesegear

2012-02-18, 07:09 PM

Okay, 500 point tournament coming up in the next few weeks. I figure, hey, it's 500 points. I could start any army I wanted and have it painted by then. This'll be easy.

Imperial Guard
Lord Commissar - 80 Points
Camo Cloak

Veterans - 155 Points
x3 Meltaguns
+ Chimera

Veterans - 155 Points
x3 Meltaguns
+ Chimera

Sentinels (x3) - 110 Points
x1 Heavy Flamer

Blood Angels :smallsigh:
Librarian - 100 Points

Sanguinary Priest - 65 Points
Power Weapon

Assault Squad (x5) - 170 Points
Meltagun
Sergeant; Melta Bombs
+ Plaserback

Assault Squad (x5) - 165 Points
Meltagun
+ Plaserback

Space Wolves
Rune Priest - 100 Points

Grey Hunters (x5) - 155 Points
Meltagun
+ Plaserback

Grey Hunters (x5) - 155 Points
Meltagun
+ Plaserback

Long Fangs (x4) - 90 Points
x3 Missile Launchers

Ricky S

2012-02-18, 08:01 PM

Basilisks and Demolishers are quite solid anti-tank, actually. (Really they're anti-everything, but yeah.)

Lascannons are actually a fairly good bet with a company command squad in the mix, since you can make them twin-linked with orders. Autocannons are also good. I usually run some of each.

Go get yourself an RPG-7 and plink away at a modern main battle tank for awhile. Then come back and tell me how easy killing one should be. If anything, the game models tanks as too fragile.

I'll try them out as such.The range on the demolisher will be the only issue. Luckily so far I havent had to play against any vehicles, only mephiston, 20 assault marines and 10 devastators... Wait, thats worse.

Good point. I keep on thinking of guard as individual units without support from their commanders. I have been playing space marines too long. For now I will run two and two and see how that goes.

The problem then arises, is an rpg-7 firing at a M1a1 equivalent to a missile launcher firing at a leman russ? Also for a table top game they are trying to make it fun to play not overly realistic.

LeSwordfish

2012-02-19, 01:01 PM

So what about this list? 82 models, three tanks. 6 meltas, 6 joakero, two plasma guns and two psycannons for anti-armour.

HQ
Coteaz 100

Ordo Xenos Inquisitor Rourke 101
Rad Grenades, dude.
Combi Bolter-melta.
Psyker- Force Sword, Hammerhand.
Power Armour.
Servo-skull

ELITES
Purifier squad -202
2 extra purifiers
2 Psycannons
3 Halberds
2 Demon Hammers

Vindicare assassin-145

Techpreist- 113
Rad grenades
Halberd
Storm bolter

TROOPS
Henchman squad- 147
2 Jokaero
10 warriors
-9 Storm Bolters
-1 plasma gun

Henchman squad- 147
2 Jokaero
10 warriors
-9 Storm Bolters
-1 plasma gun

Henchman squad- 195
2 Jokaero
10 warriors
-Storm Bolters
Chimera (For the purifiers)

Henchman squad- 180
3 Crusaders
9 Warriors
-3 Meltaguns
-6 Storm bolters
Chimera

Henchman squad- 180
3 Crusaders
9 Warriors
-3 Meltaguns
-6 Storm bolters
Chimera

1500 points exactly

The two plasma guns in the henchmen squads are...*shrug*. I had 20 points spare and two models with plasma guns. Plus, that frees me enough points for the servo-skull and storm bolter. If conventional wisdom is that plasma guns are too unreliable i'll find some meltas somewhere. Most likely in a shop.

Teln

2012-02-19, 01:30 PM

http://www.warhammer39999.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/plasma-weapons-demotivational-poster-1216259150.jpg

Seriously, they're good. AP2, Rapid Fire, wounds most things on 2+. Just keep in mind that they're anti-infantry guns that happen to be useful against tanks, and you should be quite pleased with the result.

Squark

2012-02-19, 01:47 PM

Gryffon

2012-02-19, 03:46 PM

The Necron Battleforce has been announced (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440160a&prodId=prod1460175a)

My thoughts; You're getting 3 troop choices, a dedicated transport, and a fast attack choice. However, the immortals are the only really good things in there (I remain skeptical about the usefulness of the Ghost Ark, as I've said before).

Costwise, the Ghost Ark is about 25% off, and the extra warriors and scarabs are free.

Something else that this indicates, which has been a question for me at least, is that it says in the description that you can also make the immortals deathmarks, and you can make the ghost ark a doomsday ark.

lord_khaine

2012-02-19, 03:57 PM

Yes?

Most new packs can be used to make 2 different units.

Renegade Paladin

2012-02-19, 08:46 PM

I'll try them out as such.The range on the demolisher will be the only issue. Luckily so far I havent had to play against any vehicles, only mephiston, 20 assault marines and 10 devastators... Wait, thats worse.
Demolishers take a lot of finesse and a good sense of distance to use. I haven't mastered the art; I have a tendency to get mine too close and then assaulted to death. If you can skirt at the edge of the cannon's range, though, you're golden. If you take multimeltas, don't worry too much about melta range; it's still an AP1 missile launcher at 24".

With Basilisks, don't forget that barrage always hits the side armor of a vehicle, to represent the top armor. Combined with it being S9 Ordnance, that'll kill most things short of a Land Raider with considerable ease.

Good point. I keep on thinking of guard as individual units without support from their commanders. I have been playing space marines too long. For now I will run two and two and see how that goes.
One Company Command Squad gets two orders per turn. If you blob up your infantry squads with heavy weapons, one order gets all of them. You can then use your second HQ slot for something else (or for another CCS tooled up to murder stuff with a Chimera so you don't have to worry about keeping them near the heavy weapons) or just save points for more troops.

Cheesegear

2012-02-20, 02:44 AM

So, 500 points of Imperial Guard. I'm basically down to these two;

EDIT;
Cancel everything. This is what I'm doing.

Mordian style!

Company Command - 70 Points
Lascannon, x2 Grenade Launchers

Ratlings (x5) - 50 Points

Marbo - 65 Points

Veteran Squad - 105 Points
Lascannon, x3 Grenade Launchers

Veteran Squad - 105 Points
Lascannon, x3 Grenade Launchers

Veteran Squad - 105 Points
Lascannon, x3 Grenade Launchers

Total: 500 points

Wraith

2012-02-20, 06:57 AM

Have to admit, I'm slightly surprised to see Marbo in there.
From experience I know that he's the ultimate suicide unit and is to be feared, but I've also seen a lot of criticism about him. Least of all, because for the same price you could have another unit of Ratlings, and bodies always count in small games.

Having said that.... Scary. Unless someone comes at you with 500 points worth of Ork/Tyranid Swarm, someone is going to go home crying. And even then you might get away with it.... :smalltongue:

Cheesegear

2012-02-20, 07:34 AM

Having said that.... Scary. Unless someone comes at you with 500 points worth of Ork/Tyranid Swarm, someone is going to go home crying. And even then you might get away with it.... :smalltongue:

Originally it was

Command Squad - 70 Points
Lascannon, x2 Grenade Launchers

Veteran Squad - 105 Points
x3 Grenade Launchers, Lascannon

And just 4 Veteran Squads. Equals 490. Anybody who says the Guard Codex isn't broken, hasn't read it. I swapped a Veteran Squad for two squads of Ratlings, since these are Mordians* (Veterans on Foot, Grenade Launcher, Lascannon spam) and Ratlings were easier on the wallet - I'm essentially building a new 500 point army in a month. But, then I've found out something really, really terrifying with Parking Lot armies; What happens when your opponent leaves LoS? Nothing. That's what. Which is where Marbo comes in.

Alternatively, I can drop the Ratlings and Marbo and go for something similar to my original list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12746048&postcount=68) and use Sentinels.

* Sauce: Imperial Guard 4th Edition. I can do the list with Cadians. But I really, really want my Mail Order to come so I can rock up with Mordians, since nobody really has those anymore.

Gryffon

2012-02-20, 10:20 AM

Yes?

Most new packs can be used to make 2 different units.

Sure, but I thought I saw some people(and was curious myself), if the battleforces just included the sprues needed to create the listed models, or if they were in fact the dual-purpose sprues. I may just be out of date in my realization.

Penguinizer

2012-02-20, 12:59 PM

I need some advice on 750 points lists. I'll be going to a doubles tournament (750x2) a few weeks from now and I'd like some feedback on my list. The rules are: Rules/abilities only affect your own army, 33 total armor value max, no special characters. I can't remember much else off the top of my head.

So far, my possible lists are:
CSM:

HQ: Daemon Prince, Wings, Mark of Slaneesh, Lash. 155

Troops:
5x Plaguemarines, 2x Plasma/meltagun (not sure which), Rhino with dozer blades. 175-185

5x Plaguemarines, 2x Plasma/meltagun (not sure which), Rhino with dozer blades. 175-185

HS:
3x Obliterators, 225

If I go for the cheaper option, I'll ad combiweapons to the rhinos.

IG:

HQ:
Primaris Psyker

Troops:
Veteran Squad, 3x Plasmagun, Chimera with a hull HF. 170
Veteran Squad, 3x Plasmagun, Chimera with a hull HF. 170
Veteran Squad, 3x Plasmagun, Chimera with a hull HF. 170

HS:
Manticore: 160 or something similar in points cost.

My teammate will probably be playing Spave Wolves with some long fangs and something. Since I realized I only have Leman Russes in addition to the veterans for IG and I don't really want to get more minis I'll probably go with the CSM list.

evisiron

2012-02-20, 03:12 PM

...I don't really want to get more minis I'll probably go with the CSM list.

Just to check, what sort of advice are you looking for?
If it's deciding between the two, it may depend on what your partner is fielding. With the assumption it is standard missions, if he has a decent number of Troops choices, Chaos is the way to go. What it lacks in hitting power it makes up for in resiliency, and when you park a Rhino of Plague Marines on an objective, you know the opposition will have to work hard to shift them. That said, you will only be able to cover two objectives max from your side.
On the up side, Lash + Long Fangs with missile launchers will ruin infantry from a distance, and when the time comes Lash will help the Space Wolves set up how combat will run, either setting up a charge or delaying the inevitable.
If you do go Chaos, I would recommend the plasma on the marines. The Obliterators will do well against any tanks you see, and that AV 33 Max rule removes one of the big drawbacks plasma suffers - being unable to damage AV14. Also, if all the Heavy slots are not filled, split the Obliterators into separate units to increase flexibility.

If your partner has got the route of minimal Troops, it may be worth going the route of IG, as the fast moving Troops will prove to be a great boon in objectives missions. Just make sure he has the anti tank to fill the gap of those obliterators.

Overall though, I would probably go for the Chaos in most cases. Obliterators are great in these situations as they can adapt for whatever the enemy is, and you can pull off truly nasty tricks such as Lashing units into a conga line followed with Jaws of the World Wolf.

Cheesegear

2012-02-21, 01:41 AM

So, here's what's up; It seems that due to nearly 100% of my army coming from Mail Order, and I'll pretty much be unable to find anyone to play test 500 point lists with, I'm giving you Playgrounders - yes, you! - the ability to decide my army for me.

Core List:
Company Command - 70 Points
Lascannon, x2 Grenade Launchers

Veteran Squad - 105 Points
x3 Grenade Launchers, Lascannon

Veteran Squad - 105 Points
x3 Grenade Launchers, Lascannon

Veteran Squad - 105 Points
x3 Grenade Launchers, Lascannon

Total: 385 Points

Essentially, I have 115 Points to play with. The problem with this list, is it's inability to deal with anything outside of LoS. Nothing is mobile, nothing can Infiltrate/Outflank for angles or anything. One interesting thing I decided was that Harker and Chimera were 110 Points, and I can drop one Veteran Squad to two Flamers and a Heavy Flamer for 100 Points with ten points left.

100 Points is also enough for a Valkyrie, drop the 'Nade Launchers and Lascannon for Meltaguns and in the end have 20 points left over? Or perhaps even drop a Lascannon and have a Grenade team in a Vendetta? A Gunship is an incredible centerpiece for 500 points.

Another idea (and presently the one I'm going with) is Marbo and 5 Ratlings.

Anyway, go for it Playgrounders;
{table=head]Stuff I should include | Stuff I can't include
Psykers | Priests (crap)
Ratlings | Techpriests (crap)
More Veterans | Storm Troopers
Doctrines | Ogryns (crap)
Bastonne | Rough Riders (crap)[/table]

Of the list on the right, the only choice I kind of, sort of miss is Strom Troopers for their 95 Point Infiltrating, Pinning Melta-teams. But, 95 points is kind of a lot for only 5 models out of the Guard Codex so I'm not particularly bothered. Keep in mind that I decided I liked Mordians before I found my old Codex and realised that they had, like, no downsides.

Tychris1

2012-02-21, 08:29 AM

I'd have to say Ratlings.

BoSheck

2012-02-21, 10:49 AM

Anyway, go for it Playgrounders;

It seems to me like the simplest solution is to mount up. That may not be what you're going for, but, you know, objective based games. My first instinct is 2x Chimera, but I also prioritize army ascetics and I have to say that in your position, I'd go for the gunship; centerpieces are a great thing to have.

Zorg

2012-02-21, 11:32 AM

Tyrannofex/Tervigon:

http://i.imgur.com/E7rFP.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/XS5ok.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/7Ulek.jpg

New Hive Tyrant/Swarmlord/Winged Tyrant:

http://i.imgur.com/Tzfwf.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/mofk5.jpg

Harpy:
Derp, Italliano fail - el Tyranno dell'alveare is obviously not Harpy. I do like that the Swarmlord is basically Señor Swarm, but Itallian. All I can think of is him eating a dude with a flamer and going "eh, that's a spicy meatball!"

Thunderwooolves hoooo!!!

http://i.imgur.com/csfxJ.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/2Dw2M.jpg

Fenrisian wolves:

http://i.imgur.com/BRbBg.jpg

Group shots:

http://i.imgur.com/vCzZ9.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/k2dbC.jpg

All kits above are plastic.

Price info (USD? not sure if this is a conversion of the magazine's prices or what):
Tyranid Hive Tyrant / The Swarmlord 3-Mar-12 $53.75 New Plastic
Tyranid Tyrannofex / Tervigon 3-Mar-12 $57.75 New Plastic
Tyranid Boneswords Pack 3 x 'Pair of Boneswords' 3-Mar-12 $19.75 New Resin
Tyranid Lash Whip & Bonesword Pack 3 x 'Lash Whip & Bonesword' 3-Mar-12 $19.75 New Resin
Deathleaper 1 Fig Box 3-Mar-12 $24.75 Repackaged Resin
Old One Eye 1 Fig Box 3-Mar-12 $41.25 Repackaged Resin
Tyranid Biovore 1 Fig Box 3-Mar-12 $41.25 Repackaged Resin
Tyranid Spore Mine Cluster 9 Fig Box 3-Mar-12 $24.75 Repackaged Resin
The Red Terror 1 Fig Box 3-Mar-12 $41.25 Repackaged Resin
Tyranid Ripper Swarm Brood 1 Base Clampack 3-Mar-12 $13.25 Repackaged Resin

via Fresh Coast 40k (http://www.freshcoast40k.com/2012/02/new-tyranid-models-worth-wait.html) and Faet212 (http://colshofer.blogspot.com.au/2012/02/so-here-they-are.html)

ZeltArruin

2012-02-21, 11:45 AM

Tyrannofex/Tervigon:

New Hive Tyrant/Swarmlord:

Harpy:

Thunderwooolves hoooo!!!

Fenrisian wolves:

All kits above are plastic.

Thunderwooolves hoooo!!!

All kits above are plastic.

Thunderwooolves
plastic.

THUNDERWOLVES!!!
PLASTIC!!!!

ffffffffffFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU. .......I just bought 5 resin thunderwolves....for, like, more than I could get 5 of these. It's a shame I can't return them!

BoSheck

2012-02-21, 12:22 PM

Oo, I really like those Fenrisian Wolf sculpts.... but are those on terminator bases? That strikes me as an odd choice, from a design standpoint. Oh well.

Hawkfrost000

2012-02-21, 12:41 PM

Tervigoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooon!

woooooooooooo!

yay! :smalltongue:

DM

Squark

2012-02-21, 01:12 PM

Oo, I really like those Fenrisian Wolf sculpts.... but are those on terminator bases? That strikes me as an odd choice, from a design standpoint. Oh well.

No, the regular wolves are on normal bases. The Thundwolf cavelry are on terminator bases, but that's to be expected of a wolf capable of carrying a power-armored space marine. You can get a clear picture of this if you find the one with the THunderwolf Canis Wolfborn flanked by the two fenrisian wolves

IthilanorStPete

2012-02-21, 01:17 PM

Sweet, new models, and ones that have been in demand for a while!

hamishspence

2012-02-21, 01:23 PM

No, the regular wolves are on normal bases. The Thundwolf cavelry are on terminator bases, but that's to be expected of a wolf capable of carrying a power-armored space marine. You can get a clear picture of this if you find the one with the THunderwolf Canis Wolfborn flanked by the two fenrisian wolves

The bases look "thinner" relative to their width than normal marine bases.

I'm pretty sure Canis Wolfborn's base is bigger than Terminator type.

My guess is the wolves are on terminator bases, the thunderwolves are on the next size up- between terminator base and Dreadnought base.

Squark

2012-02-21, 01:50 PM

@Hamishpence: *Checks* Canis Wolfborn at least uses a Dreadnaught base. Hmm... Comparing the group picture, it looks like you're correct. The wolves' bases are clearly bigger than those of the Space Marines, and the Thunderwolves' bases are bigger still.

hamishspence

2012-02-21, 01:57 PM

How many sizes of circular base are there? I know there's Marine-size, Terminator-size, Juggernaut-size, do they use Juggernaut-size for everything short of a Mawloc, or is there one more size above that?

BoSheck

2012-02-21, 02:12 PM

No, the regular wolves are on normal bases. The Thundwolf cavelry are on terminator bases, but that's to be expected of a wolf capable of carrying a power-armored space marine. You can get a clear picture of this if you find the one with the THunderwolf Canis Wolfborn flanked by the two fenrisian wolves

Umm. No?

I know my wolves. And I know my Canis model. He's NOT on a 40mm base. he's the size of a dreadnought for crying out loud. The canis model came with a 60mm base and thats what I used for all my resin third party thunderwolves as well.

As I said. Surprised that it looks like the Fenrisian wolves are on terminator bases.

Squark

2012-02-21, 02:13 PM

@Bosheck: Yeah, I noticed I messed up there. Sorry. Just hard to wrap my head around the idea of a wolf bigger than a pickup truck.

How many sizes of circular base are there? I know there's Marine-size, Terminator-size, Juggernaut-size, do they use Juggernaut-size for everything short of a Mawloc, or is there one more size above that?

I believe so; You have 25mm, 40 mm, 60mm, and the oval. Plus the two flying bases.

BoSheck

2012-02-21, 02:29 PM

@Bosheck: Yeah, I noticed I messed up there. Sorry. Just hard to wrap my head around the idea of a wolf bigger than a pickup truck.

I believe so; You have 25mm, 40 mm, 60mm, and the oval. Plus the two flying bases.

No prob!
And bike bases! I've used Fantasy wolves on cavalry/bike bases for a while. The terminator wolves are disconcerting cause they're gonna be harder to fit in groups of cavalry without getting in the way, unlike the bike/cavalry bases.

Timberwolf

2012-02-21, 04:36 PM

Wolfies ?

WOLFIES !

Just what I needed, I wasn't looking forward to coverting them up.

Renegade Paladin

2012-02-21, 04:44 PM

So I suppose this means earlier rumors of a Guard release this quarter were lies. Ah well.

LeSwordfish

2012-02-21, 05:11 PM

Yeah, those thunderwolves are on 60mm bases. *nods sagely*

I like the thunderwolves, though the non-thunderwolves (drizzlewolves?) look a bit odd to me. The poses look too artificial and over-posed. Particularly like the one in the top right, who looks like one of the hundred-and-one-dalmatians, halfway through falling over.

Squark

2012-02-21, 05:58 PM

the non-thunderwolves (drizzlewolves?)

I will refer to Fenrisian Wolves as drizzlewolves from now on.

evisiron

2012-02-21, 07:42 PM

Essentially, I have 115 Points to play with. The problem with this list, is it's inability to deal with anything outside of LoS. Nothing is mobile, nothing can Infiltrate/Outflank for angles or anything.

Other options (which may include dropping a few Grenade launchers to fund):
-Basilisk, lovely ordnance from a distance, gets to those tough to reach spots.
-Master of ordnance, cheaper version of basalisk for same result. The Lascannon makes me assume the Command squad isn't moving, and while I wouldn't normally take him as he limits the command squads options to what he needs to shoot at, he fills that niche for cheap.
-Vendetta, great Scouting ability and very quick. Limited in Anti infantry ability.

If you want to go all infantry, my suggestion would be:
-Drop 2 grenade launchers
-Take Marbo
-Add Master of Ordnance
-Add 3 Ratling snipers.

With this, the opponent will be less happy about hiding out of LoS with the Artillery Barrage lobbed at him every turn. It is irrelevant whether it hits or not, as long as it forces him to move into LoS to act before getting pulverised. Even if the threat of a ordnance template forces him to spread out, that will make it harder to stay hidden from your force.
Marbo is there because he is awesome, and also because he can be a presence wherever he needs to be, either to lob a demo charge or tag objectives. Once again, it is more the threat of what he can do that matters.
As for the Ratlings, there are a nuisance unit. They have the chance of pinning units or dinging light vehicles, but are so small and cheap the enemy will be reluctant to send any serious firepower their way. Even if that happens, as long as you stuck them in some decent cover, they can go to ground for 2+ cover saves and laugh as the opposition have wasted a units shooting.

There is my opinion, hope it helps. :smallsmile:

Cheesegear

2012-02-22, 01:52 AM

If you want to go all infantry, my suggestion would be:
-Drop 4 grenade launchers
-Take Marbo
-Add Master of Ordnance
-Add 3 Ratling snipers.

GLs are 5 points each. Not 10. I might drop the 'Nade Launchers from the Command Squad. In total, the list should look like;

Company Command - 100 Points
Lascannon, Master of Ordnance

Ratlings (x3) - 30 Points

Marbo - 65 Points

Veteran Squad - 105 Points
x3 Grenade Launchers, Lascannon

Veteran Squad - 100 Points
x2 Grenade Launchers, Lascannon

Veteran Squad - 100 Points
x2 Grenade Launchers, Lascannon

Callistarius

2012-02-22, 03:43 AM

I quite like the rubric marine 1K son as base filler for one of the Thunderwolves :)

lord_khaine

2012-02-22, 05:50 AM

So, im having a 2 vs 2 fight tomorrow, where my Necrons is going to team up with some SM.

Unfortunately, the SM player seems a little confused about how to build his army, so could someone give some suggestions about good army picks, that i could then pass on?

Cheesegear

2012-02-22, 06:15 AM

Unfortunately, the SM player seems a little confused about how to build his army, so could someone give some suggestions about good army picks, that i could then pass on?

How many points? Model count? Playstyle?

Librarian with Null Zone and CotMS/Dome/Avenger.
TLAC Dreadnoughts
Irondrop Dreadnoughts with Heavy Flamers
Sternguard (no more than x7) with Lascannons or Missile Launchers
Suicide Sternguard

Tactical MSU Razorspam (Plasers for preference, otherwise TL Lascannons or Assault Cannons are fine.)
Plasmagun and Lascannon in Rhino or on foot.
Plasmagun and Plasma Cannon on foot.
Plasmagun/Meltagun and Multi-Melta in Rhino.

Combi-Flamers for Sergeants.

One squad of 10 Scouts with Rifles and Missile Launcher.
As many squads of 5 Scouts with Rifles and Missile Launchers as you can fit.
Scouts with Shotguns and Power Fist and Combi-Melta/Flamer in a Land Speeder Storm with Assault Cannon.

Land Speeder with Heavy Flamer and Multi-Melta
Land Speeder Typhoon
Assault Squad with two Flamers in a Drop Pod.

Dakkapreds
Autolas Preds
Devastators with x4 Missile Launchers
Thunderfire Cannons

I believe those are the best Codex Marine picks (some moreso than others).

lord_khaine

2012-02-22, 07:43 AM

How many points? Model count? Playstyle?

Dohh, cant belive i forgot to tell that.

We both have an army of 1500 points, and though i dont know what models he has, then i do know he has Space Marines for about 6000-7000 points worth of models at the least.

As for playstyle, then he does experiment a lot with his army, though he hasnt found something that works yet (he did lose the previous 3 of our 2 vs 2 battles).

Anyway, thanks for the info on good SM picks, it does look like he usualy takes a lot of the things from the list, so maybe he just need more tactical advice instead.

Hootman

2012-02-22, 11:03 AM

Hrm. I have been considering trying to get enough experience to write the Ork Review for this thread, but I'm not certain how best to go about it. I can't just build the "strongest" lists that the Codex can produce, obviously, but Orks are supposedly such a weak army outside of the 2-ish builds they're capable of fielding that I have a hard time working myself up into the right state of mind to go Waaagh!-ing off into continuous defeat. Of course, with my generally weird-as-the-Warp metagame, maybe I'd win with really unconventional lists? I don't know. I do love Da Boyz, despite their many faults, so I think I will try to get together some kind critique over the next span of game-time.

Does anyone have any suggestions for how I ought to go about doing this?

Wraith

2012-02-22, 12:03 PM

Just to play a lot of games, remember what happened and suggest whether or not it could go better. :smallsmile:

No one expects you to try eery unit with every possible combination of support and back up, but if you can use every unit at least once and make a note of what happens - "I did This, it seemed like a bad idea, try doing That instead" - then you're learning a little something about everything.

You COULD instead just open your Codex, start at HQ and work your way through with a critical analysis of what you're seeing, comparing it to other armies' equivalents and your own past experiences, but that is sometimes harder to justify without a LOT of experience.

Or mix the two. Tell us how to use the units your familiar with, and then explain why you don't use the others, or how you would use them if you could. 40k isn't an exact science, so anything you offer is welcome howeer you choose to present it. :smallbiggrin:

Cheesegear

2012-02-22, 04:29 PM

Anyway, thanks for the info on good SM picks, it does look like he usualy takes a lot of the things from the list, so maybe he just need more tactical advice instead.

It's not what he takes from 'that list' that matters, it's what he takes from it together. Remember 'one of everything' ends up being a hodgepodge of mess and isn't useful at all.

For example you can later whinge that you do have TLAC Dreadnoughts and Dakkapreds (both are things on the list), but ignoring the fact that you've got Dakka Dreads and Dakkapreds and no Autolas Preds and wondering why AV13 was giving you so many problems.

lord_khaine

2012-02-22, 06:36 PM

Hmm..

Well, his problems might be synergy issue's, but as i recall he usualy has a even mix of heavy weapons.

Still, the last 3 battles i had against him, then he had a couple of rounds of shooting, before he then got crushed in CC.

evisiron

2012-02-22, 07:21 PM

GLs are 5 points each. Not 10.

I know they are. You said you had 115 points to play with, my suggestions are 125, two 5pt grenade launchers cover the excess.

And yet the updated list checks out... :smallconfused:

Ah, I see what it was, you forgot to pay for grenade launchers in the command squad in your Core List, so the running total should have been 395 before suggestions.
Hmm, now I would say either keep it like that or ditch the Ratlings for some grenade launchers and voxs. I would tend to go Ratlings, just because they are so darn cool!

Cheesegear

2012-02-23, 06:28 AM

Does anyone have any suggestions for how I ought to go about doing this?

There's the hard and soft review. The 'hard' review is like

Warboss: A Warboss is always solid choice. At S/T 5 he isn't going anywhere anytime soon, and he'll take a Power Fist to the face and keep on Trukkin'. Unfortunately, his armour saves kind of suck and his weapon options aren't that great. But at 60 points, as well as making one unit of Nobz a Troops choice, he isn't a bad pick.

Choppa; Meh. You get to keep your I4. You're an IC, you're either going first or you go last with a bang.
Big Choppa; S7 is nice, or S8 (magic!) when Assaulting is good. But it isn't a Power Weapon which makes it kind of crap against anything that isn't a vehicle. If you need to be cheap, take this over the Choppa everytime, otherwise just get...
Power Klaw; Makes you S10 and gives you a Power Weapon. Since you're going last anyway (I4 IC, lol), and you've got max strength, you're a lot less reliant on Furious Charge than you otherwise might be. However, remember your saves suck so going last might not always be a good move.

...And so on. If you're truly dead set on the 'hard facts' review, it's probably better to write it in Notepad or Word over a couple of sessions and then copy-paste when you're finished. Or you can sit at your computer for five hours straight. I don't do that. I've got things to do.

The 'soft' review is;

Pros: All Orks have Furious Charge and lots of attacks. Which means you nearly always want to be in combat whenever you can help it. However, keep in mind that your Shooty units have the same amount of base attacks, and they've still got Furious Charge anyway. Yeah, Orks have BS2, but who cares? You've got a lot of shots and then you end up Assaulting anyway.

Cons: Orks have low armour, which means they're going to die in droves to Bolter fire. Bolter fire. Either this means investing in a lot of Boyz or Trukks and Battlewagons which can be pretty costly to the wallet.

You have to have Lootas. If you don't want them for whatever reason, your army wont be as good.

Should take you 10-20 minutes, depending on how fast you type.

Cheesegear

2012-02-23, 08:09 AM

Week One

This is my account of the Pacification of Alvarax, the following account is true to the best of my recollection.

The Pacification Order seemed routine. We were to drop down and crush all anti-Imperium sentiments are restore Order. Things went very differently. Almost as soon as we descended from orbit in our Valkyries, violent storms were sent up. Planet-wide, too. If auspex readings are correct. Apparently our navigation systems weren't worth the gruel it took to feed the Cogboys who made it. Our Valkyrie pilots immediately set down in an almost direct descent, fearing to pilot their 'birds' in the violent storm.

We lost contact with our frigate. If I knew procedure - and I did - our dropship wouldn't send any more landers without co-ordinates. And, given that our own pilots refused to set to wing again under the storm - even under duress, to which I give them credit. If it's a bad idea to fly in a storm, tell your Officer so. It speaks volumes to the Administratum that the Mordians don't use Commissars. Given the way our regimental doctrine operates, I'm sure the first time a Commissar tried to over-ride a Sergeant's orders, I'd find his Bolt Pistol in my hands and three reports from witnesses verifying that the Commissar had not been up to standard and had summarily executed himself. The Mordian Iron Guard are as disciplined as any Imperial Guard force in the galaxy and we don't need a Commissar to tell us.

All told, I have my personal staff, and approximately 30 men at my disposal, the ones first to the fray. I couldn't ask for better men. I also have the six Valkyrie pilots, who are essentially dead weight at present, and I'm sure the rest of the Company will begin to resent them in due course. If not for the Ratlings. I swear you can not get rid of the frakkin' things.

Three Ratlings were spotted in the gear almost as soon as it was unpacked. Ratlings, simultaneously hated and loved in every Mordian regiment I know of. First to find danger, and the first to run. Almost immediately setting up camp, the Ratlings began finding 'spare' Lasguns. Given their complete disregard for Mechanicus Protocols, I wasn't surprised that in a few hours we had three working Longlases. The Ratlings then began telling my men that they could 'improve' their guns too. However, we all know that's just an excuse to dismantle the weapons and leave them in a ditch with missing parts, and then to claim that they were never given the weapons in the first place. Still, they're our Ratlings. We Mordians will say what we will about Ratlings, but, if another world's regiment says the same, they tend to get the blue beating of Mordian. Ratlings or Human, the Regiment is the Regiment, and we stand by our own. Besides, Ratlings can even make rations taste good when it comes to billeting.

Within days of landing our Valkyries, a native came to our camp. He appeared out of nowhere and spooked half the men. He spoke Low Gothic and was impressed by our 'metal birds' and came to see what was going on. He obviously thinks we're here to save his planet. Which we are, I guess. In a way. He said he would guide us through the forest. He was capable enough. Rough around the edges, but a decent sort. At one point, he said he had found Ork spoor and immediately set to lighting it on fire. Something which most Imperial Guard do as a matter of course, but we hardly expected this Feral Worlder to know that. Evidently, Orks are problem on this world, and the natives have fought their kind many times fire is their main tool against Orks and the men quickly found our guide's proclivity for high-yield explosives extremely amusing. I guess as far as natives go, this one isn't too bad. The men started calling him 'Nate'. I don't know if this is an insult.

Today we found a black Pylon. Frak me if there isn't always a Pylon.

Colonel Artemis.
63rd Mordian Riflemen.

++Thought for the day; Frak Pylons!++

Squark

2012-02-23, 08:43 AM

... That was awesome, Cheesegear.

Ricky S

2012-02-24, 08:50 AM

So I had two games with my new guard army today. Both of them were against tau players. My demolisher didnt do much either game thanks to railguns but my basilisk was great, plinking away with indirect fire.

My veterans were great, shotguns and flamers rock, first game they took out 20 kroot and second game they took out a stealth team with drones and some fire warriors! The anti tank storm troopers I have are pretty neat too. They dropped down killed two crisis suits, a devilfish and were only 1" away from contesting the objective so they did pretty well.

The biggest problem in the second game was the enemy commander. First turn he was right up in my face thanks to dawn of war and he had hit and run. This lead to a game of him jumping around flaming and then assaulting my troops, slowly whittling them away while the rest of his army advanced. I think I got one turn to shoot at him and by that stage I only had a single infantry squad in line of sight.

HQ
CCS, plasma pistol, 2x plasma gun, medic, banner 135pts

Elite
Storm Troopers, 2x meltas 105pts

Troops
Veterans, 2x flamer, heavy flamer, bolt pistol, power sword, carapace 142pts

-PCS, 4x grenade launcher 50pts
-Infantry Squad, Sniper, Autocannon 65pts
-Infantry Squad, Sniper, Autocannon 65pts
-Infantry Squad, Sniper, Autocannon 65pts

Heavy Support
Demolisher, lascannon 180pts

Basilisk, Heavy Flamer 125pts

932pts (Short of the 1000pts we were playing but I hadnt built my other basilisk.

Things I have learnt:
-Orders are awesome!
-I need more anti tank...
-I need a counter assault unit/more firepower.
-Guard are super fun to play with because they are so relatable.

Cheesegear

2012-02-24, 10:32 AM

Orders are awesome!
I need more anti tank...
I need a counter assault unit/more firepower.
Guard are super fun to play with because they are so relatable.

Orders are awesome. One of the most broken things about Guard.
Guard need more anti-tank? That...Should never happen. Revise your list. If you see my 500 point list that I'm starting...Yesterday. 1000 points should be twice that. Whether in Infantry or vehicles of your own, anti-tank should never, ever, ever be a problem for Guard armies.
Guard don't have Assault units. Shoot, shoot and shoot again. If you think a unit of 50 Infantry is an 'Assault Unit', you're totally wrong.

Guard being relatable is the opposite of what GW wants. They can't sell "You suck, here's a jacket and a gun, try not to die." to 10 year olds. I've never found being able to relate to my army a significant draw anyway. But, if that's what you like...

Squark

2012-02-24, 10:44 AM

HQ
CCS, plasma pistol, 2x plasma gun, medic, banner 135pts Probbably fine.

Elite
Storm Troopers, 2x meltas 105pts Not sure about Storm Troopers. Something for the guard players to answer

Troops
Veterans, 2x flamer, heavy flamer, bolt pistol, power sword, carapace 142pts
Flamers on a foot squad? switch to lascannons or meltas, I think.
-PCS, 4x grenade launcher 50pts
-Infantry Squad, Sniper, Autocannon 65pts
-Infantry Squad, Sniper, Autocannon 65pts
-Infantry Squad, Sniper, Autocannon 65pts
Replace sniper rifle with lascannon
Heavy Support
Demolisher, lascannon 180pts
Seems reasonable
Basilisk, Heavy Flamer 125pts
I'll level with you. I have no idea what each Guard tank does (Aside from Chimeras and Lehman Russes) So I can't say for sure if this is wise or not.
932pts (Short of the 1000pts we were playing but I hadnt built my other basilisk.

Overall, you're a bit too focused on anti-infantry. You already have the laser light show for that. Beyond that, I defer to the judgement of people like Renegade Paladin and Cheesegear, who actually have the guard codex.

Guard being relatable is the opposite of what GW wants. They can't sell "You suck, here's a jacket and a gun, try not to die." to 10 year olds. I've never found being able to relate to my army a significant draw anyway. But, if that's what you like...

Guard are still the most human of the armies by a long shot. Sure the "Modern Militaries WISH they were this good" angle has been played up, but at the end of the day, a guardsman is still just some poor guy with a flashlight and a t-shirt* up against the worst the galaxy can throw at him. Well, now he's a badass who's in the same situation, but in WH40K, "Would be awesome in a 20th century war film" Just doesn't cut it.

Like you said, though, if it's what you like, who are we to argue?

*Flack armor and lasguns are endlessly mocked, for the confused.

Shovah

2012-02-24, 10:45 AM

... That was awesome, Cheesegear.

Quoting for truth.

More, please?

LeSwordfish

2012-02-24, 12:43 PM

*Flack armor and lasguns are endlessly mocked, for the confused.

My favourite 40K joke: What do you call a lasgun with a laser sight? Twin-linked.

Talkkno

2012-02-24, 03:10 PM

Guard being relatable is the opposite of what GW wants. They can't sell "You suck, here's a jacket and a gun, try not to die." to 10 year olds. I've never found being able to relate to my army a significant draw anyway. But, if that's what you like...

Then why is that the first Gaunt Ghosts book is one of the best selling of Black Libary books then? According to Abneet's intro in the 1st ommibus at any rate IRRC.

And I think your looking at it from the wrong angle, I like to think of it this way
"Though the artifices of evil are many, a bolter shell kills just as assuredly."

Renegade Paladin

2012-02-24, 03:35 PM

Overall, you're a bit too focused on anti-infantry. You already have the laser light show for that. Beyond that, I defer to the judgement of people like Renegade Paladin and Cheesegear, who actually have the guard codex.
I'd go with lascannons over autocannons. He can't actually directly replace the sniper rifles with lascannons, because each squad only has one heavy weapon slot and one special weapon slot; you can't have lascannon and autocannon in the same squad.

As for the storm troopers, in the setup he's got they're actually decent. They make for quasi-Suicide Sternguard, with rerollable Deep Strike scatter and two meltas in five bodies.

Elite_Lurker

2012-02-24, 04:08 PM

So I had two games with my new guard army today. Both of them were against tau players. My demolisher didnt do much either game thanks to railguns but my basilisk was great, plinking away with indirect fire.

As a Tau player, I've found two things that tend to stop Railguns.

1: Cover. Railguns only get one shot each per turn. If you can put your tanks 50% behind cover, then Railguns are a lot less threatening.

2: Invulnerable Saves. This doesn't apply to tanks, but units with Invulnerable saves have a reliable way to stop themselves from dying. As long as the infantry aren't your commanders, you've probably got enough bodies to not need to worry about one dying when he hits. Unless he's using Hammerhead submunitions, in which case, try to stay spread out or in cover.

LeSwordfish

2012-02-24, 04:56 PM

99% of IG fiction isnt about the endless hordes of expendables. Gaunts Ghosts, Ciaphas Cain, the Last Chancers and others are all about special people or special units. I see it as IG are relatable for the characters firstly. (And as anyone knows, when your commander goes down in the game, he's merely unconscious, whereas the enemy commander is never so lucky).

Secondly, people who choose armies for relatability are probably thinking of their own army as an elite Gaunts Ghosts sort of thing, more than the cannon fodder. The more specific GW get with guard, the less expendable and more important they are. None of the detail about individual regiments in the imperial guard codex is about that kind of thing, for example.

Tome

2012-02-24, 05:09 PM

Tychris1

2012-02-24, 05:13 PM

So, yesterday I played against a blood angels player yesterday, and normally he's a pretty layed back guy, but since my Tyranids always beat him he decided to get competitive and did Las Plas Razor Spam in a 1k game.

It was a thorough curb stomp. And now I understand why Tyranids suck and why I feel like stomping on all Razor back models.

Haruspex_Pariah

2012-02-25, 05:08 AM

Ricky S

2012-02-25, 10:14 AM

As a Tau player, I've found two things that tend to stop Railguns.

1: Cover. Railguns only get one shot each per turn. If you can put your tanks 50% behind cover, then Railguns are a lot less threatening.

2: Invulnerable Saves. This doesn't apply to tanks, but units with Invulnerable saves have a reliable way to stop themselves from dying. As long as the infantry aren't your commanders, you've probably got enough bodies to not need to worry about one dying when he hits. Unless he's using Hammerhead submunitions, in which case, try to stay spread out or in cover.

Cover is negated by markerlights. Stupid pathfinders.

Timberwolf

2012-02-25, 01:02 PM

Looks like they're finally releasing the Tervigon, Tyrannofex, and Swarmlord models. And also some of the Space Wolf wolf stuff (cyberwolf? cyberwolf!). Really, they should have been available when the codex was released. I guess that's good news for SW and Tyranid players. I had enough trouble assembling stock models, what more to say of conversions.

They're up today on GW's site, along with a few other interesting bits and bobs, like a shedload of new finecast, like a wolf lord on thunderwolf (How many wolf points can you make a wolf lord have BoSheck ?) and all the HQ units. And Bjorn. And a new model - Arjac Rockfist. If I didn't have a hammernator model for him, I'd be tempted.

Elite_Lurker

2012-02-25, 03:04 PM

Cover is negated by markerlights. Stupid pathfinders.

Ah yes, forgot. Well, I guess that makes the Pathfinders even more of a priority target.

Tome

2012-02-25, 03:22 PM

(How many wolf points can you make a wolf lord have BoSheck ?)

I believe it's ten wolf points in total for a fully wolfed Wolf Lord.

DaedalusMkV

2012-02-25, 03:32 PM

Ah yes, forgot. Well, I guess that makes the Pathfinders even more of a priority target.
QFT. If my Pathfinders haven't all been killed by my third shooting phase, I know that my opponent has no idea how Tau work and is going to be soundly beaten. IF you're playing against Tau, the single most important target on the field is their Pathfinders. Second most important depends entirely on the army you play.

Ricky S: The Ninja-commander you played against is an incredibly fragile tactic, for a few reasons. First, the absolute best defense such a Commander can have is 3+ Armour, 4+ Invulnerable and Feel No Pain, and if they're that well protected they probably cost somewhere in the realm of 150 points or more. They can't have Drones and they can't join units, so all you need to do is get a single Missile, Melta or Lascannon shot through his 4+ Invulnerable and he's quite dead. Even a Power Fist in the unit he's fighting will quickly end his sad little reign of terror. You don't need a combat monster unit to deal with him; a Veteran Squad with a Power Fist attached is more than enough. You ran into the one situation where such a Commander isn't a terrible idea; try playing against him in a Pitched Battle game, and I'm willing to bet your Demolisher and/or Melta drop squad will make short work of him.

Teln

2012-02-25, 04:01 PM

I believe it's ten wolf points in total for a fully wolfed Wolf Lord.

Wolf Lord--1 wolf point right there in the name.
2 Wolf Claws
Thunderwolf Mount
Wolftooth Necklace
Wolf Tail Talisman
Mark of the Wulfen
2 Fenrisian Wolves
Saga of the Wolfkin

10 in total, if you count Wulf as a variant spelling.

maglag

2012-02-25, 04:42 PM

They can't have Drones and they can't join units, so all you need to do is get a single Missile, Melta or Lascannon shot through his 4+ Invulnerable and he's quite dead. Even a Power Fist in the unit he's fighting will quickly end his sad little reign of terror. You don't need a combat monster unit to deal with him; a Veteran Squad with a Power Fist attached is more than enough. You ran into the one situation where such a Commander isn't a terrible idea; try playing against him in a Pitched Battle game, and I'm willing to bet your Demolisher and/or Melta drop squad will make short work of him.

I believe that's precisely the reason why he's charging in. You can't shoot into melee, and guard base S is 3, so their powerfists don't hit hard enough to cause instant death in a crisis suit. The commander has much better survival odds punching guardsmen than blocking tank shells with his face.

Squark

2012-02-25, 06:53 PM

I believe that's precisely the reason why he's charging in. You can't shoot into melee, and guard base S is 3, so their powerfists don't hit hard enough to cause instant death in a crisis suit. The commander has much better survival odds punching guardsmen than blocking tank shells with his face.

So, like we said one, of the few scenarios that's actually a valid tactic for. That being said, a Power fist is not something that a Battlesuit Commander is going to want to face even then. You're still wounding on a 2+, after all.

EDIT: Some Mathhammer I did out of boredom; The median scatter distance for deep striking is 6 inches, and the mean distances is 4.66666666... The obvious issue here is that this doesn't deal with direction as all which is a big part of deep striking. Still, 6 inches will put you in or out of assault range... So, yeah. Unassisted Deep Striking is dangerous. But we already knew that.

BoSheck

2012-02-25, 08:40 PM

How many wolf points can you make a wolf lord have BoSheck?

Ah yes, the acid test of wolf points.

Generally speaking I never counted entries more than once, but you could squeeze an extra wolf or two out in the naming process. If you're a heretic who doesn't love the Allfather.

For instance:
Wolf Lord Magni Wolfhowl - Thunderwolf Mount, Wolf Claw, 2x Fenrisian Wolves, Wolftail Talisman, Wolftooth Necklace. Runic Armor (more like Wolfic Armor). You give him a Storm Shield cause it synergizes with Thunder in wolves (storms have thunder!) and a Saga (I take Canis in order to get Wolfkin Sagas...I prefer Warrior Born on Claw Lords and Bear on Hammer Lords). Thats a good start, the wulfen isn't the way to go cause then your wolf gets all wolfed up.

Maybe if your wolf lord's Wolf Guard need to be a little Wolfier you might bring a Wulfen along.
Also: it's not just points on the lord that matter, you gotta wolf out that entire list!

So 5-7 Wolf points is optimal for a Herohammer HQ. Expect fewer in lesser units.

But, seriously, whether it's wanted or not, I'll throw out genuine advice for building Thunderwolf squads to those interested.

This is how I run my cavalry: 1x power fist, 1x storm shield, 1x with meltabombs, 1x with nothing. An incredible setup for 260 points. I could see putting 1 more shield in there on the fist...but eh. You can add in Wolf Lords for additional points (there are only two setups I care for with Lords, and one I gravitate towards. One is a Hammer Lord with Bear, and the one I prefer is a Claw Lord who sometimes has Warrior Born). You will ALWAYS spend the 20 points on the Fenrisian Wolves for additional wounds. Also cavalry aren't Monstrous Creatures, so it's easy to just put your leg and a wolf behind a rock and get some cover. And beware of buildings and ruins. BEWAAAARE.

Ricky S

2012-02-25, 10:38 PM

QFT. If my Pathfinders haven't all been killed by my third shooting phase, I know that my opponent has no idea how Tau work and is going to be soundly beaten. IF you're playing against Tau, the single most important target on the field is their Pathfinders. Second most important depends entirely on the army you play.

Ricky S: The Ninja-commander you played against is an incredibly fragile tactic, for a few reasons. First, the absolute best defense such a Commander can have is 3+ Armour, 4+ Invulnerable and Feel No Pain, and if they're that well protected they probably cost somewhere in the realm of 150 points or more. They can't have Drones and they can't join units, so all you need to do is get a single Missile, Melta or Lascannon shot through his 4+ Invulnerable and he's quite dead. Even a Power Fist in the unit he's fighting will quickly end his sad little reign of terror. You don't need a combat monster unit to deal with him; a Veteran Squad with a Power Fist attached is more than enough. You ran into the one situation where such a Commander isn't a terrible idea; try playing against him in a Pitched Battle game, and I'm willing to bet your Demolisher and/or Melta drop squad will make short work of him.

Unfortunately for me the way the game played out I just couldnt get a single shot off at him. It was dawn of war and he deployed him right on the line. There was a piece of terrain which completely blocked line of sight and in the first turn he moved up to it. He was out of line of sight for everything in my army.

I assaulted him with my command squad hoping to just tie him down for the rest of the game. It would have worked well but he had hit and run as well. He would jump out of combat at the end of my turn, then flame a unit and assault them. There was nothing I could do. By the time I did get a turn of shooting off at him the only thing which I had left to shoot at him was an infantry unit with an autocannon. He also had iridium armour so his save was 2+

Edit: As to being able to relate to my army it really is that I would be a grunt on the battlefield in the 40k universe. Humans fighting against an alien tide. I can see myself in that situation.

I wanted to start my guard army for two main reasons. One I watched starship troopers. Two I watched Generation Kill.

Cheesegear

2012-02-26, 12:34 AM

Well, I was feeling pretty good about myself for a while. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12767785&postcount=102) Right up until I found out that this will be there.

Big Mek - 85 Points
Kustom Force Field

Lootas (x6) - 90 Points

Ork Boyz (x10) - 110 Points
Shootas, Rokkit Launcha
Nob; Power Klaw, Bosspole

Ork Boyz (x10) - 110 Points
Shootas, Rokkit Launcha
Nob; Power Klaw, Bosspole

Ork Boyz (x10) - 105 Points
Shootas, Rokkit Launcha
Nob; Power Klaw

It's upsetting.

EDIT: While I'm on the horde train, I don't know if this will make an appearance, since I only just came up with it, but it still terrifies me and I don't want to verse it.

Tyranid Prime - 100 Points
Scything Talons, Boneswords, Adrenal Glands

Hive Guard (x2) - 100 Points
Hive Guard (x2) - 100 Points

Termagants (x10) - 50 Points
Termagants (x10) - 50 Points
Termagants (x10) - 50 Points
Termagants (x10) - 50 Points

Renegade Paladin

2012-02-26, 01:08 AM

KFF's a 5+ cover save, right? That you can make him reroll, right? I don't really see the problem.

Cheesegear

2012-02-26, 01:29 AM

KFF's a 5+ cover save, right? That you can make him reroll, right? I don't really see the problem.

Oh, Orders. Right. lol, broken.

maglag

2012-02-26, 05:23 AM

So, like we said one, of the few scenarios that's actually a valid tactic for. That being said, a Power fist is not something that a Battlesuit Commander is going to want to face even then. You're still wounding on a 2+, after all.

With 50% chance of hiting to start with, plus only 2 attacks in your average IG "sergeant", then 50% chance of punching trough the Inv. save, color me uninpressed. Your chances of actually killing the tau commander (4 wounds) with the power fist before he simply runs away to shoot and assault again are pretty much zero. Taking 1-2 wounds in melee is still preferable to being shot in the face by AT weapons.

Edit: As to being able to relate to my army it really is that I would be a grunt on the battlefield in the 40k universe. Humans fighting against an alien tide. I can see myself in that situation.

I wanted to start my guard army for two main reasons. One I watched starship troopers. Two I watched Generation Kill.
+1 to that. IG relate to the players because they're the only human one.

Hootman

2012-02-26, 11:09 AM

Oh, Orders. Right. lol, broken.

Also, he can only ever have one fearless squad, so your ratlings might actually do something. :smallamused:

Renegade Paladin

2012-02-26, 11:13 AM

Had a game yesterday. Doubles, mechanized Guard and Iron Warriors Chaos against Ravenwing and Eldar, 1500 points per player. We rolled out of Battle Missions and got the Surprise Attack one from the Space Marine section. Guard and Chaos were the defenders.

We got roflstomped. For those unfamiliar, the scenario requires the defenders to hold nothing in reserve, set up at least 12" from any table edge, and place no units within 6" of each other. With three thousand points of tanks, we basically had to set up in a grid pattern. The rules allow the attacker to come on from any table edge and automatically gives them first turn, so they brought almost everything on one of the short table edges and proceeded to eat through our armies. The only exception to the strategy was the war walkers the Eldar player left in reserve and brought on the opposite short table edge to take our armor, which had turned around to engage the bulk of their forces, in the rear.

It was not the lamest game I've ever played, but that's only because I once had to deal with Thunderwolves with Outflank. :smallsigh: Whoever designed that mission is an idiot.

Timberwolf

2012-02-26, 12:35 PM

It was not the lamest game I've ever played, but that's only because I once had to deal with Thunderwolves with Outflank. :smallsigh: Whoever designed that mission is an idiot.

You try playing a story themed apoc game against Nids with endless swarm where houserules say you can bring a Bio Titan back next turn, exactly where it died with full wounds. Where there are 2 of the wretched things and you can't bring your own titans back. Oh, and your deployment zone is getting smaller every turn because the nids are pushing their DZ forward and you were forced to hold over 50% of your army in reserve until turn 3.

Good thing it was an apoc game and therefore as much an excuse to meet up with friends and mock the local blackshirt when he poked his nose around the door.

evisiron

2012-02-26, 04:24 PM

You will ALWAYS spend the 20 points on the Fenrisian Wolves for additional wounds. Also cavalry aren't Monstrous Creatures, so it's easy to just put your leg and a wolf behind a rock and get some cover.

Of course! That is a valuable nugget of information indeed.
I might be using Space Wolves or fighting alongside Space Wolves for a doubles tournament, and going extremely Thunderwolf heavy. If there are any other tips for using Thunderwolves and Wolf Lords, I'd be an eager reader. :smallsmile:

Ricky S

2012-02-26, 05:02 PM

You try playing a story themed apoc game against Nids with endless swarm where houserules say you can bring a Bio Titan back next turn, exactly where it died with full wounds. Where there are 2 of the wretched things and you can't bring your own titans back. Oh, and your deployment zone is getting smaller every turn because the nids are pushing their DZ forward and you were forced to hold over 50% of your army in reserve until turn 3.

Good thing it was an apoc game and therefore as much an excuse to meet up with friends and mock the local blackshirt when he poked his nose around the door.

That sounds a bit lame to me. If they want to use the endless swarm rule it should only be for smaller things. Ie Not bio titans or hive tyrants, maybe not trygons. Having to face a bio titan again from the exact same spot is dumb. You might as well not even have shot it.

The last apoc game I played was similar. I had finally broken through a chaos section with my blood angels and killed them all, when they announce all dead things can come back as reinforcements. It was completely pointless. I had to face the exact same army again only with half of what I had started with.

I must say space wolves are looking mighty cool now with those new plastic thunderwolves. I am tempted to run a canis wolfborn army. Damn you GW for bringing out cool things *shakes fist

evisiron

2012-02-26, 05:19 PM

Assault on Arkham tournament mini write up time! The missions overlaid two sets of objectives, a primary for 8 points and secondary for 4. VP difference accounts for up to 8 points, giving you a Battle Score between 0 and 20.

This was the first outing for my Sanguinauts (grubby orange Blood Angels), with the following 1850 list:
HQ1: The Sanguinor, Exemplar of the Host

HQ2: Librarian, Bolt Pistol, Jump pack, Psychic Power – Shield of Sanguinius , Psychic Power – Unleash Rage

HQ-: Honour Guard, Jump Packs, 4x Melta Gun, Bolt Pistols

ELITE1: 1xSanguinary Priest , Jump Pack ,

TROOP1: Assault Squad , +5 Space Marines , 2x Melta gun, Sergeant’s Power Fist, Sergeant’s Inferus Pistol

TROOP2: Assault Squad , +5 Space Marines , 2x Melta gun, Sergeant’s Power Fist

TROOP3: Assault Squad , +5 Space Marines , 2x Melta gun, Sergeant’s Power Fist

TROOP4: Scout Squad , Missile Launcher, Camo Cloaks

FA1: Baal Predator, Flamestorm Cannon, Dozer Blade

FA2: Vanguard Veteran Squad (5 man), jump packs, replace Model A’s bolt pistol with stormshield, replace Model B’s chainsword with stormshield, replace Model C’s chainsword with Power weapon, replace Sergeant’s power weapon with Power Fist

Round 1: Chaos Space Marines - Iron Warriors
Enemy list: 4 squads in Rhino's, double lash princes, 8 Obliterators, 3 termies, Land Raider.

It's pitched battle so I hold everything bar the scouts in reserve, and dump the scouts on an objective.

With my usual poor reserve rolls, only the Assault squads and attached IC's showed up at the start (Note to self: less comfortable chairs in Veteran Lounge). I combat squad them up and while literally every unit scatters, no-one goes far enough to mishap, meaning I have dropped the guts of my army in the corner of his deployment zone where only a fraction of his force can draw line of sight. Shield protects me from the worst of the fire and through my turns I churn through his units a handful at a time until the game ends with me holding almost all of the objectives.

The Sanguinor got to fight a Daemon Prince and tore the warp filth apart. As the game progressed he became known as "1 higher than you guy" among spectators as his stats seemed to always be one better than his opponents. :smallsmile:

A big victory to start the day!

Result: 18-2

Round 2: Dark Eldar
Yay, Kill points for primary!
His list: Ummm, it was venom spam, 23 KP, blasters and hellions everywhere.

Once again I hold back for deep striking in. With primarily melta, if I don’t catch them on the drop, I’ll never catch them. And basically the game goes with me dropping in, trying to kill transports, him zipping away and unleashing a hell of poisoned craziness my way. Melta guns could rip through these paper airplanes if not for those damnable 5+ saves!
By the end my force is nearly wiped out, but they press on regardless. I end up catching a few guys in a last desperate reaching charge, which sets our kill points equal and has me sitting contesting both objectives. Ahahaha, my force is practically tabled but I still drag out a draw on both Primary and Secondary!

Result: 8-12

Round 3: Grey Knights
His list: 3 Units of termies in 2 Stormravens with a grand master and a Librarian, and 2 dreads magnetised to the ships.

As always, I drop in everything, same reason as before. I swarm the lonely Raven while the Sanguinor drops in to attack the objective sitting unit. I fail to ding the paint on the raven despite 7 melta shots, and the contents hop out and start eating units. The termies across the board flee from the Sanguinor, but he catches them with a good terrain roll… and only kills one. 6 Wounds, 5 passed Invulnerable saves. This continues until a dread is dropped off and ties up the Sanguinor, until said Dread crushes him like a Christmas tree ornament.

Result: Tabled 0-20

Round 4: Grey Knights, a different one.
His List: Ah, Coteaz, I didn’t think I could slip past you. Also Grey Knights in Rhinos, another Inquistitor, 3x Psifleman Dreads, Purifier Squad etc etc. Warp Quake and I've Been Expecting You everywhere. :smalleek:

There is a nice big mountain in the centre, so after he deploys I run a denied flank. It works well and chew through his units at a fair rate. The Librarian is worth his weight in jewel studded MegaGold as his Magic Hat swats the powers to the ground one after another. His reigns in my crazy lead near the end, but the game is mine.

Result: 14-6

Round 5: Orks
Ouch, it had to be, didn’t it? A taste of my own medicine as my Sanguinauts face off against their predecessor. His is a Kan Wall list, 4 meaty units of boys, 2x KFF Meks, 9 Killa Kans and 2 units of Lootas.

I deploy on the ground and lure him into a bottleneck, and risk it all on one manoeuvre. If I can drop the leading unit of Kans the wreckage will hinder the rest of the force and I can hit them one at a time with everything I’ve got.
Sadly, my short range melta torrent bounces off with two shaken results (ignored) and a weapon destroyed. My force gets pinned down, and while I fight to the last, there is no hope to be had.
I had two models left at the end though, so at least I didn’t get tables and took a pile of them with me!

Result: 2-18

Overall:
2 wins, a draw and 2 loses. My normal result with the Orks and it carried over to here. I didn't expect to 'break even' on the my tournament with these guys, so I've pretty pleased. :smallsmile:

In hindsight, my army can snag objectives but came up low on victory points. It seems I need more to kill units outright than just the Sanguinor.
A great tourney, fun games against great opponents who knew their stuff through and through.

Timberwolf

2012-02-26, 07:29 PM

That sounds a bit lame to me. If they want to use the endless swarm rule it should only be for smaller things. Ie Not bio titans or hive tyrants, maybe not trygons. Having to face a bio titan again from the exact same spot is dumb. You might as well not even have shot it.

The last apoc game I played was similar. I had finally broken through a chaos section with my blood angels and killed them all, when they announce all dead things can come back as reinforcements. It was completely pointless. I had to face the exact same army again only with half of what I had started with.

Yes, that was exactly it. We must have killed the Doom of Malantai 5 times. And down at the other end of the table, the Endless Swarm of Orks and Chaos with the Imperials and Eldar getting increasingly squished in the middle because we kept making our saves (HA HA HA HA !) Equal laughter was deployed when our Nid opponents mycetic spored in all those Zoanthropes thinking they were so clever only to find out that we had Eldrad and 5 other Farseers spread about with Runes of Warding. Of course, they came back next turn, but you can't have everything I guess.

evisiron

2012-02-27, 07:40 PM

Hmm, is 195 points in a 1500pt game too pricey to give Thunerwolves and attached IC's Infiltrate?

TechnoScrabble

2012-02-27, 07:47 PM

Anyone here play Deathwatch?

Teln

2012-02-27, 07:49 PM

Hmm, is 195 points in a 1500pt game too pricey to give Thunderwolves and attached IC's Infiltrate?

How in the Emperor's name are you doing this?

Renegade Paladin

2012-02-27, 07:50 PM

Hmm, is 195 points in a 1500pt game too pricey to give Thunerwolves and attached IC's Infiltrate?
This is a win button. If you can do it, your opponent should punch you in the face.

Timberwolf

2012-02-27, 07:54 PM

This is a win button. If you can do it, your opponent should punch you in the face.

How is it done ? (can't go delving in the codex atm)

Renegade Paladin

2012-02-27, 08:00 PM

How is it done ? (can't go delving in the codex atm)
I don't know how he's doing it. Planetary Empires rules allow for it via owning a command bastion and using the special rule it allows you to give for that purpose. But I don't know any ruleset that allows just coughing up points for it.

At any rate, it absolutely should not be done. There is nothing less fun than a unit of Thunderwolves with a Thunderwolf-mounted Wolf Lord with Saga of the Warrior Born multiassaulting half your deployment zone the turn they arrive.

BoSheck

2012-02-27, 09:55 PM

Hmm, is 195 points in a 1500pt game too pricey to give Thunerwolves and attached IC's Infiltrate?

No real way to do it in the Space Wolf Codex. That is, however, he exact cost of Shrike. I presume you have some special way to get him.

2 things: Infiltrate's maximum range is 18 inches. Thunderwolf cavalry's (if Shrike leaves them) minimum charge range is 19 inches.

You won't make any friends, but you'll probably sweep every game you go first unless your opponents reserve everything and give you turns to move the rest of your army up to support the monsters...which increases your odds of winning anyway.

Renegade Paladin

2012-02-27, 10:21 PM

No real way to do it in the Space Wolf Codex. That is, however, he exact cost of Shrike. I presume you have some special way to get him.

2 things: Infiltrate's maximum range is 18 inches. Thunderwolf cavalry's (if Shrike leaves them) minimum charge range is 19 inches.

You won't make any friends, but you'll probably sweep every game you go first unless your opponents reserve everything and give you turns to move the rest of your army up to support the monsters...which increases your odds of winning anyway.
Indeed. The only way to stop Thunderwolves is to either trick them into assaulting something scarier than they are (read: Abaddon, because there's not much else) or to drop S10 on them before they get into assault, because once there, they're staying there; they'll bounce from assault to assault and never get shot at again. If they're not shot at in the first place, 260 points of Thunderwolves will clean up an entire 1500 point army by themselves.

Squark

2012-02-27, 11:09 PM

Indeed. The only way to stop Thunderwolves is to either trick them into assaulting something scarier than they are (read: Abaddon, because there's not much else) or to drop S10 on them before they get into assault, because once there, they're staying there; they'll bounce from assault to assault and never get shot at again. If they're not shot at in the first place, 260 points of Thunderwolves will clean up an entire 1500 point army by themselves.

Or squeeze your entire army onto the second and third floor (first and second for those outside the US) of a ruin. But this is probably a bad idea for different reasons.

Tychris1

2012-02-27, 11:27 PM

Or squeeze your entire army onto the second and third floor (first and second for those outside the US) of a ruin. But this is probably a bad idea for different reasons.

This has actually started up quite a argument between me and a Blood Angels player when he told me that my Trygon Prime could not assault the Space Marines inside of the ruins since they occupied the second and third floor. Eventually after enough arguing (And pointing out how the Trygons head literally puts it at FACE VALUE of the second floor) the topic eventually changed to how ruins are not buildings and thus couldn't be assaulted/destroyed (The one trump card for my Trygon in a last ditch effort to kill those damned marines). But nope, monstrous creatures are useless end of story.

BoSheck

2012-02-27, 11:32 PM

Or squeeze your entire army onto the second and third floor (first and second for those outside the US) of a ruin. But this is probably a bad idea for different reasons.

Yes. Beasts, Cavalry, and Monstrous Creature rapidly lose value the more buildings/multi-level ruins you happen to play with.

Cheesegear

2012-02-28, 01:26 AM

Anyone here play Deathwatch?

Yes. I absolutely love the 40K setting (as it is meant to be, not what we see in Codecies and the 5th Ed. novels), and Dark Heresy lets you live in that. Deathwatch, has all the same fluff and flavour of DH, except you don't die in one shot and the psyker's head doesn't explode in the first five minutes of the first gaming session.

However, if you're asking us to pirate or point you in the direction of a pirated copy of any of the books like you did in the Fluff Thread; the answer is a definite 'No.'.

Ricky S

2012-02-28, 01:52 AM

Yes. Beasts, Cavalry, and Monstrous Creature rapidly lose value the more buildings/multi-level ruins you happen to play with.

At my local gw we all play it that trygons can assault a unit in a building. Due to its sheer size it makes sense that it can assault through windows even if its base is not on the same floor

For a thunderwolf army I would suggest using longfangs. So even if your opponent doesnt deploy on ground level you can still put the hurt on him.

TechnoScrabble

2012-02-28, 07:29 AM

Yes. I absolutely love the 40K setting (as it is meant to be, not what we see in Codecies and the 5th Ed. novels), and Dark Heresy lets you live in that. Deathwatch, has all the same fluff and flavour of DH, except you don't die in one shot and the psyker's head doesn't explode in the first five minutes of the first gaming session.

However, if you're asking us to pirate or point you in the direction of a pirated copy of any of the books like you did in the Fluff Thread; the answer is a definite 'No.'.

I have the book now, actually. Just wondering if anyone would like to GM a game and help me learn how to play.

Tome

2012-02-28, 08:01 AM

I have the book now, actually. Just wondering if anyone would like to GM a game and help me learn how to play.

Completely the wrong thread for that. Stick to asking in the Finding Players (Recruitment) forum. :smallwink:

BoSheck

2012-02-28, 10:29 AM

For a thunderwolf army I would suggest using longfangs. So even if your opponent doesnt deploy on ground level you can still put the hurt on him.

This comes down to a pretty basic tenet of the game that I see abandoned, expecially in discussion: No piece of an army operates in a vacuum. Most often with "I like unit X!" "Well my unit Y beats that automatically."

A good balanced list with pieces working in synergy and supporting each other, combined with good generalship (and a little bit of luck) is what wins games.

For example: you're going to be hard pressed to find any Wolf army that doesn't have a unit or two of long fangs--they're so cheap it's practically criminal and the fluff compliments the mechanics; these are the guys who make sure the big gribblies don't eat your fellows doing the heavy lifting midfield.

evisiron

2012-02-28, 11:49 AM

Hmm, is 195 points in a 1500pt game too pricey to give Thunerwolves and attached IC's Infiltrate?

As for how it's done, it is indeed Shrike being stuck in the unit for the aforementioned doubles tournament.

It seemed like one of those things that looks great on paper but could fall down in actual gameplay. I know it'll be good, but since each for only gets 750pts (split FO chart) I was pondering if 195 was too much for the special ability, especially since the tournament is rife with multi story ruins and the frequency of Choosers Of The Slain and Servo Skulls bouncy around messing up infiltrate.

My thoughts now turn to what else to take in the Space Marine side? Popping transports will be vital, the best I have so far is:
-10 Scouts, Missile Launcher, Melta Bombs
-Shrike
-Predator, Lascannon sponsons, autocannon turret
-2x Landspeeder typhoons
-1x Landspeeder typhoon with multi melta

I was looking at triple predators, but it only takes one central bit of terrain to scupper LoS, while the 'speeders are nice and mobile.

Any other ideas?

TechnoScrabble

2012-02-28, 11:57 AM

Completely the wrong thread for that. Stick to asking in the Finding Players (Recruitment) forum. :smallwink:

I did. A day or two ago. One other person posted. 'Swhy I asked.

Squark

2012-02-28, 11:59 AM

This is still the sort of thing that can easily get both you and your partner the reputation as "That guy", which isn't something you want. That being said, you're probably going to want some template weapons to take advantage of the enemies who are packed onto the upper floors while they cower in fear of your wolf-based deathstar.

BoSheck

2012-02-28, 01:32 PM

As for how it's done, it is indeed Shrike being stuck in the unit for the aforementioned doubles tournament.

It seemed like one of those things that looks great on paper but could fall down in actual gameplay. I know it'll be good, but since each for only gets 750pts (split FO chart) I was pondering if 195 was too much for the special ability, especially since the tournament is rife with multi story ruins and the frequency of Choosers Of The Slain and Servo Skulls bouncy around messing up infiltrate.

My thoughts now turn to what else to take in the Space Marine side? Popping transports will be vital, the best I have so far is:
-10 Scouts, Missile Launcher, Melta Bombs
-Shrike
-Predator, Lascannon sponsons, autocannon turret
-2x Landspeeder typhoons
-1x Landspeeder typhoon with multi melta

I was looking at triple predators, but it only takes one central bit of terrain to scupper LoS, while the 'speeders are nice and mobile.

Any other ideas?

Pod dread? Space wolves have a lack of Ironclads and I've always been of the opinion an ironclad (with meltaguns!) or two in pods would have roughly the same effect as logan+multimelta long fangs but a bit cheaper, albeit a little more vulnerable to meltaguns. You could opt for heavy flamers too--you know your meta better than I do. The assumption is lots of melta toting MSU in rhinos, of course.

On LoS and predators: Those guntanks can still move around that LoS blocking terrain! Multimelta/typhoon speeders are 100 in C:SM, aren't they? That feels steep. Auto/Las predator is probably the way to go.

Hazzardevil

2012-02-28, 04:09 PM

Renegade Paladin

2012-02-28, 04:16 PM

2. How do you get the Rail Gun? It is in the Armoury but is mentioned nowhere else and has no point cost anywhere.
You take something that can take a railgun as wargear. Broadsides and Hammerheads come immediately to mind.

Timberwolf

2012-02-28, 04:19 PM

evisiron

2012-02-28, 05:10 PM

Timberwolf

2012-02-28, 05:27 PM

As for EMP, with such effective ranged anti tank firepower, the Tau shouldn't have to reply on sticking grenades to tanks, so again I would pass them over for the most part.

This is true, they are only really useful against Dreadnoughts and Walkers, since they will be assaulting into cover and even then, really only a Blood Angels Player will find a bunch of Firewarriors to be anything other than a tarpit for his Dreadnought since most Dreads can only swing with a relatively small number of attacks. It's up to you really, if you're expecting to play someone like me who runs gunships and dreadnoughts, they could be worth it. For everyone else, probably not. Of course, this is what happened last time I ran my Moriar the Chosen (old special character Dreadnought that I built a model for - I use him as a Talon Dread) into a bunch of Firewarriors.

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p75/dwgh/268834_222838947751108_194103793957957_696986_3370 939_n.jpg

Tome

2012-02-28, 05:58 PM

Although I have a few questions:
1. What is Strategy Rating? It was removed in Errata, but it still interests me.
2. How do you get the Rail Gun? It is in the Armoury but is mentioned nowhere else and has no point cost anywhere.
3. Are Grenades any good or should I leave them?

1. Absolutely no idea. Something from 4th edition I guess, but I never played 4th.

2. Check the default equipment for Broadsides. Then check the options on the Hammerhead. Bear in mind that there are slight differences in functionality between the two.

3. No, they're not, for a variety of reasons. The first being that Fire Warriors are basically going to die no matter what if something assaults them. The only exception is a Walker of some sort assaulting into cover against a unit with EMP grenades - which shouldn't ever happen because your opponent will know what the unit has in advance. Relying on your opponent to make a mistake is a very bad tactic.

That aside, I've got some good news and bad news about playing Tau.

Well, mostly bad news actually. :smallfrown:

Tau are currently the worst army in the game. Most of the units are terrible, the codex is hideously outdated, everything is badly overpriced and half the wargear and special rules are no longer relevant. There is exactly one way to build an army to have a chance of winning, and even then you have to be prepared to really work for it. In particular, your entire army will basically evaporate if the enemy can get into assault with it. Yes, even the Kroot.

Good news... well, I suppose they still do pretty good in really ultra-casual environments. Railguns, which is to say Broadsides, are still one of the best anti-tank units in the game. You're about 20% cooler than every other army though, which sort of makes up for some of the suckiness. :smallwink:

Here's a run-down of the good, the bad, and the ugly in the Tau Codex.The Good
Broadsides & Hammerheads - Still some of the best anti-tank units in the game. Well, it's more like Railguns are good, actually. But Hammerheads and Broadsides are a pretty good chassis to mount them on too. Broadsides are notably better value, but you should probably take a Hammerhead or two as well - they're not much worse and are one of the few ways to get a large Blast into your army for dealing with horde armies like Orks. All three of your Heavy Support slots should contain one of these if you have even the vaguest intention of trying to win, no matter the game size. Without a doubt, the best unit the codex.
Crisis Suits - Jump Shoot Jump (JSJ) is still a functioning tactic, whereby you move out from behind some LoS blocking terrain in the movement phase, shoot during the shooting phase, then use your Jetpack move to move back into cover during the assault phase. The standard load-out is two different guns and a Multi-Tracker. Sometimes switched for two of the same gun and a Targeting Array. Either way, Plasma Rifles and Missile Pods are the guns to take. Probably the second best unit in the codex, the other units I have listed in this section aren't so much 'good' as they are 'usable'.
Crisis Commanders - See what I said about Crisis Suits? Yeah, that still applies. You must take at least one Crisis Commander in every list list, but unlike the other mandatory stuff in the codex, Crisis Commanders are actually good.
Piranhas - They're Fast Skimmers with a Meltagun Fusion Blaster on the front. That's pretty good. Their primary use, however, if that they make an excellent defensive wall to block enemy assault units - just so long as they move Flat Out every turn and always keep their Front Armour facing the enemy anti-tank.
Kroot - They're cheap. And that's about it, really. Put them in cover so their lack of armour save doesn't matter. Ring them around your more valuable units to buy them an extra turn before the enemy gets into assault. Also, point-for-point their weight of fire makes them just as good at shooting as Fire Warriors. Kroot Hounds are worth adding if you have the points, but Shapers are a big no-no. Pretty much everything ignore a 6+ save, and Kroot are only good when they're cheap.
Pathfinders - They have Markerlights. That's good. You have to take a Devilfish for them. That's bad. Doesn't matter that they have no use for a Devilfish, they must take one because the rules say so. This drives the price up. Fortunately, you can just let your mandatory Fire Warrior unit ride around in the Pathfinders Devilfish. Rail Rifles are a personal choice thing.

The Bad

Fire Warriors - S5 shooting at 30" is pretty good. Unfortunately, BS3 is pretty bad for a shooting unit, considering how much each one costs. Imperial Guard can manage with BS3 by being dirt cheap. Fire Warriors are not cheap. But you have to take one unit of them. It's mandatory, in the rules, etc. Let them ride in the Pathfinders equally-mandatory Devilfish and use them hold objectives.
Stealth Suits - Stealth Fields and Jet Packs are good. Only having guns that require them to get into the range where the enemy can shoot them anyway? That's bad. Also hideously overpriced.
Skyrays - You know how Railguns are the best things in the codex and basically the only thing that let's us Tau have even a hope of victory? Well guess where every Railgun-carrying unit lives? That's right, in the Heavy Support section. Skyrays do not carry Railguns, which means that every HS slot spent on a Skyray, is one not spent on Railguns. Their firepower also tends to be distinctly unimpressive for their cost.
Gun Drones - Yeah. Like a more mobile Firewarrior with even worse aim, less shots and less range. Which is kind of... really bad.
Sniper Drone Teams - Rail Rifles are kind of nice. But their range? On a stationary unit? Not so great. And they're still taking up a HS slot that could be used for something with an actual Railgun.

The Ugly
Ethereals - It's a trap! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piVnArp9ZE0) Yes, it's only 50 points. That's 50 points you're paying to have half your army run off the board when he dies. And, being both incredibly fragile and a massive target, he will die.
Vespid - Their guns are nice. They're also pretty fast. But they have to get into assault range to fire and they're unbelievably fragile. Which means that they will die. Quickly. And for something that costs as many points as they do, that's bad.
Shadowsun/Farsight/Aun'Va - Special Characters? What are those? Tau don't have any special characters. Or, at least, any who aren't horribly crippling. Aun'Va is like a pumped-up Ethereal, and bad for exactly teh same reasons. Farsight prevents you from taking many of the units you need to win. Shadowsun is the best of the lot - by which I mean she doesn't actively make your army worse - but she's still a Tau character wielding nothing more than two extremely short-ranged guns.

The thing you may notice about the above list, is that you pretty much only have one or two valid choices for each slot. Your list is basically already written for you. Just remember to keep everything as cheap as you possibly can and the wargear to the absolute minimum you can get away with.

Even if you build the best list possible with Tau, your chances of victory are still pretty low. All but the slightest concessions to fluff will mercilessly reduce those already slim odds. If this bothers you, I'd advise learning how to play with a different army.

If I haven't managed to discourage you yet, then welcome to the few, the proud. Welcome, Shas'la, to the Greater Good. :smallbiggrin:

Wraith

2012-02-28, 06:35 PM

Although I have a few questions:
1. What is Strategy Rating? It was removed in Errata, but it still interests me.

At the start of the game you and your opponent roll a dice, and whoever rolls the highest gets to choose whether they set up first/takes the first turn, or set up second/go second and try to Seize The Initiative.

In 4th Edition, you would add your army's Strategy Rating to the roll so that 'intelligent' and 'strategic' armies like Eldar were more likely to get to make the choice, compared to 'chaotic' armies like Orks. Certain scenarios would also make use of it as a limit on some units - for example, if you had a Strategy Rating of 4, you could only hold up to 4 units in reserve, and other annoying little gimmicks like that.

So in other words - ignore it. It no longer has anything to do with the game. :smallsmile:

Ricky S

2012-02-29, 12:16 AM

Hi, I'm a tau player and next weekend I will be going with a friend to a games workshop tournament. Now I haven't played Warhammer much before, but I have a grasp on the rules.

Unlike most people who start 40K, (so I'm told) I didn't start with Space Marines, I started with Tau, i got a mostly complete Tau Battleforce and a box to keep it in (One of those briefcase sort of things) for £25.
I got in it the following:
Tau Codex,
2 Crisis Battlesuits,
Devilfish,
8 Kroot, (I can't use these because you need at least 10 Kroot in a squad)
11 Fire Warriors,
6 Gun Drones,
1 Shield Drone
and 1 Markerlight Drone.

I also have 3 stealth suits.

Here's My current Army List:

HQ
Commander Tau Shas'O - 89? Points
Stimulant Injector (Gives feel no pain), Rail Gun, Flamer (twin-linked)

Body Guard Suit Shas'vre - 35 Points
(Needs 3 weapon or support systems)
ELITES
Stealth Team Shas'ui 2, Shas'vre - Points 100

TROOPS
Fire Warrior Team 10 Shas'la, Shas'ui 1 - Points 120

Devilfish Troop Carrier - Points 100
smart missile weapon system
FAST ATTACK

Total: 444 Points

Although I have a few questions:
1. What is Strategy Rating? It was removed in Errata, but it still interests me.
2. How do you get the Rail Gun? It is in the Armoury but is mentioned nowhere else and has no point cost anywhere.
3. Are Grenades any good or should I leave them?

2. You cannot take the railgun on a commander, unfortunately.
3. Leave them unless you have a counter assault unit. Which tau never should have so you never should have grenades.

When writing army lists dont put the individual costs of each item.

Now to your army.

-I suggest giving your commander a shield generator for a 4+ invulnerable save in higher point games.
-I suggest giving your crisis suits this combo: Plasma Gun, Missile Pod, Multitracker. This is the best setup that crisis suits can take. Check all the forums.
-Always take a disruption pod on all of your vehicles. It means that you always count as being obscured if the enemy is more than 12 inches away so you always get a 4+ cover save.
-Give your firewarrior shas ui a bonding knife. That way they can regroup if they are falling back even if they are under half strength.

Your army might look something like this.

-Shas'O, Stimulant injector, twinlinked flamer, 94pts
Bodyguard plasma gun, missile pod, multitracker72pts
-Stealth Team Shas'ui 2, Shas'vre - Points 100
-Firewarriorsx 10, Shas Ui Bonding Knife - 115pts
-Devilfish, smart missile system, disruption pod, multitracker - 115pts
496pts

Cheesegear

2012-02-29, 03:34 AM

-I suggest giving your crisis suits this combo: Plasma Gun, Missile Pod, Multitracker. This is the best setup that crisis suits can take. Check all the forums.

Correct, with one addendum; On a few of your 'Suits (assuming you have 8 or 9 like you should) it's worth having a Burst Cannon. Something like 2/3:1.

Hazzardevil

2012-02-29, 12:35 PM

Correct, with one addendum; On a few of your 'Suits (assuming you have 8 or 9 like you should) it's worth having a Burst Cannon. Something like 2/3:1.
I thought there was a limit, something like 3 per army? Also, I own 2 Battle-suits.

-I suggest giving your commander a shield generator for a 4+ invulnerable save in higher point games.
-I suggest giving your crisis suits this combo: Plasma Gun, Missile Pod, Multitracker. This is the best setup that crisis suits can take. Check all the forums.
-Always take a disruption pod on all of your vehicles. It means that you always count as being obscured if the enemy is more than 12 inches away so you always get a 4+ cover save.
-Give your firewarrior shas ui a bonding knife. That way they can regroup if they are falling back even if they are under half strength.

Your army might look something like this.

-Shas'O, Stimulant injector, twinlinked flamer, 94pts
Bodyguard plasma gun, missile pod, multitracker72pts
-Stealth Team Shas'ui 2, Shas'vre - Points 100
-Firewarriorsx 10, Shas Ui Bonding Knife - 115pts
-Devilfish, smart missile system, disruption pod, multitracker - 115pts
496pts

Does anyone know when Tau will get another codex? Since as far as I know only Tau and Necrons don't have codex's. (Okay, Necron's do have a codex, but it was written by Anti-Christ, AKA Matt Ward)

Also, what are so good about Pathfinders? All I see are an extra 6 inches of movement on the first turn for more points with a worse gun.
And will I be allowed to use Fire Warrior figures for Pathfinders?

deuterio12

2012-02-29, 01:13 PM

Does anyone know when Tau will get another codex? Since as far as I know only Tau and Necrons don't have codex's. (Okay, Necron's do have a codex, but it was written by Anti-Christ, AKA Matt Ward)

Tau aren't geting a new codex any time soon. Rumors are that chaos is next, and you can bet in between two more SM variants will be released, because it isn't GW if half the codexes aren't SM.

Also, what are so good about Pathfinders? All I see are an extra 6 inches of movement on the first turn for more points with a worse gun.
And will I be allowed to use Fire Warrior figures for Pathfinders?

Markerlights. They're one of the best things of the Tau codex, greatly helping the rest of your army shooting stuff dead before the enemy gets too close. Never bother shooting the carabines, just keep puting markerlights in whatever you want to focus fire this turn. Just their ability to negate enemy cover makes them worth it.

As for firewarriors as pathfinders, as long as you do something to the models and guns so they're diferent from your other firewarriors, is all good.

Squark

2012-02-29, 02:15 PM

Does anyone know when Tau will get another codex? Since as far as I know only Tau and Necrons don't have codex's. (Okay, Necron's do have a codex, but it was written by Anti-Christ, AKA Matt Ward)

It's actually quite good. And half of the tier 1 armies aren't even Ward's work (Dark Eldar and Space Wolves are both Phil Kelly's. Not sure about Blood Angels and Imperial Guard, the other two top tier codexes.)*

And a lot of armies are still in need of a new codex; Let's see...

Chaos Space Marines (PErsonally, I think these would be a good choice for the next release, if GW thinks they qualify as marines for the purposes of "every other codex a marine codex" policy), Eldar, Orks, Tau, Black Templars, Dark Angels, and maybe Chaos Demons.

(Note that Templars and Dark Angels both have an FAQ that brings them up to 5th edition, although Dark Angels, outside of Deathwing, are still in need of some love)

And, yeah. Marker lights are one of the best things in the Tau Codex.

*We had this discussion a while ago. The tier 1 and tier 2 codexes both have multiple competitive lists. Tier 1 is distinguished from tier 2 in that Tier 1 usually gets something for nothing (Fast Razorbacks are the most commonly cited example here). Tier 3 was defined as having only 1-2 lists that are basically just trying to do what Tier 2 does, but not doing it as well, and Tier 4 was defined as "Even the good stuff in the codex is bad". And Demons are... well, all over the place.

Reconstructing that list

Tier 1: Dark Eldar, Imperial Guard, Space Wolves, Blood Angels
Tier 2: Codex: Space Marines, Grey Knights, Dark Angels, Black Templars, Necrons
Tier 3: Orks, Eldar, Chaos Space Marines, Sisters of Battle
Tier 4: Tau, Tyranids
Tier 1d4+1: Chaos Demons

Hazzardevil

2012-02-29, 02:36 PM

Tome

2012-02-29, 03:50 PM

I thought there was a limit, something like 3 per army? Also, I own 2 Battle-suits.

You can have 1-3 suits in a Crisis Team. Each team takes up an Elites slot, of which you have three. Futhermore, your Commander should be piloting a Crisis suit of his own (unless you took the Forgeworld commander in the Hazard suit) and can be accompanied by two Crisis bodyguards. With two HQ slots, that lets you take another six suits for a total of fifteen suits maximum.

Does anyone know when Tau will get another codex? Since as far as I know only Tau and Necrons don't have codex's. (Okay, Necron's do have a codex, but it was written by Anti-Christ, AKA Matt Ward)

The Necron codex is apparently pretty good, actually. Not so much borked fluff and LOLbroken as the Grey Knights have.

Tau are theorised to be within the year, hopefully, but more likely sometime in 2013. But we honestly have no idea, since GW are currently operating under a rather stupid policy of not announcing anything until a week or so before the release. :smallmad:

Also, what are so good about Pathfinders? All I see are an extra 6 inches of movement on the first turn for more points with a worse gun.
And will I be allowed to use Fire Warrior figures for Pathfinders?

Markerlights. You take Pathfinders for Markerlights. Considering most of your army is BS3, being able to use Markerlights to boost your BS or remove Cover saves is really, really good.

If only Pathfinders didn't have to take a useless Devilfish. :smallfrown:

I have played little of WH40K, but I thought Orks would be Tier 4, since they are quite expensive to get aren't they?
And why are Tyranids weak?
And does Tier 1d4+1 mean the strength is random due to how they deploy?

Orks? Expensive? Not really. Considering how much converting you can get away with, Orks can actually be pretty cheap. And cost doesn't enter into how good an army is. Imperial Guard are the most expensive army by far, but are also possibly the strongest.

Tyranids are weak for two big reasons. The first is their highly limited anti-tank - in the current edition, vehicles are very strong and a lot of armies can get a lot of vehicles for very few points. 'Nids simply don't have enough guns capable of cracking open those vehicles, and the ones they do have, tend to have some major downsides.

The second reason is that GW hates 'Nids. They lost a lot of options from the previous edition and were given massive price increases on most of their good stuff. Which wasn't too bad, initially. But then GW released an errata document for them which nerfed them into the ground, with basically every ruling in it being against the 'Nids.

Tier 1d4+1 means that Daemons are really, really random. They can be unstoppable or pathetic, entirely depending on a few choice rolls.

Ricky S

2012-02-29, 05:34 PM

I thought there was a limit, something like 3 per army? Also, I own 2 Battle-suits.

Does anyone know when Tau will get another codex? Since as far as I know only Tau and Necrons don't have codex's. (Okay, Necron's do have a codex, but it was written by Anti-Christ, AKA Matt Ward)

Also, what are so good about Pathfinders? All I see are an extra 6 inches of movement on the first turn for more points with a worse gun.
And will I be allowed to use Fire Warrior figures for Pathfinders?

I suggest you read through the rules a bit more thoroughly so get a better understanding of all the units. If you havent got a rulebook yet then you can always go into games-workshop and read the stores open copy.

Tau can have a maximum of 15 crisis suits in a regular army and a maximum of 21 in a farsight army. Crisis suits are the workhorse of a tau army. Along with broadsides and hammerheads they are the ones doing the killing. Everything else is basically just there as support.

So what you want to do is have your two troops minimum and never get more than that. Get a unit of pathfinders, a unit of broadsides, maybe a hammerhead and then as many suits as the rest of your list can fit.

DaedalusMkV

2012-02-29, 05:45 PM

Markerlights. You take Pathfinders for Markerlights. Considering most of your army is BS3, being able to use Markerlights to boost your BS or remove Cover saves is really, really good.

If only Pathfinders didn't have to take a useless Devilfish. :smallfrown:

This. Six Pathfinders with average to-hit rolls double the damage output of whatever unit you choose to use them to boost. This is not to be underestimated, given that the Pathfinders cost ~70 points and the boosted unit will cost somewhere in the region of twice that. Force multipliers are really, really good and Markerlights are among the best force multipliers in the game. Better than Orders, even, and almost better than a Farseer.

To be fair, though, those 'Fish are only useless if you let them be. Run a couple of Fire Warrior squads to jump inside and they'll pull their weight well enough. Also, they let you reroll the scatter dice of any unit Deep Striking within LOS of them. For free. They singlehandedly make deep-striking Fusion suits viable, and said suits are plenty effective.

Edit: Ricky S.: You're very wrong on the "Never more than your two minimum Troops" statement. Tau can't play for the "Wipe the enemy off the board" victory; we just don't have the offensive firepower to do it. Tau need Troops more than just about any other faction, even though our Troops choices are among the worst in the game. I would never run less than three above 1000 points, four above 1500 and all six above 2000. Anything less and your opponent just wipes them out and laughs at you because the best you can now do is draw the game.

Renegade Paladin

2012-02-29, 05:55 PM

Is it just me, or are almost all the 40k articles on the Games Workshop website gone without a trace?

Tome

2012-02-29, 06:14 PM

So what you want to do is have your two troops minimum and never get more than that. Get a unit of pathfinders, a unit of broadsides, maybe a hammerhead and then as many suits as the rest of your list can fit.

Nope.

Like DaedalusMkV mentioned, Tau can't aim for annihilation victories. We need to have scoring units, even if they're terrible. Fortunately, Kroot are at least cheap. So a Tau troops selection is usually the one unit of six Fire Warriors to hide in the Pathfinders' Devilfish, then a bunch of cheap Kroot units.

Futhermore, buying a couple more turns for your suits to fire? Totally worth 70 points of Kroot. Kroot bubblewrap is a very important Tau tactic. In this, at least, Kroot have a use.

Also, Farsight is a trap. He limits your ability to field Railguns (which Tau live and die by) in exchange for a single massive deathstar of Crisis Suits. And a singularly underwhelming deathstar at that. This is bad.

Cheesegear

2012-02-29, 10:37 PM

We need to have scoring units, even if they're terrible. Fortunately, Kroot are at least cheap. So a Tau troops selection is usually the one unit of six Fire Warriors to hide in the Pathfinders' Devilfish, then a bunch of cheap Kroot units.

On the other hand, I'm told that Pathfinders are junk and you just shouldn't take them. The Devilfish is the same no matter what squad you get it with (Fire Warriors), but, at least the unit you want in it can start the game or enter Reserve (so your FWs don't get shot) in the vehicle they actually want to be in.

I see;
Small unit with Marker Drones in Devilfish
Small unit with Marker Drones in Devilfish
Kroot
Kroot

7-9 Crisis Suits (inc. Commander)
6-9 Broadsides

Wall of Piranhas.

Generally a PitA. I've never lost to it, but there are a few people who have. The gist of the idea is that if you need as many Markerlights as there are on Pathfinders on one target, chances are you shouldn't be trying. If you need more than 2-3 Markerlights (+1 BS, -2 Cover Save) it's time to rewrite your list.

But, that's from my resident Tau player.

DaedalusMkV

2012-03-01, 01:59 AM

But, that's from my resident Tau player.
Your resident Tau player is at best a fool, and at worst an active cheater. Markerlights have to roll to hit; getting that +1 BS and -2 cover requires six 'Lights; conveniently exactly the same number as are in a minimum-strength Pathfinder squad. More importantly, Markerlights are Heavy weapons, and Drones have the unit type of whatever unit they're attached to, so Marker Drones attached to Fire Warriors or Broadsides do not have Relentless. Those Devilfish-mounted squads cannot fire their 'Lights the turn they leave their vehicles, and if his opponent is giving his six-man squad a turn unmolested he's a failure as a player. Those two Marker Drones attached to each Fire Warrior unit? 12 points less than the cost of a six-strong Pathfinder squad, which each offer three times as many Markerlights at exactly the same BS and allow their Devilfish to grant the aforementioned Deep Strike rerolls absolutely free. I've been over the benefits of Marker Drones quite a few times; the only time they're ever even remotely worth using is attached to minimum-strength Stealth Suit teams, turning the unit into an ultra-expensive, high mobility, hard to target Pathfinder team. And even then you're better off just taking Pathfinders and using your Elites slot to take more Crisis Suits unless your entire metagame is gunline armies.

Hootman

2012-03-01, 02:27 AM

Gentlemen. Ladies. Mushrooms. There will be a tournament at one of my local game stores in about 3 weeks, and I would like some suggestions for what I ought to play, and how I may want to build my army.

Point Limit: 1850 points
No Forge World Rules allowed.
All games are the normal random-length, and as far as I know, there are no restrictions on USR's.
The tournament will consist of THREE of the following games. I will not know exactly which ones are being used until the day of the tournament.

{table]Game|Deployment|Primary Objective|Secondary Objective|Tertiary Objective
1|Spearhead|Annialation|Table Quarters|Have HQ within 6" of Center
2|Pitched Battle|Destroy 50%+ of foe's PRE-DEPLOYMENT kill points|Seize 3 Objectives (1 center, 1 each DZ)|Most units wholly within enemy DZ
3|Pitched Battle|Annialation|Seize Ground (5 objectives)|Destroy one enemy unit determined before Deployment (no picking dedicated transports)
4|Dawn of War|Annialation|Seize Some Ground (your own DZ, see below)|Seize More Ground (your foe's DZ, see below)
[/table]

For Game 4, each play must place 1 objective in their own DZ, then place TWO objectives in the opponent's DZ. The two mission objectives related to this are scored separately--the first for how one faired in their own DZ, and the second for how one faired in their opponent's DZ.

Any ideas? I have Marines (which can be any flavor except Grey Knights) and Orks. I have access to Sisters of Battle and Tyranids, assuming those guys don't join the tournament themselves.

Cheesegear

2012-03-01, 06:37 AM

Your resident Tau player is at best a fool, and at worst an active cheater.

Not that I've ever seen him cheat. Like I said, I beat him every time. As for calling him a fool, well, he still plays Tau.

Markerlights have to roll to hit; getting that +1 BS and -2 cover requires six 'Lights; conveniently exactly the same number as are in a minimum-strength Pathfinder squad.

Pathfinders are minimum 4.

Pathfinders (x4) in Devilfish with Disruption Pods - 133 Points
Piranhas (x2, in seperate slots) with Fusion Blasters - 130 Points

I mean, you can take six Pathfinders, but the Piranhas are still going to stay the same cost (cheap). Which is a factor when you want to spam 'Suits and Broadsides - which you do.

Keep in mind that neither Pathfinders nor Devilfish do much damage - if any - to vehicles. Maybe that's why all the top Tau players (of which there aren't enough) run Pathfinders...Oh? They don't. Pathfinders also have the particular disadvantage of being the bad kind of Fast Attack - 'Troops that don't Score'. If you want Pathfinders, take more Warriors - or even Kroot. As has been mentioned a few times in this very thread, Pathfinders are the very first thing to die in your army to die if your opponent knows anything at all. So, if they aren't doing anything, then what's the point in having them?

More importantly, Markerlights are Heavy weapons, and Drones have the unit type of whatever unit they're attached to, so Marker Drones attached to Fire Warriors or Broadsides do not have Relentless.

Then the Marker Drones are attached to Crisis Teams. I know they're there and I know they get fired.
EDIT: Or not. I forget. Again, Fire Warriors and Devilfish do nothing when your opponent has 'Meched Up, Son' and the Markerlights give them something to do.

Ricky S

2012-03-01, 08:01 AM

Nope.

Like DaedalusMkV mentioned, Tau can't aim for annihilation victories. We need to have scoring units, even if they're terrible. Fortunately, Kroot are at least cheap. So a Tau troops selection is usually the one unit of six Fire Warriors to hide in the Pathfinders' Devilfish, then a bunch of cheap Kroot units.

Futhermore, buying a couple more turns for your suits to fire? Totally worth 70 points of Kroot. Kroot bubblewrap is a very important Tau tactic. In this, at least, Kroot have a use.

Also, Farsight is a trap. He limits your ability to field Railguns (which Tau live and die by) in exchange for a single massive deathstar of Crisis Suits. And a singularly underwhelming deathstar at that. This is bad.

But you have two. Buying more troops is an utter waste of points in tau. If you want to make them last longer then buy them a devilfish (which I consider to be a waste of points anyway). The idea is you have both units camp on the objective/s and go to ground if they get shot at. The rest of the army holds off the enemy and then contests the enemy objective/s.

I disagree with farsight being a trap. You dont have to run a giant unit. When I take him, I take him, 2 bodyguards and attach a regular commander to the squad as well. That way you have a deadly unit but it doesnt cost half your army.

He is awesome in combat (for a tau) and can hold his own against a lot of units in 40k. 5 str 5 power weapon attacks is nothing to sniff at and he really comes into his own against vehicles. You hardly lose out on railguns anyway. You can still have 4.

Tome

2012-03-01, 08:36 AM

But you have two. Buying more troops is an utter waste of points in tau. If you want to make them last longer then buy them a devilfish (which I consider to be a waste of points anyway). The idea is you have both units camp on the objective/s and go to ground if they get shot at. The rest of the army holds off the enemy and then contests the enemy objective/s.

Two troops is not enough. Particularly Tau troops, they're far too fragile. :smallfrown:

If an enemy can deal with six units of Marines in Razorbacks, they can kill two six-man Fire Warrior units in Devilfishes. They can probably kill a unit of Fire Warriors in a Devilfish and forty Kroot too, but at least it'll be a little harder and you might have something left to claim an objective come turn 5.

This because your opponent is going to make killing your troops their priority. Even more so if you only have two of them, because then they know they only have to kill two relatively fragile units to remove any chance of your victory. Which is very bad for you.

I disagree with farsight being a trap. You dont have to run a giant unit. When I take him, I take him, 2 bodyguards and attach a regular commander to the squad as well. That way you have a deadly unit but it doesnt cost half your army.

He is awesome in combat (for a tau) and can hold his own against a lot of units in 40k. 5 str 5 power weapon attacks is nothing to sniff at and he really comes into his own against vehicles. You hardly lose out on railguns anyway. You can still have 4.

You do realise that a regular Shas'El/Shas'O can have up to two bodyguards anyway, right? There's no need to use Farsight if you're only taking the two bodyguards. You either take a small number of them, which can be done with a regular Commander for less points, or make a massive deathstar, which is hideously inefficient.

He's awesome in combat for a Tau. That's still pretty terrible though, and running him into combat is a waste of his Retinue, which, being standard Crisis Shas'Vre, should be shooting, not locked in combat.

And you do loose out on Railguns. At the minimum points level you can take Farsight at - which is to say 1500 - you should be running between five and seven Railguns, because Railguns are really, really good. At higher points levels, i.e. once you've maxed out on Crisis Team and Broadsides, not being able to take a second unit of Pathfinders or Piranhas is also a notable downside. The lack of Kroot also cripples you, both by removing the slightly-less-bad of your two troops choices, and by removing the primary bubblewrap unit for protecting your heavy-hitters. And all of that, in exchange for an overpriced Power weapon and a slightly larger bodyguard? No thank you.

Cheesegear

2012-03-01, 08:52 AM

Tier 1: Dark Eldar, Imperial Guard, Space Wolves, Blood Angels
Tier 2: Codex: Space Marines, Grey Knights, Dark Angels, Black Templars, Necrons
Tier 3: Orks, Eldar, Chaos Space Marines, Sisters of Battle
Tier 4: Tau, Tyranids
Tier 1d4+1: Chaos Demons

That list looks familiar. :smallamused:

Funnily enough, Elsewhere On The Internet just posted something today about what the most competitive armies in 40K were - and I tend to trust that guy when it comes to this sort of thing. Even if he is a bit of a Grayson - most of the highly competitive, no-comp players are, though.

His list doesn't look much like the one I've posted. But, his list boils down to 'good' vs. 'not good', rather than varying degrees of goodness. And Tau are in the 'good' section of the list (related to the Playground; Pathfinders are not on the list) albeit at the very bottom of 'good'. Wheras Dark Eldar are in the 'bad' category.

No surprises though; Blood Angels are best and Tyranids are worst.

Although, again, I feel I need to point out just for clarity that the 'Tiers' above are based on how many options those Codecies have available, in relation to how good those options are. In that sense, Tau still has only one viable build regardless of how good it is.

LeSwordfish

2012-03-01, 01:30 PM

Even if he is a bit of a Grayson - most of the highly competitive, no-comp players are, though.

*raises hand*

What's a Grayson?

Winterwind

2012-03-01, 01:43 PM

*raises hand*

What's a Grayson?You know Robin, from Batman? Whose last name is Grayson? Find out his given name, and you'll have your answer. :smallwink:

maglag

2012-03-01, 04:39 PM

Again, Fire Warriors and Devilfish do nothing when your opponent has 'Meched Up, Son' and the Markerlights give them something to do.

Pulse Rifles have S5 and 30 range. They can still glance the heck out of razors and rhinos.

Tome

2012-03-01, 05:24 PM

Pulse Rifles have S5 and 30 range. They can still glance the heck out of razors and rhinos.

In theory, anyway.

In practice, Fire Warriors have problems glancing Rhinos and Razorbacks for the same reasons they have problems killing infantry. Which is to say, they have BS3 and still cost double-digit points per model.

Now, theoretically, you could compensate for that, either by using Markerlights or taking more Fire Warriors. But seven more Fire Warriors equals a whole 'nother Broadside, and the Broadside has much better odds of doing something. A Markerlights could be spent on units that would benefit from them a lot more effectively.

<-- Complains about how terrible Tau are all the time. <-- How you know he's a Tau fan. :smalltongue:

Cheesegear

2012-03-01, 06:53 PM

Pulse Rifles have S5 and 30 range. They can still glance the heck out of razors and rhinos.

You'd think so. But they don't. As terrible as it is, the Math Hammer* suggests that a minimum squad of 6 (right, that's what you have?) only gives one Glancing or Penetrating Hit. Most of the good armies in 1500 points are churning out 10 vehicles. One squad of Fire Warriors barely managing to Penetrate Rhinos are hardly a concern.

* While I hate it, people never seem to listen to my anecdotal evidence that says that Fire Warriors never glance vehicles. So, inb4 people taking 'never' literally and just giving a sample size of 6 - which is totally reliable.

Which is to say, they have BS3 and still cost double-digit points per model.

I don't think I understand how their points cost factors into their inability to shoot tanks.

Complains about how terrible Tau are all the time. <-- How you know he's a Tau fan. :smalltongue:

Basically, if people complain a lot about something, it's probably because they actually like it and want it to be better.

Tome

2012-03-01, 07:05 PM

I don't think I understand how their points cost factors into their inability to shoot tanks.

BS3 isn't too much of a drawback on it's own, because that usually means you can compensate with numbers (see: Imperial Guard). But you can't do that with Fire Warriors because each model costs too much.

If they were cheap enough that you could field multiple large units of them, they'd be a decent deterrent to light vehicles (and they could kill infantry too!).

Cheesegear

2012-03-01, 07:11 PM

BS3 isn't too much of a drawback on it's own, because that usually means you can compensate with numbers (see: Imperial Guard).

Imperial Guard don't compensate for their lasguns with numbers. No matter how many lasguns you've got, you still can't penetrate AV10. Imperial Guard compensate for their lasguns with Lascannons.

Tome

2012-03-01, 07:13 PM

Imperial Guard don't compensate for their lasguns with numbers. No matter how many lasguns you've got, you still can't penetrate AV10. Imperial Guard compensate for their lasguns with Lascannons.

I meant it a little more generally, in the sense that they make up for their Lascannons being BS3 by have considerably more of them than the Marines do. :smallwink:

maglag

2012-03-01, 07:16 PM

Sooo, the extra 6 range compared to other race's basic guns isn't worth anything? In my experience it can usually turn in an extra turn of shooting with good positioning and careful range guessing.

Most of the good armies in 1500 points are churning out 10 vehicles.

To be fair, in my metagame like only one or two players can afford that many vehicles money-wise when a measly 40-point transport costs as much as a full squad that'll fill a lot more points of your army allotment. Yes vehicle spam is the ideal build, but actualy geting the models is another story alltogheter.

At least they don't come in random booster packs.:smalltongue:

Tome

2012-03-01, 07:34 PM

Sooo, the extra 6 range compared to other race's basic guns isn't worth anything? In my experience it can usually turn in an extra turn of shooting with good positioning and careful range guessing.

It's worth a little. That, and being S5 is the only reason Fire Warriors are merely bad, as opposed to being traps.

Fire Warriors are fragile, stationary units with no CC ability whatsoever. Their only good point is their shooting, but their mediocre BS and numbers render them actually pretty mediocre, even at their one good point.

Cheesegear

2012-03-01, 07:44 PM

Fire Warriors are fragile, stationary units with no CC ability whatsoever. Their only good point is their shooting, but their mediocre BS and numbers render them actually pretty mediocre, even at their one good point.

Compare them to Ratlings. Also, fragile, stationary units with no Assault ability whatsoever.

However, they come at BS4, and have Infiltrate and Stealth.

Tome

2012-03-01, 08:00 PM

Compare them to Ratlings. Also, fragile, stationary units with no Assault ability whatsoever.

However, they come at BS4, are only ten points each, and have Infiltrate and Stealth. For two points less than a Fire Warrior.

Completely agreed.

Though the two are actually the exact same price. T2 and Stealth seems roughly as durable as T3 and 4+ armour, but Infiltrate and BS4 just make Ratlings so much better than Fire Warriors. :smallsigh:

Renegade Paladin

2012-03-01, 08:16 PM

Compare them to Ratlings. Also, fragile, stationary units with no Assault ability whatsoever.

However, they come at BS4, and have Infiltrate and Stealth.
And don't score. I can have as many ratlings on an objective as I please and it won't make a lick of difference. :smalltongue:

Cheesegear

2012-03-01, 08:36 PM

And don't score. I can have as many ratlings on an objective as I please and it won't make a lick of difference. :smalltongue:

Ratlings aren't for Scoring. They should be Infiltration denial-ing your opponent and generally shooting at Heavy Infantry and being a PitA with 3+ cover saves. I mean "I shoot ten million lasguns and kill three Terminators." is not as effective as "I shoot ten Rifles and kill three Terminators." for one quarter the points.

Renegade Paladin

2012-03-01, 09:03 PM

Ratlings aren't for Scoring. They should be Infiltration denial-ing your opponent and generally shooting at Heavy Infantry and being a PitA with 3+ cover saves. I mean "I shoot ten million lasguns and kill three Terminators." is not as effective as "I shoot ten Rifles and kill three Terminators." for one quarter the points.
Well yes, I know how to use them, but whether a unit is scoring or not figures into its points cost. Not to say Fire Warriors are worth it (twice as much as a Guardsman? Really?), but they're not Elites for a reason.

At any rate, Guardsmen are 5 points per model. Veterans are 7, so apparently +1 BS is worth two points. Give them a doctrine and suddenly they cost the same as fire warriors; going from 5+ to 4+ is worth three just to pick one of them. So the question we have to ask, working backwards from that, is whether S5 over S3 is worth about as much as BS4 over BS3 and WS3 over WS2. I think we can answer with a resounding no, leaving aside that you generally wouldn't give veterans carapace anyway if you care about cost effectiveness, barring possibly the plasma gun exception.

So, at what points cost would Fire Warriors become effective?

Also, to answer myself:
Is it just me, or are almost all the 40k articles on the Games Workshop website gone without a trace?
This here is the boilerplate Customer Disservice gives, if anyone's curious.
Hey there,

Thanks for writing in to us. As you've noticed, some of the articles on our web-site including many of the painting guides have been removed. Most of these articles have been out of date for some time and used paints that are no longer available. Our hobby books such as ‘Eavy Metal Masterclass, the How To Paint books and White Dwarf, contain an array of painting guides, and our Hobby Center staff are always willing to help out with painting techniques – just pop in and have a chat with them if you have a store close by. We also show plenty of painting tips on "What’s New Today", sharing the techniques used by hobbyists all over the world. With the new blog, this advice will be even easier to find, so don’t forget to keep checking back. You can also call our Customer Services department for advice too. The number to call is 1-800-394-4263.

We're not sure when new articles will be uploaded to our web-site, but rest assured that as we go forward more and more will be added to build up our library again.

We apologize for any inconvenience. If you have any further questions, then please call us at 1-800-394-4263.

Madison Blair

Games Workshop Customer Service
Completely ignoring the fact that I didn't ask about painting articles at all, and revising the painting articles wouldn't require wholesale deletion of the gameplay and rules expansion articles with them. :smallsigh: So much for the online Cities of Death stratagems, I suppose.

Zorg

2012-03-01, 09:25 PM

Word is the paint line is being redone so those articles all need re-writing, and with 6th edition supposedly in the wings to consolidate all the expanisons into one book...

Renegade Paladin

2012-03-01, 10:20 PM

Yeah, but now vox-casters can't spot for my ordnance battery. :smallfrown:

Tome

2012-03-02, 07:21 AM

Shovah

2012-03-02, 08:01 AM

Moving on from Fire Warriors, my FLGS is hosting a 40K tournament in a few months and I'm not sure what sort of list to bring.

I've got two armies. My Tau, who I'm a little out of practice with, and my GKs, who I usually field as horribly unoptimised Terminator-spam for fun.

Currently I'm thinking of fielding a list based around two large units of Terminators with a force-multiplier (Xenos Inquisitor/Techmarine) in each, backed by as much dakka as I can muster.

The first draft looks a little like this:
HQ
Ordo Xenos Inquisitor - 94 Points
Mastery Level 1: Hammerhand
Bolt Pistol, Force Sword, Psychotroke Grenades, Rad Grenades
+Servo-Skulls (x3)

Ordo Xenos Inquisitor - 91 Points
Mastery Level 1: Hammerhand
Bolt Pistol, Force Sword, Psychotroke Grenades, Rad Grenades
+Servo-Skulls (x2)

ELITES
Vindicare Assassin - 145 Points

Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband (x11) - 80 Points
Psyker x6, Warrior Acolyte x5

Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband (x11) - 80 Points
Psyker x6, Warrior Acolyte x5

TROOPS
Grey Knight Terminator Squad (x10) - 495 Points
Brotherhood Banner, Nemesis Daemon Hammer x2, Nemesis Force Halberds x7, Psybolt Ammunition, Psycannon x2

Grey Knight Terminator Squad (x10) - 495 Points
Brotherhood Banner, Nemesis Daemon Hammer x2, Nemesis Force Halberds x7, Psybolt Ammunition, Psycannon x2

FAST ATTACK

HEAVY SUPPORT
Grey Knight Dreadnought - 135 Points
2x Twin-Linked Autocannon, Psybolt Ammunition

Grey Knight Dreadnought - 135 Points
2x Twin-Linked Autocannon, Psybolt Ammunition

TOTAL: 1750
Obviously, I could make some major improvements to it.

My Tau list is significantly more optimised, but like I said, I'm a little out of practice with them.

I'm not sure what everyone else will say, but I really like that list. It may not be entirely optimal, but it certainly looks fun, and you seem to be getting a lot out of those units.

Only change I can think of (sticking to the general idea of the list) would be swapping
"Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband (x11) - 80 Points
Psyker x6, Warrior Acolyte x5

Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband (x11) - 80 Points
Psyker x6, Warrior Acolyte x5"
+the psychotrokes and one or two servo-skulls

for
"Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband (x3) - 97 Points
Warrior Acolyte x3, Meltagun x3, Chimera

Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband (x3) - 97 Points
Warrior Acolyte x3, Meltagun x3, Chimera"

On the other hand, that could just be because I just don't find the big psyker units that reliable. A lot of it would also depend on what you face, I suppose.

Ricky S

2012-03-02, 10:11 AM

Moving on from Fire Warriors, my FLGS is hosting a 40K tournament in a few months and I'm not sure what sort of list to bring.

I've got two armies. My Tau, who I'm a little out of practice with, and my GKs, who I usually field as horribly unoptimised Terminator-spam for fun.

Currently I'm thinking of fielding a list based around two large units of Terminators with a force-multiplier (Xenos Inquisitor/Techmarine) in each, backed by as much dakka as I can muster.

The first draft looks a little like this:
HQ
Ordo Xenos Inquisitor - 94 Points
Mastery Level 1: Hammerhand
Bolt Pistol, Force Sword, Psychotroke Grenades, Rad Grenades
+Servo-Skulls (x3)

Ordo Xenos Inquisitor - 91 Points
Mastery Level 1: Hammerhand
Bolt Pistol, Force Sword, Psychotroke Grenades, Rad Grenades
+Servo-Skulls (x2)

ELITES
Vindicare Assassin - 145 Points

Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband (x11) - 80 Points
Psyker x6, Warrior Acolyte x5

Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband (x11) - 80 Points
Psyker x6, Warrior Acolyte x5

TROOPS
Grey Knight Terminator Squad (x10) - 495 Points
Brotherhood Banner, Nemesis Daemon Hammer x2, Nemesis Force Halberds x7, Psybolt Ammunition, Psycannon x2

Grey Knight Terminator Squad (x10) - 495 Points
Brotherhood Banner, Nemesis Daemon Hammer x2, Nemesis Force Halberds x7, Psybolt Ammunition, Psycannon x2

FAST ATTACK

HEAVY SUPPORT
Grey Knight Dreadnought - 135 Points
2x Twin-Linked Autocannon, Psybolt Ammunition

Grey Knight Dreadnought - 135 Points
2x Twin-Linked Autocannon, Psybolt Ammunition

TOTAL: 1750
Obviously, I could make some major improvements to it.

My Tau list is significantly more optimised, but like I said, I'm a little out of practice with them.

I think the only thing you need for your list is two chimeras for your psyker battle squads.

Tome

2012-03-02, 10:37 AM

I think the only thing you need for your list is two chimeras for your psyker battle squads.

Maybe. :smallfrown:

I'm not fond of meching up though, and the Henchmen were only added because I couldn't find a better way to spend another 160 points.

If folks think they won't do anything without a Chimera, I'm more likely to just scrap them for something else.

TechnoScrabble

2012-03-02, 03:33 PM

So...I'm reading the tyranid 5th edition codex...and I can't find the listing for genestealers, hive tyrants, and half a dozen other things back where points costs are listed.

Tome

2012-03-02, 03:57 PM

So...I'm reading the tyranid 5th edition codex...and I can't find the listing for genestealers, hive tyrants, and half a dozen other things back where points costs are listed.

They're certainly in there.

The Hive Tyrant is on page 86 and Genestealers are on page 90.

Maybe try another look, eh?

TechnoScrabble

2012-03-02, 04:08 PM

They're certainly in there.

The Hive Tyrant is on page 86 and Genestealers are on page 90.

Maybe try another look, eh?

Just realized that the copy I'm reading is missing pages.
...Which may be why Matt always loses when he plays his nids...

Cheesegear

2012-03-02, 06:02 PM

Just realized that the copy I'm reading is missing pages.

I lol'd. :smallamused:

Sila Prirode

2012-03-02, 07:45 PM

Just realized that the copy I'm reading is missing pages.
...Which may be why Matt always loses when he plays his nids...

I actually lost a game because of this. It was Annihilation, and I left my Chaos Codex at home, so I had to copy stats from that AoBR book (I knew my list and all the upgrades by heart, but I didn't bother to actually learn the statlines).
And it came to be that Fiends of Slaanesh have their S misprinted in that book, it's listed as one less then it is (can I mention the number, or does it violate that rule that you can't say anything about numbers?).
So, when I charged my opponents Dreadnought, I found myself unable to penetrate his AV, and getting my 6 Fiends killed in few turns. Cost me the game later. Stupid misprints :smallannoyed:

Teln

2012-03-02, 11:55 PM

Aren't Xenos Inquisitors the ones with the Plasma Syphon? That's pretty much a must-have.

Cheesegear

2012-03-03, 12:34 AM

So, after realising that I'm idiot, my final list looks like this;

Imperial Guard - 500 Points

Company Command Squad - 60 Points
Grenade Launcher, Mortar

Company Command Squad - 60 Points
Grenade Launcher, Mortar

Marbo - 65 Points

Veterans - 105 Points
Lascannon, x3 Grenade Launchers

Veterans - 105 Points
Lascannon, x3 Grenade Launchers

Veterans - 105 Points
Lascannon, x3 Grenade Launchers

More Orders, more models on the board. And Officers of the Fleet can't hit for poop. Drop 3 Ratlings, drop a guy who can't hit anything, and gain a whole new set of Orders.

Hazzardevil

2012-03-03, 04:36 AM

After much experimenting, me and a friend managed to fix one of the battlesuits.
The previous owner had stuck a crisis battlesuit down like in this picture.
http://images.dakkadakka.com/gallery/2009/6/27/39986_md-Crisis%20Battlesuit,%20Fire,%20Tau.JPG

Now it's stuck down by it's two big twos on one foot looking like it's about to fall over. It's sturdy though.

Renegade Paladin

2012-03-03, 10:14 AM

After much experimenting, me and a friend managed to fix one of the battlesuits.
The previous owner had stuck a crisis battlesuit down like in this picture.
[IMG]http://images.dakkadakka.com/gallery/2009/6/27/39986_md-Crisis%20Battlesuit,%20Fire,%20Tau.JPG[IMG]

Now it's stuck down by it's two big twos on one foot looking like it's about to fall over. It's sturdy though.
The modeling thread is over here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=197234&page=32) :smallwink: I fail to see anything wrong with the first way; there's no problem with modeling jump infantry actually jumping.

Elite_Lurker

2012-03-03, 11:44 AM

I've got a 500-point tourney coming up at my local game store. Not sure on the objectives, but it'll probably be Annihalation.

Here's the first draft of my list:

HQ:
1x Shas'o Commander- 165 pts.
Cyclic Ion Blaster, Plasma Rifle, Vectored Retro-Thrusters, Hardwired Multitracker, Stimulant Injectors, Hardwired Drone Controller, 1x Shield Drone

Elites:
2x XV8 Crisis Battlesuits- 144 pts.
Plasma Rifle, Missile Pod, Targeting Array, Hardwired Multitracker, 1x Team Leader (Shas'vre w/ Stimulant Injectors

Troops:
6x Firewarriors- 60 pts

6x Firewarriors- 60 pts

Fast Attack:
N/A

Heavy Support:
XV88 Broadside Battlesuit- 70 pts

Total- 499 pts

Any comments or suggestions would be appreciated.

If it would help to know this, the other players in my local 40K group consist of:
3 Codex Marines
2 Grey Knights
1 Necrons
2 Tau (3 counting myself)
1 Tyranids
1 Chaos Space Marines
1 Chaos Daemons

Badgercloak

2012-03-03, 12:08 PM

Squark

2012-03-03, 02:19 PM

Been awhile since I got on here so here's what I've got so far for my first SM army so far:
5x Tac squads (50 models)
1x Scout squad (10 models)
2x Devastator squads (20 models)
1.5x Assault squads (15 models)
1x HQ SM Commander/ Captain (1 model)
1x Command squad (5 models)
2x Rhinos (2 models)

Going to the shop to pick up some new stuff. Thinking about getting Drop Pods maybe some Elites.

Almost every Space Marine army runs at least 1 drop pod, simply because it means you get to deploy 1 unit in your opponent's DZ 1st turn. (PROTIP: Odd numbers of Drop Pods are the way to go). Combi-melta Sternguard or a dreadnaught is what I would reccomend. Also, more Metal Boxes. Probably some of them as plazorbacks (Razorbacks with a Lascannon and twin plasmagun sponsons. Rhinos are, unless you're using He'stan, not very good in C:SM).

EDIT: Also, 5 more Assault marines. Because you're That close to having an entire battle company, according to the standard Codex Astrates organization (Minus the landraider for the command squad and additional rhinos for the devastators and tacticals. But both of those are bad choices anyway, so you can sideline those).

DaedalusMkV

2012-03-03, 05:14 PM

Okay, a Tau list to comment on. Let's take a look.

I've got a 500-point tourney coming up at my local game store. Not sure on the objectives, but it'll probably be Annihalation.

Here's the first draft of my list:

HQ:
1x Shas'o Commander- 165 pts.
Cyclic Ion Blaster, Plasma Rifle, Vectored Retro-Thrusters, Hardwired Multitracker, Stimulant Injectors, Hardwired Drone Controller, 1x Shield Drone

First, he's illegal. If you have a Vectored Retro-thruster, you can't have Drones. So just drop the Thruster and you're good to go. He's an okay damage dank, but a little pricey for my tastes even with the VRT gone. Consider making him a Shas'el and giving him a Targetting Array to save you some more points. Also, your points are incorrect. As-is, he's 150 points. Without the VRT, he's 140. Otherwise, Plas/CIB is my favorite Commander setup and the lone Drone is great defence and deterrant. A solid HQ choice, but overly expensive in 500 points. If you take my advice and make him an 'El, you've got a bunch more points to spend on Moar Gun.

Elites:
2x XV8 Crisis Battlesuits- 144 pts.
Plasma Rifle, Missile Pod, Targeting Array, Hardwired Multitracker, 1x Team Leader (Shas'vre w/ Stimulant Injectors

Yeah, this doesn't work. First, you can only have one Stimulant Injector per army, so that's illegal. Second, you can't give normal Crisis Suits Hardwired gear, so the build is illegal as well. Finally, you're wasting a bunch of points on the Team Leader for no reason and your points cost is wrong. Two Crisis Suits with Plasma, Missiles and Multitrackers sets you back 124 points. Use that instead for a legal, non-wasteful option. Also, seperate them into two individual units. You'll be happier that way.

Troops:
6x Firewarriors- 60 pts

6x Firewarriors- 60 pts

Fast Attack:
N/A

Heavy Support:
XV88 Broadside Battlesuit- 70 pts

Total- 499 pts

The Broadside needs a support system. Since he's all on his own, I'd suggest a Drone Controller with a Shield Drone or a Targetting Array.

If you make the changes to the Commander and the Crisis Suits I suggested, you'll have 60 points to throw around. Throw a TA at the Broadside and you've got 50 left; increase the size of your Fire Warrior squads to 8 and 9 respectively with the points, unless you can get ahold of a bunch of Kroot to replace the second squad with 16 Kroot and bring the first squad up to 7 (the optimal number for morale purposes).

Interestingly, a well-built Tau army tends to perform extremely well at 500 points, especially in comparison to Marine armies which get little to no choice in what to take. Most opponents won't be able to afford more than 1-2 transport vehicles (if they have any at all), which your Battlesuits will destroy in short order, and your Crisis Suits have an extreme amount of room to maneuvre. No Eldar, DE or BA in your metagame means that the Tau players will have a massive maneuvrability advantage, which you should take full advantage of. Dance around the enemy, blast them and retreat whenever they get close. You don't even have to worry about some Guard player bringing seventy soldiers and just blowing you out of the water with massed firepower.

Cheesegear

2012-03-03, 05:21 PM

Been awhile since I got on here so here's what I've got so far for my first SM army so far:

Looking good. Are you going all-Infantry on purpose, or is that just how it turned out?

I made a list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12768350&postcount=105) of what every Marine army needs.

Squark

2012-03-03, 06:09 PM

So... BadgerCloak's army got me thinking... what would a list designed to represent the 2-5th company of a Codex Marines chapter look like? Let's see...

HQ:
-Captain with Command squad (Can he take a standard bearer and an Apothecary in this squad?)
-Chaplain

Troops
-10x Tactical Squad with Rhino
-10x Tactical Squad with Rhino
-10x Tactical Squad with Rhino
-10x Tactical Squad with Rhino
-10x Tactical Squad with Rhino
-10x Tactical Squad with Rhino

Elites
- Dreadnaught
- Dreadnaught
- ?

Fast Attack
-10x Assault Marine
-10x Assault Marine
- Land Speeder of some kind

Heavy Support
- 10x Devastators in Rhino
- 10x Devastators in Rhino
- Land Raider for the command squad

Obviously, not the most optimal list by any means. On the other hand, I doubt it's a coincidence the force organization chart is deliberately structured to make such a list possible. What adjustments would you guys make to this list to make it more in line with the fluff (Let's say we're making it an Ultramarines Company, just to make this easier)

And, for those of you who actually have the Codex: Space Marines, what are we looking at pointswise for this hypothetical list?

Cheesegear

2012-03-03, 07:05 PM

I doubt it's a coincidence the force organization chart is deliberately structured to make such a list possible.

It isn't. :smallsigh:
If you ever need to prove that GW loves Marines most, look to the FO Chart. It's built into the very rules of the game that GW loves Marines.

What adjustments would you guys make to this list to make it more in line with the fluff

None, really. It's kind of hard to f* up what's plainly written in the book.

Strictly speaking, Marine Companies aren't allowed to use Land Speeders, at all, ever. Since the rules changed their squadron sizes of 5 (x2 Marines each = 10 Assault Marines) to 3. Meaning Land Speeder Squadrons have six Marines. Which are illegal under the Codex Astartes. Dark Angels can still do it though.

Assault Squads can also ride Bikes.

And, for those of you who actually have the Codex: Space Marines, what are we looking at pointswise for this hypothetical list?

Captain & Command Squad (with Standard :smallyuk:) in Razorback - 270 Points
Chaplain - 100 Points

Tactical Squad in Rhino - 205 Points x6 = 1230 Points
Assault Squad x2 - 380 Points
Devastator Squad in Rhino (full size :smallyuk:) x2 - 410 Points

Total: 2420, minimum. No upgrades except for the Company Standard.
Apocalypse then asks you to tack on 200 points for three Strategic Assets.

houlio

2012-03-03, 09:21 PM

Sorry that this isn't on topic as to the current discussion, but I found out today that what I would have preferred to start with, the Tau, are rather weak under the current rules. As much as I wish this wouldn't matter to me, it does, so I'm wondering if any of you playgrounders want to give some advice on a different army. After playing some small games with some friends of Eldar against IG, I find I like the former a good deal. I also like the ork fluff and they seem quite fun, any advice for one over the other and what exactly might be a good start of, say, 500 points-ish for both?

I've read the guide to army selection on the first page for both of them. Currency isn't that much of an issue for me, and both are quite appealing fluff-wise to me and seem to be fun playing either way.

Cheesegear

2012-03-03, 09:45 PM

Sorry that this isn't on topic as to the current discussion, but I found out today that what I would have preferred to start with, the Tau, are rather weak under the current rules.

Yes and no. They have a strong list. A list. One. Singular. Any deviation from that one list means failure and the list only works at 1500+ levels. So, it probably isn't the best idea for a brand new army.

After playing some small games with some friends of Eldar against IG, I find I like the former a good deal. I also like the ork fluff and they seem quite fun, any advice for one over the other and what exactly might be a good start of, say, 500 points-ish for both?

Eldar or Orks? Of the two, I'm going to say that Eldar are the stronger list. A lot of Eldar stuff is expensive in points and as such, they don't really work at 500 point levels.

Since, well, you're in luck. 'Cause I have a 500 point tournament up in the next few weeks and I've been writing 500 point lists for nearly every Codex.

Orks - 500 Points
Big Mek - 85 Points
Kustom Force Field

Lootas (x6) - 90 Points

Boyz (x10) - 110 Points
Shootas, Rokkit Launcha
Nob; Power Klaw, Bosspole

Boyz (x10) - 110 Points
Shootas, Rokkit Launcha
Nob; Power Klaw, Bosspole

Boyz (x10) - 105 Points
Shootas, Rokkit Launcha
Nob; Power Klaw

Eldar - 499 Points
Farseer - 90 Points
Runes of Warding, Guide

Guardians (x10) - 143 Points
Eldar Missile Launcher
+ Warlock, Singing Spear, Conceal

Guardians (x10) - 133 Points
Eldar Missile Launcher
+ Warlock; Singing Spear, Embolden

Guardians (x10) - 133 Points
Eldar Missile Launcher
+ Warlock; Singing Spear, Embolden

Of the two lists, the Orks seem better, since they get extra Lootas. But, the Eldar have better BS, and even if they do have BS3, using Guide from the Farseer they can re-roll their shots anyway. Also, Ork Rokkits don't have the duality that EMLs do, and, in 500 points, the Pinning-causing EMLs can be invaluable, you kill some dudes, roll a Pin check, they fail and you just take one of their units out of the game. In 500 points, Pinning is far, far better than it is later on.

The Guardian Squads don't have Conceal because they should be in cover anyway, and if your opponent isn't an idiot, he'll be shooting at them trying to force them off an objective where you put them.

If Mech is King, then Gunline is Prince. Eldar can do either fairly well (but not as good as the good ones), while Orks do neither particularly well. Eldar have decent shooty units and Wave Serpents - while expensive - have proper guns.
Orks have one decent shooty unit, and their vehicles are rather terrible.

houlio

2012-03-03, 10:36 PM

Cheesegear

2012-03-03, 11:09 PM

Would you, or anyone else, recommend getting a wave serpent to start with, since it seems rather necessary based on reading this thread, what with "Mech is King" and all?

To start with? Probably not. Mech is King because of it's spam-ability. Wave Serpents, are expensive in points and thus, can't be spammed until later in the area of 1250+ or so. So, to start with, a Wave Serpent is not good. Unless you plan on getting Striking Scorpions and Outflanking them every game, and you should only do that if you've also got War Walkers, and you should only have those if you have two Autarchs and...I'll stop there.

In short, don't take Wave Serpents unless you can take a lot of them, which wont really happen 'to start with'.

Squark

2012-03-03, 11:11 PM

Thanks, those lists are rather helpful guides. Probably going to try out Eldar based on your recommendation, just because one the big things I liked about Orkz were their silly vehicles.

Would you, or anyone else, recommend getting a wave serpent to start with, since it seems rather necessary based on reading this thread, what with "Mech is King" and all?

Ultimately, you can go Mechanized, or you can go gunline. But mixing the two seldom ends well. So, take a lot of vehicles, or don't take many at all (At 500 points, probably not any).

I'm more of a gunline player myself (In no small part due to the fact that when I started out, there was no such thing as Mechanized Necrons, and I'm still skeptical about how effective such an army would be, without massive numbers of converted Night Scythes and Doom Scythes). But ultimately, go with what seems cooler to you.

TechnoScrabble

2012-03-03, 11:39 PM

Orks are fun to play and fun to paint, but if you paint orks, you'll get so used to the ork method (****ton of washes and experimentation) that your models from other armies may be harder for you to paint.
Everyone whines about Ork statlines, and I agree that on paper they suck, but the only times I've lost as Orks was:
Twice VS very good Imperial Guard Player
Twice VS same guy playing his own Orks
Once VS Blood Angels that had been amusingly badly painted (Why did they have to be so GOL DAMNED PINK!?!?!?)

Though I do get more draws than I have any right to be getting and I've only played in two GW tourneys.

One fun tactic in larger point, more round games, get a trukk with some upgrades to make it fast and survivable, put some tankbustas in the trukk as soon as possible, and drive around chewing up any armored enemies. Ork aim sucks, but those rokkit launchas have a wonderful tendency to make spehss mehreens cry.

Cheesegear

2012-03-04, 05:30 AM

So, a whole lot of new Tyranids came out, and now a few people are willing to give them a shot since you no longer need massive amounts of cash and conversion/green stuff skills to use two kits to make one model. And, even before now a lot of people have taken to playing Tyranids because they look cool and end up screwing around and taking all the wrong things. So, what's good?

Special Rules:
Synapse: If you plan on playing the horde style of Tyranids which most people are going to play, this is excellent as units of 24+ models aren't going to just up and bail (on their Ld 6) because a couple of Bolters got fired at them. More importantly, anything within Synapse range automatically regroups. Also gets rid of Instinctive Behaviour (below) which is good.

Shadow in the Warp: Nearly always useful to some degree.

Instinctive Behaviour: Annoying. Nearly all non-Synapse units are going to have to be babysat. Especially those that Feed. Lurk isn't as bad. But Feed = Rage and you can't shoot weapons. Terrible. Everything else with Rage is allowed to shoot. But not Tyranids. :smallsigh:

HQ:
Hive Tyrant: He's expensive. Often comes at the same cost as a fully-tooled HQ of other armies, except bear in mind that most other armies don't fully kit out their HQ. One of the most important things about this guy, when building him, is make absolutely certain to keep him cheap, otherwise he will go out of control - the bad way.

Scything Talons; Get a free pair. At WS8 you only end up re-rolling 50% of your misses. Scything Talons aren't that much of a big deal. Helpful, but completely ignorable.
Lash Whip and Bonesword; You have the option of swapping these out for Scything Talons. Never do this. Going first is always better. Especially with I6 Force Weapon Grey Knights running around, Mephiston, Wraiths (who do the same thing, but striking simultaneously is better than last). The only reason you should swap these out is if you plan on upgrading both sets of Talons to ranged weapons and investing in Tyrant Guard - which isn't a bad idea.
TL-Deathspitters; You shouldn't need them. Not at what they cost anyway.
TL-Devourers; Not even close to being worth it. Get more Termagants.
Stranglethorn Cannon; S6 Pinning is nice, but not worth it. Ignore for...
H. Venom Cannon; Upgrade to pretty much every time. Mech is King and Tyranids have few ways of dealing with it. The only issue with the HVC is that MCs can shoot two weapons per turn, and Tyrants don't really have any other weapon options that synergise with the HVC which can be annoying at times.

Hive Commander; Generally a solid choice. A unit of Troops can Outflank. And while alive you can manipulate the Reserve roll. Bear in mind that he doesn't even need to be on the board for this to work. He can manipulate his own roll!
Indescribable Horror; Leadership checks are fairly easy to pass, and it doesn't work on Fearless units. Ignore this.
Old Adversary; 'Preferred Enemy (Everything!)' was around long before the Necrons Codex. The only trouble is, nearly everything that this ability is good for, already has Scything Talons. Even if you do base your army around this one ability, you still wont even need it.

Adrenal Glands; Being S6 with a Lash Whip, you should rarely need this.
Toxin Sacs; Can be useful.
Acid Blood; No.
Implant Attack; No. See the Bonesword?
Toxic Miasma; No.
Regeneration; Maybe. Depends if you've got spare points. See Leech Essence (below).

Thorax Swarm; All of them are mostly bad. Definitely not worth the points. Nor the 'slot'.
Armoured Shell; Sometimes worth it. You don't have an Invulnerable and you can save against Krak Missiles which are all over the place these days.
Wings; Exceptionally expensive, and if you've got Wings you probably want to be in combat, and you can't have Armoured Shell when you do that which means you're relying on your T6 which doesn't always work. Costs as much as a Tyrant Guard. More Wounds is better than Wings.

The Horror; Pretty bad. See Horror before.
Leech Essence; Very good. Your Hive Tyrant is going to get shot at and this gives a chance to regain lost wounds which is very helpful - and unlike Regeneration, it's free!
Paroxysm; Very good. You barely even need Scything Talons anymore. It targets the entire unit - which includes ICs attached to said unit.
Psychic Scream; Forcing Leadership checks isn't scary. Horrors don't really do anything.

+ Tyrant Guard; Nearly always take at least one of these guys if you don't have Wings. And definitely always take them if you have neither Wings nor a Lash Whip and make sure you pay points so that one (or all) of the Tyrant Guard does.

Summary; Below Average. He's exceptionally expensive, doesn't have an Invulnerable, can't join units and is a rather large model which makes it hard to keep him out of LoS so he doesn't get shot at. The only way to keep him alive is to invest in Tyrant Guard which basically function as extra wounds and more attacks in Assault. Basically, if you find yourself paying 275 points plus for a Hive Tyrant, you're better off with...

Swarmlord: Take a Hive Tyrant, give him more wounds, a better Initiative, all the Psychic Powers and can use two of them per turn. A weird version of Hive Commander and a focused version of Old Adversary.

Bone Sabres; Eats Hammernators for breakfast, and if paired with Tyrant Guard, he'll eat Mephiston too.
Blade Parry; Invulnerables are good. It's a shame that it's in Assault only. You should probably invest in those Tyrant Guard again so you can get there.
Psychic Monstrosity, Swarm Leader; Yeah. Really good.
Alien Cunning; Reserve manipulation is always a plus. For his secondary bonus, however, the unit has to already be Outflanking. Which means it only works for Genestealers, or you have to be investing in another Hive Tyrant which makes your army very costly when it comes to two models.

Summary; Par with Hive Tyrant (Below Average). He loses access to Heavy Venom Cannons and Hive Commander is better than Alien Cunning. But, having an Invulnerable as well as those Bone Sabres can make a right mess of things. His increase Synapse range and Swarm Leader are also fairly incredible. Unlike a Hive Tyrant where Tyrant Guard are merely a good idea, though. Tyrant Guard for Swarmlord is pretty much mandatory, and most of the time, that means keeping him in a box until 1750+ games come around.

Tervigon: Where Hive Tyrants and Swarmlord generally want you fielding anything except Termagants in your Troops slots; Tervigons want you to be fielding nothing but Termagants in your Troops slots. The more Termagants in your army, the better and more cost-effective your Tervigons are going to be.

Scything Talons; Always take. If you have to take an option and neither option is particularly good, make it the cheaper one. Yes. You do have to take Sycthing Talons, or...
Crushing Claws; You're I1 anyway. But it's not worth the points for a random amount of attacks that you're probably never going to use.

Toxin Saces; Always take.
Adrenal Glades; Always take. In case you've missed it; a Tervigon is 185 points base.
Implant Attack; No.
Toxic Miasma; Maybe. A Tervigon does not want to be in combat, ever. And this helps end them quicker.
Regeneration; Optional. A Tervigon doesn't want to die, because when he dies, he also kills a bunch of Termagants. Sometimes worth the points, sometimes not. You can always just keep your Tervigon out of LoS. Better on a Tervigon in your Troops slot, since not dying on an objective is fun.

Stinger Salvo/Cluster Spines; The Stinger Salvo is better.

Catalyst; Paying more than 5 points for a Psychic Power sucks (yes, even you Eldar), but Catalyst is a very good one. Especially since it can be used on anything (including a Hive Tyrant - Krak Missiles are not AP2 and they wont be causing Instant Death).
Onslaught; Except in the most dire of circumstances, you'll probably never use this power. Especially for the points that you pay for it it's a pretty big rip. You'll nearly always find a use for Catalyst. Onslaught? Not so much.

Summary; Cheaper than a Hive Tyrant which is a plus. However, also not really as good. Not as able in Assault and doesn't have access to any decent ranged weapons at all. It's sole use is for pumping out Termagants (don't get me wrong, it's very good) and giving FNP to stuff. It's always better to have these guys in your Troops slots than in your HQ slots - just in case you want something else.

If pumping out Termagants doesn't appeal to you (you'll need a lot of extra models that don't even count towards your points allocation), then don't take Tervigons.

Tyranid Prime: This guy is the cheapest HQ you're going to get. And, in addition to his ability to join units, he's not a bad one either.

Scything Talons; I prefer better hits to more hits.
Rending Claws; For five points, Rending is better than zero...
Boneswords; For double, take Power Weapons that can cause Instant Death...
Lash Whip and Bonesword; Best choice. Most points. Going first is always better and you get to keep your Power Weapon.

Devourer; You will never need this. Always upgrade to...
Rending Claws; For free, they're actually pretty good.
Spinefists; No.
Deathspitter; You shouldn't need it.
Scything Talons; It's these or Rending Claws. Depends if you want duality or not.

Adrenal Glands; Having this and Rending Claws actually gives you a chance to bust open vechicles, and Walkers often cause serious problems for non-Monstrous Creature Tyranids (unlike Marines who all get Grenades for free...). Why do you need a Power Weapon that Rends? Vehicles. It always comes back to Mech is King.
Toxin Sacs; Decent, but not as good as Adrenal Glands. Why not have both? Because that's expensive. Pick one or the other. Toxin Sacs mow Infantry especially if you've left your Scything Talons on, Adrenal Glands help you Assault vehicles. Hint; What hurts Tyranids more?
Regeneration; If you've put him in a unit of Tyranid Warriors, you'll almost always be allocating a S8/9 shot to this guy. And Regen keeps him around for longer. Considering it's points cost, it's not a bad investment.

Summary; Decent. Even at his most expensive, he scratches 130 points. However, he doesn't have an Invulnerable so he needs that Lash Whip if he wants to run toe-to-toe with an opposing IC. Unlike Tervigons and Tyrants, he can actually join units and get cover saves easy-ish. While it's a good idea to run him with Warriors, he also does perfectly fine 'hidden' inside units of Termagants or Hormagaunts (which often move outside Synapse range 'by accident). Definitely is a steal in low point games.

Parasite of Mortrex: Take the most expensive Prime, take away all his good options, fiddle with his Weapon Skill and Toughness (what was so broken about T5!?), give him a weird unit generation rule and give him Wings. Sound good? No.

Fiddling with a Prime's T5 is a terrible idea. Now Parasite will eat Krak Missiles in the face and 'hidden' Power Fists are going to ruin him. I6 is okay. But T4 is not okay. Especially when the guy above has T5.

Basically this guy functions like a Tervigon - but for Rippers. Rippers are not good, Swarms aren't Scoring and it's hard to generate them. You have to get in combat, you have to cause casualties (S6 Rending isn't that bad, though, and on those Rends he causes Instant Death), but your opponent needs to fail a test.

Summary; Kind of bad. Not as killy as a real Prime, and also not as durable. Rippers are crap and he costs too many points. IMO he should cost 135 points or so. Take a Prime, Rending Claws (free), Implant Attack (10 Points), and add Wings (25 points) then add whatever you think Ripper generation is worth, keeping in mind you're losing the Alpha Warrior rule.

Sad, but truth. Tyranids don't really have any good HQs. Or, rather, they can become good, but only if your army also contains X, Y and/or Z and the points limit favours your army build.

Elites
Hive Guard (Lurk): Always a solid choice. Having T6 and 2 Wounds each, they actually do basically count as 2 Missile Launchers for 50 points apiece. Lurk means they don't totally suck when they leave Synapse because you do actually want them shooting their ranged weapons as often as they can. Pretty much one of the better choices regardless of army build and points limit.

Lictor (Lurk): Ew. Chameleonic Skin would be okay, if Pheramone Trail applied to itself, but it doesn't. Which means you need Hive Commanders or Swarmlord to stack, and if you're going to be doing that, well, you've already got a Hive Commander or Swarmlord to do the Reserve manipulation already instead. S6 Rending Flesh Hooks would be okay, if it wasn't AP- and the Lictor wasn't BS3. Flesh Hooks are not a Demo Charge. Lictors are not Marbo. Given that Lictors will almost always be deployed outside Synapse, 'Lurking' is exactly what Lictors don't want to be doing. Unless you plan on investing heavily in Mycetic Spores, Lictors are otherwise terrible.

Deathleaper (Lurk): Coming at the cost of two and bit Lictors, this guy comes with all the downsides of normal Lictors (which is a lot), but doesn't have the extra wounds that two Lictors would have. Ultimately, you're paying a whole lot of points to reduce an enemy ICs Leadership by D3 (roll a '1'). It can be okay when facing Librarians, but it isn't so much an issue when you already have Shadow in the Warp. Basically just as terrible as a Lictor, except you're paying for two and half of them which you wouldn't normally do anyway.

Venomthropes (Feed): It all depends on how many units you plan to have, and how much natural cover is available for your shooty units and whether or not you plan to run anything expensive (i.e; Warriors) up the board. Warriors are one of the main units that will benefit from this guy, but, so will your Monstrous Creatures, who, without 2+ saves, nor Invulnerables generally need all the help they can get. Keep in mind that Venomthropes are a pain in the arse for your opponent and they probably will end up targeting it - a lot. To that end, it's often helpful to keep them out of LoS (their cloud still works), or to walk them behind Monstrous Creatures (Carnifii and Hive Tyrants love Venomthropes). If anything, a Venomthrope should always have a 4+ cover save by being behind another unit. Good unit. But only if you need it. Feeding shouldn't usually be a problem since the things that most need Cover Saves (who the Venomthropes should be babysitting) nearly all have Synapse.

Zoanthropes: Note the Synapse. The difference between these guys and Hive Guard is +10 points for less toughness, and needing LoS to shoot (and, in return, being in opposing LoS). Warp Lance is okay, Warp Blast isn't that great. The other problem being the problem that all psychic shooting attacks have; Roll test. Roll To Hit. Instead of just rolling To Hit straight up (Hive Guard). The other thing to note is that both Lance and Blast are within range of Psychic Hoods which generally screw over every single Zoanthrope ever, and Runes of Warding are even worse. They can be decent in a Mycetic Spore, but, Zoanthropes are surprisingly fragile given their 3+ Invulnerable, and using a Mycetic Spore usually just drops them in the middle of your opponent's formation. So I hope your incredibly difficult powers go off...Even though you could pay less points for more durability and reliability...

Zoanthropes hit hard and die easily. Hive Guard hit reasonably and don't die easily for less points. Nearly everyone prefers Hive Guard because in the current meta Psychic Hoods are basically standard. And Hive Guard ignore Cover which is basically awesome on toast.

Doom of Malan'tai (Feed): Half again the cost of a Zoanthrope. Spirit Leech and Absorb Life are fine. Except they aren't. Spirit Leech allows cover saves, and doesn't work at all against anything in a vehicle (even Open-Topped ones), which, sadly, is the majority of the meta-game. Malan'tai must be in a Mycetic Spore, otherwise your opponent will piss themselves and aim everything at Malan'tai, that'll happen anyway once you land, but it's better than losing him on the first turn and not doing anything. Most of the time, Spirit Leech will happen once, so it had better count. Cataclysm is decent, but, remember that you're using a Mycetic Spore (right?) and Malan'tai is not Synapse (if I had 5c everytime someone assumed that he did...I'd have like, a dollar), which means if he fails his check (Ld10, thankfully) he can't use Cataclysm because he'll be affected by totally-stupid-Tyranid-version of Rage where he can't shoot.
Glass Cannon. And Glass Cannons are not good.

Pyrovores (Feed): Just bad. None of the Tyranid players I speak to have ever found a use for them (3 in a Mycetic Spore seems to be the only choice, and it still isn't a good one). And this author has never found them particularly threatening. Feel free to totally ignore. Due to having halfway decent ranged weapons and being absolutely mediocre in Assault, Feed is generally annoying.

Ymgarl Genestealers: I'm yet to hear anyone say that these guys are anywhere even close to being not useful. Certainly, they're not for every Tyranid army, but they're still pretty amazing. Again, these guys have the problem of being mandatory Reserves, meaning that you really need to take Hivemander or Swarmlord for them to be better than they otherwise are (waiting 'til Turn 5 for Reserves is just terrible), and that's not necessarily a bad thing, mind. Just something to think about. When they come out, it's probably best to use the Toughness on the turn they come out, that way they win less (they should never, ever, ever lose combat) and don't completely wipe out the unit they Assault just to be shot at in your opponent's next turn. S5 Rending is also okay against Vehicles and unlike regular Genestealers, their 4+ save means they aren't insta-gibbed by ubiquitous Bolters. Despite being 'named', Ymgarls aren't even Unique.

Ultimately, Zoanthropes and Hive Guard fill the same role. You don't need both. Hive Guard are cheaper and live longer if I haven't made that absolutely clear yet. Venomthropes are for when you play with particularly expensive Monstrous Creatures (like groups of Carnifii) or bricks of Warriors that you absolutely want to get in combat / not die, Venomthropes are also 'better' when you play in a meta with less terrain than you probably should have. Ymgarls will always have a place in any army - if you want them.

Troops
Warriors: Probably the most misused - and therefore misunderstood - units in the entire Codex. Warriors are one of the single-most brutal units in the game, even before upgrades. Since Paladins hit the game, a lot of people try and make Paladin lists with their own Codex - to varying results - and Warriors are actually one of the better expys. Keep in mind that Warriors are Fearless, and walk around hampering Psychic Powers like bosses.

The issue with Warriors is that they often don't get where they need to be. To that end, you actually need to set your army up for them.

Hive Commander; Allows them to Outflank so they don't get brutalised.
Trygon; Allows the Warriors to pop up in your enemy's DZ, but, the Trygon first has to enter play, and Trygons are not exceptionally good anyway.
Venomthrope; If you plan to walk them up the board, basically mandatory.
Mycetic Spore; Drop your Warriors into your enemy's DZ. But Outflanking is way better.

At bare minimum, you'll need Venomthropes, or, walk them behind Carnifex Broods. Carnifex Broods get a bad wrap from most people. But they're just misunderstood like Warriors. Warriors also like - very much - to be given Feel No Pain by a Tervigon.

Scything Talons: Completely irrelevant if you have a Hive Tyrant with Old Adversary (if you want to play that way), but that generally means walking up the board with a Venomthrope or three. Certainly a good standard being that you're WS5. Being joined by a Prime (which means you don't have Old Adversary, so keep the Talons) can bump it up to WS6 to be really not fair.
Rending Claws: Not worth giving up your Talons for, not for 5 points.
Boneswords: Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. This guide was written with the inspiration that Tyranids finally got their second wave models. And Bonesword conversion packs were part of that wave. Rejoice. Unfortunately, the weren't made part of the Warrior box like they should've been this entire time.
Bonesword and Lash Whip: Very rarely should you need to shut down more than one model (and those scary Power Fists are already I1), and your Prime can do that. However, Tyranid Warriors are deathly afraid of Instant Death effects - especially if they go first - and to walk up to a unit of Purifiers and slap their Force Halberds aside and say "NO!" never gets old. Warriors with Lash Whips can mess up Grey Knights in a serious way. Just watch out for those Psycannons - they'll rip you a new one. If your meta isn't lousy with Knights (not the Warband kind, the proper Knights), then you'll be fine with Boneswords.

Devourers: You never need these. Not even shooty warriors want these, not really. If you really feel you need Devourers, take Termagants.
Rending Claws: If you're in combat, you need these. Otherwise a Walker will roflstomp you all day. Scything Talons and Rending Claws is an incredibly cheap and effective option (use Hive Commander). Seriously, all you lose is the Devourer.
Spinefists: Lose a point of strength. Gain AP5 (better than AP- by a long shot), and get Twin-Linked. Not a terrible trade, if not for the fact that you also lose 6" of range. If you need to get rid of Infantry, seriously. You're Warriors. Assault them and mess up their day.
Deathspitters: If you're in a Mycetic Spore, or need strong back-line Troops that don't die, take these. Only 5 points. Why would you not? And then swap your Scything Talons for Rending Claws.
Scything Talons: If you want two sets of Scything Talons, stop, take an Old Adversary instead, and sit in the corner and think about what you've done. There are few - if any - reasons why you'd want a pair of Talons over the Claws.

Neither Barbed Stranglers or Venom Cannons immediately jump out as being better than the other, since they do other things. I know, I know, vehicles are a problem for 'Nids. But S6 isn't anything to write home about. Take one or the other. It probably wont make that much of a difference, but you should have one of them.

Adrenal Glands: If you have Lash Whips, not necessary. If you don't, Boneswords + Adrenal Glands is the same cost and very effective. Very.
Toxin Sacs: You mean you have a hard time cutting through T3 models with Boneswords? Or do you mean that you're fighting T5+ stuff and don't have a boatload of Rending Claw attacks? At which point did you fail so hard that Toxin Sacs looked like a good idea?

Tyranid Warriors are an extremely solid choice. Even though they're actually quite large, they're still not Monstrous Creatures. Put 10 Termagants in front and get a 4+ Cover Save (in fact, according to the fluff, that's what Termagants are for, going ahead of Warriors) and casually walk up the board. Or just have three Carnifii in front and block LoS (the Warriors act as Synapse). If you aren't totally stupid, a Warrior costs 50 points tops, which is less than an un-upgraded Paladin. And Paladins are never not upgraded.

Remember, you've only got a 4+ save and Warriors are highly vulnerable to S8 weapons (Missile Fangs are terrifying for them). Either don't be on the board (Spore/Outflank...Or Trygon :smallyuk:), or have a 50-point Cover Save. Not having Assault Grenades should usually be offset by the fact that each model has three wounds - usually. And Lash Whips fixes that problem immedaitely. Adrenal Glands...Do not.

Genestealers: In short; Have lots or none. And by that I mean multiple Broods, not 20 in one Brood. You should never - ever - need more than 11 in one Brood.

Long form; Always take the Swarmlord. Always Outflank your Genestealers. All of them. Genestealers walk around with S4 Rending Claws as base, which means they have the same chance as ripping a vehicle in half as Warriors. But they have less attacks. But, if you can come off the Outflank and immediately Assault a vehicle, there shouldn't be too much left. The only problem being that you can't Assault whatever comes out if the vehicle is also a Transport - which is problematic. Hope you brought Heavy Vennom Cannons for that.

Scything Talons: 2 points isn't a big deal. Do it.
Adrenal Glads: 3 points isn't a big deal either.
Toxin Sacs: 22 points per Genestealer is getting pretty expensive. You don't need Toxin Sacs, but they're not bad either.

Always take Broodlords. Non-Independent HQ-level Characters rule.

Termagants (Lurk)*: There are two ways to use Termagants. Or, rather three. But in that extra way, you aren't actually using Termagants.

1. 50-point Cover Saves for your non-Monstrous Creatures who want to walk up the board. Have as many or as little as you think you need. Take Adrenal Glands or Toxin Sacs as needed. Don't upgrade any further. You're a cover save. Nothing more. Anything that Termagants do except die is a bonus, and that only happens if you're opponent only shoots whatever is behind the Termagants, and if that happens, aren't you glad for the 4+ Cover Save?

2. Devourers. Lots and lots of Devourers. Put a Synapse near them, and have a Fearless-shooty-death unit on an objective. If you think you need Adrenal Glands and Toxin Sacs on these Devourer-Gants, take Warriors instead.

*3. Tervigons-as-Troops: Take minimum-size squads, do not upgrade. Take Tervigons who carry the upgrades for them. If you play in a Mech-heavy environment, or people have more Lascannons and Plasma/Melta weapons in their army than you have digits (an Autolas Predator is 2, a Plaserback is 2 - not counting the Melta inside), this particular army build falls to crap very quickly. Your Tervigons will be exploding every turn, taking with them a whole lot of Gants.
Tervigons and Gants have no way of dealing with vehicles. No matter how many Gants you spawn, 10bil x 0 = 0. Unless you're Assaulting with Adrenal Glands trying to Glance RA10. And that means your Tervigons had to walk up behind probably not in cover getting shot at - a lot. So I don't actually think that actually happened in a competitive environment.

Hormagaunts (Feed): Basically that first kind of Termagants, except they can't do anything as they walk up the board, except they 'walk' very, very fast (and run out of Synapse range all too often, but then Feed with no ranged weapons, so it's okay). They need either Toxin Sacs or Adrenal Glands. One or the other. Adrenal Glands are better when Outflanking, Toxin Sacs when not. If you do feel like paying 10 points per Hormagaunt, take Warriors instead.

Ripper Swarms: No. They don't Score. They don't provide Cover Saves and each base costs as much as a Termagant with a Devourer - which you would be better off with, because they Score in the back. If you do feel like taking Rippers (because they were free in your other boxes and you need to make points up somehow and instead of buying Regeneration for your Hive Tyrant you take three Ripper bases), Toxin Sacs are really the only worthwhile upgrade...If you took Rippers...

Fast Attack:
Shrikes: Despite what Piccolo of Dragonball says; you can't trade power for speed. Like Xykon of The Order of the Stick says; The only power that matters, is power. Tyranid Shrikes gain Wings (a 12" move speed), and they lose a point of armour. Which now means your super-expensive multi-wound models now don't get a save against Bolters. This is bad. Shrikes still eat S8 to the face too.

But, wait, there's more; You pay extra points, you don't Score, you aren't Troops so don't apply for Hivemander Outflank, and you aren't Infantry so can't come in behind a Trygon (like you'd want to?), and did I mention that you're paying extra points for the same models that don't score?

So, what to do? Well, you're Jump Infantry, so that means you can Deep Strike. That's okay. If Shrikes didn't have to come in massive Broods (at least 6) and have the big bases for extra space to catch terrain/enemy models for mishaps. Just take Deathspitters.

Your other option is Hormagaunts and using them as Cover Saves (like Warriors do with Termagants). If your opponent is nice enough to allow your Fleet moves at the same time as your Move moves, then just make sure you keep your Shrikes behind your Gaunts (even if your Hormagaunts move 8" - and not 12" like your Wings can - you still don't go in front. You. Will. Die. To. Bolters.). If your opponent follows the rules and wants you to stall the game while you move once then move again, then it's a little trickier. But Gaunts should hopefully be moving ~11" a turn.

Biomorphs are the same as Warriors. In fact, take Warriors instead?

Raveners: Take Shrikes instead. Being Beasts is really, really bad, and you don't have Synapse and Shadow. End.

Sky-Slashers: Rippers with Wings. Take Hormagaunts instead.

Gargoyles: Kind of really good. Most Tyranid armies should have at least a unit of 10-16. They're huge models which means Cover Saves for everyone - even MCs. They're also not actually that bad in Assault either.

Harpies: It's T5, which is a bit crappy for a Monstrous Creature which means in can be Instant Death'd. Not easily, but it can.

Stranglethorn Cannon: Not if you have the option of...
Heavy Venom Cannon: A Harpy is 170 points. It's Twin-Linked too!

Cluster Spines/Stinger Salvo: Stinger Salvo has an AP. Think about it.

Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs: A Harpy doesn't want to be in Assault. It's got a Heavy Venom Cannon, it should be shooting it. Since you can move 12" a turn, you should be able to direct - with some degree of reliability - how and when you get into Assault - if at all.
Regeneration: Handy when you need it. Although if you have spare points at the end of your list, giving Regeneration to your Hive Tyrant and/or Troop-Tervigons should take priority. Better in every way than a Ripper base.

Harpies bring Heavy Venom Cannons to the table. Twin-Linked! The new Hive Tyrant box comes with a set of Wings which you aren't going to use when you make your HVC Hive Tyrant(s) and Swarmlord because you're using Tyrant Guard and/or a better Armour Save, right? So, yeah. You know what to do.

Spore Mines: If you're in the 'casual' meta-game, which is all Infantry, all the time. Maybe a few vehicles - maybe. Then Spore Mines often win the game before the game even starts. Drop 12 or so of them into your opponent's DZ before he even gets to deploy and they can't really put their models anywhere else they start blowing up. Good times. Also very handy for Infiltration denial as your opponent can't put his stuff within 12/18" of them. Sometimes you want to Infiltrate into your own DZ (it happens a fair bit, too), and having Spore Mines in their DZ means they can't even put their Infiltrators in their own DZ because there are enemy models within 18", and they can't put them in the middle because that's near your DZ and all of a sudden, Infiltrators have to Outflank or go in Reserve because they can't legally be put on the board if their owner declared them as Infiltrating because their Deployment Phase is over. So they have to Infiltrate...Off the board...lol.

Heavy Supprt:
Carnifex Brood (Feed): Similar to Warriors, these guys are nearly always misused, and therefore very misunderstood when it comes to their abilities. S9 is all well and good, but that I1 is incredibly bad. If you don't have an Invulnerable Save, you shouldn't be in Assault. They are Fearless, which is kind of helpful, but they still aren't Synapse. If you really wanted to, you can join a Prime to the unit - yes, even if you only have one Carnifex, he still counts as a 'unit'.

Crushing Claws: No. Don't pay points for these. Even if you do get into combat, if you can't do it with 4(+1) Monstrous Creature attacks, you're in the wrong combat.
Deathspitter, Devourers: Paying 175 Points to be the equivalent of 4 Termagants, or one Warrior isn't my idea of efficient.

Stranglethorn Cannon: As we've seen before, always ignore for...
Heavy Venom Cannon: Anything in the 'dex that can take these things, should be taking them, no exceptions. Remember, if this guy fails his IB check (Ld7), he can't shoot. Which is why being babysat by a Prime is kind of a good idea. Kind of.

Frag Spines: Only ever take if you also take...
Adrenal Glands: Taking these means that you're trying to be in Assault, I hope you didn't pick up Crushing Claws to go last instead of I4. And that's only if you initiate. If your opponent initiates against your Carnfiex, he's probably got a plan, and it isn't going to end well for you.
Toxin Sacs: Meh. I wouldn't go spending points on it if I didn't have to. But, if you are building Combatifex, re-rolls To Hit with your Talons (What happened to Old Adversary Hive Tyrant?) then re-rolls To Wound with your Toxins is alright, I guess. But I hope you've taken the previous upgrades too.
Bio-Plasma: Unlike Hive Tyrants, Carnifexes actually have a second weapon that synergises with the Heavy Venom Cannon, and - for Tyranids, at least - it's a valuable source of AP2. Take it even if running an Assault Carnifex.
Regeneration: Probably not worth it.

A Carnifex shouldn't really be in Assault. The Heavy Hitters of today's game (Sanguinary Guard, GKs with Halberds, Hammernators) will stomp it with ease. That said, even if you do take a Heavy Venom Cannon, that doesn't stop you from being a Monstrous Creature. So, if there is an opportunity for an Assault - which you can win, say, against Guardsmen - then you can go for it. HVC and Bio-Plasma is great, both ignore FNP.

That said, a Harpy costs about the same but isn't as effective in Assault. And can fly.

Old One Eye: No. Take a Trygon Prime or a Tyrannofex instead. I wont say any more on the matter. He's over-costed and he's bad. Which makes him double bad. Bad, bad.

Biovores (Lurk): These things are great when your opponent hasn't Meched-up like a boss. If your meta-game knows what they're doing, these become very useless, very quickly. If they don't...Well, even when Biovores miss, they hit.

Trygon (Feed): The Trygon, oh, the Trygon. It's alright. I mean, it isn't bad. But it's competing for slots with the less expensive, more effective Carnifex, and the more expensive, more effective Tyrannofex. Don't bother with any of the upgrades, you've either got Assault in the bag as it is, or your opponent is unloading so many shots into you having Regeneration wont even matter.

Opinions are divided on whether to Deep Strike it or not. It'll take a minimum three turns to be in Assault - that's minimum, remember. Wheras if you don't Deep Strike, you will be in Assault on Turn 2. The difference is how much you get shot at. You can use a Venomthrope to give Cover Saves, you can use another MC for Cover Save (Tyrant with Guard), etc.

+ Prime: A 40-point upgrade to upgrade your gun, and to give Synapse and Shadow. Instinctive Behaviour doesn't matter on a Trygon since Feed is what he wants to be doing and his gun isn't that important that you should care whether he fires it or not. Being a Prime is usually not worth it, and you'd probably be better off getting the other upgrades. Adrenal Glands couldn't hurt.

Mawloc: If you really want an Assault Carnifex, take one of these instead. Where possible, don't start him in Reserve. If he begins the game on the board and Burrows in Turn 1, he is guarenteed to come on next turn. Wheras otherwise, he is not, and you'll have to take steps to make that happen. Like Hive Commander or Swarmlord. Another source of AP2 which is immensely helpful, but a Carnifex has an HVC. Carnifexes are really, really good in the Heavy Support slot (if you aren't using the points for Harpies).

Tyrannofex (Lurk): Rupture Cannon always. Stinger Salvo same as the others. And Electroshock Grubs is probably the best Thorax slot. Regeneration optional. Never take the other upgrades. Where points allow, you should alternate between Carnifexes and Tyrannofexes. Tyrannofexes are better than Carnifexes, but two Carnifexes are better than one Tyrannofex. Again, it has to do with how many points you have to play around with.

One Carnifex.
If you have the points, swap for a Tyrannofex.
If you have the points, swap for two Carnifexes.
If you have the points, swap for two Tyrannofexes.
If you have the points, swap for three Carnifexes.
If you have the points, swap for three Tyrannofexes.

Once you're at 4+ Carnifexes (2+1+1), you don't really need Tyrannofexes anymore.

Elite_Lurker

2012-03-04, 10:12 AM

Okay, a Tau list to comment on. Let's take a look.

First, he's illegal. If you have a Vectored Retro-thruster, you can't have Drones. So just drop the Thruster and you're good to go. He's an okay damage dank, but a little pricey for my tastes even with the VRT gone. Consider making him a Shas'el and giving him a Targetting Array to save you some more points. Also, your points are incorrect. As-is, he's 150 points. Without the VRT, he's 140. Otherwise, Plas/CIB is my favorite Commander setup and the lone Drone is great defence and deterrant. A solid HQ choice, but overly expensive in 500 points. If you take my advice and make him an 'El, you've got a bunch more points to spend on Moar Gun.

Yeah, this doesn't work. First, you can only have one Stimulant Injector per army, so that's illegal. Second, you can't give normal Crisis Suits Hardwired gear, so the build is illegal as well. Finally, you're wasting a bunch of points on the Team Leader for no reason and your points cost is wrong. Two Crisis Suits with Plasma, Missiles and Multitrackers sets you back 124 points. Use that instead for a legal, non-wasteful option. Also, seperate them into two individual units. You'll be happier that way.

The Broadside needs a support system. Since he's all on his own, I'd suggest a Drone Controller with a Shield Drone or a Targetting Array.

If you make the changes to the Commander and the Crisis Suits I suggested, you'll have 60 points to throw around. Throw a TA at the Broadside and you've got 50 left; increase the size of your Fire Warrior squads to 8 and 9 respectively with the points, unless you can get ahold of a bunch of Kroot to replace the second squad with 16 Kroot and bring the first squad up to 7 (the optimal number for morale purposes).

Interestingly, a well-built Tau army tends to perform extremely well at 500 points, especially in comparison to Marine armies which get little to no choice in what to take. Most opponents won't be able to afford more than 1-2 transport vehicles (if they have any at all), which your Battlesuits will destroy in short order, and your Crisis Suits have an extreme amount of room to maneuvre. No Eldar, DE or BA in your metagame means that the Tau players will have a massive maneuvrability advantage, which you should take full advantage of. Dance around the enemy, blast them and retreat whenever they get close. You don't even have to worry about some Guard player bringing seventy soldiers and just blowing you out of the water with massed firepower.
Thanks for the advice. I was half-asleep when I made the list, so that's probably the cause of most of the errors. I ran the list with the changes you suggested yesterday against a Grey Knights player, and it did quite well. We were playing a casual game of Annihalation, except to win, you had to kill all your opponent's units. I won with my 2 Crisises (One had taken a wound), 8 FWs, and the Broadside remaining. Thanks again for the help. I'm looking forward to fielding this.

Tome

2012-03-04, 07:20 PM

Got a chance to try out the list I posted earlier.

I was up against a Pedro Kantor list on Annihilation and Dawn of War. I won 6 kill points to 1.

The Vindicare, Dreadnoughts and Terminators performed as they usually do - which is to say, very well.

Incidentally, guess how many GK Termies it takes to kill a full unit of ten Vanguard kitted out with power weapons? Two, with Psychotrokes. Seriously, I love those things. Definitely keeping them. :smallbiggrin:

The Psyker squads performed brilliantly for their cost, killing tanks and marines in quantity - including Kantor, once they'd evaporated his Sternguard escort. Failed to get the power off a couple of times, but luckily didn't Perils. I'll give them a few more games to check, but they definitely seem worth it.

So far it seems like the list is working well. I'll have to give them a try against a different army next time.

Hootman

2012-03-04, 09:42 PM

[...]Pedro Kantor[...]
[...]a full unit of ten Vanguard[...]

...What was your opponent thinking? o.O That's like 400 points that they didn't spend on Sternguard. Or any units that are actually good for Codex Marines to field (based on my experience, anyways).

I do not mean to undermine your victory, and the performance of your Psycho-Terminators WAS very impressive, but...what the hell, Opponent.

Cheesegear

2012-03-05, 05:34 AM

Due to totally forseen circumstances, it looks like I'm going to have to drop out of next weekend's tournament. I can not get 40 models 3-coloured-and-based by next Saturday.

Sigh. Cancel that. TO was woefully unclear (aren't they always?) and all I really need is an under/base coat but then I get 0s and 1s for painting. But, since you guys know me you know the only things I care about are Sportsmanship and Battle and playing the game.
So it's all good.

Eldan

2012-03-05, 09:43 AM

Can I just say that I love the rules for ramming?

I have a fire prism. Opponent drops a dreadnaught basically on top of it and destroys the main weapon.

In retaliation, I fly a bit over 30" across the board and ram his land raider. Penetrating hit, land raider is destroyed. Fire prism is shaken.

Eldan

2012-03-05, 09:44 AM

Renegade Paladin

2012-03-05, 04:59 PM

Wraith

2012-03-05, 05:31 PM

Eh, minimum painting requirements are just vanity on behalf of the TO, I think.

If I felt so inclined, I could spray paint my army black, drybrush everything Fortress Grey and quickly splash some Mithril Silver across weapons. Three colours, fully 'legal' and they still look like plain resin with white metal bits glued to them! :smallbiggrin:

If you want to punish people for not having properly painted armies, give them something like -1 for their Painting Score and let them play anyway.
The GOOD Players will make up for the loss by winning games anyway, painted models or not, and everyone else will be allowed to play meaning your event is bigger and busier than those that exclude Players for having better things to do than paint little toy soldiers. :smalltongue:

lord_khaine

2012-03-05, 06:40 PM

I'm more of a gunline player myself (In no small part due to the fact that when I started out, there was no such thing as Mechanized Necrons, and I'm still skeptical about how effective such an army would be, without massive numbers of converted Night Scythes and Doom Scythes). But ultimately, go with what seems cooler to you.

It has become my experience that all you need is a couple of converted Doom Scythes, to make your Necron army work great.

And it really is quite easy to make a decent conversion out of a Fire Prism or Wave Serpent.

Tehnar

2012-03-05, 07:00 PM

Timberwolf

2012-03-05, 07:13 PM

I'm contemplating buying a Ork Battlewagon, and I am wondering:

- are they worth taking?
- is the deff rolla any good? ie do ramming attacks happen all that often

My poor Warhound (No I didn't know exactly how Flank March worked at the time...) says yes, Deff Rollas work. And Ramming happens often enough if you really go for it.

evisiron

2012-03-05, 07:40 PM

And Officers of the Fleet can't hit for poop. Drop 3 Ratlings, drop a guy who can't hit anything, and gain a whole new set of Orders.

Sorry dude, I would have expected him to hit at least about 1/3 of the time! :smallwink:

Though on Saturday I did get to see 3 Ratlings absorb half a table's worth of Tau firepower before finally dying. Needing to beat 2+ cover to kill 10pt models is a cruel fate indeed.

Best of luck at the tourney!

evisiron

2012-03-05, 07:53 PM

I'm contemplating buying a Ork Battlewagon, and I am wondering:

- are they worth taking?
- is the deff rolla any good? ie do ramming attacks happen all that often
- is it better to leave it open topped for it to be a assault vehicle, or cover it up for better protection?

1. Yes, if you take several. If there is only one Big Tank on the board it will have an entire armies worth of anti tank pointed at it.
2. Super Yes! In an army with weak, weeeeaaak anti tank, S10 is wonderful. Even when there is no tanks about and it no longer need to transport, the extra d6 S10 hits make people really thing hard about Death or Glory, and causing Instant Death on things like Ogryns and Thunderwolves is bliss.
3. Open topped, definately. Orks need that charge to win the tougher fights, so being able to charge from a moving tank is vital.

Remember, take a couple full of boys, keep them close and have a KFF Mek in the middle one, and you now have a wall of AV14 that will negate hits with a 4+ save.

Have fun!

nyarlathotep

2012-03-05, 08:02 PM

I'm contemplating buying a Ork Battlewagon, and I am wondering:

- are they worth taking?
- is the deff rolla any good? ie do ramming attacks happen all that often
- is it better to leave it open topped for it to be a assault vehicle, or cover it up for better protection?

In my experience, albeit limited as is, it is never a good idea to take closed top on an orc vehicle. It makes it more likely that your infantry will die when it is shot and destroyed. Deff rollas are good if you know how to use them orienting your battlewagon for maximum rams in any given situation, though even then they only shine against an infantry heavy army. Otherwise it is a fairly solid vehicle for getting your warboss to the front lines, but it isn't a main battle tank so don't expect it to be.