Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

[Zorg]

40k-in-the-Playground presents...
Cheesegear's Newbie Guide on How to pick Warhammer 40K army
by Cheesegear and GitP contributors

Disclaimer: This is not a guide to say which armies are 'better' than other armies. Except in hyperbole. The 'stars' notation is for what Newbies should play. By no means does this mean that you shouldn't play Chaos Daemons. It means that if you're a new player and don't fully understand the rules to the game, it might be hard to make Daemons work.

Any unit that gets specifically mentioned is a stand-out unit, or will represent a 'must-have' unit that the army has.

General Advice for all armies;
Where possible, you should always talk to a GW Staff Member. No, you don't have to actually listen to or do anything they say. But, you should at least talk to them so they can point you in at least a general direction. Don't buy anything on your first trip into the store. GW Staff are very persuasive, and you can - or will - often end up buying something you don't even want.
If and when you do finally decide on an army, play a few games in an actual GW Store using the Store's models. Otherwise, where possible, use proxy models. This will give you a basic understanding of most of the rules and the turn sequence and a general idea of how your army-of-choice plays. Or, at least give you an idea that an army or unit that you thought was cool, really isn't. Or maybe that particular army just isn't for you. And that unit that 'looks cool' doesn't fit your play style.
Read a Codex. Whatever gets said on the internet, means absolutely nothing if you don't have a Codex to understand what's being said. This ties into the above in that it's kind of important that you have played a few games and know the rules.
GW doesn't mention it all that much, but; You don't have to use your army's Codex for your army. For example; It's perfectly reasonable to, say, use the Chaos Space Marine Codex to represent a 1st Company of Loyalist Marines. You can, in fact, use Imperial Guard models to represent Tau, or Eldar. Just so long as your models look suitably awesome and your models conform to the rules of a different list (the WYSIWYG rule). If you can also give a background justification - or 'fluffy' reason - for why your Imperial Guard are wielding Shuriken or Pulse Rifles; Even better!
In regards to the above; 'Counts as' models can generally be shown to be a fluffy reason for why you have what you have. So, maybe your Imperial Guard regiment has a lot of Ogryns. You can use an Ogryn-holding-a-Lascannon as your 'Heavy Weapon Team'. As long as it's WYSIWYG, and at least makes a passing attempt at conforming to the rules (such as base size/shape), nobody cares. However, GW really doesn't like it when you come into their store and start using a different company's miniatures to play a GW game. However, making a scratch-build from Green Stuff and Plasticard is totally okay. Just so long as you aren't giving their competitors money, eh?
With that said; Painting, Green Stuff, Plasticard and Conversions in general, the only way to get better at it, is to practice. Start easy, start small. Start with adding cloaks to troops. Large, rectangular pieces of Green Stuff. Easy. Maybe you'll be confident to add textures. Ability comes with practice. And, there are literally dozens of tutorials to be found on YouTube. And hundreds of tutorials just about everywhere else.
Less is more. Don't try to equip your unit to do everything. Assign your units to fulfill a role, and let them do it. Don't waste points on things you aren't going to use.
Bodies are far more important than Wargear. Do not spend 100 extra points on Wargear, if you could otherwise spend 100 points on buying a whole unit. Wargear is not a substitute for models. Well, it is. But, it's a poor substitute.
In regards to the above two points, very rarely, should you spend more than 200 points on a single model (such as an HQ model), or 300 points on a single unit.
Troops. Win. Games. Do not, under any circumstances, skimp out on your Troops selection. More often than not they are the cheapest unit in the Codex, and, Troops are the only units who can capture an objective. Any unit can contest an objective, but, only Troops can claim objectives. All contesting objectives will do is get you is a Draw.
Assault on Black Reach. Bad for Space Marine players. Good for Ork Players.
Vehicles and You (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8118712&postcount=1011).
Cheesegear's Speaking Of Tournaments.... (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8301600&postcount=42) General themes to consider when attending a competitive arena.
To Tailor Your List Or Not To Tailor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10373704&postcount=571)

Wraith's Handy-Dandy Guide to Painting and Assembling an Army (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8722344&postcount=1421)

Closet_Skeleton says:
"Every Troops choice you spend on a non-Scoring unit is Troops choice wasted."

How To Write An Army List (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8702512&postcount=1358) | Sample (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8713541&postcount=1393)

Guide to Armies
Space Marines (Codex Marines, SMs):
Pros: Space Marines are the eponymous 40K army. They are the army by which all other armies are judged. Just about all their units can be outfitted in many different ways to fulfill many different roles (but, in regards to General Advice, they should only try to do one thing at a time). With few exceptions, the entire army selection is plastic for easy conversions and assembly (and, most of the metal models you don't even need). As plastics, the army is also relatively cheap to buy.
GW Staff are extremely knowledgeable on all things Space Marine.
Troops unit choice with the ability to Infiltrate and have Sniper Rifles.
Power Armour and Bolters.

Cons: Honestly, none. Save for the common misinformation that GW Staff will tell you to get you to buy certain units and sets (like Assault on Black Reach). But, this is by no means bad. As a Space Marine is a Space Marine. And pretty much all the units in the Codex can be useful one way or another.
One such example is that there is a growing proportion of Space Marine players who feel - despite the fluff and the statline - that Scout Squads are superior to Tactical Squads (the reason why is outside the scope of this guide).
The only truly bad thing about Space Marines, is that everybody has them. GW sells them at every opportunity. All starter sets ever produced by GW has contained Space Marines as one of the 'learner' armies. By extension, a lot of people turn to Space Marines because that's what they learned the game with, but, what they don't realise, is that the Assault on Black Reach starter kit is weak.

Recommendation for Newbs; *****. But the Assault on Black Reach kit isn't a good start to a Space Marine army. GW likes misinformation.
* or ** depending on whether or not you care about being 'just like everyone else'.
What's so bad about AoBR? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7733811&postcount=990)

Codex Space Marines theoretically allows you to build 7 different 'themes' of Space Marines (even though it's 6) based around what colours and which Special Characters you like. However, any special character can be used in any Chapter, painted any colour that you choose. So, really, what Chapter you choose is kind of irrelevant since you can use other Chapters' special characters anyway.

The common belief is that 'Space Marines is Space Marines'. They all have Power Armour and Bolters. All of the above applies to the below;
Dark Angels: (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12681041&postcount=1444) You will need the Errata/FAQ. Essentially a carbon copy of Codex Marines with the option to play Ravenwing (all bikes) or Deathwing (all Terminators). Both of which, for the most part, can be done much better by Codex: Space Marines and either Grey Knights/Space Wolves, respectively. *
Black Templars: (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11039428&postcount=79) You will need the Errata/FAQ. Slightly more focused on close combat. With some unique rules. ***
Space Wolves: (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8450662&postcount=510) Space Wolves are actually the 'most fair' list out of all the Space Marine variants. They're a solid list. They have no actual 'bad' or 'trap' units. ****
Blood Angels: (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11549896&postcount=162) The only real difference in the List is more options to take Jump Packs, Fast vehicles, and a slight bonus to Deep Striking. Staggeringly similar to Codex Marines otherwise and you wont actually lose much by playing Blood Angels. ****

What if you like one particular unit more than the others? Which Codex would be best for you? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11343165&postcount=1001)

Chaos Space Marines (Chaos Marines, CSMs):
Like Space Marines, but Evil. So, just about everything that applies to Space Marines applies to Chaos Space Marines.
Pros: Chaos Space Marines are slightly more focused on close combat than their Imperial counterparts - but, by no means to they have to be. CSMs are not necessarily 'better' than regular SMs. Just...Different. Each faction has different toys at their disposal.
There are a variety of different ways you can outfit your squads, and it's kind of difficult to find any two CSM armies the same.
Power Armour and Bolters.
Converting your 'Starter Box' Space Marine army to Chaos Marines is fairly easy. Just add spikes and arrows and mutations.

Cons: There are options in the Codex. Too many options some say. It's very easy to get confused on what or what not to get for your squads and characters. And it's even easier to go overboard on wargear and skills and the like (remember; Wargear != Bodies).
CSMs are also a fairly commonly seen army as they cater to the people who want to play Space Marines, but, think that 'Evil is Cool'. Some do consider who they get associated with as a bad thing.
The 'some of everything' approach that a lot of new players have when collecting their armies doesn't really work for Chaos Marines. Most of the time, you're best off going all-out on one or two of the Cult units (below).

Recommendation for Newbies: ****

Chaos Space Marines (Cults):

Contributions supplied by Winterwind, DaedalusMkV and unknowingly by Myatar Panwar

World Eaters/Khorne-based/Beserkers:
Lots of attacks...Aaand...That's about it. Khorne Beserkers have WS 5 and also gain Furious Charge, meaning that when Assaulting, they're hitting and wounding most things on 3s and 2/3s. Their initiative 5 (when Assaulting) helps them a lot when they can strike before most enemies and kill them before they get attacks back. Khorne Berzerkers are fairly good at what they do, but, their individual unit effectiveness is directly proportional to their opponent's armour save.
Meaning, that, for the most part, you need lots of Beserkers. Lots. Khorne Beserker armies also don't function very well without Rhinos, as their only ranged weapons are Pistols. So, this is a lot of currency. On top of which; As they lack ranged weapons, Obliterators, Vindicators and Defilers are almost required for the army.
Khorne Lords and Daemon Princes are considered to be the least efficient. The Daemon Weapon gives you double the chance to hurt yourself. As well as +2D6 Power Weapon attacks is pretty much overkill. You don't really need that many.
Their special character - Kharn - is quite good though.
*** You will need Rhinos. Luckily, Berzerkers come in boxes of 12 (which is more than the other Cult units) and are plastic. Which is good.

Thousand Sons/Tzeentch-based:
All models with the Mark of Tzeentch gain an Invulnerable save. Or, their save gets improved if they already have one. This makes Tzeentch-based lists very tough to kill on the outset.
Onto specialised units; Thousand Sons are a Troop choice that comes with a 4+ invulnerable save, and have AP3 Bolters. Perfect for objective-squatting. This also makes them deadly in ranged firefights - and their invulnerable save makes them hard to kill on the return. Being Slow and Purposeful, it's a good idea to get as much use our their Bolters as you can get.
Thousand Sons also have a Sorcerer as their 'Sergeant'. Chaos Psychic Powers being as they are, this is quite good, as most 'shooting' powers tend to be AP3 or better, or allow no save at all. The Sorcerer also comes with a Force Weapon (add Warptime for fun). Meaning units with an Independent Character kind of need to think twice before Assaulting Thousand Sons units.
However, units without Independent Characters (that you can't target), and other dedicated Assault units will have an easy time. As Thousand Sons are the worst Assault unit in the Codex. But, this isn't saying a whole lot, as they're still Space Marines.
Tzeentch Daemon Princes and Sorcerers are quite good, able to choose and use two powers in the same turn. As well as receiving a better Invulnerable save. Tzeentch Lords are 'okay'. The Tzeentch special character - Ahriman - is pretty good. But, far too overpoints'd.
*** Thousand Sons boxes are expensive. But, you get plenty in a box.

Emperor's Children/Slaanesh-based/Noise Marines:
Marks of Slaanesh add to Initiative. This means pretty much everything in the CSM army will be functioning at Initiative 5. If you're unit holds Power Weapons, you can do a lot of damage before your opponent even gets to attack.
Noise Marines. Are. Amazing. Sonic Blasters are essentially Storm Bolters that get an extra shot if you're standing still. A Blastmaster, is a S8, AP3 Blast weapon that causes Pinning. Do you want yet? Just before Assaulting, the Noise Marine Champion has access to a S5, AP3 Flamer. This will kill things dead. Then Assault, at Initiative 5 (if you're opponent didn't fail their Morale check from you shooting the crap out of them, that is) and you can do some serious damage.
Daemon Princes and Sorcerers gain Lash of Submission. Usually considered one of the more unfair psychic powers as it allows you to move your opponent's models. Where? Into Dangerous Terrain, out of their precious cover, towards your own models into Assault range, or even just moving their Heavy Weapon team out of LoS.
Chaos Lords with Blissgiver are perfect Character killers as with 3+D6 attacks and Initiative 6, they only need to cause one wound (with a 'Power Weapon') to kill pretty much anything they want.
Lucius the Eternal is just as good as - if not better than - Kharn. And doesn't even cost that many points.
**** The Noise Marine box doesn't come with with many Sonic Blasters. They are, however, available in bulk from Mail Order. But, they're not that important. You're really only getting Noise Marines for Blastmasters and Doom Sirens.

Death Guard/Nurgle-based/Plague Marines:
Extra Toughness. Might not seem like much. But, it's (usually) the most expensive Mark for units that can take it for a reason. Works best on models in Terminator Armour or models on Bikes.
Plauge Marines are pretty much exactly the same as regular Chaos Marines, except with Toughness 5 and Feel No Pain. They're extremely hard to kill. On top of which, they have Defensive Grenades. And that's pretty good. Aaand...That's about it actually. Not much can be said about Plague Marines except exactly that.
The Mark of Nurgle is mostly wasted on Daemon Princes as they don't really need the extra Toughness compared to what else they could take and Sorcerers on gain access to Nurgle's Rot, which, again, compared to other powers, isn't that great. As Nurgle's Rot works best in close combat. But, Nurgle Sorcerers only get one psychic power per turn. So, it's Nova, or use the Force Weapon.
On Chaos Lords (especially in Terminator Armour), the Mark of Nurgle is alright. Giving access to a reasonably good Daemon Weapon.
The special character for Death Guard is Typhus. He's pretty damn good. Opinion appears to be divided on whether or not he's worth the points. He has Wind of Chaos, and Nurgle's Rot (otherwise known as Nurgle's Nova). And he auto-passes all psychic tests when using those powers. As well as having the Nurgle-based Daemon Weapon, that also counts as a Force Weapon. As well as Terminator Armour and Defensive Grenades. Whether you like him or not is your choice.
**** Plague Marines are pretty boring for options. But, Toughness 5 and Feel No Pain are really, really good. And the Mark of Nurgle is usually the most expensive Mark for those who would get any real use out of it.

Tyranids ('Nids):
If you think of the movie Alien, or Starship Troopers, Tyranids aren't far off the mark.
Pros: Tyranids are primarily seen as a close combat swarm army. The big Tyranids are extremely customisable and immensely powerful in whatever role you want to give them (but you should only choose one role at a time, remember), and, the smaller Tyranids come in massive numbers designed to make your opponent crap themselves on just how many bodies you can put on the table. The Tyranids also possess one of the most deadly close combat units in the entire game.
A Troops choice that can Infiltrate.
Most of the army is plastic. And, many of the blister models you only need a few of. So, per box, Tyranids are pretty cheap. Also, the Tyranid Battleforce is generally considered what you need, it's definitely recommended by most of the internet that you should get at least two.

Cons: Like CSMs, it's often possible to overload your Monstrous Creatures with too many biomorphs (wargear), which gets expensive. Fast. And, many of the smaller Tyranids are designed for one unchangeable role. The smaller Tyranids can't adapt their units for what they want to do. A Tyranid army is usually seen as very shooty-heavy, or very assault-heavy. It very - extremely rarely - can be both. Often, trying to be both is actually a detriment to the Tyranid army.

Without the bigger Tyranids to back them up, the smaller Tyranids suddenly become a lot more vulnerable, partly because they already have low toughness and high armour saves to begin with. Therefore, you may need to spend a bit of money on the larger, more expensive models.
As a swarm army, box-per-box, you also don't get very many points in each box. This means you'll probably have to end up spending a lot of money to get a decent amount of points onto the table.

Also, like SMs and CSMs, if a 14 year old kid isn't playing SMs or CSMs, then they're playing Tyranids.

Recommendation for Newbies: ** to ****. Depending on how much real-world currency you have to spend. If you don't have a lot of money, you wont be able to field a lot of bodies or acquire the larger Monstrous Creatures. If you can field ~50 Termagants and 50 Hormagaunts per battle and have Monstrous Creatures to back them up...Good.

How to build your Tyranid Army. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12835320&postcount=236)

Eldar:
Elves. In SPAAACE!
Pros: The Eldar boast a 'swiss army knife' army. They have a unit for everything and every unit can do their job well. Each and every unit looks vastly different to every other unit, and are actually supposed to be painted in different colours to each other. So, you have a huge variety of models and colours. If variety is important to you.
Most of the army can Fleet. All Eldar tanks are Fast, Skimmers, and the army contains Eldar Jetbikes (which have different rules to 'normal' Jetbikes). In short, the Eldar army boasts speed and maneuverability.
As with their Infantry, they also have HQ units to fit certain roles. An Autarch can be outfitted to suit almost any battlefield role. Eldar Farseers and Seer Councils are powerful psykers. And the Avatar is a close combat Monster (literally).
A lot of the metal models in the range come in reasonable sized boxes at a (fairly) reasonable price. The good news is, you usually don't need too many of the metal models.
Troops unit choice with the ability to Infiltrate and have Sniper Rifles.
A Wraithlord is one of the scariest models in the game. An absurdly high Toughness and a reasonable armour save. And can kill troops and heavy armour with equal ease. Often at the same time. It's strength 10 and Monstrous Creature status also means it can rip apart tanks even when it's guns are suited to killing Infantry. It even causes Instant Death on most Infantry that attack it. Including a lot of HQ characters.
Wraithguard are like smaller Wraithlords high Strength and Toughness, with a good save and toting around deadly guns.
...It's possible to build an entire army out of Wraithguard and Wraithlords.

Cons: Low 'Elf' Toughness.
The sheer amount of variety can sometimes make it hard to decide which units to take. Especially since some of the units in the Eldar army overlap, but, achieve their role in slightly different ways. And it's these 'slightly different ways' that can make or break the unit depending on your opponent. Some particular units are even useless or near-useless depending on your opponent.
Every unit fills a role. And is unadaptive. You can't manipulate any squad to do anything other than what it was designed to do (except Dire Avengers). And, in smaller point games where you can't afford to take every unit you want, you'll know that you're missing that unit. Because nothing else you have will be able to perform as well as the missing unit.
It's these missing units that make of most of the metal models that will be in your army. You'll need the metal models.
Individual Wraithguard units can often be prohibitively expensive in currency.
Taking too many Wraithlords in your army will have people crying for curdled dairy products. That is; Cheese. In lower point games, just one Wraithlord is enough for "OMG! Cheese!" cries.

Recommendation for Newbies: *** or ****. The Eldar army is an army where it's hard - but not impossible - to go wrong. With such a huge mandatory variety in models, an 'I want every unit' mindset (common in newbies) is actually beneficial to the Eldar army setup.

Wraith teaches you where you should go with your Eldar;
HQ and Elites (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13221962&postcount=781)
Troops and Fast Attack (and Wave Serpent) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13221968&postcount=782)
Heavy Support and Special Characters (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13221980&postcount=783)

Dark Eldar (DE):
Like Eldar, but evil (there's an argument that Dark Eldar are more evil than 'regular Chaos'). But much, much different in play-style from Eldar, than SM's are from CSM's.

Stuff About HQ Choices (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9844642&postcount=252)
Stuff About Everything Else (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9871000&postcount=332)
Stuff About Special Characters (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9886548&postcount=356)
Cheesegear says: "The Dark Eldar one is...Fairly out of date. Sliscus rules. Razorwings kick arse and Venoms are potentially the best Transport in the game - oh man was I wrong on that score!"

Recommendation for Newbies: ** or ***. The Dark Eldar are easy to learn, but hard to master. But, once mastered...The Dark Eldar tend to either win by a significant margin (often by Turn 3 or 4), or lose spectacularly (by Turn 5 or 6).

Tau:
With help provided by Nameless Ghost, Ricky S and Selrahc

Tau are the archetypal alien race. Very progressive technology and a near-utopic society. Also draws several parallels to Mechs and Exosuits - if you like that sort of thing.
Pros: Firepower. You want a really 'Shooty' army? You pick Tau.
Like Necrons and Space Marines, you actually can't go very far wrong with the 'normal' Troop choice; Fire Warriors. They have a decent save of 4+, so they aren't dying en masse to Bolter fire. And they boast the best base-Troop weapon in the game. Yes. Better than Bolters. Easily. Their Transport (Devilfish), similarly, for it's points cost is one of the best in the game. Second only to the Eldar Wave Serpent. You can field a very respectable army fielding nothing but Fire Warriors and Devilfish - just bring some anti-armour weapons.

HQ and Elites choices field some very respectable units in the form of Crisis Suits and Stealth Teams. Effectively your Mechs/Exosuits/Gears. With their ability to take a wide array of guns, on top of their ability to fire at multiple units at the same time, it makes them a very nice support unit for your Fire Warriors. Or, even a front-line squadron if you're brave enough. Crisis Suits also possess Jet Packs, rather than Jump Packs. Which is a really cool bonus to have. As it allows you to move in the Assault phase for move-shoot-move combos like Eldar Jetbikes.

Tau Heavy Support though is what you're really looking at. Broadsides are exactly what their name suggests if you're into Naval Warfare. Broadsides carry Railguns; High-strength guns designed to annihilate whatever they're pointed at. And they do it well too.
This author would be remiss if he didn't also mention Hammerheads. One of the better tanks in the game.

Cons: Tau fold like paper in Assault. What they do in Shooting, they lose out in Assault. Even worse than Necrons. Low Weapon Skill, low Toughness, low Initiative, and no access to Power Weapons or weapons that don't allow saves in Assault. Their decent armour saves them somewhat, but not much.

The Tau also have more than their fair share of 'trap' units. Which, outside of Themed Lists, don't actually do very well.
Like taking Kroot. Kroot are better in Assault than pretty much anything else in the army, but, that's not really saying much. You're best off with more Fire Warriors.
Ethereals are extremely good. But, your opponent will pretty much always target him first. And then he becomes a massive liability for your army.

Like Tyranids and Chaos Marines, it's kind of hard not to go overboard on Wargear options on your Crisis Suits, because they're all just so good. Leaving you fewer points to spend on Fire Warriors. Not only that, Crisis Suits are not Terminators, and don't do real well under fire.

Heavy Support choices are expensive in points. Problem is, if you don't take them, you're seriously missing out on some really impressive firepower options.

Recommendation for Newbs; *** The Battleforce is one of the better ones around, so long as you remember that the Kroot are essentially 'free'; If you didn't pay currency for them, you're under no obligation to use them. Replace them with Fire Warriors as soon as you can. The Tau way of battle also requires a lot of tactics to use well (similar to Eldar), in that you need to prioritise fire and occasionally you have no choice but to sacrifice the odd unit here and there. Tau often play very static roles, unless you shell out extra currency for Devilfish. Which isn't always the best thing in the world. And no. There really isn't a way around being bad at Assault. The best thing you can hope for is that you've shot the crap out of your enemy before they get there.

Ricky S tells us how to get started for the Greater Good (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13056559&postcount=581).

Chaos Daemons (Daemons, CDs)
Daemons. They come out of the Warp to eat your face. That's about all you need to know.
Pros: Chaos Daemons, as an army, possess some of the more powerful units in the game. Strong HQs, strong Elites, reasonably impressive Fast Attack, and some strong Heavy Support in the form of Soul Grinders and Daemon Princes.
The entire army is Invulnerable and sports Eternal Warrior and Fearless on every single unit except the Soul Grinder. But, as a Daemon, the Soul Grinder gets some pretty impressive things on its own. So, Power Weapons and other low AP ranged weapons don't really have any extra effect on Daemons. Your opponent is basically wasting points.
Very powerful Assault army if you can get it there. It only takes three or four models to wipe out an opposing unit of 10 even on a fairly average day.
Very fast army. A number of Beasts/Cavalry and Jump Infantry units, and the whole army Deep Strikes.
High diversity and distinctive imagery of all it's units.
Most of the army is plastic (or soon will be), which keeps currency costs low.

Cons: *Deep Breath* Well, deployment. Before any game even starts, you're at a disadvantage. You can't actually plan with Chaos Daemons. Before the game starts, divide your army in half. Half your army arrives on Turn 1 via Deep Strike, and the rest of the army trickles in over the rest of the game.

...The really annoying part, is that you don't actually get to pick which half you get on the first turn. The only way to make a 'plan' with Daemons, is to have symmetrical halves, so, no matter what comes down, you've got what you want. Which means, all that diversity in models goes out the window as you now need to duplicate every unit. Leading to 'cookie cutter' units. Which nobody really likes - unless you want that.

Yeah, the entire army arrives via Deep Strike and reserves. It's both good and bad, it's more often bad. Since Chaos Daemons have a real lack of shooting. The opposite of Tau, who have low Assault. But, due to Deep Striking, and the disallowance of Assault, your army will get shot at before you get to Assault with your units.

This is solved by 'aggressive Deep Striking', which is ignoring terrain difficulties, and deploying as close to your enemy as you possibly can so you can Assault next turn. This means that you could take casualties from Difficult Terrain, and following Shooting phase from your opponent. To do this, you need lots of models, which costs currency.

The Codex - like Eldar - has a higher-than-normal amount of unit redundancy. Some of those diverse units that you like, just wont be taken because there are other units that can do the same job, better. Like Necrons, Daemons' Elites and Fast Attack choices are mostly just more powerful versions of the Troops units. Because of this reason, Daemons' Troops are pretty lackluster in comparison to everything else. Except that you have to take Troops...well, because they're your Troops. Which is even worse because those Troops units aren't exactly cheap in points.

With such a low save, Fearless is quite often a hindrance. And, unlike Orks or Tyranids, Daemons don't usually have the numbers to keep up a sustained losing-assault. But, Daemons don't usually lose Assault (even with such small unit sizes). So, you've got that.

Recommendation for Newbies: * The deployment rules are like nothing a new player would be able to deal with. Not to mention the complexity and tactics that you need with a Chaos Daemons army in order to win.
** If you really like the imagery and painting/conversion opportunities that Chaos Daemons presents.
Sadly, Daemons are more Cons than Pros unless you build your list a specific way. Which you - a new player - probably wont do.

Grey Knights (GKs):
Super-Massive-Long-Posts-of-DOOOOOOM provided by Cheesegear.
- HQ Choices (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12434419&postcount=922)
- Elite Choices (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12451906&postcount=973)
- Troops, Transports, Fast Attack and Heavy Choices (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12467694&postcount=1018)
- Special Characters (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12488431&postcount=1052)

Recommendation for Newbies: ** or ***
On the one hand, Grey Knights are very hard to build properly. There's lots of weird and wonderful wargear and squads to choose from and they all look so good.... But it's easy to pick all the wrong ones, for all the wrong reasons, and end up paying through the nose for the privelage.

On the other: Get the balance right, pick the right units with the right wargear and send them to do the right tasks, and they can easily break almost any other army in the game apart with surprisingly little effort. Grey Knights are tremendously powerful if you use them correctly. They are utterly unforgiving if you get it wrong.

The Necrons:
Tomb Kings IN SPAAAAAAAACE! Legions of soulless, undying automatons cruising around the galaxy, atomizing everything in their path. Except for the senile, insane ones, who invite you to tea and then atomize you after you've finished the biscuits. What's not to like?

What Winterwind Thinks About Necrons. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12212061&postcount=219)
What Cheesegear Thinks About Necrons. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12253200&postcount=402)
What Cheesegear Thinks About Necron Special Characters. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12259949&postcount=435)

Recommendation for Newbies: ***
Necrons are tough, with good armour and good guns, so it's hard to really use them "badly". It requires a bit of a knack to get the best out of the units in the book though, as well as needing a very careful understanding of their many special rules work and interact.

Orks: *** to ***** depending on how much currency you have (horde army). Extra points because it's the more useful of the AoBR Starter Armies. So, a decent Ork army actually comes stock in the 'newbie box'.

Imperial Guard (IG): * to ***** depending on how much currency you have. A ***** IG army is the single-most expensive army in the entire game. Even more than the old, fully-metal Daemonhunters.
About Imperial Guard Tanks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8434669&postcount=476).

Still to come;
Imperial Guard [2009], Witch Hunters [2003], Sisters of Battle [2011 - WD edition] and Orks [2009].
These armies I have lot of experience with. Send PMs if you believe you have advice that I might leave out.

Actually looking for, or things I can't write myself;
More General Advice (I think I've covered most of it).

SEND PMs. Don't Derail Thread.
Please submit suggestions for additions to the guide to my PM box as to keep from derailing the thread. Also, try and keep it general. Specifics can be delved into after the aspiring player has picked an army.

This hobby breeds opinions like no tomorrow. Please read. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11233427&postcount=624)

---

Previous Threads
* Warhammer 40K Tactics (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29297)
* -II- Tactics for the Tactics God (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101608)
* III - Hats for the Hat Throne (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119333&highlight=Warhammer)
* IV - The Enemy of Your Enemy is Still Your Enemy. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133984&highlight=Warhammer)
* V: Everyone Is On Fire. Some Moreso Than Others. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=141538&highlight=Warhammer)
* VI: Chaos Bringing Eternal Darkness? I brought my flashlight. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149084&highlight=Warhammer)
* VII: Common Sense is not RAW. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156779&highlight=Warhammer)
* VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Maths (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=165820)
* IX: "Mech Is King? I Never Voted For It!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=175990)
* X: "Everybody expects the Inquisition!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=184538)
* XI: "More Threads than your Tactical Squad has Room for!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=193025)
* XII: "Now in Rapid Fire range!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=199750)
* Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=208838)
* Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIV: "Pray for 6s!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=221858)
* Warhammer 40K Tabletop XV: "More People Should Be Punched In The Head." (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=232277)

[Zorg]

Current background, lore and storyline thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=224654).

Current painting, converting and modelling thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=197234) - not just for 40k but for all miniature lines.


--

Wouldn't let me edit them in above, think we've hit the post/tag limit on that one.

[Squark]

Hm... Should we be adding things Like the allies and psychic powers guides people here have recently done?

[Renegade Paladin]

You know, if you're going to post a big 'do not post here' image, the polite thing to do is to make a new thread :smallwink:

Cheesegear complains when people who aren't him start the thread. :smalltongue: And since he maintains the guide, I sort of see his point, especially with a new edition that will surely require changes to it.

[Zorg]

Bah! A pox upon him!

I was hanging around waiting for you to do it and now I've forgotten what I was going to say :smalltongue:


I'm looking forward to seeing what FAQs ForgeWorld bring out so I can hopefully field a kickass Corsair / Dark Eldar list - which can get more crazy as the Corsair list lets you draft in Craftworld units, so you can have all three flavours of conehead in one, legal, list (maybe).


And in other news it's all sorted for me to be going to Games Day - holidays are in at work so should be another good year :smallsmile:



Hm... Should we be adding things Like the allies and psychic powers guides people here have recently done?

Maybe, but when I tired to edit in links to the background and painting threads it wouldn't let me, so I think that intro post is at its limits of tags. More text can be added, but it needs a cull and edit rather badly.

[Wyntonian]

So... I've been reading the Lexicanum, mostly for worldbuilding things to shamelessly steal and I've developed a bit of an interest in this, but I have a question.

How much money (USD) would I need to scrape together to get started in the tabletop game? $20? $120? $1200? How much have you spent? Do you think it's a good use of that money?

[Borgh]

So... I've been reading the Lexicanum, mostly for worldbuilding things to shamelessly steal and I've developed a bit of an interest in this, but I have a question.
great, welcome to the hobby, skulls go over there by the throne and if you ever have rivers of blood on offer let us know.


How much money (USD) would I need to scrape together to get started in the tabletop game? $20? $120? $1200? How much have you spent? Do you think it's a good use of that money?

To get started you would need
A rulebook
a codex
some units, a Battleforce plus some HQ units would be a good starter.
a starterset with paints, glue and other stuff.

if I toss together these things on Games-workshop.com I come at around $300,-
And yes this is a lot. Expect to buy more as I only covered the basics. If you want an armycase, ten more paints and an elite unit you will have to bring $100 more

The amount I've spent over the past decade is not something I feel like contemplating as probably it would amount to a nice long holiday in a warm country. And being a broke-ass student most of that time means I'm not even that big a spender.
Was it worth it? yes. Painting is a great meditative experience to me and many great night were had clashing armies with friends. As a hobby Warhammer is not that expensive. You can drop 200 dollars on a weekend rafting or spend that money on two battleforces spend three weeks painting and an infinity gaming with them.

[Lowkey Lyesmith]

Was it worth it? yes. Painting is a great meditative experience to me and many great night were had clashing armies with friends. As a hobby Warhammer is not that expensive. You can drop 200 dollars on a weekend rafting or spend that money on two battleforces spend three weeks painting and an infinity gaming with them.

This is pretty much all you need to know. Yes it is expensive to build huge amies and have all the nice new things. But the thing is, it don't feel all that expensive (at least not to me, in Sweden). And as soon as you have the core of your army it's mostly about collecting and buying a couple of things now and then.

However if you add all the things I have togheter, hmm, I think I could have paid for my wedding including honeymoon with that...

[Wraith]

To get started you would need
A rulebook
a codex

These two are mandatory. You'll struggle to get the rulebook for less than $50. A great deal of the Codicies can be found second-hand from places like eBay and Amazon, all but the newest at a discounted price.


some units, a Battleforce plus some HQ units would be a good starter.
a starterset with paints, glue and other stuff.

DEFINITELY available from eBay at a massively discounted price, including ones that are assembled and even painted to a reasonable standard. Get good at finding bargains, it will save you a lot of money and headaches, if you're wanting to get into 40k :smallsmile:

You should definitely buy the rulebook first, and then read (but not necessarily buy) several codicies before you buy any models. Decide what you want to do, learn the best way to do it, and then plan very carefully where and how you'll make your purchases. You will otherwise end up with a bunch of expensive stuff that you probably won't need or want. :smallsmile:

[Eldan]

Also, the amount of money you can spend is basically open-ended. There is a world of difference between, say, 1500 points of chaos space marines, and 8000 points of tyranids with special forge world resin models.

[Voidhawk]

Welcome to the hobby! Always good to see a new Thirsting God ready to laugh at the pain of the galaxy!

The best advice I feel able to give for someone just starting is NEVER BUY DIRECT FROM GW if you ever can avoid it. Shopping around online you can easily find 20% or even higher discounts on all their products from 3rd party companies. I use Total Wargamer myself, but it depends alot on where you're based.

Of course this doesn't mean never go to a GW store itself, the people are (in my experience) helpful and friendly, especially with tips on painting; but if you get inspired to buy anything while there, write it down and order it online when you're home. This also helps reduce sudden purchases wrecking your bank balance.

Good luck, and may Tzeentzch smile on your dice!

[Wyntonian]

I found out that a friend of mine has a big ol' stack of codices (codexes?) and a rulebook, so I'm good on that front. How about just models? I plan to screw around with him and his stuff until I find a playstyle I like, but what would a halfway decent beginners set of models run?

I'm also pretty sure that there isn't a GW store in my town, but I'll poke around a couple of hobby shops and such, see if I can find anything.

[Eldan]

Depends quite a bit on the army you want to play. For some armies, the battleforce makes a decent basic army, that comes down to 75 pounds, IIRC. However, for your first few games, ask your friend if you can borrow some of his models to use as proxies. Learn the rules first and play around with some different army lists and races before you go buying.

[Wyntonian]

Oh, last question, (for now, anyway), which rulebook should I get? I've seen 2nd, 5th and 6th editions, is there a hobby standard?

[bluntpencil]

Oh, last question, (for now, anyway), which rulebook should I get? I've seen 2nd, 5th and 6th editions, is there a hobby standard?

6th is current, so 6th.

[Wyntonian]

6th is current, so 6th.

Yeah, but 4e is "current" for D&D, but the 3.5 boards get like 15 times as many posts. Ca you use an older codex with a newer rulebook?

[bluntpencil]

Yeah, but 4e is "current" for D&D, but the 3.5 boards get like 15 times as many posts. Ca you use an older codex with a newer rulebook?

People tend to use what is current, so 6th, definitely. You can use older codices, yes. There are erratas and FAQs on GW's site.

[Eldan]

Yeah, but 4e is "current" for D&D, but the 3.5 boards get like 15 times as many posts. Ca you use an older codex with a newer rulebook?

It's different in Warhammer. People basically never use older material if they can avoid it. Even if some of the new rules are always controversial.

Also, material from different editions is usually compatible. Some of the races have codices that are three editions old now and still sort of work.

[hamishspence]

It isn't quite as extreme in 40K as in Warhammer- the last 3rd ed codex was Witch Hunters- and that got updated in White Dwarf to 5E a few months before 6E came out.

That said- there was a period (6E Warhammer and 3E 40K) where all the codices that came before it were invalidated- and instead people had to use Ravening Hordes (a free supplement) in the case of Warhammer, and the rulebook army lists (in the case of 3e 40K) until new codices came out.

GW hasn't repeated this- trying to ensure old codices remain usable despite edition changes.

[Wyntonian]

That's pretty intelligent, from a commercial standpoint.

By the way, folks, thanks for being so helpful and welcoming. I knew that the playground was the place to turn!

Oh, so I don't clog up the thread with more simple questions, does anyone here mind if I PM them with stuff like that?

Last one, does 40K work on PbP? Is there any way that could possibly function?

[bluntpencil]

That's pretty intelligent, from a commercial standpoint.

By the way, folks, thanks for being so helpful and welcoming. I knew that the playground was the place to turn!

Oh, so I don't clog up the thread with more simple questions, does anyone here mind if I PM them with stuff like that?

Last one, does 40K work on PbP? Is there any way that could possibly function?
It probably wouldn't work so well, since sometimes, the positioning of a single miniature can determine how a battle swings. And by that, I mean if your guy with a power fist is behind another dude or in front of him, or a little to the left...

[Eldan]

Feel free to PM or Skype me if you want. Or ask questions here, really, that's what the thread is for.

Also, I'd call it about impossible in PbP. It's almost entirely battle focused, and battles are notoriously difficult in PbP. On top of that, it does not use a grid of any kind while placing a lot of weight on positioning and has dozens to hundreds of entities acting, not just maybe six to ten.

There is a way to play 40k online for free, but I think we are not supposed to mention it.

[Razgriez]

In truth, to play regular tabletop 40k online is impossible to my knowledge. All that is for online are official RTS games like Dawn of War, or First/Third person shooters (such as Fire Warrior, and Space Marine)

If you are looking for a more Play by Post friendly version of 40k, you're best bet would be the Dark Heresy/Death Watch/Rogue Trader RPG series.

[Tome]

PBP doesn't work for 40K, but if you really want to play it online look into a program called Vassal. It kind of misses some of the point of the game though, if you ask me.

That said, there's a line of very good 40K RPGs that do work on PBP, if that's what you want. Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader, Deathwatch, Black Crusade and Only War.

[lord_khaine]

Now that Vehicles are suddenly a lot more squishy, then im wondering if my Wraithlords would be worth including in the army again, what do you people think?

[Cheesegear]

Now that Vehicles are suddenly a lot more squishy, then im wondering if my Wraithlords would be worth including in the army again, what do you people think?

No. Because Monstrous Creatures that don't fly/jump are even squishier. Grenades can be used on Monstrous Creatures now. You can't just run into a unit of Marines or something and tarpit them for four turns. Even if they don't have Grenades, you can always choose to fail a Morale check against an enemy you can't hurt.

Support batteries are still the go-to support choice. Especially because Artillery doesn't suck anymore. Support Batteries got better.

[Renegade Paladin]

So where's our clever thread title? :smalltongue:

[Squark]

So, was playing around with the special weapons in my bits box, and I noticed how 2 of the Plasma Pistols seem made to go with each other for dual wielding. Just wondering how effective people think 48 points for dual plasma pistol-wielding wolf guard is. I suspect that even with precision fire, it's a bad idea, but man did it look cool.

[Cheesegear]

So where's our clever thread title? :smalltongue:

It's what happens when I don't make threads. :smallwink:
Anyway, I'll get to writing that second half of the Allies now.

EDIT: No thread title is better than ANYthing to do with ponies.

[ZeltArruin]

Warhammer 40K Tabletop, thread XVI: No thread title is better than ANYthing to do with ponies.

Fixed that for you!

[BoSheck]

So, was playing around with the special weapons in my bits box, and I noticed how 2 of the Plasma Pistols seem made to go with each other for dual wielding. Just wondering how effective people think 48 points for dual plasma pistol-wielding wolf guard is. I suspect that even with precision fire, it's a bad idea, but man did it look cool.

Well, technically since characters can snipe out individual models they shoot at and wolf guard attatched to squads are characters.... (Just hit me: CML wolfguard attatched to grey hunters get to take care of those pesky Sanguinary priests hiding in jumper squads no problemo.)
But we're talking quite a bit of points for a plasma pistoleer, and woofs lack the ability to get FNP, or Plasma Insurance, PLUS the changes to rapid fire make actual plasma guns, or even combi-weapons more attractive.

I could have seen it if pistols did what we wanted them to in close combat, but sadly, with a codex full of good, cheap options, we have to leave the dual pistols to someone else.

[Zorg]

EDIT: No thread title is better than ANYthing to do with ponies.

Hot dog, we have a wiener! And I've edited one in, I was leaving it a bit to decide anyways.

There are quite a few blog posts and breakdowns of how much each army costs to start around, though geared towards the previous edition so not 100% 'accurate' now, but you're looking at around $500 at least. There should be a new starter set coming out soon with the rules and lots of minis though.
But how much you can spend is very open ended - I've easily spent over $15,000 over the years.

[Tome]

So, was playing around with the special weapons in my bits box, and I noticed how 2 of the Plasma Pistols seem made to go with each other for dual wielding. Just wondering how effective people think 48 points for dual plasma pistol-wielding wolf guard is. I suspect that even with precision fire, it's a bad idea, but man did it look cool.

It doesn't sound too bad actually. Maybe give him the MotW so he still has a boost in CC?

[LeSwordfish]

So, how's this looking as a 6th Ed army?

HQ
Coteaz 100
Probably 2 divination powers

Ordo Xenos Inquisitor Rourke 91
Rad Grenades, dude.
Combi Bolter-melta
Psyker- Force Sword, Probably Divination
Power Armour (Odds are he'll be diving into the fray to make use of the hammerhand and grenades)
Servo-skull

ELITES
Purifier squad -203
2 extra purifiers
2 Psycannons
5 Halberds
Knight gets Master-crafted weapons

Vindicare assassin-145

TROOPS
Henchman squad- 140
2 Jokaero
10 warriors
-Storm Bolters

Henchman squad- 140
2 Jokaero
10 warriors
-Storm Bolters

Henchman squad- 140
2 Jokaero
10 warriors
-Storm Bolters

Henchman squad- 125
3 Crusaders
9 Warriors
-3 Meltaguns
-6 Storm bolters

Henchman squad- 125
3 Crusaders
9 Warriors
-3 Meltaguns
-6 Storm bolters

ALLIES -IMPERIAL GUARD
Company Command Squad- 70
Lascannon


Veteran Squad- 90
Lascannon

Vendetta gunship- 130

[bluntpencil]

Right, are Psykers 100% necessary to be competitive now? It looks it, which is a shame.

I was thinking the 6th Company of the Crimson Fists would be good (and cheap, money-wise) to play. Also fun, and potentially powerful.

Basically, a tooled up Captain on a Bike with a Command Squad (storm shields ahoy) and two full Bike Squads (melta!), as well as two Stormtalons to provide anti-infantry, and to missile other flyers.

Not going for Korsarro Khan, since a normal Captain, tooled to the max with Artificer armour, a Storm Shield, a thunder hammer and hellfire rounds for his bike costs the same points. Sure, don't get furious charge, but dying won't happen to him. And he'll look like Lysander, except on a bike, so that's badass.

I don't really want to waste points on a Librarian on a Bike, although taking only one Stormtalon is a possibility. This will cost less money, too, I think!

Actually, thinking on it, Librarian sounds good..

Thoughts?



Captain Olbyn Kadena: 205 points

Captain
Bike
Thunder Hammer
Storm Shield
Hellfire Rounds

Command Squad: 335 points

Company Standard
3 meltaguns
1 power fist
4 Storm shields

Librarian: 135 points

Bike
Machine Curse and Null Zone

Bike Squad: 310 points

5 extra bikes
2 meltaguns
1 attack bike with multi-melta
1 power fist

Bike Squad: 310 points

5 extra bikes
2 meltaguns
1 attack bike with multi-melta
1 power fist

Stormtalon: 155 points

Skyhammer missiles

50 points left over. Could be spent on a Land Speeder with a Heavy Bolter.

The Librarian, Captain and Command Squad make for a pretty awesome Death Star, against vehicles and 2+ infantry alike, thanks to melta, Null Zone and Machine Curse.

The Bike Squads aren't to be sniffed at either, packing plenty melta, and T5 power fists hidden in there.

The Stormtalon is there to chew up light infantry and to fire missiles at flyers. Also to get shot at by flyers, saving the Bikers.

[Cheesegear]

Grey Knights
Grey; None.

Decent HQ, Decent Elites, strong Troops, strong Fast Attack, strong Heavy Support.

Grey Knights don't really want Allies. The only Allies really worth considering are Blood Angels for another Flyer in Heavy Support. Other than that, most Marine armies can bring you Teleport Homers or Locator Beacons and Imperial Guard and Eldar can give you +1 to your Reserve rolls. But, what you really want is more Deep Striking Melta and maybe even some Plasma to deal with opposing 2+ Armour since your Force Weapons don't really cut it - excuse the pun. If you want Allies, look for something that's fast.

HQ; Check the Grand Master's ability. Units are Scoring. Even when you're Blue Allies. This is actually useful for Orks and Dark Eldar. Otherwise Inquisitors are good too if you need to be cheap because what you really want is everything else...
Elites; Warbands don't take a slot. Purifiers are always a solid choice if you bring enough of them. Only bring Paladins if you're bringing Draigo too.
Troops; Paladins. But it's always worth looking at Strike Knights because Warp Quake really is that good. Terminators are okay if Dark Angel Allies are unavailable to you.
Fast Attack; Stormravens.
Heavy Support; Since you can't spam Psyflemen, taking a Purgation squad isn't a bad idea since Psycannons really are that good.

Imperial Guard
Grey; Black Templars, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Sisters of Battle, Space Marines, Space Wolves

Strong HQ, weak Elites, Strong Toops, decent Fast Attack, strong Heavy Support.

I'll be honest. Imperial Guard don't want Allies. Maybe some Scoring Deathwing, or a squad of Strike Knights or two. But that's about it. The more points you spend on other things are less points you're spending on Imperial Guard. More points available to you equals more Infantry and Tanks which are way better than most other Codecies. That said, Imperial Guard don't want Allies much, but everyone else wants Imperial Guard because they have something good in every slot.

HQ; Command Squads bring +1 to Reserves, -1 Opponent Reserves. Lots of Plasma or Melta.
Elites; Meh. Ratlings are okay because they're cheap and a unit full of Sniper weapons.
Troops; Lots and lots of Scoring units if your parent Codex has bad and/or expensive Troops. Heavy Weapon squads are a very important source of cheap Autocannons and Lascannons.
Fast Attack; Vendettas come 3 to a squadron.
Heavy; Leman Russes come 3 to a squadron.

Necrons
Grey; None.

Strong HQ, Decent Elites, Strong Troops, decent Fast Attack, Strong Heavy Support.

Your options are Chaos Space Marines (what?), Grey Knights (what?), Orks (what?) and Tau. Chaos Space Marines are an okay choice. Grey Knights are fine. Stay away from Orks and Tau are only trying to do what you're already doing. Necrons don't want to be Allies since they want to spam everything they own, but, if you must...

HQ; Imotekh is helpful. But Overlords are okay as well.
Elites; Deathmarks are an entire unit of Snipers which are kind of amazing.
Troops; Warriors bring lots of Gauss. That's all you want. Night Scythes are Flyers.
Fast Attack; Scarabs are crazy annoying.
Heavy Support; Doom Scythe is a Flyer.

Typically you're bringing Necrons to bring one or more of 3 things;
1. Lots of Gauss.
2. Lots of AV13.
3. Lots of Flyers.

Orks
Grey; None.

Decent HQ, Decent Elites, weak Troops, weak Fast Attack, weak Heavy Support.

Your options are Chaos Space Marines, Imperial Guard, Necrons and Tau. Chaos brings a couple of units of Plague Marines, Imperial Guard can bring some real Lascannons and Autocannons to the table to help you out, and Necrons and Tau bring some proper, survivable shooting power to your side while your Orks can try to Assault. Orks really don't want to be the parent Codex though since the only good thing they have - really - are Nob Bikers, so just take those and go with a good parent Codex.

HQ; Kustom Force Fields are very handy. Or a Warboss if you want some Troops.
Elites; Snikrot's Kommandos are helpful. And you can have a second unit of Nob Bikers here.
Troops; Nob Bikers are a very tough unit that Imperial Guard and Necrons probably wont have normally. The only issue is that Nob Bikers are expensive and you probably want to spend points on your parent list.
Fast Attack; Pick your favourite Ork flyer.
Heavy Support; None? Save your points? Buy more Bikers.

Sisters of Battle
Grey; Imperial Guard

But your other choices are Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Grey Knights, Space Marines and Space Wolves. Typically your best best will be Dark Angels or Grey Knights, since they bring strong, hard units to the table. Space Wolves and Marines will only bring you more Bolters in Power Armour which you already have. Blood Angels can bring you some decent Assault units. But, so do Grey Knights. Imperial Guard just brings more bodies and more tanks.

Due to the Faith Cap, Sisters actually do okay as Allies since they'll always have enough Faith to go 'round, and they don't really have any spammable units outside of Heavy Support which means they're not exactly ideal as the parent Codex anyway.

HQ; Canoness and Command Squad can bring another Melta unit to the table. And Battle Conclaves are always good. But Grey Knights can do that too.
Elites; Repentia Squads are a very nice choice for Imperial Guard. Feel No Pain, Fleet and Rage give a very strong Assault unit that you probably don't otherwise have.
Troops; Battle Sisters. Cheap Scoring Bolters. Can go up to 20 models. Why not?
Fast Attack; Meh. None of your available Allies have worse Fast Attack than you do. So let your parent Codex use the points.
Heavy Support; Retributors are very good if you need a source of Rending Heavy Bolters to just glance the poop out of something. Exorcists really do want to be spammed though to get the most out of their random Missiles.

Don't forget to bring Immolators.

Space Marines
Grey; Black Templars, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Imperial Guard, Space Wolves and Tau.

Strong HQ, Strong Elites, decent Troops, Strong Fast Attack, okay Heavy Support.

There's some really messed up things you can do with Space Marines. But you have to remember that your Combat Tactics doesn't affect anyone except you.

HQ;
Sicarius lets you re-roll the StI roll. Pair with Imotekh or Vect to make it 4+. He also has FNP and 2+ Armour for unkillableness.
Pedro makes Sternguard Scoring, even when you're Blue Allies.
Lysander makes your Aegis Defense Line even more broken. And sticking him in a unit of Long Fangs with Heavy Bolters can be fun. But, even if he does slow them down, Lysander in a large squad of Death Company works wonders.
Shrike will let you Infiltrate said unit of Death Company. And he has Fleet so wont slow them down at all. Or you could Infiltrate some Thunderwolves. Y'know. Break the game.
He'Stan is definitely a good pick if your army needs more Melta (Grey Knights).
Kor'Sarro lets everyone Outflank, and he - or any Captain - on a Bike makes Bikes Troops...And Bikes are really good. Bring two big units. And a Command Squad. Outflank everything. Definitely a choice for Imperial Guard and an Astropath. Otherwise Kor'Sarro can give H&R and Furious Charge to a big unit of Black Templars or Imperial Guard Infantry.

Bike Command Squads don't take an FO Slot and absolutely ruin things.

Librarians bring Null Zone. No. The new discipline powers are not better.

Elites; Suicide Sternguard is fun. Deep Strike means you're not on the board anyway, and Pedro can make them Scoring. Always a consideration, even for Blue Allies.
Troops; Bikes as Troops is bananas. Take big units. Otherwise a full unit of Scouts and Telion makes Snipering fun. Precision Shots are hilarious.
Fast Attack; Stormtalon if you want to Outflank things. Otherwise Land Speeders come with a lot of firepower for kind-of cheap, or can just be a simple source of Heavy Flamer templates for Imperial Guard and Tau.
Heavy Support; Nothing you couldn't really bring if you were Allied to any other Marine Codex, but worse. Most of the good stuff is in the Troops and HQ parts anyway.

Space Wolves
Grey; Black Templars, Blood Angels, Imperial Guard, Space Marines

Strong HQs, decent Elites, Strong Troops, decent Fast Attack, Strong Heavy Support. No Flyers.

Space Wolves really, really want to be the parent list. Do not go and take their slots from them. Dark Angels and Grey Knights can bring cheaper Terminators than Logan can, and that's about it, really. The only thing Wolves actually want are Flyers. So, Imperial Guard or Blood Angels.

HQ; Njal. lawl. Rune Priests come two-to-a-slot. Don't bother with Logan. If you want that kind of Alliance, bring Dark Angels or Grey Knights instead.
Elites; Wolf Scouts are always good. But if you can't otherwise get it, a big Wolf Guard unit full of Characters is always fun.
Troops; Grey Hunters.
Fast Attack; Thunderwolves for everyone! Especially for Imperial Guard, Sisters or Eldar.
Heavy Support; Long Fangs are for winners.

Tau
Grey; Space Marines and Eldar.

Decent HQ, Decent Elites, Decent Troops, weak Fast Attack, strong Heavy Support. No Flyers.

Tau don't specifically stand out in any area except Heavy Support, and, even then, so do a lot of armies. Typically you'll want to go with Allies who augment your anti-Infantry fire with lots of anti-tank fire that you don't have on your Troops. Dark Angels, Imperial Guard and Necrons are your best choices, IG and Necrons can also bring Flyers for you.

This is your standard Tau Allies build. Don't bother deviating, it wont work.

HQ; Commander. Bodyguards don't take slots.
Elites; Crisis Suits.
Troops; Fire Warriors. Bring EMP Grenades. Watch 'wussy' Fire Warriors bring down Dreadnoughts in Assault.
Fast Attack; Markerlights don't work for non-Tau. Take Piranhas for Melta support (Dark Angels, Grey Knights, etc.)
Heavy Support; Broadsides. If Sniper Teams had 'Sniper' they might be worth considering, but they don't, so the name doesn't make sense. So just bring Broadsides.

Tyranids
Can't ally with anyone.

Copy-Pasted into previous half.
Full post link for Guide/OP. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13492157&postcount=1424)

[Borgh]

Impressive as always CG.

[Squark]

@Cheesegear: Couple of comments on the Space Wolves bit:

1) Runic Weapons do exactly what they always did. But Psychic Hoods don't. Runic Weapons also don't care if you're not with Battle Brothers, since it's the enemy using the power that they cancel, not it affecting an allied unit (unlike Psychic hoods again). Therefore, even a bare bones Rune Priest is a fantastic addition to a list. Give him 2 divination powers, and you've got a great support unit.
2) Wolf Scouts can't assault the turn they come out of reserves anymore (well, no one can, but you get my point). So Gunline no longer really cares about them. So, not that great anymore.


Right, are Psykers 100% necessary to be competitive now? It looks it, which is a shame.

I was thinking the 6th Company of the Crimson Fists would be good (and cheap, money-wise) to play. Also fun, and potentially powerful.

Basically, a tooled up Captain on a Bike with a Command Squad (storm shields ahoy) and two full Bike Squads (melta!), as well as two Stormtalons to provide anti-infantry, and to missile other flyers.

Not going for Korsarro Khan, since a normal Captain, tooled to the max with Artificer armour, a Storm Shield, a thunder hammer and hellfire rounds for his bike costs the same points. Sure, don't get furious charge, but dying won't happen to him. And he'll look like Lysander, except on a bike, so that's badass.

I don't really want to waste points on a Librarian on a Bike, although taking only one Stormtalon is a possibility. This will cost less money, too, I think!

Actually, thinking on it, Librarian sounds good..

Thoughts?



Captain Olbyn Kadena: 205 points

Captain
Bike
Thunder Hammer
Storm Shield
Hellfire Rounds

Command Squad: 335 points

Company Standard
3 meltaguns
1 power fist
4 Storm shields

Librarian: 135 points

Bike
Machine Curse and Null Zone

Bike Squad: 310 points

5 extra bikes
2 meltaguns
1 attack bike with multi-melta
1 power fist

Bike Squad: 310 points

5 extra bikes
2 meltaguns
1 attack bike with multi-melta
1 power fist

Stormtalon: 155 points

Skyhammer missiles

50 points left over. Could be spent on a Land Speeder with a Heavy Bolter.

Kahn is White Scars, not crimson fists :smallconfused: Also, the Crimson fists don't have a 6th company, if memory serves. They're down to about 300 marines, if memory serves.

As far as the list goes... I don't see any glaring problems, but I'd hardly consider bikes a budget list.

[bluntpencil]

Kahn is White Scars, not crimson fists :smallconfused: Also, the Crimson fists don't have a 6th company, if memory serves. They're down to about 300 marines, if memory serves.

As far as the list goes... I don't see any glaring problems, but I'd hardly consider bikes a budget list.

Ah, they currently have about 500 guys. I figured they'd be split across multiple companies, all under strength. Also, their 6th Company Captain is listed as still alive on Lexicanum, so went with him (that's where I got his name from :) ). He's one of the few listed as not dead, and the 6th Company, in Codex Chapters, often ride bikes. :D

Khan, was thinking of 'rename a Captain from another Chapter' as the Codex says. Personally, I prefer an unkillable tank of a man on a bike. Fits Fists better.

Bikes, I feel, make for a budget list, since you can get the bits on Ebay real cheap.

[Olinser]

Grey Knights

Tyranids
Can't ally with anyone.


Not only that, but outflanking troops can't assault the turn they come in, so genestealers are no longer a real threat from reserve. Warriors still get IDed by S8 and above, and with the new wound rules its almost impossible for a Prime to shield them from missle shots. On the plus side, boneswords still rape terminator face :)

Tyranids can't manual fire emplaced weapons EVER, which means that not only can they not get Flyers - flying monstrous creatures get no bonuses against Flyers, and unless they FAQ it, if a FMC gets HIT (thats HIT, not wound!), they take a 3+ save, and if they fail they plow into the ground, take a S9 hit no saves (basically an autowound), and can be shot normally, but Tyranids have absolutely no Skyfire weapons, don't have any kind of Flyer, can't take an ally that DOES have flyers, and if they take a weapon emplacement that has Skyfire, it is stuck on autofire, so it'll probably never target what you want hit!

So all the shiny new toys that everybody else gets to play with? Nids are kind of stuck in the corner with nothing to do. I'm definitely shelving them in favor of my new Grey Knights until a new codex comes along and fixes them (I mean they were never top tier before, but now they're all the way on the bottom).

[bluntpencil]

Whilst I think most of the changes are great, some things just jump at me.

Tyranids not having Genestealer Cult allies is one thing.

Another is Space Marines not getting Divination. "What?!" I hear you cry. Tigurius is specifically made out to be a Diviner in the fluff. He has an ability called 'Prescience', dammit. Remove Pyromancy or Telepathy in favour of Divination for Marines, urgh...

[SynissterSyster]

I get my DE Codex tomorrow and also am sitting down with the owner of the shop to hammer out an army. The owner has been playing since last Novemeber so hopefully will get some good informaiton from him. All in all I am excited. I will probably get a rule book later because the shop has one and I will be playing there a lot then other places.

[Hootman]

(I mean they were never top tier before, but now they're all the way on the bottom).

Ork player here--I want my bottom rung back. :smalltongue:

While I do agree that Genestealers were nerfed into the ground, Flying Monsterous Creatures (of which the Nid Codex has at least 3 if memory serves) seem to be incredibly powerful with the new ruleset. My Nid-Bro is planning on returning to the old Nidzilla style list, but with Flyrants and Harpies instead of 900 Carnifexes (he'll still probably field a trio of those, barebones, and charge them forward for the Rage Rule).

Speaking of the rage rule, Hormagaunts love being in front. Move, Run like crazy, move out of Synapse. Move, Assault, re-roll any offending dice, dive into the enemy lines with some 5 attacks each, scything talons, and Furious / Toxin for a re-rollable 4+ to wound against MEq. Sure, they have the same unfortunate weakness to getting shot in the face that they always did, but if you were worried about losing bodies, you'd buy even more bodies and a Venomthrope. Or play GK Paladins instead, or something.


Elites; Snikrot's Kommandos are helpful.

Since your Reserves can no longer come racing on to the field and jump right into an assault, I just can't figure out how Kommandos can be of any use. I love my Kommandos (many of them delightful minor conversions), and I love my Snikrot, but now they seem so useless to me. Are you seeing something I'm not?

[Cheesegear]

Tyranids can't manual fire emplaced weapons EVER, which means that not only can they not get Flyers - flying monstrous creatures get no bonuses against Flyers

Vector Strikes on FMCs. It's a pretty poor defense if you're going first. But it still works. It works better when you can totally random roll the first Biomancy power every time because random dice totally work like that. :smallannoyed:

But, otherwise yeah. Along with Orks, Tyranids got the hard nerf. They were good for a brief time as they had some of the best Grey Knight-killing units in the game, and thus one of the Codecies in the game if you were in the meta-game of 60% Grey Knights. At least 'Nids are still better than Orks.


And here's why Flyers destroy the hobby;
The best defense against Flyers is other Flyers. Optional Skyfire means they can shoot at anything they want depending on the phase and aren't rendered useless if your opponent doesn't have any Flyers of their own or all the Flyers are dead. Unlike Hydras which become useless very quickly.

Arguably, the best Flyer in the game is the Vendetta. Good armour. And Trip-Lascannons for busting other Flyers.

If I'm playing against Imperial Guard, let's say he has two Vendettas. 260 Points...In addition to everything else.

I want my own Flyers damn it! But I'm playing with a Codex that doesn't have any Flyers. Dark Angels, Space Wolves or Tau, for example as they're popular armies. Poop. Looks like I'm forced to Ally with someone who can shoot down those Vendettas. But, most Flyers are found in the Fast or Heavy sections, and, unless I'm Allying with Guard or Necrons, I can only take one Flyer. All of these Flyers (since they're the only units I'm interested in, since Space Wolves can do everything), have additional HQ and Troops points attachments that I'm forced to take, and, again, I can only take one Flyer usually.

So, f* that. How 'bout I just play an army that can take as many Flyers as it wants without extraneous points costs attached? I've already got an HQ and a Troops, why do I need to take more of them to have access to a Flyer?

And that's why everybody is jumping to Blood Angels, Necrons, Grey Knights and Imperial Guard (if you weren't already in 5th), because they can take as many Flyers as they can afford. Interestingly enough, also, even before 'The Flyer Factor', these four are the armies that also least want Allies anyway.


EDIT: Snikrot's Kommandos indeed do suck. So I took that out. But Outflanking Bikes with Kahn still works because Bikers are good at shooting with Meltaguns and Flamers and can bring a Stormtalon with them. Wolf Scouts are less powerful than they were, but they're still decent in an Allied detachment, which is why they're there.

[Borgh]

what do you think of the DE fliers? to me they just seem a bit flimsy in comparison to the others, although I don't know the Ork and potato fliers. In 5th this was compensated by being ludriculously fast and having (and paying for) the rules to handle that but in 6th I'm not so sure.

[bluntpencil]

I'm still betting on every missile launcher getting Flakks soon enough.

[lord_khaine]

I'm still betting on every missile launcher getting Flakks soon enough.

After everyone has bought their flyers of course :smalltongue:

[bluntpencil]

After everyone has bought their flyers of course :smalltongue:

Oh, god, yeah.

[Squark]

After everyone has bought their flyers of course :smalltongue:

:smallsigh: Suddenly, the reason flakk missiles aren't in the FAQs yet makes sense.

[bluntpencil]

:smallsigh: Suddenly, the reason flakk missiles aren't in the FAQs yet makes sense.

I really hate listening to that huge, cynical, part of me, but I can't help it. It seems so true.

[Eldan]

Luckily, I don't play much 40k anyway. I'll just play some more fantasy until the next Eldar codex comes out.

[Hootman]

After everyone has bought their flyers of course :smalltongue:

Suddenly, playing Orks doesn't seem all that bad. :smallamused:

Take some balsa wood, cut plasticard, throw in a little duct tape....and BAM. $1.00 Flyers. Armor's dead-on for the real thing, and they're the only flyer you can actually crash without breaking anything important.

[thedavo]

I was going to buy Snikrot and a bunch of Kommandos. However, the entire point of them has been written out the game now, so I'll just get an extra Dakkajet now. Seems the best way of my Orks getting anti-air support, it seems pretty much mandatory now. Especially if I come across a Daemonic or Nid flying Circus.

Orks seem to have been hit really hard, it's a bit frustrating. Good job that my army's more Dakka, less Choppa.

Will be doing a Chaos army when the new 'dex is out - the (almost definite) plastic cultists in the box set have pretty much swung it for me.

[Eldan]

Do Eldar actually have anything anti-flyer in the codex? I don't remember anything, and Apocalypse will need an update first before it becomes playable.

[Eldan]

Do Eldar actually have anything anti-flyer in the codex? I don't remember anything, and Apocalypse will need an update first before it becomes playable.

[Lowkey Lyesmith]

Do Eldar actually have anything anti-flyer in the codex? I don't remember anything, and Apocalypse will need an update first before it becomes playable.

Well, they do have an apocalypse unit with AA-mount for 200+points. However I did not notice thar unit in the Eldar errata.

So, no, they don't. At least not yet.

[Squark]

Do Eldar actually have anything anti-flyer in the codex? I don't remember anything, and Apocalypse will need an update first before it becomes playable.

Well... Allies and Aegis Defense lines. To be fair, though, the only people with anti-air are people with fliers and Guard (who have Basalisks, although those aren't great because they're dedicated anti-air).

[bluntpencil]

To be fair, for Eldar, you could just take Dark Eldar allies, and convert their Razorwing to be less spiky and evil.

Could do the same for their other troops. 'They're not Dark Eldar, honest.'

[hamishspence]

Or use the Corsairs Imperial Armour 11 rules. That has stats for the Eldar flyers. Allowing them to count as supersonic skimmers in non-apocalypse games.

Under the new rules they'd be supersonic flyers.

[Lowkey Lyesmith]

Or use the Corsairs Imperial Armour 11 rules. That has stats for the Eldar flyers. Allowing them to count as supersonic skimmers in non-apocalypse games.

Under the new rules they'd be supersonic flyers.

How would imperial Thunderbolts count? I don't have any new forge world books since Raid on Kastorel Novem.

[Eldan]

Or use the Corsairs Imperial Armour 11 rules. That has stats for the Eldar flyers. Allowing them to count as supersonic skimmers in non-apocalypse games.

Under the new rules they'd be supersonic flyers.

But they don't have hull points. So, would they be playable?

[Renegade Paladin]

Well... Allies and Aegis Defense lines. To be fair, though, the only people with anti-air are people with fliers and Guard (who have Basalisks, although those aren't great because they're dedicated anti-air).
You mean Hydras. Basilisks are big, honkin' S9 ordnance field guns. :smalltongue:

[Olinser]

Vector Strikes on FMCs. It's a pretty poor defense if you're going first. But it still works. It works better when you can totally random roll the first Biomancy power every time because random dice totally work like that. :smallannoyed:

But, otherwise yeah. Along with Orks, Tyranids got the hard nerf. They were good for a brief time as they had some of the best Grey Knight-killing units in the game, and thus one of the Codecies in the game if you were in the meta-game of 60% Grey Knights. At least 'Nids are still better than Orks.



Yes, Vector Strikes does work, but if I am reading Armourbane correctly, you only get 2d6 armour penetration in CLOSE COMBAT. And Vector Strikes is not close combat (in fact, it counts as firing a shooting weapon). So... for a Flyrant I get D3+1 S6 hits with only d6 pen on side armour, which for most flyers is 11 or 12. So yeah... I might as well be firing from the ground, that's not going to bring down anything very quickly.

Also, Flying Monstrous Creatures are MUCH worse than people think - all you have to do is HIT them while they are swooping, and they take a 3+ save - and if they fail, they take a S9 hit with no save, and then are grounded and will be torn apart by missiles or lascannons just like they were in 5th.

Although with the first Biomancy power I could have a T9 Hive Tyrant... hells yeah :P.

It's not so much that Tyranids got a big nerf in and of themselves, it's that they are the ONLY army in the entire game that can take no allies and can't fire weapon emplacements! Not only is that a RIDICULOUS decision from a balance standpoint, even from the standpoint of fluff it would be VERY easy to justify allies. Any 'ally' the Tyranid player has is either:

A) Genestealer Cult (if I recall correctly when they were in the game, every 3rd or 4th generation was indistinguishable from the host species)

or B) Being completely mind controlled via parasites by the Tyranid collective - and their relative 'ally ranking' represents how easy or hard it is for the Tyranids to maintain control of them.

The introduction of allies means that armies can shore up their major weaknesses - swarm armies can take an ally with heavy vehicles, elite armies can take a meat shield to hide behind, the sky's the limit. Nids... are the only codex stuck with the codex troops and nothing else.

[Wyntonian]

Sorry to interrupt the shop talk, but I've been wondering how people actually measure distances.

I mean, do you have a tape measure? Yardstick? string and ruler? I know the mats can be pretty big, and my first couple games will probably be outdoors (we will, not our models), so this is kinda worth considering. How do you do it?

[LeSwordfish]

Tape measure. Rulers are too short, mostly. The kind of tape measure that rolls up or the kind thatis basically string with numbers is a choice up to you. I prefer the roll-up kind, if only because you can clip it at one distance, and hold it with one hand to move stuff with the other.

[Olinser]

Sorry to interrupt the shop talk, but I've been wondering how people actually measure distances.

I mean, do you have a tape measure? Yardstick? string and ruler? I know the mats can be pretty big, and my first couple games will probably be outdoors (we will, not our models), so this is kinda worth considering. How do you do it?

Tape measure. The GW one is pretty small and handy (you don't want one of the big outdoor ones), and there is also a handy triangle that most hobby shots sell that is 6' by 4' by 2'/3' in the sides, 6' is the measurement you'll be making 3/4 of the time. You can't really get away without either you or your opponent having a tape measure - especially for long range weapons that have 36' or 48' ranges.

[Renegade Paladin]

Tape measure. The GW one is pretty small and handy (you don't want one of the big outdoor ones)
I have a 25 foot piece of hardware because I insist on being able to measure the entire range of all my weapons, and Basilisks clock in at 240". :smallbiggrin:

[Wyntonian]

I have a 25 foot piece of hardware because I insist on being able to measure the entire range of all my weapons, and Basilisks clock in at 240". :smallbiggrin:

That's dedication.


Related question, what size of mat do you guys use? I'll be camping, and probably just playing on the ground or something, and I'd like to know what size square to scratch out. Do you even need a defined area?

Note that we probably won't be getting above 1750 points per army, absolute max. Probably more like 500-1000.

[Borgh]

Usually you play on a 4x4' or 4x6' battlefield, however there are a thousand scenarios out there and many use weird deployments or even strange boards, one scenario in the book takes place on a scale model starfortress.

I reccomend to go get the book and read it, it'll answer many of your questions.

[Tome]

We play on 48" by 48" tables at the FLGS, but my meta leans more towards lower points games. Anything over 1500 gets a 48" by 72".

I don't know of anyone who'd play it outside. Maybe it's just British weather and all.

[Penguinizer]

I have a 25 foot piece of hardware because I insist on being able to measure the entire range of all my weapons, and Basilisks clock in at 240". :smallbiggrin:

Same for me. I mean, how else am I suppose to measure the range of my apocalypse missile launcher. :smallbiggrin:

[Eldan]

Standard field size, as far as I know, is 48" by 48".

[iyaerP]

Same for me. I mean, how else am I suppose to measure the range of my apocalypse missile launcher. :smallbiggrin:

Seriously. Need the big tape for when you want to shoot the game four tables away. :smallcool:

[Penguinizer]

Seriously. Need the big tape for when you want to shoot the game four tables away. :smallcool:

You never know when you need to drop some pieplates on the store cash register. :smallbiggrin:

[BoSheck]

6x4 is our usual table size. That's what I gravitate toward as a T/O, with 25% coverage for terrain. Obviously the terrain rules have, technically, adjusted, my intention is to monitor NOVA and other limelight tournaments and see just how they handle fortifications and what have you.

Edit: I find that a regular tape measure like you might get in a hardware store is sufficient. Something capable of measuring out to 48" is what you want. I don't feel the need for anything bigger, but since we're bragging about range, I'd need a GPS relay to get accurate distances on Living Lightning.

[Renegade Paladin]

Standard field size, as far as I know, is 48" by 48".
No, standard is 48" by 72". I mean, it's in the rulebook, or was in 5th. GW has delayed our 6th edition shipments because they hate their customers. Playing on 48" by 48" drastically skews the game in favor of assault armies.

[Cheesegear]

Anyway, here's a shortlist;

Parent Codecies; Blood Angels, Grey Knights, Imperial Guard, Necrons
'Allies Only'; Chaos Daemons, Orks, Tau

If you want to take any of the above with whatever army you want, make sure they're in the slot that they actually want to be in. If your armies of choice are not on this list (i.e; Marines and Space Wolves), then have them in whatever detachment suits you best.


Until a real FAQ comes out detailing what gets the Flakk Missiles, I'm going to hold off on buying nine Flyers for myself. If the Errata comes back and says that Flakk Missiles are for everyone, then Flyers are worth dirt and everyone goes back to spamming Missile Launchers like 5th Ed. and nothing about the meta-game changes at all.

[lord_khaine]

Until a real FAQ comes out detailing what gets the Flakk Missiles, I'm going to hold off on buying nine Flyers for myself. If the Errata comes back and says that Flakk Missiles are for everyone, then Flyers are worth dirt and everyone goes back to spamming Missile Launchers like 5th Ed. and nothing about the meta-game changes at all.

Ahh, but according to my prediction we wont get a Errata on Flakk missiles before you have bought at least 2-3 flyers :smalltongue:

[Squark]

Judging by the text, flakk missiles will likely be widely available, but they'll be an upgrade.

[Renegade Paladin]

Which might make me actually spam missile launchers instead of lascannons. I had another pair of Valkyries under consideration anyway, though, so the edition change is still tipping the balance in favor of getting them (I presently have one and a Forge World Vulture, which in the absence of errata can be reasonably assumed to have the same hull points as a Valkyrie).

[Tome]

Anyway, here's a shortlist;

>SNIP<

Saying this again, but thanks for the writing this stuff up Cheesegear. It's very helpful for list building.

[Forrestfire]

I'm actually trying to get back into 40k because of 6th edition, and with terminators apparently being more survivable, maybe my beloved deathwing is viable now?

What do people think of a deathwing army with allied tau? (I think that works...)

[Cheesegear]

maybe my beloved deathwing is viable now?

Maybe viable? Now!? Deathwing have been one of the top armies in the game ever since they get re-Errata'd about a year and a half ago.


What do people think of a deathwing army with allied tau? (I think that works...)

It depends entirely on your meta-game - the people you play against. Most of the Flyers in the game are some of the more expensive kits you can buy (I wonder why that is...:smallwink:) so it may be possible that you can get away with Deathwing and Tau if your meta doesn't have many Flyers in it.

If your meta does have Flyers in it, you're going to need to max out on Broadsides and Twin-Linking everything. And in that case you're better option would be Tau with Allied Deathwing, since you can get more Broadsides (Twin-Linked Railguns, that is) that way. If you can't do that, you're going to need some bodies and some Flyers of your own, which means Deathwing and Imperial Guard.

[Forrestfire]

I must have missed the errata. I stopped playing like 2 years ago >.>

In any case, my meta has zero fliers that I know of, most of us are guys who have armies just sitting around and are getting back in with 6th.

In any case, I'm probably going to see what I have and what I can get to figure out an army list. My area is fairly casual, so it shouldn't be too bad. From what I have, it looks like I'm going to have a few squads of terminators optimized for assault and battlesuits and a unit of fire warriors to add a bit more shooting power.

[Renegade Paladin]

Forge World has updated the rules for Apocalypse and their 40k vehicles. http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/News/Downloads.html

Also, we really should have gone with "Flyers are Forever." (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/New_Stuff/IMPERIAL_ARMOUR_AERONAUTICA.html) :smalltongue:

[LeSwordfish]

"Flyer's are a girl's best friend"?

Also, not to be annoying, but any comments/criticism/suggestions on the army i posted before/below would be really cool.

HQ
Coteaz 100
Probably 2 divination powers

Ordo Xenos Inquisitor Rourke 91
Rad Grenades, dude.
Combi Bolter-melta
Psyker- Force Sword, Probably Divination
Power Armour (Odds are he'll be diving into the fray to make use of the hammerhand and grenades)
Servo-skull

ELITES
Purifier squad -203
2 extra purifiers
2 Psycannons
5 Halberds
Knight gets Master-crafted weapons

Vindicare assassin-145

TROOPS
Henchman squad- 140
2 Jokaero
10 warriors
-Storm Bolters

Henchman squad- 140
2 Jokaero
10 warriors
-Storm Bolters

Henchman squad- 140
2 Jokaero
10 warriors
-Storm Bolters

Henchman squad- 125
3 Crusaders
9 Warriors
-3 Meltaguns
-6 Storm bolters

Henchman squad- 125
3 Crusaders
9 Warriors
-3 Meltaguns
-6 Storm bolters

ALLIES -IMPERIAL GUARD
Company Command Squad- 70
Lascannon


Veteran Squad- 90
Lascannon

Vendetta gunship- 130

[Renegade Paladin]

Your melta henchmen will die horribly since they don't have a ride and are basically Guard. I suppose the Crusaders will soak wounds (and do it better with the wound allocation change), but for meltas to be at their best, you want them to be up front, which creates massive problems with the new allocation rules.

That's about all I've got, since I don't play Grey Knights.

[evisiron]

"Flyer's are a girl's best friend"?

Also, not to be annoying, but any comments/criticism/suggestions on the army i posted before/below would be really cool.


I actually really like this list. It's got a nice strong theme to it. :smallbiggrin:

Tabletop wise, a few things to keep in mind:
1. The Assassin points might be better spent elsewhere, especially since picking out models isn't unique to him any more. points might be spent better elsehwere.
2. The vendetta, despite being a flyer, may suffer from "only AV available" syndrome and get shot at with literally every anti-tank weapon. By dropping it, the opponents points spent on anti tank are wasted.
3. The Purifiers will be slow, and get targeted with all of the AP3

You are will be very slow due to foot slogging.
Personally, I would consider taking Interceptors instead of Purifiers to help you reach things hiding out of sight. Marbo on the IG allies side could help with this too to a certain degree. Some of the spare points could be put into a Aegis defence line with Quad gun to help defend against Flyers and offer some much needed cover if you drop the Vendetta.
I would also worry about 2+ armour, but that isn't anything a little plasma won't fix. :smallsmile:

[Tome]

"Flyer's are a girl's best friend"?

Also, not to be annoying, but any comments/criticism/suggestions on the army i posted before/below would be really cool.

HQ
Coteaz 100
Probably 2 divination powers

Ordo Xenos Inquisitor Rourke 91
Rad Grenades, dude.
Combi Bolter-melta
Psyker- Force Sword, Probably Divination
Power Armour (Odds are he'll be diving into the fray to make use of the hammerhand and grenades)
Servo-skull

ELITES
Purifier squad -203
2 extra purifiers
2 Psycannons
5 Halberds
Knight gets Master-crafted weapons

Vindicare assassin-145

TROOPS
Henchman squad- 140
2 Jokaero
10 warriors
-Storm Bolters

Henchman squad- 140
2 Jokaero
10 warriors
-Storm Bolters

Henchman squad- 140
2 Jokaero
10 warriors
-Storm Bolters

Henchman squad- 125
3 Crusaders
9 Warriors
-3 Meltaguns
-6 Storm bolters

Henchman squad- 125
3 Crusaders
9 Warriors
-3 Meltaguns
-6 Storm bolters

ALLIES -IMPERIAL GUARD
Company Command Squad- 70
Lascannon


Veteran Squad- 90
Lascannon

Vendetta gunship- 130

Okay, first up is the Inquisitor. I know it's tempting to stick more melta in wherever you can, but this guy usually prefers having a pistol if he's being thrown into close combat. Take the combi-melta off him and use the points for something else. I'm assuming you intend for him to accompany the Purifiers?

Next is the melta-acolytes. Why are they footslogging? Those Crusaders are pretty durable for their points, sure, but they're not that durable. If you want melta-acolytes, stick them in a Chimera. Or you could just take actual melta-vets, since you have IG allies anyway and they're probably better at it.

Speaking of, your allies seem a bit off. You're kind of wasting your CCS and Veterans by using them to tote around a single Lascannon each. If you're taking them just so you can field the Vendetta, consider dropping the allied detachment entirely and fielding a Stormraven instead - it makes an excellent ride for you Purifiers and still functions reasonably well as a gunboat. Alternatively, you could both of them into meltagun units in chimeras to replace the melta-acolytes so that they're actually doing something worth their points.

You also might want some more durable troops, like a strike squad or even a small unit of termies. Possibly with an Incinerator so they can clear off objectives. All the ones you have currently are fairly fragile.

[Renegade Paladin]

The grand review of my army: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v350/RenegadePaladin/WH40K/S1070012.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v350/RenegadePaladin/WH40K/S1070004.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v350/RenegadePaladin/WH40K/S1070005.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v350/RenegadePaladin/WH40K/S1070006.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v350/RenegadePaladin/WH40K/S1070007.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v350/RenegadePaladin/WH40K/S1070008.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v350/RenegadePaladin/WH40K/S1070009.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v350/RenegadePaladin/WH40K/S1070010.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v350/RenegadePaladin/WH40K/S1070011.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v350/RenegadePaladin/WH40K/S1070015.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v350/RenegadePaladin/WH40K/S1070016.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v350/RenegadePaladin/WH40K/S1070017.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v350/RenegadePaladin/WH40K/S1070018.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v350/RenegadePaladin/WH40K/S1070019.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v350/RenegadePaladin/WH40K/S1070020.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v350/RenegadePaladin/WH40K/S1070021.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v350/RenegadePaladin/WH40K/S1070022.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v350/RenegadePaladin/WH40K/S1070023.jpg

This has been static at the current state of painting for months. I have the house to myself for the next week, which means I can spread my stuff out to work on. There will be after pictures. I'm posting up here mainly to motivate myself.

[bluntpencil]

Goddamnit.

I hate flyers.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/New_Stuff/IMPERIAL_ARMOUR_AERONAUTICA.html

[bluntpencil]

Crap, forum's still screwy. Half a dozen posts only visible on 'reply'. Didn't notice folks had already posted Aeronautica.

Did I mention I hate flyers?

[Squark]

Hm... What sort of build would you go for for a unit of Thunderwolf Cavalry?

I know the basic build in last edition (minus the meltabombs that were used for musical wounds) was;

2 Storm Shields
1 Power Fist
2 Vanilla

But do the changes in wound allocation mean more storm shields are needed?

Also, since there would be one leftover thunderwolf from the 2 boxes, I was just thinking of picking up a space Marine commander kit to make a Thunderwolf lord as well (If I decided to go with a unit of thunderwolves, that is).

A Possible Build
Thunderwolf Mount, Storm Shield, Thunder Hammer, Runic Armor, Wolf tail talisman, Saga of the Warrior Born- 265 points

[evisiron]

The grand review of my army:

That might be better off in the Modelling and Painting thread.

So, first big unsolvable question in our group is the Chariots in Combat Conundrum.
a) Can you attack the chariot itself or just the character riding in it?
b) If so, what happens if the chariot is destroyed? Is the character disengaged from combat and disembarks in the same way if people assaulting a transport manage to crack it, or does counting as being in Base to base make him consolidate into combat?

Anyone come across a solution to this?

[Cheesegear]

Hm... What sort of build would you go for for a unit of Thunderwolf Cavalry?
[...]
But do the changes in wound allocation mean more storm shields are needed?

Typically no. Most units wont be shooting more than 1 or 2 Heavy weapons at you, so, two SSs are fine. Remember with your 12" move and re-rolls to Charge, you should be in combat fairly quickly. You'd need to play-test it.


Would Allocation is still a thing. It's called 'Look Out, Sir!' and it's amazing. If you have an entire unit of Characters (Paladins, Wolf Guard, etc.) if your unit takes 8 wounds, roll 8 dice. If you succeed in all of them, 1 model will take 8 wounds. It's totally bananas. And here's the best part, he still gets to make saves.

[Wraith]

Would Allocation is still a thing. It's called 'Look Out, Sir!' and it's amazing. If you have an entire unit of Characters (Paladins, Wolf Guard, etc.) if your unit takes 8 wounds, roll 8 dice. If you succeed in all of them, 1 model will take 8 wounds. It's totally bananas. And here's the best part, he still gets to make saves.

I'm kind of understanding how you get this to work, but where are you getting Paladin being a unit of Characters?
Codex: Grey Knights just lists them as "Infantry" - as opposed to Infantry (Character) that you see along side, say, Draigo - so wouldn't Look Out, Sir! only apply if a wound were allocated to the Apothecary?

Same question re: Wolf Guard, as Space Wolves specifically mentions that only the Battle Leader counts as a Character, and the rest are just infantry?

It'd definitely work if you took, say, 4 Rune Priests and made them into one super-squad, but I think I'm missing something from the other examples..... :smallconfused:

[Penguinizer]

I'm kind of understanding how you get this to work, but where are you getting Paladin being a unit of Characters?
Codex: Grey Knights just lists them as "Infantry" - as opposed to Infantry (Character) that you see along side, say, Draigo - so wouldn't Look Out, Sir! only apply if a wound were allocated to the Apothecary?

Same question re: Wolf Guard, as Space Wolves specifically mentions that only the Battle Leader counts as a Character, and the rest are just infantry?

It'd definitely work if you took, say, 4 Rune Priests and made them into one super-squad, but I think I'm missing something from the other examples..... :smallconfused:

In the back of the new WH40k rulebook, Wolf Guard and Paladins are listend as In Ch. Since the rulebook unit type takes priority over the codex because of the edition change it takes priority.

[Cheesegear]

I'm kind of understanding how you get this to work, but where are you getting Paladin being a unit of Characters?

Back of the rulebook.
Since you're Eldar. Warlocks are characters. And thus Seer Councils are entire units of Characters.

Here's the list of full-Character units;

Paladins
Wolf Guard
Chaos Terminators (if you upgrade them all, or just most of them should be enough)
Seer Councils
Necron Royal Courts
Nobs - but not Meganobz (don't ask me, it's the rules)

Precision Shots and Strikes for everyone!

[Issabella]

I have to check the FAQ, but I think, oddly, that Wolfguard are Characters when split into their "sergent" role, but when fielded as a unit, they are not, despite being listed as characters in the book. I wish I could access the FAQ but GW is a blocked site here at work...while GitP is not odly.

[Cheesegear]

I have to check the FAQ, but I think, oddly, that Wolfguard are Characters when split into their "sergent" role, but when fielded as a unit, they are not, despite being listed as characters in the book.

No. Read carefully.

Wolf Guard are Characters as per the Rulebook.
The FAQ states that "they become Characters in addition to their normal type."
Their normal type is Character.

[Sam cw]

Would Allocation is still a thing. It's called 'Look Out, Sir!' and it's amazing. If you have an entire unit of Characters (Paladins, Wolf Guard, etc.) if your unit takes 8 wounds, roll 8 dice. If you succeed in all of them, 1 model will take 8 wounds. It's totally bananas. And here's the best part, he still gets to make saves.

Uhh... Are you sure about that? The way I read it, you deflect unsaved Wounds, not Wounds that you still have to roll for. Reading over LO,S, it says "When a Wound (or unsaved Wound) is allocated", so I guess it depends on weather the parenthesis is a clarification or extra option.

As an aside, you can add Crisis suit teams with lots of shield drones to the list. Character is now a unit type and all drones have the same unit types as their owner.:smallamused:

[Cheesegear]

The way I read it, you deflect unsaved Wounds, not Wounds that you still have to roll for. Reading over LO,S, it says "When a Wound (or unsaved Wound) is allocated" so I guess it depends on weather the parenthesis is a clarification or extra option..

Both. Since sometimes you don't get a save, and sometimes you do.

You allocate Wounds before you roll for saves. So Look Out, Sir! happens before saves.


As an aside, you can add Crisis suit teams with lots of shield drones to the list. Character is now a unit type and all drones have the same unit types as their owner.:smallamused:

Why would you want to transfer wounds from Drones to your actual Suits? Sounds like a terrible idea.
Also, only two Drones will be Characters, as there's only one Character in a Crisis Team.

[Sam cw]

Both. Since sometimes you don't get a save, and sometimes you do.

You allocate Wounds before you roll for saves. So Look Out, Sir! happens before saves.

So its basically 5th ed on a 4+ then?


Why would you want to transfer wounds from Drones to your actual Suits? Sounds like a terrible idea.

Since the suits have 2 wounds, you can use them to stop your opponent from striping the shield drones with small arms before finishing the suits with ID weapons.


Also, only two Drones will be Characters, as there's only one Character in a Crisis Team.

True, I've gotten so used to all of my crisis teams having an attached commander (low point games plus small number of suit models that sometimes have to pull double duty as broadsides means I usually only have one squad) that I forgot to specify. My normal setup is a 2 man team with a team leader and 2 drones joined by my commander who also has 2 drones, making a seven model squad with six characters, which is what I was think of.

[SynissterSyster]

Okay all. I got my DE codex and am happy. Coming Sunday during the day I am heading to my shop to talk to the owner. Since Sunday is Warhammer day at the shop I can pick brains of those there. From what I have read on one other forum it seems that best bets are warriors for main troops, Hellions for FA and maybe some Reavers, with Voidravens for HS and bombing stuff. HQs are up in air but Drazhar seems to be a solid choice atm. I will go over this with owner tomorrow though any advice from you all is much welcomed.

[Cheesegear]

From what I have read on one other forum it seems that best bets are warriors for main troops, Hellions for FA and maybe some Reavers, with Voidravens for HS and bombing stuff. HQs are up in air but Drazhar seems to be a solid choice atm.

Warriors are not good. They're made out of paper. It's highly likely whatever you've read was for 5th Ed. Warriors are 'good' insofar as they're only better than your other choices.

Hellions are good with the Baron. And only with the Baron. Otherwise you should be looking at Beastmasters and maxing that out since 'closest first' wound allocation highly supports mixed units like that.

Razorwings are the best Flyer Dark Eldar have.

Drazhar is fairly weak. Your best guy is a basic Archon with a Shadow Field.
EDIT; Rakarth is also good because he makes one of the new killiest units in the game as of 6th Ed. more killy.


I hate to break it to, but, of everyone, Dark Eldar have been hit the hardest by the edition change. Orks went from bad to worse. But DE went from one of the best armies in the game to slightly playable.

[SynissterSyster]

Cheese, I am very sure what I read was for 6th edition. The posts were given by someone whom played several games. Now I am not going to disagree that DE were hit hard but saying they are slightly playable makes it seem like they shouldn't be given a chance. Now I know this sounds biased as I am getting into the game and I don't want to spend another $30+ at the moment for a new codex. I am going to not throw in the towel just yet.

[Cheesegear]

Now I am not going to disagree that DE were hit hard but saying they are slightly playable makes it seem like they shouldn't be given a chance.

Oh, of course. By all means. But if you're searching for Dark Eldar tips, there's a number of places that will be saying that Dark Eldar are one of the most amazing armies in the game. I'm just trying to point out that that's not quite the case anymore.

[lord_khaine]

Paladins
Wolf Guard
Chaos Terminators (if you upgrade them all, or just most of them should be enough)
Seer Councils
Necron Royal Courts
Nobs - but not Meganobz (don't ask me, it's the rules)

Hmm, this might make Necron Royal Courts a viable pick again, combined with lower cover safes making their AP3 staffs better, and flying transports to get them into shooting range of viable targets.

[Issabella]

Given the Necrons returned status of vehicle killers, the haywire staff seems almost redundent, but freaking Haywire(4), assault weapons...jeez that just hurts.

[Wraith]

Back of the rulebook.

Ah yes, the one place I didn't look. You'd think they would mention something about it under the rules for Characters or Look Our, Sir! rather than hide it away in a little table on page 412. Thank you :smallsmile:


Since you're Eldar. Warlocks are characters. And thus Seer Councils are entire units of Characters.

I haven't yet made up my mind whether this is a great overall improvement or not.
s9 is distinctly better than s3+Armourbane. Similarly, Precise Shot isn't of particularly big help to a guy with a Shuriken Pistol and is of no use at all for Destructor.

Look Out, Sir! shenanigans aside (I know there's a difference between RaW and RaI, and I'm fairly sure one guy jumping in front of 8 wounds at the same time isn't part of the latter :smalltongue: ) 6th Ed. essentially just gives Precise Strike to a 25pts-plus-Powers-each, A=1 model. It's.... less than I was hoping for, I'll be honest with you! :smallbiggrin:

Swooping Hawks are still awful, though, if ever we need something reassuringly consistent from book to book. :smallwink:

[lord_khaine]

Swooping Hawks are still awful, though, if ever we need something reassuringly consistent from book to book.

Yeah, i was hoping that the buff to Haywire grenades, and their intercept ability would have made them a viable counter to flyers, and worth picking up for the first time since second edition (where it really were just the exarch you wanted).


Given the Necrons returned status of vehicle killers, the haywire staff seems almost redundent, but freaking Haywire(4), assault weapons...jeez that just hurts.

Yeah, the staff has a really short range though, but it might be worth placing in a unit of Tesla immortals.

Also, if Zandreck gives a unit of Immortals tank hunter, then their tesla weapons should have a decent chance of glancing most flyers down, this might be one of the better ways for Necrons to handle flyers, unless you can slice them in half with a Death ray?

[Provengreil]

gah, rulebook's taking a long time. can someone explain to me how "ook out, sir" works, exactly? because if paladins and wolf guard packs can load all the wounds they take onto one model, doesn't that make them absurdly hard to kill?

[The_Final_Stand]

If a wound is allocated to a Character in a unit for whatever reason (was at the front of the unit, sniped by snipers, precision strikes in close combat and what have you) then another model in the unit can go "Look Out, Sir!" and takes the wound himself on a 4+. Independent Characters get a 2+.

The trouble arises when you have an entire unit of characters, such as Paladins, Wolf Guard, etc. You can be shot 8 times, but since the target is a character, they are entitled to Look Out Sir on a 4+, allowing you to move all 8 wounds onto a single model.

On the other hand, this strategy is dependent on making 8 4+ rolls, so on average, half of them will still hit the intended target.

[Cheesegear]

gah, rulebook's taking a long time. can someone explain to me how "ook out, sir" works, exactly? because if paladins and wolf guard packs can load all the wounds they take onto one model, doesn't that make them absurdly hard to kill?

Yes and no. Sure, one model will be forced to make so many saves. But that only works 50% of the time. It's better than actually dealing 8 unsaved wounds to your opponent and have him remove no models, as you used to do in 5th as each model had to be allocated a wound.

So, on the one hand you deal more wounds to fewer models. On the other hand, you actually get to remove models and decrease the effectiveness of the unit where you weren't able to before - in the case of multi-wounds, that is.

[Erloas]

No. Read carefully.

Wolf Guard are Characters as per the Rulebook.
The FAQ states that "they become Characters in addition to their normal type."
Their normal type is Character.
I'm pretty sure this will change in the errata later. The intention seems to be when they are taken as commanders of other units they get LO,S, but not when they make up an entire unit by themselves. The erratas, if it runs anything like Fantasy did, will go through a lot of revisions in the first couple months.


Cheese, I am very sure what I read was for 6th edition. The posts were given by someone whom played several games. Now I am not going to disagree that DE were hit hard but saying they are slightly playable makes it seem like they shouldn't be given a chance. Now I know this sounds biased as I am getting into the game and I don't want to spend another $30+ at the moment for a new codex. I am going to not throw in the towel just yet.
Well one thing to keep in mind is that Cheese often talks in extremes, everything is almost always super amazing or absolutely worthless from what he says. At least on first pass, but as it gets discussed more what he real means is in general its better/not as good as other options, not that said army/unit doesn't have situations where it does well. And of course the people you are playing have a big influence on what works and how well it works.
At at least last edition Tau and Orks did a lot better locally then what "the internet" says they can do and I have yet to see a guard list laying waste to everything and being almost unbeatable as some claim. And the Eldar list I run is completely against all the advice I've ever seen online for Eldar but that hasn't stopped me from winning with it very consistently and often pretty much wiping my opponents every game.

[Zorg]

HERO's Gameblog has some good articles up at the moment (http://lkhero.blogspot.com.au/) for getting the most out of Dark Eldar in 6th.

And I second Erloas' advice on not listening to the internet too much - there's just so much local variance that while someone could claim X is true, and it be true for them it could be a complete fabrication for me.
For example in 5th 'mech was king' so load up on meltaguns and be prepared to fight walls of vehicles... in my area most people were surprised to see fully mechanised lists, defying what everyone on the internet put forth.

[Renegade Paladin]

For example in 5th 'mech was king' so load up on meltaguns and be prepared to fight walls of vehicles... in my area most people were surprised to see fully mechanised lists, defying what everyone on the internet put forth.
My area was surprised to see them too when I first started, largely because of sticker shock. Then I proceeded to dominate the metagame until people did load up on meltaguns and lascannons, at which point I fell back to about a 50% win rate. Mech is beatable if you're prepared for it. If you're not, it isn't.

[Tome]

Also, if Zandreck gives a unit of Immortals tank hunter, then their tesla weapons should have a decent chance of glancing most flyers down, this might be one of the better ways for Necrons to handle flyers, unless you can slice them in half with a Death ray?

Necrons don't have problems with fliers, thanks to having their own. All fliers can by Skyfire whenever they want, and I believe that both Necron fliers have effective anti-tank weapons on them.

[LeSwordfish]

Thanks for the advice! I'll stick with what i've got just now, but will swap the Vindicare for a trio of Rhinos or a pair of Chimeras later on, once i've bought them, and maybe trade in one of the melta-squads for some more guardsmen?

I accept that Stormravens are probably useful, but I have this horrible bias against them: they look like thrown bricks, and cost as much as a Vendetta and a guardsmen/Henchmen squad to crew it.

Some more knights and Vendettas is my current thinking for the next expansion.

Also: Deep strike/scout the Vendetta, and hope I can kill the worst of the anti-tank off before it arrives: Bad Idea, or merely Poor Idea?

[The_Final_Stand]

Something I've been considering. Hover allows a Flyer to move like a Fast Skimmer. However, since it isn't Zooming, does this mean that it can be shot at with full ballistic skill, even without Skyfire?

That said, Skimmers automatically get Jink if they move, so the Flyer can fire to its hearts content if it moves up to 6" and still be irritating to shoot down.

EDIT: It specifies Zooming Flyers cannot be assaulted. Therefore, presumably Hovering Flyers can be assaulted.

[Tome]

Also: Deep strike/scout the Vendetta, and hope I can kill the worst of the anti-tank off before it arrives: Bad Idea, or merely Poor Idea?

Mandatory idea.

All Flyers must start in reserve. So no Scout move, but you have your choice of Deep Strike, Outflank or normal reserves.

I wouldn't worry too much about most anti-tank. All you need to worry about are fortifications and other Flyers (and Hydras, but they're kind of terrible now).

[Cheesegear]

My area was surprised to see them too when I first started, largely because of sticker shock. Then I proceeded to dominate the metagame until people did load up on meltaguns and lascannons, at which point I fell back to about a 50% win rate. Mech is beatable if you're prepared for it. If you're not, it isn't.

This is identical to my experience as well. I tried my 'fun' Scout and Bike Lists during 5th, and they didn't work once my opponents started going to Mech. The Bike List was okay, but it just wasn't good enough. Then I bit the bullet myself and invested in Plaserbacks.


Something I've been considering. Hover allows a Flyer to move like a Fast Skimmer. However, since it isn't Zooming, does this mean that it can be shot at with full ballistic skill, even without Skyfire?

It specifies Zooming Flyers cannot be assaulted. Therefore, presumably Hovering Flyers can be assaulted.

Yes and yes.

[TooManySecrets]

I'm thinking of running a Nurgle Chaos Space Marines with allied Nurgle Chaos Daemons army. What sort of effective anti-vehicle options do Chaos Space Marines have in the current meta?

[gabado]

list idea for the new edition, this is a 3000pt list, but i can easily scale it up or down depending on the size of the games:

HQ:
Dante: 225pt

sanguinor exemplar of the host: 275pt

Elites:
3 sanguinary priests: 270pt
power swords
jump packs

sanguinary priest: 90pt
power sword
jump pack
sanguinary priests accompany SG squads

chaplain: 130pt
jump pack
melta bombs
attached to death company

Troops:
sanguinary guard: 275pt
death masks
infernus pistol
power fist
chapter banner
squad accompanies dante and deep strikes

sanguinary guard: 245pt
death masks
infernus pistol
power fist

sanguinary guard: 245pt
death masks
infernus pistol
power fist

sanguinary guard: 245pt
death masks
infernus pistol
power fist
remaining three squads embark in the storm ravens and outflank

death company: 370pt
7 marines
jump packs
4 power swords
infernus pistol
2 power fists

Heavy support:
storm raven: 230pt
multimelta
tl plasma cannons
hurricane bolter

storm raven: 200pt
multimelta
tl plasma cannons

storm raven: 200pt
multimelta
tl plasma cannons

total: 3000pt

i haven't yet seen SG in action yet in the new rules, so i have no idea how this list will run, any input is welcome :smallsmile:

[Cheesegear]

A series of unfortunate nerfs; A Dark Eldar Tale.

So, in 5th, a most glorious Codex was published. Good fluff. Fantastic rules. And some of the best models I've ever seen. This Codex was Dark Eldar, and it was amazing. I bought half a dozen Venoms, a few Raiders, and a trio of Ravagers. I took this army to tournaments. It was a blast! This was no stand-and-shoot Space Marine Parking Lot. This wasn't a war-of-attrition-wait-'til-they-run-out-of-bullets match playing with Imperial Guard. I moved practically every unit, every turn. And sometimes I even Assaulted. Something which I, a recent Parking Lot Space Marines player never did, at least, not if I didn't absolutely have to.

And then 6th came. And my tournament-placing Dark Eldar army, the army that won me two Razorwings, my favourite army that I've ever played, sits in it's case. Waiting...Waiting...

Well, what happened?

The vehicles are made out of paper. Glancing Hits actually matter now. And Venoms have a total of 2 Hull Points. Venoms used to be able to laugh off Bolter rounds since 'Glancing Hits don't count', now, they can't shrug off Glancing Hits anymore since two of them and your Venom goes down in smoke. Welcome to Bolter fire.
Dark Eldar used to be a unique and special snow flake. Flickerfields were the bomb. Now, everyone has 5+ Jink. While this isn't a nerf, per se, it means that Dark Eldar aren't better than everybody else, it's means they're the same. As in, no advantage to being Dark Eldar. So Venoms are even more pointless. Since Raiders get Flickerfields too, what's the point in Venoms now? Lots of Shuriken Cannons? Really?

So, Venom spam no longer works. Staple of the Dark Eldar competitive lists.

Transport nerf. Vehicles can only go 6" if you want to disembark. Fast? Doesn't matter. Open-Topped? Doesn't matter. Your vehicles are slower if you actually want to get out - like Assaulting. For like, Wyches.

Run nerf. You can't Charge if you Run. Period. The best roll for Combat Drugs now does nothing. Well, it lets you get closer to your enemy so they can get into Rapid Fire range easier, or Charge you easier. Poor Wyches. With Fleet, you should be Charging ~9". Under 5th, you could usually Charge 11".

5th Ed. Vehicle 12", jump 2", Fleet 5+", Assault 6" = 25" Just enough for a first turn Assault with your entire army. If you're unlucky you should Fleet 4. Which is 24" which is perfect if both you and your opponent are pushing Deployments.

6th Ed. Vehicle 6", jump 6", Fleet-Charge 9" = 21". Or, 3" away from your opponent on the first turn. I suppose if you can't charge you'd be running which could get you 12", or 2" away from your opponent. Either way; Welcome to Rapid Fire city. Population none. Because everybody died.

Overwatch. You want to Charge anything with Boltguns? Be my guest. If they have the capacity to shoot at full BS, you're ruined.

So, between Transport Nerf, Fleet/Run Nerf, and Overwatch. Wyches no longer work. A staple of the Dark Eldar competitive lists. Wyches can still ruin vehicles though - but they could do that before, and in the first turn.

Razorwings. Are. Flyers. That's your explanation.
Ravagers no longer work. A staple of the Dark Eldar competitive lists.

The biggest nerf though? The biggest? You can't Assault from Reserve. Webway Portals are borderline junk now.


So, Dark Eldar used to be Venoms, a whole lot of Trueborn and/or Warriors, a few units of Wyches and some Ravagers. And it was excellent. Due to a series of nerfs, most of that entire army is now worthless. Money well spent.

Between 5th=>6th, most armies didn't have to buy more than a box or two. Not including Flyers. Because nobody foresaw the stupidity of "Nothing can kill Flyers except Flyers.", in retrospect it makes absolute sense that that's the way it would be, but nobody saw it coming. Point is, a lot of people were bitching and moaning that 6th would make their army unplayable, pretty much everyone was proven wrong...Except Dark Eldar players.

Dark Eldar practically have to rejig their entire army, and that's just to compete on the same level as everybody else (Flickerfields for everyone!!!). Not to be 'amazing', but just so that they don't get immediately ruined in the first two turns. I hope you brought your Haemonculi to get FNP ASAP. You're going to need it.


So. Yeah. If you're starting Dark Eldar brand new for 6th, you'll be fine.
But if you're old, and transposing your army from 5th to 6th, you'll be pissed, because nothing you own (except Trueborn/Warriors) works anymore.

[Voidhawk]

Cheesegear, I think you may be a little mixed up about the vehicle disembarkation rules.

When you jump out, you place a each model in turn (generally with a 1" base) next to an access point and then make a normal move (generally 6"). This occurs whether or not the vehicle has moved that turn, differently to the 5th edition 2" disembark. It doesn't sound like much, but it means the 6th ed calculations become:

Vehicle 6", Model base 1", Move 6", Fleet-Charge 9" = 22" a nerf of only 3" on the previous edition, not the 8" you calculate. And that's not including the old "Deploy Raiders sideways and then turn them 90 degrees" trick that gains another 2" or so.

As an aside, I have never seen a Dark Eldar 1st turn assault actually occur. Everyone I know feared them enough to always deploy 2" or more behind their deployment zone, so it just didn't happen. This isn't as much as a nerf as you seem to think.

Everything else you said I agree with though. They got smacked hard, just not (in my opinion) anywhere near fatally. It's just looking like there are going to be more Razorwings, Voidravens, and Raiders in the meta rather than Ravagers and Venoms.

[Cheesegear]

Cheesegear, I think you may be a little mixed up about the vehicle disembarkation rules.

Vehicle 6", Model base 1", Move 6", Fleet-Charge 9" = 22" a nerf of only 3" on the previous edition, not the 8" you calculate.

Slightly off. Since I did check after you brought up that I was wrong, and I always double check to either admit my mistake or repeat myself.

You can move 1" away from the vehicle, and then move normally, but you can't move more than 6" away from the exit point. Essentially Disembarkation Move = 1+5". Not 1" then 6".

Vehicle 6", Move 1+5", Fleet-Charge 9" = 21". So, still worse.

But, factor in the rest of the game. The fact that Raiders/Venoms could move 12", meant that you were less reliant on getting your random Fleet roll off in the long run in the later turns, or maybe you wanted to shoot and then Assault because you could.

Vehicles move 6", means that now you're more reliant on random rolls. And relying on random rolls is bad.

...And that's not even counting Wyches coming out of Webway Portals. :smallsigh:


As an aside, I have never seen a Dark Eldar 1st turn assault actually occur.

I, personally have done it a number of times. It requires that you roll a '1' for your Combat Drugs (I used the Duke, and he's not needed anymore in 6th), and you need to go first.


This isn't as much as a nerf as you seem to think.

Not for most people, no. But for anyone who ever did try the First Turn Assault, fact is, you can't do it anymore at all.


They got smacked hard, just not (in my opinion) anywhere near fatally.

Oh, that wasn't the point of the story. Right down the bottom at the end is the point. What worked in 5th for DE, doesn't work anymore. And DE have to change their entire armies. They still have one or two workable builds, but they're not the same as the workable builds before, and that makes people mad because they need to spend more money, or they just case/quit their Dark Eldar. The workable builds for most other armies is take what you had before, add Flyers.

[bluntpencil]

list idea for the new edition, this is a 3000pt list, but i can easily scale it up or down depending on the size of the games:

HQ:
Dante: 225pt

sanguinor exemplar of the host: 275pt

Elites:
3 sanguinary priests: 270pt
power swords
jump packs

sanguinary priest: 90pt
power sword
jump pack
sanguinary priests accompany SG squads

chaplain: 130pt
jump pack
melta bombs
attached to death company

Troops:
sanguinary guard: 275pt
death masks
infernus pistol
power fist
chapter banner
squad accompanies dante and deep strikes

sanguinary guard: 245pt
death masks
infernus pistol
power fist

sanguinary guard: 245pt
death masks
infernus pistol
power fist

sanguinary guard: 245pt
death masks
infernus pistol
power fist
remaining three squads embark in the storm ravens and outflank

death company: 370pt
7 marines
jump packs
4 power swords
infernus pistol
2 power fists

Heavy support:
storm raven: 230pt
multimelta
tl plasma cannons
hurricane bolter

storm raven: 200pt
multimelta
tl plasma cannons

storm raven: 200pt
multimelta
tl plasma cannons

total: 3000pt

i haven't yet seen SG in action yet in the new rules, so i have no idea how this list will run, any input is welcome :smallsmile:

Death Masks are a waste of points, really. They kind of suck, since most enemies have high Ld, and Dante gives the unit he joins a free Death Mask.

I'd probably remove the Death Company too, in favour of maybe Terminators or something, just so you have a Sergeant in your army. If you have a Sergeant, they get the Sanguinor's blessing bonus. If there's only one sergeant, you know who's getting it. If the only Sergeant is packing Terminator Armour, carrying a Storm Shield and Thunder Hammer, and has a Priest backing him up, you basically got yourself a cheap Captain there, who just won't die.

Also, where's the Librarians?

Also, is it just me, or is Corbulo not amazing now?! 2+ Feel No Pain?

I feel sad that the Blood Angels themselves are not aware of the rules of the universe they exist in. If they were aware of them, they'd give let Corbulo wear Artificer or Terminator Armour, and give Dante a sword instead of an axe, since he has such a high initiative.

Interestingly, though, Dante's rules state that the Axe Mortalis is a MC Power Weapon, not axe. So, if you converted him to have a sword, not an Axe, the Axe Mortalis would be a MC Power Sword. I guess that's cool for successor Chapters using Dante as their Chapter Master.

[Hootman]

Today is a special day. Today, I give you a gift:


Hootman’s Likely Misguided Thoughts on Orks
OR
Orks VS 6th Edition: Still Needs Moar Dakka


WARNING: This is quite long. I have included a TL;DR section below for those of you without the time or inclination to read everything I wrote.

Having finally read the majority of the new rulebook, I have come to two major decisions.
1. I think, overall, GW did a good job with the new rules. They look good on paper, and I should be able to take them for a test drive this weekend.
2. There are several rules that make me wish I could froth on command in order to properly display my distaste for GW’s design choices. These should become clear later.

I DO feel that Orks benefit a lot from the new rules, and may even be able to put out at least one very competitive build even without Allies. However, the codex is from 4th Edition, and it definitely shows it between the lack of flexibility in “good” unit choices and poor ranged anti-tank options. Enough of my general ramblings, and on to more specific ones!

Codex-Wide Issues
WAAAGH!: Once per game, any Orks not on bikes become Fleet. This can be amazing with the new Fleet rules, and is probably the only way you can reliably get into Assault now that the boyz are removed from the front of the mob when killed instead of the back.

Mob Rule: All ork-only units can use their model-count as their Leadership, and are Fearless when they have 11+ models. Fearless is sadly not as useful as it seems, because Fearless now has two big weaknesses: you cannot go to ground, and you cannot choose to fail morale due to Our Weapons Are Useless. Man, I love getting tarpitted by a Dreadnought after my PK Nob has been sniped due to Precise Shots--better not botch my Look Out, Sir's. On the other hand, if you're down to your last few models and you WANT to fail, you may actually use Mob Rule to LOWER your Leadership and pray you escape combat unscathed. Nobz Mobz of any sort have a model-limit of 10, so they're almost always relying on their own (unimpressive) Leadership and a Bosspole to keep themselves in line, which kind of sucks.

Furious Charge: When you charge, gain +1 Strength. You no longer gain the +1 Initiative that was (for Boyz) only useful against Necrons and Tau, or (for Nobz) able to put your non-PK models up to the ever-popular I4, which is pretty lame. Since I never bought Stikkbombs, though, anyone who wasn't hanging with the Warboss was frequently I1 anyways due to charging through Terrain. Slight nerf, mostly to Nobz. All Orks continue to loath any combat that isn't decided the moment the boyz charge in, because their Strength drops once your turn ends.

Powerklaws: The ever-faithful S8+, I1, Orky 'kan opener'. Still your only option for anti-armor in melee. GW didn't even give Big Choppas an AP value, let alone regular Choppas, so if you want to bring down anything with an armor save, you'd better warm up your Look Out, Sir! dice. Any foe with half a brain will be gunning for your PK Nobs with every shot they can, and you barely have an armor save. I suspect this will be a theme...


HQ’s
Warboss: An S10 Powerklaw, with 5 or 6 attacks on the charge, is still one of the deadliest things in the game. If you put him on a Bike he becomes T6, which is great for leading the charge if you stick him to a unit of Nob Bikerz with a Painboy. He'll probably eat a lot of anti-tank fire if you don't have a half-dozen Battlewagons, so that Feel No Pain will be a Gork-send (Or possibly Mork-send). I'm still a little upset that (unlike Marines) Biker Bosses can't have Biker Troops, and Wazdakka still doesn't have an Invul or S5. FUN FACT: Until they edit the FAQ, Warbosses and Nobz on Bikes retain the WAAAGH! rule, and thus are Fleet for that one turn where you NEED to reach assault. Bikes have Hammer of Wrath (unmodified Strength, but still really good). I wonder what happens if you pop a Rhino with Hammer of Wrath attacks. Do you get to Pile-In into combat with the contents at your initiative? How do the contents feel about eating 5-15 Powerklaw attacks? :smallamused:

Big Mek: Kustom Force Fields are still good for Green Tides, but they've lost about 17% of their luster in Kan Wall and Battlewagon Blitz lists. The Shokk Attack gun remains hilariously unreliable, but as an AP2 Large Blast (Ordinance too), it's your only option if you want to kill 2+ Armor at range aside from Drown It In Bullets. Ordinance rules are buffed by the removal of "half-Strength if the hole's off the hull" rule, but with randomly rolled Strength, you're generally better shooting at Infantry anyways. The lack of Bike + Shokk Attack Gun = Relentless still upsets me, but is nothing new.

Weirdboy: Mastery Level 1, random power every turn, no access to the shiny new Psychic Powers, and still no gear upgrades. The 5+ Deny The Witch roll for one unit is not worth it by any stretch. Despite the Ork psychic powers being pretty awesome, the randomness is dangerous at best, and the lack of defensive wargear means you get sniped pretty easily. Take...anything else.

ELITES
Nobz: Forever the workhorses of the Ork army, and one unit per Warboss can be treated as Troops. Biker Nobz are amazing again: Proper T5, W2, 4+ Armor AND moving 4+ Cover AND 5+ Feel No Pain if you buy the Painboy (ALWAYS BUY THE PAINBOY), and SCORING if you have a Warboss. In the old days, you played Musical Wounds to maximize them, but with that rule out, you just spend less points on the unit and still get Look Out, Sir! shenanigans because it's a unit of characters. Waaagh! Banners are amazing, especially with a Warboss in the unit, because he benefits too. Trukks aren't too bad for Nobz despite the nerf, but more often you'll want to take a Battlewagon if you're not taking Bikes.

Meganobz: Why these could not have been made part of the Nob entry, we will never know (and never stop complaining about). Essentially no wargear options, but at least you have 2+ Armor. Slow & Purposeful means no Running and no Overwatch, but is otherwise better than it used to be. These guys NEED a transport to get to the front lines ASAP--pretty much the only unit I heartily recommend Trukks for. Powerklaws remain great, TL Shootas still aren't important in small quantities, and their Stikkbombs make me mad (they're permanently I1 in combat due to PK's). T4 hurts them when the Lascannons and Carnifi come out to play, because they still don't have an Invul. Ideally, plow them into something that only has AP3 or worse and giggle while your opponent can do nothing about it.

Burna Boyz: Current holder of the Least Likely To Get Assaulted Award for units that aren't Purifiers, Burnas are holding Flamers when they want to shoot and Power Weapons when they don't. No FAQ on whether the Burna is a specific type of Power Weapon, or if using it for Overwatch means it cannot be used as a Power Weapon for that Assault phase (a perfectly logical decision I rather hope they do not come to). I see no reason why you shouldn't abuse the fact that it is an Unspecified Power Weapon in order to call it a Power Lance; S5 AP3 on the (furious) charge is pretty hard to argue with, and if you get charged, you're already dead, so the S3 AP4 is much less of a let down. However, if they ever get FAQ'd, I'll bet they'll be classified as Swords, because GW doesn't like Orks being good anymore (or so it seems from my incredibly biased viewpoint). I can dream, though. You can trade out up to three Burnas for Mekboyz--I would suggest maybe 1-per-5 Burnas purchased should be a Mek to keep your transport running as long as possible. Apparently Mekboys are Characters, so you can also use them to snipe enemy 2+ armor when you occasionally hit with the Kustom Mega Blasta (which, despite the wider Internet's claim to the contrary, is NOT a Blast weapon). Lack of a Dedicated Transport is painful, but if you buy these champs a Battlewagon, those Meks you traded for should keep it going strong.

Tankbustas: These bad boyz used to be completely unusable due to Glory Hogs, but the new FAQ has changed it all to MAKE SENSE, of all things. Way to go, GW. Every boy has an S8 AP3 Rokkit and Tankbusta Bombs (6+2d6), which are specifically counted as a type of Krak Grenade, so they can be used in combat with Walkers and MC's (the 2d6 obviously not helping vs Monsters). You can trade a Rokkit for a Tankhammer, because always being S10 in close combat is hilarious, and then just pick up some Bomb Squigs so the Hammerboy can still "shoot". It's unclear whether or not the Nob can take the Tankhammer, but his PK is discounted anyways, so you want that instead. No Dedicated Transport, again, which really hinders their initial push into the middle of the field, but otherwise isn't hugely important. Math suggests that you want at least 6 or 7 Rokkits firing in order to have a good chance of busting up light vehicles. Land Raiders and Monoliths still require liberal application PK's, Tankhammers, and Tankbusta Bombs.

Lootas: The only Elite unit aside from Nob Bikerz that I can say was genuinely buffed, Lootas are heavy weapons specialists that fire anywhere from 1 to 3 shots per turn, each. Throwing out a max of 45 S7 shots should make anyone adjust their target priority, which is ok because Lootas can finally fire while on the move. Sure, they're Snap Shots at BS1, but when you're normally BS2, that's hardly a significant downgrade. This fact also makes using them to shoot down Fliers a no-brainer; if you're going to be BS1 on the move anyways, might as well aim for the highest-prioity targets you can find with your 10 million-billion bullets. No Dedicated Transport, but that's not new. Not as much call for upgrading to Meks, but if you want to load up a 12+ Squad in a Battlewagon and go to town, you should probably include 1 or 2. Lootas are still your best anti-transport (and now anti-flier) unit for their price.

Kommandos: Orky scouts. With the new rule that Reserves can't charge on the turn they enter the battlefield, Kommandos are pretty much useless. They're main purpose was to sneak PK's and burnas into your opponent's backfield, and while the burnas are still slightly useful, the No Assault rule means these boyz will never survive to attack anything. They CAN still Infiltrate, so they're not useless...just Use Impaired. Lootas, Burnas, and Nobz are all better.


TROOPS
Boyz: Two delicious flavors, Shooty and Choppy. Shoota Boyz were and still are the better choice; 18" Assault 2 guns are great even with BS2, because you've got at least 20 of them. Big Shootas just don't seem strong enough to be worth not converting into Lootas, but Rokkits allow you a fair shot at damaging transports while you're slogging up the field trying to get at the tasty troopers inside. If the general meta actually shifts away from Transports entirely (HA!), or your meta has almost no vehicles AV12 or lower, just take the Big Shootas. Always buy a Nob with PK and Bosspole. 'Ard Boyz (Boyz with a 4+ Save) used to be a joke, and very likely still are, because they're costly. 'Ard Nobz, on the other hand, are now pretty good because they can get sniped if you blow a Look Out, Sir!, and it's nice to have a viable armor save instead of none. Boyz are generally supposed to remain as cheap and plentiful as possible. Trukks are crap now, but a load of Shootaboyz in a Battlewagon aren't bad. I usually just slog'em, and they do fine if I keep them in cover or in a Kustom Force Field bubble.

Grots: The weediest of the weedy, grots are incredibly efficient at only twos things: giving boyz a cover save when there's no KFF, and going to ground next to your objective. And now with the nerf to cover, they're not quite as good at either. Still, they're very cheap (20 wounds with at least 4+ Gone-To-Ground-In-Cover for only 67 points!), so they're probably good enough. I'm a fan.

Trukks: 10/10/10, Open-Topped and Fast. Holds up to 12 boyz. The Dedicated Transport of the Ork Codex, like the Rhino only flimsier and not available to every unit and it's God-Emperor. Oh well. It used to be great, being all super-fast and open-topped, but now it's mostly a joke. A joke that frequently explodes to no benefit. Unless you're hauling Meganobz, I'd suggest you put the Trukks in the scrap pile.

FAST ATTACK
Stormboyz: Stormboyz are basically Choppa Boyz with Rokkitpacks (Jump Packs that occasionally explode...another theme of the Orks). They do NOT have the WAAAGH! rule, so they cannot become Fleet after they've use their Rokkit Packs to get nice and close to the enemy to ensure they're going to get the charge. Luckily, the Rokkit Pack itself grants a free 1d6 inches in addition to your base 12" Jump movement, so they essentially are including a free Run that they can still Assault after. The nerf to Furious Charge makes their Stikkbombs pretty worthless, but the overall buff to Jump Infantry makes them seem quite usable to me. They WILL get cut down to any concentrated fire, so try to only assault things that can't fire Overwatch at normal BS. Make sure you bring 15-20 per unit, or none at all. As always, Powerklaw Nob with Bosspole.

Warbuggies: 10/10/10, Open-Topped and Fast Squadron (1-3). The change to Vehicle Squadrons may just make Twin-Linked Rokkit Buggies a better choice than Twin-Linked Rokkit Koptas. They're certainly cheaper, and Fast Gun-Vehicles are still good. Grot Riggers aren't really worth buying, unless you have a lot of Meks, because the Buggies only have 2 Hull Points and can die to small arms fire. Wartrakks remain excellent, making it so you can safely zip into cover for that all-important save. I have 4 Warbuggies sitting in my conversion box, so now that I've noticed how good they might be, I'll probably be trying to hurry them onto the field.

Warbikerz: Boyz, except they go really fast, have good armor, free 4+ Cover, guns that can hit AND wound, and cost about 4 times as much. 100% worth it. T5, 4+ is pretty fantastic, and their speed makes them more than just a Powerklaw Delivery System--they deliver it damn fast, though. Decent as Fast Attack, but they're great as Troops. If you want buckets of bikes, grab Wazdakka and get your Speed Freak on. Otherwise, consider taking Nob Bikers instead (as Troops, with a Warboss, also on a bike).

Deffkoptas: Jetbikes are pretty awesome, and that's exactly what these are. The new Jink save will help slightly with anything AP4 or better, but the fact that they're now True T5 and immune to Instant-Death-By-Krak-Missiles means their two wounds last much longer. They can also take Powerklaws, Scout, and Hit & Run (though their low Initiative is a mild hindrance), in order to maximize their runnin' and gunnin' and krumpin'. Still one of the better options for medium and heavy tank-hunting.


HEAVY SUPPORT
Battlewagon: 14/12/10, Open-Topped Tank. Holds up to 20 boyz. Probably the best ground-bound transport tank in the game, because unlike the Land Raider, it's CHEAP: maybe 130 points if you buy all the good stuff without going crazy. Speaking of the good stuff, Deff Rollas will NEVER not be funny. Re-roll dangerous terrain tests AND deal 1d6 S10 AP- hits automatically to anything you Tank Shock or Ram? And another 1d6 hits if that unit tries to Death Or Glory? Ramming other vehicles with the Battlewagon from about 2 inches away is the best feeling, because there's nothing your opponent can do about it, and if it's a full transport and it happens to explode, GUESS WHO GETS RUN OVER BY THE DEFF ROLLA? I don't know if the Deff Rolla increase the effective Hull Size for the purpose of disembarkation, but if it does, it's worth the price for that alone. This thing can even pretend to be a short-range, S7 Leman Russ when you buy a Killkannon, and still carry half-a-dozen boyz into the fray. Dedicated Transport for Nobz and Meganobz, and Heavy Support Transport for everyone else. The only bad thing about Battlewagons is that it's impossible to have enough of them for all of your boyz and your elites if you don't spam Nobz...though the new Multiple Detachments rules for going over 2000 points may actually help with that a lot. Can you imagine fielding 10 of these squeezed into exactly 2000 points? Or with a little wiggle room at 2500?

Deff Dread: 12/12/10, Walker. Very cheap. Must take 2 additional weapons, but even the most expensive of them only brings you to the price of a basic Vanilla Marine Dreadnought with WAY better combat skills. S10 with Dreadnought Close Combat Weapons, and a maximum of 6 attacks on the charge. You still get up to 5 of them on the field under 2000 points, and 2 of those will be Scoring (Each Big Mek allows you to take one as Troops). If they weren't competing with Battlewagons for slots, I'd probably already own several. The new rules for grenades will likely really hurt Deff Dreads, which is a shame, because they don't see enough play as it is.

Killa Kans: 11/11/10, Walker Squadron (1-3). The weedier cousins to the Deff Dread, these walkers are piloted by Grots instead of Boyz. They still wield DCCW's and are S10 with 3 attacks on the charge, so anything they run into will be feeling some pain. They are even weaker to grenades than Deff Dreads due to lower armor, but their numbers should generally make up for it. Their NEW big weakness is the nerf to cover--it used to be that you could roll out 9 of these in front of a KFF Big Mek and a big Green Tide, and everyone would have 4+ Cover saves for the long slog to the front lines. Now, however, with only 2 Hull Points and cover being 5+ standard, they're much weaker to glancing hits from medium arms fire. Not even the new vehicle squadron rules can make up for that, I suspect. Anyways, they also have a mandatory weapon purchase, and I suggest either the Rokkit Launcha (the Grot BS 3 is amazing for Orks) or the Grotzooka (S6 Heavy 2 Blast. Yes, Heavy TWO). Always run them in 3's. Combining them with Deff Dreads and the new Multiple Detachment rules, entire armies of nothing but Meks and Walkers are now potentially viable at 2000 points, though it's hard to say whether they'd be good for super-tourneys. Seeing the look on someone's face as you pull out 22 Walkers and then at least 500 MORE POINTS worth of stuff would probably be worth any entrance fee, though. Did I go over how cheap Ork Walkers are?

Flash Gitz: Nobz with snazzy guns (called Snazzgunz, obviously) and 4+ armor. They used to be able to pre-measure their shots, but now that everyone can do that, they've been given Ignores Cover instead. This doesn't seem like much, but once you slap on their many (pricey) available upgrades, they become S6 AP 1d6-1 Assault 2 (Get's Hot!)--THIS is a weapon most people will want to hide from, and now they can't! Unfortunately, the cost of this unit will easily top 500 if you buy every upgrade, their special character, and/or a transport to put them in (No Dedicated Transport again. ARGH). Painboys are an option, and I would ways recommend them--you've already put so many points into the unit, may was well put in a few more to double its survivability.

Big Gunz: Artillery Battery (1-3), T7 W2. Artillery got so buffed by the new rules, I wish I could just take all Big Gunz and forget about any other anti-tank I might ever think I need. There are 3 types of Big Gun: Kannons, which are just anyone else's Frag & Krak Missiles with a 36" range; Lobbas, which are S5 AP5 Large Blast Barrage and great for firing from behind walls; and Zzap Guns, which are like the Shokk Attack gun in that they roll randomly for Strength, are AP2, and occasionally kill the gunner. Kannons are the cheapest and also the best in my opinion--the Ork army always lacks anti-tank capability, and if there's nothing else to fire at, you can always lob Frag Missiles instead. Ammo Runts are a must no matter which Gun you buy, because they let you reroll to hit once per Runt. Unfortunately, sometimes that means you'll use them all on the first turn, but for only 9 points, one reroll per Gun isn't a bad price. You can also toss a Runtherd on to the unit to get their Leadership up and keep them firing for as long as you have Grot Krew. Some day I intend to field an all-grot army (probably lead by Old Zogwort and Mad Dok Grotsnik, for maximum silliness), and put some 250 tiny bodies on the field for less than 1200 points. I can't imagine beating anyone, except by accident, but how cool would that be?

Looted Wagon: 11/11/10, Open-Topped Tank, holds up to 12 boyz. Literally a tank stolen from any other army (traditionally a Rhino, but any vehicle will work), the Looted Wagon is a great opportunity for modeling, but little else. The 'Don't Press Dat!' rule means that 1/6 of the time you drive off at top speed and don't get to shoot or have troops disembark, and for costing the same price as a Rhino, having two big disadvantages (I count Open-Topped, especially now that Assaulting out of transports has been nerfed) is a major turn-off. You could buy a big Boomgun (S8 AP3 Large Blast) and actually do fairly well do with its 36" range, but losing all transport capacity and taking up your highly sought-after Heavy Support slots for something a Battlewagon can do much better for a few more points just seems foolish to me. They're not even Dedicated Transports for anyone--aside from fluff (or goofing around), I just don't see the point in taking them.


SPECIAL CHARACTERS
Ghazghkull Thraka: Meganob Boss. :smallsigh: I guess it just goes to show you, no matter how big a boss you are, you're still going to be subject to stupid rules changes that don't get fixed in the FAQ. Thraka is still the biggest and the toughest (except for my Biker Boss, lol), and he still hits like a Deff Rolla on a Battlebarge, but his Big Special Power has been severely nerfed. His power is this: you may call your Waaagh! at any time after the first game turn, and it lasts for one full game turn. All non-fleeing units are Fearless, Thraka becomes 2+ Invulnerable, and all Orks automatically roll a 6 to Run and are Fleet. This used to be amazing--roll up 13" in a Red vehicle, jump out of the Open-Top 2.99", Run 6", and Assault 6". 27.99", with only Dark Eldar able to match that speed if they were lucky (though they could do it on the first turn). Now, with the change to Fleet, you just get Fearless and an Invulnable Thraka, and the third part goes to waste 90+% of the time. Sure, the first two are good, but it was that 6" Fleet Run you bought him for. DON'T FORGET THE BEST PART: Because Thraka has Slow & Purposeful, HE CAN'T EVEN GET THAT 6" RUN! :smallsigh: And his model is so cool too. I guess I can always use him as an extra-large and nasty Meganob.

Mad Dok Grotsnik: Painboy Boss. When I first read the new Rage rule, I was ecstatic. After checking my rulebook, however, my Waaagh! came crashing down--Grotsnik does NOT, in fact, have the Rage rule. Nor does he grant it to the unit his is with, as I thought he would. Instead, he just gets all the bad parts of the old rule (running forward and getting kited by anything he can't catch) and none of the good of the new one. He's still Fearless (big whoop, so is any big squad of boyz), and he grants FNP to his squad--THIS is still amazing, especially with 'Ard Boyz or a KFF providing a blanket 5+ Cover save. He can also give any unit Cybork Body for 5pts/model, which can result in both awesome things like Cybork Meganobz, and silly things like Cyber-Grots. He's still good if you field him just right, but anything other than that and you'll probably end up screwing yourself over at one point or another.

Wazdakka Gutsmek: Biker Boss. Now at true T6, Wazdakka is the best Special Character the Orks have. He makes Warbikerz into Troops (not Nob Bikerz, though, so you'll still need a Biker Warboss to make the 'ardest unit in the book (and possibly the game) Scoring. His bike is cool, but the gun is only somewhat useful, because it's BS2 but not Twin-Linked. He can also repair vehicles with his Mek's Tools, which is really only useful if what he wants to charge is right next to said vehicle, because like almost all Orks, close combat is where he belongs.

Old Zogwort: The Weird-Boss, Zogwort unfortunately doesn't give you Weirdboy Elites, or some kind of variant Madboy troops whose special abilities include random movement and occasionally nuking your entire army from space by accident. What he does give you is a boatload of Poison (2+) attacks at S4 on the charge (re-rolling versus Marines and Necrons, yay), some of them at flat Initiative 4 (which isn't effected by the Furious Charge nerf). He's also a psyker, and thus can randomly do any number of hilarious things like blowing off his own head, or teleporting into a solid cliff face, or transforming enemy Independent Characters into Squigs. That last one is his own special power, and you can always choose to try it instead of rolling randomly, which is pretty cool. Unfortunately, it does only work on Independent Characters--Guard and Nids are mostly immune, and everyone who isn't Blood Angels or Space Wolves should be able to keep their most important characters out of the way until he's dead. It CAN be used while Zogwort is in close combat (or target a character locked in close combat), which is especially amazing when it comes to challenges, and it only needs to work once to be totally worth it. He is number 3 or 4 on my list of models to kustom-build, because I recently acquired a nice bit of shed snakeskin, and I'm going to decorate the hell out of him.

Boss Snikrot: :smallfrown: Kommando Boss. I bought my Snikrot model as soon as I started playing orks, and I've used him in almost every single game. He wasn't perfect, but he could sneak my Warboss to any table edge I wanted, so he always cleaned up the messes the rest of the boyz left lying around. This now has to change, because his special ability is utterly useless. Ambush was functionally a special Outlfank that allowed you to bring him on from any table edge automatically. When you could come out of nowhere and assault anything your opponent happened to leave lying around and obliterate it, completely changing the face of the game....oh, that was amazing. The New Reserves shoots all of that in the foot. Then, it reloads, and pumps another 17 clips into its face. I really hope GW gives us an FAQ fix that gives Snikrot "able to assault when he comes in" like Boss Zagstukk or Vanguard Veterans. Or a new Codex--that might help. Until then, Snikrot's going to have to sit on my shelf.

Boss Zagstrukk: Stormboy Boss. Zagstruk MUST Deepstrike onto the field, and unlike Snikrot, he may Assault on the turn he lands. He also counts as having a Powerklaw that strikes at Initiatitive (3, now, instead of the Furious Charge 4 it used to be) instead of his normal S4 attacks whenever he charges. He even comes with a 4+ save and Cybork Body, something most of the other special characters desperately need. When he Deepstrikes, if he and his boyz assault, you automatically lose 1d3 of them before combat (counts for resolution, sadly) to crash landings. At any time, if the Stormboyz would fail a morale test, instead one boy is automatically executed and you count as having passed the test. Between these two special rules, I would always highly suggest bringing as many Stormboyz as you can afford with Zagstruk, both to keep yourself from killing all of your own orks before the enemy has a chance, and to make sure you've got the fighting strength to pulp anything your opponent has on the field.

Kaptin Badrukk: Flash Git Boss, and Freeboota Kaptin Extraordinaire. With a 3+ Armor save, 5+ Invulnerable save, and 5+ Feel No Pain save if you bought the Painboy as part of the Flashgits unit (ALWAYS BUY PAINBOYS), Badrukk is easily the most survivable special character (aside from Thraka). He comes with 3 of his own personal Ammo Runts, which is great, as well as his own Super Special Gun: DA RIPPA. Weighing in at S7 AP2 Assault 3 (Gets Hot!, and Ignores Cover thanks to his Gitfinda), Da Rippa is also possibly the best gun in the Ork army (mostly because with those Ammo Runts it actually stands a chance of hitting). So best armor, best gun...the only thing holding him back is the fact that a full squad of Flash Gits is roughly 500 points once you factor in the Painboy (YAY PAINBOYS), upgrades to the Snazzguns, and a Battlewagon to put them all in. Don't forget that the Battlewagon also makes them take up TWO Heavy Support slots. In large games, especially where you're taking Multiple Detachments and aren't taking big squads of Nob Bikerz, Flash Gits can be amazing. Otherwise, unfortunately, it's just too expensive to field them both outside of Apocalyptic points values.


FORGEWORLD
There is so much stuff that I could put here, it would be faster for you to just go find a copy of Imperial Armor 8 and read the whole thing. Not everything in there is good (or even always usable), but it's certainly fun. The Dreadmob List is really cool, and is definitely what you want to look into if you're interested in all-walker lists for Orks. You can field something like 29 walkers per Detachment (18 Scoring), which is insane. There is ONE unit I simply must rave about, however....

Grot Tanks: 10/10/10/, Tank squadron (3-6). If you take a Big Mek (and you usually do), you can bring a unit of these adorable little things as an Elites choice with a regular Codex: Orks army. They're cheap, have a 5+ Invulnerable save against everything that isn't Ordinance (or Destroyer, an Apocalypse thing), and can mount Grotzookas. Sure, they can mount other guns, but none of them matter in my opinion. 6-12 S6 Blasts every single turn is utterly insane versus hordes and Monsterous Creatures alike (their large base size makes hitting them a cakewalk), and with the new 'Not-Half-Strength' rule for blasts falling off-center of vehicles, they can even strip the hulls from standard transports with ease. To be perfectly honest, I can't see much of a downside to them--their weak armor and 2 Hull Points is offset by their cheapness and 5+ Invul. Taking any number is guaranteed to make you giggle once they start dropping little pie plates everywhere, and if your opponent doesn't draw blood trying to avoid cussing you out on the day you can't stop rolling Direct Hits, I'll eat my own shoes.




THIS IS THE END
...There. That only took about 2 days to put together. Not bad. I always welcome comments, critiques, and general disagreement, because I am fully aware that this is based on my own personal feelings rather than any objective facts or statistics. Please let me know if you think I've left anything out. I think I'm at least on the right track with most of this, and that really only leaves one thing left...

WAAAAAAAAAAAGGGHHH!!!

TL;DR -- Some slight exaggerations
HQ's: Biker Bosses rule, Big Meks are good but less mandatory.
Elites: Nob Bikerz are amazing. Burnas, Lootas, and Grot Tanks are good. Meganobs are only good because 2+ armor. Kommandos suck.
Troops: Shootaboyz forever. Grots are cheap. Trukks are useless.
Fast Attack: Everything here has been buffed. Bikerz are better being Troops for Wazdakka.
Heavy Support: Battlewagons are still good. Big Gunz got a huge buff. Dreads and Kanz are less good.
Special Characters: Thraka is useless. Grotsnik is meh. Wazdakka is good. Zogwort is funny. Snikrot is WORSE than useless. Zagstruk is decent, but not great. Badrukk is expensive in an expensive unit, but there are worse things you can buy. Like Snikrot. :smallfurious:

[The_Jackal]

So, I'm getting the 6th edition rulebook, should pick it up this evening. I have question, however. A friend of mine has declared the intention of making a Deathwing Assault force, which allegedly allows him to put half his points into a Deep Strike on turn 1, and then place the balance of his points into drop pods, which would be deployed using the normal reserves rules. Is someone familiar with the Deathwing special rules? And is such a tactic effective? It seems to me like landing on the table with only half your battleforce is going to get you destroyed in detail, assuming it's legal at all.

[thedavo]

Today is a special day. Today, I give you a gift:


Hootman’s Likely Misguided Thoughts on Orks
OR
Orks VS 6th Edition: Still Needs Moar Dakka


WARNING: This is quite long. I have included a TL;DR section below for those of you without the time or inclination to read everything I wrote.

TL;DR -- Some slight exaggerations
HQ's: Biker Bosses rule, Big Meks are good but less mandatory.
Elites: Nob Bikerz are amazing. Burnas, Lootas, and Grot Tanks are good. Meganobs are only good because 2+ armor. Kommandos suck.
Troops: Shootaboyz forever. Grots are cheap. Trukks are useless.
Fast Attack: Everything here has been buffed. Bikerz are better being Troops for Wazdakka.
Heavy Support: Battlewagons are still good. Big Gunz got a huge buff. Dreads and Kanz are less good.
Special Characters: Thraka is useless. Grotsnik is meh. Wazdakka is good. Zogwort is funny. Snikrot is WORSE than useless. Zagstruk is decent, but not great. Badrukk is expensive in an expensive unit, but there are worse things you can buy. Like Snikrot. :smallfurious:

Thanks for that. Opinions on the planes, other than Dakkajets rule? Haven't got, nor can afford a small mountain of bikes, and the Bommer model is ace. Haven't worked out my "standard" 6e list yet, but will probably involve stripping bck on the kans and the dreds, and taking a Dakkajet (cos it's good), or Blitza Bomma (cos it's hilarious) or two.

[Voidhawk]

What do you think of the Fortification and Allies options for orks? Would a unit of grots on an objective hiding under an Aegis line with quad gun sound like something that would suit your playstyle? Or would it simply take points away from runnin'-and-gunnin'?

[BoSheck]

So, I'm getting the 6th edition rulebook, should pick it up this evening. I have question, however. A friend of mine has declared the intention of making a Deathwing Assault force, which allegedly allows him to put half his points into a Deep Strike on turn 1, and then place the balance of his points into drop pods, which would be deployed using the normal reserves rules. Is someone familiar with the Deathwing special rules? And is such a tactic effective? It seems to me like landing on the table with only half your battleforce is going to get you destroyed in detail, assuming it's legal at all.

Yes, Deathwing Assault allows half of his deathwing units to teleport in turn one. Usually Deathwing has a little Ravenwing support (scouting bikes with teleport homers), meaning that they're very much in your face turn 1, and threatening an assault next turn. If you can't deal with a bunch of hammernators, then yeah it's gonna be good. A 5-man deathwing squad with CMLs is 240, if he goes whole hog, then you're looking a 25 scoring hammernators (and 170 points left over to buy drop pods, an apothecary or a librarian) at 1500 points.

Secondly, Drop Pod Assault and Deathwing Assault are two different rules. So...I guess he'd be able to get about 3/4 of his terminators out there turn 1? I'd just as soon have the rest hang camp some objectives and toss missiles at any problems. See, the thing about that army, is they don't HAVE to Deathwing Assault. They don't have to all be hammernators, either.

[Hootman]

Deathwing Assault force, which allegedly allows him to put half his points into a Deep Strike on turn 1, and then place the balance of his points into drop pods, which would be deployed using the normal reserves rules. Is someone familiar with the Deathwing special rules?

The Dark Angels codex does indeed allow for that, though you've messed up one important detail. The Deathwing is all Terminators, all the time, and they Deepstrike by teleportation rather than in Drop Pods. It's also not a matter of points, but whole units (regardless of cost).

"At the beginning of your first turn, you may choose up to half (rounding up) of the Deathwing Terminator squads kept in reserve to make a 'Deathwing Assault'. Units making a Deathwing Assault arrive on the player's first turn using the Deepstrike rules. The arrival of the remaining units held in reserve is rolled for as normal."

This tactic is now stronger than it used to be, because Reserves rolls have gotten easier in 6th Edition. You may only land on the field piecemeal, but Terminators are so goddamn difficult to kill for an army without the right weapons handy that it hardly matters. And, Terminators are always resiliant in Assault, and their Deepstrike can land them much closer to the places they want to be. If your friend is smart, they will invest in at least one unit of Ravenwing Bikers, because Teleport Homers are a god-send in Deathwing lists. A general reminder: reading the FAQ is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT currently, especially for well-out-of-date Codices like Dark Angels.



Thanks for that. Opinions on the planes, other than Dakkajets rule? Haven't got, nor can afford a small mountain of bikes, and the Bommer model is ace. Haven't worked out my "standard" 6e list yet, but will probably involve stripping bck on the kans and the dreds, and taking a Dakkajet (cos it's good), or Blitza Bomma (cos it's hilarious) or two.

Oh, how clumsy of me to forget those. I'll make sure to edit them in as soon as I have the time. My current impressions, however, are thus:

Dakkajets: WIN.
Burnabommas: WUT. NO. WASTE.
Blitzabommas: HILARIOUS. BUT NO.

I will try to have a more nuanced response later.


What do you think of the Fortification and Allies options for orks? Would a unit of grots on an objective hiding under an Aegis line with quad gun sound like something that would suit your playstyle? Or would it simply take points away from runnin'-and-gunnin'?

Ack! All of these new rules that I thought I had accounted for, how could I miss something so obvious! Like the Flyers, I will have to come up with a better response later after doing some reading, but right now, I'm feeling...

Allies: Initial impressions are poor do to the lack of Battle Brothers, and sparsity of even Allies of Convenience. However, having IG or Necron Allies is a bad idea for NO ONE. Seriously, Meltavets and Ghostarks are everything Orks wish they could do versus tanks, and putting a trio of Leman Russes in your one Heavy slot cannot possibly be a bad idea. The only thing holding me back is points--Orks spend a lot on their HQ's, Nobz, and Fast Attack, and have an absurd reliance on Battlewagons. Luckily, slots do not appear to be an issue, as the Ally gets their own rather than being integrated.

Fortifications: The one block of rules I know I haven't read yet. Grots + Aegis SOUND hilarious though (2+ Cover when you go to ground? Hot DAMN!), and I promise to look into that more ASAP. However, as I said, Lootas are honestly really good at Flyer-hunting, so any gun you buy specifically designed to do that is just icing on the cake. Remember, Deffguns are also S7 AP4, might as well have Optional Skyfire due to being naturally BS2, and can put a lot more (admittedly less accurate) shots into the air.

[The_Jackal]

Okay, the part I'm not being clear about is my friend is asserting that he will be able to start the game with ZERO units in his deployment zone. Half his points will be the Deathwing Assault force, the rest will be packed into drop pods. I'm wanting to know if this is a legal thing to do, not having immediate access to the codex and rulebooks yet.

[Renegade Paladin]

Okay, the part I'm not being clear about is my friend is asserting that he will be able to start the game with ZERO units in his deployment zone. Half his points will be the Deathwing Assault force, the rest will be packed into drop pods. I'm wanting to know if this is a legal thing to do, not having immediate access to the codex and rulebooks yet.
It used to be. I don't know about with the 6th edition rules, though. I don't have my rulebook yet, but I have been told by people who've seen it that you must start with at least half your army on the table, and if you end any turn with no units on the table you automatically lose, regardless of how much you have in reserve.

[Wraith]

Okay, the part I'm not being clear about is my friend is asserting that he will be able to start the game with ZERO units in his deployment zone. Half his points will be the Deathwing Assault force, the rest will be packed into drop pods. I'm wanting to know if this is a legal thing to do, not having immediate access to the codex and rulebooks yet.

This is entirely legal - multiple armies can do it, including virtually all types of Space Marines, Tyranids and (as far as I know) Dark Eldar. It's also mandatory for Chaos Daemons! :smalltongue:

Having said that, if you're wanting to do this then you're usually better off in Drop Pods and Deep Striking than you are arriving through, say, outflanking as the the latter very famously has an unbeatable counter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7900255&postcount=184).... :smallwink:

What you're looking at there is the Guy-In-White having an army that arrives on the table during his first turn, due to the Outflank rule, and the Guy-In-Black who has Infiltrated a couple of units along the Guy-In-White's table edge.
According to the rulebook, which Guy-In-White and the tournament's Referee are desperately trying to verify, this leaves no way at all for the Guy-In-White's army to arrive on the table, and so Guy-In-Black wins a crushing victory without firing a shot. :smallbiggrin:

Bottom line is, it either works really well (everyone comes on exactly when they need to and land in a perfect spot - statistically possible, but unlikely) or it falls to pieces very quickly, especially against armies that can shoot at half your army and cripple it, and then spend the rest of the game mopping up the 1 or 2 units that arrive in subsequent turns.


It used to be. I don't know about with the 6th edition rules, though. I don't have my rulebook yet, but I have been told by people who've seen it that you must start with at least half your army on the table, and if you end any turn with no units on the table you automatically lose, regardless of how much you have in reserve.

"If one player concedes the battle, or his entire army is wiped out, the game ends and a crushing victory goes to his opponent. Likewise, if at the end of any game turn, one player has no models on the battlefield, his opponent automatically wins." (Page 122, 'Victory Conditions').

It still works, but only provided that you get the first turn and manage to deploy something before it ends. If your opponent gets the first turn, at the end of it you will automatically lose! :smalltongue:

[Voidhawk]

You may start with up to half your army (counting "army" as number of units, with units that behave separately, (eg IG Infantry Platoons) separating before beeing counted) in reserve. This doesn't count units that MUST start in reserve.

So if you have 4 squads and 2 flyers, you must deploy at least 2 squads, 2 squads may be deployed or in reserve, and the flyers must be in reserve.

Where it gets uncertain is Drop Pods, and other transport vehicles that must start in reserve like the Night Scythe. As they must start in reserve, they don't count to the limit. But does the unit inside count?...

[Hootman]

Okay, the part I'm not being clear about is my friend is asserting that he will be able to start the game with ZERO units in his deployment zone. Half his points will be the Deathwing Assault force, the rest will be packed into drop pods. I'm wanting to know if this is a legal thing to do, not having immediate access to the codex and rulebooks yet.

RenegadePaladin is right; such a tactic WAS legal in 5th Edition. However, it is NOT legal in 6th Edition.


When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy up to half of their units (rounding up) keeping them as Reserves to arrive later. Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purpose of working out how many other units may do so. A unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as one unit for these purposes. Independent Characters are also counted as a single unit regardless of whether they have joined a unit of not.

Emphasis mine. So, any unit that is in a Drop Pod may be left in Reserves, and does not count for the 'Half Only' rule if you choose to do so. Deathwing units, however, do NOT have to start in Reserves. Only 50% of your friend's Non-Drop Pod units, including Deathwing Terminator units, may be held in Reserve.

I do not see anything about "If you happen to have no models on the board but do have Reserves left, you lose anyways" anywhere in this section, but it's possible that the rule exists. Someone who knows the book better may be able to quote a page.

EDIT: Well, THAT was quick.


If one player concedes the battle, or his entire army is wiped out, the game ends and a crushing victory goes to his opponent. Likewise, if at the end of any game turn, one player has no models on the battlefield, his opponent automatically wins.

EDIT 2:

It still works, but only provided that you get the first turn and manage to deploy something before it ends. If your opponent gets the first turn, at the end of it you will automatically lose! :smalltongue:

Unfortunately, my first quote disputes your claim. Page 124 clearly states that, with the exception of fielding an army that MUST all start in Reserves (All-Pod lists and Chaos Daemons), only half of your regular units may begin the game there.

[BoSheck]

Remember, Game Turn and Player Turn are two distinct things. At least they used to be.

[The_Jackal]

Okay, that's pretty loopy. So, basically, there's no way he can allocate a Deathwing Assault group without having the 'other half' of his DW terminators being non-reserve, if I'm interpreting this correctly. I'll check the rule once I've got the rulebook and can cross-compare it to the errata.

[Renegade Paladin]

Okay, that's pretty loopy. So, basically, there's no way he can allocate a Deathwing Assault group without having the 'other half' of his DW terminators being non-reserve, if I'm interpreting this correctly. I'll check the rule once I've got the rulebook and can cross-compare it to the errata.
Well, the thing for him to do would be to take Ravenwing units and start them on the board, and keep all his Terminators in reserve (with the Ravenwing being the half that must be deployed). But yeah, all-Deathwing surprise attacks don't work anymore, which is too bad really, since it's what they're fluff-wise supposed to do. :smalltongue:

Edit:
It still works, but only provided that you get the first turn and manage to deploy something before it ends. If your opponent gets the first turn, at the end of it you will automatically lose! :smalltongue:
Wait. Does this mean that if Chaos Daemons don't go first, they automatically lose?

[Ishikar]

Edit:
Wait. Does this mean that if Chaos Daemons don't go first, they automatically lose?

If you wanted to be a real jerk then yes, but don't expect any tournament organizer to agree with you on that call. Around the best I could expect it would be if you manager to kill off their initial deep strike forces before any more hit then you would win, but that's HARD to do if your opponent's list is built right.

Got some more 6E watching in this weekend (not as much playing as I'd want) and I found a few things:

1) Monstrous creatures are the new terminator killers.
2) Flying creatures are hideously mobile.
3) Eternal Warrior + FNP = RIDICULOUSLY broken.

A newer chaos player managed to stomp one of our players who's deathwing/ravenwing list tabled my Tau in turn 4 in the Relic scenario we played (which, by-the-by, is a STUPIDLY hard scenario for Tau to win). The flying rules let the creatures get into assault range without dying to the shooting and higher initiative AP2 kept the thunder hammers and fists from getting their hits in as needed. It wasn't nearly as broken vs. a 10 man squad as his next game showed but the deathwing 5-man pods were taken down rather handily.

As for the Eternal Warrior + FNP, as per my reading it allows Plague bearers a FNP vs. Tau Railgun shots as only Instant Death breaks FNP and eternal warrior prevents that. Add Epidemious and plague marines in a chaos marines list with demon allies and it turns stupid. 75% wound negation vs. anything with the plague bearers.

[Penguinizer]

Was he playing Chaos Space Marines? Because CSM Wings aren't actually flying. But yeah, I like new FNP in general. It's not an outright nerf with the change to 5+ but not really a buff either.

[Ishikar]

No, the Demon player was playing a full demon's list. The FNP + epidemious part was somthing that I realized while helping a co-worker get started in the game. He was looking at a Nurgle themed list and wanted a few Chaos Demon Allies. I knew the HQ to take but didn't realize how nasty it could get with Plague Bearers on the table as well. I did recommend Nurgle Bikers to him as well (T6 but sadly no FNP on them) when he asked what would be a good Fast Attack slot to fill in that list with the Plague Marine/Nurgle Chaos troops.

The writing on Epidemius makes him a VERY powerful HQ in the new edition, a +2 bonus to FNP after you get 15 kills? Situational at best but against a Nids player, kroot screens, or other sacrificial units, it gets nasty fast.

Edit: Hmm... double checked the FAQ and I think it's really odd that they didn't make the Chaos Marines demon princes wings make him a flyer like the ones in the demon codex. I'd give it to him just because it's really the same unit across 2 books, just looks like another piece of sloppy errata/FAQ to me.

I've found that it seems to be a pretty rampant issue with the new edition just like the magic question of "Who get's Flak?" and "Why do tau suits/space wolves all have a rule that helps outflank?" Hopefully they'll catch and fix those issues in the next go over.

[BoSheck]

It isn't odd at all that the Princes out of C:CSM don't count as fliers, seeing as how they clock in at 130 points, come with S6 and a 3+/5++, while the same thing would be a little under 200 (like, what, 190?) in the Daemons codex. Expect there to be flying options with a price jump next codex.

[Cheesegear]

Okay, this isn't an exhaustive list. But, mostly this is the stuff that's good to take for Marines. Stuff in bold was also good last edition;

Marneus Calgar, Sicarius, Cassius, Pedro, Lysander, Shrike, He'Stan, Kor'Sarro, Bike Captain, Librarian.
Command Squads

As you can see, Space Marines can use pretty much anything that they used to last edition. And even the actual Ultramarine characters are good now. Except Tigurius. He's way over-priced. Still. If you want his Reserves bonus, use Allies with Imperial Guard, Eldar or Grey Knights. Even if you have to put in an extra Troops, you're probably still going to come out cheaper than Tigurius.

Tactical Squads in Rhinos.
Rifle Scouts
Bikes

Razorbacks took a bit of a nerf. But, with the new way that Combat Squads works, Rhinos are fairly amazing. Shotgun Scouts are also not a good pick because of the nerf to Outflank-Charging, which means Land Speeder Storms aren't anywhere near as good anymore. The change from Razorbacks to Rhinos shouldn't be too difficult since it's recommended by practically everyone that you don't glue your Razor turrets down and keep the Rhino hatches, right? Right!?

Note that Bikes are in Troops, not Fast Attack.

Terminators, Assault Terminators, Sternguard, Dreadnoughts, Ironclad Dreadnoughts.

Again, the old options we had are still good, and now we have a few more options. Hint; 2+ Armour and AV13. The only really big nerf to Terminators is no more Khan+Hammers+Land Raider = Outflank, you're dead. If you still want to do that, you might be better off with a real Land Raider (with the Lascannons...I know, right?), and regular Terminators with a Heavy Flamer.

Vanguard Veterans (Shrike), Land Speeders, Stormtalons

The most expensive unit in the Codex is actually useful now. Enjoy. Nobody's Land Speeders have gone anywhere and can fairly decently shoot down a Flyer if you've got double Multi-Meltas and He'Stan. Stormtalons are not good, the only reason you'd take them now is because they're better at shooting Flyers than a Land Speeder.

Devastators, Thunderfire Cannon, Land Raiders, Predators, Vindicators.

Again, our old choices are still good. But our new choices are also kind of amazing. Thunderfire Cannon behind an Aegis Defense Line to ravage my opponent's ADL? No? It's only me who does that? 'Kay.

The only thing Space Marines 'lost' in regards to competitiveness was Razorbacks (which easily turn into Rhinos) and Land Speeder Storms filled with Scouts for Outflanking dual-Melta-ing Power Fisting doom which no-one except me apparently used anyway.

[TooManySecrets]

Add Epidemious and plague marines in a chaos marines list with demon allies and it turns stupid. 75% wound negation vs. anything with the plague bearers.

There's a very important part of Epidemius that most people miss:


Q: When The Tally of Pestilence reaches 20+ casualties the rules say that 'All attacks from followers of Nurgle ignore armour saves'. Was this intended to affect both ranged and close combat attacks by the followers of Nurgle, as the text seems to indicate?

A: Yes, that is indeed the case. Both ranged and close combat attacks.

For Chaos Daemons, almost no Nurgle unit has ranged attacks (except for Aura of Decay). Chaos Space Marines, however...

[Cheesegear]

There's a very important part of Epidemius that most people miss

Most people don't miss that at all. It's the sole reason that a total of five people in my immediate gaming circle are picking up Chaos Daemons. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13492157&postcount=1424) Not to mention that even without Epidemius, Plague Marines are one of the best Troops choices in the game.

[TooManySecrets]

Most people don't miss that at all. It's the sole reason that a total of five people in my immediate gaming circle are picking up Chaos Daemons. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13492157&postcount=1424) Not to mention that even without Epidemius, Plague Marines are one of the best Troops choices in the game.

Cheesegear, do you think it's worth it to give anti-armor duty to your Plague Marines with 2 meltaguns, or do you think it would be better to give it to longer range options? I'm thinking of this in the context of a mostly Plague Marine list.

[Squark]

Well, the thing for him to do would be to take Ravenwing units and start them on the board, and keep all his Terminators in reserve (with the Ravenwing being the half that must be deployed). But yeah, all-Deathwing surprise attacks don't work anymore, which is too bad really, since it's what they're fluff-wise supposed to do. :smalltongue:

Edit:
Wait. Does this mean that if Chaos Daemons don't go first, they automatically lose?

Game Turn. NOT player turn.

So, no, GW is not totally incompetent in that regard.

[Wyntonian]

Forgive me for interrupting again with questions, but would someone mind explaining for me the difference between a cover, armor and invulnerable save? I've read that section a couple times now, and I'm not really getting it.

[shadowwalker64]

Forgive me for interrupting again with questions, but would someone mind explaining for me the difference between a cover, armor and invulnerable save? I've read that section a couple times now, and I'm not really getting it.

Okay, these all come under saves, as a general group. Basically, if you are successfully wounded, you take 1 save. You may not take more than one type of save for a wound, so every time you are wounded, you take an armour, an invun OR a cover save. The difference between all of them is how they are negated by certain things.

An armour save is something noted at the end of a unit profile, and is the most common save. It is negated by AP on weapons, which ignore your armour save if the AP is equal to or lower to your armour save number.

Invun saves are not noted down through unit profile (normally) but are often conferred through wargear or special rules. They work exactly like an armour save, but they are unaffected by AP and the majority of other rules (some weapons on special characters have rules which negate or reduce the effectiveness of Invuns). They are often notated as 3++, 4++, 5++ or 6++ depending on the save (a double plus instead of a single one)

Cover save is a save that is artificially acquired through the game and is determined by special rules (like bikes, smoke screens on vehicles) or by terrain. What this save is is noted in parts of the rulebook or wargear, as the case may be. It works, once again, exactly like an armour save, but is once again unaffected by AP. Many weapons (notably template weapons) ignore cover saves.

[Eldan]

Armour saves are an ability of the model and its equipment. Some weapons pierce armour of a certain value, however, so it does not always apply. E.g. power armour gives a 3+ save, a power weapon is AP 3, so it ignores everything 3+ or worse. Ergo, it ignores power armour.

Cover saves you usually get from being in some kind of terrain, like a forest or fortification. They apply even against AP weapons, but are ignored by some other kinds of weapons. A few pieces of equipment can give you cover saves.

Invulnerable saves usually apply against all kinds of weapons.


So, basically, the difference is what they apply against. You always use the best. If your model has cover 4+ and armour 3+, it normally uses armour. Against an AP 3 weapon, it uses the 4+ cover instead, since that is not ignored.

[HoldTheLine31]

Hello everyone! Long time lurkers first post.

A few months a go me and several friends decided to join a gaming group and get started with 40k. Last week my first batch of minies arrived and now I'm assembling my guardmen :smallbiggrin:
I really like the setting and enjoyed reading some of the fluff. As far as gaming goes I do lean a bit towards the powergamer mindset, and like to crunch the numbers and min-max as long as it fits within the frame I've set (backstory, theme, feel of the army/character).

So here are two sample army lists for 1850pts:

HQ:
CCS (LC, Standard, MoO) - 115pts
Primaris Psyker - 70pts

Elites:
Sniper Team [count as Ratlings] (6x Snipers) - 60pts
PBS (8x (un)Sanctioaned Psykers) - 100pts

Troops:
Infantry Platoon;
PCS (4x Flamer, Chimera{ML, HB}) - 105pts
PIS (AC, GL) - 65pts
PIS (AC, GL) - 65pts
Infantry Platoon;
PCS (4x Melta, Chimera{ML, HB}) - 125pts
PIS (AC, GL) - 65pts
PIS (AC, GL) - 65pts
Veterans (3xPG, Chimera{ML, HB}) - 170pts

Fast Attack:
Scout Sentinel Squadron (3x Vanila Sentinels) - 105pts
Vendetta - 130pts

Heavy Support:
Leman Russ Demolisher (LC) - 180pts
Leman Russ Battle Tank (HB, HB Sponsos) - 170pts
Manticore (HB) - 160pts

Fortification:
Aegis Line with Quadgun - 100pts

Total - 1850pts

HQ:
CCS (LC, Standard, MoO) - 115pts
Primaris Psyker - 70pts

Elites:
Sniper Team [count as Ratlings] (6x Snipers) - 60pts
PBS (8x (un)Sanctioned Psykers) - 100pts

Troops:
Infantry Platoon;
PCS (4x Flamer, Chimera{ML, HB}) - 105pts
PIS (AC, GL) - 65pts
PIS (AC, GL) - 65pts
Infantry Platoon;
PCS (4x Melta, Chimera{ML, HB}) - 125pts
PIS (AC, GL) - 65pts
PIS (AC, GL) - 65pts
Veterans (3xPG, Chimera{ML, HB}) - 170pts

Fast Attack:
Scout Sentinel Squadron (3x Vanila Sentinels) - 105pts
Vendetta - 130pts
Vendetta - 130pts

Heavy Support:
Leman Russ Demolisher (HB) - 165pts
Leman Russ Battle Tank (HB) - 150pts
Manticore (HB) - 160pts


Total - 1845pts

The idea is to have a balanced all commers list with lots of options. I've tried to have 2-3 Units for dealing with each target typ and the psyker will use Telepathy because of the amazing synergy with the PBS.

All advice is welcome.

[Wyntonian]

So, correct me if I'm wrong, but a lower number is better for saves?

Does AP do anything if, say, you have AV 3+ and an AP of 2?

This seems kinda backwards compared to 3.5, which is to be expected I guess.

[Eldan]

Indeed it does!

3+ means if you roll a 3 or higher, the save is made. 4+ means four or higher. So the 3+ is better.

Similarly, AP 2 pierces everything 2+ or worse. AP 3 pierces everything 3+ or worse. So, AP 2 is better.

[Hootman]

So here are two sample army lists for 1850pts

...Wow, in 5th Edition, Primaris Psykers were kind of terrible, weren't they? No Psychic Defense, and generally weak powers on a Ld 9 model. Guess it's a good thing 6th came along and gave them the gift of real powers.

Anyways, about your lists--I feel you've made one important mistake. Your troops all appear to be of the Combine Squads type, but your Company Command Squad hasn't taken a Chimera (Command Vehicle is a great rule), nor have you taken any Vox's to make sure the Order come through. Anyone who sees you handing out Orders left and right is going to come gunning right for your Commanders--I know it's what I would do.

Other than that, your lists look alright. I'm not sure if the Veterans should be the ones with the Plasma, though--not when the Command Squad could mech up and go hunting with Feel No Pain to back them up if when the guns overheat. That does have the obvious disadvantage of putting your CCS closer to the action, though...

[Renegade Paladin]

Hello everyone! Long time lurkers first post.

A few months a go me and several friends decided to join a gaming group and get started with 40k. Last week my first batch of minies arrived and now I'm assembling my guardmen :smallbiggrin:
I really like the setting and enjoyed reading some of the fluff. As far as gaming goes I do lean a bit towards the powergamer mindset, and like to crunch the numbers and min-max as long as it fits within the frame I've set (backstory, theme, feel of the army/character).

So here are two sample army lists for 1850pts:

HQ:
CCS (LC, Standard, MoO) - 115pts
Primaris Psyker - 70pts

Elites:
Sniper Team [count as Ratlings] (6x Snipers) - 60pts
PBS (8x (un)Sanctioaned Psykers) - 100pts

Troops:
Infantry Platoon;
PCS (4x Flamer, Chimera{ML, HB}) - 105pts
PIS (AC, GL) - 65pts
PIS (AC, GL) - 65pts
Infantry Platoon;
PCS (4x Melta, Chimera{ML, HB}) - 125pts
PIS (AC, GL) - 65pts
PIS (AC, GL) - 65pts
Veterans (3xPG, Chimera{ML, HB}) - 170pts

Fast Attack:
Scout Sentinel Squadron (3x Vanila Sentinels) - 105pts
Vendetta - 130pts

Heavy Support:
Leman Russ Demolisher (LC) - 180pts
Leman Russ Battle Tank (HB, HB Sponsos) - 170pts
Manticore (HB) - 160pts

Fortification:
Aegis Line with Quadgun - 100pts

Total - 1850pts

HQ:
CCS (LC, Standard, MoO) - 115pts
Primaris Psyker - 70pts

Elites:
Sniper Team [count as Ratlings] (6x Snipers) - 60pts
PBS (8x (un)Sanctioned Psykers) - 100pts

Troops:
Infantry Platoon;
PCS (4x Flamer, Chimera{ML, HB}) - 105pts
PIS (AC, GL) - 65pts
PIS (AC, GL) - 65pts
Infantry Platoon;
PCS (4x Melta, Chimera{ML, HB}) - 125pts
PIS (AC, GL) - 65pts
PIS (AC, GL) - 65pts
Veterans (3xPG, Chimera{ML, HB}) - 170pts

Fast Attack:
Scout Sentinel Squadron (3x Vanila Sentinels) - 105pts
Vendetta - 130pts
Vendetta - 130pts

Heavy Support:
Leman Russ Demolisher (HB) - 165pts
Leman Russ Battle Tank (HB) - 150pts
Manticore (HB) - 160pts


Total - 1845pts

The idea is to have a balanced all commers list with lots of options. I've tried to have 2-3 Units for dealing with each target typ and the psyker will use Telepathy because of the amazing synergy with the PBS.

All advice is welcome.
The Master of Ordnance will never hit anything. Ever. Just so you know that.

[Lowkey Lyesmith]

Hmm, question regarding IG and their command squads. Would bodyguards be worth considering now? I'm thinking that the fact that they automaticaly take the hits for the Officer make them actually worth having.

[Cheesegear]

Cheesegear, do you think it's worth it to give anti-armor duty to your Plague Marines with 2 meltaguns, or do you think it would be better to give it to longer range options? I'm thinking of this in the context of a mostly Plague Marine list.

The issue with Chaos Marines is that they don't have long-range anti-tank. The only decent set of Lascannons that you've got are Obliterators (and they're not good, see later). Everything else is Melta. That's why Stormravens make Chaos super-sad.

If you're going with 'mostly Nurgle', your anti-tank options are Deep Striking Terminators, which means Plague Marines in Rhinos driving forwards with an Icon, and if they're forwards then you'll want Meltaguns. Then your other choices are unmarked units of Bikes or Raptors (they don't suck! Yay!).

The only 'long-range' anti-tank Chaos have worth talking about are Havocs. with Autocannons. But fail completely when someone puts a pair of Land Raiders on the table - which is where the Melta comes in.


Hmm, question regarding IG and their command squads. Would bodyguards be worth considering now?

What do you mean 'now'? They've always been worth taking.

[HoldTheLine31]

I'm actually planning to use the Infantry as single 10man squads and not blobs. With the changes to objectives, cover and focus fire/wound allocation in 6th, it seems to me that blobs will be very unwieldy and just as prone to fleeing as 10man units without a commissar. As such the only unit I'd want to reliably pass orders would be the CCS, and it can't issue orders to itself from a Chimera (not sure about that). On the other hand you're right about the Voxnetwork and the command Chimera to order combined units, but it'll have to be tested if combined or single units are better now.

On the Master of Ordnance, yes he's a gamble and it's been bothering me while. I do hope to increase his chances to hit by targeting tanks and using Bring it Down to let him reroll scatter, and hopping that he hits something (the new blast rules are a big help here), but he still feels iffy. The question is with what should I replace him if I decide to.
In List one if i drop the tank upgrades too i could get another AC/GL Infantry squad, or a Mortar HWS for 60pts (are the Mortars any good?), or get Marbo.
In List two I'll be left with 35pts, so maybe tank upgrades, extra psykers, extra snipers, some plasma on the infantry, demo charges/carapace for the vets, bodyguards for the CCS, seekers for the sentinels?

[Hawkfrost000]

So apparently Paladins are amazing now, what do you guys think of this:

Draigo 275

Librarian 245
Warding Stave
Might of Titan
Quicksilver

5 Paladins 350
1 w Psycannon and Halberd
1 w Psycannon and Sword
1 w Falchions and Incinerator
1 w Deamonhammer
1 w Psycannon and Master Crafted Sword

5 Paladins 350
1 w Psycannon and Halberd
1 w Psycannon and Sword
1 w Falchions and Incinerator
1 w Deamonhammer
1 w Psycannon and Master Crafted Sword

Stormraven Gunship 250
Multi Melta
Twin Linked Lascannon
Hurricane Bolters
Teleport Homer

1470

[HoldTheLine31]

Well I'm new to the hobby, so take my opinion with a grain of salt.
As far as i see it you're army will be really deadly and hard to kill, but will struggle with objective missions. Anything with more then 3 objectives (and missions can go to up to 6 or more, if I'm not mistaken) will be hard with just two units that can contest or score. However that may not matter if you can table your opponent.

[Cheesegear]

So apparently Paladins are amazing now, what do you guys think of this:

Long story short; Not good.
In 1500 points, you've got 12 models and a Flyer on the board. I really can't see that going too well. And anybody who brings along an Aegis Defense Line is going to rock your world.

[Squark]

With only 12 models on the board and a single flier, you're going to take pretty heavy casualties, simply by virtue of the fact that anything that is not an aegis defense line will be aimed at your paladins. 2 wounds and a 2+ armor save are a lot less impressive when everything your opponent has is coming at you. All it takes is 1 lucky krak missile and a paladin is gone, and even bolterfire will eventually bring them down. And Plasma or something like Jaws of the World Wolf? Lots and Lots of dead paladins.

I don't know Grey Knights well enough to know if you should be running more, cheeper paladin units, or if Draigowing simply is too pricy to work at even 1500 points.

[SynissterSyster]

I got a question. I know how much people been saying that Webway Portals are nerfed as you cannot assault from them but I have an idea. Say you put in some Hellions and Talos (or something that has an auto wound weapon). Get the auto wound guys out first then have the Hellions clean up? Not first tern stuff but something useful, maybe?

[Squark]

So, here's a potential "teaching list" intended to teach new players the basics of the game without introducing them to a lot of complicated rules like psychic powers or character shenanigans or the like.

Space Wolves
Wolf Lord -150 points
-Frost Blade, Belt of Russ

5 Grey Hunters -85 points
-Plasma gun
5 Grey Hunters -80 points
-Meltagun

Necrons
Overlord -145 points
-Phase Shifter, Warscythe

5 Immortals -85 points
5 Immortals -85 points

Total: 315 points each
Does anyone spot any glaring advantages on either side?

Also, 1000 point Space Wolves list

HQ: Rune Priest -120 points
-Saga of the Beastslayer, Chooser of the Slain
--Living Lightning, Jaws of the World Wolf

Elites: 3 Wolf Guard -129 points
-Powerfist and Combi-melta
-Powerfist and Combi-plasma
-Powerfist and Combi-flamer

Troops: 10 Grey Hunters -180 points
-2 Meltaguns, Mark of the Wulfen, Wolf Standard
5 Grey Hunters -85 points
-Plasma gun
5 Grey Hunters -85 points
-Plasma gun

Fast Attack: 3 Thunderwolf Cavalry -205 points
-Storm Shield, Power fist

Heavy Suport: 6 Long Fangs -140 points
-5 Missile Launchers.
Total: 934 points.

So, that leaves me with 66 points left. Possible additions;

-1 more thunderwolf and a grey hunter in one of the small groups
-2 Grey Hunters in each of the small groups, and a wolf tail talisman on the rune priest
-3 More Long fangs, and split the two packs into a group of 5 and a group of 4.

EDIT: One amusing, if stupid, thing I noticed about specialist weapons; The weapon only cares if your other weapon has specialist weapon, not what it is, so you can use a Wolf Claw and a Thunder Hammer together to get an extra attack with either weapon. Granted, that's obviously not the intent, but there you go.

[SynissterSyster]

I am going to take a stab at Squarks list. Other then a five point difference between the two armies I would say the Wolves have a ranged advantage while the Necron's dont. Sadly I don't have a rule book with me but that is my guess.

[DaedalusMkV]

So, here's a potential "teaching list" intended to teach new players the basics of the game without introducing them to a lot of complicated rules like psychic powers or character shenanigans or the like.

Space Wolves
Wolf Lord -150 points
-Frost Blade, Belt of Russ

5 Grey Hunters -85 points
-Plasma gun
5 Grey Hunters -85 points
-Meltagun

Necrons
Overlord -145 points
-Phase Shifter, Warscythe

5 Immortals -85 points
5 Immortals -85 points

Total: 315 points each
Does anyone spot any glaring advantages on either side?

Are the Immortals running Tesla or Gauss? Tesla Immortals will pretty much result in the game going to the 'Crons five times in six because ten Tesla guns are going to handily outperform eight Bolters and a Plasma gun, and it'll take forever for the Marines to catch up to the fleeing Immortals. Gauss will probably result in the 'Crons losing, since they'll be outperformed both at range and in melee. That said, new players can be encouraged to use whatever tactics you want them to to make the intro interesting. As long as the 'Crons have Tesla and don't run away, it should be all good. It might be nice to throw a cheap speedy thing on either side to demonstrate different movement rules as well; say some Swiftclaws for the Marines and a Wraith or Destroyer for the 'Crons?

[Zorg]

I got a question. I know how much people been saying that Webway Portals are nerfed as you cannot assault from them but I have an idea. Say you put in some Hellions and Talos (or something that has an auto wound weapon). Get the auto wound guys out first then have the Hellions clean up? Not first tern stuff but something useful, maybe?

I've been thinking of Reavers with their giant turbo-boost move enabling them to bladevane stuff and swing back around into cover would be a viable use of a portal. Not super-competative, but a good use.

Also I think night shields are more useful with pre-measuring allowing for better positioning as well as the change to night fighting.

[Maquise]

Alright, now I'm seriously thinking that Thousand Sons are my favorite army. Not that I'm in any position to do anything about it in the near future, but still.


I love their color scheme.
They have ridiculously cool models.
Their fluff really sticks with me.


My question is, what is it like to actually play them?

[Gauntlet]

I'm thinking of putting an army together for a tournament in a few months. It's new edition 40K with these caveats:
-1800 Points
-No Fortifications
-No Allies
-I'm also pretty sure that Missile Launchers will be able to use Flakk Missiles (though I need to get clarification on this)

With this in mind, I'm thinking of running the following pile of Wolves:

HQ

Njal Stormcaller 270
Terminator Armour

Elites
5 Wolf Guard 420
Arjac Rockfist
Terminator Armour, Combi-Melta
Terminator Armour, Wolf Claw x2
Terminator Armour, Storm Shield
Terminator Armour, Assault Cannon
Drop Pod

Troops
10 Grey Hunters 160
Plasmagun x2

10 Grey Hunters 160
Plasmagun x2

10 Grey Hunters 190
Meltagun x2
Rhino

10 Grey Hunters 190
Meltagun x2
Rhino

Fast Attack
Land Speeder 60
Heavy Flamer x2

Heavy Support
Long Fangs 115
4x Missile Launcher

Long Fangs 115
4x Missile Launcher

Long Fangs 115
4x Missile Launcher

----
1795 Points

I'm not sure what to do with the last 65 points. In this list I took a Land Speeder (mainly for the mission where FA becomes scoring units) but I am thinking of dropping it for a Lone Wolf or cutting down somewhere else for a Rune Priest.
The assault cannon wolf guard would run with the Plasma foot sloggers, with the remaining 4 drop podding in with Njal on some poor unsuspecting battle line. The Storm Shield can tank most of the AP2 shots, and once the Combi-Meltagun has been used he can be an ablative wound for weaker fire.

I do feel I should have found space for Thunderwolves somewhere, really.

[Cheesegear]

My question is, what is it like to actually play them?

Okay. Kind of. There are better choices.

Slow and Purposeful kind of really sucks since with AP3 Boltguns, firing on Overwatch is exactly what Thousand Sons really want to be doing. However, if you can manage it, firing Rapid Fire Boltguns and then charging is kind of good. Focus Fire when you can do it also means you'll be killing models straight up. Keep in mind that most Cover will mitigate AP3 making it nowhere near as good as it should be. And AGLs and Techmarines/Lysander/TfCs and/or Stealth completely negates AP3.

Plague Marines cost the same points, don't pay the premium for a Sorcerer and are T5 and take two saves 3+/5+FNP, instead of the one save 3+/4++. And Cover Saves make entire units of Invulnerables pretty pointless anyway. And Plague Marines can take Melta and Plasmaguns.

Ideally you only play Thousand Sons (as opposed to Chaos Marines with the Mark of Tzeentch) when you want to spam Sorcerers. Buy them Bolt of Change and then make rolls on the Telepathy table and that's about all you can really do.

Allies; Fateweaver. Fateweaver makes Thousand Sons better than Plague Marines. But then why don't you take Epidemius and make Plague Marines better than Thousand Sons?

Related Topic; Chaos Space Marine Icons don't actually help Chaos Daemons. And, frankly if you're going to try broken stuff like Fateweaver/Epidemius then most people are going to force the issue.

But, pretty much everything in this post is likely to change in a few months.

[TooManySecrets]

Related Topic; Chaos Space Marine Icons don't actually help Chaos Daemons. And, frankly if you're going to try broken stuff like Fateweaver/Epidemius then most people are going to force the issue.

But, pretty much everything in this post is likely to change in a few months.

CSM Codex confirmed, or just reliable rumors? Or are you referring to something else?

[HoldTheLine31]

What's everyone's opinion on Psychic Defence? Is the 6+ save enough? And What about countering blessings?

As I see it the only way to deal with Psykers (apart from blowing them up) is either an allied Rune Priest or a Farseer (unless your army is SW or Eldar in the first place).

The Priest with some Grey Hunters, doesn't really have any downsides apart from 24" range and maybe the cost if you go heavy on the upgrades.

The Farseer with Runes of Warding and Doom and 5DA would cost 155pts, and provide far superior protection, but unless you're DE or Tau, will screw your own Psyker. That wouldn't be a problem if the army does not have Psykers in the first place. Also the small DA unit with the Farseer seem a lot easier to kill then a Rune Priest in a Grey Hunter pack, however the Seer can just hide out of LoS and still provide all the benefits.

So what do you think, is Psychic Defence really needed, or is it better to just bring more guns and bodies to the table? And does the Farseer justify not using your own Psykers with his low cost, great protection and some marginal utility of the DA unit and his powers (I've chosen Doom in the example. because Eldar blessings only work on Eldar and only Battle Brothers can buffed by each others powers from the Divination Lore), or is the somewhat costly SW powerhouse the superior choice?

[Cheesegear]

So what do you think, is Psychic Defence really needed, or is it better to just bring more guns and bodies to the table?

Psychic Defense is needed. Because Psychic Powers are by far one of the most powerful tools in the games and anything that can help you shut that down should be taken. Especially against Divination and Telepathy. The problem is, that most PD is rubbish except for Wolves and Eldar, but that doesn't actually change the fact that you still any help you can get. Not to mention that nearly all Psychic Defense comes packaged with the ability to use Powers of your own.

[HoldTheLine31]

You're right Cheesegear, there are some stupidly powerful spells and combos to be found (Weaken Resolve and Psychic Scream wiping entire squads and instantly killing MC in a single blast, or a Swarmlord with +d3 S/I/A/T and eternal warrior and lots of others).
The more I think the better the Farseer becomes, even as an option for desperate/convenient allies:
1. By far the best PD.
2. Can be a cheep if you want just the PD and are low on points.
3. Even if you can't use Divination and Eldar buffs there's always Doom or you can really screw with your opponent by picking some Telepathy powers for a low cost.
4. By far the most resistant to Perils (Ghosthelm)

[Zorg]

And speaking of allies, Forge World released a brief update to cover how thier army lists can ally with each other (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/a/allies.pdf).
It is rather sensibly done, so you can have a mad list combining the Dread Mod with regular Orks or Corsairs and (Dark) Eldar together working properly.

The lists themselves still need a good FAQing, but then again, who doesn't? hur hur hur.

[bluntpencil]

And speaking of allies, Forge World released a brief update to cover how thier army lists can ally with each other (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/a/allies.pdf).
It is rather sensibly done, so you can have a mad list combining the Dread Mod with regular Orks or Corsairs and (Dark) Eldar together working properly.

The lists themselves still need a good FAQing, but then again, who doesn't? hur hur hur.

Tyrant's Legion should allow Blood Angels (Lamenters), but apart from that, it's good.

[Hootman]

:smallbiggrin: Oh boy, Orks + Dread Mob! Now I can take EVEN MORE GROT TANKS.

...

I just have to build another 20 or 30 of the pesky little things...

And am I the only one who noticed that Deffkoptas in a Dreadmob get Buzzsaws for only 40% of what you pay in Codex: Orks? Goodness, that might make the darn things affordable.

[Zorg]

And here are the psyker updates. (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/p/Psykers.pdf)

Agree with you on the Blood Angels there Bluntpencil.

[lord_khaine]

And here are the psyker updates.

Wow, with those changes the Wraithseer just might become worth taking, It is going to be an expensive choice, but T8, W4, a 3+ /5++ save followed by a 4+ FNP can take a lot of punishment.

[MachineWraith]

So, how crippling would it be to NOT have flyers? I really want to put together a CSM list with Daemons as allies, but neither army gets any fliers (unless I missed something). Would an army like that just get destroyed by an army with flyers, or would it still work?

I'm leaning towards Nurgle, generally, if that helps.

[Hootman]

So, how crippling would it be to NOT have flyers?

Oh, not at all. Flyers aren't what you need to have--what you need is Flyer Defense. Scratch-build (or buy, if you're boring :smalltongue: ) an Aegis with a Quad Gun or something, and you'll be fine.

Personally, I'm just going to field a whole mess of Lootaboys and hide them behind an unarmed Aegis and just Go To Ground any time they're legitimately threatened (2+ Cover, whee!). Three dozen Snap Shots, all day erry day.


Speaking of dumb things, does Feel No Pain protect against Perils? If I am remembering correctly, PotW ignores all armor/invul saves, but FNP is specifically identified as "not a type of save". May just have to stick Zogwort in a unit of Nobz/Gitz with a Dok (too bad he can't get a bike...).

[Lowkey Lyesmith]

Just tried my first battle with 6:ed and got stomped good by guard. He brought 2 griffons, 1 basilisk and a vendetta to 750 points. Then we rolled Big guns never tire, ouch.

But anyway, I really like the new rules, my librarian was great fun and a Land speeder with two mult-meltas was even funnier (for one round, then it got blown up).

And I have to say, the Vendetta, just bloody amazing with the new rules. It's allways been good, but now, just amazing.

[Cheesegear]

Oh, not at all. Flyers aren't what you need to have--what you need is Flyer Defense. Scratch-build (or buy, if you're boring :smalltongue: ) an Aegis with a Quad Gun or something, and you'll be fine.


Nearly everyone is buying/making an Aegis Line, and the people who aren't are only doing so because their group doesn't allow Fortifications - which is totally a fair call, unlike disallowing Allies. But, for most of us who have been playing the game for a while who have a ton of bits, use different things for the Quad Gun.

For example, Eldar players can grab four Starcannons. Although, now, that you need AP2, Eldar might think about using Shuriken Cannons instead. You still use the rules from the book, but, Eldar players wont look like they're bringing along Autocannons. :smallamused:


While we're talking about Eldar; The new rules for Power Weapons specifically say WYSIWYG. If you're the kind of person who is able to and/or would do this; Start re-modelling/bitz-grabbing your Howling Banshees with Power Mauls.

Sure, you're only AP4. But now your 'useless' Banshees are S5, I10, Concussive. You don't really need to be AP2 because you'll be dealing so many wounds - add Doom.

[SynissterSyster]

Please forgive my ignorance but bits grabbing? You can scratch build models? I thought just about everything had to be GW approved unless you are really short on models then proxy.

[Lowkey Lyesmith]

Please forgive my ignorance but bits grabbing? You can scratch build models? I thought just about everything had to be GW approved unless you are really short on models then proxy.

As long as most of the model is built using GW bits it's not really a problem.

I built a Warboss for a friend using bits from a Venerable dredd, a normal Warboss and a Minataur from fantasy.

Worked like a charm :smallbiggrin:

[Tome]

Please forgive my ignorance but bits grabbing? You can scratch build models? I thought just about everything had to be GW approved unless you are really short on models then proxy.

Not even close.

GW stores will insist that your models be at least constructed from GW bits or made from scratch with plasticard and greenstuff. Independent retailers and gaming groups will usually let you use bits from anywhere.

[Eldan]

If you play at a GW store, they will frown on using models from other companies. I play at a non-GW stop anyway, so nothing is stopping us from using, say, Reaper minis. And I have scratch-built a thing or two.

[lord_khaine]

And im playing in a private gaming club, so we can use whatever we dam well want to as long as it looks fitting.


While we're talking about Eldar; The new rules for Power Weapons specifically say WYSIWYG. If you're the kind of person who is able to and/or would do this; Start re-modelling/bitz-grabbing your Howling Banshees with Power Mauls.

I think that would depend on how dominating terminators get, but personaly i think its a better idea to keep the AP3 swords for power armor, and just bladestorm terminators down like usual.

[Eldan]

Yeah. Banshees, specifically, are the Eldar hard counter to marines that come close enough to be fought.

[bluntpencil]

Mathhammer time!


Okay, Howling Banshees attacking with Power Swords vs Power Armour...

100 attacks (4+hit) = 50 hits

50 hits (5+ wounds) = 16.666.... wounds. No saves.

16.67% of attacks will cause an unsaved wound.

With power mauls!
100 attacks (4+ hit) = 50 hits

50 hits (3+ wounds) = 33.333.... wounds.

33.33333 wounds (3+ save) = 11.1111... unsaved wounds.

11.11% of attacks wound.


Okay, so against power armour, a slight drop in killing potential.


However, against everything else in the game it rises dramatically. This includes Terminator Armour, Carapace Armour and more.

Comparing to Terminator Armour...

100 attacks (4+hit) = 50 hits

Swords

50 hits (5+ wounds) = 16.666.... wounds.

16.6666.... wounds (2+saves) = 2.77777... unsaved wounds

2.78% of attacks will cause an unsaved wound with power swords.

Mauls

100 attacks (4+ hit) = 50 hits
50 hits (3+ wounds) = 33.333.... wounds.

33.3333 wounds (2+save) = 5.5555 unsaved wounds.

5.6% of attacks will wound with a power maul.

Comparing to Power Armoured bikes....

Swords

100 attacks=50 hits
50 hits= 8.3333 wounds, no saves.

8.33% of attacks wound.

Mauls

100 attacks= 50 hits
50 hits= 25 wounds
25 wounds (3+ saves)= 8.3333333 unsaved wounds.

8.33% of attacks wound vs. T5 3+ armour.



And, more dramatically... versus any Imperial Guard unit.
Swords

100 attacks= 66.6666.... hits
66.66666... hits= 33.33333.... wounds. No saves.

33.33% of attacks will wound against WS 3 Imperial Guard.

Mauls

100 attacks=66.66666.... hits
66.66666 hits= 55.55555..... wounds. No saves.

55.6% of attacks will wound vs. T3 Carapace Armour or worse.


Okay, basically, Howling Banshees are better with power mauls as opposed to power swords against everything except Toughness 4, 3+ Armour, and even then, it's only a small loss. This isn't even factoring in Concussive.

They are immensely better against lighter armour. They are equally good against T5 3+ Armour. They are a little better against Terminators.

However, there is the problem that anyone that models Eldar with blunt, bludgeoning weapons is a complete tool.

[bluntpencil]

Thinking about Power Mauls there...

If you were to play a Blood Angels successor, and use Dante as your own Chapter Master (counts as) and remodeled the Axe Mortalis as a mace or such, would that be considered cheesy?

Power Axes suck for Initiative 6 hero types. Power Mauls don't.

[Squark]

Thinking about Power Mauls there...

If you were to play a Blood Angels successor, and use Dante as your own Chapter Master (counts as) and remodeled the Axe Mortalis as a mace or such, would that be considered cheesy?

Power Axes suck for Initiative 6 hero types. Power Mauls don't.

This is something you'd have to ask your metagame about. But I at least would be asking you for some wine to go with that cheese. :smallbiggrin:

[lord_khaine]

Okay, basically, Howling Banshees are better with power mauls as opposed to power swords against everything except Toughness 4, 3+ Armour, and even then, it's only a small loss. This isn't even factoring in Concussive.

Funny then that T4 3+ is the most common type of enemy :smallamused:

Also, you didnt figure in the effect of Doom on the enemy, it swings things even more towards the swords in the case of killing marines.

[Cheesegear]

Funny then that T4 3+ is the most common type of enemy :smallamused:

Not anymore it isn't. Or it shouldn't be if your MG is halfway competitive.

Top armies;
Terminators - any kind. 2+ Armour. While not Terminators, Sanguinary Guard also get a word in here too.
Imperial Guard - T3, no armour.
Plague Marines - T5

However, even with Mauls, Howling Banshees are still not the best choice and you're still better off with 3 units of Fire Dragons, or 2 and a unit of Scorpions. If you really the Banshees, make use of the Allies rules and bring some Incubi instead.

[Eldan]

I barely ever see Termies. I see Marines with a unit of termies or two, sure. But mostly I see space wolves, tyranids, necrons, tau and eldar. So, I think if I played Banshees, I'd keep them with swords. I think pretty much everyone here agrees that Marines and IG are boring fluffwise. I think the common wording goes "We already play Fantasy, if we have to play 40k, let's play something that actually looks like SciFi."

[lord_khaine]

Not anymore it isn't. Or it shouldn't be if your MG is halfway competitive.

Even if the MG is competetive, then it still doesnt mean that everyone can afford to and want to get rid of all their old PA models, so no.


However, even with Mauls, Howling Banshees are still not the best choice and you're still better off with 3 units of Fire Dragons, or 2 and a unit of Scorpions. If you really the Banshees, make use of the Allies rules and bring some Incubi instead.

Yes, the transport nerf was a heavy hit to banshee's, so Scorpions or harlequins may be a better pick, depending on the metagame, but that wasnt what we were discussing.

Anyway, i just realised you made a mistake in the analysis of your mathhammer Bluntpencil, you find that swords have a 16.6% wound rate, while mauls have 11.1%.

You then call it a slight drop in killing potential, when your own numbers show that swords would kill around 50% more marines than mauls would :smallconfused:

[Maugan Ra]

Secondary objectives are quite interesting, I've found. Last game I played, every available capturing unit ended up dying, so the game rested on who could grab the secondary objectives in the time remaining. Bloody Land Raider got Linebreaker for my opponent, and he ended up killing my warlord through the use of the new wound allocation roles and my inability to pass a 2+ look out sir roll.

I could only get first blood, because the pain in the backside Chaos Terminator Lord just would not bloody die, no matter how often I shot it. So overall, something to bear in mind in games that look to run close to a draw.

[evisiron]

Secondary objectives are certainly interesting. I had a test game there were my 2+ save, T6 Necron Destroyer lord got killed my a vindicator shell and 3 bolters.

"Oh no, my lord died" suddenly gets combined with "...which gives my opponent First Blood and Warlord Slayer!" :smalleek:

[bluntpencil]

Even if the MG is competetive, then it still doesnt mean that everyone can afford to and want to get rid of all their old PA models, so no.



Yes, the transport nerf was a heavy hit to banshee's, so Scorpions or harlequins may be a better pick, depending on the metagame, but that wasnt what we were discussing.

Anyway, i just realised you made a mistake in the analysis of your mathhammer Bluntpencil, you find that swords have a 16.6% wound rate, while mauls have 11.1%.

You then call it a slight drop in killing potential, when your own numbers show that swords would kill around 50% more marines than mauls would :smallconfused:

That's a good point, but 150% of 'next to nothing' is still 'next to nothing'.

If you compare that to the 2.78% vs Termies and 5.6% vs Termies, that's 100% difference. Mauls kill double the Terminators. That's a big difference too.

Personally, I find the Guard comparison most interesting.

Yeah, swords are best against T4 3+ armour, but only by a little. Add in concussive... and it gets better. Doom, like you have said, could alter this, but Space Wolves might negate that.

Mauls are better against anything that isn't T4 3+ armour, by quite a bit.

I would say 'check yo metagame' but I won't.

I will, instead, say 'take swords and don't be an ass'.

[bluntpencil]

This is something you'd have to ask your metagame about. But I at least would be asking you for some wine to go with that cheese. :smallbiggrin:
Personally, last edition, I had contemplated converting Dante to wield a sword, since axes aren't too elegant looking.

Now I would feel guilty doing so.

[Gauntlet]

I'm thinking of putting an army together for a tournament in a few months. It's new edition 40K with these caveats:
-1800 Points
-No Fortifications
-No Allies
-I'm also pretty sure that Missile Launchers will be able to use Flakk Missiles (though I need to get clarification on this)

With this in mind, I'm thinking of running the following pile of Wolves:

HQ

Njal Stormcaller 270
Terminator Armour

Wolf Guard Battle Leader 170
Thunderwolf Mount, Frost Blade
Saga of the Beastslayer, 2 Fenrisian Wolves

Elites
5 Wolf Guard 420
Arjac Rockfist
Terminator Armour, Combi-Melta
Terminator Armour, Wolf Claw x2
Terminator Armour, Storm Shield
Terminator Armour, Assault Cannon
Drop Pod

Troops
10 Grey Hunters 160
Plasmagun x2

10 Grey Hunters 190
Meltagun x2
Rhino

10 Grey Hunters 190
Meltagun x2
Rhino

Fast Attack

Thunderwolf 55
Meltabombs

Heavy Support
Long Fangs 115
4x Missile Launcher

Long Fangs 115
4x Missile Launcher

Long Fangs 115
4x Missile Launcher

----
1795 Points

The assault cannon wolf guard would run with the Plasma foot sloggers, with the remaining 4 drop podding in with Njal on some poor unsuspecting battle line. The Storm Shield can tank most of the AP2 shots, and once the Combi-Meltagun has been used he can be an ablative wound for weaker fire.

Shuffled things up a little- dropped the second foot slogger unit for a Battle Leader and Thunderwolf with two Fenrisian Wolves to be the hammer to the terminators' anvil. I'm not sure whether it's worth it though, would be nice to have another troops choice, or some Wolf Scouts (woo making Acute Senses useful again!)
I would also really like to put a Master of Runes in there, I really like the look of the Divination discipline. I would really like to take a BA or DA Epistolary though, just so I can put Invisibility on a unit with Storm Caller up.

Still, any comments/criticisms? :smallamused:

[Squark]

HQ

Njal Stormcaller 270
Terminator Armour
Njal is too pricy, and not assault focused enough to run with the terminators. He belongs with Long Fangs

Wolf Guard Battle Leader 170
Thunderwolf Mount, Frost Blade
Saga of the Beastslayer, 2 Fenrisian Wolves
I'd replace him with a cheaper Rune Priest as a Divination user, or a second Living Lightning blaster with saga of the beastslayer
Elites
5 Wolf Guard 420
Arjac Rockfist
Terminator Armour, Combi-Melta
Terminator Armour, Wolf Claw x2
Terminator Armour, Storm Shield
Terminator Armour, Assault Cannon
Drop Pod
Not nearly enough combi-weapons, in my opinion. Also, I'd consider adding a few power armored guys and breaking them off into the melta-toting squads, because those rhinos are not going to last. And even if they do, a Combi-melta wolf guard is usually better than a second special weapon. And Njal has no business being with these guys.
Troops
10 Grey Hunters 160
Plasmagun x2
Fine, although I think you might want another squad
10 Grey Hunters 190
Meltagun x2
Rhino

10 Grey Hunters 190
Meltagun x2
Rhino
As a frontline squad, these need wolf guard, and probably some other upgrades to. With only 2 rhinos... Just ditch the rhinos all together. Odds are, they're going to be wrecked the first turn anyway.

Fast Attack

Thunderwolf 55
Meltabombs
Lone thunderwolf is not going to do a whole lot. I'd drop it for wolf guard elsewhere

Heavy Support
Long Fangs 115
4x Missile Launcher

Long Fangs 115
4x Missile Launcher

Long Fangs 115
4x Missile Launcher
Good, but you know you can go 5 missile launchers to a squad, right?
----
1795 Points

[Gauntlet]

Njal is too pricy, and not assault focused enough to run with the terminators. He belongs with Long Fangs

I was just liking the idea of dropping Njal's aura of 'you have no BS/can't move' on an anvil unit in the middle of the enemy army. I would have expected Njal's 24" range to make him pretty weak with Long Fangs, but maybe you're right. If I'm going to be running some drop Wolf Guard, what character (if any) would you suggest running instead?

I'd replace him with a cheaper Rune Priest as a Divination user, or a second Living Lightning blaster with saga of the beastslayer

Yeah, probably. I just didn't have anywhere to put he spare points I'd get for swapping him for a Rune Priest, and figured I might as well get someone more angry. I guess the footslogger squad could use some nice cover saves or something.

Not nearly enough combi-weapons, in my opinion. Also, I'd consider adding a few power armored guys and breaking them off into the melta-toting squads, because those rhinos are not going to last. And even if they do, a Combi-melta wolf guard is usually better than a second special weapon. And Njal has no business being with these guys.

Remember Arjac can throw his mallet for a melta-type shot that adds to my tank killing power. Mr. Storm shield should probably have a combi-melta at the very least.

Fine, although I think you might want another squad

Yeah, I had another before but cut it (and the landspeeder) for the Battle Leader and Thunderwolf. I think I'm used to slightly smaller games where 3 troops choices would be enough.


As a frontline squad, these need wolf guard, and probably some other upgrades to. With only 2 rhinos... Just ditch the rhinos all together. Odds are, they're going to be wrecked the first turn anyway.
If I ditch the rhinos, I don't think these squads are worth it. I would rather have Plasma if I have to foot slog, since getting into melta range won't happen early on (and by the time I get there late, either all the priority targets are down or I've probably already lost).

Lone thunderwolf is not going to do a whole lot. I'd drop it for wolf guard elsewhere
This guy was intended to join the Battle Leader so I could get a majority toughness of 5 in his unit, to help beef up the Fenrisian Wolves. If I cut the leader for a rune priest, I'll probably want this guy to go as well (or make the unit bigger). Maybe I should take some Typhoons for mobile fire support?

Good, but you know you can go 5 missile launchers to a squad, right?
I know, I cut the 6th guy from each of them when trying to do something with my spare points somewhere while I was shuffling things around. I'm not sure if that was the right decision to make.]

So... probably cutting the thunderwolf dudes and swapping the Rhino squads for more Plasma footsloggers gives me ~290 points to spend (or 130 if I buy a 4th plas-squad). If I add in a few more combi-weapons to the wolf guard and take the extra missile launchers for Long Fangs, I might be able to find enough points for a multi-melta landspeeder.. or I could drop Njal for a normal rune priest or two and reshuffle some more.

[lord_khaine]

That's a good point, but 150% of 'next to nothing' is still 'next to nothing'.

It is however not "next to nothing", but instead "just enough to win the combat" against most marine units.

And i while i agree on that mauls are better against terminators, then i dont think it matters due to the simple reason of them not being good enough to win the combat, and if thats the case, why bother then?



I would say 'check yo metagame' but I won't.

I will, instead, say 'take swords and don't be an ass'.

And i will then repeat my earlier comment of "take swords because they are the best choice anyway" :smalltongue:

Anyway, how does wound allocation with mixed AP values work now, like if fx you have rending attacks?

[Tychris1]

Does anyone have a good Noise marine list as a parent army for a Daemon army? I've been meaning to try out the whole ally system especially with battle brothers.

[Renegade Paladin]

So... probably cutting the thunderwolf dudes and swapping the Rhino squads for more Plasma footsloggers gives me ~290 points to spend (or 130 if I buy a 4th plas-squad). If I add in a few more combi-weapons to the wolf guard and take the extra missile launchers for Long Fangs, I might be able to find enough points for a multi-melta landspeeder.. or I could drop Njal for a normal rune priest or two and reshuffle some more.
The multi-melta land speeder will have the same problem as the Rhinos only more so because there's only one of it. And without melta or lascannons, how will you deal with AV14?

I have observed Grey Hunters with meltaguns on foot doing very well for themselves. The Rhinos can go away, but keep the meltaguns. And take Thunderwolves (because they win).

Alternatively:

Logan Grimnar

Wolf Guard
-Arjac
-Whatever else you want

Long Fangs
-4 multimeltas
-Drop pod

Stick Arjac and Logan with the Long Fangs in the drop pod, make them Relentless, blow up any two tanks of your choice turn 1, and kick the hell out of anything your opponent has that tries to do anything about it. A Rune Priest also in the drop pod is optional but very, very lulzy. :smalltongue:

[Gauntlet]

The multi-melta land speeder will have the same problem as the Rhinos only more so because there's only one of it. And without melta or lascannons, how will you deal with AV14?

I have observed Grey Hunters with meltaguns on foot doing very well for themselves. The Rhinos can go away, but keep the meltaguns. And take Thunderwolves (because they win).

Alternatively:

Logan Grimnar

Wolf Guard
-Arjac
-Whatever else you want

Long Fangs
-4 multimeltas
-Drop pod

Stick Arjac and Logan with the Long Fangs in the drop pod, make them Relentless, blow up any two tanks of your choice turn 1, and kick the hell out of anything your opponent has that tries to do anything about it. A Rune Priest also in the drop pod is optional but very, very lulzy. :smalltongue:

That.. actually looks pretty terrifying. I may have to try that. As far as dealing with AV14 goes, I would still have the combi-meltas and Arjac to pop tanks with from the drop pod. You're right that this might not be enough though.

I guess I should probably put a Rune Priest in with the pod, since putting my psyker defense right in the middle of the opposing army is exactly what I want to be doing. Only problem is I can't give him terminator armour without dropping some Long Fangs.

Potential changes:

Out:
Njal 270
Battle Leader 170
Wolf Guard (except Arjac) 232
Rhino/Melta Squads 380
Thunderwolf 55
---


In:
Logan 275
Rune Priest 100
Plasma Squads 320
Long Fang drop pod 35

Leaves me with 377 points to play with, some of which I would need to spend to bring Arjac's wolf guard up to 3+ members, and maybe take some Thunderwolves. If I was to take more Wolf Guard and distribute them among the two remaining Long Fangs missile squads, would those units then be able to capture objectives? I can't tell from the rulebook and can't find it in the FAQ :smallconfused:

[Renegade Paladin]

No. Wolf Guard split off to become squad leaders become the type of their new squad. So even without Logan a Wolf Guard who led a pack of Grey Hunters but had his squad shot away from him could still score, while even with Logan a Wolf Guard leading Long Fangs isn't scoring. Unless you're playing Big Guns Never Tire, in which case he is.

At any rate, the Loganbomb I described above is only half the tactic. BoSheck (resident Wolf player around here) uses it and a unit of Thunderwolves. The bomb comes down turn 1, the Thunderwolves bail it out turn 2. Otherwise, even with the combat prowess of Grimnar and the Rockfist, that squad is on a suicide run, and is very, very expensive for a throwaway unit. But that would require rebuilding your entire list.

[BoSheck]

I'm fairly confident in my wolf-fu, so let me offer my own take.

HQ



Njal Stormcaller 270
Terminator Armour
I'm a Njal fan. He offers a lot, and Wolves have a great many powers that are just useful all the time, but are devastating when they are (see: murderous hurricane, tempest's wrath). Cancelling enemy psychic tests on a 3+ is just brutal, also. Having said that, he's fairly flimsy, and not a front liner, but has some potential to destroy tacitcals, remember that well, I'd stick him with the plasma team, unless they're a sacrificial unit that mission.
Wolf Guard Battle Leader 170
Thunderwolf Mount, Frost Blade
Saga of the Beastslayer, 2 Fenrisian Wolves
I can't stress enough, if you guys are taking Thunderlords, Wolf Claws are the way to go. Gj on keeping the bullet soaking pups, I anticipate that even with the new wound allocation rules, they'll be even more useful. This guy needs a stormshield or he's not worth taking.
Elites
5 Wolf Guard 420
Arjac Rockfist
Terminator Armour, Combi-Melta
Terminator Armour, Wolf Claw x2
Terminator Armour, Storm Shield
Terminator Armour, Assault Cannon
Drop Pod
[/b] I don't usually tell people something is terrible, but double wolfclaw wolfguard is just too many points for what could be something way better. Space wolves spams terminators with special weapons in 5 man wolf guard squads very well--but the point cost for us to get proper assault termies is just backbreaking.[/b]
Troops
10 Grey Hunters 160
Plasmagun x2

10 Grey Hunters 190
Meltagun x2
Rhino

10 Grey Hunters 190
Meltagun x2
Rhino

Hey, Grey Hunters are still good. Moving along.
Fast Attack

Thunderwolf 55
Meltabombs
You need two, one with a storm shield, to make this work. The lord goes with them, and splits off to write his own saga, when the time for assault comes.

Heavy Support
Long Fangs 115
4x Missile Launcher

Long Fangs 115
4x Missile Launcher

Long Fangs 115
4x Missile Launcher

Yep. The backbone of any wolf army. If your T/O is giving you Flak Missiles...fliers will crumple before you. I look forward to the White Dwarf that lets us buy them so I don't have to retire my wolves, or buy them dirty, dirty allies.
----
1795 Points




So, while maintaining the core of your list, let us come up with something similar, but perhaps a bit more efficient


Njal Stormcaller 270
Terminator Armour

Elites
5 Wolf Guard 190
4x Combi-Melta/bolt pistol
Terminator Armour, Assault Cannon
Drop Pod

5 Wolf Guard 190
4x Combi-Melta/bolt pistol
Terminator Armour, Assault Cannon
Drop Pod

Troops
10 Grey Hunters 160
Plasmagun x2

10 Grey Hunters 160
Plasmagun x2

10 Grey Hunters 190
Meltagun x2
Rhino

10 Grey Hunters 190
Meltagun x2
Rhino

Heavy Support
Long Fangs 115
4x Missile Launcher

Long Fangs 115
4x Missile Launcher

Long Fangs 115
4x Missile Launcher



That list has 155 points left until 1850. If you want to bring a cavalry unit:
Iron Priest 155
Thunderwolf Mount
4 Cyberwolves
I feel like the list doesn't have enough barkbarks to make him work, but man he can do some pretty heavy lifting. Obviously he dedicates himself to tank hunting.

Otherwise, 10 more grey hunters with 2x meltaguns is pretty good, as is putting more units in drop pods and rhinos, so you can manage exactly what comes down when more easily. I could see upgrading a few of those combi-wolf guard to terminators for survivability, too, or buying another vanilla rune priest. The second pod could easily be plasma but...melta good. A lot of ways you could go with it, really. Just wanted to offer some suggestions without tearing your list apart.

[Gauntlet]

I like the look of that Iron Priest unit, also seems surprisingly cheap. Incidentally, the list I'm building is for 1800, not 1850 so I don't quite have enough for it.
I don't like running an even number of Drop pods. It seems like a waste. It's a real pity I can't give Long Fangs heavy flamers, because that would make for a very interesting unit to roll out of a drop pod with.
I am becoming increasingly tempted to just take double Plasma grey hunters everywhere. They seem like a unit that could deal with most everything, with the added bonus of being scoring, not particularly close range and a good wound battery for the wolf guard and characters.
It looks to me like an effective list would be just:
-Melta in a drop pod with character(s)
-Fill heavy support slots with long fangs
-Killy unit (thunderwolves I guess)
-Fill rest of points with Plasma hunters.

Anyone seeing any weaknesses I'm missing? I guess I need some psyker defense somewhere which limits my character choices.

[bluntpencil]

Space Wolves are pretty awesome at outflanking now, right?

Does that make Wolf Scouts better, if they're packing melta? Or is it not really worth it?

Do you give outflank to a unit you join, if you have it?

I can see Wolf Guard Battle Leaders (on Thunderwolves) with Saga of the Hunter doing damage here, but is it necessary?

[Cheesegear]

Does anyone have a good Noise marine list as a parent army for a Daemon army? I've been meaning to try out the whole ally system especially with battle brothers.

Well, the problem is that Slaanesh gains nothing from Daemons. But I'll have a go. The second problem; Noise Marines are stupidly expensive. The third problem is that you don't specify how many points you need and when you want Allies you're getting into higher points territory.

Sorcerer - 150 Points
Mark of Slaanesh, Lash of Slaanesh, Wings, Melta Bombs

Sorcerer - 150 Points
Mark of Slaanesh, Lash of Slaanesh, Wings, Melta Bombs

Noise Marines (x5) - 255 Points
Blast Master
Noise Champion; Power Weapon, Doom Siren
+ Rhino; Combi-Melta

Noise Marines (x5) - 255 Points
Blast Master
Noise Champion; Power Weapon, Doom Siren
+ Rhino; Combi-Melta

Noise Marines (x5) - 220 Points
Noise Champion; Power Weapon, Doom Siren, Melta Bombs
+ Rhino; Combi-Melta

Havocs (x5) - 155 Points
x4 Autocannons

Masque - 100 Points
Fiends of Slaanesh (x6) - 180 Points
Daemonettes (x5) - 70 Points

Daemon Prince - 215 Points
Flight, Mark of Slaanesh, Aura of Acquiescence
Pavane of Slaanesh, Breath of Chaos

Total: 1750 Points

Noise Marines are really expensive.
The goal is to put Masque on the board and rip things out of cover, and take them away from any manned emplacements (AAAEGIIIS). If somebody puts a couple of tanks with AV14 on the board, you're in trouble. If there's a Flyer on the board, shoot it with the Autocannon Havocs, if somebody puts multiple Fliers on the board...Chaos Marines are in trouble no matter what list you build.

[Voidhawk]

Good News Everyone!

Another new flyer has been created, (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/wnt/blog.jsp?pid=3100044-gws) and it's an Imperial one no less!

Just what the game needs...:smallsigh:

[Eldan]

Oh goodie! The Guard really needs more different kinds of hardware!

I'm still wondering how these things are supposed to fly. They look so... unfly-y-

[Cheesegear]

I'm still wondering how these things are supposed to fly. They look so... unfly-y-

Well, the big turbine-jets on the wings for starters. But, I really think that due to the size of the some of the IG Aircraft, more of them need the Vulture turbine.

As far as the Avenger itself and how it flies...I don't understand how down-sloping wings helps, I assume it would have something to do with turning speeds, but my aerodynamics knowledge is sketchy at best.

[Forrestfire]

Well, you strap a big enough engine to something... :smallwink:

I don't know much about aerodynamics, but I do know that when I build paper airplanes, angling the wings concave like that often made them fly further. Take from that what you will.

[Voidhawk]

Well, it could be worse. It could be the Space-potato. *shudder*

[Tychris1]

/facepalm Yeah I should have mentioned the points list. I would hope for 1,500 point list. And not entirely noise marine, just Slaanesh based, I'd prefer Noise Marines though. Your list is very good though and I plan on testing it out (Despite the angered words of my friend). Don't you need to take a troops choice for allies?

[Cheesegear]

Don't you need to take a troops choice for allies?

You mean the Daemonettes? :smallconfused:

I also occurs to me that should you choose to do so, chaining Pavanes and Lashes is pretty hilarious. You can move a unit halfway down the board should you choose to do so.

[Tychris1]

Urgh, They were all under the Masque so I just glossed them over as wargear and upgrades. heh.

[BoSheck]

I like the look of that Iron Priest unit, also seems surprisingly cheap. Incidentally, the list I'm building is for 1800, not 1850 so I don't quite have enough for it.
I don't like running an even number of Drop pods. It seems like a waste. It's a real pity I can't give Long Fangs heavy flamers, because that would make for a very interesting unit to roll out of a drop pod with.
I am becoming increasingly tempted to just take double Plasma grey hunters everywhere. They seem like a unit that could deal with most everything, with the added bonus of being scoring, not particularly close range and a good wound battery for the wolf guard and characters.
It looks to me like an effective list would be just:
-Melta in a drop pod with character(s)
-Fill heavy support slots with long fangs
-Killy unit (thunderwolves I guess)
-Fill rest of points with Plasma hunters.

Anyone seeing any weaknesses I'm missing? I guess I need some psyker defense somewhere which limits my character choices.

Yeah, Iron priest plus Cyberwolves (t5! 4+!) is pretty good.

Running two pods isn't too outlandish. You can dedicate one to the long fangs, or a GH unit, and then NOT start them in it. That lets you decide if your meltacide unit actually has something they want to suicide on, or wait until turn 2-3. You use the empty pod to make people rageface in their movement phase.

Sorry about the discrepancy in points. That original list I had should be like 55 short, which is easy enough to fill with wargear (like fists or something on the AC wolfguard). But whatever you do, you're going to want something to stop land raiders. Was just trying to preserve the general feel of your list.

Using shock trooper long fangs with a CC element, followed by a fast killy unit is usually my most effective wolf tactic. It takes a little learning to figure out just how big a bite you can take with certain units, but the initial disabling, followed by the close combat and long fang support is a very effective mesh.

[Bavarian itP]

Good News Everyone!

Another new flyer has been created, (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/wnt/blog.jsp?pid=3100044-gws) and it's an Imperial one no less!

Just what the game needs...:smallsigh:

"Avenger Bolt Cannon"?

How creative. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GAU-8_Avenger)

[Cheesegear]

How creative. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GAU-8_Avenger)

Funny thing is, the Avenger Bolt Cannon isn't mounted on the Imperial Guard Thunderbolt. :smallamused:

[Bavarian itP]

Funny thing is, the Avenger Bolt Cannon isn't mounted on the Imperial Guard Thunderbolt. :smallamused:

I said it was creative, didn't I :smalltongue:

[iyaerP]

Well, it could be worse. It could be the Space-potato. *shudder*

I really don't get why everyone hates on that thing. Due to the construction, it actually has a much better chance of being to hover and do VTOL than either of the guard aircraft. The only problem that the talon has is that the turbines are too far aft, so the front will fall forward, and Mr Space Marine pilot gets to fly around shooting only what is directly below him.

The "Space Potato" is clearly a wannabe cobra/apache hellicoptor gunship. Just like the new thing wants to be an A10. Yeah, they go overboard with it, but it is 40K. That is what they do.

[Zorg]

As far as the Avenger itself and how it flies...I don't understand how down-sloping wings helps, I assume it would have something to do with turning speeds, but my aerodynamics knowledge is sketchy at best.

The inverted gull wing is used to give a prop plane a higher ground clearance without needing long, breakable landing gear. This is most notable on the Vought F4U Corsair (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F4U_Corsair), which had one of the largest props of any US fighter and was designed to be carrier based.
It also allows the plane to carry a larger bomb load under the centreline and wing roots, such as the done on the JU-87 Stuka (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junkers_Ju_87).

Aerodynamically they're not that great, giving the plane a higher, harder stall speed.



Edit: From the BoLS lounge:


Just had a quick look while at open day. 150 pts - 2 las cannons , heavy stubber + avenger bolt cannon st6 ap3 heavy 7.CANNOT add punisher cannons but can Multi lasers , missile launchers or autocannons. Can have bombs as well as FW flyer upgrades.

[LeSwordfish]

All i can think from those pictures is "Dont rest that plane on the wings. That doesnt look a very solid connection. Those wings are going to come off."

[Voidhawk]

Okay, I'm at the end of my tether. I've been reading the Big Black Book back and forth for 2 weeks now, scanning chat on websites, and watching the GW site like a hawk for an FAQ. So I'm just going to come out and ask:

HOW THE HELL DO CHARIOTS WORK?!

It's been driving me completely nuts. I'd really like to use my Command Barge in games soon, but I would rather not have to pause the first time it assaults to discuss what it can and can't do. My main issues are:

1) Can models attacked by the command barge attack the barge itself, or only the rider?
2) If they can, do they strike Front Armour like a walker, or Rear Armour like normal vehicles?
3) Can it be locked in combat like a walker, or can it simply drive away like any other vehicle?

My current "working" opinion is 1) the barge can be attacked, 2) it's attacked at front armour, 3) it can be locked, but only if it's not a skimmer and the enemy can't fly. But then again I own one, so my opinion is liable to bias.

So, what do you guys think?

[The_Final_Stand]

Well, as an answer to question 3, it says that since it's a vehicle, it (and its rider) can't be locked in combat. (Fighting from a Chariot)

With regards to 1, it says that the crew of the chariot can't be targeted separately, implying that the chariot itself can be attacked. (Crew)

With 2, I'd guess that since it doesn't specify otherwise, the chariot still gets hit on the rear armour if it's being targeted. (Personal opinion)

[evisiron]

1) Can models attacked by the command barge attack the barge itself, or only the rider?
2) If they can, do they strike Front Armour like a walker, or Rear Armour like normal vehicles?
3) Can it be locked in combat like a walker, or can it simply drive away like any other vehicle?


I've been pondering the same thing, and reached the conclusion that until it's FAQ-ed all we can sensibly do is rigidly apply the transport vehicle rules.
So,
1. Nothing says the chariots stops being in base to base, so attackers can strike either of them. It would have been so easy for them to end the rider in base to base sentence with "...instead of the chariot" or "...in addition to the chariot". :smallsigh:

2. Rear armour until told otherwise.

3. It specifically says the chariot nor the rider are locked in combat.

The other big one is what happens if the chariot is destroyed before the rider attacks. The transport rules have embarked units deploy without becoming locked in combat, so this seems to be the logical way to go (no matter how ticked off my Necron Lord will be when tossed back out of combat before his initiative step).

[Sam cw]

First, context and somewhat long winded backstory:

So I recently found out that someone at my FLGS is selling his Grey Knights and I thought I'd take him up on it. Thing is, he said someone else has showed interest, so I may have some competition for them. I'm really only looking into GK as allies for my Tau, so I don't really need them all. Because of that, I'm hoping to be able to cut a deal with the other interested party to split the lot, where I just take the stuff I really want and let him buy the rest.

The units I want to get are two full squads of Strike Knights to provide an objective seizure and counter-assault element that Tau are sorely lacking in and a Stormraven to serve as an air superiority fighter and supplementary heavy AT. Oh, and a cheapo Inquisitor to fill the HQ slot (I already have a single GK Termie that I can use if I want a bigger HQ).

While the above stuff comes first, if its possible, I'd like to get enough other units to give me some flexibility in my allies options or try playing GKs as a small stand alone army. To that end, what would you recommend I look for to use as Elites and Heavy Support? Some Termies seem like a good idea for Elites, as I could use them as Paladins or Troop Termies and upgrade one of the Strike Knight Squads to something else (like Purifiers). I'm not so sure what to get for HS though.

My first plan before this came up was to build a "counts as" GK force out of Legos, and that's still plan B. I say this because Legos will probably work best with vehicles and especially big and blocky ones, so it would probably be best to get the actual models for other things.

[Hawkfrost000]

Draigo's Mighty Dozen Sixteen! Draft Two

Draigo 275

5 Paladins
MC Psycannon and Halbeard
Psycannon and Halbeard
2x Deamonhammer
Warding Stave
340


5 Paladins
MC Psycannon and Halbeard
Psycannon and Halbeard
2x Deamonhammer
Warding Stave
340


5 Paladins
MC Psycannon and Halbeard
Psycannon and Halbeard
2x Deamonhammer
Warding Stave
340

Stormraven
Twin Linked Multi-Melta
Twin Linked Lascannon
205

1500

2 squads and draigo deploy on the table, one squad says in the 'raven.

Thoughts?

DM

[iyaerP]

I get the feeling that a single plasma cannon will kill a significant portion of your army every turn. And that you simply don't have enough bodies to matter.

[Cheesegear]

2 squads and draigo deploy on the table, one squad says in the 'raven.

Flyers are rubbish as Transports. The Stormraven is now a gunboat. Not the same Transport that it used to be.

If you're using the Stormraven as a Gunboat, it will be incredibly difficult to shoot down, and terrible as a transport because all the Paladins will die when the 'Raven dies. Due to the way 'Flyer Defense' works, the only good way to use a Flyer is as a Flyer.

If you're using the 'Raven in Hover mode, it will still be a rubbish transport (*grumble, grumble, 6" move, grumble, grumble*), but when it does get shot down - and it will - your Paladins inside don't go up in smoke.

Yes, you were totally correct, Paladins are really good. But, Draigowing/All-Paladins is not good. It's too expensive, and Stormravens don't work like they're supposed to - but neither do Vendettas, but then they never did.

Grey Knight Strengths;
Purifiers
Strike Knights
Purgation Squads

The way to beat Flyers with Grey Knights is to spam Psycannons (like you weren't doing that already?), and grab Divination, and just take the Primaris Power.

Paying ~350 points for 10 Wounds sounds good, except they've only got the combat capability of 5 models. And now that Heavy S8+ weapons can be fired on the move (with a few easily-accessible ways to mitigate the downside), Paladin-Only armies take it in the face.

Long story short, Draigowing is a 5th Edition army.

[Hootman]

Woo! First full game of 6th Edition today, and it was pretty fantastic for me.

3000 points, Orks vs Nids, both of us used 2 FOC's and no Allies (obviously, Nids can't), and I only brought one Aegis that, because of the random nature of our deployment (custom scenario for the event), I managed to get one unit behind on the first turn, and never needed again.

Throughout all of the deployment phase, things were looking grim. It was a deployment type invented for Fantasy, so everything was in charge range of something in a way that makes both Orks AND Nids broken as all get-out. My friend had gotten the roll for first turn, and it looked like I was going to lose at least half my units before I even got to play.....

...And then I stole the Initiative, and almost wiped him off the board on Turn 1. It was a glorious battle, though I did feel bad about stomping him so thoroughly RIGHT up until Turn 3, when the Doom of Malantai came down and vaporized a squad of Lootas AND my previously unwoundable Nob Bikerz. Between that blast and the Swarmlord just not giving ANY damns, I had to go to Turn 5 to finally bring him down.

Summary:
1) Nob Bikerz are probably exactly as powerful as I want them to be, but can't deal with S10 Large Blasts, so Vindicators (and Annialator Barges, maybe??) will ruin their day forever.

2) Biomancy Powers, specifically Iron Arm, are INSANELY GOOD on the biggest Tyranid Gribblies. S9 T9 Swarmlord was almost untouchable (only 2+ Poison Zogwort could get anything on him until I brought in TWO Warbosses). It took until my bro's luck rolling 3's ran out, and Swarmy came down to the more reasonable T7.

3) Lootas in groups of about 10 models are pretty awesome.

4) My Biker Boss ALMOST flattened the Swarmlord at the cost of his own life, but the Swarmlord had JUST used Life Leech to regain a wound (which he stole from my Boss, the jerk), and the monster survived. So...I poured my Lootas into him until he fell over.

5) Shoota Boyz are still amazing. That one Rokkit Boy who keeps Instagibbing the Doom of Malantai needs a name, or something. Thinking of putting "DOOM OF DOOM *happy ork face* " on the sides of his rokkit.

[Cheesegear]

1) Nob Bikerz are probably exactly as powerful as I want them to be, but can't deal with S10 Large Blasts, so Vindicators (and Annialator Barges, maybe??) will ruin their day forever.

Neither can a lot of things. So you're not alone there. :smallamused: Did you use the 'Unit full of Characters' trick?


Biomancy Powers, specifically Iron Arm, are INSANELY GOOD on the biggest Tyranid Gribblies. S9 T9 Swarmlord was almost untouchable (only 2+ Poison Zogwort could get anything on him until I brought in TWO Warbosses).

Orks have the most trouble dealing with that kind of thing since they don't have any reliable ranged weapons over S7, and S9+ is only found on a Warboss which means Assaulting Swarmlord which is kind of exactly what he wants you to do.

Did you bring any of the Ork Flyers? Those things can be brutal - especially against 'Nids.

[Hootman]

Neither can a lot of things. So you're not alone there. :smallamused: Did you use the 'Unit full of Characters' trick?
I...didn't even think of that. Would that even work on "S10 Instant Death, deal with it"? I was under the impression that, to abuse Look Out Sir, you had to be able to survive the shots you were soaking.


Did you bring any of the Ork Flyers? Those things can be brutal - especially against 'Nids.

Unfortunately, I didn't end up having the inspiration to scratchbuild one of those this week. Maybe another time.

[Cheesegear]

I...didn't even think of that. Would that even work on "S10 Instant Death, deal with it"?

It works on anything that isn't a Challenge. Are you, at any point allocating wounds to Characters? Savable or not? Then you can roll for Look Out. And then roll for cover saves because you're Bikers. You at least got that part, right? You always get your cover saves.

[Provengreil]

It works on anything that isn't a Challenge. Are you, at any point allocating wounds to Characters? Savable or not? Then you can roll for Look Out. And then roll for cover saves because you're Bikers. You at least got that part, right? You always get your cover saves.

question on that (finally got my rulebook: hooray!). my reading of the rules suggests that if you wanted to try that, you'd have to do it wound by wound. to make this easy to work with for both of us(in case i'm misunderstanding something), i'll put it into a gameplay example.

the space wolves are fighting the chaos space marines. chaos uses lash to group up some wolf guards into a big ball, then drops a demolisher template on them and scores ten wounds. for the purposes of this example, none have cover saves or invulnerables because lash is great and this particular batch was bought a bit cheaply. in other words, no saves whatsoever.

now, the rules say to allocate one wound to the closest model, taking his save(ie, none), and remove it if he dies. then you continue with the next closest, and so on.

look out, sir triggers when the wound is allocated. the wound transfers, is resolved on the intervening model instead, and then the resolution continues. in other words, one wolf guard from the back died, but there are still 9 unsaveable wounds, and 9 wolf guard, so they're all gone, right?

or am I misunderstanding the book and/or what you're saying?

[DaedalusMkV]

Provengreil:

By my reading of the rules, you're on the right track but not quite right. For units without mixed saving throws, you allocate wounds one-at-a-time after taking any Saves you might have. In effect, unlike in 5th edition, when you don't have mixed saves you allocate unsaved wounds rather than doing it before saves, but as you pointed out you do it one at a time. The Wolf Guard still all die, because you Look Out Sir, either pass or fail, then whoever takes the Wound dies and you move onto allocating the next wound. At least, that's how I read it. I think all this "Look Out Sir all the wounds onto one model" stuff is the result of getting the new Wound Allocation rules and the 5th edition ones we're all used to mixed together and assuming that all wounds are allocated at the same time, when that does not appear to be the case.

[The_Final_Stand]

My interpretation of Wound Allocation Shenanigans was that it was used with multi-wound models. The rules say that you must remove whole models where possible, but with Wound Allocation Shenanigans(TM) you can place 1 wound on each of your Nobz/Paladins/Unit of multi-wound models before having to remove anyone, allowing you to have taken 5 wounds but still fight at full effectiveness, while without them you would have lost 2 models and have 1 left on a third (assuming 2 wound models).

[Tehnar]

Wait, you can allocate unsaved wounds?

So if a warboss in a 2+ AS gets hit and fails his armor save, you can allocate that wound to one of the boyz in his unit on a 2+?

EDIT: No, you can LOS unsaved wounds only if all members of a unit have the same save.

[Squark]

Wait, you can allocate unsaved wounds?

So if a warboss in a 2+ AS gets hit and fails his armor save, you can allocate that wound to one of the boyz in his unit on a 2+?

EDIT: No, you can LOS unsaved wounds only if all members of a unit have the same save.

Yeah, if you have a mixed group of saves, you roll Look Out, Sir! before the armor saves are resolved.

[Tychris1]

Which is made redundant since Meganobz and Warboss' can have the same armour save anyway. Now, if you LOS pm the warboss and fail, then allocate the wound onto a nob does the nob take a wound or can he make a save?

[DaedalusMkV]

Which is made redundant since Meganobz and Warboss' can have the same armour save anyway. Now, if you LOS pm the warboss and fail, then allocate the wound onto a nob does the nob take a wound or can he make a save?

If there is any difference between saves, you allocate wounds one at a time and take saves after allocating. In this case, if the Warboss is the closest model to the enemy and you take Wounds, you roll LOS first, if you choose to, then the save of whoever is taking it. If that's the Warboss, you do not get to LOS again. You just take it. If it's the nob, again, save then take it. No more LOS.

If they have the same Saves all around, then you roll all of your Saves at once, then allocate the unsaved wounds as usual. You can LOS these wounds, but you never get to try again.

So to answer your question, no. If you're rolling your saves before allocation (and thus Look Out Sir), you do not roll any saves after allocation. Ever. If you're rolling after allocation, you do not get to Look Out Sir after saves. It's not a very complicated system, really. If you think you've found a 'trick' other than multiwound model single-wound-on-each shenanegans, you're either overthinking it or just plain doing it wrong.

[Renegade Paladin]

Good News Everyone!

Another new flyer has been created, (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/wnt/blog.jsp?pid=3100044-gws) and it's an Imperial one no less!

Just what the game needs...:smallsigh:
Not that this is in any way a surprise, since its name is clearly visible in the picture of the Imperial Armour Aeronautica table of contents on the Forge World site and has been since the book was announced. :smalltongue: