Magic: The Gathering Thread XIV: Instant Annoying, Just Add Hexproof

[tgva8889]

http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd293/Uncle_Festy/Planeswalkers.pnghttp://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd293/Uncle_Festy/AkromaBanner.png
Can't touch this thread. Unless you're me.
All art by Uncle Festy. Worship him for his god like art skills.
Also, he takes requests. Sometimes. Usually he bites your head off if he isn't in the 'art' mood.

It's the 13th official Magic: the Gathering thread on Giantitp forums!
This is the place for everything regarding the game - rules questions, your own card creations, decks, reports, rants about recent sets/cards/rules changes, the storyline, favorite cards/colors/sets/characters/pros/articles, the absolute glory/terrible creation that is Elder Dragon Highlander Commander, or any other awesome Magical exploits.
And definitely don't be shy if you're new to the game or think about starting. We would love to bring more players in, and help you get started!

If you want, you can post decks and have them placed here in a list similar to the one below! Shoot me a PM if you're interested and I don't have my Ivory Mask.
The Deck Gallery:


Mirrinus' "Norg'Creatures:
4 Cloud Sprite (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Cloud%20Sprite)
4 Spellstutter Sprite (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Spellstutter%20Sprite)
4 Pestermite (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Pestermite)
3 Thieving Sprite (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Thieving%20Sprite)
3 Latchkey Faerie (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Latchkey%20Faerie)
4 Ninja of the Deep Hours (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Ninja%20of%20the%20Deep%20Ho urs)
2 Okiba-Gang Shinobi (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Ninja%20of%20the%20Deep%20Ho urs)

Instants:
4 Mana Leak (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Mana%20Leak)
4 Agony Warp (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Agony%20Warp)
3 Rend Flesh (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Rend%20Flesh)
2 Condescend (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Condescend)

Lands:
4 Terramorphic Expanse (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Terramorphic%20Expanse)
7 Swamp
12 Island

Sideboard:
2 Mistblade Shinobi (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Mistblade%20Shinobi)
3 Echoing Truth (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Echoing%20Truth)
3 Negate (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Negate)
3 Remove Soul (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Remove%20Soul)
4 Peppersmoke (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Peppersmoke)

The basic strategy is to play evasive creatures with nice CIP abilities, then bounce them with ninja to replay them again, gaining tons of card advantage. Save the instant counters for things you can't handle, like high cost spells that Spellstutter Sprite can't hit, or board-wiping spells. The deck has lots of disruption and can usually play pretty aggressively. Nearly every spell can potentially 2-for-1 the opponent, giving me control of the game thanks to my strong card advantage. It's a very cheap deck to build due to being made entirely of commons, yet I find that it's still a solid deck to play in other casual formats as well. Its biggest weaknesses appear to be board-sweeping spells and pingers, so my sideboard is built to accomidate either of those threats. Peppersmoke handles most pingers and can decimate casual aggro decks. Remove Soul is also good against aggro, while Negate is for control decks that have been popular lately. Echoing Truth is to stop pauper storm decks based on Empty the Warrens, and the Mistblade Shinobi is for keeping midrange creature decks off balance.



Mirrinus' Pauper Mono White ControlDeck: Sarutabaruta (or just call it Pauper Mono-W Control)
Format: MTGO Pauper Classic

Creatures
4 Order of Leitbur (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?id=159188)
3 Shade of Trokair (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=shade%20of%20trokair)
4 Noble Templar (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Noble%20Templar)

Instants
4 Judge Unworthy (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Judge%20Unworthy)
3 Dawn Charm (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Dawn%20Charm)
3 Holy Light (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Holy%20Light)
4 Fire at Will (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Fire%20at%20Will)
4 Unmake (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Unmake)

Sorceries
1 Cenn's Enlistment (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Cenn's%20Enlistment)

Enchantments
4 Oblivion Ring (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Oblivion%20Ring)
2 Faith's Fetters (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Faith's%20Fetters)

Lands
20 Plains
4 Secluded Steppe (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Secluded%20Steppe)

Sideboard
4 Circle of Protection: Red (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Circle%20of%20Protection:%20 Red)
1 Circle of Protection: Black (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=circle%20of%20protection:%20 black)
4 Kami of Ancient Law (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Kami%20of%20Ancient%20Law)
1 Holy Light (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Holy%20Light)
1 Cenn's Enlistment (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Cenn's%20Enlistment)
4 Relic of Progenitus (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Relic%20of%20Progenitus)

(Note: the circles of protection were common when printed in 7th edition, so they're legal for pauper.)

Anyway, I realized that most decks for pauper are creature-heavy, due to the lack of mass removal. So I built a deck designed to crush aggro strategies. I run a wealth of removal spells, some of which can earn card advantage. My creatures are few, but are versatile and are great both early and late game, oftentimes utilizing my excess mana to the fullest. The Kami of Ancient Law in the sideboard is mostly to switch in against creature-light decks as an early beater, or to replace Holy Light against white decks. I figure that if a deck is playing white, it's likely to be playing white enchantment-based removal like Oblivion Ring or Temporal Isolation, so the Kami would be great at keeping my other creatures clear of these answers.

What I'm still considering, though, is the removal suite. I like Fire at Will for its potential for card advantage, particularly against weenie swarms like Slivers. Unmake is also great simply for the lack of the attack/blocker clause. The Dawn Charms are there mostly for versatility, as I can usually think of a good use for it. I'm not sure if I should be maindecking the Holy Lights, though. So far, they've only been useful against pinger decks, Empty the Warrens, and certain elf builds. However, given that Storm may be one of the best pauper builds, Holy Light affords me with my best chance of trumping Empty the Warrens. But most of all, I'm debating Judge Unworthy. On one hand, having 8 removal spells that require attacking/blocking is kind of restrictive; on the other hand, it's my cheapest removal spell, and my only removal option for turn 2. The Scry is oftentimes a toss-up; getting rid of excess land is great, but I've had instances where I needed to draw another land, but can't put a land on top of my deck with Scry if I want to kill a creature. I guess Temporal Isolation is a possible substitute, but it's pretty lousy in the Silvers matchup, which is perhaps the most common deck played in the pauper casual room as of late.

I'm still debating whether Relic of Progenitus should be in the sideboard; perhaps I could use more aggro options to switch in against creature-light decks, even though those tend to be fewer in number for this format.


Mirrinus' Countersliver
Deck: Pauper UW Countersliver
Format: Extended Pauper

Creatures:
4 Azorius First-wing (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=97101)
4 Bant Sureblade (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=188975)
4 Deft Duelist (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=175121)
4 Ethercaste Knight (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=179542)
4 Esper Stormblade (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=188968)

Artifacts:
4 Fieldmist Borderpost (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=183005)

Enchantments:
4 Temporal Isolation (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=106654)

Instants:
4 Mana Tithe (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=122324)
4 Mana Leak (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=83160)
3 Remove Soul (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=129699)
3 Hindering Light (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=177598)

Lands:
4 Terramorphic Expanse (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=129881)
7 Island
7 Plains

Countersliver is a classic and effective Magic deck archetype that seeks to win by playing a few cheap, efficient threats to take the early game lead, then using permission and light removal elements to prevent the late-game from coming as you press your advantage. The archetype is named after the original version, which played Crystalline Sliver (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=5134) as its flagship creature.

Countersliver is a good example of an effective aggro-control deck. Your creatures are weaker than your opponent's best aggro creatures, and your removal and card advantage suite isn't nearly as strong as a dedicated control player's. What you do have, though, is tempo. You have superior early-game creatures to all but the best aggro decks, and you'll be shaving pieces off your opponent's life very quickly while trying to maintain your board advantage. Countersliver especially likes to prey on slower decks. Compare a Countersliver deck to a normal permission control deck. Against a mid-range deck, both are able to stall for several turns with their counterspells. However, while the permission deck is just buying time to play a big finisher, Countersliver will have a guy in play by turn 2, and attacking the opponent relentlessly while stalling for time. In other words, it has a tangible clock in play, which will likely win before the late-game hits.

Countersliver is normally weak against fast aggro decks with superior creatures. However, my personal build contains a few elements that help that matchup. First is the high number of first-striking creatures. Bant Sureblade and Deft Duelist make formidable blockers, easily dispatching lots of popular aggro creatures with high power but low toughness. Deft Duelist is also impossible to burn out of the way, making it a particularly impressive defender. Of course, both are also rather nasty on offense as well. Another nice card in the aggro matchup is Ethercaste Knight. 3 toughness means it can handle many early-game opposing creatures with ease, and it can lend power to my offense without ever having to tap. My favorite starting plays with this deck involve Esper Stormblade on turn 2, followed by Ethercaste Knight on turn 3 with one land up for Mana Tithe. I get to swing for 4 points of flying starting on turn 3, which can lead to a turn 7 win. With Ethercaste Knight blocking on the ground and a slew of countermagic and removal, I'm likely to win a damage race with just those two creatures.

The key to playing this deck is to not overextend with your creatures, and to keep mana open for counters available as often as possible, even if you aren't actually holding a counter. Exalted lets you finish games quickly without having to play many additional creatures. I prefer my fliers for attacking while keeping the first strikers back for defense to win the damage race against aggro. Of course, if you have a clear creature advantage, by all means attack en masse! Just be sure to have countermagic on hand in case they drop a big creature or removal spell. The good thing about this deck is that practically every single spell costs just 2 mana or less (I don't count the borderposts, as I usually pay their alternate cost), which means by turn 4 you can feasibly drop another threat and still have Mana Leak or Remove Soul ready. The deck desperately wants to hit UW by turn 2 (an opening hand that can't do this should be mulliganed), but with 4 Terramorphic Expanses and 4 Borderposts, that shouldn't be too hard to do, at least in my testing thus far.

If you want a sideboard, I would recommend trying out Steel of the Godhead (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=158749). Against decks light on removal but heavy on aggro, this card is a total beating that almost ensures victory in the damage race. Just keep in mind that you can't enchant your Azorius First-wings or Deft Duelists. In such a matchups where I'd want Steel of the Godhead, such as against aggressive red decks, I'd probably swap out the griffins for Vedalken Outlander (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=185141).


Shas'aia Toriia's Orzhov Control
Creatures (13)
4x Divinity of Pride (http://magiccards.info/eve/en/86.html)
4x Graveborn Muse (http://magiccards.info/10e/en/145.html)
2x Shimian Specter (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/76.html)
3x Oriss, Samite Guardian (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/28.html)

Artifacts (1)
1x Sword of Light and Shadow (http://magiccards.info/ds/en/149.html)

Instants (4)
4x Mortify (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/28.html)

Planeswalkers (2)
2x Liliana Vess (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/121.html)

Sorceries (16)
4x Demonic Tutor (http://magiccards.info/al/en/13.html)
4x Vindicate (http://magiccards.info/ap/en/126.html) (substituting in a couple Oblivion Rings (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/34.html)until I can afford a playset)
4x Gerrard's Verdict (http://magiccards.info/fnmp/en/82.html)
2x Wrath of God (http://magiccards.info/10e/en/61.html)
2x Damnation (http://magiccards.info/pc/en/85.html)

Land (24)
4x Godless Shrine (http://magiccards.info/gp/en/157.html)
4x Fetid Heath (http://magiccards.info/eve/en/176.html)
4x Caves of Koilos (http://magiccards.info/10e/en/350.html)
1x Shizo, Death's Storehouse (http://magiccards.info/chk/en/283.html)
1x Eiganjo Castle (http://magiccards.info/chk/en/275.html)
2x Orzhova, Church of Deals (http://magiccards.info/gp/en/162.html)
3x Flagstones of Trokair (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/272.html)
2x Forbidding Watchtower (http://magiccards.info/10e/en/352.html)
2x Swamp (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/238.html)
1x Plains (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/283.html)

To start off with this deck, you want to either strip their hand away with Gerrard's Veridct or search for something good with Demonic Tutor. Once you have Graveborn muse in play, just start accumalating card advantage. If they try to attack, prevent the damage with Oriss, or block with Forbidding Watchtower. Finish off the game with Liliana Vess or Divinity of Pride. Above all, though, don't be afraid to Wrath often. With 4 wrath effects and 6 tutors, you can always get more.

Lastly, there is a soft lock in this deck. See if you can find what it is. :smallamused:



MountainKing's UBR Elemental Shenanigans:

Creatures:
Supreme Exemplar (http://magiccards.info/mt/en/53.html) x2
Mulldrifter (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/76.html) x3
Mournwhelk (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/127.html) x3
Shriekmaw (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/139.html) x3
Spitebellows (http://magiccards.info/mt/en/105.html) x3
Inner-Flame Acolyte (http://magiccards.info/jvc/en/41.html) x3
Stingscourger (http://magiccards.info/pc/en/107.html) x3

Artifacts:
Proteus Staff (http://magiccards.info/mi/en/230.html) x3
Cauldron of Souls (http://magiccards.info/shm/en/248.html) x3
Cloudstone Curio (http://magiccards.info/rav/en/257.html) x3
Armillary Sphere (http://magiccards.info/cfx/en/134.html) x3

Sorceries:
Heat Shimmer (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/175.html) x2

Instants:
Peel from Reality (http://magiccards.info/rav/en/61.html) x2
Turn to Mist (http://magiccards.info/shm/en/155.html) x4

Lands:
Basic Swamp x6
Basic Mountain x7
Basic Island x7

Sideboard (aka the Experiment Pile):
Thrumming Stone (http://magiccards.info/cs/en/142.html)
Coalition Relic (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/161.html)
Cruel Ultimatum (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/164.html) x3
River Kelpie (http://magiccards.info/shm/en/49.html) x2
Heat Shimmer
Mana Echoes (http://magiccards.info/on/en/218.html) x2
Dawn of the Dead (http://magiccards.info/tr/en/59.html)
Tar Fiend (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/89.html) x2
Footbottom Feast (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/115.html) x3

The basic premise of the deck is to use the triggered come into play or leaves play effects on creatures, repeatedly, in order to bring about an effective soft lock on the game through denial. This is achieved through taking two keywords abilities (Evoke and Persist)... and breaking them soundly over your knee.

The core of the deck is the interaction between Cauldron of Souls (the only card in the deck that gives creatures Persist) and Elemental creatures with Evoke alternative casting costs. In response to the Evoke's triggered effect, you tap Cauldron of Souls to give the Evoked creature Persist. It leaves play, then returns to play, causing its triggered come into play ability to go on the stack a second time, for no additional mana cost.

Example: If I evoke a Mulldrifter for 2U, when it comes into play, I draw two cards. Since I paid the Evoke cost, the triggered effect goes on the stack. I give it Persist via Cauldron of Souls, and when it comes into play a second time, I draw two more cards.

Example 2: The interaction between Spitebellows and Cauldron of Souls is fundamentally the same, except that the creature's ability triggers when it leaves play, rather than comes into play. However, when Persist brings Spitebellows back into play, it has a zero toughness courtesy of its -1/-1 counter from Persist, sending it cheerfully back to the graveyard a second time, allowing for either 12 damage to be done to one creature, or 6 damage to be done to two separate creatures.

The typical play of the deck leaves it feeling like its ramping a little slowly. Turns 1-5, you'll probably only have played an Armillary Sphere, Cloudstone Curio, Cauldron of Souls, and land. ***NOTE*** This deck likes its mana, and digging up lands with the Armillary Sphere is crucial.

Once turn 6 hits, however, you'll be causing some serious hurt, having surprisingly rapid, effective tools at your disposal during your turn. Mournwhelk empties your opponent's hand, Shriekmaw and Spitebellows tear down your opponent's creatures, while Stingscourger stalls out their creatures. Supreme Exemplar is the only huge beater in the deck, though clearing the opposing board, casting a Spitebellows (not Evoking), and then giving it +2/+0 and Haste via Inner-Flame Acolyte (if not +4/+0) can give you a suitable beater as well. Otherwise, your damage comes from lightweight, evasive creatures like Shriekmaw and Mulldrifter.

This deck isn't especially meant to play against terribly competitive players, but it *can* perform against moderately fast decks. The difference is that it moves slightly slower, and loses out on creatures, because instead of holding on to your Evoke creatures, you'll be playing them in to deal with threats on board. I've got a list of cards that I personally intend to use to tinker with the deck even further, but I'll leave the deck *as is* for the purpose of posting it. I want people to be able to tinker with it, and the deck *does* work well in its current form.

The deck also has a number of specific weaknesses, none of which should be terribly worried about. It's meant to be a fun deck... for you. It won't be fun for them. :smallbiggrin:


Maho-Tsukai's The Black Plague, a deck for multiplayer
Deck:
Lands:
3x Cabal Coffers (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=205421)
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=131005)
20x Swamp (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=259283)

Creatures:
2x Pestilence Demon (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=193431)
4x Stuffy Doll (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=116724)
4x Cemetary Gate (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=2914)
4x Reassembling Skeleton (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=226565)

Enchantments:
4x Pestilence (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=21149)
4x Circle of Affliction (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=126803)

Sorceries/Instants:
2x Consume Spirit (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=244249)
4x Diabolic Tutor (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=221519)
1x Demonic Tutor (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=202628)
2x Bubbling Muck (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=15179)
4x Dark Ritual (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=221510)
1x Culling the Weak (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=6085)

Description:
This is one deck that will make you absolutely hated in multiplayer. It's a mono-black deck that focuses on using the combination of Pestilence + Circle of Affliction (set to Black) to lock down the game by wiping the board every turn and kill your opponent(s) all at the same time.

This deck acts very similar to the old school W/B decks that pared Pestilence with Circle of Protection: Black and Pro Black creatures like White Knight. However, due to the printing of cards like Reassembling Skeleton, Stuffy Doll and Circle of Affliction white this deck no longer needs white to run properly. Mono Black now has enough cards to emulate the white cards that this kind of deck used to rely on and by using only black you have more mana to pour into your main win condition, pestilence

As for how the deck should be played, it's really a combination of combo and control, leaning heavily towards combo. As stated before, pestilence is your main wincon, as it can burn all players for damage continually. However, to prevent your own death, circle of affliction(set to black) is used in tandem with pestilence, the one life gained offsetting the burn from pestilence, while burning your opponent more in the process. As a result you goal should be to assemble this combo as soon as possible, using your defensively-minded creatures and removal from pestilence itself and twin consume spirits to stall out while you use your various tutors to assemble all the cards you need.

The real beauty of this deck, though, is that pestilence also hits all creatures, meaning that each time you burn your opponent your also wiping his board clean of threats, essentially locking down any deck that tries to win with creatures. However, pestilence dies when you have no creatures, so you have to play creatures that can survive the enchantment. Cemetery Gate has protection from black. Reassembling Skeleton can revive himself after pestilence wipes him off the board. Stuffy Doll is indestructible....and as mentioned before all of them are strong defensive walls that can stall for time if you don't have a pestilence in play.

As for the rest of the cards, most of them are devoted to gaining tons of black mana that can be poured into pestilence. One thing this deck tries to do is maximizing Pestilence by providing lots of ways to gain extra mana to pour into it. Dark Ritual is an old standby that's great for this kind of deck while bubbling muck essentially doubles your mana for a turn. This deck features the infamous all-star of black mana gain, Cabal Coffers which can make ridiculous amounts of mana, and Urborg makes this even more ridiculous. Culling the Weak is like a stronger dark ritual with a drawback....that happens to play well with Reassembling Skeleton.

Consume Spirit provides a "finisher" as well as a way to pad your life from the times you may have had to use pestilence to wipe the board without a circle of affliction to prevent it's self-burn. It can also double as removal in a pinch, too. Also, if you find that you just need something really big and scary to beat face with, Pestilence demon comes ready to serve you, and can double as pestilence #5-6 too.

The main thing you should remember in this deck is that while the combo is nice, you should not be a slave to it. If you have a pestilence in play but no circle you should not be afraid to wipe the board and eat some damage yourself. Losing a bit of life to end the thread of a creature hoard coming your way is a worthwhile trade, and one that could save your life in the long run.

Please include lots of info on how to play the deck so that others can partake in the fun that is whatever deck you have destroyed the Multiverse with or help suggest other cards to increase the awesomeness contained in your 60 (or more) cards.
Also, it should be noted that this list was maintained by Squark, tgva, and Johnny Blade before Shas and Duos.
Also, if anyone wants to drop/update any of these decks, let me know.

[tgva8889]

Past topics since the first post takes up too much space:
Magic: the Gathering (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84019)
Magic: the Gathering II - Planeswalkers in the Playground - (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111185)
Magic: the Gathering III - These Planes Are Made For Walkin' (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119615)
Magic: the Gathering IV: "Burn, Mana, Burn" as they used to say (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125812)
Magic: the Gathering V: Ophidians on a Plane (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7739504#post7739504)
Magic: the Gathering VI: This Thread Dies to Removal (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149503)
Magic: The Gathering VII: Thopter? I Barely Knew'er! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=162760)
Magic: The Gathering VIII: We Should have a Mythic By Now (http://http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9816150#post9816150)
Magic: The Gathering IX: Gone Through Lotus of Threads Already! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10530604#post10530604)
Magic: the Gathering X: Deal X damage to target thread. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=203392)
Magic: the Gathering XI: When this thread has 50 or more pages, transform it. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214460)
Magic: the Gathering XII: Vote Nicol Bolas for 2012! Discard their hands! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=226485)Magic: The Gathering XIII: What A Horrible Night To Have An Enchantment- Curse (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=237298)


List of MtG-related websites put together by Johnny Blades and others:
The official site. (http://www.wizards.com/magic/) From here you can reach:
The page for Magic Online (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnline.aspx), if you want to give it a try. Note that, while you have to pay/trade for cards, there are bots who give them away for free. I don't have any experience with this, but there are people posting in this thread that do.
The DCI (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dci/welcome), for organized play.
Gatherer (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Default.aspx), WotC's card search.

magiccards.info (http://magiccards.info/), another place to waste lots of time browsing through cards. It doesn't have the user ratings and comments of Gatherer, but lists the prices of several online vendors and, surprisingly, has more card images. The interface is also better in my opinion.

MTGSalvation (http://www.mtgsalvation.com/). That place has a lot of stuff, including a wiki, a huge forum, and many articles of varying quality. They also spoil all the cards of the next set well in advance, so this is where we'll usually get future cards from.

StarCityGames (http://www.starcitygames.com/) - they make you pay for much of their newer content, but what you can get for free is certainly good enough.

ChannelFireball.com (http://www.channelfireball.com/), where you can hear LSV and Conley Woods (among others) discuss Magic. Many articles and draft videos from the pros are posted here for free. You can also buy cards from this website.

Elder Dragon Highlander (http://www.dragonhighlander.net/rules.php), the official page. Always up to date and it has a forum about this popular variant multiplayer format as well. If you want to learn even more about the format, go here!

Le Bestiaire (http://draft.bestiaire.org/), an online draft simulator. It gives you some pretty odd ratings sometimes, but at least there is actual feedback.

Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com/), a program for...a lot of things, including collection management and online play. Supports more TCGs than just Magic. There's a freeware version available.

Cockatrice (http://cockatrice.de/), an other program for over-the-web Magic playing for no cost. Also has card images built in. Generally updates pretty frequently.

TC Decks (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/), where you can see which decks have tournament success. The decks are essentially named by the people who play them, and if you're looking for, say, Legacy decks, you'll soon find out that not all tournaments are really at Pro Tour level, but this is still an invaluable site for anyone who wants to keep up with the tournament scene.

Magic: the Gathering Source Forums (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/), which is great for people looking into legacy.

The Mana Drain (http://www.themanadrain.com/), more forums, this time for people looking into Vintage.

Tapped Out (http://www.tappedout.net/), a deck building and critique community. Build any number of decks and put them up for review/critique/comment/display. Or, keep them private. They also have pretty graphic representations of your mana curve, colour costs and colour generation.

http://www.highlandermagic.info/ The site for German Rules highlander. It's a 100-card singleton format, but the rules are rather different from EDH. They're more in line with the normal rules, and the banlist is made with a more competitive mindset in mind.

http://deckstats.net/ Calculates mana curve, compares color spread to manabase colors, calculates prices for the deck as well as some other functions. It can handle MWSDeck files and can also save decks pasted into it in the format.
GITP Magicgroup play-by-post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=181087)

Card Design Challenge Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=233854)

Requested: A short commentary on sorting your deck, by tgva8889:
When building a deck, sorting your cards is very important. While the following advice applies mainly to Highlander formats (specifically Commander), you may find it useful in other formats.

The largest problem I’ve observed in deckbuilding is cutting cards. We all know that you have the best odds when you play the smallest number of cards. The difference may seem small, but every difference matters. When you’re trying to remove cards from your deck, you are trying to find the cards you don’t need. However, if your methods of sorting are inefficient, it’s very hard to see what exactly you “don’t need” in your list. I mean, looking at a random pile of 80 cards, which 20 cards don’t you need? You couldn’t know without knowing some aspect of those cards. Sorting allows you to classify your cards by some useful characteristic, so that you can tell whether or not you do have parts that are in excess of what you need or cards that you actually just don’t need.

While there are many methods of sorting, I think the first method of sorting everyone is most familiar with is Type Sorting. This is where you sort your deck list by whatever card types you happen to have. The most common is Land, Creatures, and Non-Creatures. While it is a useful rudimentary step, this form of sorting is fundamentally flawed. Most of the time, this doesn’t help you. For example, let’s take two cards that share a type: Sakura-Tribe Elder (”http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247176”) and Woodfall Primus (”http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=151987”). Now, obviously these are both Green creatures. But that’s where the similarity ends. One of these cards is a land-accelerator only pretending to be a creature for long enough to block, while the other is a huge 6/6 that eats a permanent. These things are not very similar. However, a sort by Card Type puts these cards in the same classification category. On the other side, Flame Slash (”http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=193648”) and Flametongue Kavu (”http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247368”) don’t share a card type, but it’s hard to deny you wouldn’t use both to kill creatures given the option. These cards would be in totally different parts of your list, though!

It is much easier to see a flaw if cards are sorted in a different manner. The manner that I suggest is the Function Sort. Sort all your cards by their intended function in your deck. For example, Sakura-Tribe Elder is a card you play for Mana Acceleration, so I sort it into the Mana Acceleration section. Woodfall Primus ends up in my Kills Non-Creatures secton. Both Flame Slash and Flametongue Kavu end up in my Kills Creatures section. This method allows you to see the cards by the purpose they serve in your deck, rather than by an arbitrary category. (You could sort your Lands this way, too, but I consider “Land” to be a Function, as lands are very special cards.) Some example categories pretty much every deck should be considering:
Win Conditions
Mana Acceleration/Fixing
Card Drawing
Library Manipulation
Kills Creatures
Kills Non-Creatures
Kills Lots of Stuff (Wraths)

Now, you can also condense those categories if you want. For example, “Kills Creatures” and “Kills Non-Creatures” could just be listed as “Kills Stuff” if it’s not really significant that you have a certain spread.

(I’ll add an example, but this is the bare-bones of the suggestion.)


Also, please let us know if you want something in the first post added, edited or removed.

[Mystic Muse]

So, I think I'm going to the M13 Pre-release, but I've never been to one. What should I know about pre-releases so I'm not walking in there blind?

[IthilanorStPete]

So, I think I'm going to the M13 Pre-release, but I've never been to one. What should I know about pre-releases so I'm not walking in there blind?

You're in luck! The M13 prerelease primer (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/202) just went up on dailymtg.

[Mystic Muse]

Alright, so I make one deck out of my grand total of 75 from the booster packs I'll open (Plus the basic lands I'm assuming you're provided with), and you get to keep all 75 cards once you leave, correct?

[IthilanorStPete]

Alright, so I make one deck out of my grand total of 75 from the booster packs I'll open (Plus the basic lands I'm assuming you're provided with), and you get to keep all 75 cards once you leave, correct?

Yes. Note that the deck you make is 40 cards minimum, not 60.

[Mystic Muse]

Yes. Note that the deck you make is 40 cards minimum, not 60.

Yeah, I noticed that. Glad that's the case, because I don't think I'd be able to make a decent 60 card deck with 75 random cards.

[tgva8889]

Hints for you: Making a decent 60-card deck out of 200 random cards is difficult, let alone 84 (6 packs of 15 cards, -6 basic lands)

Keys to success at the Prerelease (or really any Sealed Deck event):

1) Set out all your cards sorted by color (with artifacts separate). Then, sort each color first by creatures vs. non-creatures, then by converted mana cost. This will help you look at your colors to decide which one you want to play.
2) Also take note of any of your really powerful Mythic Rares (these have an orange rarity symbol), Rares, and Uncommons. And Commons, too, but most Commons aren't really powerful unless something is wrong with the format. You'll know if you have a really powerful rare. You want to try really really hard to play as many such powerful cards as possible in your deck.
3) Try to play 2 colors. Other people may suggest you play more or less, but if you're just learning, stick to 2 colors. It will probably work out better for you as a learning point.
4) Don't play more than 40 cards. It's almost never worth it.
5) DON'T put the prerelease foil card into your deck. The judges and people running the event don't like when you do this, and they will tell you so. So don't do it.

[Mystic Muse]

5) DON'T put the prerelease foil card into your deck. The judges and people running the event don't like when you do this, and they will tell you so. So don't do it.

I'm guessing because it's against the rules due to it not being one of the cards you opened in your packs?

And if the pre-release Promo is what it seems to be

Xathrid Gorgon

I don't think I'd want it in my deck anyway.

[IthilanorStPete]

I'm guessing because it's against the rules due to it not being one of the cards you opened in your packs?

And if the pre-release Promo is what it seems to be

Xathrid Gorgon

I don't think I'd want it in my deck anyway.

Correct. And yes, you would; it's slow, but stopping nearly any attacker is good.

[Mystic Muse]

Correct. And yes, you would; it's slow, but stopping nearly any attacker is good.

I'll keep that in mind for when I'm building my deck (While being sure not to use the pre-release version, only if I open it in a pack).

[IthilanorStPete]

The thing is, naturally, the power level of your cards is going to be a lot lower than in Constructed. Something like Divine Verdict (http://magiccards.info/query?q=!Divine+Verdict) would never see Constructed play, but it's at least playable in Limited, because removal is scarce.

[Mystic Muse]

Random thoughts about Infect since it's rotating out of standard soon and at my local FNM it seems to make you "That Guy" with everybody else. After mulling it over a little, I do have one major complaint about Infect, though it's not the same kind that most people have. (Well, two, but that's because I despise cards with Unblockable as an inherent ability anyway, and I'm mostly talking about people I've met at my Local FNM).


It's hard to use in anything but a dedicated deck, and even then some colors are really bad with it. I mean, there's all of 3 cards with Infect in red, There's only 4 in white, and there's 4 in Blue.

Now, let's go over to Black and Green. There's 14 cards with infect in green, and 15 in black, plus a few others to give other creatures infect or put creatures into play with infect.

The only real saving grace for other decks is the artifact cards with infect, but even that won't help much.

I wouldn't mind so much if other colors got a little something to make it more even, since I think you should reasonably be able to make a Praetor deck with Infect (So, White Elesh Norn deck with creatures with Infect, Red Urubrask, ETC.) but the only ones that's really practical for would be Vorinclex and Sheoldred, and neither of those comes with Infect so it's a bad idea then too.

I'd have liked something like Wither more, or if they came with Poisonous X so that cards were more easily usable in other deck types besides Infect. I'd like to be able to use Skithiryx or Phyrexian Crusader in a non-infect deck without having Melira out.

Anybody else have thoughts on mechanics that are going to be rotating out of standard?

[Lord Seth]

Do you think it's worth putting in Phyrexian Revokers in the sideboard of a UW Delver deck to deal with Venser Control?

[tgva8889]

Is Venser Control actually a major problem for UW Delver? I don't really know what's good these days or what plays well against what. If it is... eh, I don't know that Phyrexian Revoker is really good enough to do what you want, but it's worth a try, at least. The real question is what are you sideboarding out?

[Zombimode]

So, the full M13 set has been spoiled.
There is one card that immediately cached my interest:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=132888&d=1341202144
A 2/2 for 1 at instant speed is nice, but the fact that it can target creatures in any graveyard makes for great utility.
"So, you wanna reanimate Griselbrand? Nope, I get a 2/2 instead."
"Undying/persist, eh? Nope, 2/2 zombie for me."
"Bloodghast/Ichorid? Not today!"

Love it! :smallsmile:

[Litewarior]

One thing I noticed was a distinct lack of Birds of Paradise.

[tgva8889]

Well, there are Birds of Paradise on Ravnica. I'm sure you can wait the 0 seconds it won't be legal in Standard if it returns in Return to Ravnica. Otherwise, I guess you'll have to handle playing some other cards in Standard.

I really like Vile Rebirth. A lot. It's a great, flavorful option that adds something unique to a Zombie deck of any kind while providing a nice way to counter some of the graveyard shenanigans that might occur. We do lose both Surgical Extraction and Nihil Spellbomb, so it's nice to know that they gave us Vile Rebirth and Tormod's Crypt to provide some graveyard hate options.

Constructed Sleeper so far: Quirion Dryad. This card is absurd with Snapcaster Mage, and with the coming tide of multicolored cards, Quirion Dryad might prove to be a powerful addition to RtR Standard. I'd keep an eye on this one. Honorable Mention: Slumbering Dragon. I mean, come on, it's actually asleep.

Also nice to see Silklash Spider once again in a Core set. Silklash Spider is an old favorite of mine, and I can't wait to get the chance to slot it into a few sideboards.

And now time to go work on my Trading Post deck list.

[Binks]

It's hard to use in anything but a dedicated deck, and even then some colors are really bad with it. I mean, there's all of 3 cards with Infect in red, There's only 4 in white, and there's 4 in Blue.

Now, let's go over to Black and Green. There's 14 cards with infect in green, and 15 in black, plus a few others to give other creatures infect or put creatures into play with infect.

The only real saving grace for other decks is the artifact cards with infect, but even that won't help much.
White/Black Infect is perfectly playable, as is Red infect. Neither are tournament level (but then again no infect has really turned out to be tournament level) but they work just fine for casual play. Proliferate is what makes them playable. You're not playing 3 red infect cards, you're playing 3 red infect cards, 1 red proliferate, 3 artifact proliferate, and some artifact infect.

It's shallow, but given how much hate infect has managed to acquire through no fault of its own it's probably for the best that there are so few cards. I would love to see more infect cards hanging around so it would actually be reasonable to play them, but since my infect decks have already been banned by my casual playgroup (despite netting 0 wins...yeah) it's unlikely printing more would have made more people like them.

And skittles can easily be put in a non-infect deck. He's a 5 cost 4/4 flier with wither and regenerate who only needs to hit your opponent 3 times to win you the game. His damage doesn't stack with your other creatures, but that's a pretty small price to pay for what he does (block Avacyn then regenerate :P)

[Androgeus]

Just a small thing tgva, first post says this is the 13th thread when it is the 14th :smalltongue:

[Lord Seth]

Is Venser Control actually a major problem for UW Delver?It is when Stonehorn Dignitary and Venser are in play together and you can't attack at all (despite having a Geist equipped with a Sword) and can't do anything but watch your opponent buff up their Vensers/Tamiyos until they hit their ultimates and become essentially unbeatable.

To be fair, I didn't exactly lose to it, the game got stopped on time in the middle of the third game, but by that time they had hit me with Venser and Stonehorn Dignitary. I looked at my library and eventually would've gotten an Oblivion Ring, though at that point it might have been impossible to come back. Still, Phyrexian Revoker shuts down the combo and can be used to hurt other planeswalkers also.
Random thoughts about Infect since it's rotating out of standard soon and at my local FNM it seems to make you "That Guy" with everybody else. After mulling it over a little, I do have one major complaint about Infect, though it's not the same kind that most people have. (Well, two, but that's because I despise cards with Unblockable as an inherent ability anyway, and I'm mostly talking about people I've met at my Local FNM).


It's hard to use in anything but a dedicated deck, and even then some colors are really bad with it. I mean, there's all of 3 cards with Infect in red, There's only 4 in white, and there's 4 in Blue.

Now, let's go over to Black and Green. There's 14 cards with infect in green, and 15 in black, plus a few others to give other creatures infect or put creatures into play with infect.

The only real saving grace for other decks is the artifact cards with infect, but even that won't help much.

I wouldn't mind so much if other colors got a little something to make it more even, since I think you should reasonably be able to make a Praetor deck with Infect (So, White Elesh Norn deck with creatures with Infect, Red Urubrask, ETC.) but the only ones that's really practical for would be Vorinclex and Sheoldred, and neither of those comes with Infect so it's a bad idea then too.

I'd have liked something like Wither more, or if they came with Poisonous X so that cards were more easily usable in other deck types besides Infect. I'd like to be able to use Skithiryx or Phyrexian Crusader in a non-infect deck without having Melira out.

Anybody else have thoughts on mechanics that are going to be rotating out of standard?I'm surprised people would dislike Infect so much, considering it's not really that competitive.

Though I'm not sure how much the rotating out of the Scars of Mirrodin block will affect Standard, considering the biggest current decks can probably reasonably adapt. For example, sure, Delver decks lose the Swords, but a lot of them already play Runechanter's Pike instead. Birthing Pod is out, but they can be reconfigured into Ramp decks. The duals are gone, but Return to Ravnica is almost certainly going to have lands to replace them with. Venser Control is obviously going to take a major hit, though.

I don't think any of the actual mechanics rotating out will make much of a difference. Some individual cards will, though. Birthing Pod decks are on their way out, though to be fair they can be reconfigured into a Ramp deck--heck, if you don't get a Birthing Pod then a Birthing Pod deck essentially is a weakened Ramp deck. Other than that, the other major deck types seem like they'll be able to stick around. Sure, Delver might lose the swords, but half of Delver decks are playing Runechanter's Pike instead anyway (I play Runechanter's Pike mainboard and put the Swords in the sideboard). Though I do wonder what Solar Flare will do now that they've lost Elesh Norn. They might turn to Avacyn. It'll really depend on what Return to Ravnica offers.

[IthilanorStPete]

It is when Stonehorn Dignitary and Venser are in play together and you can't attack at all (despite having a Geist equipped with a Sword) and can't do anything but watch your opponent buff up their Vensers/Tamiyos until they hit their ultimates and become essentially unbeatable.

To be fair, I didn't exactly lose to it, the game got stopped on time in the middle of the third game, but by that time they had hit me with Venser and Stonehorn Dignitary. I looked at my library and eventually would've gotten an Oblivion Ring, though at that point it might have been impossible to come back. Still, Phyrexian Revoker shuts down the combo and can be used to hurt other planeswalkers also.I'm surprised people would dislike Infect so much, considering it's not really that competitive.

Why are you letting them get to that point, though? You have Mana Leaks and other disruption for a reason...


Though I'm not sure how much the rotating out of the Scars of Mirrodin block will affect Standard, considering the biggest current decks can probably reasonably adapt. For example, sure, Delver decks lose the Swords, but a lot of them already play Runechanter's Pike instead.

Remember, M12 will be rotating out as well. Delver loses Ponder and Mana Leak, which are huge, as well as Gitaxian Probe. To exist post-rotation, there needs to be another good cheap cantrip, and given the problem's Ponder's caused, I don't see that happening.


Birthing Pod is out, but they can be reconfigured into Ramp decks. The duals are gone, but Return to Ravnica is almost certainly going to have lands to replace them with. Venser Control is obviously going to take a major hit, though.

I don't think any of the actual mechanics rotating out will make much of a difference. Some individual cards will, though. Birthing Pod decks are on their way out, though to be fair they can be reconfigured into a Ramp deck--heck, if you don't get a Birthing Pod then a Birthing Pod deck essentially is a weakened Ramp deck.

No, a Pod deck is a reworked aggro deck with a bit of a midrange plan. (How much depends on the build) Look at the Naya Pod or Zombie Pod decks that've been doing well recently.


Other than that, the other major deck types seem like they'll be able to stick around. Sure, Delver might lose the swords, but half of Delver decks are playing Runechanter's Pike instead anyway (I play Runechanter's Pike mainboard and put the Swords in the sideboard). Though I do wonder what Solar Flare will do now that they've lost Elesh Norn. They might turn to Avacyn. It'll really depend on what Return to Ravnica offers.

Last I checked Solar Flare hasn't done well in a while. Even the straight Esper control decks have shifted away from Elesh Norn. Given the weakening/death of Delver, though, there'll be more of a niche for proper control decks to come back in.

[Lord Seth]

Why are you letting them get to that point, though? You have Mana Leaks and other disruption for a reason...Because you don't always get enough disruption to stop it and you don't always have the mana to cast Mana Leak. This isn't Legacy, where I can always Force of Will.


Remember, M12 will be rotating out as well. Delver loses Ponder and Mana Leak, which are huge, as well as Gitaxian Probe. To exist post-rotation, there needs to be another good cheap cantrip, and given the problem's Ponder's caused, I don't see that happening.There's a fairly easy Ponder replacement in Magic 2013 (maybe not as good overall, but does still help Delver in terms of the "reorder your library" department). As for another cheap cantrip, there is always Think Twice...or maybe even Fleeting Distraction.

I think you may be overestimating the importance of Mana Leak. A lot of Delver decks have dropped to three (presumably because of Cavern of Souls). It's not like there aren't new or already-existing counterspells that can take its place.


No, a Pod deck is a reworked aggro deck with a bit of a midrange plan. (How much depends on the build) Look at the Naya Pod or Zombie Pod decks that've been doing well recently.I was trying to say they could be reworked into Ramp/Aggro decks. That is, you don't have to ditch the deck entirely.


Last I checked Solar Flare hasn't done well in a while.How long is "in a while"? It got first place at SCG Worcester, which was less than a month ago. It also got a Top 8 at SCG Indianapolis, which was mid-June.

[Sith_Happens]

So, the full M13 set has been spoiled.
There is one card that immediately cached my interest:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=132888&d=1341202144
A 2/2 for 1 at instant speed is nice, but the fact that it can target creatures in any graveyard makes for great utility.
"So, you wanna reanimate Griselbrand? Nope, I get a 2/2 instead."
"Undying/persist, eh? Nope, 2/2 zombie for me."
"Bloodghast/Ichorid? Not today!"

Love it! :smallsmile:


I really like Vile Rebirth. A lot. It's a great, flavorful option that adds something unique to a Zombie deck of any kind while providing a nice way to counter some of the graveyard shenanigans that might occur. We do lose both Surgical Extraction and Nihil Spellbomb, so it's nice to know that they gave us Vile Rebirth and Tormod's Crypt to provide some graveyard hate options.

Oh yes, there are just so many things you can do with it. And at worst, it's still a 2/2 for 1 you can probably get out by turn three at the latest with or against the right deck (which is a lot of them). Personally, I think Vile Rebirth is going to be one of the star commons of the set.


Also nice to see Silklash Spider once again in a Core set. Silklash Spider is an old favorite of mine, and I can't wait to get the chance to slot it into a few sideboards.

I used to use Silklash Spider years and years ago, and it was definitely one of my absolute favorite creatures. Seeing it back makes me incredibly happy just for nostalgia's sake.:smallbiggrin:

[tgva8889]

There's a fairly easy Ponder replacement in Magic 2013 (maybe not as good overall, but does still help Delver in terms of the "reorder your library" department). As for another cheap cantrip, there is always Think Twice...or maybe even Fleeting Distraction.

I think you may be overestimating the importance of Mana Leak. A lot of Delver decks have dropped to three (presumably because of Cavern of Souls). It's not like there aren't new or already-existing counterspells that can take its place.

The thing that changes about Delver is the value of Snapcaster Mage and the number of lands you can play. Lists that play 19 lands are going to be very difficult if you replace Probe and Ponder with Index and Fleeting Distraction because not only won't you be able to as reliably find the lands you need, but your overall mana requirements will increase. Replacing Probe with another cantrip also hurts because seeing your opponent's hand in a deck with so many decisions as Delver is actually a significant benefit.

The replacement is far from easy: Index is just terrible. While I have no illusions that if Delver is the best thing you can do people won't play it, it's a very bad card in most situations. It is, however, better than Ponder if all you want to do is stack your deck. But stacking the top 5 cards of your deck isn't an effect that's usually worth a card.

Delver also loses access to the variety of spell effects they get out of Phyrexian Mana spells. Specifically losing Dismember and Gut Shot is no small loss. Gut Shot was important for Delver to fight decks reliant on mana creatures and gave Delver something useful to do against Thalia. Dismember gave Delver a way to actually kill larger creatures like Restoration Angel that are now much more of a problem. And these effects went extremely far with access to Snapcaster Mage.

The deck might still exist, but it will be much weaker than it was before unless Return to Ravnica gives it a gift.

[Lord Seth]

The replacement is far from easy: Index is just terrible. While I have no illusions that if Delver is the best thing you can do people won't play it, it's a very bad card in most situations. It is, however, better than Ponder if all you want to do is stack your deck. But stacking the top 5 cards of your deck isn't an effect that's usually worth a card.I don't think Index is that bad. But I do think it's probable that people will replace Ponder with Index.


Delver also loses access to the variety of spell effects they get out of Phyrexian Mana spells. Specifically losing Dismember and Gut Shot is no small loss. Gut Shot was important for Delver to fight decks reliant on mana creatures and gave Delver something useful to do against Thalia. Dismember gave Delver a way to actually kill larger creatures like Restoration Angel that are now much more of a problem. And these effects went extremely far with access to Snapcaster Mage.Whoops, I was so busy thinking about Gitaxian Probe that I forgot about the other Phyrexian mana spells. That does make me wonder if it might shift to UB Delver or UR Delver for better creature removal.

[tgva8889]

I've played with Index. It's pretty bad. For context, imagine if Ponder didn't draw you a card. Index is pretty close to that, except you can't shuffle if the cards you see are absolutely miserable. Instead, you get to see 2 more cards.

UR will probably be a better choice, since you don't have a good 2-mana Black removal spell unless we get one in RtR. RtR might change the equation, though, since come on it's no spoiler that Return to Ravnica will be a multicolor block.

[Sith_Happens]

since come on it's no spoiler that Return to Ravnica will be a multicolor block.

Unless that's what they want us to think, and they're actually making it a monocolor block just to screw with us.:eek:

----------------

EDIT: I finally put the cards together for my sacrifice deck and just got done goldfishing a bunch of hands. I like what I'm seeing so far; it's a bit slow the first few turns, but then suddenly picks up and can easily get a ridiculous board presence and/or a ton of damage by around turn five. In fact, on one hand I casted Carrion Feeder and Blood Artist turn three and managed to get four +1/+1 counters and three BA triggers before that turn was finished.

Over the next day or two I just need to play around with various tweaks to the list and, more importantly, play some actual games (preferably against other people, but I do have two other decks I could play against myself) to see what happens when someone, for instance, starts blocking Bloodghast and/or trying to keep my Feeders and Artists off the board.

Also, I had an interesting idea: Instead of equipment, what about splashing green for Rancor? With the eight fetches I'm already using, all I'd need is one or two Overgrown Tombs and the Rancors themselves.

[MechaKingGhidra]

I am VERY disappointed. Phyrexian Hulk doesn't have the classic flavour text.:smallfrown:

It doesn't think. It doesn't feel. It doesn't laugh or cry.
All it does from dusk till dawn
Is make the soldiers die.

I know I'm being a very weird nitpicker here but you don't change something that works so well.

Sure, I don't play "real" formats, being limited to only massive multiplayer on a very casual level (we let in the Un-cards, for pete's sake!); however, I feel that this is one of those things that people just plain-out shouldn't change and you don't need to be a darn DCI-indulging Magic fan to realize this. :smallwink:

[tgva8889]

Unless that's what they want us to think, and they're actually making it a monocolor block just to screw with us.:eek:

The Duel Decks for the block are Izzet vs. Golgari. Those two never had any reason to fight in the Ravnica block story. I assume they're fighting now because they're showing up in Return to Ravnica. They never really fought in original Ravnica for really any reason whatsoever. Also the headlining Legend for the Golgari guild in that duel deck doesn't have a card yet.

[Fable Wright]

Yet another Magic thread by me, Shas'aia Toriia Duos! 'Cause I'm sure you weren't sick of looking at me yet!


Invisible copypasta!

[tgva8889]

You got me, Duos, you got me.

[9mm]

One thing I noticed was a distinct lack of Birds of Paradise.

for me it's the complete seemingly lack of one drops in general.

[SynissterSyster]

Greets. I been playing Magic off and on for about 10 years now. Most of my deck are legacy but that isn't my point. After playing a fun tourney at my local store I got bit by the Blue bug and am wondering if anyone has some advice on blue decks in general. I am tempted on going Blue/Black but I am unsure if this is wise. Thanks in advance.

[Androgeus]

You got me, Duos, you got me.

It's been in there since like the 5th thread.

[Sith_Happens]

Greets. I been playing Magic off and on for about 10 years now. Most of my deck are legacy but that isn't my point. After playing a fun tourney at my local store I got bit by the Blue bug and am wondering if anyone has some advice on blue decks in general. I am tempted on going Blue/Black but I am unsure if this is wise. Thanks in advance.

For what format?

[Lord Seth]

Greets. I been playing Magic off and on for about 10 years now. Most of my deck are legacy but that isn't my point. After playing a fun tourney at my local store I got bit by the Blue bug and am wondering if anyone has some advice on blue decks in general. I am tempted on going Blue/Black but I am unsure if this is wise. Thanks in advance.The only Blue/Black deck that comes to mind is Reanimator. But the top decks that involve Blue in Legacy are...
Canadian Threshold/RUG Delver
Reanimator
Stoneblade
UW Miracles
Merfolk
UR Delver
High Tide
Mono Blue Control
BUG Delver

There's some other ones like Dream Halls, Hivemind, Hypergenesis, or even Wizards tribal (which did top 8 in a big tournament...okay, only one tournament, but still), but the above ones are the ones that tend to have the most luck in tournaments.

[Sith_Happens]

M13 question:
If Vile Rebirth loses its target, do you still get the zombie?

[Science Officer]

Anyone here use Cockatrice or enjoy playing Tier >1 Modern decks?

[Androgeus]

M13 question:
If Vile Rebirth loses its target, do you still get the zombie?

nope. It's only got one target and if that becomes illegal by the time it resolves, it is countered

[tgva8889]

It's been in there since like the 5th thread.

It just took him a while to actually get me, then.

[Lord Seth]

In a good mood today. Not only did I go 4-0 for the first time ever in a tournament (I've gone 3-0-1 and 3-0 before, but never 4-0), but I opened a Cavern of Souls in one of my boosters I got as a prize. Trying to decide if I should put it into my Delver deck or sell/trade it.

[IthilanorStPete]

I'm going to be helping judge the prerelease this weekend; it's the first time I've judged anything more than a small FNM. tgva, other judges: any advice you have?


In a good mood today. Not only did I go 4-0 for the first time ever in a tournament (I've gone 3-0-1 and 3-0 before, but never 4-0), but I opened a Cavern of Souls in one of my boosters I got as a prize. Trying to decide if I should put it into my Delver deck or sell/trade it.

Congratulations! That's definitely something to be proud of.

[Mystic Muse]

So, Pre-Release is $25 and it sounds like I'll be the only one who would be able to go, so I may not end up going.

[tgva8889]

I'm going to be helping judge the prerelease this weekend; it's the first time I've judged anything more than a small FNM. tgva, other judges: any advice you have?

Are you head judging? If you aren't head judging, this is much easier:
1) Read the FAQ (http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/faq/m13).
2) Remember that this is a casual event, so unless someone does something really bad (like cheating), you're going to be giving out warnings.
3) Whenever anyone asks you a question, pick up the card(s) involved (or bend over them if you don't want to lift them off the play area) and read everything. This not only will help you make sure you know the oracle texts of the cards involved, but will also give you time to think about the question(s) you are being asked so you can more accurately provide a ruling.

Besides that, have fun! If your event isn't too large, you might be able to play as well as judge (you can both play and judge at FNM level or below.)


In a good mood today. Not only did I go 4-0 for the first time ever in a tournament (I've gone 3-0-1 and 3-0 before, but never 4-0), but I opened a Cavern of Souls in one of my boosters I got as a prize. Trying to decide if I should put it into my Delver deck or sell/trade it.

Congrats! If you have the space, Cavern's pretty good in Delver.

[Lord Seth]

2) Remember that this is a casual event, so unless someone does something really bad (like cheating), you're going to be giving out warnings.Don't you mean cautions?
Congrats! If you have the space, Cavern's pretty good in Delver.I know some Delver builds play it, though I do know the top one at the Manila Grand Prix didn't (then again, it had only 19 lands, and I'm not sure I want to drop down that low, I'm at 20 now). Right now I'm trying to decide whether the solitary Ghost Quarter in my deck should be replaced with Cavern or not.

[tgva8889]

I mean, for most game-loss offenses you give warnings. For most warning offenses, you give cautions. But the only thing you give warnings for usually is, like, missed triggers.

Edit: Notable terrible fun deck idea: We now have a 1-mana and a 2-mana Dragon to go with Descendants' Path (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=276498). Sounds like a fun time.

[Fable Wright]

Edit: Notable terrible fun deck idea: We now have a 1-mana and a 2-mana Dragon to go with Descendants' Path (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=276498). Sounds like a fun time.

Also the two mana Changeling Firebreather, but that's out of standard. Yay, Casual!

[tgva8889]

Well, the cards I mentioned happen to all be legal in Standard in 2 weeks.

[SynissterSyster]

I am aiming for a Milling deck. Standard as the format. I did pretty good at the small tourney so just need to build on it. One I get home I will post my deck.

[Penguinizer]

Does anyone here play on MtGO? I was thinking about starting it up so I could draft and play pauper at the odd hours of the day I'm awake during summer vacation. I know netdraft and cockatrice and such exist but the games feel like there's no tension since there's nothing on the line. Also, the Legacy tournaments on Magic-League just aren't scratching that itch.

[Bucky]

Also the two mana Changeling Firebreather, but that's out of standard. Yay, Casual!

If you want to go out of standard with Descendant's Path, use it with Eldrazi Spawn.



I am aiming for a Milling deck. Standard as the format. I did pretty good at the small tourney so just need to build on it. One I get home I will post my deck.

Aggro Mill doesn't usually work well in 60-card formats. To have a good mill deck, you need to either mill their entire library in one turn (Combo Mill) or have a small number of hard-to-remove cards that mill gradually while the rest of your deck tries to neutralize the opponent (Control Mill).

Blue-black has the only decent Control Mill plan in Standard right now with Nephalia Drownyard (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=230789).

[Androgeus]

If you want to go out of standard with Descendant's Path, use it with Eldrazi Spawn.

I don't see what good getting Elder Spawn (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=1478) on to the battlefield would do :smallconfused:Yes, I know Eldrazi

[Sith_Happens]

I don't see what good getting Elder Spawn (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=1478) on to the battlefield would do :smallconfused:Yes, I know Eldrazi

Simple, it turns Crucible of Worlds in "Target red player may scoop.":smallwink: Eldrazi are far too predicable, though.

[tgva8889]

I like the idea of Changling Lords with Descendant's Path. "Reveal the top of my deck. Oh, look, it's Sunrise Sovereign (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=139667), guess I'll play that for free."

[The Extinguisher]

I built a new EDH deck. Thoughts?

Ashling, the Pilgrim

Basilisk Collar
Blood Moon
Caged Sun
Chaos Warp
Champion's Helm
Darksteel Plate
Duplicant
Foriysian Totem
Gauntlet of Might
Gauntlet of Power
Gilded Lotus
Heartstone
Lightning Greaves
Loxodon Warhammer
Magebane Armor
Magmatic Force
Mana Flare
Mind's Eye
Scythe of the Wretched
Sol Ring
Solemn Simulacrum
Stranglehold

Homeward Path
76x Mountain

[tgva8889]

Needs more Ruination.

You also probably want to play Miren, the Moaning Well. You might want to play Hall of the Bandit Lord. I would also suggest Sword of War and Peace and Sword of Fire and Ice if you have them because pro-red is awesome when you're Earthquaking everything constantly.

I also suggest any ways to get more lands into play, since you're playing so many. Terrain Generator and Druidic Satchel are the examples that come to mind immediately.

Finally, Repercussion. It's really good at making other players die with Earthquakes.

[Sith_Happens]

I built a new EDH deck. Thoughts?

Ashling, the Pilgrim

Basilisk Collar
Blood Moon
Caged Sun
Chaos Warp
Champion's Helm
Darksteel Plate
Duplicant
Foriysian Totem
Gauntlet of Might
Gauntlet of Power
Gilded Lotus
Heartstone
Lightning Greaves
Loxodon Warhammer
Magebane Armor
Magmatic Force
Mana Flare
Mind's Eye
Scythe of the Wretched
Sol Ring
Solemn Simulacrum
Stranglehold

Homeward Path
76x Mountain


It might just be that I'm not very familiar with Commander, but your deck is three-quarters lands and I'm not seeing how you're supposed to consistently get enough of the other things to win, especially the all-important mana doublers (and/or the one cost-halver).

[tgva8889]

Actually, "99 Mountain Ashling" is a simple deck idea that many have suggested. The idea is that you make your land drop every turn and play Ashling and pump her whenever possible. It's not necessarily highly ineffective (I mean, you get to wrath pretty much whenever you want and you have a giant General), it just isn't as tricky as many other decks.

[The Extinguisher]

Needs more Ruination.

You also probably want to play Miren, the Moaning Well. You might want to play Hall of the Bandit Lord. I would also suggest Sword of War and Peace and Sword of Fire and Ice if you have them because pro-red is awesome when you're Earthquaking everything constantly.

I also suggest any ways to get more lands into play, since you're playing so many. Terrain Generator and Druidic Satchel are the examples that come to mind immediately.

Finally, Repercussion. It's really good at making other players die with Earthquakes.

Swords are pretty expensive, but I should get them anyway.
All of those are good suggestions. I feel dirty playing Terrain Generator in a mono-red deck though.


Also yes, 99 Mountain Ashling is the most fun. But 70ish mountain and good stuff Ashling is probably better.

[Lord Seth]

If you don't want to buy the swords at the current prices, you could wait a few months for them to rotate out of Standard, which will presumably drop their price.

[IcemanJRC]

Swords are pretty expensive, but I should get them anyway.
All of those are good suggestions. I feel dirty playing Terrain Generator in a mono-red deck though.


Also yes, 99 Mountain Ashling is the most fun. But 70ish mountain and good stuff Ashling is probably better.

If you just happen to have one lying around or whatever, Imperial Recruiter is the most fantabulous red creature ever and helps you keep Ashling around if she ever gets tucked. Though if you don't really have one I can understand not wanting to shell out for it.

[9mm]

Swords are pretty expensive, but I should get them anyway.
All of those are good suggestions. I feel dirty playing Terrain Generator in a mono-red deck though.


Also yes, 99 Mountain Ashling is the most fun. But 70ish mountain and good stuff Ashling is probably better.

needs that land that turns mountains into volcanos and koth.

[Mystic Muse]

What's the best way to shuffle an EDH/Commander deck? I think I'm going to play a game of that tonight at FNM so I'm curious.

[arguskos]

What's the best way to shuffle an EDH/Commander deck? I think I'm going to play a game of that tonight at FNM so I'm curious.
I tend to shuffle one half, then the other half, then shuffle the whole pile together a few times, and call it a day. Alternatively, pile shuffle it once or twice, then a few riffles. Either works.

[raymundo]

Greetings,

I recently started a little project of mine. As I've just recently started playing Magic with the Innistrad block (I had a bunch of cards about 13-15 years ago, but dumped then and forget about Magic's awesomeness) my playgroup is kinda short on players. While the video games are a nice starting point for bringing Magic to the people, I'm very eager to show them the "real" thing, so I decided to design five limitied mono decks for each color.

I thought this little excercise might encourage some more folks to design similar decks to recruit some more players on their own, so I want to share my ideas so far and ask for your feedback. Eventually we can get some constructive discussion started and finetune the decks altogether!


Here are the requirements for the decks:

each deck has 16 lands
has to sharply define the color's identity within 24 cards (think Giant Growth, Diabolic Tutor, Lightning Bolt)
mostly cheap cards with CMC 1-3
every deck has 3-5 big, splashy game-turning spells with CMC 6+
it is imperative that the decks hover around the same power level
keywords and mechanics, as they are common for the color
the creature/non-creature spell ratio should be representative for the color:
White: 14 creatures, 10 non-creatures
Blue: 8 creatures, 16 non-creatures
Black: 12 creatures, 12 non-creatures
Red: 10 creatures, 14 non-creatures
Green: 14 creatures, 10 non-creatures
I ask for your feedback for these numbers. Are they appropriate approximations?
nothing game-breaking or overly expensive
every deck should have a few answers for the other color's threats


These are my original first decks with whom I've played some games. At first I did not want to add any artifacts, but as artifact hate is a big part of red and green, I'll add some to every deck. Though I started pretty recently with Magic, I have a lot of random cards from a lot of sets (went shopping for .02€ cards). As I didn't want to rip too many of my 'real' decks apart, some cards are second-choice, but please just suggest any card that you think does fit the theme! Chances are good I actually own it.


White Weenie-ish, Support and Angel Finish
Vigilance, Flying, First Strike, Tap Others, Enchantment Lockdown, Enchantment Buffs

Lands
16 Plains

Spells
2 Bonds of Faith
2 Cursebreak
2 Zealous Strike
2 Angelic Armaments
1 Holy Strength
1 Vanguard's Shield

Creatures
2 Voiceless Spirit
4 Thraben Valiant
2 Avacynian Priest
2 Soul's Attendant
1 Elite Vanguard
2 Serra Angel
1 Shepherd of the Lost


Didn't exactly play too strong, I thought about adding some equipment, replace a serra angel with something mid-range-ish and replace Defy Death with something akin to Builder's Blessing. Any other ideas? Please feel free to point out anything, I'm looking for ways to give the deck more flavour and power. Green and Black just devastate it.

Changes: 2 Infantry Veteran out, 2 Thraben Valiant in
4 Squadron Hawk out, 2 Voiceless Spirit and 2 Thraben Valiant in
2 Condemn out, 2 Bonds of Faith in
1 Serra angel out, 1 Shepherd of the Lost in

Defy Death, Shieldmate's Blessing out, Angelic Armaments, Vanguards Shield in


Blue Control Card Draw Extravaganza
Flying, Hexproof, Card Draw, Tap Creatures, Counter

Lands
16 Island

Spells
2 Favorable Winds
1 Explorer's Scope
1 Curiosity
2 Psychic Barrier
4 Cancel
2 Jace's Ingenuity
1 Sleep
2 Mind Control
1 Flow of Ideas

Creatures
1 Shriekgeist
1 Merfolk Looter
1 Clockwork Dragon
2 Aven Fleetwing
2 Cloud Elemental
1 Air Servant


Blue was, ironically, the weakest deck of the lot. I wanted to include different counterspells, but maybe I'll just go with 4 cancels and 2 soft/conditional counters. This deck is pretty much a mess.
Update: Should be more balanced now, and has a lot of answers to creatures. What Blue does not counter, it may Control or Replicate or just smash the opponent with a superiour air force.

Changes:2 Kraken Hatchling out, Shriekgeist and Merfolk Looter in
2 Augury Owl out, 2 Aven Fleetwing in,
Chancellor of the Spires out, Guard Gomazoa in


Black-'get a demon out and win'
Deathtouch, Flying, Pump, Lifelink, Tutor, Reanimation

Lands
16 Swamp

Spells
2 Duress
2 Disentomb
1 Nausea
1 Demonmail Hauberk
2 Doom Blade
1 Rise from the Grave
2 Diabolic Tutor
1 Corruption

Creatures
2 Typhoid Rats
2 Diregraf Ghoul
1 Phyrexian Hulk
2 Child of Night
2 Soulcage Fiend
1 Nightwing Shade
1 Dark Hatchling
1 Rune-Scarred Demon


This deck was a lot of fun to play and I think it's pretty good. Flavorful, nice creatures and spells that are pretty much oozing black-ness. This is the power level I'm shooting for.

Changes: Skeletal Grimace out, Demonmail Hauberk in,
Skinmelter out, Nightwing Shade in,
Blood Artist out, Phyrexian Hulk in


Red Aggro..stuff
Haste, Flying, Direct Damage, Pump, Ping

Lands
16 Mountain

Spells
3 Flame Slash
2 Shock
2 Goblin War Paint
1 Fling
1 Demolish
1 Fireball
1 Lava Axe
1 Act of Treason
1 Spire Barrage
1 Flame Wave

Creatures
2 Goblin Arsonist
1 Prodigal Pyromancer
2 Fiery Hellhound
1 Arc Runner
1 Juggernaut
1 Tyrant of Discord
1 Vulshok Berserker
1 Archwing Dragon


Updated: Fair mix of burn and buffs, with two big finishers (Flame Wave and Spire Barrage). I chose creatures mainly for their iconic-ness: Archwing Dragon is.. well, a hasty-dragon. Tyrant of Discord is random and devastating, just as the Juggernaut.

Changes: Vulshok Heartstroker out, Fiery Hellhound in,
Feral Ridgewolf out, Prodigal Pyromancer in,
Charmbreaker Devils out, Tyrant of Discord in


Green Rampy Fun
Soulbound, Trample, Reach, Ramp

Lands
16 Forest

Spells
2 Giant Growth
2 Naturalize
2 Cultivate
2 Spidery Grasp
1 Rain of Thorns
1 Unnatural Predation

Creatures
2 Llanowar Elves
2 Uktabi Orangutan
3 Trusted Forcemage
2 Borderland Ranger
2 Giant Spider
1 Kindercatch
1 Vorstclaw
1 Duskdale Wurm



Well then! Please give me your input. Flavour/style always trumps power level, but the decks should be on par with each other.

[Bucky]

Blue Control Card Draw Extravaganza

Lands
16 Island

Spells
2 Robe of Mirrors
2 Unsummon
3 Negate
2 Deprive
3 Cancel
1 Rite of Replication
1 Jace's Ingenuity
2 Mind Control
1 Back from the Brink
2 Flow of Ideas

Creatures
2 Kraken Hatchling
2 Augury Owl
2 Cloud Elemental
1 Air Servant
1 Chancellor of the Spires


Blue was, ironically, the weakest deck of the lot. I wanted to include different counterspells, but maybe I'll just go with 4 cancels and 2 soft/conditional counters. This deck is pretty much a mess.


Your blue deck has bad mana. It relies more on its expensive spells than any deck except green, and green at least has extra mana from non-lands. Furthermore, it wants to play these expensive with countermagic backup, meaning that it wants 7-8 lands to function. 16 lands is not enough.

The first order of business is to replace the too-expensive card drawing with cheap card filtering, to help find lands early.
-2 Flow of Ideas
+2 Preordain
(You should also cut a Robe of Mirrors for an extra land if you'll allow it, perhaps a nonbasic like Haunted Fengraf or Quicksand)

Next, your creature selection is inconsistent. If you are defending, Cloud Elemental is pretty useless; if you are attacking, Kraken Hatchling is useless. Augury owl does neither well, basically acting as a spell with wings glued on. With only 8 creatures, you can't afford to have 4 of them do nothing at any given time.

A better selection of creatures would do both. Scroll Thief blocks well with its 3 toughness and attacks well in its own controllish way. Aether Adept is nice tempo-disruption and is also a good follow-up to the Scroll Thief. Azure Mage is possibly too strong, but is the definitive 2-drop for this sort of deck.

-1 Kraken Hatchling
-2 Cloud Elemental
-1 Augury Owl

+2 Scroll Thief
+2 Aether Adept

Similarly, you want your top end to be a bit more reachable
-1 Chancellor of the Spires
+1 (insert CMC 6 creature here)

Finally, given the extra blockers, it's SURPRISE time.
-1 Robe of Mirrors
+1 Fleeting Distraction (or maybe Diminish)

This analysis assumes you consider Mind Control to be a splashy, game-ending spell despite only costing 5. If you really need to pad your expensive spell count, swap one of them for Volition Reigns or Confiscate.

[Sith_Happens]

White Weenie-ish, Support and Angel Finish

Lands
16 Plains

Spells
2 Condemn
2 Cursebreak
2 Zealous Strike
2 Shieldmate's Blessing
1 Holy Strength
1 Defy Death

Creatures
4 Squadron Hawk
2 Infantry Veteran
2 Avacynian Priest
2 Soul's Attendant
1 Elite Vanguard
3 Serra Angel


Didn't exactly play too strong, I thought about adding some equipment, replace a serra angel with something mid-range-ish and replace Defy Death with something akin to Builder's Blessing. Any other ideas? Please feel free to point out anything, I'm looking for ways to give the deck more flavour and power. Green and Black just devastate it.

This deck actually doesn't fell all that white to me, or at least it doesn't really do a whole lot that the green and/or red deck don't. Off the top of my head, it would serve you well to throw in some static buffs and some vigilance, which would also help bring it in line power-wise.

Props for staying away from lifegain, by the way, it'd be a shame to let the new players you're hopefully creating fall into that trap.


Blue Control Card Draw Extravaganza

Lands
16 Island

Spells
2 Robe of Mirrors
2 Unsummon
3 Negate
2 Deprive
3 Cancel
1 Rite of Replication
1 Jace's Ingenuity
2 Mind Control
1 Back from the Brink
2 Flow of Ideas

Creatures
2 Kraken Hatchling
2 Augury Owl
2 Cloud Elemental
1 Air Servant
1 Chancellor of the Spires


Blue was, ironically, the weakest deck of the lot. I wanted to include different counterspells, but maybe I'll just go with 4 cancels and 2 soft/conditional counters. This deck is pretty much a mess.

A mess indeed. First off, you've made the mistake that I see far too many blue players make: Your win conditions aren't win-conditiony enough. Card advantage only helps you if some of those cards are going to reliably get your opponent from 20 to 0, and a few medium-costed fliers don't really qualify in that respect.

Definitely clean up the counterspells; four Cancels and two or three Essence Scatters would work best (assuming Mana Leak is too high-power for this). I say Essence Scatter rather than Negate because the other four decks look like they rely on their creatures more than their non-creatures.

Lastly, needs Ponder and/or Preordain.


Black-'get a demon out and win'

Lands
16 Swamp

Spells
2 Duress
2 Disentomb
1 Nausea
1 Skeletal Grimace
2 Doom Blade
1 Rise from the Grave
2 Diabolic Tutor
1 Corruption

Creatures
2 Typhoid Rats
2 Diregraf Ghoul
1 Blood Artist
2 Child of Night
2 Cadaver Imp
1 Skinrender
1 Dark Hatchling
1 Rune-Scarred Demon


This deck was a lot of fun to play and I think it's pretty good. Flavorful, nice creatures and spells that are pretty much oozing black-ness. This is the power level I'm shooting for.

Definitely pretty good overall, I don't really have anything to say here.


Red Aggro..stuff

Lands
16 Mountain

Spells
3 Flame Slash
2 Shock
2 Goblin War Paint
2 Fling
3 Act of Treason
1 Spire Barrage
1 Flame Wave

Creatures
3 Goblin Arsonist
2 Feral Ridgewolf
2 Vulshok Heartstokre
2 Arc Runner
1 Charmbreaker Devils


Prolly on the right power level, but I think the flavor is lacking. Red will get some artifact hate, after I chose what artifacts to add to the other decks. I think I want to add some creatures with the real fire-breathing in place of the wolves. The Fling-Arc Runner-interaction is for the player to figure out.

Needs Lightning Bolt. At least three of them. That's about it.


Green Rampy Fun

Lands
16 Forest

Spells
2 Giant Growth
2 Naturalize
2 Plummet
1 Tanglesap
2 Cultivate
1 Beast Hunt

Creatures
2 Llanowar Elves
3 Wandering Wolf
1 Runeclaw Bear
2 Trusted Forcemage
2 Giant Spider
3 Pathbreaker Wurm
1 Duskdale Wurm


I think Rampant Growth might fit into this deck's mana curve better than Cultivate, but maybe not. Also, consider Elvish Warrior in place of some of the existing two-drops; green's main job is to have creatures that make equally-costed creatures of other colors cry in the corner.


No comment on artifacts to add for now, that's a bit too open-ended for the time I have left to be foruming (yes, that's a word now) today.

[raymundo]

Your blue deck has bad mana. It relies more on its expensive spells than any deck except green, and green at least has extra mana from non-lands. Furthermore, it wants to play these expensive with countermagic backup, meaning that it wants 7-8 lands to function. 16 lands is not enough.



Thank you very much for your deep analysis! I think my changes reflect your advice; the amount of big spells was too high for sure. You made a legit point about negate and I pulled it. Psychic Barrier is pretty much borderin into Black territory, but hopefully the spell makes sense as a counter so brutal it actually hurts the other mage, or the likes. Does the mana look better now?





This deck actually doesn't fell all that white to me, or at least it doesn't really do a whole lot that the green and/or red deck don't. Off the top of my head, it would serve you well to throw in some static buffs and some vigilance, which would also help bring it in line power-wise.

Props for staying away from lifegain, by the way, it'd be a shame to let the new players you're hopefully creating fall into that trap.


Jap, I made White whiter - hopefully. I focused on Vigilance, First Strike and Flying and for aesthetic cookie points, Shepherd of the Lost has all three keywords. I'll probably throw some "all creature get +1/+2" in there sometime, just for more whiteness.




A mess indeed. First off, you've made the mistake that I see far too many blue players make: Your win conditions aren't win-conditiony enough. Card advantage only helps you if some of those cards are going to reliably get your opponent from 20 to 0, and a few medium-costed fliers don't really qualify in that respect.

Definitely clean up the counterspells; four Cancels and two or three Essence Scatters would work best (assuming Mana Leak is too high-power for this). I say Essence Scatter rather than Negate because the other four decks look like they rely on their creatures more than their non-creatures.

Lastly, needs Ponder and/or Preordain.


Sadly, my Preordains are sitting in my U/R Delver deck. Same with my Mana Leaks, so I put 2 Psychic Barriers in, that are a little too U/B for my taste. I reworked the deck pretty much, so I would much appreciate if you gave it another look and told me what you think of it now.




Definitely pretty good overall, I don't really have anything to say here.


Alright, I removed the Cadaver Imps to not mess with Blues air superiority as much. Soulcage Fiend went in, I think they're pretty flavourful.




Needs Lightning Bolt. At least three of them. That's about it.


True. I gotta make some shopping, though. My Lightning Bolts are sitting in other decks at the moment.




I think Rampant Growth might fit into this deck's mana curve better than Cultivate, but maybe not. Also, consider Elvish Warrior in place of some of the existing two-drops; green's main job is to have creatures that make equally-costed creatures of other colors cry in the corner.


I gotta admit Green is my least favorite color, so I'm not as motivated as for the other colors. I removed some Wurms because of Wurmy-overload and gave Green some more ramping and artifact-hate (and it's a nice place to show off some of the more ridicilous Magic artworks). Blue vs. Green might be an interesting matchup, Green does not have a lot of answers to flying threats. But I guess the playtesting will tell!




So far, thank you very much for your feedback! I hope you'll give my revised decks another look, I dare to say they look pretty ok-ish. That is, before playtesting. Gotta grab me some not-yet-addicted people this weekend.

[Sith_Happens]

[Changes]

Definitely good changes to Blue, White, Black, and Red, especially the former two. Green, though, you actually made quite a bit worse. Llanowar Elves is now the only creature for fewer than three mana, which is simply unacceptable. In fact, now there's hardly anything for less than three mana and only two cards to get to those quicker (the Elves). Not only that, but you replaced most of the trampling fatties with non-trampling fatties.:smallannoyed:

[Mystic Muse]

I've got a weird problem.

I want to take a test to try and become a rules advisor, but in order to do that I need to put in my DCI number. Unfortunately, I don't remember it due to not having my card any longer (I lost it a LONG time ago, probably back near when my closest gaming store hosted FNM instead of the one I go to now) and I'm not sure how to get it back. I've tried putting in my standard Email address, which is the ONLY address that could feasibly be associated with it, and it just gives me a weird error saying the Email address isn't associated with a DCI number.

The problem is, I'm pretty sure I still have a number as I've gone to FNM a ton and haven't received any problems. What's the best way to get back my number? Just ask the judge next time I'm at FNM or what?

[tgva8889]

To sign you up for FNM, they have to have your DCI number on record. You can just ask them what it is. If they don't have it, I'm not sure how they've been letting you play in FNM all this time.

It's highly possible that you don't have an email associated with your DCI number, which is why putting in your email doesn't work.

[Bucky]

Thank you very much for your deep analysis! I think my changes reflect your advice; the amount of big spells was too high for sure. You made a legit point about negate and I pulled it. Psychic Barrier is pretty much borderin into Black territory, but hopefully the spell makes sense as a counter so brutal it actually hurts the other mage, or the likes. Does the mana look better now?

Negate was actually fine, as long as the deck's player is patient enough to hold a creature until they had mana open to play it and a negate in the same turn.

Explorer's Scope and Merfolk Looter help with hitting land drops (or ditching extra lands), but part of the point was that more stuff with "Draw a card" on it => 16 lands go farther.

You don't seem to have enough fliers for Favorable Winds to be worth it. I'd rather have the Negates or Fleeting Distractions.

Oh, and Shriekgeist is worse than Augury Owl since the Owl was helping with the mana problems.

[raymundo]

Negate was actually fine, as long as the deck's player is patient enough to hold a creature until they had mana open to play it and a negate in the same turn.

Explorer's Scope and Merfolk Looter help with hitting land drops (or ditching extra lands), but part of the point was that more stuff with "Draw a card" on it => 16 lands go farther.

You don't seem to have enough fliers for Favorable Winds to be worth it. I'd rather have the Negates or Fleeting Distractions.

Oh, and Shriekgeist is worse than Augury Owl since the Owl was helping with the mana problems.


I see your point. I'll play some games tonight, then I'll see if I should add some cantrips. Well, that's probably not a bad idea anyway, but I think Blue is getting kinda complicated as-is.

Mana isn't actually that much of an issue, the games tend to be kinda slow.



Definitely good changes to Blue, White, Black, and Red, especially the former two. Green, though, you actually made quite a bit worse. Llanowar Elves is now the only creature for fewer than three mana, which is simply unacceptable. In fact, now there's hardly anything for less than three mana and only two cards to get to those quicker (the Elves). Not only that, but you replaced most of the trampling fatties with non-trampling fatties.:smallannoyed:


You're most likely right. I'll lower the mana curve for the creatures. I removed the trampling fatties because they were kinda overpowered in this setting, once you have 2-3 on the board you pretty much stomp everything, especially since they'd grant trample to your forcemages as well. I don't want the Green creatures to be too powerful, these games tend to go for 9+ mana quite fast, which gives Green an edge over everything else if their creatures are too good..


Too bad I traded my two Garruk's Champion away, they'd be a perfect fit. More trampling, efficient as hell and a two drop.

[Zombimode]

Just came back from a M13 prerelease (sealed deck).
It was my first tournament ever and I did fine. In the end I was at 3-1-1 which got me a solid 3rd place.

My not amazing but also not too shabby cardpool dictated a Wg beatdown deck.

Cards that did the legwork/suprised me

Odric: To be clear, Odric is not a super awesome card that will win you the game the instant it drops. That said, he is good. He is elegant. And, most importantly for me, he is just fun to play. Why is that? Normally, attacking isn't all that exciting. You turn your dudes sideways and hope for the best. But with Odric on your side attacking equals interaction, stuff to do, options. He kills creatures, he makes your army unblockable. He's just awesome to have.
And yes, he has won me games.

Prey Upon: I know, this card isn't news. But in many cases it's green creature removal for G. Thats good. It has saved my life. It never failed its job. And it was used against me with equal success. In almost every game it was an absolutely vital card (but I was starved for removal).

Ring of Kalonia: It is probably the best of the cycle. Although I didn't played much in terms in green creatures, the green ring had sealed the deal for my opponent more the once. Most of the time it was attached to an Elvish Visionary or Bond Beetle, but actually that proved to be sufficient.

Crusader of Odric: Odric knows how to train his fighters. Great in a Weenie deck, a nice 3-drop that can put a lot of pressure on your opponent. I can see her beeing played in constructed.
On a side note she makes a good target for Prey Upon. Being a girl, she also likes Rings (of Kalonia).

Rhox Faithmender: Nicely costed at 4, blocks a lot of things and has the potential to do wonders to your life total. While he hasn't won me any games (being 1/5 and all...) the life gain and defensive abilities were relevant.
He's an auto include for any casual life gain decks (you know, there is alway the one Mr. or Ms. life gain in casual multiplayer).

Cards I Recall Being A Pain In The Butt

Dragon Hatchling/Furnace Whelp/Lilliana's Shade: These pump creatures can spell the end of the game very fast, especially the flying ones (but the shade has its own advantages). I had a tough time dealing with them.

Slumbering Dragon: I don't care if he "sucks" in constructed (I can't say). He rocks in limited. End of story.


Cards That Could Have Been Great But Somehow Didn't Manage To Do Much

Intrepid Hero: There was so much he could have done. And I'm not just talking about killing creatures. He also limits the amount the opponent can pump his/her pump creatures. He and Serra Angel are best friends (I had one in my deck).
But our Hero has a problem: because he is such a big threat to the opponents board he as a big bullseye painted on his forehead. This wouldn't be a problem because creatures do die to removal. But he is SO fragile. If he had a toughness of even just 2 he would have survived so much more.
Over the course of the 5 matches he killed one creature. And I did draw him often enough. Most of the time he just died instantly (well, figuratively speaking) when I dropped him.

Griffin Protector: I had higher hopes for this creature. I guess it was just bad luck from my side, but he got never stronger then 3/4. He probably works better with token producers, especially at instant speed.


All in all I had a great day and I'm happy about my success :smallsmile:. I made a mistake here and there but I'm not sure if I could have done better even when avoiding those mistakes.

My 4 price boosters on the other hand weren't that hot. A Rancor, a Glacial Fortress and.... nothing. I even got a Worldfire :smallmad:

[Ninjaman]

My games didn't go that well, but i got a jace in one of the boosters.

[Androgeus]

He's an auto include for any casual life gain decks (you know, there is alway the one Mr. or Ms. life gain in casual multiplayer)

Hey, I only have that life gain deck because cradle of vitality, ageless entity and Ajani's pridemate looked like fun cards....
:smalltongue:

[Zombimode]

Hey, I only have that life gain deck because cradle of vitality, ageless entity and Ajani's pridemate looked like fun cards....
:smalltongue:

Well, and thats why I'm building on a deck that can produce OVER 9000! rat tokens (with Marrow-Gnawer and Pemmins Aura). It also runs Mirror Entity :smalltongue:

[9mm]

so pre-release, went 2-3 with a black/red near completely singleton deck, didn't get much in terms of synergy. big pulls another X-gorgan, Gurak, and worldfire.

favorite moment: sitting across from a board of 8 defenders. thanks to my Gorgan.

[IthilanorStPete]

Went 3-2, had a good time playing and judging. Went GW splashing black for Essence Drain; I had fairly little white,but what I had was good, including an Ajani. :smallbiggrin: I had some good black control cards such as a Mutilate, but no other color really supported a control plan. Had some good blue fliers, but didn't have enough creatures for a UW deck. So I went with little white idiots followed bybig green idiots, which worked out generally well.

[Mystic Muse]

Didn't get a chance to go to my prerelease. Oh well.

[Elagune]

Hey there! Just started playing Magic with the pre-release, and I'm growing really fond of the game. Picked up the Avacyn Restored White/Blue event deck, and now I'm planning on making something cheap for Standard that would last me until October.

I'd like to continue playing White/Blue, since I really like the playstyles of those colours. Can any of you guys give me suggestions for some commons and uncommons that might be good additions to my deck?

[Ninjaman]

Hey there! Just started playing Magic with the pre-release, and I'm growing really fond of the game. Picked up the Avacyn Restored White/Blue event deck, and now I'm planning on making something cheap for Standard that would last me until October.

I'd like to continue playing White/Blue, since I really like the playstyles of those colours. Can any of you guys give me suggestions for some commons and uncommons that might be good additions to my deck?

More blade splicers
more Mirran crusaders
More pyrexian metamorphs
More clacial fortresses
more moorland haunt
Champion of the Parish (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=262861)
Odric, Master Tactician (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=259670)
Silverblade Paladin (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=240155)
Restoration Angel (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=240096)
Celestial Purge (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=220195) for sideboard
Maybe Geist of Saint Traft (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Discussion.aspx?multiverseid=247236)
or
Snapcaster Mage (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=227676)

[tgva8889]

It's so tempting to suggest you just play UW Delver (Watanabe's list here (http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/deck/996) and Luis Scott-Vargas's here (http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/deck/991)). If you plan to play Standard, UW Delver is probably the best UW deck you could be playing right now.

[Ninjaman]

It's so tempting to suggest you just play UW Delver (Watanabe's list here (http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/deck/996) and Luis Scott-Vargas's here (http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/deck/991)). If you plan to play Standard, UW Delver is probably the best UW deck you could be playing right now.

I was a bit disapointed none of those lists used blade splicers.

[Octopus Jack]

I've finally been to my first pre-release event which was also my first sealed experience of any kind and I did better than expected.

My cards weren't great with a couple of rare cards being nearly completely useless (eg Ground Seal) and I ended up playing a b/u deck. It was a fairly small player base (only four rounds) and I ended up going 2-2 (with both loses being 2-1 and one of them would have been a win if I had drawn one more mountain) and I've been inspired, partially by how well Mogg Flunkies worked, to start to build a standard goblin deck for M13 and onwards. Does anyone have any advice or suggestions for this goal?

[Penguinizer]

I finally gave in and dropped the money for Magic Online so I could draft in the early hours of morning (I do have a few decks but that was primarily why). Turns out I suck at it though. I know the basic BREAD formula for card picks but I just can't seem to make a good deck. Does anyone have any good tips? :smallredface:

[Elagune]

I've finally been to my first pre-release event which was also my first sealed experience of any kind and I did better than expected.

My cards weren't great with a couple of rare cards being nearly completely useless (eg Ground Seal) and I ended up playing a b/u deck. It was a fairly small player base (only four rounds) and I ended up going 2-2 (with both loses being 2-1 and one of them would have been a win if I had drawn one more mountain) and I've been inspired, partially by how well Mogg Flunkies worked, to start to build a standard goblin deck for M13 and onwards. Does anyone have any advice or suggestions for this goal?

Oh, you're in the same boat as me! I also went 2-2 in my prerelease, although one of the wins was a bye and I also had a draw as well. I ran a R/G deck though, since I got Rancor a bunch of excellent 4-drops for both Red and Green. We can be 2-2 buddies!

On another note, thanks for the help, guys. I've looked at the Delver decks, and I like it! The key components of the deck are cheap enough that I could easily justify it to myself. I'm thinking of dropping White in favour of a Mono-Blue deck, though.

How does something like this sound?


24 Islands
---
4 Delver
4 Augur of Bolas
4 Talrand, Sky Summoner
---
4 Vapor Snag / Unsummon
4 Thought Scour
4 Ponder
4 Mana Leak
2 Runechanter's Pike
2 Dismember
2 Negate
---
2 Jace, Memory Adept

I've got about half of the cards necessary already from the Event Deck I picked up, and the rest are relatively cheap with the exceptions of Talrand and Jace. I can probably replace Jace with something else, but I kinda just really like the card.

[The Extinguisher]

I finally gave in and dropped the money for Magic Online so I could draft in the early hours of morning (I do have a few decks but that was primarily why). Turns out I suck at it though. I know the basic BREAD formula for card picks but I just can't seem to make a good deck. Does anyone have any good tips? :smallredface:

Draft more is the most important one.
Maaaaybe wait until M13 is out, because Avacyn is awful. But the more you draft, the better you'll get at it.

Also don't be afraid to switch colours if you need to, and MODO makes it easy for you to look at your picks, so you can identify what you're missing. If you're running light on creatures, feel free to grab that dude before the removal spell, even if the removal might be "better"

[Ninjaman]

Oh, you're in the same boat as me! I also went 2-2 in my prerelease, although one of the wins was a bye and I also had a draw as well. I ran a R/G deck though, since I got Rancor a bunch of excellent 4-drops for both Red and Green. We can be 2-2 buddies!

On another note, thanks for the help, guys. I've looked at the Delver decks, and I like it! The key components of the deck are cheap enough that I could easily justify it to myself. I'm thinking of dropping White in favour of a Mono-Blue deck, though.

How does something like this sound?



I've got about half of the cards necessary already from the Event Deck I picked up, and the rest are relatively cheap with the exceptions of Talrand and Jace. I can probably replace Jace with something else, but I kinda just really like the card.

Negate aren't good enough i think.
And you need snapcasters, they are expensive but you need them.
Also i don't think jace will be very good in the deck.

[Lord Seth]

Went 2-1-1 at my prerelease. The annoying thing is that that doesn't get you a better prize than 2-2. Honestly, I should have won the first and maybe second round. The first I was one turn away from winning in the third game, but time ran out. The annoying thing is that if my opponent hadn't spent a few minutes sleeving his cards at the start, we wouldn't have run out. The second round had me decide to sideboard out a card for another in the second game of it...only to have the second card be useless in the game and the original one would've really, really helped me out. Not sure if I would've won it, but I would've had a better chance.

[Sith_Happens]

Seeing as I have Rancor on the brain right now, I'm wondering whether it would be worth putting in my Madness deck and if so, what to take out for it.

Current decklist:
Creatures:

x4 Wild Mongrel
x4 Basking Rootwala
x4 Arrogant Wurm
x4 Anger

Non-Creature Spells:

x4 Faithless Looting
x3 Lightning Axe
x4 Fiery Temper
x4 Roar of the Wurm
x2 Howling Mine
x3 Green Sun's Zenith
x2 Burning Wish

Lands:

x4 Wooded Foothills
x4 Stomping Ground
x4 Rootbound Crag
x5 Forest
x5 Mountain

[Penguinizer]

I'm not all convinced by Green Sun's Zenith in the deck. You just don't have much use for it. You don't have any utility creatures to search other than Mongrel. I'd recommend adding some sort of utility toolbox.

Also, Werebear is great in Madness.

[Sith_Happens]

I'm not all convinced by Green Sun's Zenith in the deck. You just don't have much use for it. You don't have any utility creatures to search other than Mongrel.

Correct, Zenith is pretty much just there to search for Mongrels (or occassionally Rootwalas). That qualifies as a lot of use for it, though, because Mongrel has a huge target on its back and without one I'm SOL as far as tempo goes.


Also, Werebear is great in Madness.

Personally I'd go for Nimble Mongoose first, but as is I'm short on room for either anyways.:smallfrown:

[Meta]

Pulled Sands and Jace at the prerelease.

Shenanigans ensued.

[IcemanJRC]

Oh, you're in the same boat as me! I also went 2-2 in my prerelease, although one of the wins was a bye and I also had a draw as well. I ran a R/G deck though, since I got Rancor a bunch of excellent 4-drops for both Red and Green. We can be 2-2 buddies!

On another note, thanks for the help, guys. I've looked at the Delver decks, and I like it! The key components of the deck are cheap enough that I could easily justify it to myself. I'm thinking of dropping White in favour of a Mono-Blue deck, though.

How does something like this sound?

I've got about half of the cards necessary already from the Event Deck I picked up, and the rest are relatively cheap with the exceptions of Talrand and Jace. I can probably replace Jace with something else, but I kinda just really like the card.

Elagune! It's awesome to hear that you're playing now. I played MonoBlue Delver when Innistrad first came out and I could recommend some stuff.

First off, I do not feel like Jace is the right decision for this deck. His abilities aren't exactly synergistic and he's expensive. Second, Talrand is an interesting idea and I think it'll be interesting, but I don't think you want four.
I'd personally cut down to two or three if you want. Testing will tell if you want him to stick around or drop his numbers, but four strikes me as too many. 24 Islands is a lot and Delver doesn't usually need that many, try 22 and see how it works. If you take those suggestions that leaves 5 or 6 spots open, things I liked in my MonoBlue Delver included Silver-Inlaid Dagger (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=222190), Invisible Stalker (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=220041) and Psychic Barrier (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=218016).

Though of course, it's your deck and you should try out what you think will be good.


Negate aren't good enough i think.
I'd run some in the sideboard, but I agree they don't pull their weight in the Main most of the time.



And you need snapcasters, they are expensive but you need them.


I disagree. Strongly. Snapcaster is in no way a necessity. If you have him, play him, if not don't worry. His utility is not enough to advocate an 80 dollar purchase to a literally brand new player. He's highly overrated anyway. Though Elagune, I definitely recommend you keep an eye out for him and try and pick him up if you can do it easily. If you don't mind paying that much then I recommend him, but you seem to want to keep a lower budget.



Also i don't think jace will be very good in the deck.

Agreed.

[Meta]

Oh, you're in the same boat as me! I also went 2-2 in my prerelease, although one of the wins was a bye and I also had a draw as well. I ran a R/G deck though, since I got Rancor a bunch of excellent 4-drops for both Red and Green. We can be 2-2 buddies!

On another note, thanks for the help, guys. I've looked at the Delver decks, and I like it! The key components of the deck are cheap enough that I could easily justify it to myself. I'm thinking of dropping White in favour of a Mono-Blue deck, though.

How does something like this sound?



I've got about half of the cards necessary already from the Event Deck I picked up, and the rest are relatively cheap with the exceptions of Talrand and Jace. I can probably replace Jace with something else, but I kinda just really like the card.

Am I correct in assuming you're gearing this up for post rotation?

[Penguinizer]

I'm tempted to run the following in post-rotation (pending changes for reprints and new cards) for Bant 'Gro.


Creatures:
4x Quirion Dryad
4x Snapcaster Mage
4x Delver of Secrets
3x Geist of Saint Traft

Stuff:
4x Rancor
2x Runechanter's Pike

Instants/Sorceries:
4x Lingering Souls
4x Ponder variant (flex slot if one doesn't exist)
4x Unsummon
4x Essence Scatter
2x Negate

Lands:
3x Terramorphic/Evolving Wilds
2x Glacial Fortress
4x Hinterland Harbor
3x Sunpetal Grove
3x Island
3x Plains
2x Forest

Considering:
Serra Avenger

[IcemanJRC]

I'm tempted to run the following in post-rotation (pending changes for reprints and new cards) for Bant 'Gro.


Creatures:
4x Quirion Dryad
4x Snapcaster Mage
4x Delver of Secrets
3x Geist of Saint Traft

Stuff:
4x Rancor
2x Runechanter's Pike

Instants/Sorceries:
4x Lingering Souls
4x Ponder variant (flex slot if one doesn't exist)
4x Unsummon
4x Essence Scatter
2x Negate

Lands:
3x Terramorphic/Evolving Wilds
2x Glacial Fortress
4x Hinterland Harbor
3x Sunpetal Grove
3x Island
3x Plains
2x Forest

Considering:
Serra Avenger


Without black, Lingering Souls is just worse than Midnight Haunting. I recommend the switch. Looks interesting though.

[tgva8889]

You know, if you aren't going to play any way to make Black mana, you could play Midnight Haunting instead of Lingering Souls. Being an Instant seems better than a Flashback cost you will never pay.

I assume your "Ponder variant" would be Thought Scour.

Do you really want Pike in a deck with only 18 Instants or Sorceries? I don't think you have space for 6 creature enhancers, you need the Instants and Sorceries to get value out of Delver and Snapcaster.

[Penguinizer]

You know, if you aren't going to play any way to make Black mana, you could play Midnight Haunting instead of Lingering Souls. Being an Instant seems better than a Flashback cost you will never pay.

I assume your "Ponder variant" would be Thought Scour.

Do you really want Pike in a deck with only 18 Instants or Sorceries? I don't think you have space for 6 creature enhancers, you need the Instants and Sorceries to get value out of Delver and Snapcaster.

I could probably cut out the Rancors to make space. I just couldn't really think of enough good cards post-rotation that are out yet. I assume more stuff will come though.

-4 Rancor, +4 ???

I'll try it out on Cockatrice (since I don't feel like getting the cards on anything official yet) and give you my thoughts. I'm running Gut Shot as a temporary card.

EDIT: Played vs. Vampires, not a massive fan so far. I think I might just go with pure UG. Although I'm not completely sure.

[The Extinguisher]

You could probably keep Lingering Souls and splash black if we are getting shock lands.

[Lord Seth]

I'm tempted to run the following in post-rotation (pending changes for reprints and new cards) for Bant 'Gro.


Creatures:
4x Quirion Dryad
4x Snapcaster Mage
4x Delver of Secrets
3x Geist of Saint Traft

Stuff:
4x Rancor
2x Runechanter's Pike

Instants/Sorceries:
4x Lingering Souls
4x Ponder variant (flex slot if one doesn't exist)
4x Unsummon
4x Essence Scatter
2x Negate

Lands:
3x Terramorphic/Evolving Wilds
2x Glacial Fortress
4x Hinterland Harbor
3x Sunpetal Grove
3x Island
3x Plains
2x Forest

Considering:
Serra Avenger
People have already commented on the Lingering Souls, but I do think you should up the Geist count to four. Yeah, he's a legend, but anything with a power of 2 or greater will finish it, so you can go through them surprisingly fast.

Are six counterspells really necessary?

[9mm]

Creatures:
4x Auger of Bolos
4x Vampire nighthawk
4x Ravonous Rats
4x Mist Raven or aethersworn adept
2x Talrand, Sky summoner

Stuff:
2x exliir of immortality

Instants/Sorceries:
2x ghostly Ficker
4x Duress
4x Despise
4x Unsummon
3x Essence Scatter
3x Negate

Lands:
3x Evolving Wilds
8 islands
7 swamps

debating cutting flicker and Talrand for some form of removal, thoughts?

[tgva8889]

Why Elixir of Immortality? Seems weak and doesn't really do anything related to your strategy. Better to play a removal spell like Victim of Night, Tragic Slip, or Murder since you currently have no way to actually beat any problem creatures.

Also, only 18 lands is INCREDIBLY sketchy with no cantrips or ways to fix your mana whatsoever. I definitely suggest increasing to 22 at minimum and probably adding some Thought Scours and/or Think Twices to help smooth out your mana draws.

Unsummon < Vapor Snag. I suggest Vapor Snag instead, it's actually just straight better in 90% of situations. If you're going to bounce your own creatures, I suggest playing Peel from Reality instead. But even then Vapor Snag is probably still going to be better most of the time.

[Bucky]

Once again, M13 has an infinite combo in it. Once again, it's horribly impractical.

[IthilanorStPete]

Once again, M13 has an infinite combo in it. Once again, it's horribly impractical.

What is it?

[tgva8889]

Is it 3 Oblivion Rings (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGXG5rNe_tI)? It's totally 3 Oblivion Rings.

[Binks]

Faith's Reward + Archaeomancer + Bloodthrone Vampire + 2 Torch Fiends + 2 Gilded Lotus? Is that insanely complicated enough to quality? Archaeomancer + Faith's reward can probably enable dozens of infinite combos.

Explanation
Faith's Reward in hand. Archaeomancer, Vampire, Fiends and Lotuses on the field.

Sac Archaeomancer to Vampire.
Tap both lotuses, 1 for 3 white, 1 for 3 red.
2 red to sac both Torch Fiends, destroying the Lotuses
4 (3 white, 1 red) to cast Faith's reward.
Archaeomancer enters the battlefield, returning Faith's reward to hand

You now have Faith's in hand, Archaeomancer, Vampire, Fiends and Lotuses on the field. Back where you started. Go nuts.

[tgva8889]

So did you just use 7 cards in order to... attack someone with an arbitrarily large Bloodthrone Vampire? Sounds super-convoluted to me! (Also requires 2 copies of Gilded Lotus, a rare. Just to make it even harder.)

[Penguinizer]

So did you just use 7 cards in order to... attack someone with an arbitrarily large Bloodthrone Vampire? Sounds super-convoluted to me! (Also requires 2 copies of Gilded Lotus, a rare. Just to make it even harder.)

I still vote that The 4 Horsemen is the most convoluted combo ever. It had to essentially be banned since it could feasibly take more than an hour to play properly even if you're playing at a fast pace. :smallbiggrin:

I have this spot in my heart for silly things like that.

[IcemanJRC]

Care to explain? That sounds awesome.

[Penguinizer]

The combo used Mesmeric Orb and Basalt Monolith for infinite self mill and basically relied on milling yourself and shuffling your gave into your deck with Emrakul until you hit the right cards in the correct order to combo off. The problem is that since it's an infinite loop with choices and variable outcomes you can't shortcut it.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=309361

Here's a thread that explains it.

[Sith_Happens]

The combo used Mesmeric Orb and Basalt Monolith for infinite self mill and basically relied on milling yourself and shuffling your gave into your deck with Emrakul until you hit the right cards in the correct order to combo off. The problem is that since it's an infinite loop with choices and variable outcomes you can't shortcut it.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=309361

Here's a thread that explains it.

That is one of the most beautiful, horrifying, and hilarious things I've ever read, all at the same time.

[IcemanJRC]

The combo used Mesmeric Orb and Basalt Monolith for infinite self mill and basically relied on milling yourself and shuffling your gave into your deck with Emrakul until you hit the right cards in the correct order to combo off. The problem is that since it's an infinite loop with choices and variable outcomes you can't shortcut it.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=309361

Here's a thread that explains it.

I shed a tear at how beautiful that is.

[tgva8889]

Is this like how if someone generates a million tokens and someone else resolves Scrambleverse (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=220300), the game basically goes to time because they have to somehow randomly determine who gains control of each token?

The 4 Horsemen isn't banned, you just can't feasibly win a tournament with it. You will accumulate too many Slow Play warnings to win the tournament.

[Elagune]

Elagune! It's awesome to hear that you're playing now. I played MonoBlue Delver when Innistrad first came out and I could recommend some stuff.

First off, I do not feel like Jace is the right decision for this deck. His abilities aren't exactly synergistic and he's expensive. Second, Talrand is an interesting idea and I think it'll be interesting, but I don't think you want four.
I'd personally cut down to two or three if you want. Testing will tell if you want him to stick around or drop his numbers, but four strikes me as too many. 24 Islands is a lot and Delver doesn't usually need that many, try 22 and see how it works. If you take those suggestions that leaves 5 or 6 spots open, things I liked in my MonoBlue Delver included Silver-Inlaid Dagger (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=222190), Invisible Stalker (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=220041) and Psychic Barrier (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=218016).

Though of course, it's your deck and you should try out what you think will be good.


I'd run some in the sideboard, but I agree they don't pull their weight in the Main most of the time.



I disagree. Strongly. Snapcaster is in no way a necessity. If you have him, play him, if not don't worry. His utility is not enough to advocate an 80 dollar purchase to a literally brand new player. He's highly overrated anyway. Though Elagune, I definitely recommend you keep an eye out for him and try and pick him up if you can do it easily. If you don't mind paying that much then I recommend him, but you seem to want to keep a lower budget.



Agreed.

Thanks for the suggestions, Iceman. It's always great to see people I know in topics I've never been to before.

But yeah, it looks like Jace isn't the best choice for the deck, and I guess that's fine. I'll probably still get him anyway, since I love his art and I'm thinking of making a casual mill deck. If Negate isn't good enough for the main deck, should I switch it out for Essence Scatter instead? Or, Psychic Barrier is probably better, but Phyrexia is getting rotated out in three months...

I guess it makes sense that I should turn down the amount of Talrands. He is kind of a 2/2 with almost nothing else. Still, if I have a Gut Shot or a Gitaxian Probe or something, that's almost two 2/2s for free.

And yeah, Snapcaster Mage isn't happening. I don't have THAT much money. Maybe if I get lucky in trades or opening a pack or something...


Am I correct in assuming you're gearing this up for post rotation?

Kind of! I'll be using some Phyrexian commons until they rotate out, but for the most part I'm just trying to build a deck that wouldn't completely fall apart the moment the rotation happens.

[IcemanJRC]

Is this like how if someone generates a million tokens and someone else resolves Scrambleverse (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=220300), the game basically goes to time because they have to somehow randomly determine who gains control of each token?

The 4 Horsemen isn't banned, you just can't feasibly win a tournament with it. You will accumulate too many Slow Play warnings to win the tournament.

I would still try it.


Thanks for the suggestions, Iceman. It's always great to see people I know in topics I've never been to before.

But yeah, it looks like Jace isn't the best choice for the deck, and I guess that's fine. I'll probably still get him anyway, since I love his art and I'm thinking of making a casual mill deck. If Negate isn't good enough for the main deck, should I switch it out for Essence Scatter instead? Or, Psychic Barrier is probably better, but Phyrexia is getting rotated out in three months...

I guess it makes sense that I should turn down the amount of Talrands. He is kind of a 2/2 with almost nothing else. Still, if I have a Gut Shot or a Gitaxian Probe or something, that's almost two 2/2s for free.

And yeah, Snapcaster Mage isn't happening. I don't have THAT much money. Maybe if I get lucky in trades or opening a pack or something...



Kind of! I'll be using some Phyrexian commons until they rotate out, but for the most part I'm just trying to build a deck that wouldn't completely fall apart the moment the rotation happens.

Any time man, any time. But yeah, Negate should probably be either Psychic Barrier or Essence Scatter. Creatures are a much bigger problem than spells. And on Talrand, I think he'll manage to be surprising and I definitely want to know how he turns out if you get a chance to play him, but I stand by 4 being too many. Good luck with this Elagune, it's pretty good for what I assume is your first go at deck-building.

[9mm]

Why Elixir of Immortality? Seems weak and doesn't really do anything related to your strategy. Better to play a removal spell like Victim of Night, Tragic Slip, or Murder since you currently have no way to actually beat any problem creatures.

Also, only 18 lands is INCREDIBLY sketchy with no cantrips or ways to fix your mana whatsoever. I definitely suggest increasing to 22 at minimum and probably adding some Thought Scours and/or Think Twices to help smooth out your mana draws.

elixir is there because the deck is really reliant at heading off threats with duress, dispise, and my counter spells and I own no snap-casters, so exlir becomes "pay 3, get your spells back." I really wish I had space for ways to just go digging through my graveyard to get spells, but they're pretty much constantly out of my price range. Card draw would be nice, but well, I have really only 6 open slots and your land advice eats 4. would you feel cutting all bounce for removal + murder of crows work?

Unsummon > Vapor snag because I own unsummon, otherwise I agree.

[Lord Seth]

Is this like how if someone generates a million tokens and someone else resolves Scrambleverse (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=220300), the game basically goes to time because they have to somehow randomly determine who gains control of each token?

The 4 Horsemen isn't banned, you just can't feasibly win a tournament with it. You will accumulate too many Slow Play warnings to win the tournament.Really? I mean, High Tide has a fairly lengthy turn when it goes off, and that sometimes wins tournaments.

[The Extinguisher]

Is this like how if someone generates a million tokens and someone else resolves Scrambleverse (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=220300), the game basically goes to time because they have to somehow randomly determine who gains control of each token?

The 4 Horsemen isn't banned, you just can't feasibly win a tournament with it. You will accumulate too many Slow Play warnings to win the tournament.

If every token is the same, couldn't you just do up a distribution and randomize it that way? Would be easier than doing a flip for each permanent.

I mean, you still have to use a computer, but at least it's faster.

[Meta]

Kind of! I'll be using some Phyrexian commons until they rotate out, but for the most part I'm just trying to build a deck that wouldn't completely fall apart the moment the rotation happens.

As long as it's backed up by other more direct counters, you might really enjoy Redirect. It will often be dead against very pure control decks and sucks against board wipes (but ideally they're losing cards in that too) but against 'balanced' it can often be pretty nasty. I admit it's more fun that strictly practical though.

If you're running Memory Adept, Jace's Phantasm might have a home. You can always thought scour your opponent in a pinch too.

[raymundo]

Is somebody interested in playing via Cockatrice or is there some kind of playgroup already? I'd like to test my deck with some decent people ;)

[tgva8889]

elixir is there because the deck is really reliant at heading off threats with duress, dispise, and my counter spells and I own no snap-casters, so exlir becomes "pay 3, get your spells back." I really wish I had space for ways to just go digging through my graveyard to get spells, but they're pretty much constantly out of my price range. Card draw would be nice, but well, I have really only 6 open slots and your land advice eats 4. would you feel cutting all bounce for removal + murder of crows work?

Unsummon > Vapor snag because I own unsummon, otherwise I agree.

But you don't actually get them back. You just shuffle them into your deck, enabling you to possibly draw them again. Instead, you could just be playing more spells. I mean, unless you're plan is just to answer all of their cards and eventually deck them. But since you're playing creatures, I thought your plan was to attack them to death.

I suggested a Common that will let you get spells you want out of your graveyard: Archaeomancer (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=265722).

I would just straight cut some combination of 4 cards from Duress and Despise. They're really weak late-game and you don't really have time to cast that many early. They're not universally useful and you don't actually want them in most matches.

You have to cut something for lands, because you just don't have enough to cast your spells in any reasonable time period. You have no cantrips to draw more lands and no other cards that help you get mana.


Really? I mean, High Tide has a fairly lengthy turn when it goes off, and that sometimes wins tournaments.

The actual act of performing the combo is an infinitely looping action that you must perform over and over. Since the action doesn't advance the game state every time and you are going to perform it an indefinite number of times (because of the way the combo works, you can need to perform it anywhere between 10 and infinity times), performing the action is Slow Play and can/will result in a warning for Slow Play at any competitive-RL event.

High Tide doesn't require repeating an infinitely looping action, so unless you spend too much time thinking between actions on your combo turn, you probably aren't going to get very many Slow Play warnings playing it.

It's specifically that the combo requires an infinitely looping action and can't be short-cut that makes it prone to Slow Play warnings.


If every token is the same, couldn't you just do up a distribution and randomize it that way? Would be easier than doing a flip for each permanent.

I mean, you still have to use a computer, but at least it's faster.

I mean, if you're going to carry around a computer and have the required knowledge, sure, I guess? I don't have the required knowledge to confirm or deny this.

I'm pretty sure you can't have a computer on the table during a tournament match, though. Not sure how you'd get this to work. You'd probably have to call a judge to resolve the Scrambleverse, in any case.

[Lord Seth]

Are there any Instants or Sorceries in Standard that do something like Oblivion Ring? I ask this because I want permanent removal in my UW Delver deck, but I'd prefer an Instant or Sorcery for better Delver synergy. The only thing I can think of is Banishing Stroke, though I'm not sure if that'd be a better choice due to it being less versatile in when you can use it.

[IcemanJRC]

I assure you if there was it would be in use. O-Ring is the best O-Ring around, sorry.

[Meta]

Are there any Instants or Sorceries in Standard that do something like Oblivion Ring? I ask this because I want permanent removal in my UW Delver deck, but I'd prefer an Instant or Sorcery for better Delver synergy. The only thing I can think of is Banishing Stroke, though I'm not sure if that'd be a better choice due to it being less versatile in when you can use it.

I can't think of anything better than O-Ring.

Celestial Purge requires colors, Disperse just returns to hand.. yea the others seem even worse.

[tgva8889]

I wouldn't main deck or sideboard O-ring in UW Delver anyways. Is an effect that can answer Creatures, Artifacts, AND Enchantments necessary?

[Lord Seth]

I wouldn't main deck or sideboard O-ring in UW Delver anyways. Is an effect that can answer Creatures, Artifacts, AND Enchantments necessary?I think so; otherwise you really don't have much of a way to deal with some things. Oh, and Oblivion Ring can hit Planeswalkers also.

Here's my deck, for the record:

Lands: 20
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Seachrome Coast
2 Plains
7 Island
1 Cavern of Souls
2 Moorland Haunt

Creatures: 16
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Phantasmal Image
2 Restoration Angel

Spells: 20
3 Mana Leak
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Vapor Snag
2 Gut Shot
2 Faith's Shield
1 Mutagenic Growth

Artifacts/Enchantments: 4
2 Runechanter's Pike
2 Oblivion Ring

Sideboard: 15
2 Mental Misstep
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of War and Peace
2 Ratchet Bomb
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Celestial Purge
1 Dismember
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Mana Leak

It's performed pretty well so far. I've been thinking of replacing the Mana Leak in the sideboard with a Dissipate...thoughts?

[tgva8889]

I mean, the general answer to Planeswalkers is to just go kill them. Reclamation Angel, for example, is an awesome answer to many Planeswalkers, as is Geist of St. Traft.

This is generally the answer that Delver employs; make powerful threats, kill them before they have a chance to make any threats of their own. Most decks don't end up playing Oblivion Rings main deck because, as you've mentioned, they're not Instants or Sorceries (which weakens Snapcaster and Delver which are, let's be honest, the reason you're playing this deck anyways) and the things you're answering with it either don't need to be answered or can be answered with a good offense. That really is the power of UW Delver: sometimes you just kill them and they have the wrong answers.

Your deck reminds me of Yuuya Watanbe's deck (http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/deck/996) that won in GP Manilla.

[IthilanorStPete]

That really is the power of UW Delver: sometimes you just kill them and they have the wrong answers.

Or as Jamie Wakefield put it, "There are no wrong threats, only wrong answers." (I believe it was Wakefield; please correct me if I'm wrong)

[tgva8889]

I prefer to refer to that statement as coming from the wisdom of Sean Plott, aka Day[9], who taught me that the best counter for an unknown strategy is to just go ******* kill them.

[Ninjaman]

I was playing draft at my local store today. I won one of the battles after my opponent had played Nicol Bolas.

[Sith_Happens]

I was playing draft at my local store today. I won one of the battles after my opponent had played Nicol Bolas.

Please tell me you Oblivion Ringed him. That would be hilarious.:smallbiggrin:

[tgva8889]

What would be even more hilarious is if he somehow gained control of him.

No, no, wait. If he played his own Nicol Bolas, then proceeded to win the game shortly thereafter once his opponent's bomb was down. :smallbiggrin:

But yes, Oblivion Ring sounds like something that would happen. I'd be super impressed if you attacked Nicol Bolas to death, though.

[Cogwheel]

What would be even more hilarious is if he somehow gained control of him.

No, no, wait. If he played his own Nicol Bolas, then proceeded to win the game shortly thereafter once his opponent's bomb was down. :smallbiggrin:

But yes, Oblivion Ring sounds like something that would happen. I'd be super impressed if you attacked Nicol Bolas to death, though.

Alternatively, he forced Vindicate into M13 and Standard through sheer force of will and used it to blow up Bolas.

[tgva8889]

That would be epic.

They should reprint Vindicate in a product of some kind. There needs to be more copies of that card going around, even if it's not legal in Standard.

[Ninjaman]

No nothing that cool.
Here is what happened:
He was at 3 i had Rhox faithmender with divine favor and a vile rebirth token with dark favor.
He played bolas stole my faithmender
End of turn i played another vile rebirth
On my turn i played a dark favor on the other token then swung with both.

[Giegue]

Well, we ARE going to get return to Ravnica soon, so Vindicate may see reprint there, though if it does I fully expect it to be mythic. Also, since we where on the topic of Nicol Bolas, I may as well post a casual FNM deck I've been experimenting with that makes use of the walker....just a word of warning this deck is VERY experimental and, well, just plain ODD...

Creatures:
2x Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon
4x Phyrexian Crusader
3x Ichorclaw Myr
4x Plague Myr
4x Necropede

Sorceries/Instants:
2x Black Sun's Zenith
3x Forbidden Alchemy
3x Volt Charge
2x Negate

Plansewalkers:
1x Nicol Bolas, Plansewalker
3x Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas

Artifacts:
2x Throne of Geth
3x Sphere of Suns

Lands:
4x Inkmoth Nexus
2x Sulfur Falls
3x Dragonskull Summit
3x Drowned Catacomb
1x Moutain
4x Island
7x Swamp

Sideboard:
2x Phyrexian Metamorph
2x Corrupted Conscience
3x Go for the Throat
3x Tragic Slip
3x Virulent Wound
2x Ratchet Bomb

Yes. I did it. I made a deck that runs both Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas AND Nicol Bolas, Plansewalker. It's not great, and Bolas himself adds almost nothing to the deck beyond flavor and his mere presence but this deck is not meant to be a tier 1, tourney smashing machine. It's just a casual deck to occasionally have fun with at FNM. Too bad it's going to rotate soon. Oh well. Just thought I'd post it up because it's, well....ODD.

[Giegue]

Browser Error, please deleat.

[Binks]

then swung with both.
Why didn't he block with the faithmender? Even if the other token got through for 5 lifelink isn't a triggered ability anymore, so he'd be at 2 post-block (3 starting, -5 from one token, +2 doubled to 4 from rhox's lifelink). I've got to be missing something, and you've got me curious now.

Here's a question for the more tournament oriented out there. I went to the pre-release, had a good time (though my first try at a deck was terrible. I was never so glad for the 'can sideboard at anytime' rule for pre-releases as when I completely changed my deck between round 1 and round 2), but left with some curiosity.

There were around 60-70 people there, and there were prizes for top 13 (might have been 14, but no more than that) as well as a cut to the top 8. I went 2-1 for matches (0-2, then 2-0 and 2-0) but didn't make it to any of the prize levels. Is it normal to have almost a quarter of the tournament participants do better than that? I know there could have been IDs for some 2-0-1's, and there were a larger than normal number of draws due to time I witnessed, but it seemed strange to me at the time. I don't go to many tournaments, so maybe this is normal and I've never realized it before (since I almost never do that well, usually 1-2 or 2-1 with 0-2, 2-1, 2-1 or the like), but it just made me go :smallconfused:.

[Zombimode]

There were around 60-70 people there, and there were prizes for top 13 (might have been 14, but no more than that) as well as a cut to the top 8. I went 2-1 for matches (0-2, then 2-0 and 2-0) but didn't make it to any of the prize levels. Is it normal to have almost a quarter of the tournament participants do better than that? I know there could have been IDs for some 2-0-1's, and there were a larger than normal number of draws due to time I witnessed, but it seemed strange to me at the time. I don't go to many tournaments, so maybe this is normal and I've never realized it before (since I almost never do that well, usually 1-2 or 2-1 with 0-2, 2-1, 2-1 or the like), but it just made me go :smallconfused:.

I'm confused. There were 60-70 players and only 3 rounds? The recommended number of matches is 6. What happened?

[9mm]

when does M12 rotate out again, keep seeing m13 rooms with m12 cards...

[IthilanorStPete]

when does M12 rotate out again, keep seeing m13 rooms with m12 cards...

When Return to Ravnica comes out this fall. Scars of Mirrodin, Mirrodin Besieged, and New Phyrexia will also be rotating out.

[IcemanJRC]

Why didn't he block with the faithmender? Even if the other token got through for 5 lifelink isn't a triggered ability anymore, so he'd be at 2 post-block (3 starting, -5 from one token, +2 doubled to 4 from rhox's lifelink). I've got to be missing something, and you've got me curious now.

Here's a question for the more tournament oriented out there. I went to the pre-release, had a good time (though my first try at a deck was terrible. I was never so glad for the 'can sideboard at anytime' rule for pre-releases as when I completely changed my deck between round 1 and round 2), but left with some curiosity.

There were around 60-70 people there, and there were prizes for top 13 (might have been 14, but no more than that) as well as a cut to the top 8. I went 2-1 for matches (0-2, then 2-0 and 2-0) but didn't make it to any of the prize levels. Is it normal to have almost a quarter of the tournament participants do better than that? I know there could have been IDs for some 2-0-1's, and there were a larger than normal number of draws due to time I witnessed, but it seemed strange to me at the time. I don't go to many tournaments, so maybe this is normal and I've never realized it before (since I almost never do that well, usually 1-2 or 2-1 with 0-2, 2-1, 2-1 or the like), but it just made me go :smallconfused:.

I agree with Zombimode. There is a problem if you had that many people and so few rounds.

[Gauntlet]

Re:tournament rankings:
0-2, 2-1, 2-1 should be rated higher than 0-2, 2-0, 2-0, I believe.This is because the tie breakers after points on OGW% (Opponent's Games Won) which go up if you 2-1'd them. I'mnot entirely certain on that though, but it might be why you didn't get anything.

At our prerelease, the store organises things so prizes are more evenly spread. I believe first place usually gets ~9 packs, but everyone gets at least one (we had about 100 people, and six rounds). The evening prerelease had fixed support, so everyone got two boosters there regardless of how well they did. Everyone was aware of that beforehand though, so no-one was complaining.

As for my current decks, I am very tempted to build UR aggro now. This is mainly because I want to use the Hellriders that I am planning on cutting from my Pod deck once it becomes Naya Aggro (still trying to trade for the two Huntmasters I still need), and Hellrider + Tandem Lookout is a combo I really really want to try.

[Binks]

Re:tournament rankings:
0-2, 2-1, 2-1 should be rated higher than 0-2, 2-0, 2-0, I believe.This is because the tie breakers after points on OGW% (Opponent's Games Won) which go up if you 2-1'd them. I'mnot entirely certain on that though, but it might be why you didn't get anything.
That makes sense, good to know.

I thought all tournaments (or at least casual tournaments) were 3 rounds then top 8, at least that's how it has always been at my FLGS. More than 3 rounds would take forever.

[IthilanorStPete]

Re:tournament rankings:
0-2, 2-1, 2-1 should be rated higher than 0-2, 2-0, 2-0, I believe.This is because the tie breakers after points on OGW% (Opponent's Games Won) which go up if you 2-1'd them. I'mnot entirely certain on that though, but it might be why you didn't get anything.

OMW% is the first tiebreaker, though. As several people have said, 3 rounds is nowhere near enough for that large of a group.

Also, Hellrider+Tandem Lookout is nasty. I approve.

[IcemanJRC]

Technically it's the Tournament Organizers discretion I believe. But when you only do three rounds you have things like what happened to you, totally reasonable records getting shafted because of the sheer number of people who placed similarly. I almost always play the appropriate number of rounds. Actually that's how I top 8'd the M12 Prerelease, we had something like 6 or 7 rounds and started at midnight, most people left. It was kinda amusing.

[IthilanorStPete]

3 rounds is the minimum to be sanctioned; otherwise, it's at the TO's discretion, although the MTR recommends more rounds based on the number of players. If you want to know, the formula is ceiling (log base 2 (number of players))

[IcemanJRC]

3 rounds is the minimum to be sanctioned; otherwise, it's at the TO's discretion, although the MTR recommends more rounds based on the number of players. If you want to know, the formula is ceiling (log base 2 (number of players))

Well I knew there were recommendations, I got to learn about those when I was just a little tyke, but thank you for the formula.

[Lord Seth]

After some pondering, I did take out the Oblivion Rings from the maindeck. They're still going into the sideboard though.

Tough part is figuring out what to replace them with. One I replaced with Divine Deflection (I think it works as a 1-of). The other I currently have a Mana Leak in, though I'm not sure it's worth it as a 4-of maindeck when Cavern of Souls is around. Maybe a third Runechanter's Pike?

[tgva8889]

I guess it depends. What permanents did you tend to Oblivion Ring most often? If they were Planeswalkers, then Mana Leak is a pretty good choice. Sure, you won't counter creatures often, but you'll counter more Planeswalkers.

[Ninjaman]

Why didn't he block with the faithmender? Even if the other token got through for 5 lifelink isn't a triggered ability anymore, so he'd be at 2 post-block (3 starting, -5 from one token, +2 doubled to 4 from rhox's lifelink). I've got to be missing something, and you've got me curious now.

He did block, i guess the Rhox wasn't enchanted and that was just how i remembered it.

[9mm]

it turns out there is not a card that deals damage when an enchantment enters the battlefield, this makes me sad.

[Androgeus]

it turns out there is not a card that deals damage when an enchantment enters the battlefield, this makes me sad.

You could use Opalescence and something that deals damage when creatures enter. This is a totally optimal thing to do.

[IcemanJRC]

Opalescense (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=15142) + Warstorm Surge (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=228796)?

[Litewarior]

You could use Opalescence and something that deals damage when creatures enter. This is a totally optimal thing to do.

I don't think that would work, if I'm not mistaken, the enchantment would enter the battlefield, and after it was on the field, it would become a creature, not before it enters, and as such, the effect would not take place.

[IthilanorStPete]

I don't think that would work, if I'm not mistaken, the enchantment would enter the battlefield, and after it was on the field, it would become a creature, not before it enters, and as such, the effect would not take place.

No, it works. As soon as it enters the battlefield, it's an Enchantment Creature; with static continuous abilities like Opalescence's, or stuff like Curse of Death's Hold, there's no point at which the affected object is on the battlefield but not objected.

[9mm]

You could use Opalescence and something that deals damage when creatures enter. This is a totally optimal thing to do.

so legacy/vintage only = deck idea to slow to begin with. I'd never have the chance to combo out.


Opalescense (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=15142) + Warstorm Surge (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=228796)?
pandemonium is a whole mana cheaper. but again, this take a would be 4 card combo to 5 cards that require a minimum of 4 open mana over 3 turns to lay the ground work. now there's enough draw power around that you can almost always combo out on turn 6-7: but you'd be dead by then.

[Zavoniki]

So I was playing Duels of the Planeswalkers 2013, specifically the challenges and having quite a bit of fun with them until I got to the second to last one.

Its a long story(mainly because I need to explain the challenge) so I'll spoiler tag it:

So this is the challenge:

You have 26 Islands(all untapped) in play and an Archaeomancer (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=265722).

Your hand is:
Spectral Flight (http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=230775)
Rite of Replication (http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=195630)
Talrand, Sky Summoner (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=253701)
Volition Reigns (http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=209001)
Aether Adept (http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=227222)

Your Graveyard:
2 Rite of Replication (http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=195630)
Hysterical Blindness (http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=234433)
Unsummon (http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/details.aspx?name=UNSUMMON)
Reality Spasm (http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=193652)
Diminish (http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=208226)
Inundate (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=inundate)
Downpour (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=276208)

Your Opponent is at 6 and has:
24 Forests(all untapped) a Acidic Slime (http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=226906) tapped, a Ursapine (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=URSAPINE) tapped, and Nature's Revolt (http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=25592) in play with no hand.

The solution I thought of:
Cast Spectral Flight on one of your Islands(you have 23 lands untapped(well 24 but the spectral flighted one needs to attack). Cast Volition Reigns on one of your opponents Forests(17). Cast Aether Adept returning Archaeomancer to your hand(13). Cast Archaeomancer targetting Reality Spasm(9). Cast Rite of Replication targeting the opponents Ursapine(5). Activate the Ursapine's ability with your Forest, making your spectral flighted Island a 5/5. Cast Reality Spasm for 1(2) untapping your forest. Activate Ursapine's ability one more time making your land a 6/6. Kill your opponent.

However if you Volition Reigns a forest, it has a summoning sickness and cannot tap. Which would be fine if you could not clearly see(as Duels shows whether or not something has summoning sickness by animating a little whirlpool above it) that none of your opponents 24 forests have summoning sickness.

I was thoroughly annoyed by this as hear I was, thinking I had solved the challenge, and the game just said NOPE. Can't do that. Try something else. I've been frustrated by the challenges before, but that has always been because I tried something and it didn't quite get there. But this... this was annoying.

Anyway the real solution involves casting a bunch of rite of replications to eventually give yourself an Ursapine, 5 forests, and an acidic slime. You slime the Nature's Revolt and pump your non-summoning sick archaeomancer 5 times for lethal.
Which in my totally unbiased opinion is not nearly as cool as my solution. :smalltongue:

Anyway, figured I would share this with you. Duels 2013 is surprisingly good and I'm still having fun, but its a bit unpolished in places(this is the only time that's actually come out in gameplay though). Simply replacing the Reality Spasm with say, Gigadrowse (http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/details.aspx?name=gigadrowse), would keep the "trap" card of the X-Tapper there without leading to another solution.


tl;dr I thought I solved the challenge but was stopped by something that was untrue about the game state.

[Gauntlet]

The game state was fine. A creature can't attack unless you controlled it continuously since the beginning of your last upkeep. If you steal something, it gets summoning sickness again.

[Androgeus]

The game state was fine. A creature can't attack unless you controlled it continuously since the beginning of your last upkeep. If you steal something, it gets summoning sickness again.

I was about to say he took a land and thus shouldn't be subject to summoning sickness, but then thought I should read more, and yhea the lands are creatures due to Nature's Revolt and thus are summoning sick.

In other news, I just got back from a m13 draft which I came in joint 1st :smallbiggrin:

[Gauntlet]

In other news, I just got back from a m13 draft which I came in joint 1st :smallbiggrin:

What did you draft? I have had the best results with evasive aggro cards + auras (Tormented soul is bonkers if you can give him a bit of power, like the Lifelink enchant, or the black ring, and Harbor Bandit is good on his own) but I still want to try green (Serra Spider and Rancor are really really strong cards).

[Meta]

What did you draft? I have had the best results with evasive aggro cards + auras (Tormented soul is bonkers if you can give him a bit of power, like the Lifelink enchant, or the black ring, and Harbor Bandit is good on his own) but I still want to try green (Serra Spider and Rancor are really really strong cards).

Roaring Primadox has been doing all kinds of heavy lifting even without looking at splashes.

[Androgeus]

What did you draft? I have had the best results with evasive aggro cards + auras (Tormented soul is bonkers if you can give him a bit of power, like the Lifelink enchant, or the black ring, and Harbor Bandit is good on his own) but I still want to try green (Serra Spider and Rancor are really really strong cards).

I played GW erm midrange(?) I guess. I won by turning guys sideways. This was my deck:
1xBond Beetle
2x Prey Upon
1x Rancor (definitely awesome)

1x Deadly Recluse
1x Farseek
1x Flinthoof Boar (it came down to this or a 2nd plument, thought a bear was better. Never drew it thought)
1x Quiriron Dryad (should proabbly have been in a less green heavy deck, but otherwise seemed cool)
1x Plumet
1x Ring of Kalonia
1x Ring of Thune (Both rings were cool)

1x Attended Knight
1x Oblivion Ring
1x Centaur Courser

1x Divine Verdict
1x Pillarfield Ox
1x Prized Elephant (definitely a prize, I think most my winds came from this)
1x Primal Huntbeast
1x Roaring Primadox

1x Battleflight Eagle (Fun with primadox)
1x Serra Angel
1x Acidic Slime
1x Garruk's Packleader

1x Sunpetal Grove
9x Forest
7x Plains


I would say that I got away with any bad choices in my deck because the other players were less skilled than me, and I'd only say I'm a bad to moderate player.

[Gauntlet]

Spoilers from San Diego Comicon panel:

FTV: Realms
Glacial Chasm (new art)
Forbidden Orchard (new art)
Grove of the Burnwillows
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Dryad Arbor (new art)
Murmuring Bosk

Duel Decks: Izzet vs. Golgari
Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind (the old legend)
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord (RTR preview, GGBB Mythic Legendary Creature- Zombie Elf Wizard)
5 other RTR cards

Return to Ravnica
5 Guilds: Azorius, Izzet, Golgari, Selesnya, Rakdos
Mythic Legendary creature for each guild
Jarad
new Niv-Mizzet
new Isperia
new Rakdos
new legend for Selesnya- '3 as one' trinity of dryads
Large set

'Line'
Name: Gatecrash
Location: Ravnica again
other 5 guilds: Dimir, Simic, Gruul, Boros, Orzhov
More mythic legends:
new Borborygmos
new Ghost Council
new legend for Boros- angel (not Feather or Razia)
new legend for Simic- merfolk (female, merfolk are on ravnica now, there is a reason but we don't know it yet)
new legend for Dimir- shapeshifter
Large set (!)
Will be drafted Gatecrash-Gatecrash-Gatecrash until Sinker comes out
Shocklands hinted at EVEN MORE but not actually confirmed

'Sinker'

Location: Ravnica
All 10 guilds
Will be drafted Sinker- Gatecrash- RTR

Prereleases
At release- choose a guild, then receive a pack containing:
5 RTR or Gatecrash packs
1 pack containing ONLY your guild's cards
1 Promo for your guild- which you CAN play in your sealed deck
Sticker
Letter from guild leader
Guild-specific achievement card

Other releases
No New Premium Deck Series
Commander Armory: new commander oversized cards/foils/reprints/other fun CMD stuff

I think that's it. Some interesting stuff.

[Zavoniki]

The game state was fine. A creature can't attack unless you controlled it continuously since the beginning of your last upkeep. If you steal something, it gets summoning sickness again.

Well... That is a rather obscure rule that I am glad I now know. And that clears that up. Thank you. I am much less annoyed now.

[Lhurgyof]

Spoilers from San Diego Comicon panel:

FTV: Realms
Glacial Chasm (new art)
Forbidden Orchard (new art)
Grove of the Burnwillows
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Dryad Arbor (new art)
Murmuring Bosk

Duel Decks: Izzet vs. Golgari
Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind (the old legend)
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord (RTR preview, GGBB Mythic Legendary Creature- Zombie Elf Wizard)
5 other RTR cards

Return to Ravnica
5 Guilds: Azorius, Izzet, Golgari, Selesnya, Rakdos
Mythic Legendary creature for each guild
Jarad
new Niv-Mizzet
new Isperia
new Rakdos
new legend for Selesnya- '3 as one' trinity of dryads
Large set

'Line'
Name: Gatecrash
Location: Ravnica again
other 5 guilds: Dimir, Simic, Gruul, Boros, Orzhov
More mythic legends:
new Borborygmos
new Ghost Council
new legend for Boros- angel (not Feather or Razia)
new legend for Simic- merfolk (female, merfolk are on ravnica now, there is a reason but we don't know it yet)
new legend for Dimir- shapeshifter
Large set (!)
Will be drafted Gatecrash-Gatecrash-Gatecrash until Sinker comes out
Shocklands hinted at EVEN MORE but not actually confirmed

'Sinker'

Location: Ravnica
All 10 guilds
Will be drafted Sinker- Gatecrash- RTR

Prereleases
At release- choose a guild, then receive a pack containing:
5 RTR or Gatecrash packs
1 pack containing ONLY your guild's cards
1 Promo for your guild- which you CAN play in your sealed deck
Sticker
Letter from guild leader
Guild-specific achievement card

Other releases
No New Premium Deck Series
Commander Armory: new commander oversized cards/foils/reprints/other fun CMD stuff

I think that's it. Some interesting stuff.

FtV: Realms is looking slightly dissapointing so far...

A bunch of cards that stink, I already have, or have subpar new art. Urborg is cool but meh. Where's my foil Maze, damnit? :smallannoyed:

[tgva8889]

On the Return to Ravnica spoilers
Pretty sure the "3 Dryads as 1" is actually just Chorus of the Conclave (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247374), except maybe a new card.

In other news, I was wrong about enemy color-block (though I really wish they'd do it sometime), draft format looks awesome.

[Octopus Jack]

So continuing the theme of first times from my last post I did my first Draft last night and did alright.... I think. I had to leave a round early as we didn't start drafting until an hour after we should have and I need to get a train back from events so I only played 3 rounds and got 1 draw, 1 win 2-1 and 1 loss 1-2. All the players there had drafted before which put me at a slight disadvantage though from what I heard people talking about before drafting started not many people wanted to play red so I decided I'd try and nab the cards for an aggressive red deck. I ended up going Red with a tiny splash of green, getting Krenko early secured the idea that I'd be playing red and trying to get extra goblins.

Due to luckily picking one of the same colours as I did in the pre-release I had some insight to what's good in that colour for limited format but still felt really overwhelmed by the whole drafting process and what's good in limited. Ah well I suppose with practice I'll get better and I enjoyed the whole affair with my planning on building a standard constructed goblin deck going ahead and the player that I think went on to come first saying if I needed specific cards for it he'd get hold of them for me. :smallsmile:

[Nightson]

You may find this a helpful guide to getting a handle of drafting.

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/fundamentals/12549_Learning_How_To_Draft.html

[Androgeus]

Just a couple things gauntlet missed

RTR
New Jace! (well duh, he is on some of the art work). There will be 2 planeswalkers in RTR

'Line' (is it spoilers to call a set by it's actual name once it has been announced?)
There is going to be a new Gideon as well. There will be 2 planeswalkers in Gatecrash

[Gauntlet]

On the Return to Ravnica spoilers
Pretty sure the "3 Dryads as 1" is actually just Chorus of the Conclave (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247374), except maybe a new card.

In other news, I was wrong about enemy color-block (though I really wish they'd do it sometime), draft format looks awesome.

The three dryads very very specifically described as 'not the Chorus of the Conclave, who are no longer with us'.

[Science Officer]

Return To Ravnica:
The Magic: The Gathering Facebook page has 18 photos listed Return to Ravnica Block Art Previews.
The first is Jace standing with Niv Mizzet, which we've already seen.
Then, there's a door or gate or something with the 10 guild symbols on it, followed by 5 beautiful landscapes, and 11 depictions of creatures and characters. One of which is Gideon standing with an angel and sporting a Boros symbol on his belt. You should be able to see them here (https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10151907751520307.868543.201120755306&type=3).

[Penguinizer]

it turns out there is not a card that deals damage when an enchantment enters the battlefield, this makes me sad.

Enchantress uses Words of War combined with the usual Enchantresses. It's the closest you can get.

[IthilanorStPete]

I'm judging at TCG Orlando! I'll be judging feature matches for rounds 6 and 9, so look for me!

[Bucky]

Faith's Reward + Archaeomancer + Bloodthrone Vampire + 2 Torch Fiends + 2 Gilded Lotus? Is that insanely complicated enough to quality? Archaeomancer + Faith's reward can probably enable dozens of infinite combos.


Yeah. You can replace the Gilded Lotus and Torch Fiends with Omniscience to bring it down to 4 cards.

[The Extinguisher]

Dryad arbor is beautiful. I might actually buy a FtV this time around.

[Mr._Blinky]

So does anyone have any idea when FtV: Realms is going to go on preorder for most places? I really want to get one, but I get the feeling it'll sell out really fast and I don't want to miss the date.

[Lord Seth]

Naturally the early previews tell me nothing about what I care about most, whether the shocklands and/or Dark Confidant will be reprinted.

[tgva8889]

Pretty sure Dark Confidant shouldn't be reprinted, as the card is probably too good for Standard. But maybe they'll try it. It's really not the kind of card I want to see in a format where everyone can play whatever colors they want and all the cards have lower converted mana costs because they have more different colors of mana symbols than most, but I suppose it might not be that bad.

[9mm]

got bored, made deck


4 Door to Nothingness
4 Abundant Growth
4 Faithless Looting
4 Fog Bank
4 Farseek
4 Wild Guess
4 Liliana's Shade
4 Fog
4 Evolving Wilds
3 Forest
3 Plains
3 Swamp
3 Mountain
3 Island
4 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
4 Oblivion Ring


so what do I cut for MOAR RAMP?

[tgva8889]

Liliana's Shade is an awful ramp spell (in that it doesn't actually ramp at all). You probably want to play a different one if this is your plan. Gem of Becoming also seems like an obvious inclusion; fixing for 3 colors at once seems awesome.

Wild Guess is pretty bad in this 5-color deck. I feel like Amass the Components would do what you want better, though even Divination seems like it would be far superior to a RR spell that doesn't net you cards.

You also probably want to adjust your land counts and match up your numbers. You again don't have enough lands in your deck for me to reasonably expect you'll cast anything; 19 lands is just not enough in a deck that needs to reach 10 lands to win.

[9mm]

Liliana's Shade is an awful ramp spell (in that it doesn't actually ramp at all). You probably want to play a different one if this is your plan. Gem of Becoming also seems like an obvious inclusion; fixing for 3 colors at once seems awesome.

Wild Guess is pretty bad in this 5-color deck. I feel like Amass the Components would do what you want better, though even Divination seems like it would be far superior to a RR spell that doesn't net you cards.

You also probably want to adjust your land counts and match up your numbers. You again don't have enough lands in your deck for me to reasonably expect you'll cast anything; 19 lands is just not enough in a deck that needs to reach 10 lands to win.
Ironically land drought has been my least common problem. Though I definitely agree with -shade +gem (I forgot gem existed o_0). Guess has been an awesome card filter but I'll try amass, though that throws alot of filter and draw late into the game when I rather just sit with mana open for fogs.

[tgva8889]

I'm also not sure about your Garruk as your specific Planeswalker of choice, though I guess among the Standard-legal ones he's probably the best. The triple-green cost is a bit questionable.

[9mm]

I'm also not sure about your Garruk as your specific Planeswalker of choice, though I guess among the Standard-legal ones he's probably the best. The triple-green cost is a bit questionable.

I hate that tripple green cost, but constant blockers, draw, and an alternate win condition? YES PLEASE. Though I suppose laboratory maniac could work too. :smallcool:

[Lord Seth]

Pretty sure Dark Confidant shouldn't be reprinted, as the card is probably too good for Standard.I don't know. It obviously didn't break Standard during its original printing. And Wizards of the Coast has claimed that they will reprint Modern staples. And right now I believe the most expensive cards in that format are Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant, and the shocklands (in that order). Considering Dark Confidant was originally printed in Ravnica, it's hard to see what would be a better time. Though it's possible they may want to space out the reprints...

Real question is when/how Tarmogoyf is going to be reprinted. Probably not in Return to Ravnica though.

[tgva8889]

I don't know. It obviously didn't break Standard during its original printing. And Wizards of the Coast has claimed that they will reprint Modern staples. And right now I believe the most expensive cards in that format are Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant, and the shocklands (in that order). Considering Dark Confidant was originally printed in Ravnica, it's hard to see what would be a better time. Though it's possible they may want to space out the reprints...

Real question is when/how Tarmogoyf is going to be reprinted. Probably not in Return to Ravnica though.

All I know is a Standard environment with Snapcaster Mage and Dark Confidant doesn't sound like a fun Standard environment.

[Sith_Happens]

I don't know. It obviously didn't break Standard during its original printing. And Wizards of the Coast has claimed that they will reprint Modern staples. And right now I believe the most expensive cards in that format are Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant, and the shocklands (in that order). Considering Dark Confidant was originally printed in Ravnica, it's hard to see what would be a better time. Though it's possible they may want to space out the reprints...

I'm just mad that I didn't buy a playset five years ago after my cousin did and we quickly learned just how good it is (especially with Sensei's Divining Top, and despite the fact that whenever he didn't get a Top back then he seemed to almost invariably pull a Kokusho with Confidant:smallbiggrin:).


Real question is when/how Tarmogoyf is going to be reprinted. Probably not in Return to Ravnica though.

My guess is that it'll be in something other than an expansion set, so as to not end up in Standard. Either that, or it will be a mythic and therefore barely go down in price at all.:smallsigh:

[9mm]

when it comes to modern some staples will probably just not get re-printed. I mean where in a standard format where giant growth isn't legal, and giant spider is about to rotate. I see goyf and dark confidant being two to bite the dust, or replaced with less insane versions.

[IthilanorStPete]

when it comes to modern some staples will probably just not get re-printed. I mean where in a standard format where giant growth isn't legal, and giant spider is about to rotate. I see goyf and dark confidant being two to bite the dust, or replaced with less insane versions.

The thing is, Modern doesn't rotate, it's technically an Eternal format. Goyf and Bob are never going to rotate out or go away, so there'll be always be demand for them...and a high price tag will continue to raise the entry barrier to Modern.

[Sith_Happens]

when it comes to modern some staples will probably just not get re-printed. I mean where in a standard format where giant growth isn't legal, and giant spider is about to rotate. I see goyf and dark confidant being two to bite the dust, or replaced with less insane versions.

There are ways to reprint a card that don't make it Standard legal. Just saying.

[Penguinizer]

There are ways to reprint a card that don't make it Standard legal. Just saying.

You either print it in a From the Vault set which in no way solves the problem since the box set will be rare and have a hiked up price or in a pre built deck (like commander) which means the deck will be sold for well over MSRP (like what happened with Scavenging Ooze.

At best it means the cards price will equalize to the MSRP of the product and it'll still be expensive.

[Lord Seth]

My guess is that it'll be in something other than an expansion set, so as to not end up in Standard.Why?

No, seriously, what's wrong with Tarmogoyf entering Standard? And before you say "it's too powerful!" I'd like to point out as far as I can tell it didn't break the format back when it was originally printed (remember, it was Standard legal in the Time Spiral block!), and creatures are generally more powerful now meaning it'd stand out even less.

It's kind of like how at one point Force of Nature was probably considered really good, but nowadays is mediocre compared with cards like Terra Stomper. Or how Mind Twist was once considered so broken it was actually banned in Vintage, but now is unrestricted and barely sees any play.
when it comes to modern some staples will probably just not get re-printed. I mean where in a standard format where giant growth isn't legal, and giant spider is about to rotate. I see goyf and dark confidant being two to bite the dust, or replaced with less insane versions.Uh...huh? Trying to replace them with "less insane" versions (and I wouldn't call them insane anyway, they're not that good) won't change a thing, people will keep playing with the originals. You'd have to print something better to discourage people from playing with them.

[Penguinizer]

Not to mention they already did a less insane Dark Confidant in Dark Tutelage. It was unplayably bad. You can't really change much about Dark Confidant without making it horrible, it's a case of everything slotting together right. Not to mention it's considered fairly niche these days.

[Meta]

Not to mention they already did a less insane Dark Confidant in Dark Tutelage. It was unplayably bad. You can't really change much about Dark Confidant without making it horrible, it's a case of everything slotting together right. Not to mention it's considered fairly niche these days.

Phyrexian Arena seems similar and at a good power level. It's like you took Bob and Blossom and fused them together!

My experience in modern has shown bob to be fairly mainstream, though. GP top 8s would agree on the competitiveness angle, and if the deck has a low curve and is in black, confidant probably makes it better. Heck, burn splashing for him and bump in the night was all the rage.

[tgva8889]

I don't really have a problem with them reprinting Tarmogoyf. Only interesting things could happen if they do that. As long as they don't also reprint the Fetchlands and Tribal and Seals, we'll be fine. Goyf was good in Standard, but I don't think it was ever too good. I mean, you did still play 3/4s for 2 because everything was worse then, but that isn't that...well, okay, it still is kind of ridiculous but it's not gamebreaking. Probably.

I don't think Dark Confidant and Snapcaster Mage being in the same Standard format would be fun. They both work well with similar cards (cheap Instants and Sorceries) and both generate card advantage. That deck sounds like a nightmare aggro-control deck, again, and I just don't think that would be fun. I'd like the top deck to not remind me of the last 3 Standard seasons if possible.

[Penguinizer]

Phyrexian Arena seems similar and at a good power level. It's like you took Bob and Blossom and fused them together!

My experience in modern has shown bob to be fairly mainstream, though. GP top 8s would agree on the competitiveness angle, and if the deck has a low curve and is in black, confidant probably makes it better. Heck, burn splashing for him and bump in the night was all the rage.

The problem with Arena vs. Bob is that Bob is A: 2 mana, B: a 2/1.

It's both faster and has a self contained clock. The life loss is a nonissue. I don't know much about Modern though but in Legacy Bob is only really played in Team America (which isn't really a thing anymore) and maybe UB Faeries (which was thing for all of a really short time). It does see play in some of the more uncommon decks like Deadguy Ale and Team Italia but it's far from being the best card in the deck.

[Binks]

Just had to share, I got to live the dream yesterday. Long story short, Tamiyo's emblem plus Omniscience in play is AWESOME.

Longer Story
Two-Headed Giant, playing for fun before the two other members of our group arrive. I'm piloting my Blue EDH deck, Kami of the Cresent Moon draw-go because I've just put in a bunch of new cards, including Tamiyo and Omniscience. My teammate is piloting his Green Spider ramp deck. Opponents have a G/R allies deck that's been underperforming all night and a W/R metalcraft deck that's notorious within our group for being OP for the decks we play (my blue deck also has the same reputation, so it's OP+Mid vs OP+Mid in terms of team deck balance).

First couple of turns I play a spellskite and sit back on a horde of counterspells. My EDH deck has only 5 counters (Negate, Scatter, Cancel, Rewind, Lay Bare). By turn 3 I'm holding all but Lay Bare. My teammate ramps to 8 mana on turn 5 (growth on turn 2, growth on turn 3, ranger's path [topdecked] on turn 4). Metalcraft opponent goes for a Darksteel plate on turn 3 but I've seen what his deck can do with indestructible creatures so I cancel it.

Turn 5 we untap, me at 5 lands (after drop), teammate at 8 (missed landdrop on turn 4 but pulled 4 from deck). Teammate plays a Caged Sun set to green. I look at my hand, look back at the board, look at my hand, and play Phyrexian Metamorph as a Caged Sun set to blue, leaving 1 island open (2 mana) to counter whatever they play. We pass, opponents do nothing big (ally that makes lands into creatures by tapping and no play from metalcraft who has a lot of red mana but only 1 plains, and plays a lot double and triple white cards).

Untap with 5 islands and a caged sun. Topdeck caged sun. Play it, set to blue. Islands tap for 3 (2 untapped). Teammate throws down 2 sentinel spiders. Pass.

Metalcraft deck gets his 7th land (plains) and goes for a Gisela. Rewind counters it and nets me 6 mana. Allies then goes for a scrapper which I scatter (don't want our caged suns getting blown up).

We untap and I topdeck Tamiyo. Play her and tap biggest threat (turntimber ranger). Ally plays a land and swings for 10.

Opponents have no big plays and pass. I take Tamiyo up to 6 on the ranger again, ally swings and is blocked by lethal but has the giant growth to win that fight (he has 2 titanics in hand for later, and topdecks another giant growth next time around, so we never were really worried about his spiders dying in a fight). W/R metalcraft goes for the sun titan on their turn and I'm countered out (negate in hand). Allies has no play so they pass to us after giving sun titan swiftfoot boots (but not swinging). Spiders naturalizes the boots on endstep.

Tamiyo goes to 7 and the titan is tapped. I play a consecrated sphinx, ally swings and we pass. I draw 4 on their turn. They had no big plays so we start the next turn. Tamiyo hits 8 and titan stays tapped. Tamiyo is joined by Jace (3 cost) who gives everyone a draw (and me 4 extra cards from opponents drawing). Spiders swing and we pass.

Opponents get some threats on the board, metalcraft lays down an elixer and another artifact (and I don't notice that this will give his knight pro-colors until after both resolve, whoops), allies gets a survivalist. Bizarrely the pro-colors knight doesn't swing at Tamiyo. Not sure why, could have been fearing a naturalize on one of the artifacts giving metalcraft.

We untap, I pop Tamiyo for her ultimate and start digging. Divination (which goes back to my hand) shows me Myojin of Seeing Winds, the card I have never lost a game I played him in (of course being a 10 cost hardcast creature that might be more related to getting to 10 than him, but he's still good). I hardcast him, pop his counter for 19 card, and the first one is the one I'm digging for, Omniscience. I play it and that's basically game, I snag all the creatures (reins-ing an artifact so I can snag the pro-colors knight when he loses metalcraft) and they scoop.
Sorry. I normally wouldn't brag about a win (especially not in casual with my second most busted deck) but getting Tamiyo+Omniscience the first time they're in that deck was too awesome not to share.

[Meta]

The problem with Arena vs. Bob is that Bob is A: 2 mana, B: a 2/1.

It's both faster and has a self contained clock. The life loss is a nonissue. I don't know much about Modern though but in Legacy Bob is only really played in Team America (which isn't really a thing anymore) and maybe UB Faeries (which was thing for all of a really short time). It does see play in some of the more uncommon decks like Deadguy Ale and Team Italia but it's far from being the best card in the deck.

I'm not saying Arena is as good as Bob just that it's similar and at a good power level. It's certainly playable in a Standard-esque environment or filling in for bob in any casual deck, being more consistent and harder to remove.

I've seen him more in modern for sure, but I think he does pop up in legacy too as you said. All in all he has seen more tourney play than 90% of magic cards and I'd guess Arena saw a smaller but non-zero amount in its day. I just think it's not as unlikely as you to say that a new, well designed Spike card similar but different to Bob will make an appearance at some point.

[Sith_Happens]

Why?

No, seriously, what's wrong with Tarmogoyf entering Standard? And before you say "it's too powerful!" I'd like to point out as far as I can tell it didn't break the format back when it was originally printed (remember, it was Standard legal in the Time Spiral block!), and creatures are generally more powerful now meaning it'd stand out even less.

I never said I had a problem with the idea of Goyf in Standard again (especially since I don't actually play Standard). It's just that IIRC it's been a little over three years since they printed any comparatively-sized CMC=<3 creatures that you don't have to build around to make that fat in the first place, so Goyf would be kind of out-of-place right now. Of course, that could easily change starting in October.

[Callos_DeTerran]

I'm looking for some advice on how to build a new deck. Since M13 came out, I've been caught on the idea of doing a Grixis Control/Superfriends style deck (The Legion of Doom!) to take advantage of the re-issuing of Nicol Bolas into Standard (and the fact I pulled him in my box). The deck is supposed to be themed around Nicol Bolas himself but that's...flexible. Really, so long as Nicol Bolas himself has a good place in there, I'm happy.

Here's what I'm looking at so Far:
Mana: I've got close to two-thirds of the mana-fixing that I need. Four Drowned Catacombs, 3 Dragonskull Summits, and a Sulfur Falls (Trying to get the remaining four still, obviously). Until I can finish rounding that out though, I figure Evolving Wilds fits just as well. I'd like to fit Reliquary Tower, Desolate Lighthouse, Hellion Crucible, and Nephalia Drownyard into that as well, but I already seem to be pushing things with just 12 basic lands. Is that workable? Oh, I was also going to slip in 2 Gem of Becoming (The one that lets you search for an Island, Swamp, and a Forest), and a Gilded Lotus (only have one right now but I'll try to get more). Anybody have advice on how to modify this? Aside from getting the duals from Mirrodin that'll be rotating out in October (I have neither the money nor the trade material to get a hold of those)?

Planeswalkers: So far, the only Planeswalker going into the deck is 2 copies of Nicol Bolas but, seeing as how eventually this will be a Legion, I'm going to need more that work well together. I do have Liliana of the Veil and a Liliana of the Dark Depths and both will be going into this deck eventually once it's further along...or can they function in it as it is? I'm going to trade for two more Tibalts (and a second copy of each Liliana), but which other planeswalkers are good choices? Would Jace or Tamiyo be a better pick? Tamiyo seems better for a control game while Jace can be a win condition all on his own, or trigger other win conditions (like Jace's Phantasm). What about Chandra the Firebrand? Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas could work but...see below.

Creatures: This has been a bit of a stumbling block for me, admittedly. So far, the only creatures I can think of that work well for this deck are Slumbering Dragon (Need more though, I've only got two), Augur and Disciple of Bolas (Feeding a Slumbering Dragon to the Disciple could result in huge card draw/life gain), and Mindclaw Shaman to give me a little more versatility in what I can play...but it relies on what my opponent has in their hand. I think Fog Banks would be a good inclusion for some early defense, both for me and my planeswalkers, but I'm struggling a bit for other creatures. An obvious one would be Phantasmal Image but...I don't have any of those. All I have in regard to copying creatures is a single Clone and 2 Cackling Counterpart (both of which I was going to add actually). I was also thinking about adding Delver of Secrets for early-pressure and making a tasty 3 card draw/3 life gain off Disciple if the situation should warrant it. Duty-Bound Dead could also be a good choice for early defense and helping an early Delver get through for more damage. Any other suggestions?

Sorceries, Instants, and Enchantments: This is...where I'm really hitting a stumbling block. I can't tell a worthwhile spell compared to a worthless one to save my life half the time, partly because I look more for what's amusing then what's good. I want to include a couple copies of Blood Reckoning, just to add another deterrent for actually attacking my planeswalkers or me (Slumbering Dragons and Blood Reckonings on the field makes attacking me a not so wise decision). I also plan on running three Magmaquakes as well since I'm making this deck partially in response to the abundance of planeswalker decks where I play (before anyone asks, I unfortunately do not have Bonfires to replace the quakes with, otherwise I would). Magmaquake in general just seems like a good answer for token decks, until they get out the spirit tokens anyway (which are the ones you really need to watch out for anyway). Cower in Fear also seems like a good response to token decks since it's one-sided and can be used at Instant speed, or is it too costly? How many counters should I run? I was thinking something like three Essence Scatters and two Negates, but I'm not sure if there's enough counters in there to be relevant. Maybe add in a couple Dissipates instead? This is the part I'm really looking for advice for. I was thinking of using Sign in Blood and Think Again for draw power and see what the forums thought of Wild Guess and Desperate Ravings/Faithless Looting in this particular deck. I do have Killing Waves and a Mutilate, should the Killing Waves be included? I'd add mutilate but considering there's only going to be like...four swamps, it seems a bit...under-whelming for what it may actually accomplish. Might Praetor's Grasp be a good choice? I can either remove threats entirely and possibly play them myself with my broad mana-base.

Artifacts: Here's the thing with getting my hands on some Tezerret, Agent of Bolas...I'm not sure how many artifacts I want to run and, if so, how which ones. Especially since I have almost two dozen cards (period) from the Mirrodin Block and M12 combined. I figure Tormond's Crypt is a no brainer (side-board or main, where I play there's a lot of graveyard shenanigans), I already mentioned the Gems of Becoming and Gilded Lotus, and I was thinking the Ring of Valkas and Evos Isle might be good inclusions. Valkas can add counters unto Slumbering Dragon, even if my enemy doesn't attack, while hexproof can keep any of my other creatures safe, even if it does cost two mana per instance of hexproof. There doesn't seem like enough to take advantage of Tezzeret's abilities there, nor any artifacts that I want to include so very badly. I was considering adding the Chronaton creature that can buff itself up just for another early threat as well...

The biggest thing is...I want this deck to still be relevant post rotation, so I'm trying very hard to include cards from M12 and Scars, despite how good some of them will be in this deck (Volt Charge, Tezzeret's Gambit for instance). Can anyone help?

[SynissterSyster]

You know what is a funny little card. It is Fog Bank. This little guy was part of the funnies game this past weekend for me. I ended up using him to block the mythic rare hydra that doubles in power every turn. Poor hydra got up to..like 96/96 or so. Foggy blocked him nice for many turns. I still lost the match and placed low in the sealed tourney but all in all was a lot of fun. Fog Bank is now part of my main deck with two of his brothers. Very worth the trade. :smallcool:

[Androgeus]

You know what is a funny little card. It is Fog Bank. This little guy was part of the funnies game this past weekend for me. I ended up using him to block the mythic rare hydra that doubles in power every turn. Poor hydra got up to..like 96/96 or so. Foggy blocked him nice for many turns. I still lost the match and placed low in the sealed tourney but all in all was a lot of fun. Fog Bank is now part of my main deck with two of his brothers. Very worth the trade. :smallcool:

erm... doesn't the hydra have trample?

[Mystic Muse]

erm... doesn't the hydra have trample?

Fog Bank prevents all combat damage that would be dealt to and dealt by it.

[IthilanorStPete]

Doesn't matter; the Hydra, when it has trample, can still assign 2 damage to Fog Bank and the rest to the defending player. The fact that the damage to Fog Bank will be prevented doesn't matter when assigning damage.

[Ninjaman]

You know what is a funny little card. It is Fog Bank. This little guy was part of the funnies game this past weekend for me. I ended up using him to block the mythic rare hydra that doubles in power every turn. Poor hydra got up to..like 96/96 or so. Foggy blocked him nice for many turns. I still lost the match and placed low in the sealed tourney but all in all was a lot of fun. Fog Bank is now part of my main deck with two of his brothers. Very worth the trade. :smallcool:

Does that work when the hydra has trample?

[Mystic Muse]

Ah, my mistake. I think it would have worked with an older reading of the trample ability, but with the current wording, the damage being prevented doesn't matter, you're right.

[SynissterSyster]

Doesn't matter; the Hydra, when it has trample, can still assign 2 damage to Fog Bank and the rest to the defending player. The fact that the damage to Fog Bank will be prevented doesn't matter when assigning damage.

Wait wait wait. Is that possible? I am checking the rules now. Okay... I can be wrong on this. Since there is no way that any damage can be done to Fog Bank there is no damage that can be placed on a player. From my readings on it some damage has to be assigned to Fog Bank but since it has the ruling that prevents damage done by and to it then trample couldn't kick in. If I am wrong then sweet as I can tell my store.

[tgva8889]

No, Trample would have allowed your opponent to deal some damage (in the case described over 90 damage) directly to you.

While the damage is prevented, Trample doesn't care in terms of assigning damage. Once lethal damage is assigned, whether or not it would actually cause the blocking creature to die, any additional damage can be assigned to the defending player. Since Fog Bank has 2 toughness, any damage beyond the first 2 could be assigned to you.

[SynissterSyster]

Thank you all! I am still keeping Fog Bank in my deck just will now know that Trample will go through. So I would have lost that game by turn 4 instead of the lunacy of turn 8. Thanks again. :smallbiggrin:

[tgva8889]

It's still a pretty good card. You just might need some other tools to beat those gigantic trampling monsters.

@Callos: What kinds of suggestions are you looking for?

[SynissterSyster]

It was in a Sealed tourney so it was like his big card. So wish I had a Murder for it. Anywho thanks again.

[Binks]

It doesn't matter what effects the card has. Trample assigns what would be lethal, ignoring any protection effects, to the creature in question. Same reason the hydra can trample over a Mirran Crusader despite pro-green.

You can choose to assign all the hydra's damage to the fog bank...but there's no point to that, so in general the fog bank will only reduce the damage by 2.


The controller of an attacking creature with trample first assigns damage to the creature(s) blocking it. Once all those blocking creatures are assigned lethal damage, any remaining damage is assigned as its controller chooses among those blocking creatures and the player or planeswalker the creature is attacking. When checking for assigned lethal damage, take into account damage already marked on the creature and damage from other creatures that’s being assigned during the same combat damage step, but not any abilities or effects that might change the amount of damage that’s actually dealt. The attacking creature’s controller need not assign lethal damage to all those blocking creatures but in that case can’t assign any damage to the player or planeswalker it’s attacking.
Fog Bank's ability changes the amount of damage that will be actually dealt to it, so it's ignored for assigning trample damage. You have to assign 'lethal' (2) to the fog bank but the rest tramples over. There's even an example in the comp rules detailing something almost exactly like this situation.


Example: A 6/6 green creature with trample is blocked by a 2/2 creature with protection from green. The attacking creature's controller must assign at least 2 damage to the blocker, even though that damage will be prevented by the blocker's protection ability. The attacking creature's controller can divide the rest of the damage as he or she chooses between the blocking creature and the defending player.

[SynissterSyster]

Thanks Binks. I saw that on the PDF after I posted. It is still all good. Just nice to know that the game shop isn't perfect.

[arguskos]

So, I have just finished up my Modern deck and wouldn't mind commentary. It's a bit off the beaten path but damn if it isn't entertaining to play.

GargaGeddon!

Cascaders:
4 Ardent Plea
4 Violent Outburst
4 Bloodbraid Elf

Borderposts:
4 Firewild Borderpost
4 Mistvein Borderpost
4 Veinfire Borderpost
4 Fieldmist Borderpost
4 Wildfield Borderpost

The Geddon:
4 Restore Balance

The Kills:
4 Greater Gargadon
2 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
2 Ajani Vengeant
3 Manabarbs
2 Nihilith

The Miser:
1 Reminisce

The Money:
4 Evolving Wilds (should be 2/2 with Terramorphic, but I can't find mine right now)
2 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Island

The Gameplan:
Play borderposts, keep land off the field, cascade into a balance, stick a threat, kill them. It's pretty odd to play.


My question for the thread is this: has anyone actually played this deck (as or against)? I'm trying to figure out when to mulligan, when to play things, etc. It's a tricky deck to pilot and I'm not 100% sure I know what the hell I'm doing with it yet. Any help/suggestions/laughter?

[Litewarior]

This (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=339414) thread is about the legacy form of that deck, people do talk about the modern form of it too. More cascaders are probably a good idea, Here's (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?action=advanced&text=+[cascade]+[cascade]) a link to the gatherer database of all cards with cascade, look through that and figure out which ones you want.

[IcemanJRC]

This (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=350326) thread is for the modern version.

[Callos_DeTerran]

@Callos: What kinds of suggestions are you looking for?

I'm looking for advice on card choices. Usually I'm able to build a semi-competitive deck on my own, but for once I'd like to surprise the people in my playing environment on Game Day and bring a deck that stands a chance against their more competitive ones. So I'm coming to the forums from stage one (the deck list) rather then after I've already made a deck and grown fond of how it works.

[Narkis]

The new MTGO client is awesome. That is all.

[Zombimode]

Ah, my mistake. I think it would have worked with an older reading of the trample ability, but with the current wording, the damage being prevented doesn't matter, you're right.

Nope, Trample always only cared about lethal damage assignment. What happened after the damage was assigned (being prevented, redirected, doubled etc.) never concerned a trampler.
But it is a common mistake to assume otherwise. I did it too when I tried to block a Darksteel Colossus with an Tel-Jilad Outrider (3/1 protection from artifacts).

Edit: Ninjutsu'ed tenfold

[tgva8889]

I'm looking for advice on card choices. Usually I'm able to build a semi-competitive deck on my own, but for once I'd like to surprise the people in my playing environment on Game Day and bring a deck that stands a chance against their more competitive ones. So I'm coming to the forums from stage one (the deck list) rather then after I've already made a deck and grown fond of how it works.

Well, your deck is likely a control deck, just because few other strategies would work for a deck trying to cast Nicol Bolas. For that you would need to know the kinds of threats you expect to face, so you can have various tools that can deal with them.

Because Nicol Bolas himself can answer pretty much any large opposing permanent, the biggest threats you will have to worry about are small aggression and ways to answer Bolas himself. From Standard, here are the key threats I would be worried about in your deck:

Delver of Secrets
Geist of St. Traft
Restoration Angel
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Blade Splicer
Huntmaster of the Fells
Ghoulcrawler
Geralf's Messenger
Blood Artist
Strangleroot Geist
Lingering Souls

From there, now we choose the removal spells that can best be used to fight these cards. Immediately I know you will want 4 Pillar of Flame, because it is highly effective at killing a majority of this list. The remainder are either multiple creatures (Splicer, Huntmaster, Souls) or resilient to small, targeted removal (Geist, Angel). For dealing with multiple creatures, Barter in Blood is a decent option, as are Bonfire of the Damned and Blastphemous Act. Because of Lingering Souls, Magmaquake is much less desirable, though it could prove effective simply by being an Instant. Note that most of these cards are expensive mana-wise.

From there, you may want some other removal options. While Bolas is a superb weapon against larger creatures, you still want some other ways to beat them. Go For the Throat is perhaps the best as of lately, though Doom Blade does a fine rendition. Murder is the weakest simply because it costs 3 whereas most creatures cost less. You really need cheap answers, and Murder isn't that. Essence Scatter is also an option, though it is weakened by Cavern of Souls.

It so happens that I can already tell that Snapcaster Mage and Augur of Bolas will have great value in this deck. Augur provides a defensive body against many of the 2-power threats and also is highly likely to draw you into one of your removal spells. Snapcaster Mage lets you reuse spent Pillars of Flame, which is really his best use as Pillar is probably the all-star removal spell for you.

In terms of draw spells, the best options for you are (in order) Desperate Ravings, Think Twice, and Amass the Components. If you have Snapcaster Mages, cards like Sign in Blood, Wild Guess, and Faithless Looting go up in value (for different reasons, I might add) but if you don't, I think the other 3 are probably your best options. Wild Guess and Looting might work out even if you don't have Snapcaster, but I probably wouldn't play Sign in Blood in this deck without the value of flashing it back.

Since Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker is the centerpiece of your deck, I wouldn't worry about running many other Planeswalkers. He will naturally be effective against a wide variety of opposing threats, large and small. I think if you wish to support him, though, the best options are Tamiyo and Karn. Karn is useful because he can put on a decent Nicol impression, answering a large threat and then taking over the game with his huge loyalty. Tamiyo, however, provides the most utility where you are likely to need it: against more aggressive decks. Her combination of high starting loyalty and an ability that basically pacifies a creature make her a good defensive measure against some of the aggressive decks.

That's just some theory to get you started. I'm sure some of my choices aren't necessarily the best, but they should push in a good general direction.

[Callos_DeTerran]

I haven't seen many Caverns at my place of play so far yet (most people don't play a ton of counters, I think I'm one of the only ones who runs two maindeck out of paranoia ((and mana fixing)) ), so Essence Scatter should still be worth it. If I do see them showing up, I can always replace the utility lands with Ghost Quarter which has other uses besides just blowing up Cavern.

Unfortunately I only have four Doomblades and 4 Murders (no Go for the Throats though) and only a single Dismember. Do you think it'd be better to replace the Murders with Victim of the Night and sideboard in the Murders if I see too many black vampires, werewolves, or zombies?

Unfortunately I just can't afford Snapcasters, the things are just too expensive for my very limited budget, but the Augurs I can definitely use. One of the reasons I want to use Mindclaw Shaman actually is because most players where I play will at least splash black to get some creature removal or naturally have some control in their hands, so being able to 'borrow' theirs can help to expand my options incredibly.

Anyway, with your advice, here's what I'm thinking deck-listwise...

Nicol Roll'd
Lands:
4 Drowned Catacombs
3 Dragonskull Summit
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Desolate Lighthouse
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Swamp
4 Island
4 Mountain

Is that enough basic lands to make this work? Last thing I want to do is find out I'm stuck putting down lands that come into play tapped.

Creatures:
3 Augur of Bolas
3 Fog Bank
2 Mindclaw Shaman
2 Disciple of Bolas
2 Slumbering Dragon
3 Duty-Bound Dead

Planeswalkers:
2 Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker

Spells:
2 Negate
4 Pillar of Flame
3 Think Twice
1 Desperate Ravings (I think I only have one)
2 Magmaquake
2 Doomblade
2 Victim of the Night
2 Blood Reckoning
2 Gem of Becoming
1 Gilded Lotus

How's that look? Not enough control? Suggestions on things to cut and to replace? Anything I need more of?

[IcemanJRC]

I'd say, since it's a control deck, -3 Dutybound Dead +3 lands, and you may consider switching out the Slumbering Dragons depending on how they play. They don't strike me as good enough. Also your mana looks a bit wonky, this (http://power9pro.com/blog/2009/03/create-proper-mana-base/) article provides the basics that I use to craft a manabase. Nothing too complicated, usually works out fine.

I'd use:

1 Desolate Lighthouse
1 Ghost Quarter
3 Dragonskull Summit
4 Drowned Catacomb
1 Sulfur Falls
6 Mountain
6 Island
3 Swamp

[tgva8889]

I would also, when possible, get a 3rd Nicol Bolas. He's the centerpiece; he better show is face often. Yes there's some risk of drawing too many early, but I think 3 is worth trying. Besides, come on, the fun part is putting him onto the battlefield most of the time anyways. :smallbiggrin:

I would cut Blood Reckonings for Tamiyos when you get them. Blood Reckoning doesn't do too much.

Since you have it and it's legal now, I would cut a Victim of the Night for a Dismember, since Dismember is more flexible right now. It's possible that after the rotation, the Doom Blades and Victim of the Nights will want to be either Murders or Tribute to Hungers, depending on the metagame. Or maybe even something else entirely; after rotation I imagine you'll have many more tools to work with.

[SynissterSyster]

Here is an utterly stupid question. Is Nicol a near 100% game winner or just needs a lot of skill to play?

[IthilanorStPete]

Bolas will generally win the game for you if you can get him down and aren't dead that turn. The problem, and the skill factor, is in getting to that point.

[tgva8889]

Bolas isn't the most skill-testing card ever, but (like most cards in Magic) there is some skill involved. He's much more of a sledgehammer than finely-crafted watch, to use an OotS-inspired analogy.

[SynissterSyster]

Ahhh okay. I saw a person (almost said pony...yeah to much on mind) play him at a sealed tourney and just rock the house. He got first.

[Zombimode]

How's that look? Not enough control? Suggestions on things to cut and to replace? Anything I need more of?

Do you have Magic Workstation or Cockatrice or something similar? Those are great tools for testing and to see how a deck "feels". Good for testing starting hands, too.

I've build your deck according to your list in Workstation and ran in solitair mode against some other decks I happened to have prepared.

I used, in order, a Budget Tempered Steel, a casual Reanimator/Token.dec (Marrow-Gnawer token producer, main win condition is Mirror Entity) and a casual Naya creature deck thats a bit hard to describe (it is a highly interactive deck that tries as many things as possible with creatures; it has three pillars: (1) ETB-creatures, (2) creatures, that let me reuse the ETB-creatures (by bouncing them or putting them ontop of my libary), and (3) ramp).

Since using casual decks for Standard testing will not provide accurate results, I will summarize my general impressions:

- Against a fast and aggressive opponent I felt Nicol.dec could not build up its defense fast enough/it ran out of answers before the aggressor ran out of threats.
- Magmaquake can ruin the day of many a deck but its not the all-out answer like Bonfire. See the next point.
- I think the decks lacks a win condition. Some evasion-less power 2 creatures even supported by exalted did not prove to by decisive enough. Also considering that with the exception of the Fog Banks and Dragons non of Nicol creatures fly so the will by roasted by Magmaquake as well.
- Slumbering Dragons are great against token/weenie decks, but don't do much against fatties with evasion. They are also not reliable as a win condition.
- Blood Reckoning was situational useful at best. It shares the same weakness as the Dragon: against a single fatty with evasion (or an equipped Invisible Stalker, I guess) the cards does next to nothing.
- Augur of Bolas was awesome when he found something, but often enough he just whiffed.

Now some comments specific to the games I played and the decks I used (probably not too relevant):
- Nicol Bolas himself did not do much over the course of the 8 games. He was drawn and discarded two times with Desperate ravings, put under the library at least one time by his Augur and the two games against Tempered Steel were to fast before he could even by played. In the two games he was on the field he accomplished two things: (1) trying to steal a Mirror Entity which was in response saced into a Marrow-Gnawer (it was a desperate situation and targeting the Entity was the best course of play), and (2) blowing up a land to deny the opponent a critical mana color. In both cases he was killed the following round.
- The Naya deck contained a single Simic-Sky-Swallower. Nicol-dec could not get rid of the blasted thing. It flies so Magmaquake could not touch it. Shroud prevents all spot removal. The only way to block it dead is with the Dragon, and with the Sky Swallower on the field it is very unlikely that the Dragon will hit the 5 counters. You do not run any spells that can counter creatures.
- The Mindclaw Shaman always whiffed. Granted with the decks I used, this is not to surprising (Tempered Steel had 8 possible targets, the Token/Reanimator also 8, and the Naya deck only 2 targets).
- For the same reason Negate didn't do anything.
- Doom Blade did not find many targets against the Token/Reanimator, and once a Mirror Entity or Ameoboid Changeling hit the field Victim of the Night became a useless piece of cardboard.


All in all this decks needs some work. A good sideboard would probably a huge step forward since one of the weaknesses of Nicol Roll'd are the large number of situational useful cards that can become a liability. When you can just swap them for other cards better fit for the specific situation you can avoid this problem.
A more consistent win condition would also help.

[Penguinizer]

Finally got the bravery to go for another draft on Modo. Did better and went 2-1 in an Avacyn Restored draft swiss. I did manage to lucksack myself a good deck so that might have had something to do with it. I got myself a Bonfire of the Damned in the second pack so that paid for 2 more drafts (with a ticket or two left over).

Here's what I got. There are a few sketchy choices since that I had to put in to pretty much be filler.


1 Dark Impostor
2 Bloodflow Connoisseur
2 Raging Poltergeist
1 Human Frailty
1 Fervent Cathar
1 Bonfire of the Damned
3 Undead Executioner
10 Swamp
1 Bone Splinters
7 Mountain
2 Searchlight Geist
1 Mad Prophet
2 Grave Exchange
1 Butcher Ghoul
2 Death Wind
1 Unhallowed Pact
1 Pillar of Flame
1 Ghoulflesh

Sideboard
1 Dangerous Wager
2 Spectral Prison
1 Cloudshift
2 Predator's Gambit
1 Raging Poltergeist
1 Diregraf Escort
1 Appetite for Brains
1 Polluted Dead
2 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Leap of Faith
1 Second Guess
1 Mist Raven
1 Narstad Scrapper
1 Fleeting Distraction
1 Rotcrown Ghoul
1 Hunted Ghoul
1 Unhallowed Pact
1 Outwit



I could have gone 3-0 but punted hard in round 2 game 1 (didn't notice Grave Exchange needed a creature in the grave so I couldn't use it until it was too late) and got screwed in the second game of round 2. The deck was pretty sick though.

I started out by first picking the Mist Raven and then getting the Undead Executioner in p1p2. I was planning to go UB until I windmill slam first picked Bonfire in p2p1 which meant I was basically oblicated. Overall, could have gone worse.

[Callos_DeTerran]

I'd say, since it's a control deck, -3 Dutybound Dead +3 lands, and you may consider switching out the Slumbering Dragons depending on how they play. They don't strike me as good enough. Also your mana looks a bit wonky, this (http://power9pro.com/blog/2009/03/create-proper-mana-base/) article provides the basics that I use to craft a manabase. Nothing too complicated, usually works out fine.

I'd use:

1 Desolate Lighthouse
1 Ghost Quarter
3 Dragonskull Summit
4 Drowned Catacomb
1 Sulfur Falls
6 Mountain
6 Island
3 Swamp

Hmm...Yeah, I can swing that mana base easily enough but 25 lands seem like too much. Especially since I do have a few other sources of mana-fixing with the Gem of Becoming and Gilded Lotus to use...Come to think of it, I've never played a non-EDH deck that has run more then 24 lands period. And wouldn't I want more copies of Desolate Lighthouse and Ghost Quarter, to increase my chances of getting them?


I would also, when possible, get a 3rd Nicol Bolas. He's the centerpiece; he better show is face often. Yes there's some risk of drawing too many early, but I think 3 is worth trying. Besides, come on, the fun part is putting him onto the battlefield most of the time anyways. :smallbiggrin:

I would cut Blood Reckonings for Tamiyos when you get them. Blood Reckoning doesn't do too much.

Since you have it and it's legal now, I would cut a Victim of the Night for a Dismember, since Dismember is more flexible right now. It's possible that after the rotation, the Doom Blades and Victim of the Nights will want to be either Murders or Tribute to Hungers, depending on the metagame. Or maybe even something else entirely; after rotation I imagine you'll have many more tools to work with.

Haha, yeah I realize I probably need a third Nicol Bolas, but I pulled one in the draft and my one friend is willing to trade me his so I only have two 'for sure' Nicol Bolas. If I can get another, that'd be awesome, but I need to find someone with him and willing to trade him first. Shouldn't be that hard though, most people just don't seem to have a place for him in their decks.

Blood Reckoning serves the same purpose as the one I want to use Slumbering Dragon for, providing a deterrent to attackers. If they're powering up a fat dragon and losing life with each attacker, it should give my opponent's second thoughts about ramming in on me turn after turn, especially token decks which are what I'm primarily worried about since I've had a lot of trouble with them in the past.

In either case, stick to the Doomblades and swap a Victim for Dismember? Fair enough!


Bolas isn't the most skill-testing card ever, but (like most cards in Magic) there is some skill involved. He's much more of a sledgehammer than finely-crafted watch, to use an OotS-inspired analogy.

I do love that analogy and I do love my sledgehammers. :smallbiggrin:


Do you have Magic Workstation or Cockatrice or something similar? Those are great tools for testing and to see how a deck "feels". Good for testing starting hands, too.

I've build your deck according to your list in Workstation and ran in solitair mode against some other decks I happened to have prepared.

I used, in order, a Budget Tempered Steel, a casual Reanimator/Token.dec (Marrow-Gnawer token producer, main win condition is Mirror Entity) and a casual Naya creature deck thats a bit hard to describe (it is a highly interactive deck that tries as many things as possible with creatures; it has three pillars: (1) ETB-creatures, (2) creatures, that let me reuse the ETB-creatures (by bouncing them or putting them ontop of my libary), and (3) ramp).

Since using casual decks for Standard testing will not provide accurate results, I will summarize my general impressions:

- Against a fast and aggressive opponent I felt Nicol.dec could not build up its defense fast enough/it ran out of answers before the aggressor ran out of threats.
- Magmaquake can ruin the day of many a deck but its not the all-out answer like Bonfire. See the next point.
- I think the decks lacks a win condition. Some evasion-less power 2 creatures even supported by exalted did not prove to by decisive enough. Also considering that with the exception of the Fog Banks and Dragons non of Nicol creatures fly so the will by roasted by Magmaquake as well.
- Slumbering Dragons are great against token/weenie decks, but don't do much against fatties with evasion. They are also not reliable as a win condition.
- Blood Reckoning was situational useful at best. It shares the same weakness as the Dragon: against a single fatty with evasion (or an equipped Invisible Stalker, I guess) the cards does next to nothing.
- Augur of Bolas was awesome when he found something, but often enough he just whiffed.

Now some comments specific to the games I played and the decks I used (probably not too relevant):
- Nicol Bolas himself did not do much over the course of the 8 games. He was drawn and discarded two times with Desperate ravings, put under the library at least one time by his Augur and the two games against Tempered Steel were to fast before he could even by played. In the two games he was on the field he accomplished two things: (1) trying to steal a Mirror Entity which was in response saced into a Marrow-Gnawer (it was a desperate situation and targeting the Entity was the best course of play), and (2) blowing up a land to deny the opponent a critical mana color. In both cases he was killed the following round.
- The Naya deck contained a single Simic-Sky-Swallower. Nicol-dec could not get rid of the blasted thing. It flies so Magmaquake could not touch it. Shroud prevents all spot removal. The only way to block it dead is with the Dragon, and with the Sky Swallower on the field it is very unlikely that the Dragon will hit the 5 counters. You do not run any spells that can counter creatures.
- The Mindclaw Shaman always whiffed. Granted with the decks I used, this is not to surprising (Tempered Steel had 8 possible targets, the Token/Reanimator also 8, and the Naya deck only 2 targets).
- For the same reason Negate didn't do anything.
- Doom Blade did not find many targets against the Token/Reanimator, and once a Mirror Entity or Ameoboid Changeling hit the field Victim of the Night became a useless piece of cardboard.


All in all this decks needs some work. A good sideboard would probably a huge step forward since one of the weaknesses of Nicol Roll'd are the large number of situational useful cards that can become a liability. When you can just swap them for other cards better fit for the specific situation you can avoid this problem.
A more consistent win condition would also help.

Well...what should I aim for as a win condition? Also, do you think it'd be worth it to replace the Duty-Bound Dead with Killing Waves for better creature-removal?

[tgva8889]

Killing Wave isn't a removal spell really, so no.

You want to run 25 lands because you're a control deck. You want to play as many lands as possible. If you have too many lands, you've got a Desolate Lighthouse, but I honestly doubt "having too many lands" is a problem. In the words of Gavin Verhey, "play more lands."

Your weapons against token decks should just be Magmaquake-style cards. It's actually possible you want Mutilates? But probably not.

You do definitely need something that actually kills them. If you got any, I'd go with Sphinx of Uthuun, as it has the side benefit of also drawing you cards (technically).

I would just drop the Duty-Bound Deads for more single-target removal. Or some combination of that and a win condition.

[Lord Seth]

I'd take Black Sun's Zenith over Mutilate, personally. Though I can see the appeal of getting the card that'll stay legal for the next year rather than just the next few months.

[IcemanJRC]

Hmm...Yeah, I can swing that mana base easily enough but 25 lands seem like too much. Especially since I do have a few other sources of mana-fixing with the Gem of Becoming and Gilded Lotus to use...Come to think of it, I've never played a non-EDH deck that has run more then 24 lands period. And wouldn't I want more copies of Desolate Lighthouse and Ghost Quarter, to increase my chances of getting them?


You want 25 lands, maybe even 26, but 25 seems fine. I imagine you haven't played much control in the past, but you want to hit every land drop. Every land drop from turn 1 to turn 8, and the more you hit past that the better. And yes, you want more Desolate Lighthouse, probably 3, and maybe a second Ghost Quarter. That'd change the numbers of course, and the reason I didn't include them was because you didn't say you had them, you only listed one of each originally. I was working with the nonbasics that I saw you had.

[Mystic Muse]

Alright, here's the current incarnation of my FNM deck. I'm wondering if there's anything you guys think I could get rid of to throw in two Angelic overseers.

Also, critique of/advice on the sideboard would be nice.

EDIT: Turns out I have 4 Champion of the Parishes I thought I no longer had. Wondering if those should go somewhere in there. May use them post rotation.


Lands
9x Plains
9x Forest
4x Sunpetal Grove
2x Gavony Township
Spells
4x Mayor of Avabruck
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Druids' Repository
4x Hero of Bladehold
4x Silverblade Paladin
4x Mirran Crusader
4x Avacyn's Pilgrim
2x Sphere of the Suns
2x Oblivion ring
1x Primeval Titan
1x Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
1x Avacyn, Angel of Hope
1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite


Sideboard
3x Restoration Angel
2x Door to Nothingness
2x Beast Within
2x Bladed Bracers
2x Ghost Quarters
2x Somberwald Sage
1x Revenge of the Hunted
1x Avacyn, Angel of Hope

[Callos_DeTerran]

You want 25 lands, maybe even 26, but 25 seems fine. I imagine you haven't played much control in the past, but you want to hit every land drop. Every land drop from turn 1 to turn 8, and the more you hit past that the better. And yes, you want more Desolate Lighthouse, probably 3, and maybe a second Ghost Quarter. That'd change the numbers of course, and the reason I didn't include them was because you didn't say you had them, you only listed one of each originally. I was working with the nonbasics that I saw you had.

I've got 2 Desolate Lighthouses and more Ghost Quarters then I can shake a ghost at.

[tgva8889]

2 Lighthouse and 2 Ghost Quarter is probably fine. Your color requirements aren't so easy that you can play like 7 colorless lands and get away with it.

Black Sun's Zenith is better if you want a wrath in Standard, but it won't be in Standard in 3 months. It might be worthwhile to wait a little while and see what Wraths we get in Return to Ravnica block. I know one thing: I want them to reprint Pyroclasm already.

[IcemanJRC]

Yes, waiting may prove fruitful. Though you said you wanted to bring this to gameday, right? So you may be able to overhaul the deck to accommodate Mutilates instead.

[tgva8889]

Depending on the cards you already have, Callos, playing Black Sun's Zenith might be a good idea. Though I do like Blastphemous Act a lot.

[Callos_DeTerran]

I have one of each (Black Sun and Blasphemous Act), but putting in Mutilates seems counter-productive to me with my current mana-base ideas and Iceman. With only 3 swamps (I'm going to go with Iceman's mana-base), that's a max of...-3/-3, IF I have all three swamps out. As opposed to Black Sun which can give far more then that so long as I have two black mana to play it or Blasphemous Act which flat out annihilates any non-indestructible/non-pro red creature with less then 13 toughness and only needs one red (depending on the opponent's field of course).

[tgva8889]

I would probably play 1 copy of each for now. They're both effective. I'm sure there will be something to substitute for Black Sun's Zenith soon.

[IcemanJRC]

I have one of each (Black Sun and Blasphemous Act), but putting in Mutilates seems counter-productive to me with my current mana-base ideas and Iceman. With only 3 swamps (I'm going to go with Iceman's mana-base), that's a max of...-3/-3, IF I have all three swamps out. As opposed to Black Sun which can give far more then that so long as I have two black mana to play it or Blasphemous Act which flat out annihilates any non-indestructible/non-pro red creature with less then 13 toughness and only needs one red (depending on the opponent's field of course).

I was saying that you could modify your deck to better make use of Mutilate. Though Black Sun's and Blasphemous act will both work fine I'm sure.

[Mystic Muse]

My cousin wants to make a new deck since his is rotating out in 3 months. What are some good budget decks for post rotation? I know R/G Werewolves isn't too expensive, but I'm wondering if there are good options beyond that.

[Zavoniki]

My cousin wants to make a new deck since his is rotating out in 3 months. What are some good budget decks for post rotation? I know R/G Werewolves isn't too expensive, but I'm wondering if there are good options beyond that.

Any of the B/x Zombie builds are pretty budget with B/R probably the most maintainable post Rotation(B/U loses Phantasmal Image, B/G loses Birthing Pod, B/W isn't really a thing). The money cards being Gravecrawler, Geralf's Messanger, and Falkenrath Aristocrat(If your B/R). Mono-black is also an option. I'd also look at Disciple of Bolas from M13 for inclusion in that deck.

Their may also be a B/R Vampires build between the Innistrad Vampires and Vampire Noctornus from M13.

The Mono-U Delver of Secrets/Invisible Stalker Runechanters Pike deck is one I've seen on Magic Online a bit and it looks pretty cheap to build being almost entirely Commons and Uncommons and probably gets the most from M13(Talrand and his Invocation). However it also relies somewhat heavily on Phyrexian Mana spells so I don't know how well it will survive rotation. But there are a lot of one mana Blue spells in Innistrad Block(Silent Departure probably being the biggest candidate).

[Lord Seth]

The Mono-U Delver of Secrets/Invisible Stalker Runechanters Pike deck is one I've seen on Magic Online a bit and it looks pretty cheap to build being almost entirely Commons and Uncommons and probably gets the most from M13(Talrand and his Invocation).Hrm? Doesn't that deck use Snapcaster Mage? That's certainly not a Common/Uncommon and it's one of the three most expensive cards in Innistrad (the other two being Liliana and Geist).

Granted, you can do without it, but the card is pretty incredible.


However it also relies somewhat heavily on Phyrexian Mana spells so I don't know how well it will survive rotation. But there are a lot of one mana Blue spells in Innistrad Block(Silent Departure probably being the biggest candidate).Silent Departure isn't that great. I'd go with Unsummon over it any day. Actually I'd take Vapor Snag over both, but that's rotating out, and Unsummon is the next best thing. The fact Silent Departure is a Sorcery limits its usefulness considerably.

[Zavoniki]

Hrm? Doesn't that deck use Snapcaster Mage? That's certainly not a Common/Uncommon and it's one of the three most expensive cards in Innistrad (the other two being Liliana and Geist).

Granted, you can do without it, but the card is pretty incredible.

Snapcaster is very bad in that deck considering all it wants to do is dump instants and sorceries into the yard, and Snapcaster doesn't do that and is actually a very marginal creature to attach a pike too due to not having evasion and/or hexproof. The deck does rely somewhat heavily on Inkmoth Nexus for its Oops I Win draws and I'm not sure what is available to replace it.



Silent Departure isn't that great. I'd go with Unsummon over it any day. Actually I'd take Vapor Snag over both, but that's rotating out, and Unsummon is the next best thing. The fact Silent Departure is a Sorcery limits its usefulness considerably.

I've found Silent Departure to be pretty good(though its not Vapor Snag), but its certainly better than Unsummon in any aggro deck where your not looking for a tempo gain but just a way to bounce blockers. Its very overshadowed by Snapcaster however, which does everything it does, and more, and adds a 2/1 flash body as well. That being said, it's not good for the Mono-U Pike deck for the same reason Snapcaster isn't, as you don't want to be removing Instants and Sorceries from your graveyard.

[Ninjaman]

Any of the B/x Zombie builds are pretty budget with B/R probably the most maintainable post Rotation(B/U loses Phantasmal Image, B/G loses Birthing Pod, B/W isn't really a thing). The money cards being Gravecrawler, Geralf's Messanger, and Falkenrath Aristocrat(If your B/R).

And 4 Cavern of souls. Definately not budget.

[Zombimode]

Hrm? Doesn't that deck use Snapcaster Mage? That's certainly not a Common/Uncommon and it's one of the three most expensive cards in Innistrad (the other two being Liliana and Geist).

Isn't Cavern of Souls another card that has reached 20$/€ mark (it really saddens me that in Magic Dollar and Euro prices are most cases interchangeable. It seems to me that magic is much cheaper in the states that in Euro-land, also in terms of prices for packs and boxes. ) that constitutes a "chase-rare" ?