OOTS #843 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Lvl45DM!]

Damn V. You did a bad bad thing. I suppose saving the world will help make up for it. But damn.

[RMS Oceanic]

Now that's what we call despair.

I wonder, did that trap kill Vaarsuvius or just confine him/her? If it was fatal, it would be a great opportunity for the IFCC to act on their bargain now.

[Paseo H]

Well, looks like illusions weren't their only weapon.

[The_Final_Stand]

Well, that's one way to gain perspective...

[pasta]

Damn. Seeing V cry like that felt so ... raw. He's shown vulnerability before, but nothing like that.

On another note, does anyone else think the title also applies to the trap in the last panel? :smalltongue:

[Xiander]

:smalleek: I hadn't thought of that...

On the upside, this does give us a firmer grasp of the effects of the familicide spell.

Great comic.

[Tingel]

I wonder, did that trap kill Vaarsuvius or just confine him/her?

Doesn't look fatal to me, as the trapdoor sprung open in time to prevent Vaarsuvius and the raven being crushed to death. They are just trapped below the floor now.

[ZerglingOne]

Vaarsuvius more than anything right now, needs a hug. A big big hug of consolation.

[Daywalker1983]

I'm still Not clear in how exactlY Familicide Works...so it Wohle habe Killed a Child of penelope ans Tarquin (ans that. Childs children), but Not Tarquin? Or is this One of Thies situations where the characters themaelves also don't have all the Information?

[Pheldagriff]

did anyone predict V running away? I saw much speculating about V confessing or V keeping shut, but this?
I didn't, but in retrospective, it should have been expected. remember when V hat one spell left back during the siege of azure city? ^^

[Francis Davey]

I'm strongly hoping that V survives this and can find redemption and forgiveness.

[Onyavar]

Wow. That trap is a bit oddly designed. You would have expected to either crush V dead, or land her in the pit. But this way, it seems overbuilt to me.

Or was the trapdoor simply activated by someone who heard V talk to himself? Someone who's name starts with G?

Also: answers to all the big F questions. No need to speculate about that from now on. :smallsmile:

[Lynn]

I expected her to freak out.
I'm glad that V is accepting the responsibility for her act, not telling herself "it wasn't my fault, I was under evil influence", or something like that.

[1dominator]

Damn, thats epic level spellcasting alright. That spell is like the hand of god, striking from the heavens!

[Skeppio]

"My deed has no justification, no excuse."

THANK YOU!!! FINALLY!!! :smallfurious:

[Cronos988]

And that should put an end to the Familicide mega thread ;).

Also a great way to share Vs feelings and at the same time keeping hir from falling into a complete depression by distracting hir ^^

[SmaugTheYounger]

Again, this clears things up. Also, V has a conscience. And... the wizard is out again. What a masterful mess!

[ShinyRocks]

Holy shnizz.

On a lighter note, I love the sound effects for the trap.

[Tom Lehmann]

Wow. That trap is a bit oddly designed. You would have expected to either crush V dead, or land her in the pit. But this way, it seems overbuilt to me.
It seems designed to definitely put an intruder *into* the pit -- no jumping aside as the pit opens beneath, due to a block of stone already on its way down.

I'm guessing anyone who penetrated this building was supposed to be captured for questioning (and assumed to be tough/high level enough to survive the block).

And, so begins the long, slow redemption of V...

[Ron Miel]

Anyone getting the impression V knew the trap was there and stepped on it deliberately?

[Skeppio]

And, so begins the long, slow redemption of V...

Lord, I hope not. V said it hirself. No justification. No excuse.

Besides, V's gotta pay for all this, after all. I'm hoping for fiend-control, confessions, V being kicked out of the order (and hopefully killed), something nice like that. :smallamused:

[Turanar]

Wow, that IS an EPIC spell !

So if Penelope had a child with Tarquin, the child would have been killed, and as Tarquin share blood with the child, he would have been killed, and Elan too because he is Tarquin's Son ...

So, V was close to kill Elan O_o !

EDIT: sorry mispelled Tarquin

[OmniknightJohn]

So Familicide did jump to all of the spouses of the Draketooths. Wow. V not only genocided 1/4 of the BD population, he also killed hundreds of innocent people.

I guess he appears to be repentant though?

I wonder if the devas in the afterlife will give him a second chance? I'm not sure I would

[Burner28]

Wow, that IS an EPIC spell !

So if Penelope had a child with Tarkin, the child would have been killed, and as Tarkin share blood with the child, he would have been killed, and Elan too because he is Tarkin's Son ...

So, V was close to kill Elan O_o !

Yep. Think about it for a while.

[Nightmarenny]

Anyone getting the impression V knew the trap was there and stepped on it deliberately?

Um no, she's clearly surprised when she hears the click.

[Ogremindes]

Wow. That trap is a bit oddly designed. You would have expected to either crush V dead, or land her in the pit. But this way, it seems overbuilt to me.

It was probably designed to be paired with illusions. Make the victims team mates think he's dead.

[Skeppio]

I wonder if the devas in the afterlife will give him a second chance? I'm not sure I would

I sure as hell wouldn't. There'd be a lot of celestial laughter from me (if I was a Deva) before condemning V to hell though. :smallbiggrin:

[Nightmarenny]

Lord, I hope not. V said it hirself. No justification. No excuse.

Besides, V's gotta pay for all this, after all. I'm hoping for fiend-control, confessions, V being kicked out of the order (and hopefully killed), something nice like that. :smallamused:

I don't think you understand the word "redemption".

[GMantis]

I'm still Not clear in how exactlY Familicide Works...so it Wohle habe Killed a Child of penelope ans Tarquin (ans that. Childs children), but Not Tarquin? Or is this One of Thies situations where the characters themaelves also don't have all the Information?
The Familicide killed all creatures who were relatives of the black dragon and all creatures who were relatives of any of those creatures (even if they weren't related to the black dragon). So Tarquin wouldn't have been killed if he and Penelope had a child, because he would be only related to their child, not to its half-sibling, which was the one directly related to the black dragon.

[RMS Oceanic]

I'm still Not clear in how exactlY Familicide Works...so it Wohle habe Killed a Child of penelope ans Tarquin (ans that. Childs children), but Not Tarquin? Or is this One of Thies situations where the characters themaelves also don't have all the Information?

It looks like Familicide is truly exhaustive, looking at the panel where a whole family was killed. It's like a recursive program: Kill everyone biologically related to the target, then replicate the spell with those victims as new targets. If Penelope and Tarquin had children, those children would be dead, then Tarquin, then Elan and Nale, and then their Mother and her family. It is truly Epic.

[tcrudisi]

I doubt V is dead. The trap looks like it was designed to catch someone. Perhaps this is where we find the Draketooths? (Yeah, I'm still of the belief that it was an illusion, at least for a few more strips.)

[B. Dandelion]

The right-utmost panel on the second page should debunk the "Familicide can't penetrate through the anti-magic cells (thus allowing Ian to be part Draketooth)" theory.

I do gain some respect and sympathy for V who is not trying to duck out of responsibility or rationalize her acts.

[Killer Angel]

Wow, that IS an EPIC spell !


That, as a side effect, broke Vaarsuvius.

[Skeppio]

I don't think you understand the word "redemption".

I understand exactly what redemption is. And genocide is a pretty good way to find oneself in the "beyond redemption" category. Even if you take responsibility and blame for it, the act isn't erased or undone. :smallannoyed:

[Faltenin]

Hmmmm - wasn't expecting the "moving sideways across family trees" part - and especially not Tarquin's wife! The OOTS is definitely not getting all these powerful NPCs on their side (Tarquin, Draketooth if he somehow escaped this ???)

Handy little "suicide-O-matic" there just when V needed one.

Sorry - I need to go check my Dragonborn is still OK!! (logs into Skyrim)

[hamishspence]

In the context of D&D, it's possible that there is no such thing as "completely beyond redemption"- even fiends have redeemed themselves.

I doubt that V can be redeemed in this life- but genuine repentance may lead to a second life which V can spend trying to be redeemed (Hellbred, from FC2).

[Nightmarenny]

I understand exactly what redemption is. And genocide is a pretty good way to find oneself in the "beyond redemption" category. :smallannoyed:

Irrelevant when it comes to your post not making sense.

"Lord, I hope not. V said it hirself. No justification. No excuse."?

Redemption means she wouldn't be making excuses or justification.

[Diadem]

I understand exactly what redemption is. And genocide is a pretty good way to find oneself in the "beyond redemption" category. Even if you take responsibility and blame for it, the act isn't erased or undone. :smallannoyed:
It's not genocide. It's like V said, firing a fireball into a crowded theatre.

I don't see why V would be beyond redemption. Even if we assume that anybody is beyond redemption, which is not an assumption I am comfortable with, I don't see why such a strong term would apply to her.

[oppyu]

All the forum posters who hate V should print this strip out and frame it.

On a different note, how did Familicide not kill... well, everything? From the way V describes it, it seems like it would have killed every dragon, human and anything else dragons breed with on the planet.

[Tom Lehmann]

Repentance traditionally requires more than just full acceptance of what was done, an admission of guilt, and the resolution never to do it again -- there's also that sticky business of making amends and restitution, as well as submitting to some outside justice for judgement.

And redemption requires even more.

[Benhazar]

Wow, Superpowered-Splicer uses... Pink Miles?

That trap looks like it was designed to prevent reflex saves or whatever. Wonder where he's gone?

[Mangles]

Love the double play with the title

Lack of foresight of cause also referring to Foresight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/foresight.htm). A wizards friend against trap's and sneak attacks.

[Nightmarenny]

It's not genocide. It's like V said, firing a fireball into a crowded theatre.

I don't see why V would be beyond redemption. Even if we assume that anybody is beyond redemption, which is not an assumption I am comfortable with, I don't see why such a strong term would apply to her.

Well she did kill several thousand sentient innocents to spite(not defeat!) an already dead dragon.

There is at least an argument to be made. Assuming you think anyone can be beyond redemption.

[AngelusAlvus]

I don't get it. If the families of the people who married a Draketooth are dead, then why is Tarquin even alive since he married that woman, who had previously married a Draketooth.

[Nightmarenny]

Repentance traditionally requires more than just full acceptance of what was done, an admission of guilt, and the resolution never to do it again -- there's also that sticky business of making amends and restitution, as well as submitting to some outside justice for judgement.

And redemption requires even more.

Which is why the poster that started this said it was the start of redemption.

[Tordek]

When is the death of Tarquin's wife discussed? I dont recall what strip # it was.

[St Fan]

It looks like Familicide is truly exhaustive, looking at the panel where a whole family was killed. It's like a recursive program: Kill everyone biologically related to the target, then replicate the spell with those victims as new targets. If Penelope and Tarquin had children, those children would be dead, then Tarquin, then Elan and Nale, and then their Mother and her family. It is truly Epic.

Exactly. And it's always been the way I understood the spell. I don't why so many forumers thought it would stop at 2 steps, just from the short description Darth V gave. It was obvious Familicide is much more deadly than that.

[Skeppio]

It's not genocide. It's like V said, firing a fireball into a crowded theatre.

I don't see why V would be beyond redemption. Even if we assume that anybody is beyond redemption, which is not an assumption I am comfortable with, I don't see why such a strong term would apply to her.

Killing thousands, possibly hundreds of thousands, of innocent people purely to spite one dragon, who was only hostile to V because she was blinded with rage and grief over her sole child, that V killed. How the hell can one be redeemed after that? All the good deeds and heroics in the world don't bring back the countless victims of V's personal grudge.


All the forum posters who hate V should print this strip out and frame it.

I think I might just do that. :smallamused:

[Nightmarenny]

I don't get it. If the families of the people who married a Draketooth are dead, then why is Tarquin even alive since he married that woman, who had previously married a Draketooth.

Marriage has nothing to do with this.

[Xiander]

I don't get it. If the families of the people who married a Draketooth are dead, then why is Tarquin even alive since he married that woman, who had previously married a Draketooth.

Not married. Had children with. V explicitly remarks upon thet in the strip.

[The Giant]

Let's keep this discussion away from whether or not it is possible to be redeemed for one's actions. That is waaaaay too close to, "Was V morally justified?" and as we all know, morally-justified discussions aren't within the forum boundaries. OK? OK.

[Nightmarenny]

Killing thousands, possibly hundreds of thousands, of innocent people purely to spite one dragon, who was only hostile to V because she was blinded with rage and grief over her sole child, that V killed. How the hell can one be redeemed after that? All the good deeds and heroics in the world don't bring back the countless victims of V's personal grudge.

This post has been Redacted

[Kish]

Killing thousands, possibly hundreds of thousands, of innocent people purely to spite one dragon, who was only hostile to V because she was blinded with rage and grief over her sole child, that V killed. How the hell can one be redeemed after that? All the good deeds and heroics in the world don't bring back the countless victims of V's personal grudge.
My concern is more...Vaarsuvius continues to not get it.

"Oh, crap! I killed a lot of humans too! It would be just fine if the spell had only hit dragons, but I should have known it wouldn't!" Gaaah. No, Vaarsuvius, I still hate you. Suffer.

[Faltenin]

BTW - as I was scrolling down slowly I could just see at the bottom of the page the big panel slamming down, but couldn't see the trap door yet. I really expected to see a red mushy puddle... if that was a layout on purpose, it worked!

Would the murdering of innocents count as negative xp?

[GMantis]

It looks like Familicide is truly exhaustive, looking at the panel where a whole family was killed. It's like a recursive program: Kill everyone biologically related to the target, then replicate the spell with those victims as new targets. If Penelope and Tarquin had children, those children would be dead, then Tarquin, then Elan and Nale, and then their Mother and her family. It is truly Epic.
No, it doesn't seem to be like that. It would only kill those who shared the bloodline of one of the relatives of the black dragon, but not their relatives as well (or their relatives, or so on). That's at least according to the spell description here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0640.html). If it worked like you describe it, the spell would probably kill all humans on the planet.

[RMS Oceanic]

When is the death of Tarquin's wife discussed? I dont recall what strip # it was.

821 has Tarquin and Nale accusing each other of killing her, thus confirming neither of them did it.


I don't get it. If the families of the people who married a Draketooth are dead, then why is Tarquin even alive since he married that woman, who had previously married a Draketooth.

Familicide looks for blood ties, genetic relationships. Tarquin and Penelope were related by law, but not biologically related to each other. Had they had a child together, the child and Tarquin would have died.

[St Fan]

I don't get it. If the families of the people who married a Draketooth are dead, then why is Tarquin even alive since he married that woman, who had previously married a Draketooth.

Because Penelope and Tarquin didn't have children. It doesn't work through marriage, it goes through "blood relation". Penelope had a child with Orrin, thus she was targeted.

[B. Dandelion]

I think if the spell could have killed Tarquin, Vaarsuvius would have mentioned it. Why bring up the hypothetical child he could have had with Penelope, state it would kill the child, but just omit mention of Tarquin and his kids? It's totally not worth mentioning V came within spitting distance of murdering Elan?

Clause 1 kills Draketooths, Clause 2 kills non-Draketooths related by blood to a Draketooth.

Tarquin is neither, even with a child by Penelope. The child wouldn't have "blood of the dragon". Penelope and the kid would die for having Draketooth kin, but since Tarquin's child had no dragon blood his/herself, Tarquin could have no Draketooth relatives and was safe.

What is made clear is that the spell is broad in determining who's close enough to be considered a relative, not that it makes more than the specified two jumps to murder relatives of the relatives of the relatives relatives.

[willpell]

I like how Haerta designed a spell to kill everyone who was a blood relative of her enemy, but did absolutely nothing about non-blood relations, which are often far more likely to seek revenge than distant cousins. Apparently Evil Is Dumb. (Granted she may have intended it as a deterrence weapon or something rather than the use to which V put it, but her soul didn't seem surprised by this application.)

(Edited per the Giant.)

[Mauve Shirt]

Le Gods. Not saying casting that terrible spell doesn't completely deserve this, but poor V.
If Familicide only goes after blood relations, then there must have been a lot of inbreeding among those who look after the gate. No spouses made it alive? Perhaps Girard shared Ian's "blood is the trustworthiest tie" attitude. At least we're sure now that they're not related.

[Tom Lehmann]

Which is why the poster that started this said it was the start of redemption.
Yes; that was me -- we are violently in agreement.

V has a long, long arc of character growth to come if V is going to surmount this.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

A spell that doubles back? Yikes! It would have been bad enough just going "down" the family trees, but this spell also goes back "up" the other branches!

Let's just say it was a good thing Girard was paranoid, and minimized leaving the compound. If he had been free and easy with his family, how many more would have been affected? :smalleek:

[Nightmarenny]

Le Gods. Not saying casting that terrible spell doesn't completely deserve this, but poor V.
If Familicide only goes after blood relations, then there must have been a lot of inbreeding among those who look after the gate. No spouses made it alive? Perhaps Girard shared Ian's "blood is the trustworthiest tie" attitude. At least we're sure now that they're not related.

...

No.

All spouses the family had were seduced to create children and then abandoned. There are no spouses at the Draketooth home.

[Nightmarenny]

Yes; that was me -- we are violently in agreement.

V has a long, long arc of character growth to come if V is going to surmount this.

Oh sorry about that.

[M84]

I like how Haerta designed a spell to kill everyone who was a blood relative of her enemy, but did absolutely nothing about non-blood relations, which are often far more likely to seek revenge than distant cousins. Apparently Evil Is Dumb. (Granted she may have intended it as a deterrence weapon or something rather than the use to which V put it, but her soul didn't seem surprised by this application.)

(Edited per the Giant.)

It's understandable that even an evil monster like Haerta would place limits on her spell. If she had made it less inclusive, it probably could have killed nearly everyone of the same species on the planet, including herself -- every member of a species is very distantly related after all.

Edit:

I think it would be hilarious if it turns out Haerta did accidentally kill herself with Familicide by not realizing that she was actually related to the target.

[GMantis]

Exactly. And it's always been the way I understood the spell. I don't why so many forumers thought it would stop at 2 steps, just from the short description Darth V gave. It was obvious Familicide is much more deadly than that.
There is no evidence that the spell would work beyond those 2 steps, so it's not surprising that most forumers think like that. Vaarsuvius doesn't seem to think that the spell works like that, or he/she would have added something to the effect that she would have also killed Tarquin and his children if he had a child with Penelope.
The spell description said "Anyone who could possibly make a claim to be related to [the black dragon] is gone now". If the spell had no limits, it would not only have killed many who couldn't make a claim to be related to the Black dragon, but probably all Humans on the Planet.

[Francis Davey]

Wow. That trap is a bit oddly designed. You would have expected to either crush V dead, or land her in the pit. But this way, it seems overbuilt to me.

My take on this is that someone wanted to make a really effective trap that avoided any reflex save nonsense of jumping clear before they fell through the trap door.

Bother: that was delayed and obsoleted by other remarks.

I like the idea that this could have been accompanied by an illusion, so adventurers might have seen a squashed flat party member (illusory) without seeing the trap door. Hard to make illusions that good, but this is the place to do it.

[namarx]

maybe it's just me, but i think something is wrong with the timeline -
the bodies have been dead for 2 weeks. lets assume 2 months.
V had gone loco like a year ago.

anyone?

[RMS Oceanic]

maybe it's just me, but i think something is wrong with the timeline -
the bodies have been dead for 2 weeks. lets assume 2 months.
V had gone loco like a year ago.

anyone?

Comic time != Real time. Belkar being dead "By the end of the year" was over three and a half years ago.

[Nightmarenny]

maybe it's just me, but i think something is wrong with the timeline -
the bodies have been dead for 2 weeks. lets assume 2 months.
V had gone loco like a year ago.

anyone?

V didn't go loco a year ago. The OotS reviews the timeline the very last comic. You may wish to review it. Remember that V's adventure happened the same day Roy was resurrected.

[Dr._Demento]

...and that was the last time anyone saw Vaarsuvius. We pick up our story a year later, after Belkar and Durkon are already dead, because the author is tired of this and is just going to take his million dollars and run to Jamaica.

[Saph]

A spell that doubles back? Yikes! It would have been bad enough just going "down" the family trees, but this spell also goes back "up" the other branches!

Let's just say it was a good thing Girard was paranoid, and minimized leaving the compound. If he had been free and easy with his family, how many more would have been affected? :smalleek:

No kidding. Going down the branches is bad enough, but a spell that keeps spreading THAT far? That could depopulate entire countries!

You really have to wonder what Haerta must have been like to develop a spell like that. :smalleek:


...and that was the last time anyone saw Vaarsuvius. We pick up our story a year later, after Belkar and Durkon are already dead.

Okay, I had to laugh at this.

Though I think Rich would get actual death threats from the forum posters if he stopped the story at this point. :smallbiggrin:

[Kish]

I like how Haerta designed a spell to kill everyone who was a blood relative of her enemy, but did absolutely nothing about non-blood relations, which are often far more likely to seek revenge than distant cousins. Apparently Evil Is Dumb. (Granted she may have intended it as a deterrence weapon or something rather than the use to which V put it, but her soul didn't seem surprised by this application.)
More likely, she designed it to be used for torture. She went by Destroyer of Hope; you think she was worried about preventing retaliation, any more than Xykon is now?

And as far as the use Vaarsuvius put it to..."The pain ended too soon." "We have only begun to bring misery." "There is still so much we can do." She understood what Vaarsuvius was doing with the spell much better than Vaarsuvius did.

[Mooglefrooglian]

To those remarking on the fact that Elan would have died if Penelope had a child with Tarquin, this is not the case.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0640.html

"Every living creature that directly shares your bloodline is dead. Every living creature that is directly related to any of those creatures is dead."

This means that Penelope and her child would have died, and since Tarquin was directly related to the child, then he would have died. Elan would not have died, since he is only indirectly related to Penelope's hypothetical child.

This would not depopulate countries unless cast on a great-great-great-great-great-great (add more if you want!) -grandparent.

The purpose of killing the directly related creature of the bloodline is to prevent one angry parent from sticking around. For example, if you cast it on a mother, it will kill her children. If it didn't kill directly related people, you'd have an angry father on your hands. The purpose of Familicide is to prevent people from seeking revenge for killed family members.

This has been your very own special Mooglelogic post, signing out.

[Wolf_Plague]

I sure as hell wouldn't. There'd be a lot of celestial laughter from me (if I was a Deva) before condemning V to hell though. :smallbiggrin:
Condemning someone to eternal tortures and enjoying that is an Evil act. Your supervisors may want to have a talk with you about that... :smallwink:

On comic:
I guess it's really good to know, that, as was shown in "Roy is dead" plot arc, dying in OotS world is an equivalent of forced deportation out of Material Plane. At least that bunch of random people killed still can live in their respective afterlives...


Well she did kill several thousand sentient innocents to spite(not defeat!) an already dead dragon.
It was to prevent vendetta against V's family.

"Had you simply attacked me I would have left you dead. But you made the mistake of involving my family in our conflict. This leaves me with the task of ensuring that today's events will never rise again to threaten them"

[Vesth]

I'm wayyy more interested in : what's in that trap? If it's meant to capture people, is it Girad that will 'talk' to V?

[faustin]

I´m more interested in if Roy and The Order can forgive V when they find the truth.
Speaking of, after V fell in the trap, shouldn´t his spell on YY broke?

[Nightmarenny]

Condemning someone to eternal tortures and enjoying that is an Evil act. Your supervisors may want to have a talk with you about that... :smallwink:

On comic:
I guess it's really good to know, that, as was shown in "Roy is dead" plot arc, dying in OotS world is an equivalent of forced deportation out of Material Plane. At least that bunch of random people killed still can live in their respective afterlives...


It was to prevent vendetta against V's family.

"Had you simply attacked me I would have left you dead. But you made the mistake of involving my family in our conflict. This leaves me with the task of ensuring that today's events will never rise again to threaten them"

No that's the motive she claims to have. She is lying to herself. It was revenge.

[Skyrunner]

Personally, I think the Familicide travels either up or down. So when the spell hits Mama Dragon, all her ancestors die, and all her descendants die. No proof, but also is an easy way to prevent depopulation o' de world.

[Sunken Valley]

What will V find down the trap door? Speculation!

[Wolf_Plague]

No that's the motive she claims to have. She is lying to herself. It was revenge.
Can I have a prooflink? Too much strips passed since then.

[RMS Oceanic]

I´m more interested in if Roy and The Order can forgive V when they find the truth.
Speaking of, after V fell in the trap, shouldn´t his spell on YY broke?

The spell only ends if Yukyuk makes a save, V dismisses or dispels the spell or V dies.

[GMantis]

To those remarking on the fact that Elan would have died if Penelope had a child with Tarquin, this is not the case.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0640.html

"Every living creature that directly shares your bloodline is dead. Every living creature that is directly related to any of those creatures is dead."

This means that Penelope and her child would have died, and since Tarquin was directly related to the child, then he would have died. Elan would not have died, since he is only indirectly related to Penelope's hypothetical child.

This would not depopulate countries unless cast on a great-great-great-great-great-great (add more if you want!) -grandparent.

The purpose of killing the directly related creature of the bloodline is to prevent one angry parent from sticking around. For example, if you cast it on a mother, it will kill her children. If it didn't kill directly related people, you'd have an angry father on your hands. The purpose of Familicide is to prevent people from seeking revenge for killed family members.

This has been your very own special Mooglelogic post, signing out.
No, that's not how it works, because Vaarsuvius said that the spell had also killed all indirect relatives (siblings and cousins) of those who were only related to one of the relatives of the dragon. So Tarquin and his children (if he had a child with Penelope) would also have been killed if the spell extended to more than two steps, but that contradicts the spell description.

[bhtooefr]

Two possibilities here:

1. V is mistaken about it potentially killing a child between Penelope and Tarquin
2. V isn't mistaken, and Familicide goes FAR further than we thought, in which case it's either got a hop limit when going off the bloodline to stop at that child, or it doesn't and it hits Tarquin, Elan, Nale, and their mother.

[Dr._Demento]

What will V find down the trap door? Speculation!

A NEW CAR!

Oh wait, that was Trap door #3.

She gets a lifetime supply of ACID BREATHING SHARK.

[Nightmarenny]

Can I have a prooflink? Too much strips passed since then.

Admittedly it's an interpretation of the material.

[Cisturn]

Hey guys, I think it's possible that Girard might be alive. We haven't seen body sure, but the only thing that can counter epic magic is epic magic. We know Girard was crazy paranoid, maybe he had some kind of buff up that protected him.

[RMS Oceanic]

Hey guys, I think it's possible that Girard might be alive. We haven't seen body sure, but the only thing that can counter epic magic is epic magic. We know Girard was crazy paranoid, maybe he had some kind of buff up that protected him.

That may well be. The popular theory right now is that he's the Statue from 841, a form of suspended animation until such times as he's needed.

[namarx]

V didn't go loco a year ago. The OotS reviews the timeline the very last comic. You may wish to review it. Remember that V's adventure happened the same day Roy was resurrected.

nope.
i can't discern the exact amount of time elapsed, but it's definately more then 2 weeks, 2 months, or whatever.

i think our beloved rick has has a slight goof here.
s'ok, his stuff is great anyway...

n

[Kish]

So, you don't know what "right" is, but you know Rich is wrong, eh?

Admittedly it's an interpretation of the material.
Just look at the strips, from, "The pain ended too soon." "We have only begun to bring misery." "There is still so much we can do." "I concur. Create Greater Undead!" to, "This, and no less, is the price of threatening my family." Vaarsuvius' transparent, laughable excuse is a transparent, laughable excuse.

[Maximum Zersk]

Poor V. :smallfrown:

[Aaron]

Wow. That trap is a bit oddly designed. You would have expected to either crush V dead, or land her in the pit. But this way, it seems overbuilt to me.

Or was the trapdoor simply activated by someone who heard V talk to himself? Someone who's name starts with G?

Thats what i'm thinking. Either Girard or a non-blood relative heard V's speech and activated the trap. Although that brings to debate again if Girard could have possibly survived. :smallamused:

[RMS Oceanic]

nope.
i can't discern the exact amount of time elapsed, but it's definately more then 2 weeks, 2 months, or whatever.

i think our beloved rick has has a slight goof here.
s'ok, his stuff is great anyway...

n

What makes you think that two comic-months have passed?

[aldeayeah]

I think it would be hilarious if it turns out Haerta did accidentally kill herself with Familicide by not realizing that she was actually related to the target.
I had been wondering about that for a while too.

I can picture her dying with a "Totally worth it" smirk.

[Nightmarenny]

nope.
i can't discern the exact amount of time elapsed, but it's definately more then 2 weeks, 2 months, or whatever.

i think our beloved rick has has a slight goof here.
s'ok, his stuff is great anyway...

n

No you're wrong.

They spent a few weeks looking for Girard and then a few days with Tarquin.

What exactly do you think they did for a year?

[M.A.D]

Wow. That trap is a bit oddly designed. You would have expected to either crush V dead, or land her in the pit. But this way, it seems overbuilt to me.

Or was the trapdoor simply activated by someone who heard V talk to himself? Someone who's name starts with G?

Also: answers to all the big F questions. No need to speculate about that from now on. :smallsmile:

Well, it was built by a man (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html) ;)

And the trap activated when V stepped on that little square at the center.


I'm still Not clear in how exactlY Familicide Works...so it Wohle habe Killed a Child of penelope ans Tarquin (ans that. Childs children), but Not Tarquin? Or is this One of Thies situations where the characters themaelves also don't have all the Information?

It would have killed Tarquin too, not that V would have cared about him, since he's evil.


I don't get it. If the families of the people who married a Draketooth are dead, then why is Tarquin even alive since he married that woman, who had previously married a Draketooth.

They are not connected by marriage, but a blood-related offspring.

[Nightmarenny]

Thats what i'm thinking. Either Girard or a non-blood relative heard V's speech and activated the trap. Although that brings to debate again if Girard could have possibly survived. :smallamused:

A the sound effect at her feet makes that very unlikely.

She tripped something.

[Secris]

Well, can we stop with the whole V is evil thing now? I mean, of course not, but can we say it less now? Sure, she's been mistreating the kobold prisoner, but if she was truly evil she wouldn't be experiencing crippling guilt of this magnitude over the accidental murder of people she's never met. At worst an evil character would feel a bit guilty but shrug it off because she didn't realize it would happen like that at the time. At best, they might be indifferent or maybe even happy at the loss of life.

To make a normally reserved and rational elf feel so guilty that she runs away in panic and falls down a flight of stairs and then curls into the fetal position gibbering like a madwoman, she would have to feel a TON of guilt. I just don't think any evil character would feel that way. Of course, people will still suggest it though.

EDIT: As for the strange design of the trap, I must assume it's a measure to make sure flying creatures also get pushed down the trap door along with whatever ground-based creature triggered the trap. This conveniently causes Blackwing to be pushed down the hole with V, instead of being left flying above it. Blackwing likely wouldn't weigh enough to trigger to the trap to follow V, and the rest of the OoTS would ignore him, so this suggests he may have some significant actions or speech in the coming panels. Or maybe the Giant just thought it looked cool, who knows?

[RMS Oceanic]

I had been wondering about that for a while too.

I can picture her dying with a "Totally worth it" smirk.

Since her "Voices in my head" speech to V in 635 was advocating pretty powerful spite, I wouldn't be surprised if she knew she was related to the target and just hated them that much.

[Tass]

I am surprised that no one thinks V is actually dead. That is what I thought. It would be a fitting end, just as realization has struck.

Also about familicide: If it is true it only goes two steps, then Girards grandparrent would have to have been the ABD herself, and not just a black dragon, for it to kill the parrents of the Draketooth children. This goes against ABD saying that the young dragon was her only child, but of course maybe she just doesn't count a half-human.

If it does go on then it would just have to be any dragon distantly related to her who started the Draketooth clan, but in that case it really should have wiped out all humans not just some.

[Nightmarenny]

I am surprised that no one thinks V is actually dead. That is what I thought. It would be a fitting end, just as realization has struck.

Also about familicide: If it is true it only goes two steps, then Girards grandparrent would have to have been the ABD herself, and not just a black dragon, for it to kill the parrents of the Draketooth children. This goes against ABD saying that the young dragon was her only child, but of course maybe she just doesn't count a half-human.

If it does go on then it would just have to be any dragon distantly related to her who started the Draketooth clan, but in that case it really should have wiped out all humans not just some.

If the trap were designed to kill why would there be a trapdoor?

[RMS Oceanic]

If the trap were designed to kill why would there be a trapdoor?

A trap door that leads to a room lined with spikes and acidic lava? :smalltongue:

[Ran Cossack]

I sure as hell wouldn't. There'd be a lot of celestial laughter from me (if I was a Deva) before condemning V to hell though. :smallbiggrin:
No, there wouldn't. If you'd laugh at someone who accepted their guilt, you wouldn't be a celestial.

Sucks to be V, really. :( One wrong act may not have a way out of it, but that doesn't change what the right thing to do is. If V got his/her eternity started early, that might even be the best possible thing for him/her.

I wonder what that really does mean in a D&D-type universe. You'd think not just casting Sphere of Ultimate Destruction, target self, would be worth something, but I can't imagine what a fair tradeoff would be.

[B. Dandelion]

IT IS NOT POSSIBLE FOR FAMILICIDE TO HAVE KILLED TARQUIN.

There's no reason for Vaarsuvius to bring up a hypothetical child between Tarquin and Penelope, specifically assert that child would be killed, and just skip over how Tarquin and his kids would have been killed as a result too.

Familicide wiped out the Draketooth clan -- they were relatives of the black dragon.

Then the spell killed anyone who'd had a kid with a Draketooth. WITH A DRAKETOOTH. DIRECTLY with a Draketooth. Penelope WASN'T a Draketooth. She was the MOTHER (i.e., direct relative) of someone else who was a Draketooth.

Having a kid with Orrin signs Penelope's death warrant, and SINCE that child is related to everyone Penelope herself is related to, it signs the death warrant of her entire family.

Tarquin having a kid with Penelope does NOT sign a death warrant because he isn't related by blood to ANYONE with Draketooth blood.

[Orzel]

V learned the same thing my group learned. Don't split up and run in a dungeon or large building.

I think the spell kills

The ABD
All of the ABD's descendants
All of the ABD's descendants' parents (as they share half of the ABD's descendants' blood)
All of the ABD's descendants' full siblings (All of the ABD's descendants)
All of the ABD's descendants' full siblings' descendants
All of the ABD's descendants' relatives on the ABD's descendants' side (redundant)

It wouldn't hit half and step family of the non-Familicide parent side.

[Thanatosia]

Is it wrong that my first reaction to this strip was "HOLY **** - When Tarquin said his wife died of mysterious Circumstances HE WAS JUST TELLING THE LITERAL TRUTH"

(A pink lightning bolt striking someone dead from a clear sky for no reason sure is a pretty mysterious circumstance!)

[Mooglefrooglian]

No, that's not how it works, because Vaarsuvius said that the spell had also killed all indirect relatives (siblings and cousins) of those who were only related to one of the relatives of the dragon. So Tarquin and his children (if he had a child with Penelope) would also have been killed if the spell extended to more than two steps, but that contradicts the spell description.

"The Familicide spell I cast killed everyone of the black dragon's blood--and then killed everyone who shared blood with any of the dragon's blood." -http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0843.html

"Every living creature that directly shares your bloodline is dead. Every living creature that is directly related to any of those creatures is dead." -http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0640.html

Kindly provide me a link to a comic where she says it killed indirectly related people. Until then, all the evidence points to the fact that Elan would have been fine. V probably would have mentioned it if it were the case, as well. The fact that the continent they are on is not entirely depopulated is also proof of my claim.

Edit: Penelope apparently wasn't directly related! My bad on that one. Forgot. Tarquin would have been perfectly fine, as would her child. Penelope died because she was directly related to a member of the dragon's blood (Orrin).

[Nightmarenny]

IT IS NOT POSSIBLE FOR FAMILICIDE TO HAVE KILLED TARQUIN.

There's no reason for Vaarsuvius to bring up a hypothetical child between Tarquin and Penelope, specifically assert that child would be killed, and just skip over how Tarquin and his kids would have been killed as a result too.

Familicide wiped out the Draketooth clan -- they were relatives of the black dragon.

Then the spell killed anyone who'd had a kid with a Draketooth. WITH A DRAKETOOTH. DIRECTLY with a Draketooth. Penelope WASN'T a Draketooth. She was the MOTHER (i.e., direct relative) of someone else who was a Draketooth.

Having a kid with Orrin signs Penelope's death warrant, and SINCE that child is related to everyone Penelope herself is related to, it signs the death warrant of her entire family.

Tarquin having a kid with Penelope does NOT sign a death warrant because he isn't related by blood to ANYONE with Draketooth blood.

HOLDING SHIFT DOESN'T GIVE YOUR INTERPRETATION MORE WEIGHT.

[Kish]

No, there wouldn't. If you'd laugh at someone who accepted their guilt, you wouldn't be a celestial.
Vaarsuvius has not accepted his/her guilt. S/he has accepted guilt for not thinking oh hey, this will hit humans. Not that it would have been horrifically wrong even if it had been limited to black dragons.

Whether the hypothetical Skeppio-celestial would be laughing, rather than grim, as she condemned Vaarsuvius to Hades is another question.

[GMantis]

Also about familicide: If it is true it only goes two steps, then Girards grandparrent would have to have been the ABD herself, and not just a black dragon, for it to kill the parrents of the Draketooth children. This goes against ABD saying that the young dragon was her only child, but of course maybe she just doesn't count a half-human.

Directly related seems to mean "any blood relations", so it could have been a brother or cousin of the ABD.

[Tass]

A trap door that leads to a room lined with spikes and acidic lava? :smalltongue:

Something along those lines, yes.

Also from re-reading the comic it is clear that familicide is supposed to be fully recursive. Blackwing said "one of the dragons you killed" not "the dragon", and Penelopes hypothetical child with Tarquin would be a step further.

Then the question just remains why it stopped at all. It is extremely unlikely that a group that big would have no blood relatives not all ready in the group. It strains my suspension of disbelief. It really should have killed all humans.

[M.A.D]

It wouldn't hit half and step family of the non-Familicide parent side.

I don't think that spell likes to be limited to what kind of people it would or wouldn't kill ;))

[Tundar]

WHAM and there you have it. The order is split again.
Poor V, power corrupts.

On a side note, the sound effect triggered something
WHAM (bam, I am your man) - damn that's an oldie :)

[Sweet_Goddess]

I think if the spell could have killed Tarquin, Vaarsuvius would have mentioned it. Why bring up the hypothetical child he could have had with Penelope, state it would kill the child, but just omit mention of Tarquin and his kids? It's totally not worth mentioning V came within spitting distance of murdering Elan?

Clause 1 kills Draketooths, Clause 2 kills non-Draketooths related by blood to a Draketooth.

Tarquin is neither, even with a child by Penelope. The child wouldn't have "blood of the dragon". Penelope and the kid would die for having Draketooth kin, but since Tarquin's child had no dragon blood his/herself, Tarquin could have no Draketooth relatives and was safe.

What is made clear is that the spell is broad in determining who's close enough to be considered a relative, not that it makes more than the specified two jumps to murder relatives of the relatives of the relatives relatives.


I like how Haerta designed a spell to kill everyone who was a blood relative of her enemy, but did absolutely nothing about non-blood relations, which are often far more likely to seek revenge than distant cousins. Apparently Evil Is Dumb. (Granted she may have intended it as a deterrence weapon or something rather than the use to which V put it, but her soul didn't seem surprised by this application.)

(Edited per the Giant.)

Actually, the spell covers most everyone, clause 2 covers the non-blood relationships... but it is tricky, but thanks to Penelope, Tarquin, Orrin, Elan and Nale, Penelope and Orrin's child (called Lane for purposes of needing a name, and to complete the Nale/Elan/Alen anagram motif), 'Alen' (Tarquin and Penelope's theoretical but non-existent offspring/Nale and Elan's half-brother), Haley, Nela (Haley and Elan's theoretical daughter), Ian/'Red', Ivy, Geoff we can use them to show how the spell works...

Real Situation
Orrin - Draketooth/Dragon Bloodline
Lane - Draketooth/Dragon Bloodline
Penelope - Directly related to someone with a connected bloodline
Alen - Does not exist
Tarquin - Not related to someone with a bloodline
Nale - Not related to someone with a bloodline
Elan - Not related to someone with a bloodline
Nela - Does not exist
Haley - Not related to someone with a bloodline
Ian/'Red' - Not related to someone with a bloodline
Ivy - Not related to someone with a bloodline
Geoff - Not related to someone with a bloodline

Theoretical Situation
Orrin - Draketooth/Dragon Bloodline
Lane - Draketooth/Dragon Bloodline
Penelope - Directly related to someone with a connected bloodline
Alen - Shares a Bloodline with Lane (through their mother)
Tarquin - Directly related to someone with a connected bloodline
Nale - Shares a Bloodline with Alen (through their Father)
Elan - Shares a Bloodline with Alen (through their Father)
Nela - Shares a Bloodline with Alen (through her Father)
Haley - Directly related to someone with a bloodline
Ian/'Red' - Shares a Bloodline Nela (Through Haley)
Ivy - Shares a Bloodline with Ian/'Red'
Geoff - Not related to someone with a bloodline (Unless Cousin Sheila is Ivy and Geoff's child, at which point he is related to someone who shares a bloodline, but unless he has another child or his parents are alive, he is a stop in the chain)

[drazen]

Quote: "i can't discern the exact amount of time elapsed, but it's definately more then 2 weeks, 2 months, or whatever."

- In the comic where they go into the room of bodies, Haley finds a chart stating the last day the illusions were cast, which was the day Roy was resurrected.

- Durkon says the bodies were dead "at least a fortnight," which is 2 weeks.

- Penelope's funeral was approximately 8-10 days ago (2 days to Windy Canyon by magic carpet; funeral held "last week" per Tarquin). Assuming Penelope died of Familicide, it's only been about 2-3 weeks since V's soul splice episode.

As for Familicide itself, the dragon in the family tree could just as easily be the ABD's sibling/parent or whatever. Clause 1 of Familicide: ABD's bloodline, which includes parents and its ONLY child (per the ABD). Clause 2, anything "directly related" to anyone IN its bloodline. So Penelope's child with Orrin is "directly related," whereas Taqruin would have been indirectly related if he had a child with Penelope (Penelope was directly related to the ABD's bloodline, but Tarquin and her having a child would not have been) -- I think the speculation it could have hit Taqruin is just V realizing with horror how far the spell went and panicking about how bad it truly was, because of paralyzing regret.

[1811]

Wow. That is one profound comic. They who start out to fight evil end up bombing Hiroshima. It happens in every war.

[Divayth Fyr]

"Oh, crap! I killed a lot of humans too! It would be just fine if the spell had only hit dragons, but I should have known it wouldn't!" Gaaah. No, Vaarsuvius, I still hate you. Suffer.
Why would V care about them? It's a world where elves see killing goblins as a normal part of life, and black dragons fall into the same category (as they're usually evil creatures - and killing evil is fine). The OotS world has a different morality system built in by the gods themselves, it's kind of hard to expect the characters to grasp morality concepts from our world...

[RMS Oceanic]

Something along those lines, yes.

Also from re-reading the comic it is clear that familicide is supposed to be fully recursive. Blackwing said "one of the dragons you killed" not "the dragon", and Penelopes hypothetical child with Tarquin would be a step further.

Then the question just remains why it stopped at all. It is extremely unlikely that a group that big would have no blood relatives not all ready in the group. It strains my suspension of disbelief. It really should have killed all humans.

Assuming the spell only concerns itself with (un)living targets and doesn't somehow trace back to Humanity's common matrilineal ancestor, which doesn't actually exist in a world where humans were literally created by the Gods, I don't think every human is linked by the ties of blood. Those chains would stop eventually. I'm pretty sure I couldn't find a blood link (A is related to B is related to C...is related to Z) between myself in Ireland and someone in Japan.

[Yuki Akuma]

The spell only ends if Yukyuk makes a save, V dismisses or dispels the spell or V dies.

Spells don't end when the caster dies.

Of course, in this case, V wouldn't be able to give any more mental commands, but if V gave a long-term command (such as 'follow Belkar') then Yukyuk would continue to do it until the spell duration ran out, which will probably be around two weeks from now.


Once you have given a dominated creature a command, it continues to attempt to carry out that command to the exclusion of all other activities except those necessary for day-to-day survival (such as sleeping, eating, and so forth).

You also can't dismiss Dominate Person, you need to dispel it (which succeeds automatically but costs you a spell slot), although I think Rich plays fast-and-loose with dismissal rules.

[Skeppio]

Whether the hypothetical Skeppio-celestial would be laughing, rather than grim, as she condemned Vaarsuvius to Hades is another question.

It's a "You commited genocide without thinking of the consequences, and now it's all 'Oh, I did do wrong after all, how could I have been so blind?' because NOW there's consequences? Maybe you can find a way to bring back the thousands of innocents you thoughtlessly murdered while you're in Gehenna, dumbass." feeling at that point, so the laughing's probably subsided. :smallwink:

And no, banishing an evil being to the hells he/she willingly condemned him/herself to does not a fallen celestial make. :smallannoyed:

[B. Dandelion]

Theoretical Situation
Orrin - Draketooth/Dragon Bloodline
Lane - Draketooth/Dragon Bloodline
Penelope - Directly related to someone with a connected bloodline
Alen - Shares a Bloodline with Lane (through their mother)
Tarquin - Directly related to someone with a connected bloodline
Nale - Shares a Bloodline with Alen (through their Father)
Elan - Shares a Bloodline with Alen (through their Father)
Nela - Shares a Bloodline with Alen (through her Father)
Haley - Directly related to someone with a bloodline
Ian/'Red' - Shares a Bloodline Nela (Through Haley)
Ivy - Shares a Bloodline with Ian/'Red'
Geoff - Not related to someone with a bloodline (Unless Cousin Sheila is Ivy and Geoff's child, at which point he is related to someone who shares a bloodline, but unless he has another child or his parents are alive, he is a stop in the chain)

This one. Why? Penelope and Tarquin are stated to be equivalent in terms of degree in relation -- but Penelope is connected to Lane, a Draketooth, and Alen is also connected to Lane. They are equivalent, they're both only one step removed. But Tarquin isn't connected to in one step. Tarquin is connected to Alen who is connected to Lane. That's two steps.

[Mixt]

That's right, you sick bastard, suffer, burn!

Eternal damnation is not enough for you, you require something that makes the Nine Hells look like a paradise vacation resort in comparison.
Excruciating agony, infinite pain, defilement and horror so vast even fiends would be reduced to gibbering wrecks by it, this is what you deserve.

Suffer V, SUFFER!

[Yuki Akuma]

And no, banishing an evil being to the hells he/she willingly condemned him/herself to does not a fallen celestial make. :smallannoyed:

Finding pleasure in the suffering of others, however...

Committing an evil act against an evil creature is still an evil act. .-.

[Edhelras]

Actually, I DO have a problem with the way "bloodline" is interpreted in this strip. Sure, all those who share some part of the genes spread from the black dragon V killed will be killed by the familicide spell. Which means, all her offspring, and their offspring, and so on.
But those who are legal family members by way of co-parenting one of these offspring - they do not share the bloodline. They belong to the same legal family, but not the same genetic family. That's the whole point of "blood"-line, as far as I can see.
If a person "whose only sin was falling in love with a scarlet-tressed stranger" would also be a victim of the familicide - that would mean that the killing effect of the familicide spell raced downwards in the pedigree, following the black dragon's genes, but when it reached one offspring, the killing effect "jumped" over to the other family's bloodline, including that in the familicide as well.

One other difficult question would be if the bloodline extended backwards as well - if the familicide affected even the black dragon's forfathers and -mothers. That would have tremendous implications indeed - in particular if the killing effect was allowed to move back and forth and affect all who could be linked together as "family" in the legal term.

Really, I have to say that it seems the Giant has made a serious error here, by extending the effect of the familicide spell too far. Or, if the spell description really allows for such a wide effect - there is something wrong with the spell itself.

[Yuki Akuma]

If you are the biological parent of a child, you share their bloodline, but not your mate's bloodline.

Familicide doesn't care. The kid is a target, you share the kid's bloodline, you're a target.

[namarx]

What makes you think that two comic-months have passed?

seriously?
let's recap from issue 630 or something.
boat ride.
desert track.
search in the desert.
a second search in the desert
desert track back to civilization
city time (guild episode)
time spent with tarquin
travel time with tarquin (dino-express)
travel time (flight)
time spent getting V back
travel to hideout.

it's a lot of traveling + time spent elsewhere -
definately more then 2 weeks.

can't quantify it - but it feels alot

[Killer Angel]

Finding pleasure in the suffering of others, however...


I hope a paladin can feel some satisfaction, while bashing evil creatures.

[Skeppio]

Finding pleasure in the suffering of others, however...

Committing an evil act against an evil creature is still an evil act. .-.

Not when it's a punishment they clearly deserve. That's like saying it's an evil act to subdue the goblin rogue who just stabbed a town guard to death in plain sight. :smallmad:

One - V willingly sold his/her soul to fiends for the sake of his/her pride. That's it.
Two - FAMILICIDE. That is all.
Three - Assuming I'm a deva like the one Roy met, it's kinda my job to send V to the afterlife that best suits their alignment and actions in life. Not my fault this one happens to be one of the Lower Planes. :smallconfused:

[Yuki Akuma]

I hope a paladin can feel some satisfaction, while bashing evil creatures.

The satisfaction of a good (or Good) job done isn't the same as feeling warm and tingly when someone gets tortured for eternity.

[St Fan]

Quote: "i can't discern the exact amount of time elapsed, but it's definately more then 2 weeks, 2 months, or whatever."

- In the comic where they go into the room of bodies, Haley finds a chart stating the last day the illusions were cast, which was the day Roy was resurrected.

- Durkon says the bodies were dead "at least a fortnight," which is 2 weeks.

- Penelope's funeral was approximately 8-10 days ago (2 days to Windy Canyon by magic carpet; funeral held "last week" per Tarquin). Assuming Penelope died of Familicide, it's only been about 2-3 weeks since V's soul splice episode.


Ellindsey has posted a full timeline in the previous strip's thread, which I didn't find any glaring fault with. I'd say it's probably the closest estimation possible, so I'm reposting it here for your enlightment:


Now that we have confirmation that Roy was resurrected on a Thursday, I have revised my timeline.

Familicide Timeline:

We know from the chart and speech in strip 842 that Roy was resurrected on a Thursday.

While Roy is being ressurected, V casts Familicide in strip 639. In the Windy Canyon, the entire Draketooth clan is wiped out during lunch. Penelope also dies mysteriously in the Empire of Blood.

On that same day, V transports the entire Azure City refugee fleet to an island located "a few dozen kilometers from the Western Continent" in strip 643. V then goes on to attack Xykon, rescue O'chul, etc.

The next morning (Friday), the Order of the Strip leaves for Sandsedge on "Hinjo's fastest ship". This is one day after Familicide.

In strip 678, the Order is in Sandsedge. Blackwing states "You were only back home two days ago", placing this at Saturday. It would appear that the trip from the island where the refugee fleet was teleported to Sandsedge only took about a day.

Strip 682 is still Saturday evening (no reason to assume more than a day has passed since 678). Roy states “We'll travel north … for the first few few days” to the oasis. From this we assume he means all of Sunday and Monday will be spent traveling.

At strip 687, the Order is at the oasis, on Monday evening. The slaver attack (strips 683-686) probably took place on Monday, four days after Familicide, since when the Order is rewarded at the oasis Belkar is still sunburned, and it seems unlikely that the traders would wait a day before rewarding them for the rescue.

Strip 688 begins Tuesday, five days after Familicide, and the Order has split off from the caravan. Due to the sandworm ride, it only takes "a few hours" (per strip 690) to get to the false gate location.

In strip 692, a search montage takes place. It is not clear if this is literal, or a comedic musical montage via Summon Exposition. The Giant states that there was “a week spent searching the desert”, but it is not clear if this included the travel time to and from the false location. If we assume a full five days is spent here, the day of the week does not match up in later strips. We assume instead that one day is spent, and strip 692 is showing what happened Tuesday evening and night.

Girard's triggered illusion takes place on Wednesday, 6 days after Familicide. The order then takes the rest of that evening searching (strip 697). In the evening of that day (strip 698), someone scries on the location. The color of the scrying spell is green, which matches the color of magic cast by Zz'drti.

In strip 698, it is stated that the "nearest edge of the desert is only four days". The Order begins this trip on the Wednesday evening. We assume they spend all day Thursday, Friday, Saturday, and Sunday traveling.

In strip 702, Redcloak states that it has "Been a hard week” which included “terrorist attack by elven insurgents". This implies less than a week has taken place since Familicide was spent. Note that we do not know exactly when this scene is taking place relative to the scenes in the desert.

In strip 710, the Order is in a city on the edge of the desert. If we assume the 4 day travel estimate was correct, and that it is now the next morning, then it is Monday morning, 11 days after Familicide was cast.

In strip 727, Tarquin states that "Penelope recently passed away” and that they had a “funeral for her last week". Penelope died Thursday, eleven days previous. “Last week” implies the funeral was last Monday at the earliest, which would be four days after Penelope died.

Tarquin then promises "Three days and nights of merriment". We assume that Monday is the first night of this.

In strip 731, the bounty hunter says that they brought three others to the palace that morning, confirming it is still the same day. In strip 735, it is stated to be only two hours since the three fugitives were dropped off.

In 739, it is stated that the feast will be tonight (Monday), and the parade will be tomorrow at dusk (Tuesday).

In 741, V finished trancing and casts Sending. This is still Monday, eleven days after Familicide. A poster shows that there will be a special mid-week event (presumably Wednesday)

Strip 748 begins the next day (Tuesday, ten days after Familicide). It is stated that the games will be 'tomorrow', which is Wednesday.

Strip 750: The Order spends a full day in the Empire of Blood. This is Tuesday.

Strip 754 begins the parade sequence, on Tuesday night. This is the second evening of Taquin's three days and nights.

Strip 775 begins Wednesday, thirteen days after Familicide. This is the day of the promised bloody gladiatorial games. On this day the Linear Guild attacks.

In strip 801, Nale says "Last week you're hundreds of miles away in the middle of the desert". This is further evidence that it was Zz'drti that scried on the Order after the explosion at the false location, which was the previous week's Wednesday.

In strip 815, Elan says "we still owe you one more night", confirming that two nights have been spent in the Empire of Blood so far.

In strip 816, Tarquin says that Penelope got a tip about the location of Orrin "A few weeks ago”, implying that she was alive 21 days at the latest, then "unexpectedly passed".

The magic carpet that he gives them in strip 817 will "Get you to Windy Canyon in two days", which would be on Friday.

In strip 821, we learn that Penelope was killed the day after getting the Windy Canyon tip. That would mean she got the tip on Wednesday, two weeks previous.

In strip 833, Xykon says "Where do you think I've been these past few weeks", which would imply that this takes place at least 14 days after the Familicide spell, which is consistent with the timeline.

In strip 834, the Order has arrived at the Windy Canyon. It is Friday, fifteen days after Familicide was cast.

In Strip 835, we have confirmation that it has been two days since the Linear Guild attacked, which makes this fifteen days after the Familicide spell. We also learn that it will take a day for Durkon and company to reach the Windy Canyon.

In Strip 836, the Order is reunited. If the travel estimate in 835 is correct, it is Saturday, sixteen days after Familicide. (It might also be later the same day – it's hard to tell – but it does seem likely that they enter the Canyon at least a day after strip 834)

On examining the bodies in strip 842, Durkon states that the Draketooth clan have been dead at least 2 weeks. This is consistent with Familicide being 16 days previous.

[SmaugTheYounger]

Well, can we stop with the whole V is evil thing now? I mean, of course not, but can we say it less now? Sure, she's been mistreating the kobold prisoner, but if she was truly evil she wouldn't be experiencing crippling guilt of this magnitude over the accidental murder of people she's never met.
(...snip)

Agreed. Also, the spells mechanics as argued by V (and thus the giant, one can assume) work good enough for me.

But.

V may realize the magnitude of her/his crimes, but (s)he still doesn't get the danger (s)he presents to her/his companions and the world. V still thinks the fiends will take control of hir soul after hir death, while they are interested in V alive (656 , panel 11 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0656.html)). They could realize this time as the perfect opportunity to take control of V, strike deal with Xykon, and wrack havoc on heaven and earth.

...I think. Oh, and wouldn't V's crisis with accompanying lack of concentration release the kobold of his spell?

[Skeppio]

The satisfaction of a good (or Good) job done isn't the same as feeling warm and tingly when someone gets tortured for eternity.

Apparently serving justice and feeling good that I could deliver said justice is an evil act now. :smallconfused:

[Hironomus]

All this hate towards V is making me sad. V committed a heinous act, truly. However I personally believe that no crime puts you beyond redemption and I sincerely wish V (yes the fictional Character) the best. Definitely has a long way to go though.

I loved this comic. I have loved every comic since they entered the pyramid.

I just wish people could understand how familiacide works! All the obvious misinterpretation is frustrating! :smallfurious:

[Kobold-Bard]

Wow. Bad day for Vaarsuvius.

[Kobold-Bard]

Wow. Bad day for Vaarsuvius.

[Iferus]

Wow, that IS an EPIC spell !

So if Penelope had a child with Tarquin, the child would have been killed, and as Tarquin share blood with the child, he would have been killed, and Elan too because he is Tarquin's Son ...

So, V was close to kill Elan O_o !

EDIT: sorry mispelled Tarquin


Nope. The Draketooth family shares blood with the ABD (I guess the black dragon grandfather of Girard was the ABD's son). Anyone who shares blood with any draketooth is dead too: the spouses, their parents and offspring. But not the new partner of a draketooth spouse and the stepchildren they bring along.

[GMantis]

Kindly provide me a link to a comic where she says it killed indirectly related people. Until then, all the evidence points to the fact that Elan would have been fine. V probably would have mentioned it if it were the case, as well. The fact that the continent they are on is not entirely depopulated is also proof of my claim.

Vaarsuvius said in the current comic that the spell had also killed all siblings and cousins of those who were only related to someone with the black dragon bloodline. The reason the continent is not depopulated is that the spell only works in two steps, as others have said.

[OracleofWuffing]

Anticlimactic Nonsense Theater Presents... The Redemption of V! :smalltongue:

:durkon: Och, you know Atonement provides instantaneous redemption fer only 500 XP, right?
:vaarsuvius: *Sigh* *Facepalm* Hit me up.

[Yuki Akuma]

Apparently serving justice and feeling good that I could deliver said justice is an evil act now. :smallconfused:

You're really not getting it (probably a failure on my part), but this isn't really the thread for alignment debates.


Anticlimactic Nonsense Theater Presents... The Redemption of V! :smalltongue:

:durkon: Och, you know Atonement provides instantaneous redemption fer only 500 XP, right?
:vaarsuvius: *Sigh* *Facepalm* Hit me up.

That technically requires a quest of redemption before it'll work. And technically, V would need a cleric of a True Neutral deity to cast it, unless she feels like converting to whatever alignment Thor is meant to be.

[Spacewolf]

Well it seems likley the next strip will be V finding out that the Feinds can control her without her being dead.

But would all the people calling V evil calm down her actions may of been evil, hell her intentions at the time were probably evil but at this point she obviously is feeling alot of remorse over it and her actions otherwise have been mostly neutral. If you call the Mr scruffy thing evil then may i draw your attention to the fact the kobolds head is still attached to his body rather than being seperate as was Belkars original intention.

[Killer Angel]

The satisfaction of a good (or Good) job done isn't the same as feeling warm and tingly when someone gets tortured for eternity.

If you like it more, shouldn't an angel feel warm, knowing that an evil being was condemned to carceri and it's no more around the universe commicting evil acts?
The good guy won't indulge on these kind of satisfactions, but a momentary smile would fit, IMO.


You're really not getting it (probably a failure on my part), but this isn't really the thread for alignment debates.

Agreed on both. (well, probably it's me that don't get your concept).
Let's get back on topic:

I'm not satisfied by Haley's reading of V. acting.
The need of fresh air usually doesn't manifest with running away screaming and with spirited eyes...

[asphias]

for people still wondering how it works, its very clear now:

anyone who shares the bloodline with the original target is dead. this is his parents, sibbelings, children, grandchildren, etc. so this includes the whole draketooth family. the dragon V cast familicide on must've been their great-great-grand-aunt.

then, the target kills anyone who shares a bloodline with one of the people who where killed in the first strike. this means, if someone made a baby with a draketooth, that baby is killed in the first strike(having a greatgreatdragonaunt), and the mother and her family is directly related by bloodline to that baby.

but after that, it stops.

so yeah, the whole draketooth family is dead, and anyone who can say they share a bloodline with them, this the mothers and fathers of draketooths.

so penelope didnt die because she had a relation with orrin, but because she was the mother of a draketooth.

[NinjaStylerobot]

V is arrogant and V is sometimes cruel. But he isn't evil. He isn't beyond redemption.

Personally I think I could judge him on the acts he committed:

Willfully killing a ton of black dragons.

Thats a horribly evil act, but its not beyond redemption.

[Furius]

Actually, I DO have a problem with the way "bloodline" is interpreted in this strip....
Really, I have to say that it seems the Giant has made a serious error here, by extending the effect of the familicide spell too far. Or, if the spell description really allows for such a wide effect - there is something wrong with the spell itself.

Agreed. If they are "dead - down to the very last cousin," then why isn't every single person in the world dead? Everyone is a distant cousin of everyone else, after all- and if half-siblings and subsequent partners are included then it's probably only a few steps removed from anyone to anyone else (given the mobility of people in a magically powered society and the apparent promiscuity of the Draketeeth)

[skaddix]

All this hate towards V is making me sad. V committed a heinous act, truly. However I personally believe that no crime puts you beyond redemption and I sincerely wish V (yes the fictional Character) the best. Definitely has a long way to go though.

I loved this comic. I have loved every comic since they entered the pyramid.

I just wish people could understand how familiacide works! All the obvious misinterpretation is frustrating! :smallfurious:

Normally, this would be beyond redemption but since V is True Neutral. Saving the Entire World by defeating Team Evil should balance the scales enough for Her/him to average out at true neutral.

The Trap is interesting though.

Still Bloadsoak is truly one for the greatest of all time in terms of dark magic. A spell that can commit genocide is not curtailed by distance. Its one thing to rain of fire a major city or a make a plague quite another thing to create a spell that can strike people did anywhere on earth.

[Castamir]

I like how Haerta designed a spell to kill everyone who was a blood relative of her enemy, but did absolutely nothing about non-blood relations, which are often far more likely to seek revenge than distant cousins. Apparently Evil Is Dumb.
Not dumb, merely not omnipotent.


It looks like Familicide is truly exhaustive, looking at the panel where a whole family was killed. It's like a recursive program: Kill everyone biologically related to the target, then replicate the spell with those victims as new targets. If Penelope and Tarquin had children, those children would be dead, then Tarquin, then Elan and Nale, and then their Mother and her family. It is truly Epic.
It can't be fully recursive, otherwise nearly every single human would die. Unlike RL, the world has been created. so not every single organism dies (via the first living cell ~4 billion years ago) and there may be some isolated bloodlines, but you cannot underestimate 1184 years of breeding. That's forty generations, every single not totally isolated community shares common blood.

I see two possible explanations:

Familycide doesn't recurse more than once
dead people are not considered a part of the bloodline


The spell's description suggests only living creatures are targetted, so it's possible dead relatives don't propagate the spell either. That would be a way to limit the spell and keep it from killing everyone on the planet.

This explanation reeks too much of word lawyering to me, though, so I'd really prefer looking into single recursion. The family on the third panel is quite hard to explain this way, though. It's possible the two middle-aged people there are siblings rather than a couple, but this again reeks of wriggling an explanation.

[Hironomus]

Well it seems likley the next strip will be V finding out that the Feinds can control her without her being dead.

But would all the people calling V evil calm down her actions may of been evil, hell her intentions at the time were probably evil but at this point she obviously is feeling alot of remorse over it and her actions otherwise have been mostly neutral. If you call the Mr scruffy thing evil then may i draw your attention to the fact the kobolds head is still attached to his body rather than being seperate as was Belkars original intention.

V already seems well aware that the fiends can control her while alive. That is evidenced in the statement "The few paltry moments the ... fiends hold my soul will be but a preview of the eternity..."
This seems to imply that V acknowledges that S/he is destined for hell but the service to the fiends will take place before that.

[Sweet_Goddess]

This one. Why? Penelope and Tarquin are stated to be equivalent in terms of degree in relation -- but Penelope is connected to Lane, a Draketooth, and Alen is also connected to Lane. They are equivalent, they're both only one step removed. But Tarquin isn't connected to in one step. Tarquin is connected to Alen who is connected to Lane. That's two steps.

Meh... maybe... we thankfully don't need to worry about that... what it does prove though is that the Starshine family (despite the hair color) is not a relation of the Draketooth line. Though, speaking of Starshines... Ivy, Geoff, and Ian haven't been seen for a bit... (well technically Ivy's never been seen, but still)

[2xMachina]

I always thought the fiends got V while she's alive. If she died now, the fiends just got a bad deal. Where she ends up in afterlife in not included in the bargain, though it might have some weight.

[Bad Hair Day]

Would the murdering of innocents count as negative xp?

You get XP for any kill.

[Spacewolf]

Not dumb, merely not omnipotent.


It can't be fully recursive, otherwise nearly every single human would die. Unlike RL, the world has been created. so not every single organism dies (via the first living cell ~4 billion years ago) and there may be some isolated bloodlines, but you cannot underestimate 1184 years of breeding. That's forty generations, every single not totally isolated community shares common blood.

I see two possible explanations:

Familycide doesn't recurse more than once
dead people are not considered a part of the bloodline


The spell's description suggests only living creatures are targetted, so it's possible dead relatives don't propagate the spell either. That would be a way to limit the spell and keep it from killing everyone on the planet.

This explanation reeks too much of word lawyering to me, though, so I'd really prefer looking into single recursion. The family on the third panel is quite hard to explain this way, though. It's possible the two middle-aged people there are siblings rather than a couple, but this again reeks of wriggling an explanation.

If it goes to Cousins then it could just be Grandfather, Father, Husband who shares child wife, Brother of wife and 3 children of the wife

[Quild]

See? See? I told it was a really nasty spell! But shouldn't we have heard about mass deaths on this continent earlier? Are there others families descending from dragons?

To me, the purpose of the spell is recursive and could be written as "Kill anyone blood-related to anyone killed by the spell". V cast it so no one will come with a vengeance after killing ABD (doesn't protect against friends or husbands&wifes still).

I really hope Girard and his father were still alive, and that the spell is stopped if there is no alive link.

[OracleofWuffing]

That technically requires a quest of redemption before it'll work.
Actually, the quest is optional. I mean, sure, Durkon would totally be the kind of cleric that would issue the quest, but that's why it's called "Anticlimactic Nonsense Theater." :smalltongue:


And technically, V would need a cleric of a True Neutral deity to cast it, unless she feels like converting to whatever alignment Thor is meant to be.
With the amount of guilt V's showing right now, as well as the... :smallcool: Lack of Foresight as of recent, I don't think an alignment change would be much of a hindrance.

[DigoDragon]

Cool, I didn't know V had the same Trapfinding ability the kobold did! :smallbiggrin:

[Hironomus]

Normally, this would be beyond redemption but since V is True Neutral. Saving the Entire World by defeating Team Evil should balance the scales enough for Her/him to average out at true neutral.


I basically agree. V committed an incredibly evil act. There is no defending that. But clearly V's outlook now is not evil. It's neutral and probably even leaning towards good (As the angel on Elan's shoulder once said "guilt is the main weapon in good's Arsenal"). I don't know how that would translate in rules terms exactly but if you were alittle flexible you could view it as neutral or good but with a massive taint large enough to land you in the lower planes (for now at least).

[skaddix]

I always thought the fiends got V while she's alive. If she died now, the fiends just got a bad deal. Where she ends up in afterlife in not included in the bargain, though it might have some weight.

If the order does not do the job I am sure the IFCC can find some cleric to do the job. They can easily get their agents to provide the OOTS with needed material components.

[DigoDragon]

Cool, I didn't know V had the same Trapfinding ability the kobold did! :smallbiggrin:

[Roland Itiative]

So, had Penelope and Tarquin had child, Elan and Nale would be killed by Familicide too (as Tarquin and his line would be eradicated)? I wonder how V would have reacted to that.

Anyway, this was a truly amazing comic. I loved seeing V didn't just swallow his guilt to hide his deed, but felt the need to hide himself so he could have a breakdown. And what breakdown it was. The trap felt like putting salt on the fresh wound though, I hope he's all right...

I also didn't expect Blackwing to play the denial of blame card, sound like he's really starting to care for his master on a personal level, instead of simply acting as a "conscience" for V.

[skaddix]

I always thought the fiends got V while she's alive. If she died now, the fiends just got a bad deal. Where she ends up in afterlife in not included in the bargain, though it might have some weight.

If the order does not do the job I am sure the IFCC can find some cleric to do the job. They can easily get their agents to provide the OOTS with needed material components.

[Jay R]

Ignoring punishment and retribution on the grand scale, and just focusing on the immediate small scale, I kind of like the fact that V is hit by a trap because he/she is just walking along rather than checking for traps.

[skaddix]

I always thought the fiends got V while she's alive. If she died now, the fiends just got a bad deal. Where she ends up in afterlife in not included in the bargain, though it might have some weight.

If the order does not do the job I am sure the IFCC can find some cleric to do the job. They can easily get their agents to provide the OOTS with needed material components.

[Hironomus]

Whoa... Can't actually see it but did I just QUADRUPLE POST?? I have a feeling I did. Deepest apologies to all...

[Roland Itiative]

So, had Penelope and Tarquin had child, Elan and Nale would be killed by Familicide too (as Tarquin and his line would be eradicated)? I wonder how V would have reacted to that.

Anyway, this was a truly amazing comic. I loved seeing V didn't just swallow his guilt to hide his deed, but felt the need to hide himself so he could have a breakdown. And what breakdown it was. The trap felt like putting salt on the fresh wound though, I hope he's all right...

I also didn't expect Blackwing to play the denial of blame card, sound like he's really starting to care for his master on a personal level, instead of simply acting as a "conscience" for V.

[B. Dandelion]

So, had Penelope and Tarquin had child, Elan and Nale would be killed by Familicide too (as Tarquin and his line would be eradicated)? I wonder how V would have reacted to that.

No, that wouldn't have happened. Having a child with a Draketooth is fatal, not having a child with non-Draketooth, even if they'd had their own child with a Draketooth. The spell killed the Draketooths and anyone who shared blood with them, but a child of Penelope and Tarquin would have no Draketooth blood so Tarquin, Nale and Elan wouldn't have been at risk.

[Wou]

So, V gets separated from the party? Well, that's new :smallconfused:

[Wardog]

On a completely unrelated note, "scourged" doesn't mean what V thinks it means.

To scourge something means to whip it, or, metaphorically, to punish or aflict it.

It doesn't mean to scour (rub clean).

(Warcraft made the same mistake).

[Sweet_Goddess]

Whoa... Can't actually see it but did I just QUADRUPLE POST?? I have a feeling I did. Deepest apologies to all...

Quintuple I think, but feel free to edit and delete the extras... you got the error message too? I ended up doing a separated double post, but deleted the second on my own.

[hamishspence]

I basically agree. V committed an incredibly evil act. There is no defending that. But clearly V's outlook now is not evil. It's neutral and probably even leaning towards good (As the angel on Elan's shoulder once said "guilt is the main weapon in good's Arsenal"). I don't know how that would translate in rules terms exactly but if you were alittle flexible you could view it as neutral or good but with a massive taint large enough to land you in the lower planes (for now at least).

You don't have to have an "evil outlook" to have an evil alignment- all you need, is to have repeatedly committed evil acts and not (yet) repented of them.

It's quite plausible to have an Evil character who does not regret committing evil acts against "the not innocent" but who feels incredibly guilty about having committed evil acts against "the innocent".

That said- at least one splatbook (Fiendish Codex 2) has a corruption system- and its level of corruption, rather than Evil Alignment- that determines if a Lawful character (or, arguably, a character who has committed many Lawful acts) goes to Baator or not (in the absence of repentance).

So- you could have a True Neutral V (as per The Giant's post on V's alignment- see Index of the Giant's Comments thread) with a corruption in the thousands (hundreds of acts of Murder, each granting a corruption of 5).

[Yuki Akuma]

You get XP for any kill.

Nope.

You get XP for defeating a challenge. If a creature is level 1 and you're level 16 and can kill it with a flick of your finger, you don't get XP for it.

Especially not when you're supercharged on Raw Arcane Power. V didn't get any XP for the dragon, either - the fiends told him specifically that his CR would be way too high.

[k_bukie]

The obvious lesson to be learned here: Never fall for a red head.

[Chane]

I'm completely fine with Vaarsuvius still not getting that mass murdering dragons are wrong. It's still an Evil act, of course, even if you justify it with something like "It's such that the cycle of revenge would end", but then again, V's True Neutral - besides, I think V did it out of blind rage, not sadistic pleasure.

Still, V sounds genuinely sorry for his actions, and for now that's good for me. There better be more in store for the elf's character development.

[Krim]

A spell that doubles back? Yikes! It would have been bad enough just going "down" the family trees, but this spell also goes back "up" the other branches!

Let's just say it was a good thing Girard was paranoid, and minimized leaving the compound. If he had been free and easy with his family, how many more would have been affected? :smalleek:
Far, far less than now. Do you actually think Orrin had only one child? No, he probably had more with other women, who are now dead, as are their parents. Same goes for everyone else.

Oh, and incidentally, had he been less paranoid, the higher level Darketooth would be alive now.

[Hironomus]

You don't have to have an "evil outlook" to have an evil alignment- all you need, is to have repeatedly committed evil acts and not (yet) repented of them.

It's quite plausible to have an Evil character who does not regret committing evil acts against "the not innocent" but who feels incredibly guilty about having committed evil acts against "the innocent".

That said- at least one splatbook (Fiendish Codex 2) has a corruption system- and its level of corruption, rather than Evil Alignment- that determines if a Lawful character (or, arguably, a character who has committed many Lawful acts) goes to Baator or not (in the absence of repentance).

So- you could have a True Neutral V (as per The Giant's post on V's alignment- see Index of the Giant's Comments thread) with a corruption in the thousands (hundreds of acts of Murder, each granting a corruption of 5).

The second system is basically what I meant. I am not concrete on this point but I sort of feel like it is pointless to assign an evil alignment to something or someone who has no immediate or future plans to do anything evil. However simply being good aligned may be inappropriate too. That's where corruption comes in I guess.

Perhaps not repenting is enough of an evil outlook, varying in severity based on the deed you are not repenting of.

[eulmanis12]

I'd just like to point out that reguardless of weather or not the familicide would have killed Elan would have been fine. Durkon would just need to cast raise dead one more time and then everything is good. (at least for Elan)

[Yuki Akuma]

I'd just like to point out that reguardless of weather or not the familicide would have killed Elan would have been fine. Durkon would just need to cast raise dead one more time and then everything is good. (at least for Elan)

There's a chance an Epic Necromancy spell would have some sort of anti-resurrection clause.

[Phosphate]

I think it is very clear that Familicide has an infinite number of steps. Now, why had it not killed absolutely everyone? Well.



dead people are not considered a part of the bloodline

^ I think this gentleman right there got it right.

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

So with the trap, if you manage to catch the edge with your hands or body, does the block crush whetever is a hanging on? So it would be potentially crippling or lethal.

Also, on the 3rd panel of the 2nd page, it first hits the man to the right (our left) of the grey-bearded man. Then it jumps to the grey-bearded man and older woman (his parents), and finally hits everyone else in that panel (their children.)

[sohvan]

So, had Penelope and Tarquin had child, Elan and Nale would be killed by Familicide too (as Tarquin and his line would be eradicated)? I wonder how V would have reacted to that.


It's doubtful that the spell would be infinitely recursive, as that could kill almost everyone. Based on the description it seems to recurse only once. So it kills direct descendants and ancestors, and anyone who is a direct descendant or ancestor of the first group.

If Penelope and Tarquin had a child, Tarquin still wouldn't presumably die. Penelope's dragonchild is a direct descendant of the mother dragon, so it would die in the first group. Tarquin isn't a direct ancestor or descendant of the dragonchild, so he wouldn't die. Elan wouldn't die either. Tarquin's child might die, because it would be the dragonchild's sibling.

[HandofShadows]

And the enormity of what V did comes crashing down.

[Italian Hippy]

I think it is very clear that Familicide has an infinite number of steps. Now, why had it not killed absolutely everyone? Well.



^ I think this gentleman right there got it right.

No, I think he didn't. Otherwise the Draketooth couldn't have been obliterated so completely as shown in #841/2. One "hole" in the ancestry would mean that you don't get to kill all the family anymore.

[usuakari]

You get XP for any kill.

You most certainly do NOT. What version of D&D do you play? No XP for innocents, noncombatants, or enemies too pathetically weak to be a challenge, for instance. I've been DMing for 25+ years, and anyone who tried that kind of crap gets alignment penalties or punished by their gods, not rewarded with XP!

..and a good thing too, in this case. Considering how many creatures/people V killed with that one spell, s/he'd have jumped several levels :)

[U2QueenBee]

Wow, I didn't see that coming - the trap or the guilt. At least V has finally realised just how evil zie was?

[Krim]

for people still wondering how it works, its very clear now:

anyone who shares the bloodline with the original target is dead. this is his parents, sibbelings, children, grandchildren, etc. so this includes the whole draketooth family. the dragon V cast familicide on must've been their great-great-grand-aunt.

then, the target kills anyone who shares a bloodline with one of the people who where killed in the first strike. this means, if someone made a baby with a draketooth, that baby is killed in the first strike(having a greatgreatdragonaunt), and the mother and her family is directly related by bloodline to that baby.

but after that, it stops.

so yeah, the whole draketooth family is dead, and anyone who can say they share a bloodline with them, this the mothers and fathers of draketooths.

so penelope didnt die because she had a relation with orrin, but because she was the mother of a draketooth.

This. It really should be a sticky, and I don't know why there are still so many doubts about this.

[Quild]

I think it is very clear that Familicide has an infinite number of steps. Now, why had it not killed absolutely everyone? Well.

dead people are not considered a part of the bloodline

^ I think this gentleman right there got it right.

I think as well it's the right answer. Which means Girard may have been alive until a few weeks ago. Also, the OotS expected him to be alive on (sixth and sixth last panels (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0816.html)).
He had no entry in the casting schedule, but that's not a big deal.

Also, the worst of the spell must have been on western continent.

[Kojiro]

Ignoring the amount of sadism in this thread, I'd like to sidestep the discussion about V to note that Draketooth has been up to some scummy stuff himself (this is completely separate form the Familicide discussion, so please don't try to tie it to that and say something like "that justifies it" or "you're a terrible person for trying to justify blah blah blah"; it's in a vacuum and not tied to V's actions for the purpose of what I'm going to outline).

Specifically, as pointed out in the comic, the Draketooth line has been maintained by members of it seducing outsiders, then stealing the resulting children. In the case of the females they probably left while pregnant, but as seen with Tarquin's wife, the males had to wait for the birth of the baby, and then it to be healthy enough to be away from its mother. On both sides, it probably emotionally impacted many, many people, what with the person they loved and their (future) child mysteriously disappearing. It's a clever way to keep the clan going without inbreeding, but it isn't remotely pleasant.

Unrelated, I'm pretty sure the sound effect in the last panel is just that of the trapdoors snapping back into place, rather than some contrived secondary effects of the trap. Doubt it was fatal, either, since there's a pit there that actively prevents anyone from being crushed (if it was meant to kill then that part is pretty unnecessary), and from a storytelling standpoint that's pretty anticlimactic and unsatisfying.

[Tobz]

It's so very ironic that 'family', the thing Girard valued as the single quality able to safeguard the rift, was also their single downfall. I'm really curious at what point Rich came up with these implications of the Familicide spell for the Draketooths. Was perhaps the casting of the spell even specifically tailored into the story to wipe out the last bastion holding guarding the rifts?

The way I understand the spell, it kills all descendants and 'goes up' one step to kill the 'unrelated' parents as well. I can't remember seeing any proof it would extent even further killing their direct relatives as well (ie. the child Tarquin would have had with his wife)

If the spell would have gone deeper into other, indirectly related family trees, going as far as three steps, being able to kill Elan, the sudden decimation of the human population would certainly not have left Tarquin this clueless about his wife's death.

I do hope Girard survived though, through some trick or sheer epicness. His take on this whole thing is way too interesting for him to have been killed off-panel like this.

Maybe he pulled a similar 'eternal sentinel' trick as Soon and turned himself into the statue in the hall. Though it's not like Rich to repeat himself like that.

[Madwand]

There's a chance an Epic Necromancy spell would have some sort of anti-resurrection clause.

As I recall epic magic which can trap/destroy soul can draw ire of gods. So depending on setting/world necromancer come from it is not mandatory or even desirable side effect of said spell.

[l)arkzer0]

Well... at least V can still communicate with the group through hir dominated kobold.

[The Grazymancer]

Assuming the spell only concerns itself with (un)living targets and doesn't somehow trace back to Humanity's common matrilineal ancestor, which doesn't actually exist in a world where humans were literally created by the Gods, I don't think every human is linked by the ties of blood. Those chains would stop eventually. I'm pretty sure I couldn't find a blood link (A is related to B is related to C...is related to Z) between myself in Ireland and someone in Japan.

It shouldn't matter whether ootsverse humans were created by the gods or evolved from a common ancestor, the body count should still be enormous. Just go back a thousand years in your family tree and from that point count all your living distant cousins and the number will be in the millions. Even in the scenario that gods created tons of different family lines few thousand years ago, if every distant cousin and other relatives of Draketooth were killed there should be millions of dead from that alone, and if all the distant cousins of Penelope and everyone else who had a direct link to Draketooth line died, everyone on the planet aside from the most inbred families should be dead.

[Madwand]

I do hope Girard survived though, through some trick or sheer epicness. His take on this whole thing is way too interesting for him to have been killed off-panel like this.

Well, if he get Foresight (as per spell .. "In addition, the spell gives you a general idea of what action you might take to best protect yourself" ) active.. and seeing that there is nothing else he could do but get Contingency Stone to Flesh and turn into stone. It is not even epic level solution.

Edit: or even better he get waring that someone will cast epic spell to slay him, but not the warning about family. So he left somewhere stone to flesh scroll for them and said like "Kids, cast it on me this evening.."

[hewhosaysfish]

The Familicide spell is far more crazy than I'd thought; it's like Bacon numbers (A creature who has been turned into an undead creature or killed by a death effect can’t be raised by this spell. Constructs, elementals, outsiders, and undead creatures can’t be raised. The spell cannot bring back a creature that has died of old age.) only with bloodlines instead of films. Only those with an undefined ABD number survive...

Since most people did survive, I guess that means that the OoTS world must have been created with a sizeable human population and still be fairly young (so than not everyone is inter-related yet).
Or alternatively, the Familicide can't transfer over the relationship to a dead person, as some people have suggested. This would mean that Familicide would potentially spread further amongst a long-lived species (e.g. black dragons) than a short-lived one (e.g. humans). It would also mean that Girard (and his half-dragon parent) would have to have been alive when the Familicide was cast for the spell to have travelled from the dragons to the Draketooths.


There's a chance an Epic Necromancy spell would have some sort of anti-resurrection clause.

Well even if there wasn't, Durkon would need to use a Resurrection rather than a Raise Dead.


A creature who has been turned into an undead creature [b]or killed by a death effect[b] can’t be raised by this spell. Constructs, elementals, outsiders, and undead creatures can’t be raised. The spell cannot bring back a creature that has died of old age.

[Winthur]

Did he died? :smalleek:

[The Pilgrim]

What are you gonna do now, Vaarsuvius?

[zimmerwald1915]

What are you gonna do now, Vaarsuvius?
Cry in a corner. Possibly for a couple hundred years. :smallfrown:

[l)arkzer0]

Cry in a corner. Possibly for a couple hundred years. :smallfrown:

Dominate Person lets Vaarsuvius telepathically control the kobold at any distance as long as they are on the same plane. Since they share a language, these can be very specific, such as "say 'V fell into a trap, I'll show you where it is.'" Unless, V has been dropped into an anti magic field, she can still talk through the kobold until the enchantment expires.

He can do this while drenched in the tears of her guilt, though.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Yeesh, I understand why people are angry at V, but you're being so vindictive about it! Personally, I think this comic solidifies why V is one of my favorite characters--s/he's so complex. In some ways, this is worse than when hir family was threatened. We're seeing true guilt and remorse here, and V knows that nothing is going to make it better.

S/he's knows s/hes going to hell (or the Abyss or whatever the Neutral Evil afterlife is called here) for this, and I get the distinct feeling that instead of feeling anger or hatred or fear of whatever, V would just curl up into a little ball and glumly, mutely accept it. Because s/he knows s/he deserves it.

[Tracker99]

Well she did kill several thousand sentient innocents to spite(not defeat!) an already dead dragon.

There is at least an argument to be made. Assuming you think anyone can be beyond redemption.

No, V never did that purely out of spite, her intention (as she stated during the act) was to protect her family, to ensure that this situation wouldn't repeat.

No dragon, no friends of dragons, no family of said dragon, no descendants, nobody who bore any real relation to those dragons were wiped out, so there was nobody left to seek retribution in the same manner that the dragon him/herself sought V's family out for after what OoTS did to the whelp..

She seems to recognise what she did was wrong, she isn't trying to weasel out of it through justification, she isn't trying to blame someone else or squirm, she's accepting what she did was wrong. That at least is the first step on the road to redemption.

But as Tsu found out earlier ... "Redemption is not for everyone..."

At any rate, this is the second time i've gone through the realisation that the spell was on a much bigger scale than i'd originally thought.. (1/4 dragons.. 1/4 dragons and the bloodline including humanoids.. to.. well, all this!), now that really is an epic spell.

[ellindsey]

Wow. I was pretty sure that the Familicide spell killed Penelope, but if it killed her family as well, it went a lot further than even I thought.

Poor Vaarsuvius. Yes, I feel sorry for V, even though casting Familicide was an utterly horrific thing to do and V has nobody to blame but her/himself.

[Castamir]

You most certainly do NOT. What version of D&D do you play? No XP for innocents, noncombatants, or enemies too pathetically weak to be a challenge, for instance. I've been DMing for 25+ years, and anyone who tried that kind of crap gets alignment penalties or punished by their gods, not rewarded with XP!
Either every single of characters you've been DMing for was good aligned, or you're an epically bad DM.

If you're of The Only Fun Alignment™, mass-murdering innocents for no personal gain may even get you roleplaying XP. :smallcool:

[Trekkin]

Cry in a corner. Possibly for a couple hundred years. :smallfrown:

And then, most probably, try to concoct some sort of Un-Familicide. I know zhe's been having a lot of character development regarding superfluous use of planet-shattering arcane power, but honestly, it seems to me that's the lens through which Vaarsuvius perceives the world, at least locally. Zhe is, right now, facing the prospect that she committed genocide out of spite by selling her soul to fiends and giving a damned necromancer lease to run free out of Hell once more--and zhe seems to me like exactly the sort of person to logic through that just like zhe logiced through the Familicide algorithm, decide it's a magic problem needing a magic solution, and perhaps at most bug her master to help her fix it.

[Brumski]

Lots of Familicide debating, I'll put in my two cents:

How I View Familicide

Consider one individual at a time to figure out whether they would have been targeted or not, don't try to make sweeping suggestions about how many "hops" it will take.

Orrin (direct descendent of a black dragon = dead) -->
His child with Penelope (direct blood relative of Orrin = dead) -->
Penelope (direct blood relative of his child = dead) -->
hypothetical child from Penelope and Tarquin (direct blood relative of Penelope = dead) -->
Tarquin (direct blood relative of hypo baby = dead)
Elan (direct blood relative of T = dead)


Also, I'd bet on either Girard (being protected from Familicide by his own epic magic) or the halfling rogue woman being in the whole to interrogate V.

[Chobarth]

I like how Haerta designed a spell to kill everyone who was a blood relative of her enemy, but did absolutely nothing about non-blood relations, which are often far more likely to seek revenge than distant cousins. Apparently Evil Is Dumb. (Granted she may have intended it as a deterrence weapon or something rather than the use to which V put it, but her soul didn't seem surprised by this application.)


Humans aren't so long lived. She probably didn't design it with Dragons in mind... (though she was so evil "Haerta Bloodsoak" = self named? or her evil parents expected alot from her?). Though the effects on the Elvish, or even Dwarven community would be pretty dire as well.



My concern is more...Vaarsuvius continues to not get it.

"Oh, crap! I killed a lot of humans too! It would be just fine if the spell had only hit dragons, but I should have known it wouldn't!" Gaaah. No, Vaarsuvius, I still hate you. Suffer.

There is little indication that V doesn't 'get it'... for the first time, V seems to comprehend it fully. I just don't think he cares about the evil black dragons and their spawn. [yes, yes, the stupid alignment rules allow for small amounts of non-evil dragons / dragonspawn] Vaarsuvius has never seemed to care about Familicide until this moment - the collateral damage seems to have been acceptable until now. V just doesn't agree with you about the black dragons.


So, had Penelope and Tarquin had child, Elan and Nale would be killed by Familicide too (as Tarquin and his line would be eradicated)? I wonder how V would have reacted to that.

No, I don't think so. Would have killed the child, but not Tarquin, Elan, or Nale. Those 3 don't share the blood with ABD. The final jump is the draketooth 1/2 sibling. As so many posters have said, if the jumps don't stop SOMEWHERE then the entire planet is effected. So Penelope's creation of a Draketooth child put HER at risk, and any other offspring she created or descendants of those offspring. But the sense I get from reading the strips is that Burlew meant the spell to stop at that point.

Horrific spell, but wouldn't wipe out all of mankind, dragonkind, and anything else the affected of those species reproduced with.

[Myrdhale]

I'm still Not clear in how exactlY Familicide Works...so it Wohle habe Killed a Child of penelope ans Tarquin (ans that. Childs children), but Not Tarquin? Or is this One of Thies situations where the characters themaelves also don't have all the Information?

Tarquin was Married to the ex wife of Orrin Draketooth. Tarquin never had any Kids with her, her child was Orrin's.

Edit: having read the comic I see what you're talking about. I think it ends after sharing blood with someone who shared blood with someone who had blood of the dragon. Tarquin's wife had a child directly related to the Dragon's line, so her and any of her progeny are forfeit. But Tarquin, if she had borne him a child, would be a third level removed from teh blood line, which seems to be the limit. Blood that mixed directly with the Dragon blood. Although that does make me wonder about any ancestors of Tarquin's wife that might have been around.

[Quild]

Dominate Person lets Vaarsuvius telepathically control the kobold at any distance as long as they are on the same plane. Since they share a language, these can be very specific, such as "say 'V fell into a trap, I'll show you where it is.'" Unless, V has been dropped into an anti magic field, she can still talk through the kobold until the enchantment expires.

He can do this while drenched in the tears of her guilt, though.

Wouldn't the spell be broken if V just was knocked? Didn't she lost the concentration it requires to maintain the spell?

Since the duration is 1day/level, I don't see how it goes when the caster get asleep :x.

[Myrdhale]

No, I don't think so. Would have killed the child, but not Tarquin, Elan, or Nale. Those 3 don't share the blood with ABD. The final jump is the draketooth 1/2 sibling. As so many posters have said, if the jumps don't stop SOMEWHERE then the entire planet is effected. So Penelope's creation of a Draketooth child put HER at risk, and any other offspring she created or descendants of those offspring. But the sense I get from reading the strips is that Burlew meant the spell to stop at that point.

Horrific spell, but wouldn't wipe out all of mankind, dragonkind, and anything else the affected of those species reproduced with.

Yeah that makes sense. Direct blood lineage, as in , she had a child with a Draketooth so her bloodline is now directly tied to them. It's what I figured to, Tarquin wouldn't be able to back track the spell without knowing what he was looking for a head of time. Retribution against Varssuvius isn't likely. It took the Oracle to identify him for the Dragon, afterall.

[Deepbluediver]

This is getting really heavy.

So much drama; remember when this used to be an action/comedy comic?

[zimmerwald1915]

Dominate Person lets Vaarsuvius telepathically control the kobold at any distance as long as they are on the same plane. Since they share a language, these can be very specific, such as "say 'V fell into a trap, I'll show you where it is.'" Unless, V has been dropped into an anti magic field, she can still talk through the kobold until the enchantment expires.

He can do this while drenched in the tears of her guilt, though.
I was referring to the depth of her guilt and the time she, being an elf, has available to wallow in it. I was not referring to the degree of ease with which she could escape the trap. I think you know this.


And then, most probably, try to concoct some sort of Un-Familicide. I know zhe's been having a lot of character development regarding superfluous use of planet-shattering arcane power, but honestly, it seems to me that's the lens through which Vaarsuvius perceives the world, at least locally. Zhe is, right now, facing the prospect that she committed genocide out of spite by selling her soul to fiends and giving a damned necromancer lease to run free out of Hell once more--and zhe seems to me like exactly the sort of person to logic through that just like zhe logiced through the Familicide algorithm, decide it's a magic problem needing a magic solution, and perhaps at most bug her master to help her fix it.
Non-epic acane magic cannot restore the dead to life. I'm not entirely sure if epic arcane magic can do so, but the point is fairly moot as V is still far from epic.

EDIT: well, Wish can. But the point is still moot as V cannot cast Wish.

[Duos Greanleef]

HOLY CROW! This makes so much sense!

I think this is a little bit of backpedaling on Rich's part though. There weren't any humans in the original page. It totally stands to reason based on the "propensity of both dragons and humans for breeding outside of their species." So, perhaps, the word "backpedaling" was something of a misnomer. But this was an example of Rich's tendency of write a good comic first, then go back and connect them later.

Good work, Giant. Good work.

[Krim]

Lots of Familicide debating, I'll put in my two cents:

How I View Familicide

Consider one individual at a time to figure out whether they would have been targeted or not, don't try to make sweeping suggestions about how many "hops" it will take.

Orrin (direct descendent of a black dragon = dead) -->
His child with Penelope (direct blood relative of Orrin = dead) -->
Penelope (direct blood relative of his child = dead) -->
hypothetical child from Penelope and Tarquin (direct blood relative of Penelope = dead) -->
Tarquin (direct blood relative of hypo baby = dead)
Elan (direct blood relative of T = dead)


Also, I'd bet on either Girard (being protected from Familicide by his own epic magic) or the halfling rogue woman being in the whole to interrogate V.
No...

Orrin (direct descendent of a black dragon = Direct Target, dead) -->
His child with Penelope (direct blood relative of Orrin = Direct Target, dead) -->
Penelope (direct blood relative of his child = Direct Blood relative of Direct Target= Indirect Target, Dead) -->
hypothetical child from Penelope and Tarquin (direct blood relative of Penelope, who is only Indirect Target = alive) -->
Tarquin (direct blood relative of hypo baby, not even indirect target = alive)
Elan (direct blood relative of T = alive)

Why is it so hard to understand. Why? :smallconfused::smallconfused:

[rrgg]

I still think v is jumping to conclusions. . .

[UtimaII]

Is it wrong that my first reaction to this strip was "HOLY **** - When Tarquin said his wife died of mysterious Circumstances HE WAS JUST TELLING THE LITERAL TRUTH"

(A pink lightning bolt striking someone dead from a clear sky for no reason sure is a pretty mysterious circumstance!)

I think that it's more surprising that Tarquin had nothing to do with his wife's death. The way he said (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0727.html) in the first time, implied that he was the one who had her killed. Even when it seemed that Nale might have done it, Tarquin still seemed to be the man who killed his wife.

[rbetieh]

Fantastic strip, it ends a forum argument and moves the story along, but it leaves one thing dangling. How on earth did Tarquin ever get the idea that Nale killed Penelope when it is patently obvious that a bunch of other people would have randomly keeled over on the same day at the same time in his three kingdoms? Sorry, but now I would say that T should have been marshalling his resources to try and find a raving serial killer on the loose in the western continent.


I like how Haerta designed a spell to kill everyone who was a blood relative of her enemy, but did absolutely nothing about non-blood relations, which are often far more likely to seek revenge than distant cousins. Apparently Evil Is Dumb. (Granted she may have intended it as a deterrence weapon or something rather than the use to which V put it, but her soul didn't seem surprised by this application.)

(Edited per the Giant.)

I agree with this, I would have designed the spell to also show anyone nearby the illusion of the most common "worst enemy" of those nearby killing the target so as to sow as much chaos and confusion into the mix as possible. Why stop at genocide when you can add world war into the mix as well :smallbiggrin: and nobody would ever think it was you....

[Phosphate]

No, I think he didn't. Otherwise the Draketooth couldn't have been obliterated so completely as shown in #841/2. One "hole" in the ancestry would mean that you don't get to kill all the family anymore.

Then there wasn't a hole in the ancestry.

[Nilan8888]

Ah, V.

As a famous rock band once wrote,


"They're gonna send ya back to mother
In a Cardboard Box.

You better run."

[Myrdhale]

No...

Orrin (direct descendent of a black dragon = Direct Target, dead) -->
His child with Penelope (direct blood relative of Orrin = Direct Target, dead) -->
Penelope (direct blood relative of his child = Direct Blood relative of Direct Target= Indirect Target, Dead) -->
hypothetical child from Penelope and Tarquin (direct blood relative of Penelope, who is only Indirect Target = alive) -->
Tarquin (direct blood relative of hypo baby, not even indirect target = alive)
Elan (direct blood relative of T = alive)

Why is it so hard to understand. Why? :smallconfused::smallconfused:

ah putting it that way, the indirect target of it makes sense. The spell has a certain range, it's not like it starts fullpower anew for each bloodline. It's how many degrees of seperation there are from the main bloodline I suppose. Looks to be about 3 roughly before the spell stops hitting.

[ellindsey]

Since there's still some question about the timing, I have put together an alternate form of the timeline, this one showing the day-by-day events.

This still might be off by a day or two here or there. It's not clear exactly how many days some of the travel times or search sequences took.

Wednesday (F-1):
Penelope gets the tip about the Windy Canyon

Thursday (F0):
Strips 623 - 670
V makes the deal with the IFCC
Familicide is cast
Penelope dies of mysterious causes
The Draketooth clan is wiped out in the middle of lunch
The Azure City refugee fleet is teleported to an island near the Western Continent
Roy is resurrected
V attacks Xykon
The phylactery is lost
O'chul is rescued

Friday (F+1):
Strips 671 - 672
The Order leaves for Sandsedge on Hinjo's fastest ship.

Saturday (F+2):
Strips 673 - 682
The Order is in Sandsedge
V gets notice of a divorce hearing
The Order departs with a caravan headed for an oasis two days away.

Sunday (F+3):
Not shown
Traveling with the caravan

Monday (F+4):
Strips 683 – 687
Slavers attack the caravan, the Order drives them away.
The caravan reaches the oasis.
The Order is rewarded for saving the caravan.

Tuesday (F+5):
Strips 688 - 692
The Order rides a giant sandworm to the false gate location
Search montage (takes one day and night)

Wednesday (F+6):
Strips 692 - 698
The Order finds Girard's hidden message
More searching
Zz'dtri scries on the location

Thursday (F+7):
Friday (F+8):
Saturday (F+9):
Sunday (F+10):
Not shown
Walking through the desert to the Empire of Blood

Monday (F+11):
Strips 710 - 747
The Order is in the Empire of Blood, looking for clues
V, Haley, Elan are captured by bounty hunters
Meeting Tarquin, who promises three days and nights of merriment
Roy and Belkar are captured.
Feast night

Tuesday (F+12):
Strips 748 - 774
A full day spent in the Empire of Blood. Second day and night of merriment
Parade sequence, dramatic confrontation between Elan and Tarquin
Haley finds her father

Wednesday (F+13):
Strips 775 - 822
Special mid-week gladiator games
Linear Guild attacks
V is banished to Plane of Ranch Dressing
Order gets flying carpet, heads for Windy Canyon
Tarquin captures Nale, decides to purse Order to the gate

Thursday (F+14):
Not shown
Order traveling to Windy Canyon

Friday (F+15):
Strips 834 - 835
Order arrives at Windy Canyon
Durkon and Belkar find V, and head back to rejoin the others

Saturday (F+16):
Strips 836 -
Order enters Girard's pyramid, finds bodies dead for at least two weeks.

[Icedaemon]

Well, this strip was satisfying.

[Hironomus]

No...

Orrin (direct descendent of a black dragon = Direct Target, dead) -->
His child with Penelope (direct blood relative of Orrin = Direct Target, dead) -->
Penelope (direct blood relative of his child = Direct Blood relative of Direct Target= Indirect Target, Dead) -->
hypothetical child from Penelope and Tarquin (direct blood relative of Penelope, who is only Indirect Target = alive) -->
Tarquin (direct blood relative of hypo baby, not even indirect target = alive)
Elan (direct blood relative of T = alive)

Why is it so hard to understand. Why? :smallconfused::smallconfused:

Well in this instance its difficult to understand because Varsuuvius stated that the hypothetical Tarquin/ Penelope child would be affected. Don't get me wrong, of all the people trying to explain familicide here you are the one I agree with most I think.

[Yuki Akuma]

Wouldn't the spell be broken if V just was knocked? Didn't she lost the concentration it requires to maintain the spell?

Since the duration is 1day/level, I don't see how it goes when the caster get asleep :x.

Dominate Person doesn't require concentration. If it did, it would say "Duration: Concentration (up to 1 day/level)."

V needs to be conscious to make telepathic commands, but the spell requires absolutely no conscious direction from her other than that.

[qwertyu63]

Well in this instance its difficult to understand because Varsuuvius stated that the hypothetical Tarquin/ Penelope child would be affected.

I would think the easiest answer to this is to wonder just how much V knew about how the spell works. I mean think, s/he didn't invent it, so she could be wrong about how it works. If even s/he doesn't know exactly how it works, then all bets are off.

(Small note, I support the theory quoted in the post I am quoting)

[Hbgplayer]

Since there's still some question about the timing, I have put together an alternate form of the timeline, this one showing the day-by-day events.

This still might be off by a day or two here or there. It's not clear exactly how many days some of the travel times or search sequences took.

Wednesday (F-1):
Penelope gets the tip about the Windy Canyon

Thursday (F0):
Strips 623 - 670
V makes the deal with the IFCC
Familicide is cast
Penelope dies of mysterious causes
The Draketooth clan is wiped out in the middle of lunch
The Azure City refugee fleet is teleported to an island near the Western Continent
Roy is resurrected
V attacks Xykon
The phylactery is lost
O'chul is rescued

Friday (F+1):
Strips 671 - 672
The Order leaves for Sandsedge on Hinjo's fastest ship.

Saturday (F+2):
Strips 673 - 682
The Order is in Sandsedge
V gets notice of a divorce hearing
The Order departs with a caravan headed for an oasis two days away.

Sunday (F+3):
Not shown
Traveling with the caravan

Monday (F+4):
Strips 683 – 687
Slavers attack the caravan, the Order drives them away.
The caravan reaches the oasis.
The Order is rewarded for saving the caravan.

Tuesday (F+5):
Strips 688 - 692
The Order rides a giant sandworm to the false gate location
Search montage (takes one day and night)

Wednesday (F+6):
Strips 692 - 698
The Order finds Girard's hidden message
More searching
Zz'dtri scries on the location

Thursday (F+7):
Friday (F+8):
Saturday (F+9):
Sunday (F+10):
Not shown
Walking through the desert to the Empire of Blood

Monday (F+11):
Strips 710 - 747
The Order is in the Empire of Blood, looking for clues
V, Haley, Elan are captured by bounty hunters
Meeting Tarquin, who promises three days and nights of merriment
Roy and Belkar are captured.
Feast night

Tuesday (F+12):
Strips 748 - 774
A full day spent in the Empire of Blood. Second day and night of merriment
Parade sequence, dramatic confrontation between Elan and Tarquin
Haley finds her father

Wednesday (F+13):
Strips 775 - 822
Special mid-week gladiator games
Linear Guild attacks
V is banished to Plane of Ranch Dressing
Order gets flying carpet, heads for Windy Canyon
Tarquin captures Nale, decides to purse Order to the gate

Thursday (F+14):
Not shown
Order traveling to Windy Canyon

Friday (F+15):
Strips 834 - 835
Order arrives at Windy Canyon
Durkon and Belkar find V, and head back to rejoin the others

Saturday (F+16):
Strips 836 -
Order enters Girard's pyramid, finds bodies dead for at least two weeks.

You know, it is really, really disconcerting to see 200+ strips reduced down to... two weeks! That is more than two years of strips!

Also, thank you for figuring that out.

[t209]

One question: So the purple king had Draketooth as a concubine or just had a black dragon in their blood.

[Grey Watcher]

I, for one, am digging seeing V talk in something other than his usual cold, calculating, and occasionally smug manner. It's good to see characters shaken out of their typical mode of thinking for a bit.

Also, last row of panels is totally a dun dun DUUUUUUUUUUN! moment.

[DaveMcW]

I think it would be hilarious if it turns out Haerta did accidentally kill herself with Familicide by not realizing that she was actually related to the target.

She can solve this by casting it on herself first.

[RMS Oceanic]

You know, it is really, really disconcerting to see 200+ strips reduced down to... two weeks! That is more than two years of strips!

Also, thank you for figuring that out.

376 - 490 happened over three comic-days, flashback excluded.

[Palthera]

Well in this instance its difficult to understand because Varsuuvius stated that the hypothetical Tarquin/ Penelope child would be affected. Don't get me wrong, of all the people trying to explain familicide here you are the one I agree with most I think.

I think the reason the hypothetical Tarquin/Penelope baby is affected is because they are a direct relative to a direct bloodline person: namely, their half sister who is a direct descendant and with whom they share blood - Penelope's. Tarquin would be unaffected however as he is not related at all to the Orrin/Penelope baby, and his offspring by other women (namely Elan and Nale) would not be affected because they have no blood link.

I think...

[t209]

I hope V gets to be in hell or in hole.
Kids, this is the example of dangers of vengeance and lust for power.

[Kareasint]

Actually, the quest is optional. I mean, sure, Durkon would totally be the kind of cleric that would issue the quest, but that's why it's called "Anticlimactic Nonsense Theater." :smalltongue:


With the amount of guilt V's showing right now, as well as the... :smallcool: Lack of Foresight as of recent, I don't think an alignment change would be much of a hindrance.

Correct. The Cleric pays the Exp cost for talking directly to their deity. This is why a quest is normally imposed on the petitioner. Durkon would be within his rights to make that sort of request also. The big question still remains: Once V is located by the rest of the Order, does V tell them what happened?

Reaction from Roy, Durkon, Haley and Elan: Complete shock.

Reaction of Belkar: Complete shock (that V has a bigger body count now).

[Bulldog Psion]

Weird random thought -- I wonder if Haerta accidentally killed herself casting familicide, because of an unsuspected link to one of her targets?

That would be quite ironic.

[Krim]

I think the reason the hypothetical Tarquin/Penelope baby is affected is because they are a direct relative to a direct bloodline person: namely, their half sister who is a direct descendant and with whom they share blood - Penelope's. Tarquin would be unaffected however as he is not related at all to the Orrin/Penelope baby, and his offspring by other women (namely Elan and Nale) would not be affected because they have no blood link.

I think...

Not sure if we can trust V's deductions in his state of utter shock, but anyway, there IS an open question of wether "half brother" counts for familicide. I was assuming it doesn't, but I could be wrong on that. Still, that would kill the hypothetic child, but certainly not Tarquin or Elan.

[Sicarius]

I made a remark about this in the discussion thread two strips ago. The reason why I didn't think it was Familicide at that time was that no one made any mention of random people just killing it due to evil necro-lightning. *shrug*

[GMantis]

Weird random thought -- I wonder if Haerta accidentally killed herself casting familicide, because of an unsuspected link to one of her targets?

That would be quite ironic.
Probably not, considering she was already dead.

[Cikomyr]

This, ladies and gents, is a textbook example of In-universe Fridge Horror at it's finest. The more you think about a situation, the more you realize te terrible, terrible implications of the actions undertaken.

And sadly for V, if there is one thing he cannot stop doing, it's thinking.


There might never be any true redemption for him, but there might be forgiveness somewhere. Step up, buddy, if you want to achieve more than Grand Genocide in your lifetime.

[St Fan]

Either every single of characters you've been DMing for was good aligned, or you're an epically bad DM.

If you're of The Only Fun Alignment™, mass-murdering innocents for no personal gain may even get you roleplaying XP. :smallcool:

Thanks for calling us all bad DMs.

Sorry, you're wrong. "killing get you XP" is a misconception, sadly too widespread.

You get XP from surmounting a challenge. Killing plenty of helpless innocents may be in character for an evil PC, but if they're no challenge in fighting them you get no XP. (And "Stupid Evil" not being a valid alignment, you probably get no roleplaying XP either.)

Likewise, you don't have to kill to get XP. Opponents forced to surrender, paralysed, dominated, knocked out, wrestled with and then tied up - all of them give you XP without needing to kill, at least if the CR is high enough.

[Oakianus]

No...

Orrin (direct descendent of a black dragon = Direct Target, dead) -->
His child with Penelope (direct blood relative of Orrin = Direct Target, dead) -->
Penelope (direct blood relative of his child = Direct Blood relative of Direct Target= Indirect Target, Dead) -->
hypothetical child from Penelope and Tarquin (direct blood relative of Penelope, who is only Indirect Target = alive) -->
Tarquin (direct blood relative of hypo baby, not even indirect target = alive)
Elan (direct blood relative of T = alive)

Why is it so hard to understand. Why? :smallconfused::smallconfused:

So close! But the hypothetical child would have died per V's text in this very comic we are discussing. "I am the one who slew Tarquin's wife! And had she borne him a child, I would have slain it as well!"

I'm in favor of the two-jolt cast, essentially. The ABD is the target. Anyone directly related by blood, up or down, becomes a secondary target. Then the same up and down search is performed on any secondary targets, creating tertiary targets. Then all of the targets die.

This means that any of Penelope's family, as a secondary target, should have dropped dead. This would have included the hypothetical baby, as V says, but not Tarquin (who we can presume V would have mentioned while bemoaning the fate of his hypothetical child.)


Thanks for calling us all bad DMs.

Sorry, you're wrong. "killing get you XP" is a misconception, sadly too widespread.

You get XP from surmounting a challenge. Killing plenty of helpless innocents may be in character for an evil PC, but if they're no challenge in fighting them you get no XP. (And "Stupid Evil" not being a valid alignment, you probably get no roleplaying XP either.)

Likewise, you don't have to kill to get XP. Opponents forced to surrender, paralysed, dominated, knocked out, wrestled with and then tied up - all of them give you XP without needing to kill, at least if the CR is high enough.

I got the impression that the "Bad DM" bit was about punishments from the Gods and alignment changes rather than the "No XP for murdering innocent peasants" thing.

Just sayin.

[MoonCat]

Dammit Giant, you get me to feel evil for laughing at V's sudden exit, bring me to tears as I read the rest of it, and then DO SOMETHING TO MY FAVORITE CHARACTER???!?!?!?!??

...I hate you.

...Not really. But damn, WHY ARE YOU DOING THIS TO US IT RUNS OUR LiVES WE CARE SO MUCH STOPPIT MEAN MAN WITH POWERS TO KILL OFF VAARSUVIUS!!!!!!!!!!!

...Dammit, I'm going to school in five minutes. This is all your fault Giant.

[Chobarth]

Thanks for calling us all bad DMs.

Sorry, you're wrong. "killing get you XP" is a misconception, sadly too widespread.

You get XP from surmounting a challenge. Killing plenty of helpless innocents may be in character for an evil PC, but if they're no challenge in fighting them you get no XP. (And "Stupid Evil" not being a valid alignment, you probably get no roleplaying XP either.)

Likewise, you don't have to kill to get XP. Opponents forced to surrender, paralysed, dominated, knocked out, wrestled with and then tied up - all of them give you XP without needing to kill, at least if the CR is high enough.

LOL... the guy called you Epically bad DM's. Made me chuckle.

Anyway, I'm not saying he was right or wrong, but have a question. What about role-play XP? That does exist still right? (I admit, destroying an orphanage and calling it 'evil role-playing' just isn't inventive enough to be rewarded.)

Maybe a better question: What "role-playing" would a player deserve some XP? Any examples?

[Oakianus]

I can see some circumstances where you could end up killing an orphanage while role playing well. I mean, burning up orphans for sport is not, in and of itself, very exciting role-playing. But if the children had mocked you on your way into town and you gave a megalomaniacal speech about how none who slight you can be allowed to live and that their very homes would be razed to the ground as you did it, I can definitely see a justification for some good RP XP for one's actions.

Mind you, I deplore Evil campaigns and would never run one, but if I did....

[Kojiro]

LOL... the guy called you Epically bad DM's. Made me chuckle.

Anyway, I'm not saying he was right or wrong, but have a question. What about role-play XP? That does exist still right? (I admit, destroying an orphanage and calling it 'evil role-playing' just isn't inventive enough to be rewarded.)

Maybe a better question: What "role-playing" would a player deserve some XP? Any examples?

Keeping up consistent and well-acted in-character dialog and actions throughout the RP, rather than just "you did a thing in character, you get exp".

Also, he was wrong, because the rules explicitly state that, after a certain point in power, you don't get exp for weak things. Most innocents being low level, such a killing spree would in fact result in little to no gain. Check the Player's Handbook. (Or was it the Dungeon Master's Guide... Whatever. One of the two.)

[Cikomyr]

You shouldn't get xp for killing stuff that wouldn't fight back. Otherwise butchers would be the most leveled up characters on any village.

XP is a way to articulate the experience accumulated by overcoming challenges. If an orphanage is well-protected and there is an actual challenge in butchering everyone in it, then maybe there would be experience. Otherwise, no way. Real RPGs arent video games.

[DrivinAllNight]

Ok, is it just me, or are there eyes in the second to last panel? they look like little blue eyes, like something or someone is hiding in the shadows? Am I wrong here?

[psijac]

I.really felt bad for V when I saw him run down the stairs

[Arancaytar]

Wait; fridge logic moment. Sure, Tarquin's last wife died under mysterious circumstances, but what V is talking about here is an entire continent suffering an epidemic of mysterious circumstances, frequently befalling entire families. Shouldn't that kind of thing have drawn quite a lot of attention before now?

[RMS Oceanic]

Ok, is it just me, or are there eyes in the second to last panel? they look like little blue eyes, like something or someone is hiding in the shadows? Am I wrong here?

You are wrong, they're just movement lines to indicate the trap door is resetting. Look at similar lines while the giant hammer/mallet/whatever it is retreats to the ceiling.

[Grey Watcher]

Ok, is it just me, or are there eyes in the second to last panel? they look like little blue eyes, like something or someone is hiding in the shadows? Am I wrong here?

I'm pretty sure those are just lines to help give the impression of the movement of the parts of the trapdoor. Given that they're the same color as the other movement lines and the sound effects and there isn't any kind of shadow or anything behind them that could be concealing a creature....

EDIT: Ninja'd. By a boat?

[RMS Oceanic]

Wait; fridge logic moment. Sure, Tarquin's last wife died under mysterious circumstances, but what V is talking about here is an entire continent suffering an epidemic of mysterious circumstances, frequently befalling entire families. Shouldn't that kind of thing have drawn quite a lot of attention before now?

If you recall from the 670's, the Western Continent is pretty fragmented, a mass of shifting countries and territories. In such a Chaotic Environment, it would make sense for the Draketooth Clan to carry out their operations in different countries every time, to reduce the risk of any authorities picking up on the pattern of kidnapping/burglaries. A similar rationale would explain why no-one has picked up on all the sudden deaths, there's no-one to correlate all the occurrences, and the families can't raise the alarm on account of being dead..

[Malimar]

My first inclination was to describe Familicide thusly:

(I)
Step 1: All of ABD's ancestors and descendants are killed. Call these "direct targets".
Step 2: All of the ancestors and descendants of any direct target are killed. Call these "indirect targets".

If we assume that Girard's grandsire was a direct ancestor of the ABD, and therefore a direct target, this makes all of the Draketooths, including Orrin and the Orrin/Penelope child, indirect targets. Which makes Penelope not a target. But Penelope was killed by Familicide, so there must be a problem with this theory.

It could be that the Draketooths are in fact direct targets, which means they're directly descended from the ABD, which means Girard's grandsire must be the ABD's juvenile son. This has a myriad of problems, not least that the mating between Girard's grandsire and the redhead must have taken place at least a century or two ago, and a Juvenile dragon is 26-50 years old, so we can rule this out as a possibility.

Another possibility is that Familicide does recurse until it runs out of targets. But I'm not inclined to abandon the "only two steps" theory, because a.) it's always been phrased very specifically as having exactly two steps and b.) a lot more people should be dead if it recurses forever, even on a young earth like the OotS universe.

A third possibility is that Familicide ignores you (and your descendants and ancestors) if you're already dead. But this requires that no Draketooth, including Girard's parent and grandsire, had ever died until Familicide. If there were any dead Draketooths, their descendants would have survived Familicide, so there would be Draketooths left. It would also require a lot fewer black dragons to have ever died than I would expect. This isn't impossible, it's just very unlikely.

The fourth, and clearly most likely, possibility is that I had simply misinterpreted what "shares your bloodline" means, and the actual mechanics of the spell are:

(II)
Step 1: All of the descendants of any of ABD's ancestors are killed (direct targets).
Step 2: All of the descendants of any of the ancestors of any direct target are killed (indirect targets).

The only problem I have with this is that, if I were writing a description of these mechanics, I wouldn't have given it as Vaarsuvius's two steps; I'd have given it as three:

(III)
Step 1: All of the ABD's ancestors and descendants are killed (primary targets).
Step 2: All of the ancestors and descendants of any primary target are killed (secondary targets).
Step 3: All of the ancestors and descendants of any secondary target are killed (tertiary targets).

(II) and (III) are, I'm pretty sure, mechanically identical, and consistent with the effects as portrayed in the comic, if we assume that Girard's grandsire is either a direct ancestor of the ABD (and thus a direct/primary target) or a direct descendant of a direct ancestor of the ABD (and thus a direct/secondary target). Either way, all Draketooths are direct but secondary targets, as non-primary direct descendants of a primary target. Because Penelope is an ancestor of a secondary target, she would be an indirect/tertiary target and wouldn't pass it on to anyone but her own ancestors and descendants. Tarquin, Elan, and Nale would be safe, even if Tarquin and Penelope had a child together.

[St Fan]

Anyway, I'm not saying he was right or wrong, but have a question. What about role-play XP? That does exist still right? (I admit, destroying an orphanage and calling it 'evil role-playing' just isn't inventive enough to be rewarded.)

Maybe a better question: What "role-playing" would a player deserve some XP? Any examples?

I haven't roleplayed in a while, but I'd say, good role-playing would the player having a character do something a normal person in the given situation would do, rather than acting entirely dictated by the rules. Especially if there's absolutely no advantage of doing so gamewise, maybe even penalizing the character (though that's hardly a necessity).

Here's a very minor example: a PC triggers a trap, and the DM describes it as a heavy block falling on the char's foot, costing him HP. The first reflex of gamers would be to heal the injured one, and to check for other traps. Now, if the player's immediate reaction is to have his character jumping up and down on his valid leg while holding his foot and cursing a storm, including a few blasphemous swears toward the gods of the setting... that could get some XP, if only for the chuckle.

Now, a sadistic DM (like me) could grant more if he rules out that the yelling have attracted errant monsters, and maybe also if the PC has triggered another trap by doing the one-legged dance.

Doing something like this solely in the hope of getting XP, however, should be discouraged.

[Winter Light]

I feel like this update did a lot to recover some of my lost sympathy for V.

While she may still wind up hiding her actions while acting as Darth V from the party, she does at least seem to be willing to not lie to herself about her culpability.